Forum logs for 14 Nov 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: default firmware is known-boobytrapped [00:01]
BingoBoingo: AMT bad or...? [00:02]
asciilifeform: a la microshit. [00:03]
BingoBoingo: The Ubiquiti or the Biostar [00:11]
BingoBoingo: !!up hubud [01:14]
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes. [01:14]
BingoBoingo: Hello hubud [01:14]
hubud: Hi [01:14]
BingoBoingo: Who is your daddy and what does he do? [01:15]
hubud: stumbled on trilema blog last week, been reading nearly nonstop since.. [01:15]
hubud: He's a goat farmer [01:15]
BingoBoingo: Does he love it? [01:15]
hubud: More or less [01:15]
BingoBoingo: Poor goats [01:16]
hubud: He treats them well [01:16]
BingoBoingo: Ah, love the goats, but indifference to the work of goats [01:17]
BingoBoingo: So, what's your favorite trilema piece so far? [01:18]
hubud: Problems of today [01:21]
hubud: or fabulous hash function [01:21]
hubud: still groking [01:21]
BingoBoingo: Just wait till you get to the classics [01:26]
hubud: Oh yeah, there are some juicy juicy ones [01:28]
hubud: Hard to find a sane btc community these days [01:29]
BingoBoingo: One you probably need to read sooner is [01:31]
BingoBoingo: Critical for understanding WOT'tronics [01:31]
BingoBoingo: !!Up hubud [01:52]
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes. [01:52]
BingoBoingo: Perhaps register a key while you are here? You never know when you will need it. [01:52]
BingoBoingo: !!help [01:52]
deedbot: [01:52]
hubud: Thanks @BoingoBoingo [01:53]
BingoBoingo: De nada [02:00]
hubud: !!register pubkey-url [02:15]
deedbot: Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes. [02:15]
hubud: !!register pubkey-url [02:16]
deedbot: Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes. [02:16]
hubud: doesn't like my key [02:17]
hubud: !!register [02:18]
deedbot: 2663CCEE8A986D69753970E5453FED117075F0A8 registered as hubud. [02:18]
davout: in other pedos [05:05]
diana_coman: <- confirmed I do NOT use any nextprime or other "rng"-parts from gpg current rsatron prototype simply grabs nbits from fg, flips the 2 top bits and 1 bottom bit as per previous discussion and then checks if result is prime if prime then keep, otherwise discard and try again no "add 2 until prime" or other such thing [05:19]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik "nextprime" or anything like it is not used [05:19]
diana_coman: and by "flips" I mean sets them to 1 [05:22]
apeloyee: fwiw I just realized that this ^ leaks a little via the modulus [06:01]
apeloyee: if the modulus is M, then p,q>M/2^2048 (because p,q<2^2048) [06:02]
apeloyee: if "no leaks on principle", this needs to be dealt with [06:02]
apeloyee: can't see how to plug it completely though [06:04]
apeloyee: if M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047, then ~20 first bits of p and q are known [06:05]
apeloyee: << not quite. for encryption, if I get your modulus, and you actually want to read my messages, I can generate a public exponent between M/2 and (say) 3M/4, and attach it to the message in plaintext. [06:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-08 22:03 asciilifeform: not knowing the e has exactly same effect as not knowing half of the n. [06:09]
apeloyee: assuming M is a modulus of a useful RSA key, this will work [06:09]
apeloyee: (i.e. M is not prime, and not single-digit) [06:10]
apeloyee: *p and q not signle digit [06:18]
spyked: <-- this. ftr, current adalisp prototype (not-yet-published and thus yet-vapourware!) represents "pointers" as indices in a statically-allocated array. [06:22]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:36 asciilifeform: and get rid of the pointers. [06:22]
apeloyee: grrr. "M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047" << 2^4065, of course [06:25]
diana_coman: apeloyee, if I understand that correctly basically the only way to plug that leak would be to give up on diddling p and q, including setting size which would mean just get random pairs of primes until their product fits the desired number of bits for the key obv this lands into the trouble of having one of them too small [06:25]
spyked: <-- strings are (lisp) lists-of-characters. which, as it is, unfortunately makes parsing and evaluating builtin functions (e.g. cons, car, cdr) a pain in the ass. can be structured cleanly though. also, this makes it not a simple matter of find+replace in shithub scheme.adb. [06:25]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:35 asciilifeform: phf: ideally i'd get rid of Ada.Strings , full stop [06:25]
spyked: <-- I did not contemplate bytecode representation, but this would indeed make matters simpler (including above problem of dealing with strings). [06:27]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:36 asciilifeform: and rewrite the parser per se in scheme ( have it be present as commented bytecode constant ) [06:27]
spyked: <-- not sure if possible with ffatronic ada subset, though, because of "no dynamic objects" restriction. in my (yet-unpublished) prototype, lisp memory size is a static knob. [06:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-13 19:47 asciilifeform: and not 'as much as you want' but up to B bytes, with B given on commandline and stackframed on warmup. [06:29]
spyked: current lispm ads: if teh real-life gods decide to leave my ass alone, I might publish the whole thing over the weekend. [06:32]
apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense. [06:33]
diana_coman: apeloyee, my first thought went that way but then on one hand this just makes the interval larger basically and on the other hand I have no idea how to even evaluate the compromise (i.e. how large interval is large enough anyway, leaving aside that the how big is big enough for p and q is not that terribly clear either -at least not to me) in other words I can see it as an improvement but I can't actually evaluate it clearly [06:44]
diana_coman: that being said, I can't quite see it being any *worse* than this affair with fixed size AND fixed top bits [06:46]
apeloyee: same here. [06:49]
mircea_popescu: !!withdraw 0.207429 165QE3hRB3x5781eQoxFjN1pdZndyzZJmv [08:33]
deedbot: Get your OTP: [08:33]
asciilifeform: << what keeps a million enemies from offering false pubexps in false conversations, preventing us from agreeing on a genuine one ? [09:12]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:09 apeloyee: << not quite. for encryption, if I get your modulus, and you actually want to read my messages, I can generate a public exponent between M/2 and (say) 3M/4, and attach it to the message in plaintext. [09:12]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no communication among unknown parties. someone somewhere gives you a key. [09:14]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha! [09:14]
asciilifeform: i was answering apeloyee's odd 'but i can give you my pubexp later, over unauthenticated plaintext, anywhere' oddity. [09:14]
mircea_popescu: a. yeah. [09:15]
asciilifeform: i.e. until we have one another's mods ~and~ pubexps! we're not really rsaparties. with all that flows from this. [09:16]
asciilifeform: <<< >>> [09:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:25 diana_coman: apeloyee, if I understand that correctly basically the only way to plug that leak would be to give up on diddling p and q, including setting size which would mean just get random pairs of primes until their product fits the desired number of bits for the key obv this lands into the trouble of having one of them too small [09:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 . [09:17]
mircea_popescu: << i'd expect a few thousand items at 15kb each or so, so maybe 100mb total ? [09:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 03:58 lobbes: << time will tell. Depends on how much the logs-to-date worth of archives end up being in drive space. Bandwidth also a factor. Many things left to be sussed out. [09:17]
asciilifeform: imho ^ is The Right Thing, at least for folx who aren't generating keys in a burning hurry [09:17]
mircea_popescu: kinda curious how this bet works out irl. [09:17]
asciilifeform: and diana_coman , there is no 'trouble if one is too small', you throw out ~both~ if the test fails [09:18]
mircea_popescu: << lol. don't forget to come out for air, trilema is larger than what can be braved in one go. you'll break yourself. [09:18]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 06:15 hubud: stumbled on trilema blog last week, been reading nearly nonstop since.. [09:18]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I meant in the final pair i.e. you get p=3 and q=2^4095+1 sort of thing ofc throw both in a pair if product not right size but if not enforcing any size condition at all on p and q then you can end up with any small prime too [09:21]
asciilifeform: << this is therightthing. but note that not only is not a problem, but the behaviour is fundamental to ffa. in ada a structure is considered nondynamic if its size doesn't change at run time. not if 'magic number' size, like in overflowlang. [09:21]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:22 spyked: <-- this. ftr, current adalisp prototype (not-yet-published and thus yet-vapourware!) represents "pointers" as indices in a statically-allocated array. [09:21]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:29 spyked: <-- not sure if possible with ffatronic ada subset, though, because of "no dynamic objects" restriction. in my (yet-unpublished) prototype, lisp memory size is a static knob. [09:21]
asciilifeform: spyked: i use generic, which (quite unlike in cpp) results in a fully static structure that is created at runtime [09:22]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: calculate the probability of fatally small p or q. [09:23]
asciilifeform: in an honest rng [09:23]
mircea_popescu: << amply discussed here, "pedos the next gay-like oppressed community". [09:24]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 10:05 davout: in other pedos [09:24]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, for starters I don't know what is "large enough" aka "not fatally small" p or q [09:24]
asciilifeform: understand, setting the top bit won't help you, i can just as easily say 'but what if the middle 2000 bits in my prime end up zeros!' [09:24]
mircea_popescu: fortunately for everyone, the state of the needy is croaking before managing to complete its self-defined mission. [09:24]
mircea_popescu: << this is no leak it is a restatement of "first two bits set to 11, so you only use 2045 bit keys" [09:25]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:02 apeloyee: if the modulus is M, then p,q>M/2^2048 (because p,q<2^2048) [09:25]
davout: mircea_popescu: i remembered mostly the "pedos as afraid of women who'll identify them as beta cux" [09:25]
mircea_popescu: yes, you can expect that your modulus will lead 10 more often than 11. but this is in the book already. [09:25]
mircea_popescu: davout ima deal with this prime thing then fish out the convos if you'd like. [09:26]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: generally speaking, anything one could conceivably walk over, is unsafe - i.e. primes smaller than the number of femtoseconds in a millenium, if i had to give a heuristic [09:26]
davout: prime things first [09:26]
mircea_popescu: << let's keep this binary. are you saying that if the first 2 octets of N are 1 therefore the first 2 octets of BOTH p and q must also be 1 ? [09:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:05 apeloyee: if M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047, then ~20 first bits of p and q are known [09:28]
asciilifeform: the other thing, diana_coman , is that if enemy knows that you will never use a p or q below limit l -- he can start bruting from l [09:28]
asciilifeform: so pegging primes min size does 0. [09:28]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, myeah, hence my "what does it even do for me simply making this interval larger" [09:29]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: octets?? [09:29]
mircea_popescu: bytes [09:29]
mircea_popescu: i have a serious issue with bit/byte confusion trying to get myself out of it somehow. [09:29]
mircea_popescu: ftr, octet is the fucking right word for 8 bits. a byte should be 64 bits these days. [09:29]
mircea_popescu: literally, what the machine bytes. [09:29]
asciilifeform: let's settle another matter -- which bit is 'first' [09:30]
mircea_popescu: left to right. most significant bit first. [09:30]
asciilifeform: aite [09:31]
mircea_popescu: mathematical ordering. [09:31]
* asciilifeform often says 'eldest' , as in ru [09:31]
mircea_popescu: works. [09:31]
* diana_coman found herself using "octet" in code because of going nuts with bytes/bits otherwise [09:31]
mircea_popescu: anyway, the same problem exists in the tail : if N is 000000001 at the end, i know BOTH p and q were 11111111 last 8 bit [09:31]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ikr! [09:32]
asciilifeform: problem only properly exists in the tail ('youngest') bit, where carry is 0 [09:32]
mircea_popescu: also exists in head. [09:32]
mircea_popescu: the only way to have an N = 11111111.... is if both q and p are 1111111...... [09:32]
asciilifeform: observe, you cannot say anything re p,q from he middle bits of pq (or rsa would be useless) [09:33]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. carry exists. [09:33]
asciilifeform: srsly try it [09:33]
mircea_popescu: 11111111×11111111 = 1111111000000001 [09:33]
mircea_popescu: sometimes i suspect you never do binary calculation at all asciilifeform [09:33]
asciilifeform: where's the ... in there [09:34]
asciilifeform: this is sloppy thinking [09:34]
mircea_popescu: 11111111.....×11111111.... = 1111111..... [09:34]
mircea_popescu: 1111111100000000×1111111100000000 = 11111110000000010000000000000000 if you much prefer. [09:34]
asciilifeform: ok i misread a leading ... [09:35]
asciilifeform: otherwise yes [09:35]
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's entirely no way out of this. for purely mathematical reasons. [09:35]
mircea_popescu: however you "cut" the problem out, the surface of the cut becomes the problem [09:36]
mircea_popescu: and it will be larger than this surface. [09:36]
mircea_popescu: of course, the odds of getting a FF FF q and a FF FF p are 1/2^32 [09:37]
mircea_popescu: which is to say, small. [09:37]
* asciilifeform doesn't expect to see a pill against this, other than he already obvious engineering margin of using respectable number of bits of entropy for whole thing [09:37]
asciilifeform: *the already [09:37]
mircea_popescu: kinda why we have 2045 "even if less would be enough" [09:38]
asciilifeform: aha. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: there ~are~ extension attacks, but those typically require more than a dozen bits known. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: (on proper rng. on bs prng / kochgpg etc, they don't.) [09:39]
mircea_popescu: kinda why faux rng calibration is done on 1blocks in the first place. [09:39]
mircea_popescu: "all you need to know is where the signature 1blocks come in the "rng", as they will be preserved by binary mult, can be seen in modulus." [09:40]
asciilifeform: iirc most recent black magic gives you polynomialtime breakage if >=.22b of bitness b of p or q bits are known [09:40]
asciilifeform: ( bottom or top consec. bits ) [09:41]
mircea_popescu: afaik "shadow brokers" didn't release this principal rsa exploitation tool of "teh equation group", but : imagine you have a machine a) working on your own special-purpose made prng and b) generating rsa keys all the time and on call. [09:41]
mircea_popescu: you now look for the signature blocks of a in b, and have the whole show. [09:42]
asciilifeform: generally there are cheaper ways to make use of 'key' to chump rng [09:43]
mircea_popescu: hey, money is no object empire. [09:44]
mircea_popescu: moreover, VERY GOOD (for some purposes) prngs are eminently sign-block-ing. [09:44]
mircea_popescu: nobody cares for as long as they're used for what they're intended to be used, such as reproducible scientific simulation. [09:44]
asciilifeform: the archetypical example is 'digits of pi' [09:44]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, pi is not periodic. [09:45]
asciilifeform: dun need periodicity for rng diddle, necessarily [09:45]
mircea_popescu: in the scheme discussed above, periodicity is specifically the point. [09:45]
asciilifeform: or mircea_popescu was thinking of the particular one illustrated earlier [09:45]
asciilifeform: aa [09:45]
asciilifeform: reminds me, not long before the beginning of the time of dulap troubles, and the isp winter, asciilifeform was experimenting with statistical tests of the ~moduli~ a la dieharder [09:47]
asciilifeform: looking for any kind of outliers by any conceivable measure [09:48]
asciilifeform: within a given bitness category [09:49]
asciilifeform: but this is a thread for another time. [09:49]
mircea_popescu: the problem here is structure, you have to have the "emitter" pretty well identified to make useful pattern measurements. [09:49]
mircea_popescu: this, amusingly, is an exact rehash of your antenna detection discussion [09:49]
mircea_popescu: (as it's exactly what it is) [09:49]
mircea_popescu: << this was part of the original speccing of "unequal length p, q" etc. that line of thought withered and died, see the whole thing in the log it's worth the read. [09:51]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:33 apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense. [09:51]
mircea_popescu: though /me is consoled to see bright minds have the same intuitive inclination. [09:51]
asciilifeform: i'ma half a mind to build that antenna , btw, and see how long before confiscated [09:51]
asciilifeform: betcha it could live for years. [09:51]
mircea_popescu: << it's worse in that the per-unit-effort benefit it delivers is smaller than the benefit we would accrue by simply keeping the current system and increasing the bitsize. [09:52]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:46 diana_coman: that being said, I can't quite see it being any *worse* than this affair with fixed size AND fixed top bits [09:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very likely. you're a person of interest, what, who\s gonna confiscate your shit. [09:52]
asciilifeform: lol [09:53]
mircea_popescu: the fundamental imperial problem (see eg ) is that good imperial can never act for fear waiting may pay more. [09:53]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-04 14:22 mircea_popescu: consider the following point : the recent las vegas shooter had bought a room and had ferried a quarter ton of materiel up there and then the concert started, and he sat. [09:53]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is that [09:54]
asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd. [09:55]
mircea_popescu: this is the problem with "complexify the code machine" tendency. somehow it appears intuitively evident that having a portion of the code INSIDE the machine is "a more complex, therefore a more secure system". it is not. 100% of the key belongs in the key. [09:55]
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental, and perhaps only result to date of cryptology. [09:56]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform give it a decade. [09:56]
mircea_popescu: :D! [09:57]
mircea_popescu: (there's a reason imperials have that problem -- it's called "technological progress".) [09:57]
asciilifeform: it's mostly manual work, mircea_popescu [09:57]
asciilifeform: so cost dun move much [09:57]
asciilifeform: the microscope per se is 1940s tech. [09:57]
mircea_popescu: oh, you mean like warehouse management ? [09:57]
mircea_popescu: or like driving ? [09:57]
mircea_popescu: OR PLAYING GO ? [09:57]
asciilifeform: no, like appendectomy. [09:58]
mircea_popescu: dun dun DUN! [09:58]
mircea_popescu: it will sadden you to find surgery is highly roboticized, in the sense of ~60% of surgeon man-hours put in by 1967 surgeons are now done by machine. [09:58]
asciilifeform: it's a surgery, d00d strips carefully the layers , takes pics [09:58]
asciilifeform: aha and the 40 remaining % gets to charge same or moar [09:59]
mircea_popescu: same or moar in today's dollah. [09:59]
asciilifeform: because the talent pool aint any bigger [09:59]
mircea_popescu: which evidently can't buy any flotillas. [09:59]
asciilifeform: separate item neh [09:59]
mircea_popescu: (if it could -- usg would have some) [09:59]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so separate. wait a decade, bitcoin appreciates. [09:59]
asciilifeform: i can't picture it appreciating to the point where i can spare 30k worth of it [10:00]
mircea_popescu: poor people can't picture how richdom goes! [10:00]
mircea_popescu: << this is alternatively a perfectly acceptable approach expensive as all fuck though. prolly should be the standard for homemade keys. [10:01]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 . [10:01]
asciilifeform: re 30k, it's moar than enuff for own motherfucking microscope [10:06]
asciilifeform: supposing i had where to keep one, and weren't gearing up for escape [10:06]
asciilifeform: ( a preowned SEM is mebbe 10k ) [10:07]
asciilifeform: sorta lulzy to learn that a day of bulldozering costs moar than a used bulldozer. [10:08]
mircea_popescu: davout re pedo discussion : as well as period lulz such as [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-06-30 23:00 mircea_popescu: much saner to put all gays in jail because "they offend baby jezuz" than to put all pedos in jail because "they harm little kids" [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-05-07 05:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i'm preparing popcorn for when they finally unearth the pedophilia issue. so far swimming in the brackish water of imaginary problems that are only problems ot the problemizers. [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-05-03 19:26 mircea_popescu: Framedragger "have you tried not wanting to fuck guys???" whadda ya know, next they'll "cure" pedos. because they're so totally unlike gays and everything. [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-02-21 22:18 mircea_popescu: hence all the discussions re "fags got their weddings, pedos are next". [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2015-04-30 15:40 mircea_popescu: incidentally, the original (mostly politically driven) explanation for violence against homosexuals - some sort of "homophobia" suffers a lot seeing how ALL SORTS of other sexual behaviours elicit the same violent response. such as transsexualism, or pedophilia. [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2015-03-06 01:01 mircea_popescu: the very notion that the us has any sort of purpose, not even conscious or expressible, but any sort whatsoever is ridiculous on its face. it has all the purpose of a shambling headless zombie. which is why they're stuck trying to invent nonsense, "women and gayz! anti pedo!!" etc. [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2015-02-24 21:00 mircea_popescu: who cares that pedo today ==== faggot 1965. [10:09]
a111: Logged on 2015-02-24 21:00 mircea_popescu: the gays got their way with marriage prior to the freeze, but that's it. pedos aren't getting theirs. [10:09]
mircea_popescu: /log/2014-05-10#669753 [10:09]
mircea_popescu: there's prolly some stuff on trilema too but too lazy to dig moar. shoulds suffice i guess. [10:09]
asciilifeform: last link got cut [10:09]
mircea_popescu: oh i thought that couldn't happen! [10:10]
asciilifeform: lel [10:10]
mircea_popescu: [10:10]
a111: Logged on 2014-05-10 20:40 mircea_popescu: fluffypony that's right, this is the channel of the minority of people into bitcoin that aren't also pedos. [10:10]
mircea_popescu: << oh, i see now what you were talking about. right5 you are, yes, i was focused on the edges not the middle. [10:15]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:33 asciilifeform: observe, you cannot say anything re p,q from he middle bits of pq (or rsa would be useless) [10:15]
mircea_popescu: << afaik, ~continuous~, which is a significantly higher bar [10:16]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:40 asciilifeform: iirc most recent black magic gives you polynomialtime breakage if >=.22b of bitness b of p or q bits are known [10:16]
mircea_popescu: (ordered but not continuous a lesser bar known-positions higher but still lesser continuous block, unknown position etc) [10:17]
asciilifeform: gotta be continuous, or i could 'mahaha, i know mircea_popescu's q has 1024 ones!' [10:17]
mircea_popescu: hey. [10:17]
mircea_popescu: thats a knowledge, "exactly 1024 ones" [10:17]
asciilifeform: within 1sd or so lel [10:17]
mircea_popescu: let teh enemy fight with the army it has! [10:18]
asciilifeform: 1024 is ten bits of info, readily brutable [10:18]
asciilifeform: so sheer weight of 1s can't be much use [10:18]
asciilifeform: if rsa is strong [10:18]
mircea_popescu: how useful something is is of no consequence in the classification of things. it still gets a label. [10:18]
asciilifeform: anyway original observation was re upper and lower cont. strings [10:19]
mircea_popescu: also, polynomial time isn't THAT great. depends a little on the polynomial involved :D [10:19]
asciilifeform: afaik no published work re known middles [10:19]
asciilifeform: sure. [10:19]
asciilifeform: ( recall the primalitytest thread ) [10:19]
mircea_popescu: the meet in the middle etc thing i saw was far from instantaneous. maybe better technologies do exist, but anwyay [10:20]
mircea_popescu: "doable", yes, but nobody's writing a php script of this to put on his site. [10:20]
mircea_popescu: (then again this dun say much -- phuctor, "undoable" until it was done, according to the idle wankers / "academics" publishing around it pretending to not know where they got their dataz.) [10:21]
deedbot: mircea_popescu: [10:21]
asciilifeform: veritable feast for the vultures, it's been lately [10:22]
asciilifeform: i stopped keeping track in real time. [10:23]
asciilifeform: czechs, germans, etc boecks. [10:23]
asciilifeform: depressing reading. 'suddenly dud rsa keys, hip!' [10:25]
mircea_popescu: whole "civilisation" of folk hoping to pass off some tech with serials shaved off. [10:29]
mircea_popescu: the necessary corelate of "no kid left behind" and "creativity!!11", after all. where's all the world's mediocrities to come up with shit ? [10:29]
asciilifeform: there was a '90s american film where there is a scene, where an airplane lands in africa and in fast motion gets stripped for parts, like elephant carcass by hyenas [10:30]
mircea_popescu: copy/paste wikipedia exams are a matter of necessity if you're going to bother all shepherds and whatnot daylabourers to join your "college" [10:30]
asciilifeform: but there at least they dun pretend to have created the airplane. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's been films of elephant etc same. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: of course they do! the saving grace is that you don't speak orc, to see the pretense. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: petrus pretends to have created england so do romanians at that [10:30]
asciilifeform: i thought in ro cosmography england was an uninteresting backwater. or is that only mircea_popescu [10:31]
mircea_popescu: are you aware there's a substantial ro mystico-scientism putting the etruscans as romanian derivative ? and no, it's not "ceausescu madness", ro sufragette cca 1920, exact equiv of that russian fat old woman. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 100% mp. [10:31]
asciilifeform: i'm not esp surprised re etruscans item [10:31]
asciilifeform: considering the venerable ancient ukrs. [10:31]
asciilifeform: ( re ro crackpottery, asciilifeform is 2/3 through pacepa's tome , and marvels over the d00d's complete omission of how ~he himself~ came to be loyal servant of 'worst ever cruellest evil emperor' ) [10:33]
asciilifeform: or take the 'it was really the demented witch' narrative. invites the q, why did nobody have for her any poison ? really, none of the flunkies ? [10:36]
mircea_popescu: imagine, he was a general. before that, colonel. earlier still, major. prior to that, lt. [10:45]
mircea_popescu: and so on. [10:45]
asciilifeform: aha, and somehow reader is expected to believe that d00d 'always hated communism' etc [10:51]
mircea_popescu: motherfucker, the coffee in this country. HOW do they do it. [10:51]
asciilifeform: ( this is universal crack in 'dissident runaway' autobios ) [10:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, ion iliescu went through similar period. "dissident" etc. except for the pics where he's playing retarded games with ceausescu & co. [10:52]
asciilifeform: ah lol the ro eltsin [10:52]
mircea_popescu: ye [10:52]
mircea_popescu: and you know, pacepa was no less than ro resident in rfg. he fucking led the east presence there for at least most of 64. [10:54]
mircea_popescu: then he got promoted in 66 (ceausescu came to teh secretariatship in 65). [10:54]
asciilifeform: it wouldn't surprise asciilifeform to learn that d00d lives not far . [10:55]
mircea_popescu: afaik he does. [10:56]
mircea_popescu: maryland something. [10:56]
asciilifeform: i'd expect he dun take the trains tho. [10:56]
asciilifeform: ( in his place i wouldn't ) [10:56]
mircea_popescu: i dunno... at some point in the 80s the whole eastern front (arafat, gaddafi, ceausescu) had multi-mn bounties on his head. if he survived that... [10:57]
mircea_popescu: market value of 88yo is ~0 anyway. [10:57]
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet) [10:58]
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz : usg focused on infiltrating and corrupting ro justice system first as a result in 1999 they came up with a "rehabilitation" supreme court decision. ro govt refused to recognize it, which resulted in a lot of usg agitprop material as to how "romania not yet rule of law". [11:00]
mircea_popescu: kinda the blue state blueprint, in general. first subvert justice system then lie about rule of law then so following. [11:00]
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, one of the dudes that somehow "failed to identify" pacepa went on to kill a coupla french spies in sudan) [11:02]
BingoBoingo: Question: What is a bank reference letter? [11:17]
mircea_popescu: (to ruin many "westerners" hopes and delusions of self relevancy : means that no, paris '68 is NOT necessarily more than the original later copied by obama-socialism under heading of "orange revolutions". "oh, you mean pacepa's paris v2.0 ? I SEE!.") [11:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:54 mircea_popescu: and you know, pacepa was no less than ro resident in rfg. he fucking led the east presence there for at least most of 64. [11:17]
asciilifeform: << this is unashamedly printed on the jacket of the present-day edition, even [11:18]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:58 mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet) [11:18]
asciilifeform: ( at least the american one ) [11:18]
asciilifeform: re the shoemaker, asciilifeform still can't fully shake the traditional ru version , where man was plugged for paying off his national debt, rather than 'the beoble Finally Had Enuff!' usgolade nonsense. [11:21]
mats: [11:26]
asciilifeform: << the nazi-hunters, it would seem , disagreed with this. 100 y.o. d00d could still, hypothetically, know where he buried the gold etc [11:46]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:57 mircea_popescu: market value of 88yo is ~0 anyway. [11:46]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo generally the lowest rank of the letters of credit. the bank makes a non binding judgement as to customers ability to meet a specirfied financial obligation. [11:49]
mircea_popescu: this is spurious in your case, tell them you'll pay cash upfront. [11:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol! [11:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the people true and squarely had enough. this is the fundamental problem with being saddled with a people in the first place -- what they want isn't ever what's needed. [11:51]
asciilifeform: thebeoble have always 'had enuff' [11:51]
asciilifeform: but e.g. obummer still alive. [11:51]
asciilifeform: and gorby. [11:51]
mircea_popescu: "the people have had enough with not being able to buy consumer goods and if they were able to buy consumer goods they'd have wanted to "form oppinions" in the manner of ustards, and in the vein of "school exams too hard work too long hours idealised self not actualised by regime let other people take our industry, we'll do service "industry" want to live today on money we might make tomorrow IF and only if we don't [11:52]
mircea_popescu: get it today" [11:52]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty, I'll tell this lawyer being auditioned. I'll also ask him if he can do BROU instead of fucking Santander. [11:52]
mircea_popescu: and in that vein, once one starts one doesn't end until california reconstructed. [11:52]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lmao wtf is a lawyer herping about such nonsense. [11:53]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I asked him for the "how do we get a corporation fast" answer. His answer is off the shelf. This isn't the first time I've heard "bank reference" being bandied aboutwith respect to opening a corporate account. [11:54]
* mircea_popescu shrugs. [11:55]
* BingoBoingo continues asking [11:55]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: re: which of the three items were you discussing when you mentioned "boobytrapped", any suggested remedies or alternatives? [11:57]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 05:01 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: default firmware is known-boobytrapped [11:57]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun have anything against the 'octeon' per se ironwise. just be sure to build own os for it. [11:57]
asciilifeform: ( it's a straightforward bsd target, for instance ) [11:58]
asciilifeform: for only slightly higher cost you get those amd g-series boxen ( e.g. 'pcengines' ) [11:58]
asciilifeform: approx same physical dimensions [11:58]
BingoBoingo: Ah [11:59]
asciilifeform: what are you making, BingoBoingo , the exit router ? [11:59]
BingoBoingo: Well, this router is the beefier Octeon box. [11:59]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Thing to manage routes [11:59]
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason to insist that the ~router~ have >2 jacks [11:59]
asciilifeform: multiplying jacks is what the switch is for [12:00]
BingoBoingo: Room to grow by trunking lines [12:00]
BingoBoingo: Also room to cross connect in the future. [12:00]
asciilifeform: if you have 2, each can be turned into as many as you want, with ordinary iron switches. [12:01]
asciilifeform: sorta why ethernet is a net, not a point-to-point port [12:01]
asciilifeform: ( really a bus ) [12:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, it's not simply " paying off his national debt". it's like this : dood went deeply into debt post nixon visit, on the strength of us jewish promises (ie, tech transfer) and to the degree of their own established "deep enough to have no way out". they obviously did not deliver, but then he DID dig himself out, paid whole debt in little over decade. ie, not only that he paid it, but that he paid it "imposs [12:02]
mircea_popescu: ibly" ie "does not understand how jew-worldview works!" [12:02]
asciilifeform: aha! [12:02]
asciilifeform: so 'had problems'. with the murder weapon being 'uprising' [12:02]
mircea_popescu: and then in SPITE of "tech control", romania was building its own computers. not good, no. yet. but it's own machine gun factory WAS better than us anything, after a 20-30 years of "not good, no". [12:02]
asciilifeform: even pacepa's b00k describes a ~working~ pilfered vlsi lab [12:03]
mircea_popescu: and then in spite of "political control" ie "containment policy" romania operated it's OWN gulf concessions with its own machinery and shipped the oil on its own boats made in its own factories. [12:03]
mircea_popescu: fuck you empire of a complete size. [12:03]
asciilifeform: i.e. for all i know shoemaker & co were about to start making ivories [12:03]
mircea_popescu: but, no, ceausescu didn't get overthrown because "the people". who the fuck seriously thinks "the people" even matter, jesus. [12:04]
mircea_popescu: the problem is he had no successor. [12:04]
asciilifeform: same problem as stalin [12:04]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly by 1995 yes. [12:04]
mircea_popescu: re ivories. [12:04]
asciilifeform: complete with prodigal son etc [12:04]
mircea_popescu: quite, yes. [12:04]
asciilifeform: ( nicu is exactly vasiliy ) [12:04]
mircea_popescu: anyway, if he HAD a continuator, like the chinese managed to continue xiaoping, i have little doubt i'd be all for the regime, decked in the usual "youngest general in the signals" regalia and we'd be holding this convo across the berlin wall. [12:05]
asciilifeform: hey i'm all for the regime right nao!111 [12:05]
asciilifeform: the hat man's, that is [12:06]
mircea_popescu: meh. it'd have had to be reformed. half of it made no sense. [12:06]
* asciilifeform nao even has that selfsame hat. walks in to visit family, they immediately : 'brezhnev!' [12:06]
mircea_popescu: socialist-nationalism still socialism. make it capitalist nationalism we're in business. specifically - the portuguese business, rape everyone [12:06]
asciilifeform: good half of just about anything, dug up by archaeologists, similarly makesnosense [12:07]
mircea_popescu: i was there, dun need archeologists. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: this is a major diff. [12:07]
asciilifeform: well similarly asciilifeform was there for gorby [12:08]
asciilifeform: ( though did not live as long as mircea_popescu ) [12:08]
mircea_popescu: this is not similar, i was there for ceausescu not for iliescu lol [12:08]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's elder brother did however witness 'golden age' . [12:09]
mircea_popescu: so then, elder brother saying "half of it made no sense" very != archeologist saying "i don't understand how half of this shit even worked" [12:09]
asciilifeform: and never quite stopped rubbing it in . 'hey that loaf of bread you ate in timis ? we had these, and cost 3 kopeiki' etc [12:09]
asciilifeform: yea [12:10]
mircea_popescu: i understand how it worked it however made no sense. diff point. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he had a point, at that. 20 to the ruble im sure. [12:10]
asciilifeform: i regret to report that even after 25yr of usaschwitz it still makesnosense. [12:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in every case he had a point. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: of particular interest to you might be causescu's self-concept, especially items such as "a critica" (to critique). i dunno how many of his own words you've read, but the man had a very interesting (on the grounds of its incredible low level form that maintained reasonable function) husserl approach to post-hegelian dialectics. [12:12]
asciilifeform: got reading recs for subj ? [12:13]
mircea_popescu: this, in a fellow entirely unsuspectable of having ever HEARD of husserl, let alone read anything in german, is a feat somewhat comparable to the 256 byte 99% lisp interpreter. [12:13]
asciilifeform: i'd enjoy eating. once i get past '5th grade' level of rotaku. [12:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform marginally sufficient material (to show it, if not to discover it necessarily) actually on trilema. [12:13]
asciilifeform: but where [12:14]
mircea_popescu: nah, his romanian was that of a retard, 5th grade just about. very evidently SIMPLE alphabet. [12:14]
mircea_popescu: lessee. [12:14]
asciilifeform: 'я русский бы выучил. только за то,. что им. разговаривал Ленин' (tm)(r)(mayakovsky) [12:15]
asciilifeform: (src, ) [12:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: d00d did know ru tho. so could have, in theory, read the german thinkers, neh [12:17]
mircea_popescu: neh. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: dood had trouble reading newspaper. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: entirely oral thinker. [12:18]
mircea_popescu: dood also had serious emotivity probloems -- extremely shy, etcetera. epicycle is perhaps that encounter with the czechoslovak "labour people" when they ask him a (simple, let's be friends) question (context is that he's the hero, against soviet invasion, etc) and he totally can't answer. [12:19]
mircea_popescu: you seen that ? [12:19]
asciilifeform: yea visible from the surviving material readily [12:20]
asciilifeform: ( or even consider the famous last balcony scene ) [12:20]
mircea_popescu: in THAT context some confusion is expected. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: but to be unable to say who you're thanking at oscar ceremony... kinda blonde moment. you KNEW they were gonna ask. [12:21]
asciilifeform: troo. [12:22]
asciilifeform: that's a 'did he do his homework' moment. [12:22]
mircea_popescu: except he didn't comprehend there's a homework to do. [12:22]
mircea_popescu: and to most mediocre people, gave this impression of utter idiocy, because regularily contradicted their "reasonable expectations". except didn't have the mp refinement of making it painful for them later. [12:22]
mircea_popescu: so the notion endured, "oh, mp doesn't understand maffs". [12:23]
asciilifeform: dunno, supposedly he did make it somewhat painful for some of'em later [12:23]
mircea_popescu: it's true, he doesn't. NEITHER DO YOU. without that latter part... [12:23]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nope. the problem with the mediocre pretending to "intellectuals" is they've agreed to only hurt physcologically. [12:23]
asciilifeform: i was thinking of the 'i hereby order mr.pantsuit caught and fed some radium' instances. [12:25]
mircea_popescu: yes, but those "don't count" [12:26]
mircea_popescu: it has to be "mrs pantsuit, where's your having won the presidency nao ?" at the lowest. [12:26]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> entirely oral thinker. << Ah, hung out with too many Frenchies did he [12:26]
mircea_popescu: ideally, it's a "hey, check out how your stupidity #1 contradicts your stupidity #2, what do you have to say for your stupidity that isn't throwing a hissy fit ?" [12:27]
asciilifeform: mebbe this shows that asciilifeform is same sort of peasant as the shoemaker, but finding it hard to see why not counts. having pantsuit hoisted on a public stake would even moar count imho [12:27]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hung with ~nobody. didn't even fuck around, married a 25yo whore 9-year whore, stuck to her 50 years. [12:27]
asciilifeform: why does it have to be a paper humiliation. [12:27]
asciilifeform: what's wrong with meat humiliation. [12:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cuz that's what the mediocre intellect has decided upon. [12:27]
asciilifeform: maybe ants also have complicated requirements for how to humiliate. but ! ddt still worx! [12:28]
mircea_popescu: not according to the ant. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: see, this is the problem : selection and education are different. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: yes i select my whores. but once i selected what may be promises, i humiliate her, i don't fucking kill her. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: humiliation is definitionally "in the terms of the idiot" [12:28]
asciilifeform: this makes sense [12:29]
mircea_popescu: may be promising* [12:31]
mircea_popescu: dude it's incredible how fucking useless the internet is. [12:35]
asciilifeform: ikr ? [12:35]
asciilifeform: i found last yr, somewhat surprisingly, that the works of stalin are not sitting in plain txt anywhere [12:36]
mircea_popescu: you know ? [12:36]
mircea_popescu: i read piles of ceausescu transcripts, they're all exactly nowhere. 1968 meeting with the writer's union ? really, NOT EVEN THAT ? 1965 may 19th "who wants a seat in helicopter" one ? nope ? [12:37]
mircea_popescu: it's like... dude forget it, 0%. [12:37]
asciilifeform: when asciilifeform wanted to read lysenko in the original , he had to visit the rarest-rarities reading room in american national lib of medicine [12:38]
asciilifeform: nowhere else, was subj preserved ( outside of possibly similar archive in moscow, possibly ) [12:38]
mircea_popescu: nuts. [12:38]
asciilifeform: but hey you can download winblowz 10 at 25MB/sec !11111 [12:38]
asciilifeform: and lolcatz [12:38]
mircea_popescu: im totally finding this, motherfucker, im sure i saved copies on trilema somehwere PRECISELY for this conversation [12:43]
BingoBoingo: !!Up hubud [12:43]
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes. [12:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform << ceausescu on art. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: << full item [12:45]
asciilifeform: oh neato [12:45]
mircea_popescu: after a stenograph of 1971 (aug 4) meeting at Mangalia (Neptun). [12:46]
mircea_popescu: the 1965 and 1968 items absent, but pars pro toto this shall have to do. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: dude has the audacity to ask for "a ballet on the topic of having finished the kolohoz-isation". you know ? at least asks the right fucking questions, even if nobody in audience has the mettle to make answer. [12:47]
mircea_popescu: and he has the numbers : right here, where we happen to be, i ~know the name of the local lord~, and his numbers : 600 to 2209, he says. and what is teh retort ? [12:48]
mircea_popescu: "oh the numbers are wrong". yeah, im sure they are. and the tractors invented, and the working the fields with oxen and horses and wives pre 1940 calumny, perhaps. hurr. [12:50]
davout: <<< needed the same when opening a bank account in .mu, reference letter didn't need any particular judgement about whether i'd be able to meet a financial committment, but just something along the lines of "had bizns with this gentleman for X years, didn't leave with unpaid debts, isn't a fucking gypsy" [12:59]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 16:54 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I asked him for the "how do we get a corporation fast" answer. His answer is off the shelf. This isn't the first time I've heard "bank reference" being bandied aboutwith respect to opening a corporate account. [12:59]
davout: <<< ty, will read [13:00]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:09 mircea_popescu: davout re pedo discussion : as well as period lulz such as [13:00]
davout: <<< "lord of war" iirc [13:00]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:30 asciilifeform: there was a '90s american film where there is a scene, where an airplane lands in africa and in fast motion gets stripped for parts, like elephant carcass by hyenas [13:00]
BingoBoingo: In other news, apparently Tower 4 of the world trade center is not actually inside the world trade center free zone. [13:23]
mircea_popescu: < o right! not a bad film, at that. [13:35]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 18:00 davout: <<< "lord of war" iirc [13:35]
mircea_popescu: mmm 2005. no, there was some 1970s item [13:35]
phf: << that doesn't sound right, read and eval are distinct phases, by the time you get to eval you shouldn't be operating with strings when but instead with interned symbols (i.e. things that can be eq'd in lisp and pointer equivalent on c machine level) [13:50]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:25 spyked: <-- strings are (lisp) lists-of-characters. which, as it is, unfortunately makes parsing and evaluating builtin functions (e.g. cons, car, cdr) a pain in the ass. can be structured cleanly though. also, this makes it not a simple matter of find+replace in shithub scheme.adb. [13:50]
deedbot: << Trilema - Il merlo maschio [13:51]
phf: for example your Symbol_EqualP should just be a pointer comparison, rather than string comparison. (the whole point of a ~symbol~ over a string is that it's interned, i.e. same sequence of characters always map to the identical Symbol object) [13:53]
apeloyee: << that's just DoS. but, if you have computational capacity, you check the padding. may also require that it's signed with my key, with the pubexp attached if you don't know it. Thus, the modulus is in principle sufficient to _initiate_ the converstaion [13:54]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:12 asciilifeform: << what keeps a million enemies from offering false pubexps in false conversations, preventing us from agreeing on a genuine one ? [13:54]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: by same argument, '1 bit of the modulus is sufficient to init conversation, after it we'll agree on next bit' etc [13:55]
apeloyee: I don't see how you can extend to this case [13:55]
asciilifeform: in either case, in practice enemy can drown you [13:55]
apeloyee: well, that means the enemy can drown you even if we kave pub.exps, by simply flooding [13:56]
apeloyee: *have [13:56]
apeloyee: with random garbage [13:56]
asciilifeform: not if i have '9000' entry points to my gossip net, each of which rejects malformed rsa packets in O(1) at line speed [13:56]
apeloyee: u can use these to verify that purported pub-exp is validly signed [13:57]
asciilifeform: right, but to do it, you first have to receive proposed exp 'on faith' at that endpoint [13:57]
asciilifeform: the amount of computation that you must do, and bits you must buffer, to do friend-or-foe, is considerably larger. [13:58]
mircea_popescu: apeloyee signature also relies on knowing your exp [13:58]
apeloyee: can attach your pubexp in plaintext, to the signature [13:59]
mircea_popescu: but a signature signed by a pubexp i didn't have PRIOR to the receiving of the signature is definitionally worthless. [13:59]
mircea_popescu: as it communicates nothing above "3+3 = 6" [13:59]
apeloyee: I thought you said modulus _is_ the identity, and here I presume the modulus is known [14:00]
mircea_popescu: dang i said pubexp i meant pubkey. [14:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apeloyee was extending the argument, as i understand [14:00]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-08 23:10 asciilifeform: returning to the exponent thing, seems that mircea_popescu is right, nothing particularly interesting can be done by distributing a pub with e' . ( other than 'believe me , his e is 3' and then messages ~to that pub~ are breakable if padding is broken. but that' sit . ) [14:00]
asciilifeform: that modulus -- suffices for identity [14:00]
mircea_popescu: so your model is, i have your pubkey, and encounter an item signed by that N, with a specific e that's included in the signed text ? [14:01]
apeloyee: yes [14:01]
apeloyee: of course, must check that e/=1 [14:01]
mircea_popescu: aha. yes, this is exactly what we do not [14:01]
mircea_popescu: now* [14:01]
asciilifeform: this in fact worx. but makes for heavy sigs. [14:01]
mircea_popescu: except we're currently defaulting e's no whatever, 65537 [14:01]
mircea_popescu: for exactly asciilifeform 's reason : shorter this way [14:01]
jurov: a111: strings are sequences, not lists. cons/car/cdr does not apply, there's different set of functions for these [14:03]
asciilifeform: the 'everyone has same e' thing was slipped in under clinton , when his nsa invested in 'acre of asics' with e=3|e=65537 presumption baked in [14:03]
mircea_popescu: in other domestic tranquility news, just finished stuffing a mason jar with baked peppers. they have some FABULOUS kapja peppers here. [14:03]
apeloyee: the amount of computation that you must do ,<< the same as for any packet: 1 mod-exp and check padding. >> and bits you must buffer, to do friend-or-foe, is considerably larger. << twice as much. might be acceptable, depending on circumstances. [14:03]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: it makes , e.g., udp (512byte) impossible. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: and i just appointed a new crown provider of chocolate. you should see this thing, so endearingly evidently hand-made copy of "how a chocolate looks" when hershey makes it... [14:04]
asciilifeform: the sad thing is that ( at least until we get, e.g., the shortwave net, going ) there are some boxes of fixed size, that in practice gotta be sat down into if at all possible [14:04]
mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone wants some chocolate/coffee/whatever mp-approved products shipped lemme know ima send you a batch. [14:05]
asciilifeform: and one of these is the unfragged ip packet. [14:05]
asciilifeform: oh neato [14:05]
* asciilifeform would rather pick up in person, when he finally gets around to visiting mircea_popesculandia [14:05]
mircea_popescu: also works. [14:05]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: sorta why i suggested making pub-exp nextprime(keccak(commentstring)). satisfies the basic req of e being 1) long 2) nonstandardized [14:07]
mircea_popescu: stop providing support of "utility" for nextprime [14:07]
mircea_popescu: it is an anti-useful non-feature. [14:07]
asciilifeform: it dun matter if it leaks, for a public constant neh [14:07]
mircea_popescu: there are some primitives you don't wanrt to keep around, [14:08]
mircea_popescu: exactly like rat eggs. [14:08]
asciilifeform: 'where is next prime' is perfectly legit wrench in any respectable numeric toolbox, wat [14:08]
mircea_popescu: "but mp, rats don't reproduce by eggs" "And why do you have to thank for that ?" [14:08]
asciilifeform: lol [14:08]
mircea_popescu: who* [14:08]
asciilifeform: reminds asciilifeform of his brother's 'from old flat, you brought mouse spores !!' [14:08]
mircea_popescu: heh [14:08]
mircea_popescu: enlighten me, what does this wrench perfectly legitimately ever do ? [14:09]
apeloyee: (512byte) << already impossible if must be both encrypted and signed [14:09]
asciilifeform: making nonseekrit primes quickly, say [14:09]
apeloyee: with rsa [14:09]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: with 4096b rsa troo [14:09]
asciilifeform: one or the other, per packet [14:10]
mircea_popescu: apeloyee there is no such thing in tmsr rsa. [14:10]
mircea_popescu: EITHER encrypted OR signed. [14:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's much faster ways, such as the 2^x - y method. [14:13]
asciilifeform: waiwat [14:14]
asciilifeform: that doesn't auto-map a n-bit integer to an n-bit prime. [14:14]
asciilifeform: in n-bit ffa arithm. [14:14]
mircea_popescu: it precisely does. [14:14]
asciilifeform: let's hear now ? [14:14]
mircea_popescu: if you want an n bit prime calculate 2^n and substract the correct small integer. [14:14]
mircea_popescu: 2^300 - 153 eg [14:14]
asciilifeform: i don't want ~an~ n-bit prime, i want THE n-bit prime corresponding to arbitrary n-bit input I. [14:15]
mircea_popescu: or w/e, 2^400 - 593 [14:15]
asciilifeform: repeatably. [14:15]
mircea_popescu: there is no such correspondence. there's more n than log n [14:15]
asciilifeform: well not 1:1 [14:15]
asciilifeform: naturally [14:15]
asciilifeform: but 'same input, same output' [14:15]
mircea_popescu: well then stfu and read alf's haranguing re hashes. [14:15]
asciilifeform: call it hash, yes, that outputs a prime. [14:15]
asciilifeform: ( nothing to stop you from imposing other types of hash in between, incidentally . as i did in the pubexp example ) [14:16]
asciilifeform: it suffers from all of the limitations of other hashes. [14:16]
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the correct solution to this "quickly, prime this many bits long" is a n, k tuple which contains n as the bitsize and k as the "oddness". if you want the n - 396 k = 5 prime you get 2^396- 1229 [14:16]
mircea_popescu: ie, the 5th prime down. [14:16]
asciilifeform: you get a handful of primes this way, before the arithmetic becomes unwieldy [14:17]
asciilifeform: ( and definitely not ffatronic ) [14:17]
mircea_popescu: we're still not clear on "The needs this wrench helps". so far very much blender-toilet. "maybe someone somewhere needs to make turd batidos" [14:18]
asciilifeform: at any rate, prime-constructor ( see apeloyee's thread re subj ) is entirely separate problem from 'prime hash' [14:18]
asciilifeform: blender-toilets are standard in some locales, in fact [14:18]
asciilifeform: where narrow pipes [14:18]
mircea_popescu: your "prime hash" is not equiprobable, worst fucking hash ever. [14:18]
mircea_popescu: "add the digits" is a better hash. [14:18]
asciilifeform: what means 'not equiprobable' [14:19]
mircea_popescu: that you'll get some values more likely than others. [14:19]
apeloyee: I didn't claim prime constructer, just an improved method to generate candidates for miller-rabin [14:19]
asciilifeform: and how the hell does it compare to 'add the digits' -- there you get $base possible outputs [14:19]
mircea_popescu: but much more balancedly so. [14:19]
asciilifeform: nextprime gives countprimes(n) possible outputs. [14:19]
asciilifeform: and is as balanced as your rng is honest [14:19]
mircea_popescu: a hash where output x is y times more likely than output z is not a hash. it's a fash. [14:19]
asciilifeform: its only flaw is that it leaks via time [14:19]
apeloyee: some primes have many composites before them and thus are more likely [14:20]
mircea_popescu: ^ [14:20]
asciilifeform: this is troo hm [14:20]
mircea_popescu: in fact imo the "prime hash" is a textbook example of "worst hash ever". [14:20]
mircea_popescu: i can'\t come up with a worse one on the spot. [14:20]
apeloyee: return 4//guaranteed to be random [14:21]
asciilifeform: well if done with nextprime() then yes worst [14:21]
mircea_popescu: apeloyee great hash. always yields 4. unbreakable. what's the problem ? [14:21]
asciilifeform: but it remains open q , whether it can be done correctly (equiprobably) [14:21]
asciilifeform: (i.e. such that there is ~nothing~ that can be said in advance re what kind of prime will be chosen) [14:22]
apeloyee: write-only memory (TM) [14:22]
mircea_popescu: in fact, the return 4 hash is the ~only hash function about which we can say with certainty that no inverse exists. [14:22]
asciilifeform: lol [14:22]
mircea_popescu: TRUTH! [14:22]
mircea_popescu: great fucking hash, sadly not very usable. [14:22]
asciilifeform: incidentally, if one believes in hashes per se, [14:23]
asciilifeform: consider function : [14:23]
asciilifeform: hash-until-isprime [14:23]
asciilifeform: dun suffer, in principle, from the nextprime()-problem [14:24]
asciilifeform: ( suffers from the flaw of potentially never terminating tho ) [14:24]
mircea_popescu: might actually be an interesting approach to the whole "hash evaluation" problem. [14:24]
asciilifeform: hm? [14:24]
mircea_popescu: see their PRIME densities etc. [14:24]
asciilifeform: aa [14:24]
asciilifeform: afaik even the shoddiest 1980s hash algo, produce ~perfect 'white noise'. hence the popularity of faux-rng via hashwhitener etc. [14:25]
mircea_popescu: "perfect" under what scrutiny ? [14:25]
asciilifeform: ( see ancient metathread running back to 2013 ) [14:25]
asciilifeform: under every known scrutiny . [14:25]
asciilifeform: ( aside from knowing the riddle key ) [14:26]
mircea_popescu: even the shoddiest 2011 scammers produce ~perfect "bitcoin business opportunities". hence the popularity of scam-investment. [14:26]
mircea_popescu: something like that ? [14:26]
* mod6 shudders [14:26]
apeloyee: << if k MSBs of N are 1s, then k MSBs of p and q both are 1s, ie it only leaks sometimes. the leak itself is small, but since slightly biased RNG wouldn't be acceptable, then why this is? [14:27]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:25 mircea_popescu: << this is no leak it is a restatement of "first two bits set to 11, so you only use 2045 bit keys" [14:27]
asciilifeform: nah, in the sense where neither i nor anybody else can distinguish hash(fg output) from hash(we fuck pigs) , without knowing the answer ahead of time [14:27]
mircea_popescu: apeloyee because this is a mathematical leak, it's not avoidable properly speaking. multiplication is not a neutral op wrt the tails of the multiplicands. but leaks. [14:27]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: see approach [14:27]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 . [14:27]
mircea_popescu: once you decide rsa is based on mult, you decide to take the mult leak. [14:28]
apeloyee: what's the range of candidate p's? [14:28]
asciilifeform: it is possible, this way, to leak 'half a bit' instead of whole. [14:28]
asciilifeform: apeloyee exactly half of the bitness of modulus. [14:28]
mircea_popescu: apeloyee from 11(2045 bits unset)1 to 11(2045 bits set)1 [14:28]
apeloyee: then my argument still applies [14:28]
mircea_popescu: ah you meant in his thing. yes it still applies, he shaves a further half bit is all. [14:28]
mircea_popescu: at significant cost, twas in the logs. [14:29]
asciilifeform: i did note this, you don't escape by gluing upper bits to equal 1 [14:29]
asciilifeform: it's the same as doing nothing [14:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sometimes i get this feeling like he's trying to discern if we're idiots. [14:30]
asciilifeform: hey, d00d pumped his listening-before-talking muscle for so long that it's schwartzneger-sized [14:30]
asciilifeform: << i gotta add to this before it runs away : when making ~scriptlang~ ( rather than an actual lispm ) very different set of design tradeoffs might be acceptable, it they reduce complexity and in particular nonlisp LOC [14:33]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 18:50 phf: << that doesn't sound right, read and eval are distinct phases, by the time you get to eval you shouldn't be operating with strings when but instead with interned symbols (i.e. things that can be eq'd in lisp and pointer equivalent on c machine level) [14:33]
asciilifeform: i would like to see the minimal practical nonlisp loc, in such an animal [14:33]
asciilifeform: which could mean, for instance, dispensing with entire concept of interned string [14:34]
asciilifeform: << yes that was it! ty davout [14:35]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 18:00 davout: <<< "lord of war" iirc [14:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to get back to teh ceausescu lulz : he describes vasile alecsandri (a rich, old boyar who also wrote poems, very much like say pushkin, massive landholder etc. but ceausescu discusses his work in terms of oyu know, "this journalist kid from the 1800s, did his job, wrote for the people". [14:35]
mircea_popescu: i very much doubt he understood alecsandri as anything else. "a writer", yes, like a sort of newspaper man ++, a young mark twain, maybe talented, his paternal job being to "make available circumstances to development". [14:36]
asciilifeform: or possibly he wasn't prepared to piss on his pushkin ? [14:36]
asciilifeform: just as sov folx were not [14:36]
mircea_popescu: not at all. he had the most cursory familiarity with the man's work, of the exact sort as might have been pounded into a trades apprentice during basic schooling by kingdom efforts. [14:37]
mircea_popescu: had no idea of eg the man's letters, as they weren't in the 3rd grade manual. or of anything else. [14:37]
asciilifeform: hey americans to this day have ~0 problem 'respecting', e.g., washington, despite slave fleet ( and on top of it, near-total unletteredness ) [14:38]
mircea_popescu: i do not believe the man had any sort of comprehension of the world outside the sheerest anachronism. [14:39]
asciilifeform: sorta half of what makes'im interesting imho [14:39]
mircea_popescu: the ro folklore imagines the emperor's court as a sort of larger peasant house. i have no doubt ceausescu imagined all others as a sort of "people from village i have known" [14:39]
mircea_popescu: 100% petrus in this sense. [14:39]
asciilifeform: time machine escapee. [14:39]
mircea_popescu: in a sense. yes, there's a certain purity in ignorance. [14:40]
mircea_popescu: (but the above, there is mention made of eg, emperor going out into the pridvor, ie peasant style veranda. cuz he must've had one. and so on. how could a house be without ? esp if rich enough ?) [14:40]
asciilifeform: waitasec is this false cognate with the ru [14:41]
mircea_popescu: all ro words are false cognates. that's what ro does. [14:41]
asciilifeform: ( the noun is lost, but придворный remains 'courtier' ) [14:41]
mircea_popescu: cognate with old slavonic pritvoru [14:41]
mircea_popescu: ~exonartex [14:42]
asciilifeform: of course reality caught up with poor shoemaker's imagination, and today's 'emperors' indeed have not only front porches but armchair with tv with foxnoose, and refrigerator full of 'bud' [14:43]
asciilifeform: just like the lowest prole [14:43]
mircea_popescu: ironically, romania's communist party had made the socialist republic very very far from the "sacred ideals". usg much more worthy of the S than rsr ever manafged to be. [14:44]
asciilifeform: sorta accounts for my somewhat contrarian reaction to the much-advertised 'golden toilet' aspect of ceaucescu [14:44]
mircea_popescu: (more fully visible, this evolution, in china. communists, rite ?) [14:44]
asciilifeform: 'hey cool, he DIDN'T have fridge-of-bud') [14:44]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's scandalous ahistorism. the man ate ~like a monk. [14:44]
mircea_popescu: was, amusingly, vegetarian. [14:45]
asciilifeform: bbbut the museum ! ( they opened a 'ceaucescu's summer palace' thing , with golden errrythings ) [14:45]
asciilifeform: 2015 iirc [14:45]
apeloyee: ascillifeform: what do you need a scriptlang for if haz a proper lispm? to bootstrap lispm interpreter/compiler? [14:45]
mircea_popescu: by all accounts he had no sex in the 70s or 80s but in any case had not even satisfied that minimum bar of middle class bourgeoisie of a 2nd girl somewhere. [14:45]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: i ain't got a proper lispm, and neither does anybody else [14:46]
asciilifeform: but yes, to ditch the pyturds and perlisms [14:46]
asciilifeform: and the multi-GB liquishit ecosystem they drag along [14:46]
asciilifeform: i want a functioning scriptron on, e.g., my dos box. [14:47]
apeloyee: "ecosystem" is optional [14:47]
mircea_popescu: worst kind of optionality. optional like woman is optional. in practice... [14:47]
asciilifeform: ^ [14:47]
apeloyee: how to avoid perlization of $newscriptlang then? [14:48]
mircea_popescu: the memstructs. [14:48]
asciilifeform: same way we avoid gavinization of trb, for instance. [14:48]
mircea_popescu: keeping sane memstructs 99% of the job i am pretty well persuaded. [14:48]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other lulz : [14:50]
mircea_popescu: !~google olga kalashnikova [14:50]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Olga Kalashnikova - IMDb: <> Science - Aerosols And Clouds (329J): People: Olga Kalashnikova: <> about - Olga Kalashnikova | Actor, Model, Producer: <> [14:50]
asciilifeform: wassat [14:50]
mircea_popescu: (dudin's alt-explanation of who *** was in to ***) [14:50]
mircea_popescu: some slavegirl. [14:50]
asciilifeform: which linked chix is the 1 in question ? the film extra, or the academic [14:51]
mircea_popescu: neither. [14:51]
asciilifeform: or some other [14:51]
asciilifeform: aa [14:51]
asciilifeform: 'tis a pretty common name actually [14:51]
asciilifeform: ( originally a kalash is a type of breading ) [14:51]
asciilifeform: so roughly 'baker' [14:52]
mircea_popescu: item [14:52]
asciilifeform: aaaa lol [14:52]
phf: asciilifeform: i understand your point, but i'm not sure that the author in question made a choice by considering viable alternatives, rather than from not knowing [14:53]
asciilifeform: phf: my understanding is that author was simply doing homework [14:53]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> 100% petrus in this sense. << Petrus Macht Frei! [14:54]
asciilifeform: btw phf seems like ivory not happenin' any time soon ( see thread ) . [14:54]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:55 asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd. [14:54]
apeloyee: do you like the 'ivory' architecture so much? [14:55]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: actually i do not particularly like it [14:55]
apeloyee: then...? [14:55]
mircea_popescu: not that many examples of not fundamentally braindamaged computing around. [14:56]
mircea_popescu: he likes the z80 for the same reasons in the same way. and other obsolete matter. [14:56]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: but on the other hand any attempt to build a sane arch, without fully grasping the bolix stack, from ic to the compiler, is lunacy. [14:56]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> of course reality caught up with poor shoemaker's imagination, and today's 'emperors' indeed have not only front porches but armchair with tv with foxnoose, and refrigerator full of 'bud' << The local noise is dominated by 'bud' sales freefalling. Popular yet unverifiable by me theory is lack of once much marketed 'Born on date' discontinued by the Brazilians is letting retailers and wholesalers keep rancid product on [14:57]
BingoBoingo: shelf. [14:57]
mircea_popescu: alternatively, beer is swill to begin with, and esp the alt-flavoured sprite they sell in the us. [14:57]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if 'coke' dies, 'pepsi' will reign, the basic idea remains [14:58]
asciilifeform: 'emperor' drinks same flavoured water as the prole, today. [14:58]
BingoBoingo: The point is once lowered, bar keeps finding ways to fall further [14:59]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: ever see the infamous kalman reti film ? ( mirror still seems to work ) [15:00]
a111: Logged on 2014-11-16 19:08 asciilifeform: [15:00]
asciilifeform: i dun normally recommend 'screen films' but there is simply no other way to properly summarize what bolix was. [15:00]
asciilifeform: it has to be seen. [15:00]
phf: apeloyee: i have a friend who periodically attempts to write his own programming language, but without reading any documentation. when i ask him, hey, why not read lisp in small pieces or something, he just goes "well, i'm going to learn something just by trying", which i recently realized is straight up american education model. there's nothing that comes out of it though, he just keeps banging his head against solved problems! [15:03]
asciilifeform: this is the inevitable doom of people who will not read. [15:03]
asciilifeform: << see also [15:04]
a111: Logged on 2015-07-05 23:53 asciilifeform: or that other thread, which i can't seem to find, where we spoke of how 'maths wot is not essential for being published, but for even having publishable ideas instead of burning your life on fibonacci sequences or some other solved/irrelevant dead end' [15:04]
mircea_popescu: "could you guess from context what the unknown word means ???" [15:04]
mircea_popescu: the only answer is no. [15:04]
asciilifeform: ( consider -- if the 'meaning can be had from context', why is the word even there on the page ? ) [15:06]
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, the page. [15:06]
asciilifeform: aaha [15:06]
mircea_popescu: it's the fundamental orcism, this. expressed pluriously by the orcs now inhabiting the once-proud colonies. "you couldn't know as you haven't experienced". really, bitch ? what the fuck DO YOU THINK KNOWLEDGE EVEN IS! [15:07]
mircea_popescu: and so on, a whole host of, centrally, the same thing. a sort of iliterate solipsism. [15:07]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron. [15:10]
asciilifeform: just as ceaucescu was content to 'steal' vlsi from the decaying west, i am perfectly content to steal the algos from bolix. [15:10]
asciilifeform: by all indications, they were pretty effective -- but, far more importantly -- extremely compact. [15:11]
asciilifeform: ( they had to be ) [15:11]
asciilifeform: and with ~zero~ overflowandcrashlang 'legacy' crapolade in the stack. [15:12]
asciilifeform: unlike every single extant piece of computing artifact . [15:12]
asciilifeform: the bolix people fit a complete lisp-to-silicon system in less space than taken by original 'wolfenstein' . [15:12]
asciilifeform: and it ran ok at 8mhz. [15:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know it's traditionally spelled ceausescu. there's no soft c in romanian, esp not next to e. [15:13]
asciilifeform: i'm missing the proper letter on this particular terminal anyway lol [15:14]
mircea_popescu: :p [15:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did anyone transcribe this ? [15:15]
asciilifeform: which this [15:15]
mircea_popescu: reti's speech. wtf is with the sound only bs. [15:15]
asciilifeform: ( note that no one in ru has any doubt how to pronounce d00d's name, because чаушеску makes perfect sense ) [15:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc there was a captioned version on youtube. but seems to have evaporated. [15:16]
mircea_popescu: !G speech-to-text [15:17]
mircea_popescu: we need more bots. [15:17]
mircea_popescu: who wants to bring up a speech to text thing ? [15:17]
asciilifeform: iirc d00d doesn't exactly speak the king's englisch [15:17]
asciilifeform: so might not work [15:17]
asciilifeform: even if it worked [15:18]
mircea_popescu: gotta start somewhere. [15:18]
mircea_popescu: why is he so fucking nervous ? [15:18]
mircea_popescu: what is with all these people! [15:19]
asciilifeform: maybe he knew that the money were running out, lol [15:19]
asciilifeform: ( reti is the other half of dks-and-reti skeleton crew ) [15:19]
asciilifeform: iirc he is the orig author of the ersatz ivory emulator [15:20]
mircea_popescu: i know a bunch of imbeciles who should speak a lot more hesitatingly than this guy. such as for instance ~everyone not-white. somehow, they don't, going all the way to like obama daring to even open his mouth in public. [15:20]
mircea_popescu: world is fucking backwards. [15:20]
ben_vulpes: fwiw google makes their robotranscripts available over http [15:21]
mircea_popescu: i expect, yes. [15:21]
asciilifeform: 'Kalman Reti worked for Symbolics from 1982 through 1992, mostly on VLSI tools for Ivory but also writing low-level device support (e.g. a LMFS recovery utility, R/W optical drive support, LZW compressor, etc.) The last few years of that were spent doing customer consulting. After being laid off when Symbolics went into chapter 11, Kalman worked for Apple in Cambridge, first on MCL and later, after MCL was sold to Digitool, on Dylan. [15:21]
asciilifeform: Kalman was hired after that by Symbolics Technology, Inc., who had acquired the assets of Symbolics from the bankruptcy court, to work on further productizing the emulator for the Alpha. This was used by John Mallery at MIT to run his document distribution system for the White House during the Clinton presidency. When the owners of that venture decided that a financial company had no business owning a computer company, a private ind [15:21]
asciilifeform: ividual bought the assets and Kalman spent 4 years as a "captive consultant" for him. Since 2002, when he ran out of money, I've worked for Ab Initio (doing nothing with lisp except emacs hacks).' [15:21]
asciilifeform: ( src, another d00d who was there, infamous crackpot ) [15:21]
phf: (crackpot in question is also in all your lisps, fucking with your asdfs) [15:23]
asciilifeform: aha [15:23]
mircea_popescu: iirc phf dun like fare so much. [15:23]
asciilifeform: i dun either [15:23]
mircea_popescu: since we're doing this, here's a fundamental point i don't understand. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: why, again, is there a relation between cpu register bit width and memory-allocation-unit bit width ? [15:24]
mircea_popescu: for one thing, historical concept of pages seems to suggest that the relationship is exactly of the nature of "byte=octet, we're dumb". [15:24]
asciilifeform: let's suppose the contrary [15:25]
mircea_popescu: let's. [15:25]
asciilifeform: how would memory-to-reg and reg-to-memory MOV look on this iron ? [15:25]
mircea_popescu: how does mult of two regs look ? [15:25]
asciilifeform: lessay ram is fetchable in 11bit chunks but regs are, say , 17 wide [15:25]
asciilifeform: mult is necessarily 2b wide ( where b is the reg bitness ) [15:26]
mircea_popescu: let's instead say thatr we have a modern machine, with 64 bit bytes and 1mb bit pages. [15:26]
asciilifeform: pages are not a fundamental unit tho [15:26]
mircea_popescu: in this model they are. memory (ram, disk, whatever -- comes in pages) [15:26]
asciilifeform: ( they are only reflected in iron at all, on 'optimized for c' abortions where have 'iron pagetable' ) [15:26]
mircea_popescu: so your hdd nodes, for instrance, are... 1mb. and your ddram lines are... 1mb. [15:27]
asciilifeform: but a page is simply a fixed qty of addressable machinewords [15:27]
mircea_popescu: yes, but hardware-fixed. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: one drive sector, one ddr line. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: and, obviously, 1 video buffer. [15:27]
asciilifeform: well orig q was 'why is there a relationship' but seems like mircea_popescu is really asking 'why pc regs so tiny' [15:28]
mircea_popescu: no, i am asking why exactly is one item unrelated to another item married to it. [15:28]
asciilifeform: there being a relationship at all, comes from the fact that the two types of bucket regularly get emptied into one another [15:28]
mircea_popescu: it's obvious why cpu regs are "tiny" : so many lines worth putting down in gold. [15:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this seems sufficient cause to you ? [15:28]
asciilifeform: i have noted in the past that it is possible to have, e.g., wider regs but fewer of'em [15:29]
asciilifeform: with same transistor cost [15:29]
mircea_popescu: rather, keep the regs, gimme "page to page hdd to ram and video" ops. [15:29]
asciilifeform: ( the 1 exception where the cost is nonlinear may be the barrel shifter ) [15:29]
asciilifeform: let's consider how ram is typically sold [15:30]
mircea_popescu: consider if you wrote/read the disk/net/video 1mb at a time. [15:30]
asciilifeform: chip is typically 'x * y' where x is input bitness and y -- output [15:30]
asciilifeform: so you can readily buy, e.g., 16x1 i.e. 65536 bits of ram, addressable 1 bit at a time [15:30]
asciilifeform: ( e.g. 0000000000000000 input gives you the first of'em ) [15:31]
mircea_popescu: right. [15:31]
asciilifeform: you can also buy x * 4, x * 8, x * 9, 16, 18 ( most common sizes ) [15:31]
asciilifeform: at one time they were uncommon, and a stick of memory tended to have as many chips as the bus bitness [15:32]
asciilifeform: ( using x*1 strictly ) [15:32]
asciilifeform: but even with the widest, you will need quite a few to make machine with, e.g., 8192-bit word. ( and your cpu now needs 8192bit regs 0 [15:32]
asciilifeform: ) [15:32]
mircea_popescu: now suppose i want to read some of this memory. what happens is that the controller reads A WHOLE LINE, and then selects from it the bit i wanted and spits it out. [15:33]
mircea_popescu: but this is spuriosity. let it feed out... the whole line. [15:33]
asciilifeform: what's the use of simultaneously lighting up a whole line, simply to blow the clock cycle on reading 1 bit ?? [15:33]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how is a 1GB ram chip store the 2^30 bits ? [15:33]
asciilifeform: matrix [15:33]
mircea_popescu: and this matrix is about... 1mb wide ? [15:34]
asciilifeform: it's generally ~square, geometrically [15:34]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because you ~never read one bit. that's the issue here, whole fucking hardware is built around nonsense. nobody reads 1 bit and for most applications 1 byte (ie, 64 bits!) is actually an underbyte. [15:34]
asciilifeform: well yes. hence typical pc has 128+b wide drams [15:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform fwis mostly rectangular, but anyway. [15:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform typical pc has the following situation : 64 bit registers, 128 bit memory, 1024 bit disk sectors, 64 mb video buffers, and atop sitting a drunk driver who thinks 8 bits are a byte. [15:35]
mircea_popescu: if this makes sense... [15:36]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile we're introducing 4096 bit keys, and 4096 bit message sizes. [15:36]
asciilifeform: worse [15:36]
asciilifeform: recent (~decade) x86 has 128, and even 256b, registers also.. [15:36]
asciilifeform: hybrid of bulldog and rhinoceros on every level [15:37]
mircea_popescu: whatr the fduck is he even talking about, "tagging every word". fucker, small words hardly worth tagging! make your word 4096 bits, tag THAT. [15:38]
asciilifeform: there was ONE size of word [15:38]
mircea_popescu: "oh, couldn't be done on hardware of back then". tell you what, fucking your wife also couldn't be done on your hardware of back when junior high. [15:38]
asciilifeform: and no such thing as untagged, on whole box. that was the whole strength of the edifice. [15:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but too small. [15:38]
asciilifeform: they'd happily have made 512b words, if the iron existed. [15:38]
asciilifeform: as it is 40b broke the back. [15:38]
mircea_popescu: i suspect. [15:38]
asciilifeform: whole thing was a valiant effort to make a thing that was just short of technologically impossible. [15:39]
mircea_popescu: and that meanwhile became quite technologically comfortable. [15:39]
asciilifeform: fwiw the 3600 series ( pre-ivory ) were 36b [15:39]
asciilifeform: item grew as the iron became available ( i do not even say 'affordable' , thing was a 'cost no object' design, like aston-martin ) [15:40]
mircea_popescu: he's now at describing the mindbogglingly ugly hacks of how to get 32 bit fixnums out of 36 bit words with 6 bits of tag and 2 of code and so on, "oh actually the lowe order quarter can be repurposed" [15:40]
mircea_popescu: holly hell already. [15:40]
mircea_popescu: be less poor, solve better problems. [15:40]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform ( and quite a few other folx, i suspect even earlier ) realized in ~2005 that it was eminently practical with modern silicon [15:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what did they use as hardware hash ? [15:41]
asciilifeform: but modern silicon instead gets 2million transistors for motherfucking tlb cache so that winblowz can page less. [15:41]
mircea_popescu: (lulz of all time, 3600 came with built-in bitcoin miner) [15:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wish i knew ! sorta why i wanted the thing microscopied. [15:41]
mircea_popescu: ikr. [15:42]
asciilifeform: plenty of unanswered q's re the arch. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: esp as this apparently was ephemera. [15:42]
asciilifeform: it was ALL ephemera. [15:42]
asciilifeform: these folx had no notion of making any of the details public. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: mit. pshew. [15:42]
asciilifeform: ( can't even say i have any outrage over this, there was no logical reason to publish ) [15:42]
asciilifeform: mit was not involved other than as patent licensor/troll at that point [15:42]
mircea_popescu: it was involved as mental poison in these people's heads. [15:43]
mircea_popescu: no conception of who the enemy is and why exactly, etcetera. [15:43]
asciilifeform: they were ~same as su academics , in that respect [15:43]
phf: well, folx in question plundered as much as they could from mit and carefully guarded whatever they themselves produce. i don't know about there not being "logical reason to publish" [15:43]
asciilifeform: and yes if you publish , patent troll could easily use it against you, so culture of seekrecy [15:44]
mircea_popescu: "worst thing that can happen to smart people is an easy money source early on" [15:44]
asciilifeform: 'must hide my theft' [15:44]
asciilifeform: same reason for ~90% of closedsourcedriverism today, say. [15:44]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something deeply wrong with response to mother shrieking about her daugher being fucked diverging from beating mother up / fucking her too. but... we digress. [15:45]
phf: it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs [15:45]
asciilifeform: hey if pyongyang or bucharest were running a lispm project and invited defectors, i suspect folx would've come [15:45]
asciilifeform: phf: aha, it was why scheme(orig. '79') cpu, evaporated [15:46]
mircea_popescu: amusingly bucharest had nfi idea at the time it COULKD have done such a thing. literally 0 conception of what any of the items we're discussing here WERE. at all. not even the priors present. [15:46]
asciilifeform: su had, interestingly, early and stillborn attempt at lispm [15:46]
asciilifeform: ( really, 'refal'-m ) [15:46]
mircea_popescu: phf i had the idea cadr more of a common ancestor, to smbx too. [15:46]
asciilifeform: ( died with the sunken atlantis, nothing afaik heard of it since 1990 ) [15:46]
phf: well, rms's nervous break down makes some sense when you actually read the code. there's a very obvious clear "steal everything that's not bolted" going on. cadr's SYSTEM sources were being developed in parallel with symbolics and LMI (to the point that there are conditionals in the cadr's code to compile os both on lmi and genera), with interactions slowly decreasing over time [15:49]
mircea_popescu: im not even sure what theft means in this context. [15:49]
mircea_popescu: can you define ? [15:49]
asciilifeform: iirc rms was most incensed re the luring away of ~people~, rather than lifted code [15:50]
mircea_popescu: the attempt might well illustrate why i meant above re (o oops, i stoled myself!) [15:50]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:43 mircea_popescu: it was involved as mental poison in these people's heads. [15:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i had the same impression. social not technological issue. [15:50]
asciilifeform: none of the code in question -- at least in so far as it is accessible to modern archaeologist's eye -- was particularly deep [15:51]
asciilifeform: ( re rms specifically ) [15:51]
asciilifeform: rms was not ,in so far as i can tell, involved in the aspects ) [15:51]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:10 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron. [15:51]
mircea_popescu: it is particularily difficult to explain what one means by theft of a) ideal objects by b) parties who actually own them intellectually and c) when the objects were produced within their lifetimes. [15:51]
asciilifeform: greenspun, on other hand -- was [15:52]
mircea_popescu: (ownership here means what it means sexually -- if she submits she's yours, woman, idea, whatever.) [15:52]
mircea_popescu: plurious agents can own the same idea in the mannger they can have the same girlfriend. knowing about it not required. [15:53]
asciilifeform: it was never clear to me from rms's surviving writing what he thought mit ought to have done with the lispm, if not to license to manufacturers [15:53]
asciilifeform: mit was never in the business of selling comps [15:53]
asciilifeform: i suspect that he simply did not even think about it. [15:53]
mircea_popescu: i suspect he was a bureaucrat (intellectually insufficient aware of this politically ambitious) and he resented the lack of control over smarter people. [15:54]
mircea_popescu: no more than this. [15:54]
mircea_popescu: his political activism later on entirely predicable on this. [15:55]
asciilifeform: d00d was in no sense in control tho [15:55]
asciilifeform: he wasn't the director of lispm group or anything of the kind [15:55]
mircea_popescu: control as the psychological construct is complicated. [15:55]
phf: mircea_popescu: i was taking a poetic liberty there. it's the new appearance of a self serving strategy where there wasn't necessarily one (or the strategy changes drastically). the core of activity shifts elsewhere, but the original points of contact are maintained for the sole purpose of taking any new ideas that might've been introduced. [15:55]
mircea_popescu: phf in the sense that they were trying to sell the machines, but avoid as much of the dev work as humanly possible ? [15:55]
asciilifeform: near as i can tell, he was the proverbial nursing home patient described on trilema, who says 'died, whaddayamean, died, where is jane?! we were USED to her' re every colleague who went off to bolix or lmi [15:56]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform entirely possible. [15:56]
mircea_popescu: bbs. [15:56]
phf: mircea_popescu: right [15:57]
mircea_popescu: not altogether clear how self-serving that was. [16:18]
mircea_popescu: given that a) someone was going to make a billion dollars and b) it'd have been preferable it not be gates & jobs. [16:19]
asciilifeform: re (b) neither of'em was pictured as in same market at all, any moar than pepsicola [16:19]
asciilifeform: sorta how northrop does not see itself in competition with cessna [16:20]
mircea_popescu: i could reinterpret the objection in the terms of "mit ai lab had no common ideology", a copacetic statement of "they failed to republic" which is exactly what i meant by and so on. [16:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:43 mircea_popescu: no conception of who the enemy is and why exactly, etcetera. [16:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the matter was fluid in 1980. could have been. [16:20]
mircea_popescu: nytimes also didn't "picture itself in competition with the weird net kids". and so following, chuck e cheese dude's "ipad restaurant" didn't see itself in competition with phones. "it's a restaurant". no it's not. [16:21]
asciilifeform: re ai lab -- mircea_popescu how do you picture a buncha taxpayer-funded academics not-'failing-to-republic' , hypothetically ? [16:23]
asciilifeform: what would this look like [16:23]
mircea_popescu: same way the same exact item opened cannon fire at the "taxpayers" from atop the walls of oxford. [16:23]
asciilifeform: they move to amish countryside and make lispms out of grass ? [16:23]
mircea_popescu: nope. they drag the local barristas into the campus by the hair to be raped for a weekend at a time. [16:24]
asciilifeform: oxford was a kind of su, or ro if you like, self-fueling [16:24]
mircea_popescu: so ? who made it that way, king bohemius the 9th ? [16:24]
asciilifeform: the fact that it was solar-powered ? [16:24]
mircea_popescu: change college admission to be more like arrest, for one thing. [16:24]
asciilifeform: ^ as depicted in stephensen's 'anathem' aha ! [16:25]
mircea_popescu: ("oh, romanian gymnasts!!!" "yeah, right. you are aware none of the girls actually wanted to be there, yes ?") [16:25]
asciilifeform: ( he worked entire fictional portrait of what imho is proper university... ) [16:25]
mircea_popescu: but leaving these proper statements aside -- never mind the civilisational aspect, limit yourself to culture. they might've bothered to realise the only enemy is the taxpayer, moved to limit his impact on government. exactly as the medieval collegiate disputes flew. [16:26]
mircea_popescu: there were two groups worth the mention during "golden age" of europe : mechants, and scholars. the prime characteristic of either ? immune to common law process! [16:27]
asciilifeform: superficially their scheme works to this day -- i.e. 'you can elect anyone you like, but he'll be a harvaprinceyalton graduate, muhahaha' [16:27]
mircea_popescu: merchants had merchant code, scholars had what meanwhile became an universalised immunity, "first conviction walk" [16:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except it doesn't do anything. works like a painting works. [16:27]
asciilifeform: at this point that describes their whole civilizational shebang, the hollow husk [16:28]
asciilifeform: but originally -- worked. or how do you suppose the 'ivies' got, and stayed, fat. [16:28]
mircea_popescu: fatness is not a goal of anything but pigs. [16:28]
mircea_popescu: the important point is to be able to make the world make fucking sense against the constant yelps of the idiots who want the world to be comfortable. [16:29]
mircea_popescu: and thereby, an ivory on every desk not a fucking windows. [16:29]
mircea_popescu: and if this takes putting a few million instagramers on stakes, ALL THE BETTER. [16:29]
asciilifeform: the winblowz item still strikes me as anachronistic, rather like the supposition that men killed tyranosaur. [16:29]
asciilifeform: the 2 were not contemporaneous. [16:29]
mircea_popescu: that final "all the better" being the republic part. they failed to construct this system whereby extreme violence applied to everyone else was a net positive, in and of itself, for no other reason. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 1983 to 1985 is 3600, yes ? [16:30]
asciilifeform: 1980-86 approx yea [16:30]
asciilifeform: ( e.g. my 3620 was circa '86 ) [16:30]
mircea_popescu: 1981, gates (and allen) struck ibm deal [16:30]
mircea_popescu: that made them exist. [16:30]
mircea_popescu: how not EXACT contemporaries ? [16:31]
asciilifeform: by that token jobs existed in '77 neh [16:31]
mircea_popescu: thjat is the ~only token re windows. [16:31]
asciilifeform: the 'mouse spores' were indeed, yes, present [16:31]
asciilifeform: hm ok i see it [16:31]
mircea_popescu: in 1982 microsoft was fully built. [16:31]
mircea_popescu: it was nothing else hence. [16:31]
asciilifeform: until mid '90s nobody even in bad dreams considered it a threat to industrial iron tho. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: SO ? [16:32]
mircea_popescu: until macrosensible nobody even in bad dreams considers the cancer a threat. [16:32]
asciilifeform: right. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: it's there whether considered or disconsidered. [16:32]
mircea_popescu: the over-reaching all-important point is that had the dudes of 1985 produced an ideologically-closed system, by 1995 there'd have been a WHERE for people to go, other than windows. [16:35]
asciilifeform: aha [16:36]
asciilifeform: ( see also observation ) [16:36]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 22:59 asciilifeform: this is the fate of all 'we don't have an ideology' derps [16:36]
mircea_popescu: (closed here means "without externalities" rather than anything else) [16:36]
asciilifeform: ideology is the only working pill against 'market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent' [16:36]
mircea_popescu: possibly there be others. [16:37]
asciilifeform: possibly, but not discovered yet. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: moreover -- doubtful pill. didn't help soviets didn't help romanians. [16:37]
mircea_popescu: the latter needed moar size the former a better ideology. evidently worked for eg china, so there is some tolerance. [16:37]
asciilifeform: it isn't an invincibility pill [16:38]
asciilifeform: but the moar i dig into ro , the more astonishing the level of fight it was able to put up [16:39]
asciilifeform: against the mcbeast. [16:39]
asciilifeform: and for how long. [16:39]
mircea_popescu: in this light quite remarkable, yes. [16:39]
mircea_popescu: you recall that (uncharacteristically well written) orlov article re "power of nyet" ? [16:40]
asciilifeform: aha ! [16:40]
mircea_popescu: very much it. extremely easy to defeat ustardation : just say no. it helps if you have a fully built system providing an alternative. [16:40]
asciilifeform: ( tho i liked the other one -- -- moar ) [16:40]
a111: Logged on 2014-07-28 19:19 asciilifeform: 'Learn not to participate - to the point of utter impossibility of meeting the enemy 'half-way' - and you will see that inside there lay a very useful mindfuck: in learning to 'nonparticipate,' in fact you drew out your *will* from its scabbard - to which it seemed so securely riveted by your upbringing. The appearance of *your will* changes everything and forever. With your own will slipped into your boot knife [16:40]
mircea_popescu: but anyway, in spite of an inability to speak in public, or to make sense, extemporaneously or not, ceausescu was a major player in the status quo of 70s and 80s. that whole "don't mix into the affairs of others", very strong nationalism, managed to paralyze the us-owned and hosted un for two decafdes. [16:41]
asciilifeform: not much of a talker, but he was quick enuff on his feet ( pointedly unlike the su gerontocrats ) [16:42]
asciilifeform: also he had an actual nation, properly speaking, and made full use of the fact [16:43]
mircea_popescu: ya prolly better statement. [16:43]
asciilifeform: ( nationalism dun work in usa because with what and verboten in su because ottoman-style empire ) [16:43]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the long run, stalin's internationalism proved the terribly wrong strategy. shoulda went with trotsky. [16:43]
mircea_popescu: trotsky too idiotic to have stalin killed back when he could. [16:43]
asciilifeform: by some accounts, d00d JustWanted(tm) [16:44]
mircea_popescu: kinda why the whole ww2 made him so trotsky-sensitive, too. [16:46]
mircea_popescu: << 1968 speech. "invasion a mistake and inconceivable outrage" most of the applause THAT time is genuine. "no justification available and no reasoning may be accepted" and so on. [16:47]
asciilifeform: << at the risk of repeating ancient thread, imho if there were a ready alternative ( as in geographic , rather than merely ideological ) to usa, for the remaining ~functional people to defect to -- usa wouldn't last a week [16:48]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 21:40 mircea_popescu: very much it. extremely easy to defeat ustardation : just say no. it helps if you have a fully built system providing an alternative. [16:48]
asciilifeform: or at the very least would retain the threadbare sanity of usa circa 1980s [16:48]
mircea_popescu: this is dubious. will last, china likes it. [16:48]
asciilifeform: china would make penal colony there, or something useful. [16:48]
mircea_popescu: nah. it's already very much siberia as far as they're concerned. [16:49]
mircea_popescu: fwis generally send shitty sons. [16:49]
asciilifeform: afaik feeling is quite mutual : to my knowledge no white man to date defected, properly speaking, to the rice kingdom [16:51]
mircea_popescu: a, lots. [16:51]
asciilifeform: anyone i might know of ? [16:51]
mircea_popescu: not usually advertised, but the expat community large indeed. [16:53]
asciilifeform: ( plenty of folx from, e.g., ru, living and working in cn. but i am speaking of ~defectors~, as in 'i'd rather have a flat in pekin than continue as lt. colonel at nsa ' ) [16:53]
asciilifeform: a defector as i understand the word, is a honoured guest of the crown [16:54]
asciilifeform: rather than simply i buy a plane ticket. [16:54]
asciilifeform: it is when the folx on ~other end~ buy you plane ticket. or for that matter whole plane. and villa. etc [16:55]
mircea_popescu: the problem with this is that soviet military man valuable chinese valuable romanian evidently valuable. what value does us tard bring ? [16:55]
mircea_popescu: it's like asking about "flea defectors". parasytes dun meaningfully defect. [16:55]
asciilifeform: tard none [16:55]
asciilifeform: mr. reti -- possibly value [16:55]
mircea_popescu: not with his current mannerisms. [16:56]
asciilifeform: hey for all i know pacepa also stuttered [16:56]
mircea_popescu: you'\re still missing the important point. usg is looking for a brand to show its large citizenry. much like every attempt to hold a tech fconference in argentina degenerates into a bunch of local tards speaking/stepping over each other to blather meaninglessly in the hope of thereby attaining a certificate of humanhood from the foreigners, [16:57]
mircea_popescu: just so ustards are going to buy pacepa's nonsensical books. [16:57]
mircea_popescu: the equivalent population does not exist, it's an epiphenomenon of collapsed colonies, like argentina, like america. [16:58]
asciilifeform: su did hire martin & mitchell [16:58]
mircea_popescu: it's not common for eg greeks or italians to go crazy over "the beatles", they simply make a local band like that and that's it. [16:58]
asciilifeform: that they did not enjoy it so much, was their own problem [16:58]
mircea_popescu: buncha defectors since korean war to china, but ... not nearly the same interest. [16:58]
asciilifeform: because nobody wants fucking rice, lol [16:59]
mircea_popescu: i suspect because no one wants americans for any purpose. [16:59]
asciilifeform: su found a use for martin&mitchell. and buncha other similars. even for oswald, lol [17:00]
asciilifeform: but naturally 'americans' dun get to defect, you gotta actually be someone [17:00]
asciilifeform: moar specific than just 'd00d with black passport' [17:01]
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper [17:01]
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes. [17:01]
asciilifeform: fromloper: who goes there [17:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't think of a competent anyone in the whole us army/navy/airforce brass. [17:01]
mircea_popescu: what exactly could you possibly use one for ? not like they even have the usual value of "stolen documents", i guarantee you if you examed the O-paygrade you'd find not a single soul as well informed as the famous contractor/defector. [17:02]
asciilifeform: engineers likely to know moar , i suspect, than general. and cost less. [17:02]
fromloper: Somehow manage to get here by clicking on contact. [17:02]
mircea_popescu: or i guess you don't count that one ? [17:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: defectors come in 'doing' shape as well as 'knowing' [17:03]
asciilifeform: e.g. skilled folx [17:03]
fromloper: This is however more pleasing to my eyes than the other black and green one [17:04]
mircea_popescu: well in this sense whole dnc long defected to china, moved desperately to prevent ru-us rapproachment back in the early days of 2016 when sitll possible. [17:04]
asciilifeform: fromloper: wai wat ? [17:04]
fromloper: [17:04]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in situ traitors are not properly speaking defectors [17:04]
asciilifeform: i.e. they dun dream to live out the rest of their days in pekin [17:05]
mircea_popescu: well how do you know what they dream etc. [17:06]
fromloper: Any discussion about btc or bch today? [17:06]
asciilifeform: fromloper: you just linked to a logtron. with search. [17:06]
asciilifeform: fromloper: could readily answer the question with your own hands. why do you ask people to do the work of machine for you ? [17:06]
asciilifeform: normally i would assume fromloper does not know about the log ( even though log is linked in subj line of #trilema ...! ) [17:07]
asciilifeform: but in this case even that excuse is not available [17:07]
asciilifeform: so fromloper what gives ? [17:07]
mircea_popescu: lol dood clicked a link, landed in pot. [17:07]
* asciilifeform must invoke herr babbage, 'i cannot rightfully apprehend the confusion of ideas...' [17:08]
fromloper: I was in the and clicked on contact and landed in this nice pot. [17:09]
asciilifeform: fromloper: relax, enjoy warm water [17:09]
asciilifeform: generally noobs are advised to read the log for a spell, before considering whether they have something to say [17:09]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'defectors' it is a quite nostalgic subject for asciilifeform , because it is an item from meanwhile wholly vanished, like roman empire, age, where escape from an empire was simply a matter of getting through a wall [17:10]
fromloper: ascii I have been reading logs when i relevant, also Trilema site. [17:11]
asciilifeform: ( even despite the 'being someone' point, consider that 1 sailor who jumped from sov ship. usa did not send him back... ) [17:11]
fromloper: What happened to qntra site [17:11]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> d00d was in no sense in control tho << Most bureaucrats aren't [17:11]
BingoBoingo: Bureacrats read scripts [17:11]
mircea_popescu: i don't think this subject of your nostalgia ever existed outside the vhs world. it's like muller. [17:12]
asciilifeform: it was able to exist when the wall was reasonably tight. [17:12]
mircea_popescu: i dunno [17:12]
asciilifeform: ( and when the aspiring escapees, i suspect, were the upper cut of the bell curve ) [17:12]
mircea_popescu: consider -- various mexican jumped border, us sent back. [17:13]
mircea_popescu: but in general -- did not send. [17:13]
asciilifeform: because they're seeking welfarola. [17:13]
mircea_popescu: this makes a point of some kind ? [17:13]
asciilifeform: and wall not so tall to begin with [17:13]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wait, and the sailor did not ? [17:13]
mircea_popescu: !!up abrelosojos [17:13]
deedbot: abrelosojos voiced for 30 minutes. [17:13]
asciilifeform: the sailor afaik just wanted out [17:13]
mircea_popescu: i seem to recall every single wall jumper net drain on puyblic chest for whole life. [17:13]
asciilifeform: dunno if it makes sense to call, e.g., pacepa, net drain [17:14]
asciilifeform: he did what whole army could not do [17:14]
mircea_popescu: rly ? cuz what, he had a martha stewart type show on tv ? [17:14]
asciilifeform: they sent whole ro kgb residentura in usa packing, neh [17:14]
asciilifeform: did moar counterintel 'bang for buck' in 5min than whole usg in 50yrs [17:15]
mircea_popescu: ro didn't really have agents in the us. [17:15]
asciilifeform: so, what, whole yarn disinfo ? [17:15]
mircea_popescu: ro did europe, mostly, kgb did us, mostly. they interoped. [17:15]
mircea_popescu: (kgb also did europe, because paranoid. not very good, but ample resources) [17:16]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, whbich yarn ? [17:16]
asciilifeform: e.g. 'horizons' [17:16]
asciilifeform: he goes on, and on, re residents in usa [17:16]
asciilifeform: and later was given cia medal ( afaik the only runaway to be awarded ) [17:17]
mircea_popescu: right, and he survived because he scared them off. laissez. [17:17]
asciilifeform: i've no clue why survived ( and it is by far not the only puzzle re the d00d ) [17:18]
mircea_popescu: this notion that ra-ra-ra usa-america is very much post 2000 nytimes construction. people in the 60s gave almost no shits about the us, unless like the italians they cxould directly leach. [17:18]
asciilifeform: possibly they kept him in whitehouse basement for 20yrs, whynot. [17:18]
asciilifeform: pacepa describes the afaik factual reason why his master gave a shit : semiconductor [17:19]
asciilifeform: it was the first and last thing to properly speaking happen in usa. [17:19]
mircea_popescu: people wanted to see italian films with antonelli, and french stuff, not hollywood nonsense. [17:19]
mircea_popescu: romanians got them from the soviets as a general rule. [17:19]
mircea_popescu: via switzerland or directly. [17:19]
asciilifeform: not according to pacepa [17:19]
mircea_popescu: well what can i tell you. [17:20]
asciilifeform: su had problems lifting equipment wholesale [17:20]
mircea_popescu: problems, everyone has. [17:20]
mircea_popescu: but eg, the pdp the romanians cloned was obtaind via soviets. the z80s were all swiss sourced. [17:21]
asciilifeform: according to pacepa -- su paid hard cash for what ro was able to lift from, e.g., texas instruments, hewlett-packard, the other giants. [17:21]
BingoBoingo: <fromloper> What happened to qntra site << The isp quite on us. Hopefully Qntra returns ~December 15th. [17:21]
asciilifeform: z80 was pre-vlsi item. think early '70s. [17:21]
mircea_popescu: a dubious story altogether. [17:21]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform early 70s was too late for pacepa lol. [17:21]
asciilifeform: at any rate i was not sitting with pacepa playing with vlsi, cannot say what part fact, what -- fiction [17:22]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: defected in '78 neh [17:23]
mircea_popescu: me either, nor could he have. anyway, to recap -- dood was chief of ro belin residency. once retired (from field work), about simultaneous with ceausescu ascension, was promoted to strategy role in bucharest. [17:23]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but by the 70s his active duty time was over. [17:23]
fromloper: Has anyone here ever discussed solving btc blockchain capacity problem? [17:25]
mircea_popescu: defected as a 50yo. a 50yo ready to claim oswald worked for kgb. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: fromloper what problem is that ? [17:25]
asciilifeform: fromloper: how does one go about solving a wholly fictional problem ? [17:25]
fromloper: MP The ever increasing amount of data [17:26]
asciilifeform: fromloper: how would you propose to make a bitcoin without monotonically increasing data set ? [17:26]
mircea_popescu: << revisit 2015. [17:26]
mircea_popescu: things don't change just because new generation of lambs came out of pregnant ewes this spring like each othe rspring before it. [17:26]
fromloper: mp read that. [17:27]
mircea_popescu: the claim would be more presuasive had you referenced it. [17:27]
fromloper: I have been looking into it and maybe there is a solution. However i am no expert computer programmer [17:27]
asciilifeform: fromloper: what is the problem to which you wish to see 'a solution' ? [17:28]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider : pacepa defected in bonn. why not in new york ? except if there was 0 reason for the spy chief to ever go to new york. and his period item (letter to dana) is knee deep in eurocentric issues. noel bernard, srsly ? who the fuck cares about noel bernard. [17:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: again not having been there, cannot say. but presumably more watched by politruk, say, in nyc, than in bonn [17:29]
fromloper: Banks curently keep a records of all txs and each account holder gets a personal statement [17:29]
asciilifeform: some element of planets-aligned-correctly [17:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was the nominal chief of the whole shebang. [17:29]
mircea_popescu: and he went to the hot spot of the whole shebang, which was teh germanies. [17:29]
mircea_popescu: i'm telling you. romania mostly did europe. [17:29]
fromloper: Blockchain could be redesign to hold the data and each address and balance over 1 sat. each user would have their own mini blockcahin of txs and not others. [17:30]
mircea_popescu: and yes soviets paid occasionally for ro sourced tech. it was without known exception (to me) sourced in eg france. [17:30]
asciilifeform: he describes the usa trips as specifically for the purpose of building cred, to get access to semiconductor goodies [17:30]
mircea_popescu: !!down fromloper [17:30]
mircea_popescu: describes in 1980. [17:30]
asciilifeform: lol this fromloper was the saddest one to date iirc [17:31]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: they dun make pinoys like they usedta. 'each user would have their own mini blockcahin of txs and not others' [17:31]
asciilifeform: this has got to be a new record. [17:32]
mircea_popescu: they're fucked in the head, it's a cultural disease. [17:32]
mircea_popescu: "everyone will be main player in his own world of warcraft!" [17:32]
asciilifeform: this is something yet else, gotta be saturnism or the like [17:32]
BingoBoingo: So do we contact Fort Meade or jolo to get an RMA number for this one [17:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, to put things in readily meaningful perspective : you going "oh shit, we can use this bit i dug up out of bernstein to improve phuctor speed" is 100% what a PRIME example of such "sourced tech" would have been. that the soviets'd have paid for and the whole project involved would be decorated and congratulated after taking however long, 18 months to do it. [17:39]
asciilifeform: well yes it's what asciilifeform's father did for a living [17:39]
asciilifeform: and million other people [17:39]
mircea_popescu: that was the level. the problem with the romanians wasn't that they couldn't steal -- of course they could nor that it was in any way immoral or dubious to steal -- holy hell, country-in-development trying to catch up with technology, a good half of the techs involved were sympathetic anyway. [17:40]
mircea_popescu: it was that a) it didn't know what to steal (as per above re lisp) and b) it couldn't steal fast enough. [17:40]
mircea_popescu: this b especially. [17:40]
asciilifeform: well there was also a (c) [17:40]
asciilifeform: as illustrated by kurt tank in argentina [17:40]
mircea_popescu: not afaik. [17:40]
mircea_popescu: hm ? [17:40]
asciilifeform: i.e. 'where do you plug in the electron microscope in goatfuckistan' problem [17:40]
mircea_popescu: no such problem. [17:41]
asciilifeform: it was a problem even for asciilifeform's father, cloning film projectors and discovering that the necessary spring steel could not be had [17:41]
mircea_popescu: for one thing, 60s and 70s tech was not really advanced enough in this sense for the other, ro actually had better experts than the us had. just -- not enough of them. [17:41]
asciilifeform: better expert does not necessarily make the necessary spring available in qty. [17:41]
mircea_popescu: think -- the whole romanian section of ms/google etc was... in romania. that previous generation. [17:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform romania was moar industrialized than the soviets, in this sense. had fine alloys. had fine mechanics, everything. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: like czechs exactly (another major source of soviet such needs) [17:42]
asciilifeform: or like gdr [17:42]
mircea_popescu: but the czechs -- even fewer. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: those -- brand apart. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: let's say "somewhat like" [17:42]
asciilifeform: ( by some accounts ru strategic telecom ~to this day~ runs on gdr iron ) [17:42]
mircea_popescu: seems likely. [17:43]
asciilifeform: before i fughet, here's asciilifeform's microscopy crackpottery of the day : contact print. consider, 370,000 transistors, on item roughly 1cm x 1cm. attach to standard ccd, say the 25 megapixel sort, and image with e.g. soft xray. [17:45]
mircea_popescu: anyway. between this, "tech spying" and a whole lot of coutnerintel and military wankery, you've 99% of ro activity in the cold war. the former half minor in the early part and growing monotonously to come to overshadow latter part by 70s. [17:46]
mircea_popescu: the pacepa nutteries with assassinations etc -- footnote, if present. then, as now, ~nobody gave a shit. [17:47]
asciilifeform: semiconductor -- was the item about which gave a shit. [17:47]
mircea_popescu: you know ro made its own semiconductors. what exactly ? [17:47]
mircea_popescu: !~google iprs baneasa [17:48]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: ROMÂNIA FURATĂ. IPRS Băneasa , cumpărată la preţ de maşină de ...: <> ROMÂNIA FURATĂ. IPRS Băneasa , o uzină cumpărată cu acte false ...: (1 more message) [17:48]
asciilifeform: was able to make because good tech intel work, neh. [17:48]
asciilifeform: rather than burning the 1000 manyears to bake from 1st principles [17:48]
mircea_popescu: ^ 20 acre compound in bucarest. started production 62. [17:48]
asciilifeform: what did they make in '62 ? [17:49]
asciilifeform: afaik in '62 su made strictly diode and transistor [17:49]
asciilifeform: ( as in , discrete items ) [17:49]
mircea_popescu: well i had the catalogs by year somewhere [17:49]
BingoBoingo: In other lessons learned today, Montevideo free trade zone offers tax savings... Which at ISP scale would swiftly be consumed by "user fees" to the operator of the zona franca [17:50]
mircea_popescu: so, in 1962 they had germanium doped transistors. under ~license~ you get this, thomson csf. [17:51]
asciilifeform: pretty neato tho [17:51]
mircea_popescu: 1963 first self-produced item, photodiode. [17:51]
mircea_popescu: and fluorescent lamp starters. [17:52]
asciilifeform: notbad. in 1953 was what, plows. [17:52]
mircea_popescu: 1964 export diodes to france, 1966 first ic. [17:52]
mircea_popescu: then they made automated coil makers, and various production line automatics [17:52]
mircea_popescu: (this is 99% of what they did, even the z80 clones were intended for production line control, which it was hard to get one at home0 [17:53]
asciilifeform: in su also for production lines. and for artillery. [17:53]
mircea_popescu: !~google doina didiv [17:53]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Doina Didiv Profiles | Facebook: <> Doina Didiv | Facebook: <> Petition · Donald Trump: Americans want their Doina ! · <> [17:53]
mircea_popescu: ^ many years chief-of-C (ic section) [17:53]
asciilifeform: 'What is Doina, you ask? Is it a candy bar? A protein bar? Does it contain meat, or is it gluten free and vegan? I. Don't. Know.' << lol!! [17:54]
asciilifeform: ( from last link ) [17:54]
mircea_popescu: meh, nuts. [17:54]
mircea_popescu: lessee [17:54]
mircea_popescu: << period photo collection [17:55]
mircea_popescu: woman, 3rd on top line. [17:55]
asciilifeform: oh hm [17:55]
mircea_popescu: << interview. possibly dude still answers to callsign [17:56]
mircea_popescu: << dood has various interestingobilia, incl ana pauker's traintrack-armoredcar. [17:57]
asciilifeform: ( in further continuation of the microscopy q : what the everliving fuck happened to the beta ray microscope ? theoretically can do ~same thing as sem, but no need for massive electron gun, million volt power supply, or the vacuum pumps. where is it ?? ) [17:58]
mircea_popescu: heh [17:58]
mircea_popescu: check her out, exporting 3 inch silicium monocrystals. [17:59]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that car looks like it were shot ? [17:59]
mircea_popescu: well yes. [17:59]
asciilifeform: but pauker died of cancer neh [18:00]
mircea_popescu: afaik [18:00]
asciilifeform: and what even was the reason for such an odd vehicle [18:01]
mircea_popescu: who even knows! [18:01]
asciilifeform: i've seen draisines on the railroad many times. but repair trucks, not limo. [18:01]
mircea_popescu: i know, that's why i linked. dood has all sorts of weird. [18:01]
asciilifeform: verily. [18:01]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, asciilifeform buys a chinesium hf-to-120mhz upconverter thing for rtlsdr , and discovers that he has to take the thing apart and trace pcb traces, and crosscheck with chipset data sheet, to learn which hose is 'in' and which is 'out' ! they did not bother to label ! ( not even in chinese . ) [19:06]
BingoBoingo: lol [19:13]
doppler: wow, nice going guys [19:14]
BingoBoingo: doppler: On what? [19:18]
doppler: on designing that PCB [19:19]
BingoBoingo: !!up hubud [19:25]
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes. [19:25]
BingoBoingo: From the fake oped mines: "Hey, Tech Companies: Knock It Off With the Apps That Let People Change Their Skin Color" [19:25]
doppler: asciilifeform: it was an ebay find, right? [19:26]
mircea_popescu: doppler what are you on about ? [19:26]
mircea_popescu: be specific. [19:26]
doppler: what's confusing? ascii is talking about an upconverter he bought. [19:27]
mircea_popescu: ah. [19:27]
doppler: I wasn't saying nice going to you guys :) [19:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is one guy as far as anyone knows. [19:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have utterly no patience to listen to this kalman thing. i made it 13 minutes, but a) terrible snr and b) his voice is insufferable. [19:28]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: transracialism is a thing! [19:31]
BingoBoingo: In further developments, little miss trainwreck has just had a tire swapped on her motor carriage for the 7th time in 2 weeks [19:31]
mircea_popescu: who ? [19:31]
ben_vulpes: is she buying really really really used tires? spares only? [19:31]
mircea_popescu: is this code for "bb got laid" [19:31]
ben_vulpes: bb has a mentee i think? [19:31]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Girl I've been driving around as favor for her sponsor. [19:31]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "sponsor" is how you say "dude paying for the rent" in slang of romanian student/whore (pitipoanca). [19:32]
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> is she buying really really really used tires? spares only? << Today she figured out rim was cracked and that's why hey were going flat. [19:33]
ben_vulpes: quit drivin on the sidewalls girl [19:33]
BingoBoingo: Lol, her sponsor is a a lady who is trying to guide miss trainwreck through 12 steps and figured "Hey, she needs to learn how to make friends. BingoBoingo, here's a chance to practice some patience and let her try to be your friend" [19:35]
mircea_popescu: from experience women that failed to make friends by the age of about 13 or so will never manage. [19:36]
BingoBoingo: Well, mentally when you account for the years lost to dopeism [19:37]
mircea_popescu: i guess there's that. [19:37]
* BingoBoingo does not plan to take little miss trainwreck to Montevideo [19:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at some point i'ma 'fan-sub' the thing (unless somebody else gets to it 1st) [19:40]
asciilifeform: doppler yes it's an ebayism howdja guess [19:40]
asciilifeform: cheap, angry [19:40]
doppler: always fun [19:40]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> is this code for "bb got laid" << Nah, she's a white girl. Practically has a Cherenkov glow of warning signs, but is making an effort to stay sober. Is however a source of entertainment watching the petite weapon of mass destruction operate. Much as the BingoBoingo is a valuable customer service lab, driving this kitten around is valuable wmd development lab. [19:46]
BingoBoingo: And she pays cash for chauffer service [19:47]
asciilifeform: ftr $item dunwork. [20:01]
asciilifeform: f--- would not chinesiate again [20:01]
BingoBoingo: That corresponds to my experience negotiating with the (Cantonese speaking) chinese [20:11]
BingoBoingo: !~later tell danielpbarron [20:20]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded. [20:20]
phf: hehe, somehow i read every single thing that BingoBoingo wrote about the girl as some form of double entedre [20:20]
phf: the explanations only make it worse [20:20]
BingoBoingo: Triple even [20:20]
BingoBoingo: I am learning so much from her talking about her shopping process for next motor carriage [20:21]
BingoBoingo: brb, sobertime [20:23]
phf: it might be a sign of old age, that you attract those tiny kittens, and while they talk you're like "jesus fucking christ you're so dumb", but then you tell them to do a little trick and they do it almost correctly, and you're like "oh hey you're educable, neat, what else can you do" [20:25]
asciilifeform: oh did i mention, the balun crumbled in my hands ? [20:29]
mod6: phf: hehe [20:29]
asciilifeform: oh and did i mention, it was a ~security camera~ balun ?! [20:29]
mircea_popescu: the double entendre is now a triple entente. [20:31]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perhaps you don't know your own strengths. [20:32]
asciilifeform: and it isn't as if there is nonchinese equipment for sale somewhere. unless you count the for-usg 'weight in gold' nonsense [20:32]
asciilifeform: lel [20:32]
asciilifeform: ( how many burn with desire to pay 5k usd for receiver ) [20:33]
davout: in other lulz goldmines [20:33]
asciilifeform: davout: it is not clear from link, are they begging for donation in proper btc, or shitcoinz [20:35]
davout: latter [20:35]
davout: but i'm sure they'd accept the former, to "raise awareness" [20:36]
davout: the thing that amuses me, is that they seem to be rehashing exactly the same nonsense as proper bitcoin reddit was doing 3 or 4 years ago [20:38]
asciilifeform: ymean prb reddit ? [20:39]
davout: exact same nonsense, "raise funds for marketing campaigns", "ask merchants to accept it", "tipping bots", literally the exact same things [20:39]
davout: asciilifeform: yes [20:39]
asciilifeform: lol tipping [20:39]
mircea_popescu: idiots making progress forward can only be possibly used for oven stoking. [20:40]
asciilifeform: and how come nobody 'ask merchants to accept' gold [20:40]
mircea_popescu: "years of infighting" ? what, over this week-old fart ? [20:40]
mircea_popescu: davout they're ~same people. [20:40]
mircea_popescu: the problem with "tide lifts all boats" is that where boat is comes as function of boat not function of "tides". [20:41]
davout: "Let's as X to accept buttcash donations" [20:42]
mircea_popescu: subsistence african farmer is not subsistence african farmer "for lack of opportunities", but for subsistence farmer substance. whether in detroit or durban [20:42]
asciilifeform: african farmer is three steps ahead of redditus [20:42]
mircea_popescu: depends from where you count. [20:42]
asciilifeform: farmer at least has a notion of causality, say [20:42]
asciilifeform: and of finite resource [20:43]
mircea_popescu: absolutely not. [20:43]
mircea_popescu: they both have the ~exact same notion. "follow group and moo." [20:43]
asciilifeform: redditus neither sows nor reaps [20:43]
mircea_popescu: they both sow and reap in the same way the same things : incomprehensible seeds on uncomprehended space. [20:43]
mircea_popescu: dja understand, asciilifeform, what my bizarre address MEANS ? to you, it's just a curio. you readily fail to realise that the CAUSE of that is that local simply has no notion of cartesian space. [20:44]
mircea_popescu: you think, "how could mind exist, that fails to understand every plane has underneath system of coordinates". [20:44]
mircea_popescu: it can. hence, for instance, no roads here cross. they loop. dja even grok on your own what i fucking mean by this ? [20:44]
mircea_popescu: cuz it's a stretch of the imagination in a way not commonly required to stretch. [20:45]
asciilifeform: i've not worked as a caretaker of the profoundly retarded, neh, so can't say i experienced directly [20:45]
mircea_popescu: you may, on a novel road, wonder if it's a dead end. i don't wonder that. i know it's a dead end. because no CONCEPTION of grid, see. it's not that they failed to implement it. it's that they don't realise such exists. [20:45]
mircea_popescu: nothing is ever signalled not even one way streets. because the local never ventures outside of spaces it knows, so doesn't need signals. why not ventures ? [20:46]
mircea_popescu: and so on following until you fall over. [20:46]
asciilifeform: grid requires some notion of future, vs extending like tree roots [20:46]
mircea_popescu: it's what i mean by "uncomprehended space". [20:47]
mircea_popescu: shall we now do the incomprehensible seed ? all the way to the witch doctors, just as good as medicine ? [20:47]
asciilifeform: farmer gotta conceptualize at least seasons tho, neh [20:47]
mircea_popescu: neh. [20:47]
mircea_popescu: farmer, like the sheep that he IS, merely follows the herd, and dies with it. [20:47]
mircea_popescu: that's the great "progress" of agriculture : the shepherd's sheep were replaced by bypedal farmers. [20:47]
mircea_popescu: just as sheep as the sheep. [20:48]
mircea_popescu: has "a conception" of seasons. a sheep's notion of the world surroundant. [20:48]
mircea_popescu: wtf does he need the difference between surround-ing and surround-ant ? mordant is not a word, is it ? [20:48]
mircea_popescu: aaanyway. let's move to a diff topic lest i thoroughly depress myself. [20:48]
asciilifeform: i now recall some anthropologist who had problems giving fiction, incl simple hypotheticals, to some african sad sacks [20:49]
asciilifeform: who , yes, had no coprocessor for it... [20:49]
asciilifeform: depressing. [20:49]
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that the antenna per se, turned out to be... old lamp cord [20:50]
asciilifeform: the only further insult i can think of, is if it somehow were to set the rubbish bin where i threw it, on fire [20:51]
mircea_popescu: should have prolly dissected it on blog. [20:51]
asciilifeform: ars longa... [20:52]
asciilifeform: gotta wonder, how many other 'hey it's soo cheap and available!' technomarvels, on examination would turn up to be exactly same as this [20:56]
mircea_popescu: aren't we like 100% to date ? [20:57]
mircea_popescu: what technomarvel worked once sat upon ? [20:57]
asciilifeform: sorta like asciilifeform's discovery few yrs ago, where turned out that e.g. lathe was considerably easier to get in '50s than today, but 'hey , hurr , 3d printers!!' etc [20:58]
asciilifeform: lolyea nearly 100 [20:59]
asciilifeform: 'here have iron that dun heat' 'have a radio that picks up only own tuner oscillator' bbut at leadt Cheap!! [21:00]
asciilifeform: *least [21:00]
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu had article where 'they're ceremonial objects, actual functionality in'em is like legs on snake' or similar [21:02]
mircea_popescu: i'm sure. [21:02]
deedbot: << Trilema - Items [21:27]
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> quit drivin on the sidewalls girl << lel [21:35]
mod6: ooh laboratorio & hacker-space [21:40]
mircea_popescu: realidad virtual! [21:47]
mod6: my first time in .mx many many years ago, i was like "Bimbo Bread? wtf, don't they know..." [21:52]
asciilifeform: fascinating read btw. [22:02]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:58 mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet) [22:02]
wer: hello [22:06]
phf: !#seenbefore wer [22:10]
phf: heh [22:10]
wer: how do i view my id on wot [22:25]
mod6: hi, are you looking @ ? [22:33]
wer: i'm not sure [22:36]
wer: how do i identify myself? [22:36]
mod6: [22:39]
mod6: it seems like you already did an "!!up" to deedbot. [22:40]
wer: yes i did [22:41]
wer: there's this message "This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>." [22:41]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> the double entendre is now a triple entente. << You probably wouldn't be interested in Miss trainwreck because height is in the range that is short for you and ergonomic for me [22:43]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i've not worked as a caretaker of the profoundly retarded, neh, so can't say i experienced directly << Do you want to come visit before we depart for our seperate ventures? I can make introductions. Maybe even get you some shifts at the BingoBoingo store. [22:44]
mod6: wer: did you register your nick with nickserv? [22:45]
wer: i'm not entirely sure [22:46]
wer: i logged on here 2 or 3 days ago [22:46]
mod6: Registered : Dec 31 06:23:43 2009 (7y 45w 5d ago) [22:47]
mod6: not too much younger than mine even [22:47]
mod6: so when you connect to irc do you do the typical 'identify' command with nickserv ? [22:47]
wer: i don't [22:48]
wer: perhaps another user from before used the same nickname too [22:48]
mod6: yeeep [22:48]
mod6: and if that person grabs it back with 'ghost' or whatever, then you're sol. [22:49]
wer: damn [22:50]
mod6: are you sure it wasn't you that set it up so long ago? [22:50]
wer: very [22:51]
mod6: ah, ok. well... im not sure what the protocol is then for changing your nick in deedbot, but I'm sure trinque needs to assist you with that/ [22:52]
mod6: s/\/// [22:52]
wer: ah thanks anyway [22:54]
trinque: isn't any method for changing a nick. [23:00]
trinque: you can just register a new key, though [23:00]
mod6: ah, ok. thx trinque [23:00]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [23:36]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 6800.0, vol: 13477.06062120 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 6776.8, vol: 55613.40039211 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 6860.9, vol: 4520.58920367 | Volume-weighted last average: 6786.21230096 [23:36]
mats: << any suggestions for (preferably en-translated) reading material on this subj? [23:52]
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 19:03 asciilifeform: trinque: btw it was not clear to the folks who ran the camps, that this naturally-occurring system of hierarchy was a net plus re: net tonnage from the mines. hence the 'vory/suka wars' mircea_popescu referenced, a famous case where su authorities tried to monkey with the 'org chart' [23:52]
trinque: if tits register a new key, are they thereby new tits? [23:59]
Category: Logs
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