Forum logs for 15 Nov 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

Adlai	you could roughly equate the queen of an ant colony to a human brain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_formation#Clinical_significance ?	[00:00]
nubbins`	but i feel like the upper bound is significantly higher than people realize	[00:00]
assbot	Reticular formation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[00:00]
mircea_popescu	Adlai maybe, but i'm very wary of recent brainscience.	[00:00]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: none of the claims, for whatever measure of 'complexity', amount to anything more than farts in the wind.	[00:00]
Adlai	which is why I linked to clinical examples, rather than speculation	[00:00]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: see the discussion last year of the 'entropy' of the digits of 'pi'.	[00:00]
asciilifeform	they max out every known measure	[00:00]
asciilifeform	(save for one.)	[00:01]
Adlai	would the same happen to an ant colony if you kidnapped the queen?	[00:01]
asciilifeform	and at the same time, the digits can be spat out by a very simple mechanism.	[00:01]
nubbins`	asciilifeform i fell into a black hole halfway through my cs/math joint major on points like these	[00:01]
asciilifeform	(see bailey borwein plouffe.)	[00:01]
mircea_popescu	Adlai generally most ant colonies have emergency backups always ready	[00:01]
mircea_popescu	if queen dies newborn queen emerges almost immediately.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	some collapse tho, for various reasons	[00:02]
asciilifeform	this is no more surprising than skin on your finger regrowing.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	right	[00:02]
Adlai	in humans neurons, queen damage is recoverable, with assistance from other colonies	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	well not really, neurons don't regrow like ants do.	[00:02]
asciilifeform	(there is some dispute re: whether and under what circumstances neurons regrow.)	[00:03]
Adlai	they could with external support. maybe not today, but it's easily possible within a few hundred years.	[00:03]
mircea_popescu	as opposed to moderately possible within a few thousand years ?	[00:03]
asciilifeform	lol!	[00:03]
mircea_popescu	how'dja compute those parameters ?	[00:03]
nubbins`	heh.	[00:04]
Adlai	well my initial random was "certain within decades", but then I toned it down a few orders of fartitude	[00:04]
mircea_popescu	lol	[00:04]
nubbins`	i was going to guess you used differential equations	[00:04]
Adlai	the exact timescale doesn't matter, it'll happen	[00:04]
mircea_popescu	you can feel it in your urine ?	[00:05]
Adlai	you don't think this is possible?	[00:05]
undata	What if certain things are just out of reach? Maybe the complete model is simple, but the approximations leading to it are larger than brains can handle?	[00:06]
nubbins`	see symbolic integration vs numerical methods	[00:06]
mircea_popescu	Adlai i have no idea, but i suspect your conviction is more informed by a faint whiff of a personal desire to survive/fear of death than anything else.	[00:06]
nubbins`	undata the complete model has maybe 2 rules tops	[00:07]
Adlai	of course. i'd say it's less a fear and more an underlying aspiration	[00:07]
undata	nubbins`: who knows; not I	[00:07]
nubbins`	nor anyone	[00:07]
mircea_popescu	Adlai why would you want to live forever already.	[00:08]
Adlai	to see what happens	[00:08]
mircea_popescu	haven't had enough of idiots yet ?	[00:08]
nubbins`	i suppose if you want to get cheeky it's (1) wiggle (2) if bumped, wiggle less	[00:08]
mircea_popescu	yeah, what is going to happen. i wonder.	[00:08]
nubbins`	we're just starting from a really really complex initial state ;D	[00:08]
asciilifeform	'live long enough to see the buggers off.'	[00:08]
asciilifeform	modest aspiration.	[00:08]
mircea_popescu	lol	[00:09]
*	assbot gives voice to joecool	[00:09]
Adlai	:-o "millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" by the guy who died on a Sunday afternoon	[00:09]
asciilifeform	arse longa, cocka shorta.	[00:10]
asciilifeform	or what did mircea_popescu say.	[00:10]
undata	most of the things in my head, somebody/something else put there	[00:10]
Adlai	although I doubt LA was rainy in june	[00:10]
undata	not much lost when I die	[00:10]
undata	and I question the "most"	[00:10]
Adlai	http://youtu.be/NoAzpa1x7jU	[00:10]
assbot	Blade Runner - Final scene, "Tears in Rain" Soliloquy (HD) - YouTube	[00:10]
asciilifeform	'i have seen the ships on fire at the edge of orion...'	[00:11]
asciilifeform	that one/	[00:11]
asciilifeform	.	[00:11]
mircea_popescu	undata i recall reading this east-side of cold war story (rdg it was i think ?), about the drink that bestowed immortality, and how obnoxious old people were, 700+ yo clinging on to life to "see who wins whatever games"	[00:11]
asciilifeform	probably one of the best known scenes in all of film.	[00:11]
mircea_popescu	in fairness, the commies were very well familiar with the problem of just-wont-fucking-die-already dinosaurs	[00:11]
mircea_popescu	something the us is getting more and more acquainted with.	[00:11]
asciilifeform	ahahaha lol yes	[00:12]
*	nubbins` ponders turmite / langton's ant steady states as analogies for steady states in human behaviour	[00:12]
asciilifeform	;;google gerontocracy	[00:12]
gribble	Gerontocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Gerontocracy - Merriam-Webster Online: ; Gerontocracy \| Define Gerontocracy at Dictionary.com:	[00:12]
asciilifeform	wow no specifically soviet refs	[00:12]
Adlai	!s bill maher	[00:12]
assbot	6 results for 'bill maher' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bill+maher	[00:12]
nubbins`	somewhere out there, a guy named langton is eating chips on the couch and watching seinfeld. again.	[00:12]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it's the normally sclerotic reaction of society to a dissolution of values	[00:12]
mircea_popescu	the east destroyed its value system "for socialism"	[00:12]
mircea_popescu	the west did too, for... well... "fairness" i guess, same bs.	[00:12]
mircea_popescu	only way to select people now is age, which explains disasters like nanci pelosi	[00:13]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919815 << what'll happen once old people live long enough to form their own tribes/societies? would this be some weird form of speciation?	[00:13]
assbot	Logged on 13-11-2014 14:50:21; xanthyos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kWaKhrpa28	[00:13]
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undata	mircea_popescu: seems the hive would lose the ability to adapt without some mental youth elixir being invented alongside	[00:14]
mircea_popescu	but see... because of the "nonviolent principle" or w/e, it doesnt HAVE TO adapt anymore.	[00:15]
asciilifeform	Adlai: for that to work, different definition of 'old' would have to apply.	[00:15]
undata	mircea_popescu: and the lamb laid down with the lion	[00:15]
*	undata does big arms	[00:15]
asciilifeform	Adlai: you don't really see, e.g., 40 y.o. 'speciating' into own socity from 30 y.o	[00:15]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you don't get out much, do you ?	[00:15]
asciilifeform	nope.	[00:15]
nubbins`	heh	[00:15]
mircea_popescu	40yo male, with a buncha chicks. 20 yo male, in a group of derps.	[00:15]
mircea_popescu	quite fucking speciously speciated.	[00:16]
asciilifeform	opposite arrangement here	[00:16]
mircea_popescu	hence speciously :D	[00:16]
Adlai	and i'm wondering what will happen once we have a MUCH wider age range of active individuals	[00:16]
asciilifeform	http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/09/le-vieillard-gros.html << obligatory mr. o on old age	[00:16]
assbot	ClubOrlov: Le Vieillard Gros	[00:16]
Adlai	which will certainly happen within decades!	[00:16]
mircea_popescu	no it wont	[00:16]
mircea_popescu	part of the reason there's going to be blood is that there's too many old people.	[00:17]
asciilifeform	flying on cold-fusion (or fart) powered rocket packs, yes.	[00:17]
Adlai	well, old people who don't keep supporting themselves enough to stay alive without support from other tribes... will die of old age	[00:17]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, my favourite discussion of the topic is balzac. eugenie grandet.	[00:17]
mircea_popescu	Adlai you don't understand. there's nothing more readily cohesive of a group than hatred for old people.	[00:17]
mircea_popescu	look into london riots.	[00:18]
asciilifeform	!s harpagon	[00:18]
assbot	4 results for 'harpagon' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=harpagon	[00:18]
Adlai	so they'll hire xenotribal mercenaries	[00:18]
mircea_popescu	lmao	[00:18]
mircea_popescu	are you like, new under the sun ?	[00:18]
Adlai	such as... police forces, armies, etc	[00:19]
mircea_popescu	suppose kim kardashian goes around drunk in the bad part of detroit, gets raped by a gang of thugs	[00:19]
mircea_popescu	hires a different gang of thugs to... kill the first gang ?	[00:19]
mircea_popescu	sure. they also fuck her, then they go have a drink with the first gang, exchange impressions.	[00:19]
asciilifeform	afaik traditional scheme is for the armies to fight in perpetual deadlock, as if they were the ruminants with horns set at such an angle as to be of no use	[00:20]
Adlai	basically, that's what happens when tribes/nation[/-]states attack eachother	[00:20]
asciilifeform	while herr harpagon watches and laughs	[00:20]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that scheme only works when there's few old guys.	[00:20]
mircea_popescu	well, actually, i suspect old gals is more of a burden, but who knows.	[00:21]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there are still 'few old guys.' they see the remaining many as impostors, but are not particularly afraid of them. they have pills for this ('obamacare' etc.)	[00:21]
mircea_popescu	i guess.	[00:21]
mircea_popescu	but the problem is the swarming instinct.	[00:21]
asciilifeform	pelosi is not in any sense afraid of random mrs. smith	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	you know, peacible grasshoppers suddenly change mode because they got touched on the toes by others too many times.	[00:22]
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mircea_popescu	no, but her ability to continue in relevance is a strict function of how many mrs smith johnny perceives a day.	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	because if he perceives too many, he's going to go "fuck you, and your laws, and your union"	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	something like the ferguson stuff.	[00:22]
asciilifeform	quite a few folks say 'ferguson' when discussion hypothetical phase transition, but i must disagree.	[00:23]
asciilifeform	lizard-hitler loves it when his zoo animals fight ineffectually among themselves	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	fine, whatever unquenchable permariots. the paris stuff.	[00:23]
asciilifeform	burn down own tenements, etc.	[00:23]
asciilifeform	same deal there	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	now look. im not saying the small scale thing is effectual.	[00:24]
asciilifeform	usa had a much closer shave before	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	what i am saying is that the mechanism clearly exists.	[00:24]
asciilifeform	if you visit wash.,d.c. you can see that in the '70s a good chunk of the place got 'detroit'ed.	[00:24]
asciilifeform	but not the organs of usg, nor of finance.	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	this is exactly how capitals work	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	same happened to bucharest, also in 70s	[00:25]
asciilifeform	mechanism exists, but i have no idea what it looks like in application to modern usa.	[00:25]
mircea_popescu	i suspect also moscow	[00:25]
asciilifeform	and neither does anyone else	[00:25]
mircea_popescu	well me either, what am i. mafalda.	[00:25]
asciilifeform	l0l	[00:25]
asciilifeform	vanga!	[00:25]
asciilifeform	(ru equivalent)	[00:25]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[00:26]
asciilifeform	(for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.)	[00:27]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92800 @ 0.00042935 = 39.8437 BTC [+]	[00:29]
mircea_popescu	so basically we could say it's "the understanding" of magnetism ?	[00:30]
asciilifeform	at least partly.	[00:30]
asciilifeform	'the map is not the territory, but you can't fold up the territory and fit it in your glove compartment.'	[00:30]
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cazalla	wru scoopbot, http://qntra.net/2014/11/nasaa-top-investor-threats/	[00:30]
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assbot	NASAA: Top Investor Threats \| Qntra.net	[00:31]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3381 @ 0.00042935 = 1.4516 BTC [+]	[00:31]
asciilifeform	oh noez, competing chumpatrons, must d3str0y	[00:31]
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mircea_popescu	da fuck is nasaa	[00:32]
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mircea_popescu	all these important things i don't know about!	[00:33]
asciilifeform	http://worth1000.s3.amazonaws.com/submissions/183500/183879_8c00_625x1000.jpg	[00:33]
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mircea_popescu	lol	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	can this be like, our god ?	[00:33]
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asciilifeform	aha.	[00:33]
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mircea_popescu	cool.	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	lizard hitler is nowwith bitcoin jesus.	[00:34]
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TheNewDeal	lizard hitler is dating bitcoin jesus?	[00:45]
TheNewDeal	!s bitcoin jesus	[00:45]
assbot	64 results for 'bitcoin jesus' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitcoin+jesus	[00:45]
cazalla	ignoring the paedos, i thought this was a good model for a porn site http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/11/09/as-drug-markets-are-seized-pedophiles-launch-a-crowdfunding-site/	[00:46]
assbot	While Markets Get Seized: Pedophiles Launch a Crowdfunding Site - Deep Dot Web	[00:46]
cazalla	what are the odds such a site is a honey pot?	[00:48]
asciilifeform	!s the man who was thursday	[00:48]
assbot	4 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday	[00:48]
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mircea_popescu	cazalla about 11 in 5.	[00:49]
asciilifeform	cazalla: the whole thing exists only as a honeypot, even when it doesn't.	[00:49]
asciilifeform	what is a honeypot if not each and every criminal undertaking that steps outside of its 'wot' ?	[00:49]
asciilifeform	and opens self to strangers	[00:50]
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asciilifeform	(for whatever value of 'criminal', in whatever kingdom or time)	[00:50]
asciilifeform	at any rate, the incentive for the buggers to fabricate 'terrorist atrocities' is so overwhelming, that any such item is guilty until proven innocent of being just such a crock of shit.	[00:51]
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asciilifeform	not that i personally give a damn whether a particular honeypot is artificial or 'wild.'	[00:52]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00043338 = 4.9839 BTC [+]	[00:57]
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mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/i-dont-know-what-the-hell-i-said-i-gave-her-an-ultimatum-and-theres-nothing-i-can-do-its-a-machine-the-little-light-is-blinking-right-now-come-and-listen-to-the-idiot-hey-everybody-the-i/	[01:05]
assbot	I don’t know what the hell I said. I gave her an ultimatum and there’s nothing I can do. It’s a machine. The little light is blinking right now: ‘Come and listen to the idiot. Hey everybody, the idiot’s on!’ pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[01:05]
asciilifeform	lol!	[01:06]
mircea_popescu	hehe	[01:06]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu lets nothing go to waste.	[01:06]
mircea_popescu	i am an ant!	[01:06]
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cazalla	Eliza needs a footnote?	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	well for prosteriority.	[01:09]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90950 @ 0.00042509 = 38.6619 BTC [-] {3}	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	where prost means stupid, at least in romanian.	[01:10]
asciilifeform	3rd conference << 2nd?	[01:12]
asciilifeform	(endnote vi)	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	$conference	[01:12]
empyex	mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 5 months and 3 days. Estimated cost today: 3.30951486 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	right you are	[01:12]
asciilifeform	unless there was a lizards-only 0th conference...	[01:13]
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asciilifeform	herr dooglus must be on an ip-over-dead-goat acoustic-coupler modem...	[01:14]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: actually weizenbaum's story is more interesting than the 'prosteriority' lets on.	[01:15]
asciilifeform	many people figured it out very quickly.	[01:15]
asciilifeform	but his secretary (young woman) - notably - did not	[01:15]
asciilifeform	and insisted that the thing was 'alive' and 'understood her'	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	yup. it works as a trap for particular people	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	rather than a universal problem	[01:16]
asciilifeform	she demanded to be 'let alone with it'	[01:16]
asciilifeform	and that was when we learned that there are those among us who... fail turing test.	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	nah, the two are not the same.	[01:16]
asciilifeform	well, inverse turing test.	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	understand something : if female brain were not hackable, if female vulva had no opening, there'd be no species.	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	she hacks herself. of course she does. so what of it ?	[01:17]
asciilifeform	nitpick.	[01:17]
Adlai	!s 4781	[01:17]
assbot	1 results for '4781' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	jurov quite.	[01:17]
Adlai	anybody read this? ^^	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform im just saying, let's not confuse those who pass the fertility test with those who fail the turing test.	[01:17]
asciilifeform	i not infrequently read esr	[01:17]
Adlai	(the book, not the review itself)	[01:17]
asciilifeform	(esr suffers from some of the same problems as taleb)	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	Adlai i linked it neh ?	[01:18]
Adlai	http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781 (because assbot apparently isn't self-aware yet)	[01:18]
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assbot	1 results for '4781' - #bitcoin-assets search	[01:18]
Adlai	er, shit. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#921595	[01:19]
assbot	Logged on 14-11-2014 10:10:46; mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too.	[01:19]
asciilifeform	the book? can't say that i have	[01:19]
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Adlai	or it could specialcase finding only a single result	[01:19]
asciilifeform	but from the article, it sounds deeply reminiscent of a similar turd, 'cyberselfish'	[01:19]
asciilifeform	( http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1996/07/cyberselfish << briefly described here.)	[01:20]
assbot	Cyberselfish \| Mother Jones	[01:20]
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mircea_popescu	Our biggest concern is the welfare of children who appear on this site. {Site name redacted} has a ZERO tolerance policy for rape or	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	what the fuck reporting is this.	[01:29]
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mircea_popescu	!up romkor_	[01:33]
-assbot-	You voiced romkor_ for 30 minutes.	[01:33]
*	assbot gives voice to romkor_	[01:33]
mircea_popescu	Adlai ah, the book. no, never have.	[01:33]
*	assbot gives voice to Adlai	[01:34]
Adlai	has anybody automated assbot auth?	[01:34]
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mircea_popescu	you mean gribble ?	[01:36]
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mircea_popescu	Adlai http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication#Helper_scripts like that ?	[01:37]
assbot	GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki	[01:37]
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Adlai	amazingly nobody seems to use btc address auth. wtf?	[01:39]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[01:39]
Adlai	srsly bro	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	what's so amazing about this ?	[01:41]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	badly thought out, pointless functionality doesn't get much use among the sane.	[01:42]
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Adlai	it's not any better than gpg auth, but i don't see why it's any worse either	[01:43]
Adlai	although i guess it's less convenient to keep using in the face of existing automation of gpg auth	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	vulpes explains this if memory serves.	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/20_a-summary-of-changes-to-bitcoin-since-0321.html#fn.24 there.	[01:44]
assbot	A summary of changes to Bitcoin since 0.3.21	[01:44]
Adlai	thx, not much luck slogging through http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=from%3Aben_vulpes+auth*	[01:45]
assbot	16 results for 'from:ben_vulpes auth*' - #bitcoin-assets search	[01:45]
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asciilifeform	whether this particular microscope is fit for use as a hammer, depends on two very separate questions - what you think of ecdsa, and what you think of bitcoind	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not even getting into these technical discussion : getting people to use their credit cards as identification paperwork is a bad idea.	[01:47]
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asciilifeform	one could in principle maintain a bitcoin 'keypair' for the purpose of abusing it for public key signatures	[01:48]
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asciilifeform	but why?	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	the only proper way to use bitcoin addresses as identification correctly is to run a never-connected node that has no balance.	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	this is so braindamaged as to leave one breathless.	[01:48]
asciilifeform	well yes.	[01:48]
asciilifeform	but still why.	[01:48]
Adlai	frankly, my crypto knowledge is lacking to have anything meaningful to say on this issue, beyond "gpg keys can have an order of magnitude more entropy than bitcoin pubkey hashes"	[01:49]
asciilifeform	get a hammer, leave microscope alone.	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform are you asking me why or the abuser why ?	[01:49]
asciilifeform	the abuser.	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	right.	[01:49]
Adlai	my reason/excuse has mainly been convenience, i had the btc auth set up years ago before i'd ever used gpg	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	convenience is the enemy, of course.	[01:50]
mircea_popescu	anwyay : you'll also notice we quite strictly use 4kb rsa sigs in our gpg	[01:50]
mircea_popescu	as pointedly opposed to using the ecdsa in bitcoin	[01:50]
mircea_popescu	now imagine what happens if either is breached somehow.	[01:50]
asciilifeform	'Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing; 'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands; But he that filches from me my good name...'	[01:50]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[01:51]
Adlai	a stricter form of identity verification would require breaching both, rather than either, or only one	[01:51]
mircea_popescu	double the hassle of logging. tide's not really that high yet.	[01:51]
Adlai	;;ident	[01:52]
gribble	Nick 'Adlai', with hostmask 'Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai', is identified as user 'Adlai', with GPG key id 4D88596A7CDA03F9, key fingerprint FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9, and bitcoin address 13dkw1PtojBW74FN7ERbHqoEvgsTmtARuj	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	;;gettrust Adlai	[01:52]
gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user Adlai: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=Adlai \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Adlai \| Rated since: Sat Oct 11 10:15:58 2014	[01:52]
Adlai	how charming, i'm only btc authed, but gribble presents it as though i'm gpg authed too	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	Adlai it just says "you're authed" and lists how that could be	[01:52]
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Adlai	you may understand that, but it's not evident purely from response to ;;dient	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	anyway, seems you first logged last month, what do you mean "btc auth set up for years" ?	[01:53]
thestringpuller	"The cryptography is the strongest point. Your enemies will attack the weakest point, which is you."	[01:53]
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mircea_popescu	well no meaningful content is directly obvious from the form of expression. you gotta know what the words sya.	[01:53]
Adlai	i've had btc auth set up for around two years	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	like how ?	[01:53]
Adlai	i only set up gpg auth a few weeks ago	[01:53]
Adlai	compare: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=adlai and http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xFCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9	[01:55]
assbot	#bitcoin-otc gpg key data	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	"Lest this all seem merely amusing, meditate on the fate of those who have tampered with words before. The behaviorists ruined words like "behavior", "response", and especially, "learning". They now pl-ay happily in a dream world, internally consistent but lost to science."	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	oh boy, quite.	[01:55]
Adlai	where are you going with that quote?	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	2012-10-06 04:55:28 aha	[01:56]
Adlai	indeed :)	[01:56]
mircea_popescu	Adlai unrelated to our convo.	[01:56]
Adlai	oook	[01:56]
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Adlai	perhaps better data, from your very own: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3B241BB6119757556F33339EFC6D3849C1ED1485C66C9D0D0A9506199D7402D0	[01:58]
assbot	Welcome \| Phuctor	[01:58]
Adlai	oh, that submission date is today. nvm.	[01:58]
asciilifeform	lol wasn't meant to be used as an authoritative keyserver.	[01:58]
asciilifeform	(only updates when someone craps a key in)	[01:59]
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Adlai	hah, i'd forgotten this already: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/29F24169A59A5BE1ACC8FCE0E852F4AE1C2A83C2F6B6902D6FA363BFC983ACBA	[02:02]
assbot	Welcome \| Phuctor	[02:02]
*	asciilifeform l0lz that folks are using 'phuctor' as a key viewer	[02:02]
Adlai	don't worry, i'm just phucting with you	[02:03]
asciilifeform	i guess there's something pleasurable in seeing the moduli	[02:03]
asciilifeform	i know i like to.	[02:03]
Adlai	https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=Adlai << /nick accidentally got squatted by ashley while i was in the army. never heard of waksman though.	[02:04]
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assbot	Search results for 'adlai'	[02:04]
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Adlai	https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=Adlai << so, while the current contributors' reasons for not using git[hub] are understandable, i'll leave this up and perhaps update it at my leisure, in case it'll be useful to anybody inhabiting a separate region on the paranoia/lazyness continuum	[02:08]
assbot	Search results for 'adlai'	[02:08]
Adlai	pastefail: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919932	[02:08]
assbot	Logged on 13-11-2014 16:38:23; asciilifeform: Adlai: darcs << as a military man, perhaps you are familiar with systems that could be automated easily, but aren't? e.g., ru nuke sub controls	[02:08]
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cazalla	http://qntra.net/2014/11/cfpbs-proposed-rules-governing-prepaid-cards-include-virtual-currency/	[02:09]
asciilifeform	Adlai: on the contrary, several people (even you?) are using 'git'	[02:09]
assbot	CFPB's Proposed Rules Governing Prepaid Cards Include "Virtual Currency" \| Qntra.net	[02:09]
asciilifeform	it even, iirc, comes with a gpg signing gizmo	[02:09]
Adlai	people other than me have used it?	[02:09]
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asciilifeform	but it is only a tool that some people prefer to use. a 'git' or other similar gizmo will not be the authoritative representation of bitcoind.	[02:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00042506 = 12.9643 BTC [-]	[02:10]
asciilifeform	for reasons described earlier.	[02:10]
Adlai	(specifically for this repo)	[02:10]
asciilifeform	aha i think ben_vulpes has one of his own	[02:10]
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Adlai	i only set up the repo. doing so required going through all the manual steps (and i did verify gpg signatures with identities fetched from public keyservers)	[02:10]
asciilifeform	try to understand why a git repo cannot be the canonical representation.	[02:10]
Adlai	of course i understand, although i still think darcs could actually work for this	[02:11]
asciilifeform	(the canonical representation can be taken and stuffed into a git repo, or darcs, or cvs, whatever, for your personal pleasure)	[02:11]
Adlai	(after reading more about its workings)	[02:11]
asciilifeform	but when it's time to cough your changes back up and have them up for public study, they have to be physically minimal	[02:11]
Adlai	let's put it this way: the act of fetching signed patches with darcs conducts exactly the manual verification workflow which you currently do	[02:12]
asciilifeform	and per the current state of the art, that means unix diff outputs.	[02:12]
undata	Adlai: this was my argument.	[02:12]
Adlai	!s undata darcs	[02:12]
assbot	0 results for 'undata darcs' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=undata+darcs	[02:12]
undata	git and others are a damned hash database	[02:12]
Adlai	... no it wasn't	[02:12]
Adlai	yes, and they're not looking for a hash database	[02:12]
undata	Adlai: it turns out there are a few of those	[02:12]
asciilifeform	Adlai: in what way is 'darcs' output more useful than unix patch?	[02:12]
Adlai	they're looking for verified patch lists	[02:12]
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asciilifeform	Adlai: does it, for example, avoid being fooled by line number counts?	[02:12]
Adlai	asciilifeform: you can add metadata such as patch dependency which is not evident just from the patch's raw contents	[02:12]
undata	Adlai: as you were then; git solves precisely this problem or would not work.	[02:13]
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Adlai	git commits to a specific state of code. what if it becomes evident that a specific developer was working to introduce bugs, and you only want to excise his patches? that has unbounded painfulness in git, but bounded painfulness in darcs.	[02:13]
asciilifeform	incidentally, the problem of 'patcher than is never fooled by deletions and line count shifts' is not solvable in the general case.	[02:14]
Adlai	same bounds hold, or don't, for "his patches, and all those dependent upon them"	[02:14]
asciilifeform	(if you have a solution, geneticists would love to hear about it. 'sequence alignment' is ruinously expensive, in computational terms.)	[02:14]
Adlai	which is why darcs lets you add manual metadata for dependency constraints	[02:14]
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Adlai	a "conflict" would require a separate patch, which should be signed by the resolver	[02:15]
asciilifeform	Adlai: we have the metadata. the integer in the patch fileames.	[02:15]
asciilifeform	*filename	[02:15]
asciilifeform	try to understand the nature of this 'nuke sub' and the pitfalls of tying one's fortune to 'darcs' or a similarly 'intelligent' instrument.	[02:16]
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undata	asciilifeform: the process of producing a git commit is entirely dumb	[02:17]
Adlai	darcs isn't that intelligent. the input data it gets from a repository is a partially ordered list of patches, possibly signed. this is slightly more general than an ordered list of patches, but just as secure and interactive/manual	[02:17]
undata	and your nuke sub is going to get harder and harder to work on as the number of patches grows	[02:17]
asciilifeform	undata: i want it to get harder.	[02:17]
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asciilifeform	undata, Adlai: are you familiar with 'risk homeostasis' ?	[02:17]
Adlai	!s risk homeostasis	[02:17]
assbot	1 results for 'risk homeostasis' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=risk+homeostasis	[02:17]
Adlai	apparently logs aren't either!	[02:18]
Adlai	at least, not to a great degree... but i get the idea	[02:18]
asciilifeform	incidentally, esr had a piece on it.	[02:18]
asciilifeform	http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6271	[02:18]
assbot	Program Provability and the Rule of Technical Greed	[02:18]
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undata	asciilifeform: the process you've demanded be manual is not nearly a hard enough hurdle to filter undesirables	[02:19]
asciilifeform	this business, where things have to keep 'growing' for no apparent reason at all, needs to go.	[02:19]
undata	it's just a pain in the ass	[02:19]
asciilifeform	the point here is not to filter undesirable -people-	[02:20]
asciilifeform	but -things-.	[02:20]
asciilifeform	as in, cruft.	[02:20]
asciilifeform	look at extant software and you will see what happens to engineering when moving parts stop having weight and cost.	[02:20]
asciilifeform	it gets cancer.	[02:20]
asciilifeform	and since it never quite succumbs to the cancer, the tumours become planetary-sized.	[02:21]
asciilifeform	dwarfing the actual healthy tissue.	[02:21]
asciilifeform	how much of what is on your computer right now, actually -does- something ?	[02:21]
undata	I'll argue that git is doing precisely what you're doing by hand.	[02:21]
Adlai	i'm going to stop talking before i sound like a broken record, but this topic is likely to come up again once i've got something more substantial to say in defense of some tool for easing (ie, partially automating, up to the point of confirming signature verification) this process... no guarantee on how soon that could be, or which tool.	[02:21]
Adlai	darcs seems the likeliest candidate right now, though	[02:21]
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undata	you're not removing complexity; you're just making the same process slower	[02:22]
asciilifeform	undata: well, to the extent that any version control system can be cudgelled into coughing up output compatible with 'patch' - then yes.	[02:22]
asciilifeform	but it is that output, and only that, which i am willing to sign.	[02:22]
undata	asciilifeform: there is not one single canonical timeline in any project	[02:22]
asciilifeform	others can disagree, and sign the empire state building.	[02:22]
asciilifeform	let's put it another way. i will not sign anything that i cannot read.	[02:22]
asciilifeform	it's bad enough that we are dealing with a turd that is quite impossible to fully understand in the original.	[02:23]
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asciilifeform	but i will only sign deltas which consist of information which i can fully view.	[02:23]
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undata	to me you're saying damn the microscope or we'll never understand this cell	[02:23]
asciilifeform	undata: you are perfectly welcome to use a vcs of whatever flavour appeals to you	[02:24]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes, the one fellow who is really still working on this gizmo, is	[02:24]
undata	I'd like to slash out the db bits and try something else, but I'm not going to bother with trying to manually merge other people's patches as they come along in process	[02:25]
undata	that is precisely the scenario git helps	[02:25]
mod6	im not using one	[02:25]
*	asciilifeform isn't either	[02:25]
asciilifeform	undata: if you want to understand the whole point of the fork, try to understand what you lose when you choose a vcs as a canonical representation.	[02:26]
asciilifeform	or, alternatively, create own fork, with own point...	[02:26]
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asciilifeform	but don't be surprised if it is treated in the same way as the phoundation's original - at the very best, a place to steal bug fixes from.	[02:26]
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asciilifeform	undata: do you know how soviet nukes and spacecraft were assembled?	[02:30]
Adlai	wouldn't a better forking point be before any significant "crowd" involvement? cf https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors?from=2010-07-11&to=2011-04-27&type=c	[02:30]
asciilifeform	there was a three-man system	[02:30]
assbot	Contributors to bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub	[02:30]
asciilifeform	one would read instructions. another, turn a wrench, whatever. third would check that 2 corresponds to 1. then, all three sign under that step in recipe.	[02:30]
asciilifeform	all three - answer with their lives.	[02:30]
asciilifeform	this is how safety-critical systems work.	[02:30]
asciilifeform	and whiners who complain that this is arduous, unreasonable, etc. - are shown where the door is.	[02:31]
*	Adlai is not sufficiently familiar with each line of code itself to tell which of those contributions, or ones in the ensuing spikes, are trivially trustable, and which aren't	[02:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49173 @ 0.00042192 = 20.7471 BTC [-] {2}	[02:31]
undata	asciilifeform: it is absurd to think that software cannot help enforce that rigor	[02:31]
undata	or why did we make it at all?	[02:31]
undata	any software	[02:31]
asciilifeform	software is helping to the extent it is reasonable. for instance, i am trusting my text editor to display the actual source and not some diddled version.	[02:32]
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undata	asciilifeform: it's more likely that your text editor diddled than git did	[02:32]
undata	your text editor isn't checking against known hashes	[02:32]
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asciilifeform	idea is not 'which was diddled' but which one encourages reliance on greater and greater machine 'intelligence'	[02:32]
Adlai	undata: this is more along the lines of "confirm by human approval that an unforseen software/bureaucracy/insanity 'bug' isn't afoot"	[02:32]
asciilifeform	it is very easy to test if my text editor is lying.	[02:32]
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asciilifeform	(less easy to test if it is -capable- of lying, but that's another matter)	[02:33]
asciilifeform	but the argument here is not about sabotaged ken-thompson-style tools. but about tools that foster intellectual atrophy.	[02:33]
asciilifeform	and a dependence on the machine to resolve questions which ought to be resolved by the mind, and thus kept 'light weight' enough to be easily resolved by the mind.	[02:34]
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undata	being able to apply 700 patches by hand, having verified signatures on each one, is no measure of intelligence	[02:35]
asciilifeform	no.	[02:35]
undata	it confirms you're a ploddingly simple mechanical device	[02:35]
asciilifeform	it's a chore, yes	[02:35]
asciilifeform	can't really argue that it's a great joy.	[02:35]
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asciilifeform	and whatever aspects of it can be automated - should be	[02:35]
Adlai	according to github, v0.5.3 has 36 committers with github accounts (for example, doesn't include satoshi). compare this with starting on Apr 1, 2011: 8	[02:36]
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asciilifeform	but i will not be signing any patch that i can't apply with my mind, in my mental model of the code.	[02:36]
undata	Adlai: there is a mountain of bugfixing to re-apply	[02:36]
asciilifeform	and requires some complicated pattern-matcher to apply	[02:36]
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undata	asciilifeform: at some point wont you have to delegate that?	[02:36]
undata	torvalds addresses this regarding the kernel and git	[02:36]
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undata	he uses WoT to manage what makes it into the kernel	[02:37]
asciilifeform	lol re: linux kernel as an example to follow	[02:37]
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Adlai	of course, but the "manual trust verification" approach taken further would suggest only applying critical bugfixes, as patches, signed by the developer who wrote them (preferably with a signature published at the time of the fix, alternatively obtaining a signature in the present day... or manually verifying the patch's trustworthyness, and signing yourself)	[02:38]
undata	Adlai: so I sign the hash of the commit with my gpg key	[02:38]
asciilifeform	Adlai: there are two separate questions here, and we are only dealing with one	[02:38]
asciilifeform	that being - attribution.	[02:38]
asciilifeform	the most important thing is that each and every change, however slight, is attributable.	[02:38]
asciilifeform	now, and 100 years from now.	[02:39]
asciilifeform	'trustworthiness' can only be born from this.	[02:39]
asciilifeform	right now it is a null word.	[02:39]
Adlai	and how does what I just said miss that?	[02:39]
undata	asciilifeform: so are you going to trace that line of code by hand through 1500 patches?	[02:39]
asciilifeform	well, you referred to 'trustworthiness' which is a thing we have not yet invented.	[02:39]
undata	and is that more reliable than git blame?	[02:39]
undata	now I'm supposed to trust your infallible eye	[02:39]
asciilifeform	undata: picture the 0.5.3 turd as a piece of martian technology.	[02:39]
asciilifeform	let's pretend that it just happened to fall upon the earth.	[02:40]
Adlai	s/trust/origin/, s/manually verifying/claiming responsibility for/	[02:40]
undata	ha, yes.	[02:40]
asciilifeform	we have no idea, let's say, what parts are useful, and which ones are boobytraps designed to kill unwary earthling dissector.	[02:40]
asciilifeform	but we do know that among us are hostile martians, who would like us to come to harm.	[02:40]
asciilifeform	we want to know, even if it is fifty years too late, who they were.	[02:40]
asciilifeform	and the only way to learn it, is by their works.	[02:41]
undata	I might not try and use the thing at all.	[02:41]
asciilifeform	that's an option.	[02:41]
undata	I'd observe it then try a clean re-implementation	[02:41]
asciilifeform	i hear it's popular.	[02:41]
asciilifeform	aha but how to observe?	[02:41]
asciilifeform	and then how to convince others you are not a martian ?	[02:41]
asciilifeform	two separate problems.	[02:41]
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asciilifeform	conformal corp.'s reimplementation exists, for instance.	[02:41]
asciilifeform	and 2 or 3 others.	[02:41]
asciilifeform	why aren't we using them?	[02:41]
Adlai	well, you can't convince another person you're not a martian. hell, i don't think i could convince myself that i'm not unwittingly carrying out martian bidding.	[02:42]
asciilifeform	(well - at least, i'm not)	[02:42]
ben_vulpes	inertia	[02:42]
ben_vulpes	fear	[02:42]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: no.	[02:42]
asciilifeform	i won't use, because i was not privvy to the process whereby it was born.	[02:42]
asciilifeform	nor have any reason to place trust in the creators	[02:42]
Adlai	but you can ease recovery from covert evil martian sabotage	[02:42]
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asciilifeform	what recovery can there be, when your $maxint coins walk away?	[02:42]
asciilifeform	gotta understand why bitcoind < 0.6 is special.	[02:43]
ben_vulpes	why so much more confident in the satoshi turd than the conformal blackbox?	[02:43]
asciilifeform	because it is the only one which existed upon the earth before bitcoin was valuable!	[02:43]
asciilifeform	i thought this was elementarily obvious.	[02:43]
undata	but this can be taken to the absurd	[02:43]
ben_vulpes	best argument i've heard.	[02:43]
undata	satoshi = nsa	[02:43]
undata	it has always been broken	[02:43]
asciilifeform	undata: this comes up here at least once a month, and i regret to say that it is mostly my own fault.	[02:44]
Adlai	surely these purely hypothetical martians already had their eyes on it before "bitcoin was valuable"	[02:44]
undata	asciilifeform: I don't believe or disbelieve it	[02:44]
undata	one can always suppose a reason why tonight's the night they come to get him	[02:44]
asciilifeform	Adlai: there are at least six different hypotheses for why dr. evil has not yet pulled the trigger.	[02:44]
asciilifeform	one of them is that there was no dr. evil	[02:44]
asciilifeform	but there are at least five others.	[02:44]
asciilifeform	i think each of the regulars here has his favourite.	[02:45]
Adlai	at least one tla took an active interest back in 2011...	[02:45]
Adlai	and please elaborate on the hypotheses	[02:45]
Adlai	(or just point out log links/searches)	[02:45]
TheNewDeal	second that statement	[02:45]
TheNewDeal	the only one I can think of is, wait until it gets 10, or 100 times bigger	[02:46]
asciilifeform	!s nsa bitcoin	[02:46]
assbot	27 results for 'nsa bitcoin' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=nsa+bitcoin	[02:46]
undata	why would they create it? impending fiat disaster?	[02:46]
TheNewDeal	not interested about the nsa connection now, but the "why hasn't he pulled the plug?" question	[02:46]
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undata	TheNewDeal: supposing "he" is usgov; why wouldn't they just sit back and let it take over, and hold their 1/21 or more of it?	[02:47]
undata	and continue to be the thing they've been	[02:47]
Adlai	TheNewDeal: e no antecedent, in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014922735	[02:47]
*	assbot gives voice to joecool	[02:47]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets log	[02:47]
TheNewDeal	that's obvious to me why it doesnt matter if he is nsa	[02:47]
undata	I don't see a reason to pull any plugs	[02:47]
asciilifeform	undata: are you familiar with a figure called anatoly golitsyn?	[02:47]
joecool	!isitdup wiki.bitcoin-assets.com	[02:47]
undata	asciilifeform: I am not	[02:48]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-12-2013#421984	[02:48]
assbot	Logged on 15-12-2013 00:57:19; asciilifeform: anyone knows the story of a man called Anatoliy Golitsyn?	[02:48]
Adlai	fixfail: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#922735	[02:48]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 00:43:25; TheNewDeal: second that statement	[02:48]
joecool	kakobrekla: wiki is down?	[02:48]
undata	here's a doubling down of it: NSA intends to take over the hashing power of the network and implement coin validation	[02:48]
undata	ushering in a dark age	[02:48]
undata	haha	[02:48]
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joecool	yep, everything on bitcoin-assets.com down for me	[02:49]
undata	asciilifeform: yes that	[02:49]
Adlai	;;isup search.bitcoin-assets.com	[02:50]
gribble	search.bitcoin-assets.com is up	[02:50]
undata	bitcoin could easily be one of the most dystopian inventions ever	[02:50]
undata	depending on who has the hashing power and what they intend	[02:50]
asciilifeform	http://pastebin.com/LEKE04PY << for those who can't reach the log	[02:50]
assbot	00:57:19asciilifeform:anyone knows the story of a man called Anatoliy Golitsyn? - Pastebin.com	[02:50]
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undata	asciilifeform: this brings me back to my comments about the pile of weapons	[02:51]
*	Adlai likes how the pastebin gets dated by the newsfart mention	[02:52]
joecool	!isup log.bitcoin-assets.com	[02:52]
Adlai	joecool: try ;;	[02:52]
joecool	Adlai: search works here	[02:52]
joecool	;;isup log.bitcoin-assets.com	[02:52]
gribble	log.bitcoin-assets.com is up	[02:52]
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undata	the pentagon is the actual US govt	[02:52]
asciilifeform	!s meta-nsa	[02:52]
undata	this civilian bureaucracy is a skirt	[02:52]
assbot	30 results for 'meta-nsa' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=meta-nsa	[02:52]
asciilifeform	^ required reading for 'shadow government' aficionados	[02:53]
joecool	Adlai: used to ! on the otc channel, bad habit	[02:53]
asciilifeform	!s lizard-hitler	[02:53]
assbot	5 results for 'lizard-hitler' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=lizard-hitler	[02:53]
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Adlai	the lizard-hitler popular with my conspiracy friends has dabbled in history from a much earlier age	[02:54]
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asciilifeform	e.g., http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-12-2013#416393	[02:55]
assbot	Logged on 11-12-2013 00:40:16; asciilifeform: i can't help but imagine some fellow at Meta-NSA, with a pill against ECDSA hidden under a flower pot in his office, laughing his arse off at these morons.	[02:55]
Adlai	he/they are responsible for crossing mammal and reptilian "genes" (phenotypes? genotypes? details, damnit! details!)	[02:55]
Adlai	Homo sapiens [sapiens] being essentially some form of automaton / robot slave / controlled experiment, conducted by these lizard-nazis	[02:56]
asciilifeform	for those who slept,	[02:56]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922393	[02:56]
assbot	Logged on 14-11-2014 22:24:42; asciilifeform: (for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.)	[02:56]
Adlai	"slept"? more like "don't speak http"	[02:56]
Adlai	which is quite an illiteracy, these days	[02:57]
Adlai	!b 12	[02:57]
assbot	Last 12 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3A8FTX8.txt )	[02:57]
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Adlai	ignorance is bliss, eh assbot?	[02:58]
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Adlai	assbot is immune to suicidal depression, because it doesn't even know it exists	[02:59]
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*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[03:02]
nubbins`	;;seen asciilifeform	[03:02]
gribble	asciilifeform was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 minutes and 25 seconds ago: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922393	[03:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66300 @ 0.0004115 = 27.2825 BTC [-] {2}	[03:03]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: i'm right here.	[03:03]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2014#610903 << does security-over-obscurity preclude discussing further your uses of obsd?	[03:03]
nubbins`	hi	[03:03]
asciilifeform	at least for a few min.	[03:03]
assbot	Logged on 09-04-2014 09:10:25; mircea_popescu: tbh im kinda surprised teh tradepress isn't howling all about "in january, 'Bitcoin Baron Keeps a Secretive Open Source OS Alive' ; in april, nsa's crown jool is thrown in the dirt of the public space."	[03:03]
nubbins`	- if the project is deemed infeasible, 0.5 BTC (less tx fees) will be returned to a Bitcoin address specified by asciilifeform, no later than 2014-11-15.	[03:03]
asciilifeform	ah	[03:03]
nubbins`	loose ends and the tying up thereof!	[03:03]
asciilifeform	send it where it came from.	[03:03]
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nubbins`	k	[03:03]
*	Adlai is curious what is considered a secure stack for financial sites, eg mpex	[03:03]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36427 @ 0.00041773 = 15.2167 BTC [+]	[03:04]
nubbins`	i still want to print this if/when the time comes that the chicken is whittled down to edible meat and bone	[03:04]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: and i shall buy it.	[03:04]
Adlai	nubbins`: why aren't you printing it?	[03:04]
asciilifeform	Adlai: see jurov's chronicle: http://explo.yt/post/2014/10/29/some-dangerous-idea	[03:04]
assbot	A dangerous idea - serialized delusions	[03:05]
asciilifeform	(re: why not printed)	[03:05]
nubbins`	tl;dr you don't bronze turds	[03:05]
asciilifeform	except! in the case of the 1990s alt.tasteless 'golden turd award.'	[03:05]
asciilifeform	where - they did.	[03:05]
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nubbins`	heh	[03:07]
nubbins`	https://blockchain.info/tx/233caa80975f203b65927c705e5fa2876354ab6ddb8c4f684ca76ebeab44ab71	[03:07]
assbot	Bitcoin Transaction 233caa80975f203b65927c705e5fa2876354ab6ddb8c4f684ca76ebeab44ab71	[03:08]
asciilifeform	Adlai: what is considered a secure stack for financial << this is like asking, 'what is considered a good wife'	[03:08]
Adlai	and indeed, isn't it acceptable, in some circles at least, to look at family photos?	[03:08]
asciilifeform	'A Roman divorced from his wife, being highly blamed by his friends, who demanded, "Was she not chaste? Was she not fair? Was she not fruitful?" holding out his shoe, asked them whether it was not new and well made. "Yet," added he, "none of you can tell where it pinches me."'	[03:09]
asciilifeform	(plutarch, iirc)	[03:09]
joecool	hm reading about the assets project to roll back to 0.5.3, i see "rip out bdb" ? drop wallet support so it only functions as node?	[03:10]
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asciilifeform	joecool: rolling back was just step 1 in recipe.	[03:10]
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Adlai	this roman doesn't seem to care much for his friends' feet. perhaps the shoe's pinch points would bother them too, if they were to walk long enough in the same shoes?	[03:10]
nubbins`	notary http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5	[03:11]
nubbins`	what is it again	[03:11]
nubbins`	!s notary	[03:11]
assbot	26 results for 'notary' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=notary	[03:11]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5	[03:12]
notary	nubbins`: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.	[03:12]
ben_vulpes	joecool: what's a wallet?	[03:12]
joecool	ben_vulpes: wallet.db support	[03:13]
ben_vulpes	is management of a single address not enough for you?	[03:13]
nubbins`	:D	[03:13]
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asciilifeform	joecool: i don't believe that the current participants in turdatron really agree on what the ultimate end product should be (e.g., something like what conformal has, or a hardware implementation - what i want, etc.) but we do agree that a reference implementation is necessary before it even makes sense to ask the question.	[03:14]
asciilifeform	at the moment - we don't have a reference.	[03:14]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: thank you	[03:15]
nubbins`	np, may our day in the sun come	[03:15]
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nubbins`	!up dooglus	[03:15]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7723 @ 0.00042926 = 3.3152 BTC [+]	[03:16]
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nubbins`	incidentally, you'll get a chance to check out pictures of my large-format binding work later this month	[03:17]
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joecool	asciilifeform: i see, what exactly has been happening? were people expecting gavin to crap out a reference eventually or just keep adding BIP's and pile on the crap?	[03:19]
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nubbins`	i think "people" were expecting what people always have/will	[03:22]
nubbins`	everything, now, goddammit	[03:23]
joecool	nubbins`: someone else will get around to it	[03:23]
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nubbins`	saying shit like "we"	[03:23]
nubbins`	"we need"	[03:23]
ben_vulpes	"the people" want everything they're told they want and to pay for nothing.	[03:23]
ben_vulpes	kinda why the open source ownership of satoshi's codebase failed so dramatically.	[03:24]
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nubbins`	dat lack of bare-bones implementation, etc	[03:24]
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ben_vulpes	the preference of "the community" for something that sorta-works across a broad spectrum of use cases	[03:26]
ben_vulpes	(albeit poorly at any of them individually)	[03:26]
joecool	so there's a todo, is there a repo you guys are using or a a mailing list for patches?	[03:26]
ben_vulpes	ml for patches	[03:27]
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ben_vulpes	lol don't really know if it even works yet	[03:27]
undata	joecool: repo?! scoff!	[03:27]
thestringpuller	"There are no infinite loops in Ethereum because cycles cost currency and there is a finite amount of currency."	[03:27]
joecool	undata: cvs works for me	[03:27]
ben_vulpes	but if you're going to hack on it, start with the 0.5.3 dist at f9beb4d9.org, apply asciilifeform's "chicken" patch, and then yours on top of that.	[03:27]
joecool	ben_vulpes: thanks	[03:28]
thestringpuller	has anyone been able to load blockchain yet without exploding?	[03:28]
ben_vulpes	thestringpuller: i'm still inching my blockchain to wedging	[03:28]
ben_vulpes	i'm working to crap out a "blockchain" that i can use to test this wedge	[03:29]
ben_vulpes	er	[03:29]
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ben_vulpes	that i can use to track down potentially unwedging commits i should say.	[03:29]
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joecool	ben_vulpes: will it reindex a pulled in blockchain or is it a necessity to pull in from start to finish?	[03:35]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26400 @ 0.0004105 = 10.8372 BTC [-]	[03:41]
*	Adlai envisions a method of automatically sussing out the wedge point, but it requires the use of automation tools...	[03:41]
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Adlai	specifically, http://man.cx/git-bisect	[03:43]
assbot	Manpage for git-bisect - man.cx manual pages	[03:43]
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thestringpuller	joecool: after certain block it goes bananas	[03:44]
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joecool	always same block?	[03:44]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12295 @ 0.0004105 = 5.0471 BTC [-]	[03:44]
thestringpuller	dunno haven't tried again	[03:44]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22828 @ 0.00041956 = 9.5777 BTC [+]	[03:57]
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ben_vulpes	Adlai: git bisect is actually the plan	[03:59]
ben_vulpes	my plan, more accurately.	[04:00]
ben_vulpes	joecool: "reindexing" is something that gavin's fork does to find all of the transactions relevant to addresses in your wallet in a given blockchain.	[04:01]
ben_vulpes	required for "importprivkey" etc	[04:01]
ben_vulpes	reverifying the blockchain is something else entirely.	[04:01]
joecool	so 0.5.3 and earlier did not do such things?	[04:02]
Adlai	the only plan right now is http://music.tatranmusic.com/	[04:02]
assbot	TATRAN	[04:02]
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ben_vulpes	0.5.3 and earlier have wallets, and all the concomittant braindamage like "reindex"	[04:04]
ben_vulpes	0.5.3 is just a not unreasonable starting point for the project.	[04:04]
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ben_vulpes	the story behind its selection is pretty amusing and may need to be revisited.	[04:05]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: how much of what is on your computer right now, actually -does- something ? << i guess about half.	[04:06]
mircea_popescu	and that is probably rare.	[04:06]
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ben_vulpes	Adlai: additionally, i'm scripting the approach to the wedge point so that i can reproduce both the wedge and it not happening trivially with git bisect and other scripts	[04:07]
mircea_popescu	basically there'	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	s a conflict between enthusiasm and experience here.	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	enthusiasm is a sin.	[04:08]
Adlai	ben_vulpes: please share your bisection script	[04:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54873 @ 0.00042886 = 23.5328 BTC [+] {3}	[04:09]
ben_vulpes	Adlai: just in skeleton form atm	[04:09]
ben_vulpes	i don't have a blockchain that wedges yet, nor have i reproduced the wedging point	[04:09]
*	Adlai is in no hurry	[04:09]
ben_vulpes	stuff i've written so far: http://pastebin.com/Zf4T9xF7	[04:10]
assbot	[Bash] #!/bin/bash TEST_DATA_DIR=aplace WEDGE_BLOCK=999999 clean_data_dir() { - Pastebin.com	[04:10]
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ben_vulpes	this abomination is what's edging my copy of 0.5.3 up to the wedge point: http://pastebin.com/itWYUk9f	[04:11]
assbot	[Bash] #! /bin/bash # assumes that bitcoind is running blockmax=$1 should_continue - Pastebin.com	[04:11]
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ben_vulpes	hardly groundbreaking. just tiptoeing around, because...enthusiasm kills the sapper.	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes why the sleep ?	[04:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67550 @ 0.0004334 = 29.2762 BTC [+] {2}	[04:13]
ben_vulpes	no desire to tax the poor leaky boat	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	should be interestinf to see if sleep actually resolves [part of] memory leakage	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	-> race condition.	[04:13]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: undata: this comes up here at least once a month, and i regret to say that it is mostly my own fault. <<< that it has a good response is mostly your fault. that it appears... it'd have appeared anyway.	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	now if i only had a link to where it was put to rest, to pass along to undata	[04:15]
ben_vulpes	currach is the word i was looking for	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	carrack ?	[04:16]
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ben_vulpes	leather over wood prehistoric thinger?	[04:17]
ben_vulpes	coracle perhaps even	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	oh, no. this is the boat that mapped the world.	[04:17]
ben_vulpes	well its a crappy coracle dammit	[04:17]
ben_vulpes	bitcoin is the coin that changed the world but that doesn't mean the first try doesn't sink in heavy storms	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	http://www.stephenbiesty.co.uk/galleries_Atmospheric_Cutaways_Magellan'sCarrack.html	[04:18]
assbot	Stephen Biesty - Illustrator - Atmospheric Cutaways - Megallan's Carrack	[04:18]
asciilifeform	!s koraktor	[04:20]
assbot	11 results for 'koraktor' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=koraktor	[04:20]
asciilifeform	or maybe not.	[04:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2617 @ 0.0004249 = 1.112 BTC [-]	[04:21]
undata	mircea_popescu: regarding the NSA conspiracy, it's amusing, but doesn't seem likely that they'd undermine fiat intentionaly	[04:22]
undata	*lly	[04:22]
asciilifeform	does cia cocaine boat intend to undermine 'war on drugs' ?	[04:22]
asciilifeform	why does 'intend' even matter?	[04:22]
undata	asciilifeform: because unintentionally they're undermining their own existence by existing in the first place	[04:23]
nubbins`	anyone else find it mildly interesting that the last 5 chars in deed ID of jurov's signed treasurer's contract are "urovj"?	[04:24]
asciilifeform	me.	[04:24]
nubbins`	:D	[04:24]
nubbins`	i stared at it for like 10 minutes	[04:25]
asciilifeform	in other news, http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing	[04:27]
assbot	Lenta.ru: Силовые структуры: «Первый канал» показал спутниковые снимки атаки истребителем гражданского самолета	[04:27]
asciilifeform	i don't feel like translating.	[04:27]
asciilifeform	either 'google' or mircea_popescu	[04:27]
asciilifeform	tldr - ru satellite footage of death of mh-17	[04:28]
*	asciilifeform wasn't there, didn't watch, cannot swear to it	[04:28]
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nubbins`	:0	[04:29]
asciilifeform	let out in response to australian 'je'accuse'	[04:29]
Adlai	all this horseradish for just a file conversion!? http://www.zamzar.com/tos.php	[04:30]
assbot	Zamzar - Free online file conversion	[04:30]
asciilifeform	lol, american/uk sat.	[04:32]
undata	asciilifeform: the strange thing to me: it doesn't matter at all what actually happened	[04:32]
Adlai	it's considerably shorter than the usual legalese, but just for starters, they could have separate terms for all the paid cruft, and leave the free service simple	[04:32]
undata	these events serve as fine propaganda tools no matter what for both sides	[04:32]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34450 @ 0.00042727 = 14.7195 BTC [+] {2}	[04:32]
asciilifeform	undata: except when usg can be caught with pants down.	[04:32]
asciilifeform	and anally tickled until bursts.	[04:32]
undata	asciilifeform: the usgov can tag its own pentagon with a missile in broad daylight	[04:32]
asciilifeform	and let's say you caught it on film.	[04:33]
asciilifeform	yes, 'can have problems,' film will be denied, etc.	[04:33]
asciilifeform	but still improvement.	[04:33]
undata	seems like the US and Russia are gradually building support for a very large war	[04:35]
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mats_cd03	ha.	[04:35]
undata	meanwhile, related: they're starting to bang the Iraq war drum here, again	[04:36]
undata	only this time Syria must go as well	[04:36]
thestringpuller	https://github.com/cwinklevoss	[04:37]
asciilifeform	i can make one for hitler, what of it	[04:38]
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thestringpuller	silly winklevii don't code	[04:38]
undata	if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, and whatever I wanted in eastern ukraine, at least	[04:39]
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undata	and I'd most certainly try to help stir up whatever particular brand of shit the americans can't resist in the middle east	[04:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5598 @ 0.00043346 = 2.4265 BTC [+]	[04:40]
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mircea_popescu	anyone else find it mildly interesting that the last 5 chars in deed ID of jurov's signed treasurer's contract are "urovj"? << it's in the logs.	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, <<< obviously, you're not russia.	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	it needs more oil under a sheet of ice like kim kardashian needs more pubic hair.	[04:44]
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PeterL	doesn't russia pretty much have as much oil as they want right now anyway? why do they need an excuse to grab more?	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	yup.	[04:47]
Adlai	any theories on reasons for the temporal hint of correlation between btcfiat and s.mpoe?	[04:47]
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mircea_popescu	i was waiting for mike_c's words of wisdom	[04:47]
ben_vulpes	!t l s.mpoe	[04:47]
assbot	It says some pelt-wearin' trapper, some stinkin' bean-suckin' possum skinner, he's gonna collect that reward money.	[04:47]
ben_vulpes	!l s.mpoe	[04:47]
assbot	The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow.	[04:47]
ben_vulpes	!l mpex s.mpoe	[04:47]
mircea_popescu	!t m s.mpoe	[04:47]
assbot	Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00043346 BTC [+]	[04:47]
assbot	[MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.0004105 / 0.0004339 / 0.00046194 (2681850 shares, 1,163.66 BTC), 7D: 0.00036402 / 0.00053599 / 0.00065245 (7576604 shares, 4,061.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00036402 / 0.00067967 / 0.00081111 (23975563 shares, 16,295.66 BTC)	[04:47]
undata	mircea_popescu: still, controlling supply means having an influence on price	[04:47]
mike_c	i don't have any words of wisdom on mpoe.	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	undata you don't understand. siberia is a huge space, full of minerals they can't access because ice.	[04:48]
mike_c	feels cheap though.	[04:48]
ben_vulpes	wasn't the last major mpoe action a big rally during the big btc rally?	[04:48]
ben_vulpes	;;ticker	[04:48]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 391.71, Best ask: 391.72, Bid-ask spread: 0.01000, Last trade: 391.65, 24 hour volume: 20570.65837348, 24 hour low: 382.95, 24 hour high: 415.0, 24 hour vwap: 396.974151246	[04:48]
PeterL	and no way to transport out, no oil pipes	[04:48]
ben_vulpes	there is this sneaky theory that btc price is driven by mpoe holders	[04:48]
Adlai	well look who's been asleep now :P	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes pretty much yea	[04:49]
Adlai	so, why would they need to dump mpoe to boost btc?	[04:49]
Adlai	doesn't mpoe operate "within" bitcoin?	[04:49]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu will bang on about that at will	[04:49]
*	ben_vulpes shrugs	[04:50]
ben_vulpes	many legs to the trade	[04:50]
ben_vulpes	could just be momentum and a long dry spell on mpex	[04:50]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: except! in the case of the 1990s alt.tasteless 'golden turd award.' <<< anything good in there ?	[04:50]
ben_vulpes	i suspect mpoe acts as a stand in for an mpex market fund	[04:51]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: plenty	[04:51]
Adlai	note that i'm asking less "why did mpoe drop" and more "what evidence supports a correlation as the explanation for the temporal coincidence?"	[04:51]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: but we've no archive any more.	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	sux.	[04:51]
Adlai	for all i care, it could have risen. i hold none (yet)	[04:51]
ben_vulpes	Adlai: if anything, i'd have expected a surge as those who held mpoe bought more to balance their crypto holdings while accumulating more btc	[04:51]
ben_vulpes	mpoe is a goddamn mystery to me, Adlai.	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	Adlai afaik there was never in the entire history of bitcoin proposed some sort of credible / evidenced based interepretation of wtf it does.	[04:52]
ben_vulpes	for the first time ever my mpoe holdings are underwater	[04:52]
ben_vulpes	guess this means is hould sell, eh	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	Adlai: this roman doesn't seem to care much for his friends' feet. perhaps the shoe's pinch points would bother them too, if they were to walk long enough in the same shoes? <<< you know your crowd-* obsession is at some level based on the fundamentally evil notion that people are interchangeable.	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	people are not interchangeable.	[04:53]
asciilifeform	^	[04:53]
asciilifeform	whole point of the anecdote.	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	there isn't some sort of "us" that could just as well be a standin for any of us.	[04:54]
Adlai	people aren't interchangeable, but shoes (and artifacts of their ilk) are increasingly produced and repaired in an interchangeable manner	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	no mythical man month, because no mythical man, not because no mythical month.	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	Adlai this, because industry is increasingly a piece of shit.	[04:55]
ben_vulpes	yet somehow programmers are supposed to be a dime a doze?	[04:55]
ben_vulpes	dozen?	[04:55]
Adlai	dime a doze sounds closer to reality	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes the sort of "programmers" that "add features" should actually be charged to go to work.	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	like, gavin et all, should pay a daily fee to be allowed into the amusement park where they pretend like they matter	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	much like people pay to go to the theatre.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	much like strippers and whores pay for their place of work, don't get paid by the landlord.	[04:56]
ben_vulpes	they are paying, the bill just isn't due yet.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	i guess.	[04:56]
bagels7	being a whore is > working minimum wage your whole life	[04:59]
mircea_popescu	depends. spinoza managed just fine on minimum wage.	[04:59]
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ben_vulpes	huh i think mine's wedged elsewhere	[05:00]
ben_vulpes	nope nm	[05:00]
mircea_popescu	chain reorg ?	[05:01]
mircea_popescu	"Despite being drowned in graceful donations and membership fees, they just keep piling new and new code without proper specification and proper testing, making mistakes or even forks inevitable and thus providing cover for abominable interests."	[05:01]
mircea_popescu	you know, jurov is actually a very talented historian.	[05:02]
mircea_popescu	i like his story best so far.	[05:02]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923008 << a first step in some sort of appropriate direction could be http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/2014/11/daily-and-weekly-bitcoin-transaction.html although that article doesn't go far enough for interesting results	[05:03]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 02:49:52; mircea_popescu: Adlai afaik there was never in the entire history of bitcoin proposed some sort of credible / evidenced based interepretation of wtf it does.	[05:03]
assbot	Neighbourhood Pool Watch: Daily and weekly bitcoin transaction cycles	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	Adlai i meant, "wtf s.mpoe price does"	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	i thought that's what you were asking about.	[05:03]
Adlai	ah. well, both?	[05:03]
ben_vulpes	Adlai: bitcoin days destroyed is a good correlation to check too	[05:05]
Adlai	that, and block reward (fee amount, as opposed to fee count)	[05:05]
ben_vulpes	what's the thesis on block reward?	[05:05]
Adlai	not specifically relating to mpoe, more for possible next steps for analyzing bitcoin network activity metrics	[05:06]
Adlai	the article i linked looks just at confirmed transaction count, which is a narrow metric of all the stuff happening across the bitcoin network	[05:06]
*	Adlai looks at http://www.btcalpha.com/mpex/stocks/s-mpoe/ to place this activity in historical context	[05:08]
assbot	S.MPOE Analysis - Btc Alpha	[05:08]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html	[05:08]
assbot	lenta	[05:08]
mircea_popescu	aha ?	[05:10]
asciilifeform	translation mine. very quick'n'dirty.	[05:11]
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Adlai	while people might not treat people as interchangeable, dama fortuna does. "shit happens", especially in warzones... is the revelation in this article supposed to be surprising?	[05:14]
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*	Adlai probably used the word "article" a little liberally there	[05:14]
asciilifeform	only to victims of usg cranial reformatting.	[05:15]
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thestringpuller	asciilifeform: qntra submission?	[05:18]
asciilifeform	http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/MH%2017%20flight%20paths_0.png	[05:18]
asciilifeform	^ 'he ran into my knife! he ran into my knife - ten times.'	[05:18]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: yes, nominated for consideration on qntra	[05:18]
asciilifeform	or however that goes.	[05:19]
*	asciilifeform has no idea	[05:19]
thestringpuller	cazalla ^^^	[05:19]
*	Trix is now known as trixisowned	[05:19]
asciilifeform	and,	[05:19]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917653	[05:19]
assbot	Logged on 12-11-2014 00:20:12; mircea_popescu: i don't see you churning out an article a week about how "evil nato" and "nice putin"	[05:19]
cazalla	thestringpuller, not up to date on logs so no idea what this conversation is about yet	[05:20]
asciilifeform	message to moscow - can i pleez get thirty coins of silver now.	[05:20]
asciilifeform	cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923049	[05:20]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 03:06:23; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html	[05:20]
Adlai	!b 18	[05:21]
assbot	Last 18 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0FCDYXH.txt )	[05:21]
Adlai	that is some impressive lazyness, cazalla. i like it.	[05:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16402 @ 0.00043481 = 7.1318 BTC [+]	[05:22]
cazalla	Adlai, i read the logs daily, just yet to finish today	[05:23]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1249 @ 0.0012 = 1.4988 BTC	[05:25]
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thestringpuller	Adlai: cazalla has a media empire to run	[05:25]
*	Adlai is exponentially more likely to have read a log entry, according to the shortest path from the present moment back in time to the target entry, where b-a.com links are weighted roughly the same as simply reading backwards	[05:26]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: 0.5.3 and earlier have wallets, and all the concomittant braindamage... << the wallet code oughn't be snipped outright, but corralled. for later porting to msdos.	[05:29]
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Adlai	now that's an interesting hypothesis to test: a bot lurks and tracks "shortest path" to each past message, then records when i link it as opposed to somebody else links it to me	[05:29]
asciilifeform	(well, not necessarily msdos. any sufficiently deterministic system.)	[05:29]
Adlai	for increasingly stoned values of "interesting"	[05:29]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-10-2014#894581 << that thread.	[05:31]
assbot	Logged on 25-10-2014 03:56:49; asciilifeform: the correct solution is that (now unix-only) turdcoind will listen on a tty. serial tty.	[05:31]
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decimation	asciilifeform: ideally in hardware, with physically separate ports	[05:33]
thestringpuller	can't ssh? no pts?	[05:33]
Adlai	https://imgur.com/cuVBhfh	[05:34]
decimation	thestringpuller: you want to ssh to your wallet?	[05:34]
thestringpuller	i ssh to my spending wallet	[05:35]
thestringpuller	but given buterin's waterfall I emptied it out	[05:35]
cazalla	asciilifeform, as much as i appreciate the translation (my primary school teacher died on mh17), it's a bit of a stretch for qntra to publish it as bitcoin news	[05:36]
Adlai	http://i.imgur.com/cuVBhfh << ie, "advertising costs, PR, and miscellaneous" outweighed "ipo fees" during these months	[05:36]
cazalla	i mean, i see the angle given governments but still	[05:36]
Adlai	*these last 15 months	[05:37]
cazalla	Adlai, i'm up to date on logs now btw	[05:37]
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decimation	how do these 'northern route' theorists discount the satellite contacts from the engine control systems?	[05:37]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13737 @ 0.00042921 = 5.8961 BTC [-]	[05:38]
Adlai	or, in the king's english: MPOE needs to increase IPOs/¼	[05:39]
Adlai	or mpex	[05:39]
*	Adlai can never quite tell the two apart, sorta like body/blood and bread/wine	[05:39]
decimation	asciilifeform: re: our conversation about uav control systems: http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/10/why-air-force-drones-rely-on-horsehair-to-land/ << "That’s because the MQ-1/9 are controlled on Ku-Band, which has a two second delay back to the States ... Because of that, launch and recovery experts — trained specifically at Creech AFB for this part of the operation — are based much closer to the area of operations and	[05:40]
decimation	use C-band, which has no delay. "	[05:40]
cazalla	it is interesting they release the images just as the g20 starts here in australia	[05:40]
thestringpuller	adlai that image won't load	[05:41]
Adlai	https://i.imgur.com/cuVBhfh.png?0 "MPOE Net Expenses" snipped from http://www.btcalpha.com/mpex/stocks/s-mpoe/#cash_flow	[05:42]
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thestringpuller	Adlai do you know about MPCD?	[05:44]
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Adlai	(link works through torify curl, not sure why anything else should fail)	[05:44]
Adlai	!s mpcd	[05:44]
assbot	2 results for 'mpcd' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=mpcd	[05:44]
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thestringpuller	yup	[05:45]
Adlai	mpcd = 1JPvucRfu3ZzEvfBUQTJwsxMrZjeTqD6zR ?	[05:45]
decimation	;;ticker	[05:45]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 394.74, Best ask: 395.71, Bid-ask spread: 0.97000, Last trade: 394.71, 24 hour volume: 18807.38370404, 24 hour low: 382.95, 24 hour high: 415.0, 24 hour vwap: 396.951568236	[05:45]
thestringpuller	https://bitcointa.lk/threads/mpex-cdo-roll-call-for-bond-issuers.50044/#post-798717	[05:46]
thestringpuller	For the reason MPCD failed, is likely the reason MPIF is struggling to find profit centers.	[05:46]
thestringpuller	Which effects the entire MPOE economy.	[05:46]
thestringpuller	MPEx*	[05:47]
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asciilifeform	;;isup qntra.net	[05:50]
gribble	qntra.net is up	[05:50]
asciilifeform	odd.	[05:50]
asciilifeform	entirely dead here.	[05:51]
assbot	its been down for 20min	[05:51]
joecool	dead here too	[05:51]
asciilifeform	cazalla: if blob is unfit for qntra - whatever.	[05:52]
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Adlai	well, it looks like MPCD "failed" (the contract didn't fail, the shares "just" lost value) due to investing in what could be called "rockstar investors", who seem to make a habit of burning out spectacularly, taking half the fanbase with them	[05:55]
Adlai	more than any bug i've (inadvertently? subliminally coerced into?) introduced to scalpl, i regret the times that i've manually tweaked its trading parameters, and contaminated its performance data with human idiosyncrasies	[05:56]
decimation	qntra.net is dead here too	[05:57]
decimation	someone is messing with routing tables	[05:57]
decimation	trilema is dead too	[05:58]
asciilifeform	aha.	[05:58]
decimation	they are on neighboring subnets	[05:58]
Adlai	;;isup qntra.net	[05:59]
gribble	qntra.net is up	[05:59]
assbot	log1 as well, same box afaik	[05:59]
thestringpuller	same problem decimation	[05:59]
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assbot	its probably our friend 'little numbers' as i call him. he visited bitbet earlier for a moment.	[06:01]
decimation	my router bounces from telia to an isp in pheomix called "cwie llc"	[06:01]
decimation	traceroute that is	[06:01]
decimation	s/phoemix/phoenix/	[06:02]
assbot	phoenix? would be correct.	[06:02]
decimation	is that you kako?	[06:04]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: can't ssh? no pts? << there is no reason why wallet should be routable to the net.	[06:05]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: idea was - optoisolated point to point serial link.	[06:05]
asciilifeform	wallet - 'speaks when spoken to.'	[06:05]
asciilifeform	and not otherwise.	[06:05]
asciilifeform	and only when spoken to through the rx/tx wire.	[06:05]
assbot	would you believe me either way?	[06:05]
decimation	sure, if you responded as kako	[06:06]
decimation	asciilifeform: yeah that was my point.. just because something could be 'on the net' doesn't mean it should	[06:09]
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thestringpuller	asciilifeform: i understand	[06:11]
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decimation	!up cascadian_lurker	[06:13]
*	assbot gives voice to cascadian_lurker	[06:13]
cascadian_lurker	thanks d	[06:14]
cascadian_lurker	dunno how to tab complete on a pnohe	[06:14]
decimation	lol	[06:15]
cascadian_lurker	logs down?	[06:16]
decimation	log1 is down for me, log isn't	[06:16]
cascadian_lurker	I get no love at either endpoint	[06:17]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26764 @ 0.00043157 = 11.5505 BTC [+]	[06:24]
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assbot	log2 anyone?	[06:29]
assbot	log1 is back	[06:31]
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cazalla	qntra is back	[06:33]
decimation	was the server down?	[06:35]
cazalla	not sure, i just f5 f5 f5 f5 like anyone else	[06:38]
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BingoBoingo	assbot: SKip 2, loge	[06:46]
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cazalla	when looking for news, i come across quite a few MLM schemes for bitcoin such as bitcoincycler.net, quite a few use pic/video of JuliaTourianski_ lol	[06:46]
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cazalla	putin v aussie pm - http://i.imgur.com/orNOUF5.png	[06:47]
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decimation	once when I emerged from the Tube in London I was handed one of those free tabloids by some bum. I was amazed at the extremely low quality writing, and pro-welfare ads	[06:49]
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The20YearIRCloud	Sport, decimation ?	[06:51]
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decimation	eh?	[06:51]
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The20YearIRCloud	Weekend/sunday/weekday sport	[06:53]
decimation	yeah I guess that's why people don't immediately toss in the rubbish bid	[06:53]
The20YearIRCloud	https://twitter.com/thesundaysport	[06:53]
assbot	Sunday Sport (@thesundaysport) \| Twitter	[06:53]
decimation	eh, it could have been. I felt dirty touching the thing, didn't examine it closely	[06:54]
The20YearIRCloud	I love their 'articles', locally we used to have weekly world news, and it went under. However in the UK for some reason tabloids are HUGE there. Along with soap operas	[06:54]
The20YearIRCloud	http://www.sundaysport.com/?p=17812	[06:54]
assbot	DRUNK BONKS DONER KEBAB \| Sunday Sport	[06:54]
decimation	this stuff makes the daily mail look classy	[06:54]
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The20YearIRCloud	https://twitter.com/thesundaysport/status/531177165212360704	[06:56]
assbot	Warning: Don't buff your ballbag on a shoe shine machine. Here's why - in tomorrow's /thesundaysport http://t.co/moIlQF7RUE	[06:56]
decimation	here's the american version http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/14/gruber-has-made-at-least-5-9-million-for-government-work/	[06:56]
assbot	Gruber Has Made At Least $5.9 Million For Government Work \| The Daily Caller	[06:56]
The20YearIRCloud	That's a website though i think, the sport is an actual magazine in most places	[06:58]
decimation	why don't they have tabloids based in say columbus?	[06:59]
The20YearIRCloud	We have a few in the US, and they're all celeb rags. We had WWN but they went under	[07:00]
The20YearIRCloud	We'll never know what happened to batboy unfortunately	[07:00]
The20YearIRCloud	They still have a site, but no one visits it : http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/54540/chicago-to-be-renamed-obama-city/	[07:01]
assbot	CHICAGO TO BE RENAMED “OBAMA CITY” \| Weekly World News	[07:01]
decimation	lol	[07:01]
decimation	The20YearIRCloud: do you do any business in franklin county?	[07:03]
The20YearIRCloud	Housewise? No, not a fan of their zoning & property inspection board. If we grow enough i'm sure i'll HAVE to go there, but for now i'd like to avoid it.	[07:03]
The20YearIRCloud	One of the counties we're in has virtually no permiting process for home repairs, if I did the stuff I'm doing there in Columbus I'd of had 5 figures worth of fines.	[07:04]
The20YearIRCloud	(Of course, I'd of got a permit in Franklin, but I hate the idea of it all).	[07:04]
decimation	do you think that's because they are in the union trade's pockets?	[07:04]
The20YearIRCloud	That wouldn't surprise me much, but they also have had coleman who is a ultra-liberal for years and years.	[07:05]
The20YearIRCloud	He's got a big claim to fame because he's good at 'renovating' poor districts, he does it by moving all the poor people from one neighborhood to another.	[07:05]
The20YearIRCloud	Downtown was a cesspool, then they kicked everyone out and made it so only rich could live there, alot of those moved to the short north. Then they did the same thing with the short north and all those people moved to Linden and Hilltop.	[07:06]
decimation	I've heard the short north is popular with the kids around osu	[07:07]
The20YearIRCloud	I had a house up there I was dealing with for someone, and I had roofers up there doing work. Zoning came by and complained that we hadn't bought the $100 permit, so they forced the guys off the roof even though it was going to rain soon and wouldn't let them put the tarp up there till there was a permit.	[07:07]
decimation	this as much as anyone 'owns' a house in the us	[07:08]
The20YearIRCloud	Well, you can drive 45 minutes outside of a columbus where you can buy land, build a smoke factory and the county asks for a $5 paperwork fee and literally nothing else	[07:09]
decimation	heh	[07:09]
The20YearIRCloud	So, if I can go into a neighborhood where they really don't want me there, and one where the city bends over backwards to try and help me out, i'll go with the second one	[07:10]
The20YearIRCloud	Especially if the yields in both are almost identical	[07:10]
*	AndChat\|679296 is now known as RagnarsBitch	[07:11]
decimation	well, that's a fair point.	[07:11]
decimation	I imagine property tax in columbus and the 'burbs is sky high too	[07:12]
The20YearIRCloud	it's higher, it isn't astronomical though	[07:12]
The20YearIRCloud	A cheap house where we're working will run $450-$800 , same house in Columbus would be $1000-$1200	[07:12]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23499 @ 0.00042279 = 9.9351 BTC [-]	[07:12]
The20YearIRCloud	of course the scale of markets is quite different. In the 4 counties I expect to be able to find maybe 200 quality properties a year. In franklin I could find 200 a month easily.	[07:13]
decimation	for the quality of hovel you are buying and fixing, wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a few empty plots and buy some trailers or 'tiny homes' or whatever	[07:14]
decimation	I guess you gotta pay for utilities, etc in that case	[07:15]
The20YearIRCloud	You seen the houses we own?	[07:15]
The20YearIRCloud	I haven't delt with trailers yet, I want to but it's a different deal since you have to develop them out (including sewage) which is an EPA deal you can't get around easily.	[07:15]
decimation	I recall you saying a few months ago that they are all really old	[07:15]
The20YearIRCloud	Yeah, they are, but all are in good shape	[07:16]
decimation	yeah I guess where you are there is no water or sewage	[07:16]
The20YearIRCloud	It depends on where you want to do the trailer	[07:16]
decimation	septic systems are not cheap	[07:16]
The20YearIRCloud	Our first one was 2000sf, 5+br , 2ba, attached garage, built in 1880 and it turned out great	[07:17]
The20YearIRCloud	$10k-$20k	[07:17]
decimation	back in that time that would have been a mansion	[07:18]
decimation	or a multi-family house	[07:18]
The20YearIRCloud	Here's a bunch of random photos I had on my cellphone - https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rpzhm6eb5c14upe/AADe8OLgg4k-LFt2Xs3No9CEa	[07:19]
The20YearIRCloud	It would have been a medium/high level person's house. It's near downtown and is only a few houses away from a speakeasy that was in operation during prohibition. It sold recently (the speakeasy) for around $200k.	[07:20]
decimation	that's pretty nice inside actually	[07:21]
decimation	better than a trailer anyway	[07:21]
The20YearIRCloud	Those are 3 or 4 different houses	[07:21]
decimation	that first kitchen is nice	[07:21]
decimation	was that the amish fellows who cleaned it up?	[07:22]
The20YearIRCloud	I know I joke about owning slum houses, but they're all actually very nice. I underprice our rentals by maybe 5%-10% under normal market prices, and keep em in slightly better shape.	[07:22]
The20YearIRCloud	That first kitchen was the first complete rehab we did on a kitchen, every single thing there is brand new.	[07:22]
The20YearIRCloud	Second kitchen photo is from a duplex we just bought for $30k ($15k a side)	[07:23]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that flgiuht path thing is not nearly as indicative as it may seem to the casual observer.	[07:25]
mircea_popescu	flight paths in europe are seasonal.	[07:25]
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mircea_popescu	Adlai: now that's an interesting hypothesis to test: a bot lurks and tracks "shortest path" to each past message, then records when i link it as opposed to somebody else links it to me <<< actually a reconstruction of the ba logs where lines are nodes and they're given pr as per original google mechanism may be the first step towards stemming this whole bundle.	[07:27]
Adlai	right, but then you can look at properties of the graph's flow to draw wildly overzealous conclusions about the attentiveness and lazyness of real live humans	[07:30]
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mircea_popescu	decimation:trilema is dead too << still ?	[07:37]
BingoBoingo	http://m.tn.com.ar/deportes/tremendo/indignante-el-presidente-de-textil-mandiyu-le-robo-a-sus-jugadores-con-la-ayuda-de-los-barras_544582	[07:38]
decimation	yeah it's still down for me	[07:38]
mircea_popescu	decimation: my router bounces from telia to an isp in pheomix called "cwie llc" <<< this sounds like a route hijack then. qntra is in amsterdam.	[07:38]
decimation	interestingly I'm getting pings through, very very slowly	[07:38]
mircea_popescu	what ip ?	[07:38]
assbot	qntra is on phoenix nap, amsterdam.	[07:39]
mircea_popescu	http://qntra.net/2014/11/cfpbs-proposed-rules-governing-prepaid-cards-include-virtual-currency/	[07:39]
decimation	is it hosted by 'secured servers'?	[07:39]
mircea_popescu	the heck can i see it then ?	[07:39]
assbot	;;isup also everything even if it not a valid url	[07:40]
gribble	also everything even if it not a valid url is up	[07:40]
mircea_popescu	anyway, this is proving impossible to debug, people not seeing it pls to pastebin traceroutes at the time you don't see it.	[07:40]
mircea_popescu	uh so that's broken ?	[07:40]
mircea_popescu	;;isup example.com	[07:40]
gribble	example.com is up	[07:41]
decimation	hehe yeah	[07:41]
mircea_popescu	gah	[07:41]
decimation	;;isup isuck.com	[07:41]
gribble	isuck.com is up	[07:41]
assbot	"example.com" actually is up	[07:41]
mircea_popescu	internet needs a canoniucal down domain	[07:41]
mircea_popescu	;;isup obamacare.com	[07:41]
gribble	obamacare.com is up	[07:41]
decimation	;;isup canonicaldowndomain.com	[07:42]
gribble	canonicaldowndomain.com is down	[07:42]
decimation	lol	[07:42]
mircea_popescu	aha!	[07:42]
assbot	decimation yes its hosted there	[07:42]
mircea_popescu	http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923264 << srsly	[07:42]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 05:39:46; mircea_popescu: aha!	[07:42]
mircea_popescu	so how the fuck then!	[07:42]
decimation	well they have a pheonix pop	[07:42]
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decimation	who knows how shit gets routed	[07:43]
BingoBoingo	;;isup test.down	[07:43]
gribble	test.down is down	[07:43]
assbot	that entry is wrong, its routed just fine to ams	[07:43]
mircea_popescu	assbot : pm lol	[07:43]
mircea_popescu	also, re earlier discussion : http://i.imgur.com/0C5fmGB.jpg	[07:44]
decimation	is that your picture of an ohio hovel?	[07:44]
mircea_popescu	lol	[07:45]
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mircea_popescu	http://23.235.236.98	[07:46]
decimation	yeah qntra is up	[07:46]
decimation	I donno, it smells to me like a server problem	[07:47]
*	assbot gives voice to joecool	[07:47]
joecool	responding to ping for me, nothing else	[07:48]
mircea_popescu	how the fuck. the server has been up all along, the load is like 0.1 or some shit for the hour.	[07:48]
joecool	mircea_popescu: nginx or whatever other server you use on it crashed?	[07:48]
decimation	interesting	[07:48]
mircea_popescu	joecool nope.	[07:49]
mircea_popescu	how the fuck would i see pages on a crashed server anyway.	[07:49]
cazalla	is that Bruno Kucinskas all there in the head? he reckons patrick murck raped like 30 kids	[07:49]
mircea_popescu	phin gage is a little strange. he does tons of research, some of which is useufl.	[07:50]
Adlai	;;isup http://dead.link/	[07:51]
gribble	http://dead.link/ is down	[07:51]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923258 << localhost:0	[07:52]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 05:39:14; mircea_popescu: internet needs a canoniucal down domain	[07:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42500 @ 0.00043684 = 18.5657 BTC [+] {2}	[07:53]
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mircea_popescu	;;isup localhost:0	[07:54]
gribble	localhost:0 is up	[07:54]
mircea_popescu	so muh for that idea.	[07:54]
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Adlai	;;isup http://localhost:0/	[07:56]
gribble	http://localhost:0/ is up	[07:56]
Adlai	hmph.	[07:56]
Adlai	curl: (7) Failed to connect to localhost port 0: Connection refused	[07:56]
*	Adlai wonders what's running on... some server	[07:56]
assbot	;;isup adlais penis	[07:57]
gribble	adlais penis is up	[07:57]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[07:57]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1MAK2HC.txt )	[07:57]
assbot	ha, im unbashable	[07:58]
BingoBoingo	lol	[07:59]
decimation	the server is up, it looks to me that there is at least one route that is being ddosed/constantly reset	[07:59]
*	Adlai was wondering about ;;isup's server, should've !b5ed for that context	[08:00]
mircea_popescu	decimation the best i can come up with is that yes, some weakly router that is nevertheless for insane unexplainable reason priority route from the us is constantly fucked up	[08:00]
mircea_popescu	and im not even sure that i can do anything about it other than write angry letters.	[08:00]
decimation	yeah probably not	[08:00]
decimation	someone might have figured out how to trip the 'anti-ddos rate-limit' trap	[08:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3784 @ 0.00042279 = 1.5998 BTC [-]	[08:01]
BingoBoingo	At this rate we might need a router foundation!	[08:01]
mircea_popescu	why does it only catch you folk ?	[08:01]
decimation	I donno. if there is some theoretical anti-ddos filter, it might try to limit its action to certain subnets?	[08:02]
mircea_popescu	maybe ?	[08:02]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i'm having this looked into, but i tell you i dun even know wtf.	[08:02]
*	BingoBoingo hasn't had trouble accessing qntra in quite a while a few hundred miles from geographic center of USia	[08:04]
decimation	yeah in theory the internet has all kinds of redundant routing, in practice there are many chokepoints it would seem	[08:04]
Adlai	lizard nazis probing the turmite colony's readership habits	[08:04]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo so can you load it right now ?	[08:05]
BingoBoingo	Yeah, loads all kinds of fast	[08:05]
mircea_popescu	dude srsly...	[08:05]
RagnarDanneskjol	i just tried it from multiple IPs in US and EU - no luck here	[08:06]
decimation	I can get to qntra, but not trilema	[08:06]
joecool	qntra works from romanian ip	[08:07]
decimation	ah, now trilema works for me	[08:07]
mircea_popescu	o.O	[08:07]
joecool	lets try some other countries	[08:07]
mircea_popescu	joecool of course, i'm in argentina...	[08:07]
mircea_popescu	decimation this sporadic working no working would seem to mean route.	[08:08]
joecool	works from UK	[08:08]
decimation	yeah it could be some kind of route poisoning	[08:09]
mircea_popescu	the future of ba is point to point cabling it'd seem.	[08:09]
decimation	no - shortwave	[08:09]
Adlai	works now.	[08:09]
Adlai	(from tel aviv)	[08:09]
joecool	works back in 'murica now	[08:10]
joecool	they're onto us	[08:10]
mircea_popescu	maybe it's bitchbased.	[08:10]
BingoBoingo	Ass end of my traceroute to qntra.net http://dpaste.com/1QTVGPF	[08:11]
*	fivezerotwo (~fivezerot@178.162.205.24) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[08:12]
BingoBoingo	1up fivezerotwo	[08:12]
BingoBoingo	!up fivezerotwo	[08:12]
*	assbot gives voice to fivezerotwo	[08:12]
joecool	BingoBoingo: looks same as mine except i have a ??? between the last two	[08:13]
fivezerotwo	hello again. so assbot appears to be hosted on this server, interesting	[08:13]
fivezerotwo	have fun figuring out what this attack is ^_^	[08:13]
assbot	not rly.	[08:13]
fivezerotwo	assbot, well it was taking a while to respond here	[08:13]
Adlai	!s fivezerotwo	[08:14]
assbot	154 results for 'fivezerotwo' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=fivezerotwo	[08:14]
assbot	im a slow typist.	[08:14]
fivezerotwo	lol	[08:14]
*	Adlai toils and link graph bubbles	[08:15]
*	Namworld has quit ()	[08:17]
mircea_popescu	In the beginning there was assembler. And programming was hard. The semantic gap between how humans think about problems and what we knew how to tell computers to do was vast; our ability to manage complexity was deficient. And in the gap software defects did flourish, multiplying in direct proportion to the size of the programs we wrote.	[08:21]
mircea_popescu	And the lives of programmers were hard, and the case of their end-users miserable; for, strive as the programmers might, perfection was achieved only in toy programs while in real-world systems the defect rate was nigh-intolerable. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.	[08:21]
mircea_popescu	this is the stupidest thing i ever read.	[08:21]
mircea_popescu	i have NEVER and I do mean NEVER saw programs as good as bacxk in the days of asm.	[08:21]
mircea_popescu	i don't even think code as tight can still be made, much like you can't have a proper boot made anymore, and hardly a proper suit of clothes.	[08:21]
mircea_popescu	certainly not a top hat.	[08:22]
mircea_popescu	anyway, maybe their lives were harder, but 1960s programmers certainly seem happier.	[08:22]
mircea_popescu	perhaps because asm hard is the proper sort of hard. whereas dependency hell and library cruft is the horribly bad sort of hard.	[08:23]
decimation	well, the systems were small enough to 'fit in the head' as ascii might say	[08:23]
mircea_popescu	climbing a mountain versus diving in a septic tank sort of hard.	[08:23]
Adlai	!s bacxk	[08:23]
assbot	2 results for 'bacxk' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bacxk	[08:23]
Adlai	oh it's a typo	[08:24]
assbot	!b 3	[08:25]
mircea_popescu	lol you ocd soul you.	[08:25]
assbot	;;echo !b 5	[08:26]
gribble	!b 5	[08:26]
assbot	Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3WFTZ0G.txt )	[08:26]
assbot	nope, not satisfactory	[08:27]
mircea_popescu	;;echo !echo ;;echo !b 18	[08:27]
gribble	!echo ;;echo !b 18	[08:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13350 @ 0.00042279 = 5.6442 BTC [-]	[08:27]
mircea_popescu	;;google horatiu capastru	[08:30]
gribble	Iunie 2009 pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.: ; Gandesc, deci gandesc pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.:	[08:30]
Adlai	;;google recursion	[08:30]
gribble	Recursion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Recursion (computer science) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Recursion -- from Wolfram MathWorld:	[08:30]
Adlai	hm, no link to the google results page?	[08:30]
thestringpuller	;;isup qntra.net	[08:33]
*	Adlai is talking about "Did you mean: *recursion* "	[08:33]
gribble	qntra.net is up	[08:33]
thestringpuller	qntra still down for anyone in US?	[08:33]
mircea_popescu	is it for you ?	[08:33]
thestringpuller	yessir	[08:33]
decimation	qntra.net is down for me now, trilema too	[08:34]
fivezerotwo	mircea_popescu, it's down, I'm sure. http://check-host.net/check-http?host=qntra.net	[08:34]
*	mircea_popescu shrugs	[08:35]
TheNewDeal	bitbet is raging on	[08:35]
thestringpuller	http://dpaste.com/3H14489.txt << when asking coinbase about buterin's waterfall	[08:39]
mircea_popescu	lol why harassing indians.	[08:40]
*	Duffer1 has quit (Quit: Duffer1)	[08:40]
Adlai	thestringpuller: why not link in http://qntra.net/2014/11/bip-65-revisiting-nlocktime/ to the polished code? https://github.com/adlai/bitcoin/blob/polish/src/main.h#L397	[08:40]
assbot	BIP-65: Revisiting nLockTime \| Qntra.net	[08:40]
mircea_popescu	wait was this supposed to work ?!	[08:41]
thestringpuller	Adlai: i can't see the article yet so I can't answer the question	[08:42]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller it's your article from yest	[08:42]
mircea_popescu	or w/e the 13th was	[08:42]
*	assbot removes voice from fivezerotwo	[08:42]
Adlai	or if you don't want to use the polish fork for some reason, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.5.3/src/main.h#L403	[08:43]
TheNewDeal	!sideways fivezerotwo	[08:43]
Adlai	thestringpuller: BIP65 article, link to CTransaction::nLockTime	[08:44]
thestringpuller	yes I see. does it really matter?	[08:44]
*	trixisowned (~sahsfakhf@75-166-32-235.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[08:45]
thestringpuller	just a uint32 variable I was trying to show	[08:46]
Adlai	nope	[08:48]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i don't even think code as tight can still be made, much like you can't have a proper boot made... << oh but it can.	[08:48]
mircea_popescu	maybe.	[08:49]
decimation	asciilifeform: on new hardware?	[08:49]
asciilifeform	decimation: on whatever hardware.	[08:49]
asciilifeform	decimation: another generation or three of 'this', and hardware will look like the same shitfest as os/sw stack is now. fortunately 'this' doesn't have even one generation left in it.	[08:50]
mircea_popescu	so we hope.	[08:51]
mircea_popescu	if they find fusion, it does.	[08:51]
decimation	'this' being the current state of computing?	[08:51]
asciilifeform	if they find fusion, laser wars between flying machines.	[08:51]
asciilifeform	hopefully everything is destroyed.	[08:51]
thestringpuller	hmm. am I on qntra blacklist?	[08:51]
thestringpuller	@mircea_popescu	[08:51]
decimation	I want my pocket laser gun	[08:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61450 @ 0.0004271 = 26.2453 BTC [+] {2}	[08:52]
asciilifeform	incidentally, for implications of working fusion, straight to:	[08:52]
asciilifeform	!s you and the atomic bomb	[08:52]
assbot	8 results for 'you and the atomic bomb' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=you+and+the+atomic+bomb	[08:52]
asciilifeform	applies just as readily here as it did in 1945 re: fission.	[08:53]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller it dun has a blacklist	[08:53]
decimation	imagine 'future war' where your squad as a 'laser machine gun'. In order to take the next hill, you need to lay down suppressing fire. the laser machine gunner opens up, and the enemy doesn't notice	[08:53]
asciilifeform	qntra dead here.	[08:53]
decimation	qntra is dead, but trilmea just popped up again	[08:53]
asciilifeform	lol, laser suppressing fire	[08:53]
thestringpuller	guess east coast thing	[08:53]
asciilifeform	what next, laser musketry volley?	[08:53]
decimation	maybe he can screw 'pew pew pew'	[08:54]
thestringpuller	;;lasers	[08:54]
gribble	┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ pew! pew! pew!	[08:54]
decimation	s/screw/scream/	[08:54]
decimation	I suspect that fusion-powered robots will be doing most of the fighting anyway	[08:54]
Adlai	asciilifeform: if you want to find when bitcoin started to have value, just look at when people began hoarding it: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/2881 suggests the april 2010 as the start of hoarding	[08:54]
asciilifeform	decimation: meatbags will still do 100% of the dying.	[08:54]
decimation	sure	[08:55]
decimation	plus robot ninjas are expensive	[08:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17350 @ 0.00042279 = 7.3354 BTC [-]	[08:55]
mircea_popescu	what next, laser musketry volley? <<< srsly. what's this supression fire, like laser welding ?	[08:56]
mircea_popescu	Adlai what's this "start of hoarding" thing mean ?	[08:56]
decimation	I imagine there's going to have to be some kind of visible protocol, otherwise the enemy would simply be confused about what's going on	[08:56]
mircea_popescu	the first blocks mined are still unspent.	[08:57]
asciilifeform	the enemy can be reasonably certain of his own death.	[08:57]
asciilifeform	when it happens.	[08:57]
mircea_popescu	decimation if you could fire silent bullets you'd find loud ones because protocol ?	[08:57]
decimation	yeah, like full metal jackets	[08:57]
mircea_popescu	and wtf is "visible laser" anyway	[08:57]
Adlai	mircea_popescu: playing around with the magnitude of "valuable" in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#922718	[08:57]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 00:41:00; asciilifeform: because it is the only one which existed upon the earth before bitcoin was valuable!	[08:57]
mircea_popescu	not like military grade laser will be like in star trek	[08:57]
asciilifeform	visible laser << rayleigh scattering.	[08:58]
decimation	right, one that transmits somewhere in the visible spectrum (to humans)	[08:58]
asciilifeform	switch on a toy green laser in dark room.	[08:58]
Adlai	max paranoia = starting around april 2010, at least one tla began stockpiling coins	[08:58]
asciilifeform	switch on large far-ir laser - also visible (!) - heated air	[08:58]
decimation	I suspect the first 'military laser' will be infrared	[08:58]
mircea_popescu	decimation you're late. the first military laser IS co2, uv.	[08:58]
decimation	heh yeah good point	[08:59]
decimation	but that wasn't really a man-portable system	[08:59]
mircea_popescu	it woulkd be uv and uuv anyway. higher energy better focus less scatter.	[08:59]
asciilifeform	which 'military laser' ? there are 1000.	[08:59]
Adlai	well, short of satoshi acting in a tla-ish manner, perhaps due to belonging to a tla himself	[08:59]
mircea_popescu	;;ud tla	[08:59]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TLA \| TLA is a three-letter-acronym for three-letter-acronyms. by uncle tom ... It always have been and will be Lucas and Peyton, TLA (True Love Always). by lp_tla ...	[08:59]
decimation	Something you could give to a grunt to replace his rifle	[08:59]
mircea_popescu	i doubt you will have man operated lasers anyway	[08:59]
mircea_popescu	it'd be 100% drones	[08:59]
asciilifeform	what the hell would be the point?	[08:59]
mircea_popescu	right ?	[09:00]
decimation	exactly	[09:00]
asciilifeform	i suppose it's hard to blow yer own brains out with a drone.	[09:00]
asciilifeform	although still doable.	[09:00]
mircea_popescu	why hard ?	[09:00]
decimation	or frag your lt	[09:00]
asciilifeform	incidentally, if 'cheap and compact source of infinite energy', the 'plasma rifle' from 'doom', etc. can exist.	[09:01]
decimation	actually this brings up a good point, why aren't 'silent guns' more popular in military circles	[09:01]
Adlai	"TLA is a three-letter-acronym for three-letter-acronyms." << i'd go as far as/cronyms/gencies/	[09:01]
mircea_popescu	decimation because they can't be made.	[09:01]
asciilifeform	ionized atmosphere with laser, pump current through	[09:01]
asciilifeform	a la 'jacob's ladder.	[09:01]
decimation	are you saying that you can't use a silencer and a sub-sonic round?	[09:01]
dub	lockheed are buildinf fusion batteries now	[09:01]
dub	wont be long	[09:01]
mircea_popescu	so they claim yeah.	[09:01]
asciilifeform	decimation: the actual 'silent pistol' does not use a gas silencer.	[09:02]
asciilifeform	nor is it entirely silent	[09:02]
mircea_popescu	i suppose the next logical bezzle step is a tesla-lockheed merger	[09:02]
asciilifeform	(mechanical noise from the action. the bullet still whistles. etc)	[09:02]
mircea_popescu	just think, the promise of the electric car married to the promise of the fusion battery	[09:02]
decimation	yeah I agree they aren't 100% silent, but the advantages of silence seem to be large	[09:02]
asciilifeform	decimation: http://topwar.ru/21240-besshumnyy-patron-hm76-ssha.html	[09:02]
asciilifeform	that one.	[09:02]
BingoBoingo	are you saying that you can't use a silencer and a sub-sonic round? << Range and terminal energy at the target become huge problems this way	[09:02]
asciilifeform	gas stays in.	[09:02]
mircea_popescu	decimation swat / town warfare teams use supressed weapons	[09:02]
mircea_popescu	mostly so they don't bleed from the ears.	[09:03]
decimation	I suppose the idea that the 'standard grunt' is snaking up on someone is unlikely	[09:03]
decimation	s/snaking/sneaking/	[09:03]
decimation	but snaking works too	[09:03]
thestringpuller	solid snake	[09:03]
asciilifeform	incidentally, if the magic fusor can be nudged into chain reaction, it's game over.	[09:03]
decimation	asciilifeform: what do you mean, like a fusion bomb?	[09:03]
asciilifeform	doesn't even matter if 99 in a hundred men who open theirs, die	[09:04]
asciilifeform	decimation: yes.	[09:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not hard to make it limited.	[09:04]
asciilifeform	'Had the atomic bomb turned out to be something as cheap and easily manufactured as a bicycle or an alarm clock, it might well have plunged us back into barbarism, but it might, on the other hand, have meant the end of national sovereignty and of the highly-centralised police state. If, as seems to be the case, it is a rare and costly object as difficult to produce as a battleship, it is likelier to put an end	[09:05]
asciilifeform	to large-scale wars at the cost of prolonging indefinitely a ‘peace that is no peace’.'	[09:05]
asciilifeform	make it limited << lol	[09:05]
asciilifeform	what has been limited by the hand of man, can be un-limited.	[09:05]
mircea_popescu	how ?	[09:05]
Adlai	thestringpuller: overall though i liked the bip65 article, it was worded neutrally enough that it could almost be tagged 'News'	[09:05]
asciilifeform	unless the case is one of 'intrinsic' safety a la fissile mechanics	[09:05]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform has the hand of man enabled the disabled cores in an intel chip ?	[09:05]
decimation	right, the 'fissile' bomb runs out of fissile material	[09:05]
mircea_popescu	how do you add deuterium inside the core ? with an enema pump ?	[09:05]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: give man a few days with ion beam workstation.	[09:05]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: if you sit down and think about it for a bit, you can figure out six different methods.	[09:06]
mircea_popescu	yeah, and ?	[09:06]
asciilifeform	'there is no safe that can be kept in the robber's living room.'	[09:06]
mircea_popescu	i'd rather think about kim's butt.	[09:06]
mircea_popescu	so would 99 men in a 100	[09:06]
asciilifeform	aha but we just need the 1.	[09:06]
dub	kim dotcom?	[09:07]
cazalla	mircea_popescu, working but slowly http://pastebin.com/4XCDXVSi	[09:07]
mircea_popescu	well, let's ut it this way : the reason the state does not collapse in a tsunami of violence is not now nor was it ever historically that such would be physically impossible.	[09:07]
mircea_popescu	it is always that nobody can be bothered.	[09:07]
cazalla	well, qntra is intermittent for me	[09:07]
mircea_popescu	otherwise, see the experiences of the various members of the tsar's fambly with artisanal bombs	[09:07]
asciilifeform	what if herr frein spent his life contemplating how to rewire his fusor	[09:07]
asciilifeform	instead of marksmanship	[09:07]
mircea_popescu	dub no, the fat female kim. champagne assgirl.	[09:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this curren state will collapse regardless. not a technical, but a policital problem. it just sucks.	[09:08]
mircea_popescu	nothing can save it.	[09:08]
asciilifeform	right now it takes more than one man, however enthusiastic, working in his basement for twenty years, to level a city.	[09:08]
mircea_popescu	not so	[09:08]
mircea_popescu	recall the case of the kid who built his own nuke	[09:08]
mircea_popescu	out of smoke detectors ?	[09:08]
asciilifeform	except he didn't	[09:09]
decimation	he just built a waste site	[09:09]
mircea_popescu	well, he didn't work for the full 20 years either.	[09:09]
asciilifeform	lovely legend, but fails kindergarten physics.	[09:09]
decimation	although thorium is a fissile material	[09:10]
mircea_popescu	the sad truth of the matter is that with the current state of manufacturing, i could build my own nuke. wouldn't even take a decade.	[09:10]
asciilifeform	at any rate, the operative boojum wouldn't be the demolition of a particular plot of real estate.	[09:10]
mircea_popescu	i can centrifuge my own uranium, there's plenty of places where it's directly exploitable etc.	[09:10]
asciilifeform	but a demonstration of 'with fiddybucks any discontented sod can now do it where he wants'	[09:10]
mircea_popescu	the fact that the iranians don't manage just shows how fucktarded htey are. it's by now a one man job.	[09:10]
thestringpuller	Adlai: i don't think it was tagged as news	[09:10]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: use laser separation.	[09:11]
mircea_popescu	im not intending to lay out an actualrecipe here	[09:11]
mircea_popescu	just making the general point.	[09:11]
asciilifeform	1/10000th the cost of conventional gas centrifuge.	[09:11]
asciilifeform	above is more or less the recipe	[09:11]
decimation	sorting out u235 from the other neutron spewing isotopes isn't trivial	[09:11]
asciilifeform	(u-235 and u-238 have different absorption spectra)	[09:11]
mircea_popescu	decimation the original bombs were'nt that classy.	[09:12]
mircea_popescu	they won a war	[09:12]
mircea_popescu	the much classier later versions won no war.	[09:12]
mircea_popescu	see what i mean ?	[09:12]
asciilifeform	actually iran tried to build laser separator. the men involved - died. and not of industrial accidents.	[09:12]
TheNewDeal	thats to be determined	[09:12]
asciilifeform	died of 'problems'	[09:13]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform kinda what i mean by "inept iran"	[09:13]
asciilifeform	then they went on to the 'old classic' recipe, and made sure to run moar winblows.	[09:13]
asciilifeform	(literally)	[09:13]
mircea_popescu	state that can't build a pot is one thing. state that can't keep a secret however, deserves to die.	[09:13]
Adlai	!s feeling of power	[09:14]
assbot	12 results for 'feeling of power' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=feeling+of+power	[09:14]
Adlai	excellent	[09:14]
asciilifeform	state that can't keep a secret << incidentally, notice that no complete 'dump' for ru nuke of whatever variety ever hit the net.	[09:14]
cazalla	mircea_popescu: certainly not a top hat. <<< maybe akubra? nfi on top hats but they have a solid rep	[09:14]
Adlai	specifically http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2014#624410	[09:14]
assbot	Logged on 14-04-2014 18:26:21; gribble: THE FEELING OF POWER by Isaac Asimov Worlds of Science ...: ; The Feeling of Power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; MathFiction: The Feeling of Power (Isaac Asimov) - Alex Kasman:	[09:14]
mircea_popescu	cazalla i know specifically what im talking about, because the last looms capable of making the required felt were destroyed a decade ago as part of a family feud.	[09:15]
mircea_popescu	the world has physically lost the capacity to produce top hats.	[09:15]
mircea_popescu	to me this is much worse news than the extinction of whatever stupid fish or crap	[09:15]
decimation	asciilifeform: of course stalin's agents were all over the us bomb as it was being made	[09:15]
asciilifeform	aha like the u.s. hbomb tamper foam.	[09:15]
cazalla	mircea_popescu, sounds familiar, this story on trilema?	[09:16]
asciilifeform	some of us here, imho, shall live to see the felt brought back.	[09:16]
mircea_popescu	cazalla not sure, mebbe not.	[09:16]
cazalla	something to do with looms is, that i know	[09:16]
asciilifeform	;;google fogbank	[09:17]
gribble	FOGBANK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Fog Bank: Capitola's Funnest Bar & Grille: ; Jeffrey Lewis • FOGBANK:	[09:17]
asciilifeform	^ relevant	[09:17]
decimation	what about the homburg hat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homburg_%28hat%29	[09:18]
BingoBoingo	http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt#comment-43664788	[09:25]
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mircea_popescu	oh for fucks sake	[09:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41927 @ 0.00042729 = 17.915 BTC [+]	[09:26]
mircea_popescu	fucking idiot.	[09:27]
asciilifeform	exam - failed.	[09:27]
mircea_popescu	see, it's imbeciles like this that cause trouble. now the point will have to be carved out of some innocent women's skin that nobody gives a shit.	[09:27]
mircea_popescu	had he just pointed and laughed at the "offended" idiots we could have just moved on.	[09:27]
mircea_popescu	basically matt taylor is personally responsible for a few violent gangrrapes now.	[09:28]
mircea_popescu	we need to bully these autistic savants a whole of a lot more, can't be letting the libtards having all the fun.	[09:30]
decimation	yeah I don't get it, if your'e gonna wear a shirt with semi-naked women in front of an international audience, show some follow-through	[09:30]
asciilifeform	'Knowledge can be lost. Sometimes this is perfectly reasonable: No one knows how to kill and skin a mastodon anymore, for obvious reasons. And cultures frequently lose knowledge as they evolve past it--you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could write a computer program on punch-cards today. But there is something worrisome about misplacing knowledge that is only a generation or two old. And this happens mor	[09:31]
asciilifeform	e often than you might think. ... ... Space enthusiasts say, 'If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we put a man on the moon?' "The answer, Simberg explains, is that we can't "because most of the people who did it are in their dotage or dead, and a lot of it was more art than science."'	[09:31]
asciilifeform	( http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/479avvbv.asp?pg=2 )	[09:31]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform im pretty sure i can still write on punch cards.	[09:31]
asciilifeform	not hard.	[09:31]
asciilifeform	bad example, not because of greybeards, but because of demented archaeologists like yours truly	[09:32]
asciilifeform	and i can hardly imagine a modern big-game hunter having any serious troubles with a mastodon.	[09:32]
asciilifeform	but i can sorta see the point he was trying to make.	[09:32]
mircea_popescu	i sorta can't.	[09:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45200 @ 0.00043661 = 19.7348 BTC [+] {2}	[09:33]
asciilifeform	eh we just skinned a balloon, haven't we.	[09:33]
mircea_popescu	knowledge != technology.	[09:33]
decimation	asciilifeform: there's a good example of the 'art v. science' re: moon program here: http://eb-misfit.blogspot.com/2013/10/relighting-saturn-vs-f-1-rocket-engine.html?showComment=1381683061332#c1607749688683256926 "There were single welds on the engine that took all day to weld, by hand, and there were thousands of such welds. The engineers working on the new F1 copy say that theirs has less than 1/10th the parts of the original F1	[09:33]
decimation	and should be easily mass produced. "	[09:33]
mircea_popescu	i still know how to make a felt hat	[09:33]
mircea_popescu	doesn't mean the machines still exist.	[09:34]
decimation	each saturn rocket was basically a metal art peice	[09:34]
Vexual!@	added to ignore list.	[09:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6109 @ 0.00043769 = 2.6738 BTC [+]	[09:34]
asciilifeform	decimation: this is not actually uncommon at the 'what is the factory made of' level in industry.	[09:34]
asciilifeform	ultimately, there is no factory that churns out pilot plants	[09:35]
mircea_popescu	used to. nowadays it's pretty rare.	[09:35]
asciilifeform	craftsmanship all the way down, after a certain point.	[09:35]
decimation	there's a point there	[09:35]
decimation	someone has to program the robots after all	[09:35]
asciilifeform	much of what makes civilization tick, is not available off the shelf, and the entire notion is nonsensical.	[09:36]
mircea_popescu	whosoever programs the robots doesn't have to do so with chewing gum however.	[09:36]
mircea_popescu	the fact that bitcoin .5.3 is full of spot welds is not a quality.	[09:36]
punkman	.notary status	[09:37]
punkman	notary status	[09:37]
notary	punkman: 1 pending deed \| Last bundle 6 hours and 14 minutes ago \| 1 unconfirmed bundle	[09:37]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: imagine if, e.g., the 'golden gate' bridge had been built by a retarded child. out of match sticks.	[09:37]
asciilifeform	and it were still in use.	[09:37]
punkman	speaking of shitty code, thing's stuck again	[09:38]
mircea_popescu	http://i.imgur.com/RUvwvFk.gif	[09:38]
decimation	it seems to come down to a question of economics, it's generally cheaper to pay a master craftsman to labor over one item, but if one is building thousands it is worth the start-up cost of the robots	[09:38]
asciilifeform	decimation: except that none of this conceptually even applies to a computer program.	[09:38]
decimation	unfortunately no	[09:38]
decimation	one can imagine the software craftsman being aided by tools (likely of his own making)	[09:39]
decimation	but the idea of 'mass production software' is nonsensical	[09:39]
thestringpuller	!up fivezerotwo	[09:39]
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mircea_popescu	this "ctrl-c at console" business is so... hm. primitive.	[09:41]
mircea_popescu	in the positive sense of that term.	[09:41]
punkman	:)	[09:42]
asciilifeform	like a death certificate that reads 'stopped breathing'	[09:42]
mircea_popescu	nah, more like a hmm....	[09:42]
punkman	so electrum is blocking forever when I try to send a tx, then the tx sending thread gets stuck	[09:42]
mircea_popescu	nah, more like a retarded athlete who, after a majorly incredible game where his team won very closely or lost very closely is like	[09:43]
mircea_popescu	"well... we lost"	[09:43]
mircea_popescu	myeah dude.	[09:43]
thestringpuller	$conference	[09:44]
empyex	thestringpuller: Next conference starts in 5 months and 2 days. Estimated cost today: 3.31292039 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )	[09:44]
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asciilifeform	re: top hats: i vaguely recall that the planet lost the capacity to make toothpicks for a few months at some point in '09 (?)	[09:45]
asciilifeform	chicom firm cornered the market, the story went, to the point of total monopoly - then went bust	[09:45]
RagnarDanneskjol	punkman i think eventually you're gonna ahve to ditch electrum and run a daemon - these issues are somewhat known and why deedbot 1.0 replaced it w/ api	[09:45]
asciilifeform	perhaps i dreamed all of this.	[09:45]
punkman	RagnarDanneskjol: oh deedbot1.0 tried to use electrum?	[09:46]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Clam one of yours?	[09:46]
RagnarDanneskjol	yes	[09:46]
RagnarDanneskjol	went through several versions	[09:46]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo sorry ?	[09:47]
RagnarDanneskjol	the last one actually works perfectly fine - just was on unsecure server	[09:47]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: From the gif where it did the salt licking	[09:47]
punkman	RagnarDanneskjol: well it didn't actually verify deeds	[09:47]
asciilifeform	salt?!	[09:47]
RagnarDanneskjol	how's that?	[09:47]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo ah no, bounty of teh internets.	[09:48]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes. salt.	[09:48]
*	asciilifeform wanders off to consider this.	[09:48]
fivezerotwo	thanks thestringpuller	[09:49]
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mircea_popescu	"This muddle finally hurts those following in the researcher's path. Long after he has his Ph.D. or his tenure, inquiring students will be put off by the document he has left behind. He seems to have solved everything already, so the report says, yet there is no tangible evidence of it besides the report itself."	[09:56]
mircea_popescu	oh brother...	[09:56]
notary	Confirmed bundle 1NUkX9oL with 1 deed \| http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/1NUkX9oLgWDpzWanrsxKdgUqs7JaRUKG4u	[09:57]
BingoBoingo	http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/polygraph-com-owner-accused-of-training-customers-to-beat-the-polygraph/	[09:57]
mircea_popescu	this is actually the fundamental problem with western academia. the self-licking icecreamcones problem is just a convenient frosting over this, but the point remains that even should that matter be solved, as it trivially would be solved - by say a stalin, which is always cheap	[09:57]
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mircea_popescu	nevertheless academia would STILL be fundamentally broken to the point of complete dysfunction.	[09:57]
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RagnarDanneskjol	http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2660293	[10:13]
RagnarDanneskjol	[Founding Digital Currency on Secure Computation]	[10:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23272 @ 0.00042858 = 9.9739 BTC [-]	[10:20]
cazalla	RagnarDanneskjol, meh not promoting something that thinks "When a user wants to create an address, the user provides her identity to an IVS. The IVS checks that the provided identity is the identity of a real person who can be located and be accountable if illegal activity is detected, similar to existing Bitcoin payment systems such as Coinbase." is a good idea	[10:28]
RagnarDanneskjol	they have some lame and some rather novel ideas in there	[10:30]
notary	Confirmed bundle 1MH7Ri8j with 1 deed \| http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/1MH7Ri8jmVKWouMdUijZQoH4hsZQb2txq2	[10:32]
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Adlai	you wouldn't say that militaries are still churning out pilot plants, but the automation/control balance of piloting itself has shifted?	[10:36]
Adlai	(that was re: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923619 )	[10:37]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 07:32:47; asciilifeform: ultimately, there is no factory that churns out pilot plants	[10:37]
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RagnarDanneskjol	lols http://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/embracing-https/?_r=2	[10:53]
RagnarDanneskjol	!up Vexual	[10:57]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36210 @ 0.00042725 = 15.4707 BTC [-] {2}	[11:03]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23040 @ 0.00042362 = 9.7602 BTC [-]	[11:04]
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RagnarDanneskjol	https://www.spark.io/	[11:05]
punkman	RagnarDanneskjol: similar thingie https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11395	[11:11]
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mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo "It appears he's list 5 billion since June 30th" << lost ?	[11:58]
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BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Probably? Where to fix?	[12:08]
mircea_popescu	your article re buffet	[12:08]
mircea_popescu	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/10/24/buffet-problems/	[12:09]
assbot	Buffet Problems \| Bingo Blog	[12:09]
BingoBoingo	Ty, fixed	[12:09]
mircea_popescu	and with that, it is time for ass!	[12:10]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[21:02]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[21:02]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[21:02]
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mircea_popescu1	hmm, is freenode being ddosed again or what ?	[21:03]
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mircea_popescu	meh, is freenode being attacked or what	[21:03]
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mircea_popescu	kakobrekla yo!	[21:04]
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mircea_popescu	TheNewDeal	[21:08]
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TheNewDeal	gracias	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	np	[21:08]
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TheNewDeal	assbots back, simply amazing	[21:19]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	hey there buttboy!	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla you know, assbot totally should respond to buttboy	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	in other news : http://pastebin.com/S4fwBbpQ	[21:21]
assbot	Return-path: Envelope-to: * Delivery-date: Sat, 15 Nov 201 - Pastebin.com	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	and jurov thought HE had issues with whitespace via email. check out this kiddie, 100+ 0x20s	[21:21]
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Anduck	.deed	[21:24]
punkbot	Anduck: (deed [url]) -- search [url] for signed deeds and queue them.	[21:24]
Anduck	o	[21:24]
Anduck	.help deed	[21:24]
punkbot	Anduck: (deed [url]) -- search [url] for signed deeds and queue them.	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	punkman no moar notary ?	[21:24]
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Anduck	fine, fine. dont help me damn ass bot	[21:24]
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mircea_popescu	punkman no moar notary ?	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	Anduck one sec ill fish out an example for you.	[21:25]
Anduck	mircea_popescu: does it cost to use deed service?	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	not yet./	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	donation powered so far.	[21:25]
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Anduck	alright	[21:25]
Anduck	sounds pretty good as in it doesn't shit the chain	[21:25]
Anduck	at least compared to the others...	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	Anduck 15-11-2014 01:09:45 .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5 << like so.	[21:26]
Anduck	thx	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	yeah it's well designed.	[21:26]
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Anduck	well, who holds the database?	[21:26]
Anduck	is it decentralized? it doesnt have to be but it'd be great if it was	[21:26]
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mircea_popescu	you can dld your own copy. otherwise, punkman is maintaining the deedbot service.	[21:27]
Anduck	remember the link for copy?	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	shit.	[21:27]
Anduck	i checked deeds site, didnt even see an api	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	it doesn't have an api, but you can get json/rss iirc.	[21:27]
Anduck	mm	[21:28]
Anduck	true	[21:28]
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mircea_popescu	punkman i forget, how does one download the bundles ?	[21:29]
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punkman	there are links bottom of bundle page	[21:30]
punkman	and code is here https://github.com/extempore/deedbundler	[21:30]
assbot	extempore/deedbundler · GitHub	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` THERE ARE NO HUNGRY PEOPLE WHERE I LIVE << lawl.	[21:30]
n6	Namworld nanotube Naphex nezZario nhanH nick1234abcd NormDePloome	[21:30]
n6	Namworld nanotube Naphex nezZario nhanH nick1234abcd NormDePloome	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	o there you are.	[21:31]
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mircea_popescu	so wha' happened to notary ? and can the main address: 1LAwrWMbPLLSpt7nkD5Jv1Yf4cwPhD98ny \| contact: punkman@freenode get a count of deeds added in the middle ?	[21:31]
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punkman	mircea_popescu: it disconnected and had to use alt name, guess I should set it up to revert to notary	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	xanthyos: so coinbase gets 4 full days to abort my purchase, which they will, if the prices goes up, and they won't if it levels or drops. with btc market volatility they have a sure thing <<< not really, because a) there's not so many people ike you, actually using them and b) the respective 0.2 bitcents or w/e add to about enough to buy me a steak.	[21:32]
Anduck	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CKWWskHB	[21:34]
punkbot	Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	xanthyos: california is a scam state and hollywood has used its media to convince the world that it doesn't suck there, but it really does <<< this is by design. cute but stupid 17 yo chick from minesota goes to cali to be rich and famous, has to confront the unexpected situation where being homeless there sucks so as to eagerly overcome her education and suck cock.	[21:34]
Anduck	hmm:(	[21:34]
Anduck	.deed add http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CKWWskHB	[21:34]
punkbot	Anduck: Error: 'add' is not a valid http url.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	if she knew about the knife she perobably wouldn't run there.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	Anduck no add in the examplke i gave you	[21:34]
Anduck	mircea_popescu: as you saw, i tried without first	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	ah yes.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	;;gettrust assbot anduck	[21:35]
gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask Anduck!~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck. Trust relationship from user assbot to user anduck: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 5 via 5 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=anduck \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=anduck \| Rated since: Tue May 8 11:28:43 2012	[21:35]
mircea_popescu	o.O did you find a bug ?	[21:35]
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mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/X8aNSdsY	[21:38]
*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[21:38]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:38]
assbot	-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, This is deeds.bitcoin-a - Pastebin.com	[21:38]
nubbins`	it verifies	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=X8aNSdsY	[21:38]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:38]
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nubbins`	and the fingerprint matches anduck's	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` yup, and it verifies to his correct key.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	yeah.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	Anduck we thank you for your test, ye cursed by the gods :)	[21:39]
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nubbins`	yeah, interesting.	[21:39]
punkman	yeah good signature indeed, hmm	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	and if anyone wonders wtf, i tried to see what happens if i add a newline at the end.	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	but no dice.	[21:40]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=krnmUkra	[21:40]
punkbot	nubbins`: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.	[21:40]
*	nubbins` shrugs	[21:40]
nubbins`	something to do with your key or your relationship to someone	[21:41]
nubbins`	punkbot checks trust to assbot?	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	by spec it should.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	but it objects that the MESSAGE is invalid.	[21:42]
nubbins`	ehh that's just what the error says	[21:42]
Anduck	well	[21:42]
Anduck	my educated guess: newlines problem	[21:43]
mircea_popescu	nubbins`: i won't know when the pan is hot enough! << look at the oil.	[21:43]
mircea_popescu	eventually you will be able to tell, just by looking	[21:43]
mircea_popescu	(your eye does see ir. you just don't mentally see it, but you do see it.	[21:43]
nubbins`	yeah i wait for first wisps of smoke now, but viscosity is a good judge	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	that entire "can't distinguish hot glass from plain glass is bunk. you can, just need to look at it)	[21:44]
nubbins`	as well	[21:44]
nubbins`	Anduck i'm not so sure	[21:44]
nubbins`	i copy/pasted your deed text to my machine, signed it, and it worked	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	wow that's interesting huh	[21:45]
nubbins`	now tbf copypasta has its own newline quirks i'm sure	[21:45]
nubbins`	but i think punkman covered all bases w.r.t. newlines	[21:45]
nubbins`	Anduck try signing a single line of text	[21:46]
punkman	only explanation is the bot doesn't have your key	[21:46]
nubbins`	how does the bot get keys	[21:46]
punkman	fetches from sks	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW	[21:47]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	o.O	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	no. the signature block fucks up something	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	maybe something as idiotic as "one line starts with slash" or w/e.	[21:47]
nubbins`	oh, i just took his original text, not the block	[21:47]
nubbins`	huh	[21:47]
nubbins`	ineresting	[21:47]
nubbins`	+t	[21:47]
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nubbins`	Anduck i guess try signing any other message and submitting it	[21:48]
punkman	mircea_popescu: I think problem with that is that it stops at nested END PGP SIGNATURE, instead of the outer one	[21:48]
nubbins`	hmm	[21:48]
punkman	but I remember testing that case	[21:49]
nubbins`	sounds like a regex fix	[21:49]
punkman	guess I didn't	[21:49]
nubbins`	END PGP SIGNATURE----- $ or smth	[21:49]
*	nubbins` always has to look that stuff up	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` no lol, cuz no in spec :D	[21:49]
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mircea_popescu	punkman it stops at the commented out one ?	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	ye - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ?	[21:50]
punkman	yeah, I know how to fix that	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	kk	[21:50]
punkman	but why the hell is Anduck's key missing	[21:50]
punkman	should have been there when I bootstrapped pubring	[21:50]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/29Ed1j5b	[21:51]
punkbot	nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	jurov: when cooking with olive oil, i can say by smell it's right temp << also butter yeah.	[21:51]
assbot	-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESS - Pastebin.com	[21:51]
nubbins`	oops	[21:51]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=29Ed1j5b	[21:51]
punkbot	nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:51]
nubbins`	ok yep nesting breaks	[21:51]
nubbins`	still doesnt explain anduck's weirdness	[21:52]
Anduck	._.	[21:52]
joecool	prob threw finncrypt at it	[21:52]
joecool	breaks everything	[21:52]
nubbins`	Anduck try another deed, would be nice to see if that was a problem with your key or your deed	[21:52]
Anduck	ok	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1i7QYM8g	[21:53]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	HA!	[21:53]
Anduck	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=sgyrnSKb	[21:54]
punkbot	Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:54]
Anduck	deed ?!??	[21:54]
Anduck	do i need to have this same text somewhere else	[21:54]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=tuWJ5TrH	[21:54]
punkbot	nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:54]
nubbins`	haha it's the forward slash at the start of a new line.	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	aha!	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	my intuition!111	[21:55]
Anduck	heh	[21:55]
Anduck	confirm it.	[21:55]
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mircea_popescu	now we throw eggs at punkman :D	[21:55]
nubbins`	heh	[21:55]
nubbins`	Anduck you could probably just add a whitespace char to your original text, sign it, it'll work	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` clearsign doesn't produce the same signature on the same text btw.	[21:56]
Anduck	let's see	[21:56]
nubbins`	o no?	[21:56]
nubbins`	well til	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	think about it.	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	if it did, your messages would be brittle.	[21:56]
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nubbins`	i'm still only functionally literate wrt pgp	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	jurov: when RT invites amir taaaki as bitcoin expert, it's clear what they are up to, but when they pull some "dutch expert" it's suddent sacrosanct truth <<< lol he got you there asciilifeform	[21:58]
Anduck	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JZQ0PkwU	[21:58]
punkbot	Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	bwhahaha	[21:58]
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Anduck	i guess	[21:59]
Anduck	hmm..	[21:59]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=vGkqhFr0	[21:59]
punkbot	nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[21:59]
nubbins`	o.O	[21:59]
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Anduck	.deed anduck.net/ducktest.txt	[22:00]
punkbot	Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[22:00]
nubbins`	looks like it's expecting a very limited charset for that first char	[22:00]
mircea_popescu	apparently.	[22:00]
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punkbot	Confirmed bundle 13u9WbT7 with 1 deed \| http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/13u9WbT7N8WeBAH2kKrvkrPESenDMBpLMU	[22:01]
nubbins`	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=sPzaFq8s	[22:01]
punkman	I think I may have borked permissions of gpg dir just now	[22:01]
punkbot	nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[22:01]
nubbins`	WHAT.	[22:01]
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nubbins`	\|0\|	[22:01]
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mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski: can anyone remember the title of that trilema article where mircea_popescu discloses how much he sold that 5% chunk of mpex for? << http://trilema.com/2013/smpoe-takes-strategic-investor/ ?	[22:03]
assbot	S.MPOE takes strategic investor pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[22:03]
mircea_popescu	!up supay	[22:03]
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mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski: modesty the likes of which would shock a johnny come lately reader << But within that basic framework there are many subtle variations, only discernable to an acute observer, that reflect the many moods, the many shades, the many sides of MP!	[22:05]
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mircea_popescu	(this is morning mist)	[22:06]
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mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski:"where's the $1.5mn funding for nanotube's WoT" << perhaps you don';t understand what "a protocol for decentralized and password-less authentication" means.	[22:08]
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mircea_popescu	nubbins`: (CIS = http://imgur.com/5uggnbK ) <<< lawl.	[22:10]
assbot	imgur: the simple image sharer	[22:10]
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punkman	.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JZQ0PkwU	[22:11]
punkbot	punkman: Error fetching URL: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JZQ0PkwU (HTTP Error 404: Not Found)	[22:11]
assbot	Pastebin.com Unknown Paste ID	[22:11]
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punkman	.deed http://anduck.net/ducktest.txt	[22:12]
punkbot	punkman: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.	[22:12]
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mircea_popescu	\| 34 \| Gavin Andresen \| 0 \| << not in forum trust list ; \| 33 \| OgNasty \| 1 \| << in forum default trust list.	[22:12]
punkman	yeah your key was missing for some reason	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	so much lulz.	[22:12]
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mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=X8aNSdsY	[22:13]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW	[22:13]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=X8aNSdsY	[22:14]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: dupe)	[22:14]
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mircea_popescu	so... wait.	[22:14]
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mircea_popescu	ah nm.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1i7QYM8g	[22:14]
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punkbot	mircea_popescu: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW	[22:15]
punkbot	mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[22:15]
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mircea_popescu	so basically only http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW is still weird.	[22:15]
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punkman	will put that on todo list	[22:16]
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mircea_popescu	- Expenses: 1505 (1257 Slickage, the rest mostly mods) << according to theymos, tardstalk has spent half a million dollars to one million this year.	[22:17]
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punkman	on another message he says he's spent $350k on Slickage	[22:18]
punkman	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=451893.0;all	[22:18]
assbot	LEAKED - Latest status on forum software	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	what's slickage ?	[22:19]
punkman	some web developers	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	someone paid 350k to "web developers" ?	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	lmao	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	;;rated theymos	[22:19]
gribble	You have not yet rated user theymos	[22:19]
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punkman	;;rate thermos -5	[22:20]
gribble	Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	;;rate theymos -10 defrauded the tardstalk community by throwing ~half a million dollars worth of BTC at some obscure service provider for kickbacks. a lenghty history of fraudulent behaviour, http://trilema.com/2012/scammer-tag-nefario-theymos-others-known-and-unknown/	[22:21]
assbot	Scammer tag : Nefario, theymos, others known and unknown pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[22:21]
gribble	Rating entry successful. Your rating of -10 for user theymos has been recorded.	[22:21]
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punkman	well don't know if that quote is real	[22:23]
punkman	but either way	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	he does mention the name in his "report"	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/slickage-studios << this thing. it never had 10k incoming in its lifetime.	[22:23]
assbot	Slickage Studios \| CrunchBase	[22:23]
punkman	"let's make our own forum software, compete with SMF"	[22:24]
punkman	in node.js no less	[22:24]
mircea_popescu	unlike the SEC, MP actually is tough on fraud.	[22:24]
*	mircea_popescu waves @maryjo	[22:24]
mircea_popescu	jurov you don't understand how the nodes work!	[22:26]
punkman	https://github.com/slickage/epochtalk	[22:26]
assbot	slickage/epochtalk · GitHub	[22:26]
*	dnaleor_ is now known as dnaleor	[22:26]
jurov	i'm laughing because i do understand a bit	[22:26]
punkman	seems no commits since June	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	2 contributors << lol.	[22:27]
*	jurov looks forward to Math.random pwnage	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	so basically the 1-10 man dev studio is exactly one guy.	[22:27]
punkman	and more derpage https://github.com/slickage/adness https://github.com/slickage/baron	[22:27]
assbot	slickage/adness · GitHub	[22:27]
assbot	slickage/baron · GitHub	[22:27]
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punkman	oh my bad they are still developing https://github.com/epochtalk/core	[22:31]
assbot	epochtalk/core · GitHub	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	adding core to something makes it better	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	like, punk was dead, but then punkcore!	[22:32]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: what was his project (mentioned in the comment) ? <<< you perhaps recall i said at conference i want two things made, an advertising service and a jobs board. we had some initial discussions about it, we ran into a bunch of conceptual difficulties about how exactly to handle the job descriptions/contractual enforcement, which turned out a much more complex task than originally imagined, last was "we	[22:34]
*	u00 (~u00@did75-2-81-57-107-201.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:35]
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mircea_popescu	we'll have to think about this some more" and it's the last i heard from him on the topic. or in general, really. that was back in may.	[22:35]
mircea_popescu	anyway, the job board still needs to be made because this system where i drop something in chat and someone either happens to be here or happens to see it in logs is perhaps not optimal.	[22:36]
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mircea_popescu	on the other hand, it does provide proper incentive for noobs to read the thing, much to their benefit even if "they don't want to, because they know better", so whatevs.	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: is there, somewhere, a smoky bar where they down hard drinks and tell anyone who'll listen how 'it was all a sham11!1!' ? << not afaik, tho i'd like to have a hard drink myself. tho i imagine that'd ruin it huh.	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: this may also explain the disappearance of moiety and a few other folks. <<< it's not a bad theory in any sense. got any policy proposals based on it ?	[22:40]
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punkman	a bunch of conceptual difficulties about how exactly to handle the job descriptions/contractual enforcement << interesting in hearing some of those	[22:41]
punkman	*interested	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	punkman you familiar with the problems surrounding bitbet bets resolution ?	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	they [used to] spill out into here with some regularity.	[22:42]
punkman	well some of them at least	[22:42]
mircea_popescu	right. what do words "mean" ? and especially, what do contracts OBVIOUSLY mean.	[22:42]
mircea_popescu	this is not a trivial problem in any sense : http://trilema.com/2013/our-emperor-deliver-us/	[22:42]
assbot	Our Emperor, deliver us. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[22:43]
*	gabriel_laddel (~user@c-67-161-28-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	"In support of their argument that the Agreement preserves liability only for malicious breaches, defendants argue that the word “willful” would be unnecessary unless it meant “malicious.” There is no reason to limit liability to breaches that are intentional, they claim, because any breach of this Agreement would be intentional—”heavily counseled parties to mega-mergers do not breach merger agreements out	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	of inadvertence, negligence, or mistake.” As a factual matter, this claim is questionable. It could just as well be said that heavily counseled parties to mega-mergers do not sign merger agreements containing glaringly ambiguous terms that lead to avoidable litigation—but here we are."	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	!up gabriel_laddel	[22:44]
-assbot-	You voiced gabriel_laddel for 30 minutes.	[22:44]
*	assbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel	[22:44]
gabriel_laddel	does anyone with experience with either gentoo or funtoo care to share their impression(s) of the projects? I'm interested in which group of devs is more intelligent, sane, etc.	[22:44]
Anduck	punkman: what was the error?	[22:44]
mircea_popescu	gentoo is well established, and currently my recommendation for noobs looking at linux.	[22:45]
punkman	Anduck: didn't have your key for some reason	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	Anduck therewas also an unrelated issue discovered, regarding first character on a line, so tyvm.	[22:45]
punkman	no slash character theory was silly	[22:46]
punkman	but problem with nested sigs	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	punkman no, because it failed on the test bundle above.	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#924229	[22:46]
assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 20:12:52; punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	meh wait, wrong one.	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	ah yes right you are, nm.	[22:48]
*	supay_ is now known as supay	[22:49]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: The whole idea that anything can be so "shared" as to have no value in itself is not a problem if the rest of the world ensures that nobody _is_ starving or needing money. <<< this is nonsense anyway. money is always needed, this is a scaling problem. average rat living in a hole in the middle east linking his pretenses to humanity to his possesion of an old cellphone someone lost may think ben_vulpes' l	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	ife is the end of want, having a wife and a house in the amerca!!!	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	however, ben himself wants a tower of hydrocarbons.	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	and if he gets it, he'll want something else.	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	there's no such thing as "not needing money" except for coma patients.	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	wanting is the sign of intellectual health, just like erections are the sign of reproductive health. if you're lying down with teh nekkid gals and get no pang to trash them around it doesn't mean you reached nirvana, it just means you're not long for this world.	[22:54]
punkman	http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/list-keys.txt plenty of 1024 keys	[22:55]
jurov	didn't we solve a yesterday's conundrum about nature of life?	[22:55]
jurov	ie.e life can be defined as anything that needs money	[22:55]
jurov	or maybe intelligent life...	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	kik	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	punkman put 1024 keys together with the irc nicks so i can send them a later tell ?	[22:56]
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Anduck	are 1024s yet bad?	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	best move on, yeah.	[22:58]
Anduck	well yup	[22:59]
punkbot	Confirmed bundle 1EWUaXVR with 3 deeds \| http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/1EWUaXVRx4Mm94Q9m6J3BRN3TEjRcnmmuw	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: wage labour is wage labour, whether for usd, btc, or gold dubloons <<< this is an iffy proposition.	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	"wage labour" on fain, on a voluntary basis (internet work, add links, vote on links, comments -> collect points -> take out btc) had average monthly payments well over 1 btc. AVERAGE.	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	plenty of people took out 100 btc in one month. back then this was you know, a few hundred bucks, "wage".	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	they probably sold it, of course, but if they did not, they have a lot more liquid btc than say goat.	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	or any of the other talented folk that got in early, got out early.	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	so wage for btc is not unlike wage for stock warrants, ie, typical start-up work.	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	in any case : i do not exactly believe b-a is intended for the workaday people. let them put a decade in, build themselve financially to the position where they can participate in a start-up, and intellectually to the position where they actually aren't quite AS fucktarded as the average 20something.	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	because no, i don't credit for a minute this theory whereby the 20yo male is the be-all end-all hope-and-pride of humanity.	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	bitcoin isn't college sports.	[23:09]
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mircea_popescu	TheNewDeal: did not feel the need to argue the point that no on in their right mind wants to stock shelves at the Canadian superstore at 2am <<< why should they get a choice ?	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	obviously if that's the only job they can get they AREN'T in their right mind. so why should their unright mind get an option as to what it wants to do ?	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	not everyone's brain works, even if everyone's brain THINKS it does.	[23:13]
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mircea_popescu	nubbins`: getting tired of the bellicose rhetoric << "why can't we all just get along" ?	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	fuck me, i dun wanna get along with idiots.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	it's not a matter of why or wherefore. i just do not wish to.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	i suppose the one true source of trolling is exactly that. ironically enough, pankake was orignally selling himself as a troll for hire iirc.	[23:19]
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mircea_popescu	;;later tell peterl http://bablogs.btcscoop.com/ << seems empty ?	[23:26]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[23:26]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets blog posts	[23:26]
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Anduck	mircea_popescu: remember, the people who you call 'idiots' may be living a happier life than you	[23:28]
Anduck	so, are they idiots after all in that sense	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	im sure most of the cattle that i'm going to eat in my lifetime has also lived a pretty happy life,	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	according ot its own standards.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	the notion that cattle gets to enact standards of happiness is beyond ridoinculous.	[23:28]
Anduck	sure but its funny that many really are happy	[23:31]
Anduck	they also know it	[23:31]
mircea_popescu	so good for em.	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	krugman prolly "really is an economist", at least if you ask him.	[23:32]
Anduck	xD	[23:33]
Anduck	oh, what do ya think of him	[23:33]
Anduck	well, his bitcoin speech	[23:33]
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mircea_popescu	Anduck you mean http://trilema.com/2014/this-is-how-much-i-rule-today/ ?	[23:34]
assbot	This is how much I rule (today) pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[23:34]
Anduck	i guess i cant read that one	[23:34]
Anduck	paywall i see =(	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	funny lol. guy from the public went up to bernadotte, after wagram, "o, what did you think of the archduke's order of battle!"	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	i think it sucked, lol.	[23:37]
Anduck	hmm	[23:38]
Anduck	mircea_popescu: you know the new monero/bitcoin rpg stuff by rpietila?	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	vaguely.	[23:38]
Anduck	thoughts? will you attend	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	i will not attend.	[23:39]
Anduck	ok. as it's question hour: thoughts about bitcoin short term (1-2 years) valuation?	[23:40]
Anduck	it's good to see how long bitcoiners see these last years of development	[23:40]
*	mircea_popescu shrugs.	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	you really need to go read the logs.	[23:41]
Anduck	there's too much of logs.	[23:41]
Anduck	seriously, even you wouldn't	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	i actually do. i imagine you have nfi idea what wagram is, either, but this gives you no pause, because you're happy without, right ?	[23:42]
Anduck	not relevant but yes i've zero idea of what a wagram is	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	right. well, carry on but if possible quietly.	[23:43]
Anduck	hehe	[23:43]
Anduck	so you would value my speech here if i knew what a wagram is?	[23:44]
*	RagnarDanneskjol (~ragnardan@75-23-231-33.lightspeed.lgngca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:45]
*	assbot gives voice to RagnarDanneskjol	[23:45]
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Anduck	good. as expected	[23:46]
Anduck	just remember: this is not how the world was built	[23:46]
mircea_popescu	the world was not built by ignorant twerps. your ideas about "the world" are about as well formed as your ideas about "wagram". both are meaningless symbols to you. about one, you arbitrarily delude yourself you have something to say.	[23:47]
Anduck	fine	[23:48]
Anduck	i don't agree but im fine with it	[23:48]
mircea_popescu	now stfu and go read the logs.	[23:48]
Anduck	i guess i already stated i won't read the logs because there's too much and i've got better ways to find out what i want to find out =)	[23:49]
Anduck	doesn't make me ignorant twerp, or does it?	[23:49]
mircea_popescu	yeah, it does.	[23:49]
RagnarDanneskjol	yes it does	[23:50]
Anduck	please, give me a third "yes it does"	[23:50]
mircea_popescu	kids, you know ? tries to engage its mother on its own terms (cries). mother doesn't go for it. kid... INSISTS!!! because totally, if you ignore everything and just repeat your thing... well.. that's happiness innit.	[23:51]
*	assbot gives voice to undata	[23:54]
*	undata wonders whether gribble or freenode itself is lagging today	[23:55]
*	CryptOprah_ is now known as CryptOprah	[23:55]
mircea_popescu	freenode's been having some issues.	[23:55]
undata	ah	[23:56]
Anduck	hopefully people here think clearly :)	[23:57]
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mircea_popescu	!up sdffsd	[23:59]
-assbot-	You voiced sdffsd for 30 minutes.	[23:59]
*	assbot gives voice to sdffsd	[23:59]

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