Forum logs for 23 Mar 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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mircea_popescu speaking of van der waals forces, apparently they've finally managed to make the spiderman suit. [00:08]
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mircea_popescu [00:10]
assbot Z-Man ... ( ) [00:10]
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mircea_popescu trinque ^ [02:52]
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trinque mircea_popescu: ty [03:32]
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mircea_popescu nono, ty. [03:40]
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deedbot- [Qntra] BitBet Receiver Hired - [04:05]
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BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [04:14]
gribble Current Blocks: {"blockcount":403880} | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: None | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [04:14]
BingoBoingo ;;nethash [04:14]
gribble 1178960569.18 [04:14]
BingoBoingo ;;8ball [04:15]
gribble About as likely as pigs flying. [04:15]
mircea_popescu nice BingoBoingo [04:18]
BingoBoingo ty [04:18]
BingoBoingo It's nice to be able to cover good news in the republic, its been a rough month for that. [04:19]
mircea_popescu word. [04:20]
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BingoBoingo [05:23]
assbot ... ( ) [05:23]
BingoBoingo ^ Ubuntu on stage [05:23]
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BingoBoingo In related news, typical fiat management [05:31]
assbot Charleston Gazette-Mail | Former Fayette animal shelter director arrested ... ( ) [05:31]
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BingoBoingo [06:30]
davout <<< guy has a point [06:35]
assbot BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 2 weeks 9 hours ago ... ( ) [06:35]
davout basically is saying that one of the addresses included in the double payout got paid twice ~11 btc and has over 50 btc in pending bet payouts [06:37]
davout more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any [06:39]
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punkman davout, makes sense [07:06]
punkman are you gonna look for older double-payouts too? [07:10]
davout probably not [07:12]
davout if bitbet made it until now without this problem, it's probably a good indicator that such a thing never happened before [07:13]
punkman pretty sure it did, or maybe I'm remembering double-dividends [07:14]
davout I'm going to check that everything that was paid against currently unpaid/unresolved/open bets matches the cash mp sent me, and if so there won't really be a point in checking that [07:14]
davout double-dividends is something that's much easier to fix :) [07:14]
davout it's not a bug, it's a feature: Dividends-In-Advance(tm)(r)!!1 [07:15]
* assbot gives voice to diana_coman [07:28]
punkman [07:29]
assbot Redox - Your Next(Gen) OS ... ( ) [07:29]
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danielpbarron sucks for bettors who reused addresses, huh [08:50]
davout danielpbarron: howso? [09:01]
davout some address 1foo got double-paid by X btc [09:01]
davout same address has unpaid winnings for Y btc [09:02]
davout actual payable claim would be Y - (X/2) [09:02]
danielpbarron i get it, but if 1foo had never used that address for payout again, you'd never know which address to withhold from [09:07]
BingoBoingo Aha, I knew it would happen, but I didn't know it would happen this early. The reciever is now burdened with CHOICE. [09:08]
davout oic what you mean, i misunderstood [09:08]
BingoBoingo [09:14]
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asciilifeform << fuck shitlangs and fuck i-could-have-made-anything-but-i-made-another-unix . with a red hot poker. [09:21]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 10:24:47; punkman: [09:21]
asciilifeform << interesting how none of these folks ever considered sending the doubled coin back... but they whine, whine, about delay! [09:27]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 09:32:38; davout: basically is saying that one of the addresses included in the double payout got paid twice ~11 btc and has over 50 btc in pending bet payouts [09:27]
danielpbarron why should anyone send coin back? as far as they should be concerned the extra payment had nothing to do with bitbet [09:29]
asciilifeform actually i have nfi, did bbet use a published addr for pays? [09:30]
punkman asciilifeform: no [09:31]
asciilifeform and in any case it was pretty clear that it was double send, mircea_popescu published the tx [09:31]
asciilifeform so this excuse was not available, danielpbarron [09:31]
asciilifeform and yes, they had no obligation to send it back, etc. but if they had, there would be no reactor fire, and a still-operating bbet. that isn't about to be auctioned off to spammerz. [09:34]
punkman /me bids 1 bitcoin for [09:34]
* danielpbarron isn't so sure that would have been the case [09:34]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: how's that [09:34]
danielpbarron it was a matter of principle, not so much a lack of money [09:35]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: the trigger was the money. [09:36]
BingoBoingo Way to repay bitbet was crystal clear too. Propose 1+1=2 and bet on no. [09:36]
danielpbarron or just send into any closed bet [09:36]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: nonsense, folks would bet on yes and win. danielpbarron has it. [09:36]
danielpbarron heh i'd prolly have bet on yes lol [09:37]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: But the 0-conf bet would have been wrong before approval. 0-conf Bets made the BitBet mixer go around [09:37]
BingoBoingo ;;later tell pete_dushenski [09:39]
gribble The operation succeeded. [09:39]
davout a diligent commenter did the math, the actual shortfall seems to be 4.37385306 btc -> [09:40]
assbot BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 2 weeks 12 hours ago ... ( ) [09:40]
* asciilifeform saw this, hence the 'motherfuckers ~could~ have snt back' observation [09:41]
BingoBoingo [09:41]
punkman davout, what's gonna happen with bbet shares? [09:47]
davout punkman: the idea of a receivership is that you sell assets, use the cash to pay outstanding claims, the rest, if any, goes to shareholder [09:48]
davout *shareholders [09:48]
davout and regarding S.BBET specifically there's 3.2 (a) reading "The representatives of BitBet have elected to divide BitBet into 10`000`000 (ten million) equal non-voting shares with a total equity value of 100 BTC (0.00001 BTC each). In the event of liquidation or breach of this Agreement they solemnly promise and warrant to repay all investors holding shares at this minimum value." [09:51]
punkman what happens to "minimum value" if the liquidation nets less than 100 btc though? [09:54]
asciilifeform punkman: they pay from own pockets? [09:56]
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assbot BitBet Receiver Hired | Qntra ... ( ) [10:01]
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solrodar nubbins`: it's logical to reduce payments to those addresses if and only if if davout decides MP's double payment can be charged to the company [10:05]
assbot Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet ... ( ) [10:19]
* assbot gives voice to PeterL [10:23]
PeterL hmm davout are you really going to withhold bet payouts to bettors who were unlucky enough to receive free money from mp's personal funds << so if person A used separate addresses for bets and person B used the same address on multiple bets, A gets more money and B gets less? [10:25]
solrodar both bettors have a moral obligation to return the money, it's just that one of them is identifiable and the other one isn't [10:26]
danielpbarron solrodar, what moral obligation?? [10:27]
assbot BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( ) [10:27]
solrodar I doubt you'd believe that if you had lost a large sum of money by sending it to the wrong person by mistake [10:28]
shinohai !s 1 Kings 3:16-28 [10:30]
assbot 0 results for '1 Kings 3:16-28' : [10:30]
shinohai danielpbarron got to admit things were simpler in times when decisions involved swords. [10:31]
danielpbarron 1 Kings 3:16 Now two women who were harlots came to the king, and stood before him. 17 And one woman said, "O my lord, this woman and I dwell in the same house; and I gave birth while she was in the house. 18 Then it happened, the third day after I had given birth, that this woman also gave birth. And we were together; no one was with us in the house, except the two of us in the house. 19 And this woman's son died in the nig [10:32]
danielpbarron 22 Then the other woman said, "No! But the living one is my son, and the dead one is your son." [10:32]
danielpbarron And the first woman said, "No! But the dead one is your son, and the living one is my son." [10:32]
danielpbarron Thus they spoke before the king. 23 And the king said, "The one says, 'This is my son, who lives, and your son is the dead one'; and the other says, 'No! But your son is the dead one, and my son is the living one.'" 24 Then the king said, "Bring me a sword." So they brought a sword before the king. 25 And the king said, "Divide the living child in two, and give half to one, and half to the other." [10:33]
danielpbarron 26 Then the woman whose son was living spoke to the king, for she yearned with compassion for her son; and she said, "O my lord, give her the living child, and by no means kill him!" But the other said, "Let him be neither mine nor yours, but divide him." 27 So the king answered and said, "Give the first woman the living child, and by no means kill him; she is his mother." 28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the ki [10:34]
PeterL It does not matter who the true mother was, the one who wanted him to live was deemed a better mother [10:34]
PeterL but what does this have to do with returning mistakenly gifted coins? [10:35]
solrodar I was wondering the same thing [10:35]
solrodar I'm sure I could find some law about unjust enrichment in the bible if I looked hard enough [10:35]
danielpbarron please do (look hard) [10:36]
solrodar no, because nobody here except you gives a crap what the bible says [10:36]
danielpbarron you still haven't explained what's moral about returning the money [10:37]
solrodar you try to pay your rent, but make a typo and send the money to me instead [10:38]
solrodar should I send it back, minus a small fee for my inconvenience? [10:38]
danielpbarron have you stolen anything? [10:38]
PeterL I would call it charitable to return the money [10:39]
danielpbarron if it's charitable to return then it isn't immoral to keep [10:39]
solrodar I would call it Christian :P [10:39]
danielpbarron you who doesn't believe the Bible are going to say what someone who beileves in the Bible should do? [10:40]
PeterL lol [10:40]
solrodar seriously, I think you should return it whether you believe in the bible or not [10:40]
punkman #bible-assets [10:40]
danielpbarron I was not the recipient of the double funds, but if I had been I would surely keep it [10:41]
PeterL has mp asked people to return it? [10:41]
solrodar my argument is that a mistaken payment may have changed possession of the money, but not ownership of it [10:42]
solrodar since the sender never intended to transfer ownership to that person [10:42]
solrodar but I know some people say this doesn't apply to bitcoin [10:42]
davout pretty much everyone with a few neurons left actually [10:43]
solrodar does it apply to anything? [10:43]
danielpbarron there is no ownership in bitcoin, except that satoshi owns all of it [10:45]
danielpbarron you know a private key, someone else might know that private key. neither owns it [10:45]
mircea_popescu davout> <<< guy has a point << lemme tell you a story. when i was a kid, i don't recall exactly, 5, 6, something, my mother was very sad over i have no idea what - being as i was too young to comprehend the emotions and problems of adults. but to cheer her up i decided to make her a dress! to which purpose i proceeded to cut off the shiny [10:46]
mircea_popescu seal top off a bottle of Maltova and attach it to a piece of fabric with the loose sewing of a preschooler. [10:46]
assbot BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 2 weeks 13 hours ago ... ( ) [10:46]
mircea_popescu so yes, i can appreciate the sentiment, infantile such as it is. guy means well, i'm sure. but in point of fact he is so far removed from relevancy in any conceivable approach to the issues, that there's really very little to be said. [10:47]
mircea_popescu and speaking of this, most everyone involved^H^H^H^H^H^H inloved with bitcoin should insistently watch and rewatch malena, because it is EXACTLY the situation. [10:47]
mircea_popescu yes, the prepubescent boy is in love ; but what's he going to do for the adult woman ? have her WAIT ? [10:47]
solrodar danielpbarron: But you evidently apply the same principle to fiat bank accounts as well. Anything else? Your dog has just jumped in my window, is it my dog now? [10:48]
danielpbarron where have I done that? [10:49]
solrodar my above question re rent [10:49]
danielpbarron i guess you don't own your fiats either; the fed does or something [10:51]
PeterL solrodar if you sign a statement "I give my dog to danielpbarron", then yes it is his dog, and if you later say oops, I meant to give it to bob, then it is up to DPB to give the dog up, but he does not have to [10:55]
solrodar and a bitcoin transaction is equivalent to such a signed statement? [10:56]
davout solrodar: strictly [10:56]
mircea_popescu << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ? [10:56]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 09:34:25; davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any [10:56]
PeterL the bitcoin did not just move accidentally, bitcoin moves when somebody signs a statement "I own this bitcoin, I am sending it to address X" [10:56]
mircea_popescu solrodar no, because while the dog might be your dog, bitcoin may not actually be your bitcoin. [10:57]
PeterL that is the whole point of bitcoin, to definitively establish who owns it at all times! [10:57]
mircea_popescu you may at most control some. [10:57]
PeterL well, own, controll, whatever you want to call it [10:57]
mircea_popescu but other than that - nobody has any title over any bitcoin nor could anyone acquire any title over any bitcoin. [10:57]
mircea_popescu PeterL the difference happens to be rather important from a legal perspective. [10:57]
mircea_popescu "you know, react, dissolve, whatever you wanna call it" sorta thing. [10:58]
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solrodar so we say mircea_popescu controlled a large quantity of bitcoin, and had agreed to consider a certain quantity of it the property of bitbet, but that concept of property does not go beyond any agreement which may have existed between him and bitbet? [10:59]
mircea_popescu quite. [11:00]
davout <<< i'd argue the notion of "a fellow" is not relevant in this context on one hand, are you also seriously proposing that "selling a private key" is even possible? [11:00]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ? [11:00]
davout the moment you sell a private key it ceases to be private, and therefore ceases to be a private key [11:00]
mircea_popescu davout i am not proposing anything. you are proposing to introduce some assumptions, which seem ridiculous on the face, and are invited to support them. [11:00]
mircea_popescu so ? [11:00]
mircea_popescu fine, if you absolutely must : suppose owner made an agreement with a third party that the nth txn goes to x and the nth+1 goes to y. are they now bound to revise their agreements on the basis of how you may wish to liberally reinterpret the protocol ? [11:01]
mircea_popescu this is the ESSENCE of powerrangering. [11:01]
mircea_popescu it is also very visibly, and very risibly, reaction to bitcoin, which is to say a transparent attempt to exactly prevent specifically what bitcoin does, [11:02]
mircea_popescu which is, seal things in the past in such a way they aren't revisable in the future. [11:02]
solrodar mircea_popescu: aren't you the one that always argues that there are no people, only keys? In which case there's nothing wrong with recovering money from keys. If the key is controlled by multiple people, that's their problem. [11:02]
mircea_popescu solrodar you may not make assumptions. [11:03]
mircea_popescu certainly not after the fact. [11:03]
davout mircea_popescu: you haven't provided any support for the notion of "a fellow" that you introduced, or did i miss it? [11:04]
mircea_popescu you introduced it, really. but i restated the issue more formally and without reference to it. [11:05]
solrodar if any obligation exists between bitbet and a bettor, the bettor is identified by his key and nothing more [11:06]
davout mircea_popescu: i guess i did when i said 'bettor' [11:07]
mircea_popescu if you are going to make other determinations than who won a bet, might as well put a 50% tax on the richest 10% or w/e the french fashion is these days. [11:07]
mircea_popescu give more to the poor, they're worthier. [11:07]
davout bettor's an address though, and claims are bound to addresses, not people, are they? [11:07]
mircea_popescu this is an eery rehash of the earlier thing re "bitcoin is addresses / no it's txn" where jurov massacred me. [11:08]
mircea_popescu funny how everything is in the fucking log. dja recall it davout ? [11:08]
davout nah, plox to link [11:09]
davout !s bitcoin is addresses [11:09]
assbot 24 results for 'bitcoin is addresses' : [11:09]
mircea_popescu and prev. [11:10]
assbot Logged on 07-01-2016 00:00:47; jurov: input is a reference to an output from a previous transaction. output is: a hash of a previous transaction + Index of the specific output in the referenced transaction. [11:10]
mircea_popescu anyway, take it from a software design perspective. you are proposing to change the stateless parser (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (bet paid out) into a stateful and undefined (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (???) -> (some thing paid according to some rules you can't know) [11:11]
mircea_popescu really ? nuts! [11:11]
mircea_popescu and for that matter, are you going to pay out of pocket for the costs anyone and everyone incurs to adapt to this model, like nsa via gavin paid (to their own people) for their 2013 debacle ? [11:12]
* Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). [11:19]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [11:24]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [11:24]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [11:24]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [11:24]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [11:24]
mircea_popescu solrodar there's no bitcoin precedent of "unjust enrichment", and if it is introduced it applies first of all to all miners. [11:25]
mircea_popescu since when is block reward JUST enrichment ? [11:25]
mircea_popescu much like the tmsr license, bitcoin is deliberately constructed a certain way to destroy fiat notions of this world, not to maintain them nor to permit their maintenance. [11:26]
PeterL block reward is payment for work of processing block of transactions, seems justified to me [11:26]
mircea_popescu that it seems justified to you may make a difference when you're king of the world and can promise me to appoint all judges forevermore to comply with your notions. [11:27]
mircea_popescu until then - it's just another unbound promise. [11:28]
mircea_popescu promise here being a term of art standing in opposition with protocol. [11:28]
solrodar if you reject all notions of justice then this entire liquidation thing becomes meaningless [11:29]
mircea_popescu not so. it becomes meaningless to fiat twerps. [11:29]
mircea_popescu it is perfectly meaningful in its own proper terms, which is why tmsr prevails over any pretend fiat sovereign : [11:30]
PeterL If block reward is unjust, what is a just way of distributing coin? Or is that even possible? [11:30]
mircea_popescu they're meaningful to us, if risible ; we're not meaningful nor can be rendered meaningful for them. [11:30]
mircea_popescu PeterL what is the correct way of cheering your mother up with a tin of maltova and and a chunk of cloth ? [11:30]
PeterL wtf? [11:31]
mircea_popescu see log. [11:31]
davout mircea_popescu: that way does sound like a good way! [11:31]
PeterL saw log, still wtf? [11:31]
mircea_popescu davout it worked, that time, but i wouldn't rely on it! [11:31]
mircea_popescu PeterL do you find people are often able to help you when your problem is "wtf?" ? [11:32]
PeterL not expecting help, just completely lost as to where your question connects to mine? [11:32]
mircea_popescu fine, if you must : your question is not even a question in that it doesn't make any sense. [11:33]
davout maltova and chunks of cloth not so much... desire to cheer others up, i'd say why not [11:33]
PeterL more of an "I have no words" than a problem [11:33]
mircea_popescu dun sweat it. [11:33]
mircea_popescu davout hey, i can appreciate the sentiment. the equations, however, stay cold. [11:34]
solrodar << there was no precedent for liquidation either, yet you had quite specific ideas about how it should be done [11:34]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 14:20:36; mircea_popescu: solrodar there's no bitcoin precedent of "unjust enrichment", and if it is introduced it applies first of all to all miners. [11:34]
mircea_popescu it is the actual threshold of maturity, when the agent comprehends that some things must be done because of themselves and irrespective of their will. usually this discovery came to young people who were in love - but society has meanwhile "progressed" past that. [11:35]
mircea_popescu solrodar that is true. [11:35]
solrodar didn't those ideas come from your sense of justice, equity or whatever you call it? [11:40]
mircea_popescu lol k. what you're doing is roughly equivalent to coming into my house, attempting to give a name to one of my women and then proposing to exchange her for your own of the same name. ty but... [11:42]
mircea_popescu let her stand nude, it's more becoming. [11:42]
solrodar you know, a lot of your metaphors are stupid but that one almost reaches the level of a zen koan [11:45]
mircea_popescu aw! [11:49]
* solrodar goes to justly enrich himself [11:49]
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mircea_popescu it's not even a metaphor, it's a straight comparison. [11:49]
mircea_popescu << oya. [11:54]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 12:03:12; BingoBoingo: Aha, I knew it would happen, but I didn't know it would happen this early. The reciever is now burdened with CHOICE. [11:54]
asciilifeform HOLY FUCK [11:55]
asciilifeform is mircea_popescu drinking on the job?!??!! [11:55]
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mircea_popescu hola alfie! what ? [11:55]
asciilifeform << SINCE WHEN CAN YOU SELL A PRIVATE KEY [11:55]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ? [11:55]
asciilifeform you can't sell a private key! [11:55]
mircea_popescu you can't. [11:55]
asciilifeform you can only create a synthetic monster with split-personality syndrome! [11:55]
mircea_popescu he can do whatever the fuck he pleases. [11:55]
asciilifeform if you try to sell/share a key. [11:55]
mircea_popescu aha! so ? [11:55]
asciilifeform shared key is moral agent now ?! [11:55]
davout the receiver was already burdened with choice, since he has to certify, or not, claims [11:55]
mircea_popescu davout i'm sure you knew what you were getting into. [11:56]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform not the issue. the issue is, can you assume or can't you assume. and the result is you can't assume. [11:56]
davout yeah absolutely [11:56]
asciilifeform unless i misarithmetize catastrophically, davout is stuck with giving the bettors a haircut. question is ~which~. will there be 'communism', where they all bleed equally? or 'judgement day', when the scumbags bleed first. [11:57]
mircea_popescu you got the parts switched tho! [11:57]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ? [11:57]
mircea_popescu will there be judgement day, when all there is is dark, or will there be "communism" aka "christianity" aka a hunchback god tries to create a world just like he's seen in his sane, healthy brother's hands ? [11:57]
mircea_popescu (and if anyone's unfamiliar with the hunchback god, plox to take a break and read up on teh gnosis. it'll be good for you.) [11:58]
asciilifeform i would like to smoke the necessary dope to see mircea_popescu's pov here, where the scum who got paid twice had the temerity to whine about delayed payouts while sitting on their unearned windfall, but then somehow deserve to be paid a THIRD TIME [11:59]
asciilifeform nubbins`: no [11:59]
mircea_popescu deserve dun enter into i. [11:59]
mircea_popescu it* [11:59]
mircea_popescu and in the interest of not fucking up everyhing in one fell swoop of well meaning idiocy, "deserve"'d better not enter into it. [12:00]
asciilifeform << ok this is can sorta see [12:00]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 13:56:37; mircea_popescu: fine, if you absolutely must : suppose owner made an agreement with a third party that the nth txn goes to x and the nth+1 goes to y. are they now bound to revise their agreements on the basis of how you may wish to liberally reinterpret the protocol ? [12:00]
* asciilifeform sits back down on his stake [12:00]
asciilifeform << this is true though [12:01]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 14:01:40; solrodar: if any obligation exists between bitbet and a bettor, the bettor is identified by his key and nothing more [12:01]
asciilifeform there are no people in the universe other than the keys [12:01]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform see, this is how professional life goes. you are paid well to sit in silence in a room and pick the right thread under a microscope ; i am paid even better to sit in the din of the market and pick the right thread with bare eyes. [12:02]
mircea_popescu now tell me re deserve again. [12:02]
asciilifeform and introducing 'what if there were some agreement re: n+1th etc' is the place where unwarranted assumptions are made [12:02]
mircea_popescu and how is that ? [12:02]
asciilifeform keys are people, people are keys. [12:02]
mircea_popescu if this were the case one'd get one key issued with the ssn. [12:02]
asciilifeform if meatbags were abusing bitcoin by sharing a private key, they earned their hell. [12:03]
mircea_popescu bitcoin addresses aren't acceptable proof of identity (such as for instance through that "signing" kludge) specifically for this reason. [12:03]
mircea_popescu again - earned dun enter into it. [12:03]
asciilifeform but rsa is ? [12:03]
mircea_popescu conventionally, atm, it is. [12:03]
mircea_popescu mostly because - not bitcoin. [12:03]
asciilifeform from my perch, they suck ~equally. [12:03]
mircea_popescu and so they do. [12:03]
mircea_popescu man and woman also suck equally, one has the children the other doesn't. [12:04]
asciilifeform this is an argument ? [12:04]
mircea_popescu no, your "from my perch, they suck ~equally" is no argument, just color. [12:04]
mircea_popescu things may suck equally, so what of it. MERIT STILL DUN ENTER INTO IT! [12:04]
asciilifeform << i can see this. but we got there already, are already inserted on that stake, regardless of what happens, because the bettors ~will~ get a haircut [12:04]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 14:06:24; mircea_popescu: anyway, take it from a software design perspective. you are proposing to change the stateless parser (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (bet paid out) into a stateful and undefined (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (???) -> (some thing paid according to some rules you can't know) [12:04]
asciilifeform they already will get a ??? --> something paid according to some rules they can't know [12:05]
asciilifeform because the damn thing br0k3. [12:05]
mircea_popescu there's something to this. [12:05]
asciilifeform bbet is functioning in what we call in the civilized world 'нештатный режим' [12:05]
asciilifeform like car with the wheels off. [12:06]
asciilifeform or engine on fire. [12:06]
asciilifeform the question is not 'whether bettors will be shafted' but ~with what kind of shaft' [12:07]
asciilifeform ~ [12:08]
mircea_popescu "the simplest" [12:08]
mircea_popescu well, it is also possible bitbet sells well and makes the issue moot. [12:09]
asciilifeform it is even possible that coin will fall from the sky into the right addr and make it moot... [12:09]
asciilifeform like it fell upon the scum [12:09]
mircea_popescu so it is. why so much haet anyway [12:10]
asciilifeform << one of the ways we get komyooonisms is that 'divide it all among the scum equally' is 'THE SIMPLEST' algo in the world. [12:11]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 15:03:51; mircea_popescu: "the simplest" [12:11]
asciilifeform abdicates all judgement. [12:11]
asciilifeform mathematically - easiest. etc. [12:11]
mircea_popescu can you elaborate on this communism identification, cuz i dun see it ? [12:11]
asciilifeform pretending that unequals are equals. [12:12]
mircea_popescu let's maybe start with, what is your definition of communism ? [12:12]
asciilifeform see above. [12:12]
mircea_popescu so really equalitarianism ? not, "from each according to his wallet, to each according to his needs" sorta thing ? [12:12]
asciilifeform the bettors are ~not~ all identical in their misfortune. [12:12]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: well these are connected, no ? [12:12]
mircea_popescu im not sure! [12:13]
PeterL connected only if you assume needs are equal, right? [12:14]
asciilifeform they are separable in the strict sense where the thermodynamics has two phases [12:14]
asciilifeform the dekulakization phase, and the steady state [12:14]
asciilifeform (the latter, a mythical animal) [12:14]
* asciilifeform momentarily stunned by mircea_popescu being confessedly unsure of something!1111 [12:14]
mircea_popescu i think this angle is interesting and should be pursued. so asciilifeform : do you suppose that the harem is intrinsically communist, if and in that the women are equals ? [12:15]
mircea_popescu !s from:mircea not sure [12:15]
assbot 567 results for 'from:mircea not sure' : [12:15]
mircea_popescu HATER [12:15]
asciilifeform l0l! [12:15]
mircea_popescu hehe [12:15]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i do not rightfully have a firm enough grip on harem to answer. [12:15]
asciilifeform i know more about the bacteria that live on the bottom of the sea. [12:16]
mircea_popescu ok... let's see. hm. [12:16]
mircea_popescu do you have two friends ? [12:16]
asciilifeform sure. [12:16]
mircea_popescu if you go eating together, is it communism if you go wherever you all agree to go ? [12:16]
asciilifeform nah, that's just good ol'fashioned agreement. [12:17]
mircea_popescu but you're unequals that pretend to equality ? [12:17]
mircea_popescu in short, yes, i suspect your take on communism may actually require alienation outright. [12:17]
asciilifeform for the evening. [12:17]
mircea_popescu but it IS communism ? [12:17]
asciilifeform if we seal ourselves in a cave and take turns eating own limbs, THEN - yes. [12:17]
mircea_popescu so what's the threshold ? [12:17]
asciilifeform what's the threshhold for jumping off cliff ? is it when you splat? when you're in freefall? when you stop the car? when brushing your teeth that morning, thinking 'cliff..' ??? [12:18]
mircea_popescu not a question without merit. [12:18]
asciilifeform this is not a question having a useful answer though. [12:18]
mircea_popescu so how are you going to be a lord ? [12:18]
asciilifeform it is your mathematical 'pole' from 2 days ago [12:18]
asciilifeform straddling the asymptote. [12:18]
asciilifeform being a lord, as i see it, is not about balancing pencils on their points, but pushing the pencil in your CHOSEN direction and ~standing by~ the decision for the rest of your life. [12:19]
mircea_popescu that's being a soldier. [12:19]
asciilifeform is it so different ? [12:19]
mircea_popescu a flattering view, in its innocent purity, but not how practice ever works that i've seen [12:19]
asciilifeform i suppose i am then a soldier. [12:19]
mircea_popescu well, it tends to become. [12:20]
mircea_popescu so then how do you discern when another's crossed the pole, which practically speaking is an event horizon ? [12:20]
mircea_popescu through prayer ? [12:20]
asciilifeform in the end, only sure when you hear the splat. [12:20]
asciilifeform but you PUSH the pencil. [12:20]
mircea_popescu hm. [12:20]
asciilifeform take a stand. it is one of the things i always appreciated about mircea_popescu !11 [12:20]
asciilifeform that he DID this. [12:20]
asciilifeform many times. [12:20]
mircea_popescu why thank you. [12:21]
mircea_popescu but the problem remains, i have nfi how to dispose of the communism charge in that place. [12:21]
asciilifeform that's really what ~will is~. [12:21]
asciilifeform you do it by picking up the sword and saying 'eh no you buggers ain't equal' [12:21]
mircea_popescu no, that's how you dispose of the MATTER once you disposed of the communism charge on the side of "yep, s oit is" [12:22]
asciilifeform but it is not my place to tell mircea_popescu (or davout , who in this case is holding the scalpel ) exactly how. [12:22]
mircea_popescu atm i can't see that it is and dunno how to completely argue it isn't. [12:22]
mircea_popescu seems to me that if you have nine girls and one penis, fucking each ~weekly is not in any sense communism, but just as you say, good ol' agreement & conjugal peace. [12:23]
asciilifeform note that sultan did not do this.. [12:24]
mircea_popescu so it is. [12:24]
mircea_popescu but note that the sultan was an idiot. [12:24]
mircea_popescu (and the mythical rashid that wasn't - did do this.) [12:24]
asciilifeform again, this is far from my planet, i cannot rightfully propose to judge the sultan. [12:25]
mircea_popescu is it communism if you have two hammers with slightly different utilities that you use indiferently ? [12:25]
asciilifeform but the bettors who kept their windfall and then whined about being 'cheated', they are plainly scum and the wrath of ragnarok is theirs to be suffered ~first~ by any reasonable justice, imho. [12:25]
mircea_popescu to put the matter bluntly : is it communism to round ? [12:25]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform again - attempting to interpose yourself between the perceptibles and sophia is a very expensive and ultimately self destructive desire. [12:26]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: possibly. [12:26]
mircea_popescu not that i know anyone not guilty of it, heck, it's my cardinal sin i'm discovering. [12:26]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform would you say a man is a communist who goes to the casino every weekend and plays either blackjack or roulette as he feels like it that day, because really, the house edge is not the same ? [12:27]
asciilifeform which is why i'm not envying davout his job. [12:28]
mircea_popescu is the man who doesn't drive across town to buy milk a dime a gallon cheaper a communist ? [12:28]
trinque I think this apt building is communist for having shut off my water today to fix some pipes elsewhere in the building. [12:28]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc the christians called it 'sloth' [12:29]
asciilifeform and every living thing is in its heart, on a bad day, 'communist' [12:29]
asciilifeform see also the proverbial 'ты умри сегодня а я завтра'. [12:29]
mircea_popescu but this is utter nonsense! [12:30]
asciilifeform not the roulette, i mean [12:31]
mircea_popescu remarkably, i had found this in the states, you know, people from the generation that "anti american activities", ie, still had a fighting bone in their body, WOULD engage in this patently insane behaviour. [12:31]
asciilifeform the fundamental 'communist' act is to ~lean on the group~ [12:31]
mircea_popescu now that is very much how i conceive hte notion. [12:31]
asciilifeform aha! [12:31]
mircea_popescu which is how solrodar's slavegirl exchange ended up rebuffed. da fuck do i care to import some group bs. [12:32]
* asciilifeform still grunting his way through log [12:32]
mircea_popescu lol trinque [12:33]
mircea_popescu truly, communism was built in the roman islae. [12:34]
asciilifeform insulae? [12:34]
mircea_popescu aha [12:34]
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asciilifeform the way i see it, and again i feel quite fortunate not to be stuck with the scalpel, [12:38]
asciilifeform is that the folks who kept the coin LEANED-on-the-group. [12:38]
asciilifeform at least after mircea_popescu made public the tx ids. [12:38]
mircea_popescu you can't start coloring coins. seriously. [12:39]
mircea_popescu it's anathema. [12:39]
asciilifeform i was not the one who printed the tx... [12:39]
asciilifeform and if there is a colour, i point to it. [12:39]
asciilifeform why should i live in a fictional universe of oughts. [12:39]
asciilifeform when there is a colour - there is one. [12:40]
mircea_popescu if you're going to drop the bitcoin scalar in favour of a bitcoin-justice vector, there is really no fucking point to even bother, just visa. [12:40]
asciilifeform when there is a fella with a scalpel, you ~already~ made a small visa. [12:40]
asciilifeform that is why there is no happy ending to this tale. [12:40]
mircea_popescu his scalpel is to cut in the corporation, not in the fucking world. [12:40]
mircea_popescu what if i come to the kitchen one morning and discover girl cooking burned... the color blue. [12:40]
mircea_popescu everwhere, permanently. wtf. [12:40]
mircea_popescu the cold truth of the matter being, of course, that bitcoin's an imponerable that obviously can't be cut. but when you, the sleeping butterfly that dreams himself lao tzi, in your dream believe to have cut into it, [12:42]
mircea_popescu the result is that your dream diverges from reality by that much, and it's not clear breaches OF THAT NATURE can ever be healed. [12:42]
mircea_popescu short of direct divine intervention or somesuch. [12:42]
asciilifeform but it will cut how it wants, and it not mathematically deterministic/predictable, and will answer to no one. [12:42]
asciilifeform the tragedy was precisely in the circumstances which produced the scalpel hand. not in who will be cut, that is secondary. [12:43]
mircea_popescu say that again with less it s [12:43]
asciilifeform my terminal is bodged, 1sec [12:43]
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mircea_popescu no rush [12:43]
asciilifeform << they are healed the way the demolition of newtonian mechanics was 'healed' [12:44]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 15:37:30; mircea_popescu: the result is that your dream diverges from reality by that much, and it's not clear breaches OF THAT NATURE can ever be healed. [12:44]
asciilifeform which is to say, we find ways to live with the wound [12:44]
mircea_popescu that wasn't a wound, it was on the contrary, the closing of a gap [12:44]
mircea_popescu "healing" that is easy enough to do. [12:45]
asciilifeform closing at the cost of tearing a new (qm / gr) gash [12:45]
asciilifeform but i digress. [12:46]
asciilifeform and i'm not even sure we have a cataclysm here [12:47]
asciilifeform let's do a gedankenexperiment [12:47]
asciilifeform say i owe mircea_popescu 100 btc [12:47]
asciilifeform (sold my organz!111) [12:47]
asciilifeform to be delivered by next tuesday. [12:47]
mircea_popescu aite [12:48]
asciilifeform tomorrow i trip over a cable, fall on a button, accidentally fire pistol, the bullet hits another button, sends him 90 btc. [12:48]
asciilifeform how much do i owe him on next tuesday ? [12:48]
mircea_popescu 10. [12:48]
asciilifeform aha! [12:48]
asciilifeform so ditto bbet creditors ?? [12:48]
mircea_popescu how so ? [12:49]
asciilifeform or what am i missing. [12:49]
mircea_popescu you are missing this : [12:49]
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mircea_popescu mp is out of money and now running a lemonade stand. you take a menu one day strolling by, and on this menu it says : lemonade, 10 bitcents, address 1lemonade ; fucking with a hammer, 12 bitcents, adress 1fuckinghammer. [12:50]
mircea_popescu you pistolaccident 60 bitcents to 1fuckinghammer, show up at lemonade stand "i would like a lemonade" [12:50]
mircea_popescu you're getting fucked with a hammer [12:50]
mircea_popescu five times. [12:50]
trinque !b 4 [12:50]
assbot Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [12:50]
asciilifeform fair! [12:51]
mircea_popescu so then. [12:51]
mircea_popescu anything else is "screw your bitcoin - dwim, chcte!" [12:52]
mircea_popescu which is, if nothing else, prohibitively expensive. [12:52]
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asciilifeform i however see the notion of not fucking-with-a-hammer those malodorous thieving swine who silently kept the windfall and LEANED ON THE GROUP, as ultimately very expensive. [12:53]
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mircea_popescu power is not given you to finally get even with those you fucking hate. [12:54]
mircea_popescu i am deeply sorry to disappoint, [12:54]
asciilifeform well not to me obviously. [12:54]
mircea_popescu heh. you see ? [12:54]
asciilifeform but the fella with the scalpel is stuck cutting somebody. [12:54]
asciilifeform my place was merely to suggest ~whom~. which is done. [12:55]
asciilifeform i recommend - the communists. [12:55]
mircea_popescu i recommend blindness, because i fucking well aren't going to be supplying all the candles now required or in the future needed to look in all possible or conceivable dark crevices ; nor do i see who ever could. [12:56]
asciilifeform i can see this. [12:56]
asciilifeform solomon - agreed. [12:56]
mircea_popescu and no - it moterfucking IS NOT "our obligation to try anyway, mp, try, try". [12:57]
mircea_popescu fucking welfarism blergh. [12:57]
asciilifeform i also did not say 'obligation' now did i. [12:57]
mircea_popescu fuck or get off the bitch, this trying is giving me hypertension. [12:58]
mircea_popescu well no, you didn't say. [12:58]
mircea_popescu you know the samovar joke ? [12:58]
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asciilifeform hm? [12:58]
mircea_popescu !s from:mircea samovar joke [12:58]
assbot 1 results for 'from:mircea samovar joke' : [12:58]
mircea_popescu ha! [12:58]
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mircea_popescu bum of the town falls asleep drunk on railroad. steam engine comes and thrashes him thoroughly. [12:59]
mircea_popescu sometime later, bleeding heart rich old lady invites bum over for tea [12:59]
mircea_popescu samovar is brought in steaming in all its samovarish glory. [13:00]
mircea_popescu bum jumps up, throws the thing to the ground, stomps it into a flat sheet [13:00]
mircea_popescu "what got into you!!1" [13:00]
mircea_popescu "these things - you gotta kill them young." [13:00]
asciilifeform l0l! [13:01]
davout kek [13:01]
davout btw, is mircea_popescu in a position to transfer the domain? [13:02]
davout because as far as the whois is concerned, the domain contact is... chetty [13:03]
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asciilifeform briefly back to mega-thread, i ~very much see the appeal~ of mircea_popescu's 'cold equations, motherfuckers!' angle. [13:07]
asciilifeform but afaik we like cold equations because they are SOLID and PREDICTABLE, not because cold. [13:07]
asciilifeform and our 'equations' have already warmed over, in this case. [13:07]
asciilifeform like warm beer. [13:07]
mircea_popescu no, we like them specifically because cold. [13:08]
mircea_popescu we got the women for heat, makes a fine engine. [13:08]
mircea_popescu cup a cunt in the left, pick some ~actual numbers~ in the right, watch your eyebrows spin. [13:09]
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asciilifeform what i meant was, whatever the bettors end up getting, will be an output of human caprice. [13:09]
mircea_popescu davout darn, it is ? ima dig into it. [13:09]
asciilifeform not hard numberz. [13:09]
mircea_popescu you got a namecheap acct it can be pushed to ? [13:10]
davout mircea_popescu: i can make one [13:10]
mircea_popescu be so kind thx [13:10]
davout so it won't be an issue will it? [13:10]
mircea_popescu confirmed, i have it here. [13:12]
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mircea_popescu poor chetty. [13:14]
davout :( [13:14]
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mircea_popescu lemme know where to push it. [13:14]
davout i will [13:15]
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mircea_popescu << ftr i'm not too sold on this sort of argument. if only the bullet hadn't hit your beloved franz ... then what ? wouldn't have been a war ? he wouldn't have been a man, or a soldier ? [13:21]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 12:29:04; asciilifeform: and yes, they had no obligation to send it back, etc. but if they had, there would be no reactor fire, and a still-operating bbet. that isn't about to be auctioned off to spammerz. [13:21]
mircea_popescu vorbe de claca. [13:21]
asciilifeform then reactor fire next week !111 [13:23]
asciilifeform but not this. [13:23]
mircea_popescu i thought the consensus was this reactor should have fired a year ago or w/e. [13:23]
asciilifeform but anyway if it were my job to describe parallel universes, i'd put up a shingle!111 [13:23]
mircea_popescu aha. [13:23]
asciilifeform in other lulz, i was looking at 'google map' near $rupturefarm, and found a 'metaphysical chapel.' [13:24]
asciilifeform maybe there they do parallel universes!11 [13:24]
mircea_popescu go, ask ? [13:25]
asciilifeform one of these days! [13:25]
asciilifeform first i might eat at the 'cafe saigon' [13:26]
asciilifeform (can i eat while hanging off a chopper skid ??) [13:26]
mircea_popescu lol [13:30]
mircea_popescu or at least while the very earnest eastern whores of the 50s [13:30]
asciilifeform aha! [13:31]
BingoBoingo in other lulz, i was looking at 'google map' near $rupturefarm, and found a 'metaphysical chapel.' << I'll have you know I took 500 level metaphysical classes in University [13:38]
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BingoBoingo !up mrottenkolber [13:55]
* assbot gives voice to mrottenkolber [13:55]
mrottenkolber BingoBoingo: What's up? [13:55]
BingoBoingo mrottenkolber: Oh, the usual [13:55]
BingoBoingo To discover what the usual is you have to go to the logs, but not before the end of October, because around that time the usual changed [13:59]
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thestringpuller asciilifeform: soul brew eh? [14:21]
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mircea_popescu BingoBoingo it did ? [14:25]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Well the stop drinking thing was a rather substantive change in the usual. I think reduced the N in my SNR, but I'm not entirely sure. [14:26]
mircea_popescu ah ah, you were talking abot yerself! i c. [14:27]
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ben_vulpes << madness, madness! [14:31]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 09:34:25; davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any [14:31]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes go through the log, it's argued. [14:31]
ben_vulpes mhm. [14:32]
ben_vulpes << on the n+1 thread, consider also the broker, asciilifeform. [14:33]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 14:58:19; asciilifeform: if meatbags were abusing bitcoin by sharing a private key, they earned their hell. [14:33]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: broker? [14:40]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: folks who share privkeys create schizo synthetic monsters, a la gox, and are hostis humani generis. [14:45]
davout ben_vulpes: do elaborate [14:46]
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ben_vulpes asciilifeform: a broker'd not have to share keys with anyone. [14:52]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: how do brokers enter into anything ? [14:59]
asciilifeform explain plox. [14:59]
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asciilifeform whatever repayment obligation bbet has to anyone at all, it was and remains to ADDRESSES, not to 'people', 'persons', or whatever other old world claptrap [15:03]
asciilifeform privkeys == people, for any sane purpose. [15:03]
asciilifeform and given that the only signatures establishing the obligation were btc tx-en, that is to whom it owed. [15:04]
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asciilifeform i can't see any hole in this wall. [15:04]
kakobrekla from the first paragraph of the bb faq: The beneficiary address is never changed under any circumstances. Please make sure you own it! [15:04]
asciilifeform aha!! [15:04]
asciilifeform ergo btc privkeys ARE the playing characters in the game [15:05]
asciilifeform the only moral entities for whatever purpose. [15:05]
asciilifeform and to try to infer or posit people or whatnot 'behind' the keys, is to introduce chess pieces to a card game [15:05]
ben_vulpes sure. [15:06]
asciilifeform so what then does ben_vulpes give as argument re why the double-send should not count against the obligations remaining ? [15:07]
ben_vulpes kakobrekla: nowhere in there does it say "if we overpay and can identify the people to whom we overpaid, we'll clawback funds from those addresses." [15:07]
asciilifeform not 'claw back' [15:07]
asciilifeform but declare obligation settled. [15:07]
asciilifeform which it IS. [15:07]
asciilifeform by that amount. [15:07]
asciilifeform they were PAID. [15:08]
ben_vulpes eerily reminiscient of the commerce clause. "in addition to these explicit terms in our favor, we may decide in the future to do other things." [15:08]
ben_vulpes so was my ticket to con3, by mthreat. [15:08]
asciilifeform e.g., go broke an' into receivership. [15:08]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu issued a receipt and all [15:08]
kakobrekla ben_vulpes see under 'misc' and [15:08]
assbot BitBet (S.BBET) February 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [15:08]
assbot BitBet (S.BBET) March 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [15:08]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: see thread. bbet is already doing many 'other things', from which there is no escape. [15:09]
asciilifeform whether or not you credit the chinese miners, the sybil net, or the devil, whoever, [15:11]
asciilifeform i can't see how the scumbags who pocketed the doublespend and then whined about bet payout delay, are not accomplices in the murder of bbet. [15:12]
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kakobrekla nah [15:12]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: why not ? [15:13]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: now credits the howling monkeys outside of the wot with accomplishing things? [15:13]
kakobrekla if mp would rm -rf private keys, his linux distro would be the murderer? [15:13]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: monkeys accomplish plenty. just not anything you would want. [15:14]
asciilifeform e.g., tearing apart jungle temple, burying the remains - in shit, banana peels. [15:14]
ben_vulpes moreover how does one know that any commenter on bitbet is a bettor? are they 'signing' things with the appropriate privkeys now? [15:14]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you neither know, nor need to. [15:14]
asciilifeform the obligation was to the ADDRESSES. [15:14]
asciilifeform they betted by transmitting a tx. [15:14]
asciilifeform the beneficiary addr and the bet amount are literally the ~only~ things we know for certain about them. [15:15]
asciilifeform the comments - could all be fictions, yes. [15:15]
asciilifeform but if any of them had seen it fit to return so much as one satoshi of the doublesend - i assume mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, or davout would have mentioned. [15:16]
asciilifeform (i could be wrong) [15:16]
kakobrekla i havent noticed anything that would point to that [15:17]
asciilifeform mega-unsurprise. [15:17]
kakobrekla anyway, care to poke a hole in the rm -rf case? [15:18]
asciilifeform yes. [15:18]
asciilifeform these are supposed to be ~people~ [15:18]
kakobrekla i thought they were just addresses [15:18]
asciilifeform well yes. [15:18]
asciilifeform if we can have them be just addresses, the obligation was to ADDRESSES and is SATISFIED [15:19]
asciilifeform because they were paid. just slightly earlier than ought to have been. [15:19]
asciilifeform and partially. [15:19]
asciilifeform whereas if we paint them as 'people,' they then had a ~choice~ re: what to do with the coin. [15:20]
asciilifeform you can't be a 'people' when you feel like it, and then a 'mechanism' when it suits you. [15:20]
kakobrekla the prepayment is separate issue here [15:20]
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asciilifeform say i owe mircea_popescu 100 btc. [15:22]
asciilifeform and i have a vorpal sword, worth 150 [15:22]
asciilifeform i forget it on a park bench. he finds it. [15:22]
asciilifeform i ask 'gimme back me sword, mircea_popescu ' [15:22]
kakobrekla the fuck up is in the forgetting it on the bench. [15:23]
asciilifeform he might. but only after i pay the 100. [15:23]
PeterL but if any of them had seen it fit to return so much as one satoshi of the doublesend - i assume mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, or davout would have mentioned. << If I did want to return part of doublespend, where would I send it and be sure MP does not just pocket it? [15:23]
asciilifeform PeterL: read any bbet statement, you will find 'gracious donations' [15:24]
asciilifeform PeterL: so you know EXACTLY how to put coin in bbet pocket, it was never a secret. [15:24]
asciilifeform not to mention that ~any~ btc can be sent back to originator addr!! [15:25]
asciilifeform note that i am not arguing that this is a moral obligation [15:25]
kakobrekla the originator would not necessarily show up in donations and not sure if anyone would notice. [15:25]
asciilifeform merely that it counts against your debt. [15:25]
asciilifeform by any sane reckoning. [15:25]
PeterL but if I return this doublespend, is it still going to be taken out of my other bets the site is holding? [15:26]
asciilifeform nubbins`: your contention is that it was impossible for the windfall recipients to return it ? [15:26]
asciilifeform nubbins`: the separate-entities thing [15:27]
kakobrekla < or to put it in another way 'bitcoin is an inanimate fucking object' [15:27]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 18:13:33; asciilifeform: these are supposed to be ~people~ [15:27]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: aha! so treat the obligation as to the inanimate object: the ADDRESS. [15:27]
kakobrekla asciilifeform i agree with that. [15:28]
asciilifeform address was owed B btc at time T if condition C. [15:28]
asciilifeform it was given B - e at time T - q. Now, condition C. [15:28]
asciilifeform so it is owed e. [15:28]
kakobrekla asciilifeform but that also makes it clear who is to blame for bbet shutdown. and not its not the bettors who got two payments. [15:28]
asciilifeform nubbins`: except that it is not external. [15:29]
asciilifeform what i'm saying is that obligation was from bbet-addr to bettor-addr. [15:30]
asciilifeform and not from imaginary animals sitting at the controls. [15:30]
asciilifeform nubbins`: i see what you did there. [15:30]
PeterL sounds like ripple [15:31]
asciilifeform nubbins`: both payments were quite clearly 'from bbet' tho. [15:32]
asciilifeform from the perspective of the recipients [15:32]
asciilifeform say they had received only ONE of them. [15:32]
asciilifeform either one. [15:32]
asciilifeform they would consider themselves fairly repaid ? [15:32]
asciilifeform or not ? [15:32]
asciilifeform tell me that they would not, then you will have an argument [15:32]
kakobrekla i find the distinction quite irrelevant [15:32]
asciilifeform if either ALONE would have satisfied the creditors, they were then idempotent ! [15:34]
asciilifeform ergo both 'from bbet' for any conceivable purpose. [15:34]
asciilifeform and i have yet to read of a bbet user who wrote in, 'fuck you! i got my 22.222 btc but i can't be sure from whom and for what! pay up!' [15:34]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you can safely skip the preceding thread, it is a nubsism [15:37]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: though oddly enough he was arguing your side of the medal ! [15:37]
jurov "assign credit/debt to addresses" is kinda slippery slope, why not go beyond it and try to analyze and put together addresses in wallets and assign credit/debt to these? [15:38]
asciilifeform nubbins`: what am i to do, half the folks i talk to killfiled other half [15:38]
PeterL nubbins` what if MP was travelling when bet resolves, pays somebody to send txn to bet winners, do those payments not count because they don't come directly from bbet wallet? [15:39]
PeterL just hypothetical trying to understand your position [15:39]
jurov asciilifeform: really, since bitcoin makes whole wallets analyzable, why not apply the blame to whole wallet? moar justice!!! [15:39]
PeterL bitcoin is fungible, it does not matter to the recipient where it came from [15:40]
asciilifeform jurov: this is a leap into neverneverland. but operating using the ORIGINAL premise of bbet, where coin is owed to ADDRESS, is not. [15:40]
asciilifeform address - was paid! it was promised 'being paid', not 'be paid with metadata such-and-such' [15:41]
asciilifeform i don't recall any metadata. [15:41]
asciilifeform having been promised. [15:41]
asciilifeform if i promise that you will be 100btc richer tomorrow, and i choose to pay you by dropping it from an airplane into your chimney, so long as no one else contests that it was i who dropped - the debt is paid. [15:42]
asciilifeform nubbins`: no, because i had no commerce with him. [15:43]
asciilifeform nubbins`: BUT if i owed you 100, and he dropped 100, and i say 'i paid', and kakobrekla does not contest this claim - you've been paid. [15:43]
asciilifeform nubbins`: then irreconcilably different premises, aha, and i have no moar wordz. [15:44]
PeterL has anybody added up how much the doublepsent addresses have left deposited in bbet? [15:45]
asciilifeform ;;later tell pete_dushenski any idea what talmud says about all this ? [15:45]
gribble The operation succeeded. [15:45]
asciilifeform PeterL: iirc it is in the lee sedol comments. [15:46]
assbot SLEEP live at Hellfest 2013 - YouTube ... ( ) [15:47]
kakobrekla im not even sure what is being argued here but i feel it might relevant that proof of payment on bbet was always ambiguous - there was no explicit thing showing the payment - the most explicit was the lack of complaints [15:47]
* assbot gives voice to trinque [15:47]
trinque corporate personhood is also fiat bullshit [15:47]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: so it WAS 'you will be XXX btc richer', wasnit. [15:47]
trinque which turd stinks moar? [15:47]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: this answers, i think, my question of 'what exactly was it that bbet promised winners' [15:48]
asciilifeform so it was NOT 'ccc coin from addr aaa at time t' [15:48]
asciilifeform it was rather 'ccc coin to addr specified at bet time, at time t' [15:48]
asciilifeform t - was specified. and this condition was, yes, broken [15:49]
asciilifeform but it was broken routinely long before! [15:49]
asciilifeform every time payouts were delayed. [15:49]
asciilifeform so this time it was broken by paying them ccc - e coin at time t - t', ahead of schedule. [15:49]
PeterL I think the delay by bitcoin network was assumed to be okay [15:49]
kakobrekla asciilifeform yes, after the last fuck up i have added a way to specify the resulting tx when bet is resolved and payment is done so we wouldnt be doing two payments for one bet any more (because this obviously doesnt work!!) [15:50]
kakobrekla however this was not used - yet [15:50]
asciilifeform nubbins`: you are painting uncertainty where none existed. [15:50]
asciilifeform nubbins`: both tx were for ~every~ purpose, from bbet, to bettors. [15:51]
asciilifeform nubbins`: and not 'from mysterymeat to mysterymeat' [15:51]
davout jurov: X is a slippery slope isn't a valid argument for anything [15:52]
trinque this conversation is well downstream from the much more important question of *whose decision it about what a business they own does* [15:52]
asciilifeform davout: esp if the slope is not the least bit slippery, much as some folks might like to pour soap on it [15:53]
trinque if an owner of a business decides that address Y is now the payout address for something instead of X, fuck you, it is. [15:53]
trinque and if that causes a dispute among the board of said company, well, here we are. [15:53]
trinque nubbins`: and you're not one of them [15:53]
asciilifeform trinque: seems like the bettors were ~never~ promised payouts ~from particular addr~ [15:53]
asciilifeform trinque: but simply ~payout~ [15:53]
trinque the fuck is this committee action [15:53]
trinque lets make a congress to pass some laws so this never happens again [15:54]
trinque sure, flap [15:54]
asciilifeform trinque: i have no standing whatsoever re bbet. but the matter is in the forum, fwiw. so we comment. [15:54]
PeterL are you sure? [15:56]
trinque all of it smacks of us being a part of some aggregate whose opinion matters in the private dealings of those present. [15:56]
trinque I am not. [15:56]
PeterL this "vehement opposition" is weak sauce when compared to partisan politic disciples [15:57]
trinque trinque │ sure, flap [15:57]
asciilifeform trinque: it is called a forum. [15:58]
asciilifeform trinque: and ultimately davout has the scalpel now. but i can still ~say~ to him, 'hey listen up the liver is ~that~ way' [15:58]
asciilifeform trinque: he can agree, or not. [15:58]
davout asciilifeform: i think the matter becomes mucho clearer if you ask yourself "did bbet pay twice or did bbet pay once with mp coming along later for a gracious donation to the same recipients" [15:58]
asciilifeform davout: aha. [15:58]
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trinque if he acts as the business and declares it as so how can it be otherwise? [15:59]
jurov davout id did misresolve a bet [15:59]
jurov *it did [15:59]
asciilifeform davout: but say the 1st tx went into dev/null as mircea_popescu intended it to when sending the 2nd. would the bettors have been wronged ? [15:59]
davout in other words, if mp's claim on bbet is approved, it means he was acting on behalf of bbet, which means bbet can consider the same claim settled twice and deduct the amount from further payouts [15:59]
trinque this is nonsense [15:59]
asciilifeform davout: yes! [15:59]
jurov and it did not use that to settle later claims [15:59]
trinque nubbins`: you own a business and decide what it does, yes? [16:00]
davout if mp's claim is rejected because he did not in fact act on behalf of bbet, he simply made a gracious donation to random folks of his own volition [16:00]
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trinque nubbins`: can you invest your own money in your business which is then use to pay liabilites of said business? [16:00]
trinque yes you can [16:00]
PeterL so either way, the recipients should not send back funds [16:00]
trinque now if kakobrekla and mircea_popescu disagree on this point... here we are! [16:00]
davout PeterL: there is no "should" [16:00]
PeterL thank you for clearing that up for me , davout [16:00]
trinque but yes you can do that [16:00]
trinque right. [16:00]
trinque you are thinking as someone in the fiat world [16:01]
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trinque in point of fact you can buy a race car with company funds, wtf is that [16:02]
trinque you own the company! [16:02]
davout jurov: so? [16:02]
jurov just some precedent [16:02]
trinque there's some ridiculous hotdog chain here in TX that owns one iirc with their absurd logo painted on [16:02]
davout jurov: there's also precedent of dividends being paid twice for a month, and then retained from further divs payments [16:03]
trinque says what, canadian law?! [16:03]
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trinque this idea that there will be some social aggregate before which one can cry for justice... [16:03]
trinque death to that. [16:03]
davout asciilifeform: do you agree that, if the 17 btc mp sent a second time aren't billed to bbet, it follows that this second transaction can't come in deduction of bbet liabilities to bettors/addresses? [16:04]
PeterL either mp sent his own coin, and recipients get to keep it, or mp sent bbet coin, and davout would be justified in withholding futher payment from those addresses [16:05]
asciilifeform davout: aha [16:06]
PeterL when does Davout make this big decision? [16:06]
asciilifeform davout: my argument in the beginning of this mega-thread was that to give ~all bettors the same fraction of the haircut~ is 'communism' because they are in fact ~unequal~ in crafting their misfortune. [16:09]
asciilifeform davout: which is a separate issue. [16:09]
davout PeterL: yeah, that's pertty much the conclusion i came to so far [16:09]
davout asciilifeform: i'd argue communism would actually be the opposite [16:10]
trinque if mp declared he had loaned that coin to his business, who can say otherwise, and why? [16:10]
davout let's not go down this road :D [16:10]
trinque serious question imo [16:11]
asciilifeform davout: so the thieving swine who pocketed the windfall, KNEW whose coin it was, and what will happen to bbet, a 0-asset corp, when it is missing, and did nothing - have no greater share of responsibility than other bettors ? [16:11]
davout trinque: see 3.2. (d) [16:11]
assbot S.BBET last 26021@0.00002500 ... ( ) [16:11]
davout "(d) All decisions with regards to any aspect of BitBet, measures taken in regards to any aspect of BitBet operation, any actions, activities or agreements involving BitBet will require unanimous agreement of all the representatives of BitBet. Any such decision, measure, action, activity or agreement which fails to obtain unanimous agreement of all BitBet representatives is void and unenforceable. " [16:12]
asciilifeform nubbins`: it is described in the manual, what will happen if you send to a closed bet. [16:12]
davout <<< the way i understand the listing is that everything had to be approved by both, it usually happened retroactively with kakobrekla signing statements, until he didn't [16:15]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 19:06:41; nubbins`: that any weird bullshit has to get approved by both [16:15]
trinque davout: yes that does seem to cover it clearly, though it could be argued that this fell under existing agreed division of responsibility [16:15]
davout asciilifeform: if claims are against addresses you can't assign intentions to them! [16:15]
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asciilifeform thing is, regardless of how this is settled, there was a catastrophic failure in 'protocol vs promise' land where bbet never nailed down what ~exactly~ bet winners are promised. [16:15]
davout trinque: see previous comment, approval was usually expressed after the fact, until it didn't [16:15]
asciilifeform so it will be defined retroactively. [16:16]
asciilifeform by davout. [16:16]
asciilifeform because he picked up the knife. [16:16]
* trinque nods [16:16]
trinque part of the lesson here is just how explicitly the parts of the agreement involving moving coin *must* be [16:16]
trinque *defined [16:16]
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asciilifeform trinque has it. [16:16]
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davout yep [16:17]
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trinque it was a contract between two parties. [16:17]
davout nubbins`: i disagree [16:17]
davout heh [16:18]
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asciilifeform gotta have PROTOCOL [16:19]
asciilifeform as in, ALGORITHMICALLY evaluatable. [16:19]
asciilifeform otherwise - soup. [16:20]
asciilifeform !s buluceala [16:20]
assbot 11 results for 'buluceala' : [16:20]
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BingoBoingo ;;seen ciubob [16:24]
gribble I have not seen ciubob. [16:24]
BingoBoingo ;;seen eskimociu [16:24]
gribble I have not seen eskimociu. [16:24]
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jurov asciilifeform: this souds like "should reimplement bitbet with ether, referees just click a button, gas gets released algoritmically, no possibility of human error" [16:24]
jurov (i surely misread you, but which part here should have been algoritmized?) [16:24]
davout jurov: aren't gas and ether two different things? [16:24]
jurov that was just malapropismetaphor, i'm interested what would alf algoritmize here [16:24]
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asciilifeform << it is very easy to 'plan' in hindsight. [16:24]
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asciilifeform 'if i knew where i'd fall, i'dve put something soft down' - ru proverb [16:24]
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assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 19:12:27; nubbins`: doesn't put enough forethought / planning into things [16:24]
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asciilifeform jurov: i did not propose to ~automate~ bbet [16:25]
asciilifeform jurov: but merely to ~specify~ what it means for 'bbet owes' and 'bbet pays its debt' [16:25]
asciilifeform i.e. does it mean 'pays from this here addr to that there at time t' [16:25]
asciilifeform or something else. [16:25]
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asciilifeform so that a bitcoin node can calculate whether it in fact happened. [16:25]
asciilifeform when asked to. [16:25]
asciilifeform y'know, a ~machine~. [16:26]
asciilifeform instead of a buncha rabbis. [16:26]
asciilifeform or rabbi from neighbouring shtetl [16:26]
kakobrekla < this is an interesting q. the second 17 btc was mistakenly sent in bbet name, a mistake for which mp should be liable for. [16:26]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 18:59:09; davout: asciilifeform: do you agree that, if the 17 btc mp sent a second time aren't billed to bbet, it follows that this second transaction can't come in deduction of bbet liabilities to bettors/addresses? [16:26]
jurov such as, bitbet to generate "yes" "no" and "refund" transactions in advance and merely publishes one when time comes? [16:26]
asciilifeform jurov: such as. [16:27]
kakobrekla in other words: say if i accidental rm -rf the code and db, who is on the line here? [16:27]
jurov prolly impossible under current calculation rules [16:27]
asciilifeform jurov: yeah it wouldn't work with the time curve [16:28]
asciilifeform nor with existing bitcoin [16:28]
asciilifeform (where it does no one any good to prove that a tx was encoded at a certain time, the sender can still doublespend the funds) [16:28]
asciilifeform i was arguing a more modest point, that if bbet had ~specified~ what it promised to bettors, we would have no thread here. [16:29]
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asciilifeform the answer - would be obvious to anyone with half a neuron. [16:29]
asciilifeform whereas now it is not. [16:29]
asciilifeform the whole ~point~, i thought, of bitcoin, is to nuke the buluceala [16:30]
asciilifeform and replace it with mechanics. [16:30]
asciilifeform protocol, vs promise. [16:30]
jurov alternative mechanic brainstorm with current btc: all bets would be scooped to one address per proposition and winners would pe paid from there exclusively [16:31]
asciilifeform jurov: imho that would be an improvement [16:32]
asciilifeform and it would have cured this particular buluceala - it would be obvious who is paying whom for what at all times. [16:33]
asciilifeform but my understanding is that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla deliberately did not build it this way [16:33]
asciilifeform ( i have nfi why ) [16:33]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu has said that he intends to play the 'all coin is fungible and unidentifiable ' etc. game. which is fine. but what i don't grasp is how it is possible to craft hard record of debt and repayment without some hook on which to hang them. [16:34]
asciilifeform how does creditor know he was paid by debtor? how does debtor know he paid creditor ? [16:35]
PeterL jurov, wouldn't it be easier, rather than doing two transactions (sweep, then distribute) to just do a single? (bets are used to pay winnings, the 1%fee to a bbet company address) [16:35]
jurov PeterL: these tx would be BIG [16:35]
asciilifeform jurov: so long as <= 1MB, fine! [16:36]
jurov and 1% fees spammy [16:36]
PeterL is it really that much bigger than the current version? don't they already do all payout in one txn? [16:36]
PeterL what do you mean 1% fee spammy, that is what they take as commision [16:37]
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kakobrekla asciilifeform there was 1 tx per 1 resolved bet that included all the winners with respective sums - i guess this was deemed sufficient proof [16:38]
kakobrekla asciilifeform but it was not written in an explicit way on site [16:38]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: aha! [16:39]
asciilifeform so then. [16:39]
kakobrekla if one was interested on which tx that was - would need to look for that tx in the winners addresses history and establish it from there [16:39]
asciilifeform ill-specified agreements lead to one thing, [16:39]
asciilifeform a fella with a long, sharp knife, [16:40]
asciilifeform called in, to saw the baby in half. [16:40]
kakobrekla whut? [16:40]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: king solomon's tale [16:40]
kakobrekla im aware of that one i just dont see it here [16:40]
asciilifeform it means that it is not obvious whether the bettors were in fact partially paid [16:41]
asciilifeform or merely 'graciously donated to.' [16:41]
asciilifeform (and if so, by whom) [16:41]
asciilifeform whereas if spec had been 'winners will receive C coins on addr A from addr B at time T if condition Q' then there would be no puzzle. [16:42]
kakobrekla the thing is, i was in charge of x, he was in charge of y. a part of y was 'delivery of bitcoin to winning addresses' which, by mp claims, was done wrongfully (hence the charge) [16:43]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: then [16:45]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 15:43:19; asciilifeform: tomorrow i trip over a cable, fall on a button, accidentally fire pistol, the bullet hits another button, sends him 90 btc. [16:45]
asciilifeform the counter-argument seems to be that they were somehow 'not really paid by bbet' [16:45]
asciilifeform which imho is poppycock [16:46]
asciilifeform because if tx-a had never happened, they would-have-been-paid-by-bbet [16:46]
kakobrekla the question is wrong. you owe him 100, you send 200 and blame the inanimate fucking object. [16:46]
asciilifeform no. [16:46]
asciilifeform i would blame him if the next day he still says that i owe 100. [16:46]
kakobrekla im not sure we are talking about the same thing here [16:47]
asciilifeform regardless of how davout settles this, you gotta have a consistent algebra of debt. [16:47]
asciilifeform or you get buluceala and chaos. [16:48]
kakobrekla - see and to quote: In order to be able to offer BTC business you must at a minimum be able to correctly and safely handle payments. [16:50]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 19:21:24; kakobrekla: < this is an interesting q. the second 17 btc was mistakenly sent in bbet name, a mistake for which mp should be liable for. [16:50]
assbot So you think you're going to start a Bitcoin business, right? ... ( ) [16:50]
assbot So you think you're going to start a Bitcoin business, right? ... ( ) [16:50]
jurov nubbins`: no, he proposes strictly determined flow of bitcoins through bitbet [16:51]
jurov this can maybe even be abstracted to whole double or triple point accounting [16:52]
jurov that every account in the accounting should have its own btc address [16:52]
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hanbot and it did not use that to settle later claims << so when actual operator error occurred, mircea_popescu ate it, and your reaction is basically "hey, if he can pay for that, he should pay for this unrelated problem too! let's him pay for everything!", and this amidst weeks of bitching about "bad faith"? [16:56]
hanbot the fucking gall seriously. [16:56]
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jurov yes, fucking gall seriously, sending zerofee tx for ANY reason :) [16:58]
kakobrekla and if i delete the bitbet code is mp going to do half the coding? [16:58]
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kakobrekla and im not saying his job was easy - hence did not want to handle deposits from day 1 [17:03]
kakobrekla but if you can go around losing bitcoins as you please without consequences the whole thing is, how do you say, moot [17:04]
jurov kakobrekla hanbot is trying to explain to everyone that mp, by covering operator error and covering other expenses, earned the moral right to sometimes shift the bill to the shareholders as he deems fit [17:09]
jurov and how and whys of this is not to be discussed in any shape or form, to avoid upsetting things [17:10]
kakobrekla and im trying to explain that i should be paying for everything im liable for and he should be paying for everything he is liable for. [17:12]
kakobrekla but this clearly no longer is the case in #b-a [17:13]
jurov well, if you made coding error resulting in 18BTC loss, pushing it to shareholders as "cost of doing business with C machines" would be perfectly fine [17:17]
kakobrekla too bad i realize this only now, otherwise would have made such error more often. [17:18]
jurov we learn every day. [17:18]
danielpbarron << not improvement. breaks bbet as a mixer. [17:18]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 19:26:54; jurov: alternative mechanic brainstorm with current btc: all bets would be scooped to one address per proposition and winners would pe paid from there exclusively [17:18]
PeterL ddoes bitbet need to be a mixer? [17:19]
asciilifeform if we're subscribing to the 'all coin is fungible' religion, then mixers are a heresy. [17:19]
danielpbarron no reason it shouldn't be. the above proposition fixes a non-problem [17:19]
asciilifeform or breaks a non-feature. [17:20]
kakobrekla bbl [17:20]
BingoBoingo ddoes bitbet need to be a mixer? << It was a cool side effect [17:30]
hanbot jurov> kakobrekla hanbot is trying to explain to everyone << no dude. i'm trying to point out to YOU that YOU are abusing established good faith. [17:30]
jurov well, then i utterly don't get it [17:32]
asciilifeform waiwut? [17:34]
deedbot- [Daniel P. Barron] A well-ordered family. - [17:38]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4131 @ 0.00044447 = 1.8361 BTC [+] [17:40]
hanbot jurov if i got plastered and proceeded to crash my car into your house last week and paid for the damages without question, and this week i'm carjacked and hit your house again, you may not use the fact that i happily paid for the former incident as proof that i should pay for the latter, and you may *especially* not attempt to use it as proof while complaining about my "bad faith" [17:40]
PeterL BingoBoingo latest qntra s/experience/experienced [17:41]
BingoBoingo ty [17:41]
jurov hanbot i want first and foremost to clarify the point that mp, by mucking with zerofee tx, left the car unlocked overnight in dark alley [17:47]
jurov which fact he vehementhly denies and bullshits around, straining MY good will in the process [17:47]
asciilifeform reactor test? [17:48]
asciilifeform ( i still have nfi WHY he send a 0fee ! ) [17:48]
jurov so, what is he going to test next time? and how would i know hw wont decide do to bill it against me? [17:48]
jurov *he won't [17:49]
davout <<< not a problem per se [17:51]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 19:31:01; jurov: PeterL: these tx would be BIG [17:51]
PeterL asciilifeform mpb apparently calculated his transaction did not need one, it was wrong [17:53]
asciilifeform davout: it might be problem, if some clever fella sends the 1MB tx with 0fee... [17:53]
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PeterL if mp would share mpb txn-fee setting algorithm, then you could say why [17:54]
davout <<< this! [17:55]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 20:14:39; asciilifeform: if we're subscribing to the 'all coin is fungible' religion, then mixers are a heresy. [17:55]
asciilifeform now, i can see running a mixer from pure profit motive, like an atheist might run a kosher butcher shop [17:57]
asciilifeform but not if it gets in the way of his main business [17:58]
asciilifeform imho sacrificing anything worthwhile 'because it will break mixer' is lunacy. [17:58]
danielpbarron the thing proposed isn't worthwile [18:00]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: as i understand, it was proposed as to one possible solution to formalizing the promise made by bbet when a bet is made. [18:03]
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asciilifeform danielpbarron: and if you do not think it needs formalizing, 'we could only all agree if we all saw the light' (WHICH LIGHT?!@!!) - you are gravely mistaken. [18:04]
danielpbarron look at the bet page for a resolved bet. You'll see that BitBet claims how much it has sent and to which address it has been sent. This is sufficient for agreement. [18:06]
asciilifeform so why should it not claim the doublesend as part of what was owed ? [18:07]
mircea_popescu le log. [18:07]
danielpbarron sure it doesn't fit in with your retro-actively claiming the double payment was actually a partial early payment of other bets.. [18:07]
asciilifeform what, precisely, was promised, that contradicts this, danielpbarron ? [18:07]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: or, rephrase the question, between whom and whom did the debt exist ? [18:07]
danielpbarron the pages for those other bets do not display the correct amounts... no? [18:07]
asciilifeform and what was agreed upon as 'settlement' ? [18:07]
asciilifeform did the settlement formally include an originating addr for bbet ? [18:08]
asciilifeform kakobrekla tells us that it never did. [18:08]
mircea_popescu << you apparently need another hammer fucking five times ? [18:08]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 18:03:06; asciilifeform: they were PAID. [18:08]
mircea_popescu what happened to that ? forgotten so soon ?! [18:08]
asciilifeform 10 times! [18:08]
asciilifeform i;ll take the ball-peen plox [18:08]
mircea_popescu yes but you can't simply be argued out of a position then come back with it two hours later. [18:09]
mircea_popescu makes one thing he's wasting his time with it. [18:09]
mircea_popescu you realise this sort of argument is actually a very highly skilled, expensive sort of job. [18:09]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i argued self into the position that the original system was ill-defined [18:09]
asciilifeform and ergo broken. [18:09]
mircea_popescu everything is broken in retrospect. [18:09]
asciilifeform and that settlement is now a religious matter. [18:10]
asciilifeform as in, the answer is not producible from the axioms. [18:10]
mircea_popescu << own it is not in discussion here. "please make sure you aren't using it in any way that may conflict with our future notions of what it may mean" however is nonsense. [18:10]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 17:59:46; kakobrekla: from the first paragraph of the bb faq: The beneficiary address is never changed under any circumstances. Please make sure you own it! [18:10]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform your notion that anything but "religious matters" exists is quaint and endearing, i guess, but of no practical value or import. [18:11]
asciilifeform fact remains, this whole thing could have been an algorithmic question, but now is rabbinical. [18:11]
asciilifeform because folks wouldn't nail down their axioms. [18:12]
mircea_popescu yes, the code could have been more bloated [18:12]
asciilifeform and yes, i fully expect rabbi to say that ~everything is rabbinical question~ aha. [18:12]
mircea_popescu that doesn't result in better security, but does result in more complex rabinic arguments down the road. [18:12]
asciilifeform when done by idiots, yes. [18:12]
mircea_popescu it's fascinating that in one field you'd make EXACTLY the choices you unerstand to be wrong in the other. [18:12]
mircea_popescu as if you'd have decided where to eat and where to shit or somesuch. [18:13]
asciilifeform when done correctly - no. we don't sit here and argue about how the modular exponentiations came out. [18:13]
mircea_popescu that is a peculiarly convenient place. not all places are like that. [18:13]
mircea_popescu sure, if the world were a spherical chicken, etc. [18:13]
asciilifeform my whole mission on planet3 is to multiply 'the places like that.' [18:13]
mircea_popescu ie, nuke it ? [18:14]
mircea_popescu places like that are few and far between for good reason. [18:14]
mircea_popescu they're boring, for one, and actually unlivable, which is the same thing. [18:14]
asciilifeform we don't live in the water mains [18:14]
asciilifeform but like'em nevertheless. [18:14]
asciilifeform and yes, inside of a water pipe it is very boring. [18:15]
hanbot jurov what you've got is neither a point nor a fact but a contention, and while it may inform your opinion on what your own or other people's actions should be, that is ALL IT CAN DO; it does not in any way grant you the ability to use established good faith thusly. [18:15]
jurov how do i "use established good faith thusly", again? [18:16]
mircea_popescu << you were. [18:16]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 18:20:49; asciilifeform: note that i am not arguing that this is a moral obligation [18:16]
asciilifeform was i? [18:16]
mircea_popescu yes. [18:16]
hanbot jurov [18:17]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 19:51:30; hanbot: and it did not use that to settle later claims << so when actual operator error occurred, mircea_popescu ate it, and your reaction is basically "hey, if he can pay for that, he should pay for this unrelated problem too! let's him pay for everything!", and this amidst weeks of bitching about "bad faith"? [18:17]
asciilifeform well my argument was 'in order for bbet paying them X to be bbet's obligation, they oughta HAVE paid back the double.' [18:17]
mircea_popescu jesus fuck look at that crap. i'm done reading this log, wtf, still with the idiots talking ? [18:17]
asciilifeform apparently all of us but mircea_popescu are idiots ? [18:18]
mircea_popescu i'm not going to read further logs, at all, for as long as nubbins` can speak into them. [18:18]
mircea_popescu anyone wants something to me, say it when i'm around. [18:18]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: y'know you could kick him. [18:18]
asciilifeform if you felt like it. [18:18]
mircea_popescu but otherwise i've just nullrouted log.b-a [18:18]
asciilifeform l0l! [18:19]
asciilifeform isn't a lord entitled to a formal lowering into pederasty ? [18:19]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform get lost with the bs. i'm going to do your job ? not fucking interested. you wanna talk to him, do, enjoy, who am i to get in the way of idiocy. [18:19]
mircea_popescu entitled to whatever the fuck you wish. [18:19]
asciilifeform i suppose this is yet another thing that we never specified. [18:19]
mircea_popescu i'm not however your motherfather, to support you no matter where your head goes. [18:20]
asciilifeform (what happens when lords a,b,c hate p,q,r,s and wont talk) [18:20]
mircea_popescu no matter of hate. [18:20]
asciilifeform in churches this is called 'schism' [18:20]
asciilifeform and leads to moar churchez. [18:20]
mircea_popescu oh get the fuck outta here. [18:20]
mircea_popescu not a matter of hate or anything fo the sort. [18:20]
hanbot this "lord" shit is pretty ridiculous by now eh. [18:20]
asciilifeform hanbot: i did not invent it [18:20]
mircea_popescu hanbot i;m no longer going to be using it, no. [18:20]
mircea_popescu it is nice and good to wish to turn some kids into some men. but the wishing does not do the turning, and they all got toys to play with so - there it goes. [18:21]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: on this i must agree. it ~was~ ill-specified [18:21]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it is the priviledge of the great to try and raise the crowd ; it is the priviledge of the crowd to prove that this can not be done. very well specified, and working as intended. [18:22]
mircea_popescu schism, listen to him go. [18:22]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 1st thing that always gets raised, when you raise a crowd, is its opinion of self. [18:22]
asciilifeform sadly. [18:22]
mircea_popescu yawell, fuck it. [18:23]
mircea_popescu at least if i throw money at whores i get a dance. [18:23]
jurov hanbot actually, i was NOT writing it in that context, it was in context of whether mispayments were ever considered against future bet winnings. so you did yourself disservice by connecting these things, and it's actually interesting you keep doing it [18:23]
asciilifeform anyway i'm not personally mentally invested in any of this, and won't shed so much as nanoliter of tear . [18:23]
asciilifeform i like mircea_popescu because he's a fella who tips pencils. [18:24]
jurov yes keep assuring us [18:24]
asciilifeform and not because he 'raises us to lords' or what. [18:24]
BingoBoingo In other poor-a-lulz [18:25]
trinque this pissing in the face of people who try to create worlds gives me zero cause for optimism about the future. [18:26]
trinque ^ slave culture [18:26]
mircea_popescu jurov i want you to explain your notion of "some precedent". use clear language and be sure you can stick with its meaning. [18:26]
jurov precedent of whether mispayments were ever considered against future bet winnings [18:27]
mircea_popescu let me point out to you that bitbet came down over my realisation that this is how you lot think. stop fucking thinking like this before i have to cut more heads. [18:28]
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jurov and i actually mentioned the "good faith" question like 3 times in two days. and i don't like to repeat myself. were not for hanbot, it would be well safely buried in the logs by now. [18:29]
jurov if that's what you want? [18:29]
mircea_popescu i'm sorry, is what i want ? [18:30]
jurov for me not to "use established good faith thusly" or some such [18:31]
jurov nfi, actually [18:31]
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mircea_popescu that didn't make any sense. [18:31]
hanbot jesus fuck jurov, were you bitching about bad faith or not? were you using the fact mp ate a loss before as a justification for why he should do it again or not? [18:31]
jurov 1. yes 2. no [18:31]
jurov re:2 i was being IRONIC. and waited whether you take the bait [18:32]
hanbot aha. well, 1's abuse, 2's...oh ffs. [18:32]
mircea_popescu irony in irc! good lord! [18:32]
jurov [18:33]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 20:04:38; jurov: kakobrekla hanbot is trying to explain to everyone that mp, by covering operator error and covering other expenses, earned the moral right to sometimes shift the bill to the shareholders as he deems fit [18:33]
* asciilifeform realizes that NOBODY agrees with asciilifeform on > 1 piece of this. but unsurprise. [18:36]
asciilifeform (e.g., i never saw the ' mircea_popescu ought to personally eat the expense ' angle ) [18:36]
jurov asciilifeform: you know, hanbot is trained to see such angles :D [18:37]
asciilifeform jurov: i have nfi. [18:38]
trinque the petulance in here lately is revolting. [18:38]
asciilifeform and not only i have nfi, but i sorta wish i had taken vacation to the jungle for past 3 wks. [18:39]
asciilifeform and not logged in. [18:39]
trinque why? everyone got to satisfy his emotional needs, feel a part of the process, get his voice heard. [18:39]
trinque it was a great time [18:39]
asciilifeform mno. [18:40]
jurov very ungreat time [18:40]
asciilifeform trinque: stage is set for various folks doing smashingly dumb things because 'would otherwise lose face.' [18:40]
asciilifeform the only people for whom this is 'great time' is: the enemy. [18:41]
trinque I couldn't agree more with that. [18:41]
asciilifeform we are pretty much reenacting republical side of spanish civil war here. [18:41]
asciilifeform *republican [18:41]
jurov well, i feel i'd lose face either way [18:41]
asciilifeform i dun evenhave a face. [18:41]
trinque to invoke my upbringing... y'all ever heard of another man's business? [18:44]
asciilifeform i bet ninjashitgun & co are rubbing their cocks raw with glee reading the last 3 wks of logz. [18:44]
trinque maybe time to let the case be handled by davout and move on to better things [18:44]
trinque lest we continue to look like emotionally crippled morons [18:44]
asciilifeform i cannot speak for others, but i'm not particularly concerned with what i look like. [18:46]
asciilifeform if i'm an imbecile, i will remain one whether 'looking like it' or not. [18:46]
asciilifeform if anyone forgot why i'm here, [18:47]
asciilifeform it is because mircea_popescu invited me. and i only stayed because he works with me on planeteering tech. [18:47]
asciilifeform (and along the way teaches me useful stuff.) [18:48]
trinque that amounts to "I just want to" and saying the world is somebody else's problem [18:48]
trinque and this world fucking sucks [18:48]
asciilifeform well no, planeteering is a business for many folk. [18:49]
asciilifeform terraform the mournful pesthole, one square metre at a time [18:49]
asciilifeform trinque: i bring it up because i reject the accusation of partaking in the emotional wreck. [18:51]
asciilifeform i do not have strong emotions about bbet, or the participating folks. [18:51]
asciilifeform and by commenting, was fulfilling what i see as my obligation to work in the forum. [18:51]
asciilifeform and lay out what i see as logical case, etc. [18:52]
asciilifeform precisely the opposite of 'i just want to x, leave me be.' [18:53]
trinque I can see your perspective there [18:53]
trinque I reject the notion of having no face entirely [18:53]
trinque ^ see, this is fucking emotional nonsense [18:53]
trinque and serves merely to satisfy something within nubbins` [18:54]
trinque given he has no business with any of these companies, he's what? serving the public? [18:55]
trinque there is no public here. [18:55]
asciilifeform nubbins`: if tomorrow mircea_popescu decides that i am an imbecile and never speaks to me again, i will build exactly same items. and even offer him free sample! [18:55]
trinque the way one forgets and falls back into the patterns of his youth.. it almost makes one believe in danielpbarron's demons :p [18:56]
* trinque goes to cleanse the vile spirits elsewhere [18:56]
jurov trinque you aren't at least rubbed the wrong way by mp's approach? [18:58]
asciilifeform nubbins`: what am i then. in what box do i live in, in your cosmos ? [18:59]
jurov just to complete the picture, i had to privately calm down several people who were utterly freaked out :( [18:59]
asciilifeform nubbins`: and here i was thinking i could at least achieve championship as arse. [19:00]
BingoBoingo [19:00]
assbot ... ( ) [19:00]
asciilifeform nubbins`: so far the point of greatest disagreement between him and i is whether to talk to nubbins` ! [19:03]
danielpbarron i really wish you wouldn't [19:04]
trinque nubbins`: you're thoroughly dishonest. [19:09]
trinque !rate -3 nubbins` treats the forum like reddit, behaves like a fool [19:11]
assbot -3 is not registered in WoT. [19:11]
trinque !rate nubbins` -3 treats the forum like reddit, behaves like a fool [19:11]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [19:11]
danielpbarron yay! [19:11]
trinque !v assbot:trinque.rate.nubbins`.-3:5140039d607c3f6511a9c76ed0a7086f0aa4bf6ff7012dfc451f209d543b97aa [19:11]
assbot Successfully added a rating of -3 for nubbins` with note: treats the forum like reddit, behaves like a fool [19:11]
danielpbarron !gettrust assbot nubbins` [19:11]
assbot Trust relationship from user assbot to user nubbins`: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 6 via 14 connections. | | [19:11]
danielpbarron 6 more clicks [19:11]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: dun work this way. he's on the l1. [19:12]
danielpbarron we don't know this yet! [19:12]
trinque that's immutable is it? [19:12]
asciilifeform trinque: well it stays until manually knob turned [19:12]
trinque look at the way this guy plays to the crowd, like it's there, and it matters [19:13]
* trinque ignores nubbins` [19:13]
asciilifeform trinque: i suppose that if we imitate republican spain long enough, mp will take his ball and go home, and there will be no l1 etc. [19:13]
* joecool has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) [19:13]
asciilifeform i kinda wonder how this would be going down if we were using gossipd. [19:15]
asciilifeform clearly, graph would split, but into what. [19:16]
asciilifeform nubbins`: no middle. [19:18]
jurov we're not splitting,for most people here this discussion isn't enough to get nuclear [19:18]
asciilifeform jurov: thought was not about 'most people', but about mp [19:19]
danielpbarron those of you allowing nubbins` to rile you up are in the wrong, and it does nobody but "the enemy" to persist in pretending like there's still something to argue about [19:20]
danielpbarron does nobody any good* [19:20]
asciilifeform nubbins`: what i don't get is why you continue here, instead of opening a: [19:22]
asciilifeform #trotsky-assets [19:23]
asciilifeform write own arsebot (nubbot?) [19:23]
asciilifeform with own l1... [19:23]
asciilifeform etc [19:23]
trinque because he's fine leaving things in the state they are now [19:23]
trinque enjoys the shit [19:23]
* trinque wonders at walking asciilifeform through the mechanics of a troll [19:23]
asciilifeform trinque: i am beginning to see mp's pov on this, now. [19:24]
asciilifeform nubbins`: you can have'em with me in pm if it strikes your fancy. when i'm home, which is maybe 1.2 hr/day. hell, i still talk to vex! [19:24]
jurov trinque, danielpbarron: i am not fine with things, what do you think i can do? [19:24]
asciilifeform nubbins`: happy to hear. [19:25]
danielpbarron jurov, get fine with them already. You are wrong. [19:25]
asciilifeform nubbins`: but i can hardly picture that ~this~ is what it looks like. [19:25]
fluffypony nubbins`: I've added you to my Official 2016 T-shirt Printer List [19:26]
fluffypony ok you're the only one there [19:26]
fluffypony but still [19:26]
fluffypony you're on a list! [19:26]
jurov danielpbarron: do you have any idea how many times i heard that in my life? surely you must have did too, did you likewise obey them? [19:27]
danielpbarron no, most people never word it that way [19:27]
jurov so? [19:28]
jurov when they did word it right, you have obeyed? [19:28]
danielpbarron if they were right, yes [19:28]
danielpbarron I have had my mind changed by sound reasoning [19:29]
jurov i wish i got some sound reasoning here, too [19:32]
danielpbarron what's still bothering you? [19:32]
jurov it goes back long time to things like the wences lawsuit, i likened the situation to mpex having a sinkhole in the foyer [19:35]
jurov with label "whatever falls in, is donation to shareholders" [19:35]
danielpbarron !s wences lawsuit [19:36]
assbot 0 results for 'wences lawsuit' : [19:36]
jurov the rota thing [19:36]
punkman nubbins`: i actually didn't realize mp owned assbot << I thought kakobrekla owned assbot [19:37]
jurov wences sending rounded amoutn and the suing over fiduciary responisibility [19:37]
jurov *then siung [19:37]
jurov sorry: *wences sending rounded amount and then suing over fiduciary responsibility [19:37]
danielpbarron ah this [19:38]
assbot Case I - Wences vs MPEx, Breach of fiduciary duty on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:38]
danielpbarron what's the issue? MPEx says send X. Guy sends Y instead. [19:39]
jurov this was made deliberate by design and easy to avoid [19:39]
jurov i just can't run business that way [19:39]
danielpbarron so then don't use MPEx [19:39]
punkman considering everyone is using private addresses these days, I wonder if donations are still a thing [19:40]
jurov no actually i did what you're asking "maybe i'm wrong, get fine with it" [19:40]
jurov but this happened again and again, bitbet being last case [19:40]
danielpbarron punkman, indeed that might be why private addresses became a thing. account holders signing agreement that anything sent to that address gets credited to account. Since we know that there are side-contracts for the less-than-50-btc renewal of keys, this should be possible [19:41]
danielpbarron jurov, what happened again and again? people not following the rules? How is the a strike against the rule maker? [19:42]
jurov no, the very rules going against my values [19:43]
assbot Logged on 07-03-2016 13:32:31; danielpbarron: i'm not interested in bitcoin if he's not interested in it [19:43]
jurov and that not even for a good discernible reason [19:43]
danielpbarron so what then, you need to oust the current rule maker and then this place will be worth inhabiting? I think not. [19:43]
jurov you're under impression i'm trying to oust him? just by reminding him he may have done an error? [19:44]
danielpbarron you just said the rules go against your values, jurov ; not that he made an error [19:45]
* pete_dushenski (~pete_dush@unaffiliated/pete-dushenski/x-8158685) has joined #bitcoin-assets [19:46]
jurov the rules apparently is that if he claims that was not a mistake but mining cartel, that is beyond discussion. [19:46]
danielpbarron yes. that is true. [19:46]
* assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski [19:46]
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danielpbarron the only one who can violate an MPEx listing agreement is the non-MPEx party signing it [19:47]
danielpbarron which I think is made clear enough by the line about how it's the sole discression of MPEx to decide how to resolve issues [19:47]
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pete_dushenski asciilifeform: lol funny you should ask. i just came across a research paper on very much this topic the other day, which i've now uploaded on my site for posterity (and your consideration) : [19:49]
assbot ... ( ) [19:49]
* davout (~david@unaffiliated/davout) has joined #bitcoin-assets [19:49]
pete_dushenski it addresses exactly the "can i pick it up if it's dropped?" question [19:49]
pete_dushenski which afaicantell maps to the log discussion [19:50]
* assbot gives voice to davout [19:50]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: two bucks says that the miata owner is not the least bit displeased that two honies romped around in his ride. he's surely sorry he missed it! jealous wife, on the other hand... [19:51]
* pete_dushenski goes to look up used miatas... [19:52]
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* itkin (~itkin@unaffiliated/itkin) has joined #bitcoin-assets [19:52]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: The miata's just one of those vehicles that looks worse than it should because of poor aesthetic direction on other motor vehicles [19:59]
pete_dushenski when all the world's an obeast, the skinny girl looks like a freak, aha [20:00]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: It's just a shame they've stopped making new Miatas [20:01]
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pete_dushenski nubbins`: you must be on mp's "nobutter4u" slavegirl diet [20:02]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: twas but a flesh wound (ie. name change) [20:03]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: No. The most recent thing They've attached the name to in the US is clearly not actually a Miata. I'm not invested enough in the question though to make a hard determination on when the newer vehicles stopped becoming miatas [20:04]
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* assbot gives voice to mrottenkolber [20:08]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: purist would argue that NA (1st ge) was the only true miata, but that ND (4th gen, MY2016) is a strong return to form. [20:08]
mrottenkolber I know you are all gonna hate this, but for what its worth, I got some Git/V interop going: [20:09]
assbot GitHub - eugeneia/vgit: Git commands for V interoperability. ... ( ) [20:09]
pete_dushenski nubbins`: big data ftw [20:09]
mrottenkolber Should be enough to produce vdiffs and signatures from git repos, for whoever might want that, and god forbid, press “v signed” branches from Git (ducks). [20:11]
mrottenkolber Relevan: [20:13]
assbot Logged on 18-01-2016 16:15:45; ascii_butugychag: btw i hope everybody understands that life with 'v' is always going to resemble dark age blood sports like cvs, etc. far more than modern greased poles (e.g., 'git') [20:13]
jurov mrottenkolber: it's fine, as long as this won't cause V to take up complexity from git [20:15]
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asciilifeform mrottenkolber: you are, i'm afraid, wasting your time. [20:31]
asciilifeform i created v specifically as an anti-git. [20:32]
asciilifeform !rate nubbins` -1 TILT. see also [20:38]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [20:38]
assbot Logged on 08-03-2016 18:12:51; asciilifeform: nubbins`: dead pilots in the '30s-'40s were sometimes found with the control joystick literally torn from its moorings. they pulled against jammed flight surfaces and physically destroyed the stick. it did not help. [20:38]
* mrottenkolber has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) [20:38]
asciilifeform !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.nubbins`.-1:7a5b27d060de53172fc3ed4fd6bffd76e9ca7031faf2054fd3007dfdd9cd81da [20:38]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for nubbins` from 1 to -1 with note: TILT. see also [20:38]
asciilifeform sorry nubs you really earned this. [20:38]
asciilifeform mp may have dropped a cig, and lit the forest on fire. some of us tried to help stamp out the flames. others - fanned them. [20:39]
asciilifeform i may not count for much, but will not countenance the fanning. [20:40]
mircea_popescu mk, so upon consideration, the issue here is that me nulling the logs is at best a stopgap, and no sort of long term or tenable solution. there's certainly no sense in me continuing to pour words into a bag i won't read the logs of, wtf. [20:40]
mircea_popescu while it is incontrivable that the lordship has failed utterly, and is in no sense the guarantor of keeping spammers and idiots away from the forum as intended (youhadonejob.png!!!), that is a distinct and separate problem from what to do with #b-a. [20:40]
mircea_popescu reviewing that, i can either 1) log as mod and ban the schmuck or else 2) ask kakobrekla to alter the l1. [20:40]
mircea_popescu 1 has the manifest disadvantage that it is an exact replay of the bitbet drama. it may be argued that it is "clean" and "elegant" and "all i wanted was to protect you, son", which is so much idiotic patriarchical nonsense it makes my skin crawl - and thus let's extend kakobrekla in public the same sympathies extended in private ; [20:40]
mircea_popescu 2 requires the man who just saw the product of his not-inconsequential efforts die over "not doing what mp says, with money" have to choose whether to do what mp says... but with people, this time. we did in fact start this channel together, just like bitbet, and he did do a lot of infrastructure work here, just as there. so... what do ? [20:40]
mircea_popescu i dunno, but the fact remains this nonsense can't continue, if for no reason then because i won't be any part of the most recent attempt of fiat world to reclaim the republic. so for the sake of variety, let's go with : kakobrekla, you willing to take nubbins off the l1 ? [20:40]
shinohai aha [20:40]
* asciilifeform bbl [20:40]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: fwiw i just finally barfed. [20:40]
mircea_popescu funny how that works! [20:41]
asciilifeform there are limits even to my iron stomach. [20:41]
asciilifeform (which needs to be refueled, bbl) [20:41]
danielpbarron !gettrust assbot nubbins` [20:43]
assbot Trust relationship from user assbot to user nubbins`: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 3 via 13 connections. | | [20:43]
danielpbarron only 3 more clicks. That's two changing their mind, or 3 making theirs up [20:44]
pete_dushenski after skipping half of today's lengthy logs myself, i'm all too happy to do my part [20:46]
pete_dushenski !unrate nubbins` [20:46]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [20:46]
danielpbarron aw that's only a single click, but better than nothing [20:46]
pete_dushenski !v assbot:pete_dushenski.unrate.nubbins`:184255cc92498ebb12d4e0df4b5f9aa78e0552304d9cbfd8fb95dc8a5ea07d61 [20:46]
assbot Successfully unrated nubbins` [20:46]
pete_dushenski anyways, my rating him made no goddam sense to begin with [20:47]
pete_dushenski but hey, i was young [20:48]
danielpbarron if just one more switches from positive to negative we can see once and for all if a lord can be !down'd [20:48]
mircea_popescu and to be perfectly clear - it ~was~ my stupid fucking idea of seeding the lordship off the stats page on roughly the basis of activity that got us in this mess. [20:48]
mircea_popescu TOO FUCKING SOON OMFG. [20:48]
pete_dushenski lol more than a few of us probably also thought we'd be riding the btc-waves to being deca+millionaires by 2016. this bitcoin thing is taking far longer than i, at least, had anticipated. [20:51]
trinque better to learn to be a man first than suddenly have so much gunpowder [20:52]
* trinque departs til tomorrow [20:52]
pete_dushenski cheers mate [20:53]
pete_dushenski but ya, being as rich as i thought i ~wanted~ to be by this point would not doubt cause as many problems as i imagined it'd solve. besides, what fucking problems ?? [20:54]
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ben_vulpes pete_dushenski: 2016?! [21:06]
pete_dushenski gavin-moore's law of infinitely straight lines said so! [21:07]
pete_dushenski though i admit it's a bit strange that we're not on 19ghz boxes in the back seats of our autonomous cars... [21:08]
* pete_dushenski to his non-autonomous car to take a cruise this fine spring evening [21:10]
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ben_vulpes stand by [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.nubbins`:00f2127a2991435e3ba1d96b7c10ef34ad188cdeb31d7b5975794c571b5bcc31 [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.n6:688fc36e5d4d7348113e39b60c8097af5de60e92c5fbd11b1ac12ecb77d5632d [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.isaackl:e4966403c4101d6118f24937200848e47198c5871973ed2b87e64640d3a5d7db [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.nanotube:ff635f099bd2ab99cf94f31b1b5fbbf258a03e6775158f2f39f2f894abdcbe81 [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.marteen:284f8ee26c182606381be14a93a1d2377944448b3ed7ff7377176fe280a5a1ec [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.elio19:1cf1df85fc805ec184032d3943f9688a5c3b3d8ad191fc6054f279927ecb95d7 [21:26]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.pinkposixpxe:3e9dd969c64b8c2fb94dff83aa81764dc122af73f170681a4dfeb1d21d239a28 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.donpdonp:c22bec43c9ef6e56a759547e407491ae252989545a1be842dc18cde3bac0afc0 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.jorgepasada:3077e865f06aceb398f1bac41552bb3cb29d44df3dcb5fafe5439bdef67f6f87 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.lampelina:a6e93b67684ddec57d72ae495b4198d5053ed438990d52e4c258f0214c5a7134 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.duffer1:62369e69eb1e572b71149d1c5633087a5d0c956aa944492b47934290dbf71a50 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.moiety:30a286debb7e92b2ea5bbdac80f6a02515a2f376675ab1067b0d961bac6cbcbc [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.chetty.10:0bbead18d0bb673a6b82e088c22d0b54862c212bfd35ab51298f54f2c4489892 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.jurov.4:ed170a0f767f457de4646fe02ba6837af5bb8436e374d3e13cca12a6b4d84a54 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.trinque.4:28ec54047cb4ffa5232a4fed6821875721cb4bfff52bab3c0f94776d90e36162 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.rye.2:c3864667d69331c3ef21c95033855074c240140fd0082bc88908269899546b60 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.davout.4:9f81e6bda6d377cbaae3ab40fd033e61a62f85851db1779deb44e25ae8cbef28 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.phf.3:42aa449bb378e2feb8071ddd89679632cb5864c9878aa0ef802f1d3fd7c9ec9d [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.pete_dushenski.1:32d4e07d5e4f0c2c482c2232734c5fefb5d97343fb690b93c90e378d62869594 [21:27]
ben_vulpes assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.bingoboingo.3:2af26f300154713dcdf24797ec6a4201e78f97a86384c110bad676dab25b4aac [21:27]
kakobrekla you forgot the !v [21:27]
kakobrekla spam again [21:27]
* CrazyTruthYakDDS (uid67551@gateway/web/ has joined #bitcoin-assets [21:28]
kakobrekla ben_vulpes ? [21:29]
ben_vulpes hahaha. [21:31]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.nubbins`:00f2127a2991435e3ba1d96b7c10ef34ad188cdeb31d7b5975794c571b5bcc31 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated nubbins` [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.n6:688fc36e5d4d7348113e39b60c8097af5de60e92c5fbd11b1ac12ecb77d5632d [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated n6 [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.isaackl:e4966403c4101d6118f24937200848e47198c5871973ed2b87e64640d3a5d7db [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated isaackl [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.nanotube:ff635f099bd2ab99cf94f31b1b5fbbf258a03e6775158f2f39f2f894abdcbe81 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated nanotube [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.marteen:284f8ee26c182606381be14a93a1d2377944448b3ed7ff7377176fe280a5a1ec [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated marteen [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.elio19:1cf1df85fc805ec184032d3943f9688a5c3b3d8ad191fc6054f279927ecb95d7 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated elio19 [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.pinkposixpxe:3e9dd969c64b8c2fb94dff83aa81764dc122af73f170681a4dfeb1d21d239a28 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated pinkposixpxe [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.donpdonp:c22bec43c9ef6e56a759547e407491ae252989545a1be842dc18cde3bac0afc0 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated donpdonp [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.jorgepasada:3077e865f06aceb398f1bac41552bb3cb29d44df3dcb5fafe5439bdef67f6f87 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated jorgepasada [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.lampelina:a6e93b67684ddec57d72ae495b4198d5053ed438990d52e4c258f0214c5a7134 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated lampelina [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.duffer1:62369e69eb1e572b71149d1c5633087a5d0c956aa944492b47934290dbf71a50 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated duffer1 [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.moiety:30a286debb7e92b2ea5bbdac80f6a02515a2f376675ab1067b0d961bac6cbcbc [21:32]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.chetty.10:0bbead18d0bb673a6b82e088c22d0b54862c212bfd35ab51298f54f2c4489892 [21:32]
assbot Successfully unrated moiety [21:32]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for chetty from 2 to 10 with note: will never sin again [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.jurov.4:ed170a0f767f457de4646fe02ba6837af5bb8436e374d3e13cca12a6b4d84a54 [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for jurov from 3 to 4. [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.trinque.4:28ec54047cb4ffa5232a4fed6821875721cb4bfff52bab3c0f94776d90e36162 [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for trinque from 3 to 4. [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.rye.2:c3864667d69331c3ef21c95033855074c240140fd0082bc88908269899546b60 [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for rye from 3 to 2. [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.davout.4:9f81e6bda6d377cbaae3ab40fd033e61a62f85851db1779deb44e25ae8cbef28 [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for davout from 3 to 4. [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.phf.3:42aa449bb378e2feb8071ddd89679632cb5864c9878aa0ef802f1d3fd7c9ec9d [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for phf from 1 to 3. [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.pete_dushenski.1:32d4e07d5e4f0c2c482c2232734c5fefb5d97343fb690b93c90e378d62869594 [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for pete_dushenski from 2 to 1. [21:33]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.bingoboingo.3:2af26f300154713dcdf24797ec6a4201e78f97a86384c110bad676dab25b4aac [21:33]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for bingoboingo from 2 to 3. [21:33]
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ben_vulpes sorry kakobrekla, was that me?! [21:34]
kakobrekla no it was me [21:34]
kakobrekla << haha! how pretentious. its almost as entertaining as the miners konspiraci. anyway, unlike bitbet which was a shared toy between us and was damaged beyond repair by your foolish actions for which you dont care to take responsibility (but will be, on the end, enforecd upon you), let the record state #b-a is solely my creation and you inhabited the chan a week or so later. and yes, [21:35]
kakobrekla i made it inhabitable for some interesting folks with (the lack of) various rules and various perks. [21:35]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 23:35:31; mircea_popescu: 2 requires the man who just saw the product of his not-inconsequential efforts die over "not doing what mp says, with money" have to choose whether to do what mp says... but with people, this time. we did in fact start this channel together, just like bitbet, and he did do a lot of infrastructure work here, just as there. so... what do ? [21:35]
kakobrekla < and i actually suspect, given your recent reckless behaviour followed by destructive actions you have been compromised by that very same fiat system and are on a good way of dismantling the republic (simulate a world where mp admits a mistake and eats his own cooking and see how it compares to this) [21:36]
assbot Logged on 23-03-2016 23:35:36; mircea_popescu: i dunno, but the fact remains this nonsense can't continue, if for no reason then because i won't be any part of the most recent attempt of fiat world to reclaim the republic. so for the sake of variety, let's go with : kakobrekla, you willing to take nubbins off the l1 ? [21:36]
kakobrekla that being said, i believe b-a should be self regulating and not depended on what mp or kako thinks, the solution, already in effect, is: the condition to self-voice is no longer L1>0 || L2>0 but instead L1 + L2 > 0, which also goes along the notion that lordship no longer exists. the power is your hands now, people. [21:37]
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mod6 i got my red-dragon compiler book! [21:56]
mod6 you're all screwed now. [21:56]
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shinohai !unrate Zuardi [22:06]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [22:06]
shinohai !v assbot:shinohai.unrate.Zuardi:0a397c4756787bd7bd99499a09f39fb11bdc7dff7f4be552e2b70c6fa8e3ea37 [22:07]
assbot Successfully unrated Zuardi [22:07]
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asciilifeform 'Hard is it on earth, / with mighty whoredom; Axe-time, sword-time, / shields are sundered, Wind-time, wolf-time, / ere the world falls; Nor ever shall men / each other spare.' (the poetic edda, vol1) [23:40]
mircea_popescu i'm about as interested in participating in democracy of any kind or description as you can imagine. #b-a existed to any degree and in any sense for as long as it wasn't that. it can go back to being #okcupid or whatever the fuck else the "power of the people" warrants. [23:56]
kakobrekla not really a democracy but there is no more immutability for l1 [23:58]
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