Forum logs for 04 Jan 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
asciilifeform: !!key asciilifeform [00:10]
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7.asc [00:10]
BingoBoingo: !up pumblechook [00:40]
BingoBoingo: pumblechook: Speak! [00:40]
BingoBoingo: !!up pumblechook [00:41]
deedbot: pumblechook voiced for 30 minutes. [00:41]
BingoBoingo: speak! [00:41]
BingoBoingo: In vintage Trilema http://trilema.com/ [00:42]
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2013/der-untergang/ [00:42]
davout: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-03-jan-2017#2221970 <<< not in trb as far as i can tell, i can tell the thing to 'generate' etc. [01:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 01:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595871 << in practice this is how it works, and has, for at least 3 years now. [01:05]
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596097 <<< fixxd [01:06]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 02:18 mircea_popescu: davout your four main pieces are a b and c ? [01:06]
trinque: probably referring to that most miners are using their own strange to mine [01:08]
davout: goes without saying [01:08]
davout: anyway, i think the benefits of extracting/dropping the embedded miner would be quite small in contrast with the benefits of untangling the wallet [01:09]
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596127 <<< engine quitting during take off != guaranteed corpse [01:11]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 02:55 asciilifeform: (possibly davout might have some input) i recently read an american-flavoured thing re pilotage accidents, and it dwelled on 'jp in petrol tank' , insidious condition where the engine ~will~ start but tends to quit ~during takeoff~, guaranteed corpse [01:11]
davout: small planes just land straight back if enough runway [01:11]
davout: larger ME planes will climb on an engine and come back to land [01:11]
davout: the case truly fucked is small plane, short runway, trees at the end [01:12]
trinque: what a place to leave trees [01:14]
davout: trees, houses, water you name it [01:24]
BingoBoingo: Well what is a puny aeroplane doing messing with a righteous tree? [01:50]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-09#1268284 << for the life of me i cannot find the thread to which you're referring here [01:53]
a111: Logged on 2015-09-09 19:07 mircea_popescu: the idea was to make them user-enacted. [01:53]
davout: BingoBoingo: planes are racist obviously [02:36]
BingoBoingo: davout: Nah, just suicidal. So long as some root survives tree has a chance of continuing to tree. Plane has no such faculty for continuing to plane. [02:45]
BingoBoingo: Anyways only 16 days left for Hussein Bahamas to start WWIII and stop Trumpreich [02:47]
davout: asciilifeform: lamport parachute generation hanging == not enough entropy available from /dev/random ? [03:14]
ben_vulpes: http://imgur.com/a/KuPJv << some kind of voodoo magic in there knows i moved that format string around [03:25]
davout: ben_vulpes: just 'inserted some line before and after' [03:46]
ben_vulpes: davout: i think the highlighting is trying to tell me that it thinks that `format t "~{~A~}"' persisted from the previous commit to this one [03:49]
ben_vulpes: notice how the mapcar line is highlight moar red to convey moar meaning [03:50]
davout: yeah, aka oyu inserted some lines before and after, i doubt it'd be very smart about swapping two lines for example [03:50]
ben_vulpes: also the preserved section goes from one line to two, and the diff-o-tron isn't saying anything about the leading paren on that bottom line [03:51]
ben_vulpes: if the dark green indicates "preserved" then it's confusing the opener for (format with the opener for (let [03:52]
ben_vulpes: i have the distinct impression that i am blithering madly to davout [03:54]
davout: ah i didn't notice the two lines merged as one being seen as a move [05:21]
davout: i don't really see asciilifeform's issue with large 'formatting' patches, as long as it can be mechanically established that the changes a patch brings do not change any of the code semantics there should be no problem with arbitrarily large patches [05:33]
davout: story of my life https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/5a/36/0e/5a360eb4adf414c12b1964f454a29f8c.jpg [06:22]
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588758 << doable, but also easy to mess up. [08:15]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:45 asciilifeform: hm for some reason i thought we had autofallover on scriba [08:15]
Framedragger: (i.e., need to think carefully about the value of $time http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588759 but may be useful) [08:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:45 asciilifeform: (if a111 doesn't answer in $time) [08:18]
mircea_popescu: davout i meant as far as actual mining is concerned (in practice). by the time of the gpu era, most people ditched satoshi code for mining. [09:06]
davout: yep, same goes for actual walleting as far as I'm concerned :D [09:08]
davout: so apparently, the electrum folks manage to fit a complete TXOs index in ~20gb [09:09]
mircea_popescu: that's rarer, most wallet users being tardstalkers the solution was "use website" [09:09]
davout: true [09:09]
davout: for the cost of a 20gb index the wallet code can be completely removed, and implemented as a couple light scripts on top of TRB [09:10]
mircea_popescu: i would expect less. [09:11]
davout: that's indexing ~every single~ tx out against addresses [09:12]
davout: no just the unspent ones [09:12]
davout: *not [09:12]
davout: if the responsibility of maintaning the address history is delegated to the wallet, i expect that this index can be massively shrunk [09:13]
davout: and if history is somehow lost by the wallet, it's a rescan away [09:13]
mircea_popescu: aha. [09:15]
davout: i think i like this solution [09:18]
davout: as a first step it can even be implemented without an UTXO index by address [09:18]
davout: have trb rescan the UTXO for each "gimme-UTXOs-pertaining-to-these-addresses" and see how that goes [09:18]
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated lulz, http://trilema.com/2015/internoc24-or-the-crisis-and-its-resolution/#comment-120934 "oh, lalala we can't hear anything" two months later "oh wait, what the guy said would happen happened, our marketing's utterly shot now" "OH I KNOW!!! I WILL FIX EVERYTHING! by going on in the manner that got me raped in the first place, because i'm a speshul snoflake that can!11". [09:24]
mircea_popescu: and you JUST KNOW the conclusion of this will be "mp is bad and evil", in NO FUCKING CASE "i was an idiot and who knew, turns out it's unsustainable". [09:24]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596254 << work out how many bytes it wants from /dev/random. how long it takes for your box to shit that many? that's your wait . [09:34]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 08:14 davout: asciilifeform: lamport parachute generation hanging == not enough entropy available from /dev/random ? [09:34]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596264 << if it isn't apparent to naked eye in ~vtronic~ (e.g., phf's) viewer, it's a total loss of vtronicity. [09:37]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 10:33 davout: i don't really see asciilifeform's issue with large 'formatting' patches, as long as it can be mechanically established that the changes a patch brings do not change any of the code semantics there should be no problem with arbitrarily large patches [09:37]
asciilifeform: 'oh it's the same text except that i ran this-here perl turd on it and trust me that it works as i said on your perltron' is not vtronic. [09:38]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596268 << imho best way would be if it answered normally if a111 is offline [09:51]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 13:18 Framedragger: (i.e., need to think carefully about the value of $time http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588759 but may be useful) [09:51]
mircea_popescu: oh god damned it [10:13]
mircea_popescu: !!key asciilifeform [10:13]
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7.asc [10:13]
asciilifeform: ^ was correct last night, trinque ate it in time [10:13]
asciilifeform: and shouldn't change again (until we retire gpg) [10:14]
mircea_popescu: aite. [10:14]
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/no-such-labs-snsa-december-2016-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), December 2016 Statement [10:38]
asciilifeform: 'Metropolitan Nagoya has literally thousands of people who can write assembly code that you’d literally trust your life to (you have before and will again, unless your sole method of transportation is bicycles), and probably only a few dozen who you’d want working on a web application. Tokyo has more, but still far too few.' << nuts. [11:19]
mircea_popescu: might haver changed in the meanwhile. [12:21]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, herr kako loves us enough to try to make own FUCKGOATS and try to undercut [12:23]
asciilifeform: (or at least thinks.) [12:23]
mircea_popescu: well, schematics published and all, neh ? [12:23]
asciilifeform: aha [12:23]
mircea_popescu: so all the better. [12:24]
asciilifeform: except he dun like the auditability thing [12:24]
mircea_popescu: heh [12:24]
asciilifeform: so is doomed to lolcow [12:24]
mircea_popescu: in fact or in fiction ? [12:25]
asciilifeform: prolly the latter, d00d is almost lethally lazy [12:26]
mircea_popescu: well there's no doom in fiction. [12:26]
BingoBoingo: There's plenty of doom in fiction [12:31]
mircea_popescu: gimme an example [12:32]
BingoBoingo: Well that Poe fellow wrote broody fiction became or more miserable sad sack and drank self into gutter death. [12:34]
mircea_popescu: irl. [12:35]
mircea_popescu: kinda the problem with fiction, either it's "doom" and then a simple word, or else an explanation, which necessarily cuts short. [12:35]
BingoBoingo: Hussein bahamas fictions himself a "way the world works" and dooms plenty well [12:36]
mircea_popescu: one wonders how bahamas reads his own fanfic, really. [12:36]
BingoBoingo: But yeah, didn't consider the construct before replying [12:36]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> except he dun like the auditability thing << wat [12:49]
asciilifeform: ask'im yerself [12:52]
asciilifeform: (and/or see the heathen log) [12:52]
* trinque read, was a snore [12:53]
shinohai: I stopped reading some time ago, same recycled butthurt [12:57]
trinque: asciilifeform: they're telling you to do retarded things with your product to satisfy their own emotional needs [13:03]
trinque: "look I was heard", "I too am smart" [13:04]
mircea_popescu: ahh, those sweet sweet emotional needs. http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-08#864855 [13:16]
a111: Logged on 2014-10-08 19:19 mircea_popescu: einstein never got the damned formula out because luce irigaray didn't see why he'd privilege the speed of light over other speeds that are so much more important to us. and so on. [13:16]
davout: "In the course of the morning Lucy takes in nearly four Bitcents." <<< caught me off-guard [13:23]
BingoBoingo: Seriously how does she make that much? I just assumed the decimal place moved. [13:28]
BingoBoingo: And they work off of some poor folk voucher system instead of actual trb [13:30]
mircea_popescu: i suspect it's a mystery [13:30]
mircea_popescu: but ftr, 4 bitcents ~= 600 rand or so [13:30]
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/dupa-dealuri/ << Trilema - Dupa dealuri [13:32]
ben_vulpes: mnemnion: fix your connection [14:05]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb [14:27]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 8322.88, vol: 3330971.68450000 | Volume-weighted last average: 8322.88 [14:27]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency gbp [14:28]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 899.877, vol: 18608.72076929 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 873.1239, vol: 10171.0279 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 974.88092, vol: 3331938.45020000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 901.583, vol: 47.3423607 | Volume-weighted last average: 974.156629489 [14:28]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [14:28]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1114.92, vol: 18608.80892925 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1076.998, vol: 10171.0279 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1120.0, vol: 43465.49580282 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1201.040358, vol: 3332265.38790000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1116.481, vol: 4211.5242575 | Volume-weighted last average: 1199.0622506 [14:28]
mircea_popescu: run mode engaged huh [14:28]
BingoBoingo: Seems so [14:29]
BingoBoingo: I guess Buterin broke [14:29]
mircea_popescu: unlike last time, bitcoin totally worth >1k nao. [14:29]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo neah, the imaginary ethereum exchange rate went EVEN HIGHER THAN BTC!!111 [14:31]
mircea_popescu: lulz abound. [14:31]
asciilifeform: speaking of tardware: https://archive.is/9l8z8 [14:35]
mircea_popescu: heh [14:35]
asciilifeform: 'unlike our entirely open and untrojaned...' [14:36]
mircea_popescu: aha [14:36]
trinque: just another day on fleanode [14:40]
asciilifeform: flea as in fleadom!111 [14:47]
davout: http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/citations/2017/01/04/25002-20170104ARTFIG00059-peillon-compare-le-sort-des-musulmans-francais-a-celui-des-juifs-sous-vichy.php [15:04]
davout: (in present news and future noose) [15:05]
asciilifeform: 'L'ancien ministre de l'Éducation, pourtant agrégé d'histoire, commet une erreur de dates, puisqu'il y a quarante ans, nous étions en 1977 et que sous le mandat de Valéry Giscard d'Estaing aucun juif ne portait l'étoile jaune.' [15:08]
asciilifeform: win [15:08]
mircea_popescu: lol problems. [15:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw it occurs to me that your proposed padding scheme, while not useful as a rsa padding scheme, nevertheless may be rescued into a very serviceable hash function, which has the notable property that a) acordion and b) user settable output size. something like this : let R be a ring buffer of as many bits as the user specified the output should be, let M be the message. let there be a one bit state machine S = 0 [15:25]
mircea_popescu: . for each bit of M that is read : if 0 state machine gets a null bit added at the end if 1 state machine gets the M%S-th, 2M%S-th, ... nM%S-th bits flipped, for n=bitcount of S if 0 and the M-th % R-th bit = 1 then it is flipped, else it goes back to processing M-1th if 1 and the M-th % R-th bit = M-th % S-th bit then it is flipped, else it goes back to processing M-1th. that sort of thing. [15:25]
mircea_popescu: it has the advantage that it needs an unspecified pile of memory (on average, half the message + half the message) for the state machine, and an unspecified number of operations (on average, 2x as many as message length). [15:25]
asciilifeform: i suggested this, iirc, a day or two ago to ben_vulpes [15:25]
asciilifeform: has down-side of potential ddosability [15:25]
asciilifeform: ( was here, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595999 ) [15:26]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 23:16 asciilifeform: to go back to hashes, and if you for some reason eschew 'when hiring fortune-teller, hire the cheapest', [15:26]
mircea_popescu: ah i musta missed that. but yeah, can craft item that takes a long time to hash [15:26]
mircea_popescu: still, it is ~only way to get hash that doesn't do the things we don't like. [15:26]
asciilifeform: it has another problem, that i never invented yet a pill against, which is that later bits in the turdogram 'count for' considerably less than earlier ones [15:27]
asciilifeform: ideally what you'd want is for ~any~ bitflip to scramble whole thing [15:27]
mircea_popescu: nah, that's what my thing above : because of the state machine, you can't actually tell bit impact. [15:27]
asciilifeform: you can tell that ~last~, for instance, bit, affects at most 1 bit of output. [15:27]
mircea_popescu: every bit can in principle fuck up your R [15:28]
mircea_popescu: this is not true. [15:28]
asciilifeform: oh? [15:28]
mircea_popescu: because state machine keeps growing. [15:28]
mircea_popescu: last bit can in principle affect the whole damned ring. [15:28]
asciilifeform: i'ma have to build a working model of this. [15:28]
asciilifeform: (unless mircea_popescu has one already) [15:28]
mircea_popescu: im not sure the above notation is all that clear, but if any questions i'll gladly answer [15:28]
mircea_popescu: eh i was tempted but im kinda too rusty. [15:29]
mircea_popescu: i wish i had a way to program things in a visual manner, so i could obtain a GIF! animated! of what the algorithm is supposed to do. [15:31]
mircea_popescu: anyone know of a code-to-gif compiler ? i have nfi how one's supposed to do cryptography without it. [15:31]
asciilifeform: i used to use 'mathematica' to do precisely this [15:32]
asciilifeform: it's satanic tho. [15:32]
mircea_popescu: yeah how fucking hard can this be, just take the ast and paint me some squares holy hell. [15:33]
mircea_popescu: "give program, input and desired slide speed" "here's how it went . tick tick tock" [15:33]
asciilifeform: quite exactly what m. does. [15:33]
mircea_popescu: yes but do i have to have mathematica now ? [15:34]
asciilifeform: (d00d was obsessed with state machines, so it has a thing where you define one and it shits out a box with arrow that you can move, stepwise or at x frames/sec, and shits out gifs, etc) [15:34]
mircea_popescu: they're certainly useful here. [15:34]
asciilifeform: well i warned, it is satanic. but there is no human analogue of this tool, sadly. [15:35]
adlai: not a full solution, but i do recall phf mentioning some animation software driven by sexps [15:35]
asciilifeform: it's ~10,000 man-years, in there. [15:35]
asciilifeform: adlai: there always remains the option of writing a human proggy. [15:35]
mircea_popescu: anyway, the general idea above being : you take all the sane parts of working hash functions, and ditch the insanities. so - no magic numbers, inside boxes, as boxes count, etc. use modulo-arithmetic and iterators, and one long cipher box. [15:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah but fuck me, what am i going to do, php against imagemagick ? c++ and qt ? fuck. [15:36]
asciilifeform: there's http://www.sagemath.org but it is very 'open sores' travail arabe. [15:39]
mircea_popescu: i'm half tempted to just write it in php, and have it write out words instead of drawings. [15:39]
asciilifeform: fortran if you like [15:39]
asciilifeform: i'll read it. [15:39]
* asciilifeform sometimes works with a d00d who only knows fortran [15:39]
mircea_popescu: sigh. i guess one has no choice, does one. [15:39]
adlai: please elaborate, what do you mean by "writing a human proggy"? what i meant by "not a full solution" is that there's supposedly a tool out there which does 'half' the job, and obviously some human must write a proggy that does the other [15:40]
asciilifeform: adlai: i meant 'proggy in normal language that is widely available', vs proprietary turdlang [15:41]
asciilifeform: the thing is that there are no known 'human' programming systems, afaik, that give you seamless graphical ast and editable pixel-array linkage [15:42]
asciilifeform: it is not my fault that open sores people are retarded [15:42]
asciilifeform: and cannot, for instance, make anything like a usable cad [15:42]
asciilifeform: or mathematizer [15:42]
asciilifeform: (state of the art in open sores world is still macsyma, circa 1975) [15:42]
adlai: one of the best retorts to rubes asking "why use lisp" is that macsyma still runs [15:44]
asciilifeform: and yes, in m. you can give a state machine transition rule set and get animated gif out the other end. or a .avi. etc [15:44]
asciilifeform: adlai: indeed it does, i put it to actual use at a salt mine [15:45]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency gbp [15:46]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 900.099, vol: 20746.51552853 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 878.1365844, vol: 10763.04551 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 979.762326, vol: 3454721.77850000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 923.966, vol: 45.08264646 | Volume-weighted last average: 978.973790031 [15:46]
* adlai should probably start putting it to use at the saltbox, for home-makework [15:46]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency eur [15:47]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 1062.055008, vol: 20750.93782536 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 1050.001, vol: 374.83284 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 1150.366455, vol: 3455280.01870000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 1059.839, vol: 19240.6780902 | Volume-weighted last average: 1149.33317682 [15:47]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [15:49]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1101.98, vol: 20827.03190928 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1076.626, vol: 10783.45355 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1108.0, vol: 46854.84645942 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1204.160846, vol: 3456018.44630000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1113.0, vol: 4603.83187077 | Volume-weighted last average: 1201.77924892 [15:50]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/01/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-continue-reporting-upwards-volatility-march-to-magenta-continues/ << Qntra - fiat/Bitcoin Interfaces Continue Reporting Upwards Volatility, March to Magenta Continues [16:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/mp_fabulous_hashonator.php [16:47]
mircea_popescu: this is just a mash-up together of elements to show how the concept works. better assemblage is probably possible. [16:48]
ben_vulpes: quite the mashup [17:04]
mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FbmWT/?raw=true << sample run [17:27]
mircea_popescu: pretty sure my implementation has a fence error somewhere because evident parity issues, but anyway. prototype. [17:28]
ben_vulpes: https://blog.medium.com/renewing-mediums-focus-98f374a960be#.8gsm40qwc << "we have no fucking idea how to make money from livejournal in 2017, but that's not going to stop us from lighting our investor's capital on fire and warming ourselves in front of it while lamenting the capitalist system!" [17:46]
ben_vulpes: transformative humbug [17:46]
mircea_popescu: heh [17:46]
ben_vulpes: *investors' [17:46]
mircea_popescu: hey, taleb's among them. [17:49]
ben_vulpes: investor? [17:50]
mircea_popescu: well, he writes on it. [17:51]
pete_dushenski: the worst part of medium is that the images don't archive. this wouldn't be an issue for most republican blogs seeing as they're entirely text, but it's actually quite the bug for fiat writers, taleb included [18:03]
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: busted footnote in your last piece eh [18:03]
* pete_dushenski didn't realise how much eur had weakened relative to usd until bb pointed it out. 1.05 yo! [18:04]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: neato! [18:08]
* asciilifeform looks... [18:08]
pete_dushenski: in unrelated phuctor happenings http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/baltic-servers-xmas-gift-1.jpg http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/baltic-servers-xmas-gift-2.jpg [18:15]
pete_dushenski: straight from lithuania! (is Framedragger familiar with this brand?) [18:16]
pete_dushenski: cheers to mircea_popescu for the regifting [18:16]
mircea_popescu: holy shit they handwrote it ?! [18:16]
pete_dushenski: lol yup. pretty straight and legible too [18:16]
mircea_popescu: more powa to 'em. [18:17]
* pete_dushenski wonders if baltic servers knows how many dreams phuctor is making come true [18:17]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: speaking of which, phuctor is still in repair shop , engine lifted out, cleaning pistons, etc [18:23]
pete_dushenski: old ferrari style eh [18:23]
asciilifeform: aha. [18:24]
asciilifeform: maybe moar of a harley. [18:24]
pete_dushenski: sorta to be expected with performance machines of this calibre [18:24]
adlai: now that's a hearoglyph i haven't seen in a long time! [18:25]
pete_dushenski: ferraris older than ~20yo needed regular engine-out maintenance. every year, two at the most. [18:25]
adlai: pete_dushenski: shana tova akhi! [18:25]
pete_dushenski: cheers adlai :) [18:26]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform does that make any sense / is it useful ? [18:27]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why is R 0....0 in step1 ? [18:27]
mircea_popescu: it starts as that [18:27]
asciilifeform: i mean in 'step 1', not in the start state [18:28]
asciilifeform: it refers to flipping bits, but none get flipped [18:28]
mircea_popescu: yes but since S is 1 bit long no transform takes place (1/2 is 0) [18:28]
asciilifeform: aah [18:28]
mircea_popescu: this is all pure arbitrary, can be done otherwise. [18:28]
asciilifeform: the one slightly confusing bit is where we 'add bit to state machine' [18:29]
asciilifeform: this doesn't have a traditional meaning, i am now trying to puzzle out what is meant [18:29]
mircea_popescu: it simply expands it by one [18:30]
mircea_popescu: if it's 1110 it becomes 11100 [18:30]
adlai: (ash s 1) [18:31]
mircea_popescu: basically it's made so it increases memory and cpu usage. [18:31]
mircea_popescu: calling it "state machine" is kind-of improper as i suppose the result also holds state. a cleaner separation may be advisable, but w/e. [18:32]
asciilifeform: how does the position slide ? [18:32]
mircea_popescu: but yes adlai is exactly right, shift one. [18:32]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform position increases by one each step, at the end of it. [18:33]
asciilifeform: step 3 and 4 seem to have same position into M [18:34]
mircea_popescu: because in some conditions pos also decreases 1 [18:34]
asciilifeform: hm. [18:34]
mircea_popescu: "Because the R bit is 0, we flip it and decrease our position by 1 (but not below 0)" [18:34]
asciilifeform: can haz pseudocode , indented ? [18:34]
asciilifeform: (i'll take the original fortran, too, if it worx) [18:35]
mircea_popescu: you can have the php that spits that out if you wish [18:35]
asciilifeform: aite [18:35]
mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6TW82/?raw=true [18:35]
asciilifeform: ty [18:35]
asciilifeform: adlai looks bored, maybe he wants to translate this [18:35]
* adlai has translated php precisely once in his life, and ain't nobody good time to incf! [18:36]
mircea_popescu: the complains. "oh, you gave pseudocode ? can you make it go step by step ? oh it has, can we see code ? oh is code, can it be different code ?" [18:37]
asciilifeform: no complaints actually [18:37]
mircea_popescu: holy shit at some point will have to sit down and read something! [18:37]
adlai: mircea_popescu: thank you for the sauce though, i was about to puzzle out the exact meaning of "M%S-th" behaviorally [18:37]
mircea_popescu: np np [18:37]
asciilifeform: where's the xor in there [18:40]
asciilifeform: iirc xor is either 'xor' or c-style '^' in php [18:40]
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/veh-patch-post-patch-file-hash-checking-and-overall-improvements << CH - veh patch: post-patch file hash checking and overall improvements [18:40]
ben_vulpes: that title is entirely incorrect [18:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have nfi how php xors or if it even understands anything. implemented as ifs. [18:41]
asciilifeform: from my reading, it looks like an nxor [18:42]
mircea_popescu: right. item is also full of bugs, ftr. [18:42]
asciilifeform: (if a == b : b <= 1 else b <= 0) [18:42]
* asciilifeform enjoying this puzzler [18:42]
* asciilifeform never had occasion to read or write a phptronic proggy longer than a wp config [18:43]
asciilifeform: also ben_vulpes's thing is interesting . [18:44]
asciilifeform: i wonder if he's ready to make own difftron [18:44]
ben_vulpes: study needleman-wunsch is in my todo list [18:46]
ben_vulpes: kinda (gasp) itching to get my fingers into some cpp tho [18:47]
trinque: lewd [18:49]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: out of curiosity, what entails "difftron" ? [18:56]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: are you ready for some ugly ? [18:57]
ben_vulpes: i was hit with the ugly stick at birth, you can't scare me [18:57]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/KAkk0/?raw=true [18:57]
asciilifeform: there. [18:57]
asciilifeform: ^ asciilifeform's past life [18:58]
mircea_popescu: lewd lol [18:58]
asciilifeform: (and yeah it's backwards) [18:58]
* asciilifeform tore this out of a much larger proggy, and its fitness for any practical use is quite questionable, but ought to get the point across [19:00]
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: ty fxd [19:00]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you probably don't need a similarity matrix other than the unit matrix for text diffs, now that i think about it. [19:01]
asciilifeform: so you will have simpler proggy. [19:01]
asciilifeform: (you could try an' do something clever with matrix with deprioritized whitespace, and the like) [19:02]
mircea_popescu: won't that just create a swamp of edge cases ? [19:02]
asciilifeform: nah [19:02]
asciilifeform: just matrix with different nums in it. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: i mean in the "wtf did the differ do" human evaluation [19:02]
asciilifeform: but really you just want to rip out sim-score that's in there and put in one that's a straight =) [19:03]
mircea_popescu: i'm not fucking learning an aminoacid matrix to be able to use diff i tell you that, [19:04]
asciilifeform: i just described how to toss it out [19:04]
asciilifeform: (defun sim-score (a b) (= a b)) ought to work. [19:05]
asciilifeform: then lose everything from start of the paste to init. [19:05]
asciilifeform: well, through (load-sim....) [19:06]
asciilifeform: anyway algo should be clear to ben_vulpes . [19:06]
mircea_popescu: just ftr. [19:06]
ben_vulpes: not immediately, but i will load it up [19:07]
ben_vulpes: is there any sort of spec for "what difftron entails"? [19:08]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: not a formal one, afaik [19:08]
asciilifeform: ideally it'd be 'like classic unix diff but less retarded re, e.g., moves' [19:08]
* adlai wishes he could do this homework instead of that other stuff (integration by parts^H^H^Hhands) [19:09]
ben_vulpes: integration by s.limbs [19:09]
asciilifeform: adlai: imho integration by parts was more interesting than nw [19:09]
* asciilifeform did both homeworks [19:09]
adlai: 'nw'? [19:09]
ben_vulpes: needleman-wunsch [19:09]
asciilifeform: http://www.avatar.se/molbioinfo2001/dynprog/dynamic.html [19:10]
adlai: ah. that typo-collided collided with my other homework, which i am doing. [19:10]
asciilifeform: ^ nw is very often homework in algorithms class [19:10]
asciilifeform: because it is example of 'dynamic algo' [19:10]
ben_vulpes: "dynamic algorithm" is term of art? [19:10]
asciilifeform: aha [19:10]
ben_vulpes: ~= "dynamic programming"? [19:11]
asciilifeform: aha [19:11]
adlai: asciilifeform: incidentally, you may find that /m/-w is a flail in the general direction of "less snoreworthy ATC" [19:11]
asciilifeform: aka memoization [19:11]
ben_vulpes: kewl [19:11]
asciilifeform: adlai: waiwat [19:11]
asciilifeform: there's a sequence-alignment altcoin..? [19:11]
ben_vulpes: mimblewimble [19:11]
asciilifeform: ah lolsnoar [19:11]
asciilifeform: i read the original turd, it was ill-specified [19:11]
adlai: "a privacy and fungibility focused cryptocoin transaction structure proposal" [19:11]
adlai: turds are turds. [19:12]
adlai: thus, 'flail' instead of 'step'. [19:12]
asciilifeform: adlai: even being a connoisseur and collector of crackpotteries , it was not much to work with. [19:12]
adlai: the homework ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556804 ) boils down to "understand wtf weil was on about" [19:13]
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 18:15 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556766 << state its math part sometime. [19:13]
ben_vulpes: in other crackpotteries up asciilifeform's dark alley: http://0100101110101101.org/biennale-py/ [19:14]
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/01/04/the-rich-mans-burden/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The Rich Man’s Burden. [19:15]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lol [19:15]
* pete_dushenski thgouth of mega italian architecture conference / awards programme when saw ben_vulpes' 'biennale' [19:16]
pete_dushenski: thought* [19:16]
ben_vulpes: WHOA [19:17]
ben_vulpes: https://gcaptain.com/maersk-teams-up-with-e-commerce-giant-alibaba-to-offer-online-booking [19:17]
ben_vulpes: take that, flexport and co [19:17]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes slowly moving towards literate code. here's a thought... why not put the comments straight into the patch ? [19:19]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: aye, 'twas a step in that direction [19:20]
ben_vulpes: i did not realize that the patch could contain comments that do not affect its output, is that so? [19:20]
mircea_popescu: you put them in the new file. they show up in the patch [19:21]
ben_vulpes: i could use proper docstrings at that even [19:22]
mircea_popescu: yes. [19:22]
ben_vulpes: i'll think on this [19:23]
ben_vulpes: there is some value in it but as mentioned before i have a c++ itch what needs scratching [19:23]
ben_vulpes: among other things [19:23]
ben_vulpes: bbl [19:23]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'll suggest a 'p-tronic' format for diffs. N\........ specifies N retained-of-a octets (e.g., 5\abcde ) [19:24]
asciilifeform: this is to abolish the line-based idiocy of unix diff. [19:24]
mircea_popescu: lines are good! [19:24]
asciilifeform: lines are crud because they make newline symbol 'magical' [19:25]
asciilifeform: and result , potentially, in megatonne of needless repetition. [19:25]
asciilifeform: (imagine diffing a file containing zero newlines) [19:25]
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to need to know how many octets is the blank lead of a new line [19:25]
mircea_popescu: especially because no tabs [19:25]
asciilifeform: ~you~ don't need to count'em by hand. [19:25]
asciilifeform: let's make example... [19:25]
mircea_popescu: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596525 [19:26]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 00:04 mircea_popescu: i'm not fucking learning an aminoacid matrix to be able to use diff i tell you that, [19:26]
asciilifeform: take sentence 'a': 'i'm not fucking learning an aminoacid matrix to be able to use diff i tell you that' [19:26]
asciilifeform: take sentence 'b': 'i'm quite certainly not fucking learning an aminoacid matrix to be able to use diff i tell you that' [19:26]
asciilifeform: so, one possible diff might be : \4\i'm \+15\quite certainly \80\not fucking learning an aminoacid matrix to be able to use diff i tell you that [19:29]
mircea_popescu: the --- / +++ version is infinitely more readable. [19:29]
asciilifeform: go and diff, e.g., some perl code, and see if you still agree. [19:29]
asciilifeform: when 1 'line noise' character, somewhere in a 140-char line, changes. [19:30]
asciilifeform: and it's a 1 to an I etc. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: perhaps the correct solution is for code to conform to the paradigm. [19:30]
asciilifeform: that's not a general-purpose diff nao, is it. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: it is. [19:30]
asciilifeform: diff gotta eat any 7bit-clean rubbish. [19:30]
asciilifeform: incl. heathenries. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: general-purpose does not mean general-insanity. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: purpose is a subset of possibility. [19:31]
asciilifeform: i dare say that a colourized, phf-style viewer can make the suggested char-differ quite readable in comparison with ye olde unixdiff. [19:31]
* mircea_popescu is very reluctant re this daresay. [19:31]
asciilifeform: worth a try, costs 0. [19:31]
asciilifeform: esp. if ben_vulpes makes a proper aligner. [19:31]
asciilifeform: (he'd have to for either kind) [19:32]
mircea_popescu: i'll give it a look but sounds to me a lot like "rather than learn vim i'll try and make emacs adnotate" [19:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: really idea is stolen from teco [19:32]
* asciilifeform has not so many entirely new idea. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: well, they're rare. [19:32]
asciilifeform: incidentally iirc phf's vtron internally converts diffs to something quite like this form [19:34]
asciilifeform: (for the colour viewer thing) [19:34]
asciilifeform: the one thing i consider a major win here, compactness aside, is the freeness-from-inbandmagic. [19:38]
mircea_popescu: you still use / [19:38]
asciilifeform: no, see, [19:38]
asciilifeform: the ....... in \N\....... can be ANY octets. [19:38]
asciilifeform: incl. \ , 991\\\\\235\9824 , etc. [19:39]
asciilifeform: because the machine knows how may to skip. [19:39]
asciilifeform: *many [19:39]
mircea_popescu: and what is the meaning of \\4 ? [19:39]
asciilifeform: the count. [19:39]
asciilifeform: or you meant of \4\ [19:39]
asciilifeform: which can be a, e.g., \4\ [19:39]
asciilifeform: (retain) [19:39]
mircea_popescu: no, i mean of \\4 [19:39]
asciilifeform: or a \+4\ (add four) or \-4\ (lose next four) [19:40]
asciilifeform: \\4 does zip. [19:40]
mircea_popescu: if i go from "\\4hurrdurr" to "\\4urr" you'll say what, \\4\4 ? [19:40]
asciilifeform: or rather, it is a literal string, and ought to be subsumed in one of the above forms. [19:40]
asciilifeform: any characters found not in one of the 3 above states, make the entire diff nonwellformed. [19:40]
asciilifeform: (throw it out) [19:40]
mircea_popescu: oh i see. [19:40]
mircea_popescu: this is like utf for diffs. [19:41]
asciilifeform: but any octet is legal inside a proper counterstate. [19:41]
mircea_popescu: "we don't use in band but we have not well formed diffs which you can't tell" [19:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: like pkzip, or just about any format since 1962 [19:41]
asciilifeform: and sure as fuck you can tell [19:41]
mircea_popescu: pkzip is not an acceptable plaintext format. [19:41]
asciilifeform: didn't i post , right here, a well-formed-to-naked-eye-but-not-to-vtron vdiff ? [19:42]
asciilifeform: during FUCKGOATS release. [19:42]
mircea_popescu: i dunno ? [19:42]
mircea_popescu: ah the thing where you tried to put A BINARY BLOB through a PLAINTEXT!!!111 format and ended up having to base64 it ? [19:42]
mircea_popescu: i don't want fucking "codepoints" in my life. take your /x855 and shove it, bejaysus. [19:43]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581252 [19:43]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:53 asciilifeform: so i had two base64's png files in there, [19:43]
asciilifeform: it wasn't a blob. [19:43]
asciilifeform: it was valid ascii [19:43]
mircea_popescu: iirc you didn't like the svg. [19:43]
asciilifeform: separate issue [19:43]
mircea_popescu: "valid ascii" != not-blob. base64 is also valid ascii. blob. [19:43]
asciilifeform: incidentally you will blow up on the +++ mine if you try and diff a vdiff. [19:43]
asciilifeform: same mine. [19:44]
mircea_popescu: look, the in-band problem i can sympatize with, but the "let's thus turn text into blobs" i do not. [19:44]
asciilifeform: (it so happens that the original happened on a uuencoded shit, tru) [19:44]
mircea_popescu: not when it comes to clearsign, not when it comes to vpatches, never. text dude. [19:44]
asciilifeform: why have any more mutilation of the text than necessary ? [19:45]
asciilifeform: and why magic newlines. [19:45]
mircea_popescu: because "here's your binary blob" is not an acceptable answer. [19:45]
asciilifeform: why not 1 magical char instead of entire fucking magic words like +++. [19:45]
asciilifeform: it ain't a blob [19:45]
mircea_popescu: it is, yes. the moment it needs a fucking 85 state machine to interpret its meaning it is. [19:45]
asciilifeform: 3 state. [19:46]
mircea_popescu: 3 === 85. [19:46]
asciilifeform: has mircea_popescu ever tried to implement traditional unix diff ? [19:46]
asciilifeform: and see how many states. [19:46]
mircea_popescu: no. [19:46]
asciilifeform: it only looks easy because you are familiar with it. [19:46]
asciilifeform: 'muscle memory, thinking man's worst enemy', who said. [19:46]
asciilifeform: (iirc it was mircea_popescu !) [19:46]
mircea_popescu: idna is coming next isn't it. [19:47]
asciilifeform: iwhat..? [19:47]
mircea_popescu: oh, read up on it, you'd like it. [19:47]
asciilifeform: here's gedankenexperiment. take file of aaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaa (1MB worth.) add, 512kB in, a 'b'. how long is your unix diff ? [19:48]
mircea_popescu: !~google punycode [19:48]
asciilifeform: can you read it ? [19:48]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: What is punycode ? - Learn how to use punycode to register IDNs at ...: <https://www.dynadot.com/community/help/question/what-is-punycode> Punycoder - the IDN / Punycode converter: <https://www.punycoder.com/> RFC 3492 - Punycode : A Bootstring encoding of Unicode for ...: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3492> [19:48]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i negrate the author. [19:48]
asciilifeform: my diff is about a dozen chars. [19:48]
mircea_popescu: this is WRONG. [19:48]
mircea_popescu: your diff must be so painful you ALSO negrate the author. [19:48]
asciilifeform: 'patches must be superbly-commented works of knuthiana' is promisetronic. [19:49]
asciilifeform: (i don't even disagree, that they ought to be.) [19:49]
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to live in a world where people can make patches consisting of 512kb lines of a [19:49]
asciilifeform: it was a somewhat pathological example. but i will point out that in this system , mircea_popescu's tab-corrector patch would be 100% human-readable. [19:50]
asciilifeform: and pedigree-preserving. [19:50]
mircea_popescu: i was aware of that ~then~. [19:50]
mircea_popescu: i didn't bring up the fucking apocalypse to fix some tabs. [19:50]
asciilifeform: incidentally i'm not entirely convinced that v gotta be married to a particular difftron to work. [19:50]
asciilifeform: (any well-formed patch representation is, in principle, convertible to any other) [19:51]
mircea_popescu: and how am i going to apply patches ? there's no such thing as signature-equivalence. [19:51]
asciilifeform: foo.unix.vpatch [19:51]
asciilifeform: foo.mirce_popescus_neato_difftron.vpatch [19:51]
asciilifeform: etc [19:51]
* asciilifeform cleans 'a' key [19:52]
asciilifeform: i do see the merit of nailing it down. but imho unix diff is retarded. [19:52]
asciilifeform: because it mandates that no one ever use a programming lang where +++ occurs, etc. [19:53]
asciilifeform: the reason i keep coming back to this thought is that unix diff results in some pretty barfy lisp vpatches. [19:54]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes might see what i mean [19:54]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596657 << yeah i found this when casually comparing the output of 'pdiff' (phf's version) with that of vdiff [19:55]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 00:43 asciilifeform: incidentally you will blow up on the +++ mine if you try and diff a vdiff. [19:55]
asciilifeform: magical-newlines (unix diff) and parens-sexpr (lisps) is a pretty heavy impedance mismatch. [19:56]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i had a complaint about this a while back, reindenting for multiple-value-bind and destructuring-bind and friends [19:56]
asciilifeform: newline has ~0 syntactic meaning in lisps. [19:56]
asciilifeform: (it is a form of whitespace) [19:56]
mircea_popescu: i could see a convention where genesis specifies diff style. [20:01]
mircea_popescu: but for eg trb work, +++ style is quite at home. it is c after all [20:01]
asciilifeform: trb will probably remain in trad style 4evar [20:01]
asciilifeform: unless folx ~really~ pine for the tabs fix thing... [20:02]
mircea_popescu: if we make the trb-i correct it should work like vtrons, multiple language implementations [20:02]
asciilifeform: aha [20:02]
adlai: is that a version 'number'? [20:03]
mircea_popescu: !#s "trb-i" [20:03]
a111: 4 results for "\"trb-i\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22trb-i%22 [20:03]
mircea_popescu: hm i could have sworn it was used before, "ideal bitcoin" ie the tmsr offering in the summer of forks. bitcoin v2.0, whatever [20:04]
adlai: calling it Bitcoin 2.0 is excellent blanding, prb are permastuck in 0.landia [20:05]
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's in the logs. [20:06]
adlai: but it's correct as a version number, because consensus systems fail correctly together, and "history is written by the victors" [20:07]
asciilifeform: waiwat [20:08]
adlai: students can build multiple impls as hw, but anybody using a forkable client is taking a risk [20:09]
adlai: sure, you can write the whole thing in forth (or lambda calc, or categories, or...), but as the agent said to the provocateur - 'good luck' [20:11]
asciilifeform: adlai: nobody said 'we'll have multiple monkeys writing' [20:11]
asciilifeform: monkeys -- to the monkey house. [20:11]
asciilifeform: http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/73318.html << small lul re folx with crackpot difftrons [20:12]
asciilifeform: folx will do ANYTHING!111 to avoid cracking a book. [20:13]
adlai: asciilifeform: in other wtf, isn't ., isomorphic to ,@!? [20:13]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://experiments.mostafa.io/public/needleman-wunsch << graphical nw demo [20:13]
asciilifeform: adlai: ,@ eats a list neh [20:14]
ben_vulpes: whoa neato [20:14]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: did you see my diff-wut screenshot from last night? [20:14]
asciilifeform: dunthinkso [20:14]
asciilifeform: link [20:14]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596255 [20:16]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 08:25 ben_vulpes: http://imgur.com/a/KuPJv << some kind of voodoo magic in there knows i moved that format string around [20:16]
asciilifeform: where didja get the colours ben_vulpes [20:16]
adlai: asciilifeform: i refuse to get into "clhs doesn't actually say you're not allowed to give it an atom" territory [20:16]
asciilifeform: this dun look like phf's [20:16]
asciilifeform: adlai: why you gotta abuse [20:16]
asciilifeform: adlai: fork was not made to pick yer nose with [20:17]
ben_vulpes: we can therefore we must! [20:17]
* ben_vulpes to find a fork [20:17]
asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wakes up, he might have a less gentle and more memorable way to phrase this truism. [20:17]
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no, it's not phf's, it's magit and i think ediff [20:17]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i have nfi how these work, but maybe bramcohen's algo (linked earlier) [20:18]
asciilifeform: it's the sort of crackpottery that could have made its way into git toolz [20:18]
* adlai is willing to enter "why are you giving functions atomic bodies" territory, but we probably both have better stuff to do [20:18]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm not even asleep. just, by now, barely reading adlai, the stubborn anal childhood is not nearly as interesting as the subject imagines. [20:18]
asciilifeform: d00d must be back on the sauce [20:18]
asciilifeform: adlai, that is [20:18]
mircea_popescu: hey, an indiancandy there's gotta be. [20:19]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: your screenshit looks like it could very well have come from bramcohenalgo [20:19]
asciilifeform: (forward-then-backward) [20:19]
adlai: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596753 << "and i think to myself... what a wonderful word" [20:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 01:18 asciilifeform: d00d must be back on the sauce [20:20]
* adlai has been 'clean' of sauces other than mphash etc for longer than he usually keeps [20:20]
asciilifeform: adlai: dontcha have an arbitragebot that oughta be running in redline now [20:21]
asciilifeform: and needs oiling ? [20:21]
asciilifeform: with exchanges riding ye olde goxcoaster nowadays. [20:22]
ben_vulpes: http://www.a-k-r.org/mphash/ << adlai dis? 404? [20:22]
adlai: seeing as it's a tool, not a "manned missile" (spot the sauce!), scalpl's on vacation during the semester [20:23]
ben_vulpes: missing out on all that sweet vix [20:23]
adlai: meh, btcfiat is such a saturated market anyways. there's probably free energy to minimize these days, but i couldn't have known that a month ago [20:24]
adlai: much better to have coins on local iron than 'riding ye olde gox' [20:25]
asciilifeform: what exactly did adlai think a month ago, that rates would stay magically ~frozen for all eternity ? [20:25]
* adlai was speaking metaphorically. scalpl has been asleep for several months already. [20:25]
ben_vulpes: weren't you gambling opm? [20:27]
adlai: yeah, on other people's "oe" [20:29]
ben_vulpes: i didn't realize malt liquor was that fungible [20:30]
asciilifeform: hey hey, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-23#1572755 [20:31]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-23 16:47 asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.whiskyinvestdirect.com [20:31]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Still, tomorrow any or all of these fiat emphasized fiat/Bitcoin interfaces could tomorrow offer" << are the tomorrows some stylistical thing i dun get ? [20:35]
BingoBoingo: editing lapse, correcting [20:36]
BingoBoingo: fxd [20:37]
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> i didn't realize malt liquor was that fungible << It is! [20:39]
ben_vulpes: i still have no idea what adlai meant by "oe" [20:42]
adlai: with apologies to John Cleese - "this, sir, is an ex-asset!" [20:45]
adlai: context for heathens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE [20:46]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1591568 << finally worked through this, solid tome, thank you phf [20:46]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 02:23 phf: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html this is the canonical document on error handling in common lisp. it's long and dense, because powerful machinery [20:46]
asciilifeform: btw how come nobody screamed when i suggested needleman-wunsch, 'omfg what are you smoking, it's space AND time-quadratic!!!' [20:48]
adlai: globally optimal results come at a cost? [20:49]
adlai: premature optimization corrupts absolutely? [20:49]
asciilifeform: keep the motherfucking file small [20:50]
asciilifeform: solved. [20:50]
BingoBoingo: I present the Elliot descended of Aristoocracy and Malay in England https://archive.is/l1EDi [20:52]
asciilifeform: (incidentally you can cheat, mircea_popescu-style, by dividing the diffables into segments using 2+ newlines as divmarkers, and nw-ing the resulting segments, then outputting the diffs.) [20:53]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596739 << while this does give me a diff envy, i'm cooking something that asciilifeform might find useful http://glyf.org/tmp/press-tree.png [21:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 01:16 a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 08:25 ben_vulpes: http://imgur.com/a/KuPJv << some kind of voodoo magic in there knows i moved that format string around [21:09]
adlai: not qntraworthy, but some altlike-thingy-developer got his face leaded in last week for owning a crossbow, or something along those lines: http://archive.is/lIVyW [21:15]
asciilifeform: phf: oooh yes [21:57]
asciilifeform: exactly what i asked for [21:57]
asciilifeform: veeery spiffy [21:57]
mircea_popescu: check the shit out! [21:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still no liky lines ? hm? HM ? [21:58]
asciilifeform: i did say 'trb worx great with trad diff' neh [21:59]
mircea_popescu: yeah, you did. [21:59]
asciilifeform: prolly most cpp proggies will. [21:59]
asciilifeform: ada also. [21:59]
mircea_popescu: what's the lispworld diff utility do ? [21:59]
mircea_popescu: teco ? [22:00]
asciilifeform: tecoistic, aha, as pictured in example earlier. [22:00]
asciilifeform: via adlai's link, https://archive.is/r6TbL [22:03]
asciilifeform: '“‘Hi Nick, it’s Sam. The police are raiding my house,’” he said.' [22:04]
asciilifeform: lulzy, brits haven't yet picked up the american tradition of cutting off victim's phones before executing a hit [22:04]
asciilifeform: '“‘Sam, put your (expletive) hands up . . . They’re going to shoot you, Sam. Put your hands up.’” Cake said he told him. “‘OK,’” Maloney said calmly. ... “Right after that ‘OK’ there are four shots in succession — like pop, pop, pop, pop. No breaks, no more than four, no less than four also,” Cake recalled.' [22:06]
adlai: asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why not paredit-istic? [22:07]
adlai: ie, M-( et al [22:07]
asciilifeform: adlai: enlighten me, using earlier a/b sentences, what that'd look like [22:08]
asciilifeform: ~exactly~ [22:08]
asciilifeform: (a differ that ~doesn't work at all~ on arbitrary textolade is a nonstarter) [22:08]
asciilifeform: '“Somebody may want to ask the question as to why a pre-dawn, forced entry was necessary in this case,” Millar said , adding the public needs a full account of what happened Friday. (We) specifically want to know why a pre-dawn raid was required in a house with two young children.”' [22:11]
asciilifeform: lelz [22:11]
asciilifeform: 'because gestapo! stfu terrorist scum' [22:11]
mircea_popescu: hey, until the sheep start shooting the cops, the "forced entry" will continue. [22:12]
adlai: old: (foo bar baz) new: (foo (bar) baz) diff: \5\(foo \(3\bar\5\ baz) [22:12]
BingoBoingo: TLDR - Raising the "standard deduction" apparently hurts poor people in Bizarro WAPO logic https://archive.is/XvAyd [22:12]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in usa 'raid' is specifically a 'kick the dig until it bites, then shoot it' exterminator tactic against would-be cop shooters [22:13]
asciilifeform: *dog [22:13]
mircea_popescu: apparently not so. [22:13]
mircea_popescu: anyway, i didn't say "until sheep WOULD shoot cops". [22:13]
asciilifeform: they knock down door of d00d known to 'will shoot intruders' and of course machine gun barrage after he stumbles out of bed with old 12ga etc [22:14]
adlai: dude was dangerous, he'd already been visited by cops in the past! (for, uh... growing too much grass, and i don't mean the happy kind) [22:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on the basis of extant reports, not so. [22:14]
* adlai can imagine the scene: dude is holding xbox^Hw with one hand, pnoJ3 in the other hears lawyer, raises hand, unwittingly SBCs [22:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had similar case right in this shithole town, victim was spared (though not his animals) only because he turned out to be... the mayor [22:15]
mircea_popescu: you think mayor is... shooting anyone ? [22:15]
mircea_popescu: cmon. [22:15]
asciilifeform: was, supposedly, 'mistaken address' [22:16]
mircea_popescu: so your argument just crumbled in a pile of its own dust ? [22:16]
asciilifeform: i actually have insufficient data, after rejecting the available report as disinfo. [22:17]
asciilifeform: so nm. [22:17]
asciilifeform: iirc 'malcolm x' was executed in precisely the way described tho. [22:17]
BingoBoingo: "However, the plan would render the mortgage break useless for millions of families by roughly doubling the standard deduction available to all taxpayers, from $12,600 to $24,000 for a married couple." << And In law compliant WAPO land this is somehow "bad"! Oh noes, poor people not incentivized to play landholding! [22:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a very spiffy article a while back [22:19]
asciilifeform: 'antisocial struggle' [22:19]
mircea_popescu: ya but those weren't muricans [22:19]
asciilifeform: what if every 'dawn raid' cop had a well-founded fear of claymore mine. [22:20]
asciilifeform: (i predict: instead of door busting, they will simply do pre-dawn demolition charges from all sides, presto, 0 evidence) [22:21]
mircea_popescu: doubtful. there's a runaway exponential there, the sheeple state can only be maintained if sheeple. [22:22]
asciilifeform: at any rate this is a stretch, most of the executed folk are no kind of desperado, have 0 weapon bigger than a fork [22:22]
asciilifeform: (cops -- plant, on corpse, yes) [22:22]
mircea_popescu: the fact that leningrad was willing to split in two and one half hold at knifepoint the other WHILE THE OTHER OPPOSED NO RESISTENCE is the sine qua non condition of stalinism. [22:22]
mircea_popescu: without that - no stalinism. it's not as if stalin is given, and if leningrad DID oppose resistence then stalin'd have landed the ufos. stalin had no ufos. in fact, had barely rifle. [22:23]
mircea_popescu: so no. marginal increase in governance cost results in government dissolution. [22:23]
mircea_popescu: the moment the workers got ~even a little~ more unruly, prussian kingdom said its goodbyes to history. [22:23]
asciilifeform: su successfully bugsprayed oun-upa (ukr resistance) [22:24]
asciilifeform: and the latvian equiv. [22:24]
asciilifeform: just used different methods, vs ordinary policing [22:24]
mircea_popescu: minorities don't count in this. [22:24]
asciilifeform: why not? the protagonists held territory (in some cases, whole village) [22:25]
asciilifeform: these weren't urban dissolved-gypos [22:25]
mircea_popescu: entirely besides the point. [22:25]
mircea_popescu: but that is WHY they failed. in order for intransigent minority to ruin majority rule, it must be diffused. [22:26]
asciilifeform: didn't help the armenians, iirc [22:26]
mircea_popescu: you'll have to provide context. [22:27]
mircea_popescu: in any case - the fact that the us police state still exists has nothing to do with 80% of the citizenry being happy to take it up the ass at airport or 90%, or 95%. [22:27]
mircea_popescu: it has EVERYTHING to do with the absence of a 2-3% minority which returns fire. [22:27]
asciilifeform: eh the black d00dz returnfire [22:27]
asciilifeform: helps? [22:27]
mircea_popescu: once that appears, the usg as you know it goes away. [22:27]
mircea_popescu: no, they don't. [22:27]
asciilifeform: just pretense? [22:28]
mircea_popescu: i dunno what you ended up believing about black doods because that lisa kudrow imbecile told you, but they're exactly like gypsies in ru : cowardly, and inept. [22:28]
asciilifeform: until 3+ wolfpack [22:29]
asciilifeform: then not so coward [22:29]
mircea_popescu: lafond broadly has it, you can cut up and boil for soup a whole "gang" of black kids flashing miniguns (with crazy shit stuck on all sides of coars). with a shovel. [22:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if 3+, you crack one skull. [22:29]
asciilifeform: this often worx, documented. [22:30]
asciilifeform: on wolf also. [22:30]
mircea_popescu: wolf, monkey, hyena, all social animals. cowardly. [22:30]
asciilifeform: (when it doesn't work, there is usually nobody nearby with a pen, to document..) [22:31]
mircea_popescu: children, also, born cowardly. [22:31]
asciilifeform: there is a famous case of red army d00d who killed dozen+ germans with axe. [22:32]
asciilifeform: on same principle. [22:32]
mircea_popescu: famous russian gun commentator guy explains this cannonicaly, imo. "thief - wants to get loot. not to die with you there." [22:32]
asciilifeform: aha. [22:32]
mircea_popescu: this has little to do with thief and much to do with the social strategy. [22:32]
* adlai bumps http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596820 to asciilifeform 's radar [22:33]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 03:12 adlai: old: (foo bar baz) new: (foo (bar) baz) diff: \5\(foo \(3\bar\5\ baz) [22:33]
mircea_popescu: this is so fucking abstruse. [22:34]
asciilifeform: adlai: that looks painful [22:34]
mircea_popescu: i could read eight lines in the time it takes me to go 3 chars/second with this shit [22:34]
asciilifeform: adlai: your algo (not my encoding) suxx [22:35]
adlai: ah but your 'teco' is pistaccio icecream [22:35]
adlai: the algo, yeah. it's o(more) [22:35]
asciilifeform: encoder ought to be aware that it shat a weight of encoderola ~equal to the fucking payload [22:35]
asciilifeform: and refrain [22:35]
asciilifeform: and emit: [22:36]
mircea_popescu: so now it's a 4 state machine [22:37]
asciilifeform: \xx-(foo bar baz)\xx+(foo (bar) baz [22:37]
asciilifeform: nope [22:37]
asciilifeform: same states [22:37]
asciilifeform: just a less idiotic encoder [22:37]
mircea_popescu: "ought to be aware" = state++ [22:37]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu realizes that gnudiff encoding is also nonunique, neh? [22:37]
mircea_popescu: entirely besides da fuckin point, innit. [22:37]
adlai: asciilifeform: the point of paredit vs teco is so that, specifically when diffing lisp source, reindentation can be elided, and unexpected indentation can be specified relative to standard [22:38]
asciilifeform: quite relevant though. it ~chooses~ a variant. [22:38]
mircea_popescu: besides - i thought lisp convention was "oh, our parens are just \n and indentation so nm, just take them out" [22:38]
asciilifeform: even if idiotically, because designer was dropped as a baby [22:38]
adlai: 'standard' obviously doesn't cover many cases, which is why it exists as a standard which can be referenced against. [22:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, it doesn't choose. it HAPPENS upon a variant. [22:38]
asciilifeform: like 'slut falls pregnant' eh [22:39]
mircea_popescu: yes. [22:39]
asciilifeform: which is dumb. [22:39]
mircea_popescu: no, it is not. for one thing - it's how you're here in the first place. [22:39]
adlai: and your father smelled of elderberries! [22:39]
asciilifeform: to quote mircea_popescu 'i have nfi how my ancestors ended up with me, and anyone who claims to know this about self is full o shit' [22:40]
mircea_popescu: also the reason noobs can't write literature is because they imagine description needs to be exhaustive. so their prose turns tedious and then unreadable. [22:40]
* adlai goes back to manual mining of "proof-of-understanding" aka handwriting [22:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that you don't know is exactly the point, now isn't it. not so dumb after all. [22:40]
asciilifeform: usa interestingly is full of folx who were born from multi$10k genetic experiment [22:41]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pet, for instance [22:42]
mircea_popescu: i was thinking more of events that happened 10k+ years ago tbh. [22:42]
BingoBoingo: That genetic experment used to cost a nickle at the drive in [22:42]
mircea_popescu: lmao [22:42]
* asciilifeform pictures BingoBoingo's impregn^H^H^Hivf clinic [22:43]
mircea_popescu: hola mylord. [22:43]
mod6: Hola Gentlemen :] [22:43]
asciilifeform: btw there was more than one documented case of such clinic being precisely that kind of op [22:44]
asciilifeform: (d00d served up all clients own spoodge) [22:44]
mircea_popescu: i recall this [22:44]
asciilifeform: i've caught self wondering if 'ivf' process as described in textbook, ever worked at all... [22:45]
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNOVC1qVjc [22:46]
adlai: asciilifeform: pls elaborate, what genetic experiment? are we living in 'Gattaca' already? [22:46]
asciilifeform: adlai's log reading muscle got pulled or wat [22:47]
asciilifeform: atrophied? [22:47]
asciilifeform: or he is ll(1) parser [22:47]
adlai: i skim scrollbacks over a couple hundred lines, i may have missed something. did you deed pet's pedigree? [22:48]
asciilifeform: read 100% log or suffer, wat can i say [22:48]
asciilifeform: (suffer, preferably, quietly) [22:49]
adlai: superstition ain't the way (tm) s (r) [22:49]
asciilifeform: come on, consider reading. [22:49]
asciilifeform: it won't killya [22:49]
mircea_popescu: lmao. the effort this guy puts into trying to look like he belongs here. [22:49]
* asciilifeform bbl. [22:49]
adlai: at least give me something to search. [22:49]
mircea_popescu: ANYTHING BUT! (tm) (r) [22:50]
adlai: or a range, so that when i have slaves, i can figure out how much time it'll take them to find the needle [22:50]
* mod6 catches up on logs [22:52]
adlai: hola mod6 [22:52]
mod6: what up adlai [22:52]
adlai: flailing about hopelessly trying not to do my home-makework. it's not easy! [22:53]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo dude this elliot. SO.LONG. why the fuck are all the retards so fucking longwinded. [22:53]
* adlai thinks mircea_popescu wants him to shut up! so if i don't !!up myself again -- good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight. [22:54]
adlai: !!down adlai [22:54]
mod6: lolwat [22:55]
trinque: teh parallol [22:56]
mircea_popescu: lol italian woman shot a crossbow. epic. [22:57]
asciilifeform: !~later tell adlai plz consider making some ~use~ of your lispmuscles in a constructive direction. or, failing that, to tune in quietly and looksy-but-dun-touchsy. or you ~will~ end up drummed out, and this time i will not object nor would mircea_popescu et al particularly care if i did . [22:58]
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [22:58]
mircea_popescu: in other assisted-insemination news, http://68.media.tumblr.com/816ef98fc0f1a62b61d32aa82d09e041/tumblr_o959iavVvq1vs4rsbo1_1280.jpg [23:00]
trinque: the way this guy pleads about being desperate reminds me of the elliot (named eli, even) in There Will Be Blood. [23:20]
trinque: not a bad film at all. [23:20]
trinque: https://archive.is/BH36k << ahaha, having expended ~all~ other avenues (on reddit), he's reached the end (on reddit) [23:29]
asciilifeform: in other lulz, [23:49]
asciilifeform: 'I think that it used to be fun to be a hardware architect. Anything that you invented would be amazing, and the laws of physics were actively trying to help you succeed. Your friend would say, “I wish that we could predict branches more accurately,” and you’d think, “maybe we can leverage three bits of state per branch to implement a simple saturating counter,” and you’d laugh and declare that such a stupid scheme would [23:50]
asciilifeform: never work, but then you’d test it and it would be 94% accurate, and the branches would wake up the next morning and read their newspapers and the headlines would say OUR WORLD HAS BEEN SET ON FIRE. You’d give your buddy a high-five and go celebrate at the bar, and then you’d think, “I wonder if we can make branch predictors even more accurate,” and the next day you’d start XOR’ing the branch’s PC address with a shift [23:50]
asciilifeform: register containing the branch’s recent branching history, because in those days, you could XOR anything with anything and get something useful...' [23:50]
asciilifeform: '... You go to work hung-over, and you realize that, during a drunken conference call, you told your boss that your processor has 32 registers when it only has 8, but then you realize THAT YOU CAN TOTALLY LIE ABOUT THE NUMBER OF PHYSICAL REGISTERS, and you invent a crazy hardware mapping scheme from virtual registers to physical ones, and at this point, you start seducing the spouses of the compiler team...' [23:50]
asciilifeform: (whole thing a riot. 'the slow winter', j. mickens) [23:51]
asciilifeform: ( http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/sU7ZS/?raw=true ) [23:53]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo dude this elliot. SO.LONG. why the fuck are all the retards so fucking longwinded. << Well this one's in England, and Tall, and not yet known to be An Hero [23:59]
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