Forum logs for 20 Sep 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

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mircea_popescu	;;ticker	[00:19]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 399.84, Best ask: 400.74, Bid-ask spread: 0.90000, Last trade: 400.74, 24 hour volume: 31890.07768146, 24 hour low: 378.78, 24 hour high: 436.85, 24 hour vwap: 404.276161033	[00:19]
mircea_popescu	so 4 is this new 5 ? i don't like this fortran.	[00:19]
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BingoBoingo	http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/19/apples-dangerous-game/	[00:22]
assbot	Apple’s dangerous game - The Washington Post	[00:22]
Duffer1	govt will just invoke patriot act and require them to backdoor it	[00:24]
mthreat	From two days ago: https://twitter.com/alansilbert/status/512344713995628545	[00:26]
assbot	Double bottom? /hashtag/oversold?src=hash /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash	[00:26]
mthreat	That's the problem with double bottoms... they always look like double bottoms at first.	[00:27]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 111 @ 0.14267264 = 15.8367 BTC [-] {8}	[00:29]
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BingoBoingo	!up tatonaplane	[00:30]
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tatonaplane	dude that apple article...	[00:31]
BingoBoingo	Dude, you are on a plane	[00:31]
tatonaplane	I thought unwashed reading bitcoinmagazine for a sec	[00:31]
tatonaplane	lol	[00:31]
tatonaplane	unwashed=I was	[00:32]
ben_vulpes	zidarski on apple's seekyooritee: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=3875#more-3875	[00:33]
assbot	Your iOS 8 Data is Not Beyond Law Enforcement’s Reach… Yet. \| Jonathan Zdziarski's Domain	[00:33]
ben_vulpes	nb, have not read yet	[00:33]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40719 @ 0.00074981 = 30.5315 BTC [-] {2}	[00:47]
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dub	like apple user doesnt secretly want her nude selfies leaked online	[01:10]
mod6	ya srsly	[01:10]
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[]bot	Bet placed: 5 BTC for No on "Billion dollar bet?" http://bitbet.us/bet/1047/ Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 17(Y):83(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.06 BTC. Current weight: 99,913.	[01:14]
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penguirker	New blog post: http://www.bcoinnews.com/bitcoin-betting-site-bitbet-us/	[01:23]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39200 @ 0.00074923 = 29.3698 BTC [-] {2}	[01:48]
penguirker	New blog post: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/09/19/the-newest-biggest/	[01:58]
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BingoBoingo	http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/msg04823.html	[02:01]
assbot	Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)	[02:01]
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mircea_popescu	That's the problem with double bottoms... they always look like double bottoms at first. << word.	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	wtf is scoop.it	[02:06]
mircea_popescu	like apple user doesnt secretly want her nude selfies leaked online << you mean the photoshopped nudies hackers obsessed with her made ?	[02:07]
BingoBoingo	%p	[02:09]
atcbot	>> No data returned from CoinMiner.net << [PityThePool Hashrate]: 168.59 GH/s [iSpace Pool Hashrate]: 1.16 TH/s	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla http://bitbet.us/bet/1046/gold-above-1200-on-november-1st/#c3959 ?	[02:10]
assbot	BitBet - Gold above $1200 on November 1st :: 0.06 B (10%) on Yes, 0.54 B (90%) on No \| closing in 4 weeks 1 day\| weight: 99`341 (100`000 to 1)	[02:10]
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kakobrekla	what, they are right there?	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	ah my bad	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	so BABA mkt cap close to 1/4 trillion ?	[02:13]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 14 @ 0.064 = 0.896 BTC [-]	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	who knew we'll live in the time of such richness.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	i remember seeing films which thought 1mn dollars was a fabulous reward	[02:14]
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mircea_popescu	!up Jamesonwa	[02:21]
-assbot-	You voiced Jamesonwa for 30 minutes.	[02:21]
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BingoBoingo	I'm off for a bit. If I'm not back by Monday... maybe worry I've been captured.	[02:21]
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mats_cd03	kek	[02:30]
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kakobrekla	http://bitzuma.com/posts/blockchain-info-paper-backup-stores-private-keys-in-the-browser-history/	[02:52]
assbot	Blockchain.info Paper Backup Stores Private Keys in the Browser History - Bitzuma	[02:52]
kakobrekla	hehe	[02:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15650 @ 0.0007494 = 11.7281 BTC [+]	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	web wallets are such a winningful idea.	[02:56]
ben_vulpes	get outa hea!	[02:57]
kakobrekla	seems ok that bitzuma, on the first glance	[02:59]
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mircea_popescu	http://globaldatingdiaries.com/2014/05/15/disastrous-dating-in-buenos-aires-argentina-2008-edition/ << this is hysterical.	[03:18]
assbot	Disastrous Dating in Buenos Aires, Argentina: 2008 edition \| Global Dating Diaries	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	us chick in a car with a stud that outruns the cops, she has something to bitch about.	[03:19]
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mircea_popescu	bonus points for strategically covering behind purse pic.	[03:21]
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gernika	gilgames1ugga Ginux_ GNULinuxGuy go1111111 Graet gribble GSpotAssassin___ Guest50769 Guest84681______ Guest91780 guntha_ guruvan gustaf	[03:29]
gernika	gilgames1ugga Ginux_ GNULinuxGuy go1111111 Graet gribble GSpotAssassin___ Guest50769 Guest84681______ Guest91780 guntha_ guruvan gustaf	[03:29]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23300 @ 0.0007494 = 17.461 BTC [+]	[03:40]
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mircea_popescu	so no lilo day huh.	[03:51]
asciilifeform	http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/d/a/dargot/_eres.jpg	[03:53]
asciilifeform	^ 'heresy - it hurts.'	[03:53]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.0007494 = 15.4751 BTC [+]	[03:58]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 930 @ 0.00075 = 0.6975 BTC [+]	[04:25]
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decimation	http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-reorgs-its-trustworthy-computing-group-cuts-some-staff-7000033878/ << microsoft seekyourity	[04:50]
assbot	Microsoft reorgs its Trustworthy Computing group; cuts some staff \| ZDNet	[04:50]
decimation	the mind reels. one wonders who the patron of the said 'trustworthy computing group' would be... and why they are no longer calling the tunes?	[04:51]
asciilifeform	decimation: easy riddle. 'fritz chip' was finished, shipped, now ubiquitous. no more need for group.	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you know the story with the guy hired to make the best church ever	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	then killed when done	[04:52]
asciilifeform	a la egyptians	[04:52]
asciilifeform	or the traditional 'they poked the architect's eyes out'	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	so i joined all other bitcoin channels. (from http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&chat=bitcoin )	[04:53]
assbot	Bitcoin - Chat Rooms on IRC Network freenode - Bitcoin, Currencies - irc.netsplit.de	[04:53]
decimation	There is indeed a relationship between the Microsoft Trustworthy Computer Group and the Trusted Computing Group http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/trusted-computing-conference-announces-microsoft-trusted-computing-group-wave-systems-1824245.htm	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	every fucking thing is dead. an hour and 0 content except for btc-pricetalk which is 100% derpage overdrive	[04:54]
assbot	The Trusted Computing Conference Announces Microsoft, the Trusted Computing Group and Wave Systems Corp. as Diamond Sponsors	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	diamond eh	[04:54]
asciilifeform	every fucking thing is dead << i started out in perhaps 4 different ones, stayed here because alive.	[04:54]
decimation	Trusted computing group is indeed the author of the 'fritz chip' specs http://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/resources/tpm_main_specification	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	decimation if you're into humint, follow where the employees "let off" go.	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	roughly the same as following marker iodine through a body.	[04:55]
asciilifeform	who really believes they were let free into the world.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	anyway, an easily overlooked point about bitcoin is that it's well proven we can make terrorist computers	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	should idiocy a la tcg actually arrive to critical mass	[04:56]
asciilifeform	since 'tutankhamon' solution was presumably not used - then stowed away elsewhere.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	that threat alone is enough to prevent successful adoption.	[04:57]
decimation	The problem that usg has is that they would have to get china to buy into whatever 'secure computing' solution they want to push	[04:58]
asciilifeform	fritz chip carries on as a diversion only, not an honest effort. the folks in usg with remaining working neurons realized after 'clipper' that a plainly labelled bull's eye - is dumb.	[04:58]
asciilifeform	diffuse poison - smarter.	[04:58]
asciilifeform	analogous situation from history:	[05:02]
asciilifeform	in early nukes, there was no lock.	[05:02]
asciilifeform	when (americans - afaik, no one else) felt a desire for locks, the first such took the form of little 'safes', modules similar to car ignition boxes of the time.	[05:02]
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asciilifeform	this was a threadbare solution, for obvious reasons - easy to spot where 'the goods' sit; know where to 'hotwire.'	[05:03]
asciilifeform	so then final lock was placed as a turd in the fissile core (in fusion nukes, fissile initiator, almost same)	[05:04]
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mats_cd03	http://www.rense.com/general44/soros.htm >> jews	[05:04]
decimation	http://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/iccc/ICCC_arc/	[05:04]
asciilifeform	in such a way that the turd would interfere with proper operation unless fed the correct magic	[05:04]
mats_cd03	assbot dead?	[05:04]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.0007494 = 9.5174 BTC [+]	[05:04]
asciilifeform	and, being where it is, would neither be apparent nor easily reached by an enemy.	[05:04]
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mats_cd03	it just occurred to me how much of a fight btc is going to be in for with the usd over the next decade	[05:05]
decimation	asciilifeform: the analogous situation with computers is buried inside the silicon of course	[05:05]
mats_cd03	i mean, btc will win regardless, but... if buttstamp and co were able to dump btc with so few coins	[05:05]
mats_cd03	what can they do with 400k	[05:06]
decimation	mats_cd03: we are still in the minor leagues it's true	[05:06]
asciilifeform	decimation: right. why place 'fritz chip' as a distinct physical bugger, where it is both apparent and easily manipulated.	[05:06]
mats_cd03	at this juncture i think 30 BTCUSD is not infeasible	[05:06]
asciilifeform	why not 0.30	[05:07]
kakobrekla	wont go below 2.	[05:09]
asciilifeform	at 2 kakobrekla sells his airplane and buys the entire lot ?	[05:10]
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kakobrekla	me - no. someone else - yes.	[05:10]
asciilifeform	point re: 0.30 etc is that if the 'tame' exchanges are sufficiently decoupled from physical reality, then there is no bottom.	[05:10]
mats_cd03	i for one would buy thousands of btc if it went to 0.3, and im sure many in this channel would too. it'd hasten the demise of some common enemies	[05:10]
asciilifeform	in that you won't be let through the door to buy up the cheapo coin	[05:11]
nubbins`	!s warrant canary	[05:11]
assbot	5 results for 'warrant canary' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=warrant+canary	[05:11]
nubbins`	ah	[05:11]
kakobrekla	if you cant buy it, price is irrelevant	[05:13]
asciilifeform	correct	[05:13]
nubbins`	0-249	[05:13]
decimation	if you guys really think that the exchanges are 'decoupled with reality' then you should buy while its cheap, right?	[05:13]
kakobrekla	so, it decouples itself from otc	[05:13]
asciilifeform	but an 'official' price will exist, if only for the consumption of the faux btc press	[05:13]
kakobrekla	like gox decoupled from stamp	[05:13]
mats_cd03	perhaps they believe that it will get cheaper still.	[05:13]
kakobrekla	was it stamp 500 and gox 100 or something like that?	[05:14]
asciilifeform	buy while its cheap << go try and buy.	[05:14]
mats_cd03	even less at one point no?	[05:14]
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decimation	what is the usd price on -otc?	[05:15]
kakobrekla	afaik is still following the exchange rate	[05:15]
kakobrekla	i mean	[05:15]
kakobrekla	'the exchange rate'	[05:15]
nubbins`	^	[05:15]
nubbins`	bitstamp is the null argument ;D	[05:16]
mats_cd03	22:12:52 <+asciilifeform> buy while its cheap << go try and buy. << not a problem for anyone thats not american, i suppose.	[05:16]
decimation	if you find a mob who is all derping the same thing, is it a conspiracy or organic knowledge discovery?	[05:16]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 120 @ 0.00690002 = 0.828 BTC [+]	[05:16]
kakobrekla	nubbins` yeah but yuropeans are shy.	[05:16]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03: if you use an american-style exchange (afaik, all public exchanges track participants' meatspace identities in some way) you haven't really escaped from anything.	[05:17]
nubbins`	all the canadian exchanges require id	[05:17]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 331 @ 0.0104 = 3.4424 BTC [-] {2}	[05:17]
mats_cd03	there's knowing my identity, though. and then there's being able to touch me.	[05:17]
kakobrekla	if you can wire to EU than you can get btc in otc	[05:17]
kakobrekla	for us idk	[05:17]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03: know - today, touch - tomorrow.	[05:18]
mats_cd03	its okay, i have faith the usg will mismanage itself into oblivion long before the dollar fails from due course	[05:18]
nubbins`	taste - thursday	[05:18]
mats_cd03	you dont have to wait til thursday nubbins` ;)	[05:18]
nubbins`	;D	[05:18]
mats_cd03	you faggot.	[05:19]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03: usg is the only party you would like to keep from fully knowing how much you hold and what ?	[05:19]
nubbins`	hey now	[05:19]
mats_cd03	sorry, i'm rude	[05:19]
decimation	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756256/Coroner-bitcoin-exchange-CEO-committed-suicide.html	[05:19]
assbot	American Bitcoin exchange CEO, 28, researched suicide methods before jumping from a Singapore highrise due to 'work and personal issues' \| Daily Mail Online	[05:19]
mats_cd03	'bitcoin CEO'	[05:19]
nubbins`	gross, daily mail	[05:19]
kakobrekla	did he rm wallet.dat ?	[05:20]
decimation	are we saying that the new york times is respectable now?	[05:20]
mats_cd03	asciilifeform: i guess not. but, that would be the least of my problems if i lived in, say, cape verde.	[05:20]
kakobrekla	o wait, its a she	[05:20]
nubbins`	the new what times?	[05:20]
mats_cd03	although islands are not particularly good for hiding from usg.	[05:20]
kakobrekla	due to 'work and personal issues' < buttcoins take too long to load, imma jump !	[05:21]
decimation	"On February 10, Radtke posted a link to an essay entitled 'The Psychological Price of Entrepreneurship' and commented obliquely that 'Everything has it's price'. In comments posted on the day her death was announced, her friend Krystal Choo, who founded the online travel firm ZipTrip, said that 'This exact post has been killing me."	[05:21]
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asciilifeform	next year, after binge of dope in cia operative station: 'trial of cocaine baron takes bizarre turn after evidence - bag from his toilet tank - turns out to contain treatise on suicide methods. kilo of cocaine found in pocket of shitcoin ceo who jumped from tower.'	[05:21]
asciilifeform	so some fellow mixed up two parcels. happens.	[05:22]
nubbins`	decimation: related links: "15 smallest celebrity butts"	[05:22]
decimation	what is this 'price of entrepreneurship'? if your job sucks, leave? why jump out the window?	[05:23]
kakobrekla	that one personalized to you nubbins`	[05:23]
cazalla	i thought brock pierce knocked that chick off	[05:23]
nubbins`	lel	[05:23]
decimation	asciilifeform: in Singapore drug possession in sufficient quantity is punishable by death	[05:24]
decimation	no need to stage suicide	[05:24]
asciilifeform	decimation: folks can talk on the gallows.	[05:24]
asciilifeform	and in trial.	[05:24]
asciilifeform	wouldn't do.	[05:24]
asciilifeform	elementary - otherwise, why ever kill anyone, when you can frame them	[05:25]
decimation	I think it is more likely that some chinese mobsters got screwed	[05:25]
decimation	not that it really matters much to the deceased	[05:26]
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asciilifeform	whoever bumped off the girl, the Sg gov happily covers for him.	[05:27]
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mike_c	this is ancient news, yes?	[05:27]
asciilifeform	it being a tendril of the octopus in good standing (whatever appearances to the contrary) - why susprised.	[05:27]
asciilifeform	*surprised	[05:27]
decimation	yeah, the 'new news' is the coroner's report	[05:27]
asciilifeform	mike_c: the death - ancient news	[05:28]
mike_c	ah	[05:28]
decimation	which octopus is the question	[05:28]
mike_c	only 7 months for the coroner's report. efficient!	[05:28]
decimation	actually singapore is one of the most efficient governments in the world	[05:29]
asciilifeform	efficient - at what.	[05:29]
asciilifeform	the word 'efficient' alone is meaningless.	[05:29]
mike_c	efficient at examining dead bodies.	[05:29]
decimation	efficient at producing ambigous reports	[05:29]
nubbins`	efficient at don't chew gum	[05:31]
decimation	http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/man-climbs-white-house-fence-races-toward-mansion-before-being-seized/2014/09/19/1c3a96aa-4065-11e4-b0ea-8141703bbf6f_story.html	[05:31]
assbot	Man climbs White House fence; races toward mansion before being seized - The Washington Post	[05:31]
decimation	another volunteer for the gulag	[05:31]
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mats_cd03	a cry for help	[05:40]
decimation	hey asciilifeform, how do you 'type' russian? Do you use an X keyboard overlay?	[05:40]
asciilifeform	gtk input dialogue	[05:42]
asciilifeform	or, when quoting, ordinary paste.	[05:42]
decimation	ah interesting. I tried the 'german' overlay but I just found it really annoying ('tis a QWERTZ layout')	[05:44]
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mats_cd03	https://blog.malwarebytes.org/malvertising-2/2014/09/large-malvertising-campaign-under-way-involving-doubleclick-and-zedo/	[05:51]
assbot	Large malvertising campaign under way involving DoubleClick and Zedo \| Malwarebytes Unpacked	[05:51]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 28247 @ 0.00003549 = 1.0025 BTC [-] {11}	[05:54]
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decimation	another reason to use noscript I guess	[05:57]
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asciilifeform	http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/DOC_0006122432.pdf << censored official american 'intro' on lev theremin.	[06:15]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2804 @ 0.00072952 = 2.0456 BTC [-] {4}	[06:28]
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peterl	question about bitbet: are fees booked as income when the bets are placed or when the bets are resolved?	[06:30]
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mike_c	to put a different way, is all that brk money going out as divs this month? :)	[06:38]
peterl	yeah, that was what I was wondering?	[06:39]
peterl	but other bets have been heating up too	[06:39]
mike_c	monthly statements indicate it's when bets are resolved.	[06:39]
mike_c	http://trilema.com/2014/bitbet-sbbet-august-2014-statement/	[06:40]
assbot	BitBet (S.BBET) August 2014 Statement pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[06:40]
mike_c	says 442 BTC in bets, but 1.96 btc was income from bets resolved	[06:40]
peterl	aha, thanks	[06:40]
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mircea_popescu	peterl when resolved.	[06:42]
mircea_popescu	so yes bitbet is sitting on something like 30 btc in unrealised fees that will come in during the next ~6 months	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03: assbot dead? << well the logs were working	[06:43]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.14222727 = 1.5645 BTC [-] {3}	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03:it just occurred to me how much of a fight btc is going to be in for with the usd over the next decade < duh :)	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03: i for one would buy thousands of btc if it went to 0.3, and im sure many in this channel would too. it'd hasten the demise of some common enemies << thousands, srsly ?	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	i'd simply buy it all.	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla: like gox decoupled from stamp << pretty much	[06:45]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 8 @ 0.141 = 1.128 BTC [-]	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	decimation: if you find a mob who is all derping the same thing, is it a conspiracy or organic knowledge discovery? <<< it's the internet :D	[06:46]
peterl	you can't buy it all, the rest of us want a share too	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	jesus i missed all the fun	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	peterl kinda the point.	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03: its okay, i have faith the usg will mismanage itself into oblivion long before the dollar fails from due course << this is like hoping the heart will cease functioning long before the liver gives in. in reality, they're so interconnected their demise is a cvasi-simultaneous event willy-nilly.	[06:47]
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mircea_popescu	ugs can survive a coupla weeks with a dead currency ; currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg on whose faith and credit it is based.	[06:48]
mircea_popescu	assbot: American Bitcoin exchange CEO, 28, researched suicide methods before jumping from a Singapore highrise due to 'work and personal issues' \| Daily Mail Online <<< they forgot to mention what he read. it was http://trilema.com/2010/viata-suge-cum-ne-omoram/	[06:49]
assbot	Viata suge, cum ne omoram ? pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[06:49]
mircea_popescu	nubbins`: efficient at don't chew gum << win.	[06:51]
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decimation	dead usg << I find it amusing that folks like the20year think that owning some raw land is a defense against such cataclysms	[06:54]
decimation	because 'own' has been redefined to mean "the government gives you permission to do X"	[06:55]
mircea_popescu	well that depends.	[06:56]
mircea_popescu	in general the more liquid an asset is, the more likely requisitioned. land is hard to carry so often left with it's alleged owner.	[06:56]
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mircea_popescu	what else ? a stash of gold is not "govt gives you permission" ? 300 bucks in a wallet ?	[06:57]
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[]bot	Bet placed: 7.22 BTC for Yes on "Dolar Blue over 20 Argentine Pesos on or before Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8th)" http://bitbet.us/bet/1044/ Odds: 60(Y):40(N) by coin, 58(Y):42(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.43237601 BTC. Current weight: 92,710.	[07:05]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[18:07]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[18:07]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[18:07]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[18:07]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[18:08]
mircea_popescu	meh apparently #b4056df6691f8dc72e56302ddad345d65fead3ead9299609a826e2344eb63aa4 can't be a channel name.	[18:09]
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mircea_popescu	!up moriarty	[18:12]
-assbot-	You voiced moriarty for 30 minutes.	[18:12]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[18:12]
*	moriarty burps	[18:13]
mircea_popescu	lol	[18:13]
mircea_popescu	so apparently reddit libertarians have a freenode channel. ##austrians	[18:13]
moriarty	lol pseudo-libertarians more like	[18:14]
moriarty	i was grossly disappointed to say the least	[18:14]
moriarty	they're mostly minarchists	[18:14]
mircea_popescu	o ?	[18:14]
mircea_popescu	;;google minarchist	[18:14]
gribble	Minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...:	[18:14]
mircea_popescu	;;google minarchist -wikipedia	[18:14]
gribble	The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: ; minarchist on Tumblr: ; Difference Between Minarchist and Anarchist? - YouTube:	[18:14]
moriarty	well, half of them are minarchists, the other half are anarcho-capitalists	[18:14]
moriarty	so you could almost say they are the teaparty equivalents of libertarians	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	haha.	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	fwiw, i believe "free market" education to be plainly idiotic.	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	there's one language, it's purely conventional, this makes education purely arbitrary to begin with.	[18:15]
moriarty	what's your take on free market?	[18:16]
mircea_popescu	well i implement it wherever i can. seen the economy and sociology articles ?	[18:16]
moriarty	you believe educational flavour will change with linguistic medium?	[18:16]
moriarty	unfortunately not, link me?	[18:17]
mircea_popescu	well yes you know ? suppose zig ziglar sells a lot of books, and starts his own university, where he teaches kids words like "fail" don't exist.	[18:17]
mircea_popescu	you can't possibly allow change on the grounds of marketplace success like that.	[18:17]
mircea_popescu	it	[18:17]
mircea_popescu	s a fundamentally self defeating, socialist-driving approach.	[18:18]
xmj	hrm	[18:18]
xmj	moriarty: ancaps are boring	[18:18]
moriarty	xmj, it's an appealing ideology to be fair	[18:18]
mircea_popescu	moriarty > http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-sociology/ http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/	[18:18]
assbot	A complete theory of sociology pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[18:18]
xmj	moriarty: they talk, and talk, and push out academic papers- --- and never do antyhing.	[18:18]
assbot	A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[18:18]
xmj	moriarty: trust me, i've been one for three years, i'd know.	[18:18]
xmj	moriarty: much better to read moldbug, be evil and call yourself royalist.	[18:19]
xmj	NRx :3	[18:19]
mircea_popescu	o look, xmj still derping around on the basis of his 3 year experience. hai babee, how goes.	[18:20]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, Adam Smith is a classic if not a little dated, like most liberal arts field, perhaps it would be more helpful to consider more recent counterarguments like those by Jared Diamond	[18:21]
mircea_popescu	bring it ?	[18:21]
moriarty	but very nice article nevertheless, i haven't read something interesting in awhile :)	[18:21]
bounce	IMNSHO there's no universal magic perfect government size, so it comes down to choice. what do we want our government to do? well, maybe we could start a market to find out.	[18:22]
moriarty	Jared Diamond tries to take a holistic look into the apparently serendipitous distribution of wealth among nations	[18:22]
mircea_popescu	bounce the original idea of "voting with feet" as implemented in the us is exactly that.	[18:22]
mircea_popescu	let the us not be a federation of states but a marketplace of states.	[18:22]
moriarty	in his famous book, Guns, Germs and Steel	[18:22]
moriarty	:)	[18:22]
mircea_popescu	moriarty yeah but i mean, you can construct his argument and bring it at me see what happens	[18:22]
bounce	doesn't appear to've held up to the ages though.	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	well no, which is why celebrating traitors a la lincoln as some sort of national heroes is so mind boggling.	[18:23]
moriarty	xmj, lol moldbug is a blogger, i take it?	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	sorta like having stalin's statue in ukraina.	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	moriarty yeah he's the guy who spent 2012 insisting bitcoin can't survive, then started a bitcoin kiler of his own which we kiled	[18:23]
xmj	http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/	[18:24]
assbot	Unqualified Reservations	[18:24]
mircea_popescu	and is now doing i dunno what, but probably not much.	[18:24]
bounce	bit of a problem where all you get is package deals run by people who, because they run the show, suddenly have all sorts of entrenched interests and become vulnerable to all kinds and manners of coercion	[18:24]
xmj	that's moldbug	[18:24]
moriarty	xmj, i got routed to ##austrians from ##econometrics when someone made an observation that some of my comments leaned towards ancap tendencies, so i'm newer to the scene, although i've always found a blend of hayes/keynes economics to be most delightful	[18:24]
xmj	he's pioneered a good deal of the "reactosphere" -- neoreactionary blogosphere	[18:24]
mircea_popescu	bounce that bit seems contradictory. how can you coerce the entrenched ?	[18:24]
mircea_popescu	reddit's been trying to coerce me for ages, so what ?	[18:24]
bounce	because it goes both ways. fingers in pies everywhere, stuffed envelopes from everywhere	[18:25]
mircea_popescu	moriarty o you from chile ?	[18:26]
mircea_popescu	bounce so then not so entrenched ?	[18:26]
bounce	hm. probably a hairsplitting confusion here	[18:26]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, well, i'd try not to dilute his book into a one-liner, but essentially a blend of technological warfare i.e. guns, a serendipitous adaptability to germs via advances in medicine, and progress in transport hulls made out of steel, which arose incidentally from ideal farming conditions e.g. arable land which gave rise to a choice of livestock, was why the seemingly unequal	[18:26]
moriarty	distribution of wealth	[18:26]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, in short, first-mover advantage	[18:27]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work?	[18:27]
mircea_popescu	moriarty not the point to make a one liner, it's like chess. you construct his argument by asking me questions or w/e other discursive procedure you favour.	[18:27]
mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work? > http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/#comment-99232	[18:28]
assbot	A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[18:28]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, heh, well i made a fortune off bitcoin, but i never saw the point in holding a strong philosophical stance on the utility of cryptocurrencies	[18:28]
moriarty	xmj, thanks for the link	[18:28]
mircea_popescu	moriarty possibly because you didn't make a fortune large enough :)	[18:28]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas	[18:28]
moriarty	:)	[18:28]
xmj	moriarty: just beware, neoreaction is still considered "evil"	[18:29]
xmj	parts of it are genuinely racist (they lablel themselves "human biodiversity" HBD)	[18:29]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, BBU as in Birkbeck?	[18:30]
mircea_popescu	;;google babes-bolyiai university	[18:30]
gribble	UBB , Babes Bolyai University: ; UBB , Universitatea Babes Bolyai: ; Constantin Craciun profiles \| LinkedIn:	[18:30]
mircea_popescu	that thing	[18:30]
mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas << nah it was because i was just laughing my ass off at this "galt's gulch" disaster.	[18:31]
moriarty	xmj, neoreaction from first glance off the internet appears to be one of those anachronistic romanticism :)	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	wanted to lol with a ;ocal.	[18:31]
moriarty	xmj, correct me if i'm wrong	[18:31]
xmj	no that's the neo part	[18:31]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol my fortune was in seven figures, so large enough for me :P	[18:31]
xmj	we are going to do it better	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	!b 1	[18:31]
assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0J14F6T.txt )	[18:32]
xmj	moriarty: it's funny. i've seen the progression AnCap -> NRx happen a few times	[18:32]
xmj	and, some of the ideas particularly appeal. like, not having the social welfare state fund the procreation of stupid people, because... they're stupid.	[18:33]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, anyone gullible enough to believe the authenticity or originality of Ayn Rand deserves to live in Galt Gulch :P	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	moriarty you're wioth the "it's the protocols of sion v2.0" point of view ?	[18:33]
moriarty	Ayn Rand is the philosophical equivalent (you would know this better than me), of Nassim Taleb of the statistical world	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	i happen to be a taleb fan actually	[18:34]
moriarty	a popularist of sorts, amalgamating opinions of the past and attempting to take credit for it	[18:34]
xmj	nah	[18:34]
moriarty	there's nothing new in both their works, for the inclined	[18:34]
xmj	ayn rand did have a few cool things	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	yeah well, i don't particularly favour new stuff. what exactly is ever new.	[18:34]
moriarty	xmj, how much better are the neoreactionaries aiming for? :P	[18:34]
xmj	to infinity	[18:35]
xmj	and beyond!	[18:35]
moriarty	xmj, i am fully for stupid people not procreating, but i suppose that threatens the sanctity of humanity above the animal kingdom, we seem still unable to fully accept the depedestalisation of homo sapiens	[18:36]
xmj	well yeah, people put all sorts of things on pedestals	[18:37]
xmj	gods, women, mammon..	[18:37]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, well, i guess it was easier being a popular philosopher or statistician in the past, when one did not have to read countless landmark academic papers in order to keep up with the conversation, as one has to these days	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	i don't think the conversation is worth keeping up with.	[18:37]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, so i suppose we ought to thank the popularists for at least reminiscing some of the past arguments for the popular public to enjoy a flavour of, and perhaps bring some publicity to what would otherwise be dusty fields relegated to the backshelves of some university library	[18:37]
bounce	.oO( nimrod faltered )	[18:38]
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moriarty	mircea_popescu, i guess i can see why from a philosophical sense, if one has inclinations towards the literal and the objective	[18:39]
bounce	well, regurgitating old ideas like they're your own smacks of intelectual dishonesty. do it without that and shed some detractors.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	moriarty looky, if the conversation were worth following, then 30 years of the finance industry following it would show some benefit for it.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile we got... gauss copulae.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	i can be well spared the "conversation" of pointless academics trying to publish or perish. not worth following.	[18:39]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've read works by Lacan and such, and i feel almost as if i have to delve into some metaphysical reality, and not take them at their analogies seriously, especially when they try to use precise notions from mathematics to attempt to build some sort of bridge to their reality	[18:39]
moriarty	but i'm an armchair philosopher so what do i know :)	[18:39]
xmj	bingo so am i	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	and the argument that taleb is "popularizing" brought by butthurt but otherwise worthless "statisticians" in their own estimation neatly mirrors the same criticism brought by "economists" in their own estimation re buffett.	[18:40]
xmj	moriarty: who stated taleb's black swan before him?	[18:40]
moriarty	plus i've been unduely influenced by the work of Sokal, Bricmont, i.e. Fashionable Nonsense	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	in point of fact, there exists no intellectualy respectable economist outside of buffett that lived in the 2nd part of the 20th century.	[18:40]
xmj	or, well, who gave it a name? likewise for antifragility	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	i suspect this is true to a lesser degree in statistics.	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	lacan is a total idiot, if he were a woman he'd be irigaray.	[18:41]
mircea_popescu	complexity is not a good predictor of quality. not in the ontos, not in the gnosis.	[18:41]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, actually, the conversations in finance are not as cohesive unfortunately as in other fields, so the flipside of that is today the popular strand of conversation happens to be a fork that the more seriously inclined would not fully agree with or find it a bit juvenile	[18:41]
mircea_popescu	fair enough.	[18:42]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, finance or economics, is closely linked to the political nuances of a country, so whenever one reads journals by personalities like Paul Krugman, nobelist though he may be, i always read it keeping in mind his political proclivities	[18:42]
moriarty	because of his governmental appointments etc	[18:42]
mircea_popescu	i can't read him, it's like going to a museum of children "artwork"	[18:42]
mircea_popescu	fucking boringly stupid.	[18:43]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, an example of a less biased conversation would be one by Mandelbrot	[18:43]
*	pete_dushenski (~pete_dush@unaffiliated/pete-dushenski/x-8158685) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:43]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, http://www.amazon.com/The-Misbehavior-Markets-Financial-Turbulence/dp/0465043577	[18:43]
assbot	The Misbehavior of Markets: A Fractal View of Financial Turbulence: Benoit Mandelbrot, Richard L. Hudson: 9780465043576: Amazon.com: Books	[18:43]
moriarty	that is an excellent piece of work	[18:43]
xmj	Mandelbrot is brilliant, yes	[18:43]
xmj	also his book Fractals and Scaling in Finance	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	certainly, mandelbrot is not bad.	[18:43]
*	sardan_ (~sardan@186.151.60.139) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:43]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[18:43]
bounce	how about paul ormerod?	[18:44]
*	assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	!up sardan_	[18:45]
-assbot-	You voiced sardan_ for 30 minutes.	[18:45]
*	assbot gives voice to sardan_	[18:45]
sardan_	thx :)	[18:45]
mircea_popescu	you're welcome. who're you ?	[18:46]
sardan_	giotto :)	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	lolk	[18:47]
sardan_	I sent you an email by the way, not sure if you received it (regarding a domain)	[18:48]
bounce	mpoe ated it	[18:49]
sardan_	:(	[18:49]
sardan_	anyone would be interested in purchasing/doing something with the domain BitcoinCasino.com?	[18:51]
pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg << more complicated. reichsmark outlived reich by a few years (until occupying armies got their shit together) << didn't roman coinage remain in some limited use into the middle ages because of lack of alternative?	[18:51]
bounce	ask in -otc	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	sardan_ what domain ?	[18:51]
sardan_	bitcoincasino.com	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	ah. the consensus here is that domains are worth about 10 bux,	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	and recently i have been giving them away for free, so.	[18:51]
sardan_	ok :)	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski not the same pressures. i meant usg specifically.	[18:52]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: so the usians have alternatives? or...	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	nah, the reichmark wasn't nearly as integrated.	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	integration <-> stability.	[18:53]
pete_dushenski	a ok.	[18:54]
pete_dushenski	so then us scrip should have some life left in it	[18:54]
xmj	moriarty: do you consider yourself an ancap?	[18:54]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu to the extent that it's highly integrated and there are few obvious alternatives	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	scrip will definitely outlive the usd.	[18:55]
pete_dushenski	not that the row will much care what happens in somalia	[18:55]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: sorta the way roman coinage did, eh?	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	that was very unintegrated.	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	cause metallic, see ?	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	integration, for the record, is simply a measure of mutual dependence. think in terms of a couple. the more things they do together, te more integrated they are.	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	a metal coin is literally like a whore. 0 integration, she fucks random other men.	[18:57]
pete_dushenski	mm ok	[18:58]
pete_dushenski	whereas usd is now basically a digital token	[18:58]
mircea_popescu	pretty much entirely integrated. no policy in the us can be implemented without control of the currency.	[18:59]
mircea_popescu	hence the earlier discussion with decimation about how much the nist asked him to pay, and how it's basically "come with a note from stalin"	[18:59]
pete_dushenski	lol and cad is even worse, i think 4% paper vs. 11% for usd	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	paper is a minor nook anyway, in the grand scheme of things.	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla here ?	[19:01]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: well what other nooks are there?	[19:01]
pete_dushenski	other than btc	[19:01]
mircea_popescu	for instance it being metallic is a huge gulf. arguably pegging it to btc even huger.	[19:01]
mircea_popescu	disallowing sharing of financial information is a sizeable nook	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	(basically, making kyc illegal)	[19:02]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 5.47394288 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 476 satoshi per share	[19:02]
kakobrekla	si senor	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	basically, a government trending to totalitarism will correctly perceive as threats all protections from integration	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	this flows from the definition	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla this email, wtf is it ? i do not comprehend, what ?	[19:02]
kakobrekla	nfi i think he emailed to too now	[19:03]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: right. total must be… total	[19:03]
kakobrekla	!up moriarty	[19:04]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[19:04]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.27202039 BTC to 15`091 shares, 8429 satoshi per share	[19:05]
mircea_popescu	whatevers. i replied and that's that.	[19:06]
moriarty	bounce, what would you recommend from paul ormerod?	[19:06]
moriarty	xmj, well black swan for starters has its roots in the classical Humean dilemma :) (i've referenced him because i know mircea_popescu would like it)	[19:06]
moriarty	sardan_, how much are you selling bitcoincasino.com for?	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	;;gettrust assbot moriarty	[19:06]
gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user moriarty: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=moriarty \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=moriarty \| Rated since: never	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	;;rate moriarty 1 some sort of libertarian or something.	[19:06]
gribble	Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.	[19:06]
kakobrekla	>Kako, please forward idiots to #bitcoin-assets instead of my inbox. < fyi did not such thing.	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	moriarty how about you get in thre wot	[19:06]
kakobrekla	no*	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla i know, but it was for his benefit. give the man a chance to redeem himself.	[19:07]
sardan_	moriarty, Make me an offer :-)	[19:07]
moriarty	xmj, no, i don't tend to look at myself dichotomously, i'm an assembly of aspects from both sides of the political and socioeconomical spectrum, left and right as they conveniently classify it	[19:07]
kakobrekla	ah k.	[19:07]
moriarty	xmj, but there is an appeal to anarchist capitalism, once you look past the easy conclusion that capitalism requires some sort of legal framework in which to operate in, so not fully anarchist, but then looking past that, they do have interesting opinions	[19:08]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've fully liquidated my bitcoin position, so i guess no motivation for me to join WoT now	[19:08]
moriarty	;;gettrust assbot mircea_popescu	[19:08]
gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask mircea_popescu!~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu. Trust relationship from user assbot to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 26 via 26 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=mircea_popescu \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=mircea_popescu \| Rated since: Fri Jul 22 11:04:26 2011	[19:08]
pete_dushenski	moriarty: you crazy	[19:09]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've done a sybil on localbitcoins though :) just so i don't get pinned down as the guy with shitloads of bitcoin	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	moriarty it allows you to get voice here.	[19:09]
moriarty	sardan_, an offer, $10 :-)	[19:11]
xmj	moriarty: here's the problem	[19:12]
sardan_	moriarty, To low :-)	[19:12]
xmj	moriarty: there will /always/ be demand for state and redistribution, because the lower 51% will want to loot the upper 49%	[19:12]
sardan_	I mean too low	[19:13]
xmj	it's logical -- as long as they can get away with it they'll do it, and use mob force.	[19:13]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, that would not be very meaningful these days considering how some no longer buy/sell bitcoin unfortunately	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	so what, stick to the fleshlight and egg custard crowd over on austrians ? i guess can do that, sure.	[19:14]
xmj	moriarty: and as much as the ancapists a la kinsella and molyneux would like to believe, they cannot overcome this with non-monopolist private security agencies	[19:14]
moriarty	xmj, sure, but demands of any kind play a subservient role to the sanctity of the constitution, and if ancaps were to form a nation, they could very well enshrine those principles in there	[19:14]
moriarty	xmj, the way i see it, you like a country's constitution, join it, no? then emigrate :)	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	enshrine my foot.	[19:14]
xmj	moriarty: ancap constitution... what?	[19:14]
xmj	moriarty: yes, that is how it works (exit vs voice), but most people are already in the land you'd like ancapistan to be	[19:15]
*	assbot removes voice from sardan_	[19:15]
moriarty	xmj, i don't take it too literally, anything taken in its pure definition does not exist in reality, there are no socialist or capitalist society today	[19:15]
moriarty	it's always a blend	[19:15]
xmj	i take /that one/ binary	[19:16]
moriarty	xmj, a balance between welfare state and free markets, and how much of a blend depends partly on the origins of the country, a la its constitution, and the culture trickled top down from previous political establishments a la informal variant of the constitution	[19:16]
xmj	either anarcho-capitalism or socialism. social welfare states have come to be sooooo sooo sooo socialist that heck, Lenin would be proud.	[19:17]
moriarty	so china may be "capitalist" but its roots and the one-party system would ensure that their brand of capitalism would almost likely never converge to american capitalism	[19:17]
moriarty	it's hard to be free market, when the party dictates who lives and who doesn't :P	[19:17]
bounce	just to be clear, what do you understand to be the defining properties of a welfare state?	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	so i go to #electronics to see if either asciilifeform or diametric hang in there. they have a bot, i do !help, it says	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	Usage: !wire , gives stats for copper wire of size	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	i nearly fainted.	[19:18]
moriarty	bounce, any form of redistribution from the haves to the have-nots is welfare, from medical insurance to unemployment benefits	[19:19]
chetty	well these days its more like from the have nots to the haves	[19:19]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, like it or not, a country has got to stand up for the reason it was founded, otherwise, there is little point to be loyal or even nationalistic about it, when it can be hijacked philosophically	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	moriarty no country will stand up for a deal.	[19:20]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i see countries as clubs, that if you do not like the constitution or culture, then you are welcome to join something more to your inclination	[19:20]
bounce	so, a government that takes in taxes but does not give handouts isn't a welfare state?	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	moriarty this is a nice theory anyone would subscribe to. both those who will and those who won't. after which, disaster of commons.	[19:21]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, of course this ideal is currently impeded by what i consider to be a gross infraction on one of the basic human rights, that is the freedom of movement across borders, one trivialised by border control and such	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	the only winning move being not to waste your own resources to defend their shit.	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	not currently. permanently. not by anything but simple game theory.	[19:21]
moriarty	bounce, well, in the most direct form, but you can always indirectly do welfare, free education for instance, is one such example	[19:22]
moriarty	bounce, food subsidies is another example	[19:22]
moriarty	bounce, fuel subsidies	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	o.O	[19:22]
moriarty	then of course we can get a little more creative and consider public transportation too, to be a form of welfare	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	now that's insane. why subsidize energy expenditure ?!	[19:22]
moriarty	public transportation is never a profitmaking venture	[19:22]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, to help the poverty stricken	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	fuck them ?	[19:23]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, inefficient, i know, but hey some countries do it	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	they can sit on a chair.	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	nol but the free education thing i can see. if you're going to teach everyone the same thing (language) might as well do it for free. your show, your tickets.	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	but energy ?! no. just... no way.	[19:23]
moriarty	well, free education if mandated, sure, but it exists along a free market system that elitises education in a freemium sense :)	[19:24]
moriarty	a la free online education via the MIT initiative, OCW, noble though it is, vis-a-vis the good ol' paid education you get face-to-face	[19:24]
mircea_popescu	actually free mandatory quoted education is imo the way to do education. 100% 4 years, if any kid fails it shoot him. 99.x% 8 years, if any kid fails he is not allowed to ever have sex with another. no matter what.	[19:25]
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mircea_popescu	then 50% 12 years and 5 to 10% 16 years. and that's it.	[19:25]
bounce	you know what's going to happen: everyone passes.	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	you can not run for office unless in one of these two categories.	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	maybe. but if the kids can't read, shoot the teachers.	[19:26]
moriarty	bounce has a point even though mircea_popescu's intentions are noble	[19:26]
moriarty	it happened in the UK unfortunately	[19:26]
moriarty	we had a lofty target of 50% tertiary literacy rates	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	not target. maximum.	[19:26]
moriarty	and then a recent mass study conducted indicated social mobility did not happen despite more people than ever having university degrees	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	quota as in, no more than this may pass no matter what happens.	[19:26]
moriarty	i see	[19:27]
moriarty	that sounds like singapore then, a social experiment in of itself	[19:27]
bounce	the degrees dropped in difficulty AND value?	[19:27]
moriarty	bounce, well, not across the board	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	yeah well this socialistoid idiocy... "currently college ed people are upwards movbile let's give degrees to anyone wait that changes mobiliy ?!?!!?" is like, become a woman, they liove longer.	[19:27]
moriarty	bounce, but you had universities catering across the spectrum of students	[19:27]
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moriarty	bounce, alongside funding opportunities	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	the observed property is based on not having been tampered with	[19:27]
moriarty	bounce, it is cheaper to go to some universities than others, geographically as well as prestige-wise	[19:28]
decimation	Vexual: The clock is going to drive various rf devices & data capture systems	[19:28]
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moriarty	mircea_popescu, haha good point	[19:28]
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bounce	bit of a fail that policy makers tend to forget that little detail	[19:29]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, singapore took your opinion to a slightly more extreme point, their university application form consists of a ranking of six majors, and the state then allocates a major to you based on a threshold that is demand-adjusted	[19:29]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, so if photography has low demand but high applicant rates, then most of them get rejected	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	sensible.	[19:30]
moriarty	yep, but leaves little room for individualism	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	kinda how romania/eastern europe worked too.	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	then 20 years later, romania dominates the internet.	[19:30]
moriarty	imagine, if you wrote down six majors you thought you wanted to do in order of preference, only to be given your last choice	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	in spte of being what, 0.3% of word pop	[19:30]
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moriarty	that would be painful, or not since i'm looking at it from a western point of view :)	[19:30]
moriarty	i imagine singaporeans must be accustomed to not getting their way at anything	[19:30]
moriarty	and the government decides their whole lives for them	[19:30]
moriarty	in the UK, the same thing happens, but it is done more surreptiously so the pain is less obvious	[19:32]
moriarty	you are given six choices of universities for ideally the same major (you could even mix and match majors but let's take the simpler assumption)	[19:32]
moriarty	so the threshold is adjusted based on your choice, your funeral	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	moriarty it's not "the governemnt" any more than it's gravity.	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	you wanna jump higher ? train, bitch.	[19:33]
moriarty	if you take a highly subscribed course but you are not cream of the crop, then you are assigned a less serious university, and you may harbour fantasies of serendipity working in your favour come working world time, but that wouldn't logically happen	[19:33]
bounce	bureaucrazies are heavy but not gravity themselves	[19:33]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	what, lol ?	[19:34]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	in the 80s romania there used to be about 100 18yo girls a year hanging themselves for having sucked at tests.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	seems a perfect way to run a country.	[19:34]
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asciilifeform	japan - valhalla ?	[19:35]
*	TheNewDeal is now known as Guest47540	[19:35]
asciilifeform	!up moriarty	[19:35]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[19:35]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i guess in a way you could say singapore is being "kinder" by telling you upfront that if you take that course, your employment chances will be fucked, so let's help make this idiot-proof as possible by barring you from choosing that road	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	oyu're not barred. you simply don't qualify.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	suck it and change.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	any system that forces change upon the individual is going to win longterm	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	because that's the cheapest thing to change.	[19:36]
*	Guest47540 is now known as TheNewDeal	[19:36]
asciilifeform	actually - cheapest thing to change, assuming 'chose parents well' - is system.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[19:37]
asciilifeform	hence late-soviet era gold medals given to favourite sons.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	systems can not exist but in a very narrow space of stable nodes.	[19:37]
moriarty	in singapore, there is no room for change though, there is no automatic pass up the high school ladder, if you fail or do poorly, you get streamlined to the lower education tier	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	whereas the space for individuals is immensely more dense.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	so, the ilusion of having "changed" the system may be cheaply attained	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	but all you've done is upset a pendulum	[19:37]
moriarty	their entire education system is tiered, with forks occuring after junior school, after high school, and after pre-university	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	moriarty you ever read the gpg contracts article ?	[19:37]
moriarty	if you're not good enough, you get streamed to what essentially pigeonholes you to the blue-collar stream	[19:38]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, remind me?	[19:38]
mircea_popescu	moriarty http://trilema.com/2012/gpg-contracts/ <. the tl;dr being, don't change after you fucked up. change before.	[19:39]
assbot	GPG contracts pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	nature doesn't come with a "you took that path and a lion ate you, would you like to retry yes/no/cancel"	[19:39]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, that's a good point, i like singapore's system too	[19:40]
bounce	we do a lot better than nature by allowing learning from mistakes and therefore retries	[19:40]
moriarty	although if one wants to be sappy about it, life does throw curveballs at some individuals more than others	[19:40]
moriarty	and the singaporean social experiment assumes implicitly that curveballs are totally within the individual's control	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	bounce hard retries offer no promise of learning from mistakes.	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	they instead allow mistakes to be carried forth	[19:40]
*	assbot gives voice to TheNewDeal	[19:41]
TheNewDeal	;;seen TomServo	[19:41]
gribble	TomServo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: Shouldn't this supposed ETH dump be coming from: https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2 ?	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	which is why hard amiga games in the 80s were a lot better than the crap today,	[19:41]
moriarty	in essence, there are negative externalities based on the draw of the hand, where some individuals never get tested on their fortitude in dealing with familial crises, and others do	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	and which is why a fundamentally idiotic game model (the platformer, the scroller, etc) were still loads of fun	[19:41]
moriarty	so the singaporean model discounts earlier on, individuals that come from more fractious backgrounds, by tiering them very early on	[19:41]
moriarty	without any ladder back up	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	moriarty no. it encourages backgrounds to not be fracturous	[19:41]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i can't have been the only boy who wanted a game machine that would physically damage you when you fuck up...	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	under punishment of marginalkising their fruits.	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	which is why all east european families were VERY stable	[19:42]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, principal-agency dilemma	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well i was more reflexive in my wishes.	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	moriarty not a dilemma in any sense.	[19:42]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, in short, the motivations of the parents are not entirely aligned with the children	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "i wish they kiled idiots so then they'd be real cheap and i could get them all"	[19:42]
TheNewDeal	;;later tell TomServo has arrived. I can meet today (9/20) or tomorrow (9/21). Otherwise it's going to be a couple weeks	[19:42]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	moriarty why is this a problem ?	[19:42]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, it does not affect the parent as negatively as the offspring, particularly if the parent is not emotionally vulnerable to its offspring :)	[19:43]
mircea_popescu	it does, yes.	[19:43]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, but you're right, it makes for an interesting society experiment	[19:43]
TheNewDeal	;;ticker	[19:43]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 427.0, Best ask: 427.29, Bid-ask spread: 0.29000, Last trade: 427.29, 24 hour volume: 21262.91819002, 24 hour low: 390.0, 24 hour high: 431.11, 24 hour vwap: 408.789480514	[19:43]
mircea_popescu	it's just that the parent may not whine as audibly as the child. but you can't rule by whining	[19:43]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, cost of living is high in singapore, so those without the proper education tend to resort to less conducive means to make a living	[19:43]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, think social escorts, etc	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	perfect.	[19:44]
moriarty	haha :P	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	the problem with us noobs is that instead of sucking cock and being humble, they reddit.	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	what if that entire population were put in its place ?	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	suddenly the us dollar could compete with the singapore dollar.	[19:44]
asciilifeform	biodiesel ?	[19:44]
moriarty	there is truth to that	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "social escorts" is a much better euphemism,.	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	aka "beg someone much better than you to tolerate your presence"	[19:45]
moriarty	lol	[19:45]
moriarty	anyway, i think education is one of the nice ways the elites of society has deceived the havenots :) i think xmj earlier pointed out about how the 51% would overthrow the 49%	[19:45]
mircea_popescu	no, they wouldn't.	[19:46]
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moriarty	but see, if you're elite, then you would have more conniving methods of undermining the other side of society	[19:46]
mircea_popescu	this is so much derpage reflecting the extremely narrow case of where a bunch of people worked with their muscles.	[19:46]
mircea_popescu	the intellect-muscle debate has nothing to do with the loser-winner debate	[19:46]
moriarty	because education alone is not the key to gainful employment, it helps if you have strong connections and networking	[19:46]
mircea_popescu	even if british society in the 1800s miscalculate dthe value of muscle.	[19:46]
xmj	hmh	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	but in point of fact, the 51% of which idiots like xmj are part would NEVER overcome the 49% which includes me.	[19:47]
xmj	moriarty: education is mostly a signal	[19:47]
moriarty	not that i'm griping about connections and such :P the way i see it, we inherit genes as we do connections	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	for the simple reason that he's an idiot. what's he going to do ? whine ?	[19:47]
bounce	oh hey, ancient roman patronage practices. would fit the us' crumbling empire elan	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	"ignore" me ?	[19:47]
xmj	signal of intelligence, as education is more costly for the less-intelligent	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	bounce quite.	[19:47]
moriarty	xmj, a signal that is second in importance to the signalling of connections	[19:47]
xmj	so for them it's an incentive to opt out earlier	[19:47]
moriarty	xmj, someone personally vouching for you is a far more powerful statement than an educational factory produced paper	[19:47]
bounce	too bad the us is really too prude for that, though	[19:47]
xmj	moriarty: certainly	[19:48]
xmj	moriarty: but do not underestimate the paper	[19:48]
moriarty	xmj, and that kind of connection comes inherited, not unlike genetic material	[19:48]
xmj	it's an ingenious way to signal ability	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	bounce or is it ?	[19:48]
bounce	japan still has those personal vouching things going on in contracts	[19:48]
xmj	moriarty: social class is inherited	[19:48]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, hehe	[19:48]
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mircea_popescu	seems to me the black guys are already doing it, and that may explain their preeminence over the prude whites.	[19:48]
bounce	it's still violence over nipples there	[19:48]
xmj	moriarty: one of the reason that is, is because intelligence is heritable and people cluster around their intelligence	[19:49]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i can see your proclivities towards the ancap notions	[19:49]
xmj	I <3 nipples.	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	they're not proclivities, i wrote the damned book :D	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	they just copied me badly.	[19:49]
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decimation	much time and attention in the us is devoted to making sure every last miscreant gets at least 50 chances to do good	[19:50]
moriarty	xmj, i agree, intelligence, beauty, the things that ultimately lead us to do what we want to do through meaningful employment, have lots of meaningless sex with as many beautiful people as possible	[19:51]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, haha	[19:51]
xmj	heh	[19:51]
mircea_popescu	decimation too much.	[19:51]
xmj	moriarty: really, sex drive is at the core of male achievement.	[19:51]
bounce	throw in all the people put in pre-trial jail and the numbers drop quite a lot	[19:52]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, well that's why all politicians are liars, in order to be a man of the people, you have to ascribe to philosophies you don't truly believe in to win them over, just so you can fuck them over later on, to protect your class, your clan and family	[19:52]
xmj	the church did a good job at reinforcing the already existing institution of marriage	[19:52]
danielpbarron	most of the ancaps I encounter seem to lean more towards the socialist side than they'd like to admit -- what with all their "fairness for all" mantra, as if unrestrained capitalism won't deal a crushing blow to the dregs of society	[19:52]
mircea_popescu	anyone got an opinion on lesswrong.com ?	[19:52]
moriarty	xmj, females too	[19:52]
bounce	the problem there is essentially "random" justice. that's fairly bad for encouraging people to pick up better habits.	[19:52]
xmj	moriarty: marriage is a way of ensuring betas get laid, it's one of the more controversial claims	[19:52]
xmj	yes them too, sure.	[19:52]
xmj	moriarty: this is why societies embracing absolute nuclear families do better than societies that have extended families / clans -- inter-generational wealth transfers.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	moriarty i have my doubts about that model, but anyway.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron generally people don't know what the things they claim to want imply.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	because... thinking. is hard.	[19:54]
decimation	mircea_popescu: re: lesswrong they push that 'hard-ai' bullshit pretty hard	[19:54]
moriarty	xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime	[19:55]
decimation	also here's an amusing thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5242570	[19:55]
assbot	Lesswrong is a weird place. I can read an awesome, insightful article one moment... \| Hacker News	[19:55]
moriarty	xmj, not a popular opinion either, but hey :)	[19:55]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, what model is this?	[19:55]
decimation	on the pain of offending the almighty future-ai-god, I claim that he won't exist	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	moriarty this.	[19:56]
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moriarty	mircea_popescu, lesswrong is filled with people who have fallen between the cracks of society	[19:56]
xmj	moriarty: yeah that part is pretty brilliant	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	moriarty ahahha unlike what, bitcoin ?	[19:56]
xmj	moriarty: you know, bread 'n games	[19:56]
xmj	keep'm occupied.	[19:56]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, they have potential, but are limited by the ability to realise those potential, because of their minority status and not many people defending them really	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	well maybe they come to daddy.	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime << so now you also gotta read http://trilema.com/2014/how-i-was-wrong-cuckolding-or-a-story-about-sigmas/	[19:58]
assbot	How I was wrong : Cuckolding, or a story about sigmas pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[19:58]
mircea_popescu	this will never end!!1	[19:58]
moriarty	xmj, yeah, http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2004/sep/19/features.magazine37 - sums up eloquently the human condition	[19:58]
assbot	The brothel creeper \| From the Observer \| The Observer	[19:58]
xmj	guardian from 2004?	[19:58]
xmj	that must be good that you still remember/care	[19:58]
mircea_popescu	and in other news, http://i.imgur.com/UkRnes7.jpg	[19:58]
moriarty	xmj, i didn't read it back in 2004, i found it recently when i was hyperlinking around :)	[19:58]
xmj	ok	[19:59]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, what is your take on marriage?	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	understood as what ?	[20:00]
xmj	moriarty: screwing >1000 hookers is pretty sad	[20:01]
xmj	screwing >1000 normal people without paying cash for it would be a considerable achievement	[20:01]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i like your take	[20:01]
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mircea_popescu	which one lol	[20:02]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've been told by a woman that women exist on a plane different to men	[20:02]
mircea_popescu	yaya	[20:02]
xmj	"The great thing about sex with whores is the excitement and variety." yeah, well, you could just travel and seduce...	[20:02]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, and in not so many words, it's easy to put yourselves in the shoes of a woman, if you imagine them to be first a man, take away reason, and accountability	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	that;s ludicrous.	[20:03]
moriarty	i know, but that's what they are :)	[20:03]
xmj	What I hate are meaningless and heartless one-night stands where you tell all sorts of lies to get into bed with a woman you don't care for.	[20:03]
moriarty	it's best not to try to understand them	[20:04]
xmj	I totally agree with this sentence.	[20:04]
xmj	moriarty: what, women or whores? :)	[20:04]
moriarty	i've long given up on that pursuit, so whenever a woman argues, i just empathise with her and agree with her	[20:04]
moriarty	lol xmj	[20:04]
xmj	i've become better at screening	[20:04]
xmj	but, y'know, law of attraction is a bitch.	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	dude get out, i understand women just fine.	[20:05]
moriarty	xmj, men are shallow by nature, our emotions do not run as deeply as women (unless we grew up on a heavy dose of sappy films)	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	it's not particularly hard, either, just as long as you comprehend that the "differnet plane" bs is bs, and that there's more variety between different women than between women and men.	[20:05]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[20:06]
xmj	"The problem is that the modern woman is a prostitute who doesn't deliver the goods. Teasers are never pleasers; they greedily accept presents to seal a contract and then break it."	[20:07]
xmj	well, if you're not man (or high value) enough to MAKE her deliver	[20:07]
decimation	!up moriarty	[20:09]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[20:09]
moriarty	xmj, that's quintessentially the female response to the common masculine argument of cockteasers; rephrasing it, it's not that i'm not putting out enough, you're just not good enough	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	moriarty seeing the value in a wot acct yet ? :D	[20:10]
xmj	that might be the female response	[20:10]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol i would need to trade bitcoin in order to get a wot acct, right?	[20:10]
xmj	that IS something i've empirically been able to validate	[20:10]
xmj	:)	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	no.	[20:10]
decimation	moriarty: no you just need to make a gpg key	[20:10]
moriarty	xmj, what i mean is this - females are very articulate in dealmaking, and there is almost no deal in which they conduct themselves, socially or otherwise, that would leave them worse off than before	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	moriarty how about slavegirls ?	[20:11]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	what lol ?	[20:11]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, in the confines of a conventional western society today	[20:11]
moriarty	:P	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[20:11]
decimation	slavery is all around you moriarty	[20:12]
xmj	there can be	[20:12]
xmj	never underestimate the willingness of women to stay in bad/unhealthy relationships	[20:12]
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moriarty	xmj, because, pure and simple, they are not logical creatures	[20:12]
moriarty	they are bags of emotions	[20:12]
decimation	what is a council-house full of couch-sitters other than slaves of the state? with the state being a worthless master?	[20:12]
moriarty	they thrive on what thrills them	[20:12]
xmj	moriarty: you're not, either	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	moriarty http://trilema.com/2010/nsfw-mosu-cu-joarda/ << take them there. better off than before ?	[20:12]
assbot	NSFW - Mosu’ cu joarda pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[20:12]
moriarty	xmj, drama is one way to get into a woman's pants	[20:12]
xmj	moriarty: you run on testosterone and adrenaline and dopamin and whatever.	[20:12]
moriarty	xmj, there is truth to that, but my motivation is more societal status too :)	[20:13]
moriarty	xmj, it elevates my status if i have arm candy	[20:13]
xmj	for yourself?	[20:13]
xmj	ofc	[20:13]
decimation	asciilifeform: some guy bought a 'salvaged Tesla' and did a teardown of the battery pack: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack	[20:14]
assbot	Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	it's incredible how broken other irc channels seem to me. "where's the logs ?" "we don't have logs because reasons and we're primitive idiots" "so i guess i don't even need to ask about gribble or wot then huh."	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	so i sit there and it's like... eating grass.	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	savages.	[20:14]
moriarty	decimation, well, unfortunately as someone who is partial to the ancap way of looking at things, i don't identify with the reframing of couch-sitters as slaves of the state, i see them as enslaving the state though	[20:15]
bounce	you don't like grass? so you're not a cow then.	[20:15]
decimation	lol, does anyone ask them before they decide something?	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	bounce i guess not.	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	decimation of course ?	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	try rezoning a couch potato farm ?	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	try changing benefits ? try doing anything.	[20:16]
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moriarty	mircea_popescu, you give a little to get a whole lot more :)	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	the whole theory is broken. there's no "other plane", and there's no "women" as a one thing.	[20:17]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, all i'm saying is, once you understand women to be a bag of emotions, rather than logical creatures, their motivations, what it takes to motivate them, becomes plain as day	[20:18]
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xmj	couch-sitters? slaves to the states?	[20:18]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, buying them items in hopes to get in their pants would not be very successful, as xmj attested	[20:18]
xmj	nah man, that's not how it works, and it s not the reverse either	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	no. what becomes plain as day is how to interact with the few women nobody can be bothered with, and how to miss out on the value in the set.	[20:18]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, you have to appeal to their emotional side :) and the flip side of that is, you don't even have to spend a dime	[20:18]
xmj	those who want to sit in front of a TV all day long instead of doing something might just be better off that way.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	this dovetails neatly with your expectation that you have to spend bitdimes to be in the wot.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	that's not how wots work.	[20:19]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, the value in the set may be so economically, but socially? you attain more value by going for the unattainable	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	there is no "socially"	[20:19]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, it's the quintessential Veblen goods	[20:19]
moriarty	:)	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	mno.	[20:19]
moriarty	decimation, council houses are a response to voters clamouring for welfare	[20:21]
mircea_popescu	decimation nice pics	[20:21]
decimation	moriarty: and the state is more than happy to deliver, in exchange for not rioting	[20:21]
moriarty	it's one of the pernicious problems of mob rule, it converges to a state that pleases the majority, even if the minority in this case happens to be the ones that make more than half of the GDP and contribute tax-wise as well	[20:21]
decimation	which makes the state a terrible master	[20:21]
decimation	it doesn't take much creativity to imagine ways in which you could employ people such that they are neither a burden to civilized society nor have enough energy to riot	[20:22]
moriarty	decimation, but you've taken a ironic stance there, you can't be enslaved to the state and at the same time hold the state hostage with riot threats	[20:22]
moriarty	decimation, if you're happy with the status quo enough to not riot, then that's not enslavement of any sort except that of your own volition	[20:23]
moriarty	;)	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	decimation it does. how ?	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	moriarty contradictory is not ironic!	[20:24]
xmj	decimation: hahahaha	[20:24]
moriarty	decimation, minimum wage or mandatory employment has the same effect	[20:24]
xmj	decimation: briiiilliant.	[20:24]
xmj	decimation: you know what you could do as well?	[20:24]
decimation	it's not a contradiction	[20:24]
xmj	you could feed them fast food, and keep them happy with cheap ish beer.	[20:24]
xmj	not too cheap, they shouldn't be allowed to save too much.	[20:24]
moriarty	decimation, it is an endless regression to inflation, sticky wages eventually adjusting themselves, and formerly poor people made wealthy through minimum income now poor again rendering minimum income ineffetual	[20:24]
decimation	a slave (unless chained to the wall) will always have some power to rebel	[20:24]
moriarty	decimation, long story short, it's back to square one after awhile	[20:24]
xmj	decimation: do you know "indentured servitude" ?	[20:25]
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decimation	yeah, in the us we have h-1b visas	[20:25]
moriarty	decimation, and so mininum wage or mandated employment will never work except that politically it's wonderful	[20:25]
xmj	ahahah	[20:25]
xmj	H1B, biggest scam ever	[20:25]
moriarty	decimation, by the time, that happens, it's a different political party	[20:25]
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moriarty	lol that's the ancap bit of me speaking perhaps	[20:26]
decimation	moriarty: it's true that such a scheme would be unworkable in mass democracy	[20:26]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i was just being euphemistic :P	[20:26]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, i assume ironic humour, rather than any attempt to negate oneself ;)	[20:26]
decimation	and it's also true that in the modern west, the welfare class enslaves itself	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	decimation so how ?	[20:27]
moriarty	decimation, yep	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	how do you give idiots something to do that hides from reality the fact of their idiocy ?	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	this is a nonsensical object on par with the "foolproof" engineering item.	[20:28]
xmj	welfare class enslaves itself?	[20:28]
xmj	not that much	[20:28]
decimation	mircea_popescu: you can't, so you put it on display. your job: wash the sidewalk	[20:28]
xmj	there are actually a few traps setup by The Powers That Be	[20:28]
mircea_popescu	why would he be doing this ?	[20:28]
decimation	no work, no eat	[20:28]
mircea_popescu	does a shitty job of washing sidewalk.	[20:29]
moriarty	actually socioeconomic experiments are nothing more than alchemy waiting for sciences to solidify itself; in like sense, macro policies are the precursors to BCIs which would be a far more effective method of tailoring welfare to the individual without any of the leakages present today	[20:29]
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decimation	mircea_popescu: then don't eat, if deemed shitty in the subjective opinion of the bureaucrat of the day	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	so you've rebuilt singapoer,	[20:30]
mircea_popescu	except they do it properly. social escort.	[20:30]
decimation	one could do worse I think	[20:30]
moriarty	xmj, the traps are easily detectable were it not for their inferior intellect	[20:30]
xmj	hum..	[20:31]
xmj	no, i mean, they're incentivized to stay down	[20:31]
moriarty	xmj, but i guess i shouldn't sound so condescending, when i am attempting some candor	[20:31]
xmj	because by the time you start earning income, you lose more than 100% to the state	[20:31]
moriarty	xmj, but you won't bite the bait if you had some modicum of intellect	[20:31]
xmj	in redistribution you lose and texes you pay	[20:31]
xmj	moriarty: i'm completely retarded, didn't you notice.	[20:31]
moriarty	xmj, if you can't fend yourself against the traps of the powers that be, how do you hope to avoid buying a lemon when faced with a second-hand car dealer	[20:31]
moriarty	xmj, what i'm saying is, it's impossible to legislate every aspect of society to make it as idiotproof as possible	[20:32]
xmj	moriarty: oh i know I can.	[20:32]
xmj	and don't underestimate street smarts	[20:32]
xmj	no one trusts used-car dealers	[20:32]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: lesswrong << i was de-facto banished there.	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	how and why ?	[20:32]
moriarty	xmj, so if you have the street smarts to not trust used-car dealers, i hope you do the same for the government or powers that be	[20:32]
moriarty	:)	[20:32]
xmj	well	[20:33]
decimation	all these models. here's some real economists discussing how inappicable almost all economic models (sets of assumptions) are to reality: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/09/paul_pfleiderer.html (it's a podcast with transcript mircea!)	[20:33]
xmj	hopefully	[20:33]
assbot	" + soundfiledesc + "	[20:33]
xmj	hopefully you also get cash income :3	[20:33]
decimation	asciilifeform: do you have links? would read	[20:33]
moriarty	decimation, that's a rather simplistic view	[20:33]
moriarty	decimation, it's nice if you're not a very curious individual	[20:33]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-06-2014#711031	[20:34]
assbot	Logged on 10-06-2014 02:07:49; asciilifeform: (lw is another reddit clone that makes hn, etc. look sane. inhabited by folks terrified of robo-apocalypse. i was drummed out of lw as a 'future genocidal criminal' for... considering resurrecting doug lenat's 'eurisko.')	[20:34]
moriarty	decimation, but if you are dissatisfied with such simple conclusion, read that Mandelbrot book :)	[20:34]
decimation	economists too can be made to wash windows	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lol they on to you huh	[20:34]
moriarty	xmj, hah	[20:34]
asciilifeform	story time.	[20:34]
asciilifeform	there was (and is) a fellow by the name of eliezer yudkowsky. (american, oddly enough.) ingenious demented storyteller.	[20:35]
moriarty	decimation, economic models are much like scientific models, or any models for that matter, they are inapplicable to reality without an overdose of simplifying assumptions to linearise what would otherwise be a higher dimensionality reality	[20:35]
asciilifeform	he used to be rather into artificial intelligence - but more from the standpoint of advocacy ('we' (TM) must build working super-intelligent machine, so it can save 'us' (TM)) - but that was pre-2001 or so	[20:36]
xmj	asciilifeform: yeah, lesswrong.com...	[20:36]
asciilifeform	then he had some sort of nervous break and a bit flipped in his head	[20:36]
asciilifeform	and he turned into...	[20:36]
asciilifeform	the equivalent of an anti-nuclear activist - but pre-Fermi.	[20:36]
xmj	uhm...what	[20:36]
xmj	his CFAR and MIRI are doing quite well, no?	[20:36]
moriarty	lesswrong.com typical profile is someone who has fallen between the cracks of society so typically someone without formal education, self-proclaimed didact, home-schooled, etc	[20:37]
asciilifeform	xmj: the other thing that happened - around the same time - was: he found a sponsor.	[20:37]
asciilifeform	who put him on a throne, had an 'organization' built	[20:37]
xmj	isn't that convenient.	[20:37]
asciilifeform	now mr. y is surrounded by flunkies, and, by some accounts, is fellated (literally) round the clock by harem	[20:37]
xmj	moriarty: you're forgetting high-iq math/physics/compsci crowd	[20:37]
moriarty	if i were feeling benevolent, i should actually sponsor some of them for formal education :) but then neuroscience has something to say about how intellect not developed before a certain age would have the door closed on them at some point	[20:38]
xmj	ahahaha	[20:38]
decimation	asciilifeform: who is his rich patron?	[20:39]
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xmj	that'd interest me too	[20:39]
asciilifeform	in order to understand lw, must admit that mr y had talent. i, for instance, used to enjoy his expository writing. until realized that it is 100% recycled philosophy spiced up for 'reddit' crowd.	[20:39]
xmj	asciilifeform: what do you mean by pre-fermi anti-nuclear activist?	[20:39]
moriarty	i am into artificial intelligence	[20:39]
xmj	i've been in #lesswrong for months	[20:39]
moriarty	at least formally i have worked in the field of AI and have come across lesswrong in my past	[20:40]
moriarty	i am sincerely impressed by the attempts they have made without formal education	[20:40]
asciilifeform	attempts at what ?	[20:40]
moriarty	i honestly believe that under different circumstances, these individuals would have made real progress in society	[20:40]
moriarty	attempts at understanding AI	[20:40]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[20:40]
asciilifeform	!up moriarty	[20:40]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[20:40]
xmj	moriarty: formal education is just paper	[20:41]
asciilifeform	i'll be impressed when they build something - anything.	[20:41]
xmj	if you strive for knowledge you can learn /anything/	[20:41]
moriarty	xmj, sure, but let's not discount formal education also as the path to avoid mistakes made by saner individuals in the past	[20:41]
decimation	asciilifeform: oh he's one of Thiel's boys	[20:41]
moriarty	xmj, the informal route is filled with potential pitfalls to make the same mistakes	[20:41]
moriarty	i admire and despise Thiel all at once	[20:42]
xmj	you know, i'm all for ungraduating.	[20:42]
moriarty	i think it was great that PayPal has made that clan of people rich, a lot of good things have come out from the founders of PayPal	[20:42]
xmj	i've always been better at learning things on my own.	[20:42]
asciilifeform	good things << which ?	[20:42]
decimation	ultimately they are all patrons of usg and its idiotic currency meddling	[20:42]
moriarty	but Thiel's supposition that people should not bother with formal education and instead open up a company under the auspices of his seed funding is rather self-serving in my opinion	[20:42]
bounce	well, you know. formal education isn't always a panacea either. might just end up in a complete dead-end of "knowledge".	[20:43]
moriarty	in fact Theil's proposal would fall under xmj's concept of traps by powers that be :)	[20:43]
moriarty	Thiel even	[20:43]
bounce	you know, social sciences. contemporary economics. that sort of thing.	[20:43]
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moriarty	xmj, that's commendable	[20:43]
decimation	asciilifeform: one day I hope to find a modern 'ai researcher' who admits to have tried programming in lisp	[20:43]
moriarty	xmj, in university you are supposed to learn on your own too	[20:43]
moriarty	xmj, but freenode is one of those serendipituous occurence that i think is essential to homeschooling	[20:44]
moriarty	xmj, without a forum of knowledgeable peers or esteemed academics, you would be hopelessly lost, making lots of mistakes, reading all the crap together with the good stuff, and taking longer to self-develop	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i can readily see a us religious nut sponsor for that.	[20:45]
asciilifeform	decimation: you won't. because 'ai winter.' (and you also won't hear many people discuss how such 'winters' are the flip sides of 'summers', bacchanalia of grantsmanship and graft)	[20:45]
moriarty	the benefit of university is underrated, the constant feedback available ensures you minimise your time to develop your skillset sufficiently and deeply for profitable employment	[20:45]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: sponsor for what ?	[20:46]
bounce	AI cure for gayness?	[20:46]
decimation	asciilifeform: the universities that moriarty mentions being peopled with the same bureaucrats seeking grants	[20:46]
moriarty	decimation, heh the modern AI researcher uses any language at his disposal	[20:46]
moriarty	decimation, when i was studying and eventually doing research in AI, we got to use anything we like	[20:46]
asciilifeform	moriarty: 'got to' != 'used'	[20:47]
bounce	moriarty: missing the point though	[20:47]
moriarty	so i used things like Prolog, Haskell, Java, C, or even Matlab	[20:47]
decimation	moriarty: didn't you perceive this as a problem, given your previous point about mixing crap with the good?	[20:47]
asciilifeform	^ not one of which is homoiconic.	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the guy you mention.	[20:47]
moriarty	decimation, heh good point	[20:47]
asciilifeform	the fact that i - ever - have to actually stop and explain word 'homoiconic' is proof that 'getting to' use a lisp is not enough.	[20:48]
moriarty	decimation, unfortunately whenever money comes into the picture, it tilts the balance of power in the favour of the funder	[20:48]
moriarty	decimation, and those down the value chain, i.e. the grant writer	[20:48]
decimation	I don't distinguish much between the welfare recipient and the grant recipient	[20:48]
moriarty	decimation, and, then those who keep the university running, i.e. the undergraduates	[20:49]
decimation	the former being generally honest enough to admit to his scam	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform for shits and giggles i asked if anone knew him. no answer.	[20:49]
moriarty	decimation, and graduate researchers pretty much sit at the bottom of the food chain	[20:49]
moriarty	decimation, even below lab technicians	[20:49]
moriarty	they can pretty much make or break your work, no laughing matter	[20:49]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'anyone' where?	[20:49]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 27214 @ 0.00003108 = 0.8458 BTC [-] {18}	[20:49]
moriarty	decimation, heh	[20:50]
moriarty	decimation, at least the latter is voluntary	[20:50]
moriarty	decimation, i never saw the point in taxation being mandatory	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	#lesswrong	[20:50]
moriarty	but that's just the ancap bit of me speaking	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	i just handed them their ass too, i suspect either a ban or a wambulance coming	[20:50]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol let me see	[20:51]
asciilifeform	http://lesswrong.com/user/asciilifeform/overview << me derping on their site back when had time/inclination	[20:51]
assbot	Overview for asciilifeform - Less Wrong	[20:51]
asciilifeform	i used to be rather into the idea of 'hard ai' before realized that we don't even know how to build a computer.	[20:52]
decimation	!b 1	[20:52]
assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/32QCYZE.txt )	[20:52]
moriarty	asciilifeform, you're forgiven	[20:52]
bounce	we don't?	[20:52]
moriarty	asciilifeform, everybody who ventures into AI informally makes that exact same mistake	[20:52]
moriarty	bounce, i think he means build a brain	[20:53]
decimation	asciilifeform: in the end it doesn't matter if the gasenwagen is driven by robot/ai or communist bureaucrats	[20:53]
asciilifeform	moriarty: except that i ventured formally.	[20:53]
moriarty	asciilifeform, really? interesting	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i guess ima publish, save myself the effort next time i feel inclined to explore teh ircworld.	[20:53]
moriarty	asciilifeform, and they didn't inform you that hard AI was a largely abandoned endeavour	[20:53]
xmj	moriarty: people say that google and peers are bad for you when you really want to learn things..	[20:53]
xmj	moriarty: ...people say ltos	[20:54]
moriarty	asciilifeform, it used to be an active area of investigation in the seventies	[20:54]
asciilifeform	moriarty: born - and died - with the lisp machine.	[20:54]
asciilifeform	not a coincidence.	[20:54]
moriarty	xmj, sure, i see your point	[20:54]
xmj	moriarty: "standing on the shoulders of giants"	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform why not a coincidence ?	[20:55]
moriarty	xmj, yep exactly	[20:55]
xmj	that's how knowledge creation update transmission etc works.	[20:55]
xmj	has, does, will	[20:55]
moriarty	xmj, it helps to have a walking encyclopedia who you can tap into	[20:55]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: recall your quip about heart and liver ?	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	yeah.	[20:55]
xmj	well you could also develop your memory	[20:55]
xmj	mnemonics is fun	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	but im asking, how are they integrated ?	[20:55]
moriarty	xmj, everybody is at various stages of knowledge, you gain help no matter who you ask along that spectrum, the key distinguishing feature though is rate of absorption	[20:55]
moriarty	xmj, or rate of dissemination rather	[20:55]
moriarty	xmj, you get to the point much quicker with someone more experienced, more knowledgeable	[20:56]
moriarty	xmj, and it's hard to get such people lurking on the internet :) not impossible, but rare	[20:56]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the final doom of smbx corp. was sealed by 'ai winter.' in turn, the demise of the lm ensured that there would be no 'spring' - because carrying on the work in a non-homoiconic language is much like attempting algebra with roman digits.	[20:56]
bounce	they'd rather hear themselves pontificate?	[20:56]
xmj	you have no idea lol	[20:56]
asciilifeform	(^ above is a terrible oversimplification. lm was not simply about language, but the entire interface.)	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform seems a weak reason tbh. i mean, there are good lisp implementations today, or not ?	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	wh ythe sbx machine specifically ?	[20:57]
asciilifeform	nope.	[20:57]
moriarty	asciilifeform, where did you attend previously?	[20:57]
moriarty	i recognise some AI practitioners on here	[20:57]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: to understand, it is necessary to see it. e.g., http://www.loper-os.org/?p=932	[20:57]
assbot	Loper OS » Kalman Reti, the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines.	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	so the idea is, the tool required (os/stack/machine) has no industrial utility and without convincing the industry it needs ai to sponsor the thing, there's never going to be either ?	[20:58]
asciilifeform	moriarty: don't misunderstand, i was never a professional academic.	[20:58]
moriarty	asciilifeform, fair enough, still if you've formally undertaken AI as a major, that's something	[20:58]
moriarty	asciilifeform, which university?	[20:58]
asciilifeform	moriarty: no. went to uni, ordinary 'cs', but vomited from 'ai' courses.	[20:59]
moriarty	i see copumpkin on here, he's also into AI :)	[20:59]
moriarty	asciilifeform, nice	[20:59]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: had industrial utility (one of largest customers - 'american express') - but - smbx spent $maxint on r&d, relied on usg to pay for this.	[21:00]
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mircea_popescu	how much did they actually spend ?	[21:00]
bounce	you're saying hard AI needs hardware with specific lisp support?	[21:00]
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decimation	(a common model for technical companies with any defense contracts)	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	bounce it is a strange argument on the face, but perhaps the idea is such a hard problem can only be conveniently breached at this angle. much like satellites aren't launched from tiera del fuego	[21:00]
moriarty	hah	[21:01]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the death of smbx corp. is almost an entire field of scholarship..	[21:01]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform topmost figure ? 1mn ? 1bn ?	[21:01]
asciilifeform	bn is close.	[21:01]
asciilifeform	one famous treatise on subject: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Symbolics.pdf	[21:02]
moriarty	what are the advantages of lisp over haskell for instance?	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	so about 1/7000 the recent involvement in the middle east ?	[21:02]
moriarty	with respect to AI	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	aww.	[21:02]
bounce	what's the cost of cooking up a chip or two these days?	[21:02]
asciilifeform	moriarty: it isn't merely about lisps.	[21:02]
[]bot	Bet created: "Alibaba shares above 115 before November 25th" http://bitbet.us/bet/1048/	[21:03]
moriarty	asciilifeform, so functional and logical languages, cool	[21:03]
asciilifeform	moriarty: rather, it is about the kind of interaction with the machine that it makes possible.	[21:03]
*	bounce recalls chuck moore cobbling up his own FORTH chips	[21:03]
asciilifeform	functional << nope. the non-homoiconic languages - do not make it possible.	[21:03]
moriarty	heh fair enough	[21:04]
moriarty	Prolog is homoiconic so i see your point	[21:04]
asciilifeform	not really, no.	[21:05]
moriarty	Haskell certainly lacks in that department though it makes up for it with purity, monads	[21:05]
asciilifeform	haskell is an american chumpatronic masterpiece.	[21:06]
bounce	what, type theory?	[21:06]
asciilifeform	yes.	[21:06]
asciilifeform	pseudo-mathematics, all of it.	[21:06]
moriarty	Prolog is not homoiconic?	[21:07]
moriarty	:)	[21:07]
asciilifeform	not s-expression - not homoiconic.	[21:07]
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asciilifeform	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 << by popular demand of readers, explanation of what is the scam, and why.	[21:08]
assbot	Loper OS » Of Decaying Urbits.	[21:08]
asciilifeform	http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/07/my-navrozov-moments.html << linked from above, mr mold's explanation (written presumably before the chumpatron re-swallowed him, this time - for good.)	[21:08]
assbot	Unqualified Reservations: My Navrozov moments	[21:09]
asciilifeform	bounce: Forth is an example of 'lisp' re-invented by an outsider. there is another example - 'refal'. (soviet)	[21:09]
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asciilifeform	both of these are quite their own animals, and most users would make a face if you called it 'a lisp' - but they are as much 'a lisp' as newton and leibniz both had the 'calculus.'	[21:11]
moriarty	you can do s-expressions in Prolog, asciilifeform	[21:11]
asciilifeform	'can' != SOP.	[21:11]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[21:11]
asciilifeform	(what's a lisp? my treatment of subject - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 )	[21:11]
assbot	Loper OS » The Simplest Lisp Machine	[21:11]
asciilifeform	!up moriarty	[21:11]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[21:11]
moriarty	asciilifeform, this is devolving into an advocacy debate :)	[21:11]
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moriarty	i'm not for Prolog, so it doesn't matter to me	[21:12]
Guest17444	Hmmm	[21:12]
moriarty	i've used Lisp and like it as well	[21:12]
*	asciilifeform has been writing an entire blog on the subject, since '07, and doesn't see the need to continue pasting it here...	[21:12]
*	Guest17444 is now known as TheNewDeal	[21:12]
TheNewDeal	There we go	[21:12]
asciilifeform	moriarty - lisp on x86 pc is 'lisp' in much the same way 'holy roman empire' is the roman empire.	[21:13]
moriarty	asciilifeform, sure, Prolog works the same way too :)	[21:13]
asciilifeform	!up daybyter	[21:14]
moriarty	but don't let me get your feathers ruffled :P	[21:14]
*	assbot gives voice to daybyter	[21:14]
moriarty	hehe	[21:14]
daybyter	Thanks!	[21:14]
moriarty	i quite enjoyed and loathed functional programming whether it was in Lisp/Prolog etc	[21:14]
moriarty	the simplicity of your code, balanced against the length of time it took you to write it	[21:14]
daybyter	Are you using lisp/prolog for trading stuff?	[21:14]
*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[21:14]
nubbins`	sweet, fresh OS X install and my keys survived the round trip	[21:15]
moriarty	and i must say that the beauty of functional languages is that you get to attain that rare accomplishment of writing a bug-free code in the first round	[21:15]
*	nubbins` breathes small sighof relief	[21:15]
moriarty	daybyter, yes i have tried doing so	[21:15]
moriarty	just for fun because i was bored out of my mind	[21:16]
daybyter	I tried drools.	[21:16]
daybyter	I think I could use jscheme, too.	[21:16]
moriarty	daybyter, unfortunately Lisp or Prolog is not high level enough for financial trading	[21:17]
moriarty	daybyter, so what we ended up doing was using proprietary languages that allow us to atomically describe market conditions with ease	[21:18]
asciilifeform	moriarty: in point of fact, any serious industrial use of a lisp proceeds by first creating just such a language for the system in question, and then programming in it.	[21:18]
daybyter	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130966.0	[21:18]
assbot	Formal definition of a trading language	[21:18]
asciilifeform	moriarty: when you pay $1m for a 'q' license, etc. you are buying out of having to carry out this labour.	[21:19]
decimation	(he used the u so you would understand)	[21:19]
moriarty	asciilifeform, that makes perfect sense	[21:19]
moriarty	decimation, hah	[21:19]
moriarty	asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work	[21:20]
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moriarty	asciilifeform, all the things one takes for granted, the support from community at large is non-existent in a corporate setting :) so what was trivial in popular languages had to be polished up, e.g. good documentation and example codes	[21:21]
asciilifeform	moriarty: relevant: http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3663	[21:21]
assbot	Not all programmers are alike: a language rant \| Locklin on science	[21:21]
asciilifeform	(thread)	[21:21]
*	assbot gives voice to hanbot	[21:22]
asciilifeform	moriarty: the 'support of the community' - that is, mainstream 'programmer culture' - is pure intellectual poison. the farther from it - the better.	[21:22]
moriarty	daybyter, interesting, i was thinking of perhaps less specific but at the same time more atomic than simple moving averages	[21:23]
daybyter	I actually never trading ema crossing, or so.	[21:23]
moriarty	daybyter, i'm thinking in terms of interest rates, manufacturing activity, GDP delta, CPI, retail sales, etc	[21:24]
moriarty	daybyter, and of course i assume a full-fledged basic mathematical suite to support doing whatever i want to the model	[21:24]
daybyter	seems, like you are far ahead...	[21:24]
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daybyter	I'm working on simple arb stuff and such.	[21:25]
daybyter	I want to create a framework to build on.	[21:25]
*	asciilifeform always wonders, on first meeting a trading bot enthusiast, whether he considers basic game theory and contemplates counterpoint rape-bot answers to his strategies.	[21:25]
daybyter	http://i.imgur.com/kjl1VC2.png	[21:26]
asciilifeform	if 'buy cheap, sell dear' is state-of-the-art, then yes, anyone can write bot.	[21:27]
xmj	that's arbitrage to you	[21:27]
xmj	you can also sell dear, buy cheap if you're into shortselling :)	[21:27]
bounce	to some snazzy beasty boys tune	[21:28]
moriarty	asciilifeform, i see the points made there, make it high level enough that you don't need to get bogged down by the side-work in the midst of pursuing your main objectives	[21:28]
asciilifeform	xmj: more fun - ferret out simplistic bots and rape them.	[21:28]
moriarty	asciilifeform, and couldn't agree with it more :)	[21:28]
xmj	asciilifeform: meh, i prefer gaming bigger systems	[21:29]
moriarty	asciilifeform, a lot of the bugs arise typically not from the main objectives by the side-work in getting simple I/O right, etc, a lot of which can really be templated	[21:29]
asciilifeform	xmj: in this particular space, the 'bigger system' often consists of a horde of idiots operating small systems.	[21:29]
xmj	we call it 'society'	[21:29]
bounce	apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not?	[21:30]
moriarty	lol bounce	[21:31]
asciilifeform	!s chumpatron	[21:31]
assbot	116 results for 'chumpatron' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=chumpatron	[21:31]
moriarty	bounce, this calls for a good ol' http://xkcd.com/610/	[21:31]
assbot	xkcd: Sheeple	[21:31]
bounce	lose the smug arrogance and you know what to look for to improve yourself	[21:33]
asciilifeform	too often 'lose the smug arrogance' is when pig says to man 'you think you're too good to eat shit with us, you bugger'	[21:34]
asciilifeform	of course, this can end in several distinct ways.	[21:35]
asciilifeform	one being - this - http://imgur.com/cHWju2Y	[21:35]
assbot	Pigsty. - Imgur	[21:35]
bounce	hmno. you're mistaking your peers keeping you down with the humility needed to climb up by yourself	[21:35]
moriarty	heh asciilifeform brought up a good point on trading though	[21:35]
moriarty	it's all about grasping the mindset of the mainstream, and then harvesting that to your advantage	[21:36]
moriarty	if you have a good perception of what will be the populist stance, then you can make a trading move to optimise your profits in response	[21:37]
asciilifeform	moriarty: fundamentally broken model here though	[21:37]
moriarty	that's what i did when i tried to profit off bitcoin	[21:37]
moriarty	asciilifeform, how's that?	[21:37]
asciilifeform	there is no 'populist stance', there is a set of finite automata	[21:37]
asciilifeform	e.g., a crowd of simple 'visual basic' bots each playing arbitrage and programmed with a 'stop-loss' threshold	[21:38]
moriarty	well, emergence	[21:38]
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moriarty	individual automatons act in ways that coherently reinforce into a distinct pattern	[21:38]
moriarty	think crowd behaviour as they exit a museum	[21:38]
moriarty	they may amble along seemingly individualistic paths but the feedback arising from interaction with other criss-crossing of paths result in a very predictable wave	[21:39]
moriarty	same it is with anything else, even in the markets	[21:39]
moriarty	you may act individually, but your response to feedback from the market constraints that individuality, and as a whole, the market acts very mechanistically, well, if you can pin it down of course	[21:40]
moriarty	the constraints of the market is at its most basic, everybody is driven by greed and fear	[21:41]
moriarty	without any training, the basic market participant buys at the high and sells at the low, despite being cognisant of the mantra to the contrary	[21:41]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[21:41]
asciilifeform	!up moriarty	[21:42]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[21:42]
moriarty	greed drives the buys at the highs	[21:42]
moriarty	fear drives the sells at the lows	[21:42]
moriarty	we know we shouldn't do it, but we do it anyway :) and if you can partition the market into the emotional plays, and the bot plays, you can then expect to tailor your response accordingly	[21:42]
moriarty	you can get some sort of clue based on the amount of money in the system, and the flow rate	[21:43]
moriarty	institutional flows are of magnitudes higher, for instance	[21:43]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu, others : http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3728 << smbx for the impatient.	[21:43]
assbot	Not all programmers are alike: a language rant \| Locklin on science	[21:43]
asciilifeform	(entire thread recommended)	[21:43]
moriarty	heh	[21:44]
moriarty	that's the fallacy of homeschooling	[21:44]
*	assbot removes voice from daybyter	[21:44]
moriarty	whenever someone makes a comment like last programming language, it's a giveaway sign they have no formal education in CS	[21:45]
asciilifeform	(re: smbx) must say that some things absolutely must be experienced to be understood. i went to considerable lengths to actually obtain the machine before i dared to write about it at any great length.	[21:45]
moriarty	the very basics of comparative languages as one of the electives or course modules in CS will inform anyone that the history of language development was in response to advances in hardware, but at the same time, paradigms from ages before still come into play today at various points in the hardware spectrum, if no longer on your desktop, then at least on your mobile devices which are	[21:46]
moriarty	still constrained	[21:46]
moriarty	no one-size-fits-all solution, last language, pfft	[21:46]
moriarty	:P	[21:46]
bounce	so make a new fancy box that does lisp from the ground up.	[21:47]
moriarty	hah :)	[21:48]
asciilifeform	moriarty: all of these devices are quite the same from the standpoint of, e.g., 1970s hardware architect (in whose time there were actually multiple cpu paradigms in use)	[21:48]
moriarty	asciilifeform, i'm surprised Clojure is still popular	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/the-irc-world-is-a-big-but-very-flat-place/ << if anyone feels like arguing the ethics/moral question, i'm all ears.	[21:49]
moriarty	for me, it died before it even became mainstream	[21:49]
assbot	The irc world is a big but very flat place. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	this is where i	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	wil redirect anyone trying to do so in the future.	[21:49]
moriarty	asciilifeform, sure, and then you get the philosophical stances behind strong vs weak typing, how many passes would you like your compilation to occur, how about parallelism for that matter, etc	[21:52]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: It’s a one time universal library card << yes, yes it is.	[21:52]
*	asciilifeform plugs in 'read all books in the world for free' machine to recharge.	[21:53]
asciilifeform	moriarty: in point of fact, given correct hardware design ('dataflow' machine) neither compilers nor 'parallelism' as conventionally understood - are necessary concepts at all.	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work << that'd explain why you so drastically overestimate the "conversation" going on between empty barrels rolling downhill.	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	aka academics.	[21:54]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol	[21:55]
asciilifeform	academic used to be an actual animal, extinct around same time as 'passenger pigeon'	[21:55]
asciilifeform	possibly a few survivors (in soviet captivity) but that was it.	[21:55]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, yeah i don't care too much for academia, when i've realised the amount of crap coming from most institutions	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	i suspect the azns may have some extant	[21:56]
asciilifeform	confucian version is a capon.	[21:56]
asciilifeform	animal with glands cut out - not the same.	[21:56]
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moriarty	mircea_popescu, it doesn't help that the metrics of a good academic is the number of publications, one that seems to be robust in the face of peer review, but take a peek behind the curtain only to unveil the editorial committee having ties to the same university, sigh	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	bounce: apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not? << this is such nonsense. why would you care ?	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	moriarty it's a problem of dynamic equilibrium. peer review worked before weight was put on it.	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	the average idiot tasked with "making policy" and "framework" for absolutely no reason doesn't get this,	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	proceeds to act as if the static image he perceived, more or less blurry, is made out of diamond.	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not the same, yes. alive, also yes.	[21:59]
mircea_popescu	recall your argument re the statist agriculture endgame ?	[21:59]
mircea_popescu	the chinese got there, but with thinking. their thinkers can't reproduce w/o the state. it proved ruinous but it is not yet abandoned.	[21:59]
asciilifeform	sure	[21:59]
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asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2014#761526	[22:00]
assbot	Logged on 19-07-2014 03:41:36; asciilifeform: even ancient china, apparently, had 'cram schools.' (see miyazaki, 'china's examination hell' - neat little monograph on the subject)	[22:00]
asciilifeform	^ great little book	[22:00]
asciilifeform	chinese system did then - and afaik, still does - select, with mind-boggling efficiency, for the uncreative 'human computer' type.	[22:02]
moriarty	agreed, mircea_popescu	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well, it doesn't reproduce :)	[22:03]
chetty	well in china if you are not the robot type you jump out the window, not reproduce	[22:03]
moriarty	peer review would work if it was more well-thought out like a jury system	[22:03]
moriarty	but i guess once a system is put in place, resistance would act against any attempts to better the status quo	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	moriarty it would work as a wot system, and as that only.	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	and resistance will be washed away on the simple grounds that well... fiat world is going to africa anyway.	[22:05]
moriarty	heh	[22:05]
moriarty	africa is busy trying to make the banks more accessible to the citizen on the street	[22:06]
moriarty	giving away of free bank accounts, mobile telebanking etc	[22:06]
asciilifeform	moriarty: bezzle retrofit. snore.	[22:06]
*	chetty remembers when US banks gave prizes for opening accounts	[22:07]
asciilifeform	chetty: it's in fashion agai.	[22:07]
asciilifeform	n	[22:07]
jurov	http://lesswrong.com/lw/10g/lets_reimplement_eurisko/ lol asciilifeform this is a gem	[22:08]
assbot	Let's reimplement EURISKO! - Less Wrong	[22:08]
moriarty	in our attempt to fathom why africa has such a different development trail, we have come up with some interesting cause models, from the bias introduced by the Mercator projection, to the irrelevancy of subdividing world population based on continental shelves	[22:08]
jurov	Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky This is a road that does not lead to Friendly AI, only to AGI. I doubt this has anything to do with Lenat's motives - but I'm glad the source code isn't published and I don't think you'd be doing a service to the human species by trying to reimplement it.	[22:08]
jurov	they banned you cauz of this? huehuehue	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	moriarty there's nothing to fathom. africa is the craddle of civilisation. better people leave, so they left.	[22:09]
xmj	what	[22:09]
xmj	moriarty: where'd you get that one from	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	what's left is the multi-millenial selected scum of humanity.	[22:09]
asciilifeform	jurov: not formally banned, no. but 'persona non grata'	[22:09]
penguirker	New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/the-irc-world-is-a-big-but-very-flat-place/	[22:09]
*	asciilifeform actually FOIA'd all the available lenat material and still has thick binder of mildly interesting goodies	[22:09]
moriarty	xmj, get what from?	[22:09]
moriarty	xmj, oh, the cause models	[22:10]
xmj	'in our attempt..' was a quote right?	[22:10]
moriarty	xmj, no, i wrote that	[22:10]
moriarty	xmj, some have posited that the reason why Africa received much less development is because of the way our map projections undermine the true size of Africa	[22:10]
*	xmj facepalms	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	possibly one of the more stupid things to come out of academia.	[22:11]
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xmj	damn white privilege putting maps out in projections that disfavor blacks	[22:11]
asciilifeform	jurov: 'friendly' means something very particular to these folks. it means, developed under the dictatorial control of mr. y and his clique of fellators, in accordance with various 'rules' stated in his (often contradictory) blatherings.	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so basically they aspire to b-a-hood ?	[22:12]
moriarty	lol xmj	[22:12]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: approximately.	[22:12]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[22:12]
asciilifeform	!up moriarty	[22:12]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	such a crime.	[22:12]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: except that they subscribe to every dogma of present-day usg (incl. 'climate science', 'equality', 'democracy') and so maintain various pretenses.	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	well, i didn't mean b-a-hood in the "it's sensible and it works" sense, i mearly meant it in the "rule the wrold" sense.	[22:14]
xmj	moriarty: now comes your neoreactionary and inquires "if western europeans built such beautiful institutions such as states that actually hold together over centuries, industries, absolute nuclear family that favors outbreeding, and an army that could literally dominate the entire world..."	[22:14]
xmj	moriarty: "why didn't they?"	[22:14]
asciilifeform	in that sense - yes. but with the usg-like mask of 'we will neuter you for your own good'	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	"ETA: How concerned should we be that DARPA is going full steam ahead for strong AI? Perhaps not very much, given the failure of at least two of their projects along these lines"	[22:15]
moriarty	xmj, lol	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	heh. full steam ? hardly.	[22:15]
xmj	moriarty: you cannot receive development, you don't deserve development, you develop and then you've earned it.	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	hey, he has a point for once,.	[22:15]
xmj	moriarty: i wanted to look up the map of the neoreactionary blogosphere for you, sec	[22:15]
xmj	moriarty: (not themap but interesting_ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/12/1178414/-Racism-has-a-new-name-HBD	[22:16]
assbot	Racism has a new name: HBD	[22:16]
asciilifeform	the sheer density of epicycles the lw types lay on and on, to keep various dogma ('equality', etc) going - is something to behold.	[22:16]
xmj	equality and equalitarianism must die.	[22:17]
mircea_popescu	lw ?	[22:17]
asciilifeform	'less-wrong'	[22:17]
mircea_popescu	ah.	[22:18]
xmj	moriarty: http://akarlin.com/2013/04/mapping-the-dark-enlightenment/	[22:18]
assbot	Mapping The Dark Enlightenment	[22:18]
*	asciilifeform used to read nearly all of these ^ people - today, none.	[22:19]
asciilifeform	because - bored.	[22:19]
moriarty	xmj, lol "thinking housewife"	[22:19]
moriarty	that made me chuckle	[22:19]
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decimation	asciilifeform: did you post those lenat papers somewhere? I have a reasonably fast digitizer if you lack	[22:19]
asciilifeform	decimation: may have posted, but i forget where and when	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform what's agi supposed to be again ?	[22:19]
xmj	there's lots of good memes	[22:19]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'artificial general intelligence' in their parlance.	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	sooo... ?	[22:20]
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mircea_popescu	o, that's bad because it could mp them out of existence ?	[22:20]
xmj	http://habitableworlds.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/darkenlightenment2.png	[22:20]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: they have an elaborate narrative where 'intelligence' can take on the role of uncontrolled fissile chain reaction (of the kind that was thought to be possible pre-1945)	[22:21]
xmj	hrm, still not the right one	[22:21]
xmj	i'm missing vdare on this picture	[22:21]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform seems pretty banal. what else would it do.	[22:21]
xmj	http://www.propertarianism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/darkenlightenment1.png << there we go.	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	the rich get richer ; the smart get smarter ** 2;	[22:22]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: if you were to listen to mr. y, mis-programmed 'agi' is likely to, e.g., disassemble the known universe into constituent atoms to build a gigantic live mendeleev table. because it likes to sort things. or the like...	[22:22]
moriarty	heh	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	now that's nonsense.	[22:22]
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moriarty	Yudkowsky is reason enough why formal education makes all the difference in the world	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	not likely, but if it decided to... who is yudjowsky to say no.	[22:23]
xmj	how so?	[22:23]
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mircea_popescu	kinda like the position of the girl being propositioned. if hte guy is good enough, not her place to have an opinion, not really.	[22:23]
xmj	his HPMOR series is awesome	[22:23]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: well, he'd like to have a say in whether anyone gets to research.	[22:23]
xmj	as to the rest, no idea	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	lol, sounds like a winner.	[22:24]
asciilifeform	by alliance with usg, on one front, and subterfuge / 'kool aid dosing' subversion of likely participants - on other front.	[22:24]
decimation	yeah I guess there's this fantasy that he can personally steer research toward non-angry-ai-god ai	[22:24]
moriarty	did he watch too much AI doomsday movies?	[22:24]
asciilifeform	'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks	[22:24]
moriarty	maybe i should do some good with my bitcoin winnings, and put some of those intelligent folks through school	[22:25]
asciilifeform	example of mr y and his thought process - http://lesswrong.com/lw/y3/value_is_fragile	[22:25]
assbot	Value is Fragile - Less Wrong	[22:25]
asciilifeform	there's ~1000+ of these, i won't link to them all, not everyone is a zoologist of crackpots	[22:26]
decimation	I suspect few recognize the irony of turning away from traditional worship of Jahweh to worship some hobo	[22:26]
mircea_popescu	'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks << this is a major problem in search for a solution.	[22:26]
mircea_popescu	there's so many various different examples of it...	[22:26]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: lw was itself, for a time, a 'solution' to reddit and hnews	[22:26]
asciilifeform	(mass exodus)	[22:27]
decimation	in the middle ages, the local barons would think of themselves as personally responsible to nurture the talent of the local intelligent young boys	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	o hey, trilema is not on the "dark enlightenment" map w/e that is. i guess im cool like that!	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	decimation orly ?	[22:27]
asciilifeform	decimation: ^ the only organized approach known to work	[22:27]
asciilifeform	except not middle ages, but far later	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	do you mean like 5 people in the renaiisant italy or what.	[22:28]
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decimation	"Gauss's intellectual abilities attracted the attention of the Duke of Brunswick,[2] who sent him to the Collegium Carolinum (now Braunschweig University of Technology), which he attended from 1792 to 1795, and to the University of Göttingen from 1795 to 1798. "	[22:29]
decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Friedrich_Gauss	[22:29]
assbot	Carl Friedrich Gauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	decimation when do you think the middle ages are ?!	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	traditionally it's the fall of rome to the discovery of america.	[22:29]
moriarty	asciilifeform, there is some truth to that article	[22:29]
decimation	heh anything before 1950	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	lol ok.	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	you'll confuse people who study history, it's a term of art	[22:30]
decimation	I guess 'middle ages' was poorly worded	[22:30]
xmj	huh	[22:30]
decimation	I should have said "post Renaissance"	[22:30]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the man is, approximately, usa and colonies.	[22:30]
asciilifeform	*map	[22:30]
mircea_popescu	greeks, roman republic, roman empire, middle ages, renaissance, industrial revolution, modernity, post modernity	[22:30]
asciilifeform	if you made actual map - i dare say most of it would be painted soviet, chinese, hell knows who else	[22:31]
xmj	decimation: see, democracy doesn't work that way.	[22:31]
decimation	bully for democracy	[22:31]
asciilifeform	perhaps when the lid is taken off, e.g., india - we find thought there	[22:31]
mircea_popescu	~3000, ~300, 0, 1500, 1700, 1850, 1950	[22:31]
xmj	with democracy you (as temporary ruler) have no incentive to make your young boys/girls look good.	[22:31]
Apocalyptic	the only incentive is to get reelected yes	[22:32]
decimation	mircea_popescu: sounds legit, I'll try to adopt that nomenclature	[22:32]
asciilifeform	xmj: overwhelming incentive to back-door 'merit' systems to promote blood relations:	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	decimation cheap and easy hack.	[22:32]
asciilifeform	!s merit wash	[22:32]
assbot	9 results for 'merit wash' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=merit+wash	[22:32]
*	Lycerion_ is now known as Lycerion	[22:32]
decimation	yeah in 'modern' times the common solution was to send the kids off to 'elite' boarding schools and so forth	[22:33]
moriarty	so is anyone working here by any chance?	[22:34]
moriarty	or are everyone here avid bitcoin miners/traders full-time?	[22:34]
decimation	I work, to eat	[22:34]
moriarty	heh :)	[22:34]
*	asciilifeform works several jobs	[22:34]
decimation	I'm only a zek	[22:34]
mircea_popescu	moriarty what do you mean working here.	[22:34]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, self-employed, entrepreneur, corporate cog, etc	[22:35]
mircea_popescu	oh.	[22:35]
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mircea_popescu	decimation really it started during the renaissance, as an attempt to bite the fruit of life fully.	[22:36]
asciilifeform	usually the question presumes certain customary rituals	[22:36]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, are you a fan of Dan-Mircea Popescu?	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	moriarty just some random twerp, no relevancy no relation.	[22:36]
decimation	mircea_popescu: you mean educatin' the local youths?	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	decimation yes.	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	in a sense, the renaissance was the golden age of us libtardism.	[22:37]
decimation	asciilifeform: do you write lisp in exchange for bezzlars?	[22:37]
mircea_popescu	back then princesses went into the hovels to rescue genius.	[22:37]
asciilifeform	decimation: nope. but i do solve problems for bezzlars	[22:37]
mircea_popescu	the current libtards are really just trying to do a sort of "being cinderella" except a little deeper than disney	[22:37]
asciilifeform	decimation: and it sometimes - when absolutely cannot be avoided - requires writing programs.	[22:37]
moriarty	asciilifeform, lol	[22:37]
mircea_popescu	by now it's a good three centuries plus a world explored past its sell by date	[22:38]
moriarty	asciilifeform, you make it sound like you dislike programming	[22:38]
moriarty	pshaw	[22:38]
decimation	I think it has been mooted here that the reason why the early (1800's) us worked for awhile is because of the memories of law&order beaten into the parents & grandparents of those living here	[22:38]
moriarty	!up daybyter	[22:38]
moriarty	awh :) daybyter wanted to say something on the main	[22:39]
*	asciilifeform in fact dislikes programming	[22:39]
decimation	!up daybyter	[22:39]
*	assbot gives voice to daybyter	[22:39]
moriarty	asciilifeform, yeah i think nobody likes coding for the sake of coding	[22:39]
decimation	asciilifeform: yeah reading your blog has removed the romance of programming for me	[22:39]
moriarty	most people i know who like coding actually mistake their liking for solving puzzles, for liking coding	[22:39]
decimation	when I was younger, I wanted to explore the infinite potential	[22:39]
mircea_popescu	decimation the 1800s worked because at the time europe was mismanaging human resources, and so you could actually get free value by just taking its rejects. then early 1900s worked because the whole country obeyed its betters, so carnegie, rockefeller et co could create a monopoly on the world.	[22:40]
mircea_popescu	once that died, the country died.	[22:40]
decimation	yeah that died with wwi, wilson and fdr	[22:40]
decimation	and the mass suicide of europe	[22:40]
mircea_popescu	it got a lease on life once eu once again decided to mismanaged, ]	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	and bombed itself into chad in ww2	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	but that's also running out.	[22:41]
moriarty	didn't the 1800s also work because EU projected its dominance globally through colonialism?	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	left to stand on its own, buffett's "immense potential" will die under the paws of some young lion	[22:42]
mircea_popescu	whether that young lion is mp or not.	[22:42]
decimation	I suspect the American Caesar walks the earth somewhere	[22:42]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[22:42]
mircea_popescu	i'll bet you he doesn't.	[22:42]
decimation	in the sense that the dying country will split rather than come under stronger central rule?	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	in the sense that a boring place can not have interesting people.	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	this is like saying kentucky has a hemingway	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	orly.	[22:43]
decimation	heh. he did spend most of his life adventuring among the gauls	[22:44]
mircea_popescu	but as such he exists because new york, not because lincoln, nebraska.	[22:44]
mircea_popescu	the american caesar, if he exists, will caesarize in chile or w/e.	[22:45]
decimation	this is an illusion to some extant, because new york/coastal cities suck the intelligent youth from flyover country	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	well, now the whole us is flyover country.	[22:45]
decimation	when usd is no longer king, new york sudden finds itself ... lacking value	[22:46]
[]bot	Bet placed: 17 BTC for No on "1BTC >= $10,000 USD" http://bitbet.us/bet/635/ Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 15(Y):85(N) by weight. Total bet: 830.28919187 BTC. Current weight: 16,739.	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform wants to escape it. why ? and how is his desire different from young peasant kid in village in russia cca 1814	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	or housewife in midwest in 1964 ?	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	"it sucks at home". course it does. cause boring place with boring people.	[22:47]
*	gernika has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[22:47]
decimation	or the german farmer circa 1850	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	it's not even a matter of whether social justice and pc and the rest of the crap is right or wrong	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	for all anyone cares, the ideas of midwest people re cattle and rain are right.	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	just nobody wanted to sit there and discuss that.	[22:47]
decimation	boredom is a powerful motivator	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	quite. and intellectually dead places go beddy-bye whether they agree they're intellectually dead or not.	[22:49]
decimation	this is one of the 'safety valves' of mass-democracy (like in scotland)	[22:49]
decimation	the illusion of a mysterious outcome keeps the people invested	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	not sure how long that lasts, and it selects negatively.	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	the ones it keeps you didn't want. much like africa forever, much like renaissance europe ec.	[22:50]
asciilifeform	decimation: 'valve' << except for the problem that the defeated are left alive, to stink loudly and plan a comeback	[22:50]
decimation	which is why victory is so terrible for the triumphant empire	[22:51]
mircea_popescu	i really was expecting independence	[22:52]
decimation	independence would have been the more amusing outcome, for sure	[22:52]
decimation	It would be fun to watch an english-speaking enclave go full libtard	[22:52]
asciilifeform	independence << that is only a permitted outcome when the 'orcs' vote.	[22:52]
mircea_popescu	i still dunno wtf they did to make such a wide margin happen.	[22:53]
decimation	They should have allowed infants to vote	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	or maybe i don't well understand the structures of incentive, not living there	[22:53]
*	gernika (~gernika@184.250.251.3) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	but why would anyone want in the uk ?!	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	it's like wanting to be part of puerto rico	[22:53]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: unless i'm misinformed, scotland runs deep in the red.	[22:53]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[22:54]
asciilifeform	snip it off - get a 'greece'.	[22:54]
decimation	I suspect a big voting bloc were welfare recipients who feared the sudden lack of welfare bezzlars	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	decimation but they got the oil	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	so they can borrow anew	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	so... MORE welfare.	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	not less	[22:54]
decimation	that's a good point	[22:54]
decimation	and welfare states work much better when the population is smaller	[22:54]
decimation	ie kuwait	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	plus, russia'd have loved to sponsor them	[22:55]
*	fanquake_ (~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	which is why i expected landslide independence rly.	[22:55]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: ^ precisely why this outcome wasn't on the menu.	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	seemed to me putin's counter to the ukraine. fuck with us, lose the uk sorta deal.	[22:55]
decimation	russia would love to shower scotland with bezzlars so he could use them as a wedge to split the eu	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	imagine, russian nuke subs in glasgow.	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	while england's own "fleet", w/e it is lol... do they still have it btw ?	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	1 1/2 subs	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	desperate for dresden passage	[22:56]
decimation	yeah they still have a handful of nuke subs	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	hardly a handful im sure	[22:56]
asciilifeform	perhaps ru subs are already in glasgow. without having to also keep scots as pets.	[22:56]
decimation	I think they recently retired their 'aircraft carrier'	[22:56]
decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Invincible_%28R05%29	[22:57]
assbot	HMS Invincible (R05) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[22:57]
bounce	!up moriarty	[22:57]
*	assbot gives voice to moriarty	[22:57]
moriarty	so i bet on scotland outcome	[22:58]
moriarty	and came out $250k richer	[22:58]
*	fanquake has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[22:58]
moriarty	life has been good to me	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	1/4 mn ?!	[22:59]
moriarty	yep	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	where the hell did you bet that	[22:59]
moriarty	william hill	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	hey, wd.	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	what were the ods ?	[22:59]
moriarty	1/4	[22:59]
decimation	reading the history of the falklands war demonstrates how threadbare the uk military really is	[23:00]
moriarty	thanks, it's a nice outcome after months of boring market action	[23:00]
moriarty	the only country in the world with serious military gear is the US	[23:00]
bounce	there's russia still	[23:01]
moriarty	and as of this moment, they are being led by a pussyfoot for a president	[23:01]
bounce	oh and china	[23:01]
moriarty	lol china	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	no. china.	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	the us is negligible by comparison.	[23:01]
moriarty	china has to deceive russia into thinking it is using some old aircraft carrier as museum showpiece	[23:01]
*	fanquake_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)	[23:01]
moriarty	just so it can get its hands on it	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	you can tell this by the very good predictor that when china told the us to get fucked, the us secretary of state promised to carefully avoid misunderstandings in the future	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	in the most humble display of abjection imaginable.	[23:02]
moriarty	china has economic might not military clout	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	you are ill informed.	[23:02]
bounce	if china cared enough it could zerg rush just about anyone. plus their gear is getting better -- best stolen from anywhere.	[23:02]
moriarty	lol	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	much better than that, even.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	90s was "better - stolen"	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	today, forget it.	[23:03]
moriarty	china's military hardware is up for speculation	[23:03]
moriarty	until the day it actually uses it, we can argue to no end	[23:03]
moriarty	for now, their leadership is even more pussyfooted than obama	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	or we could read secret dispatches, check out how the various actors behave around it, who knows, even go to a military expo.	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	that's never changing. china is a shitty agressor.	[23:04]
decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck << it took 11 refueling planes for one bomber to bomb stanley field in the falklands	[23:04]
moriarty	its aggressions are all economical so far	[23:04]
assbot	Operation Black Buck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[23:04]
bounce	sure. but you'll note that when the us started to use all those beltway bandit toys they broke in droves and could be pwned by IEDs	[23:04]
moriarty	"do this or we won't sell you cheap shit"	[23:04]
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mircea_popescu	moriarty china just isn't particularly aggressive.	[23:05]
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bounce	the us not only has the most advanced toys anywhere, it relies on them being so. china wouldn't have to. big difference.	[23:05]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, china is actually pretty aggressive territorially	[23:05]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, have you seen the latest china passport?	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	what about it ?	[23:05]
decimation	they have been derping in the south china sea recently	[23:05]
moriarty	decimation, exactly	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	well yeah, it being the south CHINA sea	[23:06]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, the passport outlines where china thinks its borders are	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	suppose someone was derping in anchorage bay.	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	moriarty hardly aggression.	[23:06]
decimation	http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-philippines-usa-idUSBREA4107020140502	[23:06]
assbot	Philippines to give U.S. forces access to up to five military bases\| Reuters	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	aggression is when it comes to bomb canada and expects the us to mind its own fucking business.	[23:06]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, economic aggression can be just as painful	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	pain is not the basis of this discussion.	[23:07]
moriarty	mircea_popescu, as russia is finding out as a result of ukraine	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	you're misinformed :)	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	russia is fine. the us is too high to notice how fucked it's getting.	[23:07]
decimation	moriarty: it looks to me russia has the whip hand	[23:07]
decimation	what exactly is the us going to do about the ukraine? invade?	[23:07]
moriarty	decimation, in terms of land grab, maybe	[23:07]
*	stormlight (~stormligh@c-24-23-231-181.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:08]
moriarty	decimation, but for the cost of its own GDP	[23:08]
moriarty	i don't know	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	no, in terms of who gets flattened by an economic war	[23:08]
decimation	russia's oil will find buyers	[23:08]
moriarty	well, the US won't be affected by the embargo so much actually	[23:08]
moriarty	EU is the one who has to suffer	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	o, i see :D	[23:08]
decimation	last I read in the newspapers, Germany is pretty much on Russia's side	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	because the eu is so fucking married to the us and everything.	[23:09]
moriarty	of course	[23:09]
moriarty	because Germany has more to lose	[23:09]
moriarty	well, partially that	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	moriarty no, because the us is getting screwed in its imaginary economic war.	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	and germany doesn't want to be in the fallout	[23:09]
moriarty	but also the EU has more energy dependency on Russia than the US	[23:09]
decimation	this is true, but the us is itching to start exporting natural gas by ship	[23:10]
*	assbot removes voice from daybyter	[23:10]
decimation	no one is going to go without gas or whatever	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	such an ineffectual process dear lord	[23:10]
bounce	so, us gas aid for ukraine then?	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	"let's save the environment by shipping natural gas across the atlantic because we're too bigmouthed to fit a cock"	[23:10]
decimation	I see it in the cards	[23:10]
moriarty	lol	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	bounce yes. airlifted :D	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	ich been ain odesseer	[23:11]
decimation	Odessa used to have a very large german population until Stalin	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	it's what makes the joke good	[23:11]
decimation	hehe	[23:12]
moriarty	anyway one of the nice perks of the war is that, Ukrainian beauties now come cheap	[23:12]
decimation	the mass rabble in the us will have no stomach for intervening in the ukraine	[23:12]
moriarty	:)	[23:12]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00074843 = 9.5799 BTC [-] {2}	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	they've alsways been.	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	sooo... yesterday was trilema's largest reading day. yet nothing happened. 90%+ of it direct, too. wtf.	[23:15]
decimation	http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/history_culture/history/german_american_journal1.html	[23:15]
decimation	"The Germans from Russia are descendents of Germans who settled in Russia in the years about 1763 to 1862. Their story begins with Tsarina Catherine II (Catherine the Great) who was empress of Russia, but a German princess by birth. In July 1763 she issued a manifesto to attract people from Western Europe to settle in Russia. The manifesto promised new settlers freedom of religion, freedom from taxes for a 5-30 year period, freedom	[23:16]
decimation	from military service, and free land to farmers. By the end of 1767, German settlers from central Germany had established more than 100 colonies along the Volga River, near Saratov, Russia."	[23:16]
decimation	mircea_popescu: presumably people were googling for reasons why bitcoin prices were falling	[23:16]
moriarty	afk folks, enjoy the weekend	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	decimation i'd see it as search not as direct. meanwhile search incoming is dominated by keywords like "true"	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	seriously, 20% of my search traffic came looking for... "true" ? what the fucking hell of a cosmic joke is this.	[23:17]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.141905 = 0.5676 BTC [+] {2}	[23:17]
decimation	huh. do the redirects come from particular domains?	[23:17]
*	lnostdal has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	they're not redirects. in fact, linked traffic has always been 10% or less, as far as trilema is concerned.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	this month it's more like 4%	[23:18]
decimation	interesting. So that means people are visiting from bookmarks/rss/etc?	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	yeah	[23:20]
*	jborkl (~jborkl@unaffiliated/jborkl) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	well i guess if they have silent (non js, non url-forwarding etc) browsers it could be from anywhere	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	trilema is really non-js friendly so i guess it prolly has more nonjs readers than average interwebs	[23:20]
*	non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[23:21]
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mircea_popescu	"one of the great strengths of the APL ecosystem so far are the user community. Lispy people are a preposterously pricklish and unhelpful bunch in comparison."	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	is this true even ?	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	"But part of it definitely stems from the incessant stream of ignorant criticisms leveled at the Lisp community by outsiders" asciilifeform it occurs to me that if the outsiders can do that then the whole ecosystem empowers outsiders to an outrageous, unwarranted and quite dangerous degree.	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	if your highschool peers can make you antisocial by claiming you're antisocial then there's no incentive for them to abstain is there.	[23:24]
ben_vulpes	programmers are the herdiest of creatures	[23:25]
ben_vulpes	witness the insane popularity of v8 - js on the server!	[23:25]
ben_vulpes	also infected with "niceness" - don't talk shit on js! it's not nice!	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	i choose not to witness.	[23:26]
bounce	saves going door to door	[23:26]
decimation	no dude node.js is going to change everything	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	everything that passport.net did or w/e that crap was called	[23:27]
*	assbot removes voice from moriarty	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	i can't read locklin without him annoying me. such a total schmoozeball.	[23:29]
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mircea_popescu	"advertising is a symptom of insufficient demand or insufficient supply." naggum o.O	[23:36]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'antisocial' in this case is same kind of 'antisocial' as, e.g., mathematicians who won't ask to learn from redditors how to do topology 'correctly according to the kommyoonity!'	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	this is what i meant, obliquely. if you allow the "community" of screaming monkeys to decide whether you are antisocial type 1 or 2, you're giving them too much power.	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	and if you conform by doing the "since they call me a thief anyway might as well", you are actually giving away that much power.	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	consider a simpler case, let me find it.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	if surrounded by monkeys, and for one reason or another can't call an exterminator - what to do.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	in this case - walls.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	walls tall enough that the monkeys don't even know, normally, that there is a something behind them, or walls at all.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	sometimes - a chimp finds a loose brick, and you have a little infestation problem.	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	"The site is owned by the most annoying, donkey riding arsehole involved with bitcoin." "Unlike all the others, owned by nice people that ran off with your coins." "I wish that arsehole would run off with all the coins if it meant never hearing from him again."	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	this should make it obvious. of course redditard monkey would love nothing more than for his idiocy to be confirmed.	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	important to remember that his declarative statements are powerless to influence reality, and as much as he'd like to live in a world where there's no incentive for me to stay honest,	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless the world and his like have no common points.	[23:41]
asciilifeform	the most unbearable itch, to monkey, is the mental hole in his picture of the world, the annoying hatefact that rubs his nose in the entire model being horseshit.	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	right.	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	but what would be the equivalent to "lisp people being prickly" in context ?	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	me splitting with everyone's cash because some redditard says things ?	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	nonsense, that. equally nonsense in both cases.	[23:42]
*	ben_vulpes is a monkey with tools beyond his sophisticaiton	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	you can't become prickly just because people are idiots. it's giving idiots too much say.	[23:43]
asciilifeform	they are 'prickly' in the sense that their only contact with a world outside their own is redditards knocking on the door to 'teach how the world is'	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	perhaps.	[23:43]
decimation	the next step is to become a hermit in the taiga I guess	[23:44]
asciilifeform	http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3676	[23:44]
assbot	Not all programmers are alike: a language rant \| Locklin on science	[23:44]
asciilifeform	hermit in taiga :	[23:44]
asciilifeform	!s perelman mode	[23:44]
assbot	3 results for 'perelman mode' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=perelman+mode	[23:44]
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*	assbot gives voice to RagnarDanneskjol	[23:45]
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*	assbot gives voice to bitstein	[23:46]
ben_vulpes	whoa abcl runs on the jvm	[23:46]
ben_vulpes	my ignorance knows no bounds	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	hence boundless ignorance ? that ignorance ignorant even of bounds ?	[23:47]
ben_vulpes	i know not what i know not	[23:48]
ben_vulpes	alternatively, i know i know naught	[23:48]
decimation	re: model being horeshit: "Because, we know that with theoretical cherry picking someone can come up with a set of assumptions that produces a result that may logically follow from those assumptions, but if the assumptions really don't have much traction in the real world, that result really doesn't have much to say about what we are actually looking at. " << from my econtalk link above	[23:49]
mircea_popescu	decimation it's worse than that! consider : you could pick arbitrary assumptions and arbitrary data sets so as to theoretically and practically justify a particular theory sufficiently so that it gives the desired results for a FINITE time interval, calculated to exceed the probable testing period.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	this is how us kids learn for exams, for instance.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	fraud through and through, and yet.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	proponents of such tailored "knowledge" will understandably fight tooth and nail with some classes of rational approach, such as the people who use the counterexample effectually (aka, trolls)	[23:52]
mircea_popescu	amusingly enough, for the capacities of the basic rational agent, they'd seem to have a point, too!	[23:52]
decimation	moriarty earlier said that such an attitude is 'simplistic' - after all, how can these people (economists, programmers, students) have so many papers and have said nothing?	[23:53]
*	bitstein has quit (Quit: bitstein)	[23:53]
mircea_popescu	i would suggest the volume in and of itself is proof they say nothing.	[23:54]
asciilifeform	this relates directly to certain circles seen as 'prickly'	[23:56]
asciilifeform	it comes mainly from not wishing to dissolve in the sea.	[23:57]
asciilifeform	not everyone is itching to be part of some gigantic 'everyone' who will 'do things their way'	[23:57]
asciilifeform	naggum wrote that the worst thing that could possibly happen to common lisp is if it became 'mainstream' and popular.	[23:58]
mircea_popescu	but that is a much more self aware, and effectually applied, violence than mere prickliness.	[23:58]
mircea_popescu	it's being an ashole deliberately and oppressing selected idiots wilfully.	[23:58]
mircea_popescu	maybe wrongly, but the term to me suggested involuntary and incontinence. which is what the entire observation was based on, after all :	[23:59]
mircea_popescu	if it's voluntary, if the prickly is passive, then the other party is active, and to the active goes the agency.	[23:59]
mircea_popescu	too much agency for a monkey.	[23:59]

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