Forum logs for 15 Nov 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
BingoBoingo: For trinque and other parties interested in shipping their own boxes, considering the current cost basis and exchange rates to get a server homed for the first year is looking like ~0.57-0.6 BTC per rack unit (minding that especially power hungry servers may count as multiple rack units despite their physical footprint) [00:25]
trinque: bit steep. how'd you arrive at that? [00:35]
BingoBoingo: Math is ({[Montly costs of rack + business address + cost of off the shelf corporation (amoratized over 12 months)]/40 rentable rack units} * 12 months) * 2 per at 6800 usd per BTC [01:07]
a111: Logged on 2017-10-22 05:20 mircea_popescu: your cost basis is ~200 per server. you can rent them for 3-400 as such, or can give out vpsen, which are more productive. perhaps even "shared" if particularily interested into it. [01:07]
BingoBoingo: amoratizing fixed costs (corporation, LACNIC IP address assignment) over 24 months rather than 12 offers little reduction in cost basis [01:12]
BingoBoingo: Mind that this includes minimum viable commercial address (comes with locker, desk and coffee) for 244 monthly after VAT [01:14]
BingoBoingo: Doing anything in a Zona Franca would allow for avoiding VAT, but it would put the bill for a commercial address close to the cost of the rack and come with pressure to hire 3 descendants of Italian refugees [01:16]
* BingoBoingo still refining worksheet [01:17]
BingoBoingo: *244 USD monthly on the desk [01:19]
BingoBoingo: The meat of the cost is in rack with connectivity [01:21]
* BingoBoingo does not know what alf-isp numbers look like, but does not imagine too different [01:22]
BingoBoingo: Mind that ~0.6 ish BTC hit this year to home a server would mean ISP exists for next year when FX risk likely takes more favorable turn and cost basis starts diminishing [01:28]
* BingoBoingo to bed. Hopes these numbers/reasoning receive comment. [01:40]
trinque: curious what happens to the price when btc buying power increases, as it likes to do. [02:01]
trinque: could be as simple as billing monthly in advance, calculating bill as u*$operatingCost*1.15/40 or whatever margin atop you think is reasonable. $operatingCost denominated in BTC should be going down all the time [02:07]
trinque: * $u [02:08]
mircea_popescu: mod6 aha! fucking hysterical. and it's a huge paper-bread franchise too, all over latam. [05:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my pleasure. [05:36]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo check out the wonders of mother nature! no need to quarrel! [05:37]
mircea_popescu: wer perhaps another user from before used the same nickname too << yes. someone else registered the nick, but didn't set enforcement on it. as a result you can use it (you don't get kicked by nickserv) but can't register it yourself. ask in #freenode if they're willing to move it over to you if not, find a diff name and register that. [05:38]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : "gerry john Submitted on 2017/11/14 at 11:16 p.m. HELLO EVERYONE I AM GIVING A TESTIMONY OF HOW I GOT RICH POWERFUL AND FAMOUS TODAY" [05:44]
mircea_popescu: somehow the african notion of "famous" does not preclude the need to "give testimony". wouldn't i already know about him if he were famous ? [05:44]
mircea_popescu: oh wait, THEYRE JUST WORDS. and yet the usg socialist is not ==== the subsaharan retard. because... DIFFERENCE, just like FAMOUS. they'll give testimony on the difference! [05:45]
mircea_popescu: (in other lulz : nigeria took over south africa to become africa's largest economy years ago). [05:46]
mircea_popescu: "emerging global power" and whatnot. [05:47]
mircea_popescu: << mno, you can't get both margins. either you put your whole cost structure into the bottom line, in which case you charge that or else you put your recurrents into the bottom line, charge *2 and amortize your fixed costs out of the 2nd part of that *2. [06:03]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 06:12 BingoBoingo: amoratizing fixed costs (corporation, LACNIC IP address assignment) over 24 months rather than 12 offers little reduction in cost basis [06:03]
mircea_popescu: << see, this is the terrible habit of poor organisation. you don't say "VAT here is x%, and apparently can be avoided in so and so circumstances with so and so riders which works out to a minimum Y value past which it's worth doing". [06:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 06:14 BingoBoingo: Mind that this includes minimum viable commercial address (comes with locker, desk and coffee) for 244 monthly after VAT [06:05]
mircea_popescu: which is what you SHOULD say. no exceptions. [06:05]
mircea_popescu: you just say "VAT". it can not be said, this word, by itself. it must be introduced, and retrospective half-ass, i'm not even gonna mention the % is rather infuriating. [06:06]
mircea_popescu: << there's significant FX exposure in this scheme. consider the situations : someone pays you .6 BTC to whatever. a) BTC goes to 1mn usd he has now paid you 600k to do work worth 4k or so. this eventuality tends to discourage longer term payments. [06:14]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 06:28 BingoBoingo: Mind that ~0.6 ish BTC hit this year to home a server would mean ISP exists for next year when FX risk likely takes more favorable turn and cost basis starts diminishing [06:14]
BingoBoingo: VAT here is off pissing 22% on "services". Will rechew numbers [06:14]
mircea_popescu: b) btc goes to $1. you're now on the hook for the same 3.5k, but if you didn't change the BTC to cash as you received it, you have no way to cover for it. this possibility makes just like a, people not want to pay long term. [06:14]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile if you DO cash it out as you get it, you cash it out as you get it (missing out on a along with your customer). [06:15]
mircea_popescu: i expect the correct solution will be weekly payments on yearly contracts. otherwise we end up encouraging antieconomic behaviour. [06:15]
mircea_popescu: trinque ^ that sound like sense ? "you get this rack for a year, to be paid $x every mon" ? [06:16]
mircea_popescu: mon*day i mean. [06:16]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the problem with vat is that yes it's fucking annoying. but on one hand it generally replaces tarriffs, ie contrary to how annoying it is it has a neutral delta (case of dun shoot the messenger) and on the other hand many jurisdictions offer credible solutions. eg, romania has no vat for corps under a certain threshold, which is why i have corps there. [06:17]
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine brazil doesn't have something similar. [06:17]
mircea_popescu: o look, they don't. hm. [06:18]
BingoBoingo: The problem is the "services" VAT hits on the rack [06:19]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it's a VALUE ADDED tax. you get it back when you export. [06:20]
mircea_popescu: ie, if you buy a 1mn worth of widgets, 22% vat, and then you sell them, for 1.1mn, 22% vat, you will get back 220k worth of vat to offset your 242k obligation, leaving you with a 22k vat net payment on the .1mn you actually added. [06:21]
mircea_popescu: so if you pay vat on the racks, see how exactly you qualify to get it back. [06:21]
mircea_popescu: (if you do. govts are notoriously iffy about ACTUALLY living up to the part of their promise where money flows back out) [06:21]
mircea_popescu: << actually this suggests to me a grand scheme which'd allow us to produce an ACTUAL bitcoin price! behold the following scheme : [06:24]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 11:16 mircea_popescu: mon*day i mean. [06:24]
mircea_popescu: every fixing day (arbitrary day of week we choose), tmsr.isp lists the TOTAL it has to pay, and makes a bitcoin/usd offer. it can be arbitrarily anything, but in practice it'll be the output of !~ticker --market all Volume-weighted last average: bit (which is fucking ridiculous already, we're tracking bitfinex who the fuck came up with this) or else whatever rate whatever exchange the isp uses. [06:26]
mircea_popescu: each of its customers has a choice : can either settle the amt due in bitcoin, at the proposed rate, or else can offer to make wire payment, for the TOTAL amount only. [06:27]
mircea_popescu: if more than 1 customers option to pay via wire, the price is lowered by 1% in rounds until only one is left standing. [06:27]
mircea_popescu: this is pureblood fixing, much like prices were established back when the jews did it, before socialists murdering them all and taking over. [06:27]
diana_coman: !!seen PeterL [06:32]
deedbot: 2017/09/16 03:22:27 <PeterL> Why is it that papers written by one guy still insist on using the "We" form for all the things they do? [06:32]
diana_coman: I've been playing around with the keccak implementation from PeterL and it seems overall all right [06:33]
mircea_popescu: o yeah i wonder what he's up to [06:34]
diana_coman: I don't even know whether he tested it or how otherwise also not sure if there isn't some way around using Strings.Unbounded [06:34]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> so if you pay vat on the racks, see how exactly you qualify to get it back. << More is to be done here [06:36]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> if more than 1 customers option to pay via wire, the price is lowered by 1% in rounds until only one is left standing. << Now this is interesting [06:37]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it's also only functional if we really have enough of a bottom line to make weekly wires feasible. nobody's wiring 300 bux [06:38]
BingoBoingo: Right, but it's a direction to grow in [06:39]
mircea_popescu: kinda teh point :p [06:39]
mircea_popescu: the more shit we get the more shit we can get. [06:40]
* BingoBoingo to a lab, then mathtime [06:58]
mircea_popescu: and in other mangoes, [07:44]
mircea_popescu: !!up mobile46836 [07:47]
deedbot: mobile46836 voiced for 30 minutes. [07:47]
asciilifeform: << his keccak.adb per se, didn't use it. it was in the demo routine, for file i/o ( entirely unnecessarily) [08:51]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 11:34 diana_coman: I don't even know whether he tested it or how otherwise also not sure if there isn't some way around using Strings.Unbounded [08:51]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, right [09:08]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you can painlessly abolish 99% of where typical cprogramming victim would use a dynamicism, by use of the declare-begin-end construct to allocate statics on the current stackframe [09:18]
asciilifeform: ( see also , and ffa ) [09:19]
* diana_coman finds ada rather endearingly - possibly because it reminds of Pascal [09:19]
diana_coman: will check [09:19]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it was made out of pascal [09:19]
asciilifeform: ( legend has it, there were three ada contestants, and the pascalist won. nothing is known re others. ) [09:20]
diana_coman: we were started on pascal in 9th grade and explicitly "because it forces order and neatness unlike c/cpp" unfortunately at uni it was mainly c/cpp/java [09:20]
* asciilifeform grew up with, and liked, pascal [09:20]
asciilifeform: funnily enough it was also taught in 9th g. of ameristani school. at least when i went to it [09:21]
asciilifeform: ( year after, replaced with... vb ) [09:21]
diana_coman: aha, I liked it too but then everywhere I went it was [09:21]
asciilifeform: microshit sets curriculum.. [09:22]
diana_coman: oh, ugh and yes, now you mention it I think it was same-change in Ro too [09:22]
asciilifeform: ada ( even asciilifeform's 'fascist' ada subset ) is not exactly pascal. imho the most notable departure is the array slice abstraction, which makes for a 90% moar compact ffa ( and applies to almost anything else dealing in bitstrings, for that matter ) [10:36]
asciilifeform: the 'declare' construct mentioned earlier, also iirc did not exist in traditional pascal [10:37]
asciilifeform: neither did modular types of arbitrary bitness, and several other minor nuts and bolts of ffa, that i cannot immediately recall. [10:38]
asciilifeform: ( runtime generic instantiation certainly did not exist, and really has no analogous item in any other statically compiled language afaik ) [10:38]
diana_coman: oh, certainly I wasn't under any illusion that ada==pascal, no there is some danger in the perceived similarity too, basically the "false friend" type [10:46]
mircea_popescu: re the "I don't even know whether he tested it or how otherwise" bit -- this is the sad effect of publishing pastes/github links etc. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: a snipped of code IS NOT SUFFICIENT. you gotta say ALL SORTS of things. such as this, yes, how it was tested and for what. and so following. [12:07]
asciilifeform: pretty sure asciilifeform typically eats moar space in l0gz per paste, than paste weighs [12:07]
mircea_popescu: just like in physics you can't say "5", a number, gotta say 5 WHATS just how BingoBoingo can't say "VAT", just so programmer can't say "here'\s code" [12:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but this is notoriously bad arrangement. put them in a single node in a place organized for this. [12:08]
mircea_popescu: something like works a lot better because i can generally handle it on my own and if not can discuss it there, which also helps with scheduling. [12:09]
asciilifeform: i've enough trouble keeping track of 9000 mutually contradictory variants of every possible thing, on own disk [12:09]
asciilifeform: much less for publication. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: but at some time you stop actively working on it [12:09]
mircea_popescu: that's the wrap-up. [12:09]
asciilifeform: at that time whole thing gets v-released. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: no. that's when you stop altogether. when you stop working on it FOR NOW [12:10]
asciilifeform: as it is , 100% of the thing is in may-theoretically-change form. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: and more generally -- gotta organize your own process to interop sanely with others. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not a matter of the thing. a matter of you. "ima spend a week banging on this next month, and then maybe i pick it up agaion next year" is the scheduling form and this means there's a post sometime next month [12:11]
mircea_popescu: but coding is coder-centric not code-centric. leave aside teh faux modesties of githubs and other usgtardations and set things on their proper footing : coding is all about the coder. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: at which point i feel teh urge to also link as it's such a perfect dialectic expose of the differences. code-about-code vs code-about-coder. [12:12]
asciilifeform: it's a good post, but i notice it also does not include any coad [12:13]
mircea_popescu: the first or the 2nd ? [12:13]
asciilifeform: the last link [12:14]
asciilifeform: diana_coman's [12:14]
mircea_popescu: well no, it's moar like a poem. [12:14]
mircea_popescu: the "here's how to add a new activity to foxybot" one does, yes. [12:14]
asciilifeform: i was just thinking about this, this morning, during the 'declare' thread -- wanted to link to a particular item in ffa, and realized that i couldn't [12:15]
diana_coman: ftr for the serpent ada implementation I wrote the testing part: grabbed published test vectors and wrote a snippet to eat them up, call the serpent, check results, complain if any mismatch [12:16]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: what was the result ? [12:16]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform esp with the trilema-style js links youi can link to arbitrary spot [12:16]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, all passed [12:17]
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of various mechanisms that conspire to work together, just, gotta get human element to stop orcing it all up [12:17]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: neato [12:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: syncing a wp turd with coad on disk, in flux, is a bitch tho [12:17]
asciilifeform: and line numbering is destroyed every time thing changes [12:18]
mircea_popescu: can write a tool for it. blog is on mysql [12:18]
mircea_popescu: but yes, if you change version you're in a different situation than here contemplated. [12:18]
asciilifeform: this item calls for something like phf's v-viewer [12:19]
mircea_popescu: let's understand each other. [12:19]
mircea_popescu: coding has four phases. as follows : [12:19]
mircea_popescu: phase 1, when the mind reads. this is the normal state, whether you're trying to understand another's implementration or the republican design or clicking on tit pictures, you're in phase 1. [12:20]
mircea_popescu: phase 2, when you write code. this is the excited state, "fuck this shit ima bang something out". it's like prototyping, not even clear whether something comes of it after all. many excited discussions here fail to progress past 1, "oh, I SEE what you meant!" is often their death knell. [12:20]
mircea_popescu: phase 3, when you are done writing code FOR NOW. this is traditionally the "refactor break". this is also when you publish, explaining other than the code what you did and why, in detail. this included "i tested so and so -- i didn't test so and so" as it includes "i asume so and so". countrary to patently false subjective intution, this is the MOST valuabler of all the phases. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: phase 4, when you are done writing code for A WHILE. it doesn't mean the code's good or bad, it means you personally will be doing other things. in this interval typically people discuss your 3 and stuff happens outside of your hands. [12:22]
mircea_popescu: now, 4 can flow to 1 as it can flow back to 3, and 3 can flow to 1 as it can flow to 4 and so on and so forth. but the important point re these four phases is that they must be explicitly followed, for great personal as well as republic-wide gains of productivity and GDP. [12:23]
* asciilifeform does not disagree with any part of this [12:25]
mircea_popescu: cool. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: now, 3 ends and returns with a blogpost. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: in preference of 1. a paste,forumdiscussion tuple 2. a github/medium/slockit/livejournal/slideshare/oglaf drawing etc 3. any other thing. [12:27]
asciilifeform: if a wwwtronicist ( ben_vulpes ? ) were to come up with a method of dropping ada into wp and getting out an item that doesn't wrap or truncate lines, destroy numberings, and allows linking to individual rows -- i will take off my hat [12:28]
asciilifeform: and use it. [12:28]
asciilifeform: as it is, it's a sisyphian labour [12:29]
mircea_popescu: neither my bash nor diana's c got truncated ? [12:29]
mircea_popescu: but this aside : adding the code as text files, linked from the post is perfecty acceptable. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: like how people did with their FG tests for instance. [12:30]
asciilifeform: the logical unit of code is not 'text file' but individual routine. and sometimes, sub-routine [12:30]
asciilifeform: and they gotta be discussed individually. [12:30]
asciilifeform: and be present on screen with the discussion. [12:30]
mircea_popescu: << dun like the what, spacing ? [12:30]
trinque: asciilifeform: white-space: nowrap (css) on a pre tag oughta do that [12:31]
mircea_popescu: consioder that for i in {1934360vii..1..12viii} do usrix= << you can't fucking beat adnotated codelines jesus god. [12:31]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's soup, no lines, no structure [12:31]
mircea_popescu: it is single line. [12:31]
mircea_popescu: bash command line stuff you know. [12:31]
mircea_popescu: but ok, back to << [12:32]
mircea_popescu: (can trivially set theme to overflow right, ~like her does) [12:32]
asciilifeform: that looks like shit on my display btc [12:32]
asciilifeform: *btw [12:32]
mircea_popescu: scroll down. [12:32]
asciilifeform: i run vertical display [12:33]
mircea_popescu: imo this is the correct usage of html, make the code line as long as it needs. [12:33]
mircea_popescu: ah you don't like scrolling right ? [12:33]
asciilifeform: i'm ok with vert scroll [12:33]
mircea_popescu: so you want a) arbitrary long lines on b) arbitrary narrow display in c) fixed point that nevertheless d) do not truncate ? [12:33]
asciilifeform: afaik my lines are all in 80col [12:33]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if you are, then what she does is correct (minus that overlaid in the way right bar). consider a line like if (!from || from->stackCount < quantity) { OutputMsg(csString("Not enough ingredients for bundling! Bot stopping.")) Error() return false } else { worldHandler::MoveItems(from->containerID, from->slot, toContainer, nextEmptySlot, quantity) [12:34]
mircea_popescu: it's all in one line on her blog. [12:34]
asciilifeform: diana_coman's item is moar or less the right thing, except that it is impossible to link to individual line [12:34]
asciilifeform: ( even with mircea_popescu's script, if the code is changed, the links are mutilated ) [12:35]
mircea_popescu: there's no intention for blogposts to be liquidshit. once published they stay you want to change post another one. [12:35]
asciilifeform: 9000 posts containing almost-same item, is not anyone's idea of readable [12:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think it is the right thing, minus that she should prolly change that Recent Posts divbox to float right with the content rather than be fixed. but this is a one byte fix [12:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is! it is EVERYONES! idea of readable. there's no other fucking readable. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: hence journaling filesystems. [12:36]
asciilifeform: readable is when structure is maximally preserved. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: if you have a problem with confusing phase 2 and phase 3, this blogposting is exactly the pill required to resolve it. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: (and no, even if it may seem comfortable, the confusion is antiproductive) [12:37]
asciilifeform: in particular, related items gotta be near [12:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you just tell people "follow the last". [12:37]
mircea_popescu: this is also how manuals work, like say [12:38]
trinque: asciilifeform: reintroducing structure atop the browser's dom isn't sensible, see: semantic web [12:38]
mircea_popescu: there'\s as you can see 100s of diff variants [12:38]
asciilifeform: trinque: i have nfi if what i asked for, can be done with extant www shitstack [12:38]
trinque: thing'd have to know the code's AS [12:38]
trinque: *AST [12:39]
asciilifeform: trinque: not necessarily, could even store the lines individually, rather than as single text string, and generate the html soup in variants depending on number in url [12:39]
trinque: eh, easier to just preserve revisions, and let people link to a particular one [12:40]
trinque: no guarantee the linker *wants* to link your latest [12:40]
asciilifeform: trinque: but let's say i take a routine from earlier ( e.g. unrolled comba mult ) and the rest -- from last week's [12:40]
asciilifeform: and now would like to represent this transform without destroying structure. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if that's your node level you are well advised to make posts for them rather than for the combo. [12:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: knowing into what granularity thing must break, would require being able to tell the future, neh [12:41]
mircea_popescu: And in this here FFa post we will be taking Comba Mult version x from y date and together with last week's X, Y and Z, and make this pile [12:41]
asciilifeform: this is the naggum-cpp problem all over again -- we do not know, when beginning a project, the ultimate granularity. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neh, because it's your fucking blog, reflecting what you know when you write it not what you come to find in writing it [12:41]
mircea_popescu: which is why it's even interesting to have one as an intellectual activity. [12:42]
* asciilifeform finally dug up link to what asciilifeform sees as state-of-the-art wwwtronic ada viewer : ( they're auto-generated per project ) [12:46]
asciilifeform: it doesn't do the hierarchical or line-numbering thing tho [12:46]
mircea_popescu: and in other log lulz, [12:46]
a111: Logged on 2013-12-03 23:49 ThickAsThieves`: It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally. [12:46]
asciilifeform: but does have linking ( e.g. of definitions of procedures ) [12:46]
mircea_popescu: terrible. [12:47]
mircea_popescu: basically, looks like a tripod site. if i want to link you to the "c" in Read(s,c) what do i do ? [12:47]
asciilifeform: it won't win artistic awards but does about half of the job [12:47]
asciilifeform: nao if something did whole of it.. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: neverfmind artistic. it's as functional as a hammer in a pot of soup. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: how do i fucking link the c ? [12:48]
mircea_popescu: how do i adnotate the s ? [12:48]
mircea_popescu: how do i do anything beyond "here's a doodle, click 80 times in inept trees of documents like it's 1980 all over again and steve jobs hasn't yet come to put into abject slavery all sorts of retarded academiacs who really thought they had something to say" ? [12:49]
asciilifeform: links look like [12:49]
mircea_popescu: no. how do i link the c. [12:49]
asciilifeform: ah you meant the actual c pointed-at, vs the definition [12:49]
mircea_popescu: thing has no way to underline byte error from tester to author and you give it a passing grade ? [12:49]
mircea_popescu: yes. [12:49]
asciilifeform: in the given hack, you can't. hence i said 'does half the job' [12:49]
mircea_popescu: it does none of the job. [12:49]
asciilifeform: it's still a fail. but at least has the notion that routines are entities that oughta be pointable to. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: << hey mp, shouldn['t this 12 read 19 instead ? [12:50]
asciilifeform: does a good bit moar of the job, than pasting a txt ( into wp or otherwise ) and manually grunting to annotate. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: oh thank you mp, i see now what you had been trying to tell me for the past two hours because that's the sort of a mind i am. will fix now! [12:50]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform who is going to read anything but non-auto adnotations. [12:51]
asciilifeform: references to code outside of the current page, oughta be automatic links [12:51]
asciilifeform: this avoids breaking flow in the reader's head. [12:51]
mircea_popescu: wp module to do that is one page long. [12:52]
asciilifeform: it has to parse the ada. [12:52]
asciilifeform: so prolly not 1pg. [12:52]
asciilifeform: but entirely possible to write. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: can't imagine why not, ada still uses fixed calling, you can't call by pointer-to-string or shit can you [12:52]
asciilifeform: it also has to have some notion of ada scope. [12:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol not in ~my~ fascist ada. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: ok so then. [12:52]
asciilifeform: but yes such a thing is writable. [12:53]
asciilifeform: not afaik written tho. [12:53]
mircea_popescu: the important points here are a) scheduling. if we're in the middle of a conversation, low ranking rando won't make any friends by dumping comments re paste. if you had the decency to put it on blog, he can leave you a comment, which you can read when you have the time. major efficiency boon for everyone. [12:53]
asciilifeform: i'd even settle for a very low-tech, orcish thing, that lives as emacslisp and shits out a wp post . [12:53]
mircea_popescu: and b) correct linkage. such as above displayed, arbitrary byte, such as so on. [12:54]
asciilifeform: eventually will have to sit down and write it, if no one else rises to it [12:54]
mircea_popescu: there's also c) where it helps the mind mature into something that'll eventually be able to usefully v, but that's a secret. [12:54]
mircea_popescu: (the a above may seem minor, but both apeloyee and some random noob yest ran into th eexact problem. only one survived it far we can tell.) [12:55]
phf: << the underutilized part of patches visualizer is the tree view, it shows what specific file will actually look like when pressed with a specific patch, e.g. as you can see formatting is not particularly good, but it supports highlighting various languages including Ada. so given a normal v-based workflow (is there one?) can get [12:55]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 17:19 asciilifeform: this item calls for something like phf's v-viewer [12:55]
phf: a visualizer for free [12:55]
asciilifeform: hey phf -- you ever published the v-viewer ? [12:56]
phf: no, it [12:56]
phf: err [12:56]
mircea_popescu: phf i dunno, if there is slow to uptake. [12:56]
asciilifeform: might be a considerable head start for item in this thread [12:57]
asciilifeform: depending on what it's made of [12:57]
phf: basically the tree viewer is half baked and i'm not eating my own dog food here, so i'm relying on teh public to give me feedback ("phf fucking fix this fucking thing") which so far has not been forthcoming [12:58]
asciilifeform: phf: ftr i'm quite satisfied with it [12:58]
asciilifeform: aside from 1 nitpick, the charts overflow my screen [12:58]
mircea_popescu: phf well, is it itself a v-chain ? [12:58]
phf: asciilifeform: no haven't published it, it's a big ball of mud that in the gran lisp machine tradition lives in TMSR package, along with log bot, log visualizer, log database, etc. so if there's interest in any specific parts i can extract them into library and publish, but i've not been planning on publishing the whole thing [12:59]
phf: i think it might be worthwhile to publish for example vpatch parser and presser machinery though [13:00]
phf: because we don't have an equivalent available [13:00]
asciilifeform: phf: consider at the very least sawing off the code parser and entire set of items that pertain to www [13:00]
asciilifeform: into something publishable [13:00]
asciilifeform: but ideally yes whole thing [13:01]
phf: like a kind of vpatch gitlab thing, ok i'll think where and how to slice [13:01]
asciilifeform: aha, that's what it was called. the item which i suspect is 99% of what draws the heathens into 'git' etc [13:01]
asciilifeform: the www viewer thing. [13:01]
mircea_popescu: gah. i feel like in a spider web, every move to improvement resulting in worse shittifyication. [13:03]
phf: mircea_popescu: it is (though there's an interruption in the chain that i need to regrind) that doesn't help me though, because it's the whole thing, rather than parts. [13:03]
mircea_popescu: phf what do you mean "publish", dump another paste ? [13:03]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how's that [13:03]
mircea_popescu: so that THIS also becomes an "unowned random bit of nothing" and we just sink into idocy ervery year a little deeper ? [13:03]
mircea_popescu: "i've not been planning on publishing the whole thing" << why not, are you planning to what, sell it ? [13:04]
mircea_popescu: or did you just make to try and ruin the republic thereby, "here's an engine, it sorta works, im never making it work correctly haha and fuck you" ? [13:04]
phf: mircea_popescu: no, publish meaning put relevant parts into patch visualizer, i otherwise haven't published anything. log/patch visualizer is presented as a service, as far as log is concerned the philosophy has been "write your own" and there's not been much interest in the v part until now [13:04]
mircea_popescu: are you gonna start charging for it then ? [13:05]
phf: i resent the "sorta works" bit, i've been responsive with any feedback related to log and patch visualizer. i've not read todays log so maybe i missed how /patches fits into greater scheme of things [13:08]
mircea_popescu: don't resent it instead, let's examine what this "ima publish" entails. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: there's two major management problems with publishing : one if it's done heathenly, like alf does it, pastes and whatnot the other is subjective, "i published it so it's no longer my thing". [13:09]
mircea_popescu: neither of these are good outcomes. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: now, which of these two didn't you have in mind with cuz i read both in there. [13:11]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 17:59 phf: asciilifeform: no haven't published it, it's a big ball of mud that in the gran lisp machine tradition lives in TMSR package, along with log bot, log visualizer, log database, etc. so if there's interest in any specific parts i can extract them into library and publish, but i've not been planning on publishing the whole thing [13:11]
phf: have i stopped beating my wife yet? [13:11]
mircea_popescu: fine, so i read 'em when they were absent, woe unto me. [13:11]
phf: i'm not sure what publishing the whole thing entails, the only bit that i even considered is something along the lines of what trinque did with his irc bot [13:11]
mircea_popescu: i'm not sure what the benefit of publishing would be. so what, someone else runs it or what. [13:12]
asciilifeform: in this particular case, so that something else can be built from same parts [13:13]
mircea_popescu: why would you build something else instead of using the something that already is ? [13:13]
mircea_popescu: he wrote it, let him run it, and not be discouraged by "not forthcoming" or w/e happened there. [13:14]
asciilifeform: the current item, as i understand it, doesn't interoperate with wp ( or otherwise blogotronic ) [13:14]
mircea_popescu: what exactly did happen ? phf wrote a fine v parser jurov sweated white hairs getting an email system into alf-tip-top shape only for it to not be used as soon as it was got to work... [13:14]
mircea_popescu: there's some neuralgia involved here. what is it ? [13:15]
asciilifeform: hey i still to this day use jurov's system, whenever submitting trb patch. [13:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how would you see it interoperate ? there's links in html, is more needed ? [13:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform when was that last ? [13:15]
asciilifeform: the 'wires' thing [13:15]
asciilifeform: and moar recently the db timings experiment [13:16]
mircea_popescu: and so the problem there was what ? [13:16]
asciilifeform: none, it worked [13:16]
mircea_popescu: so the desired interop with wp would look like what ? [13:16]
phf: well, that's fine by me, i think what happened is some other conversation got crossed over into what i was thinking. alf said you gotta publish, to which i responded with a very non committal "i'll think about it". but there were parts that i was thinking of publishing. specifically vpatch parser and presser both of which don't really on external tools, but accomplish the whole thing in memory. might be useful for further vtronics [13:17]
phf: *don't rely [13:17]
mircea_popescu: phf nothing wrong with that. [13:17]
mircea_popescu: how is vtron currently fed, via email list thing jurov made ? [13:17]
phf: it is still manual process, and we've had a thread about it along the lines of "build it when there's need" [13:18]
mircea_popescu: aha. [13:18]
phf: manual meaning that i see a vpatch in any random place, i post it (obviously it benefits me, more content etc.) [13:19]
asciilifeform: ( jurov's apparatus worx great. but it only introduces messages to the ml. ) [13:19]
mircea_popescu: so then, it's more like a sort of curated "Best of" blogposts eh ? you go around reading people's blogs like the editor of old science mags, going "plox put this in format for editorial" [13:19]
mircea_popescu: this as described could work splendidly well. [13:19]
phf: correct, so far there's not been any editorializing. even dead vpatches live in their own patchset [13:20]
asciilifeform: this is not necessarily a bad thing [13:20]
mircea_popescu: alright so then is this structure deemed seaworthy for a while ? [13:21]
phf: but oftentimes when i post a patch something comes up anyway. like the recent mpi release by asciilifeform is a vpatch, but it lacks a genesis, which breaks all kinds of assumptions (e.g. the tree visualizer wouldn't work at all) [13:21]
asciilifeform: phf: didja ever explain what you mean 'lacks genesis' ? [13:21]
asciilifeform: your copy of mpi-genesis.tar.gz was lost, or wat [13:22]
mircea_popescu: i had thought i saw a genesis too. [13:22]
phf: mpi-genesis.tar.gz is not a vpatch though [13:22]
phf: or is it? i might've missed that part [13:22]
mircea_popescu: um. i dunno, what's wrong with it ? [13:23]
asciilifeform: a yes it is phf [13:23]
asciilifeform: tarball contains 2 files, the genesis, and sig [13:23]
phf: oooh, well, that fixes that then [13:23]
mircea_popescu: maybe his thing didn't eat it for some reason. [13:23]
asciilifeform: and it's a perfectly legit ( manually ground, from mpi, just like trb genesis was from 0.5.3 ) genesis. [13:23]
mircea_popescu: phf do you have roughly the equiv of a "feed paste in here" slit for it ? [13:23]
asciilifeform: phf: if your thing wasn't able to parse it, i'd much like to know why [13:24]
asciilifeform: << mircea_popescu , phf whole shebang , for reference [13:24]
phf: mircea_popescu: i briefly had it, but removed it due to lack of use (it also predates the sbcl rewrite, so it was particularly janky code) [13:24]
mircea_popescu: aha. [13:24]
phf: mircea_popescu: right now it's an ssh copy and (tmsr:refresh-vpatches) call [13:24]
mircea_popescu: well anyway, this'd be a great time to go through the slag, "items that didn't work list" see what other mpis are in there [13:24]
asciilifeform: afaik there's nothing peculiar re the vdiff. lemme know why your parser barfed, phf , when you find out [13:25]
mircea_popescu: ima have diana_coman put the whole eulora crypto in vpatch form even if we're not yet advanced enough with the cleaning of codebase to use v properly. [13:25]
phf: asciilifeform: it didn't, i just didn't realize that there was a proper genesis [13:25]
asciilifeform: aaa [13:25]
mircea_popescu: will take a public comment blogpost pass first, so ideally early next year [13:25]
mircea_popescu: reuses large swaths of alf and peterl work. [13:26]
mircea_popescu: (so in this sense saves them the hassle to v themselves though sigs welcome of course) [13:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my sigs for the mpiism are on the linked pg. [13:27]
mircea_popescu: aha. [13:27]
mircea_popescu: you proposing better idea to branch it off mpi ? [13:27]
asciilifeform: you can produce this mechanically. the unfortunate bit is that it gives same problem as basing trb on original 5.3.1 tarball contents did [13:28]
asciilifeform: ( namely, the volume of deletolade and moveolade liquishit resulting, is multi-megabyte ) [13:28]
mircea_popescu: i meant, rather than make a genesis for eu-crypto, just make a branch of your mpi [13:29]
asciilifeform: prior to realizing that ffa is the troo path, asciilifeform actually planned to entirely re-do the mpi item [13:29]
asciilifeform: because it was , as you can probably see, done barbarically [13:30]
mircea_popescu: but yes, the alternative is to genesis it and then link downstream from ffa. [13:30]
asciilifeform: ( the correct way, ought to have been, to do it in individual tiny snips from gpg-1.4.10, so the pedigree can be authenticated . ) [13:30]
mircea_popescu: i am not interested in claiming any kochian pedigrees. [13:30]
asciilifeform: fair'nuff [13:31]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform certainly did not make any attempt to sanitize the remaining routines or otherwise ascertain correctness, however [13:31]
asciilifeform: so it is still entirely a koch product [13:31]
asciilifeform: but i suppose is now a dried, rather than soft turd. [13:32]
phf: etc. [13:32]
asciilifeform: oh hey. [13:32]
mircea_popescu: anyway. my conclusion is ima do the eu-crypto as a new genesis, because really most of the koch crap in mpi (esp the prng crap) got dirtched [13:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it wasn't even included in mine [13:33]
asciilifeform: ( i even threw out the prime gen ) [13:33]
mircea_popescu: << dat red... [13:34]
asciilifeform: snippetysnip [13:34]
asciilifeform: thing could shrink further, i left koch's buffering system , used by the logger ( also remained ), intact [13:35]
phf: i added readme to mpi patchset also [13:35]
mircea_popescu: maximal lulz [13:35]
asciilifeform: ditto allocator [13:35]
asciilifeform: lol [13:36]
mircea_popescu: this i confess is a fine way to read code. [13:36]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, we can do it yes I guess the question is where to start i.e. no point in starting from koch that I can see starting from asciilifeform 's sane-mpi would be one adds and deletes stuff [13:37]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman so what's your call, rather write as mpi branch or rather stand alone ? [13:37]
mircea_popescu: the significant benefit of branch would be that this'd be the first in-the-field case to demonstrate this interprojects interop thing. [13:37]
diana_coman: it uses the mpi part and quite substantially so works [13:38]
asciilifeform: also helps that my mpi builds a standalone static lib [13:38]
asciilifeform: ( linker then links it ) [13:38]
mircea_popescu: it's basically mostly that + the keccac ada peterl wrote + some new stuff [13:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. kinda iirc the whole idea of the design at the time was for to be able to have this convo today. [13:38]
diana_coman: I get the feeling that v is not really seen as versioning in the sense of these are the steps I took, still mulling a bit on thiw [13:38]
mircea_popescu: i can't see why it wouldn't be. [13:39]
asciilifeform: also gotta nitpick, this is not the first time vtronic crosspollination, [13:39]
asciilifeform: trinque's logotronics were used by later bots [13:39]
asciilifeform: ( iirc by ben_vulpes ) [13:39]
mircea_popescu: link to this ? [13:40]
asciilifeform: hmm [13:40]
mircea_popescu: ? [13:40]
asciilifeform: possibly i am mistaken about this [13:40]
asciilifeform: because i also ended up with and dun see where they meet [13:41]
trinque: yes, is powered by a logbot [13:41]
asciilifeform: but is it published anywhere [13:41]
asciilifeform: and itself vtronic [13:41]
asciilifeform: or did i dream it [13:41]
trinque: that I do not know [13:41]
mircea_popescu: trinque user rather than you know, patch published [13:41]
phf: ircbot-genesis is trinque's , ircbot-multiple-channels-corrected is ben_vulpes's code [13:41]
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with it [13:41]
trinque: nah don't think he had to patch [13:41]
mircea_popescu: phf yes but how do they lkink ? [13:41]
trinque: log viewer just reads same db [13:41]
mircea_popescu: << in other olds. [13:41]
phf: with an arrow [13:41]
trinque: phf: correct [13:42]
phf: i couldn't resist [13:42]
mircea_popescu: ahahaah what! [13:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i made a quite heavy use of phf's viewer, when linking to fg details in log [13:42]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, depending on what we use finally it might be ada-serpent too,unclear [13:42]
diana_coman: and re peterl's keccak implementation trouble is that thoroughly testing it looks atm as much work as writing a new one in the process anyway so whatever version ends up with tests and everything is the one that will make it into v too I would say [13:43]
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as logbot (bv item) has a genesis, it is not a branchoff. yes it imports from a different line. [13:43]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman some bits of code, such as heavily linked against standard hash etc would normally take a zillion reimplementations rereads etc anyways. [13:43]
diana_coman: all the merrier for sure, yes [13:44]
trinque: logbot's my thing. [13:45]
trinque: but anyhow [13:45]
phf: mircea_popescu: there's a bit of confusion there with logbot, because ircbot and logbot were both published by trinque by they are not vtronic connected, they rely on lisp machinery to load each other. multichannel equivalents of both were publshed by ben_vulpes [13:45]
mircea_popescu: sorry ircbot is ben_vulpes ? [13:45]
mircea_popescu: i am well confused yes. [13:45]
mircea_popescu: so trinque you made two diff items that differ how ? one's the irc bot the other's the logger ? [13:45]
trinque: ircbot's a lisp class that sits connected to IRC [13:45]
trinque: logbot's a descendent class that puts log lines in a db [13:45]
mircea_popescu: and they each got their own genesis ? [13:46]
trinque: ben_vulpes patched former for multiple channel support, and latter to use former changes [13:46]
mircea_popescu: phf how do i click on ircbot-multiple-channels to see what's there ? [13:46]
trinque: then wrote a completely separate html viewer for the db logbot extrudes [13:46]
trinque: each got own genesis yep. [13:46]
phf: mircea_popescu: it's actually a broken patch (i.e. it was published broken), i need to move it to deprecated, since *-corrected has been published since [13:47]
mircea_popescu: i have been sitting here for 10 mins trying to figure out wtf this is, not getting any closer [13:47]
phf: :D [13:47]
mircea_popescu: so im reading now in hopes there's explainy. [13:47]
phf: oh and don't open link #3 that crashes everything!1 [13:47]
trinque: [13:48]
mircea_popescu: btw re the namecheap i see here : [13:48]
mircea_popescu: so far working well. [13:48]
trinque: cool, I'll look into that then. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: trinque you know the cursive "trinque" overwrites the top title on the page on my system ? [13:49]
mircea_popescu: trinque having read these two articles i dunno why they got independent genesises. [13:50]
trinque: probably css onanism I committed not working [13:50]
trinque: whysat? [13:50]
mircea_popescu: well for one thing, logbot can't stand up without ircbot. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: first line in install being "install this other thing" is generally an indication item present can't be genesised. maybe not an absolute rule, esp if multiple priors involved. but if just one... [13:51]
asciilifeform: kalash bullet dun work without kalash either, but they are quite separate items [13:52]
phf: (this is actually related to the code reuse thread we had, the extra-v code reuse machinery is fundamentally at odds with vtronic approach, the conclusion in that thread was "do more retyping it's good for you", which i agree with, but i believe asciilifeform was against it) [13:52]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is against all things, gotta be dragged kicking and screaming over all thresholds. [13:52]
mircea_popescu: i got flea in my ointment! [13:52]
asciilifeform: retyping is great [13:52]
asciilifeform: being a human diff, on other hand, is not great. [13:52]
asciilifeform: leave mechanical diffing to the machine, it's why we even have machine. [13:53]
mircea_popescu: unavoidable. see the screams of the lost, [13:53]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 18:43 diana_coman: and re peterl's keccak implementation trouble is that thoroughly testing it looks atm as much work as writing a new one in the process anyway so whatever version ends up with tests and everything is the one that will make it into v too I would say [13:53]
asciilifeform: just how avoidable, or not, is separate q [13:53]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re kalash bullet, my usage list for kalash bullet is "lube generously, insert" not "put into rifle". so it makes sense to genesis. [13:54]
trinque: I can see it, and also that the case where it would be impossible (tangled hierarchy, mutual dependency) is idiocy. [13:54]
trinque: goes right to what I've been saying in the hypertext thread, too [13:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: likewise i can see logbot being used without ircbot -- with, say, shortwavebot [13:54]
mircea_popescu: so is this a regrind then ? [13:54]
trinque: this requires that particular hash antecedent, and not my blog post on the subj [13:54]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that'll be an import if/when happens [13:54]
asciilifeform: point being that they are independent components that could be changed out [13:55]
asciilifeform: rather than logical parts of same proggy [13:55]
mircea_popescu: otherwise the eminently usable trinque bot is what, iirc in hanbot's hands too she was contemplating doing soemthing [13:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your brand of logical here is inadequate. the matter isn't what things could be. [13:55]
mircea_popescu: the matter is what things are. [13:55]
mircea_popescu: when they become something they could have been but weren't, they'll be something else. [13:55]
asciilifeform: they're separate programs. [13:55]
mircea_popescu: everything's SEPARABLE. including your spleen. [13:56]
mircea_popescu: but as they stand right now, they're not separate. [13:56]
asciilifeform: moar like my slippers. [13:56]
trinque: can name the antecedent and still put vpatches in two piles [13:56]
asciilifeform: ( of which i have only 1 pair atm, but they did not ship with my feet ) [13:56]
trinque: "beyond here this crocodile grows robot legs" [13:56]
asciilifeform: gotta prevent the spittoon from being in one strand. otherwise e.g. linux kernel becomes an antecedent to everything [13:57]
mircea_popescu: trinque so you'd rather keep it as two separate items is the idea here ? [13:58]
trinque: nope, agreeing actually [13:58]
trinque: logbot's antecedent *is* ircbot [13:58]
mircea_popescu: ah. alright. without prejudice to the principle, "can't make everything one single hairstrand", there's also the consideration that can't make the whole repuiblican scalp buzz-cut [13:58]
mircea_popescu: and otherwise to cap a very productive morning... are there any neglected issues ? [14:00]
trinque: better stated, I observe that nothing about having a continuous tree prevents naming particular runs of the tree, pointing at, using for different purposes. [14:01]
trinque: I proposed that as a better solution to portability a while back [14:01]
trinque: rather than #ifdef or *features*-ing the hell out of the code [14:01]
mircea_popescu: aha. afaik that's the dogma to this day, "whenever you feel like someone's branch can be your genesis" [14:02]
mircea_popescu: and speaking of bots, lobbes is your idea to genesis lobbesbot ? [14:16]
mircea_popescu: in other sads, /me ended up readiong log linked from trinque's paybot discussion, can confess no longer remembers what was about. [14:37]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-03 18:35 mircea_popescu: trinque i'll dare say it's something else. have you ever seen "a man for all seasons" ? [14:37]
mircea_popescu: oh, fuck! i just remembered! YAY MEMORY! [14:39]
phf: getting old,.. wait not yet! [14:44]
mircea_popescu: :p [14:45]
ben_vulpes: [14:46]
ben_vulpes: in literal zimbabweisms [14:46]
asciilifeform: 'The price of the cryptocurrency in the Southern African nation jumped as high as $13,499' but in which $ ? [14:47]
ben_vulpes: goes on to suggest usd [14:47]
asciilifeform: also gotta wonder what is , e.g., bar of soap in $ there [14:47]
mircea_popescu: o look, nation of africa progresses some more ? [14:48]
ben_vulpes: tanks rolling, fiat crashing [14:48]
phf: cats living with dogs [14:48]
mircea_popescu: the epitome of this being of course teh austro-hungarians cca 1914. [14:48]
mircea_popescu: somewhere on trilema the record of "o noes, people FOR NO REASON increased prices, when we're totally gonna win war", but gotta split so will look for it later. [14:49]
asciilifeform: [14:50]
asciilifeform: 'The authorities declare that the sudden increase in the prices of provisions and vegetables is totally unwarranted. ... It was officially asserted that there was no reason for apprehension with regard to the food supply, and that it was needless for citizens to start the accumulation of stores of provisions. The only effect of such procedure, it was added, would be to still further raise prices.' etc [14:51]
mircea_popescu: right-o! [14:51]
mircea_popescu: bbs [14:51]
shinohai: How long until Bitcoin Plus plus [15:23]
asciilifeform: 'Emergency Difficulty Adjustment' << lel [15:24]
asciilifeform: 'Anyone who held Bitcoin at the time Bitcoin Cash Plus was created became owners of Bitcoin Cash Plus. This means that Bitcoin holders as of block 501407 ' << apparently, contrary to appearances, is NOT a fork of bch [15:25]
asciilifeform: but instead a rerun of the august item [15:30]
phf: "The need for Harmony arose out of me not finding any suitably powerful sound solution in Lisp. I tried doing a pure Lisp solution at first, but was not able to figure out how to make things go fast without sacrificing design. So, in the interest of performance, I first set out to write a C library that does the essential sound computations for me. This library is called libmixed." [15:31]
asciilifeform: 'sacrificing design' [15:33]
trinque: pretty sad item to come through "Planet Lisp" RSS [15:34]
trinque: maybe they meant the other lisp [15:34]
phf: "shinmera" is part of the new school of common lispers who put out reams of code that's basically ffi to c world. nothing wrong with it per se, but from traditional lisp perspective they are prime wreckers [15:36]
asciilifeform: the 'it's ok for your sbcl world to segfault' people [15:37]
asciilifeform: i'll disagree with the 'nothing wrong'. [15:37]
asciilifeform: plain and simple wreckers, with no asterisks. [15:38]
asciilifeform: if i want c, i'll write in c. [15:38]
phf: well, in a sense that it's not a special wrong. they also run systemd and can't wait for wayland etc. etc. [15:39]
ben_vulpes: comes to mind [15:39]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's in there ? openssl ? [15:40]
phf: ben_vulpes: yeah, one of those people [15:40]
phf: asciilifeform: uses cl-async which is an ffi to libuv [15:41]
asciilifeform: aaa [15:41]
ben_vulpes: yeah, that part [15:42]
phf: amusingly none of that "super fast" shit is used anywhere. venerable hunchentoot was used used by weitz to deliver consulting solutions (was also used by me for same purpose back when it was tbnl), these super fast toys are used to host author's blog. [15:43]
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise [15:43]
asciilifeform: but this is why they lichen-attack and eat away at the working stuff [15:43]
asciilifeform: recall the old thread, [15:43]
asciilifeform: !#s flycheck [15:43]
a111: 60 results for "flycheck", [15:43]
asciilifeform: ^ typical example [15:44]
asciilifeform: worthless piece of shit, 'used by no one' until they broke functionality (on crapple) of the venerable and eternal 'flymake' [15:44]
asciilifeform: and then worked into the docs, 'flymake is obsolete' nonsense [15:44]
asciilifeform: same thing is being done to, e.g., gcc [15:45]
phf: emacs's cl-lib vs cl, etc. [15:45]
asciilifeform: 'why are you still using that obsolete...' [15:45]
phf: shit my emacs greets me with iswitchb-mode is obsolete on boot, if i cared enough i'd patch it out, but it's a daily meditation on the general level of fuck [15:46]
phf: (there's obviously no feature equivalent mode for iswitchb, recommended replacements while i'm sure work for some are overengineered monstrosities) [15:47]
ben_vulpes: helm is definitely that [15:48]
asciilifeform: the solution is absolutely never 'hey which flycheck turd should i use nao' [15:54]
asciilifeform: but rather confiscation of the whole shebang from the wreckers. [15:54]
asciilifeform: and in every case to find a name. ~who~ broke $proggy. and what else has he shat into. [15:56]
asciilifeform: find also the collaborationists, who tolerated. [15:57]
asciilifeform: ( rms, sad as it may be to say, is among these. ) [15:57]
phf: still waiting for the kristallnacht [17:14]
asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu , radio havana reported 'tres muertos' in yer earthquake. [17:32]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform you just tell people "follow the last". << Tag, category, etc. [17:37]
lobbes: << My ultimate goal with the thing would be to use trinque's ircbot and try and rebuild lobbesbot off of that. As it stands now, lobbesbot is nothing more than a suite of 'supybot modules' I wrote [17:41]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 19:16 mircea_popescu: and speaking of bots, lobbes is your idea to genesis lobbesbot ? [17:41]
lobbes: i.e. it still uses someone else's code for the 'core' irc functionality. I'd rather that core functionality be ircbot, but of course this'll be a huge time investment migrating everything (and learning lisp). In the hopper, though. [17:41]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> but i suppose is now a dried, rather than soft turd. << So you broom rather than mop [17:46]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in психушка noose, >> 'The U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved a pill Monday that has a digital ingestion tracking system which can tell if medication was ingested by a patient. ... to allow easier treatment of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and some depression' [18:07]
ben_vulpes: take yr soma, citizen [18:08]
shinohai: How does it help the poor schizophrenic ? He's probably freaking out "I'll bet they know I took this pill......" [18:14]
asciilifeform: lol help [18:17]
asciilifeform: !!up PeterL_ [18:28]
deedbot: PeterL_ voiced for 30 minutes. [18:28]
PeterL_: hi, missed the 30 second window to identify as PeterL [18:30]
PeterL_: << for key generation, why not pick a p between say 2^512 and 2^3584 (or whatever values) until you find a prime, then look for a q between 2^4096/p and 2^4097/p ? [18:32]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:33 apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense. [18:32]
asciilifeform: why?! [18:33]
PeterL_: gives a wider range of possible values than just using a set bitness for both p and q [18:34]
PeterL_: and you end up with the right size of value for p*q , right? [18:34]
asciilifeform: how does it give a wider range ?! [18:34]
asciilifeform: not to mention that 2^4097 cannot be represented AT ALL in a 4096bit ffa [18:35]
asciilifeform: not even to divide by a p that guaranteed to not equal 1 [18:35]
PeterL_: 2^4097-1 ? [18:36]
asciilifeform: that yes [18:36]
asciilifeform: i still see no reason to do this [18:36]
asciilifeform: let p be any 4096b prime, let q be any 4096b prime, throw out both if pq exposes a high bit of 0 [18:37]
asciilifeform: it's unbeatable and simple. [18:37]
PeterL_: I thought we were trying to get p and q where p*q is 4096b? [18:38]
asciilifeform: and my algo above guarantees it. [18:38]
asciilifeform: it simply won't terminate until pq is 4096b. [18:38]
PeterL_: I guess I was just trying to skip a few iterations of chucking out bad values? [18:39]
asciilifeform: there is no such thing as 'bad value' for individual p or q [18:39]
PeterL_: since once you get p, you should know the size q needs to be [18:39]
asciilifeform: neither can be greater than 2048b in size [18:41]
PeterL_: why not? [18:41]
asciilifeform: because ffa. [18:41]
PeterL_: I dun follow? [18:41]
asciilifeform: i deliberately removed support for non-powersof2 bitnesses. [18:41]
asciilifeform: to simplify karatsuba and other algos. [18:41]
asciilifeform: this was discussed here and if PeterL_ followed the logs, he would have noticed. [18:42]
PeterL_: but why do you limit to 2048 and not 4096? [18:42]
asciilifeform: either is a legal bitness [18:42]
asciilifeform: e.g. 3584 however is not [18:42]
asciilifeform: in a 4096b rsa run, p and q are 2048b primes [18:42]
PeterL_: why do they have to be 2048b? [18:43]
asciilifeform: because it's 4096b rsa. [18:43]
asciilifeform: and the difficulty of breaking rsa via known methods is proportional to the size of the smallest prime. you oughta know that. [18:43]
asciilifeform: this is 1st grade material. [18:44]
PeterL_: but isn't it easier to break knowing that they must be 2048b than if they could be anywhere within a wider range? [18:44]
asciilifeform: nope. [18:45]
PeterL_: hmm, I must have missed that day in 1st grade [18:46]
PeterL: << I am glad you find it useful [18:50]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 11:33 diana_coman: I've been playing around with the keccak implementation from PeterL and it seems overall all right [18:50]
asciilifeform: PeterL: consider, even plain brute force benefits from permitting one of the primes to have less than half of the total bitness of the product [18:52]
PeterL: but if pure brute forcing, why not start at sqrt(N) and work down? [18:53]
asciilifeform: PeterL: work out the chance, in your scheme, of the smaller prime being below 2048b in length. [18:58]
asciilifeform: it isn't small. [18:58]
asciilifeform: and much higher than the chance of any considerable number of leading 0s in p or q generated via proper scheme. [18:58]
asciilifeform: at any rate this is a quite pointless imho discussion, we will NOT be reintroducing normalized integer braindamage. [18:59]
asciilifeform: if you want to do crypto you do it with power-of-2-wide registers. [18:59]
asciilifeform: and the cost of the costliest operation is a cube of the bitness. [19:00]
PeterL: anyway, I have to go take care of the kids, as always I keep an eye on the logs. [19:06]
asciilifeform: PeterL: i am giving benefit of doubt, i'd rather think that you missed the powers-of-2-forever thread, rather than having read it and understood nothing [19:08]
asciilifeform: << err, 2048. [19:16]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 23:37 asciilifeform: let p be any 4096b prime, let q be any 4096b prime, throw out both if pq exposes a high bit of 0 [19:16]
mircea_popescu: << who's gonna bother to fork worthless item, ya know. [21:59]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 20:30 asciilifeform: but instead a rerun of the august item [21:59]
mircea_popescu: << expensive tho, who the hell's gonna man all the castles. [22:04]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 20:54 asciilifeform: but rather confiscation of the whole shebang from the wreckers. [22:04]
mircea_popescu: need moar ppls. [22:04]
mircea_popescu: << yeah, something like that. [22:04]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 22:32 asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu , radio havana reported 'tres muertos' in yer earthquake. [22:04]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: simply arresting the rot dun take much: i expect 'cuntoo' repo box will suffice. once isp winter is over... [22:05]
mircea_popescu: << thjat works, can even make the archive item a vpatch when it's done for instance. [22:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 22:41 lobbes: i.e. it still uses someone else's code for the 'core' irc functionality. I'd rather that core functionality be ircbot, but of course this'll be a huge time investment migrating everything (and learning lisp). In the hopper, though. [22:05]
mircea_popescu: << kek why so snippy [22:07]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 23:44 asciilifeform: this is 1st grade material. [22:07]
mircea_popescu: << the first factor found will necessarily be the smallest of p, q. therefore if your q is 17 and p some 4094 bit prime, you're fucked as the N will fall over within microseconds. [22:08]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 23:46 PeterL_: hmm, I must have missed that day in 1st grade [22:08]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a pretty good olympiad problem, actually, to show why PeterL's scheme is still a bad idea even though '17' scenario is ruled out given as he capped the lower bitness at 512 [22:19]
mircea_popescu: in other "obscure attempt at fares as well as could be expected", (evidently, 100% mode, "here's our next pick" bs) [22:19]
a111: Logged on 2017-07-18 03:17 mircea_popescu: the notion that bitcoin can somehow by stolen by name is so ridoinculous as to betray its ustardian origins. bitcoin is not a name. [22:19]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something moart than is needed ? [22:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:36 mircea_popescu: however you "cut" the problem out, the surface of the cut becomes the problem [22:20]
asciilifeform: i meant rigorous proof that the smallestprime will be on avg smaller in his scenario than in traditional [22:21]
asciilifeform: 'It is now up to the next billion people to start to use Bitcoin Cash.' << lol!! [22:28]
asciilifeform: sooo they are also fraudulently pushing bch' ( or what it was) as a fork of bch ? [22:30]
asciilifeform: ( reading the linked item, it would be impossible to infer that it is ~not~ one ) [22:30]
BingoBoingo: !!up kyliee [23:21]
deedbot: kyliee voiced for 30 minutes. [23:21]
BingoBoingo: Hello kyliee [23:21]
kyliee: Hi [23:21]
BingoBoingo: What brings you out to these here boondocks? [23:22]
kyliee: Bitcoin... I need to understand how to trade without using one of the government run platforms [23:23]
kyliee: GODDAMMIT [23:39]
BingoBoingo: !~later tell kyliee Pls to learn patience [23:54]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded. [23:54]
Category: Logs
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