Forum logs for 26 Apr 2012

Saturday, 23 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
mircea_popescu jill ?! [00:01]
mircea_popescu that sounds like a service designed by a government mcorlett [00:01]
mcorlett mircea_popescu: If I told you I was a government contractor, what would you say? [00:03]
mircea_popescu that i am not surprised. [00:03]
BTC_Bear mcorlett: I'd say: Distribute the Wealth. [00:11]
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pigeons ugh, i think i'm viewing via rg's terminal today [00:13]
MarcZ Mqrius: are you from NL or belgium? [00:13]
Mqrius NL [00:13]
sytse 'Tot voor kort stond de over the counter valutamarkt niet onder toezicht. Dat is echter veranderd, waardoor het vertrouwen van beleggers in de actoren op deze markt toegenomen is.' -- Until a short time ago, the OTC currency trading was not under oversight. That has changed however, which has caused the trust of investors in the actors of this market to rise. (about the situation in the netherlands) [00:14]
sytse does that mean that in the netherlands, OTC trading between persons without any licence to do so is illegal? Or above a certain amount of money? Or only for mtgoxEUR and mtgoxUSD? Or none of that, because e-currencies are exempt? [00:15]
mircea_popescu uh ? wtf is that sytse ?! [00:16]
pigeons if ours leaders didn't give us a permission slip, we can't do it [00:16]
sytse or is that just for true markets, and not for individuals doing something that's one-on-one? [00:17]
pigeons if they lik you it doesn't apply; if they don't, you fall under it [00:18]
sytse the only question I'm trying to answer is this btw: say I buy 5 million mtgoxEUR from some dude I meet on the street, and wire him 5 million euros for them, would that be illegal? [00:19]
sytse (or worse, suspect to gift taxes if the government doesn't recognize the situation at all and sees it as two separate transactions) [00:20]
mircea_popescu yes, certainly./ [00:20]
mircea_popescu that's illegal in any jurisdiction since at least the 1980s [00:20]
sytse damn [00:20]
sytse and OTC buying of BTC would be equally illegal I suppose? [00:20]
sytse or does that depend on whether BTC would be seen as a 'currency' or not? [00:21]
mircea_popescu it depends on whether you wire sums in excess of 10k a year to unknown parties. [00:21]
guruvan in one view, bitcoin is simply a "digital good" to be bought and sold like any other good [00:22]
guruvan in the other, it's a currency, subject to the laws that you're talking about [00:23]
guruvan to my knowledge, no government has acknoledged that bitcoin is a currency [00:23]
guruvan the mtgoxEUR to cash EUR is a good example of something very likely to run afoul of the law [00:24]
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BTC_Bear HOW about selling: http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2160401/82022957.jpg for say 100 fiat and get 25 BTC coupons? [00:25]
mircea_popescu btw, any prostitution going on on silkroad yet ? [00:26]
BTC_Bear Have to love Art. Don't ya? [00:26]
guruvan looks like you'd be selling goods [00:26]
guruvan BTC_Bear: my brother makes silmilar "bugs" out of old chips and boards & such :D [00:26]
guruvan mircea_popescu: haven't seen that! Might check BMR, they have more lax rules [00:27]
sytse mircea_popescu: sums in excess of 10k a year have nothing to do with it in the netherlands; in principle, you should pay 30% taxes if you give someone 10 euros. They don't check lower gifts usually but the law says you should pay [00:27]
BTC_Bear Believe it or not: I knew scalpers that would sell 'Art' paper clips and you'd get a free sports ticket. [00:27]
vragnaroda sytse: OK but what's the evidentiary standard for determining when a monetary gift was made? [00:28]
vragnaroda That probably does have a limit. [00:28]
guruvan there's tons of legal loopholes like that [00:28]
vragnaroda ”Here's €20, go buy me a pack of smokes and give me my change back.” [00:28]
mircea_popescu legal loopholes usefullness is entirely contingent on how good a lawyer you have. [00:28]
mircea_popescu no lawyer, no loopholes. [00:28]
vragnaroda “OK, have a fag.” [00:28]
sytse mircea_popescu: :P [00:28]
mircea_popescu back to the issue : the 10k limit has nothing to do with being in dutchland or anywhere else. [00:29]
vragnaroda Money changed hands both times, you're paid for picking them up, etc. [00:29]
vragnaroda I doubt that'd be admissible in a tax court as a gift, though. [00:29]
vragnaroda If evidence of some event is inadmissible, saying it's illegal doesn't really make much sense. [00:30]
mircea_popescu i fail to follow this reasoning. [00:30]
sytse vragnaroda: it's actually pretty damn tight in the netherlands; even when you borrow someone € 10k for a year, they figure that guy should've paid € 600 interest, and if he doesn't, he'll have to pay € 200 in gift taxes [00:31]
guruvan <10k only mitigates the potential for discovery [00:31]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: If €10 gifts must be reported for tax purposes, but evidence of transfers of €10 are inadmissible, saying it's illegal not to report them isn't very meaningful. [00:31]
sytse vragnaroda: because interest that isn't paid is seen as a gift [00:31]
mircea_popescu o, that. [00:32]
mircea_popescu i seriously doubt they get that level of granularity. [00:32]
vragnaroda sytse: Yeah, I get that. While the text of the law may require reporting €10 gifts, though, the law probably contradicts that in the rules of evidence. [00:33]
guruvan hmm....as I see digital tools that have the capability of monitoring micro-transactions like that, I suspect someone's gonna try to get to that granularity with lots of tracking [00:33]
vragnaroda (Also, that's the type of bullshit that caused my sister-in-law's family to leave the Netherlands.) [00:33]
mircea_popescu guruvan : those transactions are prolly cash based. [00:33]
vragnaroda Texas, Georgia, California, and Florida is where they all live now. :D [00:34]
mircea_popescu but otherwise yes : outside of romania most of the eu is a socialist cesspool. [00:34]
guruvan they're (we're?) trying to get rid of most uses of paper cash though it would seem [00:34]
mircea_popescu the big secret about cash is that it is more expensive than it's worth. [00:35]
mircea_popescu so im not surprised governments would like to be rid of it. [00:35]
guruvan way more [00:35]
mircea_popescu way they're seeing it is this huge outlay "tehy" pay for so that people can more easily disregard their laws. no brainer. [00:35]
vragnaroda Seigniorage with no cost is a pretty fucking sweet deal for governments. [00:35]
guruvan easier to control the money supply without A) untraceable monies and B) "hoardable" monies [00:35]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: Actually, the Government Accountability Office recently had to do a study about the feasibility of getting rid of the $1 note and their conclusion was that we should because it'd mean more seigniorage as $1 pieces fill up more change jars instead of actually being used. [00:37]
mircea_popescu im not terribly surprised. [00:37]
vragnaroda When you account for the cost of production and the lifetime of the coins/notes, the U.S. $1 note is cheaper, though. [00:38]
mircea_popescu still more expensive than $1. [00:38]
mircea_popescu incidentally the us is amusing, the highest bill is 100, which is worth squat. romania has a 500 lei bill (~150 usd) and salaries here are on average ~600usd. [00:39]
mircea_popescu trying to pay anything in cash in the us is already doomed, who's gonna carry around a semi full of 20 dollar bills. [00:39]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: The highest-denominated U.S. bill ever circulated is the $10,000 bill. There was also a $100,000 bill but it was only used internally within the Federal Reserve. [00:40]
mircea_popescu i know. [00:41]
vragnaroda Specie would be so much better, though. [00:41]
mircea_popescu i doubt that. [00:41]
mircea_popescu bitcoin is full of gold bugs, but imo specie is nonsense. [00:41]
vragnaroda For carrying around large values, nothing beats it so far. [00:41]
mircea_popescu bitcoin for one. [00:42]
vragnaroda (Some definitely carry it too far, though.) [00:42]
mircea_popescu an ACTUAL banking system, as in, one that speaks to NO ONE also does. [00:42]
mircea_popescu we used to have that in yurp, [00:42]
mircea_popescu before we foolishly went around looking for the west indies. [00:42]
vragnaroda No, you can carry around a lot more value in specie than the current value of all bitcoins. [00:42]
mircea_popescu give it a few years tho [00:43]
vragnaroda Free banking would be fucking awesome, though. [00:43]
mircea_popescu yes. [00:43]
mircea_popescu the lombards had it, the hospitaliers had it, the mob fucken had it, [00:43]
mircea_popescu everyone had it except this recent welfare bullshit. [00:43]
vragnaroda Well, I think I'd like to repeal Article II of the U.S. Constitution and replace it with different institutions. [00:45]
mircea_popescu or else start respecting it. [00:46]
vragnaroda (That's the Executive branch.) [00:46]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: I don't think that's going to happen while we have this momentum toward concentrating power in the Executive branch. [00:46]
mircea_popescu problems would be easily resolved by say the congress making no allocation of any funds to it for 5 years. [00:46]
vragnaroda Sure, problems would be easily resolved if Congress weren't such pathetic imbeciles. [00:47]
mircea_popescu aha. [00:47]
mircea_popescu so then don't fix the unbroken to compensate the idiotic. [00:47]
vragnaroda Well, Congress is broken, too, but it's not the worst. It's the symptom. [00:49]
vragnaroda We don't need a personality cult presidency, though, and now they're talking about this national popular vote bullshit, which'll only make that worse. [00:50]
mircea_popescu it's what people want. [00:50]
vragnaroda My fuckwad Congressman is retiring though and good riddance. [00:51]
vragnaroda lol [00:51]
mircea_popescu romania also has a "popular" president. course, this one is actually pretty competent, but still. [00:51]
vragnaroda People are stupid. Fuck them. [00:51]
vragnaroda Romania's also a lot smaller. [00:51]
mircea_popescu but significantly more idiotic. [00:51]
vragnaroda We have popular elections for mayor, too. :p [00:52]
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vragnaroda .wa population romania [00:52]
markac Romania->population;21.2 million people (world rank: 55th) (2010 estimate);population->21.2 million people (world rank: 55th) (2010 estimate), population density->239 people/mi^2 (people per square mile) (world rank: 110th) (2010 estimate), population growth->-0.414 %/yr (world rank: 231st) (2008 estimate), life expectancy->72.5 years (world rank: 121st) (2009 estimate), median age->37.7 years (world rank: 49th) (2009 estimate [00:52]
mircea_popescu ~20mn last census [00:52]
vragnaroda .wa (population density romania)/(population density united states) [00:53]
markac Romania->population density/United States->population density;2.74 (2010 estimates) [00:53]
vragnaroda Hmm… that's not so bad. [00:54]
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mircea_popescu myea [00:56]
mircea_popescu .wa (population density eu)/(population density united states) [00:56]
markac European Union->population density/United States->population density;3.52 (2010, 2008, and 2010 estimates) [00:57]
guruvan mircea_popescu: how does one take delivery of the O.HASH options? (or provide them) - how are those options covered? [01:23]
mircea_popescu they're currently cash settled. [01:24]
guruvan ah [01:24]
mircea_popescu in principle delivery could be arranged, but hash power is a finnicy thing [01:24]
guruvan cool [01:24]
guruvan :D [01:24]
guruvan yeah - that makes it super easy to understand how they work [01:24]
guruvan was concerned I might have to deliver hashes :D [01:25]
mircea_popescu a, no. [01:25]
mircea_popescu the theoretical possibility exists to take or make physical delivery, but only negotiated in advance etc. much like irl comm. futures i guess. [01:25]
guruvan sure [01:26]
guruvan makes sense [01:26]
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mircea_popescu mk, so fair warning to interested parties : friday is closing day of the month for mpoe, will be some announcements, all good news. [01:46]
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mircea_popescu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip [02:22]
mircea_popescu While other online games may not provide scrip in the form of virtual currency or may not redeem it for real legal tender, an active market in trading virtual assets acquired in-game may still exist outside the game, cf. Bitcoin. In some cases, this may involve payments in real legal tender (e.g., trading of in-game assets on eBay). This, too, can be considered a modern form of scrip. [02:22]
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guruvan SLLs [02:33]
mircea_popescu sll? [02:34]
guruvan second life linden (dollar) [02:35]
mircea_popescu a a [02:35]
guruvan supposedly have no value out-of-game, but are actively traded outside (i.e. virwox) [02:35]
guruvan I'm not sure what the real distinction is between "scrip" and "money" [02:36]
mircea_popescu yah [02:36]
mircea_popescu well, pretty much that scrip is privately issued. [02:36]
vragnaroda .w scrip [02:36]
markac scrip — noun: 1. a small medieval bag used to carry food, money, utensils etc, 2. small change [02:36]
* vragnaroda smacks Wiktionary. [02:37]
guruvan most money throughout history has been privately issued [02:37]
rawrmage .w pony [02:37]
markac pony — noun: 1. Any of several small breeds of horse under 14.2 hands, 2. (regional) A small serving of an alcoholic beverage — verb: 1. (trans.) To lead (a horse) from another horse — adjective: 1. (Cockney rhyming slang) Of little worth [02:37]
rawrmage .wik my little pony: friendship is magic [02:37]
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guruvan didn't know the adjective definition [02:37]
markac "My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is an animated television series that premiered on October 10, 2010, on the United States cable network The Hub." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_Magic [02:37]
mircea_popescu guruvan thats not true. most money has been issued by whoever was head of matters politic. [02:38]
vragnaroda guruvan: Well, most people don't know much of Cockney rhyming slang. [02:39]
guruvan oh i don't know - there's been deposit receipts (for metal money) in china for a long long time before that started. heads of politic thing is a more recent phenomenon [02:39]
vragnaroda (Other than things like antiseptic means anti-American and such.) [02:39]
guruvan lol [02:40]
vragnaroda (And from that, Listerine means anti-American, too.) [02:40]
guruvan as in [02:40]
guruvan get that damn Listerine program off the telly? [02:40]
vragnaroda Yank → septic tank [02:41]
vragnaroda It's not very creative. [02:41]
guruvan but descriptive nonetheless [02:41]
mircea_popescu lets see. no googling nao. [02:41]
mircea_popescu bristol cities ? [02:41]
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mircea_popescu nothing ? aww. [02:42]
mircea_popescu fine. butcher's hook ? [02:43]
mircea_popescu mmm, artful dodger ? [02:43]
guruvan ? got me completely [02:43]
mircea_popescu lol k. bristol cities = titties [02:44]
mircea_popescu has been for over two centuries. [02:44]
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mircea_popescu butcher's hook is a look and artful dodger is a lodger. [02:44]
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* Now talking on #bitcoin-otc-eu [10:38]
* Topic for #bitcoin-otc-eu is: Eurozone #bitcoin-otc || http://bitcoin-otc.com || Include hash tag #eu in order notes to group -eu orders. || View all tagged -eu orders here: http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php?notes=%23eu || Exchange rates: !bc,convert CURRENCYCODE || GET BTC WITH ukash/paysafecard ... /msg neliskybot help || options-> http://polimedia.us/btc || bitcoin hosting -> http://bitvps.com/ [10:38]
* Topic for #bitcoin-otc-eu set by kakobrekla!~T42@89-212-41-49.static.t-2.net at Fri Apr 20 21:40:27 2012 [10:38]
mircea_popescu so i take it everyone has seen http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/mf_bitcoin/ ? [10:39]
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mircea_popescu Then Wagner became the target of a countercampaign that publicized a successful lawsuit against him for mortgage fraud, costing him much of his reputation within the community. [11:43]
mircea_popescu mmm, i didn't know that one. [11:43]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: wut [11:46]
mircea_popescu apparently. [11:46]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: What are you quoting from? [11:46]
mircea_popescu link above. [11:47]
vragnaroda Oh, duh. [11:48]
vragnaroda I didn't see that. [11:48]
vragnaroda Oh that article. [11:48]
vragnaroda lol [11:48]
ColdHardMetal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40404.0 [11:48]
ColdHardMetal some Wagner back story [11:49]
vragnaroda ColdHardMetal: The Brokeback Mountain/Cub Scout camp mashup? [11:49]
mircea_popescu apparently from before my time, and i guess i didn't have him on the research list. [11:49]
ColdHardMetal no, this is his mortgae fraud scandal thingy [11:49]
mircea_popescu btw, ColdHardMetal : you workingwith glbse in any capacity ? [11:50]
ColdHardMetal yes. I'm the accountant/secretary of the investors group behind the exchange. [11:50]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: Well, he always seemed foolishly inept with anything technical and always had “Manny” (his assistant) helping him and his Bitcoin show had this weird vibe going between them, anyway. [11:50]
ColdHardMetal not a developer or coder. [11:51]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: The mortgage shit, I heard about after all the brouhaha over Thailand. [11:51]
mircea_popescu ColdHardMetal ok, so, maybe you want to pass along the following observation : https://glbse.com/asset/view/gigamining [11:51]
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mircea_popescu apparently the htaccess has at least one problem. [11:51]
mircea_popescu vragnaroda i wrote up all the weird vibe to being gay. [11:52]
mircea_popescu i dunno, i watched about 15 minutes of a show thingee, twas kind fo unbearable for me. [11:52]
ColdHardMetal I can access that page ok when I log in. [11:52]
mircea_popescu but if you don't log in ? [11:53]
mircea_popescu all i get is a huge Internal Server Error. [11:53]
ColdHardMetal yeah, link no worky [11:53]
ColdHardMetal I'll pass that along [11:53]
mircea_popescu prolly a bad nocase somewhere. [11:53]
ColdHardMetal I'll take your word for it lol [11:54]
mircea_popescu :p [11:54]
vragnaroda mircea_popescu: Yeah, and I still haven't seen anything more about it than that. (He does seem to like them young but a fag referring to ‘virgin boys’ to refer to young men of age seems likely.) My objections to him were (a) his technical ineptitude, (b) his pushing mybitcoin (before the owner made it hisbitcoin), and (c) he wasn't a really good speaker, anyway. [11:55]
vragnaroda The mortgage thing is what really made my opinion of him turn negative. [11:55]
mircea_popescu i didn't realise i had any use for an opinion of him tbh [11:56]
ColdHardMetal he's old news really. [11:56]
vragnaroda lol [11:57]
vragnaroda http://catpa.ws/pics/buyavietnamesewife.jpg [11:57]
ColdHardMetal comes with a warranty. sweet. [11:58]
mircea_popescu ya, mine better not run off within a year or i'll be all over consumer affairs. [12:02]
mircea_popescu Finney, who has blogged eloquently about being diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, sent his denial in an email: “Under my current circumstances, facing limited life expectancy, I would have little to lose by shedding anonymity. But it was not I.” [12:03]
mircea_popescu you know, you have to applaud someone in that position that passes on the opportunity. [12:04]
mircea_popescu if he had wanted eh could have claimed, and been the hero for at least till he died. [12:04]
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kakobrekla mornin [13:50]
mircea_popescu hi [13:51]
mircea_popescu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDXYzUlv0S8 [13:57]
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rg mornin [15:47]
jurov afternoon [15:57]
jurov rg, yesterday the bvps price tanked, where were you ? :D [15:58]
rg i was at the US Dept of State all day [15:58]
rg major hassle [15:58]
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rg i walked out to our livingroom to feed off the misery that was in there last night [16:13]
rg (a large sporting match was lost) [16:14]
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amiga4000 !bc,convert eur [16:28]
gribble 1 BTC = 5.10800 U.S. dollars = 3.85305876 Euros [16:28]
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mcorlett I received some spam from "Mercia Akume". [16:47]
mcorlett That's surprisingly similar to mircea_popescu. [16:48]
rg h [16:52]
rg m [16:52]
rg thing 1 + thing 2 = PROOF [16:52]
rg mircea spammed you [16:52]
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mcorlett ;;seen markedathome [17:26]
gribble markedathome was last seen in #bitcoin-otc-eu 1 day, 1 hour, 38 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: mcorlett: i'll help test if it is needed within the next 4 hours [17:26]
mcorlett .py [17:31]
markac AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'encode' (file "/Users/markcornelius/src/phenny/modules/calc.py", line 95, in py) [17:31]
rg owned [17:32]
mcorlett lol [17:32]
mcorlett FPD [17:32]
mcorlett rg: This might need your attention: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54467.msg869362#msg869362 [17:39]
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rg i already tried to talk to them [17:59]
rg im waiting on them [17:59]
rg and theyre waiting on me [17:59]
rg it was a mixup between our records on the DC's records [17:59]
rg it is quite possibly the worst snafu [17:59]
rg ever [17:59]
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rg oh man you know whayt i just realized [18:27]
rg i can get my paypal back now [18:27]
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rg ;;ticker [20:09]
gribble Best bid: 5.06929, Best ask: 5.07484, Bid-ask spread: 0.00555, Last trade: 5.09883, 24 hour volume: 60563, 24 hour low: 4.99, 24 hour high: 5.18 [20:09]
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JWU_42 ;;estimate [21:56]
gribble Error: "estimate" is not a valid command. [21:56]
JWU_42 ;;bc,estimate [21:57]
gribble 1518901.53764116 [21:57]
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deegy_ test [23:22]
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jurov test failed [23:30]
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mircea_popescu mcorlett that's similar to my foot. [23:57]
mcorlett I am Mircea Popescu the only daughter of late Mr and Mrs Popescu. My father was a very wealthy cocoa merchant in Abidjan Ivory Coast (Cote d' Ivoire), my father was poisoned to death by his business associates on one of their outings on a business trip. [23:58]
mcorlett There is drama everywhere! [23:59]
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