Forum logs for 25 Jan 2017
| davout: | looks like the log's not werking | [00:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | which one ? | [00:19] |
| BingoBoingo: | phf's a111 is offline per fleanode | [00:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | thanks goodness we have two. | [00:47] |
| ben_vulpes: | http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2017-1-25#b8eb36e5-0db2-4784-87b6-c9c385da5e0f << three! | [00:53] |
| ben_vulpes: | davout: ^^ | [00:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | three ? | [00:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | nice. | [00:54] |
| ben_vulpes: | even has search, although a very naive postgres full-text, not the "omfg exactly like grep" asciilifeform made phf build | [00:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [00:55] |
| ben_vulpes: | and with that i'm going back to the rocket stove | [00:55] |
| davout: | ben_vulpes: nice, the colors burn my eyes, but nice nonetheless | [01:05] |
| Framedragger: | very nice log btw ben_vulpes! | [03:54] |
| Framedragger: | redundancy ftw | [03:54] |
| Framedragger: | awesome colours, too | [03:54] |
| ben_vulpes: | ty | [04:02] |
| ben_vulpes: | davout: no accounting for taste | [04:03] |
| davout: | most useful word of the kreol morisyen language: "pena" | [05:05] |
| davout: | "we don't have", "there's non" | [05:05] |
| davout: | *none | [05:05] |
| davout: | protip if one ever tries to order food there: ask what they have, don't waste your time trying to order fancy shit like "a burger", "a wrap" or any other nonsense | [05:06] |
| davout: | usually ends up in their fucking fried noodles | [05:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | now we understand how the pacific islanders invented what later came to be known as us sizes. | [06:23] |
| * mircea_popescu | slathers even more beouf salad on top of lovingly homemade sourdough. you know that's real mayo, made by hand out eggs yes ? and that the womenz cook every day or else there's terrible consequences ? o look, there's half a pot of delicious soup! maybe i'll order some pie. which means - i say make pie, they make pie. | [06:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | if i had to order out in this shithole i'd have shot someone. did i ever tell you about the "sushi ya!" order which showed up THREE HOURS later ? idiots were VERY surprised nobody's taking their bs. | [06:27] |
| trinque: | the hell's this guy talking about, cursive text? nicknaem, you need to go spend some time on a ranch chopping off chicken heads / slitting pig throats or something http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-deal-with-little-girls/#selection-141.1143-141.1263 | [06:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno, i expect he collapsed from exhaustion | [06:45] |
| trinque: | it's pretty cool when the grocery stores close these people will last what, 3 wks? | [06:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | depends on the women. | [06:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway in other news it seems historical necessity is prevailing, trump is gonna forge an alliance with russia over everyone's objections. | [06:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | "October 2015, scientists at the University of New South Wales announced the successful design of a single-atom qubit 3D silicon chip architecture, making significant progress toward building a full-scale, operational Quantum Computer." | [06:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | what the fuck does the word soup even mean. | [06:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | totally, ignorance occurs when language fails. | [06:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | "While the last two decades have seen unambiguous experimental progress developing the science of Quantum Computation, there has never been a feasible, physical architecture developed upon which to scale-up the actual Computer itself. Not until today. Further, the success of specifically a ~silicon~ chip architecture now ensures that existing manufacturing facilities and processes can be more-easily upgraded" (emphasis his). | [07:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | how the fuck does this pass someone's filter ? so the dorks trying to push a scam decided the one thing that'd best improve the flavour of credibility would be spurious relation to existing practice, so now it's SILICON quantum computers, and you buy this, and even underline it of your own volition, as if it were a thing just because you wish it to be ? | [07:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | miracle cures! now with LABCOATS! hurr! | [07:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | silicone is used in electronics because of specific properties of its crystal lattice (it acts as a good substrate for dopants, resulting in nonlinear circuit elements). there's exactly nothing that recommends it over something like aerogel, or someone's stained tie, for the purpose of "quantum computing" | [07:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | "From left to right Dr Matthew House, Sam Hile (seated), Scientia Professor Sven Rogge and Scientia Professor Michelle Simmons of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Quantum Computation and Communication Technology at UNSW. Credit: Deb Smith, UNSW Australia" << fucking imagine that. | [07:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | SCIENTIA professors. | [07:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | "The great thing about this work, and architecture, is that it gives us an endpoint. We now know exactly what we need to do in the international race to get there." << the international race! endpoint! | [07:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyone wanna bet the only time we'll ever hear of any of those involved is when either the youthful dorks finally obtain the coveted (if meaningless) SCIENTIA title, or else when the two older farmhand looking idiots finally get their scientia-cum-laurels-and-hitler's-own-dinerfork-buttplug certificates ? | [07:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | "In the team's conceptual design, they have moved from a one-dimensional array of qubits, positioned along a single line, to a two-dimensional array, positioned on a plane that is far more tolerant to errors. This qubit layer is "sandwiched" in a three-dimensional architecture, between two layers of wires arranged in a grid." | [07:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | this comes from phys.org by the way, if anyone was about to take that mfa seriously. | [07:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, https://archive.is/0yq1G is the actual published item if anyone cares. tldr : dorks aware of which side bread is buttered created a silicone lattice with captive phosphorus on a plane, put wires on top and bottom and can now pump electrons into the so captured phosphorus. this DOES SOMETHING (tm). | [07:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | principally what it does is that it requires intricate production and then to be kept < 0.001 kelvin and such wonders. | [07:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | o right, also need a 2T field on at all times. | [07:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | but jay b huwieler ain't got no time to read the fucking article he's linked the (horrible) summary of, nor to understand wtf maintaining a 2T field costs, or for that matter milikelvin temperatures. fuck that, "now ensures that existing manufacturing facilities and processes can be more-easily upgraded to mass-produce quantum computational devices (QCD), in turn ostensibly reducing the time-to-market estimate for enterprise | [07:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | and consumer QCD offerings." | [07:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | imagine that, mass produced consumer items doing a magnetic flux density of 2 tesla! | [07:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | (the "strongest magnet in teh werld" title goes to something in the 20-30 T range it cost millions to build, it takes six oxen to drag around so on) | [07:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | as a bonus, ofcourse, hitachi pretty much owns neodymium magnets, and china pretty much owns everything to do with all the other rare earths also. | [07:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~google react program | [07:21] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: React .js Program: <http://reactjsprogram.com/> Missouri REACT Program -Required Educational Assessment and ...: <http://www.dwiprograms.com/id35.htm> Safety Council of Greater St Louis | SATOP/ REACT Programs: <http://www.stlsafety.org/satop-react-programs> | [07:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh ok. | [07:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, check him out, everyone wants his porn industry to be "the reliable bridge" between "pure STEM R&D" and "free market consumerism". everyone's a tindr, getting the weird shy boys in the slimy wet bed of expectant females, dontchakno. hurr durr an' a bottle o' dross. | [07:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Currently, one mechanism the DoD has at its disposal domestically is Department of Homeland Security Presidential Directive 7 (protecting infrastructure deemed critical to National Security). If the most immediate application of QC is harvesting foreign government secrets by breaking intercepted data of its classical encryption then the QCD itself clearly falls under HSPD 7. Another option is that if QC were to be used with | [07:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | AI to power unauthorized access against foreign state and non-state actors, then both code and design could be interpreted as defense items. Then it could fall under Title 50 of US Code, appear on the United States Munitions List, Category XVII (Classified Articles, Technical Data, and Defense Services Not Otherwise Enumerated) and therefore be subject the Arms Export Control Act. Once under DoD control those examples of QC c | [07:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | ode, design, and technical datum would likely be further controlled by classification at the TOP SECRET level with some kind of Alternate Compensatory Control Measure specific to QC and QCW." | [07:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | bwahahaha | [07:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | ok, ok, i'm done befouling the logs. such insanity. | [07:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | https://archive.is/yXziR << excelent diagnosis piece as to how the chanting hordes of the blue state managed to fuck up things wrt munitions. it's a fine complement to http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/#selection-113.485-113.615 | [08:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | https://archive.is/yXziR#selection-2965.0-2977.49 is the paydirt. | [08:24] |
| deedbot: | http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D9AD9D8BC1CA4501EDDCD7082644E3F06851B3F793BC05FD08A2953D5E42275C << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1684...3763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.214.86.159 (ssh-rsa key from 85.214.86.159 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (apelserv.de. DE BE) | [09:12] |
| deedbot: | http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D9AD9D8BC1CA4501EDDCD7082644E3F06851B3F793BC05FD08A2953D5E42275C << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1602...1369 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.214.86.159 (ssh-rsa key from 85.214.86.159 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (apelserv.de. DE BE) | [09:12] |
| asciilifeform: | http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-25-jan-2017#2232414 << fwiw you can get ~5T from a halbach array (unrefrigerated permanent magnet) | [09:20] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 12:13 mircea_popescu: o right, also need a 2T field on at all times. | [09:20] |
| asciilifeform: | it's how desktop nmr box worx. | [09:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | i thought the alloy perma ones do about .5 | [09:20] |
| asciilifeform: | 5 with spherical rig. | [09:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | some other empire will have to do that, this one seems to cap out at plastic 200W electric driller | [09:21] |
| asciilifeform: | it's an off the shelf thing, go an' buy as many as you like. | [09:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | while china ships | [09:22] |
| asciilifeform: | naturally. | [09:22] |
| asciilifeform: | (i cannot speak for folx living in other monkeystans, but over here even shoelaces will remain available strictly while-china-ships) | [09:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | so how much is one of these 5T itemz ? | [09:24] |
| asciilifeform: | http://www.duramag.com << vendor picked blindly. go ahead and ask'em... | [09:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | just idle curiosity. | [09:27] |
| asciilifeform: | then divide by 10 and get the nonamerican price. | [09:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh, not really consumer grade ? more than 20 byux ? | [09:28] |
| asciilifeform: | if i had to guess the actual unit cost, i'd put it at couple of hundy. | [09:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | dude huy-something from the us-still-thinks-it-matters dept told me ima get it in my wristwatch! | [09:29] |
| asciilifeform: | who the hell needed a konsoomer nmr magnet again?! | [09:29] |
| asciilifeform: | is this the sr dope testing crackpottery again..? | [09:29] |
| * asciilifeform | catches up on l0gz | [09:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | you've not been following along, there's a department of us army intelligentsia which is putting together an anally insertable quantum computer out of 2T and 0.001 kelvin | [09:30] |
| asciilifeform: | aaaaah it's http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606329 | [09:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-24 06:09 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606239 << d00d has some rather surreal 'thousand year usg reich' wtf, e.g., https://huwieler.net/2015/10/30/quantum-cyber-warfare-the-defense-policy-we-dont-have-but-should/ | [09:30] |
| asciilifeform: | l0l | [09:30] |
| asciilifeform: | kosoomer qc wtf. | [09:31] |
| asciilifeform: | usg really, really wants the wunderwaffen. | [09:31] |
| trinque: | fusion powered emdrive starship with quantum computing cargo knapsacker!1!11 | [09:32] |
| asciilifeform: | (naturally it would be approx. as useless as alchemy would have been, had it worked to spec, and much more quickly so) | [09:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | aww | [09:34] |
| asciilifeform: | then again they have ~30 yrs of rsa traffic to wank over | [09:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | the notion of "quantum computing" is possibly the most idiotic thing on the table today. | [09:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | really, bitch, they're gonna do what you want ? because why. | [09:41] |
| asciilifeform: | it's a screamingly single-purpose (hypothetical) mechanism. | [09:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | im hard pressed to deliberately compose something more autistically idiotic. | [09:43] |
| asciilifeform: | dunno, some of the fusion concepts come close. | [09:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | literally, mana from heaven is not a more contortedly i-read-penthouse-in-physics-class | [09:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform i hold they are not, for the following reason : the nonsense of contained cold fusion rests on mechanical problems, ie, the plasma expands and therefore cools too fast. at least we have SOME TOOLS to do mechanical work with. like you know, a fulcrum. perhaps the plasma could be put in a fulcrum somehow ? or maybe with cogs ? dunno, should at least investigate. | [09:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | meanwhile the problem with quantum computing is in the fucking name. we have NO tools to do quantum work with. none. we've never heard of one existing, we can't conceive how one'd even work, if it did, which it doesn't, because it doesn't exist. | [09:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | we even have a multitude of strong statements of impossibility all converging towards a hearty "fuck you" located at the core of this concept | [09:47] |
| asciilifeform: | NO tools << e.g., spin valve, exists. there's one in your hdd. | [09:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | there isn't even a measuring tool we have nfi if any observed effect is even anything. | [09:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | because no, excitation levels aren't "quantum" in the sense contemplated here. | [09:48] |
| asciilifeform: | nobody invents alchemy when there 'are no tools.' alchemies happen when you got the tools, but not the knowing-wtf-you-are-doing | [09:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform how exactly do you propose the spin valve is related to the "qubits" business ? | [09:49] |
| asciilifeform: | it is as related as 12th century retort was related to turning lead to gold. | [09:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | for the same money "we have" the process whereby glass can be rendered transparent or opaque through recrystalization | [09:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | what, that also ? | [09:50] |
| asciilifeform: | as for 'how to even know whether it works', that one's easy. qc is strictly a wunderwaffen for breaking rsa. if it breaks rsa -- it worx. otherwise, not. | [09:50] |
| asciilifeform: | nobody cares ~how~. | [09:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | i dunno how to meaningfully discuss it in terms of time, but i am willing to bet anything that the leap between $current-situation and $quantum-computing is larger not just than the alchemy-to-cyclotron gap, but actually larger than all extant science. | [09:51] |
| asciilifeform: | conceivably. | [09:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | it takes more cognition to go from pottery to desktop nrm than to go from desktop nrm to that sort of parallel computation. | [09:51] |
| asciilifeform: | but politically the situation has an obscenely close resemblance to alchemy | [09:52] |
| asciilifeform: | idiot rulers throwing $maxint at it, in hopes that somethig -- ANYTHING -- works | [09:52] |
| asciilifeform: | and are quite content to fund random stabs in the dark, or even outright charlatans | [09:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | in that sense i propose the MP Certainty, which says that it will NEVER happen. ie, at no point in the history of humanity will it be cheaper to break rsa through "quantum computing" than through electronic computing. | [09:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | and this includes situations 100k years in the future where qc ie quantum communication is actually used. computing, not so much, for the ~same reasons. | [09:54] |
| asciilifeform: | i'll point out, largely for n00bz, that we do not in fact know whether breaking rsa is hard. | [09:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes, but that didn't enter into the above. | [09:55] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: 'quantum communication' is golden toilet nonsense, for the cost of building the link, you can perma-sync a thousand years of OTP. | [09:56] |
| asciilifeform: | and use ordinary copper/fiber | [09:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, re qc, bonus lulz for the huy-guy : so the chinese are trying to do it over satellites, because currently it's been demonstrated over much shorter distances. and the dod bright lightbulb (seriously, he is probably the smartest guy there, seeing how he has a blog) went "oh, this would allow safe key transfer, well tell you what, the army could DoS the system!" | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | fancy that wonder, he's going to intervene in quantum field. | [09:57] |
| asciilifeform: | btw magnetic tape really shines in otp-land. it costs a penny a GB, and you can trivially write two tapes identically with same head (plugged into rng naturally), AND -- bonus -- can destroy it immediately when it comes out of read head. | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform i'm not discussing practical utility, merely that it makes sense from a technical perspective. unlike the other thing. | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | but - yes. | [09:58] |
| asciilifeform: | (there is no conceivable reason to put otp on expensive, non-disposable random-access disks, other than not having anything better) | [09:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah | [09:58] |
| asciilifeform: | even the humble steel wire recorder, ancestor of magnetophone, could easily come back as a practical thing. | [10:00] |
| asciilifeform: | demagnetize when it emerges from read head with that selfsame halbach magnet. | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | https://archive.is/IkPjo#selection-417.364-421.293 << direct link to the butthurt in question | [10:01] |
| phf: | FUCKGOATS extension board.. | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | "oh, if the chinese do qke, the us army will... have to find a way to diddle all keys in subatomic transit" | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | mmkay. | [10:01] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: hey, it's what they picked for 'how to deal with pgp' | [10:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | totally worked. | [10:02] |
| asciilifeform: | when monkey can only throw shit -- he throws shit. | [10:02] |
| asciilifeform: | what else can he throw. | [10:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Jump forward to 2030, give them the benefit, and assume that Beijing can securely distribute quantum encryption keys that cannot be broken. Can they guarantee that by 2030 their average Soldier will be any less susceptible to phishing attacks and wont click on links embedded in unsolicited emails?" | [10:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | gee whiz. i dunno. | [10:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | maybe we should have a teat pulling sit-in over this. | [10:04] |
| asciilifeform: | (finishing touch on the otp subthread : the mega-virtue of steel wire vs magnetic tape, is that you can heat it to its curie point for rapid-zapping, without creating smoking, melted mess. so good emergency erase -- just put current through the spool.) | [10:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | actually, some proper made flash tape would also work great | [10:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | one spark and bam | [10:07] |
| asciilifeform: | thermite already exists. but there are distinct advantages to non-pyrotechnic key zapping. | [10:07] |
| asciilifeform: | (e.g., not setting your house on fire , in even of false alarm. and not requiring massive asbestos chest. etc) | [10:07] |
| asciilifeform: | *event | [10:08] |
| asciilifeform: | ideal eraser is probably a 'belt and suspenders' approach, where the wire is pulled through neodymium magnet (with hand crank backup) but meanwhile a pancake magnet is lowered onto the spool (for rapid, though imperfect, erase, in case there is not time to wind the entire tape) and at the same time current is run through the steel wire, if a current source is available. | [10:10] |
| asciilifeform: | or heat with chemical heater (as used in american army rations). | [10:11] |
| phf: | (just as long as the final device looks like this http://museumofmagneticsoundrecording.org/images/R2R/WebsterChicago78a.jpg ) | [10:12] |
| asciilifeform: | you want a zap that cannot be cancelled, even by mechanically separating the 'zapper' from the payload with explosive. | [10:12] |
| deedbot: | http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/01/25/feelings-are-helpful-but-not-for-idiots/ << Ossasepia - Feelings are helpful, but not for idiots | [10:12] |
| asciilifeform: | phf: or this -- http://www.minoxdoc.com/MVC-002F.JPG | [10:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform really, the "not time" is no considerent. | [10:12] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: probably there is no reason to ever bother with slow zaps. | [10:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | my thought was more along the lines of "if the difference between a second and a minute has a practical effect, there are other broken parts of the whole process that need fixing" | [10:14] |
| asciilifeform: | actually i can think of 1 traditional situation where it does | [10:15] |
| asciilifeform: | the key zap in a fighter jet | [10:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm ? | [10:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | you building fighter jets now ? | [10:15] |
| asciilifeform: | where the thing is breaking apart in the air, and potentially on quick collision course with ground | [10:15] |
| asciilifeform: | hey i don't build fusion reactors either. | [10:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | problem solved. | [10:16] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: well no, problem not solved, the pieces on the ground can easily have residue of key, if the zapper is mechanically damaged before it can finish zapping. | [10:16] |
| asciilifeform: | which can indeed be a difference of 3 vs 1 sec. | [10:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | you're not building fighters therefore the "other broken parts of the whole process" have been identified and disposed of. | [10:17] |
| phf: | asciilifeform grew up on "Seventeen Moments of Spring", plans his life accordingly | [10:17] |
| asciilifeform: | i don't build jets. but i do live deep behind enemy lines, and will have -- if lucky -- about 5 seconds of time to pull the pin when the door breaks down. | [10:17] |
| asciilifeform: | but certainly no moar than 5. | [10:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | so install some cameras. | [10:18] |
| asciilifeform: | everybody has cameras. | [10:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | and you're wrong, a claymore going off in response to a hammering of the door will postpone the raid by HOURS | [10:18] |
| asciilifeform: | raid yes -- demolition no. | [10:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | ~nothing easier in the world than making a team of us experts shit their pants and spend the rest of the day loitering waiting for "the conversation" to happen. | [10:19] |
| asciilifeform: | (btw usg luuuuvvvs self-immolators, they cut down on paperwork) | [10:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | specificity of diddling again applies. just as long as your response is not categorically identifiable, the empire is stuck in the one place it hates. | [10:20] |
| trinque: | whatever, they love to sit there and piss about importantly on the phone with 300 people surrounding | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm kinda surprised nobody does the claymore security door thing. "if you shock this door... nice knowing you." | [10:20] |
| asciilifeform: | i suspect that all of the folx who did this , are resting in peace/pieces | [10:30] |
| asciilifeform: | (ever have car alarm? it never went off from the wind?) | [10:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's a huge space there to pick a threshold. | [10:31] |
| phf: | hmm, i can't recall anyone doing it in the 90s. i think this is a uniquely american problem though, where you can't trust frame to hold the door in place. traditional solution is to simply put the door on welded frame inside a concrete hole, so you will need something better than a claymore to dislodge it | [10:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | phf nah, the idea is you get exactly like current, "security door" except the half inch steel sheet is on the inside, then 3 claymores stacked, then a thin al profile on the outside facing. have a shock detector modeled on 90% of the kinetic delivery of the standard issue us invasion corps battering ram. | [10:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | an earthquake won't do it (too slow). | [10:34] |
| phf: | "front toward enemy" | [10:41] |
| asciilifeform: | phf: the reason why american doors are what they are, is that the house is made of ~cardboard | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | does it matter what kind of door, on a paper house / | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | ? | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | for bonus penetrability, typical american dwelling also has ~massive~ glass door (often, double-width) in the rear. | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | why these are built, i cannot say. i suppose americans believe that theft is part of the great circle of life, and burglars are also people, and Need to Eat, etc. | [10:53] |
| trinque: | nah, it's much closer to "I just want to" and govt is responsible for preventing it | [10:54] |
| asciilifeform: | why would anybody want this. | [10:54] |
| trinque: | why indeed. they're obedient creatures and this they're told is of the category of "fancy shit you can bolt to the side of" your house | [10:56] |
| asciilifeform: | i always suspected that the glass doors are a kind of 'fuse' | [10:56] |
| asciilifeform: | cheaper to replace a glass than to drywall a new wall. | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | so it is indeed 'designated burglar entrance' | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc we had a thread here about ritual concessions to thieves, folx placing car keys where thief will find'em, etc | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | unrelatedly: in re the metal lisp thread: http://picolisp.com/wiki/?PilOS << i could not get this to boot. but it is ~exactly what i had in mind (i'd much prefer that it be with a scheme, rather than a crackpot dynamically-scoped 1970s lisp, but the idea is illustrative) | [11:01] |
| asciilifeform: | i have 3 versions of qemu here, all of'em end up with 'read error 9'. | [11:04] |
| asciilifeform: | this is ~universal with crackpot x86 os btw. | [11:04] |
| asciilifeform: | the hardware is so monumentally idiot that even ~emulator~ behaviour is nonstandardized, even between versions of same emulator. | [11:04] |
| asciilifeform: | in other lulz, 'US urged Britain to keep Trident blunder secret. Obama administration ‘feared missile failure put American nuclear deterrent at risk’.' | [11:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [11:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | because why. not like it's not in the logs that they dun werk. | [11:11] |
| asciilifeform: | 'A failure in the data communications system of the US-made weapon system has been blamed. Lockheed Martin, based in Maryland, builds and maintains the missiles.' | [11:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | o wait lm is based in maryland ? | [11:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | i was thinking turkmenistan | [11:12] |
| asciilifeform: | monkeystan | [11:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | i deemed myselg well informed by the nonfakenews outlets. | [11:13] |
| asciilifeform: | further lulz re retardation of x86 -- http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=21720 | [11:41] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and bonus gcc idiocy ) | [11:41] |
| asciilifeform: | in other lulz, https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/DrIFT/original/History.html >> 'You asked whether naming your software `Haskell Derive' would be satisfactory, and you explained your reasoning for wishing to adopt that name. We believe that we understand your reasoning, but the critical point is that including `Derive' as part of your software's name in *any* manner is not permissible. That fact is not | [12:19] |
| asciilifeform: | changed by adding other words to `Derive', nor by your belief that the word `derive' is an accurate description, using the correct terminology, of the purpose of the software. In pursuit of your academic research project, please rename your software to avoid using `Derive' or any other word that might cause a reasonable likelihood of confusion with `Derive'' | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | thisis actually not how it works. | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | schmucks don't own the ~word~ "derive". | [12:19] |
| asciilifeform: | microshit's 'nt' case emboldened derps everywhere | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, yes the case is "reasonable likelihood of confusion", but no this does not mean 'don't use the word'. | [12:20] |
| asciilifeform: | the lulzy bit is that soft-warehouse (makers of subj, and one-time mega-monopoly, they made the only good lisp for msdos pc) was bought by ti and put in a hole, and cement poured. | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is ~why fcc-like authorities exist. to forbid the usg to buy and derp like this. | [12:21] |
| asciilifeform: | waiwat, fcc?! | [12:21] |
| asciilifeform: | the usg ministry of radio ? | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | ftc-like* | [12:22] |
| asciilifeform: | usg ministry of chumpatronics ? | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | whatever the thing which goes "your money has no value here" | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie if i sold some btc to buy lm and relocate it to turkmenistan | [12:22] |
| asciilifeform: | in other lulz, http://archive.is/j41JR >> 'A group of at least seven protesters, apparently with Greenpeace, are scaling a crane in downtown Washington DC in protest at US President Donald Trump. ... the protesters unfurled a 35ft by 75ft banner reading “Resist,” 270ft above the ground. ' | [12:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | i feel this will make a lot of difference. | [12:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | who knows, maybe they even get laid. | [12:49] |
| asciilifeform: | about same diff as the famous banana | [12:49] |
| asciilifeform: | ( http://btcbase.org/log/2014-09-17#831998 ) | [12:49] |
| a111: | Logged on 2014-09-17 02:47 asciilifeform: http://www.tpnn.com/2014/08/07/video-russian-laser-show-features-obama-sucking-on-a-banana | [12:49] |
| phf: | that's the most "direct action" any greenpiece activist participated in the past 30 years | [12:52] |
| asciilifeform: | eh aren't these the folx who sink ships when nobody's looking | [12:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | in the 80s | [12:54] |
| asciilifeform: | i suppose ~everything~ went to shit while i slept in the cave. even this. | [12:54] |
| phf: | ^ | [12:54] |
| * mircea_popescu | recalls a time in the 90s... concidentally at the time the world was last great i was too young to care much about women. | [12:55] |
| phf: | there's this anti-japanese-whaling direct action guy, who got kicked out of greenpiece in the early 2000s for too much direct actioning | [12:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | refused to use a condom! | [12:56] |
| phf: | http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-commentary/commentary/archive/the-truth-about-greenpeace-and-whaling.html | [12:56] |
| asciilifeform: | unrelatedly, if phf or anybody else has a copy of mulisp-90, plz to post. | [12:57] |
| asciilifeform: | 90 specifically. | [12:58] |
| asciilifeform: | (afaik it vanished entirely from www.) | [12:58] |
| phf: | meanwhile at asciilifeform's secret lair http://68.media.tumblr.com/6e282fce49d57f4935f1f7758376fe1b/tumblr_nr4e9kVr2f1tcuhpfo1_500.jpg | [13:03] |
| asciilifeform: | lol engelbart's toiletron | [13:04] |
| BingoBoingo: | !~ticker --market all | [13:05] |
| jhvh1: | BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 891.97, vol: 7048.19700071 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 893.002, vol: 4579.52776 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 892.97, vol: 13180.92448259 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 901.152053, vol: 12709.73980000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 896.959, vol: 2646.31761359 | Volume-weighted last average: 895.650120993 | [13:06] |
| trinque: | d'oh, I found 86 | [13:07] |
| trinque: | http://www.din.uem.br/ia/ferramen/monoparadigmas/lisp/implementacao/mulisp/ | [13:07] |
| asciilifeform: | trinque: common as dirt | [13:07] |
| deedbot: | http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0B7BC41BDD6707815C42C207285C3FF4CE0B4FEB78CA44079BD210B7B47D996E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1776...1169 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.247.232.5 (ssh-rsa key from 80.247.232.5 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (vserver26.nfrance.com. FR 31 N) | [13:21] |
| deedbot: | http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0B7BC41BDD6707815C42C207285C3FF4CE0B4FEB78CA44079BD210B7B47D996E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1783...5193 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.247.232.5 (ssh-rsa key from 80.247.232.5 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (vserver26.nfrance.com. FR 31 N) | [13:21] |
| ben_vulpes: | http://pastebin.com/FFSQUML9 << the fiat noose tightens | [13:30] |
| ben_vulpes: | everything must be free except speech | [13:30] |
| Framedragger: | blood, needles, and vampirism | [13:31] |
| phf: | "I appologize [...] I believe we did what we had to do" that's not how appologies work. | [13:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [13:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | it does contain THE WORD dunnit ? | [13:39] |
| phf: | we have evoked the name of saint apologia, therefore we are above reproach | [13:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | too bad she only blesses people wearing the blessed crocs. | [13:43] |
| asciilifeform: | in other noose, asciilifeform's main comp has finally released magic smoke. | [13:55] |
| asciilifeform: | turns out even 'tyan' mobo dun last 4evah. | [13:55] |
| asciilifeform: | 11 yrs. | [13:57] |
| mats: | >Trump orders construction of border wall, moves to increase deportations | [14:58] |
| ben_vulpes: | mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/exceptionalismul-feminin/ << translation candidate? | [15:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | hanbot just did that one | [15:00] |
| ben_vulpes: | ah fuq | [15:01] |
| asciilifeform: | source and keep hardware spares, folx. even for 'eternal' iron. don't wait until problem is acute. | [15:01] |
| ben_vulpes: | asciilifeform: also "perform backups and regularly restore from them" | [15:02] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: goes without saying | [15:02] |
| asciilifeform: | but backup is of very limited use when you've nothing to compute on. | [15:03] |
| ben_vulpes: | mircea_popescu: brain scans are phrenology, not astrology | [15:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | or chiromancy w/e you call i | [15:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | t | [15:05] |
| ben_vulpes: | ah there's the hanbot piece in muhfeeds. | [15:09] |
| ben_vulpes: | okay so i didn't not do my homework yet. | [15:09] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: it is interesting, at one point it was possible to source pre-2012 opteron mb quite cheaply, now they are ~gone | [15:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ('socket f' to be specific) | [15:11] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Yes, it was mainly for FetLife's and my protection, and we had to act swiftly. One could easily argue that we didn't move swift enough and that I shouldn't even make this post because something in it might incriminate FetLife or me.' << lel | [15:54] |
| ben_vulpes: | FEAR | [15:54] |
| asciilifeform: | wasn't the whole point of the thing 'like arsebook but UNCENSORED!11!!!!!!232323' ?? | [15:54] |
| ben_vulpes: | YOUR PERVERSE THOUGHTS MARK YOU FOR THE GULAG | [15:54] |
| ben_vulpes: | inb4 Framedragger builds a bitcoin kinknet | [15:55] |
| asciilifeform: | wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook. | [15:55] |
| ben_vulpes: | ask him | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Historically we've sided more with individual members needs, but what we've learned from recent events is that we need to start putting more weight on the safety of the community, FetLife, and the team behind FetLife - including my personal safety.' << most cowards have at least the virtue of stfu-ing | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | not, apparently, this one. | [15:56] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Let's say we move our servers to the newly formed country of Fetopia. The US, UK, Australia, Germany, etc. can still make it difficult for people within their countries' borders to access FetLife. I don't think we would do the community a favor by making FetLife harder to access.' | [15:59] |
| asciilifeform: | ahaha this is gold | [15:59] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.' | [15:59] |
| deedbot: | http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults << CH - Perceived vs. actual barriers to homeownership for young adults | [16:02] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-171 | [16:13] |
| ben_vulpes: | asciilifeform: ack | [16:23] |
| deedbot: | http://cascadianhacker.com/hey-kid-want-to-buy-some-verboten-hate-speech << CH - "Hey kid, want to buy some VERBOTEN HATE SPEECH?" | [16:34] |
| phf: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606341 << optimization strategy is when you have a slow algorithm somewhere in your architecture (you put it there because it was a reasonable tradeoff at the point), but you can replace it with a faster algorithm without leaving too much damage on the architecture (alf calls it "scaring") | [16:44] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-24 06:43 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606322 << you'll have to one day sit down and explain to me exactly what you mean by "optimization strategy". | [16:44] |
| ben_vulpes: | ugh mircea_popescu how do i find the qualia thread in your blog | [16:46] |
| phf: | so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one | [16:47] |
| trinque: | ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121007 | [16:51] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606725 >> scarring ? | [17:17] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 21:44 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606341 << optimization strategy is when you have a slow algorithm somewhere in your architecture (you put it there because it was a reasonable tradeoff at the point), but you can replace it with a faster algorithm without leaving too much damage on the architecture (alf calls it "scaring") | [17:17] |
| ben_vulpes: | trinque: ty | [17:18] |
| ben_vulpes: | oh fucking lol | [17:21] |
| ben_vulpes: | in which it is shown that xcode's "find occurences of string in project" ACTUALLY FUCKING DOES NOT | [17:22] |
| ben_vulpes: | WHAT i ask you IS THE POINT of an ultra-heavy IDE that a) cannot tell me where the protocol breakage is during a refactor much less what to do about it b) has a project search SO MISERABLY BAD that a man must revert to grep in order to find ANYTHING | [17:22] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-174 | [17:30] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: i find broken ~search~ particularly infuriating, because it is so easy to make a working (i.e. grep-compatible) one | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | esp. if you are already lifting a standard unix userland | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | and grep is ~there~ | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | broken searches are nearly always a result of some pathetic piece of shit trying to 'be clever'. | [17:32] |
| asciilifeform: | (and the occasional literate d00d, e.g., phf, naively making use of a library written by 'clever' peopel) | [17:33] |
| asciilifeform: | *people | [17:33] |
| ben_vulpes: | i hear ya | [17:33] |
| ben_vulpes: | i ain't selling "pg fts" as any sort of solution 'tis largely an experiment in pg search and data modeling. | [17:34] |
| asciilifeform: | what's pgfts? | [17:34] |
| ben_vulpes: | postgres full text search "some pathetic piece of shit trying to be clever" | [17:34] |
| asciilifeform: | ah | [17:34] |
| asciilifeform: | sounds pretty spartan | [17:35] |
| asciilifeform: | (and what exactly other choices do you have if all of your thing lives in pg) | [17:35] |
| ben_vulpes: | granted, it serves a different problem, "searching documents" with naive user input. | [17:35] |
| ben_vulpes: | asciilifeform: posix regexes work, i'll see what the performance implications are of using those instead. | [17:35] |
| ben_vulpes: | also phf may i please have the log backups? | [17:36] |
| * asciilifeform | bbl -- meat | [17:38] |
| ben_vulpes: | mircea_popescu: how about http://trilema.com/2009/pe-scurt-despre-analiza-tranzactionala/ | [18:24] |
| ben_vulpes: | in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/ | [18:42] |
| ben_vulpes: | for BingoBoingo http://i.imgur.com/NuNbW1X.gifv | [19:31] |
| * mircea_popescu | welcomes this renewed interest in early trilemaz! | [19:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | ben_vulpes first mentioned (ever! in history!) here : http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121007 then referenced in http://trilema.com/2017/dupa-dealuri/#comment-121112 and http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-deal-with-little-girls/#comment-121192 | [20:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606709 << is that vintage idiocy or novel ? | [20:06] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 20:54 asciilifeform: 'Yes, it was mainly for FetLife's and my protection, and we had to act swiftly. One could easily argue that we didn't move swift enough and that I shouldn't even make this post because something in it might incriminate FetLife or me.' << lel | [20:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606714 << was briefly discussed at the time if you recall the spec wasn't for centralization. | [20:06] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 20:55 asciilifeform: wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook. | [20:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606720 << this pretty much sums up the idiocy of those people. | [20:08] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 20:59 asciilifeform: 'Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.' | [20:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606728 << i don't readily perceive the difference between these two cases outside of "if girls are thirsty they're still stupid whereas if i need to shit i know where the wc is." | [20:09] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 21:47 phf: so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one | [20:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606735 << i don't think anyone ever held that xcode is either functional or useful. apple likes it because it's tm and that's about it. | [20:12] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 22:22 ben_vulpes: WHAT i ask you IS THE POINT of an ultra-heavy IDE that a) cannot tell me where the protocol breakage is during a refactor much less what to do about it b) has a project search SO MISERABLY BAD that a man must revert to grep in order to find ANYTHING | [20:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606740 << broken everything is always this. never anything else. not even possible to be anything else. | [20:13] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 22:32 asciilifeform: broken searches are nearly always a result of some pathetic piece of shit trying to 'be clever'. | [20:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | broken shit is what you get when you don't let the "overly agresive Alphas" beat shithead manning into a bloody pulp. | [20:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | ben_vulpes what's the "everything should be free" thing ? | [20:26] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606759 << new. from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606683 | [20:31] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-26 01:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606709 << is that vintage idiocy or novel ? | [20:31] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 18:30 ben_vulpes: http://pastebin.com/FFSQUML9 << the fiat noose tightens | [20:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm | [20:31] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606755 is first-class lulfodder btw. | [20:32] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/ | [20:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh. they should have thought of THAT before being annoying. | [20:32] |
| * mircea_popescu | clearly recalls that when i showed somethingawful.com the cat they immediately stfu and ran away. | [20:32] |
| asciilifeform: | waiwat, who thought of what | [20:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | nothing easier than to turn off cc processing for one of these "website businesses" | [20:33] |
| asciilifeform: | aaah them | [20:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | takes me all of half an hour to organize a 10% chargeback pile, which is the immediate end, for isntance. | [20:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | and this isn't just re derpy "democratic" forum or herpy "free" sexploitatation venue. this applies to the fucking guardian, or to wikipedia. | [20:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | the ONLY reason they're still here is that i've not decided to end them. | [20:34] |
| asciilifeform: | not worth bullet, eh | [20:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | not even that. i don't perceive they're actually hurting. yes they're fucking up the lives of idiots. so ? | [20:36] |
| thestringpuller: | http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/25/venezuelan-authorities-bitcoin-crypto << didn't realize VZ was fascists? Secret police starting to round up Bitcoin miners eh? | [20:37] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc there was a spiffy mircea_popescu article about the costs of letting 'harmless' idiots live (makes idiocy seem acceptable) | [20:37] |
| asciilifeform: | but i can't recall where. | [20:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform consider ben_vulpes 's latest article. the choice is very clearly available the sort of mind who nevertheless opts for idiocy truly deserves it. | [20:38] |
| asciilifeform: | theoretically there is a borderland of folx who straddle the edge of sanity | [20:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | i'm not about to forcibly get people to stop smoking. | [20:39] |
| asciilifeform: | they ask 'can i get away with being idiot' | [20:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes i'm aware that forcibly works and their own heads don't. so ? | [20:39] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Morales had no rope. And no fingers. He had a ten-foot length of bandage. And brass balls. Somehow, this dude with no fingers lowers himself from the window on the bandage. It snaps. Morales falls 20 feet onto an air conditioner, then another 20 feet to the ground. Injured, but alive. The Family and FALN whisk him away.' << first-class. | [20:41] |
| mod6: | So, my V changes that implement a proper wot-variant V are looking pretty decent. however, I thought up an edge case that I'd like to discuss a bit more -- and I know we've been over this a bunch, and even recently. | [20:42] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: bring it on | [20:44] |
| mod6: | Say that we have a flow, like trb, with all sorts of vpatches that stem from one single root. where that root is designated as a 'root' because all of its inputs are 'false'. what should happen with a vpatch that, for instance, just adds a file to the source and has no antecedents, nor decendants. | [20:44] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: like shiva genesis ? | [20:45] |
| asciilifeform: | it's a second root and mircea_popescu really, really hates'em. | [20:45] |
| mod6: | so this one single vpatch has a 'false' input, and a non-zero sha512 output. | [20:45] |
| asciilifeform: | but they work fine in my vtron. | [20:45] |
| asciilifeform: | you just see two roots. | [20:45] |
| mod6: | ok, i'd have to look at shiva genesis again here. but yeah, multiple roots. | [20:45] |
| asciilifeform: | each with entirely own existence . | [20:45] |
| asciilifeform: | they don't screw the thing up in any way. | [20:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | actually that status451 article is not half bad. | [20:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | mod6 such a "patch" may not exist. | [20:47] |
| mod6: | so in the case of my previous implementation (V99995), these island-roots would simply endup at the end of the flow, as a leaf. as they are both a root and a leaf at the same time. | [20:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | either it builds in its own independent tree, or else it declares an antecedent in the trb tree. | [20:47] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: wtf means 'root and leaf at the same time' | [20:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | rule is very simple : all items with false inputs create a project. whole, independent. | [20:48] |
| asciilifeform: | these are definitionally separate things | [20:48] |
| mod6: | ok, so that's basically what I was wondering. to be designated a proper 'root', do we also add the criteria of "must have an actual proper decendant" | [20:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | mod6 nope. | [20:48] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: consider the time when genesis alone existed. | [20:49] |
| asciilifeform: | it was a perfectly valid vtree. | [20:49] |
| asciilifeform: | the way, e.g., FUCKGOATS-genesis, is today. | [20:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah. | [20:49] |
| mod6: | ok i guess that would be bad in the sense that "i'm just staring this project, my genesis should be a root even though nothing descends it yet..." | [20:49] |
| mod6: | asciilifeform: yah, got it. | [20:49] |
| mod6: | <+asciilifeform> mod6: wtf means 'root and leaf at the same time' << in the old code, it is a root, because it has no antecedents, and it is a leaf because it also has no descendants. | [20:50] |
| asciilifeform: | aah | [20:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | the latter dun exactly make it a leaf tho | [20:50] |
| asciilifeform: | at any rate 'solitary node' is a perfectly valid state for a vtree. | [20:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | the criteria for root/leaf are the same : anything false, root. anything non-false, leaf. | [20:51] |
| asciilifeform: | i can easily picture, e.g., FUCKGOATS, staying in that shape for the rest of eternity. | [20:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah. | [20:51] |
| mod6: | <+mircea_popescu> either it builds in its own independent tree, or else it declares an antecedent in the trb tree. << so in the latter part here, should my 'foobar.vpatch' that just adds one file without any antecedents or descendants actually inherit an antecedent, in this case 'genesis.vpatch' ? just trying to understand ... | [20:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | sure. | [20:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | all patches to trb tree must refer to an antecedent in the trb tree. no exceptions. if "nothing comes to mind", genesis is a fine default. | [20:53] |
| asciilifeform: | btw mircea_popescu's criticism of shiva-genesis was 100% deserved, it ~does in fact~ logically depend on trb, but did not indicate said dependence vtronically | [20:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform this is one of those cases of "sit on side of sanity ask what can get away with". | [20:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | just because it works(tm) ie could be got away with is no good reason to actually try. | [20:53] |
| mod6: | so say we go with that... that 'foobar.vpatch' just inherits an antecedent 'genesis.vpatch' how does one distinguish between 'foobar.vpatch' as a root and 'genesis.vpatch' as a root without additional criteria? | [20:54] |
| asciilifeform: | setting up a wholly artificial dependence also rubbed me wrong | [20:54] |
| asciilifeform: | hence the choice | [20:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | but an important point here i must stress is the COGNITIVE LOAD of a v tree. these aren't mechanical "oh, it changed x file so it goes with x". you think, as the author, and exactly in the manner of scoring wot members : what should this item be anchored on ? | [20:54] |
| mod6: | both of these have all inputs as 'false' -- hard for the code to tell which should be witch at face value without something "and it has at least one descendant" | [20:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | v links add value which couldn't have been made by "an ai" | [20:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform an item can exist in two copies : as its independent tree AND ALSO as a patch imported in a project. | [20:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | trb-shiva should be trb-shiva if shiva-genesis also exists nothing is hurt thereby. | [20:55] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: recall, i actually had a wholly separate shiva-bridge | [20:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | yea | [20:56] |
| asciilifeform: | (the reason for which, was to demonstrate that shiva was tinyscheme largely as-found-in-the-forest) | [20:56] |
| mod6: | the main reason that I bring this up 'foobar.vpatch' is being dumped out of the flow and causing problems since i've implemented the axiom of 'a vpatch can only be in the flow if all of its antecedents are present.' which causes a problem in this case as it gets chucked out as an orphan. | [21:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | should be rebased. | [21:02] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: if your vtron throws out a valid, signed-by-wot patch that has 0 antecedents, it is broken | [21:03] |
| asciilifeform: | ( mircea_popescu's dictum of 'have 1 root' cannot be enforced mechanically, vtron has no business deciding arbitrarily which root is 'the' root) | [21:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [21:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | it should respond with "broken tree, fix seals" error and not press. | [21:04] |
| mod6: | ok. what should the vtron do with these extra roots? place them at the end of the flow as leafs? | [21:04] |
| asciilifeform: | cultivating a project with multiple roots may be bad form, but vtron ~must~ display properly | [21:04] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: should do 100% what mine did. | [21:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, it should just fail the press. | [21:04] |
| asciilifeform: | display both flows correctly, press if asked. | [21:04] |
| asciilifeform: | (and follow the correct sequence to the respective root if pressing) | [21:05] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i disagree that multiple-roots should be a mechanical eggog. | [21:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | why ? | [21:05] |
| asciilifeform: | it is a logically valid, if stylistically undesirable, state | [21:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is not logically valid. | [21:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | the concept of "a press" towards more than one root is actually devoid of content. | [21:06] |
| asciilifeform: | but you can never do this | [21:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | besides the point. | [21:06] |
| asciilifeform: | you pick a node to press to. | [21:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes. | [21:06] |
| asciilifeform: | it cannot be part of two disconnected flows. | [21:06] |
| asciilifeform: | this is impossible to arrange even deliberately. | [21:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | more than one root === disconnected flows. | [21:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is what teh words mean. | [21:06] |
| asciilifeform: | yes but all points on the graph are unambiguously pressable to. | [21:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | nevertheless. | [21:07] |
| asciilifeform: | this is what i meant by 'logically valid.' it isn't a '1 == 2' | [21:07] |
| asciilifeform: | it's euclid's 5th. | [21:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is, yes. | [21:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | i mean, it is a 1=2. | [21:07] |
| asciilifeform: | i get that mircea_popescu really, ~really~ hates multirooted vtrees. this doesn't make'em '1==2' | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | they don't crash the algo. | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | not when it is written correctly (i.e. as i did) | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | they don't lead to unexpected 'wtf' | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | thing -- behaves. | [21:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, i get it that you think you did, except you didn't, because, note this, BECAUSE it didn't crash your algo. | [21:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | vtron that presses a multi-root tree is, by that very fact, a broken implementation. | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | i get it, mircea_popescu really hates blue colour, and thinks that merc engine should light eggog light an' stop immediately if it detects blue paint on chassis | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | that dun make blue paint an eggog. | [21:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | im not going to go into debugging your metaphors. | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | you NEVER press 'a multiroot tree.' you press ~one node~, which has ~one root~ | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | every node in a tree with 1,001 roots, flows back to ~one~ particular root. | [21:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | sigh. fine. | [21:10] |
| asciilifeform: | and i entirely agree with mircea_popescu that working with such a thing is terrifyingly poor discipline. | [21:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | vtron that presses a tree containing more than one genesis is, by that very fact, a broken implementation. | [21:10] |
| asciilifeform: | how many other stylistic eggogs should v enforce ? tabs-v-spaces? | [21:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is not a matter of "style", it is a matter of identity. | [21:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | the project is named after its tree's genesis, and conceptually exists as and only as descendancy from that genesis. | [21:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | speshul snowflakes need not apply they may be own trees, or leaves in extant trees, or not at all. | [21:12] |
| asciilifeform: | in the case of tinyscheme, i dealt with (or at least thought i was dealing with) the case where two separate bloodlines merge. | [21:12] |
| asciilifeform: | imho this is a distinct item and oughta remain indicable. | [21:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | there is no merge in that sense. | [21:13] |
| asciilifeform: | they fuck and have 1 child. | [21:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | wife changes her name, becomes daughter of her husband's father. | [21:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | like it or not, nobody asks her. | [21:13] |
| asciilifeform: | but this was not wife, but concubine | [21:13] |
| asciilifeform: | i specifically asked to memorialize the fact that i did not write tinyscheme. | [21:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | no concubines allowed. | [21:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't care. | [21:14] |
| asciilifeform: | this was, recall, before mircea_popescu's gordian knot cut of 'use multiple keys' | [21:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | not sure it wasn't pretty sure that was always there, but yes i guess before the expliciting | [21:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, not like patches can't be rebased into conformancy. | [21:14] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu also tends to ignore the very real risk of 'no concubines, no children' | [21:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | children are not a goal. | [21:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | corectness, and corectness only, is the goal. if it produces no children so be it. | [21:15] |
| asciilifeform: | this is a consistend position. | [21:15] |
| asciilifeform: | *consistent | [21:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is also the only safe one. | [21:15] |
| asciilifeform: | to elaborate on the 'no children' bit, extreme strictness does not leave us with 'either correct software! XOR stone knives and bearskins and NO software!' but rather with 'massive pile of old broken software' | [21:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is, after all, why we made v in the first place. | [21:20] |
| asciilifeform: | aha. and one of the old plagues i aimed to cure, with v, was the 'fog of war' surrounding authorship. | [21:21] |
| asciilifeform: | where 'everything' is written by 'everyone and no one' | [21:21] |
| asciilifeform: | and so i remain skeptical of vtronic practices that obscure authorship, for whatever otherwise excellent reasons. | [21:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | but understand that the only correct solution is to steal the natives babies and give them roman/spanish names. | [21:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | there is no such "oh, we'll represent local-batshit in our system" | [21:21] |
| asciilifeform: | you give'em spanish names but they live in slave quarters. | [21:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | historically this isn't so accurate, everyone lived in the ~same shit. | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | eh even modern mexico, the actual-people-people are white (as white as spain, at least) | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | slave-fucking was a sometimes-thing there, evidently. | [21:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | to put it in more direct terms : remove fog of war around authorship yes, but this can ONLY be done through denying the franchise to anyone outside of wot. only wot people can be authors of things, so in this sense anything, tinyscheme included, until and unless its meatspace authors fess up, is literally "found in forest" and will have to bear an actual man's name | [21:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's no way to meaningfully assert "this leaf was made by $somenonpeople". | [21:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | i caqn readily see why this irritates your otherwise very well developed and entirely respectable respect for knowledge. | [21:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | nevertheless, i am saying, flatly, that this isn't a knowledge. as per lieberman. | [21:25] |
| asciilifeform: | if there is literally no way to memorialize the fact that i took $item off a dead nazi, or dug up from sunken atlantis, rather than wrote it personally -- said item will have to be done without. (unless someone else in your wot does the imho monumentally idiotic act of 'adopting it as own child') | [21:25] |
| asciilifeform: | imho for no c program is this a safe (in terms of preserving one's honour) act. | [21:25] |
| asciilifeform: | satoshi's liquishit is no child of mine. | [21:26] |
| asciilifeform: | nor tinyscheme, etc. | [21:26] |
| asciilifeform: | if i can't codify 'за что купил за то продал' -- we have problem. | [21:26] |
| asciilifeform: | ( as per http://deedbot.org/deed-378272-1.txt ) | [21:28] |
| asciilifeform: | note that we did ~same thing for trb genesis. | [21:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | the concept of identity in the fiat world has come under scrutiny every single time. | [21:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | see the discussion of boeck's alleged "contributions" etc. | [21:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | there isn't two different someones out there in a reliable sense. | [21:30] |
| asciilifeform: | shiva(tinyscheme) is not a wife, it is a cow. it is quite possible to have a house without a cow. if you do have a cow, it lives in separate structure, and nobody will need to be reminded that it is not a wife. | [21:31] |
| asciilifeform: | there must remain the option of keeping cow. | [21:31] |
| mod6: | i think that cow aught to be rebased perhaps | [21:31] |
| asciilifeform: | mod6: rebased how | [21:31] |
| mod6: | it either goes in the tree or it does not exist. | [21:31] |
| asciilifeform: | i ain't equating, e.g., tinyscheme, to works from my own pen. | [21:32] |
| asciilifeform: | ain't happening. | [21:32] |
| asciilifeform: | and, again, 'no cow -- no milk.' the alternative to shiva is not 'clean code from reliable people in wot' but the old satoshi abortion in continued use. | [21:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | this wedge will not prevail. i'll do without any milk, forever. | [21:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | the odds of something being imported to break the structure because hey, convenience are nil. | [21:34] |
| asciilifeform: | except mircea_popescu is not doing without milk, he (and i, and the lot of us) is drinking the pus from syphilitic whore. | [21:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | there is no such benefit as "milk" here. | [21:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform that wedge will also not prevail. | [21:34] |
| asciilifeform: | why does trb-genesis get special treatment in mircea_popescu's scheme ? | [21:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | special, how ? | [21:34] |
| asciilifeform: | in the sense that it is of heathen birth, but nevertheless memorialized as an origin and not subsumed | [21:35] |
| asciilifeform: | and mircea_popescu would not hold any of the signers answerable for its defects | [21:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | mod6 i expect the correct solution going forward is : a) for someone (maybe trbf ?) to make a Wildman McFucksticks key which b) will be used to sign a compliant rebase of tinyscheme / anything else anyone finds in the woods and wants to sign. | [21:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | it can even be a collective key, perhaps not in the sense of actually sharing the privkey, but perhaps trbf/holder signs items at request with the understanding it's all foundling crap anyway | [21:36] |
| asciilifeform: | probably this is the only consistent and long-term-sane method. | [21:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [21:36] |
| asciilifeform: | i also expect that (at least if traditional bitcoin continues to function interruptedly) promisetronic 'we the wise men agreed that hash H represents this tarball which existed in 2012...' will become entirely unnecessary and hence dispensed with in favour of actual pointers to deedbot | [21:38] |
| asciilifeform: | *uninterruptedly | [21:38] |
| asciilifeform: | though it still doesn't hurt to remember that deedbot (or any similar scheme) can only prove ~floors~ and never ~ceilings~ | [21:39] |
| asciilifeform: | no matter how it is made. | [21:39] |
| asciilifeform: | (i.e. you can show that $item is ~no older~ than B blocks, but never ~no younger~) | [21:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | indeed, this is a temporary fix we find selves in | [21:41] |
| mod6: | heheh. this is complicated huh. | [21:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | mod6 kinda the thing with prototyping, we end up with redesigns | [21:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | "design clarifications" to be proper eh | [21:41] |
| asciilifeform: | that 'days of rage' piece is monumental. | [21:44] |
| asciilifeform: | mega-recommended. | [21:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah. | [21:44] |
| mod6: | I appreciate both of your thoughts and considerations on the subject matter. | [21:46] |
| asciilifeform: | yw mod6 | [21:48] |
| asciilifeform: | lemme know if you need a hand with the algo (though imho my original proggy was pretty readable) | [21:49] |
| mod6: | Much appreciated. Other than this problem with the roots at hand, I think mine is in pretty great shape. The implementation of the all-antecedents axiom creates a bit of a slant here for what I have. But I'll do some digging into what your v99 looks like again and see if I can't get something resolved with that. | [21:52] |
| asciilifeform: | 'rage' commentz also interesting, in places: | [22:04] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Myself I started to drift out of SDS when martial arts training became obligatory. When weapons training was required that was the end for me. What sent me away was not so much the notion of using a gun for a political end as that the providers of the guns were people who until five minutes previous could not fundraise a nickel bag for a party. Suddenly they had weapons, unlimited weapons, nice | [22:04] |
| asciilifeform: | weapons, and an infinite supply of ammunition for training purposes. If they burned out an M60 by running it too hot there was another M60 ready to go. And a little farm in Wisconsin to use as a training facility. All the farmers in the vicinity could and did hear the M60 and the BAR, so could the local police, somehow in spite of every local looking daggers at the hippies when they passed through | [22:04] |
| asciilifeform: | town there was no problem ever. Someone had arranged all this and it was not the Episcopal Church. Of course the two honchos who ran our chapter were both later exposed as pedophiles and FBI.' | [22:04] |
| asciilifeform: | (if unverifiable.) | [22:04] |
| asciilifeform: | 'Let me tell you about young Bernardine. She was a strikingly attractive woman. Beautiful clear olive skin. Busty and she showed it off all the time. And usually in high black boots. Not working class engineer boots, shiny black fetish gear. Have you seen the Weather movie? Through the entire “underground” period she wore that gear. They were “underground” on the Upper West Side, in the | [22:05] |
| asciilifeform: | Columbia University neighborhood, where lots and lots of people knew who they were. And miraculously the FBI could not find them.' | [22:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | seems believable. | [22:09] |
| asciilifeform: | quite believable. my understanding is that '65s-'75 usa was undergoing a 'british empire' moment where 'youngest sons' of the elite had 'lack of breathing room' and went uppity, and threw a bit of tantrum before being reabsorbed, bill ayers style, into specially-created 'church' bureaucracies | [22:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | anwyay, the farmer's faith in the functional ability of their institutions, fbi or whatever, is entirely misplaced. about half my friends throughout my entire ro period were "underground" or "on the lam" for that matter the italians recently arrested that dude with the cesar ciphers ? he was "hiding" for 30 years by then | [22:10] |
| asciilifeform: | part of it is the 'uncatchable joe' aspect | [22:11] |
| asciilifeform: | (very easy to 'underground' when no one is hunting) | [22:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform aha. but the article makes a very solid point : the current "start-up culture" is EXACTLY this. as discussed in the trilema "sv pedos" piece and ailleurs. | [22:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform nothing is easier than http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121016 "I didn't ask the girl if she thinks I'm any good or not. This is neither her business nor something within her purview. I asked the girl if she thinks she has it in her to try and survive once the world (WHICH I OWN) is no longer friendly to her. I didn't ask the DA for his evaluation of me. I couldn't give less of | [22:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | a shit what some random bureaucrat thinks on any topic. I asked the DA if he thinks he has it in him to survive once the world which I control is no longer tolerant of him." | [22:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | easiest decision a bureaucrat ever made. | [22:13] |
| asciilifeform: | of course we get to hear from the successful mircea_popescus, rather than the 'emperor nortons' who were SWATed like flies. | [22:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | emperor norton died in his bed. well, after a fashion. | [22:14] |
| asciilifeform: | well yes. but picture him transported, somehow, to obummer's usa. | [22:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway. it's a discussion of history not a proposal. woe to the apprentice wizard who fancies himself a wizard on the strength of having read the actual wizard's youth journal. | [22:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | (contrary to the deeply desired implication reflected in the name, there's no relation between a wizard and an apprentice wizard.) | [22:16] |
| asciilifeform: | apprentice is more of a walking spermatozoid than anything else. | [22:16] |
| asciilifeform: | 'I read somewhere that whoever was calling for the most violence was who Bernardine latched onto and fucked silly. No violence, no pussy. ' | [22:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [22:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | fancy the inept seinfeld boys of the time, trying to find the secret rubik cube configuration | [22:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | "we hacked bernardine! it's X!" | [22:23] |
| asciilifeform: | smoke moar, waft away the plague miasmas. | [22:24] |
| asciilifeform: | get married, grow taller! | [22:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | apparently it works on some people!!! | [22:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | ben_vulpes on consideration piece not really worth translating it was a short intro for clueless ro audience. read eric berne &co instead. | [22:40] |
| adlai: | the bug is calling it a 'root', it's actually a leaf. the "root" of the relevant patch tree is the node you're trying to press. the "second root" which makes less sense (but should still not eggog) is "press two nodes" | [23:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | eh shuddup. | [23:45] |
| * adlai | was gonna update on 'homework' but complies with sir's request | [23:49] |
Category: Logs
