Forum logs for 25 Jan 2018

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
hanbot: >> can grab & pubkey's on about page if you need it. [01:00]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 03:07 mod6: maybe I can try to make a quick genesis of this to see what hanbot is seeing. [01:00]
hanbot: meanwhile asciilifeform's vtron on hold until i get python on server, nfs apparently eschews [01:01]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "societatea civila" ie the 50k or so blue state worshipping orclets left in romania are being publicly humiliated these days, on live television : [08:47]
mircea_popescu: moneyshot : "Pozitiv pentru dvs nu înseamnă pozitiv pentru societatea civilă." [08:47]
mircea_popescu: "Societatea civilă este partea aia mare din România care ne-a votat şi ne-a dat această împuternicire. Cei de la #rezist, dacă vor să facă un partid unic, cu Kovesi preşedinte, prim-ministru şi împărat, trebuie să vină cu acest program în faţa românilor să-l voteze. Dacă românii vor o ţară cu #rezist, schimbăm şi steagul şi imnul cu #, iar noi ceilalţi ne aplecăm cu respect. Cât nu sunt votaţi şi [08:47]
mircea_popescu: au 5%, cu tot SRI-ul în spate, cu Coldea cu tot, nu poţi să vii să faci program şi să implementezi nişte idei pentru cealaltă mare majoritate care formează 50% sau 60% şi care a votat." [08:47]
shinohai: It's official, I cannot make sense of Romanian before coffee. [08:48]
mircea_popescu: all i can say is [08:50]
mircea_popescu: (kovesi btw, is the in ro, if it weren't obvious) [08:53]
mircea_popescu: shinohai basically it's "for as long as your secret service powered nonsense gets 2% of the vote, you can go jump in the lake". the (obviously transparent) implication being that secret services principally exist as usg influence agents these days, and are getting beheaded pretty much everywhere, from myanmar to galicia and from gdansk to bucharest. [08:55]
shinohai: I like waking up to good news! [08:57]
mircea_popescu: anyway, fighting the wars of yesterday. used to be, in yonder prehistory before republican times, that secret service ~= victory. [08:57]
mircea_popescu: these days... heh. [08:58]
asciilifeform: eh aint the cia torture palace and usg naval base still open there ? [09:00]
mircea_popescu: naval base certainly. [09:01]
mircea_popescu: understand how this works : usg comes to buy an apple for $1000 because it imagines it'll pay $1000 to itself and get an apple. then it turns out it can't take the $1000 and gets butthurt. [09:02]
mircea_popescu: same deal everywhere. [09:02]
mircea_popescu: "oh, corrupt politicians & terrorists stole our moneyz" and so on. [09:04]
asciilifeform: followed by ukrization aha [09:07]
mircea_popescu: conceivably. there's a few options : ukraine went one way turkey went another way and greece went yet a third way. [09:09]
mircea_popescu: whether "a nation" is actually unfit to exist, rather a political figment than a substantial thing or on the contrary quite apt to live and thrive and with things yet to say or finally long exhausted and entirely dedicated by now to programatic laziness and the comfort seeking of senescence is an open problem [09:10]
mircea_popescu: but to be resolved by the group in question, neither i nor putin nor whatever papie mache in washington is going to decide this for them. [09:11]
asciilifeform: i meant attempted ukrization, rather than necessarily that particular result. but yes [09:12]
mircea_popescu: well sure. as you sit there right now typing at me, mosquitoes try to mosquitoize you, staph tries to staph you and so on. [09:12]
asciilifeform: aha [09:13]
mircea_popescu: i do not expect us army could actually come out of a field encounter with ro army as things stand right now but then again [09:13]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 00:09 mircea_popescu: will eat my left foot will eat. legions do not cross the rubicon because the "emperor" knows full well they'll join the barbarians the next night. [09:13]
mircea_popescu: (the sheer ridoinculousness of this, where usg has managed to recrearte for it in 2018 the situation of thje ottoman empire in 1878 is something everyone's quite pointedly invited to meditate upon. PANTSUITISM DOES NOT WORK, and stop asking women. anything.) [09:14]
mircea_popescu: america was built by men who did not ask women, anything, and ruined by boys who did. [09:15]
BingoBoingo: << Gracias, it is in the ledger. [09:37]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 00:36 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo : they're getting $7150, should cover whatever fees / maybe a little leftover. 0.63202778 goes on your books on the right side. [09:37]
mircea_popescu: done with teh local tradings ? [09:39]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> here's one example : he calls it "the most serene republic of bitcoin", which was the style at the time. but in practice we omit the bitcoin part most often than not don't we. << If I recall there was a moment somewhere involving miner retardation where there was a discussion of the necessary subordination of Bitcoin to the Republic. Bitcoin's need of a republic is not necessarily reciprocated and all. [09:39]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Lining some more up over the weekend. [09:40]
mircea_popescu: cool, make a post when they're all done. [09:40]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo something like that yeah. [09:40]
BingoBoingo: After the first, figured a short wait after the first trade would be a test of gossip speed. Curious if news of a gringo spreads and all. Or if they have a club, etc. [09:42]
mircea_popescu: sure. [09:42]
diana_coman: ugh, that codrin stefanescu was at some point with glorious ideas ~="all I care about is that my family is doing well, the rest doesn't matter" [09:45]
diana_coman: I guess that might make him more sincere than the others but not in any discernible way a better option as far as I can see [09:47]
mircea_popescu: comes from vadim's corner, at that. [09:48]
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm not proposing here that romania is somehow respectable or has a clue or that X random dork is my butt buddy now. all i'm saying is, "look yonder in the reservation for mongoloids of this particular orc breed, the pantsuit kid is getting his head punched in!" [09:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [09:55]
mircea_popescu: sooo i just discovered i somehow am missing tyhe images in ?! [10:28]
mircea_popescu: plox if anyone ever notices missing images / broken links / whatever in trilema say something, this isn't supposed to occur. [10:28]
* mircea_popescu now gets to spend whole morning as best case scenario figuring out what the holy shit happened. [10:28]
shinohai: lol mircea_popescu ... broken image link goes to an article!!!! [10:28]
shinohai: Or does it just redirect to random article when item isn't found? [10:29]
mircea_popescu: soft 404s yes [10:30]
mod6: << thanks hanbot. I'll grab this and try to press with it starting with version 99994. We'll see what happens. If all is well, then will also try version 99993. [10:33]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 06:00 hanbot: >> can grab & pubkey's on about page if you need it. [10:33]
mod6: lol 'testickle' [10:37]
mircea_popescu: hanbot asciilifeform [10:37]
deedbot: << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 7: Keccak Sponge [10:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: got it worx! [10:42]
asciilifeform: and np. [10:42]
spyked: mircea_popescu: sent a couple of pingbacks to trilema, seems to have worked (though I don't see them, it might be that they're currently in the moderation queue). output and script at lemme know if they show up anywhere in your wp [10:42]
diana_coman: phf, the newly published chapter 7 in eucrypt is the keccak sponge but it turns out that I'll still change it from inside out for next week [10:42]
diana_coman: the trouble with current version is that it's still messed up by endianness (the keccak constants are 64 bit *values* rather than bit streams) [10:43]
mircea_popescu: spyked all good. [10:44]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: waitasec : what makes you think that your keccak is sensitive to endianness ? [10:46]
diana_coman: next week's version of the sponge will be changed so that it works at bit level *everywhere*, idiotic constants included [10:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the damned constants [10:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is not necessarily so [10:46]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, constants are stored as numbers on 64 bits at the moment [10:46]
mircea_popescu: but it could be. [10:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman : if you don't byte-address, it does not matter whether you use constants, you are not endian-sensitive [10:46]
diana_coman: I will just store them as array of bits [10:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform look, she dun sleep well and i can see why not. [10:47]
mircea_popescu: you end up with a rotated octet you're fucked. [10:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is important to grasp what endiannessism IS [10:47]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, that was my initial approach: as long as all of them are stored same endianness theoretically the bits fit correctly [10:47]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: endianism only comes into play if you address individual bytes [10:47]
mircea_popescu: ti si mioptrna t for the fucking idiocy to not exist in the first place [10:47]
mircea_popescu: because "important " != "mioptrna t". [10:48]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to make it unexist, gotta understand what it is [10:48]
diana_coman: but I admit I am not 100% at ease that all the scramblings result in same thing and moreover yes, I don't see the reason WHY it should be there [10:48]
mircea_popescu: i am of a very good mind to forbid non-concepts like "byte" in computing in the first place. [10:48]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this part i cannot cure , hashing as it stands is an exercise in voodoo [10:48]
mircea_popescu: it turns out, check this inept shit out, IT TURNS OUT that the ACTUAL REASON why "characters are not bytes" is actually and in point of fact BECAUSE BYTES ARENT ANYTHING. [10:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the basic problem of 'how wide apart the rails on the railroad' doesn't go away , regardless of what you set the knobs to [10:49]
mircea_popescu: fuck that. i do not set any knobs or put them in. [10:50]
mircea_popescu: there will be a bit and not more. the possibility of " and a machine word = bus size" went away when they failed to implement it correctly. [10:50]
asciilifeform: aite, mircea_popescu gets a 1bit bus and 4096b rsa op takes 25 years. [10:51]
mircea_popescu: fine, [10:51]
mircea_popescu: but in practice, it turns out i get ffa and other things, because my friends love me even more than i love myself. [10:51]
asciilifeform: before we start feeding asciilifeform's machine arch crackpotteries again ( he dun mind at all..) let's determine whether diana_coman actually has an endianism problem ? [10:52]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman doesn't know that she doesn't have one. [10:52]
diana_coman: ^^^^ [10:52]
asciilifeform: same thing neh [10:52]
mircea_popescu: neh. [10:52]
diana_coman: not quite same thing, no [10:52]
asciilifeform: worse, even [10:52]
asciilifeform: i'ma read diana_coman's proggy and come back . [10:53]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: BitsToWord and WordToBits are not endianism-sensitive. [11:01]
diana_coman: I know, I wrote them to not be [11:01]
asciilifeform: i'm still looking for what is [11:02]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: is your current hypothesis that the iota operator is endianized ? [11:04]
diana_coman: if I understand correctly what you mean by that, yes basically to start with: I'm not sure that a. as it currently stands you'll get same hash for same input on little vs big endian [11:06]
diana_coman: b. input is a stream of bits depending on whether you consider that big/little, it will go to different bits of the state [11:06]
diana_coman: scrambling happens (at least in my mind) at bit level [11:07]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: as your proggy is currently written, it is only sensitive to endianism mismatch between the inputs and the endianism of the machine on which your proggy was built ( i.e. in which the round constants are stored ). this is not curable at the program level . [11:07]
asciilifeform: because of the way keccak is defined, the input is operated on wordwise [11:08]
asciilifeform: nao you could try to derive a keccak' , where it aint.. [11:08]
asciilifeform: sorta like how ffacalc works ( observe that it does exactly same thing on all possible endianisms , even 'middle endian' ( yes exists )) [11:09]
diana_coman: that's how it should be! [11:09]
asciilifeform: nao diana_coman knows why asciilifeform favours crackpotteries like numbertheoretical hashing etc. [11:09]
diana_coman: and I don't quite see why wouldn't keccak operate on input bitwise [11:10]
asciilifeform: cuz slow [11:10]
diana_coman: hm [11:10]
asciilifeform: ( it was written, recall, not in empty space but for usg's contest. and 1 of the demands was 'not much slower than older hashes' ) [11:11]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: all of this being said, if you can guarantee that the endianism of the input matches the endianism of the roundconstants -- you get correct answer. otherwise not. [11:13]
diana_coman: myeah [11:13]
asciilifeform: this problem was a serious headache for the tcp/ip people, they solved it mircea_popescu-style, 'fuckyou and errything going over the wire is to be bigendian' (at the time, bigendianism dominated in 'serious' iron) [11:13]
asciilifeform: !~google network byte order [11:13]
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Endianness - Wikipedia: <> Network byte order and host byte order - IBM: <> Unix Socket Network Byte Orders - TutorialsPoint: <> [11:14]
diana_coman: I suppose the "patch" would be to check endianism at runtime and use the correct constants as it were I ...still don't see why should I have endianism in there to start with [11:14]
asciilifeform: ugh shitgoogle as usual [11:14]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you can't 'check endianism', you gotta know from where the input came to know its endianism [11:14]
asciilifeform: endianism is not an attribute discernible from a pile of bits [11:14]
diana_coman: ah, of input, right [11:14]
asciilifeform: aha. [11:14]
asciilifeform: what you can do, is either a) operate bitwise, ffa-style. b) mandate an endianism for the data format. and since you know the endianism of the machine you're building on, in particular build, you know whether the machine's is opposite or same as the data's. [11:15]
asciilifeform: so in b) you either flip ( opposites ) endiannesses of all inputs, or not flip ( same endianness ). [11:16]
mircea_popescu: so we end up with a make that alters code ? [11:16]
asciilifeform: this is how the problem is traditionally solved. [11:16]
mircea_popescu: this is a gate that dun belong open. [11:16]
mircea_popescu: "here's the source check to see it is correct and here's how your builder will fuck it up for you by replacing constants" [11:16]
mircea_popescu: holy hell what! [11:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually no [11:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: [11:16]
asciilifeform: ( tldr : ada tells you the endianism of the box you're on ) [11:17]
mircea_popescu: portably and certainly ? [11:17]
diana_coman: this is why I said earlier "check endianism at runtime" because yes, in ada you can get that [11:17]
diana_coman: but "In this section we will review the effect of the Bit_Order attribute definition clause on byte ordering. Briefly, it has no effect at all, but a detailed example will be helpful" this is gold [11:17]
asciilifeform: ( and if it didn't -- it ain't hard to determine it mechanically . i will leave it as exercise how ) [11:17]
mircea_popescu: otherwise you could just check to see if 0F is smaller or larger than F0 obviously [11:18]
asciilifeform: endianism dun exist inside byte lol [11:18]
mircea_popescu: o good grief. must i include all the 0s ? [11:18]
asciilifeform: it exists as order in which bytes inside word appear [11:18]
asciilifeform: but i think mircea_popescu gets it [11:18]
diana_coman: trouble is ...why is it worth having this headache to start with [11:18]
asciilifeform: and yes the Bit_Order thing works, all kinds stuff would immediately liquify if it didn't [11:18]
mircea_popescu: o hey, i hadn't noticed that they DIDNT LIQUIFY [11:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not in ada planet. [11:19]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the short version is that the cpu is a physical object. this is an eternal and incurable headache for programmerz, yes [11:19]
mircea_popescu: well in any case, there's a week to sort this mess out. [11:19]
asciilifeform: i described the two known pills ( without endorsing a particular one ) against endianism. afaik there is not a third. [11:20]
asciilifeform: ( other than to bake own iron with 1bit busses etc ) [11:20]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i would right now like to, for a great piece i'm writing, link to "The choice of Ada as programming language for this implementation" specifically out of all because that's the sort of fine tuned context linkage i use. wut do ? [11:20]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, ugh, I'll have to put in those link for selection, won't I [11:21]
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't go so far as have to, but it is a fact it'd help me in this point. [11:21]
asciilifeform: btw, [11:21]
asciilifeform: ' for Data'Bit_Order use High_Order_First [11:21]
asciilifeform: and the effect is what is desired, namely the layout is exactly the same, independent of whether the code is compiled on a big-endian or little-endian machine. ' [11:21]
asciilifeform: ( i recommend to diana_coman and even to mircea_popescu to read the linked doc ) [11:22]
* diana_coman will read and then re-read [11:22]
asciilifeform: btw iirc trinque has a bigendian machine with a working gnat. [11:23]
asciilifeform: for answering mircea_popescu's 'but does it actually work' . [11:24]
asciilifeform: ( attach a dynamo to dijkstra's corpse prior to testing, yes 'oughta tell From First Principles!111' ) [11:24]
mircea_popescu: wait wait, i might have a pill [11:29]
mircea_popescu: we could actually declare big endian notation to be WRONG, on the grounds it's inconsistent. [11:30]
* asciilifeform was waiting for this [11:30]
asciilifeform: possibly worth reviewing why people even came up with bigendianism. it was partly from 'can test sign bit by looking at zeroth byte' , and partly the ben_vulpes ( from #trilema-mod6 log linked 2d ago ) problem -- 'let's store words in the order in which they get printed' [11:32]
mod6: hanbot: << Here is what I know, for now. There are some comments at the bottom. [11:32]
mircea_popescu: to make the full argument here in plain text : [11:32]
ben_vulpes: mod6: magic strings in the b64! [11:33]
mod6: what's weird is that it actually output that in the pressed file. [11:33]
mod6: something strange is happening. [11:34]
ben_vulpes: did it also crap out hanbot's .orig files? [11:34]
hanbot: mod6 thanks very much for looking --that error was 2nd headscratcher for me. phf's was used to make this, fwiw [11:34]
mircea_popescu: big endianism is the proposition of taking a pile of bits, and sorting them such that they representing larger powers of two are later than those representing smaller powers of two but only for chunks of bits of an arbitrary lengths chunks longer are ordered in ~the contrary fashion~, so ab is to be ordered as ba by this scheme, but abcd is to be ordered as badc. [11:34]
mircea_popescu: because it rotates this way it is therefore not a valid encoding and case closed. [11:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'philosophically consistent' ( hey kurchatov! ) method is: little-endianism . but with it, you're stuck loading a whole parcel to test its sign bit ( i dun give a fuck, personally , on modern iron ) but -- unless yer an arab -- flipping words prior to printing , in the civilized style, left to right [11:37]
mod6: ben_vulpes: yes, i found this one in the genesis: +(function(A){A.widget("ui.draggable",A.extend({},A.ui.mouse,{init:function(){var B=t [11:37]
mod6: crap, ignore that' [11:37]
mod6: this: diff -uNr a/mpwp/blog/wp-comments-post.php.orig b/mpwp/blog/wp-comments-post.php.orig [11:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't understand the argument. so you write left to right, so what does this say ? [11:38]
asciilifeform: i'll confess , i'm with mircea_popescu on this one, how much time is spent printing and testing sign bits ? [11:38]
hanbot: mod6 there should be one orig, is in the mp-wp i was handed [11:38]
hanbot: the issue i had yest was *all* files got a copy named filename.orig [11:38]
mod6: hanbot: ok. let me take a look here... [11:38]
mircea_popescu: the whole edifice is rotten. special order ? if they wanted this SHOULD HAVE CHANGED THE SIGN BIT POSITION OMFG [11:38]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ftr. [11:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like to see your algo for 2s-complement add/sub for a hypothetical box where sign bit is not the senior bit [11:39]
asciilifeform: ( it ain't impossible. but i can't immediately think of an economical method ) [11:40]
mod6: hanbot: << looks that way -- however, keep in mind the entire press did not finish, so hard to say that there couln't have been more if something else wouldn't have puked from hunks or whatever. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do it shift two and carry the last bit adequately ? [11:40]
asciilifeform: on every word access ?! [11:40]
mircea_popescu: on every add. what, the cost of the shift is the issue here ? [11:41]
asciilifeform: it does cost. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: i do noit dispute it does cost, but so does this other isnanity. [11:41]
asciilifeform: errything -- costs. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: if there were a costless thing, by all means. but "between saving for six months to afford the thing i need and "buying" this other thing i don't need on easy rates i choose the former" though ?! [11:42]
asciilifeform: i dun actually disagree with mircea_popescu : i never liked bigendianism . but it did come from a particular cost analysis , ftr. [11:42]
mircea_popescu: show me where this cost analysis is published. [11:42]
hanbot: mod6 yeah, makes sense [11:42]
mircea_popescu: because afaik this is a whisperer's product and it THEREFORE carries no weight. [11:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i hatetobreakittoya, but WHOLE FUCKING pseudoengineering kompyooting thing, is 'whisperproduct' [11:43]
mircea_popescu: awww. so that means i can say whatever and nobody has any ground to stand on and argue "his" way ? [11:43]
mircea_popescu: such a disadvantage this puts me at, seriously! [11:43]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and most of the knob params are of the kind. [11:43]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 02:09 mircea_popescu: this is like saying guillotining the neck rather than the mandible or the shoulderblades is completely arbitrary. [11:43]
mircea_popescu: how i regret it! every day i mourn it! they wounded me so very deeply, these idiots, with their idiotic misbehaviour! to the very core of my being i suffer for their failure to have ammounted to a hill of beans! [11:43]
asciilifeform: btw arm and mips have toggles for endianism [11:47]
asciilifeform: ( further reading for aficionados : , ) [11:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re the 'guillotine neck vs mandible', if it ain't obvious, i'll spell it out ftr : bigendian nums look 'ffaistic' when hexdumped, i.e. correct . littleendian -- you gotta mentally flip'em. [11:52]
asciilifeform: whether this matters, is obviously arbitrary q. [11:52]
mircea_popescu: show me this ? [11:52]
asciilifeform: aite, let's: [11:53]
* asciilifeform preparing snippet, brb [11:53]
asciilifeform: ok, here goeth : [11:58]
asciilifeform: #include <stdio.h> [11:59]
asciilifeform: void main() { [11:59]
asciilifeform: int i = 0x01234567 [11:59]
asciilifeform: fwrite(&i, sizeof(i), 1, stdout) [11:59]
asciilifeform: } [11:59]
asciilifeform: gcc -o endian thisitem.c [11:59]
asciilifeform: and afterwards, ./endian | hexdump -C [11:59]
asciilifeform: try this on littleendian and bigendian box. [12:00]
asciilifeform: try likewise with 'long' instead of 'int', to see effect on 64bit parcel [12:00]
asciilifeform: i'll spoil it for littleendian : [12:01]
asciilifeform: 67 45 23 01 [12:01]
mircea_popescu: right. [12:07]
mircea_popescu: the other one does ~this same thing~ but ~to the machine~. [12:07]
asciilifeform: aha!! [12:07]
mircea_popescu: well... [12:07]
mircea_popescu: this is back to the glyphs discussion all over again. "fix your printer!" [12:08]
asciilifeform: if we wrote like arabs, there've been no controversy, i bet [12:08]
asciilifeform: *there'dve been [12:08]
mircea_popescu: poor arabs, they invented all this shit, we ran with it with our inept ways and nearly fucked it into the ground [12:08]
asciilifeform: more or less. [12:08]
mircea_popescu: and somehow THEY'RE supposed to be the uncivilised orcs. [12:08]
asciilifeform: the sad part re inventing things. [12:08]
asciilifeform: fwiw the deep historicalcrackpots seem to think it wasn't even arabs, but the now-vanished aryans or whoever. [12:09]
asciilifeform: but the point stands. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: twas the arabs, they got 0 from india and it sparked. [12:10]
mircea_popescu: much like xtians got gunpowder from china and it sparked. [12:10]
* asciilifeform has nfi [12:11]
mircea_popescu: (steam engine existed because metalworking, and the metalworking involved exists because cannons. industrial revolution is the result of having stolen gunpowder.) [12:11]
asciilifeform: oh hah i misparsed 'got 0' lol [12:11]
asciilifeform: but yes [12:11]
hanbot: mircea_popescu: hanbot << got it no matches [12:16]
mircea_popescu: << this is such an epic tidbit btw... [12:23]
a111: Logged on 2015-08-11 03:24 asciilifeform: 'ONE way of feeling infallible is not to keep a diary. Looking back through the diary I kept in 1940 and 1941 I find that I was usually wrong when it was possible to be wrong. Yet I was not so wrong as the Military Experts. Experts of various schools were telling us in 1939 that the Maginot Line was impregnable, and that the Russo-German Pact had put an end to Hitler’s eastwards expansion in early 1940 they were telling us [12:23]
asciilifeform: orlol [12:23]
asciilifeform: err, orwell [12:23]
mircea_popescu: aha. [12:23]
mircea_popescu: hmm, where the hell is the place where i say the father's responsibility to his daughter is to shove a pound of raw prime beef down her throat every day and naught else ? [12:25]
asciilifeform: it was in a trilema article [12:25]
mircea_popescu: ah was it ? [12:25]
asciilifeform: it was [12:27]
asciilifeform: ( i dun have a greppable trilema here, so can't immediately say where ) [12:30]
mircea_popescu: i do and i still can't / [12:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ? [12:44]
mircea_popescu: nah, that's just a reference to an old romulus vulpescu translation of decameron [12:44]
asciilifeform: in other finds, unlike google, yandex indexes ~all of trilema [12:45]
asciilifeform: so potentially findable there, if only anybody remembered the actual phrasing [12:45]
trinque: hm, I have a transaction for which trb considers the CTransaction "vin" vector to be empty, but which clearly has an input. [12:50]
trinque: appears I've got a bug [12:50]
asciilifeform: trinque: which trb is this [12:50]
asciilifeform: ( modified ? if so how? or a well-known press ? or wat ) [12:50]
hanbot: mircea_popescu if it's still useful [12:51]
mircea_popescu: holy shit yes! [12:51]
mircea_popescu: tyvm [12:51]
trinque: asciilifeform: makefiles + polarbeard sendrawtx [12:51]
trinque: totally possible it's in the polarbearded portion. I'm digging [12:52]
trinque: though I don't see how he'd have borked tx parsing [12:52]
asciilifeform: trinque: plox to describe the experimental setup ( not pedantism for the sake of pedantism, this, it's important ) [12:52]
asciilifeform: trinque: which eggog, exactly , do you get ? [12:54]
asciilifeform: 'CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty' ? [12:54]
trinque: ./main.cpp: return DoS(10, error("CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty")) [12:54]
asciilifeform: and is the press point ? [12:55]
trinque: pressed to makefiles then patched polarbeard atop manually [12:55]
asciilifeform: but with ^this patch ? or another ? [12:56]
trinque: the same [12:56]
trinque: I don't see that he does anything to transaction parsing there [12:57]
trinque: just does so. [12:57]
asciilifeform: i gotta ask : how didja generate the txturd [12:58]
asciilifeform: ( is it possible that it got cut or mutilated ? ) [12:58]
trinque: other tools say it's a normal tx, and see the input [12:59]
asciilifeform: right, but is there any diff b/w how trinque fed it to 'other tool' and how he fed to this one [12:59]
trinque: nope, tx bin hex slurped from qr code [12:59]
asciilifeform: or was this a process flow that worked 9000 times before, and otherwise virginal [13:00]
trinque: ^ [13:00]
asciilifeform: is tx of unusual size ? [13:00]
trinque: naw, 1 input, 2 outputs [13:00]
asciilifeform: hm, interesting [13:00]
asciilifeform: and, importantly -- what is the node's height ? [13:00]
asciilifeform: ( and what was the generating node's ? ) [13:01]
trinque: hm. winner winner chicken dinner. -3k blocks [13:01]
asciilifeform: ding. [13:01]
asciilifeform: caseclosed. [13:01]
trinque: what a terrible error message. [13:03]
* trinque throws that on the TODOs [13:03]
asciilifeform: dunno, it was enuff for asciilifeform to say what was the eggog [13:04]
asciilifeform: but i'll agree that 'empty' is idiotic way to describe it [13:04]
trinque: indistinguishable from bad parse [13:04]
asciilifeform: it ain't 'empty', just orphanistic. [13:04]
asciilifeform: 'this tx may have come from parallel universe, we won't know until we intern its parents' [13:05]
trinque: mhm, and this is an input that was change more recently than 3k blox [13:05]
asciilifeform: clearly. [13:05]
* asciilifeform finds the 'tx references outputs of old tx, rather than addrs' to be a profoundly trisomistic shitoshiism -- but we can come back to this at next 'trb-i' thread [13:07]
trinque: heh, 0.0005 confirms instantly now. aren't we all glad the shitheads got their gigablocks [13:42]
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?! [13:45]
deedbot: << Trilema - The principal-agent problem, or how America went away [13:47]
trinque: I just fired a garden variety tx and it confirmed in the next block, 0.0005 fee [13:49]
mircea_popescu: oh, i missed some sarcasm did i [13:49]
mircea_popescu: << it is at that. [13:51]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 18:03 trinque: what a terrible error message. [13:51]
asciilifeform: trinque: do you know of a particular reason why you have a -3k node ? ( it is a young node, not yet grown ? or -- blackholed ? which ) [14:01]
trinque: nope, this was the deedbot node. each time it happens, there are many external connections, and each time a restart brings it back to the top. [14:03]
trinque: I do not have a hypothesis yet [14:04]
asciilifeform: trinque: what patch set on this node ? [14:04]
trinque: this is the node we were discussing, makefiles.vpatch + polarbeard [14:04]
asciilifeform: ( i.e. does it have the sync retardation cure ) [14:04]
trinque: it does not [14:04]
asciilifeform: cuz if not, this is elementary [14:04]
trinque: wasn't that patch marked experimental? [14:05]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's working node has been 100% free of 'falls behind and cured by restart' since patched. [14:05]
asciilifeform: trinque: indeed i marked it as experimental. did not know if, e.g., prb would shun the patched nodes, say [14:05]
asciilifeform: nowadays i dun see any reason not to mainline it [14:05]
* trinque will be happy to start using the mainline version. [14:06]
asciilifeform: ( iirc mod6 also has a node with it, runs smoothly, talk with him. possibly ben_vulpes also ) [14:06]
trinque: I intend for deedbot's node to always reflect current trb's behavior [14:06]
* asciilifeform can't find any argument against this [14:06]
asciilifeform: the old sync behaviour is profoundly retarded tho, asciilifeform felt quite stupid for not having fixed it in the first yr of trb's life [14:06]
asciilifeform: the 'boot time is SPESHUL' is an idjit winblowzism [14:07]
asciilifeform: for which there can be NO justification. [14:07]
ben_vulpes: was a pretty neatly surgical fix, i gotta say [14:07]
ben_vulpes: given the evolution of 'v', and that the act of pressing is a private, intimate one, does "current trb's behavior" make much sense anymore? [14:08]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: well considering that it only snips off an obvious birth wart [14:08]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is such a thing as ' ben_vulpes & mod6 Troo Release ' ! [14:09]
asciilifeform: recall ? [14:09]
ben_vulpes: more of a tumor hanging off the infant's face, but yeah [14:09]
ben_vulpes: yes, i do. [14:09]
trinque: ben_vulpes: macroexpand my statement to "I am not adding maintaining my own wad of chosen experimental patches, regrinding them each time there is a mainline release" [14:09]
asciilifeform: incidentally ben_vulpes , mod6 , anybody else who tested 'experimental' patch, is invited to... [14:09]
asciilifeform: sign it ! [14:10]
asciilifeform: with commentary [14:10]
asciilifeform: e.g. 'i ran node with this for 60 d, and it worx , nomoar fallbehind' etc [14:10]
asciilifeform: this goes for ~all~ 'experimentals' [14:10]
ben_vulpes: suresure. what even means "a release" though, in a world where each patch now touches the changelog file. that eg ben_vulpes produces a patch that *only* touches the changelog, saying "the foundation makes of this link in the chain a checkpoint"? [14:12]
asciilifeform: it means, simply enuff, whatever item ben_vulpes & mod6 proclaim 'this is a trb release' [14:12]
asciilifeform: for instance, a release is a suggested starting point for patch work [14:12]
trinque: I was supposing that experimental patches would not touch changelog, patches meant for release would edit changelog [14:12]
asciilifeform: trinque: this is sorta how releases work already iirc [14:13]
asciilifeform: in trbland [14:13]
ben_vulpes: i'd rather have people chose which node on which to base their patches themselves, based on their own judgement of the quality of the priors, otherwise there's a new axis of promisetronix in play [14:14]
ben_vulpes: that the world promises to deliver me a regrinding nightmare out of stitching together ten patches that all descend from the release patch [14:14]
asciilifeform: imho 'trb release' makes sense as a thing -- conservative 'this worx' item [14:15]
trinque: what is the foundation's role then? [14:15]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes something like that works, certainly. [14:15]
asciilifeform: n00b wants to run trb. which trb will he run ? [14:15]
mircea_popescu: trinque if they don't touch changelog they'll have to be reground then [14:15]
ben_vulpes: trinque: conservative "this works" [14:15]
trinque: right [14:15]
mircea_popescu: i suppose the idea here is to turn this into a semantic device ? [14:15]
trinque: editing the changelog, "mainline" would not ever have multiple leafs, aside intentional forks [14:17]
trinque: experimental patches meanwhile wouldn't, and the operator is invited to regrind the experimental item into a patch which edits changelog, if it's graduating out of "experimental" [14:18]
ben_vulpes: makes for a neat delineation between patches baked in an angry stew and those selfsame patches read in the cold light of morning and possibly even reground by others as "this works, and i propose it for inclusion in the trunk" [14:18]
mircea_popescu: 1. the idea to have "changelog only" patches as a signature device is a major departure from how v worked previously, it semanticizes an item that we only recently even introduced 2. the idea to have patches that are deliberately non-compliant so "they won't be mainline" is a solution to what i thought an inexistend problem -- why not maintain special "experumental" keys for the purpose instead, like sane people ? [14:19]
trinque: I don't propose "changelog only" [14:19]
mircea_popescu: both 1 and 2 seem a rather "we'll fix the car by retrofitting horse carriage to it" [14:19]
trinque: I don't see that. [14:20]
trinque: nor where "deliberately non-compliant" comes in [14:21]
trinque: a C++ program is not reducible to particular files sliced out of it. it's the whole, and the filesystem state is a lie. [14:21]
mircea_popescu: wait a second. [14:21]
trinque: because human brains balk at a 500k scroll, so they chop the thing into bits [14:21]
mircea_popescu: hang on, hang on. [14:22]
diana_coman: <- it's on, thanks! [14:22]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 16:39 mircea_popescu: diana_coman ftr. [14:22]
mircea_popescu: << 1 is re this. [14:22]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 19:12 ben_vulpes: suresure. what even means "a release" though, in a world where each patch now touches the changelog file. that eg ben_vulpes produces a patch that *only* touches the changelog, saying "the foundation makes of this link in the chain a checkpoint"? [14:22]
mircea_popescu: 2 was not actually stated by anyone, i'm just saying for the record. [14:22]
trinque: ah, /me backs off [14:23]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> ( iirc mod6 also has a node with it, runs smoothly, talk with him. possibly ben_vulpes also ) << this in ref to >> ? [14:24]
asciilifeform: mod6: it [14:25]
mod6: My node got with 140 blocks, then promptly fell back behind about 400-500. but this is caused by my dedicated node running on spinning rust it appears. when i get a moment, I'm gonna call the DC and see if they'll throw in an ssd in there for me. that should cure it. [14:25]
mod6: I'll hold off on sigs until i can confirm with ssd. [14:25]
mod6: *within [14:26]
asciilifeform: spinning rust, at this point i dare say, is like running node on 486 [14:26]
asciilifeform: i.e. screamingly short of the system requirements [14:26]
mod6: aha. noted. [14:26]
asciilifeform: ( dulap had ~ok trb performance on spinning rust, but it had striped raid . and STILL couldn't keep up with ssd zoolag, despite the latter being a box the size of my fist, with no raid, on residential fiber ) [14:26]
asciilifeform: btw i'll mention again a simple method to speed up sync (to a point) 1,000x or moar -- signed hashes ( a la the programmable checkpoint thread from 2yrs ago ) [14:29]
mod6: for instance, i have a R610 running with ssd, and when doing eatblock (sucking in all the blocks cut up via cutblk), I can process like 15k-20k blocks per day. more importantly, the IO timings are WAAAAAY lower. [14:29]
asciilifeform: but the up/down sides of this method are i think obvious [14:29]
mod6: so im sure that ssd will give me a huge perf boost to stay up to HEAD [14:30]
mod6: if for some reason DC won't throw in a SSD, even if extra fee is paid, will find a new DC. [14:30]
mod6: but, their site says they will do hardware mods via request. [14:30]
mod6: so im fairly confident to get it resolved here with a simple email. will report back one way or another. [14:31]
asciilifeform: btw i'm still waiting for anybody to try to defend the original shitoshi sync behaviour, somehow [14:33]
asciilifeform: to me it looks completely indefensible. [14:33]
asciilifeform: WHY should boot time be special ? [14:34]
asciilifeform: can anyone 'devil's advocate' this one ? [14:34]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no "advocate", more like explain: probably the thought was that after it starts it remains (magically!) always at the top [14:36]
mircea_popescu: the thought was that this runs for a coupla hours after hours on uni computer [14:37]
mircea_popescu: because self-effacing "nobility" of retarded white cuck. [14:37]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> to me it looks completely indefensible. <+asciilifeform> WHY should boot time be special ? << aha, to me your change there seems like the Right Thing [14:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am well persuaded was actually satoshi's nobel/oppenheimer moment. "o noes, this is bad because i have not the balls to live!" [14:42]
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : that was my only hypothesis. i haven't another. [15:20]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the only obvious problem with 'oppenheimer' hypothesis is that shitoshi iirc walked away ~prior~ to bitcoin 'chain reaction' [15:21]
mircea_popescu: i don't mean it was a historical event just as a counterfactual. [15:21]
asciilifeform: aa [15:21]
mircea_popescu: you can sorta guess when exactly the "strong independent woman" will start bawing like a little girl on the basis of the displayed priors. [15:22]
asciilifeform: and for thread-completeness i gotta point out that 'Until the day Bitcoin mining uses up 50%+1 of all electricity generated on planet Earth, this theoretical avenue remains open, if very theoretical' isn't necessarily guaranteed : there always remains ( because Hashing Is Voodoo (tm) ! ) the possibility of discovering shortcut to the mining process ( we had the 'satcoin' thread possibly other variations on the theme also ) [15:23]
mircea_popescu: sure [15:23]
* asciilifeform recently on yet another kick of 'what do re hashing' , if nobody guessed [15:24]
asciilifeform: granted this is less of a headache in 'minerless' trbi variants. [15:26]
asciilifeform: !!up NoSatoshisHear [16:04]
deedbot: NoSatoshisHear voiced for 30 minutes. [16:04]
asciilifeform: lol [16:04]
NoSatoshisHear: ya, i'm an idiot. thx for the !up [16:04]
NoSatoshisHear: ffa, some cool stuff, making a braindead c one just cause I can learn better. Sure wish I could pour some fast multiply hardware, but don't know enough prolly. [16:05]
asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: why dontcha introduce yerself ? [16:06]
asciilifeform: and, better even, reg with deedbot [16:06]
asciilifeform: !!help [16:06]
deedbot: [16:06]
NoSatoshisHear: ex game engineer, ex intel architect, now too old to get hired. life summary. [16:07]
ben_vulpes: didja at least keep the options in the divorce? [16:07]
asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: reg with deedbot i'll rate you [16:08]
NoSatoshisHear: intel got no options, you get a multiplier. best paid job ever. [16:08]
NoSatoshisHear: I have, came last summer, fugged around, left with a copy of trb to play with, will make a real name and gpg id in the near future.... [16:08]
ben_vulpes: "dump trucks of money every two weeks" is how i heard it described one time. [16:09]
NoSatoshisHear: you get a percent of the profit every quarter, I started at 25% of salary, and got a 10% bump at 1 year, some 20 year+ doods have 2000% multipliers. [16:09]
NoSatoshisHear: hated the job, loved the money. [16:10]
asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: why didja leave? [16:10]
asciilifeform: or sacked ? [16:10]
NoSatoshisHear: left, was not happy with the system, thought it was not conducive to making new wares, but great for maintaining older established platforms. [16:11]
asciilifeform: unsurprising, considering that intel lives ~100% on ye olde wintel monopoly [16:11]
asciilifeform: (which in turn inherited from ancient ibm monopoly, so altogether century+ old) [16:12]
NoSatoshisHear: was pretty cool getting to be in the architect meeting. They introduced the FU chip in 2004 as a seperate processor. I so voted it down. It sounded like a spy chip and it was. [16:12]
asciilifeform: FU? [16:13]
NoSatoshisHear: I'll be damned if they didn't put that bastard into my sacred north bridge! The intel management engine... [16:13]
asciilifeform: is this the turd that turned into ME ? [16:13]
asciilifeform: aa [16:13]
NoSatoshisHear: yup... that is it. Started in 2004, was designed to access memory, drive, and ethernet while main cpu was asleep... [16:13]
asciilifeform: this wasn't an engineer decision, but board 'decision' ( in the sense that if board tried to decide 'no', intel would have simply been given a new board ) [16:14]
NoSatoshisHear: I worked on ICH7 and ICH8, fugging bugs out the ass in ICH7... [16:14]
NoSatoshisHear: yup, every engineer who heard of the system hated it, and the vp++ loved the idea, gave control to corporate overlords of your work machine. [16:15]
asciilifeform: !#s fritz [16:15]
a111: 61 results for "fritz", [16:15]
asciilifeform: ^ see also [16:15]
NoSatoshisHear: then they put the bastard in everything, moved from NB to CPU, and you know the rest... [16:15]
asciilifeform: have you been reading the logs, NoSatoshisHear ? [16:15]
NoSatoshisHear: Read the all, love to read. Trilema leads out to all of you guys stuff, all 1% great stuff, and 99% personal wanglings. [16:16]
NoSatoshisHear: what are my three premises? sounded like a binary joke extended. ETLA's [16:17]
asciilifeform: imho the interesting aspect of the intel fritzchip is not that it is there, but that an unknown and unknowable number of items with equivalent functionality also there. [16:19]
NoSatoshisHear: so, I may make a fun shitcoin for lulz. I like the hellcoin idea. The block gets awarded to the last 10 suckers^h^h^h^h^h miners that put a "realcoin" into the chain. We start at $100 and let people "mine" with coins, last 10 when the timer ticks down get the block. [16:19]
asciilifeform: which is why i do not see the various diy attempts to disable the particular ME, as interesting in any way [16:19]
asciilifeform: what's it mean to 'put a realcoin into the chain' [16:20]
NoSatoshisHear: 30 minute timout shite, though I did see the key may have leaked and someone had an uploader. [16:20]
asciilifeform: or for that matter to 'start at $100' [16:20]
asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: keys leaking also not so exciting, they can simply swap out the key in next chip rev [16:21]
asciilifeform: like the hdmi people did [16:21]
NoSatoshisHear: You start with $100 in the pool, the "miners" contribute any amount of BC or other "valid" coin to bid. It goes in the pool, and the timer resets. If it times out, the last 10 get the block award. [16:21]
asciilifeform: sounds like a rather tedious fiatola casino [16:22]
NoSatoshisHear: try and even get the hdmi spec, I'm still looking for a "dumped" version. Love the ethernet spec they built in... [16:22]
NoSatoshisHear: yes, it's just like reddits "the button", only with money. Would be serious lulz, and only an idiot would play. [16:23]
NoSatoshisHear: the world has a lot of idiots, like me. [16:23]
asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: do consider to reg with deedbot. [16:24]
NoSatoshisHear: it would not be a coin, but a gambling experiment. Either no one would play, or lots would and the game could never end. [16:24]
asciilifeform: i'ma bbl. [16:24]
NoSatoshisHear: yes, will do a real ID, just flaming some crap right now. I have my main server back for repairs, so when it comes home I will do the do. [16:24]
mod6: cool [16:25]
NoSatoshisHear: still wonder if I mean Satoshi at one of the parties with Tim May and James A Donald and some of the other early coiners. I was surprised to find peeps I hung with in SF... [16:26]
NoSatoshisHear: mean->met [16:26]
NoSatoshisHear: I worked on digital coin in 2001, but tried to find a non-net solution, and finally just gave up. When you head the wrong way, you don't get there. Still feel stupid for not buying in at $5, but I had no interest in Silk Road. [16:28]
NoSatoshisHear: so, will be back later with a verifiable ID instead of this anon lunacy, thx for the lulz and info in the meantime. [16:31]
mod6: aight, c-ya [16:31]
NoSatoshisHear: W00t! learned a lot from TRB, so thx to all of you maintainers! Will not make a V prolly though. Still learning lightning, now with "onion routing". HODL on, and buy my tethers plz. [16:33]
trinque: wtf? [16:34]
trinque: smell of [16:35]
asciilifeform: trinque: verily [16:35]
trinque: !!up caaddr [16:38]
deedbot: caaddr voiced for 30 minutes. [16:38]
trinque: caaddr: your connection through tor is going to end up irritating folks if the join/part gets too noisy. [16:38]
trinque: !#s tor [16:38]
a111: 1126 results for "tor", [16:38]
trinque: isn't doing a thing for you other than whatever virtue signaling with the hackerkids [16:39]
lobbes: In other heathendom lulz, local conservative radio stations in my area have begun airing ads: "Bobface from Alabama made $7 million cashing out on 'crypto stocks'. You can too! Buy this b00k to learn what you need to know to get in on it" [17:00]
mircea_popescu: lobbes sadly thaty book is not availablew in my country / i wonder if you could buy it for me and ship it!!1 [17:41]
mircea_popescu: << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding. [17:43]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then? [17:43]
mircea_popescu: then again growth is hard. [17:43]
mircea_popescu: << this is a much deeper problem anyway. emmylark chick is like "do you have a preference" re windows irc clients. i don't, i don't run windows. "what should i run ?" "err... we'll talk of this later, slut". which is fine, she's used to "you're too dumb to be told this story yet", EXCEPT in this case it's not her that's too dumb. [17:44]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 asciilifeform: n00b wants to run trb. which trb will he run ? [17:44]
mircea_popescu: << and as to this, as you might've noticed, moving to mirc from freenode webirc hasn't helped all that much. [17:45]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 21:38 trinque: caaddr: your connection through tor is going to end up irritating folks if the join/part gets too noisy. [17:45]
mircea_popescu: what can you do ? she's not setting up any bouncers as a three day old. [17:45]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in functional cultures, [17:53]
mircea_popescu: << not bad you're probably not too old to be useful for minigame, you know. [17:56]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 21:07 NoSatoshisHear: ex game engineer, ex intel architect, now too old to get hired. life summary. [17:56]
mircea_popescu: << for the obvious reason, became obvious ship is slowly sinking and rudderless in any case, time to move on. eh! [17:58]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 21:10 asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: why didja leave? [17:58]
mircea_popescu: << i'm unsure what this means. what does this mean ? [18:08]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 21:16 NoSatoshisHear: Read the all, love to read. Trilema leads out to all of you guys stuff, all 1% great stuff, and 99% personal wanglings. [18:08]
mircea_popescu: <<->> [18:10]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 21:19 NoSatoshisHear: so, I may make a fun shitcoin for lulz. I like the hellcoin idea. The block gets awarded to the last 10 suckers^h^h^h^h^h miners that put a "realcoin" into the chain. We start at $100 and let people "mine" with coins, last 10 when the timer ticks down get the block. [18:10]
mircea_popescu: !!up NoSatoshisHear [18:26]
deedbot: NoSatoshisHear voiced for 30 minutes. [18:26]
NoSatoshisHear: so sorry, came back for 'splaining... since I usually make no sense without lots of context. [18:27]
NoSatoshisHear: for MP, all 1% great stuff, and 99% personal wanglings. means 1% tech talk, love it, and 99% porn posts, personal shite, etc. Love it all. [18:28]
NoSatoshisHear: and almost a dollar auction, auctioneer gets nothing, puts up the initial $100, gets lot of lulz if the crowd ever starts trying to win on the money rake game. Demos of economics are just plain w00ty tooty fun times. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: hanbot hey, make a mp-wp install for the young'un ? i've a mind to publicly expose her. [18:33]
ben_vulpes: << in the "journal of negative results", china thing went ~nowhere, i had some 6-7 notional meatsacks try to use irc, one managed to reg a key and then fell off the map now waiting for bisp to come online to host on republican terms [18:33]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 22:43 mircea_popescu: << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding. [18:33]
mircea_popescu: NoSatoshisHear oh i see. verbs help you know! [18:33]
NoSatoshisHear: sorry, text talk, plus not editing my own shite leads to unclear communications. I know better, english professor grandma taught me proper diction, though I am lazy. [18:35]
mircea_popescu: honestly your coin idea isn't even bad, in theory. in practice it has a fundamental flaw. you see, bitcoin acts AS A CLOCK. this is its principal function. your thing has no clock. [18:35]
mircea_popescu: there's no intrinsic reason to close the auction if you solve this you may have something. [18:35]
NoSatoshisHear: centralized system, so one server counts the ticks, it would simply be a demo of reddit "the button" style idiocy combined with gambling. Sounds viral, like the 1918 flu. [18:37]
mircea_popescu: dumb solution. [18:37]
mircea_popescu: make a good solution. [18:37]
NoSatoshisHear: you got it, dumb. a working solution would be even dumber. [18:38]
mircea_popescu: yes, but a perfectly dumb item is as respectable as the perfect woman. [18:38]
mircea_popescu: the problems arise from imperfection. [18:38]
NoSatoshisHear: shitcoin nonsense combined with the current addicted gamblers might be a fun public spectacle. [18:38]
NoSatoshisHear: Would be even better if "hacked" in the end? [18:39]
NoSatoshisHear: Damn, I so want to tether, but I have morals unfortunately. [18:39]
mircea_popescu: lol [18:39]
NoSatoshisHear: So, come on, how many BC do you really have? Not like you could ever answer, but you are really not Satoshi, and really are the Romanian guy I looked up under IEEE? [18:40]
mircea_popescu: the who ? [18:40]
mircea_popescu: oh lol. they summoned up an imperial-flavoured alt-mp. has ~nothing to do with anything, and no other claim to fame besides "hey, we can pretend THIS is relevant". [18:41]
NoSatoshisHear: There is a Romanian named Mircea Popescu that is registered with the IEEE... You are not him, correct? [18:42]
mircea_popescu: correct. [18:44]
mircea_popescu: guy exists so google can pretend to misunderstand which mircea popescu people are looking for. [18:44]
mircea_popescu: not because it does anything, but because...well... it burns, what. [18:45]
NoSatoshisHear: John Does down the stack... Pseudonymity is the way to go, don't hide, drown in excess data... Lol, go for it Palantir [18:46]
mircea_popescu: eh, they've no fucking idea. but anyway. [18:47]
trinque: NoSatoshisHear: plenty of folks here with their actual names. [18:48]
NoSatoshisHear: exactly. I don't have any idea. Yup, looked up lots of folx with real names. Not like I hide much either. [18:48]
NoSatoshisHear: Just find the pseudo named people to be fun, and I am looking for fun. That and code fun. You have provided both. [18:50]
trinque: oh, do we get an upvote then? [18:51]
* trinque will show his mother [18:51]
NoSatoshisHear: damn, where is my reddit upgoat, since you have earned many. [18:51]
asciilifeform: oh hey more 'humans' : [18:51]
asciilifeform: !!up lurkymclurkerson [18:51]
deedbot: lurkymclurkerson voiced for 30 minutes. [18:51]
asciilifeform: hey NoSatoshisHear -- you say you read the ffa series ? in what order of complexity does modular exponentiation run ? [18:53]
asciilifeform: or , how about , NoSatoshisHear , you worked at intel yes ? in what chemistry was the i386 fabbed ? and roughly how many transistors on the die , to the nearest hundred thousand ? [18:55]
mircea_popescu: lol [18:56]
NoSatoshisHear: well per loper, I may have missed it, but I don't think that was covered in 1-8. [18:56]
asciilifeform: trinque start the clock whydontcha [18:56]
asciilifeform: ahahahahahahaha [18:56]
asciilifeform: that didn't take long. [19:00]
mircea_popescu: i don't think the fellow took your meaning. [19:01]
asciilifeform: let's see, [19:01]
asciilifeform: !!up NoSatoshisHear [19:01]
deedbot: NoSatoshisHear voiced for 30 minutes. [19:01]
NoSatoshisHear: no, I got it. [19:01]
ben_vulpes: it was right on time if you look at when he got voice [19:01]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: not that [19:01]
NoSatoshisHear: dudes, doesn't matter, was fun. [19:01]
NoSatoshisHear: Also, 2004 was 64 bit 586 days, so before my time. [19:03]
NoSatoshisHear: thx! [19:03]
asciilifeform: aaaaha. [19:03]
mircea_popescu: you are too harsh, alfie. [19:03]
asciilifeform: am not. [19:03]
asciilifeform: this was basic. [19:03]
mircea_popescu: how would we settle this dispute ? [19:03]
asciilifeform: and i fucking hate cheap ninjashoguns. [19:03]
mircea_popescu: there's no argument as to that. [19:04]
asciilifeform: dunno that there is any straight way to settle 'what is basic' . but rough measures of most-famous-products at company one supposedly worked at, is not imho 'cruel & unusual' puzzle [19:04]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding. << hmm. well whatever it is we do, I spend a lot of time doing it. happy to shut it down if it's not needed any more. [19:04]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then? [19:04]
mircea_popescu: the issue is not "what is basic", but "you are too harsh" / "am not" [19:05]
asciilifeform: aa sure. [19:05]
mircea_popescu: mod6 dun take it personal for one thing i'm hussling him not you. [19:05]
mod6: nothing personal. i feel like the foundation is a good thing maintaining all of the things re: trb. [19:05]
asciilifeform: '64bit 586' soo preshus [19:05]
mircea_popescu: so do i. [19:05]
mod6: but if there is the sentiment that it's not needed, then we should have that talk. [19:06]
mircea_popescu: jesus what a juggernaut this guy is. YO! that's not the sentiment. [19:06]
mod6: hehe, ok :] [19:07]
mircea_popescu: throw darts at ben_vulpes end up tackled by mod6 what is this, like teamwork ? [19:08]
asciilifeform: lol [19:08]
mod6: I think it's good that we're able to adjust to anything if need be. Tis' all. [19:09]
mod6: It's only as useful, as long as it's useful kinda thing. [19:09]
mircea_popescu: word. [19:09]
asciilifeform: mod6: it is useful now. and will be evenmoar useful when bisp and rack for nodes etc [19:10]
mod6: ^ indeed. [19:11]
mircea_popescu: i'm needling him about systems design matters because he's interested, and intelligent enough, and occasionally sparks from it. [19:12]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> n00b wants to run trb. which trb will he run ? << n00b runs what is available at -- there are some recent vpatches that will become mainline once I can get all of the things vetted more closely. [19:13]
asciilifeform: mod6: this was in response to a hypothetical 'but why do we even need releases' , not re current trb www [19:13]
asciilifeform: mod6: currently, and quite fortunately, there ~is~ a foundation, with releases . [19:14]
mod6: Some of this is my fault, I've been trying to keep up here. Getting kinda swampped with a bunch of things at once. But! These are all good things. FFA, eucrypt, ada, vtron stuff, et. al. [19:14]
mircea_popescu: it's expanding quite rapidly. [19:15]
mod6: Yeah, i agree, that 'releases' is kinda anti-V. [19:15]
asciilifeform: i dun see how 'anti' . a release is simply a type of vpress. [19:15]
asciilifeform: by particular people. [19:15]
mod6: However, until n00bs get into the fold with what 'V' is, they kinda need just 1 stable thing to build with a 1-button-push. Which means folding things in slowly. [19:15]
mod6: asciilifeform: by that i mean, 'you should choose your own adventure' -- each man pulls in the vpatches he desires. [19:16]
mod6: you read the code. [19:16]
mod6: you pull in the things you want, from the people you trust. [19:16]
mircea_popescu: aha. [19:16]
mod6: we'll get there. [19:16]
mod6: I'm so excited right now tbh. [19:18]
mircea_popescu: yeah me too! [19:18]
mod6: I'd like to see the Republic continue to expand the number of trb nodes we have available this year. There are activities currently afoot that immensly support that. Getting FFA vetted and used as a base lib really will help get the ball rolling for any proposed trbi. [19:20]
mod6: This year. Very excited & positive about that. [19:21]
asciilifeform: mod6: i dun particularly disagree with any of this, but the pov that 'vetting ffa' is a 1time thing, that can be done and then 'is done', imho is mistake : each user must read it ~himself~. [19:23]
asciilifeform: forever. [19:23]
asciilifeform: ( forever, that is, not for individual user, but for the sequence of n00bz ) [19:23]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sorta like "Each user must read darwin theory for himself" [19:23]
asciilifeform: aaha. [19:23]
asciilifeform: and euclid, etc [19:23]
mircea_popescu: yes, they must, but not with a view to validate theory of evolution with a view to expunge head cockroaches [19:23]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: i dun particularly disagree with any of this, but the pov that 'vetting ffa' is a 1time thing, that can be done and then 'is done', imho is mistake : each user must read it ~himself~. << I basically just mean for me & ben. [19:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right [19:24]
mod6: We have to understand every line. [19:24]
asciilifeform: just as we dun read euclid 'to validate euclid' [19:24]
mod6: The good news is, I started really digging into ada and your sneak-previews early last year. [19:24]
mod6: Thankfully I put the time in. [19:25]
asciilifeform: mod6: aha, you were among the earliest iirc to get on that ship [19:25]
mod6: I'm gonna get this vtron stuff out of the way, then dive in. I should be able to make it through the first 3 chapters pretty easily. I even wrote my own unit tests for those parts. [19:25]
asciilifeform: the other fortunate bit, at least re ffa, is that it is not complicated from the ada pov [19:25]
asciilifeform: ( this is deliberate ) [19:25]
mod6: yes. I'm starting to love ada, at least, syntactically. The way you've used it, is very straight forward -- at least once one understands how array access / slices work. [19:26]
asciilifeform: mod6: i have a feeling you'll love the ch8 homework. [19:26]
mod6: I think so too, I took a peek at it. I'm actually excited that you put homework problems in there. And I'll do 'em for sure. [19:27]
mod6: Honestly, I loved the homework for ffa_calc. That was awesome. [19:27]
mircea_popescu: << hey, i knew a guy who didn't finance (1980s!) porn ventures because "not interested in the loose women". bought "blue chip" fucking revlon and bs instead. i'm sure there's even today ossified mind going "i'm not into tmsr because i'm not interested in terrorism". hurr durr, you never know what things are really about. [19:27]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 21:28 NoSatoshisHear: I worked on digital coin in 2001, but tried to find a non-net solution, and finally just gave up. When you head the wrong way, you don't get there. Still feel stupid for not buying in at $5, but I had no interest in Silk Road. [19:27]
asciilifeform: dafuq even is -- even in principle -- 'non-net solution' to 'digital coin' [19:29]
asciilifeform: presumably meant the magical 'untamperable clipper chips' of the 1990s 'digital currency' derps [19:30]
asciilifeform: ( i dun know of anything else that could have fit this description ) [19:30]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not a novel concept to me -- coins that are only verified on exchange. [19:30]
asciilifeform: well yes. but 'verified' how [19:31]
mircea_popescu: well yes. [19:31]
mircea_popescu: but you can see the appeal. [19:31]
asciilifeform: i can also see the appeal of fart-powered flight [19:31]
mircea_popescu: hey, swear to me you never EVER consider it. [19:31]
asciilifeform: i considered errything, from perpetuum mobile up [19:31]
mircea_popescu: so there we go. [19:31]
asciilifeform: dun mean that it makes any sense. [19:31]
asciilifeform: !#s martian bank [19:31]
a111: 17 results for "martian bank", [19:31]
asciilifeform: ^ see also. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: this'd be his take on that. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: see, you can tell the guy is genuinely 60ish not just because of his specific pre-internet use of language but also because of his default mental models. [19:32]
mircea_popescu: martian bank, if you're born in say 1960s, is exactly "secret magical pocket knife" [19:32]
mod6: I'd like to make another positive mention here about TMSR~, if I may : one thing that really makes me smile is that all of us, no matter how busy, or whatever, are always willing to drop whatever it is to pitch in when the ship needs trimming. [19:33]
mircea_popescu: i think i pointed out somewhere how boys that've never seen a cunt still get wet dreams, but with boobs instead. same thing here -- before networks were well understood people still thought about network-like problems. just... in roman numerals. [19:33]
mod6: It's pretty fantastic all around. Very good things. [19:34]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: closest thing i ever came up with to 'analogue bitcoin' was a variant of , where you have a sheet of $glasslike and a thermal stressor gadget is used to crack it into N 'jigsaw' pieces idea being that adjacent pieces 'plug into' yours and can 'verify' it , and so on recursively [19:36]
a111: Logged on 2015-08-02 21:00 mircea_popescu: you buy 6x6 inch panbes of glass and crash them [19:36]
mircea_popescu: to put it tersely, i'm unsatisfied it doesn't work. [19:36]
mircea_popescu: which is like "i'm satisfied X", together with "hey, wait a minute, what if..." [19:37]
asciilifeform: it works, wat [19:37]
asciilifeform: glasscoin... [19:37]
mircea_popescu: i meant the supernode, [19:37]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-26 00:31 mircea_popescu: but you can see the appeal. [19:37]
asciilifeform: aa [19:37]
asciilifeform: even that 'works' for the usd value of 'works'.. [19:38]
mircea_popescu: that's not a value. [19:38]
trinque: << this ftr was said thinking that it *is* useful, wanted, etc. [19:41]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then? [19:41]
mod6: never hurts to ask a tough question. [19:42]
* trinque often does this to a person he thinks is qualified to give the argument [19:43]
mod6: I appreciate all your hard work / blood / sweat / tears on your trb adventure with deedbot. Your contributions are and will make a difference. This is why the republic is on top. We don't imagine the change we want to see in the world, WE MAKE THE CHANGE WE WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD. [19:44]
shinohai: ^ [19:44]
trinque: fuck yeah buddy. [19:45]
mod6: This goes for all Lords and Ladies too. If that wasn't obv. [19:45]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll admit to a curiosity to hear moar re 'unsatisfied that it doesn't work' [19:47]
mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied it doesn't work and not happy with this. [19:50]
asciilifeform: aaa. [19:50]
mircea_popescu: so therefore... unsatisfied it doesn't work. [19:50]
asciilifeform: fwiw a literal martian bank would probably work quite well. ( you might have to put it farther than mars, or even on a continually-moving craft , so as it could not be templar-molested by 'french king' ) [19:51]
asciilifeform: with the obvious physical gotchas. [19:51]
asciilifeform: and more generally, if one could park an rsa-speaking machine , of extraordinary physical resilience, somewhere nobody could reasonably get to, but can still maintain radio contact [19:53]
asciilifeform: ( 'machine' in the very general sense, you'd want >1 , which understand one another's keys and sync ) [19:54]
mircea_popescu: and who runs the craft, ? [19:54]
asciilifeform: program. [19:54]
mircea_popescu: oh oh oh i seee! [19:55]
mircea_popescu: a PROGRAM! [19:55]
asciilifeform: the orig scenario of course requires benevolent martian , who would gently pick up idjit humans who try to approach the box, like child picks up beetles, and puts'em elsewhere [19:55]
mircea_popescu: as the man said, "motherfucker, why didn't i think of that!" [19:55]
asciilifeform: lolyes [19:55]
asciilifeform: it's a gypsy chicken recipe [19:55]
asciilifeform: ( unsurprisingly, i'd hope, to errybody reading ) [19:56]
mircea_popescu: if you had that alien it'd be perhaps wiser to just let him figure out what to do himself ? [19:56]
asciilifeform: next thing , maxwell's daemon will also 'figure out what to do himself!11' lol [19:56]
mircea_popescu: doesn't it ? [19:56]
asciilifeform: i suppose. [19:57]
mircea_popescu: are you... unsatisfied that it does ? :D [19:58]
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness i will point out that 'who runs the craft' is a problem that exists just the same in current-day bitcoinism. [19:58]
asciilifeform: rather. [19:58]
mircea_popescu: oya [19:58]
asciilifeform: << for some reason my automatic default mental picture was the scene from film 'das boot' [20:21]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-26 00:33 mod6: I'd like to make another positive mention here about TMSR~, if I may : one thing that really makes me smile is that all of us, no matter how busy, or whatever, are always willing to drop whatever it is to pitch in when the ship needs trimming. [20:21]
mod6: i gotta see this movie now [22:08]
mod6: ok lemme see if i can do a bit of debugging on this mpwp and see if that really was the issue there. [22:49]
mod6: ok here's what I've learned. [23:05]
mod6: So if you manually extract the 'mpwp/blog/wp-includes/js/tinymce/plugins/wpgallery/img/gallery.png.svg' from the mp-wp_genesis.vpatch, and place it in a file, and attempt to base64 decode it, it fails to decode. [23:06]
mod6: Why? Because of the 'false' at the end of this line: ++6/l4BiDfMrebzvzrfh2UMH8cTMAsbHbPRFuih0reDbX30AD+17CB1JhgefoRhOIbIr3k3CDKGT false [23:07]
mod6: (note that in the genesis, there is an additional '+' at the front of the line) [23:08]
mod6: anyway, removing: ' false' from that line will indeed, yield the correct hash, and allow for a proper base64 decoding. [23:08]
mod6: 9e46f66499629dc2127e8ed8f0aebef467af1d18ceeb36326791ab201cd0bc0905236b3450c6c3944f6abea9c987fb0e28cc4cdadcec5c1834546173d816a893 gallery.png.svg.mod6_edit [23:09]
mod6: Perhaps something with the vdiff is doing this? Or maybe there was something weird in the original encoding of this image? But that seems to be the solution, remove that ' false' and that should work. [23:10]
mod6: <3 [23:13]
mircea_popescu: basically her svging of binaries did some inadvertent fuzzing of the whole vdiff process [23:30]
Category: Logs
Comments feed : RSS 2.0. Leave your own comment below, or send a trackback.
Add your cents! »
    If this is your first comment, it will wait to be approved. This usually takes a few hours. Subsequent comments are not delayed.