Forum logs for 06 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
decimation svetlana: why doesn't someone fix the 'problem' with cloaks by re-writing ircd into something sane? [00:03]
decimation << lol these guys want to sell gimp suits for hazing usg employees [00:05]
assbot New lie detector relies on full-body suit for better accuracy | ITworld ... ( ) [00:05]
asciilifeform decimation: await the next version, resembling 'iron maiden' ? [00:06]
cazalla thestringpuller, didja know even pokemon has cloud storage for pokemans with the pokemon bank [00:06]
decimation asciilifeform: yeah, it has 99% accuracy!!! [00:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00065173 = 36.8879 BTC [+] {3} [00:09]
thestringpuller cazalla: ya. since black and white I thought [00:11]
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cazalla not the app one you download but the paid monthly service, i thought it was more recent but perhaps i am wrong, i bow to your knowledge as a pokemon master [00:11]
thestringpuller lol i'm not pokemone master [00:12]
thestringpuller not since 99' [00:12]
thestringpuller '99 *** [00:12]
mircea_popescu decimation there's a fundamental difference between those who use tools and those who make tools. [00:14]
decimation what about those who make 'tools'? [00:14]
mircea_popescu take a week to work in say a supermarket or something. the helplessness of common postmodern man (well, mostly woman) is impressive. [00:14]
mircea_popescu << tales from the ddos. [00:19]
assbot 10 2 1 5 220 - ... ( ) [00:19]
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decimation interesting, from singapore [00:22]
mircea_popescu teh qty of work poured into it is kinda lulzy. [00:23]
mircea_popescu New lie detector relies on full-body suit for better accuracy | ITworld << makes me think... most dudes think they know fucking... [00:26]
decimation can you see if it is actually http traffic or is it more pnp reflection? [00:26]
mircea_popescu maybe it should be dildo. [00:26]
mircea_popescu decimation no it's http. [00:26]
mircea_popescu - - [05/Jan/2015:09:16:48 -0500] "GET etc [00:27]
BingoBoingo At this rate actual IPv4 addresses will never be exhausted. too many are simply occupied atm by lusers and spammzors [00:30]
mircea_popescu or derps. [00:30]
mircea_popescu ipv4 "not being enough" is a sad symptom of letting too many people in. [00:30]
mircea_popescu sort-of like "there are not enough places in college for all the kids" [00:31]
mircea_popescu backwards. [00:31]
BingoBoingo Except now there are too many places in college for the kids, because people dun wanna go no moar. [00:32]
mircea_popescu also that. [00:33]
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mircea_popescu so practical macroeconomics exercise. venezuela, which is in the shitter, quotes the dollar officially at 12 bolivars. meanwhile, black rate is ~170. [00:34]
mircea_popescu the govt is considering yielding, and bringing the official bolivar to 50ish. [00:34]
mircea_popescu should it do that, what's the likely evolution of the black market rate ? [00:35]
mircea_popescu and a vignette to help the thinking process along. [00:35]
assbot ... ( ) [00:35]
BingoBoingo Well, I imagine dilemma isn't too different from my present ability to buy a gallon of gas for $2 because America is dumping its entire oild reserve now to try to fuck Russia in this moment. [00:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39050 @ 0.0006564 = 25.6324 BTC [+] {4} [00:37]
mircea_popescu [00:45]
assbot ... ( ) [00:45]
BingoBoingo lol [00:49]
decimation << us isn't dumping oil, saudi arabia is, and not doing too well [00:49]
assbot The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : Blowback on the Saudi Border – Senior General Killed ... ( ) [00:49]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Old lead mining town there. Can't expect much brightness there. [00:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00066138 = 22.0901 BTC [+] {3} [00:59]
decimation !up svetlana [00:59]
* assbot gives voice to svetlana [00:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10281 @ 0.0006555 = 6.7392 BTC [-] [01:07]
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BingoBoingo !up nubbins` [01:15]
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nubbins` well hello [01:15]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4870 @ 0.00066186 = 3.2233 BTC [+] [01:19]
BingoBoingo hello nubbins` [01:19]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15050 @ 0.00064031 = 9.6367 BTC [-] {3} [01:23]
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* assbot removes voice from svetlana [01:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7050 @ 0.00063731 = 4.493 BTC [-] [01:37]
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mircea_popescu decimation amusingly enough pretty much everyone is selling under production [01:53]
mircea_popescu but they're not stopping. [01:53]
mircea_popescu now, why that is... [01:53]
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mircea_popescu if anyone cares, there was another ddos bout, but it didn't do anything. [01:53]
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kakobrekla wai you get all the fun [01:54]
kakobrekla :( [01:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.00062519 = 3.0009 BTC [-] [01:55]
mircea_popescu i guess cause i'm taller ? [01:57]
kakobrekla not by that much... [01:57]
mircea_popescu maybe it's first past the pole. [01:57]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00063731 = 10.9936 BTC [+] [02:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00066266 = 19.1509 BTC [+] {2} [02:12]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to nubbins` [02:14]
mircea_popescu o look, nubsy [02:14]
mircea_popescu finally found the internet end of the cable ? [02:15]
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mircea_popescu o look, another one lol. [02:18]
mircea_popescu neways, enough excitement for one night. laters! [02:24]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [15:16]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [15:16]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [15:16]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass. [15:16]
chanserv #op #bitcoin-assets [15:19]
chanserv op #bitcoin-assets [15:19]
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to mircea_popescu [15:19]
mircea_popescu < lol [15:20]
assbot ... ( ) [15:20]
mircea_popescu cazalla / BingoBoingo [15:21]
assbot Xoom Corp. CFO resigns after fraudsters steal $30.8M in corporate cash - San Francisco Business Times ... ( ) [15:21]
mircea_popescu pity i hadn't made a derp for THIS one. [15:22]
* assbot removes voice from pete_dushenski [15:22]
mircea_popescu pete_dushenski: ^fitting << hehe not bad eh. [15:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14297 @ 0.00062758 = 8.9725 BTC [-] {2} [15:23]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to pete_dushenski [15:23]
pete_dushenski prescient! [15:24]
mircea_popescu lol. [15:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11628 @ 0.00065027 = 7.5613 BTC [+] {2} [15:24]
mircea_popescu i guess the largest shock to noobs is swallowing the actual history of mp-*, as it was. [15:24]
mircea_popescu too livresque for reason. [15:24]
mircea_popescu jurov: ;;later tell mircea_popescu care to send qntr shares over? << aye. [15:24]
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BingoBoingo [15:40]
assbot Remittance Company Xoom Loses Corporate Cash To Fraud | ... ( ) [15:40]
mircea_popescu check that out, this new year was 1420070400. at some point during ny eve it crossed 1,42 trillion [15:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14256 @ 0.000655 = 9.3377 BTC [+] [15:41]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo if you add another whole paragraph about how dollars are inherently unsafe, used by terrorists and probably not going to "make it", culled directly from the idiocy spewed by idiots about btc [15:41]
mircea_popescu i'd love you long time. [15:42]
scoopbot New post on by Bingo Boingo: [15:42]
mircea_popescu should be standard practice for any article mentioning fiat. the msm is doing it to us, obviously we'll be doing it to them. let teh public pick up the pieces. [15:43]
BingoBoingo k [15:43]
pete_dushenski [15:46]
assbot Love how Zuckerberg talks about books as if they are funky new app he has discovered. From /thetimes [15:46]
pete_dushenski and i'm off. cheers! [15:46]
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mircea_popescu i really don't think they should be called books properly. [15:49]
mircea_popescu clearly they infringe on facebook intellectual propertahs. [15:49]
BingoBoingo updated [15:49]
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mircea_popescu i dun think it saved or something ? [15:50]
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BingoBoingo I didn't add much this time. Gotta think of more lines for future fiat articles. [15:55]
mircea_popescu yeh not very good. [15:57]
mircea_popescu mainly because it somehow elides that the problem is the dollar. [15:58]
mircea_popescu anyway, too lazy to go into the 2012-2013 collection of "media" derpage. [16:00]
BingoBoingo Takes time to get the venom ready. There's bound to be other stories to dip in the venom when its ready. [16:01]
mircea_popescu tis a point hehe [16:02]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25925 @ 0.00065029 = 16.8588 BTC [-] [16:07]
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mircea_popescu it occurs to me... it must suck to be a lesbian. i mean a real one, the whatever, .4% demographic. [16:09]
scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: [16:09]
mircea_popescu not only are your odds of finding a like minded soul vanishingly tiny, but you're deluged in all the fat idiots who think that they may "hate men", as something that's at their disposal, and it's your job and obligation to humor them, because "you're different". [16:09]
mircea_popescu and will raise hell if you dare observe that they're the same stinky, unbearable, impossible idiots that men think they are, pretending lesbianism is not a magical cure. [16:10]
mircea_popescu meanwhile gay men have for one thing five to ten times as many legit other gay men to meet, and looser dudes make up "men going alone" clubs instead of deciding they're now gay and the gay community must turn itself into mcdonalds to accomodate them. [16:11]
thestringpuller cazalla: back yet? [16:14]
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bitstein Gavin just posted this. Thought y'all would be interested: [16:20]
assbot GavinTech: Looking before the Scaling Up Leap ... ( ) [16:20]
asciilifeform axe-time, sword-time, coming closer [16:20]
mircea_popescu i can't be arsed to read blogspot junk. [16:21]
mircea_popescu maybe if someone important said something. maybe. [16:21]
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TomServo What would Gavin be referring to when he says "the reference implementation"? [16:27]
mircea_popescu systemd, perhaps. [16:28]
TomServo heh [16:28]
mircea_popescu i dunno that they have much other reference. [16:28]
mircea_popescu but anyway, gavin hasn't been making any sense for a long time now. [16:28]
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TomServo Yes, and reading this makes that ring even more true. [16:33]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla check out the power and influence of bitbet. so, there's [16:41]
assbot BitBet - Obama Approval Rating over 45% in 2014 :: 0.16 B (53%) on Yes, 0.14 B (47%) on No | closed 2 weeks 5 days ago ... ( ) [16:41]
mircea_popescu now check out gallup : [16:41]
assbot Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama | Gallup Historical Data & Trends [16:41]
mircea_popescu NEVER throughout the year has it been over 45 [16:41]
mircea_popescu except they shoved a 46 in there at the end for the first week of 2015. which, of course, includes three days of 2014. [16:41]
mircea_popescu this was a coincidence, right ? and gallup actually conducts its polls, like irl, right ? [16:42]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00061584 = 10.6232 BTC [-] [17:16]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu achtung [17:22]
mircea_popescu hm ? [17:22]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu incoming pgp [17:23]
mircea_popescu coolness. [17:23]
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kakobrekla yes, the power of coincidence is great power. [17:25]
Apocalyptic wtf blogspot doesn't load at all without js, seriously... bitstein could you post a text pastebin ? [17:25]
bitstein [17:26]
assbot Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - ... ( ) [17:26]
Apocalyptic thank you [17:27]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5575 @ 0.00062973 = 3.5107 BTC [+] [17:27]
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mircea_popescu scoopbot -fetch [17:44]
mircea_popescu !echo scoopbot -fetch [17:45]
mircea_popescu hm. [17:45]
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thestringpuller jurov: thank you [17:46]
mircea_popescu bitstein thanks for the pastebin. [17:47]
kakobrekla heh, i sent some ppl to check the logs sometimes, mostly i get back "what language is this, english?" [17:47]
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mircea_popescu i guess it's time to write a post about all this. [17:48]
bitstein You're welcome [17:49]
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rithm 20mb blocks eh [17:52]
rithm 200mb blocks even [17:52]
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scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: [17:55]
thestringpuller lol scoopy scoopy doo [17:56]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: do we have to bring our own pitchforks or will they be provided for us? [17:56]
asciilifeform own [17:56]
kakobrekla >Oil does not come out of the ground naturally, [17:57]
asciilifeform presently true [17:57]
kakobrekla well it was discovered by coming out of the ground naturally. [17:57]
asciilifeform was. [17:57]
mircea_popescu wtf was the buterin scamcoin called, eleuterium ? [17:58]
mircea_popescu eleusys ? [17:58]
asciilifeform 'etherium' [17:58]
mircea_popescu a ty [17:58]
Apocalyptic wasn't it "ethereum" ? [18:01]
TomServo Yes. [18:02]
asciilifeform hm [18:02]
kakobrekla oh wow they had 8 POC implementations so far. [18:04]
kakobrekla they will run out of money by the 60th. [18:05]
TomServo Another 2k or so left their wallet recently, incidentally. [18:06]
kakobrekla how much left? [18:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19387 @ 0.00063255 = 12.2632 BTC [+] [18:06]
Apocalyptic they will be resupplied as long as derps have money I fear [18:06]
kakobrekla left to leave [18:06]
asciilifeform waterfall. [18:06]
kakobrekla i doubt they will get resupplied tbh [18:06]
TomServo 17,521.36256657 [18:06]
Apocalyptic kakobrekla, wait for the new exclusive presale of new ethers, -50% NOW ! [18:07]
TomServo Only gone down from the 27,000ish peak around Sep 1 [18:07]
kakobrekla muh. [18:07]
asciilifeform i dare to suggest a possible term for another thing the ethereum folks do; 'chump fracking' [18:08]
asciilifeform just as in hydraulic fracturing, foreign substance is pumped into the earth to liberate the goods, [18:08]
kakobrekla which is ? [18:08]
asciilifeform synthetic chumps (btc stolen by usg organs) is pumped into eth [18:09]
kakobrekla paper btc [18:09]
kakobrekla ? [18:09]
asciilifeform not only to drive waterfall directly, but to create an appearance of a 'happening', 'hot' chumpatron [18:09]
asciilifeform and bring in the naturally-occurring but recalcitrant chumpers. [18:09]
kakobrekla as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund [18:09]
kakobrekla silbert* [18:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13231 @ 0.00061737 = 8.1684 BTC [-] {2} [18:12]
kakobrekla how much did he have under his belt anyway, 20k, 200k ? i forgot [18:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9681 @ 0.00061415 = 5.9456 BTC [-] [18:13]
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mircea_popescu BingoBoingo / cazalla : [18:15]
TomServo Found a coidesk article from April saying 100k [18:15]
assbot If you go on a Bitcoin fork, irrespective which scammer proposes it, you will lose your Bitcoins. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [18:15]
mircea_popescu sort-of news. [18:15]
mircea_popescu as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund << kinda my understanding as well. but hey, if his customers are happy with it... [18:16]
mircea_popescu oh and bitstein ^ [18:16]
mircea_popescu now if mod6 an' ben_vulpes + whoever else can contribute get snappy with the actual foudnation work, the beheading of gavin's pretense will come exactly in time for a smooth transition to a muchly superior alternative. [18:18]
mircea_popescu i dun imagine they'll pretend like they "tested" it in less than a few months, so there's still a season i'd guess. [18:19]
* asciilifeform feels guilt re: mod6-vuples foundation, almost like it were a bastard son he can't quite afford to feed [18:19]
* asciilifeform is sitting on a shameful quantity of unfinished patches for their apparatus [18:19]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu: which one(s) of you is even doing the merges, anyway ? [18:22]
mircea_popescu i thought jurov [18:22]
asciilifeform aha [18:22]
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mircea_popescu wasn't he maintaining the list an errything ? [18:23]
asciilifeform list, yes. wasn't sure about the tree itself [18:23]
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* asciilifeform vaguely recalls ben_vulpes having wangled together an autobuilder of sorts [18:23]
mircea_popescu ah [18:24]
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mircea_popescu and, of course, much like in the case of the "ethereum short" nobody actually bought, here is me looking for counterparties willing to buy gavin-bitcoins on the understanding that the transaction will only be valid on the gavin fork, but not in actual bitcoin. [18:28]
asciilifeform the 'gaw' crap boggles my mind. how is this shit even still possible. [18:28]
mircea_popescu ideally 1k+ piles. [18:28]
asciilifeform it has to be chump fracking. [18:29]
mircea_popescu yes, it is. [18:29]
kakobrekla gaw is not usg powered [18:30]
kakobrekla just greed. [18:30]
asciilifeform on the contrary, synthetic chumpfracking fluid is a usg product. [18:30]
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mircea_popescu stupidity i thought, but yes. [18:30]
mircea_popescu who implied us powering ? [18:30]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to mquin [18:31]
kakobrekla ascii did with the fracking. [18:31]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah, they're naturally that clueless. [18:31]
mircea_popescu i mean if you must, in a very 3rd hand way, "through ruining public schools" or w/e. [18:31]
asciilifeform from whence come the mass of idiot coin, though [18:31]
mircea_popescu what brings you over mquin ? [18:31]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform from the fertile union of a very strong "must succeed" ideology and a very narrow "math is hard" cluelessness. [18:32]
mquin mircea_popescu: we seem to be getting questions about this channel and cloaking quite regularly lately [18:32]
mircea_popescu !s from:t [18:32]
assbot 19 results for 'from:t' : [18:32]
scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: [18:32]
mircea_popescu there's the previous discussion with t[homas] ? [18:32]
mircea_popescu anyway, includes a pastebin of the #freenode discussion etc. [18:33]
kakobrekla so if the majority of miners accepts the fork mpex is out of luck ? [18:33]
mircea_popescu nope. [18:33]
mircea_popescu if a majority of miners accepts the fork they still have to relay and mine all my txn. [18:34]
mircea_popescu for as long as there's one miner that doesn't, however... [18:34]
kakobrekla aha youll open a pool. [18:34]
mircea_popescu this is one of those requiring absolute consensus. [18:34]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla all i need really is a tiny miner. even gpus will do. [18:35]
mircea_popescu heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while. [18:35]
mircea_popescu the fake coins they mine won't actually be worth anything once the fake chain dies. sort-of longest orphan block in history. [18:36]
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kakobrekla vs the gpu miners :) [18:36]
mircea_popescu hey, this is what people with gpus wanted all along, right ? a chance to mine again. [18:36]
mircea_popescu if any of the asic farms is stupid enough to update (which is sort-of doubt, but hey, stupidity is bottomless) then they get their wish. [18:37]
asciilifeform 'lenin is young again!' (tm) [18:37]
mircea_popescu notably, at absolutely no cost. it's like a gift. [18:37]
kakobrekla i dont think asics needs upgrading [18:37]
mircea_popescu who can say no to gifts. [18:37]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla "upgrading" in the limited sense of building on a 1mb+ block. [18:37]
mircea_popescu which no miner currently does. [18:38]
kakobrekla yes but switching is not something that takes time or resources. [18:38]
mircea_popescu well no, switching doesn't. but mining in the dead chain takes as many resources as you're willing to throw at it. [18:39]
kakobrekla for pool op is something like apt-get update and done [18:39]
mircea_popescu might as well mine the wall. [18:39]
mircea_popescu nevertheless, if anyone wants to make a pool for the purpose that can't hurt anything. [18:40]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform [18:41]
assbot [OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [18:41]
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* mircea_popescu gives voice to artifexd [18:42]
mircea_popescu artifexd ya was just looking for you in the list lol [18:43]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to FabianB_ [18:43]
artifexd I have decided that I like this ircd project. [18:43]
mircea_popescu o hey. [18:43]
mircea_popescu can you actually do it ? [18:43]
artifexd I like it to the point of being willing to commit time to do it. [18:43]
mircea_popescu am i s/open/artifexd/ ? [18:44]
asciilifeform [18:44]
assbot [OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [18:44]
asciilifeform answerd [18:44]
artifexd Would you like to discuss in here or keep it in the comments? [18:45]
* asciilifeform believes that the scheme as originally described is disastrously mistaken [18:45]
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mircea_popescu coments best! [18:45]
artifexd mircea_popescu> am i s/open/artifexd/ ? << huh? [18:47]
rithm port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think [18:49]
TomServo Nah, just leetist [18:49]
rithm 7000 would be more in line as a "standard" irc port with security [18:49]
asciilifeform but this isn't irc ! [18:50]
TomServo a port is a port [18:50]
rithm riiiight [18:50]
asciilifeform has no one actually -read- the thing ? [18:50]
artifexd mircea_popescu> can you actually do it ? << There are mad amounts of detail to work out. That said, yes. I can do it. [18:50]
rithm so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing [18:50]
rithm i forgot it's unicorn land please continue [18:50]
kakobrekla i think the idea is to fix shit, not make it more beautiful. [18:51]
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rithm seems like centralized mechanism to prevent mitm, really only becomes decentralize with more /links [18:52]
asciilifeform centralized ? [18:52]
asciilifeform rithm: did you actually read mircea_popescu's article ? [18:53]
rithm i think i'm looking at it now [18:53]
* kakobrekla gives voice to punkman [18:53]
punkman hilarious uncloaking exploits [18:53]
assbot DerbyCon 3 0 2306 Uncloaking Ip Addresses On Irc Derek Callaway - YouTube ... ( ) [18:53]
mircea_popescu artifexd am i editing the thing to reflect you're doin' it. [18:53]
rithm b. A list of IPs [18:54]
rithm the "thing" scales with /links to other "things" [18:54]
mircea_popescu port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think << yes, i do. [18:54]
rithm so the client is the server in this scenario or not? is it more p2p or not because i'm not seeing this definition in the language [18:55]
punkman (and some text related to video ) [18:55]
rithm traditional irc is clinet/server but this isn't irc [18:55]
assbot Spot The Fed: Online Edition ... ( ) [18:55]
mircea_popescu there is no "Server" [18:55]
mircea_popescu much like in bitcoin, some will run larger clients which people can reliably connect to. [18:55]
mircea_popescu but they'd still be running the client code, more or less. [18:56]
rithm if it scales verically like "interaction" with this thing creates a new "server" then that doesn't sound centralized [18:56]
mircea_popescu so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing << interoperability with what ? [18:57]
asciilifeform active thread on mircea_popescu's site, btw [18:57]
rithm not that architecture, but I'm not reading that definition on trilema [18:57]
rithm TFA title says ircd but it's not something to interoperate with any known ircd correct [18:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00061415 = 5.4659 BTC [-] [18:58]
mircea_popescu correct. [18:58]
asciilifeform perhaps misleading title, 'better ircd', i admit i almost postponed reading it when first saw on account of this [18:58]
mircea_popescu ftr, the car was called "a better horse buggy" originally. [18:58]
punkman forward secrecy would be nice if possible [18:59]
mircea_popescu if one doesn't buy into the entire "branding, even if or especially if before the fact" one's stuck with this. i don't mind it so much. [18:59]
mircea_popescu punkman forward secrecy is a one on one affair, mostly. the salt is supposed to implement as much as it's possible, and the lack of signatures. [19:00]
mircea_popescu perhaps i don't actually see the whole ball there tho. [19:00]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i argue that all transmissions must be signed, if this is to be the thing it is really meant to be. [19:00]
mircea_popescu but seriously, let's move all discussion on the article, otherwise it'll be hard to fish from logs later on [19:00]
* mircea_popescu shall make further responses there. [19:00]
mircea_popescu << lol ty mr hahs, whoever you are. [19:02]
assbot Score so far: Gavin's fork, 0BTC | MP's fork killer, 1 million BTC? : Bitcoin ... ( ) [19:02]
mircea_popescu << updated. [19:06]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:06]
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ben_vulpes heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while. << why if 99% of miners move onto that chain, would anyone ever move off? [19:16]
mircea_popescu because they can't spend the fake btc they "mined" [19:16]
mircea_popescu (i don't mean technically, i mean financially, nobody's accepting it for value) [19:17]
jurov but if 99% of miners move to the fake chain, then it will take years till difficulty adjusts.. or we§d have to fork it and adjust anyway [19:18]
mircea_popescu from the perspective of the blockchain, the situation is identical to "what woud happen if 99% of miners turned their rigs off" [19:18]
mircea_popescu well... nothing ? once they turn them back on they can mine again. [19:18]
* kakobrekla doesnt have great hopes for this upcoming blockchain size war. [19:19]
Apocalyptic jurov, good point [19:19]
jurov and how it comes financially? suddenly the garzikcoin stop being excnaged for stuff cuz mircea said so? [19:19]
jurov *exchanged [19:20]
mircea_popescu no, just, mircea's bitcoin in its gavin aspect is being sold. so miners of gavin chain will have to compete with that. [19:20]
punkman btw the irc services library used by freenode is EOL'd [19:20]
punkman "There will not be another release cycle after Atheme 7.2. We encourage the community to fork Atheme and choose the most suitable forks to drive IRC forward. To this end, we will maintain Atheme 7.2 as a suitable base for forking until October 31, 2015, with all services terminating on October 31, 2016." [19:20]
mircea_popescu and merchants accepting it will have to somehow finance the risk, too. [19:20]
Apocalyptic kakobrekla, as in you doubt the outcome will be in favour of b-a ? [19:21]
mircea_popescu i kinda doubt they actually have the guts to go through with it, [19:21]
mircea_popescu but hey. [19:21]
mircea_popescu you don't always get the maximal fun out of situations. [19:21]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu, artifexd, other interested folks: [19:22]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:22]
mircea_popescu jurov that 99% figure is mostly a joke. look at the exchanges as they are, think what even a 50k wall would do at say 30 usd per. how exactly are thjose 99% of miners going to finance operations for a week when their block reward is worth ~750 bux ? [19:23]
mircea_popescu at best gavin will manage to crush the gavin-bitcoin to whatever it was in 2012 and that's that. [19:23]
mircea_popescu nobody's pouring out peta hashes for free for weeks on end. [19:24]
jurov you mean you will dump 50k gavins? [19:24]
mircea_popescu i will dump all my bitcoin, on the gavin fork. [19:24]
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kakobrekla you know why we have miners? [19:25]
artifexd asciilifeform: lol [19:25]
mircea_popescu show teh us how dumping's actually done. what, dja have any idea how long i pined for an opportuniy to play the easy side of this game ? [19:25]
kakobrekla cause they cant do math. [19:25]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla yeah, right. [19:25]
artifexd asciilifeform: I was typing up that exact same idea [19:25]
mircea_popescu not what i've been hearing from teh chinese folks on the topic, but w/e, gavin's more than welcome to persevere in his usg-is-the-world delusions. [19:25]
kakobrekla they will in fact mine with ev- [19:25]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to akisora [19:25]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla for how long ? [19:26]
asciilifeform the miners in the sealed mine will mine on body fat for as long as they can. [19:26]
mircea_popescu 1mn a day. how long ? [19:26]
akisora Thanks. I was wondering how things worked here since gribble is offline [19:26]
akisora I can't auth on gribble. Not that I have any ratings [19:26]
mircea_popescu they work... barely. [19:26]
kakobrekla ill just say my guess is better than sexygingers. [19:26]
mircea_popescu well sure. [19:27]
mircea_popescu nevertheless, this "they'll mine at -ev" is from the days of gpus. [19:27]
kakobrekla nah. [19:27]
mircea_popescu otherwise, miner farms are actually pretty stretched as it is, financially. [19:27]
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asciilifeform artifexd: [19:29]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:29]
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kakobrekla dude, vps is like a dollar a month. [19:30]
kakobrekla (for the purpose of bouncer) [19:31]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: there are folks about (some even in #b-a) who have a habit of using something other than an actual computer for their daily work (i won't point fingers) [19:32]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: they will succumb to the temptation of running the entire demon, and not merely a proxy, on the 'bouncer.' [19:33]
kakobrekla i thought nobody even has an actual computer. [19:33]
asciilifeform doctor will say to patient 'if it hurts, stop doing it' [19:33]
asciilifeform but the entire problem is entirely avoidable [19:33]
asciilifeform minimal standard of computer for purpose of this thread [19:34]
kakobrekla :) [19:34]
asciilifeform box that will compile and run an unpretentious posix demon without major handholding [19:34]
kakobrekla context always fucks everything up. [19:35]
mircea_popescu no kako, it's u! not context! [19:35]
mircea_popescu :D [19:35]
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mircea_popescu jurov this discussion entirely elides the more important point of "why in the fuck would miners even consider a proposal that inflates their main ware". [19:37]
mircea_popescu the block rewards keeps going down. how are they going to make money if there's no pressure on txn to pay ? is gavin going to give them it ? [19:37]
Apocalyptic this falls to kako's argument "they can't do math" [19:38]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.00064331 = 5.1143 BTC [+] [19:39]
jurov we don't know who the damn miners actually are anymore [19:40]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic kako's argument needs a "and the govt will print money and give it to them. forever" companion. [19:40]
mircea_popescu otherwise, it's as good as the argument that "my horse doesn't need to eat" [19:40]
mircea_popescu jurov "we". i kinda do. [19:40]
jurov i see. so you are certain these entities are mostly motivated by profit. [19:41]
mircea_popescu yes. [19:42]
Apocalyptic "rational entities" will be sufficient imo [19:42]
mircea_popescu even the statal actors have a limited budget. [19:42]
mircea_popescu this war exceeds that. [19:42]
asciilifeform the only way enemy could win this hypothetical engagement is if he can set his fork up to 'catabolically break down' the original bitcoin network ( mircea_popescu's army on the board ) [19:47]
thestringpuller << these comments are giving me brain cancer [19:47]
asciilifeform say, by engineering a continuous double-spend attempt into normal operation of 'usgcoin' miners [19:47]
asciilifeform (double-spend on the 'actual' net, naturally) [19:48]
mircea_popescu thestringpuller the lulzy part in there is "clearly the thing that's not needed but we kept repeating that it is, is in fact needed. because...uh..." [19:48]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform what'd that do ? [19:48]
akisora did Gavin just say there are special rules for coinbase?? [19:50]
mircea_popescu hm ? [19:51]
akisora In the article linked in the reddit thestringpuller posted Gavin said "2. There are special rules for 'coinbase' transactions: there can be only one coinbase transaction per block, it must be the first transaction, etc." [19:51]
akisora What the fuck is that? lol [19:52]
akisora I don't understand what is going on with that [19:52]
Apocalyptic akisora, coinbase transactions, not "Coinbase" the company [19:53]
mircea_popescu akisora this was always the case. [19:53]
akisora oh okay :) [19:53]
mircea_popescu the "coinbase" tx is the tx that pays the miners for the block mined, that 25 btc [19:53]
thestringpuller d00d [19:53]
thestringpuller my iq is dropping [19:53]
thestringpuller i need to stop reading this [19:54]
thestringpuller but it's like watching a really bad movie [19:54]
thestringpuller you cna't look away [19:54]
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[]bot Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under 200$ before Feb" Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.03161579 BTC. Current weight: 88,975. [19:57]
thestringpuller !up hanbot [19:58]
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thestringpuller np [19:59]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what'd that do ? << if your estimate in 'this was exceeds that [necessary budget]' is correct - it will do nothing. [20:09]
asciilifeform *war [20:09]
mircea_popescu perhaps. [20:10]
mircea_popescu the us has a lengthy history of getting involved in wars it can't afford [20:10]
hanbot BingoBoingo (re xoom piece) [20:11]
assbot Despite Xoom's vague assertion that "it doesn't think that customer data or cust - ... ( ) [20:11]
mircea_popescu and the us muppets are currently shivering to death in a "democratic" ukraine that CLEARLY had to have its block sizes increased. [20:11]
mircea_popescu so... you never know. [20:11]
mircea_popescu i always hope on the side of getting to do some raping. and pillaging. [20:11]
mircea_popescu ohai hanbot :D [20:11]
asciilifeform 'here's a lesson all must learn: first you pillage, then you burn' [20:11]
hanbot hallo! [20:12]
mircea_popescu lol@ piece. [20:13]
mircea_popescu totally should contrib moar to qntra. [20:13]
asciilifeform 'going the way of linux' << depressing [20:15]
mircea_popescu depression : just another public service i offer. [20:16]
asciilifeform 'wagner: free; cyanide - extra five pfennigs' [20:17]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14962 @ 0.00064907 = 9.7114 BTC [+] [20:17]
mircea_popescu btw. [20:19]
assbot [FAQ] Lyrics for The Birthday Dirge ... ( ) [20:19]
mircea_popescu Burn the castle, storm the keep, kill the women, save the sheep. [20:20]
asciilifeform 'May your deeds with sword and axe / Equal those with sheep and yaks.' [20:20]
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scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: [20:29]
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asciilifeform ty mircea_popescu [20:34]
asciilifeform did a series of small asteroids just hit fleanode or what. [20:34]
asciilifeform the node i was plugged into - is dead now. [20:34]
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asciilifeform (incidentally, at least every other fleanode host has broken 'sasl' auth. learn which ones, if your client has 'auto-connect' to #b-a) [20:35]
mircea_popescu "Saudi Arabia shipped 54 percent of its crude oil exports to Asia in 2013, with another 17 percent to the United States, according to Saudi Aramco's annual report. It shipped just 5.4 percent to Europe and 6.7 percent to the Mediterranean. In total, crude exports ran at 6.8 million bpd." [20:35]
mircea_popescu "petrodollar" indeed lol [20:35]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform sasl is dysfunctional anyway. [20:36]
asciilifeform well yes. but it is 'duct tape' for the cloak thing. [20:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6738 @ 0.00063478 = 4.2771 BTC [-] [20:36]
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* asciilifeform makes small 'public service announcement' that, with gribble dead, any one of us present company could be hitler. [20:38]
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asciilifeform or rather, at any time could have been hitler, but previously the fuhrer would have been required to put in a little sweat and pwn fleanode wholesale, whereas now he just needs to break nickserv [20:39]
asciilifeform or just slip in a few packets [20:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31400 @ 0.00065281 = 20.4982 BTC [+] {5} [20:42]
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asciilifeform << mega-lol [21:10]
assbot ... ( ) [21:10]
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asciilifeform ^ good 'dissociated press' (shannonizer) output? or actual human speaking ? [21:12]
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asciilifeform ( quoted from ) [21:12]
assbot ... ( ) [21:12]
BingoBoingo !up muh_buttcoins [21:13]
* assbot gives voice to muh_buttcoins [21:13]
muh_buttcoins hi [21:13]
BingoBoingo Hallo muh_buttcoins [21:13]
asciilifeform any scholars of farsi lang. here ? is above a plausible eng. mistranslation? and if so, of what. [21:13]
muh_buttcoins is speculating on the price discouraged here [21:13]
BingoBoingo muh_buttcoins: Not entirely [21:14]
muh_buttcoins what % of your net wealth do you think is a good amount to invest in bitcoin [21:15]
BingoBoingo muh_buttcoins: It depends. What % of your net wealth do you presently depend on for provisioning a roof and some food? [21:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00064556 = 19.5282 BTC [-] {3} [21:16]
muh_buttcoins maybe 3-5% [21:17]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform how would someone know if sometyhing's a mistranslation absernt source matrerial ? [21:17]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: occasionally there are idiomatic residual clues [21:17]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: can't expect hard proof of anything whatsoever, sure. [21:17]
asciilifeform what, for instance, is 'doing satanic laughs ?' [21:18]
BingoBoingo Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know. [21:18]
mircea_popescu afaik no farsi in gtranslate, so there is that [21:18]
asciilifeform the mere emission of a 'muhahahaha' - or some more specific activity peculiar to reverse-engineering purloined fpga bitstreams ? [21:18]
BingoBoingo hanbot: Is that a comment or a article submission? [21:18]
mircea_popescu prolly laughing ass off. [21:18]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is marked 'persian' there. [21:19]
mircea_popescu muh_buttcoins [21:19]
assbot #bitcoin-assets rules and regulations pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [21:19]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and works, about as well as russian-english (which is to say, very threadbare) [21:19]
mircea_popescu esp 2, interesting in your case. [21:19]
mircea_popescu so google for انجام می خندد شیطانی then [21:20]
assbot [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 7653 @ 0.00015 = 1.148 BTC [-] [21:21]
mircea_popescu check it out, didn't break log! yay. [21:21]
* asciilifeform blows dust off textbook [21:21]
muh_buttcoins Do you guys think the Bitstamp owners stole the coins and made up the hacked story? [21:21]
asciilifeform muh_buttcoins: if you were to meet with proof that it was so, or was not so, would the coins thereby unsteal themselves ? [21:22]
asciilifeform muh_buttcoins: i'm genuinely curious as to why you would like to learn the answer to that question [21:23]
muh_buttcoins Just seeking opinions on it [21:23]
asciilifeform how could you ever hope to learn it? [21:24]
mircea_popescu blockchain technologies ? [21:24]
muh_buttcoins ... [21:24]
muh_buttcoins wat [21:24]
mircea_popescu anyway, go read the log, come back in half year or thereabouts. [21:27]
* mircea_popescu removes voice from muh_buttcoins [21:27]
asciilifeform one time, isaac asimov (iirc ?) got tired of idiots badgering him with questions re: subjects in which he could not possibly give informed answer, and some of these even retorted with 'please just give me your gut feeling!' to which he answered that he does not think with his gut, and the questioner is welcome to keep the company of those who do - elsewhere. [21:27]
kakobrekla lol only now i notice, [21:32]
assbot ... ( ) [21:32]
kakobrekla try harder next time. [21:32]
mircea_popescu it almost looks liek nippals [21:32]
kakobrekla bout 600 ips worth. [21:33]
asciilifeform 600?! why so threadbare. [21:33]
kakobrekla idk, twas a http flood , wp prolly [21:34]
kakobrekla i dont care enough to check the logs. [21:34]
asciilifeform there's an interesting similarity in the reactions of the freenode folks (quoted in earlier thread) and that of the wp fool (quoted in recent article on mircea_popescu's site) [21:35]
asciilifeform (reaction to learning of ddos) [21:35]
kakobrekla prolly same dude that is pestering trilema/qntra these days. [21:35]
kakobrekla only bb is up tho :p [21:35]
asciilifeform well yes, but the reactions of the 'nah it isn't our fault, and by the way have you tried plugging it in? and it ain't a bug, but a feature, at any rate' [21:36]
kakobrekla aha [21:36]
mircea_popescu i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth. [21:36]
mircea_popescu they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again, [21:36]
mircea_popescu but on the whole... kinda mcdonald-ish, willy nilly. [21:36]
asciilifeform there's also the interesting fact (i shall offer no attempt at proof here) that a significant chunk of fleanode traffic is botnet c&c [21:37]
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asciilifeform 'mcdonalds' is 'democratic' not only for leprous bomzhes, but for rats, mice, roaches. [21:38]
mircea_popescu that part nobody can actually do much against. [21:38]
mircea_popescu it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is. [21:38]
asciilifeform wouldn't suggest that it is their duty to play exterminator [21:38]
mircea_popescu what there isn't is "forbidden types of content" [21:38]
asciilifeform but when there are more mice than human eater in the restaurant, mass-wise, it reflects poorly. [21:39]
mircea_popescu well... humans are expensive. [21:39]
artifexd mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual? [21:39]
asciilifeform artifexd: answer not obvious from the article ? [21:39]
mircea_popescu artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others. [21:40]
mircea_popescu arguably ircd isn't really any of these, but going by intent rather than practice. [21:40]
* asciilifeform also points out that, as written, apparatus is also meant to replace the classical 'wot' [21:40]
mircea_popescu obviously, will have to. [21:41]
asciilifeform or at least offer a parachute of it. [21:41]
mircea_popescu i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum. [21:41]
mircea_popescu such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace. [21:41]
asciilifeform as late as 18th c. actually. [21:41]
mircea_popescu right. [21:41]
asciilifeform as well as the actual punishments. [21:41]
mircea_popescu << old lilo drama, if anyone's unsatisfied by the piles of bitcoin drama we have fresh on tap. [21:42]
assbot Full Disclosure: The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo of ... ( ) [21:42]
* asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.) [21:42]
mircea_popescu (possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs) [21:43]
asciilifeform i vaguely recall reading his obituary ? [21:44]
mircea_popescu yeah died at some point last decade [21:44]
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mircea_popescu reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting. [21:47]
scoopbot New post on by hanbot: [21:49]
kakobrekla yeah you basically invented ethereum or something [21:49]
mircea_popescu eh ? [21:49]
kakobrekla >As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node). [21:50]
kakobrekla very blockchain 2.0 [21:50]
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mircea_popescu heh [21:50]
mircea_popescu on a lark i connect to efnet. first server simpyl fails to connect. 2nd dumps this [21:50]
assbot * - Breaking one or more of the following policies will get you * - /Kill'ed an - ... ( ) [21:50]
mircea_popescu srsly ? [21:50]
asciilifeform artifexd, others: [21:51]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [21:51]
artifexd !s erasure coding [21:52]
assbot 5 results for 'erasure coding' : [21:52]
asciilifeform artifexd: there are several known ways of doing a 'fountain code' (term of art) - where a bitstring, B, is transformed into a number, N, of shorter bitstrings, whereby X of N can be collected, in any order, and with certain quantity of errors permissible, to reconstitute B. [21:55]
asciilifeform X*N is naturally larger than B. by how much - depends on particular algorithm chosen. [21:55]
asciilifeform the most classic, 'naive' algo for this, known to nearly everyone under one name or another, is reed-solomon. [21:56]
asciilifeform but very high overhead. [21:57]
mircea_popescu right, this is an excessive approach [21:57]
asciilifeform this is one of the very few mathematical/computation subfields where there was real progress in the past twenty years. [21:57]
artifexd I fear that the more complicated the math, the more likely I am to screw it up. [21:58]
asciilifeform something like 'raptor' algorithm gives overhead of, iirc, 3-5%. [21:58]
asciilifeform artifexd: a good compromise, probably, would be the Luby transform. [21:58]
asciilifeform it can be implemented without unusual effort or mathematical education. [21:59]
artifexd Is "can be transmitted via carrier pigeon" really a priority for this project? [22:00]
asciilifeform not as such, imho [22:00]
mircea_popescu nah. [22:00]
asciilifeform but there is no particular reason to glue it to ip on protocol level [22:00]
mircea_popescu ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation [22:01]
mircea_popescu but otherwisew this is supposed to work today. [22:01]
asciilifeform if you can get packet P from your box to other end, using paper letter, but not the net - should be able to do so [22:01]
artifexd TCP does offer advantages. Not having to reinvent/reimplement transmission reliability/ordering is not a minor thing. [22:02]
mircea_popescu agreed. [22:02]
asciilifeform not having to worry about syn floods, etc. plus frustrating most existing traffic analysis widgetry - udp, if done correctly, is a serious win [22:03]
asciilifeform the connection-tracking apparatus of tcp is really half the force behind the sting of 'ddos' [22:04]
artifexd syn floods are a solved problem [22:04]
mircea_popescu it requires someone to do it correctly. [22:04]
asciilifeform undergrad-level problem [22:04]
mircea_popescu artifexd that all depends. relativelysolved lol [22:05]
artifexd Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right? [22:06]
mircea_popescu everything can be bought of the shelf neh ? [22:06]
asciilifeform incidentally, here's a small idea. instead of transmitting snapshots of global state (of 'channel'), have each packet be a reconciliation of one particular pubkey's history. that way there is no need to reassemble gigantic blob. [22:08]
artifexd As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible. [22:09]
asciilifeform artifexd: it is also necessary that they have no temporal correlation to anything. [22:09]
artifexd Right. But "once a second" is in the first draft of the rfc. [22:09]
asciilifeform artifexd: this requires a fixed, steady flow of bits between the two points. [22:10]
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artifexd Yes. [22:10]
mircea_popescu artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis" [22:10]
mircea_popescu let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves. [22:10]
mircea_popescu if the state controls the field of identity it doesn't need much more. [22:11]
mircea_popescu no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust. [22:11]
asciilifeform not suggesting that 'anonymity' warrants complicating design, but if it can be dropped by the gods from the sky at no cost, no reason not to pick up. [22:11]
mircea_popescu sure, that much. [22:11]
mircea_popescu on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done". [22:13]
mircea_popescu should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against". [22:13]
asciilifeform 'prison is like the grave, room can be found for everyone' (ru proverb) [22:13]
artifexd Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't. [22:14]
artifexd It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design. [22:14]
mircea_popescu artifexd nothing prevents the thing to be further upgraded later on. [22:14]
artifexd true story [22:14]
asciilifeform artifexd: you don't strictly speaking need fountain code in first version of this apparatus. [22:14]
mircea_popescu for that matter, we have a much shittier version currently, [22:14]
mircea_popescu and it's worked nothing short of splendidly for many years. [22:14]
mircea_popescu improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements. [22:15]
asciilifeform artifexd: i was trying to suggest another way whereby no packet needs to exceed udp's mtu in size, or be guaranteed to reach its destination in the first try [22:15]
artifexd 576 bytes ain't a lot of space. [22:15]
asciilifeform artifexd: this would be - to reconcile history per-pubkey, rather than global. [22:15]
mircea_popescu another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that. [22:16]
asciilifeform 576 can hold a 2048-bit (ephemeral rsa key!) sig, a reasonably long key fp, and small payload. [22:16]
asciilifeform also appreciate a fine point: [22:17]
mircea_popescu it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only) [22:17]
asciilifeform with udp, a box running said protocol cannot be distinguished by enemy from one which is not [22:17]
asciilifeform if he is not physically sitting on the wire [22:17]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform so ? [22:17]
asciilifeform if uninteresting, disregard. [22:18]
mircea_popescu if done right, a reasonable expectation will be that any box is running it anyway. [22:18]
artifexd Or just put it on port 80 [22:18]
asciilifeform i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy [22:19]
mircea_popescu that's a bit rich. [22:19]
asciilifeform who likes things to be countable [22:19]
asciilifeform and 'quantifiable' [22:19]
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asciilifeform 'threat assessment111!!!11' [22:19]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform do not code for your enemy lol. [22:19]
mircea_popescu we're doing this for ourselves. [22:19]
asciilifeform when we make bullet - we make for enemy [22:19]
asciilifeform not usually for self [22:19]
mircea_popescu this is a tractor not a bullet. [22:20]
asciilifeform tractor with 'maxim.' [22:20]
mircea_popescu if the owner wieshes, sure. [22:20]
asciilifeform i wouldn't bother arguing the udp/tcp point were it not for the fact that this is not a decision that can be easily re-visited. [22:21]
asciilifeform for instance, if you immediately go with 4096-bit ephemeral keys, you're already at 512b. for sig alone. [22:22]
mircea_popescu why not ? [22:22]
mircea_popescu but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp [22:22]
mircea_popescu and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing. [22:22]
asciilifeform it'll be a bit of a procrustean bed [22:23]
mircea_popescu fwiw i wouldn't use sub 4kb keys anyway. [22:23]
asciilifeform me neither [22:23]
mircea_popescu so then. [22:23]
asciilifeform but that was merely one example. [22:23]
asciilifeform (perfectly legit) question was 'wtf should we give a damn about udp mtu, it's a bore' [22:23]
asciilifeform answer is, for the same reason that, after a certain date, rifle calibers were X inch sixteenth lines and not some random contemporary fellow's little finger. [22:24]
asciilifeform with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet. [22:25]
asciilifeform can silently drop it if 'foe.' [22:25]
asciilifeform without allocating memory. [22:25]
asciilifeform if it is not obvious why this is tremendously valuable, try to think about it for a few minutes. [22:26]
* asciilifeform will not waste the gentlemens' time by belabouring the point further [22:26]
mircea_popescu dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack. [22:26]
asciilifeform actually i envision a department hastily assembled, of folks much like myself but underemployed, set to work on it. [22:27]
mircea_popescu heh. [22:28]
mircea_popescu in 2016. [22:28]
mircea_popescu and they'll fail. [22:28]
asciilifeform not even usg as such, needed for this. the crapware folks will readily latch on to anything like a solution to what ails them - which proposed apparatus is; and the antivirus folks will immediately proceed to piss out whatever fluids they can muster, against the problem [22:29]
asciilifeform if correctly built, apparatus will remain standing. but the notion that no one will see it fit to pour excrement upon the head of the early incarnation - is a mistake. [22:30]
mircea_popescu i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc. [22:31]
asciilifeform l0l [22:31]
artifexd I'm burning up a lot (ok, more than a few) credits on [22:31]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [22:31]
mircea_popescu artifexd now you are on to my secret plan [22:31]
asciilifeform artifexd: iirc comments on trilema don't require credits [22:31]
artifexd refreshing the page to see new comments does. [22:31]
* asciilifeform confesses that he has never purchased a credit on mircea_popescu's site... [22:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18116 @ 0.00063644 = 11.5297 BTC [-] [22:32]
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mircea_popescu artifexd use one more then, i answer't. [22:33]
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BingoBoingo [22:33]
assbot While forcing me to pay taxes /USEmbassyBbdos tyrants won't allow me to attend /hashtag/CES2015?src=hash, /hashtag/TNABC?src=hash or anything in the US [22:33]
BingoBoingo [22:34]
assbot The Bitstamp booth at CES today. [22:34]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: s/relied/relayed ? [22:34]
artifexd Oh! That shifts my interpretation somewhat. [22:34]
mircea_popescu is this ver's way of saying he can't afford anything bitcoin-related anymore, not even that thing in miami ? [22:34]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform aye ty [22:34]
mircea_popescu artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too. [22:35]
mircea_popescu but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x" [22:35]
artifexd So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now. [22:36]
asciilifeform i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey) [22:36]
artifexd XFF? [22:36]
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asciilifeform artifexd: imho the 'hello' should stick to bare minimum - establishing the right of the interlocutor to speak to what is on the other end. [22:38]
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asciilifeform if successful (he signed nonce with an ephemeral key for which the machine being spoken to possesses a valid primary wot-key signature, or is in fact transmitting a new ephemeral pubkey signed by such a wotkey) - this creates a session. [22:40]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Seems so. Or it means He's basically Shrem'd except exile instead of jail. [22:40]
asciilifeform artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head. [22:41]
mircea_popescu qui facit per alium facit per se sort of "for" [22:41]
asciilifeform this is one of those problems where it is almost unavoidable. [22:41]
mircea_popescu artifexd yes, it could, of course. [22:41]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00063644 = 1.4002 BTC [-] [22:43]
* 7YUAAAAAL is now known as kyuupichan [22:45]
BingoBoingo 5Is [22:49]
assbot The Tale of the Privacy Pink Panther - HackerOne ... ( ) [22:49]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain? [22:53]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: There are ways... [22:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23800 @ 0.00063644 = 15.1473 BTC [-] [22:54]
ben_vulpes specifics, though, BingoBoingo [22:55]
BingoBoingo First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains. [22:55]
BingoBoingo B and C both still being addresses under your control [22:56]
BingoBoingo From there... party time. [22:56]
Apocalyptic that makes sense [22:56]
BingoBoingo Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part. [22:57]
asciilifeform artifexd, mircea_popescu, others - [22:58]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [22:58]
kakobrekla < still looking for trouble i see. [22:58]
assbot Which bank will have the foresight to give /krakenfx a USD bank account? /Chase /WellsFargo /BofA_News /usbank /Citibank /HSBC_US /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash [22:58]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain [23:00]
mircea_popescu now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain. [23:00]
mircea_popescu the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds. [23:01]
mircea_popescu the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin., [23:01]
Apocalyptic !up hanbot [23:02]
* assbot gives voice to hanbot [23:02]
ben_vulpes i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain. [23:02]
hanbot tyvm [23:02]
ben_vulpes anyways! i must off to tango lessons. [23:02]
hanbot BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot [23:02]
mircea_popescu (if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs) [23:02]
Apocalyptic yw [23:02]
artifexd ben_vulpes: You don't. You keep sending money to yourself until it happens. [23:02]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what do you mean ? it necessarily will occur. [23:02]
mircea_popescu since one contains more txn than the other by definition. [23:02]
mircea_popescu suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ? [23:03]
BingoBoingo hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not? [23:03]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: the 'turn on your laptop to prove it isn't filled exclusively with trotyl' thing is rather tiresome. esp. since nothing keeps a miscreant from replacing only, e.g., half of the cells in his battery with plastique of similar shape and density. [23:04]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: but even the public 'state of the art' was an israeli phone, successfully delivered to intended decapitee, which functioned as intended for a few minutes and then detonated on command. [23:04]
ben_vulpes i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho. [23:04]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: it presumably looked 'correct' on xray. [23:05]
mircea_popescu artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness. [23:05]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells. [23:05]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33088 @ 0.00063644 = 21.0585 BTC [-] [23:06]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo soon enough there's going to be a "no half empty batteries" rule then. [23:06]
mircea_popescu i'd lobby for that if i were a battery maker. [23:06]
asciilifeform neh [23:06]
asciilifeform no batteries, period. [23:06]
asciilifeform must rent in flight, if using, and re-purchase on other end. [23:06]
asciilifeform this will happen shortly prior to the 'naked anaesthetized flights' [23:07]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack [23:07]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: sop. israeli phone, etc [23:07]
asciilifeform this entire subject remaining a subject even in light of (reasonably well-known) fact of extant airplanes being remotely pwnable - is perplexing. [23:08]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Right. Prolly won't be long before ISIS seizes a medical xray and does some experimenting to catch up tp 5Is on this front [23:08]
asciilifeform 'pwnable' isn't even the right word [23:09]
asciilifeform they're approximately what ssl is. [23:09]
asciilifeform pre-masterkeyed. this was quietly ushered into being shortly post '9/11' and mostly forgotten about in public. [23:09]
artifexd asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, et al: [23:09]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [23:09]
asciilifeform artifexd: [23:11]
kakobrekla 502 Bad Gateway [23:11]
artifexd O noes! [23:11]
Apocalyptic ^ [23:11]
asciilifeform damn [23:12]
artifexd You broke it [23:12]
Apocalyptic the page is too successful [23:12]
artifexd Anybody have a good name for this project? ircd isn't going to cut it. [23:15]
mike_c why? let the other ircd change it's name. [23:15]
asciilifeform mike_c: terrible thing to do. [23:15]
mike_c just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D [23:16]
asciilifeform mike_c: phoundation - deserved the treatment; old warhorse irc - doesn't [23:16]
BingoBoingo ArseD? [23:17]
asciilifeform artifexd: if you're up for it, we can continue the thread here while trilema is down [23:18]
artifexd Sure [23:18]
artifexd What'd you say? [23:18]
asciilifeform artifexd: the mechanism for doing what ought to be done has a generic name: 'gossip protocol' [23:19]
asciilifeform that is, you utter a certain thing, or rather, sequence of things, and wish for said fact to become 'universal knowledge' at some point [23:19]
asciilifeform and it is accomplished by people talking to one another: 'have you heard xxxxx?' 'nope, do tell.' or 'sure, heard all about it.' [23:20]
asciilifeform bitcoin implements one variant of this. [23:20]
asciilifeform i will argue that you will want to, in general, 'hash-chain' all of your public (type 'a' in my last visible comment) messages. [23:21]
mircea_popescu it's down ?! [23:21]
asciilifeform hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered. [23:22]
artifexd Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach. [23:22]
artifexd I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important. [23:23]
asciilifeform if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle. [23:23]
asciilifeform thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing. [23:24]
asciilifeform so it may as well apply to everything. [23:24]
asciilifeform there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again. [23:24]
Apocalyptic so is qntra for me [23:24]
mircea_popescu well i just responded... [23:24]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: your site is down as seen from my perch [23:25]
artifexd If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length) [23:25]
asciilifeform like bitcoin. [23:25]
mircea_popescu [23:25]
mircea_popescu meanwhile... [23:25]
assbot Down For Everyone Or Just Me -> Check if your website is down or up? ... ( ) [23:25]
artifexd And now we have a blockchain growth problem. [23:25]
asciilifeform how is it a problem ? [23:25]
mircea_popescu srsly, no blockchain. [23:25]
asciilifeform no blockchain. just chain. [23:25]
mircea_popescu the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants. [23:26]
mircea_popescu but basically the bundle should cover the last hour. [23:26]
asciilifeform if no chain: malicious node can selectively drop messages. [23:27]
Apocalyptic mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly [23:27]
asciilifeform notice you don't have to store the chain permanently [23:27]
asciilifeform just rolling window. [23:28]
asciilifeform Apocalyptic: same here [23:28]
artifexd An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds. [23:28]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform so ? [23:28]
artifexd If a bundle is sent every second. [23:28]
mircea_popescu artifexd ah that's a point. my 1hour was outer limit. [23:28]
* cardigm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [23:29]
* cardigm (~Cardigm@gateway/tor-sasl/cardigm) has joined #bitcoin-assets [23:29]
asciilifeform a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages. [23:29]
mircea_popescu this is likely actually. [23:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8200 @ 0.00063644 = 5.2188 BTC [-] [23:29]
asciilifeform why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk [23:29]
mircea_popescu because not its job. [23:30]
artifexd Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now. [23:30]
asciilifeform and synchronize based on histories of individual pubkeys [23:30]
mircea_popescu because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story. [23:30]
asciilifeform the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin. [23:30]
asciilifeform if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node. [23:31]
artifexd Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually. [23:32]
asciilifeform this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize. [23:32]
* assbot removes voice from hanbot [23:32]
mircea_popescu it's okay for slow nodes to lose messages [23:32]
mircea_popescu this is what the definition of "Slow" is. [23:32]
mircea_popescu if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages. [23:32]
artifexd asciilifeform: What you want sounds very similar to bitmessage, no? [23:33]
asciilifeform perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat. [23:33]
asciilifeform 'store and forward' [23:33]
artifexd usenet is pretty damn fast. [23:33]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's not really a log-with-chat. [23:33]
mircea_popescu it's a chat., [23:33]
asciilifeform the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages. [23:33]
mircea_popescu yes, because they're not signed nor crypted. [23:34]
asciilifeform even when they are. [23:34]
artifexd The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high. [23:34]
asciilifeform except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish [23:34]
asciilifeform through the ravages of time [23:34]
mircea_popescu a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously. [23:34]
asciilifeform well yes. [23:35]
mircea_popescu how you slice the 99% is uninteresting. [23:35]
asciilifeform now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation. [23:35]
artifexd Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on trilema? [23:36]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's in the hello message. [23:36]
asciilifeform hence atomic operation, aha [23:36]
mircea_popescu each server sends its own view, you compile what interests you. [23:37]
asciilifeform inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times. [23:37]
asciilifeform i doubt that this can be avoided entirely [23:37]
mircea_popescu necessarioly. [23:37]
mircea_popescu thjere is no such thing as "one" wot. [23:37]
* Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [23:37]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00063432 = 5.7089 BTC [-] {2} [23:37]
mircea_popescu for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view. [23:37]
mircea_popescu there is no center wot. [23:37]
asciilifeform only if it, as it does presently, lives in just one specially-designated temple [23:37]
mircea_popescu right. [23:37]
mircea_popescu which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched. [23:38]
mircea_popescu the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing. [23:38]
asciilifeform i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time. [23:38]
asciilifeform !s kyristor [23:38]
assbot 14 results for 'kyristor' : [23:38]
mircea_popescu as assbot's usage over timne has shown [23:38]
asciilifeform before i learned of the wot that we now use. [23:38]
asciilifeform (*even before) [23:38]
asciilifeform the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes. [23:39]
asciilifeform it isn't a scalar. [23:39]
asciilifeform [23:39]
assbot Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots. [23:39]
BingoBoingo lol at Slate [23:40]
assbot PEGIDA marches: Xenophobia is going mainstream in Germany. ... ( ) [23:40]
artifexd Piss... trilema is 502ing again [23:40]
artifexd Which I can only assume means it ate my comment. [23:40]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: << another mega-lol from same site [23:41]
assbot Russian hedge fund founder disappears with all the firm's money. ... ( ) [23:41]
mircea_popescu artifexd umm... i see it but not your comment. [23:42]
mircea_popescu is this some routing mishmashing or something ? [23:42]
* asciilifeform also cannot connect now [23:42]
* asciilifeform probably caught in spam/ddos trap [23:43]
mircea_popescu a there it is. [23:43]
mircea_popescu it... didn't eat your comment lol [23:43]
artifexd It did. [23:43]
artifexd I refreshed the post page. :) [23:43]
mircea_popescu answer't. [23:44]
mircea_popescu lettuce continue this convo while asciilifeform feels all left out :D [23:44]
Usage: QUERY [-nofocus] , opens up a new privmsg window to someone [23:45]
asciilifeform l0l [23:45]
Apocalyptic how long are the bans typically scheduled for ? [23:45]
mircea_popescu depends, from an hour up [23:46]
artifexd Ok. The layers are forming in my head. [23:47]
* OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [23:47]
* ddddddd (637fb947@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #bitcoin-assets [23:54]
BingoBoingo !up ddddddd [23:56]
* assbot gives voice to ddddddd [23:56]
* ddddddd has quit (Client Quit) [23:56]
Category: Logs
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