Forum logs for 07 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'gossipd' << see 'gossip protocols', very interesting subfield in maths. [00:02]
mircea_popescu aham [00:02]
asciilifeform highly recommended to anyone who took part in or enjoyed reading this thread. [00:02]
mircea_popescu anyway, THAT is why not signed messages. [00:02]
mircea_popescu perfect deniability, much better than forward secrecy [00:02]
mircea_popescu jurov ^ [00:02]
asciilifeform still need signed hellos [00:02]
mircea_popescu since by very definition gestapo can't trust A B C [00:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform sure, but not the same thing. [00:03]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message [00:04]
asciilifeform instead of one [00:04]
mircea_popescu how so ? [00:04]
asciilifeform (wot operations still need to be signed, as well as 'hello' session negotiations.) [00:04]
mircea_popescu no. [00:04]
asciilifeform hm? [00:04]
mircea_popescu each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure [00:04]
mircea_popescu each server compiles wot list for use of its user from helos received [00:04]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00063295 = 10.507 BTC [-] [00:05]
* asciilifeform marches off to thinking room to properly think about this. [00:05]
asciilifeform and to pet neglected pet [00:05]
* tryphe has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [00:12]
artifexd Wait. Wut? [00:15]
mircea_popescu which part. [00:16]
artifexd You specifically don't want messages signed? [00:16]
artifexd For deniability? [00:16]
mircea_popescu there's no signing in there, is there ? [00:17]
artifexd There is not. I took that as an oversight. [00:17]
mircea_popescu also. [00:17]
assbot Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message [00:17]
mircea_popescu no, it's not an oversight. [00:17]
artifexd When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C? [00:18]
mircea_popescu hm ? [00:18]
artifexd Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D. [00:18]
mircea_popescu so ? [00:18]
mircea_popescu his job to police his lists. [00:18]
artifexd And D is full of shit. [00:18]
* mike_c has quit () [00:18]
artifexd What stops server A from inventing messages by B? [00:20]
mircea_popescu don't trust people you don't trust and so you won't have to answer unpleasant questions from people whose trust you value. [00:20]
mircea_popescu nothing. [00:20]
mircea_popescu in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C. [00:20]
artifexd That seems... less than ideal. [00:20]
mircea_popescu why ? [00:21]
artifexd Because we are building a new system from the ground up. [00:21]
mircea_popescu right. [00:21]
mircea_popescu so ? [00:21]
BingoBoingo Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance? [00:21]
mircea_popescu good idea that bb. [00:21]
artifexd Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset? [00:22]
mircea_popescu because it's chat. [00:22]
mircea_popescu do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ? [00:22]
artifexd Kinda [00:23]
mircea_popescu well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus [00:23]
mircea_popescu than sign a contract there. [00:23]
kakobrekla dont chat with strangers. [00:23]
artifexd If by "sign" you mean "have some effing clue who just said that" [00:23]
mircea_popescu for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? [00:23]
mircea_popescu i can use it later. [00:23]
mircea_popescu artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists [00:24]
mircea_popescu in the sense your friend sayus he does. [00:24]
mircea_popescu this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders. [00:24]
BingoBoingo for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big. [00:25]
artifexd It would be a timestamped "No". [00:25]
mircea_popescu moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz". [00:26]
mircea_popescu the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say. [00:26]
mircea_popescu artifexd so if it is. [00:26]
BingoBoingo [00:26]
artifexd When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before. [00:28]
artifexd Signing messages would provide that same assurance. But automatically. [00:28]
mircea_popescu and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. [00:28]
artifexd Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key. [00:28]
mircea_popescu without a requirement to sign. [00:28]
mircea_popescu however, if you only know asciilifeform and he;'s relying my chat, [00:28]
mircea_popescu for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination. [00:29]
artifexd Exactly [00:29]
mircea_popescu this is ideal. [00:29]
asciilifeform let's see if i misunderstood something. [00:29]
asciilifeform in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked? [00:30]
mircea_popescu incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and trilema comments are implementations. [00:30]
asciilifeform rather than permanent blockchain-style world record [00:30]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, disgorge on handshake but yea [00:30]
asciilifeform well then: [00:30]
asciilifeform let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub; [00:30]
asciilifeform a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection [00:31]
mircea_popescu lol. the actual ship mircea is an old barque. [00:31]
assbot Mircea (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( ) [00:31]
asciilifeform during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ? [00:31]
asciilifeform barque << haha yes, knew this [00:31]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you still have an old list. [00:32]
asciilifeform worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ? [00:32]
asciilifeform aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc. [00:32]
mircea_popescu which ius no different from the current situation [00:32]
asciilifeform and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce. [00:32]
asciilifeform because i am me and not him [00:32]
mircea_popescu if i die tomorrow who will maintain my wot ? [00:32]
mircea_popescu uhhh... nobody. [00:32]
asciilifeform but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed [00:32]
* copumpkin is now known as drunkplatypus [00:32]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to" [00:32]
asciilifeform which in this one respect is an arguable improvement over the hypothetical apparatus [00:32]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha! [00:33]
mircea_popescu i do not see it. [00:33]
mircea_popescu how do you know it's not been diddled ? [00:33]
mircea_popescu you'd have to ask an elder or two anyway. [00:33]
asciilifeform that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain! [00:33]
asciilifeform to borrow a greenspunish, [00:33]
asciilifeform *greenspunism [00:33]
asciilifeform 'those who will not' xxx 'are doomed to' yyy 'it' [00:33]
mircea_popescu inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy [00:33]
* drunkplatypus is now known as copumpkin [00:33]
mircea_popescu it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed. [00:33]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea' [00:34]
asciilifeform why not cut straight to chase. [00:34]
mircea_popescu very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online. [00:34]
asciilifeform not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses. [00:35]
mircea_popescu for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is. [00:35]
mircea_popescu for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn. [00:35]
asciilifeform and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite. [00:35]
mircea_popescu will be honored once known. ignored meanwhiule. [00:35]
asciilifeform under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then [00:36]
asciilifeform or would have to station it shore-side somehow [00:36]
mircea_popescu well, if you can only net once in 2 months you can only net once in 2 months. [00:36]
mircea_popescu some of your stuff will be out of date. [00:36]
asciilifeform we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors [00:36]
mircea_popescu i still dun see it. [00:36]
mircea_popescu but anyway, relays are strength not weakness here. [00:37]
asciilifeform when part of mechanism, by spec and by reliable practice sans hand-holding [00:37]
asciilifeform think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala. [00:37]
asciilifeform hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above. [00:37]
asciilifeform ('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly) [00:38]
mircea_popescu what's adequate for moving currency is not adequate for moving words. [00:38]
* devthedev (~devthedev@unaffiliated/devthedev) has joined #bitcoin-assets [00:39]
asciilifeform wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words [00:39]
mircea_popescu i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd [00:40]
artifexd So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble? [00:40]
asciilifeform the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net [00:40]
asciilifeform i think it is ludicrous. [00:40]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ? [00:40]
asciilifeform disappear until i get plugged back in [00:40]
mircea_popescu artifexd thgat it has no central servers, for one. [00:40]
asciilifeform which perhaps never, because atomic bomb fell on me. [00:41]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy! [00:41]
mircea_popescu this is just like it is now! everything! [00:41]
asciilifeform and what can they do with this copy? [00:41]
asciilifeform consult it while forming own wot ratings, informally? [00:41]
mircea_popescu anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position. [00:41]
asciilifeform by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ? [00:41]
mircea_popescu by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies. [00:42]
asciilifeform someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ? [00:42]
mircea_popescu an' shall remember you. [00:42]
mircea_popescu chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat. [00:42]
mircea_popescu permanence is to be ensured by other means [00:42]
asciilifeform chat - sure [00:42]
asciilifeform wot ?? [00:42]
mircea_popescu (this doesn't replace notarybot, for instance) [00:42]
asciilifeform if wot ratings were archived - it could. [00:43]
mircea_popescu anyone can archive them! [00:43]
mircea_popescu yourself included. [00:43]
asciilifeform can != will reliably [00:43]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00063127 = 11.1735 BTC [-] {2} [00:43]
mircea_popescu i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability. [00:43]
asciilifeform let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ? [00:43]
mircea_popescu but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there. [00:44]
asciilifeform dead tree counts [00:44]
asciilifeform probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho. [00:44]
asciilifeform a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will. [00:45]
asciilifeform in real time. [00:45]
mircea_popescu because why not ? [00:45]
asciilifeform because it is in a bottle. [00:45]
mircea_popescu things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers [00:46]
mircea_popescu present wot would benefit immensely from some dead hand cleanning as it is. [00:46]
asciilifeform this is actually an ancient debate in the maths-of-p2p-nets world [00:46]
mircea_popescu i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer. [00:46]
asciilifeform whether father time should forget [00:46]
asciilifeform and if so, how. [00:46]
mircea_popescu exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it [00:47]
mircea_popescu once that's gone... main morte. [00:47]
mircea_popescu leave the earth to better, later men. [00:47]
asciilifeform there are obvious wins to this approach. but opens the question of what, e.g., my brother, is to do with my wotgraph once my ship goes down. [00:47]
mircea_popescu whatever he wants. [00:48]
mircea_popescu we knowthis because he is here. you, are not. [00:48]
asciilifeform assuming he wishes it to march on [00:48]
asciilifeform is he to host it on an 'obelisk' node which does nothing else but relay it ? [00:48]
mircea_popescu could, easily. [00:48]
asciilifeform or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information) [00:48]
mircea_popescu also could, also easily. [00:48]
mircea_popescu what information was lost ? [00:49]
mircea_popescu the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were. [00:49]
mircea_popescu that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone. [00:49]
asciilifeform where the change propagates. [00:49]
asciilifeform right now this seems far easier than it will turn out to be on adult apparatus. [00:49]
mircea_popescu aha ? [00:50]
asciilifeform the 'dynamicity' of new-wot (vs classical wot) creates some very strong incentives for hooligans of all stripes [00:50]
asciilifeform to attempt to disrupt signal, locate mirrors [00:51]
mircea_popescu i still don't see there's a difference. [00:51]
asciilifeform to create temporary warps in the fabric of wot. [00:51]
mircea_popescu are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ? [00:51]
asciilifeform well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary [00:52]
mircea_popescu entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it. [00:52]
asciilifeform i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary [00:52]
mircea_popescu the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live. [00:52]
asciilifeform because things that are tedious and must be done manually, tend to not get done. [00:52]
mircea_popescu so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants. [00:52]
asciilifeform let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs [00:53]
mircea_popescu why ? [00:53]
mircea_popescu they can cache whichever way they wish/ [00:54]
asciilifeform not so many ways to choose from if result is to behave functionally live [00:54]
asciilifeform (i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves) [00:54]
asciilifeform in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway [00:54]
mircea_popescu yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one. [00:55]
mircea_popescu o.O [00:55]
asciilifeform i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat [00:55]
artifexd I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors. [00:57]
asciilifeform << possibly very relevant [00:57]
assbot THE PETRIFIED WORLD (Robert Sheckley) - ... ( ) [00:57]
asciilifeform (1971 story) [00:57]
artifexd Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no. [00:58]
asciilifeform this is why i suggested chaining. [00:59]
asciilifeform prevents a future forged conversation stitched out of words you have uttered. [00:59]
asciilifeform (of signed gibblets, anyway) [00:59]
artifexd millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too. [01:00]
mircea_popescu artifexd explain why you WOULD sign them. [01:00]
asciilifeform artifexd: next thing you know we're doing lamport clocks. [01:00]
artifexd Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough. [01:00]
mircea_popescu and yes, unixtime timestamps. [01:00]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11344 @ 0.00062984 = 7.1449 BTC [-] [01:01]
artifexd Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed? [01:01]
mircea_popescu why would you require chat lines be signed. [01:01]
mircea_popescu i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken. [01:02]
artifexd Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit. [01:02]
mircea_popescu you can call bullshit in the gossipd as well. [01:02]
mircea_popescu that's provided. [01:02]
asciilifeform let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key [01:02]
mircea_popescu if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too. [01:02]
mircea_popescu by signign it. [01:02]
asciilifeform how is anything originating in my machine to leave my node without being signed ? [01:03]
artifexd I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server. [01:03]
mircea_popescu artifexd you have SOME assurance. [01:03]
mircea_popescu if you know bob, this is cryptographic. [01:03]
mircea_popescu if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway. [01:03]
asciilifeform ^ not entirely [01:04]
artifexd I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint. [01:04]
asciilifeform you can still know that bob(today) is (or is not) same as bob(next month) [01:04]
mircea_popescu right. [01:04]
mircea_popescu which is EXACTLY as it is anyway [01:04]
asciilifeform not necessarily same person, but same key (e.g., is same bourbaki) [01:04]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform herp. [01:04]
mircea_popescu so you can still know... nothing much. [01:05]
asciilifeform arguing that this can be useful information [01:05]
artifexd Part of the trust is that you can handle a key. [01:05]
asciilifeform in some truly perverse cases [01:05]
mircea_popescu anything can be useful information. [01:05]
mircea_popescu artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you. [01:05]
mircea_popescu ANYWAY. [01:05]
mircea_popescu with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust [01:05]
mircea_popescu just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers. [01:05]
* asciilifeform did not imagine that there were. [01:06]
mircea_popescu i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust. [01:06]
artifexd Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel. [01:06]
mircea_popescu the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest. [01:06]
asciilifeform 'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston. [01:06]
artifexd Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month) [01:07]
asciilifeform nooo [01:07]
asciilifeform trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word. [01:07]
artifexd I mean as in trust the message [01:07]
asciilifeform please don't put it on life support, it needs to die [01:07]
mircea_popescu artifexd hardly if that. [01:07]
mircea_popescu for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys. [01:08]
artifexd signed messages allow someone to build an identity [01:08]
mircea_popescu sure, they do. [01:08]
mircea_popescu but more's the point : signed messages allow the world to build an adversative identity of someone. [01:08]
mircea_popescu this is pointedly against the purpose of chat. [01:08]
artifexd As you have preached in the past, the identity built over time, secured by wot, has value. [01:09]
artifexd Take away the ability to build an identity and what's left? [01:09]
mircea_popescu it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot. [01:09]
mircea_popescu there's a great progression at work there. [01:09]
artifexd The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint. [01:09]
mircea_popescu such ability is not taken away. [01:09]
artifexd Could be him. Could not. Who knows. [01:09]
mircea_popescu it does, if the sender is in your list. [01:09]
mircea_popescu it does not, if he is not. [01:09]
mircea_popescu in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular. [01:10]
mircea_popescu this is correct. [01:10]
mircea_popescu because in point of fact ddddd is noone in particular. [01:10]
mircea_popescu they even say this, the various random guys the wind blows in. "who are you ?" "nobody in particular". [01:11]
thestringpuller !s gribble [01:11]
assbot 15680 results for 'gribble' : [01:11]
artifexd How do you imagine bootstrapping this thing? [01:12]
artifexd Do we get in here, ident, and pass around ip addresses? [01:12]
artifexd Is that the start? [01:12]
mircea_popescu pretty much [01:13]
mircea_popescu you know, just like "up me please" but not centrally maintained. [01:13]
mircea_popescu just ask your friends. [01:13]
thestringpuller mircea_popescu: what would the result of someone forking the WoT be? [01:13]
* Phraust has quit (Quit: Phraust) [01:13]
mircea_popescu a wot fork ? [01:14]
thestringpuller yah [01:14]
mircea_popescu right. [01:14]
thestringpuller altgribble becomes hitler and makes his own db clones from nanotubes [01:14]
thestringpuller some "people" start using it [01:14]
thestringpuller but nanotube never comes back [01:14]
mircea_popescu what's wrong with using an alt wot ? [01:14]
thestringpuller or comes back months later (super worst case) [01:14]
thestringpuller that's my question [01:14]
mircea_popescu if you trust whoever maintains it... go ahead. [01:14]
mircea_popescu i have nfi who even runs altgribble. who is it ? [01:15]
thestringpuller well altgribble was generatlized example [01:15]
artifexd After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful [01:15]
artifexd shit"? [01:15]
thestringpuller mexican_gribble etc [01:15]
mircea_popescu artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in [01:15]
mircea_popescu how does one get into l1 atm ? [01:15]
mircea_popescu l2* [01:15]
mircea_popescu how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar." [01:17]
mircea_popescu if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us, [01:17]
artifexd You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged. [01:18]
mircea_popescu but it'll look like obama[via lampelina] to kako. who can then go gtfo wtf you smokin beich ?! [01:18]
mircea_popescu artifexd you gotta get an up before you can voice. eh ? [01:18]
kakobrekla actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this. [01:18]
artifexd Yeah. [01:18]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla sorry [01:19]
artifexd Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad. [01:20]
mircea_popescu no. [01:20]
thestringpuller hanbot: nice qntra submission [01:20]
artifexd No? [01:20]
mircea_popescu we were discussing why it is good, and it turns out it isn't particularly, and so parsimony dictates it stays out. [01:20]
kakobrekla no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with. [01:21]
artifexd Preventing some douche from Bumfuck, Idaho from impersonating your hard built identity "isn't particularly good"? [01:22]
mircea_popescu artifexd this prevention is guaranteed by design as is. [01:22]
mircea_popescu he can only impersonate you to folk that don't know you. [01:22]
artifexd He can only impersonate me to people who don't have an absolutely direct connection to me. [01:23]
mircea_popescu or care to get one or know how. [01:23]
mircea_popescu technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu [01:23]
mircea_popescu so what if it's the wrong numbers ? [01:23]
artifexd That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea. [01:24]
mircea_popescu for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D. [01:24]
mircea_popescu artifexd the computer wouldn't know. [01:25]
mircea_popescu if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned. [01:25]
artifexd Huh? Of course it would. [01:25]
mircea_popescu nope. [01:25]
mircea_popescu computer only finds through a direct connection. [01:25]
artifexd I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name. [01:26]
mircea_popescu according to whom ? [01:26]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it. [01:26]
mircea_popescu bam. [01:26]
artifexd What does that have to do with anything>? [01:27]
mircea_popescu everything ? [01:27]
mircea_popescu it's exactly the scenario you're proposing. [01:27]
artifexd Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key. [01:28]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into [01:28]
mircea_popescu artifexd that's entirely up to me. [01:28]
kakobrekla yeah but you are just weird like that. [01:29]
mircea_popescu s/anyone/everyone [01:29]
artifexd Sure. If you have two keys in your wot and you want to give them both the same name. Knock yourself out. [01:29]
artifexd But *you* have to make the choice to be confusing. [01:29]
asciilifeform here's an observation: [01:29]
artifexd The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities. [01:30]
asciilifeform i am not presently authenticated via 'gribble' [01:30]
mircea_popescu artifexd dubious at best. [01:30]
asciilifeform how many of the folks present are ready to believe that this 'asciilifeform' is the same animal they are accustomed to enduring the company of in #b-a ? [01:30]
asciilifeform and why? [01:30]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can tell, you sound just like him. [01:30]
asciilifeform well sure. [01:30]
asciilifeform but this is an 'informal bug-ridden implementation' of message signing. [01:31]
mircea_popescu what, you just bathed in the same bath twice ? [01:31]
asciilifeform when i grunt on the impalement pole, i will probably not be able to deny these words either, to the inquisitor, for the same reason [01:31]
asciilifeform 'you sound just like him!' [01:31]
artifexd dubious? huh? how? the maths are the maths. [01:31]
asciilifeform hence the 'adverse identity' thing [01:31]
asciilifeform even if we have no sigs [01:31]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. *I*. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet. [01:31]
mircea_popescu you do not wish to make preet any gifts. [01:31]
asciilifeform sigs are pure win, for a creature like myself, just about everything that comes out of my mouth is 'signed' enough for inquisitor! [01:31]
asciilifeform why not sign for friends? [01:32]
mircea_popescu which is why this is an ircd fork rather than whatever, just apt-get it. [01:32]
mircea_popescu there is no such thing as "sign for friends" outside of the model detailed in my spec. [01:32]
mircea_popescu that's what that is. "signed, but for friends only" [01:32]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00079058 = 1.5812 BTC [-] {5} [01:32]
asciilifeform the only possible solution to preet signing as asciilifeform, or mircea_popescu, or whoever, is to pull the pin when he comes uninvited. [01:32]
mircea_popescu mno. [01:32]
mircea_popescu consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court. [01:33]
mircea_popescu "and then you said so and so" "um how you know this ?" "from node C" "well it lied to you" [01:33]
mircea_popescu "no it didn't!!1" "case dismissed" "but yur honor!!1" [01:33]
asciilifeform imho it is far from a sure thing that this will so much as add one drop of sweat to a usg inquisitor's work [01:33]
artifexd Your argument is that you WANT deniability? [01:33]
mircea_popescu artifexd my argument is that deniability must be baked in or not had. [01:34]
mircea_popescu and for chat it must be had. and so... it must be baked in. [01:34]
artifexd Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was. [01:34]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there is another way to bake it in. [01:34]
BingoBoingo Even preet loses cases [01:35]
mircea_popescu artifexd it isn't ? [01:35]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: consider: a subclass of private message where you ask a friend to pass along, to the 'room', some words. [01:35]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha ? [01:35]
asciilifeform explicitly proclaimed as 'not his own' [01:35]
asciilifeform the ears - can choose to believe, or not, naturally [01:35]
asciilifeform but this is inescapable [01:35]
mircea_popescu i don't follow. [01:35]
asciilifeform say mircea_popescu wishes to deniably utter the words 'brezhnev sucks'. he then asks me to utter, 'my friend, who wishes to stay unmarked, wishes to inform the ladies and gentlemen of this network that brezhnev sucks' [01:36]
mircea_popescu artifexd suppose you don't reg your name, and someone comes in as artifexd and says things. should you be forced somehow to say if this is the case or not ? [01:36]
asciilifeform we thus have a degree of deniability, about the same as in the case of no messages carrying signatures [01:37]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i do not wish to stay unmarked. [01:37]
asciilifeform (contrieved example) [01:37]
mircea_popescu and i don't want "a degree" of deniability. [01:37]
asciilifeform as i reckon, same degree as the unsigned-message scenario [01:37]
mircea_popescu i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends. [01:37]
mircea_popescu which is exactly how speech has functioned, since the dawn of time, to create what is known as the free world. [01:38]
asciilifeform 'absolutes' are tricky. [01:38]
mircea_popescu high time computers conform. [01:38]
mircea_popescu not with the spec as given, imo. [01:38]
asciilifeform let's work out, using spec as given in mircea_popescu's article: what does an inquisitor know about a particular utterance [01:38]
asciilifeform if he were to put a node in his pocket [01:38]
asciilifeform or a series of nodes [01:38]
mircea_popescu okay. [01:38]
asciilifeform to how many possible pubkeys (and presumably, but not automagically, people) can he narrow down the 'brezhnev sucks' ? [01:39]
asciilifeform (typically) [01:39]
mircea_popescu i dun see how that'd be answered. [01:39]
mircea_popescu but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time. [01:40]
asciilifeform that's what 'deniability' means, unless i catastrophically misunderstand the concept [01:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00062617 = 21.916 BTC [-] {2} [01:40]
mircea_popescu well, not how i understand it at any rate. [01:40]
mircea_popescu deniability is "you X" "no." [01:41]
* asciilifeform is transported to grade school mentally [01:41]
mircea_popescu as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care." [01:41]
asciilifeform teacher: 'it was one of you boys' [01:41]
mircea_popescu "get something substantial and bother me again" [01:42]
artifexd How many connections to other servers do you imagine that you will have? You as in you mircea_popescu. [01:42]
artifexd 10? 60? 2000? [01:43]
artifexd 1? [01:43]
* asciilifeform gets a distinct impression that mircea_popescu is still thinking of the adversary as being bound by laws, courts, procedures of evidence-gathering. [01:43]
mircea_popescu artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands. [01:43]
* badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) has joined #bitcoin-assets [01:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly. [01:43]
* asciilifeform rather thinks that this is a military matter, where adversary can afford to ransack and search 100 houses but not 100,000, and hence his gathering bits of info - matters [01:43]
* paxtoncamaro91 (~paxtoncam@unaffiliated/paxtoncamaro91) has joined #bitcoin-assets [01:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces. [01:44]
* asciilifeform would much like to hear more about this later [01:44]
mircea_popescu ie, the police state only exists now and again, when the state of technology is poor enough. [01:44]
asciilifeform naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit) [01:45]
asciilifeform that will have to be re-shaped into something quite else (his words) when enemy is dead [01:45]
mircea_popescu artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections. [01:45]
mircea_popescu then again, the number of people people know is, from memory 1-200. [01:45]
mircea_popescu admitting everyone's awake at the same time. [01:46]
* asciilifeform still can't escape the feeling that hypothetical apparatus is a weapon, at least for the time being, that must be sharp enough to penetrate a particular tough grizzly hide if it is to carry on to being whatever it was meant to be... [01:46]
mircea_popescu and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection. [01:46]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing. [01:46]
mircea_popescu since we're fixing ircd, might as well actually do it. [01:46]
asciilifeform at the very least, one ought to have the option of (unobtrusively!) signing every line [01:47]
asciilifeform i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a. [01:47]
mircea_popescu i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing. [01:48]
asciilifeform in no small part because i cannot really picture my impalement or reprieve as hinging on attribution of what i've said [01:48]
artifexd I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately, [01:48]
artifexd cool. Keep the connection. If not, dump it. [01:48]
asciilifeform why is it necessary to involve ip addresses ? [01:48]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform gotta route packets somehow. [01:49]
mircea_popescu artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure. [01:49]
artifexd As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him) [01:49]
asciilifeform let's say i communicate over courier. [01:49]
asciilifeform what is my 'ip address' then ? [01:49]
mircea_popescu spec was simpler on the assumption that since the helo package is keyed to the supposed key of the server, there's no need to challenge [01:49]
mircea_popescu if hje can decrypt it's him alright. [01:49]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it touches the network somewhere. [01:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19498 @ 0.00061581 = 12.0071 BTC [-] [01:49]
artifexd Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have. [01:50]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: when i sign my 'hello' i will have no idea where it will enter the network. [01:50]
artifexd I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you. [01:51]
asciilifeform it is quite impossible to sign your ip address if you communicate via courier who may stop at one of sixteen ports. [01:51]
artifexd asciilifeform: You have to have some way of receiving return messages, right? [01:51]
asciilifeform not necessarily [01:51]
asciilifeform it could be my final message as boat goes down. [01:52]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform then put it in a pastebin [01:52]
asciilifeform sent - in bottle. [01:52]
mircea_popescu and someone will link it. [01:52]
asciilifeform out of band? [01:52]
mircea_popescu sure. [01:52]
asciilifeform why is this necessary? [01:52]
mircea_popescu cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network. [01:52]
mircea_popescu so you're going to have to carry the shoe horn yourself. [01:52]
asciilifeform by way of a considerably simpler design [01:53]
asciilifeform (unitary hello+signature packet) [01:53]
artifexd Sure. I have no issue with that. [01:53]
mircea_popescu uh. [01:53]
mircea_popescu the helo as it is contains some signed material. [01:53]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00064399 = 6.7619 BTC [+] {2} [01:53]
mircea_popescu what would you sign ? [01:53]
* asciilifeform will, likely, happily play with whatever apparatus you folks come up with, but wishes that the choice be an informed one on the part of the implementers, rather than happenstance. [01:54]
mircea_popescu o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this. [01:55]
artifexd Sign whatever you want. As long as the timestamp is recent. [01:55]
* mircea_popescu waves. [01:55]
mircea_popescu artifexd so how is it different from the project you thouight it was ? [01:55]
asciilifeform artifexd: << basic summary of the thing i was mainly on about. [01:56]
assbot Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet. [01:56]
artifexd I wasn't imagining so many direct connections. [01:56]
mircea_popescu artifexd well, dunbar's number as a general rule. [01:56]
artifexd I had imagined few connections, more routing. [01:56]
mircea_popescu should fit on consumer box. [01:56]
mircea_popescu if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem [01:56]
artifexd I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible. [01:58]
mircea_popescu this would fit, if you cared to make it fit [01:58]
mircea_popescu currently therte's 140 people here. [01:58]
* asciilifeform also formed this impression. [01:58]
mircea_popescu so... yes. [01:58]
artifexd I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths. [01:58]
mircea_popescu nah. too easy to attack that graph. [01:59]
asciilifeform who among those present, other than mircea_popescu, wishes to be impersonateable (deniable) by default ? [01:59]
artifexd Not I [01:59]
asciilifeform not 'democratizing', just probing waters [01:59]
mircea_popescu what's the big deal ? [01:59]
mircea_popescu i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues. [01:59]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and you like it ? [01:59]
mircea_popescu i have enough experience with it to know it does exactly nothing. [02:00]
asciilifeform i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed [02:00]
artifexd I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated. [02:00]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform believed is one thing. [02:00]
mircea_popescu artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number. [02:00]
artifexd asciilifeform: That is my desire as well [02:00]
mircea_popescu it won't be believed (meaningfully). [02:01]
asciilifeform will be believed by sufficiently many otherwise-clueful folks [02:01]
mircea_popescu what people who have no clue believe resting squarely outside not of your control, but THIS WORLD. [02:01]
asciilifeform because signatures are so rare. [02:01]
* WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) [02:01]
mircea_popescu perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact [02:01]
asciilifeform if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter. [02:01]
mircea_popescu like in the case of rg ? [02:02]
mircea_popescu this is an illusion. [02:02]
artifexd What is "preet"? [02:02]
asciilifeform artifexd: an infamous judge where i live [02:02]
asciilifeform artifexd: 'kangaroo court' [02:02]
asciilifeform artifexd: he specializes in high-profile show trials. quite like roland freisler (top judge in 3rd reich) [02:03]
mircea_popescu artifexd the roland freisler of our times, preet bharara. crown's prosecutor for southern ny / rico conspiracy lynchpin. [02:03]
artifexd ok [02:03]
mircea_popescu lmao that sounded like a divisive question. [02:03]
scoopbot New post on by cazalla: [02:03]
mircea_popescu o.O [02:04]
asciilifeform ergo he did not play ball. [02:04]
asciilifeform at some point, somewhere. [02:04]
asciilifeform so his chain was reeled in. [02:04]
mircea_popescu i dunno, he was kinda dumb. [02:04]
mircea_popescu woudn't surprise me if legit pedo. [02:04]
asciilifeform [02:05]
assbot Logged on 09-07-2014 00:04:59; asciilifeform: pierce << ideal example of the animal described on one of mircea_popescu's essays - he could be packed into prison for life, any time, based on what's in his file. so he does as instructed. [02:05]
asciilifeform not even necessary that he not be 'legit paedo' [02:05]
mircea_popescu aite. [02:05]
asciilifeform but parsimonious hypothesis, imho, is that he was a chained, leashed paedo. [02:05]
mircea_popescu seems to me on the contrary, it's just "random redneck doing various shit online like scams and pedophilia got nicked" [02:06]
* asciilifeform laboured under an impression that 'actual paedo' is a rather uncommon thing, and hence their over-representation in sc4mz0rd0m is something in need of a logical explanation [02:07]
mircea_popescu guy had a scamrecord a mile long, and always dumb shit like [02:07]
assbot Devianttwo SCAMMER | ... ( ) [02:07]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform actual pedo irl yes. among the online scum that makes up a good chunk of the "bitcoin community" on places like forums etc, common enough. [02:08]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: earlier link concerned my working hypothesis as to why. [02:08]
asciilifeform (it being, they get 'annointed' by handlers specifically for being thus malleable) [02:08]
mircea_popescu mebbe. [02:08]
mircea_popescu doubt it tho, seeing how many they are and how ignominously they labour. [02:08]
asciilifeform there is the added difficulty of everyone and anyone in usg-dom being 'a paedo' retroactively on the mere request of a preet. [02:10]
asciilifeform вредители. [02:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: is it merely my puny brain, but i still don't grasp the 'signed-default is bad because preet can steal a key.' if preet gets a hold of my key, he may as well have put a bullet through my hide, stuffed the corpse, and proceeded to live on as it [02:17]
asciilifeform signed gossipd or not. [02:17]
mircea_popescu for my curiosity, people who run torrents : how many connections is common ? 10 ? 20 ? 40 ? 80 ? 160 ? [02:17]
asciilifeform depends on torrent for what. [02:18]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform not because "preet can steal a key" [02:18]
mircea_popescu i just meant, generally. i dun care for what, trying to see how this works in practice. [02:18]
artifexd The torrents that I have run get 15-20 connections [02:18]
asciilifeform just strikes me as a peculiar retreat from the whole 'let's bring an end to eternal september' thing [02:18]
mircea_popescu it's exactly that tho! [02:19]
mircea_popescu it actually puts an end to it. [02:19]
asciilifeform how? [02:19]
mircea_popescu suppose you're an average derp. what do you do ? [02:19]
asciilifeform as it is, you're relying on the next hop node's operator to sign your words. [02:19]
asciilifeform watch tv until die ? [02:19]
mircea_popescu problem solved, september ended. [02:19]
mircea_popescu i meant, what do you do to gossipd obvbiously. [02:20]
asciilifeform hm [02:20]
artifexd !s gossipd [02:20]
assbot 0 results for 'gossipd' : [02:20]
asciilifeform cajole a 'l33t3r' friend to give you an 'in', perhaps [02:20]
mircea_popescu artifexd i ended up referring to your project as that. [02:20]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform then you piss me off, i frown at your friend, you're out. [02:20]
asciilifeform what did 'derps' do in 1991 ? [02:20]
mircea_popescu you made it 3 days. [02:20]
mircea_popescu now what ? [02:20]
asciilifeform this is the ideal working of the scenario, yes [02:20]
mircea_popescu ok, i frown at your friend, he demures, i delink him, you both are out. [02:21]
mircea_popescu 2 derps, 3 days. [02:21]
asciilifeform in practice, derp can often masquerade as simply an underenthusiastic or overworked 'actual person' for a spell. [02:21]
mircea_popescu ok... [02:21]
mircea_popescu in practice derps never manage this, if we're to go by history, but anyway. [02:21]
asciilifeform just recalling various guests in #b-a, and how long it took each to work his (often her) way out of the alimentary canal [02:21]
mircea_popescu who, specifically ? [02:22]
* asciilifeform digs log [02:22]
asciilifeform saffron [02:22]
asciilifeform ? [02:22]
mircea_popescu as far as i recall, for as far as my own chatlog is concerned, it took them exactly an hour longer than it took me to decide it's enough. [02:22]
asciilifeform indian candy [02:22]
mircea_popescu now, why shouldn't this be the situation to everyone ? [02:22]
mircea_popescu i wouldn't mind seeing either of those. [02:22]
asciilifeform merely examples of people who took weeks, rather than days [02:22]
asciilifeform aha but walked off rather than killfiled [02:23]
mircea_popescu was thinking more like xmj and his ilk. [02:23]
asciilifeform aha right [02:23]
asciilifeform better example [02:23]
asciilifeform or, what if herr pankkake had made things more difficult by slowly doing... his thing, rather than swapping uniforms in one fell swoop [02:23]
mircea_popescu i dun see how any of these are serious avenues to attack gossipd. [02:24]
mircea_popescu literally, all it takes is a one line edit. [02:24]
* devthedev has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [02:25]
asciilifeform not so much 'attacks', but i for one was hoping to see this experiment as a beginning of the 'wot internet' [02:25]
mircea_popescu so it is. [02:25]
mircea_popescu imo, quite exactly. [02:25]
asciilifeform where eventually derps will not be able to send a packet, period. [02:25]
mircea_popescu but it's EXACTLY what it is! [02:25]
asciilifeform not if individual quanta aren't signed [02:26]
mircea_popescu they still need a friend to let them in. [02:26]
asciilifeform in mircea_popescu's current scheme, they still are signed, i'll point out. but ad-hoc, by the next hop node [02:26]
mircea_popescu you understand this ? nobody can police a list of 2bn ip addresses. [02:26]
mircea_popescu anyone can police the 200 people he himself knows. [02:26]
asciilifeform keys [02:26]
asciilifeform not people. or ip addresses [02:26]
mircea_popescu same thing. [02:26]
mircea_popescu blacklisting doesn't work, and whitelisting should be done locally, and responsibly. [02:27]
* asciilifeform does not disagree with this at all [02:27]
mircea_popescu but you disagree with the implementation of ewxactly this ? [02:27]
asciilifeform just not really grasping why we need the 'deniability' thing. [02:28]
artifexd nor I [02:28]
asciilifeform it seems to fly in the face of better-living-through-crypto [02:29]
mircea_popescu it's odd because to me it seems exactly opposite. [02:29]
mircea_popescu as in, why add clunk that actually harms and hinders, except to perpetuate what we generally agree is a harmful meme. [02:30]
asciilifeform how is message-is-standalong-quantum-that-traverses-the-net-on-its-authors-signatures-merits added clunk ? [02:30]
mircea_popescu excactly like that. [02:30]
asciilifeform *standalone [02:30]
artifexd Other than some extra bytes, how is it clunk? How does it harm or hinder? [02:31]
mircea_popescu ok, let me try and make the whole story. [02:31]
mircea_popescu currently : 1. friend to friend relations are entirely cryptographically secured. 2. unknown-to-unknown relations are not secured, and must proceed through a friend of either party to even happen. [02:32]
mircea_popescu what you propose : 1. friend to friend and unknown to unknown relations are the same thing. [02:32]
* asciilifeform is at a loss to see how this follows [02:32]
artifexd Uh... no. [02:32]
mircea_popescu this harms because : it gives unknowns a weight they should not have ; it removes the incentive for users to police at their local level ; it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs that they had no business in. [02:33]
mircea_popescu anmd there's plenty more, but srsly... how much is needed. [02:33]
asciilifeform incidentally, in no holy book is it written that a pubkey is readily pinnable on a particular creature walking this earth [02:34]
mircea_popescu so ? [02:34]
asciilifeform one can have 'anonymity' or 'deniability' or whatnot, as commonly imagined, at the same time as signed-everything [02:34]
mircea_popescu and when you say no what do you mean no. [02:34]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform not naturally. [02:34]
artifexd It doesn't give weight to unknowns. It gives continuity do unknowns should they desire it. [02:34]
mircea_popescu artifexd that is weight. [02:34]
mircea_popescu the existence of unknowns should be entirely at the mercy of the knowns. no exceptions and no way out. [02:34]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: by what mechanism do 'unknowns' transmogrify into 'knowns' in your cosmography ? [02:35]
mircea_popescu by whatever mechanism anyone chooses to use. [02:35]
mircea_popescu THEY have no power, [02:35]
mircea_popescu which is to say no obligatory mechanism exists. [02:35]
artifexd No. It is continuity. I assign weight to what they say by my judgement. They assign continuity to what they say by signing it. [02:35]
mircea_popescu artifexd it is not up to them. it is up to you. [02:36]
mircea_popescu the moment you add them to your list, they have continuity. [02:36]
mircea_popescu before that , they are ephemereal. [02:36]
mircea_popescu not their option. yours. [02:36]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: at present time, an 'unknown' can generate a pgp key and carry on 'continuity' with it over whatever channel. we can't exactly prevent it [02:36]
mircea_popescu because we don't work for the group here. we work for the individual. [02:36]
asciilifeform nor have any good reason to try [02:36]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is a problem [02:36]
artifexd it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs << while true, I don't see the issue with it [02:36]
mircea_popescu it is not an advantage. [02:36]
asciilifeform and here is where i'm puzzled [02:36]
asciilifeform how not advantage [02:36]
mircea_popescu artifexd i do. it's the equivalent of making a weirdo reality where anyone who eavesdrops also has a recording device. [02:37]
mircea_popescu none of their fuckinbg business. if they weren't invited to participate they can not RELY on the discussion. [02:37]
mircea_popescu not to the detriment o the participants, in any case. [02:37]
asciilifeform but, carrying on with the analogy, recording machines exist. [02:37]
asciilifeform this is like a late-medieval knight wishing that cannon had not existed. [02:37]
asciilifeform fact is, they do [02:38]
mircea_popescu no. making it not exist. [02:38]
mircea_popescu fact is, they only do if you wish to implement them. i do not. [02:38]
mircea_popescu i don't see much has improved since the recording machine era. do you ? [02:38]
asciilifeform if specifically aiming for anonymity, deniability, one ends up designing a widget akin to 'tor' [02:38]
asciilifeform is this the intended shape ? [02:38]
mircea_popescu this specifically aims for reconstructing sane chat, online. [02:39]
asciilifeform i won't argue that a working 'tor' would not have its uses, but it is a very different animal from an 'adult' rebirth of internet circa 1989 [02:39]
mircea_popescu rather than some conveniently diddled , horrible implementation designed for the needs of the nsa [02:39]
mircea_popescu (more generally, of the state) [02:39]
* asciilifeform sees the genuine dilemma here. but sees it as a dilemma, not an open-and-shut case in favour of soft-anonymity [02:40]
mircea_popescu do tell. [02:40]
mircea_popescu i dun see any sort of dilemma. [02:40]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu does not like the notion of nsa goon having a non-deniable tape of anything he catches. (i don't much, either...) asciilifeform does not like that it is generally customary to speak unsigned, and thereby nsa goon can put words into his mouth, and a certain number of people will believe them [02:41]
mircea_popescu what the clueless "believe" can not ever be your concern. [02:41]
mircea_popescu it is folly to even consider this point. focus on what is within your control. [02:41]
asciilifeform it is when they lead me to the electric chair [02:41]
mircea_popescu not even then. [02:41]
mircea_popescu a screening of "a man for all seasons" is in order here. [02:42]
asciilifeform until the magic dawn when the last idiot is strangled with the guts of the last scammer, there will be ones who believe the crap. [02:42]
mircea_popescu quite exceptional walk through the very points involved. [02:42]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform that is neither here nor there. [02:42]
mircea_popescu fundamentally your argument reduces to a deep seated "all peoples matter" [02:43]
asciilifeform how ? [02:43]
mircea_popescu to the tune of monty pytrhon's every sperm is sacred. no, they do not. [02:43]
asciilifeform this inference is perplexing. i don't see how it follows. [02:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform because whythe fuck do you care what some people you doin't know say on any topic ? [02:43]
asciilifeform how does a bomzh, stinking in the street, who happens to have generated a pgp key, 'matter' ? [02:43]
mircea_popescu well since you're concerned with what he might say or believe, it seems he does. [02:44]
asciilifeform i'm concerned only in the particular corner case that he is actually my friend, who has been reduced to that condition by malefactors, but still remains in possession of his key. [02:44]
mircea_popescu i do not care what "buts" and "ifs" you add. [02:45]
mircea_popescu what remains is... you are concerned. [02:45]
asciilifeform i'd say 'generic bum' and 'mircea stripped of his clothing and cast adrift in shanghai' are different scenario, no ? [02:45]
mircea_popescu so how is this germane ? [02:45]
mircea_popescu obviously, if we're connected, you know my key. [02:45]
mircea_popescu at issue is your proposal to make this a reality for people you don't know. [02:46]
asciilifeform nope. i fully understand that the latter is neither possible nor desirable [02:46]
mircea_popescu so then what is the dilemma ? [02:46]
asciilifeform 'who signs' [02:46]
mircea_popescu you know my key, you directly verify my client is signing correctly, what is keft ? [02:47]
mircea_popescu left* [02:47]
asciilifeform in the scheme as presently described, your client is also signing (for the record of the hypothetical nsa goon, among others) a fairly arbitrary set of messages. [02:47]
mircea_popescu it is not signing them, no. [02:47]
mircea_popescu it is merely passing them along. [02:48]
asciilifeform it signs the session whereby they are given right to travel the net [02:48]
mircea_popescu "this is what i heard" [02:48]
asciilifeform well, yes [02:48]
mircea_popescu that, it does. but it makes no representation they are from me. [02:48]
mircea_popescu in fact, it speciically says they are not. [02:48]
asciilifeform and what is the intended mechanism for propagating a message which -does- make this claim ? [02:48]
asciilifeform laborious external signature, as at present time ? [02:49]
mircea_popescu for instance. [02:49]
mircea_popescu or, if you prefer, elevating the source to the rank of a connect. [02:49]
mircea_popescu thereby doing it all automatically. [02:49]
asciilifeform please briefly describe 'rank of connect' [02:49]
mircea_popescu the same relation as between you and me, in the scenario. [02:49]
mircea_popescu you have his key in the initfile, and so on. [02:49]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the tidbit that escapes me is how you came upon the idea that default-signed would empower, rather than lower into pederasty, the 'anonymous derp' [02:51]
mircea_popescu well that's the clou of the entire thing now innit. [02:51]
asciilifeform aha [02:51]
asciilifeform if i can grasp this, perhaps it will all make sense to my head. [02:52]
mircea_popescu i think i explained it half a dozen different ways, to exhaustion, but am at a loss as to why what seems obvious is not communicating itself. [02:52]
mircea_popescu let's go the other way. why do you think it would so lower them ? [02:52]
asciilifeform did i misunderstand, or did you say earlier that it would be a good thing if the street bomzh could not use pgp ? [02:52]
asciilifeform (and gain continuity thereby) [02:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00061581 = 2.2785 BTC [-] [02:52]
mircea_popescu ok, let's work a different way. let us compare two scenarios. [02:52]
mircea_popescu in both cases, we are discussing user Panopticon, who sees all and says nothing. now, in spec as is, it is true that user P will know... nothing. correct ? whereas in your proposed spec, he would know... everything. correct ? [02:53]
mircea_popescu how is giving the bum EVERYTHING lowering him in any sense ? [02:53]
asciilifeform everything ? [02:53]
mircea_popescu and whence and wherefore should he have anything but nothing ? [02:53]
mircea_popescu well yes. all the signed chats of everyone = everything. absolutely as 1 = 1. [02:54]
asciilifeform if he truly knows 'everything', he can unmask the 'deniable' speakers likewise. [02:54]
artifexd I guess I like the default sign because I see myself as Panopticon. I don't talk much. But I watch and listen. Default-sign helps me. [02:54]
asciilifeform no need for signatures. [02:54]
mircea_popescu artifexd you might discover it hurts you, much like the low level usg employee who thinks the fed helps him would soon discover his lot would be better without that bit. [02:54]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform how ? [02:55]
asciilifeform if he truly knows 'everything' he can elementarily determine which earthly carcass crapped out which words. [02:55]
mircea_popescu not so. [02:55]
mircea_popescu for all he knows, they're all in cahoots, sending him lulz. [02:55]
mircea_popescu he can not determine this. [02:56]
asciilifeform presumably some earthly not-quite-everything was meant, rather than a 'divine' Everything [02:56]
mircea_popescu everything in the network duh. [02:56]
asciilifeform then mircea_popescu is correct [02:56]
asciilifeform hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative. [02:56]
mircea_popescu more importantly, hitler IS a lot more in that than he would be in this. [02:57]
asciilifeform but if we actually want to go in that direction, the logical result is a gadget like 'tor', with bounces, mixes, etc. [02:57]
asciilifeform rather than lukewarm step in that direction, no? [02:57]
mircea_popescu this is paid for, somewhere, by someone. who is paying but me ? even if i can't show where it leeches me, it does. why should i ? [02:57]
mircea_popescu there's nothing lukewarm about this. [02:57]
mircea_popescu it is, unlike the tor etc bs, actually efficient. [02:57]
asciilifeform just seems like an attempt to build a stove-refrigerator hybrid. yes, can be done, yes, in some sense these are complementary machines. but - challenge. [02:59]
mircea_popescu nothing of the kind. [02:59]
asciilifeform (combination of 'tor'-like apparatus with 'wot', in particular) [02:59]
mircea_popescu the tor bs is an attempt to "fix" in implementation problems to whose existence it not merely contributes, but moore! whose existence it actually postulates. [02:59]
mircea_popescu it is fundamentally broken and will never work exactly because it simply presumes the adversary wins. [02:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5070 @ 0.00062134 = 3.1502 BTC [+] [03:00]
asciilifeform speaking of the 'platonic' tor, rather than the cthonian horror of the actual proggy [03:00]
mircea_popescu wheras as proposed, gossipd makes the enemy outright impossible. [03:00]
mircea_popescu not even deliberately, just, as a side effect. [03:00]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform even the platonic. [03:00]
mircea_popescu structure it and i'll show you how it assumes it. [03:00]
asciilifeform well, 'platonic tor' is simply that a large number of people agree to 'play non-broken telephone' between me and a destination. [03:00]
asciilifeform thereby obscuring the existence of the conversation, within certain limits. [03:01]
mircea_popescu a destination you know nothing about. [03:01]
asciilifeform a destination you may or may not know something about out-of-band [03:01]
mircea_popescu so the fundamental statement is "the group is more important than the individual" [03:01]
mircea_popescu and you wish to know why it is broken by design ? [03:01]
mircea_popescu that's why. [03:01]
mircea_popescu once that's in there, of course fucking nsa. [03:01]
asciilifeform (e.g., i may know that it is a machine at ip p.q.r.s with rsa pubkey K) [03:01]
asciilifeform well yes. nsa comes inevitably in because you are trusting three strangers whom you know nothing about, to form the circuit. [03:02]
mircea_popescu derp. [03:02]
mircea_popescu now apply the same analysis to gossipd. [03:02]
asciilifeform gossipd proposes a scheme more akin to the traditional 'cell' organizations of revolutions, etc [03:03]
asciilifeform (i dare suggest that a node be referred to as 'cell', for extra lulz) [03:03]
mircea_popescu quite. [03:03]
mircea_popescu historically, the closer a relation, the more direct. [03:03]
asciilifeform aha [03:03]
mircea_popescu this is not some sort of random contrivance of boredom. [03:03]
asciilifeform it is the inevitable construction that stands. [03:04]
mircea_popescu this is specifically because, historically, the individual is more important than the group [03:04]
asciilifeform like bridge truss. [03:04]
asciilifeform (triangles) [03:04]
mircea_popescu which is how humanity managed to inch its way to this sad time when it's about to kill itself a thousand different ways [03:04]
mircea_popescu all born the same stupid place. [03:04]
asciilifeform which, in this context, place ? [03:05]
mircea_popescu "group is more important than individual" [03:06]
mircea_popescu a mental place. [03:06]
asciilifeform ah that. [03:06]
mircea_popescu myeah [03:06]
mircea_popescu i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. [03:06]
mircea_popescu heck, haven't felt so alive in weeks. [03:06]
asciilifeform srsly ? [03:06]
mircea_popescu yes. [03:07]
* asciilifeform pictured mircea_popescu breaking keyboards, etc [03:07]
artifexd "How many times do I have to explain this shit!" [03:07]
mircea_popescu so did the pets peeking in online. but no. [03:07]
artifexd This pretty much prevents one-way relationships, right? [03:08]
artifexd If you and I are online, unless we are both in each other's list, we will never direct-connect. [03:08]
mircea_popescu this part is finnicky. it shouldn't, ideally, but i don't see how it could be done. [03:08]
artifexd We have to both agree to trust each other. [03:09]
mircea_popescu right. [03:09]
mircea_popescu more importantly, connections on the internet don't work unilaterally. [03:09]
mircea_popescu so im guessing this is going to be forced by the medium. [03:09]
artifexd They do via UDP [03:09]
mircea_popescu if we were onm a purely broadcast network, it'd work right [03:10]
mircea_popescu myeah. [03:10]
mircea_popescu but udp is hard. [03:10]
artifexd No argument [03:11]
mircea_popescu im not entirely sure it is actually to any purpose important. [03:11]
asciilifeform udp is trivial! [03:12]
asciilifeform damnit. [03:12]
asciilifeform tcp is hard. [03:12]
mircea_popescu tcp is hard to employ usefully. [03:12]
artifexd upd is trivial for sending information if you don't care if they received it [03:12]
artifexd If you want a back and forth connection, you end up duplicating tcp yourself. [03:12]
asciilifeform artifexd: for sufficiently simple quanta, it is very easy to 'verify received' without duplicating all the cruft of tcp. [03:12]
mircea_popescu artifexd you will notice the spec is broadcast-oriented. [03:12]
mircea_popescu you don't really need to hear anything back from anyone. [03:13]
* asciilifeform believes the future to hold many one-way links [03:13]
asciilifeform shortwave radio, castaway bottles, obelisks. [03:13]
mircea_popescu artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key, [03:14]
mircea_popescu unilateral relations are really hard. [03:14]
mircea_popescu (i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X") [03:15]
* decimation (~decimatio@unaffiliated/decimation) has joined #bitcoin-assets [03:16]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to decimation [03:16]
decimation it occurs to me that one ought not design low level features into a communication system unless absolutely necessary [03:17]
* liberza has quit (Quit: leaving) [03:17]
mircea_popescu this about which bit ? [03:18]
asciilifeform decimation: that particular point of contention was about a kind of thing not readily retrofitted. [03:18]
asciilifeform it is a grave misconception that 'anything can be retrofitted.' [03:18]
asciilifeform if it were so, existing net protocols would suffice... [03:18]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform explain transsexuals then. [03:19]
asciilifeform decimation: [03:19]
assbot Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet. [03:19]
asciilifeform transsexuals ? [03:19]
mircea_popescu they get gender bits retrofitted. it's a joke. [03:19]
asciilifeform lol [03:19]
asciilifeform actually very pertitent [03:20]
asciilifeform good example of clumsy and very threadbare attempt at 'retrofit' [03:20]
mircea_popescu and impertinent at the same time! [03:20]
asciilifeform l0l [03:20]
mircea_popescu i might be especially thick, but i don't actually understand what decimation is saying. [03:20]
mircea_popescu which is the low level function ? [03:20]
decimation this was from a paper that was written by folks who designed early 80's network protocols [03:21]
decimation [03:22]
assbot ... ( ) [03:22]
* asciilifeform happens to be a crackpot specializing in the subject of 'abstractions being interchangeably paperable over is a mega-lie, foundations matter forever' [03:22]
asciilifeform you will -never- get single-packet friend-or-foe with tcp or tcp-like apparatus. [03:22]
asciilifeform (nor an immediate transposability to shortwave/message-in-bottle) [03:23]
decimation I don't see why one couldn't route ircd on top of ascii's udp-wot-internet [03:23]
decimation (the new ircd being proposed here) [03:24]
mircea_popescu ah ah that's what you mean. [03:24]
mircea_popescu yes, once that happens, they could. [03:24]
mircea_popescu not before tho. [03:24]
mircea_popescu decimation did you actually read the whole discussion ? [03:25]
* asciilifeform is about to sleep, and recommends to friends also about to sleep, to read 'petrified world.' [03:25]
asciilifeform good story before sleep. [03:25]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to adlai [03:25]
adlai what's this? [03:26]
asciilifeform [03:26]
assbot THE PETRIFIED WORLD (Robert Sheckley) - ... ( ) [03:26]
asciilifeform (quite pertinent to this evening's thread) [03:26]
mircea_popescu are you 12 ? [03:26]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i think i read this. [03:26]
asciilifeform aha srsly ? [03:26]
decimation I did. I find myself liking ascii's hardened bedrock [03:26]
asciilifeform hypothetical, sadly, bedrock [03:27]
mircea_popescu decimation how was the experience ? [03:27]
* asciilifeform does not have a battlefield-ready apparatus to offer [03:27]
decimation it was a good discussion, I also found it stimulating [03:27]
decimation but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere [03:28]
mircea_popescu cool. [03:28]
asciilifeform !s six words honest man [03:28]
assbot 0 results for 'six words honest man' : [03:28]
asciilifeform damn. [03:28]
asciilifeform 'If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.' (richilieu) [03:29]
adlai is this udp-over-wot concept "too long to fit in the margin", or have you sketched something about about it somewhere? [03:30]
mircea_popescu yes, well, this is more a function of louis than anything. [03:30]
asciilifeform adlai: described it at some length in #b-a at various points in the past month; also in a few comments on mircea_popescu's site. [03:30]
adlai !s udp wot from:ascii [03:31]
assbot 0 results for 'udp wot from:ascii' : [03:31]
decimation the interent, as exists, is like tor - in the sense that the group is trying to solve the individual's problem [03:31]
adlai !s udp from:ascii [03:31]
assbot 0 results for 'udp from:ascii' : [03:31]
asciilifeform adlai: must note that it is originally entirely unrelated to mircea_popescu and artifexd's project [03:31]
decimation the only real method of escape is layer 1 routing [03:31]
asciilifeform !s udp [03:31]
assbot 22 results for 'udp' : [03:31]
asciilifeform enjoy [03:31]
mircea_popescu !s udp from:asciilifeform [03:31]
adlai sure, this "ircd" thingy is just the latest in an uncoordinated herd of attempts to attack this same general problem [03:32]
assbot 12 results for 'udp from:asciilifeform' : [03:32]
asciilifeform adlai: the way i understand it, we have at least three people right here who came up with very similar - but different in important respects - attempted solutions. [03:32]
* adlai . o ( one could say that mpex simulates udp on top of tcp ) [03:33]
mircea_popescu one could say that, and be uncharitable. [03:33]
adlai not enough "quantum"? [03:34]
mircea_popescu lol [03:34]
asciilifeform mpex was not the inspiration for my version of the concept, but was the impetus for my coming to believe that it is buildable and worth confessing to people about [03:34]
adlai how so? [03:34]
asciilifeform proving the point that stateless, medium-agnostic 'connectionless' comms are the only solid way to go. [03:35]
adlai I guess it's an example of something which could work equally well over udp, and just happens to use tcp for convenience [03:35]
asciilifeform i imagine mpex as consisting of three gurlz, in a box, in shifts, and a console. [03:36]
mircea_popescu no, that;'s bitbet. [03:36]
asciilifeform console can be connected to tcp or to radio set on valves [03:36]
asciilifeform or pigeon cage. [03:36]
mircea_popescu the kittens eat pigeons, so... no 1149 [03:36]
asciilifeform mark twain's cat'n'rat system, lol [03:36]
adlai what about mpex needs tcp? [03:38]
adlai I guess serving up data [03:38]
* adlai is thinking too much like his code [03:38]
decimation asciilifeform: medium could also be morse code, slowed down by a factor of 100, in order to achieve redundancy and low bandwidth [03:40]
assbot QRSS - Very Slow CW ... ( ) [03:40]
asciilifeform decimation: i'd classify all 'one way radio' as a single category for purpose of the discussion re: algorithmic basics. [03:41]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform afaik no "two way" exists [03:42]
mircea_popescu not anymore than true love,anyway. [03:42]
decimation yes, except physics categorizes these things naturally, in terms of propagation [03:42]
asciilifeform 'one way' in the customary (numbers-station-to-spies) sense [03:42]
mircea_popescu aha. [03:42]
mircea_popescu just saying, kind of an engineering convention. no point in seeing too much metaphysics behind it [03:42]
asciilifeform 'two way' would refer to, e.g., a microwave horn link between two montain top fortresses [03:42]
asciilifeform that is, can pass back-n-forth in something resembling 'real time' [03:43]
decimation if a receiver is capable of swallowing large power without desensitization, one can listen while one transmits arbitrarily [03:43]
asciilifeform in one particular physical system ('passive rfid') one arguably has genuine 'back and forth' [03:44]
asciilifeform in the sense of the signal in one direction being a modified, phase-shifted version of the continuous signal in the other. [03:45]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the price for this, of course, is immutability :) [03:45]
decimation asciilifeform: like the 'soviet embassy bug': [03:46]
assbot The Thing (listening device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( ) [03:46]
asciilifeform decimation: the original 'rfid', yes [03:46]
asciilifeform !s theremin [03:46]
assbot 7 results for 'theremin' : [03:47]
decimation lol theremin was a zek when he 'invented' it [03:49]
* asciilifeform thought that this was well-known [03:52]
decimation ascii you could go visit it in person apparently [03:54]
decimation 'the thing' I mean [03:54]
asciilifeform it is kept in a museum, yes. [03:55]
asciilifeform or at least a good copy. [03:55]
asciilifeform there are some historical documents that suggest the original was destroyed by clumsy inspectors. [03:55]
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asciilifeform a somewhat younger, livelier usg had a multitude of copies produced, and used in utmost secrecy, almost immediately after the find. [03:58]
asciilifeform one must appreciate the kind of technological leap it was, in that period [03:58]
asciilifeform at that time, a typical 'bug' was not a small 'pill', easily concealed, transmitting (or recording) audio for weeks or months - the way one thinks of them now [03:59]
asciilifeform rather, it was a microphone, often at least as large as, say, a thimble, and a very long wire [03:59]
asciilifeform connecting it to either a tape recorder (no smaller, even in the most 'golden toilet' variant, than an auto pistol) - or to an actual set of headphones on a head. [04:00]
asciilifeform theremin's 'bug' was, from this point of view, sheerly 'martian' technology. [04:00]
decimation yeh it is a clever idea [04:01]
asciilifeform in my 'death notebook' there is a design for a purely-chemical 'bug'. [04:02]
asciilifeform perhaps when i am hanged, it will be manufactured somewhere. [04:02]
asciilifeform ('chemical' in the sense of having no appreciable electrical currents flowing, nor conductors, except in a residual, ionic sense, nor semiconductors, inside.) [04:03]
asciilifeform retrieve, develop (as in photograph), extract audio with simple analogue computer. [04:05]
asciilifeform point of fact, i think i may have said quite enough just now, such that one may construct it. [04:05]
asciilifeform good exercise 'for alert reader.' [04:05]
* aegis has quit (Quit: See ya!) [04:05]
decimation asciilifeform: a moving 'polarid' under a modulated light would do it [04:06]
decimation but that would have a current [04:06]
asciilifeform moving parts (except in the bare minimum of diaphragm) are a no-no. [04:06]
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ben_vulpes ah that's rich [04:07]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to Naphex [04:07]
asciilifeform but it is not especially hard to set up a chemical reaction that acts as a travelling 'record needle.' [04:07]
Naphex thanks o/ [04:07]
ben_vulpes no wavefronts are a thing [04:07]
ben_vulpes f'n bril, asciilifeform. [04:07]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes gets it [04:07]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform weren;t you going to bed ? [04:07]
asciilifeform was. probably will soon enough [04:08]
asciilifeform sent woman to bed already [04:08]
* napedia has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [04:08]
ben_vulpes matter of fact listening to you and mircea_popescu and artifexed go on has been educational and illuminating in any number of ways [04:08]
mircea_popescu haha you know the rickjles joke ? [04:08]
ben_vulpes much obliged [04:08]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes o you had fun ? [04:08]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: glad you took some interest in it. take the time later to write some comments? [04:08]
asciilifeform rickjles ? [04:08]
mircea_popescu "we were going to make it, so i told the wife, go ahead and get started, i'ma grab a paper" [04:09]
mircea_popescu perhaps too ny jewish joke. [04:09]
ben_vulpes "fun" << myeah something like fun [04:11]
ben_vulpes i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy << this one in particular [04:11]
ben_vulpes [] and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. << means that if you want everything you say on the record, operate a server for your identity. [04:23]
ben_vulpes how to preserve the serenissima log semantics though? if all "chat lines" are wholly deniable, the notion of a public forum in which to do business publically falls apart. [04:24]
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ben_vulpes !up asciilifeform [04:25]
ben_vulpes it only works for us, and sort of right now (?!?!?) because once upon a time assbot relied on the "authedness" of users via the "gribble" service. [04:25]
ben_vulpes ;;ident [04:25]
ben_vulpes [] that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain! << yeah but only half [04:28]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes how does it fall apart ? [04:29]
ben_vulpes how does it maintain any sort of relevance, if it can be polluted by... [04:30]
mircea_popescu by ? [04:30]
ben_vulpes ah i guess the log only makes sense as maintained by someone in a wot [04:30]
mircea_popescu take the eutherium short as a good working example. [04:30]
mircea_popescu this identity, which may be me unless i deny it, proposes he will sign a contract so and so. [04:30]
ben_vulpes by anyone who cares to transmit with a bogus "from" [04:30]
mircea_popescu you agree to the terms. [04:30]
mircea_popescu the contract is forthwith produced. [04:31]
mircea_popescu now it's unrepudiable. [04:31]
mircea_popescu no contract appears. well... now you cantell whoever you see me through that wtf is this bs. [04:31]
mircea_popescu seems perfect. [04:31]
ben_vulpes i was commenting at the point in the discusison at which messages were unsigned. did messages become signed? [04:31]
mircea_popescu it is also EXACTLY how it worked, [04:31]
mircea_popescu except once the few derps flaked, i had nobody to complain to. [04:31]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes no but recall the thing itself i refer to. a pastebin contract was in fact proferred. [04:32]
ben_vulpes sure [04:32]
mircea_popescu that. [04:32]
ben_vulpes forgive the dunce cap hanging over my eyes, but i'm entirely failing to see how this makes for an unrepudiable log of the forum. [04:33]
mircea_popescu it does not. [04:33]
mircea_popescu it only makes for an unrepudiable log of what matters. [04:33]
ben_vulpes "what matters" << to a keyset though, not "to everyone" [04:33]
mircea_popescu because "everyone" does not matter. [04:34]
mircea_popescu no more overhanging mega-group. [04:34]
mircea_popescu people. just and only. [04:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21100 @ 0.00061581 = 12.9936 BTC [-] [04:34]
ben_vulpes not a record of all strings sent to "#b-a", but a record of all strings sent to "#b-a" as seen by the lN of "assbot". [04:34]
mircea_popescu that exists, for each item in l(N). [04:34]
mircea_popescu and for them only. [04:35]
* mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone. [04:35]
ben_vulpes it's because we're all distracted by the hyperattractor 30d above the horizon and 15 deg port! [04:35]
mircea_popescu wait wut [04:35]
ben_vulpes << hyperattractor [04:36]
assbot Cat Chasing Laser Pointer - YouTube ... ( ) [04:36]
ben_vulpes bad joke; disregard [04:36]
ben_vulpes [] probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho. << strikes me that a series of "rating" messages should be parsed to build a rating history. [04:38]
ben_vulpes [] i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary << wotchains, perchance? [04:40]
BingoBoingo * mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone. << Had to watchh for a while, but it clicked all at once [04:41]
mircea_popescu wots are trivially doublespent. as part of normal functioning. [04:42]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo o it did ? makes sens enow as a whole ? [04:42]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Yeah. the skeleton in the RFC wasn't as revealing as the conversation was. gossipd putting the emphasis on Relay in IRC [04:44]
mircea_popescu maybe you should write a restatement ? curious how it'd read. [04:45]
BingoBoingo Needs more time to coalesce on brain. Might be on the order tomorrow. [04:47]
scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: [04:48]
mircea_popescu no rush really. [04:48]
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BingoBoingo The challenge is the edge cases in the discussion really make the thing click. [04:54]
mircea_popescu anyway, on contemplation i actually see this as my finest work to date. [04:56]
mircea_popescu in any field. [04:56]
mircea_popescu this is the only kind of youth one could possibly wish for themselves. [04:57]
BingoBoingo And it's the kind of youth one has to be older than 30 to experience. [04:59]
mircea_popescu i had the feeling when i was 16 :D [05:03]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15350 @ 0.00062031 = 9.5218 BTC [+] {2} [05:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14114 @ 0.00062638 = 8.8407 BTC [+] [05:07]
BingoBoingo !up Vexual [05:07]
* assbot gives voice to Vexual [05:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16874 @ 0.00062849 = 10.6051 BTC [+] {2} [05:09]
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Vexual y'all are fixing irc? better close that copper shoert. [05:12]
Vexual what does rfc mean? [05:15]
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Vexual oh [05:16]
mircea_popescu [05:17]
assbot NSFW - Ingaduiti-mi sa va impartasesc pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [05:17]
Vexual nice [05:18]
mircea_popescu that belt type, by the way, with themetal rounds ? [05:19]
mircea_popescu absolute best type for belting butts. [05:19]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18450 @ 0.00063015 = 11.6263 BTC [+] [05:35]
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fluffypony [05:47]
assbot ... ( ) [05:47]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14400 @ 0.00062239 = 8.9624 BTC [-] [05:52]
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* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [13:03]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [13:03]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [13:03]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass. [13:03]
* #bitcoin-assets :You're not a channel operator [13:03]
* #bitcoin-assets :You're not a channel operator [13:04]
chanserv OP #bitcoin-assets [13:04]
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to mircea_popescu [13:04]
thestringpuller good morning mr. chairman [13:04]
mircea_popescu "Not everyone who wants an immediate confirmation will be able to get it, regardless of how much they pay. If there's more people wanting next-block confirmation than there are slots in the block, it's mathematically guaranteed that people will miss out. As network usage grows, the percentage of unsatisfied users will grow linearly with it." [13:08]
mircea_popescu check out the idiocy lol. [13:08]
mircea_popescu "i want it" "are you paying for it ?" "no, but i still want it" "because ?" "because i say so, damn it" "this isn't fiat, billy" "fuck you stop opressing me" [13:08]
thestringpuller that's a good way to put it [13:08]
thestringpuller like a kid having a temper tantrum in a store because mommy won't buy him gummy bears [13:09]
mircea_popescu anyway, i kinda enjoy all this acting as if they have an option in the matter. [13:09]
* mircea_popescu really hopes he will actualyl get to rape this crowd. [13:09]
mircea_popescu damn it'll be so sweet. [13:09]
thestringpuller that's kublai/ghengis khan talk there [13:11]
thestringpuller so who declared the war? [13:12]
thestringpuller Gavin is provoking war, for what reason? [13:12]
mircea_popescu he's just doing what told. "for democracy". [13:14]
mircea_popescu whatever mini-nuland is in charge does not understand that there are forces more powerful on the field, who "do not understand how the world works" [13:14]
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thestringpuller but even so any fork at all needs to be killed immediately. it splits network power and lowers security. [13:15]
thestringpuller ideally killing the fork before it's even a thing. [13:15]
mircea_popescu i do not see this. [13:16]
mircea_popescu the expensive and painful slow roasting of idiots is a very valuable output. [13:16]
thestringpuller care to elaborate? [13:16]
mircea_popescu their cries of pain and outrage should be preserved for posterity, to teach others. [13:16]
thestringpuller heh. [13:17]
thestringpuller benevolent AND merciful [13:17]
mircea_popescu the fact that no lord ever wanted whoever he punished to ever die is directly apparent if you look at two things : their artists made hell be eternal torture ; the bodies lay in the gibbet at the gate for much longer than the dude inside survived. [13:17]
mircea_popescu so no, if it lasts forever and it's nothing but a hellish cried of the tortured all the better. [13:18]
mircea_popescu sadly this won't be possible here, like it's not possible generally, but in spirit. [13:19]
thestringpuller i'm visualizing a classroom full of students pointing and laughing at Gavin while he struggles to find emotions and reactions [13:20]
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* mircea_popescu gives voice to PeterL [13:30]
PeterL hi [13:30]
mircea_popescu how goes. [13:31]
mircea_popescu btw, you know scoopbot website is not werk ? [13:31]
PeterL yeah, I know, I need to fix it [13:31]
PeterL I think my server is blocked from trilema? [13:32]
mircea_popescu pm me ip. did it make a ton of requests ? [13:32]
mircea_popescu << kid is practically begging to be beaten, they won't oblige. [13:36]
assbot Logged on 07-01-2015 11:41:56; cazalla: damn, how does a woman become such a milf with this shit in her life? [13:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18350 @ 0.0006522 = 11.9679 BTC [+] {2} [13:38]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20250 @ 0.00064326 = 13.026 BTC [-] [13:44]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo cazalla here's a pretty good tip for qntra : [13:45]
mircea_popescu nejc/bitstamp crew allege that hacker somehow got into their system, stole privkeys for their addresses, AND THEN deleted their copies. magically. they were all online or something, who knows. [13:47]
mircea_popescu HOWEVER. one of those addresses is [13:47]
assbot BitBet Stats ... ( ) [13:47]
mircea_popescu in continuous use from dec 18th. [13:47]
thestringpuller whoa [13:47]
mircea_popescu now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ? [13:47]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to asciilifeform [13:48]
asciilifeform ty mircea_popescu [13:48]
mircea_popescu my pleasure. [13:48]
thestringpuller sorry to hear you got the flu asciilifeform [13:48]
thestringpuller the joys of slave labor in US eh? [13:48]
asciilifeform if i knew how to earn bread without leaving home, i would [13:51]
asciilifeform perhaps i ought to attend spam school. [13:51]
PeterL my father-in-law earns a living at home in his pajamas, programming [13:51]
mircea_popescu "Piketty, some would say, is king. I say Piketty has shown, like Gibbon, what is possible. " [13:52]
mircea_popescu is this the french commie ? [13:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00065392 = 14.517 BTC [+] {3} [14:01]
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mircea_popescu ahhh the fact reddit is so in favour of this hardfork business is so great :D [14:16]
mircea_popescu hot damn i hope they go through with it [14:16]
mod6 tie them to the radiator and grape them in the mouth [14:17]
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mircea_popescu lol [14:18]
fluffypony what hardfork business? [14:19]
mircea_popescu fluffypony but the logs! [14:19]
fluffypony it's holiday season :-P [14:19]
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mircea_popescu << check it out, hashname perseveres. [14:20]
assbot 0749dddfaecad1445f66 comments on Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - by Gavin Andresen ... ( ) [14:20]
mircea_popescu fluffypony links for you there, as it happens. [14:20]
fluffypony ah ok [14:20]
mod6 [14:21]
assbot Whitest Kids U Know - I am gonna grape you in the mouth - YouTube ... ( ) [14:21]
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mircea_popescu nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original <<< there's a million of these. [14:26]
mircea_popescu who the fuck is Taylor Swift [14:27]
mircea_popescu "american singer-songwriter and actress" [14:27]
thestringpuller !b 1 [14:27]
assbot Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [14:27]
mircea_popescu why am i so surprised. [14:27]
thestringpuller !b 4 [14:27]
assbot Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [14:27]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.000655 = 4.2248 BTC [+] [14:30]
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mircea_popescu "The IETF, obviously fearing irrelevance, hastily "discovered" that the HTTP/1.1 protocol needed an update, and tasked a working group with preparing it on an unrealistically short schedule. This ruled out any basis for the new HTTP/2.0 other than the SPDY protocol. With only the most hideous of SPDY's warts removed, and all other attempts at improvement rejected as "not in scope," "too late," or "no consensus," the IE [14:33]
mircea_popescu TF can now claim relevance and victory by conceding practically every principle ever held dear in return for the privilege of rubber-stamping Google's initiative." [14:33]
mircea_popescu heh. quite. [14:33]
mircea_popescu as if irrelevance can ever be averted by this sort of thing. [14:33]
mircea_popescu it's like making dogs blind to your fear by shaking uncontrollably. [14:34]
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mircea_popescu jurov: lots of derp tho << i kinda liked his piece tbh. [14:39]
mircea_popescu are they bad ? [14:40]
mircea_popescu ;;ud ncfaci [14:41]
jurov lol that's just keyfart [14:41]
asciilifeform if using the ssl crock of shit at all, being your own signing authority (instead of swallowing the master key bullshit and extortionary fees of the 'authorities') is the only way to go [14:42]
mircea_popescu oh [14:42]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform is what i thought too. [14:42]
asciilifeform elementarily true [14:43]
mircea_popescu after all "self-signed" cert can be edged into proper gpg signed matter, and it's all good. [14:43]
asciilifeform and if a 'luser' won't read or can't remember the genuine fingerprint, and won't write it down, whatever - he has no business owning computer [14:43]
mircea_popescu obviously "one has no way of knowing" if a self signed cert is good. but if there's also a .asc on the server... i'd say it's a damned sight better than "Verizon certifies" [14:43]
asciilifeform in case anyone needs to be reminded of this - ssl remains a crock of shit - as in, the entire protocol stack is porous and comically maldesigned [14:44]
mircea_popescu no contest. [14:44]
mircea_popescu jurov im curious to hear the self signed cert reasoning tbh. [14:45]
asciilifeform the traditional party line is 'oh noez you'll be mitm-ed if your browser doesn't refuse self-signed' [14:46]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00064884 = 1.4923 BTC [-] {2} [14:46]
mircea_popescu sure, but i has a high regard of jurov. [14:47]
asciilifeform jurov: what did you have in mind ? [14:47]
kakobrekla unfortunately things people call browsers dont like to swallow self signed. [14:47]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: this is because the browsers are usg projects. [14:48]
asciilifeform in certain cases, directly [14:48]
mircea_popescu check this out : [14:48]
assbot Breaking: 12 Killed In French ISLAMIC Terror Attack. The REAL Story… ... ( ) [14:48]
mircea_popescu IT CAN NOT BE TERRORISM!!! [14:48]
jurov i believe self-signed certs are usable only for private use [14:49]
jurov and even they they are PITA [14:49]
kakobrekla yes they are so cause browsers. [14:49]
jurov so they are not "almost zero cost" [14:49]
mircea_popescu jurov what's private use ? [14:49]
mircea_popescu allah hates comedy. who knew. [14:50]
jurov inside a company for example [14:50]
asciilifeform yes, usg succeeded in setting up the situation where every luserplebe's browser will ring bells, flash lights, if a cert didn't come with a hitler signature [14:50]
asciilifeform some of the newer browsers, iirc, won't even give him the option of swallowing [14:51]
jurov i don't contest that [14:51]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform they also managed this situation where all the shit online carries a "5000 derps that don't really exist LIKE THIS" [14:51]
mircea_popescu because yes, absolutely, moar democracy. [14:51]
asciilifeform demoocracy aha. [14:51]
mircea_popescu jurov so you mean, it only works for sessions where the user knows/trusts the source, as opposed to whatever, random drive-by publishing ? [14:51]
mircea_popescu would work for a bank, wouldn't work for a newspaper sort of thing ? [14:52]
jurov i'm looking forward how are they going to solve it in libressl, if ever [14:52]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to mike_c [14:53]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16700 @ 0.000656 = 10.9552 BTC [+] {2} [14:53]
jurov i don't see how every time i'm accessing anything via https/smtps i'm going to think whether this is the right cert [14:54]
jurov tools like surl don't save it like ssh [14:54]
jurov *curl [14:54]
mircea_popescu jurov my browser allows me to save cert for later ? [14:54]
mircea_popescu checks against it as if it were verizon'd, no difference [14:54]
mircea_popescu is this minority behaviour ? [14:54]
jurov i am not talking about browser, that's lost cause [14:54]
BingoBoingo now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ? << I don't see any new bets after the 4th. COuld just be a derp who wanted to "win" to his Bitstamp deposit address? [14:55]
mircea_popescu curl similarily imports certs ? [14:55]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo wasn't the actual breach prior to the 4th ? [14:55]
mircea_popescu as opposed to announcement thereof ? [14:55]
jurov it annoys me to no end when i install self-signed cert and even if i try to distribute it between machines, some dam curl-like tool breaks [14:55]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs. [14:56]
jurov also, email clients. it was *not* possible to make all them work with self-signed cert [14:56]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i guess that works out then, prolly a customer. [14:56]
mircea_popescu a well. [14:56]
jurov it's just all lost cause. self-signed certs yes, but only after ssl/tls is ditched. [14:57]
mircea_popescu jurov well ok, by and large for any expectation it won't be possible to make "all" work. because anyone can anything, and well... [14:57]
mircea_popescu but i see whatcha mean. "not politically favoured, so not as well ironed out, so harder to use" [14:57]
jurov it's much easier with ssh for example [14:57]
mircea_popescu well yes, partly because ssh has no verizon. [14:58]
mircea_popescu you gotta put your key in [14:58]
mircea_popescu whodda thought, you know, that NOT invoving an us company is better. [14:58]
BingoBoingo [15:04]
assbot Gunmen Kill 12, Wound 7 At French Magazine HQ - Slashdot ... ( ) [15:04]
BingoBoingo thestringpuller: The atlantic doesn't know you exist [15:05]
assbot Why Are So Few Black People Using Bitcoin? - The Atlantic ... ( ) [15:05]
mircea_popescu lol [15:05]
BingoBoingo [15:07]
assbot The Atlantic: Why Are So Few Black People Using Bitcoin? [15:07]
BingoBoingo pete suggested: "Maybe they are better at keeping it on the down low". [15:07]
mircea_popescu what atlantic really means is "why are there so few black scammers in bitcoin, because that's all we know about anyway". and the reason couldn't possibly be "because they're just more honest than whitey" [15:08]
thestringpuller hah! [15:09]
thestringpuller hahah! [15:09]
mircea_popescu tis true. [15:10]
thestringpuller except for Lamar [15:10]
thestringpuller of Pheeva [15:10]
thestringpuller pretty sure he's taking bitpay cock up da butt knowing the implications [15:10]
mircea_popescu you keep going. you'll run out before i'm done enumerating pasty ass. [15:10]
thestringpuller hahaha! i thought only black people used "pasty white person" phrasing [15:10]
mircea_popescu im also black [15:11]
thestringpuller gotta love pasty white girls who are afraid of the sun like vampires tho ;) [15:11]
mircea_popescu in my spare time. [15:11]
thestringpuller o i kno [15:11]
thestringpuller MP is og [15:11]
mircea_popescu anyway, i have no problem with dudes going "oh, blacks do all teh crime!!!" if that's what they believe, and start running off stats about it. big whoop. but it's funny how nobody happens to fucking noticing the OTHER stats. [15:12]
thestringpuller mir-dizzle to the popes-rizzle [15:12]
mircea_popescu "black on black violence in the ghetto is so and so!!1". fine. and white on white scamming in bitcoin is how ? [15:12]
BingoBoingo !b 1 [15:12]
assbot Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [15:12]
asciilifeform i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc. [15:13]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform yeah. the shit run by jews in 1935. [15:13]
asciilifeform the very same [15:13]
mircea_popescu and by italians in 1955. [15:13]
mircea_popescu probably on the same damned exact stones. [15:13]
asciilifeform quite likely. [15:13]
BingoBoingo i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc. << Replaced by same game with different operator "Lottery" [15:13]
mircea_popescu i went to school in this huge, what you'd call super-preppy thing. [15:13]
mircea_popescu and i have this distinct memory of a kid being pissed of at some chick, and going to carve "X is a whore" in the wall [15:14]
BingoBoingo Exurb [15:14]
mircea_popescu except... there was that ALREADY carved there. easily 50 years old. [15:14]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: the interesting thing is that usg has not succeeded in entirely displacing the native, ethnic 'lotteries' [15:14]
mircea_popescu same name, same exact string. [15:14]
mircea_popescu ;;later tell pete_dushenski "Their habitual attacks on forums is usually" << are. [15:16]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1273 @ 0.00079999 = 1.0184 BTC [-] {4} [15:17]
mircea_popescu "But what of it? How does this effect you? Well, it effects" affects you. afect is another name for sentiment. to affect is to cause an effect upon something. to effect, confusingly enough, is to cause the execution of something. so, you effect legislation, and that legislation affects people. [15:19]
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* mircea_popescu gives voice to saifedean [15:22]
saifedean hai there, mp, thanks for the voice [15:25]
mircea_popescu np [15:25]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00065626 = 9.7126 BTC [+] [15:26]
TomServo [15:28]
assbot Our temporary website didn’t feel quite like home - so we gave it a little refresh while we work on restoring full services. [15:28]
kakobrekla win [15:29]
mircea_popescu "Keep up the good work!" [15:29]
kakobrekla temp site looking good! [15:29]
TomServo very nice shade of green! [15:29]
kakobrekla all green, nicely done. Safe choice of colors. [15:29]
mircea_popescu when are they bringing the fractional reserve back up ? [15:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22202 @ 0.00065626 = 14.5703 BTC [+] [15:33]
asciilifeform 'got fish? nope, this is the meat counter. fish is what they don't have at the fish counter.' [15:34]
mircea_popescu lol [15:35]
mircea_popescu in other news, [15:35]
assbot ... ( ) [15:35]
mod6 kakobrekla: lol! [15:57]
kakobrekla as safe as their hot wallet [15:58]
* asciilifeform reread last night's thread, and grasped mircea_popescu deniable-transmissions scheme. [15:58]
mircea_popescu better on 2nd pass huh ? [15:58]
asciilifeform aha [15:58]
asciilifeform also better when awake [15:58]
mircea_popescu cool! [15:58]
mircea_popescu lol [15:58]
mircea_popescu saifedean answered. [15:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00063408 = 30.1822 BTC [-] {6} [15:59]
mircea_popescu by the way, requiem for a dream. good film. [16:00]
* asciilifeform saw, some years ago, liked [16:01]
kakobrekla btw bitstamp is moving operations to us (prolly sf). [16:09]
kakobrekla you heard it here phirst. [16:09]
asciilifeform l0l! [16:09]
mike_c interesting. they must be retaining UK incorporation, no? I would think it would be legal shitstorm otherwise. [16:10]
kakobrekla i dont think so but dont have the details. [16:11]
mike_c they should come to NYC. very bitcoin friendly. just drop all your coins off at lawsky's office on the way into town. [16:11]
BingoBoingo Mebbe they think legal shitstorm is to their benefit for filing bankruptcy? [16:11]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla so they can "cover" by being bought. [16:13]
mircea_popescu something tells me they have nfi how to write a term sheet, and there's about 50-50 odds of the financer backing out. [16:14]
mircea_popescu tl;dr : this won't end well. [16:14]
mircea_popescu watch how in a few short months it won't be possible to buy bitcoin at any price. [16:15]
mircea_popescu i guess ima have to bring an exchange online willy-nilly. [16:15]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00065305 = 14.1712 BTC [+] [16:34]
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BingoBoingo "Attacks cell walls" You know just what penicillin and the rest of the beta-lactams do: [16:36]
assbot Antibiotic Breakthrough Ends 25-Year Discovery Drought - Bloomberg [16:36]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7345 @ 0.00024059 = 1.7671 BTC [-] {3} [16:37]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 22000 @ 0.00023561 = 5.1834 BTC [-] {3} [16:39]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30200 @ 0.00063652 = 19.2229 BTC [-] {2} [16:43]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15750 @ 0.00062815 = 9.8934 BTC [-] [16:50]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 15093 @ 0.0002001 = 3.0201 BTC [-] [16:52]
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asciilifeform wai wat, mircea_popescu with an exchange ?! [17:12]
* asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens [17:12]
BingoBoingo * asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens << The Fairchild "WartHog"??? [17:14]
artifexd mircea_popescu: Regarding gossipd, do you have any preference for the data flowing over the wire as binary or text? [17:15]
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artifexd Binary would mean shorter messages because fingerprint a would only take up 20 bytes (instead of 40) and keys would not have to be armored. Text would make the flow easier to read/debug but the data would necessarily take up more space. [17:17]
jurov artifecd did you research some existing ideas? [17:24]
jurov i liked but did not try it in practice [17:24]
assbot twisted.protocols.amp : API documentation ... ( ) [17:24]
BingoBoingo [17:24]
assbot ... ( ) [17:24]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00062034 = 2.7295 BTC [-] [17:33]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24353 @ 0.00065628 = 15.9824 BTC [+] {2} [17:46]
cazalla mircea_popescu: HOWEVER. one of those addresses is <<< isn't this just a case of someone using their bitstamp deposit address for bitbet payouts, even kakobrekla mentioned this [17:52]
assbot BitBet Stats ... ( ) [17:52]
assbot Logged on 05-01-2015 15:10:48; kakobrekla: im now getting "my output address is bitstamp hot wallet" emails from bitbet users. [17:52]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23300 @ 0.00065933 = 15.3624 BTC [+] {2} [17:53]
thestringpuller mircea_popescu: a voice of reason [17:54]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40570 @ 0.0006355 = 25.7822 BTC [-] {4} [18:00]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45530 @ 0.00061195 = 27.8621 BTC [-] {3} [18:01]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22500 @ 0.00061774 = 13.8992 BTC [+] [18:17]
cazalla BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs. <<< and there is still the issue of what amount of coins will not honoured by bitstamp after the annoucement [18:20]
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asciilifeform artifexd: text?! wtf [18:38]
asciilifeform jurov: and what is that gnarly pythonism. [18:41]
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* asciilifeform wonders if he woke up in some alternate universe #b-a full of www-dev folks [18:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33300 @ 0.00065025 = 21.6533 BTC [+] {3} [18:44]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00066312 = 7.5596 BTC [+] {4} [18:46]
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mircea_popescu artifexd it's always encrypted, so what do you mean text ? [18:50]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: << turns out we have these here. [18:53]
assbot Lawmaker’s Facebook rant threatens media for “unauthorized” use of his name | Ars Technica ... ( ) [18:53]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.000664 = 3.32 BTC [+] [18:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9276 @ 0.000664 = 6.1593 BTC [+] [18:56]
Apocalyptic "mircea_popescu:i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion." // so did I, thanks for the priceless logs [19:07]
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mircea_popescu cazalla seems so, yes. [19:09]
mircea_popescu thestringpuller not bad. invite them over. [19:09]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic cool! [19:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8224 @ 0.00065749 = 5.4072 BTC [-] [19:10]
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mircea_popescu perhaps of broad interest seeing the fork war context. [19:21]
assbot Oil theory pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:21]
mircea_popescu last para at any rate. [19:21]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29650 @ 0.00066537 = 19.7282 BTC [+] {3} [19:27]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'Let them have scrip, will be good enough for them...' << usd is not already scrip ? [19:27]
mircea_popescu quite. [19:27]
asciilifeform admittedly, a peculiar kind of scrip, for which one can get certain things overseas (for the time being) [19:27]
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asciilifeform at some point, usd will no longer be a 'convertible' unit. completing its transition to equivalent of the soviet ruble. [19:29]
asciilifeform really the definition, if there is one, of 'scrip.' [19:29]
asciilifeform just like you can't spend subway tokens outside of the subway. [19:29]
mike_c ^ it is also illegal to sell them.. such bullshit. [19:31]
undata "and then the ashes of their apps were all that remained" [19:31]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'The notion that gold supply does not increase a lot is predicated on obsolete technology. Gold supply would increase quite a lot, and in really harmful ways involving cyanide, if it seriously became monetized.' << iirc, cyanidation was SOP since 1890s. [19:35]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: now, harmful methods involving - neutrons? yes. [19:35]
mircea_popescu sure. [19:35]
mircea_popescu just, lemme fish this out [19:36]
mircea_popescu [19:36]
assbot Hai sa facem si noi de-astea pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:36]
mircea_popescu that's one of those large excavators [19:36]
mircea_popescu THAT was not sop in 1890s [19:36]
asciilifeform aha. [19:37]
asciilifeform butugychag rennaissance is inevitable anyway [19:37]
asciilifeform quite a few increasingly scarce strategic minerals, all across mendeleev table. [19:38]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13168 @ 0.00066552 = 8.7636 BTC [+] {2} [19:39]
undata asciilifeform: seems like an economic meltdown would also decrease the demand for those for new iPhones [19:40]
asciilifeform for pNohes - down. for bolometers used in heat-seeking rocket - up. [19:41]
asciilifeform it's an elementary 'who at this table starves last' situation [19:42]
BingoBoingo I'm pretty sure pNohe sellers could find a way to make resistive touchscreens fashionable again. [19:45]
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asciilifeform BingoBoingo: In is not the only scarce mineral. [19:46]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Sure. [19:47]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'Currency generally is in the hands of a selected few, this situation where every man woman and child holds some is an exception, and I suspect coming to an end.' << i recall being shown, as a boy, an 1890s ru coin that 'would feed a family for a month!111!!' [19:49]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this kind of thing worked in 'tribal' structure, where most folks are reasonably 'close to the soil' and grow/kill the necessities of life personally. i suppose it also works in a concentration camp - though, iirc, these also typically have a kind of scrip and so aren't entirely free of currency. [19:50]
mircea_popescu it will work fine in the world of the future [19:51]
mircea_popescu independence is predicated on something other than being a redditor. [19:51]
asciilifeform i'd guess more of a #2 than 1 [19:51]
asciilifeform does 'reddit' really differ in any fundamental way, as a basic urban treadmill, from 1700s english gin, or roman circuses ? [19:52]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4226 @ 0.00065749 = 2.7786 BTC [-] [19:54]
BingoBoingo Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin. [19:55]
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ben_vulpes [] o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this. << lord am i [19:55]
ben_vulpes 100% serious [19:55]
BingoBoingo [19:56]
assbot The White House on Charlie Hebdo, Then and Now - Hit & Run : ... ( ) [19:56]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: [19:57]
assbot Logged on 27-07-2014 19:19:35; mircea_popescu: chetty: II 5. France took Algeria, hoping for a country to eat cassoulet and instead France is now eating couscous. << this is what happens when small penis messes with big penis. [19:57]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Naturally. I still wait for California's Seirra Nevada range to be inverted in the quest for rare minerals and to create H2O reservoir capacity to sustain the prisons and work farms. [19:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00062969 = 2.8966 BTC [-] [20:01]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i'm expecting to end up in an inca-style, rather than soviet-style, camp [20:02]
ben_vulpes !up mats [20:04]
ben_vulpes wb mats [20:04]
asciilifeform that is, there is a fence to keep folks from leaving; they are left to fend for selves for food and water within the confines; and if the weekly quota of $metal is not brought to the gates in timely manner, there are public educaxecutions [20:04]
asciilifeform perhaps we should refer to this as 'belgian' method [20:04]
BingoBoingo Belgian method sounds about right. [20:04]
BingoBoingo Leopold, that man had ideas. [20:04]
asciilifeform what ideas. spain was there long first. [20:05]
ben_vulpes someone up mats plz [20:05]
BingoBoingo Leopold tried on a harsher continent. [20:05]
asciilifeform and the basic notion of working folks to death in a mine - is ancient. [20:05]
BingoBoingo !up mats [20:05]
* assbot gives voice to mats [20:05]
ben_vulpes wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now? [20:05]
asciilifeform who? [20:05]
BingoBoingo Leopold's flavor also came with an exit strategy. [20:05]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: I've just stayed connected. [20:06]
ben_vulpes me too. [20:06]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: everything comes with 'exit strategy' [20:06]
asciilifeform just not necessarily the one you might like [20:06]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have been voicing folks by hand. [20:08]
ben_vulpes yeah but how come BingoBoingo gets to !up and not me [20:09]
* ben_vulpes stomps foot petulantly [20:09]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes cause he kept an uninterrupted connection and assbot still sees him [20:09]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Maybe your connection just needs to be less wonh [20:09]
ben_vulpes when did assbot come back? [20:09]
ben_vulpes ;;ident [20:09]
ben_vulpes you know what? [20:10]
asciilifeform assbot, afaik, never died [20:10]
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ben_vulpes i don't actually care. [20:10]
mircea_popescu Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin. <<< there;'s tons of "gin as virtue" songs and oral liuterature. [20:10]
asciilifeform it's simply rudderless w/out gribble [20:10]
ben_vulpes derp, i meant gribble. [20:10]
mircea_popescu it was not preserved in writing because the mps of the time did not see itworthy of their wot. [20:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15300 @ 0.00066554 = 10.1828 BTC [+] [20:10]
asciilifeform 'work is the curse of the drinking class' ! [20:10]
mircea_popescu wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now? << no. [20:11]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc, a good bit of that stuff -was- preserved in writing - of a kind. e.g., 'broadside ballads' [20:11]
mircea_popescu sure. [20:12]
ben_vulpes [] hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative. << your sought "morale hit" [20:15]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i did, later, grasp mircea_popescu's deniable-transmission algo [20:16]
kakobrekla ben_vulpes you can speak cause you have ops not cause authed with gribble and assbot. [20:16]
kakobrekla and you cant !up, but you can +voice [20:17]
ben_vulpes confession time, i know nothing about the arcana of irc modes [20:17]
mircea_popescu join the club. [20:17]
ben_vulpes gossipd when [20:17]
mircea_popescu as soon as artifexd gets exactly drunk enough ? [20:18]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: trick is that two directly-connected cells may as well be exchanging signed msgs. but relayed msgs (in, e.g., cells a -> b -> c, from a to c) are 'gossip' - that is, 'deniable.' [20:18]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform precisely [20:18]
ben_vulpes clever, neh? [20:19]
ben_vulpes i imagine we'll all be running our own cells initially. [20:19]
mircea_popescu permanently ? [20:20]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: how do you propose to use the hypothetical gizmo without running a cell ? [20:20]
mircea_popescu i suppose once webchat is enabled you could use that. [20:20]
ben_vulpes how does someone relay a message to a cell and from a cell to another cell? [20:20]
mircea_popescu dude just read it first lol; [20:20]
mircea_popescu ask after. [20:20]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: manually configured peers [20:20]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: do read mircea_popescu's article, it is very concise. [20:21]
ben_vulpes forgive the extremely poorly articulated comment. [20:22]
ben_vulpes i imagine a steady-state future where people operate gossipd cells in much the same way that ircd's are operated on fleanode. [20:23]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: rather more like bitcoin - in that you introduce messages into the net by loading them into your own cell [20:23]
asciilifeform which then propagates to your peers [20:23]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: [20:24]
asciilifeform (i forget if this was mircea_popescu's terminology in the original article, or not) [20:24]
assbot Broadcast Transaction - ... ( ) [20:24]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: aha but you cannot really have this, unless you - in particular - or one of your peers - wants to create a public toilet for spam and give it peerage [20:25]
ben_vulpes it *will* happen. [20:25]
ben_vulpes the structure of the thing implies many wots. [20:25]
asciilifeform if one carries on with such, may find himself on a rather smaller and lonelier gossipnet [20:25]
asciilifeform than before. [20:25]
ben_vulpes doubtful, see the ever prolix reddit. [20:26]
asciilifeform incidentally i don't recall if any of you lot suggested this, but: max-graph-degrees knob. [20:26]
asciilifeform for when you want a 'louder', 'more new blood' sort of experience - crank clockwise. [20:27]
asciilifeform for the radio aficionados among us, let's call it 'squelch' [20:27]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes there's no value in imposing values for poeople. [20:27]
mircea_popescu just as long as i can isolate the redditd from my machine, the people who want to be in there are more then welcome to their own choices. [20:28]
mircea_popescu freedom is this, not something else. [20:28]
ben_vulpes i'm not suggesting any values be forced on anyone. [20:29]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i thought it's implicit in the spec, in the "receiver decides if to relay" : you can configure a client to pass, to user or other clients, whatever you wish [20:29]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in a way, it is. but sort of left as an exercise. [20:29]
mircea_popescu yea. well honestly most everything is so left. [20:29]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes granted. i just mean... so they do,more power to em. [20:29]
* ben_vulpes intends to run an open relay node - openly disclosed as such for those in the mood to twiddle knobs [20:30]
ben_vulpes cell, excuse me. [20:31]
mircea_popescu sure [20:32]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: "hashname" << have ye unleashed the valkyrie on reddit? [20:34]
mircea_popescu i dunno who it is [20:34]
mircea_popescu but some youthful enthusiast,i got a few offline pms. [20:35]
* assbot removes voice from mats [20:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.00066554 = 4.2927 BTC [+] [20:39]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00066593 = 8.2575 BTC [+] {2} [20:46]
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thestringpuller !up tsp_2 [21:03]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4331 @ 0.00064543 = 2.7954 BTC [-] [21:15]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1393 @ 0.00081683 = 1.1378 BTC [-] {5} [21:25]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12200 @ 0.00064543 = 7.8742 BTC [-] [21:55]
mircea_popescu sooo... apparently "text" mysql blobs are limited to 65535 characters ? [21:57]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: << perhaps should be a separate article ? [22:08]
assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [22:08]
mircea_popescu it is incredible just how broken wordpress is. [22:09]
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BingoBoingo [22:17]
assbot Muslim Gangs Terrorize 55 Neighborhoods, Police Powerless | The Daily Caller ... ( ) [22:17]
asciilifeform ^ mega-lol! [22:18]
asciilifeform when does the actual gov of se (northern caliphate) send replacement embassy to washington. [22:18]
BingoBoingo Question is will they ever care to. [22:25]
asciilifeform !s yi yi zhi yi [22:25]
assbot 13 results for 'yi yi zhi yi' : [22:25]
asciilifeform ^ alternate hypothesis [22:25]
BingoBoingo In that case embassy lives in the shadows [22:26]
asciilifeform very simple formula: the 'barbarians' are in fact employees of the swedish (french, british, american - each case) government, aka usg, in good standing. [22:27]
asciilifeform their purpose is to terrorize the native population, for a variety of useful purposes (bolster seekoority state; keep real estate prices in less-afflicted zones high; etc) [22:28]
asciilifeform in many cases these folks are literally 'employed' to create chaos - as in, they get a pension, in return for... doing just that [22:29]
asciilifeform but this is a subject covered in painstaking detail in many other places. [22:30]
mircea_popescu i suppose this is not the best time to bring up the barbecuran. [22:31]
asciilifeform l0l [22:31]
mircea_popescu isn't it sort-of strange how this works ? [22:31]
asciilifeform only if mircea_popescu wants to test the turrets. [22:31]
mircea_popescu sure. [22:31]
asciilifeform they do need occasional testing. [22:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16300 @ 0.00064046 = 10.4395 BTC [-] {2} [22:32]
mircea_popescu more's the point : ever wonder how these dudes pick ? [22:32]
asciilifeform << 'they faked' [22:32]
assbot Varnish Error 503 Service Unavailable ... ( ) [22:32]
asciilifeform that was fast. [22:32]
mircea_popescu i can see it [22:33]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9805 @ 0.00065157 = 6.3886 BTC [+] [22:35]
mircea_popescu anyway, which kind of evil sand niggers were these ? the irani like or the saudi like ? [22:38]
asciilifeform not, afaik, specified [22:38]
mircea_popescu only an important point when discussing which side to give arms to ? [22:39]
asciilifeform sunni is well-funded iirc. [22:39]
mircea_popescu they'reall well funded. [22:39]
mircea_popescu heck, they're better funded than wasps. [22:40]
asciilifeform shia could use a better operating system. [22:40]
cazalla damn, the shooters in France don't fucking hesitate, down under it took almost 24 hours for the shooter to fire off a round [22:40]
assbot Charlie Hebdo magazine police officer shot in head - CLOSE UP! - YouTube ... ( ) [22:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00065157 = 5.7338 BTC [+] [22:44]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: incidentally, this is just after president hollande suggests pulling out of ru sanctions thing [22:46]
mircea_popescu lol [22:47]
mircea_popescu so it is sunni then [22:47]
asciilifeform then or generic theatre. [22:48]
mircea_popescu kinda pleasant to watch europe from distance. [22:48]
mircea_popescu ovbiously, the result of this is not concentration camps for all muslims indiscriminately, because... well... [22:49]
mircea_popescu "can't generalize". [22:49]
decimation right, becuase all muslims are peaceful [22:55]
mircea_popescu Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Sunni Islam's leading centre of learning, called the attack "criminal" and said "Islam denounces any violence". [22:56]
mircea_popescu so it WAS sunni. [22:56]
decimation so it seems to me that this 'cell' topology is vulnerable in the sense that it is obvious who is relaying packets [22:56]
decimation third parties (required for routing packets) would know whose necks to squeeze [22:57]
asciilifeform decimation: you can't decrypt a single packet until a cell peers you [22:58]
* pete_dushenski (~pete_dush@unaffiliated/pete-dushenski/x-8158685) has joined #bitcoin-assets [22:58]
mircea_popescu decimation the graph is very flat, with 100s of connections. you will have to squeeze a large fraction to disrupt anything. [22:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.00064096 = 2.3395 BTC [-] [22:58]
decimation asciilifeform: right, but the intervening routers know the ip addresses of the cells [22:58]
asciilifeform decimation: or did you simply mean the proverbial future of the gasenwagen, where the mere act of transmitting cryptostrange is a gassing offense [22:58]
mircea_popescu only of the closest [22:58]
decimation it's true that if the network can be scaled this is less of a concern [22:59]
asciilifeform decimation: of some cells. no info on who they belong to (what keys), who the peers are, etc [22:59]
decimation it would be beneficial if nodes could connect via multiple 'ports' (vpns, etc) [23:00]
asciilifeform decimation: if you use udp, like i proposed, you can even have the mindfuck of a 'bar-bell shaped' cell - a 'multihomed' machine receives on one ip and transmits on another [23:00]
asciilifeform the receiver is, to anyone lacking a peerage key, just a black hole. [23:01]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform this works on tcp too [23:01]
decimation asciilifeform: indeed. perhaps even hundreds of connections [23:01]
mircea_popescu decimation what difference does the port make. [23:01]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nope. does not work on tcp. [23:01]
asciilifeform because tcp establishes a connection [23:01]
mircea_popescu receiving on one ip and sending on another ? sure, why niot. [23:01]
asciilifeform that - yes [23:01]
asciilifeform but the receiver being indistinguishable from an empty wall plug - no. [23:01]
decimation mircea_popescu: receiving on one ip and rxing' on another is what I'm calling a 'port' [23:01]
mircea_popescu try the experiment, send handskakes to random hosts on port 1337 [23:02]
mircea_popescu plenty answer. [23:02]
mircea_popescu what of it. [23:02]
asciilifeform call it a goldbox. [23:02]
mircea_popescu decimation ah i thought you meant specifically :x [23:02]
asciilifeform that's what the 'phreak' version (bridge of two telephone lines) was. [23:02]
decimation well, there's also the thought of puttint it all on tcp port 80 and putting fake http headers [23:02]
mircea_popescu Le troisième homme recherché, âgé de 18 ans, s'est rendu dans la nuit au commissariat de Charleville-Mézières, dans les Ardennes. [23:03]
mircea_popescu one surrendered. [23:03]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20266 @ 0.00065389 = 13.2517 BTC [+] {2} [23:03]
mircea_popescu decimation really, this entire anonimity thing is moot. what exactly is going to happen ? [23:03]
mircea_popescu people still run torrents to this day. [23:03]
asciilifeform that part is just a bonus. [23:04]
decimation might as well wear a mustache while wearing fake glasses [23:04]
mircea_popescu "Selon le procureur, deux policiers ont également étés tués par les assaillants. L'un, le brigadier Franck Brinsolaro, du Service de la protection (SDLP, ex-SPHP) était chargé de la sécurité de Charb, selon des sources syndicales policières. L'autre, Ahmed Merabet, a été tué à l'extérieur, alors que les assaillants prenaient la fuite." [23:04]
mircea_popescu check it out,they killed another muslim guy. is this allowed ?! [23:05]
decimation !up pete_dushenski [23:05]
decimation !up decimation [23:05]
* mircea_popescu gives voice to pete_dushenski [23:05]
pete_dushenski ty! [23:05]
decimation we are in jungle mode [23:05]
pete_dushenski hm so it seems [23:06]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu that is/are correction, where was that from? i couldn't place it [23:06]
mircea_popescu ? [23:06]
assbot Thank Your Lucky Trolls | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( ) [23:07]
pete_dushenski a merci! [23:08]
pete_dushenski corrigé! [23:09]
pete_dushenski some new material: [23:09]
assbot Some people can retire and some people can’t: A story about carrots. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( ) [23:09]
pete_dushenski [23:10]
assbot It’s called the Soviet-HARVARD illusion for a reason and that reason is Joshua Greene. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( ) [23:10]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the russian guy's wrong in pretty much all the particulars. they ran into tons of police. [23:10]
assbot Il est 11h30, deux hommes tirent «en rafale» dans «Charlie Hebdo» - Libération ... ( ) [23:10]
* asciilifeform was not there and did not count the police. [23:10]
mircea_popescu «face aux préjugés, l'importance de se réunir» commie president is at least retarded. [23:12]
mircea_popescu hey, prejudice exists specifically because you're "reunited". [23:12]
asciilifeform 'Here is a question for Minister Stoltenberg: Do appeals to (and enforcement of) tolerance make repeats of such incidents more frequent or less frequent, and, if so, why?' (old orlov article, ) [23:15]
assbot ClubOrlov: Politics of the Unconscious ... ( ) [23:15]
mircea_popescu i dunno dood. do appeals to "ignore" the crying child rather than smack him over the head make crying children less common or more common ? [23:16]
pete_dushenski hey, prejudice exists specifically because you're "reunited". << heh. i made a similar point in the soviet-harvard article [23:17]
pete_dushenski basically, pluralistic/cosmopolitan cities are fashions, not some morally superior imperative [23:17]
mircea_popescu who's joshua greene again ? [23:17]
pete_dushenski they can work, but not by default [23:18]
mircea_popescu that's a good point. [23:18]
pete_dushenski "Professor of Psychology and Director of the Moral Cognition Lab at Harvard University" [23:18]
mircea_popescu also, they can not work without well organised oppression. [23:18]
mircea_popescu heh mkay. [23:18]
asciilifeform see turkish example for how. [23:18]
pete_dushenski sure, the point being that there are an infinite number of ways they cannot work, and a few that they can [23:19]
mircea_popescu sure. [23:19]
pete_dushenski but the solutions involve, yes, strong leadership [23:19]
pete_dushenski and also modification of the physical environment [23:19]
mircea_popescu i really like these "academics" whose contribution to the world consists on "this model is supported by the fact that brain area activation" [23:19]
mircea_popescu phrenology 2.0 [23:19]
pete_dushenski not, as greene suggests, with typical progressive socialist lenses, "improving out thinking" [23:20]
mircea_popescu at least the computing turdmeisters don't (yet) prove systemd superiority by photographic cpus with tomograph units [23:20]
mircea_popescu photographing* [23:20]
pete_dushenski lol "the picture tells us..." [23:20]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the 'brain activation' folks are simply a somewhat more 'photogenic' version of the rest of usg academia, where virtually every physical science 'result', almost without exception, concerns some spurious correlation of this and that [23:20]
pete_dushenski they're far better served "reading" mattise than body scans [23:21]
asciilifeform at least the computing turdmeisters don't (yet) prove systemd superiority by photograph << actually. [23:21]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i guess. [23:21]
mircea_popescu i get really indignant when marketeers try to sell spuriousness, [23:21]
mircea_popescu but in fact all of academia does it, for much more money. [23:21]
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pete_dushenski and for "les prix" [23:22]
pete_dushenski like kim jong un's generals [23:22]
asciilifeform i make regular trips to my university maths/physical sciences library. there is a substantial comp-sci/discretes section there. i pull out, seriously, a book, one in three, random page - a graph. for almost precisely this, the comparison between the warm and the soft. [23:22]
mircea_popescu nah, themarketing cocksuckers give themselves tons of trophies [23:22]
mircea_popescu it's like porn minus the lube, seriously. [23:22]
asciilifeform great heuristic for what not to bother flipping through, but very frustrating re: how much space these take up on the shelves. [23:22]
pete_dushenski sounds... burny [23:23]
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asciilifeform ('graph' of the microshit office, 'comparison of efficiencies', vs graph theoretic kind) [23:23]
scoopbot New post on by cazalla: [23:25]
mariorz mats MCM-Mike McNumpty midnightmagic mike_c mircea_popescu mius MobGod mod6 mquin Mrstickball mthreat [23:25]
mircea_popescu this discussion is reminding mircea_popescu to go check on the "oh, we are economists, looking before we leap, there's a small minority disagreeing" crowd [23:25]
mircea_popescu lmao -dev is almost as retarded as the forum by now. [23:28]
mircea_popescu dgenr8 how about using the world's biggest bloom filter to prevent address reuse? it wouldn't add much to storage requirements [23:29]
mircea_popescu blockbits Can't wait until we have 20MB blocks. I've developed a easy to use web front-end for people to upload files to the blockchain, using scriptsigs to store data. they can retrieve files by simply pasting any TX. I've put aside a few hundreds thousand dollars to pay mining pools to mine my non-standard tx's for free. I was hoping we can increase the block size to 200MB... please make it as big as possible, my dat [23:29]
mircea_popescu a storage busin [23:29]
mircea_popescu etc, [23:29]
pete_dushenski lol! [23:29]
pete_dushenski maybe we should also make mining free, and use the scrypt fairness algorithm [23:30]
pete_dushenski << more lulz [23:30]
assbot Log In - The New York Times ... ( ) [23:30]
pete_dushenski because that's what profit is for, reinvestment [23:31]
pete_dushenski ... in diversity [23:31]
BingoBoingo Seriously though what is this forced prevention of address reuse bullshit. Spz I recieve at address, spend from and input there, happen to recieve there again... Anything that prevents spending the later balances recieved is an attack. [23:31]
mircea_popescu meanwhile, gavin hasn't been on #bitcoin-dev in the past two weeks, and was mentioned maybe a coupla times in the interval. [23:33]
mircea_popescu methinks the fake foundation derps are having a serious palatial moment these days. [23:33]
BingoBoingo bitcoin-dev exists better as a mailing list anyways. [23:33]
pete_dushenski palatial moment? [23:33]
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BingoBoingo !up ziishu [23:34]
* assbot gives voice to ziishu [23:34]
mircea_popescu curious what shall come out of this. [23:34]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: You know from that movie plot Mp mposted to trilema [23:34]
mircea_popescu pete_dushenski you know when the retarded horse discovers that the pigs are actually having fun in the pig room ? [23:34]
ziishu greetings, any change of a bb wager for blockchain hardfork [23:34]
ziishu chance* [23:34]
mircea_popescu why not ? spec it. [23:35]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i see i have some reading to catch up on :) [23:35]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: [23:35]
assbot The idea for a great film... pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [23:35]
ziishu lazy :) I was just thinking it would be a good idea [23:35]
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mircea_popescu sure lol. [23:35]
* mircea_popescu reads bb's link to see what this is! [23:35]
mircea_popescu oh. that also works lol. [23:35]
pete_dushenski i actually read that one! [23:35]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Emperor Eunuch and the Barbarians [23:35]
* pete_dushenski thinks mp and bb are thinking of different articles [23:36]
mircea_popescu but i was thinking more of the moment when the color revolutionaries discxover their leader is really a sort of adonis. [23:36]
BingoBoingo That one's just my default thought when MP says palace or palatial, because we all know MP prefers a bunch of apartments spread around town to a single palace. Decentralize all of the residence!!! [23:37]
mircea_popescu pete_dushenski i was refering to animal farm. [23:37]
mircea_popescu you know when the "guard of the revolution" discovers that their supreme leader isn't really into the revolution at all ? that thing. [23:37]
* Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [23:38]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu aha yes [23:38]
mircea_popescu palatial moment. when the derps in -dev discover that well... gavin isn't really into bitcoin. [23:38]
BingoBoingo !b 3 [23:38]
assbot Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [23:38]
mircea_popescu painful times. [23:38]
pete_dushenski i only saw the play. and while it was a splendid rendition, it was also some time ago. but i gets it nao! [23:39]
* [KS] has quit (Quit: BNC - [23:39]
pete_dushenski anways, i must sadly depart. good evening to all! [23:39]
mircea_popescu if you've seen american century x, there's that moment when norton's character finds out the old dude was really in prison for fraud. [23:39]
* pete_dushenski has quit () [23:40]
BingoBoingo And yet... the noise does not abate, but grows, and as it grows there's silence growing in the great hall too, under the marble arches, over the limpid pools. The emperor bids his guests eat, but they swallow knots, he bids them merry, but the one courtly concubine that starts to talk, trying to tell a joke, runs hoarse. And then, a centurion busts in, a different sort of man. Rugged, bearded, covered in soot and dried blood, he [23:40]
BingoBoingo screams that the West gate fell, and this is the last hour. [23:40]
mircea_popescu ahh, gripping huh. [23:40]
BingoBoingo Basically the story of everyone finding about Roger Ver's firecrackers and Uncle Shrem's bong. [23:41]
mircea_popescu well, i dunno how many people were seriously taking ver for some sort of leader. [23:42]
mircea_popescu maybe, i guess. [23:42]
BingoBoingo I dun imagine too many people of the kind in a position to support a leader. Still hurts when Ver blows his credibility on Gox's final days giving the scammer crowd room to pretend ther are Bitcoin 'Murica old hands. [23:44]
mircea_popescu is a point. [23:44]
BingoBoingo I mean fucking Jared Kenna having a renaissance and Homero Garza stepping in fresh off of ripping some New England mountain towns for WiFi? [23:46]
mircea_popescu heh. [23:47]
* PeterL (~peterl@unaffiliated/peterl) has joined #bitcoin-assets [23:47]
BingoBoingo !up PeterL [23:47]
* assbot gives voice to PeterL [23:47]
PeterL thanks [23:47]
BingoBoingo I mean even matonis seems kind of repentant about getting hooked into playing with Vessenes [23:48]
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  1. [...] their entirely hallucinated "wholesale" rate. This Argentine reinvention of the "convertible ruble" was initially proposed with the "tourist dollar" label and comes as Argentina once [...]

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