Forum logs for 26 Apr 2012
Saturday, 23 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
mircea_popescu | jill ?! | [00:01] |
mircea_popescu | that sounds like a service designed by a government mcorlett | [00:01] |
mcorlett | mircea_popescu: If I told you I was a government contractor, what would you say? | [00:03] |
mircea_popescu | that i am not surprised. | [00:03] |
BTC_Bear | mcorlett: I'd say: Distribute the Wealth. | [00:11] |
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pigeons | ugh, i think i'm viewing via rg's terminal today | [00:13] |
MarcZ | Mqrius: are you from NL or belgium? | [00:13] |
Mqrius | NL | [00:13] |
sytse | 'Tot voor kort stond de over the counter valutamarkt niet onder toezicht. Dat is echter veranderd, waardoor het vertrouwen van beleggers in de actoren op deze markt toegenomen is.' -- Until a short time ago, the OTC currency trading was not under oversight. That has changed however, which has caused the trust of investors in the actors of this market to rise. (about the situation in the netherlands) | [00:14] |
sytse | does that mean that in the netherlands, OTC trading between persons without any licence to do so is illegal? Or above a certain amount of money? Or only for mtgoxEUR and mtgoxUSD? Or none of that, because e-currencies are exempt? | [00:15] |
mircea_popescu | uh ? wtf is that sytse ?! | [00:16] |
pigeons | if ours leaders didn't give us a permission slip, we can't do it | [00:16] |
sytse | or is that just for true markets, and not for individuals doing something that's one-on-one? | [00:17] |
pigeons | if they lik you it doesn't apply; if they don't, you fall under it | [00:18] |
sytse | the only question I'm trying to answer is this btw: say I buy 5 million mtgoxEUR from some dude I meet on the street, and wire him 5 million euros for them, would that be illegal? | [00:19] |
sytse | (or worse, suspect to gift taxes if the government doesn't recognize the situation at all and sees it as two separate transactions) | [00:20] |
mircea_popescu | yes, certainly./ | [00:20] |
mircea_popescu | that's illegal in any jurisdiction since at least the 1980s | [00:20] |
sytse | damn | [00:20] |
sytse | and OTC buying of BTC would be equally illegal I suppose? | [00:20] |
sytse | or does that depend on whether BTC would be seen as a 'currency' or not? | [00:21] |
mircea_popescu | it depends on whether you wire sums in excess of 10k a year to unknown parties. | [00:21] |
guruvan | in one view, bitcoin is simply a "digital good" to be bought and sold like any other good | [00:22] |
guruvan | in the other, it's a currency, subject to the laws that you're talking about | [00:23] |
guruvan | to my knowledge, no government has acknoledged that bitcoin is a currency | [00:23] |
guruvan | the mtgoxEUR to cash EUR is a good example of something very likely to run afoul of the law | [00:24] |
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BTC_Bear | HOW about selling: http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2160401/82022957.jpg for say 100 fiat and get 25 BTC coupons? | [00:25] |
mircea_popescu | btw, any prostitution going on on silkroad yet ? | [00:26] |
BTC_Bear | Have to love Art. Don't ya? | [00:26] |
guruvan | looks like you'd be selling goods | [00:26] |
guruvan | BTC_Bear: my brother makes silmilar "bugs" out of old chips and boards & such :D | [00:26] |
guruvan | mircea_popescu: haven't seen that! Might check BMR, they have more lax rules | [00:27] |
sytse | mircea_popescu: sums in excess of 10k a year have nothing to do with it in the netherlands; in principle, you should pay 30% taxes if you give someone 10 euros. They don't check lower gifts usually but the law says you should pay | [00:27] |
BTC_Bear | Believe it or not: I knew scalpers that would sell 'Art' paper clips and you'd get a free sports ticket. | [00:27] |
vragnaroda | sytse: OK but what's the evidentiary standard for determining when a monetary gift was made? | [00:28] |
vragnaroda | That probably does have a limit. | [00:28] |
guruvan | there's tons of legal loopholes like that | [00:28] |
vragnaroda | ”Here's €20, go buy me a pack of smokes and give me my change back.” | [00:28] |
mircea_popescu | legal loopholes usefullness is entirely contingent on how good a lawyer you have. | [00:28] |
mircea_popescu | no lawyer, no loopholes. | [00:28] |
vragnaroda | “OK, have a fag.” | [00:28] |
sytse | mircea_popescu: :P | [00:28] |
mircea_popescu | back to the issue : the 10k limit has nothing to do with being in dutchland or anywhere else. | [00:29] |
vragnaroda | Money changed hands both times, you're paid for picking them up, etc. | [00:29] |
vragnaroda | I doubt that'd be admissible in a tax court as a gift, though. | [00:29] |
vragnaroda | If evidence of some event is inadmissible, saying it's illegal doesn't really make much sense. | [00:30] |
mircea_popescu | i fail to follow this reasoning. | [00:30] |
sytse | vragnaroda: it's actually pretty damn tight in the netherlands; even when you borrow someone € 10k for a year, they figure that guy should've paid € 600 interest, and if he doesn't, he'll have to pay € 200 in gift taxes | [00:31] |
guruvan | <10k only mitigates the potential for discovery | [00:31] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: If €10 gifts must be reported for tax purposes, but evidence of transfers of €10 are inadmissible, saying it's illegal not to report them isn't very meaningful. | [00:31] |
sytse | vragnaroda: because interest that isn't paid is seen as a gift | [00:31] |
mircea_popescu | o, that. | [00:32] |
mircea_popescu | i seriously doubt they get that level of granularity. | [00:32] |
vragnaroda | sytse: Yeah, I get that. While the text of the law may require reporting €10 gifts, though, the law probably contradicts that in the rules of evidence. | [00:33] |
guruvan | hmm....as I see digital tools that have the capability of monitoring micro-transactions like that, I suspect someone's gonna try to get to that granularity with lots of tracking | [00:33] |
vragnaroda | (Also, that's the type of bullshit that caused my sister-in-law's family to leave the Netherlands.) | [00:33] |
mircea_popescu | guruvan : those transactions are prolly cash based. | [00:33] |
vragnaroda | Texas, Georgia, California, and Florida is where they all live now. :D | [00:34] |
mircea_popescu | but otherwise yes : outside of romania most of the eu is a socialist cesspool. | [00:34] |
guruvan | they're (we're?) trying to get rid of most uses of paper cash though it would seem | [00:34] |
mircea_popescu | the big secret about cash is that it is more expensive than it's worth. | [00:35] |
mircea_popescu | so im not surprised governments would like to be rid of it. | [00:35] |
guruvan | way more | [00:35] |
mircea_popescu | way they're seeing it is this huge outlay "tehy" pay for so that people can more easily disregard their laws. no brainer. | [00:35] |
vragnaroda | Seigniorage with no cost is a pretty fucking sweet deal for governments. | [00:35] |
guruvan | easier to control the money supply without A) untraceable monies and B) "hoardable" monies | [00:35] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: Actually, the Government Accountability Office recently had to do a study about the feasibility of getting rid of the $1 note and their conclusion was that we should because it'd mean more seigniorage as $1 pieces fill up more change jars instead of actually being used. | [00:37] |
mircea_popescu | im not terribly surprised. | [00:37] |
vragnaroda | When you account for the cost of production and the lifetime of the coins/notes, the U.S. $1 note is cheaper, though. | [00:38] |
mircea_popescu | still more expensive than $1. | [00:38] |
mircea_popescu | incidentally the us is amusing, the highest bill is 100, which is worth squat. romania has a 500 lei bill (~150 usd) and salaries here are on average ~600usd. | [00:39] |
mircea_popescu | trying to pay anything in cash in the us is already doomed, who's gonna carry around a semi full of 20 dollar bills. | [00:39] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: The highest-denominated U.S. bill ever circulated is the $10,000 bill. There was also a $100,000 bill but it was only used internally within the Federal Reserve. | [00:40] |
mircea_popescu | i know. | [00:41] |
vragnaroda | Specie would be so much better, though. | [00:41] |
mircea_popescu | i doubt that. | [00:41] |
mircea_popescu | bitcoin is full of gold bugs, but imo specie is nonsense. | [00:41] |
vragnaroda | For carrying around large values, nothing beats it so far. | [00:41] |
mircea_popescu | bitcoin for one. | [00:42] |
vragnaroda | (Some definitely carry it too far, though.) | [00:42] |
mircea_popescu | an ACTUAL banking system, as in, one that speaks to NO ONE also does. | [00:42] |
mircea_popescu | we used to have that in yurp, | [00:42] |
mircea_popescu | before we foolishly went around looking for the west indies. | [00:42] |
vragnaroda | No, you can carry around a lot more value in specie than the current value of all bitcoins. | [00:42] |
mircea_popescu | give it a few years tho | [00:43] |
vragnaroda | Free banking would be fucking awesome, though. | [00:43] |
mircea_popescu | yes. | [00:43] |
mircea_popescu | the lombards had it, the hospitaliers had it, the mob fucken had it, | [00:43] |
mircea_popescu | everyone had it except this recent welfare bullshit. | [00:43] |
vragnaroda | Well, I think I'd like to repeal Article II of the U.S. Constitution and replace it with different institutions. | [00:45] |
mircea_popescu | or else start respecting it. | [00:46] |
vragnaroda | (That's the Executive branch.) | [00:46] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: I don't think that's going to happen while we have this momentum toward concentrating power in the Executive branch. | [00:46] |
mircea_popescu | problems would be easily resolved by say the congress making no allocation of any funds to it for 5 years. | [00:46] |
vragnaroda | Sure, problems would be easily resolved if Congress weren't such pathetic imbeciles. | [00:47] |
mircea_popescu | aha. | [00:47] |
mircea_popescu | so then don't fix the unbroken to compensate the idiotic. | [00:47] |
vragnaroda | Well, Congress is broken, too, but it's not the worst. It's the symptom. | [00:49] |
vragnaroda | We don't need a personality cult presidency, though, and now they're talking about this national popular vote bullshit, which'll only make that worse. | [00:50] |
mircea_popescu | it's what people want. | [00:50] |
vragnaroda | My fuckwad Congressman is retiring though and good riddance. | [00:51] |
vragnaroda | lol | [00:51] |
mircea_popescu | romania also has a "popular" president. course, this one is actually pretty competent, but still. | [00:51] |
vragnaroda | People are stupid. Fuck them. | [00:51] |
vragnaroda | Romania's also a lot smaller. | [00:51] |
mircea_popescu | but significantly more idiotic. | [00:51] |
vragnaroda | We have popular elections for mayor, too. :p | [00:52] |
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vragnaroda | .wa population romania | [00:52] |
markac | Romania->population;21.2 million people (world rank: 55th) (2010 estimate);population->21.2 million people (world rank: 55th) (2010 estimate), population density->239 people/mi^2 (people per square mile) (world rank: 110th) (2010 estimate), population growth->-0.414 %/yr (world rank: 231st) (2008 estimate), life expectancy->72.5 years (world rank: 121st) (2009 estimate), median age->37.7 years (world rank: 49th) (2009 estimate | [00:52] |
mircea_popescu | ~20mn last census | [00:52] |
vragnaroda | .wa (population density romania)/(population density united states) | [00:53] |
markac | Romania->population density/United States->population density;2.74 (2010 estimates) | [00:53] |
vragnaroda | Hmm… that's not so bad. | [00:54] |
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mircea_popescu | myea | [00:56] |
mircea_popescu | .wa (population density eu)/(population density united states) | [00:56] |
markac | European Union->population density/United States->population density;3.52 (2010, 2008, and 2010 estimates) | [00:57] |
guruvan | mircea_popescu: how does one take delivery of the O.HASH options? (or provide them) - how are those options covered? | [01:23] |
mircea_popescu | they're currently cash settled. | [01:24] |
guruvan | ah | [01:24] |
mircea_popescu | in principle delivery could be arranged, but hash power is a finnicy thing | [01:24] |
guruvan | cool | [01:24] |
guruvan | :D | [01:24] |
guruvan | yeah - that makes it super easy to understand how they work | [01:24] |
guruvan | was concerned I might have to deliver hashes :D | [01:25] |
mircea_popescu | a, no. | [01:25] |
mircea_popescu | the theoretical possibility exists to take or make physical delivery, but only negotiated in advance etc. much like irl comm. futures i guess. | [01:25] |
guruvan | sure | [01:26] |
guruvan | makes sense | [01:26] |
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mircea_popescu | mk, so fair warning to interested parties : friday is closing day of the month for mpoe, will be some announcements, all good news. | [01:46] |
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mircea_popescu | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip | [02:22] |
mircea_popescu | While other online games may not provide scrip in the form of virtual currency or may not redeem it for real legal tender, an active market in trading virtual assets acquired in-game may still exist outside the game, cf. Bitcoin. In some cases, this may involve payments in real legal tender (e.g., trading of in-game assets on eBay). This, too, can be considered a modern form of scrip. | [02:22] |
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guruvan | SLLs | [02:33] |
mircea_popescu | sll? | [02:34] |
guruvan | second life linden (dollar) | [02:35] |
mircea_popescu | a a | [02:35] |
guruvan | supposedly have no value out-of-game, but are actively traded outside (i.e. virwox) | [02:35] |
guruvan | I'm not sure what the real distinction is between "scrip" and "money" | [02:36] |
mircea_popescu | yah | [02:36] |
mircea_popescu | well, pretty much that scrip is privately issued. | [02:36] |
vragnaroda | .w scrip | [02:36] |
markac | scrip — noun: 1. a small medieval bag used to carry food, money, utensils etc, 2. small change | [02:36] |
* | vragnaroda smacks Wiktionary. | [02:37] |
guruvan | most money throughout history has been privately issued | [02:37] |
rawrmage | .w pony | [02:37] |
markac | pony — noun: 1. Any of several small breeds of horse under 14.2 hands, 2. (regional) A small serving of an alcoholic beverage — verb: 1. (trans.) To lead (a horse) from another horse — adjective: 1. (Cockney rhyming slang) Of little worth | [02:37] |
rawrmage | .wik my little pony: friendship is magic | [02:37] |
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guruvan | didn't know the adjective definition | [02:37] |
markac | "My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is an animated television series that premiered on October 10, 2010, on the United States cable network The Hub." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_Magic | [02:37] |
mircea_popescu | guruvan thats not true. most money has been issued by whoever was head of matters politic. | [02:38] |
vragnaroda | guruvan: Well, most people don't know much of Cockney rhyming slang. | [02:39] |
guruvan | oh i don't know - there's been deposit receipts (for metal money) in china for a long long time before that started. heads of politic thing is a more recent phenomenon | [02:39] |
vragnaroda | (Other than things like antiseptic means anti-American and such.) | [02:39] |
guruvan | lol | [02:40] |
vragnaroda | (And from that, Listerine means anti-American, too.) | [02:40] |
guruvan | as in | [02:40] |
guruvan | get that damn Listerine program off the telly? | [02:40] |
vragnaroda | Yank → septic tank | [02:41] |
vragnaroda | It's not very creative. | [02:41] |
guruvan | but descriptive nonetheless | [02:41] |
mircea_popescu | lets see. no googling nao. | [02:41] |
mircea_popescu | bristol cities ? | [02:41] |
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mircea_popescu | nothing ? aww. | [02:42] |
mircea_popescu | fine. butcher's hook ? | [02:43] |
mircea_popescu | mmm, artful dodger ? | [02:43] |
guruvan | ? got me completely | [02:43] |
mircea_popescu | lol k. bristol cities = titties | [02:44] |
mircea_popescu | has been for over two centuries. | [02:44] |
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mircea_popescu | butcher's hook is a look and artful dodger is a lodger. | [02:44] |
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* | Now talking on #bitcoin-otc-eu | [10:38] |
* | Topic for #bitcoin-otc-eu is: Eurozone #bitcoin-otc || http://bitcoin-otc.com || Include hash tag #eu in order notes to group -eu orders. || View all tagged -eu orders here: http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php?notes=%23eu || Exchange rates: !bc,convert CURRENCYCODE || GET BTC WITH ukash/paysafecard ... /msg neliskybot help || options-> http://polimedia.us/btc || bitcoin hosting -> http://bitvps.com/ | [10:38] |
* | Topic for #bitcoin-otc-eu set by kakobrekla!~T42@89-212-41-49.static.t-2.net at Fri Apr 20 21:40:27 2012 | [10:38] |
mircea_popescu | so i take it everyone has seen http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/mf_bitcoin/ ? | [10:39] |
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mircea_popescu | Then Wagner became the target of a countercampaign that publicized a successful lawsuit against him for mortgage fraud, costing him much of his reputation within the community. | [11:43] |
mircea_popescu | mmm, i didn't know that one. | [11:43] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: wut | [11:46] |
mircea_popescu | apparently. | [11:46] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: What are you quoting from? | [11:46] |
mircea_popescu | link above. | [11:47] |
vragnaroda | Oh, duh. | [11:48] |
vragnaroda | I didn't see that. | [11:48] |
vragnaroda | Oh that article. | [11:48] |
vragnaroda | lol | [11:48] |
ColdHardMetal | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40404.0 | [11:48] |
ColdHardMetal | some Wagner back story | [11:49] |
vragnaroda | ColdHardMetal: The Brokeback Mountain/Cub Scout camp mashup? | [11:49] |
mircea_popescu | apparently from before my time, and i guess i didn't have him on the research list. | [11:49] |
ColdHardMetal | no, this is his mortgae fraud scandal thingy | [11:49] |
mircea_popescu | btw, ColdHardMetal : you workingwith glbse in any capacity ? | [11:50] |
ColdHardMetal | yes. I'm the accountant/secretary of the investors group behind the exchange. | [11:50] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: Well, he always seemed foolishly inept with anything technical and always had “Manny” (his assistant) helping him and his Bitcoin show had this weird vibe going between them, anyway. | [11:50] |
ColdHardMetal | not a developer or coder. | [11:51] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: The mortgage shit, I heard about after all the brouhaha over Thailand. | [11:51] |
mircea_popescu | ColdHardMetal ok, so, maybe you want to pass along the following observation : https://glbse.com/asset/view/gigamining | [11:51] |
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mircea_popescu | apparently the htaccess has at least one problem. | [11:51] |
mircea_popescu | vragnaroda i wrote up all the weird vibe to being gay. | [11:52] |
mircea_popescu | i dunno, i watched about 15 minutes of a show thingee, twas kind fo unbearable for me. | [11:52] |
ColdHardMetal | I can access that page ok when I log in. | [11:52] |
mircea_popescu | but if you don't log in ? | [11:53] |
mircea_popescu | all i get is a huge Internal Server Error. | [11:53] |
ColdHardMetal | yeah, link no worky | [11:53] |
ColdHardMetal | I'll pass that along | [11:53] |
mircea_popescu | prolly a bad nocase somewhere. | [11:53] |
ColdHardMetal | I'll take your word for it lol | [11:54] |
mircea_popescu | :p | [11:54] |
vragnaroda | mircea_popescu: Yeah, and I still haven't seen anything more about it than that. (He does seem to like them young but a fag referring to ‘virgin boys’ to refer to young men of age seems likely.) My objections to him were (a) his technical ineptitude, (b) his pushing mybitcoin (before the owner made it hisbitcoin), and (c) he wasn't a really good speaker, anyway. | [11:55] |
vragnaroda | The mortgage thing is what really made my opinion of him turn negative. | [11:55] |
mircea_popescu | i didn't realise i had any use for an opinion of him tbh | [11:56] |
ColdHardMetal | he's old news really. | [11:56] |
vragnaroda | lol | [11:57] |
vragnaroda | http://catpa.ws/pics/buyavietnamesewife.jpg | [11:57] |
ColdHardMetal | comes with a warranty. sweet. | [11:58] |
mircea_popescu | ya, mine better not run off within a year or i'll be all over consumer affairs. | [12:02] |
mircea_popescu | Finney, who has blogged eloquently about being diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, sent his denial in an email: “Under my current circumstances, facing limited life expectancy, I would have little to lose by shedding anonymity. But it was not I.” | [12:03] |
mircea_popescu | you know, you have to applaud someone in that position that passes on the opportunity. | [12:04] |
mircea_popescu | if he had wanted eh could have claimed, and been the hero for at least till he died. | [12:04] |
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kakobrekla | mornin | [13:50] |
mircea_popescu | hi | [13:51] |
mircea_popescu | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDXYzUlv0S8 | [13:57] |
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rg | mornin | [15:47] |
jurov | afternoon | [15:57] |
jurov | rg, yesterday the bvps price tanked, where were you ? :D | [15:58] |
rg | i was at the US Dept of State all day | [15:58] |
rg | major hassle | [15:58] |
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rg | i walked out to our livingroom to feed off the misery that was in there last night | [16:13] |
rg | (a large sporting match was lost) | [16:14] |
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amiga4000 | !bc,convert eur | [16:28] |
gribble | 1 BTC = 5.10800 U.S. dollars = 3.85305876 Euros | [16:28] |
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mcorlett | I received some spam from "Mercia Akume". | [16:47] |
mcorlett | That's surprisingly similar to mircea_popescu. | [16:48] |
rg | h | [16:52] |
rg | m | [16:52] |
rg | thing 1 + thing 2 = PROOF | [16:52] |
rg | mircea spammed you | [16:52] |
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mcorlett | ;;seen markedathome | [17:26] |
gribble | markedathome was last seen in #bitcoin-otc-eu 1 day, 1 hour, 38 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: |
[17:26] |
mcorlett | .py | [17:31] |
markac | AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'encode' (file "/Users/markcornelius/src/phenny/modules/calc.py", line 95, in py) | [17:31] |
rg | owned | [17:32] |
mcorlett | lol | [17:32] |
mcorlett | FPD | [17:32] |
mcorlett | rg: This might need your attention: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54467.msg869362#msg869362 | [17:39] |
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rg | i already tried to talk to them | [17:59] |
rg | im waiting on them | [17:59] |
rg | and theyre waiting on me | [17:59] |
rg | it was a mixup between our records on the DC's records | [17:59] |
rg | it is quite possibly the worst snafu | [17:59] |
rg | ever | [17:59] |
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rg | oh man you know whayt i just realized | [18:27] |
rg | i can get my paypal back now | [18:27] |
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rg | ;;ticker | [20:09] |
gribble | Best bid: 5.06929, Best ask: 5.07484, Bid-ask spread: 0.00555, Last trade: 5.09883, 24 hour volume: 60563, 24 hour low: 4.99, 24 hour high: 5.18 | [20:09] |
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JWU_42 | ;;estimate | [21:56] |
gribble | Error: "estimate" is not a valid command. | [21:56] |
JWU_42 | ;;bc,estimate | [21:57] |
gribble | 1518901.53764116 | [21:57] |
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deegy_ | test | [23:22] |
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jurov | test failed | [23:30] |
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mircea_popescu | mcorlett that's similar to my foot. | [23:57] |
mcorlett | I am Mircea Popescu the only daughter of late Mr and Mrs Popescu. My father was a very wealthy cocoa merchant in Abidjan Ivory Coast (Cote d' Ivoire), my father was poisoned to death by his business associates on one of their outings on a business trip. | [23:58] |
mcorlett | There is drama everywhere! | [23:59] |
Category: Logs