Forum logs for 06 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

decimation	svetlana: why doesn't someone fix the 'problem' with cloaks by re-writing ircd into something sane?	[00:03]
decimation	http://www.itworld.com/article/2864675/new-lie-detector-relies-on-fullbody-suit-for-better-accuracy.html << lol these guys want to sell gimp suits for hazing usg employees	[00:05]
assbot	New lie detector relies on full-body suit for better accuracy \| ITworld ... ( http://bit.ly/1tExxwi )	[00:05]
asciilifeform	decimation: await the next version, resembling 'iron maiden' ?	[00:06]
cazalla	thestringpuller, didja know even pokemon has cloud storage for pokemans with the pokemon bank	[00:06]
decimation	asciilifeform: yeah, it has 99% accuracy!!!	[00:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00065173 = 36.8879 BTC [+] {3}	[00:09]
thestringpuller	cazalla: ya. since black and white I thought	[00:11]
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cazalla	not the app one you download but the paid monthly service, i thought it was more recent but perhaps i am wrong, i bow to your knowledge as a pokemon master	[00:11]
thestringpuller	lol i'm not pokemone master	[00:12]
thestringpuller	not since 99'	[00:12]
thestringpuller	'99 ***	[00:12]
mircea_popescu	decimation there's a fundamental difference between those who use tools and those who make tools.	[00:14]
decimation	what about those who make 'tools'?	[00:14]
mircea_popescu	take a week to work in say a supermarket or something. the helplessness of common postmodern man (well, mostly woman) is impressive.	[00:14]
mircea_popescu	http://pastebin.com/mhmhnATj << tales from the ddos.	[00:19]
assbot	10 220.255.1.101 2 220.255.1.102 1 220.255.1.103 5 220 - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1tEz7hO )	[00:19]
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decimation	interesting, from singapore	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	teh qty of work poured into it is kinda lulzy.	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	New lie detector relies on full-body suit for better accuracy \| ITworld << makes me think... most dudes think they know fucking...	[00:26]
decimation	can you see if it is actually http traffic or is it more pnp reflection?	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	maybe it should be dildo.	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	decimation no it's http.	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	220.255.1.101 - - [05/Jan/2015:09:16:48 -0500] "GET etc	[00:27]
BingoBoingo	At this rate actual IPv4 addresses will never be exhausted. too many are simply occupied atm by lusers and spammzors	[00:30]
mircea_popescu	or derps.	[00:30]
mircea_popescu	ipv4 "not being enough" is a sad symptom of letting too many people in.	[00:30]
mircea_popescu	sort-of like "there are not enough places in college for all the kids"	[00:31]
mircea_popescu	backwards.	[00:31]
BingoBoingo	Except now there are too many places in college for the kids, because people dun wanna go no moar.	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	also that.	[00:33]
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mircea_popescu	so practical macroeconomics exercise. venezuela, which is in the shitter, quotes the dollar officially at 12 bolivars. meanwhile, black rate is ~170.	[00:34]
mircea_popescu	the govt is considering yielding, and bringing the official bolivar to 50ish.	[00:34]
mircea_popescu	should it do that, what's the likely evolution of the black market rate ?	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	http://cachecdn.cdnhost2000xl.com/tthumbs/2/27145.jpg and a vignette to help the thinking process along.	[00:35]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1xzeE34 )	[00:35]
BingoBoingo	Well, I imagine dilemma isn't too different from my present ability to buy a gallon of gas for $2 because America is dumping its entire oild reserve now to try to fuck Russia in this moment.	[00:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39050 @ 0.0006564 = 25.6324 BTC [+] {4}	[00:37]
mircea_popescu	http://i.imgur.com/lGxKLnX.gif	[00:45]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1xzfNr8 )	[00:45]
BingoBoingo	lol	[00:49]
decimation	http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/january/05/blowback-on-the-saudi-border-senior-general-killed/ << us isn't dumping oil, saudi arabia is, and not doing too well	[00:49]
assbot	The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : Blowback on the Saudi Border – Senior General Killed ... ( http://bit.ly/1BCgjnJ )	[00:49]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Old lead mining town there. Can't expect much brightness there.	[00:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00066138 = 22.0901 BTC [+] {3}	[00:59]
decimation	!up svetlana	[00:59]
*	assbot gives voice to svetlana	[00:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10281 @ 0.0006555 = 6.7392 BTC [-]	[01:07]
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BingoBoingo	!up nubbins`	[01:15]
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nubbins`	well hello	[01:15]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4870 @ 0.00066186 = 3.2233 BTC [+]	[01:19]
BingoBoingo	hello nubbins`	[01:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15050 @ 0.00064031 = 9.6367 BTC [-] {3}	[01:23]
*	badon has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[01:26]
*	assbot removes voice from svetlana	[01:29]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7050 @ 0.00063731 = 4.493 BTC [-]	[01:37]
*	assbot removes voice from nubbins`	[01:46]
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mircea_popescu	decimation amusingly enough pretty much everyone is selling under production	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	but they're not stopping.	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	now, why that is...	[01:53]
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mircea_popescu	if anyone cares, there was another ddos bout, but it didn't do anything.	[01:53]
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kakobrekla	wai you get all the fun	[01:54]
kakobrekla	:(	[01:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.00062519 = 3.0009 BTC [-]	[01:55]
mircea_popescu	i guess cause i'm taller ?	[01:57]
kakobrekla	not by that much...	[01:57]
mircea_popescu	maybe it's first past the pole.	[01:57]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00063731 = 10.9936 BTC [+]	[02:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00066266 = 19.1509 BTC [+] {2}	[02:12]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to nubbins`	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	o look, nubsy	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	finally found the internet end of the cable ?	[02:15]
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mircea_popescu	o look, another one lol.	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	neways, enough excitement for one night. laters!	[02:24]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[15:16]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[15:16]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[15:16]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[15:16]
chanserv	#op #bitcoin-assets	[15:19]
chanserv	op #bitcoin-assets	[15:19]
*	ChanServ gives channel operator status to mircea_popescu	[15:19]
mircea_popescu	http://i61.tinypic.com/aczr6x.png < lol	[15:20]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1Dg3cMZ )	[15:20]
mircea_popescu	http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/2015/01/xoom-corp-fraud-30m-corporate-cash-cfo.html cazalla / BingoBoingo	[15:21]
assbot	Xoom Corp. CFO resigns after fraudsters steal $30.8M in corporate cash - San Francisco Business Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dg3uDG )	[15:21]
mircea_popescu	pity i hadn't made a derp for THIS one.	[15:22]
*	assbot removes voice from pete_dushenski	[15:22]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski: ^fitting << hehe not bad eh.	[15:22]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14297 @ 0.00062758 = 8.9725 BTC [-] {2}	[15:23]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to pete_dushenski	[15:23]
pete_dushenski	prescient!	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	lol.	[15:24]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11628 @ 0.00065027 = 7.5613 BTC [+] {2}	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	i guess the largest shock to noobs is swallowing the actual history of mp-*, as it was.	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	too livresque for reason.	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	jurov: ;;later tell mircea_popescu care to send qntr shares over? << aye.	[15:24]
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BingoBoingo	http://qntra.net/2015/01/remittance-company-xoom-loses-corporate-cash-to-fraud/	[15:40]
assbot	Remittance Company Xoom Loses Corporate Cash To Fraud \| Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1IlQryE )	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	check that out, this new year was 1420070400. at some point during ny eve it crossed 1,42 trillion	[15:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14256 @ 0.000655 = 9.3377 BTC [+]	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo if you add another whole paragraph about how dollars are inherently unsafe, used by terrorists and probably not going to "make it", culled directly from the idiocy spewed by idiots about btc	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	i'd love you long time.	[15:42]
scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/remittance-company-xoom-loses-corporate-cash-to-fraud/	[15:42]
mircea_popescu	should be standard practice for any article mentioning fiat. the msm is doing it to us, obviously we'll be doing it to them. let teh public pick up the pieces.	[15:43]
BingoBoingo	k	[15:43]
pete_dushenski	https://twitter.com/Sathnam/status/552395263655280641	[15:46]
assbot	Love how Zuckerberg talks about books as if they are funky new app he has discovered. From /thetimes http://t.co/rum1YGcSt8	[15:46]
pete_dushenski	and i'm off. cheers!	[15:46]
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mircea_popescu	i really don't think they should be called books properly.	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	clearly they infringe on facebook intellectual propertahs.	[15:49]
BingoBoingo	updated	[15:49]
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mircea_popescu	i dun think it saved or something ?	[15:50]
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BingoBoingo	I didn't add much this time. Gotta think of more lines for future fiat articles.	[15:55]
mircea_popescu	yeh not very good.	[15:57]
mircea_popescu	mainly because it somehow elides that the problem is the dollar.	[15:58]
mircea_popescu	anyway, too lazy to go into the 2012-2013 collection of "media" derpage.	[16:00]
BingoBoingo	Takes time to get the venom ready. There's bound to be other stories to dip in the venom when its ready.	[16:01]
mircea_popescu	tis a point hehe	[16:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25925 @ 0.00065029 = 16.8588 BTC [-]	[16:07]
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mircea_popescu	it occurs to me... it must suck to be a lesbian. i mean a real one, the whatever, .4% demographic.	[16:09]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/mpex-smpoe-december-2014-statement/	[16:09]
mircea_popescu	not only are your odds of finding a like minded soul vanishingly tiny, but you're deluged in all the fat idiots who think that they may "hate men", as something that's at their disposal, and it's your job and obligation to humor them, because "you're different".	[16:09]
mircea_popescu	and will raise hell if you dare observe that they're the same stinky, unbearable, impossible idiots that men think they are, pretending lesbianism is not a magical cure.	[16:10]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile gay men have for one thing five to ten times as many legit other gay men to meet, and looser dudes make up "men going alone" clubs instead of deciding they're now gay and the gay community must turn itself into mcdonalds to accomodate them.	[16:11]
thestringpuller	cazalla: back yet?	[16:14]
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bitstein	Gavin just posted this. Thought y'all would be interested: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2015/01/looking-before-scaling-up-leap.html	[16:20]
assbot	GavinTech: Looking before the Scaling Up Leap ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOTk8l )	[16:20]
asciilifeform	axe-time, sword-time, coming closer	[16:20]
mircea_popescu	i can't be arsed to read blogspot junk.	[16:21]
mircea_popescu	maybe if someone important said something. maybe.	[16:21]
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TomServo	What would Gavin be referring to when he says "the reference implementation"?	[16:27]
mircea_popescu	systemd, perhaps.	[16:28]
TomServo	heh	[16:28]
mircea_popescu	i dunno that they have much other reference.	[16:28]
mircea_popescu	but anyway, gavin hasn't been making any sense for a long time now.	[16:28]
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TomServo	Yes, and reading this makes that ring even more true.	[16:33]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla check out the power and influence of bitbet. so, there's http://bitbet.us/bet/962/obama-approval-rating-over-45-in-2014/	[16:41]
assbot	BitBet - Obama Approval Rating over 45% in 2014 :: 0.16 B (53%) on Yes, 0.14 B (47%) on No \| closed 2 weeks 5 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOWMjn )	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	now check out gallup : http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/Barack-Obama-Presidential-Job-Approval.aspx	[16:41]
assbot	Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama \| Gallup Historical Data & Trends	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	NEVER throughout the year has it been over 45	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	except they shoved a 46 in there at the end for the first week of 2015. which, of course, includes three days of 2014.	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	this was a coincidence, right ? and gallup actually conducts its polls, like irl, right ?	[16:42]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00061584 = 10.6232 BTC [-]	[17:16]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu achtung	[17:22]
mircea_popescu	hm ?	[17:22]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu incoming pgp	[17:23]
mircea_popescu	coolness.	[17:23]
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kakobrekla	yes, the power of coincidence is great power.	[17:25]
Apocalyptic	wtf blogspot doesn't load at all without js, seriously... bitstein could you post a text pastebin ?	[17:25]
bitstein	http://pastebin.com/YfQLnKQz	[17:26]
assbot	Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1xBMVyG )	[17:26]
Apocalyptic	thank you	[17:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5575 @ 0.00062973 = 3.5107 BTC [+]	[17:27]
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mircea_popescu	scoopbot -fetch	[17:44]
mircea_popescu	!echo scoopbot -fetch	[17:45]
mircea_popescu	hm.	[17:45]
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thestringpuller	jurov: thank you	[17:46]
mircea_popescu	bitstein thanks for the pastebin.	[17:47]
kakobrekla	heh, i sent some ppl to check the logs sometimes, mostly i get back "what language is this, english?"	[17:47]
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mircea_popescu	i guess it's time to write a post about all this.	[17:48]
bitstein	You're welcome	[17:49]
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rithm	20mb blocks eh	[17:52]
rithm	200mb blocks even	[17:52]
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scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/oil-theory/	[17:55]
thestringpuller	lol scoopy scoopy doo	[17:56]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: do we have to bring our own pitchforks or will they be provided for us?	[17:56]
asciilifeform	own	[17:56]
kakobrekla	>Oil does not come out of the ground naturally,	[17:57]
asciilifeform	presently true	[17:57]
kakobrekla	well it was discovered by coming out of the ground naturally.	[17:57]
asciilifeform	was.	[17:57]
mircea_popescu	wtf was the buterin scamcoin called, eleuterium ?	[17:58]
mircea_popescu	eleusys ?	[17:58]
asciilifeform	'etherium'	[17:58]
mircea_popescu	a ty	[17:58]
Apocalyptic	wasn't it "ethereum" ?	[18:01]
TomServo	Yes.	[18:02]
asciilifeform	hm	[18:02]
kakobrekla	oh wow they had 8 POC implementations so far.	[18:04]
kakobrekla	they will run out of money by the 60th.	[18:05]
TomServo	Another 2k or so left their wallet recently, incidentally.	[18:06]
kakobrekla	how much left?	[18:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19387 @ 0.00063255 = 12.2632 BTC [+]	[18:06]
Apocalyptic	they will be resupplied as long as derps have money I fear	[18:06]
kakobrekla	left to leave	[18:06]
asciilifeform	waterfall.	[18:06]
kakobrekla	i doubt they will get resupplied tbh	[18:06]
TomServo	17,521.36256657	[18:06]
Apocalyptic	kakobrekla, wait for the new exclusive presale of new ethers, -50% NOW !	[18:07]
TomServo	Only gone down from the 27,000ish peak around Sep 1	[18:07]
kakobrekla	muh.	[18:07]
asciilifeform	i dare to suggest a possible term for another thing the ethereum folks do; 'chump fracking'	[18:08]
asciilifeform	just as in hydraulic fracturing, foreign substance is pumped into the earth to liberate the goods,	[18:08]
kakobrekla	which is ?	[18:08]
asciilifeform	synthetic chumps (btc stolen by usg organs) is pumped into eth	[18:09]
kakobrekla	paper btc	[18:09]
kakobrekla	?	[18:09]
asciilifeform	not only to drive waterfall directly, but to create an appearance of a 'happening', 'hot' chumpatron	[18:09]
asciilifeform	and bring in the naturally-occurring but recalcitrant chumpers.	[18:09]
kakobrekla	as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund	[18:09]
kakobrekla	silbert*	[18:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13231 @ 0.00061737 = 8.1684 BTC [-] {2}	[18:12]
kakobrekla	how much did he have under his belt anyway, 20k, 200k ? i forgot	[18:12]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9681 @ 0.00061415 = 5.9456 BTC [-]	[18:13]
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mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo / cazalla : http://trilema.com/2015/if-you-go-on-a-bitcoin-fork-irrespective-which-scammer-proposes-it-you-will-lose-your-bitcoins/	[18:15]
TomServo	Found a coidesk article from April saying 100k	[18:15]
assbot	If you go on a Bitcoin fork, irrespective which scammer proposes it, you will lose your Bitcoins. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgNTE2 )	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	sort-of news.	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund << kinda my understanding as well. but hey, if his customers are happy with it...	[18:16]
mircea_popescu	oh and bitstein ^	[18:16]
mircea_popescu	now if mod6 an' ben_vulpes + whoever else can contribute get snappy with the actual foudnation work, the beheading of gavin's pretense will come exactly in time for a smooth transition to a muchly superior alternative.	[18:18]
mircea_popescu	i dun imagine they'll pretend like they "tested" it in less than a few months, so there's still a season i'd guess.	[18:19]
*	asciilifeform feels guilt re: mod6-vuples foundation, almost like it were a bastard son he can't quite afford to feed	[18:19]
*	asciilifeform is sitting on a shameful quantity of unfinished patches for their apparatus	[18:19]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu: which one(s) of you is even doing the merges, anyway ?	[18:22]
mircea_popescu	i thought jurov	[18:22]
asciilifeform	aha	[18:22]
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mircea_popescu	wasn't he maintaining the list an errything ?	[18:23]
asciilifeform	list, yes. wasn't sure about the tree itself	[18:23]
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*	asciilifeform vaguely recalls ben_vulpes having wangled together an autobuilder of sorts	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	ah	[18:24]
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mircea_popescu	and, of course, much like in the case of the "ethereum short" nobody actually bought, here is me looking for counterparties willing to buy gavin-bitcoins on the understanding that the transaction will only be valid on the gavin fork, but not in actual bitcoin.	[18:28]
asciilifeform	the 'gaw' crap boggles my mind. how is this shit even still possible.	[18:28]
mircea_popescu	ideally 1k+ piles.	[18:28]
asciilifeform	it has to be chump fracking.	[18:29]
mircea_popescu	yes, it is.	[18:29]
kakobrekla	gaw is not usg powered	[18:30]
kakobrekla	just greed.	[18:30]
asciilifeform	on the contrary, synthetic chumpfracking fluid is a usg product.	[18:30]
*	mquin (~mquin@freenode/staff/mquin) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:30]
mircea_popescu	stupidity i thought, but yes.	[18:30]
mircea_popescu	who implied us powering ?	[18:30]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to mquin	[18:31]
kakobrekla	ascii did with the fracking.	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform nah, they're naturally that clueless.	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	i mean if you must, in a very 3rd hand way, "through ruining public schools" or w/e.	[18:31]
asciilifeform	from whence come the mass of idiot coin, though	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	what brings you over mquin ?	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform from the fertile union of a very strong "must succeed" ideology and a very narrow "math is hard" cluelessness.	[18:32]
mquin	mircea_popescu: we seem to be getting questions about this channel and cloaking quite regularly lately	[18:32]
mircea_popescu	!s from:t	[18:32]
assbot	19 results for 'from:t' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3At	[18:32]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/if-you-go-on-a-bitcoin-fork-irrespective-which-scammer-proposes-it-you-will-lose-your-bitcoins/	[18:32]
mircea_popescu	there's the previous discussion with t[homas] ?	[18:32]
mircea_popescu	anyway, includes a pastebin of the #freenode discussion etc.	[18:33]
kakobrekla	so if the majority of miners accepts the fork mpex is out of luck ?	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	if a majority of miners accepts the fork they still have to relay and mine all my txn.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	for as long as there's one miner that doesn't, however...	[18:34]
kakobrekla	aha youll open a pool.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	this is one of those requiring absolute consensus.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla all i need really is a tiny miner. even gpus will do.	[18:35]
mircea_popescu	heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while.	[18:35]
mircea_popescu	the fake coins they mine won't actually be worth anything once the fake chain dies. sort-of longest orphan block in history.	[18:36]
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kakobrekla	vs the gpu miners :)	[18:36]
mircea_popescu	hey, this is what people with gpus wanted all along, right ? a chance to mine again.	[18:36]
mircea_popescu	if any of the asic farms is stupid enough to update (which is sort-of doubt, but hey, stupidity is bottomless) then they get their wish.	[18:37]
asciilifeform	'lenin is young again!' (tm)	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	notably, at absolutely no cost. it's like a gift.	[18:37]
kakobrekla	i dont think asics needs upgrading	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	who can say no to gifts.	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla "upgrading" in the limited sense of building on a 1mb+ block.	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	which no miner currently does.	[18:38]
kakobrekla	yes but switching is not something that takes time or resources.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	well no, switching doesn't. but mining in the dead chain takes as many resources as you're willing to throw at it.	[18:39]
kakobrekla	for pool op is something like apt-get update and done	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	might as well mine the wall.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless, if anyone wants to make a pool for the purpose that can't hurt anything.	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2015/open-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111208	[18:41]
assbot	[OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgUhLt )	[18:41]
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*	mircea_popescu gives voice to artifexd	[18:42]
mircea_popescu	artifexd ya was just looking for you in the list lol	[18:43]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to FabianB_	[18:43]
artifexd	I have decided that I like this ircd project.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	o hey.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	can you actually do it ?	[18:43]
artifexd	I like it to the point of being willing to commit time to do it.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	am i s/open/artifexd/ ?	[18:44]
asciilifeform	http://trilema.com/2015/open-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111210	[18:44]
assbot	[OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgV4fg )	[18:44]
asciilifeform	answerd	[18:44]
artifexd	Would you like to discuss in here or keep it in the comments?	[18:45]
*	asciilifeform believes that the scheme as originally described is disastrously mistaken	[18:45]
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mircea_popescu	coments best!	[18:45]
artifexd	mircea_popescu> am i s/open/artifexd/ ? << huh?	[18:47]
rithm	port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think	[18:49]
TomServo	Nah, just leetist	[18:49]
rithm	7000 would be more in line as a "standard" irc port with security	[18:49]
asciilifeform	but this isn't irc !	[18:50]
TomServo	a port is a port	[18:50]
rithm	riiiight	[18:50]
asciilifeform	has no one actually -read- the thing ?	[18:50]
artifexd	mircea_popescu> can you actually do it ? << There are mad amounts of detail to work out. That said, yes. I can do it.	[18:50]
rithm	so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing	[18:50]
rithm	i forgot it's unicorn land please continue	[18:50]
kakobrekla	i think the idea is to fix shit, not make it more beautiful.	[18:51]
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rithm	seems like centralized mechanism to prevent mitm, really only becomes decentralize with more /links	[18:52]
asciilifeform	centralized ?	[18:52]
asciilifeform	rithm: did you actually read mircea_popescu's article ?	[18:53]
rithm	i think i'm looking at it now	[18:53]
*	kakobrekla gives voice to punkman	[18:53]
punkman	hilarious uncloaking exploits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1OHO4FJvKs	[18:53]
assbot	DerbyCon 3 0 2306 Uncloaking Ip Addresses On Irc Derek Callaway - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgWMx6 )	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	artifexd am i editing the thing to reflect you're doin' it.	[18:53]
rithm	b. A list of IPs	[18:54]
rithm	the "thing" scales with /links to other "things"	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think << yes, i do.	[18:54]
rithm	so the client is the server in this scenario or not? is it more p2p or not because i'm not seeing this definition in the language	[18:55]
punkman	(and some text related to video http://decal.sdf.org/spotfedsonline/ )	[18:55]
rithm	traditional irc is clinet/server but this isn't irc	[18:55]
assbot	Spot The Fed: Online Edition ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgXcDI )	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	there is no "Server"	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	much like in bitcoin, some will run larger clients which people can reliably connect to.	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	but they'd still be running the client code, more or less.	[18:56]
rithm	if it scales verically like "interaction" with this thing creates a new "server" then that doesn't sound centralized	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing << interoperability with what ?	[18:57]
asciilifeform	active thread on mircea_popescu's site, btw	[18:57]
rithm	not that architecture, but I'm not reading that definition on trilema	[18:57]
rithm	TFA title says ircd but it's not something to interoperate with any known ircd correct	[18:57]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00061415 = 5.4659 BTC [-]	[18:58]
mircea_popescu	correct.	[18:58]
asciilifeform	perhaps misleading title, 'better ircd', i admit i almost postponed reading it when first saw on account of this	[18:58]
mircea_popescu	ftr, the car was called "a better horse buggy" originally.	[18:58]
punkman	forward secrecy would be nice if possible	[18:59]
mircea_popescu	if one doesn't buy into the entire "branding, even if or especially if before the fact" one's stuck with this. i don't mind it so much.	[18:59]
mircea_popescu	punkman forward secrecy is a one on one affair, mostly. the salt is supposed to implement as much as it's possible, and the lack of signatures.	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	perhaps i don't actually see the whole ball there tho.	[19:00]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i argue that all transmissions must be signed, if this is to be the thing it is really meant to be.	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	but seriously, let's move all discussion on the article, otherwise it'll be hard to fish from logs later on	[19:00]
*	mircea_popescu shall make further responses there.	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rk3it/score_so_far_gavins_fork_0btc_mps_fork_killer_1/ << lol ty mr hahs, whoever you are.	[19:02]
assbot	Score so far: Gavin's fork, 0BTC \| MP's fork killer, 1 million BTC? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgYLBR )	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/ << updated.	[19:06]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgZHpO )	[19:06]
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ben_vulpes	heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while. << why if 99% of miners move onto that chain, would anyone ever move off?	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	because they can't spend the fake btc they "mined"	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	(i don't mean technically, i mean financially, nobody's accepting it for value)	[19:17]
jurov	but if 99% of miners move to the fake chain, then it will take years till difficulty adjusts.. or we§d have to fork it and adjust anyway	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	from the perspective of the blockchain, the situation is identical to "what woud happen if 99% of miners turned their rigs off"	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	well... nothing ? once they turn them back on they can mine again.	[19:18]
*	kakobrekla doesnt have great hopes for this upcoming blockchain size war.	[19:19]
Apocalyptic	jurov, good point	[19:19]
jurov	and how it comes financially? suddenly the garzikcoin stop being excnaged for stuff cuz mircea said so?	[19:19]
jurov	*exchanged	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	no, just, mircea's bitcoin in its gavin aspect is being sold. so miners of gavin chain will have to compete with that.	[19:20]
punkman	btw the irc services library used by freenode is EOL'd	[19:20]
punkman	"There will not be another release cycle after Atheme 7.2. We encourage the community to fork Atheme and choose the most suitable forks to drive IRC forward. To this end, we will maintain Atheme 7.2 as a suitable base for forking until October 31, 2015, with all services terminating on October 31, 2016."	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	and merchants accepting it will have to somehow finance the risk, too.	[19:20]
Apocalyptic	kakobrekla, as in you doubt the outcome will be in favour of b-a ?	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	i kinda doubt they actually have the guts to go through with it,	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	but hey.	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	you don't always get the maximal fun out of situations.	[19:21]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu, artifexd, other interested folks: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111218	[19:22]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dh3OC1 )	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	jurov that 99% figure is mostly a joke. look at the exchanges as they are, think what even a 50k wall would do at say 30 usd per. how exactly are thjose 99% of miners going to finance operations for a week when their block reward is worth ~750 bux ?	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	at best gavin will manage to crush the gavin-bitcoin to whatever it was in 2012 and that's that.	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	nobody's pouring out peta hashes for free for weeks on end.	[19:24]
jurov	you mean you will dump 50k gavins?	[19:24]
mircea_popescu	i will dump all my bitcoin, on the gavin fork.	[19:24]
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kakobrekla	you know why we have miners?	[19:25]
artifexd	asciilifeform: lol	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	show teh us how dumping's actually done. what, dja have any idea how long i pined for an opportuniy to play the easy side of this game ?	[19:25]
kakobrekla	cause they cant do math.	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla yeah, right.	[19:25]
artifexd	asciilifeform: I was typing up that exact same idea	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	not what i've been hearing from teh chinese folks on the topic, but w/e, gavin's more than welcome to persevere in his usg-is-the-world delusions.	[19:25]
kakobrekla	they will in fact mine with ev-	[19:25]
*	mircea_popescu gives voice to akisora	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla for how long ?	[19:26]
asciilifeform	the miners in the sealed mine will mine on body fat for as long as they can.	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	1mn a day. how long ?	[19:26]
akisora	Thanks. I was wondering how things worked here since gribble is offline	[19:26]
akisora	I can't auth on gribble. Not that I have any ratings	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	they work... barely.	[19:26]
kakobrekla	ill just say my guess is better than sexygingers.	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	well sure.	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless, this "they'll mine at -ev" is from the days of gpus.	[19:27]
kakobrekla	nah.	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	otherwise, miner farms are actually pretty stretched as it is, financially.	[19:27]
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asciilifeform	artifexd: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111220	[19:29]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dh5lIy )	[19:29]
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kakobrekla	dude, vps is like a dollar a month.	[19:30]
kakobrekla	(for the purpose of bouncer)	[19:31]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: there are folks about (some even in #b-a) who have a habit of using something other than an actual computer for their daily work (i won't point fingers)	[19:32]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: they will succumb to the temptation of running the entire demon, and not merely a proxy, on the 'bouncer.'	[19:33]
kakobrekla	i thought nobody even has an actual computer.	[19:33]
asciilifeform	doctor will say to patient 'if it hurts, stop doing it'	[19:33]
asciilifeform	but the entire problem is entirely avoidable	[19:33]
asciilifeform	minimal standard of computer for purpose of this thread	[19:34]
kakobrekla	:)	[19:34]
asciilifeform	box that will compile and run an unpretentious posix demon without major handholding	[19:34]
kakobrekla	context always fucks everything up.	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	no kako, it's u! not context!	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	:D	[19:35]
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mircea_popescu	jurov this discussion entirely elides the more important point of "why in the fuck would miners even consider a proposal that inflates their main ware".	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	the block rewards keeps going down. how are they going to make money if there's no pressure on txn to pay ? is gavin going to give them it ?	[19:37]
Apocalyptic	this falls to kako's argument "they can't do math"	[19:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.00064331 = 5.1143 BTC [+]	[19:39]
jurov	we don't know who the damn miners actually are anymore	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	Apocalyptic kako's argument needs a "and the govt will print money and give it to them. forever" companion.	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	otherwise, it's as good as the argument that "my horse doesn't need to eat"	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	jurov "we". i kinda do.	[19:40]
jurov	i see. so you are certain these entities are mostly motivated by profit.	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[19:42]
Apocalyptic	"rational entities" will be sufficient imo	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	even the statal actors have a limited budget.	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	this war exceeds that.	[19:42]
asciilifeform	the only way enemy could win this hypothetical engagement is if he can set his fork up to 'catabolically break down' the original bitcoin network ( mircea_popescu's army on the board )	[19:47]
thestringpuller	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/ << these comments are giving me brain cancer	[19:47]
asciilifeform	say, by engineering a continuous double-spend attempt into normal operation of 'usgcoin' miners	[19:47]
asciilifeform	(double-spend on the 'actual' net, naturally)	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller the lulzy part in there is "clearly the thing that's not needed but we kept repeating that it is, is in fact needed. because...uh..."	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform what'd that do ?	[19:48]
akisora	did Gavin just say there are special rules for coinbase??	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	hm ?	[19:51]
akisora	In the article linked in the reddit thestringpuller posted Gavin said "2. There are special rules for 'coinbase' transactions: there can be only one coinbase transaction per block, it must be the first transaction, etc."	[19:51]
akisora	What the fuck is that? lol	[19:52]
akisora	I don't understand what is going on with that	[19:52]
Apocalyptic	akisora, coinbase transactions, not "Coinbase" the company	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	akisora this was always the case.	[19:53]
akisora	oh okay :)	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	the "coinbase" tx is the tx that pays the miners for the block mined, that 25 btc	[19:53]
thestringpuller	d00d	[19:53]
thestringpuller	my iq is dropping	[19:53]
thestringpuller	i need to stop reading this	[19:54]
thestringpuller	but it's like watching a really bad movie	[19:54]
thestringpuller	you cna't look away	[19:54]
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[]bot	Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under 200$ before Feb" http://bitbet.us/bet/1095/ Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.03161579 BTC. Current weight: 88,975.	[19:57]
thestringpuller	!up hanbot	[19:58]
*	assbot gives voice to hanbot	[19:58]
thestringpuller	np	[19:59]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: what'd that do ? << if your estimate in 'this was exceeds that [necessary budget]' is correct - it will do nothing.	[20:09]
asciilifeform	*war	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	perhaps.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	the us has a lengthy history of getting involved in wars it can't afford	[20:10]
hanbot	BingoBoingo http://pastebin.com/npDQM1iT (re xoom piece)	[20:11]
assbot	Despite Xoom's vague assertion that "it doesn't think that customer data or cust - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1yxYKHX )	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	and the us muppets are currently shivering to death in a "democratic" ukraine that CLEARLY had to have its block sizes increased.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	so... you never know.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	i always hope on the side of getting to do some raping. and pillaging.	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	ohai hanbot :D	[20:11]
asciilifeform	'here's a lesson all must learn: first you pillage, then you burn'	[20:11]
hanbot	hallo!	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	lol@ piece.	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	totally should contrib moar to qntra.	[20:13]
asciilifeform	'going the way of linux' << depressing	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	depression : just another public service i offer.	[20:16]
asciilifeform	'wagner: free; cyanide - extra five pfennigs'	[20:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14962 @ 0.00064907 = 9.7114 BTC [+]	[20:17]
mircea_popescu	http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/birthday-dirge-faq/ btw.	[20:19]
assbot	[FAQ] Lyrics for The Birthday Dirge ... ( http://bit.ly/1yy0yAJ )	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	Burn the castle, storm the keep, kill the women, save the sheep.	[20:20]
asciilifeform	'May your deeds with sword and axe / Equal those with sheep and yaks.'	[20:20]
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scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-snsa-november-2014-and-december-2014-joint-statement/	[20:29]
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asciilifeform	ty mircea_popescu	[20:34]
asciilifeform	did a series of small asteroids just hit fleanode or what.	[20:34]
asciilifeform	the node i was plugged into - is dead now.	[20:34]
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asciilifeform	(incidentally, at least every other fleanode host has broken 'sasl' auth. learn which ones, if your client has 'auto-connect' to #b-a)	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	"Saudi Arabia shipped 54 percent of its crude oil exports to Asia in 2013, with another 17 percent to the United States, according to Saudi Aramco's annual report. It shipped just 5.4 percent to Europe and 6.7 percent to the Mediterranean. In total, crude exports ran at 6.8 million bpd."	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	"petrodollar" indeed lol	[20:35]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform sasl is dysfunctional anyway.	[20:36]
asciilifeform	well yes. but it is 'duct tape' for the cloak thing.	[20:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6738 @ 0.00063478 = 4.2771 BTC [-]	[20:36]
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*	asciilifeform makes small 'public service announcement' that, with gribble dead, any one of us present company could be hitler.	[20:38]
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asciilifeform	or rather, at any time could have been hitler, but previously the fuhrer would have been required to put in a little sweat and pwn fleanode wholesale, whereas now he just needs to break nickserv	[20:39]
asciilifeform	or just slip in a few packets	[20:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31400 @ 0.00065281 = 20.4982 BTC [+] {5}	[20:42]
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asciilifeform	http://cryptome.org/2015/01/snowden-nsa-pay-for-silence.htm << mega-lol	[21:10]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/13Yw9O5 )	[21:10]
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asciilifeform	'PARASTOO IS INFORMING THAT "CPLD AND FPGA BITSTREAMS" RUNNING THE SECURITY MODULES IN BOTH GROUND STATIONS AND MANY OF THE HOVERING ACTUAL SATELLITES THAT ARE LINKED TO SOME TARGETED NOCs ARE FULLY DECRYPTED ..AND WE FOUND -- WHILE DOING SATANIC LAUGHS -- SOME OF THESE UGLY CODES ARE NOT EVEN COMPATIBLE WITH BASIC NIST'S FIPS SECURITY GRADE GIVEN TO THESE PRODUCTS WITH $+APPLAUSE .'	[21:12]
asciilifeform	^ good 'dissociated press' (shannonizer) output? or actual human speaking ?	[21:12]
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asciilifeform	( quoted from http://cryptome.org/2015/01/parastoo-opjfk.htm )	[21:12]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/13YwznG )	[21:12]
BingoBoingo	!up muh_buttcoins	[21:13]
*	assbot gives voice to muh_buttcoins	[21:13]
muh_buttcoins	hi	[21:13]
BingoBoingo	Hallo muh_buttcoins	[21:13]
asciilifeform	any scholars of farsi lang. here ? is above a plausible eng. mistranslation? and if so, of what.	[21:13]
muh_buttcoins	is speculating on the price discouraged here	[21:13]
BingoBoingo	muh_buttcoins: Not entirely	[21:14]
muh_buttcoins	what % of your net wealth do you think is a good amount to invest in bitcoin	[21:15]
BingoBoingo	muh_buttcoins: It depends. What % of your net wealth do you presently depend on for provisioning a roof and some food?	[21:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00064556 = 19.5282 BTC [-] {3}	[21:16]
muh_buttcoins	maybe 3-5%	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform how would someone know if sometyhing's a mistranslation absernt source matrerial ?	[21:17]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: occasionally there are idiomatic residual clues	[21:17]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: can't expect hard proof of anything whatsoever, sure.	[21:17]
asciilifeform	what, for instance, is 'doing satanic laughs ?'	[21:18]
BingoBoingo	Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know.	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	afaik no farsi in gtranslate, so there is that	[21:18]
asciilifeform	the mere emission of a 'muhahahaha' - or some more specific activity peculiar to reverse-engineering purloined fpga bitstreams ?	[21:18]
BingoBoingo	hanbot: Is that a comment or a article submission?	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	prolly laughing ass off.	[21:18]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it is marked 'persian' there.	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	muh_buttcoins http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-assets-rules-and-regulations/	[21:19]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets rules and regulations pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/13Yy3yb )	[21:19]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: and works, about as well as russian-english (which is to say, very threadbare)	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	esp 2, interesting in your case.	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	so google for انجام می خندد شیطانی then	[21:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.QNTR] 7653 @ 0.00015 = 1.148 BTC [-]	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	check it out, didn't break log! yay.	[21:21]
*	asciilifeform blows dust off textbook	[21:21]
muh_buttcoins	Do you guys think the Bitstamp owners stole the coins and made up the hacked story?	[21:21]
asciilifeform	muh_buttcoins: if you were to meet with proof that it was so, or was not so, would the coins thereby unsteal themselves ?	[21:22]
asciilifeform	muh_buttcoins: i'm genuinely curious as to why you would like to learn the answer to that question	[21:23]
muh_buttcoins	Just seeking opinions on it	[21:23]
asciilifeform	how could you ever hope to learn it?	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	blockchain technologies ?	[21:24]
muh_buttcoins	...	[21:24]
muh_buttcoins	wat	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	anyway, go read the log, come back in half year or thereabouts.	[21:27]
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asciilifeform	one time, isaac asimov (iirc ?) got tired of idiots badgering him with questions re: subjects in which he could not possibly give informed answer, and some of these even retorted with 'please just give me your gut feeling!' to which he answered that he does not think with his gut, and the questioner is welcome to keep the company of those who do - elsewhere.	[21:27]
kakobrekla	lol only now i notice, http://shrani.si/f/47/q8/C6Jp4Tl/cpu-day.png	[21:32]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1s39lrX )	[21:32]
kakobrekla	try harder next time.	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	it almost looks liek nippals	[21:32]
kakobrekla	bout 600 ips worth.	[21:33]
asciilifeform	600?! why so threadbare.	[21:33]
kakobrekla	idk, twas a http flood , wp prolly	[21:34]
kakobrekla	i dont care enough to check the logs.	[21:34]
asciilifeform	there's an interesting similarity in the reactions of the freenode folks (quoted in earlier thread) and that of the wp fool (quoted in recent article on mircea_popescu's site)	[21:35]
asciilifeform	(reaction to learning of ddos)	[21:35]
kakobrekla	prolly same dude that is pestering trilema/qntra these days.	[21:35]
kakobrekla	only bb is up tho :p	[21:35]
asciilifeform	well yes, but the reactions of the 'nah it isn't our fault, and by the way have you tried plugging it in? and it ain't a bug, but a feature, at any rate'	[21:36]
kakobrekla	aha	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth.	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again,	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	but on the whole... kinda mcdonald-ish, willy nilly.	[21:36]
asciilifeform	there's also the interesting fact (i shall offer no attempt at proof here) that a significant chunk of fleanode traffic is botnet c&c	[21:37]
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asciilifeform	'mcdonalds' is 'democratic' not only for leprous bomzhes, but for rats, mice, roaches.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	that part nobody can actually do much against.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is.	[21:38]
asciilifeform	wouldn't suggest that it is their duty to play exterminator	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	what there isn't is "forbidden types of content"	[21:38]
asciilifeform	but when there are more mice than human eater in the restaurant, mass-wise, it reflects poorly.	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	well... humans are expensive.	[21:39]
artifexd	mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual?	[21:39]
asciilifeform	artifexd: answer not obvious from the article ?	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others.	[21:40]
mircea_popescu	arguably ircd isn't really any of these, but going by intent rather than practice.	[21:40]
*	asciilifeform also points out that, as written, apparatus is also meant to replace the classical 'wot'	[21:40]
mircea_popescu	obviously, will have to.	[21:41]
asciilifeform	or at least offer a parachute of it.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace.	[21:41]
asciilifeform	as late as 18th c. actually.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	right.	[21:41]
asciilifeform	as well as the actual punishments.	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2006/Jun/843 << old lilo drama, if anyone's unsatisfied by the piles of bitcoin drama we have fresh on tap.	[21:42]
assbot	Full Disclosure: The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo of irc.freenode.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3aRdz )	[21:42]
*	asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.)	[21:42]
mircea_popescu	(possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs)	[21:43]
asciilifeform	i vaguely recall reading his obituary ?	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	yeah died at some point last decade	[21:44]
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mircea_popescu	reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting.	[21:47]
scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by hanbot: http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-xoom-theft-and-the-future-of-the-dollar/	[21:49]
kakobrekla	yeah you basically invented ethereum or something	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	eh ?	[21:49]
kakobrekla	>As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node).	[21:50]
kakobrekla	very blockchain 2.0	[21:50]
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mircea_popescu	heh	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	on a lark i connect to efnet. first server simpyl fails to connect. 2nd dumps this http://pastebin.com/epe6WQBC	[21:50]
assbot	* - Breaking one or more of the following policies will get you * - /Kill'ed an - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c2d0 )	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	srsly ?	[21:50]
asciilifeform	artifexd, others: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111236	[21:51]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c30w )	[21:51]
artifexd	!s erasure coding	[21:52]
assbot	5 results for 'erasure coding' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=erasure+coding	[21:52]
asciilifeform	artifexd: there are several known ways of doing a 'fountain code' (term of art) - where a bitstring, B, is transformed into a number, N, of shorter bitstrings, whereby X of N can be collected, in any order, and with certain quantity of errors permissible, to reconstitute B.	[21:55]
asciilifeform	X*N is naturally larger than B. by how much - depends on particular algorithm chosen.	[21:55]
asciilifeform	the most classic, 'naive' algo for this, known to nearly everyone under one name or another, is reed-solomon.	[21:56]
asciilifeform	but very high overhead.	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	right, this is an excessive approach	[21:57]
asciilifeform	this is one of the very few mathematical/computation subfields where there was real progress in the past twenty years.	[21:57]
artifexd	I fear that the more complicated the math, the more likely I am to screw it up.	[21:58]
asciilifeform	something like 'raptor' algorithm gives overhead of, iirc, 3-5%.	[21:58]
asciilifeform	artifexd: a good compromise, probably, would be the Luby transform.	[21:58]
asciilifeform	it can be implemented without unusual effort or mathematical education.	[21:59]
artifexd	Is "can be transmitted via carrier pigeon" really a priority for this project?	[22:00]
asciilifeform	not as such, imho	[22:00]
mircea_popescu	nah.	[22:00]
asciilifeform	but there is no particular reason to glue it to ip on protocol level	[22:00]
mircea_popescu	ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation	[22:01]
mircea_popescu	but otherwisew this is supposed to work today.	[22:01]
asciilifeform	if you can get packet P from your box to other end, using paper letter, but not the net - should be able to do so	[22:01]
artifexd	TCP does offer advantages. Not having to reinvent/reimplement transmission reliability/ordering is not a minor thing.	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	agreed.	[22:02]
asciilifeform	not having to worry about syn floods, etc. plus frustrating most existing traffic analysis widgetry - udp, if done correctly, is a serious win	[22:03]
asciilifeform	the connection-tracking apparatus of tcp is really half the force behind the sting of 'ddos'	[22:04]
artifexd	syn floods are a solved problem	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	it requires someone to do it correctly.	[22:04]
asciilifeform	undergrad-level problem	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	artifexd that all depends. relativelysolved lol	[22:05]
artifexd	Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right?	[22:06]
mircea_popescu	everything can be bought of the shelf neh ?	[22:06]
asciilifeform	incidentally, here's a small idea. instead of transmitting snapshots of global state (of 'channel'), have each packet be a reconciliation of one particular pubkey's history. that way there is no need to reassemble gigantic blob.	[22:08]
artifexd	As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible.	[22:09]
asciilifeform	artifexd: it is also necessary that they have no temporal correlation to anything.	[22:09]
artifexd	Right. But "once a second" is in the first draft of the rfc.	[22:09]
asciilifeform	artifexd: this requires a fixed, steady flow of bits between the two points.	[22:10]
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artifexd	Yes.	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis"	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves.	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	if the state controls the field of identity it doesn't need much more.	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust.	[22:11]
asciilifeform	not suggesting that 'anonymity' warrants complicating design, but if it can be dropped by the gods from the sky at no cost, no reason not to pick up.	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	sure, that much.	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done".	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against".	[22:13]
asciilifeform	'prison is like the grave, room can be found for everyone' (ru proverb)	[22:13]
artifexd	Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't.	[22:14]
artifexd	It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	artifexd nothing prevents the thing to be further upgraded later on.	[22:14]
artifexd	true story	[22:14]
asciilifeform	artifexd: you don't strictly speaking need fountain code in first version of this apparatus.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	for that matter, we have a much shittier version currently,	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	and it's worked nothing short of splendidly for many years.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements.	[22:15]
asciilifeform	artifexd: i was trying to suggest another way whereby no packet needs to exceed udp's mtu in size, or be guaranteed to reach its destination in the first try	[22:15]
artifexd	576 bytes ain't a lot of space.	[22:15]
asciilifeform	artifexd: this would be - to reconcile history per-pubkey, rather than global.	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that.	[22:16]
asciilifeform	576 can hold a 2048-bit (ephemeral rsa key!) sig, a reasonably long key fp, and small payload.	[22:16]
asciilifeform	also appreciate a fine point:	[22:17]
mircea_popescu	it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only)	[22:17]
asciilifeform	with udp, a box running said protocol cannot be distinguished by enemy from one which is not	[22:17]
asciilifeform	if he is not physically sitting on the wire	[22:17]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so ?	[22:17]
asciilifeform	if uninteresting, disregard.	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	if done right, a reasonable expectation will be that any box is running it anyway.	[22:18]
artifexd	Or just put it on port 80	[22:18]
asciilifeform	i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	that's a bit rich.	[22:19]
asciilifeform	who likes things to be countable	[22:19]
asciilifeform	and 'quantifiable'	[22:19]
*	WolfGoethe (~textual@cpe-74-66-239-168.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:19]
asciilifeform	'threat assessment111!!!11'	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform do not code for your enemy lol.	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	we're doing this for ourselves.	[22:19]
asciilifeform	when we make bullet - we make for enemy	[22:19]
asciilifeform	not usually for self	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	this is a tractor not a bullet.	[22:20]
asciilifeform	tractor with 'maxim.'	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	if the owner wieshes, sure.	[22:20]
asciilifeform	i wouldn't bother arguing the udp/tcp point were it not for the fact that this is not a decision that can be easily re-visited.	[22:21]
asciilifeform	for instance, if you immediately go with 4096-bit ephemeral keys, you're already at 512b. for sig alone.	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	why not ?	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing.	[22:22]
asciilifeform	it'll be a bit of a procrustean bed	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	fwiw i wouldn't use sub 4kb keys anyway.	[22:23]
asciilifeform	me neither	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	so then.	[22:23]
asciilifeform	but that was merely one example.	[22:23]
asciilifeform	(perfectly legit) question was 'wtf should we give a damn about udp mtu, it's a bore'	[22:23]
asciilifeform	answer is, for the same reason that, after a certain date, rifle calibers were X inch sixteenth lines and not some random contemporary fellow's little finger.	[22:24]
asciilifeform	with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.	[22:25]
asciilifeform	can silently drop it if 'foe.'	[22:25]
asciilifeform	without allocating memory.	[22:25]
asciilifeform	if it is not obvious why this is tremendously valuable, try to think about it for a few minutes.	[22:26]
*	asciilifeform will not waste the gentlemens' time by belabouring the point further	[22:26]
mircea_popescu	dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack.	[22:26]
asciilifeform	actually i envision a department hastily assembled, of folks much like myself but underemployed, set to work on it.	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	heh.	[22:28]
mircea_popescu	in 2016.	[22:28]
mircea_popescu	and they'll fail.	[22:28]
asciilifeform	not even usg as such, needed for this. the crapware folks will readily latch on to anything like a solution to what ails them - which proposed apparatus is; and the antivirus folks will immediately proceed to piss out whatever fluids they can muster, against the problem	[22:29]
asciilifeform	if correctly built, apparatus will remain standing. but the notion that no one will see it fit to pour excrement upon the head of the early incarnation - is a mistake.	[22:30]
mircea_popescu	i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc.	[22:31]
asciilifeform	l0l	[22:31]
artifexd	I'm burning up a lot (ok, more than a few) credits on http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/	[22:31]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqRN9J )	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	artifexd now you are on to my secret plan	[22:31]
asciilifeform	artifexd: iirc comments on trilema don't require credits	[22:31]
artifexd	refreshing the page to see new comments does.	[22:31]
*	asciilifeform confesses that he has never purchased a credit on mircea_popescu's site...	[22:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18116 @ 0.00063644 = 11.5297 BTC [-]	[22:32]
*	nubbins` has quit (Quit: Quit)	[22:33]
mircea_popescu	artifexd use one more then, i answer't.	[22:33]
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BingoBoingo	https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552570734481272832	[22:33]
assbot	While forcing me to pay taxes /USEmbassyBbdos tyrants won't allow me to attend /hashtag/CES2015?src=hash, /hashtag/TNABC?src=hash or anything in the US http://t.co/8dl6qpPjUM	[22:33]
BingoBoingo	https://twitter.com/BitcoinEdu/status/552627964228038656	[22:34]
assbot	The Bitstamp booth at CES today. http://t.co/BaqOaml8UL http://t.co/DrgdEVyoZg	[22:34]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: s/relied/relayed ?	[22:34]
artifexd	Oh! That shifts my interpretation somewhat.	[22:34]
mircea_popescu	is this ver's way of saying he can't afford anything bitcoin-related anymore, not even that thing in miami ?	[22:34]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform aye ty	[22:34]
mircea_popescu	artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.	[22:35]
mircea_popescu	but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"	[22:35]
artifexd	So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now.	[22:36]
asciilifeform	i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey)	[22:36]
artifexd	XFF?	[22:36]
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asciilifeform	artifexd: imho the 'hello' should stick to bare minimum - establishing the right of the interlocutor to speak to what is on the other end.	[22:38]
*	freeman_ (637fb947@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.127.185.71) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:38]
asciilifeform	if successful (he signed nonce with an ephemeral key for which the machine being spoken to possesses a valid primary wot-key signature, or is in fact transmitting a new ephemeral pubkey signed by such a wotkey) - this creates a session.	[22:40]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Seems so. Or it means He's basically Shrem'd except exile instead of jail.	[22:40]
asciilifeform	artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head.	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	qui facit per alium facit per se sort of "for"	[22:41]
asciilifeform	this is one of those problems where it is almost unavoidable.	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	artifexd yes, it could, of course.	[22:41]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00063644 = 1.4002 BTC [-]	[22:43]
*	7YUAAAAAL is now known as kyuupichan	[22:45]
BingoBoingo	5Is https://hackerone.com/news/pink-panther	[22:49]
assbot	The Tale of the Privacy Pink Panther - HackerOne ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqSX52 )	[22:49]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain?	[22:53]
BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: There are ways...	[22:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23800 @ 0.00063644 = 15.1473 BTC [-]	[22:54]
ben_vulpes	specifics, though, BingoBoingo	[22:55]
BingoBoingo	First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains.	[22:55]
BingoBoingo	B and C both still being addresses under your control	[22:56]
BingoBoingo	From there... party time.	[22:56]
Apocalyptic	that makes sense	[22:56]
BingoBoingo	Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part.	[22:57]
asciilifeform	artifexd, mircea_popescu, others - http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111242	[22:58]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqTDHH )	[22:58]
kakobrekla	https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552087758370775040 < still looking for trouble i see.	[22:58]
assbot	Which bank will have the foresight to give /krakenfx a USD bank account? /Chase /WellsFargo /BofA_News /usbank /Citibank /HSBC_US /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain	[23:00]
mircea_popescu	now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain.	[23:00]
mircea_popescu	the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin.,	[23:01]
Apocalyptic	!up hanbot	[23:02]
*	assbot gives voice to hanbot	[23:02]
ben_vulpes	i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.	[23:02]
hanbot	tyvm	[23:02]
ben_vulpes	anyways! i must off to tango lessons.	[23:02]
hanbot	BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	(if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs)	[23:02]
Apocalyptic	yw	[23:02]
artifexd	ben_vulpes: You don't. You keep sending money to yourself until it happens.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes what do you mean ? it necessarily will occur.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	since one contains more txn than the other by definition.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?	[23:03]
BingoBoingo	hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not?	[23:03]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: the 'turn on your laptop to prove it isn't filled exclusively with trotyl' thing is rather tiresome. esp. since nothing keeps a miscreant from replacing only, e.g., half of the cells in his battery with plastique of similar shape and density.	[23:04]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: but even the public 'state of the art' was an israeli phone, successfully delivered to intended decapitee, which functioned as intended for a few minutes and then detonated on command.	[23:04]
ben_vulpes	i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.	[23:04]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: it presumably looked 'correct' on xray.	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.	[23:05]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells.	[23:05]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33088 @ 0.00063644 = 21.0585 BTC [-]	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo soon enough there's going to be a "no half empty batteries" rule then.	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	i'd lobby for that if i were a battery maker.	[23:06]
asciilifeform	neh	[23:06]
asciilifeform	no batteries, period.	[23:06]
asciilifeform	must rent in flight, if using, and re-purchase on other end.	[23:06]
asciilifeform	this will happen shortly prior to the 'naked anaesthetized flights'	[23:07]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack	[23:07]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: sop. israeli phone, etc	[23:07]
asciilifeform	this entire subject remaining a subject even in light of (reasonably well-known) fact of extant airplanes being remotely pwnable - is perplexing.	[23:08]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Right. Prolly won't be long before ISIS seizes a medical xray and does some experimenting to catch up tp 5Is on this front	[23:08]
asciilifeform	'pwnable' isn't even the right word	[23:09]
asciilifeform	they're approximately what ssl is.	[23:09]
asciilifeform	pre-masterkeyed. this was quietly ushered into being shortly post '9/11' and mostly forgotten about in public.	[23:09]
artifexd	asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, et al: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111243	[23:09]
assbot	[Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqUqIr )	[23:09]
asciilifeform	artifexd: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111244	[23:11]
kakobrekla	502 Bad Gateway	[23:11]
artifexd	O noes!	[23:11]
Apocalyptic	^	[23:11]
asciilifeform	damn	[23:12]
artifexd	You broke it	[23:12]
Apocalyptic	the page is too successful	[23:12]
artifexd	Anybody have a good name for this project? ircd isn't going to cut it.	[23:15]
mike_c	why? let the other ircd change it's name.	[23:15]
asciilifeform	mike_c: terrible thing to do.	[23:15]
mike_c	just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D	[23:16]
asciilifeform	mike_c: phoundation - deserved the treatment; old warhorse irc - doesn't	[23:16]
BingoBoingo	ArseD?	[23:17]
asciilifeform	artifexd: if you're up for it, we can continue the thread here while trilema is down	[23:18]
artifexd	Sure	[23:18]
artifexd	What'd you say?	[23:18]
asciilifeform	artifexd: the mechanism for doing what ought to be done has a generic name: 'gossip protocol'	[23:19]
asciilifeform	that is, you utter a certain thing, or rather, sequence of things, and wish for said fact to become 'universal knowledge' at some point	[23:19]
asciilifeform	and it is accomplished by people talking to one another: 'have you heard xxxxx?' 'nope, do tell.' or 'sure, heard all about it.'	[23:20]
asciilifeform	bitcoin implements one variant of this.	[23:20]
asciilifeform	i will argue that you will want to, in general, 'hash-chain' all of your public (type 'a' in my last visible comment) messages.	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	it's down ?!	[23:21]
asciilifeform	hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered.	[23:22]
artifexd	Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach.	[23:22]
artifexd	I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.	[23:23]
asciilifeform	if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle.	[23:23]
asciilifeform	thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing.	[23:24]
asciilifeform	so it may as well apply to everything.	[23:24]
asciilifeform	there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again.	[23:24]
Apocalyptic	so is qntra for me	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	well i just responded...	[23:24]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: your site is down as seen from my perch	[23:25]
artifexd	If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length)	[23:25]
asciilifeform	like bitcoin.	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/trilema.com	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile...	[23:25]
assbot	Down For Everyone Or Just Me -> Check if your website is down or up? ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqVgFd )	[23:25]
artifexd	And now we have a blockchain growth problem.	[23:25]
asciilifeform	how is it a problem ?	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	srsly, no blockchain.	[23:25]
asciilifeform	no blockchain. just chain.	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	but basically the bundle should cover the last hour.	[23:26]
asciilifeform	if no chain: malicious node can selectively drop messages.	[23:27]
Apocalyptic	mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly	[23:27]
asciilifeform	notice you don't have to store the chain permanently	[23:27]
asciilifeform	just rolling window.	[23:28]
asciilifeform	Apocalyptic: same here	[23:28]
artifexd	An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so ?	[23:28]
artifexd	If a bundle is sent every second.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	artifexd ah that's a point. my 1hour was outer limit.	[23:28]
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asciilifeform	a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages.	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	this is likely actually.	[23:29]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8200 @ 0.00063644 = 5.2188 BTC [-]	[23:29]
asciilifeform	why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	because not its job.	[23:30]
artifexd	Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.	[23:30]
asciilifeform	and synchronize based on histories of individual pubkeys	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story.	[23:30]
asciilifeform	the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin.	[23:30]
asciilifeform	if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.	[23:31]
artifexd	Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.	[23:32]
asciilifeform	this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.	[23:32]
*	assbot removes voice from hanbot	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	it's okay for slow nodes to lose messages	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	this is what the definition of "Slow" is.	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.	[23:32]
artifexd	asciilifeform: What you want sounds very similar to bitmessage, no?	[23:33]
asciilifeform	perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.	[23:33]
asciilifeform	'store and forward'	[23:33]
artifexd	usenet is pretty damn fast.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it's not really a log-with-chat.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	it's a chat.,	[23:33]
asciilifeform	the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	yes, because they're not signed nor crypted.	[23:34]
asciilifeform	even when they are.	[23:34]
artifexd	The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.	[23:34]
asciilifeform	except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish	[23:34]
asciilifeform	through the ravages of time	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously.	[23:34]
asciilifeform	well yes.	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	how you slice the 99% is uninteresting.	[23:35]
asciilifeform	now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation.	[23:35]
artifexd	Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on trilema?	[23:36]
mircea_popescu		[23:36]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that's in the hello message.	[23:36]
asciilifeform	hence atomic operation, aha	[23:36]
mircea_popescu	each server sends its own view, you compile what interests you.	[23:37]
asciilifeform	inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times.	[23:37]
asciilifeform	i doubt that this can be avoided entirely	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	necessarioly.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	thjere is no such thing as "one" wot.	[23:37]
*	Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[23:37]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00063432 = 5.7089 BTC [-] {2}	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	there is no center wot.	[23:37]
asciilifeform	only if it, as it does presently, lives in just one specially-designated temple	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	right.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched.	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing.	[23:38]
asciilifeform	i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time.	[23:38]
asciilifeform	!s kyristor	[23:38]
assbot	14 results for 'kyristor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=kyristor	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	as assbot's usage over timne has shown	[23:38]
asciilifeform	before i learned of the wot that we now use.	[23:38]
asciilifeform	(*even before)	[23:38]
asciilifeform	the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	it isn't a scalar.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917896	[23:39]
assbot	Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots.	[23:39]
BingoBoingo	lol at Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2015/01/06/pegida_marches_xenophobia_is_going_mainstream_in_germany.html	[23:40]
assbot	PEGIDA marches: Xenophobia is going mainstream in Germany. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0Df0 )	[23:40]
artifexd	Piss... trilema is 502ing again	[23:40]
artifexd	Which I can only assume means it ate my comment.	[23:40]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2015/01/05/russian_hedge_fund_founder_disappears_with_all_the_firm_s_money.html?wpisrc=obnetwork << another mega-lol from same site	[23:41]
assbot	Russian hedge fund founder disappears with all the firm's money. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0GYd )	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	artifexd umm... i see it but not your comment.	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	is this some routing mishmashing or something ?	[23:42]
*	asciilifeform also cannot connect now	[23:42]
*	asciilifeform probably caught in spam/ddos trap	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	a there it is.	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	it... didn't eat your comment lol	[23:43]
artifexd	It did.	[23:43]
artifexd	I refreshed the post page. :)	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	answer't.	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	lettuce continue this convo while asciilifeform feels all left out :D	[23:44]
Usage:	QUERY [-nofocus] , opens up a new privmsg window to someone	[23:45]
asciilifeform	l0l	[23:45]
Apocalyptic	how long are the bans typically scheduled for ?	[23:45]
mircea_popescu	depends, from an hour up	[23:46]
artifexd	Ok. The layers are forming in my head.	[23:47]
*	OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[23:47]
*	ddddddd (637fb947@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.127.185.71) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:54]
BingoBoingo	!up ddddddd	[23:56]
*	assbot gives voice to ddddddd	[23:56]
*	ddddddd has quit (Client Quit)	[23:56]

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