Forum logs for 16 Nov 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [01:06]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7222.59, vol: 14684.62002310 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7220.0, vol: 60507.0461593 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7210.0, vol: 7585.25528369 | Volume-weighted last average: 7219.54311677 [01:06]
* BingoBoingo still has more tax law to read, but new rough number is 61.615 USd/week per RU or 267 USd/monthly per RU [01:16]
BingoBoingo: Calculated as 2*{[(monthly rack with 22% VAT)/(40 Salable RU)]*(12 Months)}/(52 weeks) [01:19]
BingoBoingo: Figure subject to change as more tax law is digested [01:19]
BingoBoingo: This is a reduction of ~21.47% over number from last night taken through weekification and de-fxrisking transform. [01:27]
BingoBoingo: And in latest Pantsuit purge developments pro-muscleman can be victim too https://archive.is/vjeDN [01:49]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374 << can you enlighten us about why you believe there's no way to use information about range of factors (because you say so?), and about the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371 as regards the number field sieve, as this doesn't seem to be published (or perharps for quadratic sieve). elliptic curve does benefit from smaller factors, but if the... [06:27]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 23:45 asciilifeform: nope. [06:27]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 23:43 asciilifeform: and the difficulty of breaking rsa via known methods is proportional to the size of the smallest prime. you oughta know that. [06:27]
apeloyee: ...factors differ only a few bits in length, it doesn't appear to be better than NFS. [06:27]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383 << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK. [06:30]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 23:59 asciilifeform: at any rate this is a quite pointless imho discussion, we will NOT be reintroducing normalized integer braindamage. [06:30]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739412 << i don't think anything besides the stringing of words is seriously contemplated. [08:13]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 03:30 asciilifeform: ( reading the linked item, it would be impossible to infer that it is ~not~ one ) [08:13]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739424 << is the first figure with customer's gear and the second with yours ? [08:14]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 06:16 BingoBoingo still has more tax law to read, but new rough number is 61.615 USd/week per RU or 267 USd/monthly per RU [08:14]
mircea_popescu: ah sorry my bad, week/month nm [08:14]
mircea_popescu: im getting at least 4, so. proceed. [08:15]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739432 << factors differing by only a few bits in length aren't particularily unsafe, which is why the original alt-rsa spec involved them (see eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697613 and the eventual end of that discussion.) [08:19]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 11:27 apeloyee: ...factors differ only a few bits in length, it doesn't appear to be better than NFS. [08:19]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:21 mircea_popescu: tmsr rsa standard key is 515 bits, made out of a 257 and a 258 bit long prime. [08:19]
mircea_popescu: factors that are very small are trivially a vulnerability, as the 17 example shows. what is "small enough" is somewhat of an open question, but 512 BITS does conceiovably qualify. [08:20]
mircea_popescu: there's no argument that informations about range of factors CAN be used. the point is minorily that a) a range of 2045 bits is sufficient and majorily that b) should this range NOT be sufficient, the correct response is to extend IT, rather than to introduce key-substitute mechanisms in the actual encryption scheme. [08:21]
mircea_popescu: ie, "you have the following information about any and all factors : they're 11 led, 1 terminated, 2045 true random bits. knock yourself out." [08:22]
mircea_popescu: yes, in about 6% of cases the N will come out as 111..., in which case you know that both p and q are actually 1111 1111 led, ie you'll have 2 bits of each. and in 0.001% of cases N will led by FF and have the next bit set, so you'll know both p and q have the first octet set. if you have an extension attack allowing you to parlay 8 leading bits into the prime exposure, you can thereby crack rsa in 0.001% of cases. [08:26]
mircea_popescu: as far as anyone knows, something closer to 450 bits is what's actually needed. [08:26]
mircea_popescu: this whole thing aside, the only objection to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433 ie, "produce sets of 2048 bits, check them for primality, if they're prime multiply them and if the product is a suitable N keep them else start over" was http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737682 [08:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 11:30 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383 << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK. [08:29]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 << this is alternatively a perfectly acceptable approach expensive as all fuck though. prolly should be the standard for homemade keys. [08:29]
mircea_popescu: it may appear beneficial to instead produce larger sets, such as of 4096 bits. the UPPER BOUND of the gain from this process is known the lower bound of losses from it is not known, because yes if you allow 4096 bit p, q and test, an acceptable N can be composed of the product between 17 and 2^4092 - 177 or whatever it was. [08:38]
mircea_popescu: so logically if indeed the larger upper bound was deemed useful we'd move the standard to 8192 bits N with 4096 bit p/q rather than do this. [08:38]
mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/ [08:57]
mircea_popescu: cultivated enough to mention bernstein&gf curve, uncomprehending enough to "post quantum algorithms". how do these happen, i wish to know. [09:00]
mircea_popescu: other lulz, same source : https://blog.josefsson.org/2017/08/03/vikings-d16-server-first-impressions/ (apparently there's an entire kanzure 's wanker club dedicated to republican hosting vikings.net and whatnot. doesn't seem to be actually working though, but i did join their irc, see what happens. [09:09]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739429 << forget public nfsieve. consider ordinary bruteforce ('but how brute force for soomanybits??!' ) on novel physical substrate, or with a heuristic that lets you skip large chunks of space [09:21]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 11:27 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374 << can you enlighten us about why you believe there's no way to use information about range of factors (because you say so?), and about the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371 as regards the number field sieve, as this doesn't seem to be published (or perharps for quadratic sieve). elliptic curve does benefit from smaller factors, but if the... [09:21]
asciilifeform: 'state of the art' means ANY attack that i can describe. [09:22]
mircea_popescu: or consider something as simple as phuctor, that already has a lot of "special" primes, however you define special (small, common, whatevewr) [09:22]
asciilifeform: aaha. [09:22]
mircea_popescu: the importance of a phuctor style primorial+commonkeyset gcding away is somehow easily overlooked by academic minds. but in practical terms it is the first line, degree (or even two!) ahead of haskelism a la gnfs [09:23]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433 << lol next this fella will say, i suspect, 'why do you restrict the range of N' [09:23]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 11:30 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383 << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK. [09:23]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, bernstein's curve implementation is ALSO free of branching on secret bits, have you seen that thing ? [09:24]
asciilifeform: which one [09:25]
asciilifeform: he has a buncha [09:25]
mircea_popescu: http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/software.html [09:26]
mircea_popescu: not entirely clear yet if he just AIMED to avoid all secret bit branching or actulaly managed. [09:26]
mircea_popescu: but the attempt is evident. [09:26]
asciilifeform: i only see pyturds [09:26]
mircea_popescu: yes. [09:26]
asciilifeform: crypto in a gclang is an absurdity [09:26]
mircea_popescu: yes. [09:27]
mircea_popescu: not discussing that part. [09:27]
asciilifeform: of course it branches on seekritz [09:27]
asciilifeform: or hm you were prolly thinking of the asm one [09:27]
mircea_popescu: here, worth pasting : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UFtzz/?raw=true [09:27]
mircea_popescu: consider it pseudocode [09:27]
asciilifeform: if e & 1: t = (t*b) % m [09:28]
asciilifeform: it ain't pseudocode for anything useful [09:28]
mircea_popescu: hater. [09:28]
mircea_popescu: exp is not secret [09:29]
* asciilifeform not much into eccism, regards its presence in btc as a bug [09:30]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739455 << not so surprising, considering that bernstein himself is a quantumist [09:31]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 14:00 mircea_popescu: cultivated enough to mention bernstein&gf curve, uncomprehending enough to "post quantum algorithms". how do these happen, i wish to know. [09:31]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what is "eccism" ? [09:32]
mircea_popescu: elliptic curve based crypto [09:32]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: elliptic curve cipher [09:32]
diana_coman: ah, thanks [09:33]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739454 << pretty deep lol , 'I chose a RSA key size of 3925 for my blog' and d00d dun seem to realize that it's exactly a 4096b modulus wit 171 leading zeros ... [09:34]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 13:57 mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/ [09:34]
mircea_popescu: aha [09:34]
mircea_popescu: exactly in the vein above. "understands how to add, thinks 4>5." [09:35]
mircea_popescu: how the fuck. [09:35]
mircea_popescu: it's like penis cage for the brain, somehow. [09:35]
asciilifeform: by refusing to add. 'i'm too clean to touch a shovel' is the likely pathology. [09:35]
mircea_popescu: in other ongoing lulzvelopments, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kP8vH/?raw=true [09:36]
asciilifeform: crowdfunding lol [09:36]
mircea_popescu: got 3-4k together so far. but they do seem vaguely promising, maybe. [09:37]
mircea_popescu: if can be cleanned enough always a dubious proposition in english speakers. [09:37]
asciilifeform: folx without ideology are like dodo. simply waiting for the ship fulla dogs to land. [09:37]
diana_coman: PeterL, did you test your permutation step functions on that keccak implementation? when I feed rho a full-zero state it seems to end up with non-zero output [09:37]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: interesting, and it still passed the test vectors despite this ?? [09:39]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, serpent passed the test vectors!! [09:39]
diana_coman: NOT keccak serpent [09:39]
diana_coman: now torturing keccak and... [09:39]
asciilifeform: aaaa [09:40]
mircea_popescu: did it pass any others ? [09:40]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, well, he had those step functions private so initially inaccessible so first I've tried a full test (i.e. input is this, do full keccak round, output should be this): it failed so then I grunted through exposing the step functions at least at this stage and testing bit by bit [09:42]
mircea_popescu: and first one failed ? [09:42]
diana_coman: rho step is second,what can I say first one passed, yes (theta) [09:42]
mircea_popescu: aha. [09:42]
diana_coman: rho uses that Rotate_Left function which is imported from gnat I'd rather not have it in a reference implementation tbh [09:53]
diana_coman: I guess I'll test that one now... [09:53]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: how do you propose to rotate without it ? as i see it, the language standard simply has a rotate-shaped hole in it [09:54]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I don't yet know the answer to that I'm still eating Ada so I can't decide either way still, I don't ...like it, that's all I said perhaps there is no solution to it, perhaps there is one [09:57]
asciilifeform: afaik there isn't a proper solution. [09:59]
asciilifeform: it's a single fucking cpu instruction on ~all known cpu. and yet some wrecker saw it fit to exclude it from the language standard. [10:01]
asciilifeform: exactly same nonsense as the carry flag thing [10:01]
asciilifeform: motherfuckers, there is not a single comp made in 40 years that doesn't have a carry flag. WHY YOU HID IT [10:02]
asciilifeform: it's infuriating [10:02]
asciilifeform: gcc offers a built-in rotate 'illicitly', but not a portable access to carry flag. because ALSO run by wreckers. [10:03]
asciilifeform: result is a 4x slower ffa. [10:03]
asciilifeform: ('use asm' is not an answer, i want, as diana_coman wants, a PORTABLE proggy ) [10:04]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the sad fact re gnat is that it is in fact the only ada. being as the 'alternatives' are, without exception, closed winturds. [10:07]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, portable is the rub there I'll read more on ada for now, nothing much to add atm [10:16]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739520 << we can afford to inline asm, seeing how minigame knows what iron it runs it on. [10:19]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 15:01 asciilifeform: exactly same nonsense as the carry flag thing [10:19]
mircea_popescu: as a forinstance. [10:19]
asciilifeform: discussion was re 'reference implementation' [10:20]
asciilifeform: naturally on particular iron you can asm [10:20]
mircea_popescu: hey, minigame produced reference implementation of ada keccak can well contain inline asm rotation, and who dun like it can do whatever they will. [10:20]
mircea_popescu: reference means "what works for me" not "what works for others". [10:20]
asciilifeform: 'reference' has no business baking in whatever quirks of intelism, known & unknown [10:21]
mircea_popescu: not per se. [10:21]
mircea_popescu: but reference also has no business baking in whatever quirks of "human rights & the fyotoor", known & unknown. [10:21]
asciilifeform: imho if you're gonna have asm, may as well write whole thing in it [10:22]
mircea_popescu: just as reference implementation will bake in FG, and users of others are responsible for others' quirks. [10:22]
asciilifeform: whereas the point of using an algorithmic lang is readability & portability. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: where feasible. [10:22]
asciilifeform: FG is a straight serial device tho, it doesn't lock you into any particular form [10:22]
mircea_popescu: irrespective. [10:23]
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman simply opens /dev/ttywherever and reads. [10:23]
mircea_popescu: aaand asm rotate is a straight asm item, it doesn't lock you etcetera. [10:23]
mircea_popescu: "oh but mp, other people do it via shortwave radio" "good for them." [10:23]
asciilifeform: lol [10:23]
diana_coman: aand found the bug at least on this one: rho initialises Ar(0,0) BUT uses then first thing...Ar(1,0) [10:23]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: PeterL by his own admission didn't test the thing at all [10:24]
mircea_popescu: i suppose ye age olde "i didn't know there was interest" at play. [10:24]
asciilifeform: i'm a little surprised that any part of it worked. [10:24]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it is straightforward from algo descriptions in the reference [10:24]
asciilifeform: evidently not straightforward enuff.. [10:25]
diana_coman: the ref is quite good in this respect I'd say, not that hard to follow [10:25]
diana_coman: well, they did not give you the init of variables wtf! [10:25]
asciilifeform: returning to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739533 , i will point out that inline asm is ~likewise~ a gcc-specific syntax. so if you're marrying gcc you may as well use the existing ( as seen in ffa ) rotate intrinsic. [10:26]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 15:20 mircea_popescu: hey, minigame produced reference implementation of ada keccak can well contain inline asm rotation, and who dun like it can do whatever they will. [10:26]
mircea_popescu: maybe i didn't make the inline incantation sufficiently magical, but anyway. "straight asm", what'd you prefer. [10:27]
asciilifeform: if yer doing a great deal of hashing , straight asm could be a win [10:27]
mircea_popescu: "rotation can be directly an opcode item linked as such", how about that. [10:27]
mircea_popescu: tbh, this item aside (it was just given as an ~example~ anyway), i do not expect that on the medium term we will be able to avoid "and here's the special asm library, links at link time with the rest of compiled shit" situations. [10:29]
mircea_popescu: afaik lisp never actually avoided this either. [10:30]
hanbot: meanwhile, what do you call a frenchman wearing sandals? [10:31]
mircea_popescu: a... hm. a vandal ? [10:31]
hanbot: Phillipe Phillope [10:31]
mircea_popescu: ahahaha\ [10:31]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739542 << this is particularily hysterical given the http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pl2303x lulz. [10:33]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 15:22 asciilifeform: FG is a straight serial device tho, it doesn't lock you into any particular form [10:33]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in parkour, http://78.media.tumblr.com/494e71a43850359399171b48966b1dea/tumblr_nl5dlpOjCh1up90kvo1_1280.jpg [10:41]
asciilifeform: i dun make the pl2303 or the related rubbishes [10:44]
asciilifeform: my personal fg is plugged into a serial port. [10:44]
asciilifeform: ( and is made of junkyard parts, given as the actual FG stock is s.nsa inventory, lol ) [10:44]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739561 << possibly i mentioned this, i am making an asm ffa in parallel with the ada item [10:46]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 15:29 mircea_popescu: tbh, this item aside (it was just given as an ~example~ anyway), i do not expect that on the medium term we will be able to avoid "and here's the special asm library, links at link time with the rest of compiled shit" situations. [10:46]
asciilifeform: but the latter is to be the reference, and the former -- i 'hand compile' ~from~ the reference [10:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you think anyh of that is relevant ? [10:50]
mircea_popescu: "my personal fg is plugged into serial port and my personal ada keccak is plugged into iron on which asm works". da fuck special pleading is this. [10:51]
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739523 << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-B-2.html [10:59]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 15:03 asciilifeform: gcc offers a built-in rotate 'illicitly', but not a portable access to carry flag. because ALSO run by wreckers. [10:59]
apeloyee: it's a part of the standard, but, sadly, optional. [11:01]
apeloyee: however... [11:01]
apeloyee: !#s alternatives to gnat [11:01]
a111: 1 result for "alternatives to gnat", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=alternatives%20to%20gnat [11:01]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rs232 is a 1960s standard, and doesn't go away simply because wintel stopped including the plug on the mobo. and world's simplest and most widely-supported standard for digital comms, moar so than ethernet ( i have whole pile of devices with 0 nic but several serialports ) , and will remain, regardless of what wintel does. [11:09]
asciilifeform: so i dun see how 'special plead' [11:09]
asciilifeform: apeloyee: i never grasped the lunacy of 'standard with optional pieces' [11:09]
asciilifeform: back to rs232 -- it's the lingua franca . not the most snobbish ibm mainframe (which even eschewed ascii) , nor the most orcish bk0010 , nobody, ever omitted serial port. until 2010s, obummer-era pc junk. [11:15]
asciilifeform: if you dun have serial, you dun have a comp, in entirely the same way that if you cannot read latin letters you are not literate. [11:16]
asciilifeform: ( nitpickers will note that rs232 implies particular voltages . and yes, you need a voltage converter to use ttl (e.g. fg) with actual rs232. which is inevitable, because i did not want to put a 200kHz-oscillating 5v to plusminus12v chip on fg. ) [11:19]
asciilifeform: you likewise need exactly same voltage converter for pogo , and most other small devices. [11:19]
asciilifeform: but the logical protocol is classical rs232, 115200/8/1/noparity. [11:20]
asciilifeform: to try to make analogy between world's single most supported electrical standard after 220v mains socket, and intel turdolade, is beyond ludicrous. [11:21]
* asciilifeform bbl, meat [11:25]
apeloyee: motherfuckers, there is not a single comp made in 40 years that doesn't have a carry flag. << *excluding non-actual computers. [11:32]
apeloyee: risc-v wreckers specified no carry flag, for instance [11:41]
apeloyee: on novel physical substrate << you must be designing not just post-quantum, but post-thermodynamic crypto. :P [11:56]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and "asm rot" is a standard etc. [12:02]
mircea_popescu: "doesn't go away just because intel stops including it" to ~same degree. [12:02]
mircea_popescu: to put the point on its proper footing : convention is convention, no different than any other convention. convention doth not become physical law through wide adoption, irrespective how extensive that wideness, in headcount, time, whatever. [12:06]
mircea_popescu: if the convention can be "you'll need a serial capable machine", as it HAS to can be, then convention can also be "you'll need a cpu with ror/rol implemnented". whether it is decided to make it so has no bearing on whether it could be decided to make it so. that's a 1 : it could be. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: and so back to the original, there can't "not be alternatives" to gnat. leaving aside the in principle argument, there's alternative by example : expose the cpu instruction and woe to anyone who won't/can't/doesn't. [12:09]
mircea_popescu: and dang, why is this bch so totally taking over! [12:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: point is, that is no longer an ada proggy. [12:26]
asciilifeform: you lose the guarantees. [12:27]
mircea_popescu: well, the part that's ada is ada and the part that dun work or isn't wanted in ada... isn't ada. [12:27]
mircea_popescu: just like irl. [12:27]
mircea_popescu: gcc or w/e you use as a compiler,. for instance, also not an ada proggy. ada dun even try what lisp tried and failed to obtain, ie, a full universe. [12:28]
asciilifeform: aaactually [12:28]
mircea_popescu: yes yes [12:28]
asciilifeform: gnat is an ada proggy. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: (and provides its own inline asm too) [12:28]
asciilifeform: but as we discussed in old thread, the single most serious problem of ada, is that it is quite difficult to implement an adatron. esp if you actually go for standard compliance. [12:29]
asciilifeform: it isn't a straight imbecile mapping to the idjit cmachine cpu, as c is. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: so then. [12:29]
asciilifeform: standard compliance (we also had thread) is a massively underappreciated thing. it is why, e.g., diana_coman was able to take the serpent thing and build it, cleanly and without change, 20+yrs after its writing [12:31]
asciilifeform: and why phf is able to execute 40 y.o. macsyma , ditto [12:31]
mircea_popescu: history is traditionally anti-valuable to the plebs. [12:31]
asciilifeform: ( and why my 1980s serial boxen still work, etc ) [12:31]
asciilifeform: nao this is troo [12:31]
mircea_popescu: gets in teh way of all that justwantto. [12:32]
asciilifeform: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-04#1514935 [12:32]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-04 19:59 mircea_popescu: but it's certainly quite deep. the vermin doesn't merely aim to a comfortable existence, but more importantly to a memory-less situation. [12:32]
mircea_popescu: incidentally, what's the ms-dos gnat compiler ? also gcc ? [12:32]
asciilifeform: also [12:32]
asciilifeform: it dun do 16bit mode, sadly, tho [12:32]
asciilifeform: and afaik nobody ever did [12:33]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in useless tards, https://www.adacore.com/developers/development-log/NF-503-D817-011-gnat [12:33]
asciilifeform: i see eggog [12:33]
mircea_popescu: me too. [12:33]
mircea_popescu: aand in the same vein : http://www.ada-programming.info/ASM_86_file_for_use_with_GNAT_for_MS_DOS_jQxM.html [12:33]
asciilifeform: btw http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739595 is entirely correct, and quite surreal [12:34]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 16:41 apeloyee: risc-v wreckers specified no carry flag, for instance [12:34]
mircea_popescu: "Cloudflare Always Online allows you to read this idiotic banner on content which, unlike cloudflare, is actually valuable and no longer around." [12:34]
asciilifeform: the wreckers DELIBERATELY, unabashedly wrecked bignum performance for all time on their idiot shitiron [12:34]
asciilifeform: 'it ruins the pipeline' [12:34]
asciilifeform: the sheer epic cixi... [12:34]
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, what does carry flag ruin ? [12:35]
asciilifeform: 'introduces linkage between pipeline stages' [12:35]
mircea_popescu: what pipeline ? the cpu execution pipeline ? [12:35]
asciilifeform: aha [12:35]
mircea_popescu: ok this must be the dumbest thing i heard this week. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: why specifically the carry flag as opposed to you know, any other flag ? [12:36]
mircea_popescu: and for that matter any register ? [12:36]
asciilifeform: it's got no flags iirc. [12:36]
asciilifeform: the only way to detect overflow on risc-v is the algo i used in ffa. [12:36]
asciilifeform: with the extra xor and sub etc. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: "your mul was executed but we refuse to tell you what it came to because you might end up using that result somewhere" ? [12:37]
asciilifeform: aaha. [12:37]
asciilifeform: and, it gets 'better', risc-v is the Official(tm)(r) OpenSores cpu arch. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: i thought risc had a buncha cond flags [12:37]
asciilifeform: other riscs. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: ah. [12:37]
asciilifeform: but not the Troo RMS Linux Phoundation risc . [12:37]
mircea_popescu: apparently there's a lot i don't understand. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: such as... why ? [12:38]
asciilifeform: why wreckers wreck ? [12:38]
mircea_popescu: so there's no SWI in rms-risc ? [12:38]
asciilifeform: interrupt ? [12:39]
asciilifeform: it has interrupt, and jumps. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: no moar BL NV/EQ either ? [12:39]
asciilifeform: it's got jumps. but they blow the pipeline. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: is this actually used for anything ? [12:40]
asciilifeform: it is 'used' for 'being The Next Troo Libre RMStronic Cpu Arch' [12:40]
asciilifeform: same as hurd is 'used' . [12:40]
mircea_popescu: no but i mean concretely. [12:40]
asciilifeform: moar concretely they go around propagandizing that if you build a fpga board you gotta use it, because 'mips is patented' ( in what country ? even in usa patent is 25y ) or 'risc-v is simplest' ( uh, nope ) and other idiocy. [12:41]
asciilifeform: but nobody afaik sells a siliconized hard implementation of it. and i dun expect that anyone will. because wtf. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: so conference fodder, a buncha slideshares. cool. [12:41]
asciilifeform: they also managed to waste the time of compiler back-end people, linux kernel folx, etc. with it. [12:42]
mircea_popescu: can we not talk about it anymore when discussing risc ? the concept isn't actually without merit, as such. [12:42]
asciilifeform: so it's a first-class wrecking. sorta like what llvm used to be prior to apple crowning it. riscv is waiting for its apple. [12:42]
asciilifeform: risc is a massively broad item [12:42]
asciilifeform: i.e. 'reduced instruction set' comp [12:43]
mircea_popescu: "this cisc thing is too complex,. make a simple one" "why, so there can within a decade 'exist' a thousand different simplicities ?" [12:43]
asciilifeform: 'risc-v' is a well-crafted attempt to steal the name, much like gypsies tried to steal even the name of the country they lived in [12:43]
mircea_popescu: ah, the whole "let's call gypsies romani now" thing ? [12:44]
asciilifeform: aaha [12:44]
mircea_popescu: some dudes organized a "congress" in 1971 in, of course, london. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, no romanian gypsies participated) [12:45]
mircea_popescu: they did lift a 1930s "gypsies of romania" congress flag tho. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: anyway. lulzy outshot of this megalomaniacal protestant thing ("world council of churches"). [12:47]
asciilifeform: loldon, the go-to leprosorium for 'governments in exile' of all sorts, eh [12:47]
asciilifeform: poles, ukrs, gypos [12:47]
mircea_popescu: not exactly. the place where pacepas went before dc was established, cca 1970s/1980s [12:48]
asciilifeform: it's mildly surprising he didn't end up in london [12:48]
asciilifeform: with rezun [12:48]
mircea_popescu: ah, right, post-ww2 reorg of gypsies also produced the gelem gelem thing [12:50]
asciilifeform: 'The lack of a carry bit complicates multiple-precision arithmetic – GMP, MPFR ... RISC-V does not detect or flag most arithmetic errors, including overflow, underflow and divide by zero ... Most popular programming languages do not support checks for integer overflow, partly because most architectures impose a significant runtime penalty to check for overflow on integer arithmetic and partly because modulo arithmetic is sometim [12:50]
asciilifeform: es the desired behavior' didjaknow! [12:50]
mircea_popescu: twas a dubious time, lots got killed in the war, which is how eg lithuania ended up with ~none [12:51]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what do i get from divide by 0 ? rng ? [12:51]
asciilifeform: 'undefined' i bet. [12:52]
mircea_popescu: yes but experimentally. [12:52]
* asciilifeform not tried [12:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/8mp39 << from horse's mouth [12:52]
asciilifeform: '-1 was value seen in other simple implementations and drops out of simple hardware implementations.' [12:53]
mircea_popescu: so they use the register as an error flagh [12:53]
asciilifeform: that's not an error flag -- negative 1 is a legitimate result of dividing, e.g., 100 by -100 [12:54]
asciilifeform: to say 'error flag' is not in line with reality of the situation -- the only correct answer to div-by-0 is eggog. and eggog != 'returns a value just like actual non-by-0 division might' [12:54]
mircea_popescu: what i mean is : the fact that div by 0 produces a non-uniform distribution of bits in the register suggests to me that it is NOT as flagless as it aims to pretend. [12:55]
asciilifeform: it isn't distinguishable from a conceivable legit division. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: gotta keep up to our representations, neh. [12:55]
asciilifeform: fwiw i know why it's -1 [12:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think i do too [12:55]
asciilifeform: if you remove the div0 trap from ffa, you end up likewise with a reg full of 1s. it's what knuth division produces when given a 0 divisor. [12:55]
mircea_popescu: ~not honestly trying to divide. [12:56]
asciilifeform: well it 'tries' and tries... [12:56]
mircea_popescu: ah, produces all-bits-set huh [12:56]
asciilifeform: aha. [12:56]
mircea_popescu: ok i take it back, this actually makes sense. [12:56]
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel [12:58]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [12:58]
asciilifeform: just when i thought d00d must've vysotskyed long ago [12:59]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform nah. Same old thing -- selling M, treading bitch niggas and getting ~nowhere fast. [13:01]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: why 'getting ~nowhere' despite 'selling' ? [13:01]
gabriel_laddel: ~1 sale a month since last wave isn't enough. [13:02]
gabriel_laddel: Could do more, but my foot is busted & surgery takes ages to schedule b/c US 'healthcare' isn't etc. [13:03]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> im getting at least 4, so. proceed. << Ok, Math/Communication continues [13:03]
gabriel_laddel: Speaking of which, am going to be performing self-amputation of right foot as it is in the way + I don't trust or want US doctors. [13:04]
asciilifeform: ugh [13:04]
gabriel_laddel: Anyone who gives me good resources (pubmed refs etc) can have the video whenever I get around to it [13:04]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ah sorry my bad, week/month nm << Number is strictly what the spot on the rack costs. Prototype "Basic Box" (AMD A8 5545 machine) should be arriving today for evaluation. [13:06]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: What's going on with the foot? [13:06]
BingoBoingo: Why not strap it into boot and let heal as it may [13:07]
mircea_popescu: you can't do self-amputation. [13:07]
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo right heel is totally shattered and collapsed into my upper foot. [13:07]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: iirc ( but for some reason can't find in log ) d00d fell off a roof [13:07]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu why not? [13:08]
trinque: what the fuck. [13:08]
mircea_popescu: the medieval standard is "saw the bone and sink the stump in hot oil". this works, but you'll pass out. has to be a third person. [13:08]
mircea_popescu: moreover, the ~ only good thing to come out of the us is trauma medicine. [13:09]
mircea_popescu: makes 0 sense to eschew THAT part of it [13:09]
BingoBoingo: Also if amputaing taking off only the foot leaves small selection of expensive annoying prostheses. Knee offers more options [13:09]
mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was expecting self-hacking is in the pipeline since about a year ago. [13:10]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo well, half tibia. what knee. [13:10]
trinque: some form of self-harm was never in question [13:10]
mircea_popescu: anyway. stupid idea, try something else. [13:11]
asciilifeform: i dun think we ever heard the full story of the roof thing either [13:11]
mircea_popescu: the elliot one or the gabriel one ? [13:11]
asciilifeform: the latter [13:11]
trinque: whatever comes of it, it's going to compress into "I'm not qualified to be free" [13:11]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu Glad I brought this up. Am insured, have option of surgery. [13:12]
mircea_popescu: where's that beautiful delusionist mage thing. [13:12]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Seriously get styling leather boots "Redwing Heritage" or sane world alternative (new, not broken in). Powder limb with with miconazole poweder and strap into the boot. [13:12]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: so waitasec wai hacking off own leg then [13:12]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel just go into er sometime that's not crazy (ie, not sunday at 4:10 am, not right after a shooting rampage etc. they'll sort it out) [13:12]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Faster! [13:12]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform surgon irritates me on a personal level + the first time stanford tried it, they fucked up [13:13]
mircea_popescu: uh. [13:13]
ben_vulpes: how did you even come to fall off the roof, dude? [13:13]
trinque: "they fucked up turning my chalk dust of a heel into a foot again" [13:13]
* trinque goes to perform constructive self harm at the gym [13:14]
gabriel_laddel: Fed me too much fluid prior to anaesthetic, which flooded lungs when knocked out. Ended up in ICU for 4 days. [13:14]
mircea_popescu: lol sounds like you've got a decent malpraxis case. [13:14]
BingoBoingo: Seriously, gabriel_laddel How many rack units do you want to lease once lawyer loves the surgeon's butthole a bit? [13:15]
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo I can't parse that. [13:15]
mircea_popescu: lol [13:15]
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes I jumped from one roof to the other with electricity. [13:16]
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes grabbed edge but couldn't pull myself up. [13:16]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: You are going to get a lawyer. Your lawyer is going to probe the surgeon's colon with his suing member over that lung fluid thing. You will have money. Might as well rent some rackspace and grow your small business. [13:16]
BingoBoingo: <gabriel_laddel> ben_vulpes grabbed edge but couldn't pull myself up. << Most other Americans can't do pull ups either. [13:17]
ben_vulpes: that's a pretty novice anaesthesia mistake [13:17]
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes Stanford hospital is a scary place. They lied to me MANY times about how many xrays I'd get, that they'd let me get copies... [13:18]
BingoBoingo: Well, you get copies from copy office [13:18]
BingoBoingo: Just haven't knocked the right door to find it yet? [13:19]
mircea_popescu: the lung flood anesthesia thing is pretty much textbook medical tort by now. [13:19]
ben_vulpes: i wonder if there's some "we're a learning hospital, might kill ya, gonna bill ya" going on [13:19]
ben_vulpes: scuse me, "teaching hospital" [13:19]
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes yep. [13:19]
mircea_popescu: "plox sign this here release" [13:20]
ben_vulpes: also, does your insurance somehow only cover the stanford hospital? [13:20]
mircea_popescu: lulz of all time. "say what ?" "you know, in case anything happens..." "yeees ?" [13:20]
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes I have nfi. Never used insurance before. [13:20]
ben_vulpes: because still on parental plan and they work at the department of bezzletronic edumacation ? [13:20]
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> scuse me, "teaching hospital" << Does not indemnify [13:20]
gabriel_laddel: Will compile a report with names of doctors & so forth from paperwork I have, this adhoc bs is silly. [13:21]
gabriel_laddel: (and my fault, of course) [13:21]
ben_vulpes: hey, show up with a crazy story, get a bunch of crazy questions [13:21]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ben_vulpes wait, wait, they came up with a loophole in the whole "Standard of care" scam ? "as long as you doctor for stanford, you get to opt out of the usg lawyer insanity" ? [13:21]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Open a phone book. Find the second biggest lawyer ad (i.e. takes one whole page instead of two) call them. today [13:22]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i have no idea what eldritch magick the stanford lawyer brigade has worked up [13:22]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: They have not, but they will play like they have until you get specialist lawyer involved [13:22]
mircea_popescu: ah. i see. [13:22]
ben_vulpes: probably ^ [13:22]
BingoBoingo: Specialist being exactly the sort of lawyer who runs ads on daytime tv [13:22]
ben_vulpes: reminds me, i have my own willful violation of patient privacy case to get the ball rolling on [13:22]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: who has a phone book tho [13:23]
mircea_popescu: it'd be pretty sweet for them if they manage, imagine the wonder "either slave for us or die out in the insane wilds". ideal stanfordism. kinds see why they'd pretend like it's the case -- in the hopes one day they can make it be the case. [13:23]
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Surprisingly most doctor's offices [13:23]
BingoBoingo: <gabriel_laddel> Will compile a report with names of doctors & so forth from paperwork I have, this adhoc bs is silly. << You have no need to do this. Lawyer handles [13:23]
mircea_popescu: what's the take by now ? 45% ? [13:24]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Unsure. Varies county by county within each state [13:24]
mircea_popescu: a [13:24]
BingoBoingo: And the attraction of a Stanford for a doctor is exactly "take this salary, we'll put you on our insurance" [13:25]
mircea_popescu: aha. [13:26]
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo having dated an aspiring stanford doctor -- is where the failed engineers go. [13:27]
BingoBoingo: This means your remora of a lawyer has to be a specialist at this. It isn't podunk Doctor's malpractice carrier. It's Stanfords. [13:27]
BingoBoingo: The key to the US med mal racket however, is speed. You call the fucking lawyer TODAY gabriel_laddel [13:28]
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo am in el camino hospital right now, getting a phonebook & phone.. [13:28]
BingoBoingo: !!Up gabriel_laddel [13:29]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [13:29]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Does your room have a TV? [13:29]
ben_vulpes: this is a surprising turning point, gabriel_laddel actually taking instruction [13:29]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: If your room has TV watch trashy daytime TV and count the commercials each lawyer has. [13:30]
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo am here to visit a friend in psyc ward, totally unrelated to my issue. [13:30]
ben_vulpes: tmsr as higher power of last resort [13:30]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in strange swellings, http://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1wh8pw3hP1rs9xqgo1_1280.jpg [13:30]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Still, watch the tv with friend. Have him check your count [13:30]
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: tsmr as the only honest, straightforwards, USEFUL collection of humans I'm aware of... [13:31]
mircea_popescu: makes two of us. [13:31]
ben_vulpes: in other news, the anti-flirt brigade brought a democrat down today "al franken" [13:34]
mircea_popescu: o noes. [13:34]
ben_vulpes: but it couldn't happen, pantsuit tools clearly can only ever be used by them against their enemies [13:35]
ben_vulpes: no troo pantsuit! [13:35]
mircea_popescu: well, in that they're not so much tools as collected nonsense. [13:36]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker market all [13:36]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a valid (1 more message) [13:36]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [13:36]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7747.8, vol: 16460.21925547 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7733.4, vol: 65530.71994791 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7630.0, vol: 8159.70132689 | Volume-weighted last average: 7726.67030894 [13:36]
mircea_popescu: holy. [13:36]
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> in other news, the anti-flirt brigade brought a democrat down today "al franken" << Oh, is he the one who molested the black muscle guy? [13:37]
mircea_popescu: i thought bitcoin cash was taking over, wtf happened. [13:37]
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel started taking instruction? [13:38]
BingoBoingo: !!up PeterL [14:05]
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes. [14:05]
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739503 << http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/NrPiu/?raw=true << the 0,0 row is not moved and not shifted (actually the paper calls it shifted by 0), I think the function should return full 0 state if fed a full 0 state [14:07]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 14:37 diana_coman: PeterL, did you test your permutation step functions on that keccak implementation? when I feed rho a full-zero state it seems to end up with non-zero output [14:07]
PeterL: I guess that was more answering http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739548 [14:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 15:23 diana_coman: aand found the bug at least on this one: rho initialises Ar(0,0) BUT uses then first thing...Ar(1,0) [14:17]
PeterL: rho starts with setting Ar(0,0) to A(0,0), then loops over the rest of the Ar(0,1) to Ar(4,4) so the function does set all 25 lanes [14:18]
PeterL: A being the input array and Ar being the output array I was trying to follow notation as in the paper, but they use a and A, which ada does not allow [14:21]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom, https://twitter.com/getongab/status/930572995306721280 [14:31]
mircea_popescu: lmao what is this ridiculous nonsense ? [14:35]
diana_coman: PeterL, hm it seems though to end up with funny stuff if the output array is not initialised [14:35]
diana_coman: will look at it again [14:35]
diana_coman: !!up PeterL [14:36]
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes. [14:36]
mircea_popescu: rando indian is somehow in a position to speak for "ethereum", an on-again-off-again acquarium of rank imbeciles who couldnt manage to as much as paint the basement they inhabited, if it came to it ? [14:36]
mircea_popescu: too many failure levels. who the fuck is vinay gupta and what the fuck is ethereum to opine on things ? [14:36]
ben_vulpes: > Attempting to make it culturally and socially impossible for neonazis to migrate to the Etherum platform is, in my opinion, necessary for its survival. We cannot censor, but we can and must fight on every other level to dissuade these people from colonizing our utopian efforts. [14:38]
mircea_popescu: anyway. pretty fucking epic keks. ethereum became a sort of jokecoin after the rape, which i suppose brings the moral home : rape is educative. [14:38]
ben_vulpes: > This is our watch: keep nazis off decentralize uncensorable platforms! [14:38]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes really, ideal ceo from a comedy gold delivery perspective. [14:39]
ben_vulpes: i cannot fathom the confusion of ideas that would lead someone to say such a thing [14:39]
ben_vulpes: brain must have cooked through at burning man [14:40]
mircea_popescu: the french approach : since we know we can't win, might as well burn the stack down in a memorable way. [14:42]
asciilifeform: apre moi le shitdeluge [14:50]
mircea_popescu: better than the doge fizzle. [14:50]
mircea_popescu: (~100% eth equivalent for the 2015 tardcrowd) [14:50]
asciilifeform: oblig: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1735502 [14:52]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-09 19:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile in entomologies, http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/loser.gif [14:52]
asciilifeform: ^ inextricably linked in asciilifeform's head nao with phrase 'since we can't win...' [14:53]
mircea_popescu: o hey, we have a resolution! http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vtDXh/?raw=true [14:53]
mircea_popescu: (thum being thomas umbach, the one man behind the ~one man orchestra involved) [14:53]
asciilifeform: ahahahaha [14:53]
mircea_popescu: hey. decisive beats piddly irrespective of any other considerations. [14:54]
asciilifeform: was gonna say. at least was upfront. [14:54]
asciilifeform: 'we're funded privately' << can you say inqtel folx ? yeswecan! [14:55]
mircea_popescu: nah, moar likely wife's father sorta deal. [14:55]
asciilifeform: inqtel's missing out on the 'next tor' then. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: intel can't possibly throw money at every "allied" orcdom's here's-our-rack thing. [14:56]
asciilifeform: in-q-tel [14:56]
asciilifeform: !#s in-q-tel [14:56]
a111: 11 results for "in-q-tel", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=in-q-tel [14:56]
mircea_popescu: yes yes\ [14:56]
asciilifeform: and at every no. but not so many of these. [14:56]
mircea_popescu: plenty. this is what, 2nd this week ? [14:57]
asciilifeform: (i.e. specifically 'fleadom'-flavoured item ) [14:57]
mircea_popescu: i guess/ [14:57]
mircea_popescu: reich media/wikipedia greatly overstate both the reach and the capital available to teh gestapo. [14:59]
asciilifeform: iirc i dug up & posted the tax filings from inqtel here a few yrs back [15:00]
asciilifeform: iirc added up to 100megabux or so / yr [15:00]
mircea_popescu: did they get moar "oh usg decided to "sell" keyhole to google thereby inqtel has a coupla mn dollars now" sortas items ? [15:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the number is ~same as say "ethereum market cap". if you trust the printers, it's whatever they print. [15:01]
asciilifeform: probably. i have not been keeping up in realtime. [15:01]
asciilifeform: and noshit it isn't as if they pay in btc or gold, 100% printolade-powered item [15:02]
mircea_popescu: if they find four more of the same thing, they can almost pay for that yacht the current saudi boy wonder beached while driving drunk coupla years ago. [15:02]
asciilifeform: and naturally i have nfi what's in the second set of books they keep -- for all i know they ~did~ pay for that yacht. [15:02]
mircea_popescu: "apple could buy russia and inqtel could buy a fifth of mohammad bin salman's drunken romp" [15:03]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no need, saudis are rich. and unlike all the OTHER princes, this one totally uncorrupt and errything :D [15:03]
asciilifeform: lol [15:03]
mircea_popescu: how fucking dumb teh remains of usg.blue must be to re-do the ~exact~ ukraine failure is anyone's guess... [15:04]
mircea_popescu: recall the pics with that tall schmuck and kerry pressed together into a us-made floating sardine can [15:04]
asciilifeform: they've been replaying the exact same program ever since it worked for killing the old shoemaker. [15:05]
mircea_popescu: what the fuck was his name, the eager brunette cocksucker. [15:06]
asciilifeform: usg.blue quite like the stereotypical idjit gambler, wearing ancient crusty shirt he once jackpotted in [15:07]
* mircea_popescu is too lazy to dig the pics up. for all teh diff it makes... [15:09]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ftr, i'm rather doubtful as to actual usg involvement in that. seems a case of "hitchhiker comes across bute, pushes it into the chasm below". well, it's true that "hitchhiker pushed as hard as he could", but it's also true that he didnt make or specifically find bute. [15:17]
mircea_popescu: geological phenomena are not specifically open to human "performance" claims lest we end up inventing a new set of sun priest outfits for ourselves. [15:17]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, asciilifeform unpacks a small crate of b00kz from ru, and finds that the rus-ro dictionary, shrinkwrapped, but inside : item from 1942 ! [15:18]
mircea_popescu: (ie, the false belief that "i pushed - rock obeyed" is dangerous to the "successful" pusher first and foremost -- in a decade or two he finds himself in the laughable position of kerry & friends) [15:18]
mircea_popescu: o hey! [15:18]
asciilifeform: i've picked up 'old-new stock' before, but this is somethingelse. [15:19]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and yes, it was exactly 'jackpot shirt' [15:21]
ben_vulpes: > libre [15:22]
ben_vulpes: > allergic to notion of nato reich [15:22]
ben_vulpes: wat [15:22]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: exactly like every other 'let's tor, let's wank to isidora whorecraft watshername' folx, neh [15:23]
asciilifeform: aka usg.blue [15:23]
ben_vulpes: what does 'blue' indicate here? [15:26]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc originally taken from colours of old usa electoral map [15:27]
asciilifeform: here applies to the 'soft power' species of usgcrat ( in contrast with 'red' , 'weapons of mass destruction!' species ) [15:28]
asciilifeform: think 'tor', 'voice of america', 'internationalkomyooniti' people. [15:28]
ben_vulpes: hm [15:28]
ben_vulpes: is there some 'color revolution' subtext to it as well? [15:28]
asciilifeform: folx in question are the orig authors of the concept, yes [15:29]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/FpOIq << in other 'red' lulz. [15:31]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there's this theory whereby usg oligarchy (ie, the pile of fundamentally corrupt underpinnings of the state, as all state ever is based on corruption nad naught else, which is why colonizers attempt to "root out corruption" in colonial posessions) is split into red section (raytheon and friends) and blue section (stanford and friends) [15:38]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739440 << Update on the proceeding, not-gypsy letter from self's current bank schedule to arrive in 7-10 days. Puts departure around December 1st. Hunting any other sources of delay out. [15:40]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 13:15 mircea_popescu: im getting at least 4, so. proceed. [15:40]
mircea_popescu: there's a great southpark episode explaining how this false dychotomy is intended to work in practice (i'm a bit couintry & im a bit rock and roll item) [15:41]
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8jvEJngh4M << item [15:42]
ben_vulpes: neato BingoBoingo [15:45]
mircea_popescu: i r get notice this exists in proper text format, so let's put it in teh archive then http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/I%27m_a_Little_Bit_Country/Script [15:46]
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: How many RU are you interested in? [16:20]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo learned teh hard sell at the school of hard knocks. [16:21]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: lol gotta get the rack full to make the math work [16:25]
BingoBoingo: Also selling grass seed at the BingoBoingo store [16:26]
* BingoBoingo sells grass seed like so: Are you starting over or overseeding? How big of an area of your covering? These two products are the only things regionally appropriate here. You will buy X bags of A or Y bags of B. Which do you want? [16:28]
mircea_popescu: does it work ? [16:29]
BingoBoingo: Always. [16:33]
BingoBoingo: Protests are met with explanations of their idea's inadequacies. [16:33]
mircea_popescu: men and women equally well ? [16:33]
BingoBoingo: Works smoothest with women under 40. Old women and old men protest most before surrendering. [16:34]
mircea_popescu: the supply store, like a snowball! [16:34]
BingoBoingo: Occasional fool goes for "Kentucky 31" tall fescue instead and wonders why their yard looks like a weedy lime green wheat field later [16:34]
BingoBoingo: Weed control sales interactions are even more hard ball. [16:36]
BingoBoingo: But smoother except for black men who have trouble understanding the mechanics of poisoning and aren't afraid to hide their ignorace through protest. [16:37]
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/mimi-metallurgico-ferito-nellonore/ << Trilema - Mimi metallurgico ferito nell'onore [16:43]
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739830 <- PeterL you are right in that problem with your rho was more subtle: it *should* set all lanes but it didn't because of how new coordinates were calculated basically you lose old x in the process and end up calculating newY as 5*oldY instead of 2*oldX+3*oldY [17:17]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 19:18 PeterL: rho starts with setting Ar(0,0) to A(0,0), then loops over the rest of the Ar(0,1) to Ar(4,4) so the function does set all 25 lanes [17:17]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739909 << oh hey BingoBoingo has place to move to in south amer nao ?? [17:30]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 20:40 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739440 << Update on the proceeding, not-gypsy letter from self's current bank schedule to arrive in 7-10 days. Puts departure around December 1st. Hunting any other sources of delay out. [17:30]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739930 << this was probably the most frequent logical mistake asciilifeform made when writing first draft of ffa ( in particular, the shifts ) [17:32]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 22:17 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739830 <- PeterL you are right in that problem with your rho was more subtle: it *should* set all lanes but it didn't because of how new coordinates were calculated basically you lose old x in the process and end up calculating newY as 5*oldY instead of 2*oldX+3*oldY [17:32]
asciilifeform: always ask 'what happens if the output and input are same memory' [17:32]
asciilifeform: or, worse yet, overlap partially. [17:33]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Have datacenter, working on details that surround that [17:39]
asciilifeform: !~later tell ben_vulpes https://github.com/threonorm/simulisp/blob/master/SCHEME-79/SCHEME-79%20Lisp%20on%20a%20chip.pdf << ( yes, pdf, it's an ancient scan, 1981 ) very spiffy review article by sussman re the famous scheme79 chip also pertinent to anyone writing simple lisptrons of whatever kind [17:41]
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [17:41]
asciilifeform: spyked ^ et al [17:41]
asciilifeform: ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738302 and elsewhere ) [17:43]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:45 phf: it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs [17:43]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: neato [17:44]
asciilifeform: for some reason asciilifeform immediately pictured BingoBoingo living inside a 42u cabinet, diogenes-style [17:45]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, after whatever hotel comes with flight may be living in hostel dorm for first few months. [17:50]
BingoBoingo: Which will of course cost ~100-150 more than fiscal address will [17:50]
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739930 << damn, kindergarten level mistake there. I am used to thinking like in python you can do x,y = y, x+y or whatever [18:04]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 22:17 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739830 <- PeterL you are right in that problem with your rho was more subtle: it *should* set all lanes but it didn't because of how new coordinates were calculated basically you lose old x in the process and end up calculating newY as 5*oldY instead of 2*oldX+3*oldY [18:04]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, http://www.nitehawk.com/rasmit/dsp50.html << 'amateur radio' people. but only linked for the hilarious javascript malware that the dumb schmuck ended up silently hosting, by using 'webcounter' , http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/P3ywj/?raw=true , results in loading http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Z4dlh/?raw=true crapola , [19:24]
asciilifeform: and invites chumper to install 'incognito internet browser plugin' and other joys [19:24]
asciilifeform: culprit : http://www.motigo.com >> 'Create your own website statistics system with visitor counters for free!' etc. [19:26]
mircea_popescu: not just pdf, but a %20 plagued url like it's windows 95 all over again [20:27]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739945 << dun be ridiculous, more expensive than living on boat. [20:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 22:45 asciilifeform: for some reason asciilifeform immediately pictured BingoBoingo living inside a 42u cabinet, diogenes-style [20:28]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739946 << great way to make friends / polish language tho. i'd say mandatory entry point. [20:28]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 22:50 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, after whatever hotel comes with flight may be living in hostel dorm for first few months. [20:28]
mircea_popescu: else if(!("712837" in motigoCounterLoaded)) << lolled. [20:30]
asciilifeform: spoiler: it ~randomly infests some % of clicked links [20:53]
mircea_popescu: i believe the word is "monetizes". [20:54]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, I figure hotel that comes with ticket offers a bit of security when it's needed for things to get to rack. Hostel afterwards because moving to Montevideo during high tourist season (fucking Argentines) [22:09]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-17#1739954 << Not so expensive given my power needs if I get internet connectivity elsewhere [22:14]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-17 01:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739945 << dun be ridiculous, more expensive than living on boat. [22:14]
mod6: finally ate l0g [22:17]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hm ? [22:18]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: If I was housing myself in the rack instead of boxes [22:18]
mircea_popescu: yeees ? [22:19]
* BingoBoingo wonders what timeline is on more seekritive alf-isp [22:22]
BingoBoingo: Anyways collected plan for presence during formative period of TBI in Montevideo is live in hostel, fiscal address and coffee at coworking site, lots of walking [22:24]
mircea_popescu: sound like fun ? [22:28]
BingoBoingo: Very! [22:29]
* BingoBoingo digesting "Pimsleur" to train write head around core of language since... usuage at the BingoBoingo store tends to focus on small subset. [22:31]
mircea_popescu: and in other trilema antiques, http://trilema.com/2012/in-re-hein-hettinga-et-al-v-usofa/#selection-35.0-39.623 [22:41]
* BingoBoingo blogging summary of present status [22:45]
asciilifeform: meanwhile asciilifeform learned that the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-24#1728402 slogan originated from herr ceaușescu [22:53]
a111: Logged on 2017-10-24 22:04 asciilifeform: and also the 'don't know history is like children who don't know their parent' thing [22:53]
mircea_popescu: not sure about origination, but sure, used. [22:53]
asciilifeform: ( graffitiism found all over timis ) [22:53]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-17#1739973 << whole verdict is interesting read [22:57]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-17 03:41 mircea_popescu: and in other trilema antiques, http://trilema.com/2012/in-re-hein-hettinga-et-al-v-usofa/#selection-35.0-39.623 [22:57]
mircea_popescu: aha [22:57]
mircea_popescu: textbook "we give up" by vhs-usa. [22:57]
asciilifeform: and on top of this recall that milk in usa tastes like shit. because pasteurized. [22:57]
asciilifeform: mandatorily, in all 50 states. [22:57]
mircea_popescu: mno. see, i had pasteurized milk, in romania. it was fine. different, but fine [22:58]
mircea_popescu: us milk is UHT'd. this is a different process from pasteurization. [22:58]
asciilifeform: i had both in most recent voyage, could definitely tell the diff b/w joiana and conventional [22:58]
mircea_popescu: yes, because by usg mandate romania moved from pasteurization to uht-ization [22:58]
asciilifeform: but yes, both ahead of ultra-premium in usa [22:58]
asciilifeform: the only way to get joiana-type in usa is to actually own a cow [22:59]
mircea_popescu: uht being "ultra-pasteurization" in the sense sysco is ultra-restaurantization [22:59]
mircea_popescu: (chief difference being that heating milk to 135 degrees for a couppa minutes maillards most of the long fats whereas classical process, half that temperature, did not nor could not) [23:00]
mircea_popescu: (the difference is that 135/1s milk is shelf-stable for up to a year, whereas traditional 72degree/15s milk is shelf stable for maybe two weeks) [23:01]
asciilifeform: btw there exists a next step after this, and the typical 'flyover state' denizen already eats it : powder [23:01]
asciilifeform: i expect it will be mandatory at some point. that, or soy 'milk'. [23:01]
mircea_popescu: anyway. the lower temp thing is 1933 standard, related to the hettinga thing. the process is designed to kill a pathogen that... you don't have to have, and well kept cows don't have. [23:02]
asciilifeform: ( cows! consider, so ecologically ungodly, or whatever ) [23:02]
mircea_popescu: it allowed the move away from farmed cows into the abominable us-style groweries [23:02]
mircea_popescu: so it is evidently counter-productive, not that anyone ever bothered to point this out. [23:02]
asciilifeform: 'hatefact' [23:03]
mircea_popescu: ie, nobody will ever say "mad cow disease exists because usda introduced mandatory milk pasteurization in 1933 taking advantage of the 'overproduction' of milk the usg generated artificially through fucking the currency" [23:03]
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that this is entirely factual, humans INVENTED a new, lethal disease for bos primigenus, BECAUSE retarded usg regulation has the unwelcome effect of responsibility divestment. [23:04]
mircea_popescu: so you know, usg wants to talk about how "companies don't correctly account for their externalities and global warming", provided of course we don't talk about how usg doesn't correctly account for ITS externalities and kreutzfeld-jakobs. [23:05]
mircea_popescu: moar of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739813 [23:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-11-16 18:35 ben_vulpes: but it couldn't happen, pantsuit tools clearly can only ever be used by them against their enemies [23:05]
asciilifeform: bonus is that pasteurization ( and for that matter anything short of incineration ) does 0 against prion. if it were excreted in milk , usa would be depopulated crater long ago [23:05]
mircea_popescu: i lost oxtail soup to these imbeciles, and i will take a pound of flesh and nothing else to make it right. [23:06]
* asciilifeform wonders if gamma sterilization of meat is mandatory yet in usa [23:08]
mircea_popescu: it miught be, considering how terrible usda approved meat is these days. [23:08]
asciilifeform: was introduced for same reason as milk pasteurization [23:09]
asciilifeform: ' Electron-beam treated ground beef and poultry probably will be in supermarkets by late spring 2000' << from http://animalscience.psu.edu/extension/meat/pdf/IrradFctSheet.pdf , full lully at http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/i1qmA/?raw=true [23:09]
mircea_popescu: in fairness not much different from showing the meat a lot of daytime tv. [23:11]
asciilifeform: !#s deinococcus [23:12]
a111: 2 results for "deinococcus", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=deinococcus [23:12]
asciilifeform: ^ see also. [23:12]
mircea_popescu: whoa, THAT is in the logs ? [23:12]
asciilifeform: sure is. [23:12]
mircea_popescu: i r impresst. [23:12]
asciilifeform: as for 'daytime tv', whacking object with high energy particle ( photon or electron, for this case dun matter ) gives free radical. [23:14]
mircea_popescu: but "scientists have reviewed studies", plus denmark, plus the food does not become radioactive. SO ITS OK! [23:14]
asciilifeform: ( as well as random breakdown strange, a la miller urey tube ) [23:15]
mircea_popescu: "running windows does not make the monitor punch me in the face, scientists have found. therefore windows legit os." [23:15]
asciilifeform: not radioactive, no ( until some joker introduces... neutron sterilization, lol ) [23:15]
asciilifeform: oh also pretty great for revving up mutation in the surviving microbes [23:16]
mircea_popescu: there is that. [23:16]
asciilifeform: ( process where various microbes were bred for biowar in su, was not wholly dissimilar from the meat sterilizer... ) [23:16]
mircea_popescu: exactly the process of above, "make regulation to feel important about self in 1933, get new, wholly human made disease by 1973". [23:16]
mircea_popescu: by 2040 we'll have "nobody could have predicted" and "usg tards still respectable / government still needed / state still important BECAUSE ALTERNATIVES UNTHINKABLE!!1" as per usual. [23:17]
asciilifeform: 'Moar Needed Than Ever, Now That We Have Fuckwitz-Brainmelt Disease' [23:18]
mircea_popescu: right. [23:18]
mircea_popescu: "and who created that ?" "dunno." [23:18]
mircea_popescu: "it's not the direct result of having a congress ?" [23:18]
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/11/16/tbi-mid-november-update/ << Bingo Blog - TBI Mid November Update [23:30]
BingoBoingo: ^ Summary of what thing is thus far, comment and especially criticism welcome. [23:31]
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj [23:31]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: notbad. other than the 100M ethernet per rack thing [23:32]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: More can be added to rack. Adding connection as symmetrical dedicated is Mucho Dinero. Adding connecection as asymmetrical is less. [23:34]
BingoBoingo: And irony of ironies, alf and Bingo flip on bandwidth [23:37]
BingoBoingo: Conversation did begin as they all did with 10 to 20 Gbps ask, moved to expected sustained transfer + headroom [23:41]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i see 100M per-box as reasonable low end [23:49]
asciilifeform: that's wat, 4g per cabinet. [23:50]
BingoBoingo: 100 Mbps, guaranteed International speed is 3000 USd and change [23:51]
BingoBoingo: In Uruguay and in HK. [23:53]
asciilifeform: sounds like massive gouge [23:53]
asciilifeform: i can picture the backroom convo, 'hey how many zeros can we glue to the gringo's price' [23:55]
BingoBoingo: Hong Kong happy to offer 10 Gbps at that price... for traffic within Hong Kong (rest of PRC, International, 50 Mbps, 100 Mbps still moar) [23:58]
mircea_popescu: lel tehboingo, isp. [23:59]
mircea_popescu: notbad [23:59]
BingoBoingo: tyvm [23:59]
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