Forum logs for 21 Mar 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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asciilifeform !up zdm [00:12]
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zdm Hello [00:12]
asciilifeform who might you be, zdm ? [00:12]
zdm Just an internet stranger [00:13]
zdm Been reading a lot of loper-os.org posts [00:13]
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BingoBoingo https://archive.is/nSGUC [00:51]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8701 @ 0.00041886 = 3.6445 BTC [-] [02:46]
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BingoBoingo http://www.plateoftheday.com/food_blog/brownie.gif [03:55]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiTJKY ) [03:55]
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punkman http://www.polymagnet.com/polymagnets/ [04:09]
assbot Polymagnets - Correlated Magnetics ... ( http://bit.ly/22xRQyf ) [04:10]
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hanbot mod6 index idea could work, obvs hinges on whether i manage to organize something more precise/inclusive than a keyword grep'd put out. i'll look at it tomorrow/tues and report back. [04:20]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27950 @ 0.00041707 = 11.6571 BTC [-] [04:21]
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deedbot- [Qntra] Roger VERified Outlet Gets Into Ether Huffing - http://qntra.net/2016/03/roger-verified-outlet-gets-into-ether-huffing/ [04:42]
mircea_popescu hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ? [04:48]
mircea_popescu dunno that it'd fix anything per se, but perhaps give us the tools to better approach the problem ? dunno. [04:48]
mircea_popescu technically this exists already, actually, we could do tag-gossipd-cipher and then http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=%22tag-gossipd-cipher%22 [04:50]
assbot 0 results for '"tag-gossipd-cipher"' - #bitcoin-assets search [04:50]
BingoBoingo lol be praised http://qntra.net/2016/03/woe-getting-business-internet-a-challenge-in-heart-of-silicon-valley/#comment-49211 [04:51]
assbot Woe: Getting Business Internet A Challenge In Heart Of Silicon Valley | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/22rwiGN ) [04:51]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i have traveled to africa. unless one means specially designated experimental lab (some towns in south africa etc), internet connection is poor. [04:52]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: I cannot help the lulz that commenters bring, but I can appreciate them [04:53]
mircea_popescu tru. [04:53]
BingoBoingo Also in the latest qntra the Union flag as ether rag is apparently a srs thing, except they call it the "American" flag [04:57]
BingoBoingo fucking yankees [04:57]
BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [04:59]
gribble Current Blocks: 403600 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1615 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [04:59]
BingoBoingo ;;nethash [04:59]
gribble 1140007245.47 [04:59]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [04:59]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 407.04, vol: 2161.73180920 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.998, vol: 3253.80324 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 407.98, vol: 5531.21963537 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 400.01, vol: 2.5 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 412.206, vol: 22003.15730000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 407.9, vol: 866.4854354 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.166468, vol: 10.65217551 | Volume-weighted last average: 410.956904542 [04:59]
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deedbot- [Trilema] Slums of Beverly Hills - http://trilema.com/2016/slums-of-beverly-hills/ [05:46]
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BingoBoingo gribble seems a bit under the weather today [09:06]
BingoBoingo ;;goxlag [09:06]
gribble Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command. [09:06]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [09:06]
BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [09:06]
BingoBoingo ;;nethash [09:06]
gribble Current Blocks: 403624 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1591 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [09:06]
gribble 1134139562.46 [09:06]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 408.49, vol: 2712.98115715 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 411.373, vol: 4067.4134 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 408.44, vol: 5606.41583417 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 400.01, vol: 2.5 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 413.89005, vol: 21416.36470000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 408.807, vol: 949.43468092 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.885946, vol: 7.94305105 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message) [09:06]
BingoBoingo ;;more [09:06]
gribble 412.154645761 [09:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.NSA] 250000 @ 0.000085 = 21.25 BTC [-] [09:14]
assbot [MPEX] [S.NSA] 147392 @ 0.000085 = 12.5283 BTC [-] [09:17]
BingoBoingo !t m s.nsa [09:21]
assbot [MPEX:S.NSA] 1D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000085 (454671 shares, 38.65 BTC), 7D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000085 (454671 shares, 38.65 BTC), 30D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000086 (457671 shares, 38.90 BTC) [09:21]
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asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437054 <<< logz!1111 >>> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-12-2015#1336224 << the mega-thread re inqtel (cia-operated hedge fund) [09:40]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 07:04:35; punkman: http://www.polymagnet.com/polymagnets/ [09:40]
assbot Logged on 04-12-2015 04:06:08; asciilifeform: aaand this oddity, http://www.polymagnet.com [09:40]
* BingoBoingo just figured the polymagnet thing was jsut the new "broken glass" [09:50]
BingoBoingo But shittier [09:50]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437059 << fixing the search so it actually behaves sanely (EQUIVALENT TO GREP) would be almost as useful [09:50]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 07:43:11; mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ? [09:50]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: go buy and test, they are sold [09:51]
asciilifeform a hundy or so gets you a dozen kinds iirc [09:51]
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assbot [MPEX] [FN] [F.MPIF] 50000 @ 0.000209 = 10.45 BTC [-] [10:05]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437065 << usaschwitz contains an africa : vast expanse of martian wasteland ~nobody gives half a shit about. it also contains a westerneurope: buncha decayed overcivilized folk with excess money that 'has to be harvested back from them or hyperinflation comes'. each of these prison zones gets abysmal net pipe for own reason. [10:07]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 07:47:15; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i have traveled to africa. unless one means specially designated experimental lab (some towns in south africa etc), internet connection is poor. [10:07]
asciilifeform i live in the 'harvester'; BingoBoingo, i think - mars. [10:09]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437052 << no copro!111 l0l [10:11]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 06:49:38; BingoBoingo: http://www.plateoftheday.com/food_blog/brownie.gif [10:11]
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BingoBoingo asciilifeform: They are having a hard time hiding the recycling nowadays [10:19]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00041764 = 1.7541 BTC [+] [10:24]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: shouldn't debug.log be rotated? [10:29]
thestringpuller my debug.log file is now 200 megs [10:29]
thestringpuller manual process daily to rotate?!? [10:29]
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shinohai mv debug.log logs/$(date -d "today" +"%Y%m%d%H%M").log [10:34]
thestringpuller aha logrotate [10:37]
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shinohai http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ubuntubsd-first-release <<< I think I threw up a little when I read this. [10:53]
assbot UbuntuBSD Brings Ubuntu Atop The FreeBSD Kernel - Phoronix ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj8A88 ) [10:53]
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shinohai Marrying Ubuntu to anything makes me slightly queasy. [11:23]
BingoBoingo !b 2 [11:26]
assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/25N0KYV.txt ) [11:26]
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assbot [35/100] "What is Bitcoin?" silkscreened posters [UPDATED DESIGN FOR 2016] ... ( http://bit.ly/1ScXeSA ) [11:36]
mircea_popescu actually ubuntu sounds like a pretty decent name for the chicks BingoBoingo links. [11:42]
shinohai lol [11:42]
mircea_popescu "way down deep in the middle of the jungle a hippo humped a manatee and spawned a scary daughter - i know, we'll call her ubuntu!" [11:43]
gribble funkenstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 1 week, 0 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: !register 6B0D10D1878DE25B4DA2695AB2B6360488298AB6 [11:43]
gribble The operation succeeded. [11:44]
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BingoBoingo !up jjb1212 [11:51]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.NSA] 42429 @ 0.000085 = 3.6065 BTC [-] [11:54]
asciilifeform 'The inaugural release of UbuntuBSD is now available, which the developers have codenamed "Escape From SystemD", and pairs the Ubuntu userspace with the FreeBSD kernel. ' << l0l! [11:58]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437115 << folks with a crapple box are in for a treat when viewing this link [11:58]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 13:48:22; shinohai: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ubuntubsd-first-release <<< I think I threw up a little when I read this. [11:58]
asciilifeform (pops up a spam with 'your browser is infected!111 call this toll free number!11 complete with faux 'bsod' with vague mac theme, etc) [11:59]
asciilifeform ^ was 'malvertising', could not replicate for screenshot [11:59]
phf http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2016/03/open-letter-devoted-party-members-urge-xis-resignation/ is shit going down in china? [12:01]
assbot Loyal Party Members Urge Xi's Resignation - China Digital Times (CDT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1T45qXA ) [12:01]
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asciilifeform phf: dirty emigre press [12:03]
BingoBoingo lol http://qntra.net/2016/03/roger-verified-outlet-gets-into-ether-huffing/#comment-49226 [12:03]
assbot Roger VERified Outlet Gets Into Ether Huffing | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Sd01v1 ) [12:03]
BingoBoingo https://archive.is/Cc4Gx WIN [12:18]
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* asciilifeform learns that there is/was some linux distro called... Pidora. almost fell off his chair. [12:21]
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phf rpi fedora, that's apropos naming right there [12:23]
asciilifeform oughta be renamed to 'pedora' so that engl. speakerz might make sense of the true meaning!11 [12:24]
jurov have you ever explained how this really relates to pederasty? [12:40]
jurov ah, it's in the logs, the prison thing [12:41]
mod6 <+mircea_popescu> hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ? << This could work -- it's in the vein of the 'BUTTSECKS' flag. Which seems simple enough. And the given topic-'tag' is a decent idea, i.e. 'OOM' or 'Cramer-Shoup' or 'keccak' [12:45]
trinque pffflol, dat variety speak! [12:46]
trinque I'm open to something like that; I've been doing a lot of work on deedbot lately [12:46]
trinque the cl-irc rewrite is nearly done... among other things, it can now, you know, stay online! [12:47]
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davout I lol'd at bitbet's first bet: https://bitbet.us/bet/1 [13:12]
assbot BitBet - Usagi FTW :: 0.11 B (14%) on Yes, 0.68 B (86%) on No | closed 3 years 6 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1XHvHKw ) [13:12]
BingoBoingo lol [13:14]
BingoBoingo more innocent times [13:14]
BingoBoingo When middled aged teacher (or whatever) who thought they were japanese teenage girls were the biggest threat model [13:15]
mod6 trinque: nice! [13:16]
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asciilifeform https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5875 << mega-wankatron [13:21]
assbot BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 1 week 5 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1pXwgVL ) [13:21]
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jurov https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 asciilifeform apparently you're not censored there anymore? [14:02]
assbot Vectored Signatures | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/1pvFQi8 ) [14:02]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437161 << mega-l0l! which one of you jokers posted. [14:03]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 16:56:58; jurov: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 asciilifeform apparently you're not censored there anymore? [14:03]
jurov i don't have acct there, not interested so much as to solve their impossible captchas [14:04]
asciilifeform they didn't even ~have~ captchas last time i logged in... [14:05]
jurov not login, registration [14:05]
asciilifeform ah [14:05]
asciilifeform at any rate, to nobody's great surprise, rubbish site has rubbish commentz, and even these - few [14:07]
asciilifeform but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. [14:07]
asciilifeform other than mircea_popescu who actually bothered to lift one hand [14:07]
asciilifeform the thing is about an actual problem, that oughta be dealt with imho. [14:08]
jurov oh, i like the proposal, except that i'm always two minds about anything [14:08]
asciilifeform let's hear the two+ minds ? [14:08]
jurov i mean, i'd prolly need one signature with "pros" and anther one with "cons" [14:08]
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asciilifeform jurov: i initially thought about doing just 1 bit, 'sig' and 'antisig' [14:10]
asciilifeform then expanded to 2, then 4, then whole byte which may be pushing it [14:10]
asciilifeform (i found it necessary to distinguish signing 'i wrote this' from 'i modified' from 'i found it as is') [14:10]
asciilifeform the dimensions i ended up with are not accidental [14:11]
asciilifeform but literally the minimum i could think of. [14:11]
jurov yes, that's fine and neat. [14:13]
asciilifeform well not really, i'm not satisfied with the result. [14:13]
asciilifeform it is clunky. [14:14]
jurov but whole idea leans in the direction of peer review, which must be some text, not collection of flags [14:14]
BingoBoingo but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. << compute time on my wetware has been over subscribed lately [14:14]
asciilifeform smacks of the rfc4880 idiocy [14:14]
asciilifeform i even thought about subservient keys of some kind, to express disapproval / 'i-found-it-as-it-no-endorsement', etc. [14:15]
asciilifeform but this is even worse. [14:15]
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jurov i can see the signature rather like S-expression with ID of the signed artifact, approve/disapprove/etc. bits which could be parsed and would have room for free text with any other nuances the signer wanted to add [14:19]
trinque that trends towards either enumerate-all-the-feelings or simply a wad of freeform text [14:20]
trinque I prefer the latter [14:20]
trinque a descriptive comment can explain why I signed just fine [14:20]
jurov no, i mean free text + some indexable bits [14:20]
trinque right, I am contradicting you :) [14:20]
trinque why index and machine-process what should be read and considered by a brain? [14:21]
jurov for poor vtron to be able to distinguish signatures and antisignatures [14:22]
asciilifeform ^ [14:22]
trinque the argument has yet to be made that I'd rather have your anti-signature override my other wot member's signature, rather than your persuasion elsewhere having caused me to delete his signature [14:23]
trinque from my seals dir [14:24]
trinque reminds me of key revocation actually, in the bad way [14:24]
jurov no, not override anything, such thing is up for you to decide [14:24]
jurov vtron would just say to you that the antisig from your wot exists [14:25]
trinque how does it not trend towards facebook "reactions" for vpatches ? [14:25]
jurov that would be bad thing? [14:26]
asciilifeform trinque: consider a scenario where i review, e.g., glibc [14:27]
jurov and if your wot peer starts spamming with facebooky comments, just remove him [14:27]
asciilifeform and decide that it is a work of evil [14:27]
asciilifeform whose key will you remove? drepper's ? which we never ~had to begin with~ ! [14:27]
asciilifeform right now i am stuck simply ~refusing to sign~ as a means of expressing disapproval [14:27]
asciilifeform which is moronic [14:27]
trinque I have an easier time seeing the benefit of a single bit of tarnish + description why [14:28]
trinque I don't think all the reasons for "why do I hate" can be represented usefully as a machine-grokkable header [14:28]
asciilifeform trinque: and what if not tarnish, but the simple-attest-without-approval ? [14:28]
trinque sign + description [14:29]
asciilifeform as in the given example with mircea_popescu and vintage bitcoin [14:29]
trinque "This is what it claims to be, and that is all I say about it." -- mp [14:29]
asciilifeform my argument is that there is a handful of EXTREMELY common situations re: signing that DON'T resolve to 'i approve of this' [14:30]
asciilifeform and that they are divisible into equivalence classes. [14:30]
trinque perhaps; that's my first stab at a reaction [14:30]
* trinque will ponder more [14:30]
asciilifeform and the point is not to excuse folks from the duty of writing comments [14:30]
asciilifeform but to make sure that certain situations are impossible [14:31]
asciilifeform i.e. of a vtron being confused by an enemy digging up ancient signed material. [14:31]
asciilifeform and likewise to make 'collect the words of great dead sage into coherent whole' a more workable proposition. [14:31]
trinque http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-11-2015#1321452 << obligatory thread [14:34]
assbot Logged on 10-11-2015 22:25:29; mircea_popescu: ie, there, "it's not the job of the state to protect the cultural patrimony OF INDIVIDUALS and their clans ; if those individuals and clans are so degenerate, bankrupt and chlorotioc as to no longer be able to protect their heritage, let the worms havce it. no, not even for comunist metaphisics ; no, the property of x isn't "ours", no x's history isn't "ours". let them uphold it or le [14:34]
trinque I see the benefit of "this seal is just a messenger" [14:34]
asciilifeform trinque: you are reminding me of the thread where i refused to solve the problem v solves initially [14:34]
asciilifeform because 'fuck you, collect patches and check sigs and determine order YOURSELF!111' [14:34]
asciilifeform 'reactor rodz!1111' [14:35]
asciilifeform but like it or not, we have right now a situation where folks are ~not signing patches. [14:35]
asciilifeform i can only speak for myself re: why [14:35]
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asciilifeform but imho i outlined a major reason. [14:35]
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asciilifeform it was EMINENTLY possible to build trb pre-v. [14:36]
asciilifeform yet various clever folks had trouble, e.g., mircea_popescu, hanbot [14:36]
asciilifeform likewise it is possible to sign other folks' patches today. yet not so many of us are doing it. [14:36]
asciilifeform and the all-or-nothing factor, i think, is part of it. [14:37]
asciilifeform i, for instance, can't bring myself to sign anything from polarbeard. [14:37]
asciilifeform nor do i have the stomach to sign v-genesis of ancient stuff, i struggled with the decision of whether to sign tinyscheme [14:37]
asciilifeform because i DO NOT ENDORSE IT WHOLESALE [14:38]
asciilifeform but there was no way to express this vtronically. [14:38]
asciilifeform and this BLOWS. [14:38]
asciilifeform http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected << see, for example. [14:41]
assbot asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected ... ( http://bit.ly/1MjoIXu ) [14:41]
asciilifeform this patch has 'all signers: mircea_popescu trinque asciilifeform mod6' [14:41]
asciilifeform NOBODY ELSE bothered ?! [14:41]
asciilifeform not ben_vulpes, even ? [14:42]
asciilifeform and this is a patch without which trb is ~dead in the water~ [14:42]
asciilifeform so what should i conclude, that no one bothered to read ? to sign ? or that folks had reservations? which is it. [14:42]
asciilifeform nobody, i should add, really oughta be signing unless he is ~sure~. but sure OF WHAT??? [14:44]
asciilifeform signing presently conveys ONE BIT of info, and it means... mysql [14:44]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> this patch has 'all signers: mircea_popescu trinque asciilifeform mod6' << i'll note that this signatures you're referencing are strictly for genesis.vpatch [14:48]
jurov i consider whole trb thing as something that demands my full attention, and there's always something more urgent to do... [14:48]
jurov maybe i should have been reading and signing patches instead of doing the mempool abortion [14:48]
mod6 further, all other vpatches are signed by me and me and you. there are some you haven't signed either. [14:49]
mod6 jurov: your mempool work was important. reading the vpatches and the ml and the SoBA is important too -- and iirc doesn't take that long to get through most of them at this point [14:49]
asciilifeform mod6: definitely there are some i did not sign, i listed one earlier [14:50]
asciilifeform and i'm not trying to be an arse to folks re: signing, but would like to know some of the ~reasons~ things aren't getting signed [14:50]
asciilifeform i listed a big one for me. [14:50]
mod6 yup ok [14:50]
trinque sure, for me it's "I cannot yet swear an oath to this" and could instead say "I have been running deedbot atop this successfully for x months" [14:51]
asciilifeform i still don't see why we can't have machine-distinguishability of 'i swear this is as i found it 5 years ago' vs 'i read and understood this' vs 'i wrote this and swear with my life that it will not fail' [14:54]
trinque I can see the pragmatism of it [14:54]
asciilifeform does anyone recall mircea_popescu's original push re: signing code ? [14:55]
asciilifeform there was this notion that folks might read old stuff and sign a subset [14:55]
asciilifeform well, the implicit 'i swear with my life to this' - leaves me reluctant to sign anything i did not write 100% of [14:56]
asciilifeform and a pretty big chunk of my efforts in reading ~questionable crud~, which i do a great deal of, is wasted [14:56]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i've been waiting for the "what does a signature convey" conversation to sign anything. [14:56]
asciilifeform in the sense that it leaves no serious perma-record. [14:56]
asciilifeform see there we have it. [14:56]
ben_vulpes right now, i expect to sign something half-baked that then crashes on some dirigible and gets me excommunicated [14:57]
ben_vulpes there is, so far, no "this sucks, but it introduces no new lies" bit. [14:57]
asciilifeform so this makes 2 of us. [14:58]
thestringpuller can signatures have numerical notation like GPG trustdb? [15:01]
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asciilifeform thestringpuller: scalar is mega-inadequate. [15:02]
asciilifeform i rejected this idea immediately. [15:02]
thestringpuller it needs to be discrete? [15:02]
asciilifeform no, there is more than one dimension. [15:03]
thestringpuller so what else is there? linear? parabolic? [15:04]
ben_vulpes i was even uncomfortable signing the genesis vpatch. what does that even mean -- "this is actually some variant of satoshi's hairball"? [15:05]
ben_vulpes "this bitcoinates - i do swear"? [15:05]
asciilifeform see there we go [15:05]
asciilifeform i signed it, but it had a distinct feel of falling on a necessary grenade [15:05]
ben_vulpes "this may contain pernicious hdd-wrecking nasties i'm unaware of, but is the closest thing to a bitcoinator i know of"? [15:05]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: didja read my modest proposal thing ? [15:06]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: thoughts ? [15:06]
ben_vulpes i did. [15:06]
ben_vulpes still thinking. [15:07]
ben_vulpes it hints at ameliorating my concerns. [15:07]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437279 << quaternionic. [15:12]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 17:59:11; thestringpuller: so what else is there? linear? parabolic? [15:12]
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thestringpuller "In mathematical field of representation theory, a quaternionic representation is a representation on a complex vector space V with an invariant quaternionic structure" [16:33]
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jurov thestringpuller: "complex vector space" sounds like fitting description of human attitude toward the matter being signed [16:35]
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jurov btw, i have misread first mention of it as "vectored thrust" and imagined "wow S.NSA is finally onto ICBMs. Or space program?" [16:39]
asciilifeform l0l [16:41]
mircea_popescu jurov> and if your wot peer starts spamming with facebooky comments, just remove him << it's not so simple, really. it's not a sudden and visible thing, just slow slide towards shitworld where you wake up one day and wonder wtf happened. much like irl marriages. [16:42]
jurov and sometimes it happens suddenly, like https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SWSqP8WFOdQ/Vu68Q-o05wI/AAAAAAAAJu0/rMYkpDTWpGk/w441-h221-no/rabbit%2Bpop.gif [16:43]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1UJwZ8z ) [16:43]
asciilifeform ^ [16:43]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes> right now, i expect to sign something half-baked that then crashes on some dirigible and gets me excommunicated << this is a very cogent point ; and i feel rather the same way. [16:45]
mircea_popescu haha win [16:46]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho single-bit scalar pgp is rather like car with sole control being a gas pedal. [16:46]
mircea_popescu i imagine that's a rabbit with a whiplash sore penis huh [16:46]
asciilifeform nubbins`: i invite you to comment on my post, possibly suggest a cleaner solution to the problem ? [16:48]
asciilifeform nubbins`: because there is a very real problem. [16:48]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> well, the implicit 'i swear with my life to this' - leaves me reluctant to sign anything i did not write 100% of << and who's to say, even if you wrote everything at one layer, that something doesn't fuck you in the butt from a layer below? we don't have computers. never did. [16:49]
asciilifeform mod6: separate issue. [16:50]
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mod6 but "i swear this werks!!", then someone runs your shit and it ~should~ work, but doesn't because of unforseen hardware, or configuration or cosmic rays. [16:50]
mircea_popescu mod6 that is the crux of the problem. there is no such thing as separatability in software anyway. [16:50]
asciilifeform ~this~ being specifically the this that you wrote. [16:50]
mod6 nothing is certain. [16:51]
asciilifeform ~this~ aspect is separable. [16:51]
mod6 we're all just rolling the dice. [16:51]
asciilifeform 'why wash hands? patients will die anyway' [16:51]
asciilifeform nonsense. [16:51]
mircea_popescu moreover, the issue of "it's kernel's fault" "no dude is program's fault" requires very complex analysis most people are unable to engage in, and in any case unable to finance even if they could somehow engage in it [16:51]
mod6 hey hey [16:51]
mod6 it doesn't mean that it's still not probablistic. [16:51]
mircea_popescu basically giving the day to the usual obamas with simple ideas and an insistence to repeat their nonsense. [16:52]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: since when do we 'most people' [16:52]
mod6 99.9995% of time it works. except for when it doesnt. [16:52]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform since you caqn't stop talking to them. [16:52]
asciilifeform l0l! [16:52]
mircea_popescu now plox to let me be. [16:52]
mircea_popescu mod6 in any case, the idea of responsibility in software is a lot more difficult to implement than previously hoped. [16:52]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: eh i didn't wake you up, did i [16:52]
mod6 mircea_popescu: well, indeed. i mean, i can "swear and affirm" that my code won't fail you, but really, I can't be certain one way or another. too many variables. [16:53]
mircea_popescu and, importantly, if it WERE to fail, how would we resolve the problem if it is or it isn't your fault. [16:54]
asciilifeform imho the concept of taking responsibility for ~the material you wrote~ is not a difficult one [16:54]
mircea_popescu yeah, sure, not a difficult one for as long as one lives on imaginary half mil a year and theorizes away. in practice, it will not be seen, nor has it. [16:54]
mod6 mircea_popescu: formally, a group would have to be constructed to investigate and analyze failures and place blame where beyond required -- if it can be proved beyond any doubt. [16:55]
mircea_popescu and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work [16:55]
mod6 for sure [16:55]
mircea_popescu much like it is cheaper for universities to universities than to actually teach anyone anything [16:55]
mod6 hhaha [16:55]
mod6 yes [16:55]
asciilifeform no shit [16:55]
mircea_popescu and moreover, even with the best of intentions, the defense of the group is expensive and arduous, and everyone's got better shit to do. [16:56]
mod6 we're just at this moment in history where everything sucks., [16:56]
mod6 we have no computers, we have almost no sound money, everything is faux. [16:56]
mircea_popescu like in that film with the guy who keeps waking up in the same place. [16:56]
asciilifeform we are, however, overrun with vermin, and this opens up astonishing perspectives in pesticidal work [16:57]
mod6 until we have computers, and i mean "have computers" in the sense that alf would be happy to say he has a "comptuer", whatever that means. [16:57]
mod6 we can't have real true responsibiltiy of code ownership. [16:57]
asciilifeform mod6: last week i finally built... a computer. [16:57]
asciilifeform it runs on a 6502 ! [16:57]
mod6 no way [16:57]
mod6 no fucking way [16:57]
asciilifeform you will prolly not want one. [16:57]
asciilifeform promise. [16:57]
mod6 i may want one! [16:58]
mod6 is it deterministic?! [16:58]
mod6 turing complete? [16:58]
asciilifeform yes. [16:58]
asciilifeform but you already have, chances are, a 6502 micro somewhere in the cellar. [16:58]
mod6 well, maybe alf is farther along on this journey than anyone had thought. and maybe "sucks" is only very temporary. [16:58]
mircea_popescu maybe. [16:59]
mod6 but until we all have shit that doesn't suck... we're kinda just waiting until it doens't suck. in the context of blame and "i don't have to /hope/ this thing works, I know mod6 said it does, ergo, it works." [16:59]
asciilifeform mod6: it is a parachute, in case certain things happen. [16:59]
mod6 is the 6502 those cocaine looking packages you got? [16:59]
asciilifeform mod6: that was support chipset, and a buncha z80 [16:59]
mod6 ah. thats right. [17:00]
asciilifeform (largely 74xxx logic, and buncha srams, eproms) [17:00]
mod6 anyway, sorry for the rant. but it is not lost on me how hosed up "computer land" is these days. [17:00]
mod6 its like a house in malibu, built on stilts, on the side of a hill that mud slides after .25" of rain. [17:01]
asciilifeform mod6: which is why islands of sanity are ~everything~. [17:01]
mod6 worse probably. [17:01]
mircea_popescu the one problematic part is that stilts or no stilts, the product is actually very well adapted to the market it serves. [17:03]
mircea_popescu not like the actual malibu dwellers are coerced to live in the vinyl sidings abominations. meeting of the minds. [17:03]
asciilifeform real-airplane is largely wasted on aborigines, aha [17:03]
mod6 haha. [17:11]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437332 << troika will decide!111 [17:11]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 19:48:46; mircea_popescu: and, importantly, if it WERE to fail, how would we resolve the problem if it is or it isn't your fault. [17:11]
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asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437334 << the distance from workable theory to cold iron here is quite short, and eminently bridgeable. if we had the usable theory. which is a problem i was taking a stab at. [17:14]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 19:49:37; mircea_popescu: yeah, sure, not a difficult one for as long as one lives on imaginary half mil a year and theorizes away. in practice, it will not be seen, nor has it. [17:14]
asciilifeform i keep getting the feeling that we only half-solved vtronics [17:15]
asciilifeform in the same sense that, e.g., edison, half-solved electric grid distribution [17:15]
asciilifeform now i could be wrong, entirely, and this-is-as-solved-as-it-gets [17:15]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other. [17:20]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 19:50:15; mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work [17:20]
mod6 maybe having different keys (key certifing "i read this" [eyes] / "I wrote this" [hands] / ... etc.) is an analog for the polyphase system that replaced it. [17:20]
asciilifeform mod6: multitudes of keys are iffy [17:20]
mod6 and you sign your vtron keys with your one regular key? i dunno. [17:20]
asciilifeform i actually considered this, in the beginning. [17:21]
asciilifeform 'subkeys' suck donkey ballz. [17:22]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other. << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. [17:22]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 19:50:15; mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work [17:22]
mod6 I think if people can make punishment first, they will. cause no == yes && yes == anal. [17:22]
mod6 who's to say what is anything [17:23]
mod6 Welcome nihlistic Monday [17:23]
asciilifeform whole point of the instrument is to ~make it possible for there to be such a thing as a Who~ [17:24]
asciilifeform just as running water strongly enables, but does not guarantee, hygiene [17:24]
asciilifeform folks still gotta take the time to wash. [17:24]
mod6 without quality random numbers, we can't have certifiable cryptographic identities. [17:24]
mod6 who's to say anyone is anyone when P & Q are fingerfucked by the NSA or other spooks. [17:25]
asciilifeform !s the man who was thursday [17:26]
assbot 8 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday [17:26]
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asciilifeform am i the only one here right now who isn't sitting in a dark room with a bottle of vodka and loaded nagant ? [17:26]
mod6 im no [17:28]
mod6 t [17:28]
mod6 anyway, that looks like an interesting novel. [17:28]
davout asciilifeform: with tmsr~ spanning a few timezones, there's bound to always be someone with an open bottle [17:29]
mod6 But my good man, a serious cornerstone / building block to sanity and in the direction of "workable" computer will come when your work is complete and I can get quality random numbers. [17:29]
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mod6 other than some otp [17:30]
asciilifeform mod6: what do you mean 'some otp' [17:30]
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pete_dushenski !s stuck node [17:31]
assbot 22 results for 'stuck node' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=stuck+node [17:31]
asciilifeform mod6: and i probably ought to point out that 'quality random' was baked long ago, ben_vulpes actually took a sample unit home after c3... [17:31]
mod6 one guy! [17:31]
mod6 ook anyway, one time pad - i can create with dice no? [17:31]
mod6 now i gotta dig something up on trilema. thought there was an article? [17:31]
pete_dushenski http://dpaste.com/1PHC5RR.txt << my last 1000 lines of debug.log on my own stuck node, if anyone's interested [17:31]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1U2gm93 ) [17:31]
asciilifeform mod6: debiasing dice is a bitch [17:32]
pete_dushenski it's jammed twice in the last week now. [17:32]
asciilifeform pete_dushenski: how long has it been ? [17:33]
mod6 asciilifeform: hm. im misremembering something. eitherway, outside of well, anywhere really, i can't think of a single place in the known universe where the nsa can't diddle your shit. [17:33]
pete_dushenski asciilifeform: the most recent jam was at 403`396 [17:33]
asciilifeform mod6: i am comfortable in the supposition that nsa cannot yet travel backwards in time. [17:33]
asciilifeform nor perform 'esp' [17:34]
mod6 we've got a lot of stuff to fabricate and create. [17:34]
asciilifeform mod6: until then - to excavate. [17:35]
mod6 ya. this hardware scares the bahjeesus out of me. [17:35]
asciilifeform megatonnes of perfectly-good 1980s lsi lying around. [17:35]
mod6 i want like some 1971 vac shit. [17:35]
mod6 i think i need to start doing all of my computing with paper and pencil, in a room with no doors, no windows or lights. [17:39]
pete_dushenski asciilifeform: the weirder thing is that the stuck node is on the physical box i have, not either of the two vpses i have. and all are running 99997k or 99996k. [17:39]
asciilifeform mod6: l0l [17:39]
asciilifeform mod6: and if you were thinking of vax, 1st one was sold in, iirc, '77 [17:39]
mod6 ah,. yeah vax. i was kidding anyway. [17:40]
mod6 i should look at some 80's hardware and see if I can spin up a rig. [17:40]
asciilifeform mod6: i started with this. [17:40]
asciilifeform mod6: prolly ought to share my observations here. [17:40]
asciilifeform ~actual, whole~ '80s micro is a good toy and learning instrument, but poor foundation for a battlefield system. [17:41]
mod6 ah. hrm. [17:41]
asciilifeform largely because - while they were indeed built on top of some excellent 8-bit cpu, most of which can still be had - [17:41]
asciilifeform they also contained various custom i/o, that is gnarly, of heavy incidental complexity, and - importantly - cannot be had in new production [17:44]
asciilifeform and is not even in all cases 100% documented, so will be difficult to re-create. [17:44]
asciilifeform in other instances, there are anachronisms that create wholly unnecessary problems, e.g., tape and extinct disk systems [17:44]
asciilifeform whereas thing really oughta take modern 'flash' [17:44]
mod6 Hmm. [17:45]
mod6 pete_dushenski: i didn't see anything crazy in there. runnign with -connect or -addnode? [17:45]
mod6 so i/o drivers need to be written by hand alf? [17:46]
asciilifeform mod6: 'drivers' is not really a meaningful concept on a 64k box [17:46]
mod6 heheh [17:46]
asciilifeform this, i must add, is not an official s.nsa project of any kind. but it is there on my desk with a dozen other items of 'parachute' variety [17:47]
asciilifeform i once decided to determine the simplest box that could be assembled from readily-available (preferebly, sov-block) components, that could GENERATE and OPERATE a reasonable onetimepad. [17:47]
asciilifeform and carry out certain other operations [17:48]
mod6 is it crazy to think that said chip you're talking about be re-constructed on a fpga, perhaps many of them on one fpga? [17:48]
asciilifeform (e.g., lamport signature; burn & verify eproms; etc) [17:48]
pete_dushenski mod6: -connect [17:48]
asciilifeform mod6: you could fit 500 of them on a cheap fpga. but you will be using an AMERICAN FPGA [17:48]
pete_dushenski mod6: to two of the b-a nodes and one of my own [17:48]
asciilifeform y'know, the ones with 0 docs [17:48]
mod6 once fully sync'd pete_dushenski, make a back up your your block chain, and then use -addnode [17:49]
pete_dushenski mod6: will do :] [17:49]
mod6 -connect is great for getting blocks from a trusted node, but you're only connected to just that node. so if there is some sort of blocking issue... you might get starved. [17:49]
mod6 asciilifeform: do any worthwhile FPGAs' with open docs exist at any price? [17:50]
asciilifeform mod6: nope. [17:50]
mod6 you've been over this a hundred times im sure. [17:50]
mod6 sorry. [17:50]
mod6 goddamnit. we need some sane hardware and quality random numbers. [17:50]
phf asciilifeform: but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. << i'm not groking how that's supposed to work with gpg signatures [17:51]
mod6 we'll get there. [17:51]
mod6 phf: well, other than saying "interesting" and "cool", i couldn't figure out how to do that either. unless we create a vtron signature style in 'g' or is it 'p'? i cant recall.. cause how will someones vtron be able to pull the bit string out to know how to categorize someones seal? [17:52]
mod6 this is all implementation and theory. [17:53]
asciilifeform if i'm gonna depend on an antique, i'd rather take one that was made in qty 500,000,000 in 11 countries. than 10,000 in usa-only. [17:53]
mod6 I like the idea though. We just don't have the tools yet. [17:53]
asciilifeform phf: it isn't [17:53]
asciilifeform though i considered, brifly, hijacking the high bits of the timestamp 32b field for it [17:54]
asciilifeform (but decided that this was retarded) [17:54]
asciilifeform *briefly [17:54]
mod6 asciilifeform: if the various bits for hands/eyes/heart/brain are not to be in anyway invovled with a signature, any thoughts on how we pass these around with the signature? [17:54]
asciilifeform mod6: this was deliberately not specified [17:54]
mod6 oh, i see. [17:54]
asciilifeform there is no clean way to do it with classical gpg [17:54]
mod6 gotcha [17:54]
mod6 right [17:54]
mod6 but since you're writing one... you could wrap that in there perhaps? [17:55]
asciilifeform aha. [17:55]
mod6 werd. [17:55]
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asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437473 << a CORRECT approach and literally 1 line of sed is worth 10,000 hours of misguided toolmaking. [18:00]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 20:48:01; mod6: I like the idea though. We just don't have the tools yet. [18:00]
asciilifeform think, e.g., 'vdiff'. [18:00]
davout http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437476 <<< why's that retarded? kindof the first thing i thought about when reading your piece [18:01]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 20:48:53; asciilifeform: (but decided that this was retarded) [18:01]
asciilifeform davout: because it breaks things. [18:01]
asciilifeform and, importantly, ~fails~ to break things that oughta break [18:01]
trinque asciilifeform: can you make yours give proper exit codes pls? :) [18:01]
asciilifeform trinque: waiwut [18:01]
trinque I was horrified to discover yesterday that gpg does not exit nonzero when a sig doesn't verify [18:01]
asciilifeform trinque: l0l! srsly? which gpg?! [18:01]
trinque it craps an error message, yes, but otherwise exit 0 [18:02]
trinque 1.4.19 over here [18:02]
davout asciilifeform: specifically? [18:02]
asciilifeform and anyway why are you relying on the exit code ? [18:02]
trinque I'm not; just saw it while rewriting deedbot [18:02]
asciilifeform davout: if using format of classic gpg, there is no way to uniquely specify 'this is vtronically signed' [18:03]
asciilifeform so you will never know if sig is made by old or new. [18:03]
phf trinque: because gpg --verify is not intended to be used in batch process, if you're doing verification specifically should be using gpgv, which also expects env (keys in dbs specifically) to be in a certain state [18:03]
asciilifeform afaik using any reserved bits (algo field) will nuke ordinary gpg. [18:03]
trinque http://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2004-August/023141.html << rationale [18:04]
assbot gpg --verify exit status ... ( http://bit.ly/1UzkL3g ) [18:04]
davout asciilifeform: hardfork is indeed cleaner aha [18:04]
davout trinque: my 1.4.19 outputs 0 for correct sig, 1 for incorrect sig, 2 for unsigned data [18:05]
trinque davout: hm seems I might've been wrong [18:08]
* trinque fiddles moar [18:08]
asciilifeform trinque: motherfucking KEYRINGS arrggh [18:09]
trinque hm yeah, dunno how I was getting exit 0; might've been a case of having used inferior-shell wrong earlier [18:10]
asciilifeform phf: one of the big reasons gpg is a turd is the 'keys in dbs' idiocy [18:14]
asciilifeform FUCK hidden state [18:14]
asciilifeform state is what the motherfucking file system is for [18:14]
asciilifeform when it cannot be avoided [18:14]
asciilifeform and if it doesn't come in explicitly and deliberately through the command line or stdio, it doesn't belong in the input. [18:15]
asciilifeform FUCK every pissant proggy getting to have its own miniature version of the microshit winblowz 'registry'. [18:15]
asciilifeform if i wanted registry, i would fucking run winblowz. [18:15]
* asciilifeform froths, like a rabid dog [18:16]
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mod6 'keyring' is alf's pavlovian trigger [18:18]
asciilifeform actually the bell and the food dish are my pavlovian trigger. [18:18]
mod6 haha, what you hear the bell and you mentally think 'food' and you see food dish and think 'bell' ? [18:19]
asciilifeform aha! [18:19]
trinque as long as the filesystem in question lets me find things rapidly by searching over metadata, I will happily give up my black boxes of such [18:20]
asciilifeform neighbour trained the cats to come out of hiding when she bangs on the dish [18:20]
phf main reason gpg is turd, because was written for dos and frozen into spec that way. provided functionally is composite and doesn't "do one thing well". instead of freeform key annotation has explicit "name, email, comment" fields, instead of easy way to spawn many keys, has a convoluted key hierarchy, etc. [18:20]
* trinque mumbles about befs with bottle of booze in hand [18:20]
asciilifeform phf: you can always tell the smell of microshit [18:21]
asciilifeform and yes, ultimately it is why it has own idiotronic db [18:21]
asciilifeform because it 'had to' exist on idiot os with 8char filenames [18:21]
asciilifeform there are reasons why my first act re trb was to exterminate all compatibility with microshit [18:22]
asciilifeform because it merely being A THING is pernicious. [18:22]
mod6 GnuPG-~1 [18:23]
mod6 stab [18:23]
asciilifeform you can't 'live and let live' with microshit. [18:23]
asciilifeform it will entumour you. [18:23]
phf i have love/hate relationship with dos [18:23]
asciilifeform phf: i think we all do [18:23]
mod6 where does the love come in? [18:24]
asciilifeform mod6: mircea_popescu had a good article, iirc, on this. it was the last gasp of the 'my computer is mine and i know how it works' era. [18:24]
asciilifeform this, and also most of the games ever made that imho were worth playing, were on it. [18:24]
asciilifeform i will have a dos box until i die. [18:24]
mod6 ah. [18:24]
asciilifeform and i don't think i will live long enough to fully exhaust the excellent gamez. [18:25]
asciilifeform dos pc was also the absolute pinnacle of the make-own-hardware era [18:25]
asciilifeform whereas go and try make a pci-e card. [18:25]
phf mod6: low cognitive load, for a significant payoff. great games, enough useful software to solve all day to day problems, a handful of dev environments (including emacs, gcc, clisp besides native Turbo * stuff) to solve any possible problems that might come up [18:25]
asciilifeform eh dos emacs sucked arse [18:26]
asciilifeform serious devs used turboc, or, in the very end days, watcom. [18:26]
asciilifeform (watcom rocked absolutely) [18:26]
phf i don't mean Emacs, but dos emacs is enough for the "i have text, i need to shape text into new text" tasks [18:27]
asciilifeform sure. [18:27]
asciilifeform i used norton commander's editor for 99% of things. [18:27]
phf so did i, but i mean this for the hypothetical, "move back to dos and fuck y'all" retreat :] [18:28]
* MobGod is now known as Mob [18:29]
phf like if forced i could spend rest of life with a dos machine, can't say the same for os x 10.10, but that of course assumes that i somehow don't ever have to work, and in fact live in a "concent" for the rest of life [18:30]
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asciilifeform phf: this is pretty much my entire ambition in life [18:30]
asciilifeform i.e. to get to where i can just have the dos box. [18:30]
mod6 let's rewrite everything in asm and scheme [18:31]
* mod6 runs [18:31]
asciilifeform (in proper 'concent', 'syndevs' not permitted!111 gotta write in ink, on paper from paper treez!) [18:31]
mats is this a slav thing, 'concent', 'syndevs'? [18:36]
phf i assume we're pre-second sack (or first for that matter) [18:36]
mod6 speaking of which... if we were still going to use scheme, long-term, i'd probably re-write my vtron in scheme -- if for no other reason, to learn it. [18:36]
mod6 but I think I might take a stab at writting it in ada so I can learn that with a proper example instead. [18:37]
mod6 i dunno, maybe. need something useful to fuck around with to learn that stuff. [18:37]
mod6 then maybe will be able to pitch in for adacoin [18:37]
phf mats: we're doing silly http://www.amazon.com/dp/006147410X references [18:38]
assbot Anathem: Neal Stephenson: 9780061474101: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1pvYoyN ) [18:38]
mats ok [18:38]
asciilifeform mega-b000k [18:42]
trinque mod6: incidentally, list-o-megab00ks would be a great use case for that !tag thing [18:48]
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ben_vulpes what, people don't maintain their own list of books as suggested by the individuals in chan? [20:07]
ben_vulpes what is this automating of the mental reactor rods!? [20:07]
ben_vulpes stay limber in your head and effective at your keyboard, and do everything manually why not [20:08]
trinque uh, no. [20:10]
trinque I want lists of things. I am not a damned secretary [20:11]
* ben_vulpes hands trinque a pineapple and broomstick [20:11]
phf i usually fail to come back to lists, but i think i've read most things recommended on b-a, the frequency is actually low enough that you can put things in a pile and catch up pretty fast [20:12]
* trinque puts pineapple on the end of broomstick, makes weapon [20:12]
ben_vulpes nono [20:13]
ben_vulpes for sitting [20:13]
mod6 trinque: yeah for sure. [20:15]
mircea_popescu mod6 << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. << there is no possible division between "punishment" no matter how defined and trust in any reasonable sense. either what you say matters, in which case the world rapidly evolves towards "too hard for peoeple, who just want to..." or what you say doesn't matter, in which case the world rapidly evolves towards welfare state. it is what in math [20:15]
mircea_popescu ematics is known as a pole. attempts to create a netherworld between the sharply divergent f(x) and f(x+e) is what i've recently discovered - through the usual stepping on research process - to be a landmine. [20:15]
mircea_popescu in a different restatement, people "willing to take responsibility for their actions" only has an imaginary part, and no real part ; for the necessary reason that responsibility can not be defined coherently in the real space. [20:16]
* Mob is now known as MobGod [20:17]
shinohai http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/21/technology/doj-apple-hearing/index.html dun, dun DUN [20:23]
assbot DOJ may have found a way to hack into terrorist's iPhone - Mar. 21, 2016 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RgnCIO ) [20:23]
mircea_popescu terrorists have iphones ? the weird world. [20:24]
ben_vulpes in more finely-tuned news: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/J85_ge_17a_turbojet_engine.jpg [20:36]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rgpq4D ) [20:36]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.NSA] 195000 @ 0.00005012 = 9.7734 BTC [-] {2} [20:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MG] 379000 @ 0.00009 = 34.11 BTC [-] {2} [20:40]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437588 << waaaaiwut..?? did we uninvent wot now ? [20:44]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 23:11:33; mircea_popescu: in a different restatement, people "willing to take responsibility for their actions" only has an imaginary part, and no real part ; for the necessary reason that responsibility can not be defined coherently in the real space. [20:44]
asciilifeform what am i missing. [20:44]
mircea_popescu the wot is not related to this discussion. [20:51]
mircea_popescu FUCK every pissant proggy getting to have its own miniature version of the microshit winblowz 'registry'. << so true this. [20:52]
mircea_popescu it's stress syndrome already, lifeforms fully aware they live in shit. "i'ma make myself a house!" [20:52]
asciilifeform i thought whole point of wot was to a) bare your chest to the knife and b) to even have a chest [20:52]
mircea_popescu wot is not supporting of a single notion of identity. what x signature is varies irreconcillably among the users, by design and deliberately. [20:54]
mircea_popescu for the record, and to revisit that old definition of "public" ie the forum vs "private" ie the gynacaeum, something is public when it has what has been here referred to as a "real" part. ie, when it is possible to make a definition for it that is meaningful for everyone. [20:55]
mircea_popescu the wot is eminently private and so deeply irreducible to public that it doesn't even matter it is publicly visible [20:56]
mircea_popescu a model mirrored in the itnended design of gossipd. [20:56]
asciilifeform well signature comes with a mechanical algo for verification; everything beyond that is 'promise', rather than protocol [20:56]
mircea_popescu sure. [20:56]
asciilifeform but the thing about 'may as well not be visible' is dead on [20:56]
asciilifeform who the fuck knows what so-and-so's ratings ~really~ meant, but him and his inner circle (if that) [20:56]
asciilifeform which is why the gossip model of wot is the correct one, where there is no attempt at global/'canonical' state, but only a series of questions, which folks may choose to answer - or not - depending on who asks. [20:57]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437595 << somebody's packin' for a trip to mars or what. [20:59]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 23:35:26; assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 379000 @ 0.00009 = 34.11 BTC [-] {2} [20:59]
jurov !t m s.nsa [21:00]
assbot [MPEX:S.NSA] 1D: 0.00005 / 0.00007428 / 0.000085 (634821 shares, 47.16 BTC), 7D: 0.00005 / 0.00007517 / 0.000085 (692100 shares, 52.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00005 / 0.00007521 / 0.000086 (695100 shares, 52.28 BTC) [21:00]
jurov ^ martians, too? [21:01]
asciilifeform jurov: i meant, that somebody is selling megatonnes of various. [21:01]
asciilifeform incl. it [21:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5150 @ 0.00041827 = 2.1541 BTC [+] {2} [21:02]
jurov yes, and withdrawing.. and i have to ping mircea_popescu again [21:02]
asciilifeform l0l i thought jurov had already sold [21:02]
mircea_popescu aite. [21:02]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437604 << this is ~exactly~ what i was aiming at with 'v algebra' thing, to see if it is possible to expand the 'real part' of signature. [21:04]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 23:50:23; mircea_popescu: for the record, and to revisit that old definition of "public" ie the forum vs "private" ie the gynacaeum, something is public when it has what has been here referred to as a "real" part. ie, when it is possible to make a definition for it that is meaningful for everyone. [21:04]
asciilifeform i do not yet know if it is possible. [21:04]
mircea_popescu gynaeceum in any case. [21:05]
asciilifeform so mircea_popescu is presently in the 'nothing to be gained from machine-readable encodings of signature meanings' school of thought ? [21:06]
mircea_popescu i am currently of the " ' technology won't be solving human problems ' has been deeply abused and is taking its pound of flesh" school of thought. [21:07]
asciilifeform this i can see. [21:07]
asciilifeform even with my amoeba eye. [21:08]
* MobGod is now known as Mob [21:17]
phf [20:02:06] i am currently of the " ' technology won't be solving human problems ' has been deeply abused and is taking its pound of flesh" school of thought. << i failed to parse, you saying "technology won't solve" has been overused, and there's need to lean in opposite direction? [21:19]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437589 << l0l, mcafee finally desoldered the nand for them? or one of the other 10,001 folks who offered. [21:20]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 23:17:55; shinohai: http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/21/technology/doj-apple-hearing/index.html dun, dun DUN [21:20]
mircea_popescu phf there's no need to lean or anything ; but the fact remains that if you're unhappy with the way in which fights between toddlers and adults are coming out, giving the toddlers fancier rifles is not likely to do much. [21:21]
asciilifeform (the real question is why usg would ever admit to it - whole point of the charade was to build precedent-setting verdict. i suppose this outcome became in doubt, and whole thing was brought to what is intended as a quiet burial ?) [21:21]
mircea_popescu pretty much the ~only way such an attempt ends up is into a f-35, sooner or later. [21:22]
hanbot http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437059 << that sounds like the most sane solution on tap for efficiency & accuracy both. and honestly...crawling back through the last coupla weeks' logs to study this i couldn't really be paid. much as i'd like to lend some time to folks actually doing good work, this place is reeking rotten already. [21:24]
assbot Logged on 21-03-2016 07:43:11; mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ? [21:24]
asciilifeform imho this is a spiffy idea. 'tagbot' ? [21:25]
mircea_popescu the all-permeating smell of the young male, eh ? supposedly the world is built on these, you know. [21:25]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: on their corpses, not them as such [21:25]
mircea_popescu btw, let me introduce hanbot to you asciilifeform [21:26]
mircea_popescu i was of the notion you two had previously met. [21:26]
hanbot mircea_popescu i'm really interested in 'em, dead or alive. [21:26]
asciilifeform waiwut [21:26]
hanbot *not [21:26]
asciilifeform we met at c2 & 3 [21:26]
asciilifeform and hanbot was my 1st contact here [21:27]
mircea_popescu see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-03-2016#1426606 [21:28]
assbot Logged on 08-03-2016 17:07:08; asciilifeform: anyway i do not know hanbot very well, cannot speak for hanbot. [21:28]
asciilifeform i know hanbot, as she knows i, largely by works. [21:28]
asciilifeform largely as i know mircea_popescu. [21:29]
mircea_popescu well it's good i said something then. anyway. [21:29]
phf prometheus was appropriately punished for his infraction, but little good that did [21:29]
mircea_popescu as this stuff usually works, eh. [21:29]
* asciilifeform finally grasps that mircea_popescu is going through the miserable l0gz [21:30]
hanbot mircea_popescu you know that line gave me pause at the time, but i figured he was entertaining the noisebox so what do i know what he's answering to. all in all though, pretty odd. [21:30]
mircea_popescu no, i'm not. i noticed it then, and was deeply surprised she was even considering doing anything ; not surprised in the end result. [21:31]
asciilifeform hanbot: to clarify, i meant that i cannot presume to speak for other people, esp. ones who i have not interacted with at great length [21:31]
asciilifeform i.e. i might have a crude emulated mircea_popescu living in my head, but not a very well developed hanbot [21:32]
asciilifeform btw my emulated micropopescu is stabbing me with a sharpened toothbrush. is this a correct spec behaviour ? [21:32]
hanbot eh, don't worry about it asciilifeform [21:32]
phf there was a blog in the early days of medium, that was basically snippets from irc conversations. my impression was that the display software was gradually hacked into turning out increasingly cleaner posts through various in-channel annotations, like ;tag, ;post, etc. there was significant amount of editorializing though. so someone was responsible, at the end of the thread, to turn it into a post. we kind of have that adhoc, and md [21:36]
phf does it the most, but we could help or outright automate the process through annotations [21:36]
phf *mp [21:37]
phf i periodically try and remember its name to plunder for ideas, but failing so far.. [21:37]
trinque I'm nearly done with my deedbot- rewrite; I could add this as well. deed the list of tags per $interval or something [21:38]
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trinque phf: took your example and wrote a CLOS thing for pluggable services. [21:39]
phf nice :) [21:40]
trinque new deedbot currently lurks in #deedbutt-test [21:40]
trinque guy even knows how to ghost his nick [21:41]
asciilifeform trinque: mighty spiffy [21:42]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and yes i am an arse! with no social graces! but my aspiration is that when i finally go to the woodchipper, folks will remember the pile of dead nazis, and not how i was arse. [21:44]
trinque asciilifeform: perhaps usg's threat is they will shame Apple in public unless they privately bend over more obediently [21:45]
phf "i don't speak for hanbot for hanbot has a tongue." [21:45]
asciilifeform phf ^ has it. [21:46]
asciilifeform trinque: how does a finger muppet 'privately' do anything to another finger muppet on the same glove ? [21:46]
asciilifeform phf: you may have been thinking of bash.org ? [21:47]
trinque perhaps usg asked something drastic enough apple is concerned [21:47]
asciilifeform trinque: nowhere in what crapple sells is there to be found anything posing so much as a temporary annoyance to hitler. [21:48]
asciilifeform (ditto google et al) [21:48]
trinque absent that I have to assume sheer incoherence on the part of hitler [21:49]
asciilifeform trinque: no incoherence, i can remove the motherfucking nand ~here~ in this godforsaken hovel [21:49]
asciilifeform and so can 10,000,001 other folks [21:49]
trinque incoherent that they ever made a public fight of it [21:49]
trinque given that. [21:49]
asciilifeform trinque: idea was to play stupid & set judicial precedent in favour of arbitrary do-what-we-say orders [21:50]
phf asciilifeform: nah, was actual blog, i started reading it when it had coherent topical posts, but studying their history, it started as snippets and gradually acquired features. like early posts were straight up logs, later names were stripped and only text from "posters" retained, etc. [21:50]
asciilifeform trinque: and also to make some noise, and give the 'aspiring terrorists should buy crapple devices!' honeytrap a boost [21:50]
trinque that I can see [21:51]
asciilifeform phf: now this i have never seen, but would like to, if you turn it up again [21:52]
phf asciilifeform: so i actually made an effort to go through my notes and found it immediately, http://2lmc.org/spool/. they nuked their entire log and just one static page remains, hmm [21:56]
assbot 2lmc spool - recent spoolage ... ( http://bit.ly/1pYCIvP ) [21:56]
phf but you can get general idea [21:56]
asciilifeform aha! [21:57]
asciilifeform very neat [21:57]
asciilifeform i esp. like the footer. [21:57]
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phf old school snark [22:09]
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asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2013/me-aged-5 << got this in trilemarandom and it is mega-lulzy. now i want to find the cartoon! and watch. [22:49]
assbot Me, aged 5 on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MyxviX ) [22:49]
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mircea_popescu trinque> guy even knows how to ghost his nick << nice stuff. [23:09]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i once met a young girl who thought she is no good with math. she was creative you see, and on her grave was to be inscribed a vintage purse rather than a badly unresolved equation. [23:11]
mircea_popescu she can integrate now, and it didn't even take that many whippings. [23:11]
asciilifeform neato, where do i sign up! [23:11]
asciilifeform i'd like the badly unresolved eq on mine tho [23:12]
asciilifeform por favor. [23:13]
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asciilifeform ;;later tell mod6 http://cs.fit.edu/~ryan/ada/programs << you will find these useful, i did [23:14]
gribble The operation succeeded. [23:14]
assbot Ada Programs ... ( http://bit.ly/1NTHkaB ) [23:14]
asciilifeform !s vintage purse [23:19]
assbot 2 results for 'vintage purse' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=vintage+purse [23:19]
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asciilifeform it was definitely shorthand for something [23:20]
phf asciilifeform: etsy as failed woman minimax, sort of the opposite of theorems [23:22]
asciilifeform aha i found the thread [23:23]
asciilifeform interestingly, if it were not for mircea_popescu , i would have never learned this [23:24]
asciilifeform that planet is entirely invisible from my optics [23:24]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform> phf: you may have been thinking of bash.org ? << i don't think he is and i have a vague recollection of this from the very early 2000s that i also can't place [23:27]
mircea_popescu but if you asked me i'd have thought mine was romanian [23:27]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform> trinque: idea was to play stupid & set judicial precedent in favour of arbitrary do-what-we-say orders << i think trinque is much closer to the facts of the field. beast doth not know what it wants not merely for the provable impossibility of such a want, but mostly for absence of a want organ. [23:29]
asciilifeform the latest twist suggests this. [23:29]
asciilifeform i can see no possible ~logic~ for announcing 'someone opened it' and torpedoing own case [23:30]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform> now i want to find the cartoon! and watch. << http://documents.tips/documents/carte-balaica-si-bobocel.html [23:32]
assbot Carte Balaica Si Bobocel - Documents ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgVjQG ) [23:32]
mircea_popescu it wasn't a cartoon. it was a "book of practical activities for making puppets and designing scenes". superadvanced art stuff for ro genius kids [23:32]
* asciilifeform reads [23:33]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu's story re wanting the jewels reminds me of mine [23:35]
asciilifeform i begged my elder brother to give me, somehow, some ~numbers~ [23:36]
asciilifeform as in, physical [23:36]
asciilifeform somehow the notion entered my head that this was possible [23:36]
mircea_popescu poor woman [23:36]
mircea_popescu o wait, your brother ? [23:37]
asciilifeform he found some toy puzzle thing that nominally satisfied, but i knew it was a sham. [23:37]
asciilifeform and i wouldn't listen to any explanation of how it couldn't be done. [23:38]
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mircea_popescu pretty tall order. [23:39]
phf give me here on a platter the head of john the baptist [23:40]
mircea_popescu that at least could be satisfied. even in 80s cold dark romania, proper jools could in principle be had. [23:41]
mircea_popescu but numbers ? [23:41]
asciilifeform aha. [23:43]
mircea_popescu much long ago, when chet was a young woman, with children like many here she tried to prepare herself, like many here try. so she had an answer all ready for the eventual inevitable moment her oldest was going to inquire why the sky is blue. [23:43]
mircea_popescu the child wanted to know "why sky". [23:43]
asciilifeform aha! WHY?! [23:43]
mircea_popescu go, tell three year old that the sky isn't a thing, pristina rosa, all that. [23:44]
mircea_popescu in other crazy news, i just popped (ie, got a major loot) in eulora. 1+ bitcent's worth of brave man's nosehairs. [23:45]
mircea_popescu like 60k of the things. [23:45]
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Category: Logs
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