Forum logs for 19 Sep 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
ben_vulpes: the underlying joke of 'abject failure' is that was never even remotely a purpose [00:39]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "what dat" is a pregnant americanism, as for the second sentence, you need a rewrite to parse? [00:42]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/paxful-executives-arrested-with-oodles-of-drugs/ << Qntra - Paxful "Executives" Arrested With Oodles Of Drugs [00:56]
mircea_popescu: i do. [00:57]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "for as another aspiring businessman once wrote before his life had become unmanageable" << nothing can happen before had. you mean before became ? [01:00]
mircea_popescu: "denotes a quanity" also. [01:00]
BingoBoingo: ty fxd [01:03]
mircea_popescu: *thumbsup* [01:16]
BingoBoingo: !~step10 [01:33]
jhvh1: 10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. [01:33]
adlai: BingoBoingo: also in the footnote, 'establish' needs an -ing or -ment [04:19]
adlai: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-17-sep-2016#2170986 << that's a very short day! also, the 2nd F doesn't make much sense, i was pointing something out to phf specifically. [04:21]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 20:13 mircea_popescu: so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing". [04:21]
adlai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544387 << nothing near as exciting, i knocked an office toy (magnetic paperclip people) off a doctor's desk while proving a point, which in his book counted as "violence!!!" then i left the meeting, because they were wasting my time. sufficient cause, in this wonderful medical system, for an involuntary commitment. as one friend interpreted: "pissed off the wrong people" [04:29]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 19:35 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#546 << wait, did you bust some dude's face ? [04:29]
ben_vulpes: i remember trying to make a point to a man who wanted to lock me up. [04:35]
ben_vulpes: i go for camo and not being noticed these days. [04:36]
mircea_popescu: adlai how do you justify sticking around to yourself in that context ? [08:45]
* mircea_popescu also remembers wanting to make points to inept bureaucrats with delusions of self importance. their whereabouts are unknown hence. [08:46]
adlai: mircea_popescu: "justify sticking around"? i'm not sure i understand what you're asking [10:05]
mircea_popescu: would you reference logs like sane people ? i'm not going to grep for the sake of extracting context for your lines. [10:13]
adlai: it's literally the second-to-last thing you typed... but here you go! http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-19#1544790 [10:15]
a111: Logged on 2016-09-19 12:45 mircea_popescu: adlai how do you justify sticking around to yourself in that context ? [10:15]
BingoBoingo: ty fxd [10:15]
mod6: mornin' [10:16]
mircea_popescu: oh! sorry. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: adlai what i mean is, if that happened to me, i'd have simply left. permanently. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: how do you justify, eg, not joining the palestines in bombing the place, to yourself ? [10:16]
mircea_popescu: seems it must burn. [10:17]
adlai: aha. well, honestly i thought at the time that i'd just stormed out permanently, only found out hours later that i'd been turned into a fugitive [10:17]
mircea_popescu: so ? [10:17]
mircea_popescu: what, is it helplessnes, "oh i could never get away" ? [10:18]
adlai: it seemed like less effort to go through whatever process they wanted. i didn't realize at the start that it would last more than a couple days / week. [10:19]
adlai: and... i don't think every single conflict situation warrants a declaration of war. sometimes you need to fight, but sometimes you need to regroup first. [10:20]
adlai: several of the other people in the ward had 'run away' after a home visit, and got brought back by "men in white suits" [10:23]
adlai: maybe i'll put up a bigger fight next time, although i'd rather pick smarter fights. [10:23]
mircea_popescu: well "every conflict situation". what exactly can be salvaged once it's not safe to blow pins off a table ? [10:26]
mircea_popescu: derps dun wanna extend the personal space. has exactly nothing to do with you, your choices being either burn the derps down or die. [10:27]
mircea_popescu: but as i don't figure you much for the "bitch, you will clean my boots or wear a new kippah anchor point, right in your fucking forehead" type, i'd have expected you'd just left. [10:29]
mircea_popescu: what exactly has such place left to offer ? [10:29]
adlai: ok i see, by 'sticking around', and 'left', you mean leaving the country? [10:29]
mircea_popescu: not just the country. the whole thing. tell your mother she's a dumb whore, tell your father he's a total fucking idiot and you know fewer people you despise more, burn down everything in hebrew you own and never mention the accursed shithole ever again. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: except maybe visit once iran finally glasses it. [10:30]
adlai: socialist states can be bled from the inside, too [10:32]
mircea_popescu: it's a cultural space, like any other. just like any other, it has to satisfy a minimum bar to be allowed to continue to exist. it has failed to pay its capitation, and so consequently it has no furhter place in the world. [10:32]
mircea_popescu: well sure, i'm not specifically interested in the execution as a matter of detail. [10:33]
mircea_popescu: just used obvious example for sake of obviousness. [10:33]
adlai: out of curiosity, where would you recommend going, once i accumulate the means to do so on my own terms? you don't seem too pleased with your homeland or your current abode [10:38]
adlai: inner-mp quotes/paraphrases real-mp: "somewhere your girlfriend would never imagine visiting, but the stripper you met last night can't wait to go" [10:39]
adlai: my memory is insufficiently content-addressable to locate the exact article but i'm quite sure it's trilema [10:40]
mircea_popescu: but my dear man, how would i recommend ~for you~ ? [10:42]
mircea_popescu: pick something you like. [10:42]
mircea_popescu: or at least, that you're curious about. [10:42]
mircea_popescu: i will say however this "rezistenta prin cultura" / "socialist states can be bled from the inside, too" is exclusively for the very strong, ie powerful, ie dudes with own arsenal and harem. it's self-delusion, and of the worst sort, to think vulnerable young male could accomplish or should attempt such wonder. [10:44]
adlai: fair enough [10:45]
mircea_popescu: needs a very strong, and well reinforced, and old identity to be able to masquerade externally. take your examples from biology : viri manage to bleed the cell from the inside but it's risky business. mitochondria similarly thought - and look at it today! [10:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and bleeding'em from outside (for the sake of argument positing that they ~have~ an outside) is available to weak/poor/haremless/etc. ?? [10:52]
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ << Trilema - How to participate in the affairs of The Most Serene Republic [10:54]
thestringpuller: LOL! Coinbase bot hacked -> http://steamcommunity.com/groups/keyvendornet#announcements/detail/825672215667170249 [11:02]
thestringpuller: "Our payment processor Coinbase.com was exploited and all Bitcoin and keys were stolen from the KeyVendor bot. These total to about $15,000. This was not, however, a direct security issue with the bot, but rather with Coinbase's merchant services." [11:02]
shinohai: run moar coinbase [11:09]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, 'In the last two weeks many security professionals have praised Apple for reacting lightning fast to the PEGASUS threat that has been actively exploited in the wild. This praise was given because the parties involved kept samples from independent 3rd party researchers and did not reveal any detailed information about the kernel vulnerabilities involved to the public. Without this information the public simply assumed t [11:34]
asciilifeform: hat the PEGASUS surveillance malware was using completely new kernel vulnerabilities to takeover iOS devices and that Apple heard about these problems for the first time mid August 2016. Unfortunately after having reversed what kernel vulnerability has been used by the PEGASUS surveillance malware a completely different picture emerges: The kernel vulnerability known as CVE-2016-4656 was only still in the code because Apple patched C [11:34]
asciilifeform: VE-2016-1828 in May 2016 without doing a security review of the code in question. In only 20 lines of code THREE codepaths existed that allowed UAF. Apple fixed only one of those paths although the other release() methods were clearly right next to it in the code...' [11:34]
asciilifeform: ( http://sektioneins.de/en/blog/16-09-05-pegasus-ios-kernel-vulnerability-explained-part-2.html ) [11:34]
asciilifeform: ^ kernel privesc found recently in crapple's entire product line. 'fixed' stuxnet-style. [11:34]
thestringpuller: mod6: considering the above and your research gathered via the #bitotter project, did you ever discover a reasonable mobile device? or are they all shit. [11:36]
mod6: they're all shit, basically [11:46]
asciilifeform: not interchangeable shit, though. [11:47]
asciilifeform: in practice, typical turdroid box resembles housewife's winblows 98 - crawling with popup maggots, 'mysteriously' slow, bristling with adware, etc. [11:48]
asciilifeform: while crapple box, with its various familiar faults, chugs along more or less eternally in the condition it left the crate [11:49]
shinohai: oh heya mod6 .... new vpatched worked for me and stripped binary accordingly. [11:49]
asciilifeform: (either until the iron mysteriously fails, two weeks out of warranty, or for decades) [11:49]
thestringpuller: crapple does the whole "planned obsolescence" bs [11:50]
asciilifeform: crapple box is quite comparable to a stainless steel prison toilet - it resists whatever attempt at modification, either by user or whatever shitware he syphilitically encounters [11:50]
thestringpuller: it's all downhill for your crapply compy's as "updates" come out [11:50]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there are not so many vendors that patch old shit eternally [11:51]
asciilifeform: and the incidence of such a thing at a konsooomer-friendly price point is ~0. [11:51]
thestringpuller: tell that to El Capitan update that miraculously made my work computer slower [11:52]
asciilifeform: lel, the victi^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers complain when you don't patch, and when you do... [11:53]
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/09/19/book-of-mormon/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Book of Mormon. [11:57]
mod6: shinohai: nice! thanks for testing that. [12:04]
mod6: I'll conduct a bunch more testing tonight. I think this one looks a lot better with just having one 'deps' dir. [12:04]
shinohai: Yeah it is waaaaay cleaner [12:04]
shinohai: But I'll do 2-3 more throughout the day, letcha know results later. [12:05]
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel [12:08]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [12:08]
gabriel_laddel: I have two machines connected by an ethernet cable that can ping one another after I setup ip addresses on them via "ip ad add 10.0.0.10/24 dev eth0" and "ip ad add 10.0.0.20/24". [12:09]
gabriel_laddel: Am currently trying to send a string from A to B (must be over the ethernet cable) so as to make networked CLIM. [12:10]
gabriel_laddel: If anyone knows the netcat command that would do this, I'm all ears. [12:10]
gabriel_laddel: (does not have to be netcat, happy to use anything so long as I can eventually migrate it into my lisp process) [12:10]
asciilifeform: nc -u localhost 1337 [12:13]
asciilifeform: on listening end [12:13]
asciilifeform: echo -n "foo" | nc -u -w1 your.box.ip.addr 1337 [12:13]
asciilifeform: to transmit. [12:13]
asciilifeform: (if you're using a crossover snake between two nics there is no conceivable reason to use anything but udp datagram) [12:14]
asciilifeform: supposing your strings are reasonably short, gabriel_laddel . [12:14]
asciilifeform: < 65,507 byte. [12:14]
trinque: why aren't you just opening a socket in lisp? [12:14]
asciilifeform: trinque: i'm assuming he doesn't want to use a library, hence the netcat [12:15]
trinque: I don't see how shelling out is superior [12:15]
asciilifeform: it isn't [12:15]
gabriel_laddel: I'm perfectly happy to use a lisp socket, but if I can't do it via netcat, I don't think it'll work via lisp [12:15]
asciilifeform: trinque: presumably he wants to test with bare hands, etc. [12:15]
gabriel_laddel: also wtf now my machines cannot ping one another.. [12:15]
trinque: might want to study networking basics before writing another line of code. [12:17]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i'm fresh out of telekinesis pills, cannot debug your nic... [12:17]
gabriel_laddel: just a minute, have rebooted both machines. [12:18]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: I can easily connect one lisp to another over wifi, but want to force it over an ethernet cable [12:18]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: idk what basics I'd be studying? [12:18]
trinque: the route command for one [12:20]
trinque: also how to up and down nics [12:20]
trinque: this "the system is icky and I will only learn enough about it to infect it with my own" is precisely the mentality that has *kept* lisp coders as refugees in foreign operating systems. [12:23]
gabriel_laddel: That's nonsense. [12:23]
trinque: oh is it [12:23]
gabriel_laddel: Lisp coders are refugees because they act like little girls. [12:24]
gabriel_laddel: It is a revolt against G-d and all that is good and true that there does not exist a platform, even on UNIX that one can buy for lisp development. [12:25]
gabriel_laddel: This should have been taken care of years ago = [12:25]
trinque: read moar logs [12:25]
trinque: particularly the recent lisp machine thread [12:26]
gabriel_laddel: I'm up to date on the logs, and respectfully disagree. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#85 << yes. as per the mitochondria example, merely not being there significantly bleeds it. [12:27]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [14:52:01] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: and bleeding'em from outside (for the sake of argument positing that they ~have~ an outside) is available to weak/poor/haremless/etc. ?? [12:27]
mircea_popescu: very dubious that you'll be able to outdo that from inside. [12:27]
asciilifeform: if gabriel_laddel recently uploaded a commonlisp that doesn't behave like a retarded child when, e.g., socket shits itself 10,000time/sec, i must've missed..? [12:27]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#86 << if anyone can think of stuff to add lemme know. [12:27]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [14:54:32] <deedbot> http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ << Trilema - How to participate in the affairs of The Most Serene Republic [12:27]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider emplacing the thing into the #t subjline [12:28]
asciilifeform: imho it belongs there. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: lessee [12:28]
mod6: shinohai: thanks for doing that! [12:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform good point. i moved all the topic links in there. [12:31]
asciilifeform: neato. [12:31]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#90 << the trend is going to continue separation between "soviet truth" and truth is uncurable once introduced. [12:33]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [15:34:12] <asciilifeform> in other lulz, 'In the last two weeks many security professionals have praised Apple for reacting lightning fast to the PEGASUS threat that has been actively exploited in the wild. This praise was given because the parties involved kept samples from independent 3rd party researchers and did not reveal any detailed information about the kernel [12:33]
scriba: vulnerabilities involved to the public. Without this information the public simply assumed t [12:33]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: with the example you've provided I send the "foo" string and nothing occurs on the other side. If I remove the "-u" option from nc, (UNKNOWN) [10.0.0.20] 8002 (?) : Connection refused [12:35]
gabriel_laddel: substitute localhost, same thing [12:35]
gabriel_laddel: are there any decent irc channels for this sort of thing aside from ##networking? [12:35]
mircea_popescu: not afaik. [12:36]
gabriel_laddel: Also, oddly enough, ping returns "Network is unreachable" after sending 20ish messages, on both ends. [12:36]
asciilifeform: ahahahaha [12:36]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: you might have the other version of netcat [12:37]
asciilifeform: thing is maintained by braindamaged folks, and so you might have to: [12:37]
asciilifeform: nc -l -u -p 1337 [12:37]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: see? [12:37]
asciilifeform: on the listening end. [12:37]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: equery m netcat outputs what for you? [12:37]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i just tested the thing i pasted from my notes, on the box i'm presently sitting at, and it did not work. but this latter one - did. [12:37]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: this is where ALL of my time gets wasted. Trying to figure out what fking flag to send some unix BS that should be clearly documented for THE MACHINE I AM WORKING ON. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: !!up gabriel_laddel [12:38]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [12:38]
gabriel_laddel: locally, in a manual. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: welcome to everyone's life. [12:38]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: 110-r9 [12:38]
gabriel_laddel: ty [12:38]
phf: it is clearly documented, in a man page [12:39]
asciilifeform: lel phf [12:39]
gabriel_laddel: while we're here - does anyone know of a script that downloads the whole of the gentoo documentation? [12:39]
mircea_popescu: i would expect it's in the official republican gentoo package ? [12:39]
gabriel_laddel: phf: either I cannot read, or the man pages are inadequate. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: which iirc alf maintained. [12:40]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i maintain a delousing spray strictly. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: sort-of maintains. [12:40]
gabriel_laddel: phf: something as simple as "network some computers together with ethernet and observe the sexpr from one draw some stuff on another" should work 100% of the time and be clearly documented. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#137 << at least he's up to date with the latest in computing technology from windows/apple/mit etc [12:41]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [16:18:08] <gabriel_laddel> just a minute, have rebooted both machines. [12:41]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: the scary thing is that it worked. [12:41]
phf: he's having these problems, ~because~ reboot is his debugging strategy [12:41]
mircea_popescu: i'm sure a lot can be done to bleed the computer socialism from inside. [12:41]
shinohai: "at least he's up to date with the latest in computing technology from windows/apple/mit etc" <<< lolz [12:41]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: no voodoo here, to turn on the autocrossover you gotta reset the nic. but on sane os this DOES NOT REQUIRE REBOOT omgwtf [12:42]
asciilifeform: ifconfig cunt0 down [12:42]
asciilifeform: ifconfig cunt0 up [12:42]
gabriel_laddel: Thank you. That is both clear and helpful. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: wait, literally ? cunt-0 ?! [12:42]
mircea_popescu: this is oddly appropriate. [12:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how am i to know what it is on his box. [12:42]
asciilifeform: textbook illustration [12:42]
mircea_popescu: but if you think about it... [12:43]
mircea_popescu: that's how they reproduce, right ? [12:43]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: aha! it worked [12:43]
* shinohai renames his interfaces to cunt0 [12:43]
gabriel_laddel: Thank you. A tsmr~ ghetto with its own CLIM-web internet is now possible. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel ironically, turns out trinque did have a point eh. [12:44]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: about what? [12:44]
gabriel_laddel: err, mircea_popescu about what? [12:44]
mircea_popescu: networking basics lel. [12:44]
gabriel_laddel: for what platform? [12:44]
mircea_popescu: well, i think ~all unixen reset their cunt the same way. [12:44]
gabriel_laddel: how am I to know what documentation is or is not valid on various UNIXen, bsds etc [12:44]
mircea_popescu: at least never met one that didn't. [12:44]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if you get tired of having to toggle the nic to autocrossover, get out a pair of scissors and make an actual crossover snake [12:45]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: the only way to learn that is by aptly named brute force. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: this much is true. [12:45]
gabriel_laddel: self-documenting hardware/software is the ~ bare minimum ~ of civilized computing. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: but yes, your dream of "manpage magically adequate to the system it's on" is not entirely without dreampower. [12:46]
gabriel_laddel: dood whatever, I'm running this example between two masamune machines and adding it to the masamune manual. [12:46]
gabriel_laddel: when I run into the friend with another masamune machine to we can now have a networked CLIM party [12:47]
mircea_popescu: so far other than the theory of lisp, there's no known way to do this other than "somone does the bruteforce for you on an exact copy of your machine" [12:47]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: that is correct. Hence enforcing a SINGLE hardware platform from which to generalize. [12:47]
trinque: in related lul, I installed gentoo on this here laptop this weekend, and promptly removed it after x11 terminals couldn't be launched because /dev/pts is a magical fake filesystem with apparently myriad knobs and switches. [12:47]
* trinque can't wait until masamune realizes that google fucked gentoo into a million pieces [12:48]
mircea_popescu: "civilisation" begets totalitarianism you say ? who could have predicted! [12:48]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: my masamune builds are all from the old masamune. [12:48]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: it does not interact with google [12:48]
asciilifeform: trinque: pts isn't a gentoo-specific ball of shit [12:48]
gabriel_laddel: or the mirrors or or or [12:48]
trinque: asciilifeform: no but whichever gentoo init script or something wasn't bolting it on correctly [12:48]
trinque: and I cannot be arsed to care anymore [12:49]
trinque: openbsd has a proper static file dev [12:49]
phf: and we're back to naggum maintaining his own emacs [12:49]
asciilifeform: trinque: care to document the crater ? [12:49]
mircea_popescu: phf not exactly back, but only in the narrow strict sense that we are not alone. [12:49]
gabriel_laddel: ^ [12:49]
trinque: asciilifeform: was "get_pty" something about out of ptys, where sysctl was set to max 4096 [12:49]
asciilifeform: thus far, every time i sit down and make a gentoo box, more or less ~yearly since '06 or so, it ... works [12:49]
asciilifeform: and i don't get any of these mysterious wtf's. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: trinque you see how horribru your error reporting is ? ?? ??? [12:50]
trinque: musl? [12:50]
asciilifeform: trinque: nope. i've yet to try mussolating it [12:50]
phf: well, gabriel_laddel doesn't have the patience to grok the system he's hosting on from the user perspective, how's he going to upkeep it from the dev perspective? [12:50]
trinque: asciilifeform: they broke musl [12:50]
trinque: I last built my musl recipe in jan, worked fine [12:50]
asciilifeform: trinque: if i had a working mussolinic gentoo, i'd never have cooked up 'rotor' [12:50]
asciilifeform: because it would not be then necessary [12:50]
gabriel_laddel: phf: by selling them and paying other people to do it [12:50]
mircea_popescu: phf in his defense, nobody has any fucking patience to fuck with computers. if anyone did, they wouldn't be learning how to program. [12:51]
phf: you mean jackdaniel? ) [12:51]
gabriel_laddel: phf: heh [12:51]
gabriel_laddel: phf: did you see the screenshot of the CLIM gui I wrote around portage? [12:51]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if you think such a thing is remotely a good idea, and that the crud will not irreparably spill out from under the 'skin', i got a bridge to sell ya. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#146 << he IS up to date on the logs huh. [12:52]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [16:25:37] <gabriel_laddel> It is a revolt against G-d and all that is good and true that there does not exist a platform, even on UNIX that one can buy for lisp development. [12:52]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> wait, literally ? cunt-0 ?! << On my box: hole0 [12:52]
BingoBoingo: Next fiddling may become ass0 [12:53]
mircea_popescu: you people are way cooler than me. i still got eth [12:53]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: the purpose of masamune is to provide funds for the republic (by selling them) and a development platform from which to build new hardware. [12:53]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: didja sell enough to buy a postbox yet ? [12:54]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel dun mind the esteemed lords, they just hate young men for the obvious reason. [12:54]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: nope. [12:54]
asciilifeform: eh. [12:54]
gabriel_laddel: nothing was going on this weekend! [12:54]
asciilifeform: if gabriel_laddel does not care to listen to asciilifeform's observation, it is strictly his own problem. but here it is, for phreeeeee: you cannot abstract against broken software, with other software. or at all. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: actually afaik this is formally proven. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: (the "with software" part, i mean) [12:57]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: look, we can and do hack around and get things done in broken software everyday. If an environment exists in which one can WITH A SINGLE PROCEDURE CALL write the "world" out to a USB/CD/whatever it should be a plenty stable platform for whatever computations are required for new hardware. [12:57]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: and then we are stuck with the pile of hack. [12:57]
asciilifeform: which the next gabriel_laddel tries to abstract against. [12:58]
trinque: ftr I would not begrudge a new emacs [12:58]
asciilifeform: result: winblows 10 [12:58]
gabriel_laddel: what, you want to design the loper device using punch cards? [12:58]
trinque: but it will be a new emacs, and I will regard it with the same resentment [12:58]
gabriel_laddel: why even bother with gossipd? [12:58]
asciilifeform: programmers have a mindboggling lack of grasp of basic ecology even compared to illiterate afghani goat herders. [12:58]
mircea_popescu: you notice gossipd as specified is not related to implementation yes ? [12:58]
phf: trinque: there's a handful of adequate contenders, problem with emacs is that everyone wants all those hacky, emacs-version-specific .el files that actually do stuff [12:59]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: "but you can't abstract over hardware" [12:59]
gabriel_laddel: nuh un, no way [12:59]
gabriel_laddel: can't and doesn't happen. Never ever ever. [12:59]
mircea_popescu: you're talking about different things, though. [12:59]
gabriel_laddel: are we? [12:59]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: climacs? [13:00]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: afaik, solves all the problems with the old one (lack of multithreading, elisp is crap etc) [13:00]
asciilifeform: except for the part where it needs clim [13:00]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: also can display arbitrary graphics [13:00]
asciilifeform: at 5fps. [13:01]
asciilifeform: with athena. [13:01]
phf: asciilifeform: fwiw there isn't actual athena in mcclim, it's a skin designed to look that way [13:01]
gabriel_laddel: !!google cap-lore.com "gabriel laddel" [13:01]
deedbot: No results. [13:01]
asciilifeform: phf: even worse! [13:02]
asciilifeform: 'i'm not a transgendered goat, i dress up as one voluntarily' [13:02]
mircea_popescu: yes. the "can't abstract broken software with other software" is a restatement of godel, "There may not exist specific algorithm A for any formal system F that includes statements of certain elementary mathematical truth as well as its own consistency so that A will create subsystem F' which is consistent and an homology of F" [13:03]
trinque: gabriel_laddel: I called *your* thing an emacs, figuratively. It is "chinatown", place within a place. [13:03]
trinque: this isn't a reason not to do it, but it describes limitations that are unavoidable [13:04]
trinque: google *will* rape the linux out from under you [13:04]
gabriel_laddel: how? [13:04]
gabriel_laddel: they'll steal my computers? [13:04]
trinque: this "denial as motivational mechanism" thing is *why* the esteemed lordship hates young men, ftr [13:05]
trinque: :p [13:05]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: they trivially, six time before breakfast, make it ~impossible to reproduce your comp [13:05]
phf: asciilifeform: that was an fyi. mcclim's x backend is clx, i.e. fully networked. there's no actually ffi of any kind happening there [13:05]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: my comp already reproduces on identical hardware! [13:05]
trinque: one should have a plan to make hardware if he intends to do anything in computing going forward. [13:05]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: which you make with own hands, out of mineral ? [13:05]
trinque: gabriel_laddel: it does not reproduce the hardware! [13:05]
gabriel_laddel: holy fuck ebay exists [13:05]
asciilifeform: phf: i know this. [13:05]
mircea_popescu: this is getting painful to watch. [13:06]
asciilifeform: ^ [13:06]
mircea_popescu: no but. everyone talking about his own thing! what is this! [13:06]
mircea_popescu: trinque having a sane prototype is not a bad idea whether you can or you can't make it. [13:07]
asciilifeform: there is no such thing as sane prototype of insane concept. [13:07]
trinque: oh, I told him "make the thing" and always do [13:07]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) all concepts are insane b) the only way this is ever usefully established is through prototyping. [13:07]
phf: asciilifeform: well, then you're saying things that contradict what you claim to know [13:08]
asciilifeform: i dun need to actually construct railway bridge from toothpicks to say conclusively that it is dumb. [13:08]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform YOU don't. because one's ideology, ie, theoretical insight, is a shield for that one. [13:08]
mircea_popescu: but this speaks not of railroads. [13:08]
asciilifeform: hey, who insists - can go, build. [13:08]
mircea_popescu: railroad bridge DOES need to be constructed out of toothpicks. [13:08]
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel [13:09]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [13:09]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: you remember my asking after a hardware database? [13:09]
mircea_popescu: ehehehe. did i mention very early trilema was discussing the eventual mysql chip ? [13:09]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc the thread was about a pedestrian list of 'hardware we like' [13:10]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: essentially I would like all information available about all hardware vendors, neatly organized. [13:10]
asciilifeform: rather than 'electrical db' [13:10]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: it is a very very short list. [13:10]
gabriel_laddel: even if this is just a list of .pdf files I can parse [13:10]
* trinque isn't mad at the idea of a hardware db [13:10]
phf: a friend of mine bought a house in san francisco last year, because he's working on "mysql chip", really an fpga that does a bunch of mysql specific optimizations. (mostly query compilation) [13:10]
gabriel_laddel: and on that note, I'm off. [13:11]
asciilifeform: phf: this is actually a mature market in, e.g., gene sequence biz [13:11]
asciilifeform: phf: can buy by the crate. [13:11]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2010/curiozitate-calculatoristica/#selection-73.0-77.118 << "The question then is, when do you suppose we'll see the first MySql chip, incapable of loading an os or anything" [13:11]
trinque: phf: iirc couple companies are bolting GPUs to postgres too [13:11]
mircea_popescu: phf im pretty sure that if db-on-a-chip happens, it'll be mysql first. much to the chagrin of sane people. [13:12]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it would if it could. [13:12]
asciilifeform: thing dun map well to single-purpose si. [13:12]
mircea_popescu: myeah. afaik no statically linked mysql was yet made, which is kinda a first step [13:12]
trinque: since gabriel_laddel reads logs, the point was, if you're building atop linux, better actually know linux [13:13]
trinque: iirc another such character did pretty well bolting shiny things to a BSD [13:13]
asciilifeform: well, did well in the circus [13:13]
asciilifeform: where shiny - counts. [13:13]
trinque: if he even gets an inkling that there's a professional computing market that'll be useful information. [13:15]
asciilifeform: trinque: there is a pro number crunching market. [13:15]
asciilifeform: there ~isn't a pro computing market. [13:15]
asciilifeform: (as in, with human, in a chair, looking at a screen) [13:15]
mircea_popescu: really, making a lisp that works for serious applications in this sense is outside his pay grade [13:15]
mircea_popescu: but anyway, leaving the discussion aside for a moment to focus on the meta discussion : am i the only one who's a little irked by the fact that kid wants to do x, gets list of instructions to not do x ? what is this, the nuclear family, elementary unit of the state ? [13:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what is to be gained from ~not telling~ the kid that the dead end is a dead end ? [13:18]
mircea_popescu: really ? [13:18]
asciilifeform: it isn't as if we tied him to a pole to keep him from going into it. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: "dad i wanna get married" "honeybunch, you'll get old and your tits will sag and it'll suck. don't get married, it's a dead end" [13:18]
mircea_popescu: it ~is~ as if all you wanna talk about is why he shouldn't do what he figures he wants to do. this isn't very bright, is it ? [13:19]
mircea_popescu: give kid as much rope to hang self with as kid can carry. [13:19]
asciilifeform: i'd personally rather see folks explore directions that haven't been explored to agonizing death and conclusively mapped as dead. [13:20]
mircea_popescu: but who asked you ? [13:20]
asciilifeform: but possibly that's just me. [13:20]
mircea_popescu: no, it's not just you, it's me too. but he didn't ask us! [13:20]
trinque: doesn't bother me one bit, only demonstrated that "I don't know how to network these two machines" and got thunked to... learn that. [13:20]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in point of fact, gabriel_laddel asked. [13:20]
mircea_popescu: link me ? [13:20]
mircea_popescu: trinque his objection is to the notion of "learn" and "knowledge" involved in that statement though, you might've noticed. and i don't really see it's altogether weak. [13:21]
asciilifeform: !#s from:gabriel_laddel [13:22]
a111: 3092 results for "from:gabriel_laddel", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Agabriel_laddel [13:22]
mircea_popescu: what, seriously, he asked you 3092 times ? [13:22]
asciilifeform: fella 'asks' regularly, 'my bulldog head that i stitched onto this rhinoceros just won't wake up, plox help' [13:22]
mircea_popescu: this is not that, however. [13:22]
trinque: mircea_popescu: he is *not* replacing the underlying system and thus cannot avoid developing comprehensive knowledge of how *it* works before plonking whatever atop it and calling it something [13:23]
trinque: I will deny he "knows" masamune on the same grounds [13:23]
mircea_popescu: trinque yah, but now it's in a much better formulation. at least to my taste. [13:23]
asciilifeform: a dude who believes that he is genuinely solving some actual problem by bolting a gui onto 'portage', is engaging in willful idiocy [13:23]
asciilifeform: precisely of the kind mircea_popescu and other sane folk decry [13:23]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you show this to be truth ? [13:24]
mircea_popescu: (i'm not even proposing it isn't, just wanna see what the showing would look like.) [13:24]
asciilifeform: depending on what kind of 'show' -- straight to (as mircea_popescu cited earlier) the good doctor godel [13:25]
asciilifeform: but if instead 'practical' demonstration - can point to nearly any pile of shit in software land as proof [13:25]
mircea_popescu: anyway. most of my concern is that your (plural) heartfelt advice is remarkably unpersuasive. gotta wonder wtf devil is at work here. [13:25]
asciilifeform: it is unpersuasive for the very familiar reason that every boy thinks himself uncrowned king of universe [13:26]
asciilifeform: (which translates into an amazing spectrum of cognitive slips) [13:26]
asciilifeform: 'if i don't understand how foobar works, i can declare it irrelevant and never need to understand' [13:27]
asciilifeform: 'if foobar is broken, i will put it in BIG FUCKING BOTTLE from which it WON'T DARE escape' [13:27]
asciilifeform: etc. [13:27]
mircea_popescu: there is some of that. [13:27]
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=5269 [13:27]
mircea_popescu: but it's also structurally broken because it fails to neatly reduce uncrowned king of universe via reduction to absurd. which is the measure of persuasion, apud socrates. [13:28]
asciilifeform: at no point is the notion that 'irrelevant' foobar will dissolve the bottle, the desk, the floor, the house, your mother, and you, and the town - contemplated. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: ipso definitio. [13:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your potential 'clean' and structurally-perfect philosophical pill will have same 0 effect as my 'dirty' one. [13:30]
asciilifeform: because the ill is not curable. [13:30]
mircea_popescu: the ill gotta be curable at least on occasion, or else you're stuck explaining this place. [13:30]
asciilifeform: the one thing that cures is the years going by and the patient bashing himself bloody against the concrete wall of the 'ignored and abstracted'. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: hence http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#374 yes ? [13:31]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [17:19:45] <mircea_popescu> give kid as much rope to hang self with as kid can carry. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: gotta be a lot more nurturing in the way of rope supplies, by your own theory ? [13:31]
asciilifeform: eh hey i dun recall ever deying him the requested rope. [13:32]
asciilifeform: e.g., today's netcat. [13:32]
asciilifeform: *denying [13:32]
mircea_popescu: this is tru. [13:32]
mircea_popescu: "dad, i want to put the cat's head on the dog's body, can i borrow your hair trimmer ?" "that won't work, it's too small and it will get clogged in blood. here's the chainsaw." [13:33]
mircea_popescu: and if the above horrifies wife, get rid of her. [13:33]
asciilifeform: speaking of which, did mircea_popescu ever visit town of barriloche ? [13:34]
asciilifeform: where mengele et al lived out their days. [13:34]
asciilifeform: iirc it isn't far from mircea_popesculandia. [13:34]
asciilifeform: ( it must've been a real downer for these folks, who turned into boring, snoring car mechanics, dentists, etc. 'hey, remember when we used to saw dude apart and stitch his head onto his arse? ' 'shuddup, pass the oil pan' ) [13:35]
ben_vulpes: in other 'own thing', 'prototyping' and 'omgwtfbbq' nyooz, this is where i threw my hands up and went to bed last night: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/m8mjo/?raw=true [13:40]
ben_vulpes: obvs my thinger is broken in that the hash is wrong, but amusingly i get the sequence number as tx in index [13:41]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 0xffffffff ??? [13:42]
ben_vulpes: however many f's you need for a u256 [13:42]
ben_vulpes: but the strange thing is that i read the sequence number where i expected to see the index [13:43]
asciilifeform: endian issue ? [13:43]
ben_vulpes: so now to the source and hexdump to see how individual transactions are structured [13:43]
asciilifeform: source, lulzily, is quite unhelpful because of the 'serialization' abstraction it liberally makes use of [13:44]
ben_vulpes: i doubt it, as everything so far is little-endian, and only by convention reversed by early block explorers to show the zeros first or who the fuck knows i've never found a sensible explanation for reversing block hashes (and only block hashes!) [13:44]
ben_vulpes: oh trust me i fucking know [13:44]
asciilifeform: https://github.com/lbotsch/wireshark-bitcoin << not a wholly bad guide to the thing [13:45]
asciilifeform: esp. if coupled with actual working wireshark + trb node. [13:45]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform haven't bothered, no. [13:47]
* ben_vulpes is looking for the log line where asciilifeform made a comment about how the block structure was trivially deduceable from the source, a few days ago after i published the header serialization snippet [13:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw, i have nfi what, if anything, is left there to see. [13:47]
mircea_popescu: exactly. [13:47]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'trivially' means different things to different people. [13:47]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but look on bright side: if you have the thing running on your box, it won't run away, you can vivisect it until you learn whatever you wanted to learn. [13:48]
asciilifeform: you will never have to go to the town market to buy a new rhinoceros or new bulldog, you can cut the head of this one as many times as it takes. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: word. [13:49]
ben_vulpes: yeah i have the vast majority of blocks serialized to disk and am trimming them apart. [13:49]
mircea_popescu: the jools you'll find... [13:49]
mircea_popescu: iirc "this means your disk now contains child porn". [13:50]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: these already lived in a consecutive pile. [13:50]
asciilifeform: !#s blkcut [13:50]
a111: 25 results for "blkcut", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=blkcut [13:50]
ben_vulpes: yes i recall [13:50]
ben_vulpes: i'm leaning on dumpblock to get them in chain-order [13:51]
ben_vulpes: (and only the ones in the main chain, atm) [13:52]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it helps to remember that the blockchain is ~not~ in actuality a simple linear sequence [13:52]
asciilifeform: at the frayed tail end, it is ~always~ potentially bifurcated [13:53]
ben_vulpes: 'tis a tree [13:53]
asciilifeform: (and trb does in fact store orphaned blocks eternally) [13:53]
ben_vulpes: and i believe that the thing hangs on to short chains [13:53]
asciilifeform: it hangs on to any orphaned chain [13:53]
asciilifeform: because there is no fundamental way to weasel out of doing so [13:53]
asciilifeform: (you don't know that it will be orphaned until later) [13:53]
asciilifeform: this is quite obvious, neh ? [13:54]
ben_vulpes: rather. [13:54]
ben_vulpes: when i need to handle reorgs, i'll do so. [13:54]
asciilifeform: i ran into this caltrop when diffing my blocks with mircea_popescu's way back when [13:55]
asciilifeform: when i was doing the repeatable-sync experiments. [13:55]
ben_vulpes: mhm [13:55]
asciilifeform: turned out that we had differing records of orphaned blox. [13:55]
asciilifeform: in handful of spots. [13:55]
ben_vulpes: while i have your attention, asciilifeform, am i doing this entirely incorrectly? http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/azncd/?raw=true [13:55]
ben_vulpes: (if the thing had an adult database, the tree would fall naturally out of foreign keys on height, from each block to its parents) [13:56]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what do you have against 'case' operator ? [13:57]
ben_vulpes: oh! none. [13:57]
ben_vulpes: easily fixed. i'm more interested in correct use-of-binary-types [13:57]
asciilifeform: it is painful to read [13:57]
ben_vulpes: i wasted an inordinate amount of time on various false starts in storing variable length fields. [13:58]
asciilifeform: and your cases fallthrough into neverneverland [13:58]
ben_vulpes: fell back to a setf from read-binary. [13:58]
ben_vulpes: my cases in particular? [13:58]
asciilifeform: e.g., what happens if first-octet is < 253 ? [13:58]
asciilifeform: or hm nm [13:58]
ben_vulpes: funny, that's the exact same misread trinque made. [13:59]
phf: ben_vulpes: you don't have to store first-octet since, it's a property of variable-integer (also if you change variable-integer, you'll have to make sure to correspondingly update first-octet) [14:07]
asciilifeform: (defmethod sizeofi [14:09]
asciilifeform: (with-slots (first-octet) [14:09]
asciilifeform: type [14:09]
asciilifeform: (case first-octet [14:09]
asciilifeform: (253 3) [14:09]
asciilifeform: (254 5) [14:09]
asciilifeform: (255 9) [14:09]
asciilifeform: (t 1)))) [14:09]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes ^ [14:09]
asciilifeform: and similar for the other one. [14:10]
phf: well, while asciilifeform's yak shaving, i don't think this is correct way to handle the type [14:10]
asciilifeform: phf: i dunno that binary-types offers a clean way of handling this type [14:11]
ben_vulpes: far tidier asciilifeform ty [14:11]
ben_vulpes: phf: i am open, nay, desperate for alternatives [14:11]
ben_vulpes: phf: i do believe that i have to hold onto first-octet, if it's less than 253 it *is* the length. [14:12]
phf: ben_vulpes: no. [14:12]
ben_vulpes: go on? [14:13]
phf: the type is called compact size (in bitcoin src parlance), it is simply an number. the reader reads a byte, decides what to do, ultimately returns ~the number~ [14:13]
phf: so it's up to reader to decide if it should return first octet as ~the number~ or read first octet and read a bunch of stuff after and return that as ~the number~ [14:14]
ben_vulpes: gotcha [14:14]
phf: the writer likewise knows all it needs to know about how to serialize from ~the number~. the check becomes "in which range it is, in which case write it thus" [14:14]
ben_vulpes: mhm! [14:15]
ben_vulpes: thank you very much. [14:15]
asciilifeform: well the thing that presumably drew ben_vulpes to using 'binary-types' is the notion that 'describe the type and never have to manually craft readers/writers' [14:15]
asciilifeform: which unfortunately isn't the case for variable-length types in it [14:15]
asciilifeform: and the 'correct' thing to do would be to extend it such that it would be. [14:16]
ben_vulpes: spot on [14:16]
asciilifeform: but whether this is worth the sweat, i cannot say. [14:16]
ben_vulpes: conveniently, the generic for read-binary accepts other keys, into which i can pass a length for reading [14:16]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it is imho entirely worth the sweat [14:17]
ben_vulpes: otherwise what, write parsing of entire structure by hand? and then reserialization? [14:17]
ben_vulpes: noty, i would like to constrain the attack surface to satoshis retardation. [14:17]
phf: well, step two after writing compact size reader/writer is to figure out how to make a general purpose "binary-type object of count `compact size`" [14:18]
asciilifeform: it isn't even about 'attack surfaces', but for getting maximally compact description. i.e. fits-in-head. [14:18]
ben_vulpes: phf: is that particular 'compact size' anything like other hand-rolled variable length integers in c-land? [14:19]
ben_vulpes: once i have a stake in the varint it will go precisely nowhere. [14:20]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the maximally compact description is 3-4 'binary classes', and some hairy braindamage around the varint and scripts. [14:21]
phf: ben_vulpes: well, what you're calling "varint" is called compact size in bitcoin source, and it's used exclusively as a size prefix for variable length lists <compact size><item 1><item 2><item 3> [14:21]
ben_vulpes: at least from where i'm sitting today. [14:21]
ben_vulpes: phf: yes? i...know. [14:21]
phf: oh, then i don't grok your question. "yes, it's exactly like any other hand-rolled variable length integer in c land" [14:22]
ben_vulpes: perhaps i misunderstand you, but once i have the type, sizeof, read-binary and write-binary implemented, then i'll have a "general purpose 'binary type object of count `compact size`'" [14:23]
phf: ooh, you don't write c, yes, it's a common pattern [14:23]
phf: hmm [14:23]
ben_vulpes: and the whole "if less than 253, that's the number, if equal then read the next octet, if blablabla" is that consistent across c-land? [14:24]
ben_vulpes: i only intended to write the compact size reader, not take it out of bitcoinland. [14:24]
phf: no, but it's a common pattern [14:24]
ben_vulpes: (and writer) [14:24]
asciilifeform: it's a very sad pattern though. promisetronic. in that you have a format ~in your head~ and then write 'reader' and 'writer' and there is no machine-assured isomorphism between the one and the other, and definitely not with the format. [14:24]
ben_vulpes: i don't even think you can have max compact size anything in trb. [14:24]
ben_vulpes: did some late night back-of-the envelope on script length and miminum transaction size and i don't recall it breaching u32 [14:25]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: was general observation. [14:25]
asciilifeform: and think for 10 seconds [14:25]
asciilifeform: tx can't be any bigger than block. [14:25]
asciilifeform: but idiot author wanted 'generality', so we now have this. [14:26]
ben_vulpes: i have thought about this for at least ten seconds. [14:26]
phf: ben_vulpes: i still think there's some misunderstanding. once you have a compact size reader, you don't automatically get "read N objects of compact size count" [14:26]
ben_vulpes: generally try to keep the snr-damaging wailing and gnashing to my self. [14:26]
ben_vulpes: phf, yes, that's why i pass a 'byte-count' keyword argument to the read-binary method for script bytes [14:27]
ben_vulpes: eg http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/q8qud/?raw=true [14:28]
phf: the entire thing you posted is and only is compact size. [14:28]
ben_vulpes: well yeah we were only talking about compact size! [14:28]
ben_vulpes: standby 2 [14:29]
ben_vulpes: (there's a fair amount of garbage in the thing i didn't feel like cluttering the discusison with) [14:30]
phf: ben_vulpes: ok, so that second paste is i guess not "general purpose", you'll have to write a reader/writer for every structure that has compact size'd parts in it [14:30]
ben_vulpes: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/d6kbl/?raw=true << i have to run for a bit [14:31]
ben_vulpes: but yeah, anything that has compact size parts needs custom readers and writers. [14:32]
phf: so you're either stuck with that, or you figure out how to make it general purpose :> [14:32]
ben_vulpes: something like that [14:33]
* ben_vulpes really off now [14:33]
phf: kk [14:33]
phf: it's a worthwhile attempt anyway, because implementing binary types from scratch with necessary parts to support bitcoin is not that hard. mine is 129 lines [14:34]
phf: err, it's worthwhile attempt because binary types core is small and easy to understand, and likewise easy to write own [14:35]
asciilifeform: phf: is yours posted somewhere ? [14:35]
phf: i lisp pasted it a year ago, but i'll dig it up if you're interested. it's hairy though [14:36]
asciilifeform: would be interesting to read side by side with ben_vulpes's [14:36]
phf: gives you defs like [14:36]
phf: (define-proto-structure tx () [14:36]
phf: (4 version uint32_t 1) [14:36]
phf: (nil txin (compactSize-uint txin)) [14:36]
phf: (nil txout (compactSize-uint txout)) [14:36]
phf: (4 lock-time uint32_t)) [14:36]
phf: (define-proto-structure txin () [14:36]
phf: (36 previous-output outpoint) [14:36]
phf: (nil signature-script (compactSize-uint char)) [14:37]
phf: (4 sequence uint32_t)) [14:37]
phf: [14:37]
asciilifeform: l0l! was this auto-generated from something ? [14:37]
phf: i'm trying to remember what i used as reference [14:38]
phf: i think it aws en.bitcoin.it [14:38]
* asciilifeform mutters 'what if i'm on a box with 7-trit trytes'... [14:38]
phf: *was [14:38]
asciilifeform: !#s tritcoin [14:39]
a111: 1 result for "tritcoin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=tritcoin [14:39]
asciilifeform: hah. [14:40]
phf: it doesn't matter, because on your box with 7-trit trytes you make your reader/writer infrastructure read it correctly [14:40]
asciilifeform: well yes but the '4' !11111 [14:40]
asciilifeform: at any rate. [14:40]
phf: well, you write your heathen-octet-stream wrapper around your default sb-internal::binary-trit-tryte-input, so that read-byte on a stream gives you the right things [14:43]
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu your new page's section IV oughta link to trb [14:43]
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [14:43]
phf: i agree though, the numbers are unnecessary, i'll have to borrow the whole sizeof concept :> [14:43]
asciilifeform: phf: interestingly, the ada folks got this right. [14:44]
asciilifeform: http://sworthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/03/ada-vs-c-bit-fields.html << see also. [14:44]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> "dad i wanna get married" "honeybunch, you'll get old and your tits will sag and it'll suck. don't get married, it's a dead end" << LOL [14:46]
phf: asciilifeform: ha, still doesn't account for 7-trit machines! [14:50]
asciilifeform: phf: not directly, no. [14:50]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#461 << technically you don't know it will be orphaned ever, because "being orphan" is not a quality of a block/chain. if tomorrow we decide to extend an "orphan" from 2014 and in the process strand extant bitcoin, we ~can~. [14:54]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [17:53:56] <asciilifeform> (you don't know that it will be orphaned until later) [14:54]
asciilifeform: well yes. [14:54]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it does link ? http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html [14:54]
asciilifeform: aha! [14:54]
asciilifeform: i must've missed. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: in a sense getting rid of historical "orphans" is very much community-trying-to-insure against the nature of the blockchain. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: doesn't work, of course, but then again lemmings aren't looking for solutions merely for the appearance thereof. [14:56]
asciilifeform: my original point was that the 'linear' blockchain is very much an after-the-fact flattening [14:57]
asciilifeform: rather than the form in which it is representable in real time. [14:57]
mircea_popescu: much like a "press", it's a personal take on the lightcone as-it-is. [14:58]
asciilifeform: aha. [14:59]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#501 << fucking utf everywhere. [14:59]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:13:11] <phf> the type is called compact size (in bitcoin src parlance), it is simply an number. the reader reads a byte, decides what to do, ultimately returns ~the number~ [14:59]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#507 << iirc what drew him was that you told him to. [15:00]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:15:46] <asciilifeform> well the thing that presumably drew ben_vulpes to using 'binary-types' is the notion that 'describe the type and never have to manually craft readers/writers' [15:00]
asciilifeform: it was and remains the best starting point for sanity. [15:00]
asciilifeform: afaik. [15:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho section ix ought to link to ben_vulpes's mega-article on subj [15:02]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#528 << first time i ever heard of it. also fucking stupid, 253 = 11111101 lord have mercy. [15:02]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:24:07] <ben_vulpes> and the whole "if less than 253, that's the number, if equal then read the next octet, if blablabla" is that consistent across c-land? [15:02]
asciilifeform: it was closest thing there was to a 'textbook of v' [15:02]
mircea_popescu: link ? [15:02]
asciilifeform: http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system [15:03]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#534 << not since we drove stake through hearn-gavin shambler heart. but "in the future" of retardation, i'm sure there will be. [15:04]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:25:12] <ben_vulpes> did some late night back-of-the envelope on script length and miminum transaction size and i don't recall it breaching u32 [15:04]
mircea_popescu: oh yeah! adding. [15:04]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the formatting of ^ suffered greatly from the wordpressification. [15:05]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/1zGfH << the imho more readable original. for now. [15:06]
phf: from the "wat" department https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1799205/sex-change-soldier-is-britains-first-female-to-fight-on-front-line-after-being-born-a-boy/ [15:07]
asciilifeform: rule brittania. [15:07]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#537 << if only. re http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoind-not-quite-ready-for-prime-time/#selection-77.298-77.423 etc. [15:07]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:25:45] <asciilifeform> tx can't be any bigger than block. [15:07]
mircea_popescu: which of course reminds one of http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm and so on. [15:08]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the failure to generate 1MB tx is promisetronic, not protocolic, though. [15:08]
asciilifeform: you could - in principle - fix. [15:09]
mircea_popescu: not really miners' junk is broken. [15:09]
asciilifeform: well that there's ye olde 'high S' problem, aha [15:09]
mircea_popescu: mostly because grown mushroom style. [15:09]
asciilifeform: convince somebody to mine. [15:09]
asciilifeform: and to call it mushroom is insult to mushrooms it is fungus on public toilet. [15:09]
mircea_popescu: also true. [15:11]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: rather sad, innit [15:13]
ben_vulpes: the formatopalypse [15:14]
ben_vulpes: at least i have blog-unique footnote refs now [15:14]
ben_vulpes: and comments! [15:14]
ben_vulpes: i received a /spam/ comment. [15:14]
ben_vulpes: my first! [15:14]
mircea_popescu: wd! [15:15]
thestringpuller: i'm so proud of you ben_vulpes. i knew you could do it! [15:15]
thestringpuller: I always believed in you! [15:15]
ben_vulpes: menial wwwtronix are just a matter of time [15:15]
ben_vulpes: in other satoshisms, i found a bottle of contact lens solution that turned out to have high vitamin e oil for topical use in it [15:19]
ben_vulpes: found, last night. discovered its contents, this morning. [15:19]
* ben_vulpes will ooze hydrocarbons from the eyes for days, probably [15:19]
asciilifeform: pull the hose off the shop wall, wash ? [15:20]
ben_vulpes: not a bad idea [15:20]
ben_vulpes: contacts are definitely toast. [15:20]
shinohai: For Flint, MI lulz: http://archive.is/jb2MI [15:53]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm << is pretty golden reread. [15:56]
asciilifeform: 'Do you grasp this? Bitcoin will never exist as a toy for five idiots. You will never get to matter inasmuch as what you want to do is have this little black box the world reveres that only you are allowed to peer inside. This is not how the world works, currently (and past about 1800 or so). This is not how the world should work, either. Specifying the code does not "result in fiascoes like this one". Your idiotic codebase results i [15:56]
asciilifeform: n in fiascoes like this one. Specification is the way out of it, and most importantly specification is the way out of having you idiots create fiascoes like this one randomly, one at a time, for the unforeseeable future. ' -- mpoepr [15:56]
asciilifeform: 'If the miners had half a clue they'd have told Idiot Co-op exactly where to stuff it, and here's the beauty of it: with the arrival of ASICs and their significant capital cost, the odds that the sort of feelgood ninnies currently involved in mining will still be around are nil. ' << if only this had been ! [15:58]
asciilifeform: 'What there's need for is people to sit down with a cup of coffee and a (preferably printed) copy of the code and just read it through. This can be done in bits as long as the bits aren't arbitrarily segmented (it's ok to summarize a procedure, it's not ok to summarize between lines 520 and 545). Once we have a few of these completed we're already very far down the road.' << mpoepr [16:05]
asciilifeform: lel, i never even read this before. [16:06]
* asciilifeform did not frequent tardstalk when it was alive, never had acct there [16:06]
shinohai: You're not missing much. [16:11]
ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/21_a-tour-of-bitcoind-booting-to-its-first-thread << i should do another of these! [16:16]
ben_vulpes: (another horribly formatted import from the old site, complete with broken images) [16:16]
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> You're not missing much. << At one point a person would have missed many lolz by skipping out [16:20]
shinohai: I know but there aren't even lolz any more, nary an ingenious scam to be found. [16:23]
shinohai: I think the whole place is inhabited now by human shannonizers that make mindless posts for 50 cents in satoshi a day. [16:24]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/nj-hamplanet-chris-christies-own-lawyer-calls-him-a-liar/ << Qntra - NJ Hamplanet Chris Christie's Own Lawyer Calls Him A Liar [16:52]
mircea_popescu: Birdman well apparently your 3d drivers are shot ? [17:13]
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#652 << remarkable how ahead of her time she was. [17:13]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [19:56:13] <asciilifeform> http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm << is pretty golden reread. [17:13]
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#655 << she was spot-on, actually. i don't think anyone who wasn't here can even grok what sort of copumpkin-esque imbeciles counted for miners back then. it's cleared immensely. [17:14]
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [19:58:22] <asciilifeform> 'If the miners had half a clue they'd have told Idiot Co-op exactly where to stuff it, and here's the beauty of it: with the arrival of ASICs and their significant capital cost, the odds that the sort of feelgood ninnies currently involved in mining will still be around are nil. ' << if only this had been ! [17:14]
mircea_popescu: and in other "we forgot how to do it" news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/9bb75d2478bb05786cfff6a5ba46278f/tumblr_mm8fu3y9ky1rmxgp0o1_1280.jpg [17:17]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/google-and-apple-break-compatibility-with-new-developer-product-releases/ << Qntra - Google And Apple Break Compatibility With New Developer Product Releases [17:35]
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1ovm [17:52]
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded. [17:52]
BingoBoingo: In classic trilema http://trilema.com/ [17:52]
BingoBoingo: * http://trilema.com/2013/wallmart-or-the-mall-a-debate/ [17:52]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/cash-seized-by-nypd-uncounted-and-untracked/ << Qntra - Cash Seized By NYPD Uncounted And Untracked [17:56]
shinohai: Maybe an increase in civil-asset forfeiture block sizes would help. [17:58]
shinohai: Sorry BingoBoingo I left out "would be required" after the " invoices each year.” quote [18:00]
BingoBoingo: ty fxd [18:01]
shinohai: !~ty [18:01]
jhvh1: You are very welcome Daddy [18:01]
ben_vulpes: today, i am electing to not implement a logout button. [18:35]
ben_vulpes: why would you ever want to log users out? [18:35]
ben_vulpes: that just makes it harder to get their money later. [18:35]
ben_vulpes: psh. [18:35]
asciilifeform: next abolish 'log in' [18:35]
ben_vulpes: now that you mention it, 'log in' entails a link in yr email. [18:36]
ben_vulpes: yeah actually now that you mention it, i'm abolishing users altogether. [18:36]
asciilifeform: system without lusers, aha, like soup without flies!111111 (tm) (r) (BOFH) [18:37]
ben_vulpes: more users, more problems. [18:38]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/nigerian-students-scammed-by-alabama-state-university/ << Qntra - Nigerian Students Scammed By Alabama State University [18:56]
ben_vulpes: i haven't seen gribble quit in some time. [18:59]
mircea_popescu: and in further hatespeech, http://65.media.tumblr.com/4be4d9998c39d363099cc70e5b73b674/tumblr_nlrycyiKM21sgp77yo1_1280.jpg [19:02]
mircea_popescu: lol the last two qntras, epic stuff. [19:04]
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1owq [19:07]
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded. [19:07]
shinohai: I didn't archive the source on that one because it has stupid javascript or something that obscued the article, making it pointless. [19:08]
BingoBoingo: ty mircea_popescu [19:12]
BingoBoingo: shinohai: ALready covered in "Roundup Xtend 6" [19:14]
shinohai: oh i missed that one, my bad [19:15]
BingoBoingo: it happens [19:16]
shinohai: I see the ceasefire has collapsed in Syria, meaning Assad saw shadow and there will be 10 more years of civil war. [19:17]
BingoBoingo: !~b 3 [19:18]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Error: "b" is not a valid command. [19:18]
BingoBoingo: Moar classic Trilema for today http://trilema.com/2014/the-bezzle-usd-and-the-tide-usd/ [19:27]
shinohai: http://archive.is/vx6VZ "Where do you live? Could be your immigration searched the package." "US - I would feel better if that was the case!" [20:45]
asciilifeform: shinohai: lel, wasn't this last year's thread ..? [20:46]
shinohai: Yeah I recall a thread on this. [20:46]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in iran, http://66.media.tumblr.com/43adadce09ded605540069355c90dbf7/tumblr_ngyxljZlpO1s150rho1_500.gif [21:31]
* shinohai would certainly like to improve US-Iranian relations with photo subject [21:34]
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1667 << Loper OS - A Complete Pill for the Sage SmartProbe. [22:17]
asciilifeform: ^ 3133333333333333337 w4r3z available nowhere else in solar system!1111111 [22:21]
BingoBoingo: Newsing up this exciting Republican victory! [23:52]
———
  1. type varint [↩]
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