Forum logs for 22 Mar 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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mod6 thanks for the pointer asciilifeform [00:09]
asciilifeform mod6: i also liked [00:09]
assbot ... ( ) [00:09]
asciilifeform (113 pgs) [00:09]
mod6 oh yeah, this first link is a trove of examples. nice. [00:10]
mod6 If the software must absolutely work wit [00:12]
mod6 hout error, where a software accident could [00:12]
mod6 kill or maim, Ada is the correct choice. [00:12]
mod6 sounds like the right idea [00:12]
asciilifeform sorta why i unearthed it. [00:13]
phf (load-canonical-entries) [00:13]
phf oops, my first ben_vulpes [00:13]
asciilifeform l0l! [00:13]
mod6 haha [00:15]
mod6 there have been, three people iirc that have pasted their passwords in here [00:16]
asciilifeform mod6: i got into ada ~1y ago. and it was ~very~ reluctantly. [00:16]
asciilifeform it is a very painful thing, to work in. to the point that as early as the first months folks made jokes that it was a ploy to bog down soviet research establishment, plan being that they would copy it and grind to a halt ! [00:17]
mod6 yeah, i'd seen the name before, but never heard anything about it until you were talkin about it. now it interests me because bitcoin needs to work better than a goddamn 777 [00:17]
asciilifeform (su, afaik, never took it up, but pascal was strong there) [00:17]
mod6 hahaha [00:18]
mod6 well, we'll see when i start getting into it. ive liked playing with scheme. [00:18]
asciilifeform i can almost guarantee you won't like ada then. [00:18]
mod6 i've bee working my way though all the examples in sicp [00:18]
mod6 eh, im sure if i get the hang of its conventions, etc., i'll get somehow masochistically into it. [00:19]
asciilifeform the canonical text is by one barnes [00:20]
asciilifeform i have the 2012 ed. [00:20]
mod6 oh i got that one ref manual from 95 [00:20]
asciilifeform (the ~actual~ canon is the standard and rationale books, but they are painful to learn from when n00b) [00:20]
mod6 yeah, flipping through the book -- it's pretty dense. [00:21]
mod6 Ada 95 Reference Manual. Language and Standard Libraries: International Standard << this one [00:22]
mod6 is tail recursion always defined such that there are O(n) steps in O(1) space? [00:25]
asciilifeform mod6: only if you have tail-call optimization [00:26]
asciilifeform as in, e.g., scheme [00:26]
mircea_popescu if its optiminm [00:26]
asciilifeform but not, for the most part, anywhere else [00:26]
mod6 right, they said something about C/C++/ that have a loop construct such as 'do/while' 'for' 'foreach' etc, as a defect in the lang. lol [00:27]
mircea_popescu did everyone see the funarg funerales argentinos thing ? [00:28]
asciilifeform aha! [00:28]
mircea_popescu it's still making me chuckle. [00:28]
asciilifeform they solved the funarg problem!11 [00:28]
mircea_popescu speaking of which, bitcoin needs not merely a "protocol standard". [00:29]
mircea_popescu it needs the fucking standard AND RATIONALE book. [00:29]
asciilifeform quite. [00:29]
mircea_popescu and we won't even fucking know the standard is anything but elaborate cumcake until the rationale part stands up. [00:30]
asciilifeform it was the rationale b000k that sold me on putting on the apocalyptic gas mask and doing ada at all. [00:30]
mircea_popescu and we don't even have the fucking conceptual girder to even comprehend what the rationale'd be on (in terms of, what are the primitives) [00:31]
mircea_popescu maybe it should be all based on colors for all we know. [00:31]
asciilifeform quaternions!11 [00:31]
mats on a moar flippant note, [00:33]
mats i found a 24x36in wooden frame and currently looking for pranks to play with it (apr1 is fast approaching) [00:33]
mats my best idea is to print a hi-res portrait of a coworker and put something like 'January 1985 to March 2016' at the bottom, then hide in the office somewhere [00:34]
mats but, i am open to proposals [00:34]
mircea_popescu make a fake wasp nest ? [00:35]
mats (idea with prior is, folks see portrait, then coworker, wonder why a dead man is walking around) [00:38]
mats a wasps nest could be good, however, i am not strong in the crafting arts [00:39]
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mats i also considered a portrait of myself, perhaps in a classic mao pose [00:43]
mats or deng xiaoping [00:44]
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mod6 oh boy, here we go... [01:08]
assbot dpaste: 2S6W9QR ... ( ) [01:08]
mod6 works, seems will take some getting used to though. [01:08]
asciilifeform congrats mod6! [01:12]
asciilifeform ada isn't, contrary to appearances, simply a 'bloated c' though. [01:16]
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asciilifeform it has some mighty aggressive sanity enforcement mechanisms, that really shine in larger proggy. [01:17]
mod6 coo [01:23]
mod6 i'll have to keep picking away at it. [01:24]
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deedbot- [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Census says… - [02:09]
ben_vulpes tmsr [02:24]
ben_vulpes motherfucking moving target [02:24]
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kakobrekla deedbot- [03:14]
assbot ... ( ) [03:14]
deedbot- accepted: 1 [03:14]
davout <<< sexy! [04:00]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 23:31:19; ben_vulpes: in more finely-tuned news: [04:00]
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BingoBoingo << They want a new test case. Dialectic continues. [04:47]
assbot Logged on 22-03-2016 00:16:30; asciilifeform: (the real question is why usg would ever admit to it - whole point of the charade was to build precedent-setting verdict. i suppose this outcome became in doubt, and whole thing was brought to what is intended as a quiet burial ?) [04:47]
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mats [05:24]
assbot Redirect Notice ... ( ) [05:24]
mats oops... [05:24]
assbot Brussels airport: casualties reported after explosions – live updates | World news | The Guardian ... ( ) [05:24]
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BingoBoingo I thought JCVD was supposed to keep these things from happening in Belgium because Action Movie! [05:44]
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jurov british culture ftw [07:11]
assbot Visiting Scarfolk, the Most Spectacular Dystopia of the 1970s | Collectors Weekly ... ( ) [07:11]
jurov "Children carry more than 72 known diseases. A bite or scratch can be fatal." [07:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17169 @ 0.00041887 = 7.1916 BTC [+] [07:13]
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BingoBoingo [08:22]
assbot ... ( ) [08:22]
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davout [09:23]
assbot Bitcoin : crise de croissance et querelle de chapelle ... ( ) [09:23]
davout major french newspaper writes about blocksize debate Oo [09:24]
deedbot- [Qntra] Gawker Media Total Damages Up To 140.1 Million dollars - [09:24]
* BingoBoingo enjoys the "actual damages" getting nice round numbers while punitive damages get a decimal point [09:27]
asciilifeform << just when usg cryptowarz were sagging... snackbar!111 [09:45]
assbot Logged on 22-03-2016 08:18:50; mats: [09:45]
asciilifeform related orlol: [09:46]
assbot ClubOrlov: The Color Counterrevolution Cometh ... ( ) [09:46]
asciilifeform where he drinks the loljuice, [09:47]
asciilifeform 'As I said, the Washington régime is just as hated within the US as it is around the world, if not more. Trump's slogan of “Make America great again!” may sound overly ambitious, but what if his promise is to make America great again at exactly one thing—throwing members of the Washington régime on the ground and stomping on their heads until they pop? I am pretty sure that he can get this done.' [09:47]
jurov orlov believes in trump? [09:49]
asciilifeform jurov: apparently [09:52]
asciilifeform 'You see, in the US hatred of the Washington régime runs very deep, with millions of people sick and tired of being swindled by various hated bureaucracies—in government, law, medicine, education, the military, banking... They hate those who took away their jobs and gave them to foreigners and immigrants. They hate those who stole their retirement savings and ruined their children's futures. They hate the smug university type [10:05]
asciilifeform making them feel inadequate simply for being who they are—salt of the earth Americans, racist, bigoted, small-minded, parochial, willfully ignorant, armed to the teeth and proud of it. There is very little that the régime can ask of these people, because the response to every possible ask is “no, because we hate you.”' [10:05]
asciilifeform in other lulz, [10:20]
asciilifeform from today's server logz, [10:20]
asciilifeform http://www.twitter/Tweet_a_bad_word_about_an_american_corporation_and_your_tweets_all_get_hidden_from_other_members [10:20]
asciilifeform HTTP/1.1 [10:20]
asciilifeform [10:20]
assbot We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found. ... ( ) [10:20]
jurov these are http requests to your server? [10:21]
davout [10:43]
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asciilifeform jurov: aha [12:06]
asciilifeform referheaderspam. [12:06]
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mircea_popescu << here you go phf [12:37]
assbot Republican History of Jewry on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [12:37]
deedbot- [Trilema] Republican History of Jewry - [12:53]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes> motherfucking moving target << check out the premonitory quality of the vulpes. [12:56]
mircea_popescu "querelle de chapelle" eh. [12:57]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform note that technically, the machine can be powered on anything. soviets dekulakized the very dekulakizers at least twice ; mao did it at least once, [13:00]
mircea_popescu there's nothing special about the various clones of bill de blasio that prevents them from being made into soap. [13:01]
asciilifeform [13:01]
assbot Republican History of Jewry on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [13:01]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha, best soap [13:01]
mircea_popescu answer't. [13:03]
asciilifeform [13:04]
assbot Republican History of Jewry on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [13:04]
mircea_popescu in other news, asciilifeform you ever saw ? [13:08]
assbot Crumb (1994) - IMDb ... ( ) [13:08]
mircea_popescu great documentary. (i'm also a crumb fan, so) [13:08]
asciilifeform i have not, but it sounds like precisely my sort of thing. [13:08]
* asciilifeform puts on list [13:08]
mircea_popescu it's one of the best made documentaries i ever saw. [13:09]
mircea_popescu zwigoff has the decency to stfu and stay away. [13:09]
asciilifeform mouth-watering [13:09]
asciilifeform srsly [13:09]
asciilifeform [13:12]
assbot Republican History of Jewry on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [13:12]
asciilifeform '... the horde of imbeciles trying to destroy the tower of actual people is very properly the French attack' << inescapably, >> << mental image [13:22]
assbot Logged on 26-08-2014 01:48:43; asciilifeform: even this: has a page. [13:22]
asciilifeform mega-recommended cartoon, it shows what my mental picture of mircea_popescu looks like [13:23]
asciilifeform ( giant, flattens thousands of orcs by wielding an old piece of junk, for as long as he can ) [13:25]
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asciilifeform ;;later tell mod6 << another golden oldie [13:41]
gribble The operation succeeded. [13:41]
assbot TableOfContents ... ( ) [13:41]
kakobrekla for mp and others: [13:50]
assbot BitBet receivership formal application and letter of intent | ... ( ) [13:50]
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asciilifeform << lulzy [14:35]
assbot BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 1 week 6 days ago ... ( ) [14:36]
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BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [15:25]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 416.24, vol: 3765.96832155 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 413.851, vol: 5469.25419 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 416.84, vol: 10558.83503659 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.745285, vol: 33763.96200000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 415.47, vol: 2197.14009358 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 421.410112, vol: 38.75157245 | Volume-weighted last average: 418.213873349 [15:25]
ben_vulpes davout: [15:32]
assbot ... ( ) [15:32]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i think i saw this engine in person [15:37]
ben_vulpes neato! [15:41]
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BingoBoingo Toronto Mayor Rob Ford has passed away [16:17]
phf ben_vulpes: do you know any css libraries that will give me bootstrap style layout techniques, without rest of bootstrap (columns, show/hide conditional based on medium) [16:19]
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trinque phf: ever use flexbox? something resembling a layout system ended up in the standard itself [16:21]
trinque my approach tends to be to set different flexbox rules depending on viewport size [16:22]
phf that looks neat, but is there a compiler that adds retro compatibility? [16:22]
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trinque phf: << cannot vouch for, but appears to be a polyfill for it [16:24]
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assbot GitHub - 10up/flexibility: Use flexbox while supporting older Internet Explorers ... ( ) [16:24]
phf that's a bit too many dirty words for my taste, but i'll give it a try [16:26]
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deedbot- [Qntra] Brussels Attacked – Western Dream Likely Over - [16:30]
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asciilifeform !up mrottenkolber [16:39]
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asciilifeform mrottenkolber: v-related question? [16:40]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: ask away, you are speaking with author of original v [16:42]
asciilifeform in unrelated nyooz, [16:45]
asciilifeform [16:45]
asciilifeform ^^ l337 w4r3z!111 ^^ [16:45]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: So I dowloaded v99.tar.gz because I thought it was a cool hack, and expected the following to work: (inside the v99 directory): ./ -v --wot wot --seals sigs patches f [16:52]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: But I get WARNING: asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig is an INVALID seal for asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation.vpatch ! [16:52]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: mod6 packaged a since-expired key for me in that thing [16:56]
asciilifeform and afaik never updated. [16:56]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: yep I think thats it. [16:56]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: get current one from or [16:56]
assbot Public Key Server -- Get "0xb98228a001abffc7 " ... ( ) [16:56]
assbot ... ( ) [16:56]
mrottenkolber Cool works. [16:59]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: enjoy [17:00]
mrottenkolber Naive question: what would be the implications of using sha1 instead of sha512 in vdiff? (thinking about porting V to git hooks/aliases) [17:01]
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asciilifeform mrottenkolber: sha1 is obsolete [17:02]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: see also [17:03]
assbot The Shappening ... ( ) [17:03]
asciilifeform forget about using it. for anything. [17:03]
asciilifeform and porting v onto git is considerably more of a waste of time than the reins on early motorcars [17:03]
asciilifeform the WHOLE POINT of v is to ditch git and all things like it. [17:03]
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asciilifeform whatever things in git world you miss in v, they were excluded DELIBERATELY [17:06]
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asciilifeform !up mrottenkolber [17:09]
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asciilifeform no explicit use, for instance, is made of the network. [17:10]
asciilifeform it is entirely up to you how to get new patches into and out of the box [17:10]
asciilifeform can use sneakernet and floppies if you like. [17:10]
mrottenkolber or git? ;-) [17:11]
asciilifeform or carrier pigeon. [17:11]
asciilifeform and yes, you are free to replace the hash with sha1 or md5 or crc32 or whatever, just like you are free to buy a toyota and drive it off a cliff [17:12]
asciilifeform neither i nor toyota have any business saying what you do. [17:12]
mrottenkolber My point is the toposort isn't really part of the problem v solves. The function is to cryptographically verfiy a sequence of patches (based on a wot), who cares where that sequence comes from, as long as each patch (commit) has a signature. [17:13]
asciilifeform see in particular 0x00 [17:13]
assbot The V Manual Genesis on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [17:13]
asciilifeform the toposort ~is~ part of it. [17:13]
asciilifeform without it, you just have a bag of patches, to be sorted manually [17:14]
asciilifeform which you did not need a program for, could have done it without me just as well [17:14]
asciilifeform likewise, the file hashes ~are~ a part of v, it is how you know that the prescribed flow of patches is being successfully followed. [17:14]
asciilifeform again, without this, you have 'faith-based' patching. [17:15]
asciilifeform the nailing down of the BITWISE identities of the intermediates, ~is~ part of the point of v. [17:15]
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asciilifeform the correct context in which v is to be understood is that it is: a weapon of war. [17:16]
asciilifeform there is an enemy. [17:16]
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trinque !up Alopex [17:17]
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trinque !up B0g4r7__ [17:17]
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asciilifeform the primary weapon of the enemy is the morass of 'nobody read this, nobody understood this' crapolade that 'everything depends on' [17:17]
asciilifeform e.g., git. [17:17]
asciilifeform e.g., dns. [17:17]
phf mrottenkolber: if that's your only goal, you don't need v for that. git already does it for you by having a linearly hashed commit chain. right now you have a reasonable way of verifying the git chain from the top hash, but you can't make any crypto claims about it, since the hashes are sha1 [17:17]
asciilifeform the modus operandi of the enemy is to insert 'bugs', e.g., 'heartbleed', and to prevent attribution. [17:18]
asciilifeform 'everything' in 'open source' was written by 'everybody and nobody'. [17:18]
asciilifeform v is so as to put an end to this idiocy. [17:18]
mrottenkolber phf: That's why I thought about adding signatures of “git vdiff” to commit messages and an alias/command to verify a branch. [17:18]
asciilifeform phf: not only are git hashes sha1, but git itself is a gigantic bag of ?????. [17:20]
asciilifeform that i for one have not read nor verified, nor intend to [17:20]
asciilifeform wake me up when it's 100 lines TOTAL [17:20]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: what about diff and gnupg? [17:20]
mrottenkolber actually nvm [17:20]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: these are in the queue for replacement. [17:20]
asciilifeform by things that WE wrote and UNDERSTAND. [17:21]
asciilifeform but yes, they are sore spots, and due for the chopping block. [17:21]
mrottenkolber I have to say I like your spirit very much. [17:21]
asciilifeform it is total war. [17:22]
mrottenkolber its always been [17:22]
mrottenkolber I guess [17:22]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: consider getting in the wot, i will rate you. [17:22]
asciilifeform you will be able to voice. [17:22]
phf asciilifeform: well, you can verify data without verifying git. i've done it, and the thing definitely produces a semblance of "blockchain", i.e. later commits hashes previous commits' hashes, so you can if you ignore the sha1 issue, take a git branch and confirm its uniqueness from the final hash [17:23]
asciilifeform [17:23]
assbot first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( ) [17:23]
mrottenkolber will probably not be chatting that much, but I am very keen of actually starting to build some wotness. My gpg is useless right now its so bare. [17:23]
asciilifeform phf: thing is that i have no intention of ignoring the sha1 issue. sha1 is ~broken~. [17:23]
mrottenkolber yeah no, you would have to compute sha512 [17:24]
mrottenkolber which is possible, just not as convenient [17:24]
asciilifeform 'convenient' does not enter into this. [17:26]
asciilifeform using a curtain instead of front door to your house is also likewise 'convenient' [17:27]
mrottenkolber !register 76EB8DE4EA28A5C4746C71AA7C7F34CDCF4CDA75 [17:28]
assbot Searching for key with fingerprint: 76EB8DE4EA28A5C4746C71AA7C7F34CDCF4CDA75. This may take a few moments. [17:28]
assbot Key CF4CDA75 / "Max Rottenkolber " successfully imported. [17:28]
assbot Registration successful. [17:28]
mrottenkolber booya [17:28]
phf mrottenkolber: a better place to wire v would be mercurial's mq facility. mercurial has a way of managing plaintext patchsets, to do things like patch refresh, i.e update the contents of patch from the current tree state, mercurial managed patch press, i.e. instead of doing "manual" v press hg will keep track of state for you, etc. this will not be a way to share patches, as much as a way to facilitate vpatch authoring. [17:29]
asciilifeform !rate mrottenkolber 1 new blood [17:29]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [17:29]
asciilifeform !assbot:asciilifeform.rate.mrottenkolber.1:68c6afed7ec0113bb290a9e2f0b609f2ea8216f0d0820a80a690cf9960e20096 [17:30]
asciilifeform !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.mrottenkolber.1:68c6afed7ec0113bb290a9e2f0b609f2ea8216f0d0820a80a690cf9960e20096 [17:30]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for mrottenkolber with note: new blood [17:30]
mrottenkolber I am only mentioning the sha1 option because I don't understand crypto well enough to be able to rationalize the effort of producing a file, with the same sha1sum, with an exploit while the patch still applies. [17:30]
mrottenkolber Obviously, I wouldn't bet on it. [17:31]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: you should be able to voice yourself now. [17:32]
mrottenkolber But e.g. in my head, if you spend 70k to compute a sha1 collision, it won't look like C code probably ;-) [17:32]
mrottenkolber (complete speculation) [17:32]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: this is not the important bit. a collision will successfully interfere with the function of automated vtrons, e.g., one where patches are thrown into a hopper unattended [17:33]
asciilifeform even if the result does not resemble code [17:33]
mrottenkolber hopper? [17:33]
asciilifeform well suppose you have a box which accepts patches via email, as jurov has. [17:34]
* assbot gives voice to mrottenkolber [17:35]
asciilifeform congrats mrottenkolber [17:37]
mrottenkolber Cool bot! [17:37]
mrottenkolber But... am I even connected using ssl? no idea [17:37]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: how did you come upon b-a ? [17:37]
mircea_popescu will be signign the davout application later today myself. [17:37]
mrottenkolber I read about v and liked the hack, ran into the expired signature and well... [17:38]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: read where [17:38]
mrottenkolber HN probably [17:38]
mircea_popescu mrottenkolber> Naive question: what would be the implications of using sha1 instead of sha512 in vdiff? << roughly speaking you'd be going back in time, we're by and large in the process of moving to sha-3 [17:38]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform something tells me commenter has never seen hyenas. wtf, some of the most social animals, in its good days washington dc polite society more or less approximates pack of hyenas. [17:40]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha! [17:40]
asciilifeform they do! i have seen. [17:40]
mrottenkolber I have absolutely no interest in bitcoin to be honest, don't see the point. [17:40]
asciilifeform 'After the burial-parties leave. And the baffled kites have fled;. The wise hyænas come out at eve. To take account of our dead. ' [17:40]
asciilifeform (kipling) [17:40]
mircea_popescu mrottenkolber nothing i said was related to bitcoin, was it ? [17:40]
mrottenkolber mircea_popescu: No, sorry, still mumbling aout the why I am in b-a [17:41]
mircea_popescu ah ah. [17:41]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: you are in good company, i also do not use bitcoin with any appreciable frequency... [17:41]
asciilifeform v and bitcoin are related by happenstance, as git and linux kernel were. [17:41]
mircea_popescu well if you're curious, free money is the basis for the existence of the republic which is the reason stuff like v ended up existing. but i suppose from outside this string of actual events may as well be coincidental. [17:42]
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mrottenkolber I totally get why bitcoin development motivates v, obviously there is motivation for adversaries here. [17:44]
mrottenkolber what republic though? [17:44]
mrottenkolber I am indeed using ssl to connect to freenode, this assbot thing might actually work. :D [17:46]
mircea_popescu !s tmsr [17:47]
assbot 199 results for 'tmsr' : [17:47]
* assbot removes voice from Alopex [17:47]
* assbot removes voice from B0g4r7__ [17:47]
phf we're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. we take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. [17:47]
mircea_popescu turns out, re prev tagging discussion, that ... we're already doing a rudimentary, grassroots sort of that. [17:48]
trinque there's some lovely filth over here! [17:48]
mrottenkolber oh anarcho-syndicalism I dig that [17:48]
mircea_popescu but my main concern with that scheme, upon meditation, is that... ok, brace yourselves : [17:48]
mircea_popescu mrottenkolber don't kid yourself, they're living in a dictator sheep. [17:48]
phf trinque: now you're confusing it with eulora [17:48]
trinque lol [17:48]
mircea_popescu so, IF we start tagging things in chan, this is indistinguishable from good old spam. (textual content of no textual intent). [17:49]
mircea_popescu i suppose this could be mediated by doing the tagging over pm [17:49]
mircea_popescu but the problem is actually hairer than hoped. [17:49]
trinque hm. it does invite that abominable hashtag social media tic. [17:51]
davout please no #b-ashtags [17:52]
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phf #meta #tmsr~ [17:52]
davout if nobody remembers how to find a particular thread, maybe that thread isn't really worth remembering after all [17:53]
mircea_popescu davout the original complaint was re completeness. [17:53]
mircea_popescu if someone, as oft is the case for say mod6, is trying to make the whole pile of what was said abvout X, they encounter a very present difficulty. [17:54]
davout re the mp describes a HF that danielpbarron ended up blawging about? [17:54]
mircea_popescu sorry ? [17:54]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: Ah there go found it: (my browser history scares me) [17:55]
assbot Vectored Signatures | Hacker News ... ( ) [17:55]
mircea_popescu phf either b,tmsr~ or else tmsr! there is no tmsr~! [17:55]
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davout ok, i meant that this issue came up when you were talking about "what should go into a tmsr fork" that danielpbarron ended up summarizing on his blog? [17:56]
mircea_popescu ah yeah i think that was when it came up [17:56]
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davout anyway, my point is that if nobody remembers, that nobody bothered to blog it, the fact that completeness is a problem might indicate a violation of fits-in-head [17:57]
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mircea_popescu so it might, yeah... [17:57]
ben_vulpes fitting in head requires lopping all extraneous log comments off. [17:57]
mircea_popescu would actually the idea of pm tagging for each DAY solve anything / be worth anything ? [17:58]
mircea_popescu or is it the sort of midway solution that's the average of man and woman and horse and chimney ? [17:58]
ben_vulpes i recently took a 45 minute sojourn into the history of "protocol vs. promise" [17:58]
ben_vulpes 'twas not actually that hard, but it did take knowing the variety speak thoroughly. [17:58]
davout mircea_popescu: maybe use for that purpose? how would pm tagging work? [17:59]
mircea_popescu the sad fact of the matter is that summarization squarely relies on ignorance. there's no obvious way around that rock. [17:59]
mircea_popescu davout you pm deedbot with a list of strings which it retains for the day, prints a cloud somewhere, one can click items in cloud to get list of days so tagged [17:59]
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mircea_popescu but the complexity of this notion is rapidly expanding. [17:59]
ben_vulpes another good topic is "specificity of diddling". [17:59]
ben_vulpes i have been failing to shit words on the topic out because i think of familiarity with it. it all seems so obvious! [18:00]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes happens to me all the time! then alf runs off and invents it and i'm like fuuuu wasn't this on trilema! [18:01]
ben_vulpes << summarization also relies on knowing precisely what /can/ be snipped. [18:01]
assbot Logged on 22-11-2015 06:30:10; mircea_popescu: abstraction is loss. you throw out all sorts of stuff and hope&pray that it wasn't actually needed. [18:01]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what can be snipped FOR WHOM. [18:01]
ben_vulpes catch-22 [18:01]
mircea_popescu ~only way to make a shorter text reliably is to rely on specified notation known in advance. [18:02]
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mircea_popescu otherwise, "compression" still an open problem. [18:02]
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mircea_popescu !rate mrottenkolber 1 New blood [18:03]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [18:03]
mircea_popescu !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.mrottenkolber.1:7ae7bb4fe0a9bf41b838dc065d19fceca42142f999e7016fa2cd143e92a2412f [18:04]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for mrottenkolber with note: New blood [18:04]
mircea_popescu phf i heard this privately too, during rebasing debate, "pretty much the only way to manage this insanity is to put it on mercurial" [18:05]
mircea_popescu mrottenkolber> Obviously, I wouldn't bet on it. << trivial, add comment. [18:05]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: still regretting not doing that ? [18:05]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform doing what ? [18:05]
asciilifeform (someone iirc actually said 'use darcs') [18:06]
asciilifeform going with heathen versionatrons [18:06]
mircea_popescu non, rien de rien, je ne regrette rien! ni le bon, ni le mal... [18:06]
asciilifeform ^ [18:06]
mircea_popescu i wish she was in fucking b-a. [18:07]
asciilifeform can we also haz marilyn m ? [18:07]
mircea_popescu what do you need buttgirl in irc for ? buy her lunch. [18:08]
asciilifeform point. [18:08]
asciilifeform << the only solution is with actual brainz, folks writin' articles. [18:08]
assbot Logged on 22-03-2016 20:49:10; mircea_popescu: if someone, as oft is the case for say mod6, is trying to make the whole pile of what was said abvout X, they encounter a very present difficulty. [18:08]
asciilifeform sorta what pete_dushenski was trying to do at one time [18:09]
asciilifeform iirc [18:09]
mircea_popescu sorry, can't have brainz. zombies ate them ~all. [18:09]
phf mercurial has a handy patch management mechanism, that unfortunatly doesn't understand nor produces vpatches. i basically verify vpatches manually, and then put them into hg's patch folder. then i do a topo sort, which gives me a mercurial compatible "series" file. i let mercurial press it using that series file. whole process is more complicated then should be with a proper mercurial support, but i hnfi how people rebase, refresh, [18:09]
phf diff, etc. without it [18:09]
phf mechanism has nothing to do with "mercurial" as such, and is more akin to old school patch management system, "quilt" [18:10]
phf and for the curious [18:11]
assbot MqExtension - Mercurial ... ( ) [18:11]
assbot Quilt - Summary [Savannah] ... ( ) [18:11]
mircea_popescu not like it couldn't in principle be gutted/rewritten in part. [18:11]
ben_vulpes i press to confirm patch validity and then commit the changes to my local version controlatron. [18:11]
ben_vulpes that way i can rebase, etc whenever i care to. [18:11]
mircea_popescu chocolatron ? [18:11]
mircea_popescu o nm. [18:12]
asciilifeform am i the only one without fancy mechanisms here ? [18:12]
ben_vulpes what about this is fancy? [18:12]
mircea_popescu nah, i generally don't do any of that either. [18:12]
mircea_popescu then again, the people who aren't me that actually care/understand computers tend to . [18:12]
asciilifeform i use v + bare teeth [18:12]
ben_vulpes yes but you like pain [18:12]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i like right pain [18:12]
asciilifeform not idiot rote [18:13]
asciilifeform but i was reluctant to write v, if you recall, because i considered the problem it solves to be a trivial / muscle thing [18:13]
ben_vulpes aha [18:13]
asciilifeform but iirc mircea_popescu & hanbot et al disagreed, so v had to be. [18:13]
mircea_popescu it's splendid, really. the fact that i can run it on a random box and trust the result pales anything else. [18:14]
ben_vulpes perhaps the *other* way to go about this is simply to make patches against the base 0.5.3, and then anyone wanting to apply them may do so in whatever order they choose, resolving conflicts as they feel. [18:14]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: this'd result in gargantuan lengths of duplicated crapola [18:14]
asciilifeform ick [18:14]
mircea_popescu well alternatively one could also shit on exposed cable and let the bits sort themselves into software as they will [18:14]
ben_vulpes why? [18:14]
mircea_popescu why the hell not. how much worse than present situation could it be. [18:14]
ben_vulpes onm. [18:14]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i'm not reading a MB of crud i've seen before. [18:14]
asciilifeform i'd rather shit in the cable. [18:14]
ben_vulpes yes yes [18:14]
asciilifeform as per mircea_popescu's formula. [18:14]
ben_vulpes fine. [18:15]
asciilifeform understand, a 10kB patch is ~LONG~ [18:15]
mircea_popescu no, v is great even if painful - because it's painful to the right people, which are the people who aren't me. [18:15]
ben_vulpes and only if used as a hammer and not microscope. [18:16]
mircea_popescu that's the other thjing. [18:16]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is also very painful to the enemy at the business end of the barrel, which is what matters [18:16]
mircea_popescu that's what i said! [18:16]
asciilifeform but yes, like kalash, it is not built for comfort of the wielder so much as for maximum effect. [18:17]
asciilifeform kalash is not even my model for imitation, but closer to... japanese lance mine. [18:17]
asciilifeform << aaaactually mircea_popescu invented specificity-of-diddling-theorem, i just heavisided it [18:30]
assbot Logged on 22-03-2016 20:56:07; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes happens to me all the time! then alf runs off and invents it and i'm like fuuuu wasn't this on trilema! [18:30]
asciilifeform well, he ampered it, at least, and i did some of the maxwellizing and pretty much all of the heavisiding. [18:31]
mircea_popescu eh, the chinese invented it 3k years ago [18:36]
mircea_popescu invention is like true love. you gotta be a certain age to believe it with all your heart. [18:36]
mircea_popescu hopefully you never get old enough to credit it altogether. [18:37]
mircea_popescu to stop crediting it altogether, i mean. [18:37]
asciilifeform going for modest thing here, not trooo luvvv, but good fuq. [18:38]
asciilifeform this - can be had. [18:39]
* davout guesses that's one field where stuff done by hand is actually easier [18:45]
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* assbot gives voice to benrav [19:11]
asciilifeform << possibly, i have not yet picked it up [19:13]
assbot Logged on 22-03-2016 19:44:42; nubbins`: asciilifeform did you receive yr textiles yet? [19:13]
asciilifeform nubbins`: the post in my town keeps 'banker hours' [19:13]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: boxes do not get delivered to your domicile? [19:33]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: valuable/unique items from ~humans~, i like to sit at the post [19:33]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: parcels from commercial mega-vendors, can go to the house, if they get misplaced insurance pays. [19:35]
ben_vulpes this is a special hell of paranoia, asciilifeform. [19:36]
mircea_popescu ;;bc,stats [19:37]
gribble Current Blocks: 403836 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1379 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 6 hours, 7 minutes, and 14 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [19:37]
mircea_popescu !up benrav [19:38]
-assbot- You voiced benrav for another 30 minutes. [19:38]
* assbot gives voice to benrav [19:38]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: we have diagnosable tards delivering parcels, they often end up miles away, for no discernible reason [19:38]
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* assbot gives voice to gernika [20:03]
gernika apropos of nothing, I just attempted to download a .pdf formatted datasheet and received a PDF FORMATTED error message. [20:05]
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mircea_popescu not bad lol. [20:14]
* davout recently learned that PDF could contain javascript [20:15]
mircea_popescu << i just read that and lolled. seriously, piece pretending nsa-gavin is somehow involved in or related to bitcoin ? leading with a quote from karpeles ? is this yves eudes hardcore trolling the collection of wanna-be derps that read le monde or what ? [20:16]
assbot Logged on 22-03-2016 12:19:03; davout: major french newspaper writes about blocksize debate Oo [20:16]
davout where do you see a karpeles quote? [20:17]
davout "Victime de son succès" ? [20:17]
mircea_popescu well ? [20:17]
davout well what? [20:18]
mircea_popescu yes, that. [20:19]
mircea_popescu "bitcoin in terms of gavin and maku kalaposu", a pretty good satirical premise, i grant. [20:19]
davout anyway, the article is obviously a massive piece of shit, maybe you'll be interdasted in [20:19]
assbot Le fondateur du bitcoin enfin démasqué en Australie ? ... ( ) [20:19]
mrottenkolber I preset... (ducks): [20:19]
assbot · GitHub ... ( ) [20:19]
mircea_popescu you pressed ? [20:19]
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mircea_popescu !up locksley [20:20]
-assbot- You voiced locksley for 30 minutes. [20:20]
* assbot gives voice to locksley [20:20]
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mircea_popescu mrottenkolber is you ? [20:21]
assbot Max Rottenkolber's personal website ... ( ) [20:21]
mrottenkolber it is [20:27]
mrottenkolber I found by the way [20:27]
assbot Git - Signing Your Work ... ( ) [20:27]
mrottenkolber Not sure what `git commit -S' signs exactly, but... [20:27]
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mrottenkolber assuming it signs the whole commit object, given `merge --verify-signatures' is probably reasonably secure. [20:32]
mrottenkolber Which I guess would be the parallel to press [20:32]
ben_vulpes mrottenkolber: forgive my thickness but /why/ are you doing this? [20:34]
mrottenkolber research [20:37]
trinque +mrottenkolber │ assuming ... is probably reasonably secure. << pls do not give poor asciilifeform an early death by ulcer [20:39]
asciilifeform << mega-pr0gr355555 [20:47]
assbot A 3D Printed Sundial Displays Time Like a Digital Clock | Colossal ... ( ) [20:48]
mircea_popescu lol they finally found the true vocation of 3d printed items, glorified doorstops ? [20:50]
phf mrottenkolber: unfortunately there seems to be no way to enforce security in git, no way to enable some always_gnupg flag, nor is there a mechanism to add default arguments to some builtin commands. [21:06]
phf nor is there an easy way to answer "what was signed" question, short of reading source. you just have to assume that right bits go in, and that nobody's going to change what bits go in in future releases, etc. [21:09]
ben_vulpes pretty good example of the "promise" end of the spectrum. [21:21]
phf there's commit.gpgsign, but i don't see anything for --verify-signatures [21:23]
phf suggested solutions include writing update hooks, that in turn involve plenty of goo' ol' foo=$(bar|sed|awk) [21:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4131 @ 0.00042201 = 1.7433 BTC [+] {2} [21:26]
gernika I have a friend who may have found a valid use for 3d printers: he's built 4 of them in his garage and uses them to prototype electronic toy parts. [21:28]
gernika aparently also uses random items such as various tupperware containers. [21:28]
ben_vulpes why would you put food in that plastic [21:31]
gernika so you can forget about it while it rots in the refrigerator? [21:32]
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mircea_popescu it's actually a pretty serious health risk. the plasticisers / other treatments that make the 3d feedstock behave sufficiently like ink are all items of concern in food chain. [21:36]
ben_vulpes yech [21:39]
ben_vulpes in other news, i finally put a tv in the conference room and it is now apparently the dedicated "5 hours of rocket explosions on a loop" device [21:39]
mircea_popescu incidentally : the ancient myths of "person-in-construction" have a practical backing in the roman practice of using fat and sometimes blood as a plasticizer in concrete. [21:39]
mircea_popescu it's a hugely interesting topic, this. [21:40]
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mircea_popescu strength of concrete is inverse to the added water, up to a point, but that makes it hard to work. [21:40]
mircea_popescu and in other news, [21:57]
assbot ... ( ) [21:58]
mrottenkolber why does assbot echo links? seems redundant [22:04]
mircea_popescu so you don't leak your ip by visiting links ; so you archive their contents if you want to. [22:04]
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mod6 thanks for the link alf [22:16]
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phf so here's a definitive answer the question "gpg what you sign" [22:41]
assbot ... ( ) [22:41]
phf basically some equivalent of "tree 182073587b70313f13678c6e1389cb6c94dd3c69
author foo 1458691972 -0400
committer foo 1458691972 -0400
commit message ... "
mircea_popescu is this a git extension ? [22:44]
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phf nah, above paste is a hack that repeats the steps that git goes through in order to verify a signature on a commit (as seen here, and purpose is to answer the question "wtf does git sign" [22:47]
assbot git/commit.c at f02fbc4f9433937ee0463d0342d6d7d97e1f6f1e · git/git · GitHub ... ( ) [22:47]
mircea_popescu a ok [22:49]
mrottenkolber So I learned today that git does't use sha1 as I thought, but its own git-hash-object [22:49]
mrottenkolber Which is probably less cryptographically “secure” as sha1 (wild guess) [22:50]
mrottenkolber wait nvm [22:51]
mrottenkolber oh its late, it uses sha1 obviously but not on plain files >.> [22:52]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: there are threads in the logs re: poor hygiene of git. [22:53]
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asciilifeform << somebody wake up diametric and his 11 (?) handmade 3d printerz [22:55]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 00:23:16; gernika: I have a friend who may have found a valid use for 3d printers: he's built 4 of them in his garage and uses them to prototype electronic toy parts. [22:55]
asciilifeform << iirc most folks print with abs. [22:56]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 00:31:03; mircea_popescu: it's actually a pretty serious health risk. the plasticisers / other treatments that make the 3d feedstock behave sufficiently like ink are all items of concern in food chain. [22:56]
asciilifeform same thing of which your keyboard (if it is any good) is made. [22:56]
mircea_popescu keyboard is already set ; and chock-full of phtalates when new. [22:57]
mod6 boy oh boy. looks like all you can hope for with Ada and issuing system commands is to redirect the output to a file, and the read the file. [22:57]
mod6 s/the/then/ [22:57]
asciilifeform abs is not thermosetting [22:57]
mircea_popescu orly ? [22:57]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: what do you mean by hygiene? [22:57]
asciilifeform mod6: a proper vtron won't call out to shell [22:57]
mod6 gpg libs give me ulcers [22:58]
asciilifeform mod6: there are no libs [22:59]
asciilifeform mod6: correct vtron will exponentiate inside itself. [22:59]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: abs melts and cools, and melts again, etc. this is why 3d printer is even a thing [22:59]
mod6 well, i guess i can appreciate that. i was simply going to write a V in Ada as a way to learn Ada. [23:01]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no phthalate in abs [23:03]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: hygiene is a broad concept, but it starts with excluding known filth [23:04]
asciilifeform and proceeds to throwing out the vaguely filthy and the contaminated-by-contact [23:04]
asciilifeform << illustration of what bad hygiene looks like [23:05]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 00:04:06; phf: nor is there an easy way to answer "what was signed" question, short of reading source. you just have to assume that right bits go in, and that nobody's going to change what bits go in in future releases, etc. [23:05]
asciilifeform more broadly, i have nfi what goes inside a '.git' directory, and the effort required to understand it is substantial [23:06]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform iirc abs is the more expensive sort of ink. [23:07]
asciilifeform (~understand~ meaning FULLY, as in - ~all~ edge cases) [23:07]
mrottenkolber I can recommend “Git from the bottom up”, git at its core is actually quite... minimalistic. [23:07]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the other popular feedstock is pla, which is made of corn exhaust [23:07]
asciilifeform mrottenkolber: how long is the git source and ALL dependencies. [23:07]
asciilifeform that is what i am speaking of, when i say 'understand' [23:08]
mrottenkolber and it was kind of obvious that it signs the commit object, I mean what else? [23:08]
mircea_popescu i dunno why i thought it's mostly pvc. seems not. [23:08]
asciilifeform so that'd be a hash of a hash ? [23:08]
trinque mrottenkolber: behind the words one knows there can be an expanse of rusty gears and dirty secrets [23:08]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: wtf, nobody prints pvc, good way to gasenwagen [23:08]
asciilifeform (pvc iirc releases hcl, in a room where it has been burned, electronics slowly rot away and must be written off) [23:09]
mircea_popescu well, all burned plastics release something. [23:09]
mircea_popescu abs iirc releases hcn. [23:09]
mrottenkolber asciilifeform: I hash of some metadata and a hash of tons of hashes of tns of hashes lol [23:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it does. [23:10]
trinque mrottenkolber: consider that as specified the total source code involved in a vtron can *decrease* drastically from here. [23:10]
mircea_popescu anyway. apparently all sorts of thing OTHER than polycarbonate are #7 now. [23:11]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: but in either case 3d printer, unless catastrophically miscalibrated, does not ignite [23:11]
mircea_popescu well done idjits for making a mess of things. [23:11]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is, more or less, a 'glue gun on wheels' [23:11]
mircea_popescu aha [23:12]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they installed one at $rupturefarm a few days ago, i still can't quite figure out why, thing is huge [23:12]
mrottenkolber good night guys [23:16]
mrottenkolber see you around [23:16]
phf mrottenkolber: things are always obvious until someone does the work discovery and then it's "who could've predicted" [23:16]
* mrottenkolber has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) [23:22]
* assbot gives voice to diametric [23:24]
mircea_popescu deedbot- [23:25]
assbot ... ( ) [23:25]
deedbot- accepted: 1 [23:25]
mircea_popescu davout ^ you're on. [23:25]
diametric asciilifeform: most people use pla. it's a lot easier to deal with. abs requires higher temps and a heated bed. but recently there are a lot of people printing with petg, and various composites. i just saw some "ironfill", a blend of iron powder and pla. [23:26]
mircea_popescu aha! [23:27]
mircea_popescu diametric so what's the toxicity profile like, for the activity broadly speaking ? [23:27]
diametric about the same as walking around a major city i imagine. [23:28]
diametric theres a lot of talk about ufps [23:28]
mircea_popescu ic [23:29]
diametric but not a lot of peer reviewed evidence of any real danger [23:29]
asciilifeform congrats davout ! [23:29]
asciilifeform welcome back to planet of civilization, diametric ! [23:29]
diametric i lurk [23:29]
diametric mircea_popescu: i'll let you know if i develop popcorn lung [23:30]
mircea_popescu kk! [23:30]
mircea_popescu twas in my head closer to "you know, printer in 1930" than "you know, starbux barrista" [23:31]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i think modern baseline is close to 'printer in 1930' [23:31]
mircea_popescu also possibru [23:31]
asciilifeform somewhere between that and 'match girl' [23:31]
asciilifeform diametric: ironfill sounds interesting, can you steer it magnetically ? [23:32]
diametric absolutely [23:32]
diametric asciilifeform: [23:33]
assbot 3D Printer Filament Comparison | MatterHackers ... ( ) [23:33]
asciilifeform the ceramic filament looks appealing, one could print molds and pour, e.g., al [23:34]
diametric asciilifeform: its funny you bring up 3d printing, i just returned from the midwest reprap festival [23:37]
asciilifeform neato! [23:37]
asciilifeform any groundbreaking advances there ? [23:37]
diametric some interesting vat related stuff on the sla side [23:37]
diametric picked myself up a flex vat [23:38]
asciilifeform the thing with the projector and photosensitive gel ? [23:38]
diametric basically the vat for curing the SLA layers on is flexible, so when the print moves up a layer, the whole vat deforms in order to overcome the van der waals effect [23:38]
diametric yeah [23:38]
asciilifeform so looks something like the accordion from old daguerrotype camera ? [23:39]
mircea_popescu more like a ball with inserts nah ? [23:39]
diametric nah the vat is made out of a thin layer of FEP, so its like a clear rubber [23:39]
diametric [23:39]
assbot FlexVat – Standard and Large | ... ( ) [23:39]
diametric my buddy at seemecnc gave me one for free [23:40]
asciilifeform hm, that looks like just a frame ? [23:40]
asciilifeform where is the rubber [23:40]
diametric zoom in [23:40]
diametric its the clear thing held down by the frame [23:40]
diametric thats actually not the one i got, hangon. [23:41]
diametric [23:41]
assbot Universal Flexible Resin Vat Reservoir for DIY resin printers – SeeMeCNC ... ( ) [23:41]
diametric its sandwiched in the frame [23:41]
diametric a thin sheet of FEP [23:41]
asciilifeform ah hm [23:41]
mircea_popescu but in other news, [23:42]
assbot ... ( ) [23:42]
asciilifeform l0l! [23:42]
asciilifeform i'm actually mildly surprised that mircea_popescu doesn't have a 3d printer somewhere [23:43]
asciilifeform and making custom butt plugs, gags, to 5% accuracy [23:43]
mircea_popescu good buttplugs are surgical steel ; good gags cured leather etc. [23:44]
asciilifeform ah hm. [23:44]
mircea_popescu really, little use for plastic in life. [23:44]
diametric my favorite is still the giant thermochromatic cock [23:44]
asciilifeform then lathe! [23:44]
asciilifeform and tanning shop. [23:44]
* paxtoncamaro91_ is now known as madpax [23:46]
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