Forum logs for 28 Mar 2019

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
mircea_popescu: "Digg Inc., a social-media pioneer once valued at more than $160 million, is selling for the deeply discounted price of about $500,000, three people familiar with the matter said." << back in 2012. [03:47]
diana_coman: asciilifeform: arnault's paper in the log from 1995 if that's the one you were looking for http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-08#1722906 [04:14]
a111: Logged on 2017-10-08 19:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220161766_Constructing_Carmichael_Numbers_which_are_Strong_Pseudoprimes_to_Several_Bases (guy named arnault gave example of number for which all tests up to ~300 were misleading) [04:14]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, nice find, definitely the source of my memory. [04:14]
diana_coman: I had it in my stash from writing eucrypt time so it rang a bell instantly [04:15]
mircea_popescu: nice hehe [04:20]
asciilifeform: ty diana_coman ! found http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-08#1722915 shortly , there it was [08:58]
a111: Logged on 2017-10-08 19:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform https://mathcrypto.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/large-carmichael-numbers-that-are-strong-pseudoprimes-to-several-bases/ [08:58]
asciilifeform: would still like to find note #3 from that one , where he actually constructs the num [09:02]
asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/RKx9Y/?raw=true << full 1000-shot run of the 2048bit-prime demo. min=13, max=306, avg=58, med=44 , total run time for 1000 primes = 58207 sec. [10:01]
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/2048bit_prime_demo_hist.png << histogram. [10:08]
mircea_popescu: thinkin gmore about this whole witness and liar discussion : [10:36]
mircea_popescu: the ~only question that actually needs an answer is whether a) a selection of n random numbers b bits long made every time a candidate prime is checked for compositeness or b) a pre-given list of prime numbers b bits long among which n are randomly picked each time a candidate prime is checked for compositeness is a better approach towards checking a candidate prime for compositeness. [10:37]
mircea_popescu: type a has the disadvantage that possibly we end up with worse witnesses, and type b has the disadvantage that possibly lists of n to which our known list of candidate witnesses is blind to may be also constructed in advance. [10:38]
mircea_popescu: atm i am unaware how one would answer this but if any brins are in the audience by all means, even an unsuccessful ~meaningful~ attempt at tackling this question of our times is liable to make new math. [10:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly i'm thick, but what does b win ? seems like any hardcoded list, if becomes known to enemy, opens you up to theoretical 'bake a n for which the witnesses are liars' item [10:39]
asciilifeform: whereas if you actually lift 32+ rng witnesses from a working rng (as in asciilifeform's demo, or diana_coman's proggy, and elsewhere where not koch.. ) actually converges (for so long as you actually have working rng) [10:41]
asciilifeform: when we 1st had m-r thread, i also considered a hybrid algo, where you take e.g. 32 rng witnesses, and 32 that are kept in bottle and known only to you , for 64-shot test that is slightly moar immune to rng failure. but then thought 'rng is jesus bolt, if fails, yer candidate is also fucked' so couldn't think of why to do such a thing. [10:42]
asciilifeform: ( see earlier thrd also, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-11#1539708 ) [10:44]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-11 22:50 asciilifeform: it is foolish to design for 'what if my rng silently fails'. it is a 'jesus bolt' failure [10:44]
asciilifeform: koch et al shat out his 'fixed witnesses' thing, and folx ate it largely cuz rng poverty. which we dun suffer from. [10:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, possibly a is actually significantly weaker than b. i dunno, intuitively i'd readily agree with you, but the fact is ~we don't know~. [10:50]
asciilifeform: ( fg disgorges up to ~32 candidate 2048-bit nums / sec . so it aint anywhere close to becoming the bottleneck in this use case ) [10:50]
mircea_popescu: in any case, it seems to me that the a witnesses MUST be generated as rng(0, 2^4096) rather than rng (2^4095, 2^4096). [10:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm quite curious to hear how could be weaker ( to any degree of crackpottery at all ) [10:51]
mircea_popescu: it is factually true that the liar occurence in (1, n) is ~1/3 i don't know how to evaluate the occurence in (n, n+k). it could be 1/3^2 or 1/3 ^ k or 1/3 ^ 1/k^16 or whatever the fuck else. [10:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall that http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2978#selection-1320.0-1335.6 [10:51]
mircea_popescu: though it seems unliukely. [10:51]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i don't disagree a is the correct way but i am pointing out we do not actually have math to point to here. for all we, properly speaking, know, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-18#1686299 eminently applies. [10:53]
a111: Logged on 2017-07-18 22:58 asciilifeform: whaack is quite likely thinking of the bulk of the b00k, which consists of blockcipher liquishit which is complicated for no reason at all other than the religion where 'it is confusing to ME, author, and therefore Must Be Hard To Break' [10:53]
asciilifeform: all we have is the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905286 ( from elementary proof ) + the observation that nobody ( or at least not asciilifeform ) has ever found a composite that doesn't properly light up m-r 'composite!' indicator for 3+ / 4 rng stabs. [10:54]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 00:00 asciilifeform: mno, ~at least~ 3/4 of numberline provably nails any given composite. [10:54]
mircea_popescu: right. we're well persuaded, and i daresay well persuasive. [10:55]
asciilifeform: to the point that i'm at a loss to construct a crackpot hypothesis for the negative ( what would the loch ness monster here look like ? erry composite n, we know has 3+ / 4 of integers as proper witnesses. so where wouldja hide'em so that working rng doesn't find 1 in 32 shots before asteroid hits machine ? ) [10:56]
asciilifeform: it's sorta like the proposition of hiding 4 people in phone booth [10:57]
asciilifeform: from a 5th [10:57]
asciilifeform: ( or, to be pedantic, 3 from a 4th ) [10:57]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, as to your earlier question : not such a large degree of crackpottery needed. consider that if i affirm today that a) given a list of however many ~randomly chosen~ witnesses from (1,n) b) the number k = x^2 + q x + p is going to be falsely identified as a prime number while n = q ^ 2 + p ^ 3, there is c) nothing you can practically do to give me the lie other than ~actually construct such numbers and check~. [10:58]
mircea_popescu: this is not what i'd call "crackpottery". for all you know there IS a manner to construct "~always lied about by random witnesses" prime candidates. [10:58]
asciilifeform: the m-r proof is unambiguous re the number line thing. i.e. the p of n ~actually random~ witnesses all lying, is bounded. [10:59]
mircea_popescu: or in other words : "random" is not "jolly joker of do what i mean". [10:59]
asciilifeform: this type of failure hinges on imperfection of rng, rather than hidden boojum in m-r [11:00]
mircea_popescu: it does seem more likely, yes. [11:00]
mircea_popescu: and it is bounded, yes. but ~statistically~ bounded. [11:00]
asciilifeform: correct, the bound presumes a flat-spectrum rng. [11:01]
mircea_popescu: the bound presumes a flat spectrum rng and properties of large sets of random numbers that ~have not been proven~, though they are experimentally VERY reliable. [11:01]
asciilifeform: the 1 device which dun rely on unprovens is... otp ( insert oblig old thrd here !11 ) [11:03]
asciilifeform: even 'factoring is hard' -- unproven, etc [11:03]
mircea_popescu: there, again there is not a mathematical proof to permit you to say -- if i say "the largest contiguous set of consecutive liars before number n will contain k such liars where k = n divided by alf's gf's nosehair count" there's no formulaic approach you can fall back on. you'll have to take the girl by the nose, count, and break out the abacuses. [11:03]
asciilifeform: how does 'contiguous set of liars' play into scenario with working rng ? [11:05]
mircea_popescu: i do not dispute that the exercise is not worth doing, unless one has a girl nose fetish. nevertheless, worth doing is a different consideration from true. [11:05]
asciilifeform: say you have n for which the entire bottom quarter of the 2048bit witness space is liar. how does this prevent working rng from still finding working witness in the expected # of shots ? [11:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, for all you know, all numbers between n and n+k are liars for all primes larger than 2^l [11:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, the problem's not necessarily stated as you state it. i am not capable to know in advance WHAT attack will have to be faced. [11:06]
asciilifeform: apparently mircea_popescu dun buy the 3/4 proof ? [11:06]
mircea_popescu: i do buy it, but it is ~statistical~, and it applies for 1, n and NOT for n, n+k [11:07]
asciilifeform: i can't see any path to 'magically fails 32 shots despite working uniform rng' without rejecting the 3/4 [11:07]
mircea_popescu: statistical means some things, we do not know how it diverges once we narrow intervals. [11:07]
asciilifeform: i must confess that i dun see how works. [11:07]
mircea_popescu: just because "every other human is female" does not mean there's 3 males in my harem. [11:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i dun see how works either! but what i'm saying is that you don't have ~proof~ it doesn't! [11:08]
asciilifeform: yer harem aint a uniform hat pick from the set tho [11:08]
mircea_popescu: how do you know this ? [11:08]
mircea_popescu: we're back to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905447 however this worm turns. [11:08]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 15:05 mircea_popescu: i do not dispute that the exercise is not worth doing, unless one has a girl nose fetish. nevertheless, worth doing is a different consideration from true. [11:08]
asciilifeform: near as i can tell, the argument resolves to 'random dun exist, if beelzebub feels like it he will feed you 32 liars' [11:09]
asciilifeform: which begs question, why not him instead drops an asteroid on yer head [11:09]
mircea_popescu: argument reduces to "you do not know what random means". [11:09]
asciilifeform: cheaper, thermodynamically. [11:09]
mircea_popescu: afgain : just because you've proven that 3/4 numbers in the interval 1, n have property p, you have not shown ANYTHING about how many numbers have the property p in some other interval q, q+k. [11:10]
mircea_popescu: and i do mean ANYTHING. [11:10]
asciilifeform: the interval being picked for witness is 1..n ( well,really 1..n-1 , see diana_coman's review) tho [11:10]
mircea_popescu: yes you have "good reason to believe". [11:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, and this SHOULD STAY THAT WAY, is one thing i'm saying. for the above reasoning. [11:10]
asciilifeform: so is the idea 'you cannot know whether yer rng actually worx?' cuz then i must agree [11:11]
asciilifeform: ( and applies equally to the candidate # , and to any other application of rng ) [11:11]
mircea_popescu: your rng working or not is aside the point we're discussing here random numbers as a mathematical abstraction, we're not even counting "well, your set of 4, 4, 4, 4 is not exactly an implementation of that abstraction" [11:11]
asciilifeform: well yes, q is re ~definition~ of 'working rng', as an abstract object [11:12]
mircea_popescu: yes, "you do not even know what a working rng mathematically means" [11:12]
asciilifeform: which 6 yrs after picking up subj, asciilifeform for instance is no closer to nao than then [11:12]
mircea_popescu: quite. [11:12]
mircea_popescu: but yes, the relation you unearth is sound. the problem or set thereof i started discussing is exactly homomorphic to "well, we have no proper rng tests, "ou'll have to take the girl by the nose, count, and break out the abacuses.") [11:13]
asciilifeform: incidentally, litmus where you pluck a string of N bits from rng, and then look for the expected distribution of m-r liars ( or apparent primality ) is itself a notbad, imho, rng test [11:14]
mircea_popescu: totally should be part of tmsr.ent [11:15]
mircea_popescu: being pretty much the ~only test anyone here in any substantial sense gives a shit about. [11:15]
asciilifeform: ( like all other possible rng tests, presupposes that the device is in fact an rng, rather than e.g. tape playing back an old rng run while enemy dies of laughter ) [11:15]
mircea_popescu: for sure. [11:16]
asciilifeform: would be mighty great use case for hypothetical 'ffa cpu' (i.e. arithmetizer with wide bus) [11:17]
asciilifeform: on pc , pretty slow ( dun actually make anyffing like full use of even the modest fg bit rate ) [11:18]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> being pretty much the ~only test anyone here in any substantial sense gives a shit about. << Indeed [11:19]
mircea_popescu: imo item should be baked anyways, as a tmsr.crypto model object. [11:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i'd say you found the first meaningful patch to be put on the fg tree. [11:20]
asciilifeform: fwiw however i cannot presently think of any rng test, even the dumbest ones in the 'dieharder' collection, that wouldn't barf at a rng which avoids 3/4 (or any similar proportion) chunk of the integer number line [11:20]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1902989 object. [11:20]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 03:03 mircea_popescu: "We wonder, and some Hunter may express wonder like ours, when through wilderness where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace he meets some fragment, huge, and there stops to guess. What powerful but unrecorded race once dwelt in that annihilated place ?" [11:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, they're not equally distributed. here's what i propose : take a rng run, ent then take out all carmichael numbers from it, run ent. then see if you can tell which is which. [11:21]
mircea_popescu: i'm willing to bet "entropy is improved" 50% of the time. [11:21]
asciilifeform: afaik there is no recipe for finding large carmichaels . [11:23]
asciilifeform: ( a coupla thou. are known, found by brute force for the bottom 10e12 or so of number line, that's afaik it ) [11:23]
mircea_popescu: pretty sure more like a few mn are known, obtained as you say.\ [11:24]
mircea_popescu: http://archive.is/4Qjzh << keks of all fucking time. [11:26]
asciilifeform: i confess the orig. supposition still dun compute in my head, where yes 3/4 of number line proves compositivity , but somehow a device which even approximates uniform random, manages to avoid'em in 32+ shots. [11:27]
mircea_popescu: http://archive.is/4Qjzh#selection-387.0-447.23 imo best part. [11:28]
* asciilifeform to tea, will think [11:28]
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/03/eu-mandating-speed-naggers-in-all-cars-by-2022/ << Qntra -- EU Mandating Speed Naggers In All Cars By 2022 [12:00]
BingoBoingo: ^ Disagrees with EU on which side of road is for driving, auto-adopts entire EU transport shit anyways [12:00]
asciilifeform: oook even with tea i cannot digest it. mircea_popescu's gedankendevice requires http://trilema.com/2017/resplenduminous/ . [12:02]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's a difference between "show x can't be done" and "show how to do x" [12:03]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, fortunately their tower of shit depends on crap like having gps in the car. [12:04]
asciilifeform: sure enuff, but seems to me that asking for an object that appears to pass even elementary (e.g. 'pi dart') rng smoke test, while actually avoids 3/4 of the phase space in its output, is like asking for a 2 which is also a 3 . [12:04]
mircea_popescu: we don't see the same thing here. [12:05]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: And car being sold in EU [12:05]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's rework the supposition into a gedankenexperiment, with mircea_popescu's permission ( plox to say if the described situation dun match the orig. ) [12:05]
mircea_popescu: sure. [12:06]
BingoBoingo: Version for export to China/India/Russia/Qatar probably better anyways [12:06]
asciilifeform: suppose you have candidate p , generated with what you consider to be a working (i.e. uniform) rng , with no interference from devils. [12:06]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, i expect sometime before 2022 ima switch to buying azn cars. what can you do, germans are morons now. [12:06]
asciilifeform: however, for baking m-r witnesses, you are in fact using a wire that goes down straight into hell [12:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, alright. [12:07]
asciilifeform: where the devil in fact knows what each of your p is ( but he won't tell yer human enemy, he likes to make humans fight for amusement ) [12:07]
asciilifeform: however he would like you to have a good probability of settling on a p which is actually composite [12:07]
asciilifeform: so erry time you milk the wire for a witness, he gives you ( with some probability higher than what you would expect from actual rng per the orig m-r ) a false witness , erry time. [12:08]
mircea_popescu: alright. [12:08]
mircea_popescu: "from actual rng per [naive interpretation] of m-r claims", but w/e. [12:08]
asciilifeform: nao the q becomes, you later look at what came out of the wire. is it possible to conceive of a 'rng test' that the output would not (for particular p , taken as constant) fail ? [12:08]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yes. [12:09]
asciilifeform: can describe one ? [12:09]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905493 [12:09]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 15:21 mircea_popescu: i'm willing to bet "entropy is improved" 50% of the time. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: described in log. [12:09]
asciilifeform: cuz 'avoids 3/4 of space' is equiv to , e.g., rng that never produces string '00', '01', '10' for any 2 bits of output [12:09]
mircea_popescu: it does not avoid 3/4 of space. [12:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'avoids carmichaels' dun do anyffing for m-r [12:10]
asciilifeform: so does mircea_popescu reject the 'for ~any~ given composite, 3/4 of integers are m-r witnesses' item ? [12:10]
mircea_popescu: understand : there are no less than 2^4096 numbers in 4096 bits. if you take say 32 numbers out of this, that is, 2^5, you have thereby avoided 2^4091 numbers from the original set, which is to say, 100% to any practical apperoximation. [12:10]
asciilifeform: ( and, note, 'of integers 1 ... p-1' ) [12:10]
mircea_popescu: you can not, on the basis of a 0% sample, to say anything avbout how the sample fits in the 100% it came from. [12:11]
asciilifeform: who said '0%' tho. you have an arbitrarily long string of queries to devil [12:12]
asciilifeform: if he wants you to fail with prob=1 , then he gotta give you a false witness each time. [12:12]
asciilifeform: these are drawn from 1/4 of the phase space. [12:12]
mircea_popescu: yes, in theory. in practice, you have a finite set out of a necessarily large space -- as part and parcel of what cryptography IS. [12:12]
asciilifeform: ( per given p ) [12:12]
mircea_popescu: if we were even close to space saturation, itr wouldn't be called crypto, it'd be called social security numbers. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: devil dun' care about probability 1, or about "infinitely long trials". [12:13]
mircea_popescu: devil cares about the thought of man. which is neither. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: and ~this~ is the core of my argument -- not that probability of 1, nor that "forever". merely that for the one spot you happen to look at. [12:14]
asciilifeform: rright, which is why he is in this play , notion is that he'd like you to continue to think that you have a working process with given characteristic, whereas in fact quite different [12:14]
mircea_popescu: otherwise, by naive extension of daily experience, items such a geode (or even, an ore vein) are "not possible" [12:14]
asciilifeform: so is the puzzler actually about m-r , or about whether notion of probability is physical ? [12:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it's not a puzzler it all reduces to the downstream implications of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905437 [12:15]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 14:59 mircea_popescu: or in other words : "random" is not "jolly joker of do what i mean". [12:15]
asciilifeform: so the latter ? 'bahaha you think uniform distributions exist' ? [12:15]
mircea_popescu: from "numbers on the interval 1, n have property p with probability 3/4"it does NOT follow that "these five numbers i picked contain 3.75 numbers wirth property p" [12:16]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, "uniform distributions" are not guaranteed to be what you get. when you go to milk shop and order milk, you get milk on the strength of ~human industry~, NOT on the strength of "the meanings of abstracts". [12:16]
asciilifeform: the notion does however follow, that lottery players are fucked in the head ( or is this also nao reopened case ..? ) [12:16]
mircea_popescu: this is proven by the fact that when you go to p-numbers shop and get numbers, what you get are... numbers. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, all lottery players except the winner are fucked in the head. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: from the fact that "it is improductive, economically, to play the lottery" it does NOT follow that "it is a bad strategy, my daughter, to marry the winners" [12:17]
asciilifeform: record appears to show that the winners, too , fucked [12:17]
mircea_popescu: principally, by the daughters. [12:18]
asciilifeform: historically, by sharp stick. at least in the case of what's ordinarily called lottery. cuz winning dun banish from the head the cockroaches that made'em play to begin with [12:19]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu amply documented this for the btc lotterists , for instance [12:19]
asciilifeform: i.e. 'stopped clock is right 1ce a day' but is still a broken clock, even if at that moment in day it is not distinguishable with naked eye from working [12:20]
mircea_popescu: yes, but i happen to have whole blog documenting the daughter strategy, hence eg http://trilema.com/2009/chiar-nu-ma-agita-chestiunea/#selection-69.105-69.754 [12:20]
mircea_popescu: nicoleci, ^ btw. [12:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, consider : 1. X is a bad strategy (true) 2. exploiting winners of X is a good strategy (true). [12:21]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform oughta confess how he was duped in buenos aires , it is pertinent to thread [12:21]
mircea_popescu: just because "it is random", doesn't mean 2 can't happen. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: go for it. [12:21]
asciilifeform: before taking off , decided to buy sumthing from the carpet men, and bought a pocket watch. appeared to be keeping correct time, spiffy-looking '20s german thing [12:22]
asciilifeform: already guessed what was the trick ? [12:22]
asciilifeform: ( carpet man of course set'em erry day ... ) [12:22]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform - lost 20bux, learned sumthing. [12:23]
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine. [12:23]
asciilifeform: lol [12:23]
asciilifeform: at least it wasn't the old 'cockroach inside , ticks' item. [12:24]
asciilifeform: per o'henry [12:24]
asciilifeform: upstack, to 'exploiting the winners is +ev strat' , this is entirely troo, for so long as you know how to eat'em without becoming infected with whatever made'em fat to begin with [12:26]
mircea_popescu: the overarching point here is that merely http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905503 is very little argument -- the whore discussed is superlatively feminine, and as a factual matter the human species exists as extant because the females employ the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905562 item, specifically as "let's all you schmoes go to war, and [http://trilema.com/2017/the-perennial-harriette-wilson/#selection-111.0-111 [12:27]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:02 asciilifeform: oook even with tea i cannot digest it. mircea_popescu's gedankendevice requires http://trilema.com/2017/resplenduminous/ . [12:27]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, consider : 1. X is a bad strategy (true) 2. exploiting winners of X is a good strategy (true). [12:27]
mircea_popescu: .61][we'll fuck whoever comes back]". [12:27]
asciilifeform: i'd be lying if i said that i knew how to connect this to the orig puzzler. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: the whole human race (and not exceptionally, most mammals also) is, essentialyl, an exercise in the exploitation of liar distribution like here discussed [12:28]
mircea_popescu: what is a rich merchant but a false witness to the truth of the dangers of voyage and risks of merchantry ? [12:29]
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, will add that http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/ is possibly moar pertinent to the orig q than 'resplenduminous' [12:29]
mircea_popescu: "of all the merchants there lie within this generation of 12 yo boys, 3/4 will die before being rich" "i intend to marry one of the rest. or three." [12:30]
asciilifeform: i.e. '"That dial hasn't moved yet, has it?" Edwardson asked, over the clamor of the Detector alarm bell. "Not a waffle." Cassel said reassuringly, looking at the dial with its indicator slamming back and forth against the stoppers either way.' [12:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, depends if you look from inside or from outside. from outside, kim is quite the perfect model. [12:30]
asciilifeform: ( also ougta add, that if extended riemann is troo , then the supposition that 'for erry finite set of witnesses, can produce a p for which they all lie' is not , and the rng component of m-r would then be redherring ) [12:32]
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman reviewed subj [12:32]
mircea_popescu: and, lest the "women's rights an' freedoms" morons get irritated -- no, the "not anymore" re marriage and the outlay above is not some kind of "progress". it is the simple economical result of the value of new children reaching ~0 and the probability of success also reaching ~0 : thus [12:33]
mircea_popescu: therefore, the previous class of specialist egg layers are now repurposed into a doubling of the food searcher contingent. [12:33]
asciilifeform: ~this~ subthread i must leave to mircea_popescu ( i haven't with what to disagree ) [12:34]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, that much is true, and yes, this 2nd link you unearth is also very likely (at least as far as i know) true : can't have at the same time what we discuss here and http://trilema.com/2013/squares-do-morals-a-porno/#selection-475.0-475.334 therefore i said http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905411 [12:35]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 14:39 mircea_popescu: atm i am unaware how one would answer this but if any brins are in the audience by all means, even an unsuccessful ~meaningful~ attempt at tackling this question of our times is liable to make new math. [12:35]
* asciilifeform cannot resist, sings lehrer's 'new math' [12:35]
mircea_popescu: keks [12:35]
* mircea_popescu is quite tickled that the ready reference of the issue is titled things with squares and morals and pornos. considering the context in which i needed it lo SIX years later... [12:37]
mircea_popescu: quite remarkable stability. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: TITled, geddit. [12:37]
asciilifeform: before thread exhausts its fuel, asciilifeform would like to hear whether mircea_popescu has actionable 'nah do it like ~so~' for m-r, or only the 'memento mori' [12:40]
mircea_popescu: the only practically useful tidbit i have is "according to math arcana, witnesses absolutely must come from 1, 2^n rather than 2^n-1, 2^n notwithstanding the latter might look "thicker" [12:41]
asciilifeform: um m-r only worx if w from 2 .. n-1 [12:42]
mircea_popescu: the other useful rtidbit that came out of this, you came up with : new tmsr.ent element, which yes should be done. [12:43]
asciilifeform: ( as pictured in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2978#selection-592.0-617.1 ) [12:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, point being, can't just take the 2nd half. yes, start at 2. [12:43]
asciilifeform: i can't think of any reason to constrict the witness pool any further than m-r per se constrains it [12:43]
asciilifeform: ( observe what asciilifeform's m-r does with the witness input ) [12:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, for instance, proceeding through analogy with what with did to the e's, "must be this many bits" [12:44]
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2978#selection-1320.0-1367.7 ) [12:45]
asciilifeform: i.e. all electrically-permitted inputs map onto a permitted 2 .. n - 1 , and those who fit into the range to begin with, map directly ( others map via modular reduction ) [12:46]
BingoBoingo: In daughter strategy https://www.montevideo.com.uy/Noticias/Tras-fallo-favorable-a-empresario-prostituta-apela-y-exige-el-pago-de-U-S-700-000-uc713957 [12:46]
mircea_popescu: fwiw, since it was mentioned : i don't see what's so scandalous with the "new arithmetic" whereby one explicits the powers rather than whatever historical approach. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: maybe it's just me being jewish or w/e, but honestly, so what if "that 1 in the 10s is really 10 ones, and if it were in the 64s it'd really be 8 8s" ? [12:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik lehrer was laffing at the notion that 'new notation will cure all' [12:47]
asciilifeform: was a period crackpottery, in ameri-ed [12:47]
mircea_popescu: ah. [12:47]
asciilifeform: see also 'phonics' [12:47]
mircea_popescu: ok, but i mean... so it's a notation, what. i'd settle for any manner of teaching kids headarithmetic i've yet to meet any female of enslavement age who can actually do it. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: i don't even mean radicals, or fast calculations of things like 149 * 16 as "well, 24 minus a unit" [12:48]
asciilifeform: afaik it's teachable like any other mechanical trick [12:48]
mircea_popescu: now all it takes is it actually being taught. [12:48]
asciilifeform: !#s the feeling of power [12:49]
a111: 11 results for "the feeling of power", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=the%20feeling%20of%20power [12:49]
asciilifeform: ^ see also [12:49]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/t4imw << subj. asimov. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, i don't get her cause of action, nudum pactum much ? she wants 700k pesos FOR WHAT ? "he wrote so" ain't no cause of auction, in both civil and common. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: gifts from the hand, in civil law, that aren't in possession aren't title. [12:52]
asciilifeform: '"Yes, I know," said the little technician earnestly, "but I start by saying seven times three because that's the way it works. Now seven times three is twenty-one." "And how do you know that?" asked the congressman. "I just remember it. It's always twenty-one on the computer. I've checked it any number of times." "That doesn't mean it always will be, though, does it?" said the congressman. "Maybe not," stammered Aub. "I'm not a math [12:53]
asciilifeform: ematician. But I always get the right answers, you see."' [12:53]
mircea_popescu: (and even in posession, can be clawed in probate etc) [12:53]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought 'possession is 9/10th of the law'(tm) lol [12:54]
BingoBoingo: Her cause can be reduced to that unyielding socialist faith. "It imagined it working, why isn't it?" [12:54]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, sure. BingoBoingo pretty lulzy. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: "Este miércoles, Salle dijo a Montevideo Portal que el vale "fue un arrendamiento de servicio por actos sexuales y orgiásticos" y que el juez debe fijarse si el pagaré cumple con todos los requisitos y no en otros asuntos." [12:55]
mircea_popescu: bwahahaha fucktards. [12:55]
BingoBoingo: You know, the sort of thought patterns that drive prison lawyers incapable of keeping themselves out of prison [12:55]
mircea_popescu: im sure she has a contract afore the fact, too, listing the price. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: when the fuck's a whore in that shithole made 10k, let alone 100k. or what is the peso, 8 to the dollar or so ? [12:56]
BingoBoingo: 33 to the dollar [12:56]
mircea_popescu: "Cuando ejecutás un vale la ley prevé una serie de mecanismos de defensa, entre esos mecanismos de defensa no está el que vos ingreses a analizar el negocio que dio origen al vale. El vale es una forma de pago, es un documento de crédito, es como que emitas un cheque. El juez de la ejecución no tiene autorizado entrar a analizar el negocio que dio origen al cheque", explic [12:56]
mircea_popescu: superkeks.\ [12:56]
mircea_popescu: wtf, and these tards are actually lawyers now ? [12:56]
mircea_popescu: like fucking children exactly, "the precarious chair tower seemed solid to me on the basis of it standing, why did it fall over ?!?!?!" [12:57]
BingoBoingo: Typical rates listed on the whoring portals are 1000-3000 pesos (30-100 USD) hourly. In practice... [12:57]
mircea_popescu: so she worked for 200 hours, keks. [12:57]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> wtf, and these tards are actually lawyers now ? << Worse, graduates del la facultad de Derecho! [12:57]
BingoBoingo: Not law school, rights school [12:58]
mircea_popescu: hahaha [12:58]
BingoBoingo: And it SHOWS! [12:59]
mircea_popescu: this might be the most retarded case i read this year. [12:59]
mircea_popescu: i'd put the lawyer in jail, if i were stuck judging this thing. [12:59]
mircea_popescu: "go ye in county for contempt and you can get out when some other judge says so, cuz i ain't gonna." [12:59]
BingoBoingo: Under the current criminal code, that might be interpreted as a sentence of community service with the guilty assigned to judge in order to work off his debt to society [13:00]
mircea_popescu: noty. [13:00]
BingoBoingo: Very http://trilema.com/2016/esteemed-james-l-caldwell/ situation [13:00]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905645 << aand here i thought it was a lang artifact ( 'derecho' -- 'right', i.e. juris ) [13:03]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:58 BingoBoingo: Not law school, rights school [13:03]
asciilifeform: tho it wouldn't astonish me if in some orcistan were 'derechos' [13:04]
mircea_popescu: it si, it is. he's just being mean. [13:04]
asciilifeform: lolk [13:04]
mircea_popescu: besides, duke's the lands' foremost university of left turns. [13:05]
mircea_popescu: "you gotta go to uni to make a turn ?" "here yes" [13:05]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, that was quite a pleasant re-read lol. i even forgot about it. [13:06]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905513 << asciilifeform going on 20yrs of asia, 0 complaints [13:08]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:06 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, i expect sometime before 2022 ima switch to buying azn cars. what can you do, germans are morons now. [13:08]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> it si, it is. he's just being mean. << Only halfway. The other half is derechos as in derechos por cerdos humanos [13:08]
mircea_popescu: i suspect we might want very different things from our cars. [13:08]
asciilifeform: likely [13:08]
asciilifeform: then again i suspect the plasti-tubs sold nao are shite across the board [13:08]
asciilifeform: and not 1 will actually run for 20y [13:08]
asciilifeform: ( or eat less than its entire orig price tag in parts , possible >1ce ) [13:09]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1 obv concrete diff, i run mine on asphalt.. [13:10]
* asciilifeform wonders what, specifically, eats cars in mircea_popescustan. gotta be the mud, the humidity, cuz it aint salt ( where snows -- salt ) [13:11]
mircea_popescu: bartholomew is driving my groundskeeper fellow to the brink of madness. it is the SECOND consecutive technical inspection it passed without any repairs, AT ALL. the poor guy, drives a cheap toyota, comes back from trhe test with lengthly lists of requisites EVERY time. last year he was very put off by the "pass on 1st try" thing, especially as the year prior he had seen the thing dump its fluids and have to be toed. but th [13:11]
mircea_popescu: is 2nd pass of the same... it just... he's visibly still dfigesting it. [13:11]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what period toyota ? cuz if it's 2010s with debug port, then noshit it'll generate 'long list of requisites' erry time gets plugged in [13:12]
asciilifeform: auto-scamola [13:12]
asciilifeform: tho then again mircea_popescu did say 'dumps fluids' lol [13:13]
asciilifeform: imho oughta compare machines from same era [13:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, 30% grades crazy winds drove it through sand and through a river bed i'm too lazy rto get the link of and and and [13:13]
asciilifeform: possibly i observed this before, but seems like mircea_popescustan is really gelandewagen terrain [13:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, they have this testing office here, they give you a stamp that the car is up to spect technically, good for 1 year. (good measure too, the tubs these people drove before it... jesus f. even now you see trucks dead in middle of onramp cuz unmaintained engine finally croaked etc) [13:14]
asciilifeform: here also they have, but these only are interested in what goes out from tailpipe.. [13:14]
asciilifeform: ( erry 2y ) [13:15]
mircea_popescu: they check everyhing. (no joke, either, ticos are a serious folk). brakes, direction, i even get warnings that the front seat headrest is unattached (i keep it out deliberately, so as not to obstruct my front view) [13:15]
asciilifeform: interesting [13:15]
asciilifeform: ( in usa, similar but only when thing is sold ) [13:16]
mircea_popescu: i think in principle the "all tests failed" printout would be 10-20k itemized lines. [13:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sounds like the german is pretty neat machine. and iirc mircea_popescu said he bought it for only ~lispmachine's worth, even [13:17]
mircea_popescu: the cheap one wasn't expensive at all, and yes worth every god damned penny. [13:17]
asciilifeform: what was it, 5k or wat [13:17]
mircea_popescu: more like 10 including all the repairs it needed. [13:18]
asciilifeform: still pretty great [13:18]
asciilifeform: tho of course it's '10k + mircea_popescu's trained nose' [13:18]
mircea_popescu: i have no regrets. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: haha yes, you know i got it on the spot ? self-same groundskeeper, "but you know the car ?" "nope" "So you went with mechanic ?" "umm, no." "but... so you got scammed ?" "i guess we see" [13:18]
asciilifeform: i'd expect on the spot, rather than mircea_popescu brought it in suitcase from argentina, lol [13:19]
mircea_popescu: lol. [13:19]
mircea_popescu: so then was stuck discovering defects for half a year / training locals to sanity because http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-16#1887591 and stuck paying for parts / organizing imports / whatever, to the tune of like 3k, ie, years' local salary. which seemed to vindicate the "you were scammed" pov. [13:21]
a111: Logged on 2019-01-16 15:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have the converse problem. alternator dies on road, /me takes car back to (otherwise very competent, and very able) independent mechanic who charged 75 an hour for tools and labour to find what needs changing and then install mp's parts (75 CENTS!!!). "why the fuck was not this on the bill ?" "ah, it wasn't really broken yet, still hung on a thread". [13:21]
mircea_popescu: except poor dood's spent MORE than that fixing his toyota so as to get the riteve hence. vindicating the point that... hm. white devil! [13:21]
asciilifeform: imho buying 5k box and then finding 5k of fixable defect -- beats shit out of buying 100k box and then finding that whole thing is 1 100k-weighing defect of the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-15#1902627 variety [13:24]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-15 01:57 asciilifeform: cuz , see, 'computer needs replace' [13:24]
mircea_popescu: i do not believe any same-year made car during any of the years involved could have survived as a replacement. (i don't even take the newer / better ones for this sort of treck -- and tbh, i do not respect them NEARLY as much. i grew to love the cheap unassuming old car on the merits, which is to say what it'll take. like any woman. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: there's this purely idiotarian usgistani view of "oh, young woman always better than old wife". really, bitch ? cuz why, cuz the precious cuntlet can't take without breaking down a 1% of what the tried and tested old ho can swallow unblinking ? [13:26]
asciilifeform: ( usd printolade press birthed not only 100k auto that's 90% plastic , but even this is not enuff to make their manufacture +ev , they gotta nao also turn'em into chump milking machines by ~design~ ) [13:26]
mircea_popescu: so they buy shitty cars and live unhappy domestic lives. [13:26]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, point in case : the undercarriage transmission/engine cover was banged AT LEAST ONE HUNDRED TIMES. so the car goes "bong!" and your head shakes and you're "omfg, the 7 (seven!!! point five!!!) liters of expensive oil are now on the ground. [13:27]
mircea_popescu: never happened, i have yet nfi wtf it is shielded by, but volcanic rock seems to have nothing on it. [13:28]
asciilifeform: ( incidentally not unlike the proverbial ipnoje , which not ~only~ has to cost 2k to +ev, but to be ~unrepairable and glass cracks if you look at it sideways ) [13:28]
mircea_popescu: this used to be the bane of the mercedesen i used in a diff life in romania. [13:28]
asciilifeform: loose oilplug ? [13:29]
mircea_popescu: apparently, german science made progress between late 90s and mid 2000s, fixed problem. [13:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, no, cracked engine / transmission casing. [13:29]
asciilifeform: aa [13:29]
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, afaik sovok autos, which had just about erry other possib. fuckup, did not suffer from this one [13:29]
mircea_popescu: it stands to reason, too. "we made this thing to be driven on road, road is defined as no immovable obstacles taller than x, plox to keep in mind". [13:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, no doubt aided by relative roadlessness of mother russia. [13:30]
asciilifeform: in ru shite road, but usually on acct of mud liquishit, rather than stones [13:31]
mircea_popescu: well, here too, kinda how rocks end up in the way : mudslide washes them in, then rain washes the mud. sorta like fractioned distillation [13:32]
mircea_popescu: how volcano side works. [13:32]
asciilifeform: that makes sense [13:33]
mircea_popescu: in fairness, ru mud not volcanic. [13:34]
asciilifeform: verily [13:35]
asciilifeform: fwiw i suspect that machine of same vintage as mircea_popescu's , but with slightly higher road clearance, would work even better [13:35]
asciilifeform: on the terrain [13:35]
mircea_popescu: possibly. im vaguely considering getting a mog, hanbot 's a fan. [13:36]
asciilifeform: kamaz!111 [13:36]
mircea_popescu: they have cvasi-sedan ones, doesn't have to be a truck [13:37]
* asciilifeform believes [13:37]
BingoBoingo: Parts availability will probably go up quite a bit with a mog [13:37]
mircea_popescu: they are also indescribably fucking cute. but w/e, i have complex demands, we see. [13:40]
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to it : the large rocks are one thing, but if you drive over macadam say (which is not inconceivable here, and yes on a grade with hairpins, whynot) there's very much a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1735165 sorta affair : for any arbitrary energy, you will get X many rocks per hour, or mile. [13:43]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-09 16:38 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu earlier suggested , 'boltzmann distrib' of coffee speck velocities, almost certainly has high end that grinds pieces of your vessel into the output [13:43]
mircea_popescu: if you add up the miles, soon enough the toyota's ground into a toaster oven [13:43]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: illustrative case would be dust ( e.g. desert ) wear [13:43]
asciilifeform: when goes fastenuff, errything is 'rock' [13:43]
mircea_popescu: and then going even lower, there's of course sand. which was ww2 killer in africa . [13:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, item genuinely was sunk a meter into sand, took girls half hour to dig it back out. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: (i muchly doubt azn make'd have ever made it out on own power, at that.) [13:44]
mircea_popescu: one of those cases where yes it makes difference to have 300 rather than 30 hp available. [13:45]
asciilifeform: you can get 300 horse from asia, wainot [13:45]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, whai not. i never looked at it before, because i'm a loyal kind. but the way the germans are going... yes, of course eventually you lose me. [13:46]
mircea_popescu: nobody can insult a customer forever and keep him. [13:46]
* asciilifeform never ran auto on mircea_popescustan-like terrain, cannot make specific claim re subj. but imho oughta compare like to like [13:46]
mircea_popescu: im not saying it's strinctly impossible bonluck or ssongyank or w/e makes cars just as good as bayernische krankenwerken or whatever. it is a fact though, i never looked at it seriously before. chiefly because never had to. [13:47]
asciilifeform: fairnuff [13:48]
mircea_popescu: http://www.bonluckbus.com/ << not made up, btw. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: "ticabus", ie, local operator, actually on their website roll. [13:49]
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, earlier this yr when asciilifeform looked at (optical) microscopes, found out that germany apparently defeated by jp , in late '90s [13:50]
mircea_popescu: http://www.bonluckbus.com/imageRepository/ce87e380-e159-44e9-97e5-c25d2e9d9a5e.png [13:50]
asciilifeform: ( in asciilifeform's various lives, only ever used 'zeiss' , but apparently zeiss sinking ) [13:50]
mircea_popescu: heh. [13:50]
asciilifeform: optical , btw, will handily do the bolix job, when comes time, with oil-immersion objective. [13:51]
asciilifeform: just gotta find 1 that actually worx.. [13:51]
mircea_popescu: re-reading today it occurs to me... you know we're having some fucking excellent discussions these days ? [13:55]
* asciilifeform does particularly enjoy the maffs thrds [13:56]
asciilifeform: 'tis funny , really, who else has any [13:56]
asciilifeform: heathendom afaik is moar or less bone dry at this pt [13:56]
mircea_popescu: no math.expertsexchange.com ? [13:57]
asciilifeform: ooh yes [13:57]
asciilifeform: it's fulla http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895439 tho [13:57]
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 15:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i associate shitoverflow with articles like 'how do i cast 'fireball' in real life?' ( actual find ) [13:57]
asciilifeform: and ~0 maff.. [13:57]
mircea_popescu: all sex change an' no maff ? [13:57]
asciilifeform: near as i can tell [13:58]
asciilifeform: btw recall the one re phuctor ? [13:58]
mircea_popescu: heh [13:58]
asciilifeform: where 'evil libel, no such thing as...' etc [13:58]
mircea_popescu: how could i forget. [13:58]
asciilifeform: ( aaand of course they marked it as 'canonical answer' , for then google to auto-return, etc .. ) [13:59]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905566 << did you ever say the how here ? wtf half-confession was this. [13:59]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:22 asciilifeform: before taking off , decided to buy sumthing from the carpet men, and bought a pocket watch. appeared to be keeping correct time, spiffy-looking '20s german thing [13:59]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905568 answ [13:59]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:22 asciilifeform: ( carpet man of course set'em erry day ... ) [13:59]
asciilifeform: if you pick it up an' watch it for 5min, you dun know that it loses 1/20sec / min [14:00]
mircea_popescu: i dunno what all this "canonical" bs ever does. eg, they invented some alt- mircea_popescu a few years ago, to auto-return, great expert bla bla. did ~nothing, sunk back into the gavinvat. [14:00]
mircea_popescu: oh oh, set them every day. i read "sold them every day". i c lol. [14:01]
mircea_popescu: you know, old watches did need to be set every day. we even discussed this in the logs, as to the function of big ben etc. [14:01]
asciilifeform: ya but iirc that thrd was re 16th-18th c pieces [14:02]
asciilifeform: not 20th [14:02]
mircea_popescu: yes well. [14:03]
asciilifeform: even my sovok alarm clock keeps to <1s/day (yes sovok made alarm clocks with rubies, thermocompensated spring, etc. i could not say exactly why, prolly same factory made for submarine as for desktop ... ) [14:03]
mircea_popescu: and more 16 than 18, at that. nevertheless -- maybe you lucked out. "should you be able to bend a solid gold watch ?" [14:03]
asciilifeform: defo 'lucked out' lol [14:03]
mircea_popescu: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ceas+desteptator+rubine << pretty sure we discussed before. [14:04]
asciilifeform: there it is ! [14:04]
asciilifeform: 'slava' [14:04]
asciilifeform: defo came up in log [14:04]
mircea_popescu: http://ceasuridemana.ro/pictures/2015/05/16/lot-2-ceasuri-de-masa-desteptatoare-slava-218564-ac4f1c9a.jpg << yeah right ? quite similar to mom's. [14:05]
asciilifeform: interesting ! with english dial.. [14:05]
asciilifeform: i had nfi these also existed [14:05]
mircea_popescu: export version [14:05]
* asciilifeform had nfi item were ever exported [14:05]
asciilifeform: btw for added lulz, open an american mechanical alarm ( from any period ) some time [14:06]
asciilifeform: 0 ruby , 19th.c escapement, rando pot metal for all parts , etc [14:06]
asciilifeform: the sov item is closer to an enlarged copy of swiss pocket movement [14:06]
* asciilifeform actually dug up the orig schem + repair text, when was repairing [14:06]
mircea_popescu: aha. [14:08]
mircea_popescu: mechanical table clocks in us very truthful witness to the "we too"ism of the place, in the sense it is contemplated here. [14:09]
asciilifeform: the amers seem to have worked from the start on 'how to make the shittiest item from these fine materials', sovok opposite, 'how to make the strongest design from these shite materials' [14:10]
asciilifeform: *shittiest sellable [14:12]
asciilifeform: even the 'shite materials of sovok' comes with an asterisk. there was no impetus for intel-style 'market stratification', so if it was overall +ev to have ~all~ clocks use ruby and beryllium copper gears, then all would, had no reason to have 2 production lines when could 1 [14:13]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480741 << see also apropos [14:14]
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:43 asciilifeform: 'Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality.... When consumers refuse to pay so much more than they feel they have to, Company A's widget fails in the marketplace, and the company is liquidated.' [14:14]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758235 << err, orig thrd [14:15]
a111: Logged on 2014-07-16 19:04 mircea_popescu: "Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality." << hey check out orlov. [14:15]
mircea_popescu: tbh, the industrial reductionism of "better make one good car than three differently bad ones" is perhaps the most notable result to come out of the great soviet industrial experiment. and, amusingly enough, still very poorly understood, as illustrated in all sort and manner of lulz such as say http://trilema.com/2010/masini-bune-si-masini-de-lux/#selection-53.131-53.445 [14:17]
asciilifeform: the 'konsoomer economy' derps are married to not understanding it, so not mega-surprise [14:17]
mircea_popescu: god knows it informs a lot of the strategic and systems design work at the core of the republic. [14:17]
asciilifeform: when you bought a e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896849 , got moar schematics than ~anyone knew what to do with , right in the box . but when buy ipnoje, what you really buy is... what? the privilege to pay crapple for next 1 in 6 mo... [14:20]
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 00:00 asciilifeform was given 'mk61' at same age i think diana_coman's kid is nao [14:20]
asciilifeform: or hundy when battery dies, which comes 1st [14:20]
asciilifeform: ( won't even touch the subj of how the sovok box designers never even entertained as a joke the notion that it'd prevent operator from running certain proggies ) [14:21]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758238 << speaking of, here's some lulz. so i had recently occasion to employ the services of the consul of teh koninkrijk der nederlanden in san jose to interface some diplomatic business with the romanian mission not present here for my convenience. [14:22]
a111: Logged on 2014-07-16 19:09 mircea_popescu: They work to boost revenue by offering an extended warranty or a service plan (made necessary by frequent breakdowns), charging for premium customer service (made necessary by their normal customer service, which consists of a robotic phone maze backed by a few trainees in India who just read aloud from Company B's public web site in a listless, stuttering monotone) and offering numerous enhancements and upgrades (made [14:22]
mircea_popescu: these two countries are not mere neighbours, nor mere allies, but part together of a fucking compact! and yet, the consul has no notion of his correspondents, nor even is their administration advanced enough to provide its diplomats with that most basic tool of all : a fucking list of names and contact details of the ALLIES!!! representatitves. [14:22]
mircea_popescu: no such thing, chick was googling, discovering conflicting information on random webpages neglected for who knows how many years... [14:23]
mircea_popescu: can you believe this ? [14:23]
asciilifeform: this sounds like an asciilifeform episode from coupla yrs ago [14:24]
mircea_popescu: i actually had to fall back on my own secret service background to extract through THAT AVENUE the information that she needed in such a packaging and under such wot signaturs as i could trust, because god fucking help me if she was gonna send shit to random endpoints "culled from the www" [14:24]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform found out that the local copper telco bldg ( a princely 1950s fortress-like thing, with 2 metre-thick walls , diesels, 8 stories of space , etc ) was -- like most similars -- nao a dc colo. so went, naively, to try to price a rack [14:25]
mircea_popescu: and then these things flatter themselves with (purely hallucinated) statehood. yet in any practical sense, the troop of retards posing as "reigning house" of the netherlands (have you seen them btw ?) is sitting atop something infinitely less statal than this here republic. [14:25]
asciilifeform: called up the $monopoly whose plaquard was on the side of bldg. after 4 hrs of phone tag, 'we sold it to $co-nobody-heard-of, it aint ours' [14:25]
asciilifeform: called $co , guesswat [14:25]
mircea_popescu: because at the very least, when alf goes to meet bingoboingo, he doesn't start yelling at airport. [14:25]
asciilifeform: 'we never heard of this thing' [14:25]
asciilifeform: who owns ? only devil knows [14:26]
mircea_popescu: heh. [14:26]
asciilifeform: usg , naturally, but by what structure, can only ask beelzebub [14:26]
mircea_popescu: they lie. simply not open to public. [14:26]
asciilifeform: naturally not, there wasn't a money-takin' hole that could be gotten to with naked eye. [14:26]
mircea_popescu: which is quite substantially different from matters eminently of record, such as "who are, truly, the intended and delcared diplomatic endpoints of so and so pretend-sovereign" [14:27]
asciilifeform: fwiw thing, from what can be seen through the windows ( in those days built with , believe, windows.. ) largely (but not entirely) empty. [14:27]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ownership of telcoisms in usa also nominally matter of official record, at least since at&t divestiture [14:27]
asciilifeform: and subj of elaborate bureaucrowank [14:27]
asciilifeform: but there it was, as opaque as anyffin in eltsin's ru [14:28]
mircea_popescu: great leaps forward, what can i say. [14:28]
asciilifeform: thing was/is 1 of the major local landmarks, not only in sheer mass but in clear 'vhs era' provenance, what with brick and marble facade with little angel frescoes etc [14:29]
asciilifeform: what copper tel. wire still exists in the town, terminates there [14:31]
asciilifeform: ( as does most gsm , on roof ) [14:31]
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Db9ebU8VQAEksT4.jpg << item. wtf is that, the local supermarket manager and his wife ? [14:34]
asciilifeform: based on my naked eye survey of the grounds, the mains transformers could not actually support 'adult sized' colo. and usg dun like small colos, they want http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-25#1904728 , 'all the bodies in 1 hole', so to easier 'we will we will beat' [14:34]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-25 16:40 asciilifeform: oblig : 'Всіх панів до ’дної ями, Буржуїв за буржуями Будем, будем бить! Будем, будем бить!'(tm)(r)(pavlo tichina)(ukr) [14:34]
asciilifeform: so thing lies fallow. [14:34]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wassat ? [14:35]
mircea_popescu: royal fambly, supposedly. in the sense netherlands is a sovereign, or embassies of these papie mache constructions exist. [14:36]
asciilifeform: aa 1 of those [14:36]
asciilifeform: a la brits, swedes, jp , tourist showpieces [14:36]
mircea_popescu: just about, http://trilema.com/2016/petty-private-satisfactions/#selection-65.607-65.893 items. [14:37]
asciilifeform: who ( outside of possib. thailand ? ) has even quasi-working set of royals anymoar [14:37]
asciilifeform: ( and iirc mircea_popescu made case that not them either ) [14:37]
mircea_popescu: not rly my problem. if no jew has butter, let no jew keep jars labelled butted about. [14:38]
asciilifeform: they're exactly == to the angel carvings on that telco thing [14:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: reich is just about at the stage where 'whaddayamean, butter, says right on the jar' 'it's fulla liquishit' 'that's what is butter' [14:41]
mircea_popescu: i suppose in retrospect http://trilema.com/2016/petty-private-satisfactions/#footnote_0_67595 goes exceedinglky well with http://mocky.org/inshAllah/ being exactly the same thing and self-evidently BEFORE the "success". ie, the quatari aren't thus ruined by their windfall -- their pre-existing mental cockroaches are merely evinced by the windfall, but absent that they'd have the same "mental processes", as argentines in [14:42]
mircea_popescu: fact do. [14:42]
mircea_popescu: poor people are poor people BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE, and wealth dun fix this. [14:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's an elementary, imho, case of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905557 [14:43]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:19 asciilifeform: historically, by sharp stick. at least in the case of what's ordinarily called lottery. cuz winning dun banish from the head the cockroaches that made'em play to begin with [14:43]
mircea_popescu: seems that there is in fact a "mentality of the idiot", and quite readily recognized, hence ready http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905630 recognitions. [14:44]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 16:54 BingoBoingo: Her cause can be reduced to that unyielding socialist faith. "It imagined it working, why isn't it?" [14:44]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from my admittedly distant perch , seems that argentina is even further stage of retardation than qatar -- has all kindsa mineral extractables, but manages not even to qatar [14:45]
asciilifeform: entirely possib that if qatar did not have the brits show up to drill , would be still fucking camels nao [14:46]
mircea_popescu: i suppose qatar doesn'rt either -- white devils come to extract. in any case this is how it went back in ceausescu days. whole http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902161 reduces to "man attempted to turn romanians into the white devil" [14:47]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:36 mircea_popescu: but yes, ceausescu's imperialist plans were obviously going to fail by the time mid 70s turned around, and were well and thoroughly doomed in 1980. [14:47]
asciilifeform: 'grandfather rode camel, i ride merc 600, but my grandson will also ride camel' -- i fughet who , in petrostan , but well-known [14:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-05#1422716 << see also [14:48]
a111: Logged on 2016-03-05 18:21 asciilifeform: stalin followed peter's 'colonization with the crown as sole european' model. [14:48]
asciilifeform: well-known model in ru [14:48]
mircea_popescu: it failed over the designated-white-devil's objection to throwing the curve as well as the owned pleb's objection that "they shouldn't have to do shoes every day". [14:49]
a111: Logged on 2015-12-22 14:54 mircea_popescu: the fundamental argentinian-ness of the human mind, "oh, ok, this is what i get paid, now how could i move down what i gottaq do for it ?" really needs the british imperial "fuck you, you don't eat" as typified by lord newton. [14:49]
mircea_popescu: aka "we don't want to BE europe, we just want to JOIN europe". that's what any retarded kid not belonging in school asks misfortunate teacher : how to cast fireballs irl, aka how to be rich while staying poor, aka how to appear without being and so forth. [14:51]
mircea_popescu: but to put the lulz of the original http://trilema.com/2009/doua-curve/ in context : so i come back to romania cca 2007, and some chick is making a "top of romanians in online" which is fulla names i never saw before and contains nobody of the people atthe time i knew made and turrned the net. [14:54]
asciilifeform: i suspect that if zimbabwe were offered to 'join europe' in the sense of 'get payola like greece' , would immediately join, noshit [14:54]
mircea_popescu: her answer to "wtf ios wrong with you" was "well, i never heard of the others, so they don't exist" but the REASON that was the answer was that ~i~ knew who the fuck she was within two hours, because guess what, my mother of all people actually knew her. [14:54]
mircea_popescu: talk about connectivity, right ? who heard of what and who knows what and "hurr durr, embassy but dunno phone numbers, not even of the other dorks in the same line from the same place" and so fucking on. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: and at no fucking point does this drastic disparity bother the morons at all. i can tell you where any random leah lives, and what she last ate, or when she ate last, but then http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905769 as fucking if. [14:56]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-28 17:59 asciilifeform: ( aaand of course they marked it as 'canonical answer' , for then google to auto-return, etc .. ) [14:56]
asciilifeform: in this position ( as in the telco anecdote ) asciilifeform would simply suppose that the public facade is cheap camo , and has ~0 to do with the actual internal wot [14:56]
mircea_popescu: what the everloving fuck is it supposed to achieve, in these nitwits' brains ?! [14:56]
asciilifeform: i.e. it's part of the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-19#568248 structure [14:57]
a111: Logged on 2014-03-19 20:59 asciilifeform: petent at dealing with the human cattle : fastfood providers, supermarkets, the government. Both as employers and providers these specialised bureaucracies have the necessary tools, including cattle prods (or whatever they’re called now, non-lethal something or the other) to correctly handle them. They have the chemicals, they’ve done the research, know the behavioural patterns, have the walls all built to [14:57]
asciilifeform: while the actual nomenklatura has entirely working list for own use [14:57]
mircea_popescu: "we don't know anything about you, and this ignorance enacts you into inexistence notwithstanding you know everything about us, this knowledge doesn't enact us into inexistence". [14:57]
mircea_popescu: somehow, magically, the fact that the cheetah sees the ostrich is not a guarantee of the ostrich's death. [14:58]
mircea_popescu: rather, the fact that the ostrich doesn't see the cheetah's a guarantee -- of the cheeta's inexistence. [14:58]
mircea_popescu: wtf, what sort of dodo brains are required for this nonsense to wash ?! [14:58]
asciilifeform: all that's req'd is for there to be <1 cheeta for >1 battallion of ostrich [14:59]
asciilifeform: i.e. how many are of these chix, vs how many did mircea_popescu eat [14:59]
mircea_popescu: earthly paradise, i don't imagine any cheetah ever complained of good hunting. [14:59]
asciilifeform: 'и волки сыты и овцы целы' (tm)(r) [14:59]
asciilifeform: at least far as the sheep are concerned , 'i aint been eaten yet, so wats the problem' etc [15:00]
mircea_popescu: A+ [15:00]
asciilifeform: dodo is exactly the model [15:00]
mircea_popescu: quite, yes. [15:00]
asciilifeform: as for the diplomats , would mircea_popescu even prefer that 'allcomers' could actually find'em ? [15:02]
asciilifeform: picture if had to stand in a queue of erry idjit who googled [15:02]
asciilifeform: ( and if 'but i'm mircea_popescu , why would i have to stand in queue' --guesswat , already didn't have to , eh. so where is the problem with the mechanism of why didn't have to ? ) [15:02]
mircea_popescu: im not saying there's something wrong from my side, keks. [15:03]
mircea_popescu: i'm just amused at attempt to look at it from other side. [15:03]
asciilifeform: i.e. it's their answer to living in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905147 world [15:03]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 18:09 mircea_popescu: no markings are clear in modern democracy. it's written in the constitution : everyone is to be idemnified for all things they do not read. [15:03]
mircea_popescu: it's kinda mindblowing, at least at first. "srsly, this is how sheep world looks through sheep eyes ?! wow." [15:04]
asciilifeform: as plebe , asciilifeform would in fact prefer if they said up-front ' if yer mother didn't go to school with his majesty's , dun bother knocking ' , it'd waste less of his time [15:04]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, nevermind what i preferred, specifically. it is literally the extent of their job, to be found, this particular set. that's all they're for, like a mcdonalds. [15:04]
mircea_popescu: they don't do anything else. [15:05]
asciilifeform: rright but could do their job , if in fact findable 'like mcdonalds' ? [15:05]
asciilifeform: or gotta 'unprincipled exception' to even ~begin~ to do the job [15:05]
mircea_popescu: yes lol! all they do is fuck with paperwork, literally their job is "endpoint of X supposed sovereign in Y supposed sovereign lands" [15:05]
mircea_popescu: the item as encountered in practice is ~equivalent to the sovok era "telephone receiver locked in box" [15:05]
asciilifeform: i suspect that if all-comers could actually submit the paper , place would looke like sovok 'avir' [15:06]
mircea_popescu: "why is telephone in an office it doesn't serve ?" [15:06]
asciilifeform: i.e. decade wait for process [15:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, so you make it larger, wtf. this is like saying "if anyone who wanted a happy meal could get one, place would look like disneyworld":. the fucking point is for it to yes, do just that. entire existence of the fiat sovereigns is ~predicatged~ on people doing just this. [15:06]
asciilifeform: recall how ameri-corps run their 'tech support' [15:07]
mircea_popescu: they gain exactly nothing from their failure to self-represent, exactly like a hidden mcdonalds does nothing to forward the aggenda of rooseveletism [15:07]
mircea_popescu: but this isn't tech support! [15:07]
mircea_popescu: this is the ~advertising~. [15:07]
asciilifeform: where's the operative diff ? embassy is 99% of the time 'tech support' for immigration paper [15:07]
mircea_popescu: thatd be the consular section. [15:08]
mircea_popescu: embassy is 99% of the time support for local businessmen. [15:08]
asciilifeform: a [15:08]
asciilifeform: then i got nuffin [15:08]
mircea_popescu: that's what embassy does, if joe the turkish merchant is in greece, and he decides he wants to give moe the turkish merchant his ankara house to manage, the turkish embassy in greece takes some paper from him and sends it over. [15:09]
mircea_popescu: there is NO benefit for the turkish state to hide the endpoint of this. [15:09]
mircea_popescu: on the contrary -- the more turkish merchants rely on this service of the turkish state through its embassy, the better for the turkish state, it can better convince them to pay taxes. [15:10]
mircea_popescu: whereas the less they use it, the more the greek state could claim they're in fact greek merchants, and tax them instead. [15:10]
mircea_popescu: whole fucking point of embassies flows from this, "we dun wanna lose taxable base through travel" [15:10]
mircea_popescu: moeover, the 2nd function of embassy is to collect data. legally, not illegally, it's not the secret service, it's the diplomatic service. what confidence would you as a putative ivan groznii put in data flowing through your embassies when these sad concoctions were manned by idiots so fucking inept, they don't even have a black book with the phone numbers of ~their fucking colleagues~. every 15yo boy has a book with his c [15:14]
mircea_popescu: lassmates' phone numbers as a first step to successful sexual congress, but not these dorks. [15:14]
* asciilifeform buys [15:15]
mircea_popescu: what would you think of a lord who actually googled for your key ? didn't have it in keyriong, something like wot.deedbot DIDNT EVEN EXIST [15:15]
mircea_popescu: they just fucking googled, general purpose tool applied to particular task, 0 shits given. [15:15]
mircea_popescu: would the republic look much like a sovereign if that was the average practice ? [15:15]
mircea_popescu: rando schmucks drop in here every day, fail the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905146 test with flying colors, they could be fiat sovereign diplomatic core without skipping a bit. becauise the pretenders factually and experimentally verifiedly are quite that inept, yes. [15:17]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 18:09 asciilifeform: gotta wonder re the thought process. door clearly marked 'If you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.' eh . [15:17]
asciilifeform: embassy as i understand it, as concept , pre-dates not only pubkey but even telegraph , and was never fully upgraded , rly expects to operate on meat-to-meat ( and witness usg delightfully exploiting this, creats all kinds fake embassies , i went coupla yrs ago to , believe, tour of 'iraq embassy' , 100% usg.blue creation ) [15:17]
asciilifeform: or let's even recall that 'bitcoin embassy' mircea_popescu dug up [15:18]
mircea_popescu: it seems to me a ridoinculous chunk of nonsense, "embassy was never upgraded". tell you what -- an army is a group of men assembled to rectify the mistakes of diplomats. the only item more keenly in synch with technology is the embassy -- step ahead of military. [15:19]
asciilifeform: rright and when no army, what then means embassy ? [15:19]
mircea_popescu: you got me there. [15:19]
mircea_popescu: supposedly, "everything", in practice same exact "everything" as seen in marriage. [15:19]
asciilifeform: entirely possible to argue that no such thing as 'nederlanden' embassy, it's simply branch office of washington's [15:19]
asciilifeform: rly they oughtta take a page from the old sovok, and unify the thing, save on cost of printing stationary [15:20]
asciilifeform: there was no e.g. 'embassy of latvia', only of sovok [15:20]
mircea_popescu: well, they did this, ro-nl are in such a compact. [15:21]
asciilifeform: whereas today, behold, you can go into 'embassy of latvia', where folx hand-picked by washington dos will show you in which queue to sit etc [15:21]
mircea_popescu: ie, you can use any eu embassy indistinctly. at least in theory. in practice -- they're fucked. [15:21]
asciilifeform: evidently [15:21]
mircea_popescu: anyway, one aspect of this is fo sho : traditional (with a view of only) function of embassy is as "den of corruption", ie, they acquire over time intimate knowledge of detail, can help you do things. [15:25]
mircea_popescu: no such thing still available, from white world embassies, at least not at the level where it should be. the iranis, eg, still do this for their citizens. the usgtards don't because they have no citizens, it's all govt entreprises and plebs. [15:26]
mircea_popescu: the euros are the saddest of them all -- they dun have the state entreprises, notrly, and they dun have the other half either, not really, it's a wonder they persevere. [15:26]
mircea_popescu: (very typically EMPTY, an eu embassy, too. besides purely ceremonial "third cousin of president/king taking vacation", there's ~nothing happening) [15:26]
BingoBoingo: This city is littered with those things [15:37]
BingoBoingo: UK embassy here is roughly equal to a small clubhouse with pool and Satellite tv. [15:38]
mircea_popescu: ah yeah, the uk embassies. that was a lulz of all time during the "union" while it lasted -- the brits had the first useful, and perhaps the last functioning, embassy network. [15:39]
mircea_popescu: but that "best-by" date's sometime before rhodesia's end, i guess. [15:40]
BingoBoingo: I mean it has mega fence, but... the place is just about a country club minus the land for golfing. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: the fencing's the other fucking thing. who the fuck heard of fenced in embassies anyways. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: ie, if the locals wanna come over, you wanna not let them ?! wtf, are you fucked in the head ? and then go about spending money to makle events to raise profile ? while at the same time throwing away the freely had curious visitors ? [15:43]
BingoBoingo: Romania has the obligatory "Sleep on this stoop and you get fucked" fence to keep the pichis off the porch, but otherwise clear walk to the door. [15:43]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, romania does a lot of things right though i suspect by accident. ie, none of the idiotic glass walsl, either, you visit you sit down in front of old style desk, like sane people. [15:44]
mircea_popescu: generally there's a girly around ready to hand some fliers or w/e to whatever adventurous locals. [15:45]
mircea_popescu: when i visited the one in argentina, they were just entertaining a local older woman with a pile of 1910s era letters from her romanian-immigrated ancestors. [15:45]
mircea_popescu: the old woman wanted to know if she maybe has a lot of castles-in-spain style "unknwon inheritance", typical argentine thought process. [15:46]
BingoBoingo: Entertaining her with the marketing budget is the point. [15:47]
BingoBoingo: As opposed to the stories I have heard from US embassy. [15:47]
BingoBoingo: Where no one is particularly welcome and everything uses EMAIL as a gatekeeper. [15:47]
mircea_popescu: us embassy works sorta like an us airport. [15:52]
mircea_popescu: you don't get much done, you're uncomfortable while it's happening, and they have very strange notions of ritual purity, unparalleled even by the shiite. [15:53]
mircea_popescu: i suppose one can't fairly discuss the matter without pointing out that the ogilvy-derivative concept of "pr agency" is precisely this, witness to the usg's self-aware failure to develop a diplomatic service and a woprking embassy network, leaving the english as the last practitioner of the florentine art. [15:58]
mircea_popescu: (an argentine, btw) [15:59]
BingoBoingo: Well, how could they when they went from Seward through the end of WWII without Europe slapping them? [16:00]
BingoBoingo: Lincoln winning the war of Northern Aggression in this respect was a European failure. [16:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, might appreciate https://www.agamarvel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/aga_ogilvy_booklet.pdf rathert a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764714 item, at least by the lights of the anglos. [16:01]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 02:51 asciilifeform recently reread 'tigerfibel', really a megaclassic of technical writing for all time [16:01]
asciilifeform: notbad [16:05]
mircea_popescu: note that the core of the advice the chief practitioner of what's left of us economy consists of... !!!!!!DO NOT!!!!!!! pretend to lordship!!!! [16:10]
mircea_popescu: no bowler hats, no front doors, know your place plebe [16:10]
mircea_popescu: his other advice ? study! [16:12]
mircea_popescu: it's like the fucktards are trying to build an empire on knives, but bereft of a blade and missing a handle. [16:12]
asciilifeform: 'There are certain universal rules. Dress quietly and shave well. Do not wear a bowler hat. Go to the back door (most salesmen go to the front door, a manoeuvre always resented by maid and mistress alike)' [16:14]
asciilifeform: very obv from the '30s brit orig [16:14]
asciilifeform: ( most ameri-housing either has no back door , or glass thing that goes into fenced yard and defo no marketer would ever go there, liable to be bitten by dog or worse ) [16:15]
mircea_popescu: quite. [16:15]
mircea_popescu: back before roosevelt and his successors permanently fixed the quality of life, a man's household (in which he kept a single woman and her issue, plus some servants) had a front door for peers and a back door for servants and suppliers [16:16]
asciilifeform: as i understand 'aga' is ~the~ prototype for the current-day ubiquitous kitchen stove [16:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i know, lived in just such back in orcistan [16:16]
mircea_popescu: the butler (head servant) generally opened the front door the head maid did not open the back door -- usually you'd get one of the scullery maids. [16:16]
asciilifeform: and ubiquitous terminology there to this day, survived revolution and eltsins alike, парадный вход / черный вход ( 'parade entrance' , i.e. for people, 'black entrance' , i.e. for servants + garbage ) [16:17]
mircea_popescu: the male staff was generally butler, gardener, chauffeur, one or two handymen [plus, of course, all the military folk, in older times]. the female staff was a maid for the wife, a maid or nanny for each child, a main cook, possibly a help, and a pair to n indistinct maids, brushing the silverware, abrading the tables one layer each week, scrubbing the floors etc. [16:18]
mircea_popescu: these latter were sometimes used as venereal-undiseased fuckrelief for the older son but generally, it's a harem with very little fucking going around. [16:19]
mircea_popescu: but in any case, the reasonably well to do man in the city kept dozen+ females + half dozen males in bread and shoes with little difficulty, and plenty of dough leftover for consols. [16:21]
asciilifeform: i suspect largely evaporated by '30s tho so not sure what the author was thinking [16:22]
asciilifeform: 'The AGA is the only cooker in the world with a guaranteed maximum fuel consumption. It is guaranteed to burn less than £4 worth of fuel a year….. Stress the fact that no cook can make her AGA burn more fuel than this, however stupid, extravagant or careless she may be, or however much she may cook. If more fuel is consumed, it is being stolen, and the police should be called in immediately' << strikes me as peculiar claim ( what, [16:24]
asciilifeform: price of coal was a constant ? or vendor proposed to guarantee it ? ) [16:24]
mircea_popescu: this, quite exactly ~this~ is the substance of hitler's lament, " It is similar in the world. It just does not work, to have 46 million British people block 40 million km² of earth and simply declare: God gave it to us, and 20 years ago we got some from you too this is ours now, and will not give it back. And France, And France with its not very fertile earth, almost 80 people on a square kilometer, yet they have over 9 [16:27]
mircea_popescu: million km of trees. Germany with its over 80 million people does not have more than 600,000 km. " [16:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, price of coal was fixed yes. [16:27]
asciilifeform: how'd that work ? sovok-style ? [16:28]
mircea_popescu: ayup. [16:28]
mircea_popescu: it worked because aforesaid british embassy set, and so everyone going to port in english ports bought coal. so they subsidized. [16:28]
asciilifeform: a++ [16:28]
asciilifeform: while it lasts, i suppose [16:28]
mircea_popescu: recall ru fleet taking 3 years to reach japan ? "no access to british ports" [16:29]
asciilifeform: indeed [16:29]
mircea_popescu: also 4 pounds is an IMMENSE qty of coal. [16:29]
asciilifeform: coal miner earned, wat, 6 pounds, iirc , in period [16:30]
asciilifeform: in yr. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: silver is 15 dollars an ounce, by consequence 240 dollars per pound coal is ~80 dollars a short ton [16:30]
mircea_popescu: now how do you propose to burn three tons of coal in a year ? [16:31]
mircea_popescu: let alone TWELVE [16:31]
asciilifeform: in an 'aga', which burns 24/7 , lol [16:31]
mircea_popescu: even so. [16:31]
asciilifeform: as i understand thing doubled as furnace for room heat [16:31]
mircea_popescu: possibru yea [16:31]
asciilifeform: how else to explain the 'feature' where 'you dun need to light it! burns and burns' [16:32]
mircea_popescu: you ever burned coal ? [16:32]
asciilifeform: tbf ru peasant stove worked ~same [16:32]
asciilifeform: certainly burned coal [16:32]
asciilifeform: we had thread where i looked for photo of in what [16:32]
mircea_popescu: so you know i has this very great capacity for passivization, you can in fact start a fire again from a coal fire 6 hours old [16:32]
asciilifeform: indeed can [16:32]
mircea_popescu: right [16:32]
asciilifeform: thing is 'own pilot light' [16:32]
asciilifeform: in e.g. arctic circle , 'aga' would be a++ product [16:36]
asciilifeform: as it is, i dun fully grasp the appeal [16:36]
asciilifeform: seems like was a pyre to conspicuously burn money in, as it was [16:36]
asciilifeform: marketed to same landed gentry folx who e.g. kept own coal-fired generators stocked 24/7 on the estate , in early days of electric light [16:39]
asciilifeform: *stoked [16:40]
asciilifeform: ( and prior to that, in age of gas light -- kept own gasworx running 24/7 ) [16:42]
mircea_popescu: london is a shithole. half the year wet and cold. [17:25]
asciilifeform: that's gotta be the key. [17:25]
asciilifeform: i imagine that if that jp micro reactor thing had existed in '30s -- london would be fulla'em [17:26]
asciilifeform: the ultimate aga. [17:26]
asciilifeform: at the wattage a reasonably-sized brit lord's house might theoretically have appetite for, the fuel would last for century or 2 [17:29]
asciilifeform: ( for comparison, standard sovok sub reactor, somewhat larger affair, approx the size of mircea_popescu's bmw , was good for 20-30y of 300-400 MW ) [17:30]
mircea_popescu: nb. [17:31]
asciilifeform: granted the jp item not as efficient, if you recall it's the pellet thing , built for constant output [17:31]
asciilifeform: but otoh it dun require a crew of 4 d00dz raising/lowering rods 24/7 [17:32]
* asciilifeform bbl:tea [17:33]
mircea_popescu: these days, with robotic rodding.... [17:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly, they ~had~ servos and even had pdp-like comp but did not trust the latter to connect to the former [18:54]
asciilifeform: iirc we had detailed thrd re subj [18:54]
mircea_popescu: aha. [18:54]
asciilifeform: thing was run kinda like trinque's wallet. [18:54]
* asciilifeform recently read a pretty spiffy , and i dare say mircea_popescu-flavoured ( good % was re how, where, whom, the folx fucked ) memoir of sovok 'akula' sub officer in '90s. d00d was moar or less 'meat computer' [18:56]
asciilifeform: ( the 48,000 tonne thing, btw, in natostan called for some reason 'typhoon', rather than the smaller. pretty interesting machine in own right, largest undersea vessel ever built ) [18:58]
asciilifeform: $item was interesting largely for the description of eltsin-era navy , what with 'get spare parts somewhere, we won't say where' , 'you'll be paid next year' , questionable rations, boats sinking in dock, & related joys [19:03]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/pgRtg << related, in re orc naval thematic. [20:17]
* BingoBoingo has trinque's bootstrap.sh running. Going for a walk myself. [20:22]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch18/ffa_calc__adb.htm << final ch18 still working on the accompanying text [20:42]
asciilifeform: patch also cut & signed . is pretty large at ~50kB , but actually ranks behind ch14, 15, 11 (not speaking of genesis/1 lol) [20:46]
asciilifeform: if anyone's impatient, i'll link to the vpatch/seal, otherwise it'll wait for the text [20:47]
billymg: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905107 < i like the idea of a dev branch alongside a production branch. is the idea that after after a patch (or set of patches) is deemed mature enough it will then be added to the main branch? [20:53]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 17:14 mircea_popescu: billymg, if you're happy with it, one thing you could do is patch your testing suite as an alternate patch off mp-wp genesis this way people looking to test can just use it (and patch atop it if need be) rather than write from scratch. [20:53]
billymg: in terms of test suite, i didn't actually write any automated tests for mp-wp, i only meant the manual testing i did, plus reading my own patch a few times [20:54]
billymg: if that's what you meant by test suite, just to clarify [20:54]
billymg: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905200 < sounds good, i think it's in a good state. will try to have it patched on top of hanbot's on saturday [20:56]
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 21:23 Mocky: billymg: if your tinymce patch is ready this weekend I'll test it with my setup. [20:56]
asciilifeform: phf: i found & removed the last uniturd ( was in the manifest.txt , from the day i made it ) . this however means that there in fact lies a uniturd in the 18 patch ( the removal line , naturally . ) after this i expect no moar . [20:57]
billymg: diana_coman: related to the test branch idea, if you have anything of yours you could point me to, for figuring out a v-centric testing flow, would be appreciated [20:57]
asciilifeform: ftr : grep --color='auto' -P -n "[\x80-\xFF]" file locates uniturds ( if yer 'grep' supports perlism ) [21:00]
* asciilifeform bbl:meat [21:01]
mircea_popescu: billymg, no, the idea is that you maintain a test suite. [23:44]
mircea_popescu: as in yes, automated tests, like say eucrypt has. [23:44]
mircea_popescu: not an emergency item or anything, but i thought you already had it, and that's what you meant by testing. [23:45]
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