Forum logs for 10 Sep 2018

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
mircea_popescu: esthlos : << "the" [01:30]
esthlos: mircea_popescu: thank you [06:58]
lobbesbot: esthlos: Sent 2 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, and 51 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> << again it's 'phuctor' , not 'phunctor' [06:58]
asciilifeform: esthlos: << was re ww1, not 2 [10:16]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, << supermicro bmc confirmed usg.porous. (there's a reason asciilifeform didn't plug'em in) [10:22]
mod6: mornin' [10:36]
BingoBoingo: Mornin [10:41]
deedbot: << Qntra - USG Talks Georgia Into Abducting And Extraditing Russian Man To Manhattan [10:42]
mircea_popescu: "we found that the BMC code responsible for processing and applying firmware updates does not perform cryptographic signature verification on the provided firmware image before accepting the update and committing it to non-volatile storage." [10:54]
mircea_popescu: they just wanted to. [10:54]
mircea_popescu: << right. [10:55]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 14:16 asciilifeform: esthlos: << was re ww1, not 2 [10:55]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in historical lulgemz, [10:58]
mircea_popescu: "i have no money, no job, and Bernie has been the biggest political influence in my life" [10:58]
mircea_popescu: oh, and in "comunismu-ntii te-ajuta, tac tac tac, si apoi te executa pac pac pac" lulz : let's open our hymn books at the roger casement page. first knighted for "exposing" "atrocities" in usg's enemies at the time (boers and whatnot), was then hanged (and declared a faggot) for proposing the germans help liberate his homeland from usg in ww1. [11:04]
mircea_popescu: it so totally pays to be one of these usgistani "investigative journalists"... [11:04]
mircea_popescu: (the whatnot above should probably be more explicit. let's say instead boers, belgians and whatnot) [11:04]
asciilifeform: << note that if you plug the thing into net, anybody can push 'update' into it etc [11:14]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 14:54 mircea_popescu: "we found that the BMC code responsible for processing and applying firmware updates does not perform cryptographic signature verification on the provided firmware image before accepting the update and committing it to non-volatile storage." [11:14]
mircea_popescu: aha. [11:14]
mircea_popescu: deeply undermining usgistani "digital forensics" bs. [11:14]
asciilifeform: as if it had any substance to begin with [11:14]
asciilifeform: << see also [11:16]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-05 17:40 asciilifeform: if 'digital evidence'(tm)(r) supposedly 'found' on some zek's hdd can be 'evidence', why not this. [11:16]
asciilifeform: and for good measure [11:16]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 16:29 asciilifeform: His personal computer, federal prosecutors alleged, held more than 10,000 images and videos of such material, protected under three layers of passwords.' [11:16]
mircea_popescu: oh three layers!! [11:17]
mircea_popescu: roflmao. [11:17]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in "other successes of the failed female state", let's look at"he+deemed+it+necessary+to+absent+himself+temporarily." [11:17]
asciilifeform: 9000 layers, encrypted with kennedy's brain splat pattern! [11:17]
mircea_popescu: the phrase originates from a nephew of the romanian king, temporarily mbret of albania. he left during ww1, cuz actual people were doing things, exactly like a 19yo would leave the 14yos he was playing with when the cheerleaders show up. [11:18]
mircea_popescu: BUT! the internet consists of a vast plurality of... EXACT COPIES. [11:18]
mircea_popescu: why the fuck does the electricity need to be burned so the SAME EXACT fragment of cargo cult is repeated 50 times ? [11:19]
mircea_popescu: we're approximately in the position where across the land there's museums dedicated to maintaining COPIES of original pieces of airplane fuselage fallen on the island. [11:19]
mircea_popescu: truly this is a waste. turn off the web, it's weasting electricity bitcoin could put to better use. [11:20]
asciilifeform: this is unremarkable, cargo cults ~always turn up with copies, there's never enuff actual fuselage frags to go around [11:20]
mircea_popescu: but i mean, seriously, this particular fragment repeated verbatim dozens of times AND NOTHING ELSE ? [11:20]
mircea_popescu: wtf, why even have a "web" then. [11:20]
mircea_popescu: "William, Prince of Albania explained What is William, Prince of Albania? Explaining what we could find out about William, Prince of Albania. [Search domain]" << check out this gem. "what they could find". guess how the could works. [11:22]
asciilifeform: they could learn civilized langs, and climb down from trees. theoretically. [11:23]
asciilifeform: (not holding breath) [11:23]
mircea_popescu: this evidently works well enough for the "what does the news mean to me" crowd, seeing how the vapid "celebrities" that can't fucking spell (lulzy case in mp household recently, as girl tried to bring testimony of uma thurman re her being mistreated, only to see her charge collapse under heavy laugther at how WOMAN CAN NOT SPELL) have ~nothing to say anyway. getting a bunch of soccer players to dress up in suits and speak "th [11:27]
mircea_popescu: eir opinion" to the "interviewer" evidently taxes the system, there's no substance there so it's just as well that there's no substance demanded downstream. [11:27]
mircea_popescu: but i seriously do not see the need for a "web" to support this nonsense. they'd be much better served by a single pravda. [11:27]
asciilifeform: they already have single pravda [11:27]
asciilifeform: www mirrors are for fleadom-washing. [11:28]
mircea_popescu: in short : i am saying that "the problems" that naive holdouts from the 80s and 90s perceive confront "the open web" are chiefly in their imagination. the truth of the matter is that the same sort of scum that creaded the 1950s pravda in the first place are simply re-implementing it out of "web" nowadays. [11:28]
mircea_popescu: so no, it's not that "apple this" and "microsoft that" and "war on web" bla bla bla. if you permit internet access to inflate, you end up with a bulk of morons who STILL have no business on the web, once theyr'e there, just like they had no business on it before they were there. [11:29]
asciilifeform: pravdas are created on demand side. [11:29]
mircea_popescu: quite. [11:29]
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the word itself quite well connotes this. [11:29]
asciilifeform: ( how did mircea_popescu formulate it earlier, 'if yer this stupid, a usg will coalesce out of the vacuum for you' ) [11:29]
mircea_popescu: "why are you reading that crap ?" "because i wish to know how the news relates to me. spoiler : it doesn't." is verbatim contained in the slavic word's meaning. [11:30]
mircea_popescu: this is EXACTLY what pravda even is. it's not "truth" sole and alone like that. it's also "proofed" and "proved" and "certified" and so forth. [11:31]
asciilifeform: ssl-certified nonfaek news!1111 [11:31]
mircea_popescu: in being truth-which-is-self-evidently-true-and-not-open-to-doubt-on-any-possible-grounds, it then necessariyl is exactly "truth". [11:31]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 15:30 mircea_popescu: "why are you reading that crap ?" "because i wish to know how the news relates to me. spoiler : it doesn't." is verbatim contained in the slavic word's meaning. [11:31]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mod6 : imho we oughta add a 'we do not use bmc's' statement to the pizarro www . [11:34]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will add [11:35]
mircea_popescu: ^ [11:35]
asciilifeform: sanity is a very concrete thing. [11:35]
asciilifeform: e.g. 'no bmc', 'no always-on kvm', 'no microshit', 'no disassembly of colo'd boxen without owner's permission', 'go ahead and seal'em', etc [11:37]
asciilifeform: 'no social engineering, lose yer pgp key, lose yer acct' [11:38]
mircea_popescu: imo this should be written out in prose. [11:39]
asciilifeform: absolutely [11:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can you think of anything that oughta be in there, that aint mentioned above ? [11:39]
mircea_popescu: yes, but it's a decreasing scale of importance. every enumeration gotta stop sometime, and imo if one's not sold by those items adding more isn't the way to go. [11:40]
asciilifeform: aite [11:40]
mircea_popescu: moreover, there's nothing wrong with incomplete lists -- let the fellow come and ask, "oh, but what about Y! GOTCHA" only to not gotcha and therefore... [11:41]
asciilifeform: i admit that i was slightly surprised that there wasn't at least 1 casino etc d00d immediately banging on the door, of the only (afaik) isp that offers trng [11:42]
mircea_popescu: republic in being. very much the same mechanism as in "you don't need a buncha paperwork for pizarro, the forum can resolve disputes for you anyway" [11:42]
asciilifeform: ( then again iirc there was a mircea_popescu thread where explained that these dun use trng at all, as matter of principle ) [11:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the way that sort of thing works (it's "business" in a very limited and marginal sense) there's two kinds of marginals involved : "idea men" and "technical wizards". [11:44]
mircea_popescu: the former are a deeply atechnical sort, utterly incapable of very basic tasks such as "compare these two items". [11:44]
mircea_popescu: the latter are a deeply asocial sort, utterly incapable of very basic tasks such as "exist in the world without a farcical self-secreted notion that you know what's going on". [11:44]
mircea_popescu: as a result the former perceive the need but don't know how to proceed and the latter antiperceive the need and well, the blind leading the thirsty results in many salty snacks. [11:45]
asciilifeform: both types suffer from the sort of brain damage where they're readily taken in by pseudorepublic, where 'bulletproof hosting' served up on cisco and advertised with rounded corners www on rails etc [11:47]
asciilifeform: i'd go as far as to say that the principal enemy is the pseudorepublic, the gapons. [11:47]
mircea_popescu: well, yes. in the exact sense "nobody got shot for buying ibm" : as far as IM is concerned, the marketing copy suffices, he doesn't understand the workings anyway and moreover is well inhabituated to not expect to understand. [11:48]
mircea_popescu: and the TW is very vulnerable in that a lifetime spent in his own coffin swimming in the liners has produced in him this ability to self-bless. so he's going to do "some secret trick" and that'll make it all good. [11:48]
asciilifeform: typical exchange with these goes like, 'trng, what's that. tell me instead how is your tor onion hosting' [11:49]
mircea_popescu: because he can't rely on others, see ? the IM judges "well, there's concordance between the marketing copy on this webpage and what my TW is telling me" and the TW judges "well, nobod ycan be trusted anyway, here's my caesar cipher -- at least it is my own" [11:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly so, concordance seeker seeks concordance. "don't tell me about disparate objects, let's compare pairs that are well matched, item-description-and-review" [11:50]
asciilifeform: the 'TW' , 'educated' by decade of reddit and hn, is usually incapable of even considering 'tor is honeypot', it threatens 'depersonalization', sorta like pushing the hanging stool out from under feet. iirc naggum described this psychopathology at length. [11:50]
BingoBoingo: << First run at the prose [11:51]
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu had a piece where ' victim, thoroughly hollowed out, incapable of discussing subj , because he perceives that he ~is college~' or how did it go [11:51]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno if you recall this naphex character. possibly the best illustration of the concept republic's to date known (though he was doing iirc webcams or exchangesd or somesuch, not directly casinos. but -- just as marginal a cvasi-business) [11:51]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: loox pretty good, imho [11:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the name sounds familiar, but i think the bulk of him happened before asciilifeform tuned in [11:52]
mircea_popescu: but yes, very much that's the problem, "threat of depersonalization", specifically as "what do you mean republic laughs at me and my " [11:52]
BingoBoingo: Ah yes, Naphex welcomed Republic as customer of exchange he did for someone else. Then when he wanted to do HIS OWN camsite ran away to heathens [11:53]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is rather like if snail could speak, and was threatened with the loss of its shell, in the hot sun [11:53]
BingoBoingo: [11:54]
a111: Logged on 2015-12-09 03:27 assbot: Logged on 06-10-2015 19:36:34 mircea_popescu: <Naphex> << speaking of which, plox to give the guy's numbers a good shakedown, because im considering listing xotika this month. [11:54]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo : "Pizarro servers do not employ BMC, nor always-on KVM setups. We do not disassemble servers for any reason, so feel free to seal your boxes. Account management is done through RSA process, do not expect that you can sidestep loss of your key through social engineering. Burn Microshit, burn." ? [11:55]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in point of fact we do currently open boxes on explicit request of owner, to emplace FG [11:55]
mircea_popescu: in #Pizarro on Freenode. << link to webthing mqay help [11:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform take out "for any reason" then ? [11:56]
asciilifeform: hence BingoBoingo's formulation, 'without permission..' [11:56]
asciilifeform: we also swap disks for colo folx, if they supplied spares. [11:56]
asciilifeform: but in principle there is no reason why a colo customer cannot seal his disks, so long as he understands that he will have to come in person and swap'em then [11:57]
mircea_popescu: exactly. [11:57]
mircea_popescu: shorter is always better. [11:57]
mircea_popescu: understand : woman saying "i don't have sex" is a fine approximation of "i don't have sex [unless you convincingly ask me to]". meanwhile "i don't suck dicks without permission" connotes "well, you were passed out, i asked three times like the jews, in all directions, and as there was no answer i figured...welll... here's a dick..." [11:58]
BingoBoingo: Aite, updated. Going to walk a bit and read where the forum discussion goes before seeing what the least shitty webirc is [12:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik the clearest 'schoolbook' example of folx suckered in by pseudorepublic, were the weev people [12:08]
asciilifeform: 'bbut dns!111' [12:08]
mircea_popescu: o that guy, what was his name. yeah, here you go, absolutely fine IM-TW binome. that dood and weev. [12:09]
asciilifeform: 'we already have box that stays up, but how will you make our dns stay' [12:09]
asciilifeform: i dunno if i can correctly model the weevils writhing around in that skull, but imagine it went something like ' i was looking for new isp, not to change religions ' [12:11]
mircea_popescu: << item. [12:12]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-22 17:21 weevlos: 1) that's not my call to make, i am only one employee [12:12]
asciilifeform: aaa so ~indeed~ the lichen-fungus symbiont described by mircea_popescu [12:12]
mircea_popescu: << compare and contrast with >> [12:12]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-22 17:18 weevlos: trinque: we are a media publication. our power and capital comes from the number of visitors we have to the site. we aim to transform through culture. if normal people cannot visit our site we are not accomplishing our goal [12:12]
mircea_popescu: "their power and capital". because "never happened", especially if you wish it really hard to not have. [12:13]
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 22:29 mircea_popescu: in other lulz : femen, the "ukrainian" organisation is selling shit priced in dollars via, the columbus ohio us corp. [12:13]
asciilifeform: or, say, theo de raadt & bob beck pair [12:13]
asciilifeform: i puzzle over this q : where are the theos-without-becks hiding ? [12:14]
mircea_popescu: i suppose, in a degenerate case. my original example was "business" of a certain sort of "free man on free soil" outlook, like "online casino" or whatever other mlm-for-the-2010s things. [12:14]
asciilifeform: these are god's own pizarro customers. where are they. [12:14]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by all appearances the 'free men on free soil' folx are -stupid. without (to date) any detectable exceptions. [12:16]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 15:50 asciilifeform: the 'TW' , 'educated' by decade of reddit and hn, is usually incapable of even considering 'tor is honeypot', it threatens 'depersonalization', sorta like pushing the hanging stool out from under feet. iirc naggum described this psychopathology at length. [12:16]
mircea_popescu: but i guess that was coincidental, model works quite well i nthe general, including cases such as "TW looking for IM" like say [12:16]
mircea_popescu: very much like this, o'reilly-ers, or de raadt-whatever collective barnacle IM. [12:16]
asciilifeform: 'Thanks for the offer, but we already have methods of becoming a sponsor. I'd like to give that opportunity to up to 10 groups/companies/people through patreon. I hope you'll understand.' << lol!! [12:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have personally witnessed "could not estimate laptop charger chord is not going to reach" visually, from five yards away, had to do the actual manual comparison. so yes, that's my overarching point -- IM are universally stupid in a very strict sense, unfit to lvie in world. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see ? [12:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did this patient also reach for calculator to mul by 10 ? [12:18]
mircea_popescu: why, cuz born with 8 fingers so 72 * 33 = 3036 ? [12:19]
asciilifeform: i've personally witnessed 'mul by 10?! where is calculator' [12:19]
asciilifeform: aint even, imho, organic braindamage, but more typically 'learned helplessness' [12:19]
asciilifeform: sometimes -- curable [12:20]
mircea_popescu: "man who has walked with crutch all life -- cripple or not ?" "we'll have to see, won't we." [12:21]
Mocky: I've witnessed in my grown children to my horror and despair [12:21]
mircea_popescu: no hazel grows where you live huh ? [12:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the puzzler is, how to knock out the crutch. or persuade the sufferer to part with it on own power ? pizarro is isp, not psychiatric clinic [12:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and yet yes ? [12:23]
mircea_popescu: persuasion, like all education, will be sexual. [12:23]
asciilifeform: it wouldn't be any dismay to asciilifeform if we end up filling the rack with strictly mircea_popescu's successful patients, say. [12:24]
mircea_popescu: why ? [12:25]
asciilifeform: well, if the statement 'education must sexual' is indeed troo, then how else. [12:25]
asciilifeform: if there's another mircea_popescu somewhere, likewise curing, i do not presently know about it. [12:26]
asciilifeform: for all i know, the year's 1944, and there's that ~one~ dish of penicillum in existence. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: honestly, i would expect (if your is right, at any rate) that the republic will be mostly homosexual. [12:26]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-09 18:55 asciilifeform: if martians land tonight and in their pov 'sentient' means 'grasps at least first order logics' they will immediately barf, 'we found a race where 1 full battallion of sentient males for erry female , and whole buncha veggies ' [12:26]
asciilifeform: hey jurov ! [12:27]
mircea_popescu: oh, you got ~one~ of those too ? [12:27]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there are examples in the past, e.g. the orig nazi folx. (or the ww1 britain, from prev thread?) but these didn't end well. [12:27]
asciilifeform: worked out, i guess, for the greeks... for a spell [12:29]
mircea_popescu: no, actually, it worked out for the greeks for longer and with better results than any attempt at either paideia, "civilisation", "education" or anything else ever did. [12:30]
asciilifeform: prolly why the brits ended up cargoculting it, neh [12:31]
mircea_popescu: note that the prussian system (which is the upper node of what contemporary dork calls "school", and it is a SYSTEM, more complex than just that) is not even 2 centuries yet. [12:31]
asciilifeform: but evidently straw wings dun suffice for working plane [12:31]
mircea_popescu: and it did not yield much of anything at all. [12:31]
asciilifeform: i suspect that there's a missing term in this equation. e.g. turing did not, afaik, create any great maths folx with his (very active) cock [12:33]
mircea_popescu: because placed no demands. hence the [12:34]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 16:22 mircea_popescu: no hazel grows where you live huh ? [12:34]
asciilifeform: iirc he wasn't even able to keep his catamites from ratting him out in brit kangaroo court [12:34]
mircea_popescu: note that there's a problem here. that i, personally (and not explicably) manage somehow to be sexually attractive to women less than half my age as i was to women over twice my age has very little to do with anything and i wouldn't expect it systematizable. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: socrates, to take a modest example, would eminently NOT have been even remotely interesting to the kids in the kids' own terms. [12:38]
asciilifeform: 'phd assembly line' eh. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: there's a large component of rape involved in all education had the societal convention not been that "ye kids must suck an adult cock, nqa", the feeble interest socrates managed to induce even in his contemporaries would never have amounted to anything. [12:39]
asciilifeform: i.e. ? [12:39]
a111: Logged on 2014-11-26 00:46 asciilifeform: have to understand, jet fighter is not really a complete machine. it is a tentacle of the larger industrial slave empire which produced and employed it. [12:39]
asciilifeform: aka [12:40]
a111: Logged on 2018-04-24 16:28 asciilifeform: 'один в поле не воин'(tm)(r)(folk whizzdom) [12:40]
mircea_popescu: all knowledge is in the end unwilling. not "carnal", there is no such distinction, all knowledge is the exact same thing. and "unwilling" not in the sense of oppostion, but in the sense of defect. what exaclty is the maiden to know afore the fact about the knowledge you're about to impart on her, be it penis or math ? DEFINITIONALLY "not enough", right. [12:41]
asciilifeform: prussian, or if you prefer, sov, or jp, stick-beatin', does work to produce something like working minds [12:42]
asciilifeform: and evidently the greek meatstick is not overwhelmingly superior instrument, or would have taken over globe and we wouldn't even think to have the thread, unless i'm missing something [12:42]
asciilifeform: granted, the stick dun work if nobody wields it, just as turing's meat didn't [12:43]
mircea_popescu: so there we go. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: "because placed no demands." [12:45]
mircea_popescu: girl (or, i suppose, "bottom", to not exclude spuriously half the discussion) is more than happy to go out of her skin. if you ask her to. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: GOTTA ASK! [12:45]
asciilifeform: rright, but if in order to succeed , need mircea_popescu's psi powers, then we're in tight spot, unless [12:46]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 16:24 asciilifeform: it wouldn't be any dismay to asciilifeform if we end up filling the rack with strictly mircea_popescu's successful patients, say. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: what, it's magical now ? [12:46]
asciilifeform: in the strictly technical sense: yes [12:47]
mircea_popescu: that's ridiculous. [12:47]
asciilifeform: any effect that cannot be replicated, must be modelled as 'magical', unfortunately [12:47]
mircea_popescu: by these bright lights, most math is magic. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: including *10 [12:48]
asciilifeform: the very opposite of magical -- can be replicated even by dumb iron [12:48]
asciilifeform: on demand [12:48]
mircea_popescu: you know, iron only replicates it TO YOUR EYES. it doesn't do it in some sort of objective sense. it only puts the corect mul in rx if you know there's a rx to look for. [12:48]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the strugatsky brothers, before sinking into senile delirium, had a tale 'roadside picnic', where unknown aliens land and leave buncha rubbish behind, and immediately depart. the rubbish includes 'usefuls', such as 'eternal batteries', but also various deadlies, and plenty of things 'in between', and earthling culture is rearranged by it. [12:50]
asciilifeform: (largely not in the direction of betterment) [12:50]
asciilifeform: this is the model of 'magic' i was thinking of. [12:50]
asciilifeform: ( it's a pretty depressing yarn, the earthling attempts to make sense of the rubbish, sum to ~nuffin, and they fight over the scraps ) [12:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by the 'to your eyes' standard -- i dun think i own any artifacts that work to any other standard. even cement block -- we do not presently know precisely why cement hardens. [12:53]
mircea_popescu: so magic ? [12:54]
asciilifeform: even the screwdriver on yer desk -- yes it is hard, but the maker never knew why precisely ~that~ ratio of molybdenum is to be used. [12:55]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'magic', in this sense, is a phlogiston, a measure of ignorance. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: paracetamol, similarly "we don't know how the fuck this works" doesn't meet my definition of magic -- it seems quite certain it works in the usual way, if yet the intricacy unknown. [12:55]
asciilifeform: perhaps a diff term is appropriate [12:55]
mircea_popescu: yes but the implication of the word is that a special catalyst is needed, that's otherwordly. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: whereas ignorance only needs a correctly screwed dong to fix. [12:55]
asciilifeform: otherworldly << to riff on herr newton, 'i have no need of that hypothesis' [12:56]
mircea_popescu: well then don't say magic! say w/e, ignorance. [12:56]
asciilifeform: generally i say 'phd assemblyline' lol [12:56]
mircea_popescu: i do not perceive my time is strictly wasted with the phillies. unlike assembliline, assemblycunts are satisfying on a deeper level. [12:57]
* asciilifeform believes [12:57]
mircea_popescu: but yes, on occasion VERY fucking frustrating, "shit fuck piss cunt motherfucker, ima go garden instead!" [12:57]
asciilifeform: emphasis is on the 'phd', not 'assembly line'. faberge dead, no moar eggs [12:58]
mircea_popescu: possibru. [12:58]
asciilifeform: anyffing that can be replicated from recipe by illiterate red army conscripts, if you will -- 'technology'. the remainder -- 'phd assembly'. fortunately most useful items fall somewhere in the spectrum [12:59]
asciilifeform: even 'mircea_popescus' get replicated... albeit very, very slowly [12:59]
asciilifeform: ( in which vein, we're still waiting for, e.g., a replacement gauss... ) [13:00]
asciilifeform: in historicals: there is record where a 'let's nuke su nao before they can us' plan was given to truman, in '47. he did not sign, likely because it called for ~30 'fat men', whereas the entire stockpile was: 4. and grew at 3-4 / yr, assembly line stayed 'phf' for just under a decade, long enuff for ~parity. [13:05]
asciilifeform: kurchatov et al approached the 'assembly line' problem slightly smarter (can debate how much 'from cribbing' and how much -- not) , and did not need own decade. [13:07]
asciilifeform: lol s/phf/phd [13:07]
asciilifeform: ( not to belittle the timetravel adventures of phf !111 ) [13:08]
asciilifeform: to stalin's credit, he was not particularly frightened by the hiroshima show that was put on for him: understood that 'it was faberge egg' [13:09]
asciilifeform: like it or not, 'faberge egg' is not a good weapon. to which i'll add that imho trb only recently (with 'aggression') graduated from 'faberge' status, previously noad required regular babysitting, and i've found that this is no longer so [13:13]
asciilifeform: rifle did not become serious weapon in the field until barrels -- interchangeable. etc [13:15]
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine what sense does this make, to put iliteracy as the gatekeepeer to technology. [13:29]
mircea_popescu: what next, "eroticism is what ugly people experience" ? [13:29]
asciilifeform: can't replicate -- not tech. call it sumthingelse. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: technology, ipso nomine ut ipso facto excludes the illiterate. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: that is what technology is -- what's left once you exclude the monkey activities. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: now, as to the other horn, what is "to replicate" ? fire is a technology, no man has yet replicated any fire -- fire is necessarily, as per thermodynamic laws -- irreplicable. [13:37]
mircea_popescu: "oh but mp -- i don't mean absolute replica functional replica suffices" "then here's my recipe to replicate fire : slap girl's cheek middling hard. it'll turn some shade of reddish blue and give off heat for a time." [13:39]
mircea_popescu: "replication" is no basis literacy is the basis. that "replication" is the schnelling'd-upon point of ~expression~ of literate heuristics is fine and dandy. but it is no basis thereby. [13:40]
asciilifeform: it would be fascinating to see how truman would have answered to this. [13:42]
mircea_popescu: why him specifically ? [13:42]
asciilifeform: well in the cited episode he felt the sharp end of the problem stick [13:46]
asciilifeform: ( problem of 'replicable ? ' ) [13:46]
mircea_popescu: dun mean he understood anything of it. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: most feelers of the various rods comprehend ~nothing. [13:47]
mircea_popescu: (literacy, for the sake of propriety, remains what newman defined, "to see things as they are, to go right to the point, to disentangle a skein of thought, to detect what is sophistical, and to discard what is irrelevant." hence the literacy as basis for technology, to distinguish slapping from lighting) [13:47]
asciilifeform: it is generally not given to folx facing the sharp end of reactor rod, to entirely understand. [13:47]
asciilifeform: i'll add that a tech that can only be operated by the literate -- is replicable , for so long as literate folx are. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: which is all, without exception./ [13:49]
asciilifeform: which goes back to orig thread subj.. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: no technology survives as such the end of the literate that borne it. [13:49]
asciilifeform: aha. von kempelen, etc [13:50]
mircea_popescu: and the killer micro. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: and... other things [13:50]
asciilifeform: hell, the killer airplane.. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: "western civilisation", in a word. [13:50]
* asciilifeform recalls mircea_popescu's silk hats thread [13:53]
mircea_popescu: all of it, really, all of it is going away. wikipedia is like a manuscript copy of olde books, that are being "referenced". the references ever dim, and soon enough the whole world of literate english will be but a dream [13:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'literate english' is already a ~archaeologists-only affair. [13:54]
mircea_popescu: like the world of literate egyptian in [13:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so, it readily revives in selected young through simple exposure. [13:55]
mircea_popescu: it will be, in another generation or two maybe. today not yet. [13:55]
asciilifeform: possib [13:55]
mircea_popescu: perhaps ' that "replication" is the schnelling'd-upon point of ~expression~ of literate heuristics is fine and dandy' requires some explanation. the correct wot-process ("what of x?" "a claims so but i have not found the same -- go, try for yourself") was contracted in "failed to replicate x". [14:01]
mircea_popescu: the point, however, is not the "replication" itself but what it points to : "go, try for yourself". [14:02]
mircea_popescu: to then take this wot-process and try to mechanize it ("instead of going and trying by self as science ie REQUIRES of me i shall simply say "was not replicated") is doomed to the same failure all wot-mechanization attempts are in principle doomed to [14:03]
mircea_popescu: that is, to reconstruct some kind of sybil cake. which is exactly the "ourdemocracy science" with all tis hatefax and toxictruths and whatnot. because once you give up the proper wot process for some mechanized ersatz you find yourself again in the primordial mist, unable to guess where the landmines are. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: "but mp -- i am not equipped to try for myself!" "then this isn't a point of interest to you, is it. why'd you have an opinion on it ?" "because we're trying to build an Empire of Science!" "how's that working out ?" "so far, Republic of Idiots works." [14:05]
mircea_popescu: aaanyways, i'll bbl. [14:05]
asciilifeform: possibly i am missing a subtler mircea_popescu subthread , but asciilifeform's orig puzzler was 'how to avoid making a bolix', if you will. [14:17]
asciilifeform: i.e. spiffy but doomed-through-nonrepeatability artifacts. [14:17]
asciilifeform: generally i dun work with 'make technology that will survive fullbore apocalypse ~as technology~ (vs indiv artifacts) ' -- this is above asciilifeform's paygrade. [14:20]
asciilifeform: but if it is possible in particular instances, and i'm missing it, i'm all ears. [14:20]
asciilifeform: fwiw e.g. FUCKGOATS is repeatable, for so long as component base is available. ( and i include paper schematics & listing with it, for a reason..) but the direr problem is the shortage of literate operator who even knows wtf he is holding in hands [14:23]
asciilifeform: this , observe, is problem , even nao, even while component base ~is~ available [14:23]
asciilifeform: can't help but think of the roman bath in late-roman britain [14:39]
asciilifeform: i.e. problem was not in 'shortage of component base', there. [14:39]
asciilifeform: meanwhile in vintage lulzarchaeology, [15:39]
asciilifeform: !Q later tell mircea_popescu the link on yer www, appears dead [16:10]
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [16:10]
diana_coman: it's the bz vs biz thing [16:27]
mircea_popescu: a ty [18:58]
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: Sent 2 hours and 47 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> the link on yer www, appears dead [18:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the answer is exactly there, "avoid at all costs this situation where you're not fucking your close social circle" [18:59]
mircea_popescu: "and by fucking we mean published pictures etc, not herpi-derp coy bs" [18:59]
mircea_popescu: and fixed issue ty [19:04]
mircea_popescu: the deep meaning of the whole / / / discussion is exactly this : minds at the time INSANELY thought $object ( in sense ) is going to tell them WHO to have WHAT intercourse and HOW MUCH. [19:17]
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 22:56 mircea_popescu: out of mit's gear. NOT on mit's terms. use, you understand me ? use. like a thing. [19:17]
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 23:01 mircea_popescu: mit says minksy must use the color green. minsky ignored. mit spent 500 politruk-hours to discern whether he even did what they said or not came up with either of these. minsky still ignored. [19:17]
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 23:03 mircea_popescu: doing "the opposite" or "moving to garage", or anything, ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that in any way is biased by the mit is no go. [19:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 23:02 phf: asciilifeform: true king is a later invention, actual process is "choose king amongst yourself", and failure to do so is stupidity [19:17]
a111: Logged on 2018-05-14 23:05 mircea_popescu: and existence is predicated on intelligence, and mit never had one. it's just a humongous pile of printed dollars, the us-style equivalent of the chinese "sovereign funds". [19:17]
mircea_popescu: this is utter insanity. you don't need, or want, or ever seek "mom's" permission to fuck the daugther. not yours not hers at the slightest provocation it gets burned down, and the ashes dumped in cloaca maxima. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: this, and this only, is the way to prevent "tech becoming unrepeatable". it helps, of course, to have some tech in the first place but these are separate discussions -- fridge is how to preserve food, whether you have any food or not. [19:19]
mircea_popescu: also part and parcel of this conversation, & [19:22]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 21:23 mircea_popescu: same way the same exact item opened cannon fire at the "taxpayers" from atop the walls of oxford. [19:22]
mircea_popescu: and, of course, ultimately it all boils down to : permitting temporal power to the "spiritual" maniacs is suicide. [19:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i turned up empty in search for occasion where oxford fired the cannons [20:09]
asciilifeform: did it happen ? [20:09]
mircea_popescu: really ? "siege of oxford" ? [20:10]
asciilifeform: hm [20:10]
asciilifeform: that'd be the city, not the university per se, neh [20:11]
mircea_popescu: see also baron's war, etc. [20:11]
asciilifeform: 'strategic hamlet'(tm)(r)(kissinger) [20:11]
mircea_popescu: well the fortification is where it is. [20:11]
mircea_popescu: anyway, christchurch bought ye olde castle 16th century. [20:12]
asciilifeform: fair'nuff. tho i was hoping to turn up a neal-stephonson-esque ( he was rather fond of the idea, in his ) scene where the logicians opened up on the unwashed [20:13]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 16:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [20:13]
mircea_popescu: well, it was the royalist capital in the civil war. [20:13]
asciilifeform: aha [20:13]
mircea_popescu: was your idea king's camp should exclude king ? [20:13]
asciilifeform: dunno that charles v fits the shoe of 'idea king' [20:14]
mircea_popescu: why not ? war between "science" parliament and "idea" king. [20:15]
asciilifeform: dunno if this owl stretches over this given globe. what 'science' , what 'idea'. afaik was old-gentry vs new-money pissing match. [20:15]
mircea_popescu: not like i'm saying it muyst fit or that i expect or i expect anyone expects history to be a neat didactic work for the benefit of future livers. [20:16]
asciilifeform: it verily doesn't, in this item [20:16]
mircea_popescu: i don't get how the necessary situation whereby conflict will follow age gap somehow changes what the conflict is about. [20:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how wouldja describe what it was about ? [20:17]
mircea_popescu: charles was of the idea that he has the authority to rule as a thing of his own the unitarians were of the idea that "supreme executive power exudes from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony" [20:17]
mircea_popescu: derps wander in here all the time, "were's mp's mandate-from-the-people" ? seems it's enough of a divide to divide even today. [20:17]
mircea_popescu: what'd constitute a proper idea in your eyes ? [20:18]
asciilifeform: diff is that mircea_popescu has with what to make his objection stick old man charles did not [20:18]
mircea_popescu: so in this sense charles is deposed and mp is not deposed. does this change anything ? [20:18]
mircea_popescu: the biathlonists who fail are not thereby horse jockeys. [20:18]
mircea_popescu: they're still biathlonists, if failed ones. [20:18]
* asciilifeform can see it [20:18]
mircea_popescu: yes, THE NAME very much but ~THE TITLE~ ? [20:20]
mircea_popescu: seems enough of an idea to me, if need be. [20:20]
asciilifeform: it was clealy enuff of an idea that there was pretty close match, militarily [20:20]
PeterL: << cement hardens by simple chemical reaction incorporating O2 and/or H2O into the CaO lattice, connecting particles to make inorganic superstructural polymer matrix [20:20]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 16:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by the 'to your eyes' standard -- i dun think i own any artifacts that work to any other standard. even cement block -- we do not presently know precisely why cement hardens. [20:20]
mircea_popescu: PeterL yes but this is the end state not the process [20:21]
mircea_popescu: cement ~= first and best inorganic polymer is afaik not disputed [20:21]
asciilifeform: PeterL: i can describe in roughly similar terms what the molybdenum does in modern steel. but not why needs such-and-such % , for different machineabilities. [20:22]
PeterL: process, you mean like how the oxygens migrate through the mixture? [20:22]
mircea_popescu: consider the case of paracetamol. "it takes body to cooler end state". yes, it does. how ? [20:22]
mircea_popescu: to take a practical tack : why is CaO matrix and SrAl2O4 matrix for strontium cement ? [20:24]
PeterL: biochemistry, mumble mumble, binding to receptors causing chain reaction cascade of molecular processes, er, sumthin [20:24]
mircea_popescu: can you somehow predict this'd be the end result ? [20:24]
mircea_popescu: "i have this inorganic polymerization model which permits me to predict the behaviour of calcium-based matrices and also predicts that should you replace the calcium with strontium, the oxigen content cvadruples ans there's need for an item extra in there that's just like aluminum for so and so reasons" [20:26]
mircea_popescu: otherwise yes, we've both noticed (and for a long time!) that sunsets and sunrises color the sky. took a WHILE to explain the fucking why. [20:27]
PeterL: well, I am not materials science expert, but those who study the subject should be able to explain "if I add a bit more of $element, the properties of the material will go $direction" [20:28]
mircea_popescu: i agree, the people who study subjects should be able to answer questions in subjects. [20:29]
mircea_popescu: the bitch is -- they aren't able to answer all questions. [20:29]
PeterL: sorry if I misunderstood, but it sounded like asciilifeform was saying that questions like this are not answerable by anybody [20:30]
mircea_popescu: well no, i'm sure it's there, just, i also don't currently know exactly how it works. though in my case could be for lack of caring, i haven't been doing any building in 15 years + [20:31]
PeterL: << btw, did you ever get that gpg replacement you were looking for? [20:33]
a111: Logged on 2018-02-28 15:57 mircea_popescu: ave1 you should also read through the eucrypt thing, ima (for instance) need someone to package it into a cmd line gpg replacement as soon as next wek. [20:33]
mircea_popescu: not afaik [20:34]
mircea_popescu: inexplicably enough, SIX months later that imminent need's still not burning my ass. nfi. [20:34]
PeterL: so the thing you want, would it replicate all of gpg functionality (making them compatible), or would a separate, simpler thing be good (just does encryp/decrypt and sign/verify using rsa)? [20:37]
mircea_popescu: if it does sign, verify, encrypt and decrypt i'm happy. [20:37]
mircea_popescu: heck, if it only does verify and encrypt i'm happy. [20:38]
asciilifeform: PeterL: i dun think i ever once said 'not answerable', lol [21:20]
asciilifeform: simply that the answer contains constants that were derived empirically. [21:21]
asciilifeform: incidentally much noise was made re the elaborate calculations of early nukes, but good chunk of the design params ~also~ only were accessible empirically. hence the slotin incident. [21:22]
asciilifeform: ( errybody makes fun of the d00d, even speak of 'darwin award', but there was not really alternative to what he was doing, the $maxint robotic manipulators were built ~later~, after corpses were cold ) [21:23]
asciilifeform: !#s slotin [21:23]
a111: 10 results for "slotin", [21:23]
asciilifeform: a good % of what goes into modern tech is derived in precisely this way. [21:24]
asciilifeform: even (horror) the analogue end of FG. [21:24]
asciilifeform: to an 'aristotelian', i imagine even what passes for sane engineering, is repulsive, because of this. [21:29]
asciilifeform: ( oblig ) [21:31]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 18:48 asciilifeform: 'aristotle: your postulates are just as circular!' 'asciilifeform: i made a working diode from things i dug up' 'aristotle: you just got lucky' [21:31]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re paracetamol << lulzily, asciilifeform's 1st paying jerb was in a lab where studied inflammatory cascades. and legend had it that in very same room paracetamol was (by entirely unrelated folx, long ago) 1st tested . [21:41]
asciilifeform: the experience thoroughly cured asciilifeform of wanting anyffing to do with the field -- meat offers very little in the way of 'unifying theories'. [21:41]
asciilifeform: ( re legend, i have nfi if true, iirc several countries claimed priority ) [21:42]
asciilifeform: ( funnily enuff, asciilifeform later ended up returning to meat, for some yrs, but thats another story ) [21:44]
asciilifeform: at least in cement, the empirical fits in a constant. in meat work, it's a wall-sized (and necessarily incomplete) chart of bleargh. [21:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nobody asked him to fuck with be sphere with screwdriver [23:04]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the sense of 'couldve looked for honest work!' ? [23:06]
asciilifeform: iguess [23:06]
mircea_popescu: no dude, in the sense of could have backup on [23:06]
mircea_popescu: nobody asks moron sysadmin to work with rm -y as default either [23:06]
mircea_popescu: yes sysadmin work needed. no, playing by seat of pants not necessary. [23:06]
mircea_popescu: i don't as much as fuck girls without backup, stottin' had to handle radionuclide resonant chamber. gimme break. [23:07]
asciilifeform: eh this was back when chemists tasted their output [23:07]
asciilifeform: life cheap. [23:07]
mircea_popescu: yes well. [23:07]
asciilifeform: modern folx err in the other dir [23:08]
asciilifeform: 'cant do anyffing without $5mil robot and mother holding hand' [23:08]
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure it's on the same line. modern folkx err through absence. [23:08]
asciilifeform: mainly yes [23:08]
asciilifeform: but i've met folx who wont even lick a 9v. [23:09]
mircea_popescu: but in other news, two moon junction epic film. imagine, two years later, i go to read see wtf i said, i discover i did EXACTLY same thing! [23:09]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like lotsa rewatchings lately ? [23:20]
asciilifeform: new watchables ran out ? [23:20]
asciilifeform: ( i can easily believe ) [23:20]
mircea_popescu: yeah. for one thing i ran out of films and for the other as i said, i made a server, checking out what i got on it. [23:20]
asciilifeform: aaa [23:20]
deedbot: << Trilema - Three rivers. Approximately. [23:43]
Category: Logs
Comments feed : RSS 2.0. Leave your own comment below, or send a trackback.
Add your cents! »
    If this is your first comment, it will wait to be approved. This usually takes a few hours. Subsequent comments are not delayed.