Forum logs for 07 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'gossipd' << see 'gossip protocols', very interesting subfield in maths.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	aham	[00:02]
asciilifeform	highly recommended to anyone who took part in or enjoyed reading this thread.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	anyway, THAT is why not signed messages.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	perfect deniability, much better than forward secrecy	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	jurov ^	[00:02]
asciilifeform	still need signed hellos	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	since by very definition gestapo can't trust A B C	[00:03]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform sure, but not the same thing.	[00:03]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message	[00:04]
asciilifeform	instead of one	[00:04]
mircea_popescu	how so ?	[00:04]
asciilifeform	(wot operations still need to be signed, as well as 'hello' session negotiations.)	[00:04]
mircea_popescu	no.	[00:04]
asciilifeform	hm?	[00:04]
mircea_popescu	each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure	[00:04]
mircea_popescu	each server compiles wot list for use of its user from helos received	[00:04]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00063295 = 10.507 BTC [-]	[00:05]
*	asciilifeform marches off to thinking room to properly think about this.	[00:05]
asciilifeform	and to pet neglected pet	[00:05]
*	tryphe has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[00:12]
artifexd	Wait. Wut?	[00:15]
mircea_popescu	which part.	[00:16]
artifexd	You specifically don't want messages signed?	[00:16]
artifexd	For deniability?	[00:16]
mircea_popescu	there's no signing in there, is there ?	[00:17]
artifexd	There is not. I took that as an oversight.	[00:17]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-01-2015#966081 also.	[00:17]
assbot	Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message	[00:17]
mircea_popescu	no, it's not an oversight.	[00:17]
artifexd	When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?	[00:18]
mircea_popescu	hm ?	[00:18]
artifexd	Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.	[00:18]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[00:18]
mircea_popescu	his job to police his lists.	[00:18]
artifexd	And D is full of shit.	[00:18]
*	mike_c has quit ()	[00:18]
artifexd	What stops server A from inventing messages by B?	[00:20]
mircea_popescu	don't trust people you don't trust and so you won't have to answer unpleasant questions from people whose trust you value.	[00:20]
mircea_popescu	nothing.	[00:20]
mircea_popescu	in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C.	[00:20]
artifexd	That seems... less than ideal.	[00:20]
mircea_popescu	why ?	[00:21]
artifexd	Because we are building a new system from the ground up.	[00:21]
mircea_popescu	right.	[00:21]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[00:21]
BingoBoingo	Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance?	[00:21]
mircea_popescu	good idea that bb.	[00:21]
artifexd	Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	because it's chat.	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ?	[00:22]
artifexd	Kinda	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	than sign a contract there.	[00:23]
kakobrekla	dont chat with strangers.	[00:23]
artifexd	If by "sign" you mean "have some effing clue who just said that"	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ?	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	i can use it later.	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	in the sense your friend sayus he does.	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders.	[00:24]
BingoBoingo	for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.	[00:25]
artifexd	It would be a timestamped "No".	[00:25]
mircea_popescu	moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say.	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	artifexd so if it is.	[00:26]
BingoBoingo	http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/whistle-blower-awards-lure-wrongdoers-looking-to-score/	[00:26]
artifexd	When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.	[00:28]
artifexd	Signing messages would provide that same assurance. But automatically.	[00:28]
mircea_popescu	and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.	[00:28]
artifexd	Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key.	[00:28]
mircea_popescu	without a requirement to sign.	[00:28]
mircea_popescu	however, if you only know asciilifeform and he;'s relying my chat,	[00:28]
mircea_popescu	for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.	[00:29]
artifexd	Exactly	[00:29]
mircea_popescu	this is ideal.	[00:29]
asciilifeform	let's see if i misunderstood something.	[00:29]
asciilifeform	in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked?	[00:30]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and trilema comments are implementations.	[00:30]
asciilifeform	rather than permanent blockchain-style world record	[00:30]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well, disgorge on handshake but yea	[00:30]
asciilifeform	well then:	[00:30]
asciilifeform	let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;	[00:30]
asciilifeform	a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection	[00:31]
mircea_popescu	lol. the actual ship mircea is an old barque. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_(ship)	[00:31]
assbot	Mircea (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJOI85 )	[00:31]
asciilifeform	during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ?	[00:31]
asciilifeform	barque << haha yes, knew this	[00:31]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you still have an old list.	[00:32]
asciilifeform	worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ?	[00:32]
asciilifeform	aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc.	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	which ius no different from the current situation	[00:32]
asciilifeform	and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.	[00:32]
asciilifeform	because i am me and not him	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	if i die tomorrow who will maintain my wot ?	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	uhhh... nobody.	[00:32]
asciilifeform	but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed	[00:32]
*	copumpkin is now known as drunkplatypus	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to"	[00:32]
asciilifeform	which in this one respect is an arguable improvement over the hypothetical apparatus	[00:32]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: aha!	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	i do not see it.	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	how do you know it's not been diddled ?	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	you'd have to ask an elder or two anyway.	[00:33]
asciilifeform	that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain!	[00:33]
asciilifeform	to borrow a greenspunish,	[00:33]
asciilifeform	*greenspunism	[00:33]
asciilifeform	'those who will not' xxx 'are doomed to' yyy 'it'	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy	[00:33]
*	drunkplatypus is now known as copumpkin	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed.	[00:33]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea'	[00:34]
asciilifeform	why not cut straight to chase.	[00:34]
mircea_popescu	very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online.	[00:34]
asciilifeform	not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses.	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is.	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn.	[00:35]
asciilifeform	and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite.	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	will be honored once known. ignored meanwhiule.	[00:35]
asciilifeform	under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then	[00:36]
asciilifeform	or would have to station it shore-side somehow	[00:36]
mircea_popescu	well, if you can only net once in 2 months you can only net once in 2 months.	[00:36]
mircea_popescu	some of your stuff will be out of date.	[00:36]
asciilifeform	we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors	[00:36]
mircea_popescu	i still dun see it.	[00:36]
mircea_popescu	but anyway, relays are strength not weakness here.	[00:37]
asciilifeform	when part of mechanism, by spec and by reliable practice sans hand-holding	[00:37]
asciilifeform	think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala.	[00:37]
asciilifeform	hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above.	[00:37]
asciilifeform	('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly)	[00:38]
mircea_popescu	what's adequate for moving currency is not adequate for moving words.	[00:38]
*	devthedev (~devthedev@unaffiliated/devthedev) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:39]
asciilifeform	wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words	[00:39]
mircea_popescu	i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd	[00:40]
artifexd	So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?	[00:40]
asciilifeform	the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net	[00:40]
asciilifeform	i think it is ludicrous.	[00:40]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ?	[00:40]
asciilifeform	disappear until i get plugged back in	[00:40]
mircea_popescu	artifexd thgat it has no central servers, for one.	[00:40]
asciilifeform	which perhaps never, because atomic bomb fell on me.	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy!	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	this is just like it is now! everything!	[00:41]
asciilifeform	and what can they do with this copy?	[00:41]
asciilifeform	consult it while forming own wot ratings, informally?	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position.	[00:41]
asciilifeform	by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ?	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies.	[00:42]
asciilifeform	someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	an' shall remember you.	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat.	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	permanence is to be ensured by other means	[00:42]
asciilifeform	chat - sure	[00:42]
asciilifeform	wot ??	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	(this doesn't replace notarybot, for instance)	[00:42]
asciilifeform	if wot ratings were archived - it could.	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	anyone can archive them!	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	yourself included.	[00:43]
asciilifeform	can != will reliably	[00:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00063127 = 11.1735 BTC [-] {2}	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.	[00:43]
asciilifeform	let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ?	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.	[00:44]
asciilifeform	dead tree counts	[00:44]
asciilifeform	probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.	[00:44]
asciilifeform	a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will.	[00:45]
asciilifeform	in real time.	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	because why not ?	[00:45]
asciilifeform	because it is in a bottle.	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	present wot would benefit immensely from some dead hand cleanning as it is.	[00:46]
asciilifeform	this is actually an ancient debate in the maths-of-p2p-nets world	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.	[00:46]
asciilifeform	whether father time should forget	[00:46]
asciilifeform	and if so, how.	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it	[00:47]
mircea_popescu	once that's gone... main morte.	[00:47]
mircea_popescu	leave the earth to better, later men.	[00:47]
asciilifeform	there are obvious wins to this approach. but opens the question of what, e.g., my brother, is to do with my wotgraph once my ship goes down.	[00:47]
mircea_popescu	whatever he wants.	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	we knowthis because he is here. you, are not.	[00:48]
asciilifeform	assuming he wishes it to march on	[00:48]
asciilifeform	is he to host it on an 'obelisk' node which does nothing else but relay it ?	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	could, easily.	[00:48]
asciilifeform	or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information)	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	also could, also easily.	[00:48]
mircea_popescu	what information was lost ?	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were.	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.	[00:49]
asciilifeform	where the change propagates.	[00:49]
asciilifeform	right now this seems far easier than it will turn out to be on adult apparatus.	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	aha ?	[00:50]
asciilifeform	the 'dynamicity' of new-wot (vs classical wot) creates some very strong incentives for hooligans of all stripes	[00:50]
asciilifeform	to attempt to disrupt signal, locate mirrors	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	i still don't see there's a difference.	[00:51]
asciilifeform	to create temporary warps in the fabric of wot.	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ?	[00:51]
asciilifeform	well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it.	[00:52]
asciilifeform	i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live.	[00:52]
asciilifeform	because things that are tedious and must be done manually, tend to not get done.	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants.	[00:52]
asciilifeform	let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	why ?	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	they can cache whichever way they wish/	[00:54]
asciilifeform	not so many ways to choose from if result is to behave functionally live	[00:54]
asciilifeform	(i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves)	[00:54]
asciilifeform	in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.	[00:55]
mircea_popescu	o.O	[00:55]
asciilifeform	i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat	[00:55]
artifexd	I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.	[00:57]
asciilifeform	http://pastebin.com/w5VYjyBu << possibly very relevant	[00:57]
assbot	THE PETRIFIED WORLD (Robert Sheckley) - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1BxiUBn )	[00:57]
asciilifeform	(1971 story)	[00:57]
artifexd	Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.	[00:58]
asciilifeform	this is why i suggested chaining.	[00:59]
asciilifeform	prevents a future forged conversation stitched out of words you have uttered.	[00:59]
asciilifeform	(of signed gibblets, anyway)	[00:59]
artifexd	millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.	[01:00]
mircea_popescu	artifexd explain why you WOULD sign them.	[01:00]
asciilifeform	artifexd: next thing you know we're doing lamport clocks.	[01:00]
artifexd	Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.	[01:00]
mircea_popescu	and yes, unixtime timestamps.	[01:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11344 @ 0.00062984 = 7.1449 BTC [-]	[01:01]
artifexd	Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?	[01:01]
mircea_popescu	why would you require chat lines be signed.	[01:01]
mircea_popescu	i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.	[01:02]
artifexd	Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.	[01:02]
mircea_popescu	you can call bullshit in the gossipd as well.	[01:02]
mircea_popescu	that's provided.	[01:02]
asciilifeform	let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key	[01:02]
mircea_popescu	if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.	[01:02]
mircea_popescu	by signign it.	[01:02]
asciilifeform	how is anything originating in my machine to leave my node without being signed ?	[01:03]
artifexd	I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.	[01:03]
mircea_popescu	artifexd you have SOME assurance.	[01:03]
mircea_popescu	if you know bob, this is cryptographic.	[01:03]
mircea_popescu	if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway.	[01:03]
asciilifeform	^ not entirely	[01:04]
artifexd	I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.	[01:04]
asciilifeform	you can still know that bob(today) is (or is not) same as bob(next month)	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	right.	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	which is EXACTLY as it is anyway	[01:04]
asciilifeform	not necessarily same person, but same key (e.g., is same bourbaki)	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform herp.	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	so you can still know... nothing much.	[01:05]
asciilifeform	arguing that this can be useful information	[01:05]
artifexd	Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.	[01:05]
asciilifeform	in some truly perverse cases	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	anything can be useful information.	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you.	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	ANYWAY.	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust	[01:05]
mircea_popescu	just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers.	[01:05]
*	asciilifeform did not imagine that there were.	[01:06]
mircea_popescu	i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.	[01:06]
artifexd	Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.	[01:06]
mircea_popescu	the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest.	[01:06]
asciilifeform	'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston.	[01:06]
artifexd	Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month)	[01:07]
asciilifeform	nooo	[01:07]
asciilifeform	trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word.	[01:07]
artifexd	I mean as in trust the message	[01:07]
asciilifeform	please don't put it on life support, it needs to die	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	artifexd hardly if that.	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys.	[01:08]
artifexd	signed messages allow someone to build an identity	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	sure, they do.	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	but more's the point : signed messages allow the world to build an adversative identity of someone.	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	this is pointedly against the purpose of chat.	[01:08]
artifexd	As you have preached in the past, the identity built over time, secured by wot, has value.	[01:09]
artifexd	Take away the ability to build an identity and what's left?	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot.	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	there's a great progression at work there.	[01:09]
artifexd	The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	such ability is not taken away.	[01:09]
artifexd	Could be him. Could not. Who knows.	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	it does, if the sender is in your list.	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	it does not, if he is not.	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	this is correct.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	because in point of fact ddddd is noone in particular.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	they even say this, the various random guys the wind blows in. "who are you ?" "nobody in particular".	[01:11]
thestringpuller	!s gribble	[01:11]
assbot	15680 results for 'gribble' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gribble	[01:11]
artifexd	How do you imagine bootstrapping this thing?	[01:12]
artifexd	Do we get in here, ident, and pass around ip addresses?	[01:12]
artifexd	Is that the start?	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	pretty much	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	you know, just like "up me please" but not centrally maintained.	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	just ask your friends.	[01:13]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: what would the result of someone forking the WoT be?	[01:13]
*	Phraust has quit (Quit: Phraust)	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	a wot fork ?	[01:14]
thestringpuller	yah	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	right.	[01:14]
thestringpuller	altgribble becomes hitler and makes his own db clones from nanotubes	[01:14]
thestringpuller	some "people" start using it	[01:14]
thestringpuller	but nanotube never comes back	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	what's wrong with using an alt wot ?	[01:14]
thestringpuller	or comes back months later (super worst case)	[01:14]
thestringpuller	that's my question	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	if you trust whoever maintains it... go ahead.	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	i have nfi who even runs altgribble. who is it ?	[01:15]
thestringpuller	well altgribble was generatlized example	[01:15]
artifexd	After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful	[01:15]
artifexd	shit"?	[01:15]
thestringpuller	mexican_gribble etc	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	how does one get into l1 atm ?	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	l2*	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us,	[01:17]
artifexd	You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged.	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	but it'll look like obama[via lampelina] to kako. who can then go gtfo wtf you smokin beich ?!	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	artifexd you gotta get an up before you can voice. eh ?	[01:18]
kakobrekla	actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this.	[01:18]
artifexd	Yeah.	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla sorry	[01:19]
artifexd	Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	no.	[01:20]
thestringpuller	hanbot: nice qntra submission	[01:20]
artifexd	No?	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	we were discussing why it is good, and it turns out it isn't particularly, and so parsimony dictates it stays out.	[01:20]
kakobrekla	no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with.	[01:21]
artifexd	Preventing some douche from Bumfuck, Idaho from impersonating your hard built identity "isn't particularly good"?	[01:22]
mircea_popescu	artifexd this prevention is guaranteed by design as is.	[01:22]
mircea_popescu	he can only impersonate you to folk that don't know you.	[01:22]
artifexd	He can only impersonate me to people who don't have an absolutely direct connection to me.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	or care to get one or know how.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	so what if it's the wrong numbers ?	[01:23]
artifexd	That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea.	[01:24]
mircea_popescu	for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D.	[01:24]
mircea_popescu	artifexd the computer wouldn't know.	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.	[01:25]
artifexd	Huh? Of course it would.	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	computer only finds through a direct connection.	[01:25]
artifexd	I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	according to whom ?	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	bam.	[01:26]
artifexd	What does that have to do with anything>?	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	everything ?	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	it's exactly the scenario you're proposing.	[01:27]
artifexd	Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key.	[01:28]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into	[01:28]
mircea_popescu	artifexd that's entirely up to me.	[01:28]
kakobrekla	yeah but you are just weird like that.	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	s/anyone/everyone	[01:29]
artifexd	Sure. If you have two keys in your wot and you want to give them both the same name. Knock yourself out.	[01:29]
artifexd	But you have to make the choice to be confusing.	[01:29]
asciilifeform	here's an observation:	[01:29]
artifexd	The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities.	[01:30]
asciilifeform	i am not presently authenticated via 'gribble'	[01:30]
mircea_popescu	artifexd dubious at best.	[01:30]
asciilifeform	how many of the folks present are ready to believe that this 'asciilifeform' is the same animal they are accustomed to enduring the company of in #b-a ?	[01:30]
asciilifeform	and why?	[01:30]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i can tell, you sound just like him.	[01:30]
asciilifeform	well sure.	[01:30]
asciilifeform	but this is an 'informal bug-ridden implementation' of message signing.	[01:31]
mircea_popescu	what, you just bathed in the same bath twice ?	[01:31]
asciilifeform	when i grunt on the impalement pole, i will probably not be able to deny these words either, to the inquisitor, for the same reason	[01:31]
asciilifeform	'you sound just like him!'	[01:31]
artifexd	dubious? huh? how? the maths are the maths.	[01:31]
asciilifeform	hence the 'adverse identity' thing	[01:31]
asciilifeform	even if we have no sigs	[01:31]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. I. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet.	[01:31]
mircea_popescu	you do not wish to make preet any gifts.	[01:31]
asciilifeform	sigs are pure win, for a creature like myself, just about everything that comes out of my mouth is 'signed' enough for inquisitor!	[01:31]
asciilifeform	why not sign for friends?	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	which is why this is an ircd fork rather than whatever, just apt-get it.	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	there is no such thing as "sign for friends" outside of the model detailed in my spec.	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	that's what that is. "signed, but for friends only"	[01:32]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00079058 = 1.5812 BTC [-] {5}	[01:32]
asciilifeform	the only possible solution to preet signing as asciilifeform, or mircea_popescu, or whoever, is to pull the pin when he comes uninvited.	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	mno.	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court.	[01:33]
mircea_popescu	"and then you said so and so" "um how you know this ?" "from node C" "well it lied to you"	[01:33]
mircea_popescu	"no it didn't!!1" "case dismissed" "but yur honor!!1"	[01:33]
asciilifeform	imho it is far from a sure thing that this will so much as add one drop of sweat to a usg inquisitor's work	[01:33]
artifexd	Your argument is that you WANT deniability?	[01:33]
mircea_popescu	artifexd my argument is that deniability must be baked in or not had.	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	and for chat it must be had. and so... it must be baked in.	[01:34]
artifexd	Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was.	[01:34]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there is another way to bake it in.	[01:34]
BingoBoingo	Even preet loses cases	[01:35]
mircea_popescu	artifexd it isn't ?	[01:35]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: consider: a subclass of private message where you ask a friend to pass along, to the 'room', some words.	[01:35]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform aha ?	[01:35]
asciilifeform	explicitly proclaimed as 'not his own'	[01:35]
asciilifeform	the ears - can choose to believe, or not, naturally	[01:35]
asciilifeform	but this is inescapable	[01:35]
mircea_popescu	i don't follow.	[01:35]
asciilifeform	say mircea_popescu wishes to deniably utter the words 'brezhnev sucks'. he then asks me to utter, 'my friend, who wishes to stay unmarked, wishes to inform the ladies and gentlemen of this network that brezhnev sucks'	[01:36]
mircea_popescu	artifexd suppose you don't reg your name, and someone comes in as artifexd and says things. should you be forced somehow to say if this is the case or not ?	[01:36]
asciilifeform	we thus have a degree of deniability, about the same as in the case of no messages carrying signatures	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i do not wish to stay unmarked.	[01:37]
asciilifeform	(contrieved example)	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	and i don't want "a degree" of deniability.	[01:37]
asciilifeform	as i reckon, same degree as the unsigned-message scenario	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends.	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	which is exactly how speech has functioned, since the dawn of time, to create what is known as the free world.	[01:38]
asciilifeform	'absolutes' are tricky.	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	high time computers conform.	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	not with the spec as given, imo.	[01:38]
asciilifeform	let's work out, using spec as given in mircea_popescu's article: what does an inquisitor know about a particular utterance	[01:38]
asciilifeform	if he were to put a node in his pocket	[01:38]
asciilifeform	or a series of nodes	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	okay.	[01:38]
asciilifeform	to how many possible pubkeys (and presumably, but not automagically, people) can he narrow down the 'brezhnev sucks' ?	[01:39]
asciilifeform	(typically)	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	i dun see how that'd be answered.	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.	[01:40]
asciilifeform	that's what 'deniability' means, unless i catastrophically misunderstand the concept	[01:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00062617 = 21.916 BTC [-] {2}	[01:40]
mircea_popescu	well, not how i understand it at any rate.	[01:40]
mircea_popescu	deniability is "you X" "no."	[01:41]
*	asciilifeform is transported to grade school mentally	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."	[01:41]
asciilifeform	teacher: 'it was one of you boys'	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	"get something substantial and bother me again"	[01:42]
artifexd	How many connections to other servers do you imagine that you will have? You as in you mircea_popescu.	[01:42]
artifexd	10? 60? 2000?	[01:43]
artifexd	1?	[01:43]
*	asciilifeform gets a distinct impression that mircea_popescu is still thinking of the adversary as being bound by laws, courts, procedures of evidence-gathering.	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands.	[01:43]
*	badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly.	[01:43]
*	asciilifeform rather thinks that this is a military matter, where adversary can afford to ransack and search 100 houses but not 100,000, and hence his gathering bits of info - matters	[01:43]
*	paxtoncamaro91 (~paxtoncam@unaffiliated/paxtoncamaro91) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.	[01:44]
*	asciilifeform would much like to hear more about this later	[01:44]
mircea_popescu	ie, the police state only exists now and again, when the state of technology is poor enough.	[01:44]
asciilifeform	naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit)	[01:45]
asciilifeform	that will have to be re-shaped into something quite else (his words) when enemy is dead	[01:45]
mircea_popescu	artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections.	[01:45]
mircea_popescu	then again, the number of people people know is, from memory 1-200.	[01:45]
mircea_popescu	admitting everyone's awake at the same time.	[01:46]
*	asciilifeform still can't escape the feeling that hypothetical apparatus is a weapon, at least for the time being, that must be sharp enough to penetrate a particular tough grizzly hide if it is to carry on to being whatever it was meant to be...	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection.	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing.	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	since we're fixing ircd, might as well actually do it.	[01:46]
asciilifeform	at the very least, one ought to have the option of (unobtrusively!) signing every line	[01:47]
asciilifeform	i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a.	[01:47]
mircea_popescu	i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing.	[01:48]
asciilifeform	in no small part because i cannot really picture my impalement or reprieve as hinging on attribution of what i've said	[01:48]
artifexd	I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately,	[01:48]
artifexd	cool. Keep the connection. If not, dump it.	[01:48]
asciilifeform	why is it necessary to involve ip addresses ?	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform gotta route packets somehow.	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure.	[01:49]
artifexd	As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)	[01:49]
asciilifeform	let's say i communicate over courier.	[01:49]
asciilifeform	what is my 'ip address' then ?	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	spec was simpler on the assumption that since the helo package is keyed to the supposed key of the server, there's no need to challenge	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	if hje can decrypt it's him alright.	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it touches the network somewhere.	[01:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19498 @ 0.00061581 = 12.0071 BTC [-]	[01:49]
artifexd	Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have.	[01:50]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: when i sign my 'hello' i will have no idea where it will enter the network.	[01:50]
artifexd	I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.	[01:51]
asciilifeform	it is quite impossible to sign your ip address if you communicate via courier who may stop at one of sixteen ports.	[01:51]
artifexd	asciilifeform: You have to have some way of receiving return messages, right?	[01:51]
asciilifeform	not necessarily	[01:51]
asciilifeform	it could be my final message as boat goes down.	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform then put it in a pastebin	[01:52]
asciilifeform	sent - in bottle.	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	and someone will link it.	[01:52]
asciilifeform	out of band?	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[01:52]
asciilifeform	why is this necessary?	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network.	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	so you're going to have to carry the shoe horn yourself.	[01:52]
asciilifeform	by way of a considerably simpler design	[01:53]
asciilifeform	(unitary hello+signature packet)	[01:53]
artifexd	Sure. I have no issue with that.	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	uh.	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	the helo as it is contains some signed material.	[01:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00064399 = 6.7619 BTC [+] {2}	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	what would you sign ?	[01:53]
*	asciilifeform will, likely, happily play with whatever apparatus you folks come up with, but wishes that the choice be an informed one on the part of the implementers, rather than happenstance.	[01:54]
mircea_popescu	o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this.	[01:55]
artifexd	Sign whatever you want. As long as the timestamp is recent.	[01:55]
*	mircea_popescu waves.	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	artifexd so how is it different from the project you thouight it was ?	[01:55]
asciilifeform	artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274 << basic summary of the thing i was mainly on about.	[01:56]
assbot	Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.	[01:56]
artifexd	I wasn't imagining so many direct connections.	[01:56]
mircea_popescu	artifexd well, dunbar's number as a general rule.	[01:56]
artifexd	I had imagined few connections, more routing.	[01:56]
mircea_popescu	should fit on consumer box.	[01:56]
mircea_popescu	if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem	[01:56]
artifexd	I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	this would fit, if you cared to make it fit	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	currently therte's 140 people here.	[01:58]
*	asciilifeform also formed this impression.	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	so... yes.	[01:58]
artifexd	I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	nah. too easy to attack that graph.	[01:59]
asciilifeform	who among those present, other than mircea_popescu, wishes to be impersonateable (deniable) by default ?	[01:59]
artifexd	Not I	[01:59]
asciilifeform	not 'democratizing', just probing waters	[01:59]
mircea_popescu	what's the big deal ?	[01:59]
mircea_popescu	i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues.	[01:59]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: and you like it ?	[01:59]
mircea_popescu	i have enough experience with it to know it does exactly nothing.	[02:00]
asciilifeform	i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed	[02:00]
artifexd	I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated.	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform believed is one thing.	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number.	[02:00]
artifexd	asciilifeform: That is my desire as well	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	it won't be believed (meaningfully).	[02:01]
asciilifeform	will be believed by sufficiently many otherwise-clueful folks	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	what people who have no clue believe resting squarely outside not of your control, but THIS WORLD.	[02:01]
asciilifeform	because signatures are so rare.	[02:01]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact	[02:01]
asciilifeform	if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter.	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	like in the case of rg ?	[02:02]
mircea_popescu	this is an illusion.	[02:02]
artifexd	What is "preet"?	[02:02]
asciilifeform	artifexd: an infamous judge where i live	[02:02]
asciilifeform	artifexd: 'kangaroo court'	[02:02]
asciilifeform	artifexd: he specializes in high-profile show trials. quite like roland freisler (top judge in 3rd reich)	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	artifexd the roland freisler of our times, preet bharara. crown's prosecutor for southern ny / rico conspiracy lynchpin.	[02:03]
artifexd	ok	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	lmao that sounded like a divisive question.	[02:03]
scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/devianttwo-aka-robert-christophers-december-arrest-flies-under-the-radar/	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	o.O	[02:04]
asciilifeform	ergo he did not play ball.	[02:04]
asciilifeform	at some point, somewhere.	[02:04]
asciilifeform	so his chain was reeled in.	[02:04]
mircea_popescu	i dunno, he was kinda dumb.	[02:04]
mircea_popescu	woudn't surprise me if legit pedo.	[02:04]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2014#749841	[02:05]
assbot	Logged on 09-07-2014 00:04:59; asciilifeform: pierce << ideal example of the animal described on one of mircea_popescu's essays - he could be packed into prison for life, any time, based on what's in his file. so he does as instructed.	[02:05]
asciilifeform	not even necessary that he not be 'legit paedo'	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	aite.	[02:05]
asciilifeform	but parsimonious hypothesis, imho, is that he was a chained, leashed paedo.	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	seems to me on the contrary, it's just "random redneck doing various shit online like scams and pedophilia got nicked"	[02:06]
*	asciilifeform laboured under an impression that 'actual paedo' is a rather uncommon thing, and hence their over-representation in sc4mz0rd0m is something in need of a logical explanation	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	guy had a scamrecord a mile long, and always dumb shit like https://bitcointa.lk/threads/devianttwo-scammer.122455/	[02:07]
assbot	Devianttwo SCAMMER \| Bitcointa.lk ... ( http://bit.ly/13ZsFuM )	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform actual pedo irl yes. among the online scum that makes up a good chunk of the "bitcoin community" on places like forums etc, common enough.	[02:08]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: earlier link concerned my working hypothesis as to why.	[02:08]
asciilifeform	(it being, they get 'annointed' by handlers specifically for being thus malleable)	[02:08]
mircea_popescu	mebbe.	[02:08]
mircea_popescu	doubt it tho, seeing how many they are and how ignominously they labour.	[02:08]
asciilifeform	there is the added difficulty of everyone and anyone in usg-dom being 'a paedo' retroactively on the mere request of a preet.	[02:10]
asciilifeform	вредители.	[02:10]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: is it merely my puny brain, but i still don't grasp the 'signed-default is bad because preet can steal a key.' if preet gets a hold of my key, he may as well have put a bullet through my hide, stuffed the corpse, and proceeded to live on as it	[02:17]
asciilifeform	signed gossipd or not.	[02:17]
mircea_popescu	for my curiosity, people who run torrents : how many connections is common ? 10 ? 20 ? 40 ? 80 ? 160 ?	[02:17]
asciilifeform	depends on torrent for what.	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not because "preet can steal a key"	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	i just meant, generally. i dun care for what, trying to see how this works in practice.	[02:18]
artifexd	The torrents that I have run get 15-20 connections	[02:18]
asciilifeform	just strikes me as a peculiar retreat from the whole 'let's bring an end to eternal september' thing	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	it's exactly that tho!	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	it actually puts an end to it.	[02:19]
asciilifeform	how?	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	suppose you're an average derp. what do you do ?	[02:19]
asciilifeform	as it is, you're relying on the next hop node's operator to sign your words.	[02:19]
asciilifeform	watch tv until die ?	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	problem solved, september ended.	[02:19]
mircea_popescu	i meant, what do you do to gossipd obvbiously.	[02:20]
asciilifeform	hm	[02:20]
artifexd	!s gossipd	[02:20]
assbot	0 results for 'gossipd' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gossipd	[02:20]
asciilifeform	cajole a 'l33t3r' friend to give you an 'in', perhaps	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	artifexd i ended up referring to your project as that.	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform then you piss me off, i frown at your friend, you're out.	[02:20]
asciilifeform	what did 'derps' do in 1991 ?	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	you made it 3 days.	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	now what ?	[02:20]
asciilifeform	this is the ideal working of the scenario, yes	[02:20]
mircea_popescu	ok, i frown at your friend, he demures, i delink him, you both are out.	[02:21]
mircea_popescu	2 derps, 3 days.	[02:21]
asciilifeform	in practice, derp can often masquerade as simply an underenthusiastic or overworked 'actual person' for a spell.	[02:21]
mircea_popescu	ok...	[02:21]
mircea_popescu	in practice derps never manage this, if we're to go by history, but anyway.	[02:21]
asciilifeform	just recalling various guests in #b-a, and how long it took each to work his (often her) way out of the alimentary canal	[02:21]
mircea_popescu	who, specifically ?	[02:22]
*	asciilifeform digs log	[02:22]
asciilifeform	saffron	[02:22]
asciilifeform	?	[02:22]
mircea_popescu	as far as i recall, for as far as my own chatlog is concerned, it took them exactly an hour longer than it took me to decide it's enough.	[02:22]
asciilifeform	indian candy	[02:22]
mircea_popescu	now, why shouldn't this be the situation to everyone ?	[02:22]
mircea_popescu	i wouldn't mind seeing either of those.	[02:22]
asciilifeform	merely examples of people who took weeks, rather than days	[02:22]
asciilifeform	aha but walked off rather than killfiled	[02:23]
mircea_popescu	was thinking more like xmj and his ilk.	[02:23]
asciilifeform	aha right	[02:23]
asciilifeform	better example	[02:23]
asciilifeform	or, what if herr pankkake had made things more difficult by slowly doing... his thing, rather than swapping uniforms in one fell swoop	[02:23]
mircea_popescu	i dun see how any of these are serious avenues to attack gossipd.	[02:24]
mircea_popescu	literally, all it takes is a one line edit.	[02:24]
*	devthedev has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[02:25]
asciilifeform	not so much 'attacks', but i for one was hoping to see this experiment as a beginning of the 'wot internet'	[02:25]
mircea_popescu	so it is.	[02:25]
mircea_popescu	imo, quite exactly.	[02:25]
asciilifeform	where eventually derps will not be able to send a packet, period.	[02:25]
mircea_popescu	but it's EXACTLY what it is!	[02:25]
asciilifeform	not if individual quanta aren't signed	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	they still need a friend to let them in.	[02:26]
asciilifeform	in mircea_popescu's current scheme, they still are signed, i'll point out. but ad-hoc, by the next hop node	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	you understand this ? nobody can police a list of 2bn ip addresses.	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	anyone can police the 200 people he himself knows.	[02:26]
asciilifeform	keys	[02:26]
asciilifeform	not people. or ip addresses	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	same thing.	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	blacklisting doesn't work, and whitelisting should be done locally, and responsibly.	[02:27]
*	asciilifeform does not disagree with this at all	[02:27]
mircea_popescu	but you disagree with the implementation of ewxactly this ?	[02:27]
asciilifeform	just not really grasping why we need the 'deniability' thing.	[02:28]
artifexd	nor I	[02:28]
asciilifeform	it seems to fly in the face of better-living-through-crypto	[02:29]
mircea_popescu	it's odd because to me it seems exactly opposite.	[02:29]
mircea_popescu	as in, why add clunk that actually harms and hinders, except to perpetuate what we generally agree is a harmful meme.	[02:30]
asciilifeform	how is message-is-standalong-quantum-that-traverses-the-net-on-its-authors-signatures-merits added clunk ?	[02:30]
mircea_popescu	excactly like that.	[02:30]
asciilifeform	*standalone	[02:30]
artifexd	Other than some extra bytes, how is it clunk? How does it harm or hinder?	[02:31]
mircea_popescu	ok, let me try and make the whole story.	[02:31]
mircea_popescu	currently : 1. friend to friend relations are entirely cryptographically secured. 2. unknown-to-unknown relations are not secured, and must proceed through a friend of either party to even happen.	[02:32]
mircea_popescu	what you propose : 1. friend to friend and unknown to unknown relations are the same thing.	[02:32]
*	asciilifeform is at a loss to see how this follows	[02:32]
artifexd	Uh... no.	[02:32]
mircea_popescu	this harms because : it gives unknowns a weight they should not have ; it removes the incentive for users to police at their local level ; it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs that they had no business in.	[02:33]
mircea_popescu	anmd there's plenty more, but srsly... how much is needed.	[02:33]
asciilifeform	incidentally, in no holy book is it written that a pubkey is readily pinnable on a particular creature walking this earth	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[02:34]
asciilifeform	one can have 'anonymity' or 'deniability' or whatnot, as commonly imagined, at the same time as signed-everything	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	and when you say no what do you mean no.	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not naturally.	[02:34]
artifexd	It doesn't give weight to unknowns. It gives continuity do unknowns should they desire it.	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	artifexd that is weight.	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	the existence of unknowns should be entirely at the mercy of the knowns. no exceptions and no way out.	[02:34]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: by what mechanism do 'unknowns' transmogrify into 'knowns' in your cosmography ?	[02:35]
mircea_popescu	by whatever mechanism anyone chooses to use.	[02:35]
mircea_popescu	THEY have no power,	[02:35]
mircea_popescu	which is to say no obligatory mechanism exists.	[02:35]
artifexd	No. It is continuity. I assign weight to what they say by my judgement. They assign continuity to what they say by signing it.	[02:35]
mircea_popescu	artifexd it is not up to them. it is up to you.	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	the moment you add them to your list, they have continuity.	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	before that , they are ephemereal.	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	not their option. yours.	[02:36]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: at present time, an 'unknown' can generate a pgp key and carry on 'continuity' with it over whatever channel. we can't exactly prevent it	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	because we don't work for the group here. we work for the individual.	[02:36]
asciilifeform	nor have any good reason to try	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this is a problem	[02:36]
artifexd	it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs << while true, I don't see the issue with it	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	it is not an advantage.	[02:36]
asciilifeform	and here is where i'm puzzled	[02:36]
asciilifeform	how not advantage	[02:36]
mircea_popescu	artifexd i do. it's the equivalent of making a weirdo reality where anyone who eavesdrops also has a recording device.	[02:37]
mircea_popescu	none of their fuckinbg business. if they weren't invited to participate they can not RELY on the discussion.	[02:37]
mircea_popescu	not to the detriment o the participants, in any case.	[02:37]
asciilifeform	but, carrying on with the analogy, recording machines exist.	[02:37]
asciilifeform	this is like a late-medieval knight wishing that cannon had not existed.	[02:37]
asciilifeform	fact is, they do	[02:38]
mircea_popescu	no. making it not exist.	[02:38]
mircea_popescu	fact is, they only do if you wish to implement them. i do not.	[02:38]
mircea_popescu	i don't see much has improved since the recording machine era. do you ?	[02:38]
asciilifeform	if specifically aiming for anonymity, deniability, one ends up designing a widget akin to 'tor'	[02:38]
asciilifeform	is this the intended shape ?	[02:38]
mircea_popescu	this specifically aims for reconstructing sane chat, online.	[02:39]
asciilifeform	i won't argue that a working 'tor' would not have its uses, but it is a very different animal from an 'adult' rebirth of internet circa 1989	[02:39]
mircea_popescu	rather than some conveniently diddled , horrible implementation designed for the needs of the nsa	[02:39]
mircea_popescu	(more generally, of the state)	[02:39]
*	asciilifeform sees the genuine dilemma here. but sees it as a dilemma, not an open-and-shut case in favour of soft-anonymity	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	do tell.	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	i dun see any sort of dilemma.	[02:40]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu does not like the notion of nsa goon having a non-deniable tape of anything he catches. (i don't much, either...) asciilifeform does not like that it is generally customary to speak unsigned, and thereby nsa goon can put words into his mouth, and a certain number of people will believe them	[02:41]
mircea_popescu	what the clueless "believe" can not ever be your concern.	[02:41]
mircea_popescu	it is folly to even consider this point. focus on what is within your control.	[02:41]
asciilifeform	it is when they lead me to the electric chair	[02:41]
mircea_popescu	not even then.	[02:41]
mircea_popescu	a screening of "a man for all seasons" is in order here.	[02:42]
asciilifeform	until the magic dawn when the last idiot is strangled with the guts of the last scammer, there will be ones who believe the crap.	[02:42]
mircea_popescu	quite exceptional walk through the very points involved.	[02:42]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that is neither here nor there.	[02:42]
mircea_popescu	fundamentally your argument reduces to a deep seated "all peoples matter"	[02:43]
asciilifeform	how ?	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	to the tune of monty pytrhon's every sperm is sacred. no, they do not.	[02:43]
asciilifeform	this inference is perplexing. i don't see how it follows.	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform because whythe fuck do you care what some people you doin't know say on any topic ?	[02:43]
asciilifeform	how does a bomzh, stinking in the street, who happens to have generated a pgp key, 'matter' ?	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	well since you're concerned with what he might say or believe, it seems he does.	[02:44]
asciilifeform	i'm concerned only in the particular corner case that he is actually my friend, who has been reduced to that condition by malefactors, but still remains in possession of his key.	[02:44]
mircea_popescu	i do not care what "buts" and "ifs" you add.	[02:45]
mircea_popescu	what remains is... you are concerned.	[02:45]
asciilifeform	i'd say 'generic bum' and 'mircea stripped of his clothing and cast adrift in shanghai' are different scenario, no ?	[02:45]
mircea_popescu	so how is this germane ?	[02:45]
mircea_popescu	obviously, if we're connected, you know my key.	[02:45]
mircea_popescu	at issue is your proposal to make this a reality for people you don't know.	[02:46]
asciilifeform	nope. i fully understand that the latter is neither possible nor desirable	[02:46]
mircea_popescu	so then what is the dilemma ?	[02:46]
asciilifeform	'who signs'	[02:46]
mircea_popescu	you know my key, you directly verify my client is signing correctly, what is keft ?	[02:47]
mircea_popescu	left*	[02:47]
asciilifeform	in the scheme as presently described, your client is also signing (for the record of the hypothetical nsa goon, among others) a fairly arbitrary set of messages.	[02:47]
mircea_popescu	it is not signing them, no.	[02:47]
mircea_popescu	it is merely passing them along.	[02:48]
asciilifeform	it signs the session whereby they are given right to travel the net	[02:48]
mircea_popescu	"this is what i heard"	[02:48]
asciilifeform	well, yes	[02:48]
mircea_popescu	that, it does. but it makes no representation they are from me.	[02:48]
mircea_popescu	in fact, it speciically says they are not.	[02:48]
asciilifeform	and what is the intended mechanism for propagating a message which -does- make this claim ?	[02:48]
asciilifeform	laborious external signature, as at present time ?	[02:49]
mircea_popescu	for instance.	[02:49]
mircea_popescu	or, if you prefer, elevating the source to the rank of a connect.	[02:49]
mircea_popescu	thereby doing it all automatically.	[02:49]
asciilifeform	please briefly describe 'rank of connect'	[02:49]
mircea_popescu	the same relation as between you and me, in the scenario.	[02:49]
mircea_popescu	you have his key in the initfile, and so on.	[02:49]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the tidbit that escapes me is how you came upon the idea that default-signed would empower, rather than lower into pederasty, the 'anonymous derp'	[02:51]
mircea_popescu	well that's the clou of the entire thing now innit.	[02:51]
asciilifeform	aha	[02:51]
asciilifeform	if i can grasp this, perhaps it will all make sense to my head.	[02:52]
mircea_popescu	i think i explained it half a dozen different ways, to exhaustion, but am at a loss as to why what seems obvious is not communicating itself.	[02:52]
mircea_popescu	let's go the other way. why do you think it would so lower them ?	[02:52]
asciilifeform	did i misunderstand, or did you say earlier that it would be a good thing if the street bomzh could not use pgp ?	[02:52]
asciilifeform	(and gain continuity thereby)	[02:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00061581 = 2.2785 BTC [-]	[02:52]
mircea_popescu	ok, let's work a different way. let us compare two scenarios.	[02:52]
mircea_popescu	in both cases, we are discussing user Panopticon, who sees all and says nothing. now, in spec as is, it is true that user P will know... nothing. correct ? whereas in your proposed spec, he would know... everything. correct ?	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	how is giving the bum EVERYTHING lowering him in any sense ?	[02:53]
asciilifeform	everything ?	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	and whence and wherefore should he have anything but nothing ?	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	well yes. all the signed chats of everyone = everything. absolutely as 1 = 1.	[02:54]
asciilifeform	if he truly knows 'everything', he can unmask the 'deniable' speakers likewise.	[02:54]
artifexd	I guess I like the default sign because I see myself as Panopticon. I don't talk much. But I watch and listen. Default-sign helps me.	[02:54]
asciilifeform	no need for signatures.	[02:54]
mircea_popescu	artifexd you might discover it hurts you, much like the low level usg employee who thinks the fed helps him would soon discover his lot would be better without that bit.	[02:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform how ?	[02:55]
asciilifeform	if he truly knows 'everything' he can elementarily determine which earthly carcass crapped out which words.	[02:55]
mircea_popescu	not so.	[02:55]
mircea_popescu	for all he knows, they're all in cahoots, sending him lulz.	[02:55]
mircea_popescu	he can not determine this.	[02:56]
asciilifeform	presumably some earthly not-quite-everything was meant, rather than a 'divine' Everything	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	everything in the network duh.	[02:56]
asciilifeform	then mircea_popescu is correct	[02:56]
asciilifeform	hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative.	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	more importantly, hitler IS a lot more in that than he would be in this.	[02:57]
asciilifeform	but if we actually want to go in that direction, the logical result is a gadget like 'tor', with bounces, mixes, etc.	[02:57]
asciilifeform	rather than lukewarm step in that direction, no?	[02:57]
mircea_popescu	this is paid for, somewhere, by someone. who is paying but me ? even if i can't show where it leeches me, it does. why should i ?	[02:57]
mircea_popescu	there's nothing lukewarm about this.	[02:57]
mircea_popescu	it is, unlike the tor etc bs, actually efficient.	[02:57]
asciilifeform	just seems like an attempt to build a stove-refrigerator hybrid. yes, can be done, yes, in some sense these are complementary machines. but - challenge.	[02:59]
mircea_popescu	nothing of the kind.	[02:59]
asciilifeform	(combination of 'tor'-like apparatus with 'wot', in particular)	[02:59]
mircea_popescu	the tor bs is an attempt to "fix" in implementation problems to whose existence it not merely contributes, but moore! whose existence it actually postulates.	[02:59]
mircea_popescu	it is fundamentally broken and will never work exactly because it simply presumes the adversary wins.	[02:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5070 @ 0.00062134 = 3.1502 BTC [+]	[03:00]
asciilifeform	speaking of the 'platonic' tor, rather than the cthonian horror of the actual proggy	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	wheras as proposed, gossipd makes the enemy outright impossible.	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	not even deliberately, just, as a side effect.	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform even the platonic.	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	structure it and i'll show you how it assumes it.	[03:00]
asciilifeform	well, 'platonic tor' is simply that a large number of people agree to 'play non-broken telephone' between me and a destination.	[03:00]
asciilifeform	thereby obscuring the existence of the conversation, within certain limits.	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	a destination you know nothing about.	[03:01]
asciilifeform	a destination you may or may not know something about out-of-band	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	so the fundamental statement is "the group is more important than the individual"	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	and you wish to know why it is broken by design ?	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	that's why.	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	once that's in there, of course fucking nsa.	[03:01]
asciilifeform	(e.g., i may know that it is a machine at ip p.q.r.s with rsa pubkey K)	[03:01]
asciilifeform	well yes. nsa comes inevitably in because you are trusting three strangers whom you know nothing about, to form the circuit.	[03:02]
mircea_popescu	derp.	[03:02]
mircea_popescu	now apply the same analysis to gossipd.	[03:02]
asciilifeform	gossipd proposes a scheme more akin to the traditional 'cell' organizations of revolutions, etc	[03:03]
asciilifeform	(i dare suggest that a node be referred to as 'cell', for extra lulz)	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	historically, the closer a relation, the more direct.	[03:03]
asciilifeform	aha	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	this is not some sort of random contrivance of boredom.	[03:03]
asciilifeform	it is the inevitable construction that stands.	[03:04]
mircea_popescu	this is specifically because, historically, the individual is more important than the group	[03:04]
asciilifeform	like bridge truss.	[03:04]
asciilifeform	(triangles)	[03:04]
mircea_popescu	which is how humanity managed to inch its way to this sad time when it's about to kill itself a thousand different ways	[03:04]
mircea_popescu	all born the same stupid place.	[03:04]
asciilifeform	which, in this context, place ?	[03:05]
mircea_popescu	"group is more important than individual"	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	a mental place.	[03:06]
asciilifeform	ah that.	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	myeah	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	heck, haven't felt so alive in weeks.	[03:06]
asciilifeform	srsly ?	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[03:07]
*	asciilifeform pictured mircea_popescu breaking keyboards, etc	[03:07]
artifexd	"How many times do I have to explain this shit!"	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	so did the pets peeking in online. but no.	[03:07]
artifexd	This pretty much prevents one-way relationships, right?	[03:08]
artifexd	If you and I are online, unless we are both in each other's list, we will never direct-connect.	[03:08]
mircea_popescu	this part is finnicky. it shouldn't, ideally, but i don't see how it could be done.	[03:08]
artifexd	We have to both agree to trust each other.	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	right.	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	more importantly, connections on the internet don't work unilaterally.	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	so im guessing this is going to be forced by the medium.	[03:09]
artifexd	They do via UDP	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	if we were onm a purely broadcast network, it'd work right	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	but udp is hard.	[03:10]
artifexd	No argument	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	im not entirely sure it is actually to any purpose important.	[03:11]
asciilifeform	udp is trivial!	[03:12]
asciilifeform	damnit.	[03:12]
asciilifeform	tcp is hard.	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	tcp is hard to employ usefully.	[03:12]
artifexd	upd is trivial for sending information if you don't care if they received it	[03:12]
artifexd	If you want a back and forth connection, you end up duplicating tcp yourself.	[03:12]
asciilifeform	artifexd: for sufficiently simple quanta, it is very easy to 'verify received' without duplicating all the cruft of tcp.	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	artifexd you will notice the spec is broadcast-oriented.	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	you don't really need to hear anything back from anyone.	[03:13]
*	asciilifeform believes the future to hold many one-way links	[03:13]
asciilifeform	shortwave radio, castaway bottles, obelisks.	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key,	[03:14]
mircea_popescu	unilateral relations are really hard.	[03:14]
mircea_popescu	(i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X")	[03:15]
*	decimation (~decimatio@unaffiliated/decimation) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:16]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to decimation	[03:16]
decimation	it occurs to me that one ought not design low level features into a communication system unless absolutely necessary	[03:17]
*	liberza has quit (Quit: leaving)	[03:17]
mircea_popescu	this about which bit ?	[03:18]
asciilifeform	decimation: that particular point of contention was about a kind of thing not readily retrofitted.	[03:18]
asciilifeform	it is a grave misconception that 'anything can be retrofitted.'	[03:18]
asciilifeform	if it were so, existing net protocols would suffice...	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform explain transsexuals then.	[03:19]
asciilifeform	decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274	[03:19]
assbot	Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.	[03:19]
asciilifeform	transsexuals ?	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	they get gender bits retrofitted. it's a joke.	[03:19]
asciilifeform	lol	[03:19]
asciilifeform	actually very pertitent	[03:20]
asciilifeform	good example of clumsy and very threadbare attempt at 'retrofit'	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	and impertinent at the same time!	[03:20]
asciilifeform	l0l	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	i might be especially thick, but i don't actually understand what decimation is saying.	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	which is the low level function ?	[03:20]
decimation	this was from a paper that was written by folks who designed early 80's network protocols	[03:21]
decimation	http://web.mit.edu/saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.txt	[03:22]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ADtgPX )	[03:22]
*	asciilifeform happens to be a crackpot specializing in the subject of 'abstractions being interchangeably paperable over is a mega-lie, foundations matter forever'	[03:22]
asciilifeform	you will -never- get single-packet friend-or-foe with tcp or tcp-like apparatus.	[03:22]
asciilifeform	(nor an immediate transposability to shortwave/message-in-bottle)	[03:23]
decimation	I don't see why one couldn't route ircd on top of ascii's udp-wot-internet	[03:23]
decimation	(the new ircd being proposed here)	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	ah ah that's what you mean.	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	yes, once that happens, they could.	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	not before tho.	[03:24]
mircea_popescu	decimation did you actually read the whole discussion ?	[03:25]
*	asciilifeform is about to sleep, and recommends to friends also about to sleep, to read 'petrified world.'	[03:25]
asciilifeform	good story before sleep.	[03:25]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to adlai	[03:25]
adlai	what's this?	[03:26]
asciilifeform	http://pastebin.com/w5VYjyBu	[03:26]
assbot	THE PETRIFIED WORLD (Robert Sheckley) - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1IomhL9 )	[03:26]
asciilifeform	(quite pertinent to this evening's thread)	[03:26]
mircea_popescu	are you 12 ?	[03:26]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i think i read this.	[03:26]
asciilifeform	aha srsly ?	[03:26]
decimation	I did. I find myself liking ascii's hardened bedrock	[03:26]
asciilifeform	hypothetical, sadly, bedrock	[03:27]
mircea_popescu	decimation how was the experience ?	[03:27]
*	asciilifeform does not have a battlefield-ready apparatus to offer	[03:27]
decimation	it was a good discussion, I also found it stimulating	[03:27]
decimation	but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere	[03:28]
mircea_popescu	cool.	[03:28]
asciilifeform	!s six words honest man	[03:28]
assbot	0 results for 'six words honest man' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=six+words+honest+man	[03:28]
asciilifeform	damn.	[03:28]
asciilifeform	'If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.' (richilieu)	[03:29]
adlai	is this udp-over-wot concept "too long to fit in the margin", or have you sketched something about about it somewhere?	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	yes, well, this is more a function of louis than anything.	[03:30]
asciilifeform	adlai: described it at some length in #b-a at various points in the past month; also in a few comments on mircea_popescu's site.	[03:30]
adlai	!s udp wot from:ascii	[03:31]
assbot	0 results for 'udp wot from:ascii' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=udp+wot+from%3Aascii	[03:31]
decimation	the interent, as exists, is like tor - in the sense that the group is trying to solve the individual's problem	[03:31]
adlai	!s udp from:ascii	[03:31]
assbot	0 results for 'udp from:ascii' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=udp+from%3Aascii	[03:31]
asciilifeform	adlai: must note that it is originally entirely unrelated to mircea_popescu and artifexd's project	[03:31]
decimation	the only real method of escape is layer 1 routing	[03:31]
asciilifeform	!s udp	[03:31]
assbot	22 results for 'udp' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=udp	[03:31]
asciilifeform	enjoy	[03:31]
mircea_popescu	!s udp from:asciilifeform	[03:31]
adlai	sure, this "ircd" thingy is just the latest in an uncoordinated herd of attempts to attack this same general problem	[03:32]
assbot	12 results for 'udp from:asciilifeform' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=udp+from%3Aasciilifeform	[03:32]
asciilifeform	adlai: the way i understand it, we have at least three people right here who came up with very similar - but different in important respects - attempted solutions.	[03:32]
*	adlai . o ( one could say that mpex simulates udp on top of tcp )	[03:33]
mircea_popescu	one could say that, and be uncharitable.	[03:33]
adlai	not enough "quantum"?	[03:34]
mircea_popescu	lol	[03:34]
asciilifeform	mpex was not the inspiration for my version of the concept, but was the impetus for my coming to believe that it is buildable and worth confessing to people about	[03:34]
adlai	how so?	[03:34]
asciilifeform	proving the point that stateless, medium-agnostic 'connectionless' comms are the only solid way to go.	[03:35]
adlai	I guess it's an example of something which could work equally well over udp, and just happens to use tcp for convenience	[03:35]
asciilifeform	i imagine mpex as consisting of three gurlz, in a box, in shifts, and a console.	[03:36]
mircea_popescu	no, that;'s bitbet.	[03:36]
asciilifeform	console can be connected to tcp or to radio set on valves	[03:36]
asciilifeform	or pigeon cage.	[03:36]
mircea_popescu	the kittens eat pigeons, so... no 1149	[03:36]
asciilifeform	mark twain's cat'n'rat system, lol	[03:36]
adlai	what about mpex needs tcp?	[03:38]
adlai	I guess serving up data	[03:38]
*	adlai is thinking too much like his code	[03:38]
decimation	asciilifeform: medium could also be morse code, slowed down by a factor of 100, in order to achieve redundancy and low bandwidth http://www.w0ch.net/qrss/qrss.htm	[03:40]
assbot	QRSS - Very Slow CW ... ( http://bit.ly/1Iopcn8 )	[03:40]
asciilifeform	decimation: i'd classify all 'one way radio' as a single category for purpose of the discussion re: algorithmic basics.	[03:41]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform afaik no "two way" exists	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	not anymore than true love,anyway.	[03:42]
decimation	yes, except physics categorizes these things naturally, in terms of propagation	[03:42]
asciilifeform	'one way' in the customary (numbers-station-to-spies) sense	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	aha.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	just saying, kind of an engineering convention. no point in seeing too much metaphysics behind it	[03:42]
asciilifeform	'two way' would refer to, e.g., a microwave horn link between two montain top fortresses	[03:42]
asciilifeform	that is, can pass back-n-forth in something resembling 'real time'	[03:43]
decimation	if a receiver is capable of swallowing large power without desensitization, one can listen while one transmits arbitrarily	[03:43]
asciilifeform	in one particular physical system ('passive rfid') one arguably has genuine 'back and forth'	[03:44]
asciilifeform	in the sense of the signal in one direction being a modified, phase-shifted version of the continuous signal in the other.	[03:45]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the price for this, of course, is immutability :)	[03:45]
decimation	asciilifeform: like the 'soviet embassy bug': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)	[03:46]
assbot	The Thing (listening device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1ADxuqQ )	[03:46]
asciilifeform	decimation: the original 'rfid', yes	[03:46]
asciilifeform	!s theremin	[03:46]
assbot	7 results for 'theremin' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=theremin	[03:47]
decimation	lol theremin was a zek when he 'invented' it	[03:49]
*	asciilifeform thought that this was well-known	[03:52]
decimation	ascii you could go visit it in person apparently	[03:54]
decimation	'the thing' I mean	[03:54]
asciilifeform	it is kept in a museum, yes.	[03:55]
asciilifeform	or at least a good copy.	[03:55]
asciilifeform	there are some historical documents that suggest the original was destroyed by clumsy inspectors.	[03:55]
*	Naphex (uid57177@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cqvodhhyafzukknr) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:57]
asciilifeform	a somewhat younger, livelier usg had a multitude of copies produced, and used in utmost secrecy, almost immediately after the find.	[03:58]
asciilifeform	one must appreciate the kind of technological leap it was, in that period	[03:58]
asciilifeform	at that time, a typical 'bug' was not a small 'pill', easily concealed, transmitting (or recording) audio for weeks or months - the way one thinks of them now	[03:59]
asciilifeform	rather, it was a microphone, often at least as large as, say, a thimble, and a very long wire	[03:59]
asciilifeform	connecting it to either a tape recorder (no smaller, even in the most 'golden toilet' variant, than an auto pistol) - or to an actual set of headphones on a head.	[04:00]
asciilifeform	theremin's 'bug' was, from this point of view, sheerly 'martian' technology.	[04:00]
decimation	yeh it is a clever idea	[04:01]
asciilifeform	in my 'death notebook' there is a design for a purely-chemical 'bug'.	[04:02]
asciilifeform	perhaps when i am hanged, it will be manufactured somewhere.	[04:02]
asciilifeform	('chemical' in the sense of having no appreciable electrical currents flowing, nor conductors, except in a residual, ionic sense, nor semiconductors, inside.)	[04:03]
asciilifeform	retrieve, develop (as in photograph), extract audio with simple analogue computer.	[04:05]
asciilifeform	point of fact, i think i may have said quite enough just now, such that one may construct it.	[04:05]
asciilifeform	good exercise 'for alert reader.'	[04:05]
*	aegis has quit (Quit: See ya!)	[04:05]
decimation	asciilifeform: a moving 'polarid' under a modulated light would do it	[04:06]
decimation	but that would have a current	[04:06]
asciilifeform	moving parts (except in the bare minimum of diaphragm) are a no-no.	[04:06]
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ben_vulpes	ah that's rich	[04:07]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to Naphex	[04:07]
asciilifeform	but it is not especially hard to set up a chemical reaction that acts as a travelling 'record needle.'	[04:07]
Naphex	thanks o/	[04:07]
ben_vulpes	no wavefronts are a thing	[04:07]
ben_vulpes	f'n bril, asciilifeform.	[04:07]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes gets it	[04:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform weren;t you going to bed ?	[04:07]
asciilifeform	was. probably will soon enough	[04:08]
asciilifeform	sent woman to bed already	[04:08]
*	napedia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[04:08]
ben_vulpes	matter of fact listening to you and mircea_popescu and artifexed go on has been educational and illuminating in any number of ways	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	haha you know the rickjles joke ?	[04:08]
ben_vulpes	much obliged	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes o you had fun ?	[04:08]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: glad you took some interest in it. take the time later to write some comments?	[04:08]
asciilifeform	rickjles ?	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	"we were going to make it, so i told the wife, go ahead and get started, i'ma grab a paper"	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	perhaps too ny jewish joke.	[04:09]
ben_vulpes	"fun" << myeah something like fun	[04:11]
ben_vulpes	i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy << this one in particular	[04:11]
ben_vulpes	[] and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. << means that if you want everything you say on the record, operate a server for your identity.	[04:23]
ben_vulpes	how to preserve the serenissima log semantics though? if all "chat lines" are wholly deniable, the notion of a public forum in which to do business publically falls apart.	[04:24]
*	asciilifeform (~asciilife@unaffiliated/asciilifeform) has left #bitcoin-assets ("Leaving")	[04:25]
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ben_vulpes	!up asciilifeform	[04:25]
ben_vulpes	it only works for us, and sort of right now (?!?!?) because once upon a time assbot relied on the "authedness" of users via the "gribble" service.	[04:25]
ben_vulpes	;;ident	[04:25]
ben_vulpes	[] that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain! << yeah but only half	[04:28]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes how does it fall apart ?	[04:29]
ben_vulpes	how does it maintain any sort of relevance, if it can be polluted by...	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	by ?	[04:30]
ben_vulpes	ah i guess the log only makes sense as maintained by someone in a wot	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	take the eutherium short as a good working example.	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	this identity, which may be me unless i deny it, proposes he will sign a contract so and so.	[04:30]
ben_vulpes	by anyone who cares to transmit with a bogus "from"	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	you agree to the terms.	[04:30]
mircea_popescu	the contract is forthwith produced.	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	now it's unrepudiable.	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	no contract appears. well... now you cantell whoever you see me through that wtf is this bs.	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	seems perfect.	[04:31]
ben_vulpes	i was commenting at the point in the discusison at which messages were unsigned. did messages become signed?	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	it is also EXACTLY how it worked,	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	except once the few derps flaked, i had nobody to complain to.	[04:31]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes no but recall the thing itself i refer to. a pastebin contract was in fact proferred.	[04:32]
ben_vulpes	sure	[04:32]
mircea_popescu	that.	[04:32]
ben_vulpes	forgive the dunce cap hanging over my eyes, but i'm entirely failing to see how this makes for an unrepudiable log of the forum.	[04:33]
mircea_popescu	it does not.	[04:33]
mircea_popescu	it only makes for an unrepudiable log of what matters.	[04:33]
ben_vulpes	"what matters" << to a keyset though, not "to everyone"	[04:33]
mircea_popescu	because "everyone" does not matter.	[04:34]
mircea_popescu	no more overhanging mega-group.	[04:34]
mircea_popescu	people. just and only.	[04:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21100 @ 0.00061581 = 12.9936 BTC [-]	[04:34]
ben_vulpes	not a record of all strings sent to "#b-a", but a record of all strings sent to "#b-a" as seen by the lN of "assbot".	[04:34]
mircea_popescu	that exists, for each item in l(N).	[04:34]
mircea_popescu	and for them only.	[04:35]
*	mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone.	[04:35]
ben_vulpes	it's because we're all distracted by the hyperattractor 30d above the horizon and 15 deg port!	[04:35]
mircea_popescu	wait wut	[04:35]
ben_vulpes	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjB2qN0TxM << hyperattractor	[04:36]
assbot	Cat Chasing Laser Pointer - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BxPpPS )	[04:36]
ben_vulpes	bad joke; disregard	[04:36]
ben_vulpes	[] probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho. << strikes me that a series of "rating" messages should be parsed to build a rating history.	[04:38]
ben_vulpes	[] i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary << wotchains, perchance?	[04:40]
BingoBoingo	* mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone. << Had to watchh for a while, but it clicked all at once	[04:41]
mircea_popescu	wots are trivially doublespent. as part of normal functioning.	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo o it did ? makes sens enow as a whole ?	[04:42]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Yeah. the skeleton in the RFC wasn't as revealing as the conversation was. gossipd putting the emphasis on Relay in IRC	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	maybe you should write a restatement ? curious how it'd read.	[04:45]
BingoBoingo	Needs more time to coalesce on brain. Might be on the order tomorrow.	[04:47]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/fderp-december-2014-statement/	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	no rush really.	[04:48]
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BingoBoingo	The challenge is the edge cases in the discussion really make the thing click.	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	anyway, on contemplation i actually see this as my finest work to date.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	in any field.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	this is the only kind of youth one could possibly wish for themselves.	[04:57]
BingoBoingo	And it's the kind of youth one has to be older than 30 to experience.	[04:59]
mircea_popescu	i had the feeling when i was 16 :D	[05:03]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15350 @ 0.00062031 = 9.5218 BTC [+] {2}	[05:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14114 @ 0.00062638 = 8.8407 BTC [+]	[05:07]
BingoBoingo	!up Vexual	[05:07]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16874 @ 0.00062849 = 10.6051 BTC [+] {2}	[05:09]
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Vexual	y'all are fixing irc? better close that copper shoert.	[05:12]
Vexual	what does rfc mean?	[05:15]
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Vexual	oh	[05:16]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2010/nsfw-ingaduiti-mi-sa-va-impartasesc/	[05:17]
assbot	NSFW - Ingaduiti-mi sa va impartasesc pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/14u5t9g )	[05:17]
Vexual	nice	[05:18]
mircea_popescu	that belt type, by the way, with themetal rounds ?	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	absolute best type for belting butts.	[05:19]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[13:03]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[13:03]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[13:03]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[13:03]
*	#bitcoin-assets :You're not a channel operator	[13:03]
*	#bitcoin-assets :You're not a channel operator	[13:04]
chanserv	OP #bitcoin-assets	[13:04]
*	ChanServ gives channel operator status to mircea_popescu	[13:04]
thestringpuller	good morning mr. chairman	[13:04]
mircea_popescu	"Not everyone who wants an immediate confirmation will be able to get it, regardless of how much they pay. If there's more people wanting next-block confirmation than there are slots in the block, it's mathematically guaranteed that people will miss out. As network usage grows, the percentage of unsatisfied users will grow linearly with it."	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	check out the idiocy lol.	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	"i want it" "are you paying for it ?" "no, but i still want it" "because ?" "because i say so, damn it" "this isn't fiat, billy" "fuck you stop opressing me"	[13:08]
thestringpuller	that's a good way to put it	[13:08]
thestringpuller	like a kid having a temper tantrum in a store because mommy won't buy him gummy bears	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i kinda enjoy all this acting as if they have an option in the matter.	[13:09]
*	mircea_popescu really hopes he will actualyl get to rape this crowd.	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	damn it'll be so sweet.	[13:09]
thestringpuller	that's kublai/ghengis khan talk there	[13:11]
thestringpuller	so who declared the war?	[13:12]
thestringpuller	Gavin is provoking war, for what reason?	[13:12]
mircea_popescu	he's just doing what told. "for democracy".	[13:14]
mircea_popescu	whatever mini-nuland is in charge does not understand that there are forces more powerful on the field, who "do not understand how the world works"	[13:14]
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thestringpuller	but even so any fork at all needs to be killed immediately. it splits network power and lowers security.	[13:15]
thestringpuller	ideally killing the fork before it's even a thing.	[13:15]
mircea_popescu	i do not see this.	[13:16]
mircea_popescu	the expensive and painful slow roasting of idiots is a very valuable output.	[13:16]
thestringpuller	care to elaborate?	[13:16]
mircea_popescu	their cries of pain and outrage should be preserved for posterity, to teach others.	[13:16]
thestringpuller	heh.	[13:17]
thestringpuller	benevolent AND merciful	[13:17]
mircea_popescu	the fact that no lord ever wanted whoever he punished to ever die is directly apparent if you look at two things : their artists made hell be eternal torture ; the bodies lay in the gibbet at the gate for much longer than the dude inside survived.	[13:17]
mircea_popescu	so no, if it lasts forever and it's nothing but a hellish cried of the tortured all the better.	[13:18]
mircea_popescu	sadly this won't be possible here, like it's not possible generally, but in spirit.	[13:19]
thestringpuller	i'm visualizing a classroom full of students pointing and laughing at Gavin while he struggles to find emotions and reactions	[13:20]
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*	mircea_popescu gives voice to PeterL	[13:30]
PeterL	hi	[13:30]
mircea_popescu	how goes.	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	btw, you know scoopbot website is not werk ?	[13:31]
PeterL	yeah, I know, I need to fix it	[13:31]
PeterL	I think my server is blocked from trilema?	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	pm me ip. did it make a ton of requests ?	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#968556 << kid is practically begging to be beaten, they won't oblige.	[13:36]
assbot	Logged on 07-01-2015 11:41:56; cazalla: damn, how does a woman become such a milf with this shit in her life? http://youtu.be/Iu7C5clA4q0?t=4m36s	[13:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18350 @ 0.0006522 = 11.9679 BTC [+] {2}	[13:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20250 @ 0.00064326 = 13.026 BTC [-]	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo cazalla here's a pretty good tip for qntra :	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	nejc/bitstamp crew allege that hacker somehow got into their system, stole privkeys for their addresses, AND THEN deleted their copies. magically. they were all online or something, who knows.	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	HOWEVER. one of those addresses is http://bitbet.us/stats/1QJRfCctSz7BLriE7CiF5LefBXJgm6Jcax/	[13:47]
assbot	BitBet Stats ... ( http://bit.ly/141NVQw )	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	in continuous use from dec 18th.	[13:47]
thestringpuller	whoa	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ?	[13:47]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to asciilifeform	[13:48]
asciilifeform	ty mircea_popescu	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	my pleasure.	[13:48]
thestringpuller	sorry to hear you got the flu asciilifeform	[13:48]
thestringpuller	the joys of slave labor in US eh?	[13:48]
asciilifeform	if i knew how to earn bread without leaving home, i would	[13:51]
asciilifeform	perhaps i ought to attend spam school.	[13:51]
PeterL	my father-in-law earns a living at home in his pajamas, programming	[13:51]
mircea_popescu	"Piketty, some would say, is king. I say Piketty has shown, like Gibbon, what is possible. "	[13:52]
mircea_popescu	is this the french commie ?	[13:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00065392 = 14.517 BTC [+] {3}	[14:01]
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mircea_popescu	ahhh the fact reddit is so in favour of this hardfork business is so great :D	[14:16]
mircea_popescu	hot damn i hope they go through with it	[14:16]
mod6	tie them to the radiator and grape them in the mouth	[14:17]
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mircea_popescu	lol	[14:18]
fluffypony	what hardfork business?	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	fluffypony but the logs!	[14:19]
fluffypony	it's holiday season :-P	[14:19]
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mircea_popescu	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cnhdze7?context=3 << check it out, hashname perseveres.	[14:20]
assbot	0749dddfaecad1445f66 comments on Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - by Gavin Andresen ... ( http://bit.ly/141WUBo )	[14:20]
mircea_popescu	fluffypony links for you there, as it happens.	[14:20]
fluffypony	ah ok	[14:20]
mod6	http://youtu.be/Ow7pwIDhl5c	[14:21]
assbot	Whitest Kids U Know - I am gonna grape you in the mouth - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/141Xdfz )	[14:21]
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mircea_popescu	nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original <<< there's a million of these.	[14:26]
mircea_popescu	who the fuck is Taylor Swift	[14:27]
mircea_popescu	"american singer-songwriter and actress"	[14:27]
thestringpuller	!b 1	[14:27]
assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0DHN10G.txt )	[14:27]
mircea_popescu	why am i so surprised.	[14:27]
thestringpuller	!b 4	[14:27]
assbot	Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/31JVZ88.txt )	[14:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.000655 = 4.2248 BTC [+]	[14:30]
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mircea_popescu	"The IETF, obviously fearing irrelevance, hastily "discovered" that the HTTP/1.1 protocol needed an update, and tasked a working group with preparing it on an unrealistically short schedule. This ruled out any basis for the new HTTP/2.0 other than the SPDY protocol. With only the most hideous of SPDY's warts removed, and all other attempts at improvement rejected as "not in scope," "too late," or "no consensus," the IE	[14:33]
mircea_popescu	TF can now claim relevance and victory by conceding practically every principle ever held dear in return for the privilege of rubber-stamping Google's initiative."	[14:33]
mircea_popescu	heh. quite.	[14:33]
mircea_popescu	as if irrelevance can ever be averted by this sort of thing.	[14:33]
mircea_popescu	it's like making dogs blind to your fear by shaking uncontrollably.	[14:34]
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mircea_popescu	jurov: lots of derp tho << i kinda liked his piece tbh.	[14:39]
mircea_popescu	are they bad ?	[14:40]
mircea_popescu	;;ud ncfaci	[14:41]
jurov	lol that's just keyfart	[14:41]
asciilifeform	if using the ssl crock of shit at all, being your own signing authority (instead of swallowing the master key bullshit and extortionary fees of the 'authorities') is the only way to go	[14:42]
mircea_popescu	oh	[14:42]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform is what i thought too.	[14:42]
asciilifeform	elementarily true	[14:43]
mircea_popescu	after all "self-signed" cert can be edged into proper gpg signed matter, and it's all good.	[14:43]
asciilifeform	and if a 'luser' won't read or can't remember the genuine fingerprint, and won't write it down, whatever - he has no business owning computer	[14:43]
mircea_popescu	obviously "one has no way of knowing" if a self signed cert is good. but if there's also a .asc on the server... i'd say it's a damned sight better than "Verizon certifies"	[14:43]
asciilifeform	in case anyone needs to be reminded of this - ssl remains a crock of shit - as in, the entire protocol stack is porous and comically maldesigned	[14:44]
mircea_popescu	no contest.	[14:44]
mircea_popescu	jurov im curious to hear the self signed cert reasoning tbh.	[14:45]
asciilifeform	the traditional party line is 'oh noez you'll be mitm-ed if your browser doesn't refuse self-signed'	[14:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00064884 = 1.4923 BTC [-] {2}	[14:46]
mircea_popescu	sure, but i has a high regard of jurov.	[14:47]
asciilifeform	jurov: what did you have in mind ?	[14:47]
kakobrekla	unfortunately things people call browsers dont like to swallow self signed.	[14:47]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: this is because the browsers are usg projects.	[14:48]
asciilifeform	in certain cases, directly	[14:48]
mircea_popescu	check this out : http://www.westernjournalism.com/breaking-12-killed-french-islamic-terror-attack-real-story/	[14:48]
assbot	Breaking: 12 Killed In French ISLAMIC Terror Attack. The REAL Story… ... ( http://bit.ly/1424mfR )	[14:48]
mircea_popescu	IT CAN NOT BE TERRORISM!!!	[14:48]
jurov	i believe self-signed certs are usable only for private use	[14:49]
jurov	and even they they are PITA	[14:49]
kakobrekla	yes they are so cause browsers.	[14:49]
jurov	so they are not "almost zero cost"	[14:49]
mircea_popescu	jurov what's private use ?	[14:49]
mircea_popescu	allah hates comedy. who knew.	[14:50]
jurov	inside a company for example	[14:50]
asciilifeform	yes, usg succeeded in setting up the situation where every luserplebe's browser will ring bells, flash lights, if a cert didn't come with a hitler signature	[14:50]
asciilifeform	some of the newer browsers, iirc, won't even give him the option of swallowing	[14:51]
jurov	i don't contest that	[14:51]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform they also managed this situation where all the shit online carries a "5000 derps that don't really exist LIKE THIS"	[14:51]
mircea_popescu	because yes, absolutely, moar democracy.	[14:51]
asciilifeform	demoocracy aha.	[14:51]
mircea_popescu	jurov so you mean, it only works for sessions where the user knows/trusts the source, as opposed to whatever, random drive-by publishing ?	[14:51]
mircea_popescu	would work for a bank, wouldn't work for a newspaper sort of thing ?	[14:52]
jurov	i'm looking forward how are they going to solve it in libressl, if ever	[14:52]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to mike_c	[14:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16700 @ 0.000656 = 10.9552 BTC [+] {2}	[14:53]
jurov	i don't see how every time i'm accessing anything via https/smtps i'm going to think whether this is the right cert	[14:54]
jurov	tools like surl don't save it like ssh	[14:54]
jurov	*curl	[14:54]
mircea_popescu	jurov my browser allows me to save cert for later ?	[14:54]
mircea_popescu	checks against it as if it were verizon'd, no difference	[14:54]
mircea_popescu	is this minority behaviour ?	[14:54]
jurov	i am not talking about browser, that's lost cause	[14:54]
BingoBoingo	now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ? << I don't see any new bets after the 4th. COuld just be a derp who wanted to "win" to his Bitstamp deposit address?	[14:55]
mircea_popescu	curl similarily imports certs ?	[14:55]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo wasn't the actual breach prior to the 4th ?	[14:55]
mircea_popescu	as opposed to announcement thereof ?	[14:55]
jurov	it annoys me to no end when i install self-signed cert and even if i try to distribute it between machines, some dam curl-like tool breaks	[14:55]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs.	[14:56]
jurov	also, email clients. it was not possible to make all them work with self-signed cert	[14:56]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo i guess that works out then, prolly a customer.	[14:56]
mircea_popescu	a well.	[14:56]
jurov	it's just all lost cause. self-signed certs yes, but only after ssl/tls is ditched.	[14:57]
mircea_popescu	jurov well ok, by and large for any expectation it won't be possible to make "all" work. because anyone can anything, and well...	[14:57]
mircea_popescu	but i see whatcha mean. "not politically favoured, so not as well ironed out, so harder to use"	[14:57]
jurov	it's much easier with ssh for example	[14:57]
mircea_popescu	well yes, partly because ssh has no verizon.	[14:58]
mircea_popescu	you gotta put your key in	[14:58]
mircea_popescu	whodda thought, you know, that NOT invoving an us company is better.	[14:58]
BingoBoingo	http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/01/07/1440253/gunmen-kill-12-wound-7-at-french-magazine-hq	[15:04]
assbot	Gunmen Kill 12, Wound 7 At French Magazine HQ - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/14288py )	[15:04]
BingoBoingo	thestringpuller: The atlantic doesn't know you exist http://t.co/uHfcEi8KRg	[15:05]
assbot	Why Are So Few Black People Using Bitcoin? - The Atlantic ... ( http://bit.ly/1428soe )	[15:05]
mircea_popescu	lol	[15:05]
BingoBoingo	https://twitter.com/pete_dushenski/status/552862307307782144	[15:07]
assbot	The Atlantic: Why Are So Few Black People Using Bitcoin?http://t.co/SEd8fZWC37	[15:07]
BingoBoingo	pete suggested: "Maybe they are better at keeping it on the down low".	[15:07]
mircea_popescu	what atlantic really means is "why are there so few black scammers in bitcoin, because that's all we know about anyway". and the reason couldn't possibly be "because they're just more honest than whitey"	[15:08]
thestringpuller	hah!	[15:09]
thestringpuller	hahah!	[15:09]
mircea_popescu	tis true.	[15:10]
thestringpuller	except for Lamar	[15:10]
thestringpuller	of Pheeva	[15:10]
thestringpuller	pretty sure he's taking bitpay cock up da butt knowing the implications	[15:10]
mircea_popescu	you keep going. you'll run out before i'm done enumerating pasty ass.	[15:10]
thestringpuller	hahaha! i thought only black people used "pasty white person" phrasing	[15:10]
mircea_popescu	im also black	[15:11]
thestringpuller	gotta love pasty white girls who are afraid of the sun like vampires tho ;)	[15:11]
mircea_popescu	in my spare time.	[15:11]
thestringpuller	o i kno	[15:11]
thestringpuller	MP is og	[15:11]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i have no problem with dudes going "oh, blacks do all teh crime!!!" if that's what they believe, and start running off stats about it. big whoop. but it's funny how nobody happens to fucking noticing the OTHER stats.	[15:12]
thestringpuller	mir-dizzle to the popes-rizzle	[15:12]
mircea_popescu	"black on black violence in the ghetto is so and so!!1". fine. and white on white scamming in bitcoin is how ?	[15:12]
BingoBoingo	!b 1	[15:12]
assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3TTCAS7.txt )	[15:12]
asciilifeform	i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc.	[15:13]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yeah. the shit run by jews in 1935.	[15:13]
asciilifeform	the very same	[15:13]
mircea_popescu	and by italians in 1955.	[15:13]
mircea_popescu	probably on the same damned exact stones.	[15:13]
asciilifeform	quite likely.	[15:13]
BingoBoingo	i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc. << Replaced by same game with different operator "Lottery"	[15:13]
mircea_popescu	i went to school in this huge, what you'd call super-preppy thing.	[15:13]
mircea_popescu	and i have this distinct memory of a kid being pissed of at some chick, and going to carve "X is a whore" in the wall	[15:14]
BingoBoingo	Exurb	[15:14]
mircea_popescu	except... there was that ALREADY carved there. easily 50 years old.	[15:14]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: the interesting thing is that usg has not succeeded in entirely displacing the native, ethnic 'lotteries'	[15:14]
mircea_popescu	same name, same exact string.	[15:14]
mircea_popescu	;;later tell pete_dushenski "Their habitual attacks on forums is usually" << are.	[15:16]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1273 @ 0.00079999 = 1.0184 BTC [-] {4}	[15:17]
mircea_popescu	"But what of it? How does this effect you? Well, it effects" affects you. afect is another name for sentiment. to affect is to cause an effect upon something. to effect, confusingly enough, is to cause the execution of something. so, you effect legislation, and that legislation affects people.	[15:19]
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*	mircea_popescu gives voice to saifedean	[15:22]
saifedean	hai there, mp, thanks for the voice	[15:25]
mircea_popescu	np	[15:25]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00065626 = 9.7126 BTC [+]	[15:26]
TomServo	https://twitter.com/Bitstamp/status/552875687137525760	[15:28]
assbot	Our temporary website didn’t feel quite like home - so we gave it a little refresh while we work on restoring full services.	[15:28]
kakobrekla	win	[15:29]
mircea_popescu	"Keep up the good work!"	[15:29]
kakobrekla	temp site looking good!	[15:29]
TomServo	very nice shade of green!	[15:29]
kakobrekla	all green, nicely done. Safe choice of colors.	[15:29]
mircea_popescu	when are they bringing the fractional reserve back up ?	[15:29]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22202 @ 0.00065626 = 14.5703 BTC [+]	[15:33]
asciilifeform	'got fish? nope, this is the meat counter. fish is what they don't have at the fish counter.'	[15:34]
mircea_popescu	lol	[15:35]
mircea_popescu	in other news, http://cdn.collarspace.com/photos/2173196p03.jpg?01072015085027	[15:35]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/17jarXj )	[15:35]
mod6	kakobrekla: lol!	[15:57]
kakobrekla	as safe as their hot wallet	[15:58]
*	asciilifeform reread last night's thread, and grasped mircea_popescu deniable-transmissions scheme.	[15:58]
mircea_popescu	better on 2nd pass huh ?	[15:58]
asciilifeform	aha	[15:58]
asciilifeform	also better when awake	[15:58]
mircea_popescu	cool!	[15:58]
mircea_popescu	lol	[15:58]
mircea_popescu	saifedean answered.	[15:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00063408 = 30.1822 BTC [-] {6}	[15:59]
mircea_popescu	by the way, requiem for a dream. good film.	[16:00]
*	asciilifeform saw, some years ago, liked	[16:01]
kakobrekla	btw bitstamp is moving operations to us (prolly sf).	[16:09]
kakobrekla	you heard it here phirst.	[16:09]
asciilifeform	l0l!	[16:09]
mike_c	interesting. they must be retaining UK incorporation, no? I would think it would be legal shitstorm otherwise.	[16:10]
kakobrekla	i dont think so but dont have the details.	[16:11]
mike_c	they should come to NYC. very bitcoin friendly. just drop all your coins off at lawsky's office on the way into town.	[16:11]
BingoBoingo	Mebbe they think legal shitstorm is to their benefit for filing bankruptcy?	[16:11]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla so they can "cover" by being bought.	[16:13]
mircea_popescu	something tells me they have nfi how to write a term sheet, and there's about 50-50 odds of the financer backing out.	[16:14]
mircea_popescu	tl;dr : this won't end well.	[16:14]
mircea_popescu	watch how in a few short months it won't be possible to buy bitcoin at any price.	[16:15]
mircea_popescu	i guess ima have to bring an exchange online willy-nilly.	[16:15]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00065305 = 14.1712 BTC [+]	[16:34]
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BingoBoingo	"Attacks cell walls" You know just what penicillin and the rest of the beta-lactams do: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-07/antibiotic-breakthrough-ends-25-year-discovery-drought.html	[16:36]
assbot	Antibiotic Breakthrough Ends 25-Year Discovery Drought - Bloomberg	[16:36]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7345 @ 0.00024059 = 1.7671 BTC [-] {3}	[16:37]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 22000 @ 0.00023561 = 5.1834 BTC [-] {3}	[16:39]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30200 @ 0.00063652 = 19.2229 BTC [-] {2}	[16:43]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15750 @ 0.00062815 = 9.8934 BTC [-]	[16:50]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 15093 @ 0.0002001 = 3.0201 BTC [-]	[16:52]
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asciilifeform	wai wat, mircea_popescu with an exchange ?!	[17:12]
*	asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens	[17:12]
BingoBoingo	* asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens << The Fairchild "WartHog"???	[17:14]
artifexd	mircea_popescu: Regarding gossipd, do you have any preference for the data flowing over the wire as binary or text?	[17:15]
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artifexd	Binary would mean shorter messages because fingerprint a would only take up 20 bytes (instead of 40) and keys would not have to be armored. Text would make the flow easier to read/debug but the data would necessarily take up more space.	[17:17]
jurov	artifecd did you research some existing ideas?	[17:24]
jurov	i liked http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/8.2.0/api/twisted.protocols.amp.html but did not try it in practice	[17:24]
assbot	twisted.protocols.amp : API documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/14pFQG2 )	[17:24]
BingoBoingo	http://media.bnd.com/smedia/2014/12/19/06/56/1jjiYD.AuSt.98.jpg	[17:24]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/14pFSxE )	[17:24]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00062034 = 2.7295 BTC [-]	[17:33]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24353 @ 0.00065628 = 15.9824 BTC [+] {2}	[17:46]
cazalla	mircea_popescu: HOWEVER. one of those addresses is http://bitbet.us/stats/1QJRfCctSz7BLriE7CiF5LefBXJgm6Jcax/ <<< isn't this just a case of someone using their bitstamp deposit address for bitbet payouts, even kakobrekla mentioned this http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-01-2015#965903	[17:52]
assbot	BitBet Stats ... ( http://bit.ly/14pPh8o )	[17:52]
assbot	Logged on 05-01-2015 15:10:48; kakobrekla: im now getting "my output address is bitstamp hot wallet" emails from bitbet users.	[17:52]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23300 @ 0.00065933 = 15.3624 BTC [+] {2}	[17:53]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkt1u/coinbase_give_us_the_right_to_run_your_credit/cngz6fs a voice of reason	[17:54]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40570 @ 0.0006355 = 25.7822 BTC [-] {4}	[18:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45530 @ 0.00061195 = 27.8621 BTC [-] {3}	[18:01]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22500 @ 0.00061774 = 13.8992 BTC [+]	[18:17]
cazalla	BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs. <<< and there is still the issue of what amount of coins will not honoured by bitstamp after the annoucement	[18:20]
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asciilifeform	artifexd: text?! wtf	[18:38]
asciilifeform	jurov: and what is that gnarly pythonism.	[18:41]
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*	asciilifeform wonders if he woke up in some alternate universe #b-a full of www-dev folks	[18:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33300 @ 0.00065025 = 21.6533 BTC [+] {3}	[18:44]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00066312 = 7.5596 BTC [+] {4}	[18:46]
*	mats_cd03 is now known as mats	[18:48]
mircea_popescu	artifexd it's always encrypted, so what do you mean text ?	[18:50]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/01/lawmakers-facebook-rant-threatens-media-for-unauthorized-use-of-his-name << turns out we have these here.	[18:53]
assbot	Lawmaker’s Facebook rant threatens media for “unauthorized” use of his name \| Ars Technica ... ( http://bit.ly/1zURjpq )	[18:53]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.000664 = 3.32 BTC [+]	[18:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9276 @ 0.000664 = 6.1593 BTC [+]	[18:56]
Apocalyptic	"mircea_popescu:i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion." // so did I, thanks for the priceless logs	[19:07]
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mircea_popescu	cazalla seems so, yes.	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller not bad. invite them over.	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	Apocalyptic cool!	[19:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8224 @ 0.00065749 = 5.4072 BTC [-]	[19:10]
*	jborkl is now known as jborkl_	[19:11]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2015/oil-theory/#comment-111275 perhaps of broad interest seeing the fork war context.	[19:21]
assbot	Oil theory pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1zUVnGp )	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	last para at any rate.	[19:21]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29650 @ 0.00066537 = 19.7282 BTC [+] {3}	[19:27]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'Let them have scrip, will be good enough for them...' << usd is not already scrip ?	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[19:27]
asciilifeform	admittedly, a peculiar kind of scrip, for which one can get certain things overseas (for the time being)	[19:27]
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asciilifeform	at some point, usd will no longer be a 'convertible' unit. completing its transition to equivalent of the soviet ruble.	[19:29]
asciilifeform	really the definition, if there is one, of 'scrip.'	[19:29]
asciilifeform	just like you can't spend subway tokens outside of the subway.	[19:29]
mike_c	^ it is also illegal to sell them.. such bullshit.	[19:31]
undata	"and then the ashes of their apps were all that remained"	[19:31]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'The notion that gold supply does not increase a lot is predicated on obsolete technology. Gold supply would increase quite a lot, and in really harmful ways involving cyanide, if it seriously became monetized.' << iirc, cyanidation was SOP since 1890s.	[19:35]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: now, harmful methods involving - neutrons? yes.	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	just, lemme fish this out	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2010/hai-sa-facem-si-noi-de-astea/	[19:36]
assbot	Hai sa facem si noi de-astea pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1s6wee4 )	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	that's one of those large excavators	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	THAT was not sop in 1890s	[19:36]
asciilifeform	aha.	[19:37]
asciilifeform	butugychag rennaissance is inevitable anyway	[19:37]
asciilifeform	quite a few increasingly scarce strategic minerals, all across mendeleev table.	[19:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13168 @ 0.00066552 = 8.7636 BTC [+] {2}	[19:39]
undata	asciilifeform: seems like an economic meltdown would also decrease the demand for those for new iPhones	[19:40]
asciilifeform	for pNohes - down. for bolometers used in heat-seeking rocket - up.	[19:41]
asciilifeform	it's an elementary 'who at this table starves last' situation	[19:42]
BingoBoingo	I'm pretty sure pNohe sellers could find a way to make resistive touchscreens fashionable again.	[19:45]
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asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: In is not the only scarce mineral.	[19:46]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Sure.	[19:47]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'Currency generally is in the hands of a selected few, this situation where every man woman and child holds some is an exception, and I suspect coming to an end.' << i recall being shown, as a boy, an 1890s ru coin that 'would feed a family for a month!111!!'	[19:49]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this kind of thing worked in 'tribal' structure, where most folks are reasonably 'close to the soil' and grow/kill the necessities of life personally. i suppose it also works in a concentration camp - though, iirc, these also typically have a kind of scrip and so aren't entirely free of currency.	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	it will work fine in the world of the future	[19:51]
mircea_popescu	independence is predicated on something other than being a redditor.	[19:51]
asciilifeform	i'd guess more of a #2 than 1	[19:51]
asciilifeform	does 'reddit' really differ in any fundamental way, as a basic urban treadmill, from 1700s english gin, or roman circuses ?	[19:52]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4226 @ 0.00065749 = 2.7786 BTC [-]	[19:54]
BingoBoingo	Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin.	[19:55]
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ben_vulpes	[] o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this. << lord am i	[19:55]
ben_vulpes	100% serious	[19:55]
BingoBoingo	http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/07/the-white-house-on-charlie-hebdo-then-an	[19:56]
assbot	The White House on Charlie Hebdo, Then and Now - Hit & Run : Reason.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1s6yAK7 )	[19:56]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772767	[19:57]
assbot	Logged on 27-07-2014 19:19:35; mircea_popescu: chetty: II 5. France took Algeria, hoping for a country to eat cassoulet and instead France is now eating couscous. << this is what happens when small penis messes with big penis.	[19:57]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Naturally. I still wait for California's Seirra Nevada range to be inverted in the quest for rare minerals and to create H2O reservoir capacity to sustain the prisons and work farms.	[19:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00062969 = 2.8966 BTC [-]	[20:01]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i'm expecting to end up in an inca-style, rather than soviet-style, camp	[20:02]
ben_vulpes	!up mats	[20:04]
ben_vulpes	wb mats	[20:04]
asciilifeform	that is, there is a fence to keep folks from leaving; they are left to fend for selves for food and water within the confines; and if the weekly quota of $metal is not brought to the gates in timely manner, there are public educaxecutions	[20:04]
asciilifeform	perhaps we should refer to this as 'belgian' method	[20:04]
BingoBoingo	Belgian method sounds about right.	[20:04]
BingoBoingo	Leopold, that man had ideas.	[20:04]
asciilifeform	what ideas. spain was there long first.	[20:05]
ben_vulpes	someone up mats plz	[20:05]
BingoBoingo	Leopold tried on a harsher continent.	[20:05]
asciilifeform	and the basic notion of working folks to death in a mine - is ancient.	[20:05]
BingoBoingo	!up mats	[20:05]
*	assbot gives voice to mats	[20:05]
ben_vulpes	wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now?	[20:05]
asciilifeform	who?	[20:05]
BingoBoingo	Leopold's flavor also came with an exit strategy.	[20:05]
BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: I've just stayed connected.	[20:06]
ben_vulpes	me too.	[20:06]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: everything comes with 'exit strategy'	[20:06]
asciilifeform	just not necessarily the one you might like	[20:06]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have been voicing folks by hand.	[20:08]
ben_vulpes	yeah but how come BingoBoingo gets to !up and not me	[20:09]
*	ben_vulpes stomps foot petulantly	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes cause he kept an uninterrupted connection and assbot still sees him	[20:09]
BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: Maybe your connection just needs to be less wonh	[20:09]
ben_vulpes	when did assbot come back?	[20:09]
ben_vulpes	;;ident	[20:09]
ben_vulpes	you know what?	[20:10]
asciilifeform	assbot, afaik, never died	[20:10]
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ben_vulpes	i don't actually care.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin. <<< there;'s tons of "gin as virtue" songs and oral liuterature.	[20:10]
asciilifeform	it's simply rudderless w/out gribble	[20:10]
ben_vulpes	derp, i meant gribble.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	it was not preserved in writing because the mps of the time did not see itworthy of their wot.	[20:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15300 @ 0.00066554 = 10.1828 BTC [+]	[20:10]
asciilifeform	'work is the curse of the drinking class' !	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now? << no.	[20:11]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: iirc, a good bit of that stuff -was- preserved in writing - of a kind. e.g., 'broadside ballads'	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[20:12]
ben_vulpes	[] hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative. << your sought "morale hit"	[20:15]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: i did, later, grasp mircea_popescu's deniable-transmission algo	[20:16]
kakobrekla	ben_vulpes you can speak cause you have ops not cause authed with gribble and assbot.	[20:16]
kakobrekla	and you cant !up, but you can +voice	[20:17]
ben_vulpes	confession time, i know nothing about the arcana of irc modes	[20:17]
mircea_popescu	join the club.	[20:17]
ben_vulpes	gossipd when	[20:17]
mircea_popescu	as soon as artifexd gets exactly drunk enough ?	[20:18]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: trick is that two directly-connected cells may as well be exchanging signed msgs. but relayed msgs (in, e.g., cells a -> b -> c, from a to c) are 'gossip' - that is, 'deniable.'	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform precisely	[20:18]
ben_vulpes	clever, neh?	[20:19]
ben_vulpes	i imagine we'll all be running our own cells initially.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	permanently ?	[20:20]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: how do you propose to use the hypothetical gizmo without running a cell ?	[20:20]
mircea_popescu	i suppose once webchat is enabled you could use that.	[20:20]
ben_vulpes	how does someone relay a message to a cell and from a cell to another cell?	[20:20]
mircea_popescu	dude just read it first lol;	[20:20]
mircea_popescu	ask after.	[20:20]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: manually configured peers	[20:20]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: do read mircea_popescu's article, it is very concise.	[20:21]
ben_vulpes	forgive the extremely poorly articulated comment.	[20:22]
ben_vulpes	i imagine a steady-state future where people operate gossipd cells in much the same way that ircd's are operated on fleanode.	[20:23]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: rather more like bitcoin - in that you introduce messages into the net by loading them into your own cell	[20:23]
asciilifeform	which then propagates to your peers	[20:23]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: https://blockchain.info/pushtx	[20:24]
asciilifeform	(i forget if this was mircea_popescu's terminology in the original article, or not)	[20:24]
assbot	Broadcast Transaction - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1s6D7Mt )	[20:24]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: aha but you cannot really have this, unless you - in particular - or one of your peers - wants to create a public toilet for spam and give it peerage	[20:25]
ben_vulpes	it will happen.	[20:25]
ben_vulpes	the structure of the thing implies many wots.	[20:25]
asciilifeform	if one carries on with such, may find himself on a rather smaller and lonelier gossipnet	[20:25]
asciilifeform	than before.	[20:25]
ben_vulpes	doubtful, see the ever prolix reddit.	[20:26]
asciilifeform	incidentally i don't recall if any of you lot suggested this, but: max-graph-degrees knob.	[20:26]
asciilifeform	for when you want a 'louder', 'more new blood' sort of experience - crank clockwise.	[20:27]
asciilifeform	for the radio aficionados among us, let's call it 'squelch'	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes there's no value in imposing values for poeople.	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	just as long as i can isolate the redditd from my machine, the people who want to be in there are more then welcome to their own choices.	[20:28]
mircea_popescu	freedom is this, not something else.	[20:28]
ben_vulpes	i'm not suggesting any values be forced on anyone.	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i thought it's implicit in the spec, in the "receiver decides if to relay" : you can configure a client to pass, to user or other clients, whatever you wish	[20:29]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: in a way, it is. but sort of left as an exercise.	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	yea. well honestly most everything is so left.	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes granted. i just mean... so they do,more power to em.	[20:29]
*	ben_vulpes intends to run an open relay node - openly disclosed as such for those in the mood to twiddle knobs	[20:30]
ben_vulpes	cell, excuse me.	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	sure	[20:32]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: "hashname" << have ye unleashed the valkyrie on reddit?	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	i dunno who it is	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	but some youthful enthusiast,i got a few offline pms.	[20:35]
*	assbot removes voice from mats	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.00066554 = 4.2927 BTC [+]	[20:39]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00066593 = 8.2575 BTC [+] {2}	[20:46]
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thestringpuller	!up tsp_2	[21:03]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4331 @ 0.00064543 = 2.7954 BTC [-]	[21:15]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1393 @ 0.00081683 = 1.1378 BTC [-] {5}	[21:25]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12200 @ 0.00064543 = 7.8742 BTC [-]	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	sooo... apparently "text" mysql blobs are limited to 65535 characters ?	[21:57]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111278 << perhaps should be a separate article ?	[22:08]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJK9GN )	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	it is incredible just how broken wordpress is.	[22:09]
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BingoBoingo	http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/14/muslim-gangs-continue-to-terrorize-55-neighborhoods-police-powerless/	[22:17]
assbot	Muslim Gangs Terrorize 55 Neighborhoods, Police Powerless \| The Daily Caller ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJLo90 )	[22:17]
asciilifeform	^ mega-lol!	[22:18]
asciilifeform	when does the actual gov of se (northern caliphate) send replacement embassy to washington.	[22:18]
BingoBoingo	Question is will they ever care to.	[22:25]
asciilifeform	!s yi yi zhi yi	[22:25]
assbot	13 results for 'yi yi zhi yi' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=yi+yi+zhi+yi	[22:25]
asciilifeform	^ alternate hypothesis	[22:25]
BingoBoingo	In that case embassy lives in the shadows	[22:26]
asciilifeform	very simple formula: the 'barbarians' are in fact employees of the swedish (french, british, american - each case) government, aka usg, in good standing.	[22:27]
asciilifeform	their purpose is to terrorize the native population, for a variety of useful purposes (bolster seekoority state; keep real estate prices in less-afflicted zones high; etc)	[22:28]
asciilifeform	in many cases these folks are literally 'employed' to create chaos - as in, they get a pension, in return for... doing just that	[22:29]
asciilifeform	but this is a subject covered in painstaking detail in many other places.	[22:30]
mircea_popescu	i suppose this is not the best time to bring up the barbecuran.	[22:31]
asciilifeform	l0l	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	isn't it sort-of strange how this works ?	[22:31]
asciilifeform	only if mircea_popescu wants to test the turrets.	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[22:31]
asciilifeform	they do need occasional testing.	[22:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16300 @ 0.00064046 = 10.4395 BTC [-] {2}	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	more's the point : ever wonder how these dudes pick ?	[22:32]
asciilifeform	http://frallik.livejournal.com/904117.html << 'they faked'	[22:32]
assbot	Varnish Error 503 Service Unavailable ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJNOEp )	[22:32]
asciilifeform	that was fast.	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	i can see it	[22:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9805 @ 0.00065157 = 6.3886 BTC [+]	[22:35]
mircea_popescu	anyway, which kind of evil sand niggers were these ? the irani like or the saudi like ?	[22:38]
asciilifeform	not, afaik, specified	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	only an important point when discussing which side to give arms to ?	[22:39]
asciilifeform	sunni is well-funded iirc.	[22:39]
mircea_popescu	they'reall well funded.	[22:39]
mircea_popescu	heck, they're better funded than wasps.	[22:40]
asciilifeform	shia could use a better operating system.	[22:40]
cazalla	damn, the shooters in France don't fucking hesitate, down under it took almost 24 hours for the shooter to fire off a round https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSMJb0fcWt4	[22:40]
assbot	Charlie Hebdo magazine police officer shot in head - CLOSE UP! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJOU31 )	[22:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00065157 = 5.7338 BTC [+]	[22:44]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: incidentally, this is just after president hollande suggests pulling out of ru sanctions thing	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	lol	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	so it is sunni then	[22:47]
asciilifeform	then or generic theatre.	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	kinda pleasant to watch europe from distance.	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	ovbiously, the result of this is not concentration camps for all muslims indiscriminately, because... well...	[22:49]
mircea_popescu	"can't generalize".	[22:49]
decimation	right, becuase all muslims are peaceful	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Sunni Islam's leading centre of learning, called the attack "criminal" and said "Islam denounces any violence".	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	so it WAS sunni.	[22:56]
decimation	so it seems to me that this 'cell' topology is vulnerable in the sense that it is obvious who is relaying packets	[22:56]
decimation	third parties (required for routing packets) would know whose necks to squeeze	[22:57]
asciilifeform	decimation: you can't decrypt a single packet until a cell peers you	[22:58]
*	pete_dushenski (~pete_dush@unaffiliated/pete-dushenski/x-8158685) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	decimation the graph is very flat, with 100s of connections. you will have to squeeze a large fraction to disrupt anything.	[22:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.00064096 = 2.3395 BTC [-]	[22:58]
decimation	asciilifeform: right, but the intervening routers know the ip addresses of the cells	[22:58]
asciilifeform	decimation: or did you simply mean the proverbial future of the gasenwagen, where the mere act of transmitting cryptostrange is a gassing offense	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	only of the closest	[22:58]
decimation	it's true that if the network can be scaled this is less of a concern	[22:59]
asciilifeform	decimation: of some cells. no info on who they belong to (what keys), who the peers are, etc	[22:59]
decimation	it would be beneficial if nodes could connect via multiple 'ports' (vpns, etc)	[23:00]
asciilifeform	decimation: if you use udp, like i proposed, you can even have the mindfuck of a 'bar-bell shaped' cell - a 'multihomed' machine receives on one ip and transmits on another	[23:00]
asciilifeform	the receiver is, to anyone lacking a peerage key, just a black hole.	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this works on tcp too	[23:01]
decimation	asciilifeform: indeed. perhaps even hundreds of connections	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	decimation what difference does the port make.	[23:01]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: nope. does not work on tcp.	[23:01]
asciilifeform	because tcp establishes a connection	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	receiving on one ip and sending on another ? sure, why niot.	[23:01]
asciilifeform	that - yes	[23:01]
asciilifeform	but the receiver being indistinguishable from an empty wall plug - no.	[23:01]
decimation	mircea_popescu: receiving on one ip and rxing' on another is what I'm calling a 'port'	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	try the experiment, send handskakes to random hosts on port 1337	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	plenty answer.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	what of it.	[23:02]
asciilifeform	call it a goldbox.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	decimation ah i thought you meant specifically :x	[23:02]
asciilifeform	that's what the 'phreak' version (bridge of two telephone lines) was.	[23:02]
decimation	well, there's also the thought of puttint it all on tcp port 80 and putting fake http headers	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	Le troisième homme recherché, âgé de 18 ans, s'est rendu dans la nuit au commissariat de Charleville-Mézières, dans les Ardennes.	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	one surrendered.	[23:03]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20266 @ 0.00065389 = 13.2517 BTC [+] {2}	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	decimation really, this entire anonimity thing is moot. what exactly is going to happen ?	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	people still run torrents to this day.	[23:03]
asciilifeform	that part is just a bonus.	[23:04]
decimation	might as well wear a mustache while wearing fake glasses	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	"Selon le procureur, deux policiers ont également étés tués par les assaillants. L'un, le brigadier Franck Brinsolaro, du Service de la protection (SDLP, ex-SPHP) était chargé de la sécurité de Charb, selon des sources syndicales policières. L'autre, Ahmed Merabet, a été tué à l'extérieur, alors que les assaillants prenaient la fuite."	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	check it out,they killed another muslim guy. is this allowed ?!	[23:05]
decimation	!up pete_dushenski	[23:05]
decimation	!up decimation	[23:05]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to pete_dushenski	[23:05]
pete_dushenski	ty!	[23:05]
decimation	we are in jungle mode	[23:05]
pete_dushenski	hm so it seems	[23:06]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu that is/are correction, where was that from? i couldn't place it	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	http://www.contravex.com/2014/10/02/thank-your-lucky-trolls/ ?	[23:06]
assbot	Thank Your Lucky Trolls \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJSGti )	[23:07]
pete_dushenski	a merci!	[23:08]
pete_dushenski	corrigé!	[23:09]
pete_dushenski	some new material: http://www.contravex.com/2015/01/07/some-people-can-retire-and-some-people-cant-a-story-about-carrots/	[23:09]
assbot	Some people can retire and some people can’t: A story about carrots. \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1xH5PUO )	[23:09]
pete_dushenski	http://www.contravex.com/2015/01/08/its-called-the-soviet-harvard-illusion-for-a-reason-and-that-reason-is-joshua-greene/	[23:10]
assbot	It’s called the Soviet-HARVARD illusion for a reason and that reason is Joshua Greene. \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1xH5UI9 )	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the russian guy's wrong in pretty much all the particulars. they ran into tons of police. http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2015/01/07/attaque-contre-charlie-hebdo-ce-que-l-on-sait_1175371	[23:10]
assbot	Il est 11h30, deux hommes tirent «en rafale» dans «Charlie Hebdo» - Libération ... ( http://bit.ly/1xH5Xnb )	[23:10]
*	asciilifeform was not there and did not count the police.	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	«face aux préjugés, l'importance de se réunir» commie president is at least retarded.	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	hey, prejudice exists specifically because you're "reunited".	[23:12]
asciilifeform	'Here is a question for Minister Stoltenberg: Do appeals to (and enforcement of) tolerance make repeats of such incidents more frequent or less frequent, and, if so, why?' (old orlov article, http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/07/politics-of-unconscious.html )	[23:15]
assbot	ClubOrlov: Politics of the Unconscious ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJU2nP )	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	i dunno dood. do appeals to "ignore" the crying child rather than smack him over the head make crying children less common or more common ?	[23:16]
pete_dushenski	hey, prejudice exists specifically because you're "reunited". << heh. i made a similar point in the soviet-harvard article	[23:17]
pete_dushenski	basically, pluralistic/cosmopolitan cities are fashions, not some morally superior imperative	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	who's joshua greene again ?	[23:17]
pete_dushenski	they can work, but not by default	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	that's a good point.	[23:18]
pete_dushenski	"Professor of Psychology and Director of the Moral Cognition Lab at Harvard University"	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	also, they can not work without well organised oppression.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	heh mkay.	[23:18]
asciilifeform	see turkish example for how.	[23:18]
pete_dushenski	sure, the point being that there are an infinite number of ways they cannot work, and a few that they can	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[23:19]
pete_dushenski	but the solutions involve, yes, strong leadership	[23:19]
pete_dushenski	and also modification of the physical environment	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	i really like these "academics" whose contribution to the world consists on "this model is supported by the fact that brain area activation"	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	phrenology 2.0	[23:19]
pete_dushenski	not, as greene suggests, with typical progressive socialist lenses, "improving out thinking"	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	at least the computing turdmeisters don't (yet) prove systemd superiority by photographic cpus with tomograph units	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	photographing*	[23:20]
pete_dushenski	lol "the picture tells us..."	[23:20]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the 'brain activation' folks are simply a somewhat more 'photogenic' version of the rest of usg academia, where virtually every physical science 'result', almost without exception, concerns some spurious correlation of this and that	[23:20]
pete_dushenski	they're far better served "reading" mattise than body scans	[23:21]
asciilifeform	at least the computing turdmeisters don't (yet) prove systemd superiority by photograph << actually.	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i guess.	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	i get really indignant when marketeers try to sell spuriousness,	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	but in fact all of academia does it, for much more money.	[23:21]
*	hanbot has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[23:22]
pete_dushenski	and for "les prix"	[23:22]
pete_dushenski	like kim jong un's generals	[23:22]
asciilifeform	i make regular trips to my university maths/physical sciences library. there is a substantial comp-sci/discretes section there. i pull out, seriously, a book, one in three, random page - a graph. for almost precisely this, the comparison between the warm and the soft.	[23:22]
mircea_popescu	nah, themarketing cocksuckers give themselves tons of trophies	[23:22]
mircea_popescu	it's like porn minus the lube, seriously.	[23:22]
asciilifeform	great heuristic for what not to bother flipping through, but very frustrating re: how much space these take up on the shelves.	[23:22]
pete_dushenski	sounds... burny	[23:23]
*	CheckDavid (uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pmriuxupeyfxhivw) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:23]
asciilifeform	('graph' of the microshit office, 'comparison of efficiencies', vs graph theoretic kind)	[23:23]
scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/paypal-australia-regulate-bitcoin-businesses-not-individuals/	[23:25]
mariorz	mats MCM-Mike McNumpty midnightmagic mike_c mircea_popescu mius MobGod mod6 mquin Mrstickball mthreat	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	this discussion is reminding mircea_popescu to go check on the "oh, we are economists, looking before we leap, there's a small minority disagreeing" crowd	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	lmao -dev is almost as retarded as the forum by now.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	dgenr8 how about using the world's biggest bloom filter to prevent address reuse? it wouldn't add much to storage requirements	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	blockbits Can't wait until we have 20MB blocks. I've developed a easy to use web front-end for people to upload files to the blockchain, using scriptsigs to store data. they can retrieve files by simply pasting any TX. I've put aside a few hundreds thousand dollars to pay mining pools to mine my non-standard tx's for free. I was hoping we can increase the block size to 200MB... please make it as big as possible, my dat	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	a storage busin	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	etc,	[23:29]
pete_dushenski	lol!	[23:29]
pete_dushenski	maybe we should also make mining free, and use the scrypt fairness algorithm	[23:30]
pete_dushenski	http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/technology/intel-budgets-300-million-for-diversity.html?_r=2 << more lulz	[23:30]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1BJWkU1 )	[23:30]
pete_dushenski	because that's what profit is for, reinvestment	[23:31]
pete_dushenski	... in diversity	[23:31]
BingoBoingo	Seriously though what is this forced prevention of address reuse bullshit. Spz I recieve at address, spend from and input there, happen to recieve there again... Anything that prevents spending the later balances recieved is an attack.	[23:31]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile, gavin hasn't been on #bitcoin-dev in the past two weeks, and was mentioned maybe a coupla times in the interval.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	methinks the fake foundation derps are having a serious palatial moment these days.	[23:33]
BingoBoingo	bitcoin-dev exists better as a mailing list anyways.	[23:33]
pete_dushenski	palatial moment?	[23:33]
*	ziishu (~ziishu@c-50-188-48-131.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:34]
BingoBoingo	!up ziishu	[23:34]
*	assbot gives voice to ziishu	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	curious what shall come out of this.	[23:34]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: You know from that movie plot Mp mposted to trilema	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski you know when the retarded horse discovers that the pigs are actually having fun in the pig room ?	[23:34]
ziishu	greetings, any change of a bb wager for blockchain hardfork	[23:34]
ziishu	chance*	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	why not ? spec it.	[23:35]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i see i have some reading to catch up on :)	[23:35]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: http://trilema.com/2014/the-idea-for-a-great-film/	[23:35]
assbot	The idea for a great film... pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xHa9DA )	[23:35]
ziishu	lazy :) I was just thinking it would be a good idea	[23:35]
*	Dr-G2 (~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	sure lol.	[23:35]
*	mircea_popescu reads bb's link to see what this is!	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	oh. that also works lol.	[23:35]
pete_dushenski	i actually read that one!	[23:35]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Emperor Eunuch and the Barbarians	[23:35]
*	pete_dushenski thinks mp and bb are thinking of different articles	[23:36]
mircea_popescu	but i was thinking more of the moment when the color revolutionaries discxover their leader is really a sort of adonis.	[23:36]
BingoBoingo	That one's just my default thought when MP says palace or palatial, because we all know MP prefers a bunch of apartments spread around town to a single palace. Decentralize all of the residence!!!	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski i was refering to animal farm.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	you know when the "guard of the revolution" discovers that their supreme leader isn't really into the revolution at all ? that thing.	[23:37]
*	Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[23:38]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu aha yes	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	palatial moment. when the derps in -dev discover that well... gavin isn't really into bitcoin.	[23:38]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[23:38]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/09Z19TD.txt )	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	painful times.	[23:38]
pete_dushenski	i only saw the play. and while it was a splendid rendition, it was also some time ago. but i gets it nao!	[23:39]
*	[KS] has quit (Quit: BNC - http://bnc4free.com/)	[23:39]
pete_dushenski	anways, i must sadly depart. good evening to all!	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	if you've seen american century x, there's that moment when norton's character finds out the old dude was really in prison for fraud.	[23:39]
*	pete_dushenski has quit ()	[23:40]
BingoBoingo	And yet... the noise does not abate, but grows, and as it grows there's silence growing in the great hall too, under the marble arches, over the limpid pools. The emperor bids his guests eat, but they swallow knots, he bids them merry, but the one courtly concubine that starts to talk, trying to tell a joke, runs hoarse. And then, a centurion busts in, a different sort of man. Rugged, bearded, covered in soot and dried blood, he	[23:40]
BingoBoingo	screams that the West gate fell, and this is the last hour.	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	ahh, gripping huh.	[23:40]
BingoBoingo	Basically the story of everyone finding about Roger Ver's firecrackers and Uncle Shrem's bong.	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	well, i dunno how many people were seriously taking ver for some sort of leader.	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	maybe, i guess.	[23:42]
BingoBoingo	I dun imagine too many people of the kind in a position to support a leader. Still hurts when Ver blows his credibility on Gox's final days giving the scammer crowd room to pretend ther are Bitcoin 'Murica old hands.	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	is a point.	[23:44]
BingoBoingo	I mean fucking Jared Kenna having a renaissance and Homero Garza stepping in fresh off of ripping some New England mountain towns for WiFi?	[23:46]
mircea_popescu	heh.	[23:47]
*	PeterL (~peterl@unaffiliated/peterl) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:47]
BingoBoingo	!up PeterL	[23:47]
*	assbot gives voice to PeterL	[23:47]
PeterL	thanks	[23:47]
BingoBoingo	I mean even matonis seems kind of repentant about getting hooked into playing with Vessenes	[23:48]
*	twizt (18bc4672@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.188.70.114) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:51]
*	twizt (18bc4672@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.188.70.114) has left #bitcoin-assets	[23:52]

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Uncaring Markets See US Dollar Fall Against Peso Uruguayo And Brazil's Real While Peso Argentino Will Not Stop Shitting The Bed | Qntra (via Pingback)
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[...] their entirely hallucinated "wholesale" rate. This Argentine reinvention of the "convertible ruble" was initially proposed with the "tourist dollar" label and comes as Argentina once [...]

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