Forum logs for 20 Sep 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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mircea_popescu ;;ticker [00:19]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 399.84, Best ask: 400.74, Bid-ask spread: 0.90000, Last trade: 400.74, 24 hour volume: 31890.07768146, 24 hour low: 378.78, 24 hour high: 436.85, 24 hour vwap: 404.276161033 [00:19]
mircea_popescu so 4 is this new 5 ? i don't like this fortran. [00:19]
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BingoBoingo [00:22]
assbot Apple’s dangerous game - The Washington Post [00:22]
Duffer1 govt will just invoke patriot act and require them to backdoor it [00:24]
mthreat From two days ago: [00:26]
assbot Double bottom? /hashtag/oversold?src=hash /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash [00:26]
mthreat That's the problem with double bottoms... they always look like double bottoms at first. [00:27]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 111 @ 0.14267264 = 15.8367 BTC [-] {8} [00:29]
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BingoBoingo !up tatonaplane [00:30]
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tatonaplane dude that apple article... [00:31]
BingoBoingo Dude, you are on a plane [00:31]
tatonaplane I thought unwashed reading bitcoinmagazine for a sec [00:31]
tatonaplane lol [00:31]
tatonaplane unwashed=I was [00:32]
ben_vulpes zidarski on apple's seekyooritee: [00:33]
assbot Your iOS 8 Data is Not Beyond Law Enforcement’s Reach… Yet. | Jonathan Zdziarski's Domain [00:33]
ben_vulpes nb, have not read yet [00:33]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40719 @ 0.00074981 = 30.5315 BTC [-] {2} [00:47]
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dub like apple user doesnt secretly want her nude selfies leaked online [01:10]
mod6 ya srsly [01:10]
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[]bot Bet placed: 5 BTC for No on "Billion dollar bet?" Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 17(Y):83(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.06 BTC. Current weight: 99,913. [01:14]
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penguirker New blog post: [01:23]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39200 @ 0.00074923 = 29.3698 BTC [-] {2} [01:48]
penguirker New blog post: [01:58]
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BingoBoingo [02:01]
assbot Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU) [02:01]
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mircea_popescu That's the problem with double bottoms... they always look like double bottoms at first. << word. [02:05]
mircea_popescu wtf is [02:06]
mircea_popescu like apple user doesnt secretly want her nude selfies leaked online << you mean the photoshopped nudies hackers obsessed with her made ? [02:07]
BingoBoingo %p [02:09]
atcbot >> No data returned from << [PityThePool Hashrate]: 168.59 GH/s [iSpace Pool Hashrate]: 1.16 TH/s [02:09]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla ? [02:10]
assbot BitBet - Gold above $1200 on November 1st :: 0.06 B (10%) on Yes, 0.54 B (90%) on No | closing in 4 weeks 1 day| weight: 99`341 (100`000 to 1) [02:10]
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kakobrekla what, they are right there? [02:11]
mircea_popescu ah my bad [02:11]
mircea_popescu so BABA mkt cap close to 1/4 trillion ? [02:13]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 14 @ 0.064 = 0.896 BTC [-] [02:14]
mircea_popescu who knew we'll live in the time of such richness. [02:14]
mircea_popescu i remember seeing films which thought 1mn dollars was a fabulous reward [02:14]
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mircea_popescu !up Jamesonwa [02:21]
-assbot- You voiced Jamesonwa for 30 minutes. [02:21]
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BingoBoingo I'm off for a bit. If I'm not back by Monday... maybe worry I've been captured. [02:21]
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mats_cd03 kek [02:30]
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kakobrekla [02:52]
assbot Paper Backup Stores Private Keys in the Browser History - Bitzuma [02:52]
kakobrekla hehe [02:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15650 @ 0.0007494 = 11.7281 BTC [+] [02:54]
mircea_popescu web wallets are such a winningful idea. [02:56]
ben_vulpes get outa hea! [02:57]
kakobrekla seems ok that bitzuma, on the first glance [02:59]
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mircea_popescu << this is hysterical. [03:18]
assbot Disastrous Dating in Buenos Aires, Argentina: 2008 edition | Global Dating Diaries [03:18]
mircea_popescu us chick in a car with a stud that outruns the cops, she has something to bitch about. [03:19]
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mircea_popescu bonus points for strategically covering behind purse pic. [03:21]
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gernika gilgames1ugga Ginux_ GNULinuxGuy go1111111 Graet gribble GSpotAssassin___ Guest50769 Guest84681______ Guest91780 guntha_ guruvan gustaf [03:29]
gernika gilgames1ugga Ginux_ GNULinuxGuy go1111111 Graet gribble GSpotAssassin___ Guest50769 Guest84681______ Guest91780 guntha_ guruvan gustaf [03:29]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23300 @ 0.0007494 = 17.461 BTC [+] [03:40]
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mircea_popescu so no lilo day huh. [03:51]
asciilifeform [03:53]
asciilifeform ^ 'heresy - it hurts.' [03:53]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.0007494 = 15.4751 BTC [+] [03:58]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 930 @ 0.00075 = 0.6975 BTC [+] [04:25]
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decimation << microsoft seekyourity [04:50]
assbot Microsoft reorgs its Trustworthy Computing group; cuts some staff | ZDNet [04:50]
decimation the mind reels. one wonders who the patron of the said 'trustworthy computing group' would be... and why they are no longer calling the tunes? [04:51]
asciilifeform decimation: easy riddle. 'fritz chip' was finished, shipped, now ubiquitous. no more need for group. [04:52]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you know the story with the guy hired to make the best church ever [04:52]
mircea_popescu then killed when done [04:52]
asciilifeform a la egyptians [04:52]
asciilifeform or the traditional 'they poked the architect's eyes out' [04:53]
mircea_popescu so i joined all other bitcoin channels. (from ) [04:53]
assbot Bitcoin - Chat Rooms on IRC Network freenode - Bitcoin, Currencies - [04:53]
decimation There is indeed a relationship between the Microsoft Trustworthy Computer Group and the Trusted Computing Group [04:54]
mircea_popescu every fucking thing is dead. an hour and 0 content except for btc-pricetalk which is 100% derpage overdrive [04:54]
assbot The Trusted Computing Conference Announces Microsoft, the Trusted Computing Group and Wave Systems Corp. as Diamond Sponsors [04:54]
mircea_popescu diamond eh [04:54]
asciilifeform every fucking thing is dead << i started out in perhaps 4 different ones, stayed here because alive. [04:54]
decimation Trusted computing group is indeed the author of the 'fritz chip' specs [04:55]
mircea_popescu decimation if you're into humint, follow where the employees "let off" go. [04:55]
mircea_popescu roughly the same as following marker iodine through a body. [04:55]
asciilifeform who really believes they were let free into the world. [04:56]
mircea_popescu anyway, an easily overlooked point about bitcoin is that it's well proven we can make terrorist computers [04:56]
mircea_popescu should idiocy a la tcg actually arrive to critical mass [04:56]
asciilifeform since 'tutankhamon' solution was presumably not used - then stowed away elsewhere. [04:56]
mircea_popescu that threat alone is enough to prevent successful adoption. [04:57]
decimation The problem that usg has is that they would have to get china to buy into whatever 'secure computing' solution they want to push [04:58]
asciilifeform fritz chip carries on as a diversion only, not an honest effort. the folks in usg with remaining working neurons realized after 'clipper' that a plainly labelled bull's eye - is dumb. [04:58]
asciilifeform diffuse poison - smarter. [04:58]
asciilifeform analogous situation from history: [05:02]
asciilifeform in early nukes, there was no lock. [05:02]
asciilifeform when (americans - afaik, no one else) felt a desire for locks, the first such took the form of little 'safes', modules similar to car ignition boxes of the time. [05:02]
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asciilifeform this was a threadbare solution, for obvious reasons - easy to spot where 'the goods' sit; know where to 'hotwire.' [05:03]
asciilifeform so then final lock was placed as a turd in the fissile core (in fusion nukes, fissile initiator, almost same) [05:04]
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mats_cd03 >> jews [05:04]
decimation [05:04]
asciilifeform in such a way that the turd would interfere with proper operation unless fed the correct magic [05:04]
mats_cd03 assbot dead? [05:04]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.0007494 = 9.5174 BTC [+] [05:04]
asciilifeform and, being where it is, would neither be apparent nor easily reached by an enemy. [05:04]
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mats_cd03 it just occurred to me how much of a fight btc is going to be in for with the usd over the next decade [05:05]
decimation asciilifeform: the analogous situation with computers is buried inside the silicon of course [05:05]
mats_cd03 i mean, btc will win regardless, but... if buttstamp and co were able to dump btc with so few coins [05:05]
mats_cd03 what can they do with 400k [05:06]
decimation mats_cd03: we are still in the minor leagues it's true [05:06]
asciilifeform decimation: right. why place 'fritz chip' as a distinct physical bugger, where it is both apparent and easily manipulated. [05:06]
mats_cd03 at this juncture i think 30 BTCUSD is not infeasible [05:06]
asciilifeform why not 0.30 [05:07]
kakobrekla wont go below 2. [05:09]
asciilifeform at 2 kakobrekla sells his airplane and buys the entire lot ? [05:10]
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kakobrekla me - no. someone else - yes. [05:10]
asciilifeform point re: 0.30 etc is that if the 'tame' exchanges are sufficiently decoupled from physical reality, then there is no bottom. [05:10]
mats_cd03 i for one would buy thousands of btc if it went to 0.3, and im sure many in this channel would too. it'd hasten the demise of some common enemies [05:10]
asciilifeform in that you won't be let through the door to buy up the cheapo coin [05:11]
nubbins` !s warrant canary [05:11]
assbot 5 results for 'warrant canary' : [05:11]
nubbins` ah [05:11]
kakobrekla if you cant buy it, price is irrelevant [05:13]
asciilifeform correct [05:13]
nubbins` 0-249 [05:13]
decimation if you guys really think that the exchanges are 'decoupled with reality' then you should buy while its cheap, right? [05:13]
kakobrekla so, it decouples itself from otc [05:13]
asciilifeform but an 'official' price will exist, if only for the consumption of the faux btc press [05:13]
kakobrekla like gox decoupled from stamp [05:13]
mats_cd03 perhaps they believe that it will get cheaper still. [05:13]
kakobrekla was it stamp 500 and gox 100 or something like that? [05:14]
asciilifeform buy while its cheap << go try and buy. [05:14]
mats_cd03 even less at one point no? [05:14]
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decimation what is the usd price on -otc? [05:15]
kakobrekla afaik is still following the exchange rate [05:15]
kakobrekla i mean [05:15]
kakobrekla 'the exchange rate' [05:15]
nubbins` ^ [05:15]
nubbins` bitstamp is the null argument ;D [05:16]
mats_cd03 22:12:52 <+asciilifeform> buy while its cheap << go try and buy. << not a problem for anyone thats not american, i suppose. [05:16]
decimation if you find a mob who is all derping the same thing, is it a conspiracy or organic knowledge discovery? [05:16]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 120 @ 0.00690002 = 0.828 BTC [+] [05:16]
kakobrekla nubbins` yeah but yuropeans are shy. [05:16]
asciilifeform mats_cd03: if you use an american-style exchange (afaik, all public exchanges track participants' meatspace identities in some way) you haven't really escaped from anything. [05:17]
nubbins` all the canadian exchanges require id [05:17]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 331 @ 0.0104 = 3.4424 BTC [-] {2} [05:17]
mats_cd03 there's knowing my identity, though. and then there's being able to touch me. [05:17]
kakobrekla if you can wire to EU than you can get btc in otc [05:17]
kakobrekla for us idk [05:17]
asciilifeform mats_cd03: know - today, touch - tomorrow. [05:18]
mats_cd03 its okay, i have faith the usg will mismanage itself into oblivion long before the dollar fails from due course [05:18]
nubbins` taste - thursday [05:18]
mats_cd03 you dont have to wait til thursday nubbins` ;) [05:18]
nubbins` ;D [05:18]
mats_cd03 you faggot. [05:19]
asciilifeform mats_cd03: usg is the only party you would like to keep from fully knowing how much you hold and what ? [05:19]
nubbins` hey now [05:19]
mats_cd03 sorry, i'm rude [05:19]
decimation [05:19]
assbot American Bitcoin exchange CEO, 28, researched suicide methods before jumping from a Singapore highrise due to 'work and personal issues' | Daily Mail Online [05:19]
mats_cd03 'bitcoin CEO' [05:19]
nubbins` gross, daily mail [05:19]
kakobrekla did he rm wallet.dat ? [05:20]
decimation are we saying that the new york times is respectable now? [05:20]
mats_cd03 asciilifeform: i guess not. but, that would be the least of my problems if i lived in, say, cape verde. [05:20]
kakobrekla o wait, its a she [05:20]
nubbins` the new what times? [05:20]
mats_cd03 although islands are not particularly good for hiding from usg. [05:20]
kakobrekla due to 'work and personal issues' < buttcoins take too long to load, imma jump ! [05:21]
decimation "On February 10, Radtke posted a link to an essay entitled 'The Psychological Price of Entrepreneurship' and commented obliquely that 'Everything has it's price'. In comments posted on the day her death was announced, her friend Krystal Choo, who founded the online travel firm ZipTrip, said that 'This exact post has been killing me." [05:21]
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asciilifeform next year, after binge of dope in cia operative station: 'trial of cocaine baron takes bizarre turn after evidence - bag from his toilet tank - turns out to contain treatise on suicide methods. kilo of cocaine found in pocket of shitcoin ceo who jumped from tower.' [05:21]
asciilifeform so some fellow mixed up two parcels. happens. [05:22]
nubbins` decimation: related links: "15 smallest celebrity butts" [05:22]
decimation what is this 'price of entrepreneurship'? if your job sucks, leave? why jump out the window? [05:23]
kakobrekla that one personalized to you nubbins` [05:23]
cazalla i thought brock pierce knocked that chick off [05:23]
nubbins` lel [05:23]
decimation asciilifeform: in Singapore drug possession in sufficient quantity is punishable by death [05:24]
decimation no need to stage suicide [05:24]
asciilifeform decimation: folks can talk on the gallows. [05:24]
asciilifeform and in trial. [05:24]
asciilifeform wouldn't do. [05:24]
asciilifeform elementary - otherwise, why ever kill anyone, when you can frame them [05:25]
decimation I think it is more likely that some chinese mobsters got screwed [05:25]
decimation not that it really matters much to the deceased [05:26]
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asciilifeform whoever bumped off the girl, the Sg gov happily covers for him. [05:27]
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mike_c this is ancient news, yes? [05:27]
asciilifeform it being a tendril of the octopus in good standing (whatever appearances to the contrary) - why susprised. [05:27]
asciilifeform *surprised [05:27]
decimation yeah, the 'new news' is the coroner's report [05:27]
asciilifeform mike_c: the death - ancient news [05:28]
mike_c ah [05:28]
decimation which octopus is the question [05:28]
mike_c only 7 months for the coroner's report. efficient! [05:28]
decimation actually singapore is one of the most efficient governments in the world [05:29]
asciilifeform efficient - at what. [05:29]
asciilifeform the word 'efficient' alone is meaningless. [05:29]
mike_c efficient at examining dead bodies. [05:29]
decimation efficient at producing ambigous reports [05:29]
nubbins` efficient at don't chew gum [05:31]
decimation [05:31]
assbot Man climbs White House fence; races toward mansion before being seized - The Washington Post [05:31]
decimation another volunteer for the gulag [05:31]
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mats_cd03 a cry for help [05:40]
decimation hey asciilifeform, how do you 'type' russian? Do you use an X keyboard overlay? [05:40]
asciilifeform gtk input dialogue [05:42]
asciilifeform or, when quoting, ordinary paste. [05:42]
decimation ah interesting. I tried the 'german' overlay but I just found it really annoying ('tis a QWERTZ layout') [05:44]
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mats_cd03 [05:51]
assbot Large malvertising campaign under way involving DoubleClick and Zedo | Malwarebytes Unpacked [05:51]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 28247 @ 0.00003549 = 1.0025 BTC [-] {11} [05:54]
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decimation another reason to use noscript I guess [05:57]
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asciilifeform << censored official american 'intro' on lev theremin. [06:15]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2804 @ 0.00072952 = 2.0456 BTC [-] {4} [06:28]
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peterl question about bitbet: are fees booked as income when the bets are placed or when the bets are resolved? [06:30]
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mike_c to put a different way, is all that brk money going out as divs this month? :) [06:38]
peterl yeah, that was what I was wondering? [06:39]
peterl but other bets have been heating up too [06:39]
mike_c monthly statements indicate it's when bets are resolved. [06:39]
mike_c [06:40]
assbot BitBet (S.BBET) August 2014 Statement pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [06:40]
mike_c says 442 BTC in bets, but 1.96 btc was income from bets resolved [06:40]
peterl aha, thanks [06:40]
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mircea_popescu peterl when resolved. [06:42]
mircea_popescu so yes bitbet is sitting on something like 30 btc in unrealised fees that will come in during the next ~6 months [06:43]
mircea_popescu mats_cd03: assbot dead? << well the logs were working [06:43]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.14222727 = 1.5645 BTC [-] {3} [06:44]
mircea_popescu mats_cd03:it just occurred to me how much of a fight btc is going to be in for with the usd over the next decade < duh :) [06:44]
mircea_popescu mats_cd03: i for one would buy thousands of btc if it went to 0.3, and im sure many in this channel would too. it'd hasten the demise of some common enemies << thousands, srsly ? [06:44]
mircea_popescu i'd simply buy it all. [06:44]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla: like gox decoupled from stamp << pretty much [06:45]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 8 @ 0.141 = 1.128 BTC [-] [06:46]
mircea_popescu decimation: if you find a mob who is all derping the same thing, is it a conspiracy or organic knowledge discovery? <<< it's the internet :D [06:46]
peterl you can't buy it all, the rest of us want a share too [06:46]
mircea_popescu jesus i missed all the fun [06:46]
mircea_popescu peterl kinda the point. [06:46]
mircea_popescu mats_cd03: its okay, i have faith the usg will mismanage itself into oblivion long before the dollar fails from due course << this is like hoping the heart will cease functioning long before the liver gives in. in reality, they're so interconnected their demise is a cvasi-simultaneous event willy-nilly. [06:47]
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mircea_popescu ugs can survive a coupla weeks with a dead currency ; currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg on whose faith and credit it is based. [06:48]
mircea_popescu assbot: American Bitcoin exchange CEO, 28, researched suicide methods before jumping from a Singapore highrise due to 'work and personal issues' | Daily Mail Online <<< they forgot to mention what he read. it was [06:49]
assbot Viata suge, cum ne omoram ? pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [06:49]
mircea_popescu nubbins`: efficient at don't chew gum << win. [06:51]
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decimation dead usg << I find it amusing that folks like the20year think that owning some raw land is a defense against such cataclysms [06:54]
decimation because 'own' has been redefined to mean "the government gives you permission to do X" [06:55]
mircea_popescu well that depends. [06:56]
mircea_popescu in general the more liquid an asset is, the more likely requisitioned. land is hard to carry so often left with it's alleged owner. [06:56]
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mircea_popescu what else ? a stash of gold is not "govt gives you permission" ? 300 bucks in a wallet ? [06:57]
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[]bot Bet placed: 7.22 BTC for Yes on "Dolar Blue over 20 Argentine Pesos on or before Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8th)" Odds: 60(Y):40(N) by coin, 58(Y):42(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.43237601 BTC. Current weight: 92,710. [07:05]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [18:07]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [18:07]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014 [18:07]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass. [18:07]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [18:08]
mircea_popescu meh apparently #b4056df6691f8dc72e56302ddad345d65fead3ead9299609a826e2344eb63aa4 can't be a channel name. [18:09]
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mircea_popescu !up moriarty [18:12]
-assbot- You voiced moriarty for 30 minutes. [18:12]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [18:12]
* moriarty burps [18:13]
mircea_popescu lol [18:13]
mircea_popescu so apparently reddit libertarians have a freenode channel. ##austrians [18:13]
moriarty lol pseudo-libertarians more like [18:14]
moriarty i was grossly disappointed to say the least [18:14]
moriarty they're mostly minarchists [18:14]
mircea_popescu o ? [18:14]
mircea_popescu ;;google minarchist [18:14]
gribble Minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: [18:14]
mircea_popescu ;;google minarchist -wikipedia [18:14]
gribble The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: ; minarchist on Tumblr: ; Difference Between Minarchist and Anarchist? - YouTube: [18:14]
moriarty well, half of them are minarchists, the other half are anarcho-capitalists [18:14]
moriarty so you could almost say they are the teaparty equivalents of libertarians [18:15]
mircea_popescu haha. [18:15]
mircea_popescu fwiw, i believe "free market" education to be plainly idiotic. [18:15]
mircea_popescu there's one language, it's purely conventional, this makes education purely arbitrary to begin with. [18:15]
moriarty what's your take on free market? [18:16]
mircea_popescu well i implement it wherever i can. seen the economy and sociology articles ? [18:16]
moriarty you believe educational flavour will change with linguistic medium? [18:16]
moriarty unfortunately not, link me? [18:17]
mircea_popescu well yes you know ? suppose zig ziglar sells a lot of books, and starts his own university, where he teaches kids words like "fail" don't exist. [18:17]
mircea_popescu you can't possibly allow change on the grounds of marketplace success like that. [18:17]
mircea_popescu it [18:17]
mircea_popescu s a fundamentally self defeating, socialist-driving approach. [18:18]
xmj hrm [18:18]
xmj moriarty: ancaps are boring [18:18]
moriarty xmj, it's an appealing ideology to be fair [18:18]
mircea_popescu moriarty > [18:18]
assbot A complete theory of sociology pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [18:18]
xmj moriarty: they talk, and talk, and push out academic papers- --- and never do antyhing. [18:18]
assbot A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [18:18]
xmj moriarty: trust me, i've been one for three years, i'd know. [18:18]
xmj moriarty: much better to read moldbug, be evil and call yourself royalist. [18:19]
xmj NRx :3 [18:19]
mircea_popescu o look, xmj still derping around on the basis of his 3 year experience. hai babee, how goes. [18:20]
moriarty mircea_popescu, Adam Smith is a classic if not a little dated, like most liberal arts field, perhaps it would be more helpful to consider more recent counterarguments like those by Jared Diamond [18:21]
mircea_popescu bring it ? [18:21]
moriarty but very nice article nevertheless, i haven't read something interesting in awhile :) [18:21]
bounce IMNSHO there's no universal magic perfect government size, so it comes down to choice. what do we want our government to do? well, maybe we could start a market to find out. [18:22]
moriarty Jared Diamond tries to take a holistic look into the apparently serendipitous distribution of wealth among nations [18:22]
mircea_popescu bounce the original idea of "voting with feet" as implemented in the us is exactly that. [18:22]
mircea_popescu let the us not be a federation of states but a marketplace of states. [18:22]
moriarty in his famous book, Guns, Germs and Steel [18:22]
moriarty :) [18:22]
mircea_popescu moriarty yeah but i mean, you can construct his argument and bring it at me see what happens [18:22]
bounce doesn't appear to've held up to the ages though. [18:23]
mircea_popescu well no, which is why celebrating traitors a la lincoln as some sort of national heroes is so mind boggling. [18:23]
moriarty xmj, lol moldbug is a blogger, i take it? [18:23]
mircea_popescu sorta like having stalin's statue in ukraina. [18:23]
mircea_popescu moriarty yeah he's the guy who spent 2012 insisting bitcoin can't survive, then started a bitcoin kiler of his own which we kiled [18:23]
xmj [18:24]
assbot Unqualified Reservations [18:24]
mircea_popescu and is now doing i dunno what, but probably not much. [18:24]
bounce bit of a problem where all you get is package deals run by people who, because they run the show, suddenly have all sorts of entrenched interests and become vulnerable to all kinds and manners of coercion [18:24]
xmj that's moldbug [18:24]
moriarty xmj, i got routed to ##austrians from ##econometrics when someone made an observation that some of my comments leaned towards ancap tendencies, so i'm newer to the scene, although i've always found a blend of hayes/keynes economics to be most delightful [18:24]
xmj he's pioneered a good deal of the "reactosphere" -- neoreactionary blogosphere [18:24]
mircea_popescu bounce that bit seems contradictory. how can you coerce the entrenched ? [18:24]
mircea_popescu reddit's been trying to coerce me for ages, so what ? [18:24]
bounce because it goes both ways. fingers in pies everywhere, stuffed envelopes from everywhere [18:25]
mircea_popescu moriarty o you from chile ? [18:26]
mircea_popescu bounce so then not so entrenched ? [18:26]
bounce hm. probably a hairsplitting confusion here [18:26]
moriarty mircea_popescu, well, i'd try not to dilute his book into a one-liner, but essentially a blend of technological warfare i.e. guns, a serendipitous adaptability to germs via advances in medicine, and progress in transport hulls made out of steel, which arose incidentally from ideal farming conditions e.g. arable land which gave rise to a choice of livestock, was why the seemingly unequal [18:26]
moriarty distribution of wealth [18:26]
moriarty mircea_popescu, in short, first-mover advantage [18:27]
moriarty mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work? [18:27]
mircea_popescu moriarty not the point to make a one liner, it's like chess. you construct his argument by asking me questions or w/e other discursive procedure you favour. [18:27]
mircea_popescu mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work? > [18:28]
assbot A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [18:28]
moriarty mircea_popescu, heh, well i made a fortune off bitcoin, but i never saw the point in holding a strong philosophical stance on the utility of cryptocurrencies [18:28]
moriarty xmj, thanks for the link [18:28]
mircea_popescu moriarty possibly because you didn't make a fortune large enough :) [18:28]
moriarty mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas [18:28]
moriarty :) [18:28]
xmj moriarty: just beware, neoreaction is still considered "evil" [18:29]
xmj parts of it are genuinely racist (they lablel themselves "human biodiversity" HBD) [18:29]
moriarty mircea_popescu, BBU as in Birkbeck? [18:30]
mircea_popescu ;;google babes-bolyiai university [18:30]
gribble UBB , Babes Bolyai University: ; UBB , Universitatea Babes Bolyai: ; Constantin Craciun profiles | LinkedIn: [18:30]
mircea_popescu that thing [18:30]
mircea_popescu mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas << nah it was because i was just laughing my ass off at this "galt's gulch" disaster. [18:31]
moriarty xmj, neoreaction from first glance off the internet appears to be one of those anachronistic romanticism :) [18:31]
mircea_popescu wanted to lol with a ;ocal. [18:31]
moriarty xmj, correct me if i'm wrong [18:31]
xmj no that's the neo part [18:31]
moriarty mircea_popescu, lol my fortune was in seven figures, so large enough for me :P [18:31]
xmj we are going to do it better [18:31]
mircea_popescu !b 1 [18:31]
assbot Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [18:32]
xmj moriarty: it's funny. i've seen the progression AnCap -> NRx happen a few times [18:32]
xmj and, some of the ideas particularly appeal. like, not having the social welfare state fund the procreation of stupid people, because... they're stupid. [18:33]
moriarty mircea_popescu, anyone gullible enough to believe the authenticity or originality of Ayn Rand deserves to live in Galt Gulch :P [18:33]
mircea_popescu moriarty you're wioth the "it's the protocols of sion v2.0" point of view ? [18:33]
moriarty Ayn Rand is the philosophical equivalent (you would know this better than me), of Nassim Taleb of the statistical world [18:33]
mircea_popescu i happen to be a taleb fan actually [18:34]
moriarty a popularist of sorts, amalgamating opinions of the past and attempting to take credit for it [18:34]
xmj nah [18:34]
moriarty there's nothing new in both their works, for the inclined [18:34]
xmj ayn rand did have a few cool things [18:34]
mircea_popescu yeah well, i don't particularly favour new stuff. what exactly is ever new. [18:34]
moriarty xmj, how much better are the neoreactionaries aiming for? :P [18:34]
xmj to infinity [18:35]
xmj and beyond! [18:35]
moriarty xmj, i am fully for stupid people not procreating, but i suppose that threatens the sanctity of humanity above the animal kingdom, we seem still unable to fully accept the depedestalisation of homo sapiens [18:36]
xmj well yeah, people put all sorts of things on pedestals [18:37]
xmj gods, women, mammon.. [18:37]
moriarty mircea_popescu, well, i guess it was easier being a popular philosopher or statistician in the past, when one did not have to read countless landmark academic papers in order to keep up with the conversation, as one has to these days [18:37]
mircea_popescu i don't think the conversation is worth keeping up with. [18:37]
moriarty mircea_popescu, so i suppose we ought to thank the popularists for at least reminiscing some of the past arguments for the popular public to enjoy a flavour of, and perhaps bring some publicity to what would otherwise be dusty fields relegated to the backshelves of some university library [18:37]
bounce .oO( nimrod faltered ) [18:38]
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moriarty mircea_popescu, i guess i can see why from a philosophical sense, if one has inclinations towards the literal and the objective [18:39]
bounce well, regurgitating old ideas like they're your own smacks of intelectual dishonesty. do it without that and shed some detractors. [18:39]
mircea_popescu moriarty looky, if the conversation were worth following, then 30 years of the finance industry following it would show some benefit for it. [18:39]
mircea_popescu meanwhile we got... gauss copulae. [18:39]
mircea_popescu i can be well spared the "conversation" of pointless academics trying to publish or perish. not worth following. [18:39]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i've read works by Lacan and such, and i feel almost as if i have to delve into some metaphysical reality, and not take them at their analogies seriously, especially when they try to use precise notions from mathematics to attempt to build some sort of bridge to their reality [18:39]
moriarty but i'm an armchair philosopher so what do i know :) [18:39]
xmj bingo so am i [18:40]
mircea_popescu and the argument that taleb is "popularizing" brought by butthurt but otherwise worthless "statisticians" in their own estimation neatly mirrors the same criticism brought by "economists" in their own estimation re buffett. [18:40]
xmj moriarty: who stated taleb's black swan before him? [18:40]
moriarty plus i've been unduely influenced by the work of Sokal, Bricmont, i.e. Fashionable Nonsense [18:40]
mircea_popescu in point of fact, there exists no intellectualy respectable economist outside of buffett that lived in the 2nd part of the 20th century. [18:40]
xmj or, well, who gave it a name? likewise for antifragility [18:40]
mircea_popescu i suspect this is true to a lesser degree in statistics. [18:40]
mircea_popescu lacan is a total idiot, if he were a woman he'd be irigaray. [18:41]
mircea_popescu complexity is not a good predictor of quality. not in the ontos, not in the gnosis. [18:41]
moriarty mircea_popescu, actually, the conversations in finance are not as cohesive unfortunately as in other fields, so the flipside of that is today the popular strand of conversation happens to be a fork that the more seriously inclined would not fully agree with or find it a bit juvenile [18:41]
mircea_popescu fair enough. [18:42]
moriarty mircea_popescu, finance or economics, is closely linked to the political nuances of a country, so whenever one reads journals by personalities like Paul Krugman, nobelist though he may be, i always read it keeping in mind his political proclivities [18:42]
moriarty because of his governmental appointments etc [18:42]
mircea_popescu i can't read him, it's like going to a museum of children "artwork" [18:42]
mircea_popescu fucking boringly stupid. [18:43]
moriarty mircea_popescu, an example of a less biased conversation would be one by Mandelbrot [18:43]
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moriarty mircea_popescu, [18:43]
assbot The Misbehavior of Markets: A Fractal View of Financial Turbulence: Benoit Mandelbrot, Richard L. Hudson: 9780465043576: Books [18:43]
moriarty that is an excellent piece of work [18:43]
xmj Mandelbrot is brilliant, yes [18:43]
xmj also his book Fractals and Scaling in Finance [18:43]
mircea_popescu certainly, mandelbrot is not bad. [18:43]
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* assbot removes voice from moriarty [18:43]
bounce how about paul ormerod? [18:44]
* assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski [18:44]
mircea_popescu !up sardan_ [18:45]
-assbot- You voiced sardan_ for 30 minutes. [18:45]
* assbot gives voice to sardan_ [18:45]
sardan_ thx :) [18:45]
mircea_popescu you're welcome. who're you ? [18:46]
sardan_ giotto :) [18:46]
mircea_popescu lolk [18:47]
sardan_ I sent you an email by the way, not sure if you received it (regarding a domain) [18:48]
bounce mpoe ated it [18:49]
sardan_ :( [18:49]
sardan_ anyone would be interested in purchasing/doing something with the domain [18:51]
pete_dushenski asciilifeform: currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg << more complicated. reichsmark outlived reich by a few years (until occupying armies got their shit together) << didn't roman coinage remain in some limited use into the middle ages because of lack of alternative? [18:51]
bounce ask in -otc [18:51]
mircea_popescu sardan_ what domain ? [18:51]
sardan_ [18:51]
mircea_popescu ah. the consensus here is that domains are worth about 10 bux, [18:51]
mircea_popescu and recently i have been giving them away for free, so. [18:51]
sardan_ ok :) [18:52]
mircea_popescu pete_dushenski not the same pressures. i meant usg specifically. [18:52]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: so the usians have alternatives? or... [18:53]
mircea_popescu nah, the reichmark wasn't nearly as integrated. [18:53]
mircea_popescu integration <-> stability. [18:53]
pete_dushenski a ok. [18:54]
pete_dushenski so then us scrip should have some life left in it [18:54]
xmj moriarty: do you consider yourself an ancap? [18:54]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu to the extent that it's highly integrated and there are few obvious alternatives [18:54]
mircea_popescu scrip will definitely outlive the usd. [18:55]
pete_dushenski not that the row will much care what happens in somalia [18:55]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: sorta the way roman coinage did, eh? [18:56]
mircea_popescu that was very unintegrated. [18:56]
mircea_popescu cause metallic, see ? [18:56]
mircea_popescu integration, for the record, is simply a measure of mutual dependence. think in terms of a couple. the more things they do together, te more integrated they are. [18:57]
mircea_popescu a metal coin is literally like a whore. 0 integration, she fucks random other men. [18:57]
pete_dushenski mm ok [18:58]
pete_dushenski whereas usd is now basically a digital token [18:58]
mircea_popescu pretty much entirely integrated. no policy in the us can be implemented without control of the currency. [18:59]
mircea_popescu hence the earlier discussion with decimation about how much the nist asked him to pay, and how it's basically "come with a note from stalin" [18:59]
pete_dushenski lol and cad is even worse, i think 4% paper vs. 11% for usd [19:00]
mircea_popescu paper is a minor nook anyway, in the grand scheme of things. [19:00]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla here ? [19:01]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: well what other nooks are there? [19:01]
pete_dushenski other than btc [19:01]
mircea_popescu for instance it being metallic is a huge gulf. arguably pegging it to btc even huger. [19:01]
mircea_popescu disallowing sharing of financial information is a sizeable nook [19:02]
mircea_popescu (basically, making kyc illegal) [19:02]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 5.47394288 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 476 satoshi per share [19:02]
kakobrekla si senor [19:02]
mircea_popescu basically, a government trending to totalitarism will correctly perceive as threats all protections from integration [19:02]
mircea_popescu this flows from the definition [19:02]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla this email, wtf is it ? i do not comprehend, what ? [19:02]
kakobrekla nfi i think he emailed to too now [19:03]
pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: right. total must be… total [19:03]
kakobrekla !up moriarty [19:04]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [19:04]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.27202039 BTC to 15`091 shares, 8429 satoshi per share [19:05]
mircea_popescu whatevers. i replied and that's that. [19:06]
moriarty bounce, what would you recommend from paul ormerod? [19:06]
moriarty xmj, well black swan for starters has its roots in the classical Humean dilemma :) (i've referenced him because i know mircea_popescu would like it) [19:06]
moriarty sardan_, how much are you selling for? [19:06]
mircea_popescu ;;gettrust assbot moriarty [19:06]
gribble WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user moriarty: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: never [19:06]
mircea_popescu ;;rate moriarty 1 some sort of libertarian or something. [19:06]
gribble Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings. [19:06]
kakobrekla >Kako, please forward idiots to #bitcoin-assets instead of my inbox. < fyi did not such thing. [19:06]
mircea_popescu moriarty how about you get in thre wot [19:06]
kakobrekla no* [19:06]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla i know, but it was for his benefit. give the man a chance to redeem himself. [19:07]
sardan_ moriarty, Make me an offer :-) [19:07]
moriarty xmj, no, i don't tend to look at myself dichotomously, i'm an assembly of aspects from both sides of the political and socioeconomical spectrum, left and right as they conveniently classify it [19:07]
kakobrekla ah k. [19:07]
moriarty xmj, but there is an appeal to anarchist capitalism, once you look past the easy conclusion that capitalism requires some sort of legal framework in which to operate in, so not fully anarchist, but then looking past that, they do have interesting opinions [19:08]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i've fully liquidated my bitcoin position, so i guess no motivation for me to join WoT now [19:08]
moriarty ;;gettrust assbot mircea_popescu [19:08]
gribble Currently authenticated from hostmask mircea_popescu!~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu. Trust relationship from user assbot to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 26 via 26 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Fri Jul 22 11:04:26 2011 [19:08]
pete_dushenski moriarty: you crazy [19:09]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i've done a sybil on localbitcoins though :) just so i don't get pinned down as the guy with shitloads of bitcoin [19:09]
mircea_popescu moriarty it allows you to get voice here. [19:09]
moriarty sardan_, an offer, $10 :-) [19:11]
xmj moriarty: here's the problem [19:12]
sardan_ moriarty, To low :-) [19:12]
xmj moriarty: there will /always/ be demand for state and redistribution, because the lower 51% will want to loot the upper 49% [19:12]
sardan_ I mean too low [19:13]
xmj it's logical -- as long as they can get away with it they'll do it, and use mob force. [19:13]
moriarty mircea_popescu, that would not be very meaningful these days considering how some no longer buy/sell bitcoin unfortunately [19:13]
mircea_popescu so what, stick to the fleshlight and egg custard crowd over on austrians ? i guess can do that, sure. [19:14]
xmj moriarty: and as much as the ancapists a la kinsella and molyneux would like to believe, they cannot overcome this with non-monopolist private security agencies [19:14]
moriarty xmj, sure, but demands of any kind play a subservient role to the sanctity of the constitution, and if ancaps were to form a nation, they could very well enshrine those principles in there [19:14]
moriarty xmj, the way i see it, you like a country's constitution, join it, no? then emigrate :) [19:14]
mircea_popescu enshrine my foot. [19:14]
xmj moriarty: ancap constitution... what? [19:14]
xmj moriarty: yes, that is how it works (exit vs voice), but most people are already in the land you'd like ancapistan to be [19:15]
* assbot removes voice from sardan_ [19:15]
moriarty xmj, i don't take it too literally, anything taken in its pure definition does not exist in reality, there are no socialist or capitalist society today [19:15]
moriarty it's always a blend [19:15]
xmj i take /that one/ binary [19:16]
moriarty xmj, a balance between welfare state and free markets, and how much of a blend depends partly on the origins of the country, a la its constitution, and the culture trickled top down from previous political establishments a la informal variant of the constitution [19:16]
xmj either anarcho-capitalism or socialism. social welfare states have come to be sooooo sooo sooo socialist that heck, Lenin would be proud. [19:17]
moriarty so china may be "capitalist" but its roots and the one-party system would ensure that their brand of capitalism would almost likely never converge to american capitalism [19:17]
moriarty it's hard to be free market, when the party dictates who lives and who doesn't :P [19:17]
bounce just to be clear, what do you understand to be the defining properties of a welfare state? [19:18]
mircea_popescu so i go to #electronics to see if either asciilifeform or diametric hang in there. they have a bot, i do !help, it says [19:18]
mircea_popescu Usage: !wire , gives stats for copper wire of size [19:18]
mircea_popescu i nearly fainted. [19:18]
moriarty bounce, any form of redistribution from the haves to the have-nots is welfare, from medical insurance to unemployment benefits [19:19]
chetty well these days its more like from the have nots to the haves [19:19]
moriarty mircea_popescu, like it or not, a country has got to stand up for the reason it was founded, otherwise, there is little point to be loyal or even nationalistic about it, when it can be hijacked philosophically [19:20]
mircea_popescu moriarty no country will stand up for a deal. [19:20]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i see countries as clubs, that if you do not like the constitution or culture, then you are welcome to join something more to your inclination [19:20]
bounce so, a government that takes in taxes but does not give handouts isn't a welfare state? [19:20]
mircea_popescu moriarty this is a nice theory anyone would subscribe to. both those who will and those who won't. after which, disaster of commons. [19:21]
moriarty mircea_popescu, of course this ideal is currently impeded by what i consider to be a gross infraction on one of the basic human rights, that is the freedom of movement across borders, one trivialised by border control and such [19:21]
mircea_popescu the only winning move being not to waste your own resources to defend their shit. [19:21]
mircea_popescu not currently. permanently. not by anything but simple game theory. [19:21]
moriarty bounce, well, in the most direct form, but you can always indirectly do welfare, free education for instance, is one such example [19:22]
moriarty bounce, food subsidies is another example [19:22]
moriarty bounce, fuel subsidies [19:22]
mircea_popescu o.O [19:22]
moriarty then of course we can get a little more creative and consider public transportation too, to be a form of welfare [19:22]
mircea_popescu now that's insane. why subsidize energy expenditure ?! [19:22]
moriarty public transportation is never a profitmaking venture [19:22]
moriarty mircea_popescu, to help the poverty stricken [19:23]
mircea_popescu fuck them ? [19:23]
moriarty mircea_popescu, inefficient, i know, but hey some countries do it [19:23]
mircea_popescu they can sit on a chair. [19:23]
mircea_popescu nol but the free education thing i can see. if you're going to teach everyone the same thing (language) might as well do it for free. your show, your tickets. [19:23]
mircea_popescu but energy ?! no. just... no way. [19:23]
moriarty well, free education if mandated, sure, but it exists along a free market system that elitises education in a freemium sense :) [19:24]
moriarty a la free online education via the MIT initiative, OCW, noble though it is, vis-a-vis the good ol' paid education you get face-to-face [19:24]
mircea_popescu actually free mandatory quoted education is imo the way to do education. 100% 4 years, if any kid fails it shoot him. 99.x% 8 years, if any kid fails he is not allowed to ever have sex with another. no matter what. [19:25]
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mircea_popescu then 50% 12 years and 5 to 10% 16 years. and that's it. [19:25]
bounce you know what's going to happen: everyone passes. [19:25]
mircea_popescu you can not run for office unless in one of these two categories. [19:25]
mircea_popescu maybe. but if the kids can't read, shoot the teachers. [19:26]
moriarty bounce has a point even though mircea_popescu's intentions are noble [19:26]
moriarty it happened in the UK unfortunately [19:26]
moriarty we had a lofty target of 50% tertiary literacy rates [19:26]
mircea_popescu not target. maximum. [19:26]
moriarty and then a recent mass study conducted indicated social mobility did not happen despite more people than ever having university degrees [19:26]
mircea_popescu quota as in, no more than this may pass no matter what happens. [19:26]
moriarty i see [19:27]
moriarty that sounds like singapore then, a social experiment in of itself [19:27]
bounce the degrees dropped in difficulty AND value? [19:27]
moriarty bounce, well, not across the board [19:27]
mircea_popescu yeah well this socialistoid idiocy... "currently college ed people are upwards movbile let's give degrees to anyone wait that changes mobiliy ?!?!!?" is like, become a woman, they liove longer. [19:27]
moriarty bounce, but you had universities catering across the spectrum of students [19:27]
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moriarty bounce, alongside funding opportunities [19:27]
mircea_popescu the observed property is based on not having been tampered with [19:27]
moriarty bounce, it is cheaper to go to some universities than others, geographically as well as prestige-wise [19:28]
decimation Vexual: The clock is going to drive various rf devices & data capture systems [19:28]
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moriarty mircea_popescu, haha good point [19:28]
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bounce bit of a fail that policy makers tend to forget that little detail [19:29]
moriarty mircea_popescu, singapore took your opinion to a slightly more extreme point, their university application form consists of a ranking of six majors, and the state then allocates a major to you based on a threshold that is demand-adjusted [19:29]
moriarty mircea_popescu, so if photography has low demand but high applicant rates, then most of them get rejected [19:29]
mircea_popescu sensible. [19:30]
moriarty yep, but leaves little room for individualism [19:30]
mircea_popescu kinda how romania/eastern europe worked too. [19:30]
mircea_popescu then 20 years later, romania dominates the internet. [19:30]
moriarty imagine, if you wrote down six majors you thought you wanted to do in order of preference, only to be given your last choice [19:30]
mircea_popescu in spte of being what, 0.3% of word pop [19:30]
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moriarty that would be painful, or not since i'm looking at it from a western point of view :) [19:30]
moriarty i imagine singaporeans must be accustomed to not getting their way at anything [19:30]
moriarty and the government decides their whole lives for them [19:30]
moriarty in the UK, the same thing happens, but it is done more surreptiously so the pain is less obvious [19:32]
moriarty you are given six choices of universities for ideally the same major (you could even mix and match majors but let's take the simpler assumption) [19:32]
moriarty so the threshold is adjusted based on your choice, your funeral [19:33]
mircea_popescu moriarty it's not "the governemnt" any more than it's gravity. [19:33]
mircea_popescu you wanna jump higher ? train, bitch. [19:33]
moriarty if you take a highly subscribed course but you are not cream of the crop, then you are assigned a less serious university, and you may harbour fantasies of serendipity working in your favour come working world time, but that wouldn't logically happen [19:33]
bounce bureaucrazies are heavy but not gravity themselves [19:33]
moriarty mircea_popescu, lol [19:33]
mircea_popescu what, lol ? [19:34]
* assbot removes voice from moriarty [19:34]
mircea_popescu in the 80s romania there used to be about 100 18yo girls a year hanging themselves for having sucked at tests. [19:34]
mircea_popescu seems a perfect way to run a country. [19:34]
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asciilifeform japan - valhalla ? [19:35]
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asciilifeform !up moriarty [19:35]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [19:35]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i guess in a way you could say singapore is being "kinder" by telling you upfront that if you take that course, your employment chances will be fucked, so let's help make this idiot-proof as possible by barring you from choosing that road [19:35]
mircea_popescu oyu're not barred. you simply don't qualify. [19:36]
mircea_popescu suck it and change. [19:36]
mircea_popescu any system that forces change upon the individual is going to win longterm [19:36]
mircea_popescu because that's the cheapest thing to change. [19:36]
* Guest47540 is now known as TheNewDeal [19:36]
asciilifeform actually - cheapest thing to change, assuming 'chose parents well' - is system. [19:37]
mircea_popescu nope. [19:37]
asciilifeform hence late-soviet era gold medals given to favourite sons. [19:37]
mircea_popescu systems can not exist but in a very narrow space of stable nodes. [19:37]
moriarty in singapore, there is no room for change though, there is no automatic pass up the high school ladder, if you fail or do poorly, you get streamlined to the lower education tier [19:37]
mircea_popescu whereas the space for individuals is immensely more dense. [19:37]
mircea_popescu so, the ilusion of having "changed" the system may be cheaply attained [19:37]
mircea_popescu but all you've done is upset a pendulum [19:37]
moriarty their entire education system is tiered, with forks occuring after junior school, after high school, and after pre-university [19:37]
mircea_popescu moriarty you ever read the gpg contracts article ? [19:37]
moriarty if you're not good enough, you get streamed to what essentially pigeonholes you to the blue-collar stream [19:38]
moriarty mircea_popescu, remind me? [19:38]
mircea_popescu moriarty <. the tl;dr being, don't change after you fucked up. change before. [19:39]
assbot GPG contracts pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [19:39]
mircea_popescu nature doesn't come with a "you took that path and a lion ate you, would you like to retry yes/no/cancel" [19:39]
moriarty mircea_popescu, that's a good point, i like singapore's system too [19:40]
bounce we do a lot better than nature by allowing learning from mistakes and therefore retries [19:40]
moriarty although if one wants to be sappy about it, life does throw curveballs at some individuals more than others [19:40]
moriarty and the singaporean social experiment assumes implicitly that curveballs are totally within the individual's control [19:40]
mircea_popescu bounce hard retries offer no promise of learning from mistakes. [19:40]
mircea_popescu they instead allow mistakes to be carried forth [19:40]
* assbot gives voice to TheNewDeal [19:41]
TheNewDeal ;;seen TomServo [19:41]
gribble TomServo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: Shouldn't this supposed ETH dump be coming from: ? [19:41]
mircea_popescu which is why hard amiga games in the 80s were a lot better than the crap today, [19:41]
moriarty in essence, there are negative externalities based on the draw of the hand, where some individuals never get tested on their fortitude in dealing with familial crises, and others do [19:41]
mircea_popescu and which is why a fundamentally idiotic game model (the platformer, the scroller, etc) were still loads of fun [19:41]
moriarty so the singaporean model discounts earlier on, individuals that come from more fractious backgrounds, by tiering them very early on [19:41]
moriarty without any ladder back up [19:41]
mircea_popescu moriarty no. it encourages backgrounds to not be fracturous [19:41]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i can't have been the only boy who wanted a game machine that would physically damage you when you fuck up... [19:42]
mircea_popescu under punishment of marginalkising their fruits. [19:42]
mircea_popescu which is why all east european families were VERY stable [19:42]
moriarty mircea_popescu, principal-agency dilemma [19:42]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform well i was more reflexive in my wishes. [19:42]
mircea_popescu moriarty not a dilemma in any sense. [19:42]
moriarty mircea_popescu, in short, the motivations of the parents are not entirely aligned with the children [19:42]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform "i wish they kiled idiots so then they'd be real cheap and i could get them all" [19:42]
TheNewDeal ;;later tell TomServo has arrived. I can meet today (9/20) or tomorrow (9/21). Otherwise it's going to be a couple weeks [19:42]
gribble The operation succeeded. [19:42]
mircea_popescu moriarty why is this a problem ? [19:42]
moriarty mircea_popescu, it does not affect the parent as negatively as the offspring, particularly if the parent is not emotionally vulnerable to its offspring :) [19:43]
mircea_popescu it does, yes. [19:43]
moriarty mircea_popescu, but you're right, it makes for an interesting society experiment [19:43]
TheNewDeal ;;ticker [19:43]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 427.0, Best ask: 427.29, Bid-ask spread: 0.29000, Last trade: 427.29, 24 hour volume: 21262.91819002, 24 hour low: 390.0, 24 hour high: 431.11, 24 hour vwap: 408.789480514 [19:43]
mircea_popescu it's just that the parent may not whine as audibly as the child. but you can't rule by whining [19:43]
moriarty mircea_popescu, cost of living is high in singapore, so those without the proper education tend to resort to less conducive means to make a living [19:43]
moriarty mircea_popescu, think social escorts, etc [19:44]
mircea_popescu perfect. [19:44]
moriarty haha :P [19:44]
mircea_popescu the problem with us noobs is that instead of sucking cock and being humble, they reddit. [19:44]
mircea_popescu what if that entire population were put in its place ? [19:44]
mircea_popescu suddenly the us dollar could compete with the singapore dollar. [19:44]
asciilifeform biodiesel ? [19:44]
moriarty there is truth to that [19:44]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform "social escorts" is a much better euphemism,. [19:44]
mircea_popescu aka "beg someone much better than you to tolerate your presence" [19:45]
moriarty lol [19:45]
moriarty anyway, i think education is one of the nice ways the elites of society has deceived the havenots :) i think xmj earlier pointed out about how the 51% would overthrow the 49% [19:45]
mircea_popescu no, they wouldn't. [19:46]
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moriarty but see, if you're elite, then you would have more conniving methods of undermining the other side of society [19:46]
mircea_popescu this is so much derpage reflecting the extremely narrow case of where a bunch of people worked with their muscles. [19:46]
mircea_popescu the intellect-muscle debate has nothing to do with the loser-winner debate [19:46]
moriarty because education alone is not the key to gainful employment, it helps if you have strong connections and networking [19:46]
mircea_popescu even if british society in the 1800s miscalculate dthe value of muscle. [19:46]
xmj hmh [19:47]
mircea_popescu but in point of fact, the 51% of which idiots like xmj are part would NEVER overcome the 49% which includes me. [19:47]
xmj moriarty: education is mostly a signal [19:47]
moriarty not that i'm griping about connections and such :P the way i see it, we inherit genes as we do connections [19:47]
mircea_popescu for the simple reason that he's an idiot. what's he going to do ? whine ? [19:47]
bounce oh hey, ancient roman patronage practices. would fit the us' crumbling empire elan [19:47]
mircea_popescu "ignore" me ? [19:47]
xmj signal of intelligence, as education is more costly for the less-intelligent [19:47]
mircea_popescu bounce quite. [19:47]
moriarty xmj, a signal that is second in importance to the signalling of connections [19:47]
xmj so for them it's an incentive to opt out earlier [19:47]
moriarty xmj, someone personally vouching for you is a far more powerful statement than an educational factory produced paper [19:47]
bounce too bad the us is really too prude for that, though [19:47]
xmj moriarty: certainly [19:48]
xmj moriarty: but do not underestimate the paper [19:48]
moriarty xmj, and that kind of connection comes inherited, not unlike genetic material [19:48]
xmj it's an ingenious way to signal ability [19:48]
mircea_popescu bounce or is it ? [19:48]
bounce japan still has those personal vouching things going on in contracts [19:48]
xmj moriarty: social class is inherited [19:48]
moriarty mircea_popescu, hehe [19:48]
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mircea_popescu seems to me the black guys are already doing it, and that may explain their preeminence over the prude whites. [19:48]
bounce it's still violence over nipples there [19:48]
xmj moriarty: one of the reason that is, is because intelligence is heritable and people cluster around their intelligence [19:49]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i can see your proclivities towards the ancap notions [19:49]
xmj I <3 nipples. [19:49]
mircea_popescu they're not proclivities, i wrote the damned book :D [19:49]
mircea_popescu they just copied me badly. [19:49]
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decimation much time and attention in the us is devoted to making sure every last miscreant gets at least 50 chances to do good [19:50]
moriarty xmj, i agree, intelligence, beauty, the things that ultimately lead us to do what we want to do through meaningful employment, have lots of meaningless sex with as many beautiful people as possible [19:51]
moriarty mircea_popescu, haha [19:51]
xmj heh [19:51]
mircea_popescu decimation too much. [19:51]
xmj moriarty: really, sex drive is at the core of male achievement. [19:51]
bounce throw in all the people put in pre-trial jail and the numbers drop quite a lot [19:52]
moriarty mircea_popescu, well that's why all politicians are liars, in order to be a man of the people, you have to ascribe to philosophies you don't truly believe in to win them over, just so you can fuck them over later on, to protect your class, your clan and family [19:52]
xmj the church did a good job at reinforcing the already existing institution of marriage [19:52]
danielpbarron most of the ancaps I encounter seem to lean more towards the socialist side than they'd like to admit -- what with all their "fairness for all" mantra, as if unrestrained capitalism won't deal a crushing blow to the dregs of society [19:52]
mircea_popescu anyone got an opinion on ? [19:52]
moriarty xmj, females too [19:52]
bounce the problem there is essentially "random" justice. that's fairly bad for encouraging people to pick up better habits. [19:52]
xmj moriarty: marriage is a way of ensuring betas get laid, it's one of the more controversial claims [19:52]
xmj yes them too, sure. [19:52]
xmj moriarty: this is why societies embracing absolute nuclear families do better than societies that have extended families / clans -- inter-generational wealth transfers. [19:53]
mircea_popescu moriarty i have my doubts about that model, but anyway. [19:53]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron generally people don't know what the things they claim to want imply. [19:53]
mircea_popescu because... thinking. is hard. [19:54]
decimation mircea_popescu: re: lesswrong they push that 'hard-ai' bullshit pretty hard [19:54]
moriarty xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime [19:55]
decimation also here's an amusing thread: [19:55]
assbot Lesswrong is a weird place. I can read an awesome, insightful article one moment... | Hacker News [19:55]
moriarty xmj, not a popular opinion either, but hey :) [19:55]
moriarty mircea_popescu, what model is this? [19:55]
decimation on the pain of offending the almighty future-ai-god, I claim that he won't exist [19:56]
mircea_popescu moriarty this. [19:56]
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moriarty mircea_popescu, lesswrong is filled with people who have fallen between the cracks of society [19:56]
xmj moriarty: yeah that part is pretty brilliant [19:56]
mircea_popescu moriarty ahahha unlike what, bitcoin ? [19:56]
xmj moriarty: you know, bread 'n games [19:56]
xmj keep'm occupied. [19:56]
moriarty mircea_popescu, they have potential, but are limited by the ability to realise those potential, because of their minority status and not many people defending them really [19:56]
mircea_popescu well maybe they come to daddy. [19:57]
mircea_popescu xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime << so now you also gotta read [19:58]
assbot How I was wrong : Cuckolding, or a story about sigmas pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [19:58]
mircea_popescu this will never end!!1 [19:58]
moriarty xmj, yeah, - sums up eloquently the human condition [19:58]
assbot The brothel creeper | From the Observer | The Observer [19:58]
xmj guardian from 2004? [19:58]
xmj that must be good that you still remember/care [19:58]
mircea_popescu and in other news, [19:58]
moriarty xmj, i didn't read it back in 2004, i found it recently when i was hyperlinking around :) [19:58]
xmj ok [19:59]
moriarty mircea_popescu, what is your take on marriage? [20:00]
mircea_popescu understood as what ? [20:00]
xmj moriarty: screwing >1000 hookers is pretty sad [20:01]
xmj screwing >1000 normal people without paying cash for it would be a considerable achievement [20:01]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i like your take [20:01]
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mircea_popescu which one lol [20:02]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i've been told by a woman that women exist on a plane different to men [20:02]
mircea_popescu yaya [20:02]
xmj "The great thing about sex with whores is the excitement and variety." yeah, well, you could just travel and seduce... [20:02]
moriarty mircea_popescu, and in not so many words, it's easy to put yourselves in the shoes of a woman, if you imagine them to be first a man, take away reason, and accountability [20:03]
mircea_popescu that;s ludicrous. [20:03]
moriarty i know, but that's what they are :) [20:03]
xmj What I hate are meaningless and heartless one-night stands where you tell all sorts of lies to get into bed with a woman you don't care for. [20:03]
moriarty it's best not to try to understand them [20:04]
xmj I totally agree with this sentence. [20:04]
xmj moriarty: what, women or whores? :) [20:04]
moriarty i've long given up on that pursuit, so whenever a woman argues, i just empathise with her and agree with her [20:04]
moriarty lol xmj [20:04]
xmj i've become better at screening [20:04]
xmj but, y'know, law of attraction is a bitch. [20:05]
mircea_popescu dude get out, i understand women just fine. [20:05]
moriarty xmj, men are shallow by nature, our emotions do not run as deeply as women (unless we grew up on a heavy dose of sappy films) [20:05]
mircea_popescu it's not particularly hard, either, just as long as you comprehend that the "differnet plane" bs is bs, and that there's more variety between different women than between women and men. [20:05]
* assbot removes voice from moriarty [20:06]
xmj "The problem is that the modern woman is a prostitute who doesn't deliver the goods. Teasers are never pleasers; they greedily accept presents to seal a contract and then break it." [20:07]
xmj well, if you're not man (or high value) enough to MAKE her deliver [20:07]
decimation !up moriarty [20:09]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [20:09]
moriarty xmj, that's quintessentially the female response to the common masculine argument of cockteasers; rephrasing it, it's not that i'm not putting out enough, you're just not good enough [20:09]
mircea_popescu moriarty seeing the value in a wot acct yet ? :D [20:10]
xmj that might be the female response [20:10]
moriarty mircea_popescu, lol i would need to trade bitcoin in order to get a wot acct, right? [20:10]
xmj that IS something i've empirically been able to validate [20:10]
xmj :) [20:10]
mircea_popescu no. [20:10]
decimation moriarty: no you just need to make a gpg key [20:10]
moriarty xmj, what i mean is this - females are very articulate in dealmaking, and there is almost no deal in which they conduct themselves, socially or otherwise, that would leave them worse off than before [20:11]
mircea_popescu moriarty how about slavegirls ? [20:11]
moriarty mircea_popescu, lol [20:11]
mircea_popescu what lol ? [20:11]
moriarty mircea_popescu, in the confines of a conventional western society today [20:11]
moriarty :P [20:11]
mircea_popescu yes. [20:11]
decimation slavery is all around you moriarty [20:12]
xmj there can be [20:12]
xmj never underestimate the willingness of women to stay in bad/unhealthy relationships [20:12]
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moriarty xmj, because, pure and simple, they are not logical creatures [20:12]
moriarty they are bags of emotions [20:12]
decimation what is a council-house full of couch-sitters other than slaves of the state? with the state being a worthless master? [20:12]
moriarty they thrive on what thrills them [20:12]
xmj moriarty: you're not, either [20:12]
mircea_popescu moriarty << take them there. better off than before ? [20:12]
assbot NSFW - Mosu’ cu joarda pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [20:12]
moriarty xmj, drama is one way to get into a woman's pants [20:12]
xmj moriarty: you run on testosterone and adrenaline and dopamin and whatever. [20:12]
moriarty xmj, there is truth to that, but my motivation is more societal status too :) [20:13]
moriarty xmj, it elevates my status if i have arm candy [20:13]
xmj for yourself? [20:13]
xmj ofc [20:13]
decimation asciilifeform: some guy bought a 'salvaged Tesla' and did a teardown of the battery pack: [20:14]
assbot Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack [20:14]
mircea_popescu it's incredible how broken other irc channels seem to me. "where's the logs ?" "we don't have logs because reasons and we're primitive idiots" "so i guess i don't even need to ask about gribble or wot then huh." [20:14]
mircea_popescu so i sit there and it's like... eating grass. [20:14]
mircea_popescu savages. [20:14]
moriarty decimation, well, unfortunately as someone who is partial to the ancap way of looking at things, i don't identify with the reframing of couch-sitters as slaves of the state, i see them as enslaving the state though [20:15]
bounce you don't like grass? so you're not a cow then. [20:15]
decimation lol, does anyone ask them before they decide something? [20:15]
mircea_popescu bounce i guess not. [20:16]
mircea_popescu decimation of course ? [20:16]
mircea_popescu try rezoning a couch potato farm ? [20:16]
mircea_popescu try changing benefits ? try doing anything. [20:16]
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moriarty mircea_popescu, you give a little to get a whole lot more :) [20:16]
mircea_popescu the whole theory is broken. there's no "other plane", and there's no "women" as a one thing. [20:17]
moriarty mircea_popescu, all i'm saying is, once you understand women to be a bag of emotions, rather than logical creatures, their motivations, what it takes to motivate them, becomes plain as day [20:18]
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xmj couch-sitters? slaves to the states? [20:18]
moriarty mircea_popescu, buying them items in hopes to get in their pants would not be very successful, as xmj attested [20:18]
xmj nah man, that's not how it works, and it s not the reverse either [20:18]
mircea_popescu no. what becomes plain as day is how to interact with the few women nobody can be bothered with, and how to miss out on the value in the set. [20:18]
moriarty mircea_popescu, you have to appeal to their emotional side :) and the flip side of that is, you don't even have to spend a dime [20:18]
xmj those who want to sit in front of a TV all day long instead of doing something might just be better off that way. [20:19]
mircea_popescu this dovetails neatly with your expectation that you have to spend bitdimes to be in the wot. [20:19]
mircea_popescu that's not how wots work. [20:19]
moriarty mircea_popescu, the value in the set may be so economically, but socially? you attain more value by going for the unattainable [20:19]
mircea_popescu there is no "socially" [20:19]
moriarty mircea_popescu, it's the quintessential Veblen goods [20:19]
moriarty :) [20:19]
mircea_popescu mno. [20:19]
moriarty decimation, council houses are a response to voters clamouring for welfare [20:21]
mircea_popescu decimation nice pics [20:21]
decimation moriarty: and the state is more than happy to deliver, in exchange for not rioting [20:21]
moriarty it's one of the pernicious problems of mob rule, it converges to a state that pleases the majority, even if the minority in this case happens to be the ones that make more than half of the GDP and contribute tax-wise as well [20:21]
decimation which makes the state a terrible master [20:21]
decimation it doesn't take much creativity to imagine ways in which you could employ people such that they are neither a burden to civilized society nor have enough energy to riot [20:22]
moriarty decimation, but you've taken a ironic stance there, you can't be enslaved to the state and at the same time hold the state hostage with riot threats [20:22]
moriarty decimation, if you're happy with the status quo enough to not riot, then that's not enslavement of any sort except that of your own volition [20:23]
moriarty ;) [20:23]
mircea_popescu decimation it does. how ? [20:23]
mircea_popescu moriarty contradictory is not ironic! [20:24]
xmj decimation: hahahaha [20:24]
moriarty decimation, minimum wage or mandatory employment has the same effect [20:24]
xmj decimation: briiiilliant. [20:24]
xmj decimation: you know what you could do as well? [20:24]
decimation it's not a contradiction [20:24]
xmj you could feed them fast food, and keep them happy with cheap ish beer. [20:24]
xmj not too cheap, they shouldn't be allowed to save too much. [20:24]
moriarty decimation, it is an endless regression to inflation, sticky wages eventually adjusting themselves, and formerly poor people made wealthy through minimum income now poor again rendering minimum income ineffetual [20:24]
decimation a slave (unless chained to the wall) will always have some power to rebel [20:24]
moriarty decimation, long story short, it's back to square one after awhile [20:24]
xmj decimation: do you know "indentured servitude" ? [20:25]
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decimation yeah, in the us we have h-1b visas [20:25]
moriarty decimation, and so mininum wage or mandated employment will never work except that politically it's wonderful [20:25]
xmj ahahah [20:25]
xmj H1B, biggest scam ever [20:25]
moriarty decimation, by the time, that happens, it's a different political party [20:25]
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moriarty lol that's the ancap bit of me speaking perhaps [20:26]
decimation moriarty: it's true that such a scheme would be unworkable in mass democracy [20:26]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i was just being euphemistic :P [20:26]
moriarty mircea_popescu, i assume ironic humour, rather than any attempt to negate oneself ;) [20:26]
decimation and it's also true that in the modern west, the welfare class enslaves itself [20:27]
mircea_popescu decimation so how ? [20:27]
moriarty decimation, yep [20:27]
mircea_popescu how do you give idiots something to do that hides from reality the fact of their idiocy ? [20:27]
mircea_popescu this is a nonsensical object on par with the "foolproof" engineering item. [20:28]
xmj welfare class enslaves itself? [20:28]
xmj not that much [20:28]
decimation mircea_popescu: you can't, so you put it on display. your job: wash the sidewalk [20:28]
xmj there are actually a few traps setup by The Powers That Be [20:28]
mircea_popescu why would he be doing this ? [20:28]
decimation no work, no eat [20:28]
mircea_popescu does a shitty job of washing sidewalk. [20:29]
moriarty actually socioeconomic experiments are nothing more than alchemy waiting for sciences to solidify itself; in like sense, macro policies are the precursors to BCIs which would be a far more effective method of tailoring welfare to the individual without any of the leakages present today [20:29]
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decimation mircea_popescu: then don't eat, if deemed shitty in the subjective opinion of the bureaucrat of the day [20:29]
mircea_popescu so you've rebuilt singapoer, [20:30]
mircea_popescu except they do it properly. social escort. [20:30]
decimation one could do worse I think [20:30]
moriarty xmj, the traps are easily detectable were it not for their inferior intellect [20:30]
xmj hum.. [20:31]
xmj no, i mean, they're incentivized to stay down [20:31]
moriarty xmj, but i guess i shouldn't sound so condescending, when i am attempting some candor [20:31]
xmj because by the time you start earning income, you lose more than 100% to the state [20:31]
moriarty xmj, but you won't bite the bait if you had some modicum of intellect [20:31]
xmj in redistribution you lose and texes you pay [20:31]
xmj moriarty: i'm completely retarded, didn't you notice. [20:31]
moriarty xmj, if you can't fend yourself against the traps of the powers that be, how do you hope to avoid buying a lemon when faced with a second-hand car dealer [20:31]
moriarty xmj, what i'm saying is, it's impossible to legislate every aspect of society to make it as idiotproof as possible [20:32]
xmj moriarty: oh i know I can. [20:32]
xmj and don't underestimate street smarts [20:32]
xmj no one trusts used-car dealers [20:32]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lesswrong << i was de-facto banished there. [20:32]
mircea_popescu how and why ? [20:32]
moriarty xmj, so if you have the street smarts to not trust used-car dealers, i hope you do the same for the government or powers that be [20:32]
moriarty :) [20:32]
xmj well [20:33]
decimation all these models. here's some real economists discussing how inappicable almost all economic models (sets of assumptions) are to reality: (it's a podcast with transcript mircea!) [20:33]
xmj hopefully [20:33]
assbot " + soundfiledesc + " [20:33]
xmj hopefully you also get cash income :3 [20:33]
decimation asciilifeform: do you have links? would read [20:33]
moriarty decimation, that's a rather simplistic view [20:33]
moriarty decimation, it's nice if you're not a very curious individual [20:33]
asciilifeform [20:34]
assbot Logged on 10-06-2014 02:07:49; asciilifeform: (lw is another reddit clone that makes hn, etc. look sane. inhabited by folks terrified of robo-apocalypse. i was drummed out of lw as a 'future genocidal criminal' for... considering resurrecting doug lenat's 'eurisko.') [20:34]
moriarty decimation, but if you are dissatisfied with such simple conclusion, read that Mandelbrot book :) [20:34]
decimation economists too can be made to wash windows [20:34]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform lol they on to you huh [20:34]
moriarty xmj, hah [20:34]
asciilifeform story time. [20:34]
asciilifeform there was (and is) a fellow by the name of eliezer yudkowsky. (american, oddly enough.) ingenious demented storyteller. [20:35]
moriarty decimation, economic models are much like scientific models, or any models for that matter, they are inapplicable to reality without an overdose of simplifying assumptions to linearise what would otherwise be a higher dimensionality reality [20:35]
asciilifeform he used to be rather into artificial intelligence - but more from the standpoint of advocacy ('we' (TM) must build working super-intelligent machine, so it can save 'us' (TM)) - but that was pre-2001 or so [20:36]
xmj asciilifeform: yeah, [20:36]
asciilifeform then he had some sort of nervous break and a bit flipped in his head [20:36]
asciilifeform and he turned into... [20:36]
asciilifeform the equivalent of an anti-nuclear activist - but pre-Fermi. [20:36]
xmj uhm...what [20:36]
xmj his CFAR and MIRI are doing quite well, no? [20:36]
moriarty typical profile is someone who has fallen between the cracks of society so typically someone without formal education, self-proclaimed didact, home-schooled, etc [20:37]
asciilifeform xmj: the other thing that happened - around the same time - was: he found a sponsor. [20:37]
asciilifeform who put him on a throne, had an 'organization' built [20:37]
xmj isn't that convenient. [20:37]
asciilifeform now mr. y is surrounded by flunkies, and, by some accounts, is fellated (literally) round the clock by harem [20:37]
xmj moriarty: you're forgetting high-iq math/physics/compsci crowd [20:37]
moriarty if i were feeling benevolent, i should actually sponsor some of them for formal education :) but then neuroscience has something to say about how intellect not developed before a certain age would have the door closed on them at some point [20:38]
xmj ahahaha [20:38]
decimation asciilifeform: who is his rich patron? [20:39]
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xmj that'd interest me too [20:39]
asciilifeform in order to understand lw, must admit that mr y had talent. i, for instance, used to enjoy his expository writing. until realized that it is 100% recycled philosophy spiced up for 'reddit' crowd. [20:39]
xmj asciilifeform: what do you mean by pre-fermi anti-nuclear activist? [20:39]
moriarty i am into artificial intelligence [20:39]
xmj i've been in #lesswrong for months [20:39]
moriarty at least formally i have worked in the field of AI and have come across lesswrong in my past [20:40]
moriarty i am sincerely impressed by the attempts they have made without formal education [20:40]
asciilifeform attempts at what ? [20:40]
moriarty i honestly believe that under different circumstances, these individuals would have made real progress in society [20:40]
moriarty attempts at understanding AI [20:40]
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asciilifeform !up moriarty [20:40]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [20:40]
xmj moriarty: formal education is just paper [20:41]
asciilifeform i'll be impressed when they build something - anything. [20:41]
xmj if you strive for knowledge you can learn /anything/ [20:41]
moriarty xmj, sure, but let's not discount formal education also as the path to avoid mistakes made by saner individuals in the past [20:41]
decimation asciilifeform: oh he's one of Thiel's boys [20:41]
moriarty xmj, the informal route is filled with potential pitfalls to make the same mistakes [20:41]
moriarty i admire and despise Thiel all at once [20:42]
xmj you know, i'm all for ungraduating. [20:42]
moriarty i think it was great that PayPal has made that clan of people rich, a lot of good things have come out from the founders of PayPal [20:42]
xmj i've always been better at learning things on my own. [20:42]
asciilifeform good things << which ? [20:42]
decimation ultimately they are all patrons of usg and its idiotic currency meddling [20:42]
moriarty but Thiel's supposition that people should not bother with formal education and instead open up a company under the auspices of his seed funding is rather self-serving in my opinion [20:42]
bounce well, you know. formal education isn't always a panacea either. might just end up in a complete dead-end of "knowledge". [20:43]
moriarty in fact Theil's proposal would fall under xmj's concept of traps by powers that be :) [20:43]
moriarty Thiel even [20:43]
bounce you know, social sciences. contemporary economics. that sort of thing. [20:43]
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moriarty xmj, that's commendable [20:43]
decimation asciilifeform: one day I hope to find a modern 'ai researcher' who admits to have tried programming in lisp [20:43]
moriarty xmj, in university you are supposed to learn on your own too [20:43]
moriarty xmj, but freenode is one of those serendipituous occurence that i think is essential to homeschooling [20:44]
moriarty xmj, without a forum of knowledgeable peers or esteemed academics, you would be hopelessly lost, making lots of mistakes, reading all the crap together with the good stuff, and taking longer to self-develop [20:44]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can readily see a us religious nut sponsor for that. [20:45]
asciilifeform decimation: you won't. because 'ai winter.' (and you also won't hear many people discuss how such 'winters' are the flip sides of 'summers', bacchanalia of grantsmanship and graft) [20:45]
moriarty the benefit of university is underrated, the constant feedback available ensures you minimise your time to develop your skillset sufficiently and deeply for profitable employment [20:45]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: sponsor for what ? [20:46]
bounce AI cure for gayness? [20:46]
decimation asciilifeform: the universities that moriarty mentions being peopled with the same bureaucrats seeking grants [20:46]
moriarty decimation, heh the modern AI researcher uses any language at his disposal [20:46]
moriarty decimation, when i was studying and eventually doing research in AI, we got to use anything we like [20:46]
asciilifeform moriarty: 'got to' != 'used' [20:47]
bounce moriarty: missing the point though [20:47]
moriarty so i used things like Prolog, Haskell, Java, C, or even Matlab [20:47]
decimation moriarty: didn't you perceive this as a problem, given your previous point about mixing crap with the good? [20:47]
asciilifeform ^ not one of which is homoiconic. [20:47]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the guy you mention. [20:47]
moriarty decimation, heh good point [20:47]
asciilifeform the fact that i - ever - have to actually stop and explain word 'homoiconic' is proof that 'getting to' use a lisp is not enough. [20:48]
moriarty decimation, unfortunately whenever money comes into the picture, it tilts the balance of power in the favour of the funder [20:48]
moriarty decimation, and those down the value chain, i.e. the grant writer [20:48]
decimation I don't distinguish much between the welfare recipient and the grant recipient [20:48]
moriarty decimation, and, then those who keep the university running, i.e. the undergraduates [20:49]
decimation the former being generally honest enough to admit to his scam [20:49]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform for shits and giggles i asked if anone knew him. no answer. [20:49]
moriarty decimation, and graduate researchers pretty much sit at the bottom of the food chain [20:49]
moriarty decimation, even below lab technicians [20:49]
moriarty they can pretty much make or break your work, no laughing matter [20:49]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'anyone' where? [20:49]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 27214 @ 0.00003108 = 0.8458 BTC [-] {18} [20:49]
moriarty decimation, heh [20:50]
moriarty decimation, at least the latter is voluntary [20:50]
moriarty decimation, i never saw the point in taxation being mandatory [20:50]
mircea_popescu #lesswrong [20:50]
moriarty but that's just the ancap bit of me speaking [20:50]
mircea_popescu i just handed them their ass too, i suspect either a ban or a wambulance coming [20:50]
moriarty mircea_popescu, lol let me see [20:51]
asciilifeform << me derping on their site back when had time/inclination [20:51]
assbot Overview for asciilifeform - Less Wrong [20:51]
asciilifeform i used to be rather into the idea of 'hard ai' before realized that we don't even know how to build a computer. [20:52]
decimation !b 1 [20:52]
assbot Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [20:52]
moriarty asciilifeform, you're forgiven [20:52]
bounce we don't? [20:52]
moriarty asciilifeform, everybody who ventures into AI informally makes that exact same mistake [20:52]
moriarty bounce, i think he means build a brain [20:53]
decimation asciilifeform: in the end it doesn't matter if the gasenwagen is driven by robot/ai or communist bureaucrats [20:53]
asciilifeform moriarty: except that i ventured formally. [20:53]
moriarty asciilifeform, really? interesting [20:53]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i guess ima publish, save myself the effort next time i feel inclined to explore teh ircworld. [20:53]
moriarty asciilifeform, and they didn't inform you that hard AI was a largely abandoned endeavour [20:53]
xmj moriarty: people say that google and peers are bad for you when you really want to learn things.. [20:53]
xmj moriarty: ...people say ltos [20:54]
moriarty asciilifeform, it used to be an active area of investigation in the seventies [20:54]
asciilifeform moriarty: born - and died - with the lisp machine. [20:54]
asciilifeform not a coincidence. [20:54]
moriarty xmj, sure, i see your point [20:54]
xmj moriarty: "standing on the shoulders of giants" [20:55]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform why not a coincidence ? [20:55]
moriarty xmj, yep exactly [20:55]
xmj that's how knowledge creation update transmission etc works. [20:55]
xmj has, does, will [20:55]
moriarty xmj, it helps to have a walking encyclopedia who you can tap into [20:55]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: recall your quip about heart and liver ? [20:55]
mircea_popescu yeah. [20:55]
xmj well you could also develop your memory [20:55]
xmj mnemonics is fun [20:55]
mircea_popescu but im asking, how are they integrated ? [20:55]
moriarty xmj, everybody is at various stages of knowledge, you gain help no matter who you ask along that spectrum, the key distinguishing feature though is rate of absorption [20:55]
moriarty xmj, or rate of dissemination rather [20:55]
moriarty xmj, you get to the point much quicker with someone more experienced, more knowledgeable [20:56]
moriarty xmj, and it's hard to get such people lurking on the internet :) not impossible, but rare [20:56]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the final doom of smbx corp. was sealed by 'ai winter.' in turn, the demise of the lm ensured that there would be no 'spring' - because carrying on the work in a non-homoiconic language is much like attempting algebra with roman digits. [20:56]
bounce they'd rather hear themselves pontificate? [20:56]
xmj you have no idea lol [20:56]
asciilifeform (^ above is a terrible oversimplification. lm was not simply about language, but the entire interface.) [20:57]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform seems a weak reason tbh. i mean, there are good lisp implementations today, or not ? [20:57]
mircea_popescu wh ythe sbx machine specifically ? [20:57]
asciilifeform nope. [20:57]
moriarty asciilifeform, where did you attend previously? [20:57]
moriarty i recognise some AI practitioners on here [20:57]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: to understand, it is necessary to see it. e.g., [20:57]
assbot Loper OS » Kalman Reti, the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines. [20:58]
mircea_popescu so the idea is, the tool required (os/stack/machine) has no industrial utility and without convincing the industry it needs ai to sponsor the thing, there's never going to be either ? [20:58]
asciilifeform moriarty: don't misunderstand, i was never a professional academic. [20:58]
moriarty asciilifeform, fair enough, still if you've formally undertaken AI as a major, that's something [20:58]
moriarty asciilifeform, which university? [20:58]
asciilifeform moriarty: no. went to uni, ordinary 'cs', but vomited from 'ai' courses. [20:59]
moriarty i see copumpkin on here, he's also into AI :) [20:59]
moriarty asciilifeform, nice [20:59]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: had industrial utility (one of largest customers - 'american express') - but - smbx spent $maxint on r&d, relied on usg to pay for this. [21:00]
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mircea_popescu how much did they actually spend ? [21:00]
bounce you're saying hard AI needs hardware with specific lisp support? [21:00]
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decimation (a common model for technical companies with any defense contracts) [21:00]
mircea_popescu bounce it is a strange argument on the face, but perhaps the idea is such a hard problem can only be conveniently breached at this angle. much like satellites aren't launched from tiera del fuego [21:00]
moriarty hah [21:01]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the death of smbx corp. is almost an entire field of scholarship.. [21:01]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform topmost figure ? 1mn ? 1bn ? [21:01]
asciilifeform bn is close. [21:01]
asciilifeform one famous treatise on subject: [21:02]
moriarty what are the advantages of lisp over haskell for instance? [21:02]
mircea_popescu so about 1/7000 the recent involvement in the middle east ? [21:02]
moriarty with respect to AI [21:02]
mircea_popescu aww. [21:02]
bounce what's the cost of cooking up a chip or two these days? [21:02]
asciilifeform moriarty: it isn't merely about lisps. [21:02]
[]bot Bet created: "Alibaba shares above 115 before November 25th" [21:03]
moriarty asciilifeform, so functional and logical languages, cool [21:03]
asciilifeform moriarty: rather, it is about the kind of interaction with the machine that it makes possible. [21:03]
* bounce recalls chuck moore cobbling up his own FORTH chips [21:03]
asciilifeform functional << nope. the non-homoiconic languages - do not make it possible. [21:03]
moriarty heh fair enough [21:04]
moriarty Prolog is homoiconic so i see your point [21:04]
asciilifeform not really, no. [21:05]
moriarty Haskell certainly lacks in that department though it makes up for it with purity, monads [21:05]
asciilifeform haskell is an american chumpatronic masterpiece. [21:06]
bounce what, type theory? [21:06]
asciilifeform yes. [21:06]
asciilifeform pseudo-mathematics, all of it. [21:06]
moriarty Prolog is not homoiconic? [21:07]
moriarty :) [21:07]
asciilifeform not s-expression - not homoiconic. [21:07]
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asciilifeform << by popular demand of readers, explanation of what is the scam, and why. [21:08]
assbot Loper OS » Of Decaying Urbits. [21:08]
asciilifeform << linked from above, mr mold's explanation (written presumably before the chumpatron re-swallowed him, this time - for good.) [21:08]
assbot Unqualified Reservations: My Navrozov moments [21:09]
asciilifeform bounce: Forth is an example of 'lisp' re-invented by an outsider. there is another example - 'refal'. (soviet) [21:09]
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asciilifeform both of these are quite their own animals, and most users would make a face if you called it 'a lisp' - but they are as much 'a lisp' as newton and leibniz both had the 'calculus.' [21:11]
moriarty you can do s-expressions in Prolog, asciilifeform [21:11]
asciilifeform 'can' != SOP. [21:11]
* assbot removes voice from moriarty [21:11]
asciilifeform (what's a lisp? my treatment of subject - ) [21:11]
assbot Loper OS » The Simplest Lisp Machine [21:11]
asciilifeform !up moriarty [21:11]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [21:11]
moriarty asciilifeform, this is devolving into an advocacy debate :) [21:11]
* assbot gives voice to Guest17444 [21:11]
moriarty i'm not for Prolog, so it doesn't matter to me [21:12]
Guest17444 Hmmm [21:12]
moriarty i've used Lisp and like it as well [21:12]
* asciilifeform has been writing an entire blog on the subject, since '07, and doesn't see the need to continue pasting it here... [21:12]
* Guest17444 is now known as TheNewDeal [21:12]
TheNewDeal There we go [21:12]
asciilifeform moriarty - lisp on x86 pc is 'lisp' in much the same way 'holy roman empire' is the roman empire. [21:13]
moriarty asciilifeform, sure, Prolog works the same way too :) [21:13]
asciilifeform !up daybyter [21:14]
moriarty but don't let me get your feathers ruffled :P [21:14]
* assbot gives voice to daybyter [21:14]
moriarty hehe [21:14]
daybyter Thanks! [21:14]
moriarty i quite enjoyed and loathed functional programming whether it was in Lisp/Prolog etc [21:14]
moriarty the simplicity of your code, balanced against the length of time it took you to write it [21:14]
daybyter Are you using lisp/prolog for trading stuff? [21:14]
* assbot gives voice to nubbins` [21:14]
nubbins` sweet, fresh OS X install and my keys survived the round trip [21:15]
moriarty and i must say that the beauty of functional languages is that you get to attain that rare accomplishment of writing a bug-free code in the first round [21:15]
* nubbins` breathes small sighof relief [21:15]
moriarty daybyter, yes i have tried doing so [21:15]
moriarty just for fun because i was bored out of my mind [21:16]
daybyter I tried drools. [21:16]
daybyter I think I could use jscheme, too. [21:16]
moriarty daybyter, unfortunately Lisp or Prolog is not high level enough for financial trading [21:17]
moriarty daybyter, so what we ended up doing was using proprietary languages that allow us to atomically describe market conditions with ease [21:18]
asciilifeform moriarty: in point of fact, any serious industrial use of a lisp proceeds by first creating just such a language for the system in question, and then programming in it. [21:18]
daybyter [21:18]
assbot Formal definition of a trading language [21:18]
asciilifeform moriarty: when you pay $1m for a 'q' license, etc. you are buying out of having to carry out this labour. [21:19]
decimation (he used the u so you would understand) [21:19]
moriarty asciilifeform, that makes perfect sense [21:19]
moriarty decimation, hah [21:19]
moriarty asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work [21:20]
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moriarty asciilifeform, all the things one takes for granted, the support from community at large is non-existent in a corporate setting :) so what was trivial in popular languages had to be polished up, e.g. good documentation and example codes [21:21]
asciilifeform moriarty: relevant: [21:21]
assbot Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science [21:21]
asciilifeform (thread) [21:21]
* assbot gives voice to hanbot [21:22]
asciilifeform moriarty: the 'support of the community' - that is, mainstream 'programmer culture' - is pure intellectual poison. the farther from it - the better. [21:22]
moriarty daybyter, interesting, i was thinking of perhaps less specific but at the same time more atomic than simple moving averages [21:23]
daybyter I actually never trading ema crossing, or so. [21:23]
moriarty daybyter, i'm thinking in terms of interest rates, manufacturing activity, GDP delta, CPI, retail sales, etc [21:24]
moriarty daybyter, and of course i assume a full-fledged basic mathematical suite to support doing whatever i want to the model [21:24]
daybyter seems, like you are far ahead... [21:24]
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daybyter I'm working on simple arb stuff and such. [21:25]
daybyter I want to create a framework to build on. [21:25]
* asciilifeform always wonders, on first meeting a trading bot enthusiast, whether he considers basic game theory and contemplates counterpoint rape-bot answers to his strategies. [21:25]
daybyter [21:26]
asciilifeform if 'buy cheap, sell dear' is state-of-the-art, then yes, anyone can write bot. [21:27]
xmj that's arbitrage to you [21:27]
xmj you can also sell dear, buy cheap if you're into shortselling :) [21:27]
bounce to some snazzy beasty boys tune [21:28]
moriarty asciilifeform, i see the points made there, make it high level enough that you don't need to get bogged down by the side-work in the midst of pursuing your main objectives [21:28]
asciilifeform xmj: more fun - ferret out simplistic bots and rape them. [21:28]
moriarty asciilifeform, and couldn't agree with it more :) [21:28]
xmj asciilifeform: meh, i prefer gaming bigger systems [21:29]
moriarty asciilifeform, a lot of the bugs arise typically not from the main objectives by the side-work in getting simple I/O right, etc, a lot of which can really be templated [21:29]
asciilifeform xmj: in this particular space, the 'bigger system' often consists of a horde of idiots operating small systems. [21:29]
xmj we call it 'society' [21:29]
bounce apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not? [21:30]
moriarty lol bounce [21:31]
asciilifeform !s chumpatron [21:31]
assbot 116 results for 'chumpatron' : [21:31]
moriarty bounce, this calls for a good ol' [21:31]
assbot xkcd: Sheeple [21:31]
bounce lose the smug arrogance and you know what to look for to improve yourself [21:33]
asciilifeform too often 'lose the smug arrogance' is when pig says to man 'you think you're too good to eat shit with us, you bugger' [21:34]
asciilifeform of course, this can end in several distinct ways. [21:35]
asciilifeform one being - this - [21:35]
assbot Pigsty. - Imgur [21:35]
bounce hmno. you're mistaking your peers keeping you down with the humility needed to climb up by yourself [21:35]
moriarty heh asciilifeform brought up a good point on trading though [21:35]
moriarty it's all about grasping the mindset of the mainstream, and then harvesting that to your advantage [21:36]
moriarty if you have a good perception of what will be the populist stance, then you can make a trading move to optimise your profits in response [21:37]
asciilifeform moriarty: fundamentally broken model here though [21:37]
moriarty that's what i did when i tried to profit off bitcoin [21:37]
moriarty asciilifeform, how's that? [21:37]
asciilifeform there is no 'populist stance', there is a set of finite automata [21:37]
asciilifeform e.g., a crowd of simple 'visual basic' bots each playing arbitrage and programmed with a 'stop-loss' threshold [21:38]
moriarty well, emergence [21:38]
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moriarty individual automatons act in ways that coherently reinforce into a distinct pattern [21:38]
moriarty think crowd behaviour as they exit a museum [21:38]
moriarty they may amble along seemingly individualistic paths but the feedback arising from interaction with other criss-crossing of paths result in a very predictable wave [21:39]
moriarty same it is with anything else, even in the markets [21:39]
moriarty you may act individually, but your response to feedback from the market constraints that individuality, and as a whole, the market acts very mechanistically, well, if you can pin it down of course [21:40]
moriarty the constraints of the market is at its most basic, everybody is driven by greed and fear [21:41]
moriarty without any training, the basic market participant buys at the high and sells at the low, despite being cognisant of the mantra to the contrary [21:41]
* assbot removes voice from moriarty [21:41]
asciilifeform !up moriarty [21:42]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [21:42]
moriarty greed drives the buys at the highs [21:42]
moriarty fear drives the sells at the lows [21:42]
moriarty we know we shouldn't do it, but we do it anyway :) and if you can partition the market into the emotional plays, and the bot plays, you can then expect to tailor your response accordingly [21:42]
moriarty you can get some sort of clue based on the amount of money in the system, and the flow rate [21:43]
moriarty institutional flows are of magnitudes higher, for instance [21:43]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu, others : << smbx for the impatient. [21:43]
assbot Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science [21:43]
asciilifeform (entire thread recommended) [21:43]
moriarty heh [21:44]
moriarty that's the fallacy of homeschooling [21:44]
* assbot removes voice from daybyter [21:44]
moriarty whenever someone makes a comment like last programming language, it's a giveaway sign they have no formal education in CS [21:45]
asciilifeform (re: smbx) must say that some things absolutely must be experienced to be understood. i went to considerable lengths to actually obtain the machine before i dared to write about it at any great length. [21:45]
moriarty the very basics of comparative languages as one of the electives or course modules in CS will inform anyone that the history of language development was in response to advances in hardware, but at the same time, paradigms from ages before still come into play today at various points in the hardware spectrum, if no longer on your desktop, then at least on your mobile devices which are [21:46]
moriarty still constrained [21:46]
moriarty no one-size-fits-all solution, last language, pfft [21:46]
moriarty :P [21:46]
bounce so make a new fancy box that does lisp from the ground up. [21:47]
moriarty hah :) [21:48]
asciilifeform moriarty: all of these devices are quite the same from the standpoint of, e.g., 1970s hardware architect (in whose time there were actually multiple cpu paradigms in use) [21:48]
moriarty asciilifeform, i'm surprised Clojure is still popular [21:48]
mircea_popescu << if anyone feels like arguing the ethics/moral question, i'm all ears. [21:49]
moriarty for me, it died before it even became mainstream [21:49]
assbot The irc world is a big but very flat place. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [21:49]
mircea_popescu this is where i [21:49]
mircea_popescu wil redirect anyone trying to do so in the future. [21:49]
moriarty asciilifeform, sure, and then you get the philosophical stances behind strong vs weak typing, how many passes would you like your compilation to occur, how about parallelism for that matter, etc [21:52]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: It’s a one time universal library card << yes, yes it is. [21:52]
* asciilifeform plugs in 'read all books in the world for free' machine to recharge. [21:53]
asciilifeform moriarty: in point of fact, given correct hardware design ('dataflow' machine) neither compilers nor 'parallelism' as conventionally understood - are necessary concepts at all. [21:53]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work << that'd explain why you so drastically overestimate the "conversation" going on between empty barrels rolling downhill. [21:54]
mircea_popescu aka academics. [21:54]
moriarty mircea_popescu, lol [21:55]
asciilifeform academic used to be an actual animal, extinct around same time as 'passenger pigeon' [21:55]
asciilifeform possibly a few survivors (in soviet captivity) but that was it. [21:55]
moriarty mircea_popescu, yeah i don't care too much for academia, when i've realised the amount of crap coming from most institutions [21:56]
mircea_popescu i suspect the azns may have some extant [21:56]
asciilifeform confucian version is a capon. [21:56]
asciilifeform animal with glands cut out - not the same. [21:56]
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moriarty mircea_popescu, it doesn't help that the metrics of a good academic is the number of publications, one that seems to be robust in the face of peer review, but take a peek behind the curtain only to unveil the editorial committee having ties to the same university, sigh [21:57]
mircea_popescu bounce: apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not? << this is such nonsense. why would you care ? [21:57]
mircea_popescu moriarty it's a problem of dynamic equilibrium. peer review worked before weight was put on it. [21:57]
mircea_popescu the average idiot tasked with "making policy" and "framework" for absolutely no reason doesn't get this, [21:58]
mircea_popescu proceeds to act as if the static image he perceived, more or less blurry, is made out of diamond. [21:58]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform not the same, yes. alive, also yes. [21:59]
mircea_popescu recall your argument re the statist agriculture endgame ? [21:59]
mircea_popescu the chinese got there, but with thinking. their thinkers can't reproduce w/o the state. it proved ruinous but it is not yet abandoned. [21:59]
asciilifeform sure [21:59]
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asciilifeform [22:00]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2014 03:41:36; asciilifeform: even ancient china, apparently, had 'cram schools.' (see miyazaki, 'china's examination hell' - neat little monograph on the subject) [22:00]
asciilifeform ^ great little book [22:00]
asciilifeform chinese system did then - and afaik, still does - select, with mind-boggling efficiency, for the uncreative 'human computer' type. [22:02]
moriarty agreed, mircea_popescu [22:02]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, it doesn't reproduce :) [22:03]
chetty well in china if you are not the robot type you jump out the window, not reproduce [22:03]
moriarty peer review would work if it was more well-thought out like a jury system [22:03]
moriarty but i guess once a system is put in place, resistance would act against any attempts to better the status quo [22:04]
mircea_popescu moriarty it would work as a wot system, and as that only. [22:04]
mircea_popescu and resistance will be washed away on the simple grounds that well... fiat world is going to africa anyway. [22:05]
moriarty heh [22:05]
moriarty africa is busy trying to make the banks more accessible to the citizen on the street [22:06]
moriarty giving away of free bank accounts, mobile telebanking etc [22:06]
asciilifeform moriarty: bezzle retrofit. snore. [22:06]
* chetty remembers when US banks gave prizes for opening accounts [22:07]
asciilifeform chetty: it's in fashion agai. [22:07]
asciilifeform n [22:07]
jurov lol asciilifeform this is a gem [22:08]
assbot Let's reimplement EURISKO! - Less Wrong [22:08]
moriarty in our attempt to fathom why africa has such a different development trail, we have come up with some interesting cause models, from the bias introduced by the Mercator projection, to the irrelevancy of subdividing world population based on continental shelves [22:08]
jurov Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky This is a road that does not lead to Friendly AI, only to AGI. I doubt this has anything to do with Lenat's motives - but I'm glad the source code isn't published and I don't think you'd be doing a service to the human species by trying to reimplement it. [22:08]
jurov they banned you cauz of this? huehuehue [22:08]
mircea_popescu moriarty there's nothing to fathom. africa is the craddle of civilisation. better people leave, so they left. [22:09]
xmj what [22:09]
xmj moriarty: where'd you get that one from [22:09]
mircea_popescu what's left is the multi-millenial selected scum of humanity. [22:09]
asciilifeform jurov: not formally banned, no. but 'persona non grata' [22:09]
penguirker New blog post: [22:09]
* asciilifeform actually FOIA'd all the available lenat material and still has thick binder of mildly interesting goodies [22:09]
moriarty xmj, get what from? [22:09]
moriarty xmj, oh, the cause models [22:10]
xmj 'in our attempt..' was a quote right? [22:10]
moriarty xmj, no, i wrote that [22:10]
moriarty xmj, some have posited that the reason why Africa received much less development is because of the way our map projections undermine the true size of Africa [22:10]
* xmj facepalms [22:11]
mircea_popescu possibly one of the more stupid things to come out of academia. [22:11]
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xmj damn white privilege putting maps out in projections that disfavor blacks [22:11]
asciilifeform jurov: 'friendly' means something very particular to these folks. it means, developed under the dictatorial control of mr. y and his clique of fellators, in accordance with various 'rules' stated in his (often contradictory) blatherings. [22:11]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform so basically they aspire to b-a-hood ? [22:12]
moriarty lol xmj [22:12]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: approximately. [22:12]
* assbot removes voice from moriarty [22:12]
asciilifeform !up moriarty [22:12]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [22:12]
mircea_popescu such a crime. [22:12]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: except that they subscribe to every dogma of present-day usg (incl. 'climate science', 'equality', 'democracy') and so maintain various pretenses. [22:13]
mircea_popescu well, i didn't mean b-a-hood in the "it's sensible and it works" sense, i mearly meant it in the "rule the wrold" sense. [22:14]
xmj moriarty: now comes your neoreactionary and inquires "if western europeans built such beautiful institutions such as states that actually hold together over centuries, industries, absolute nuclear family that favors outbreeding, and an army that could literally dominate the entire world..." [22:14]
xmj moriarty: "why didn't they?" [22:14]
asciilifeform in that sense - yes. but with the usg-like mask of 'we will neuter you for your own good' [22:14]
mircea_popescu "ETA: How concerned should we be that DARPA is going full steam ahead for strong AI? Perhaps not very much, given the failure of at least two of their projects along these lines" [22:15]
moriarty xmj, lol [22:15]
mircea_popescu heh. full steam ? hardly. [22:15]
xmj moriarty: you cannot receive development, you don't deserve development, you develop and then you've earned it. [22:15]
mircea_popescu hey, he has a point for once,. [22:15]
xmj moriarty: i wanted to look up the map of the neoreactionary blogosphere for you, sec [22:15]
xmj moriarty: (not themap but interesting_ [22:16]
assbot Racism has a new name: HBD [22:16]
asciilifeform the sheer density of epicycles the lw types lay on and on, to keep various dogma ('equality', etc) going - is something to behold. [22:16]
xmj equality and equalitarianism must die. [22:17]
mircea_popescu lw ? [22:17]
asciilifeform 'less-wrong' [22:17]
mircea_popescu ah. [22:18]
xmj moriarty: [22:18]
assbot Mapping The Dark Enlightenment [22:18]
* asciilifeform used to read nearly all of these ^ people - today, none. [22:19]
asciilifeform because - bored. [22:19]
moriarty xmj, lol "thinking housewife" [22:19]
moriarty that made me chuckle [22:19]
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decimation asciilifeform: did you post those lenat papers somewhere? I have a reasonably fast digitizer if you lack [22:19]
asciilifeform decimation: may have posted, but i forget where and when [22:19]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform what's agi supposed to be again ? [22:19]
xmj there's lots of good memes [22:19]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'artificial general intelligence' in their parlance. [22:20]
mircea_popescu sooo... ? [22:20]
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mircea_popescu o, that's bad because it could mp them out of existence ? [22:20]
xmj [22:20]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they have an elaborate narrative where 'intelligence' can take on the role of uncontrolled fissile chain reaction (of the kind that was thought to be possible pre-1945) [22:21]
xmj hrm, still not the right one [22:21]
xmj i'm missing vdare on this picture [22:21]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform seems pretty banal. what else would it do. [22:21]
xmj << there we go. [22:22]
mircea_popescu the rich get richer ; the smart get smarter ** 2; [22:22]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you were to listen to mr. y, mis-programmed 'agi' is likely to, e.g., disassemble the known universe into constituent atoms to build a gigantic live mendeleev table. because it likes to sort things. or the like... [22:22]
moriarty heh [22:22]
mircea_popescu now that's nonsense. [22:22]
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moriarty Yudkowsky is reason enough why formal education makes all the difference in the world [22:23]
mircea_popescu not likely, but if it decided to... who is yudjowsky to say no. [22:23]
xmj how so? [22:23]
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mircea_popescu kinda like the position of the girl being propositioned. if hte guy is good enough, not her place to have an opinion, not really. [22:23]
xmj his HPMOR series is awesome [22:23]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: well, he'd like to have a say in whether anyone gets to research. [22:23]
xmj as to the rest, no idea [22:23]
mircea_popescu lol, sounds like a winner. [22:24]
asciilifeform by alliance with usg, on one front, and subterfuge / 'kool aid dosing' subversion of likely participants - on other front. [22:24]
decimation yeah I guess there's this fantasy that he can personally steer research toward non-angry-ai-god ai [22:24]
moriarty did he watch too much AI doomsday movies? [22:24]
asciilifeform 'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks [22:24]
moriarty maybe i should do some good with my bitcoin winnings, and put some of those intelligent folks through school [22:25]
asciilifeform example of mr y and his thought process - [22:25]
assbot Value is Fragile - Less Wrong [22:25]
asciilifeform there's ~1000+ of these, i won't link to them all, not everyone is a zoologist of crackpots [22:26]
decimation I suspect few recognize the irony of turning away from traditional worship of Jahweh to worship some hobo [22:26]
mircea_popescu 'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks << this is a major problem in search for a solution. [22:26]
mircea_popescu there's so many various different examples of it... [22:26]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lw was itself, for a time, a 'solution' to reddit and hnews [22:26]
asciilifeform (mass exodus) [22:27]
decimation in the middle ages, the local barons would think of themselves as personally responsible to nurture the talent of the local intelligent young boys [22:27]
mircea_popescu o hey, trilema is not on the "dark enlightenment" map w/e that is. i guess im cool like that! [22:27]
mircea_popescu decimation orly ? [22:27]
asciilifeform decimation: ^ the only organized approach known to work [22:27]
asciilifeform except not middle ages, but far later [22:27]
mircea_popescu do you mean like 5 people in the renaiisant italy or what. [22:28]
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decimation "Gauss's intellectual abilities attracted the attention of the Duke of Brunswick,[2] who sent him to the Collegium Carolinum (now Braunschweig University of Technology), which he attended from 1792 to 1795, and to the University of Göttingen from 1795 to 1798. " [22:29]
decimation [22:29]
assbot Carl Friedrich Gauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [22:29]
mircea_popescu decimation when do you think the middle ages are ?! [22:29]
mircea_popescu traditionally it's the fall of rome to the discovery of america. [22:29]
moriarty asciilifeform, there is some truth to that article [22:29]
decimation heh anything before 1950 [22:29]
mircea_popescu lol ok. [22:29]
mircea_popescu you'll confuse people who study history, it's a term of art [22:30]
decimation I guess 'middle ages' was poorly worded [22:30]
xmj huh [22:30]
decimation I should have said "post Renaissance" [22:30]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the man is, approximately, usa and colonies. [22:30]
asciilifeform *map [22:30]
mircea_popescu greeks, roman republic, roman empire, middle ages, renaissance, industrial revolution, modernity, post modernity [22:30]
asciilifeform if you made actual map - i dare say most of it would be painted soviet, chinese, hell knows who else [22:31]
xmj decimation: see, democracy doesn't work that way. [22:31]
decimation bully for democracy [22:31]
asciilifeform perhaps when the lid is taken off, e.g., india - we find thought there [22:31]
mircea_popescu ~3000, ~300, 0, 1500, 1700, 1850, 1950 [22:31]
xmj with democracy you (as temporary ruler) have no incentive to make your young boys/girls look good. [22:31]
Apocalyptic the only incentive is to get reelected yes [22:32]
decimation mircea_popescu: sounds legit, I'll try to adopt that nomenclature [22:32]
asciilifeform xmj: overwhelming incentive to back-door 'merit' systems to promote blood relations: [22:32]
mircea_popescu decimation cheap and easy hack. [22:32]
asciilifeform !s merit wash [22:32]
assbot 9 results for 'merit wash' : [22:32]
* Lycerion_ is now known as Lycerion [22:32]
decimation yeah in 'modern' times the common solution was to send the kids off to 'elite' boarding schools and so forth [22:33]
moriarty so is anyone working here by any chance? [22:34]
moriarty or are everyone here avid bitcoin miners/traders full-time? [22:34]
decimation I work, to eat [22:34]
moriarty heh :) [22:34]
* asciilifeform works several jobs [22:34]
decimation I'm only a zek [22:34]
mircea_popescu moriarty what do you mean working here. [22:34]
moriarty mircea_popescu, self-employed, entrepreneur, corporate cog, etc [22:35]
mircea_popescu oh. [22:35]
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mircea_popescu decimation really it started during the renaissance, as an attempt to bite the fruit of life fully. [22:36]
asciilifeform usually the question presumes certain customary rituals [22:36]
moriarty mircea_popescu, are you a fan of Dan-Mircea Popescu? [22:36]
mircea_popescu moriarty just some random twerp, no relevancy no relation. [22:36]
decimation mircea_popescu: you mean educatin' the local youths? [22:36]
mircea_popescu decimation yes. [22:36]
mircea_popescu in a sense, the renaissance was the golden age of us libtardism. [22:37]
decimation asciilifeform: do you write lisp in exchange for bezzlars? [22:37]
mircea_popescu back then princesses went into the hovels to rescue genius. [22:37]
asciilifeform decimation: nope. but i do solve problems for bezzlars [22:37]
mircea_popescu the current libtards are really just trying to do a sort of "being cinderella" except a little deeper than disney [22:37]
asciilifeform decimation: and it sometimes - when absolutely cannot be avoided - requires writing programs. [22:37]
moriarty asciilifeform, lol [22:37]
mircea_popescu by now it's a good three centuries plus a world explored past its sell by date [22:38]
moriarty asciilifeform, you make it sound like you dislike programming [22:38]
moriarty pshaw [22:38]
decimation I think it has been mooted here that the reason why the early (1800's) us worked for awhile is because of the memories of law&order beaten into the parents & grandparents of those living here [22:38]
moriarty !up daybyter [22:38]
moriarty awh :) daybyter wanted to say something on the main [22:39]
* asciilifeform in fact dislikes programming [22:39]
decimation !up daybyter [22:39]
* assbot gives voice to daybyter [22:39]
moriarty asciilifeform, yeah i think nobody likes coding for the sake of coding [22:39]
decimation asciilifeform: yeah reading your blog has removed the romance of programming for me [22:39]
moriarty most people i know who like coding actually mistake their liking for solving puzzles, for liking coding [22:39]
decimation when I was younger, I wanted to explore the infinite potential [22:39]
mircea_popescu decimation the 1800s worked because at the time europe was mismanaging human resources, and so you could actually get free value by just taking its rejects. then early 1900s worked because the whole country obeyed its betters, so carnegie, rockefeller et co could create a monopoly on the world. [22:40]
mircea_popescu once that died, the country died. [22:40]
decimation yeah that died with wwi, wilson and fdr [22:40]
decimation and the mass suicide of europe [22:40]
mircea_popescu it got a lease on life once eu once again decided to mismanaged, ] [22:41]
mircea_popescu and bombed itself into chad in ww2 [22:41]
mircea_popescu but that's also running out. [22:41]
moriarty didn't the 1800s also work because EU projected its dominance globally through colonialism? [22:41]
mircea_popescu left to stand on its own, buffett's "immense potential" will die under the paws of some young lion [22:42]
mircea_popescu whether that young lion is mp or not. [22:42]
decimation I suspect the American Caesar walks the earth somewhere [22:42]
* assbot removes voice from moriarty [22:42]
mircea_popescu i'll bet you he doesn't. [22:42]
decimation in the sense that the dying country will split rather than come under stronger central rule? [22:43]
mircea_popescu in the sense that a boring place can not have interesting people. [22:43]
mircea_popescu this is like saying kentucky has a hemingway [22:43]
mircea_popescu orly. [22:43]
decimation heh. he did spend most of his life adventuring among the gauls [22:44]
mircea_popescu but as such he exists because new york, not because lincoln, nebraska. [22:44]
mircea_popescu the american caesar, if he exists, will caesarize in chile or w/e. [22:45]
decimation this is an illusion to some extant, because new york/coastal cities suck the intelligent youth from flyover country [22:45]
mircea_popescu well, now the whole us is flyover country. [22:45]
decimation when usd is no longer king, new york sudden finds itself ... lacking value [22:46]
[]bot Bet placed: 17 BTC for No on "1BTC >= $10,000 USD" Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 15(Y):85(N) by weight. Total bet: 830.28919187 BTC. Current weight: 16,739. [22:46]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform wants to escape it. why ? and how is his desire different from young peasant kid in village in russia cca 1814 [22:46]
mircea_popescu or housewife in midwest in 1964 ? [22:46]
mircea_popescu "it sucks at home". course it does. cause boring place with boring people. [22:47]
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decimation or the german farmer circa 1850 [22:47]
mircea_popescu it's not even a matter of whether social justice and pc and the rest of the crap is right or wrong [22:47]
mircea_popescu for all anyone cares, the ideas of midwest people re cattle and rain are right. [22:47]
mircea_popescu just nobody wanted to sit there and discuss that. [22:47]
decimation boredom is a powerful motivator [22:48]
mircea_popescu quite. and intellectually dead places go beddy-bye whether they agree they're intellectually dead or not. [22:49]
decimation this is one of the 'safety valves' of mass-democracy (like in scotland) [22:49]
decimation the illusion of a mysterious outcome keeps the people invested [22:50]
mircea_popescu not sure how long that lasts, and it selects negatively. [22:50]
mircea_popescu the ones it keeps you didn't want. much like africa forever, much like renaissance europe ec. [22:50]
asciilifeform decimation: 'valve' << except for the problem that the defeated are left alive, to stink loudly and plan a comeback [22:50]
decimation which is why victory is so terrible for the triumphant empire [22:51]
mircea_popescu i really was expecting independence [22:52]
decimation independence would have been the more amusing outcome, for sure [22:52]
decimation It would be fun to watch an english-speaking enclave go full libtard [22:52]
asciilifeform independence << that is only a permitted outcome when the 'orcs' vote. [22:52]
mircea_popescu i still dunno wtf they did to make such a wide margin happen. [22:53]
decimation They should have allowed infants to vote [22:53]
mircea_popescu or maybe i don't well understand the structures of incentive, not living there [22:53]
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mircea_popescu but why would anyone want in the uk ?! [22:53]
mircea_popescu it's like wanting to be part of puerto rico [22:53]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: unless i'm misinformed, scotland runs deep in the red. [22:53]
mircea_popescu so ? [22:54]
asciilifeform snip it off - get a 'greece'. [22:54]
decimation I suspect a big voting bloc were welfare recipients who feared the sudden lack of welfare bezzlars [22:54]
mircea_popescu decimation but they got the oil [22:54]
mircea_popescu so they can borrow anew [22:54]
mircea_popescu so... MORE welfare. [22:54]
mircea_popescu not less [22:54]
decimation that's a good point [22:54]
decimation and welfare states work much better when the population is smaller [22:54]
decimation ie kuwait [22:54]
mircea_popescu quite. [22:55]
mircea_popescu plus, russia'd have loved to sponsor them [22:55]
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mircea_popescu which is why i expected landslide independence rly. [22:55]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ^ precisely why this outcome wasn't on the menu. [22:55]
mircea_popescu seemed to me putin's counter to the ukraine. fuck with us, lose the uk sorta deal. [22:55]
decimation russia would love to shower scotland with bezzlars so he could use them as a wedge to split the eu [22:55]
mircea_popescu imagine, russian nuke subs in glasgow. [22:55]
mircea_popescu while england's own "fleet", w/e it is lol... do they still have it btw ? [22:56]
mircea_popescu 1 1/2 subs [22:56]
mircea_popescu desperate for dresden passage [22:56]
decimation yeah they still have a handful of nuke subs [22:56]
mircea_popescu hardly a handful im sure [22:56]
asciilifeform perhaps ru subs are already in glasgow. without having to also keep scots as pets. [22:56]
decimation I think they recently retired their 'aircraft carrier' [22:56]
decimation [22:57]
assbot HMS Invincible (R05) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [22:57]
bounce !up moriarty [22:57]
* assbot gives voice to moriarty [22:57]
moriarty so i bet on scotland outcome [22:58]
moriarty and came out $250k richer [22:58]
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moriarty life has been good to me [22:58]
mircea_popescu 1/4 mn ?! [22:59]
moriarty yep [22:59]
mircea_popescu where the hell did you bet that [22:59]
moriarty william hill [22:59]
mircea_popescu hey, wd. [22:59]
mircea_popescu what were the ods ? [22:59]
moriarty 1/4 [22:59]
decimation reading the history of the falklands war demonstrates how threadbare the uk military really is [23:00]
moriarty thanks, it's a nice outcome after months of boring market action [23:00]
moriarty the only country in the world with serious military gear is the US [23:00]
bounce there's russia still [23:01]
moriarty and as of this moment, they are being led by a pussyfoot for a president [23:01]
bounce oh and china [23:01]
moriarty lol china [23:01]
mircea_popescu no. china. [23:01]
mircea_popescu the us is negligible by comparison. [23:01]
moriarty china has to deceive russia into thinking it is using some old aircraft carrier as museum showpiece [23:01]
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moriarty just so it can get its hands on it [23:01]
mircea_popescu you can tell this by the very good predictor that when china told the us to get fucked, the us secretary of state promised to carefully avoid misunderstandings in the future [23:01]
mircea_popescu in the most humble display of abjection imaginable. [23:02]
moriarty china has economic might not military clout [23:02]
mircea_popescu you are ill informed. [23:02]
bounce if china cared enough it could zerg rush just about anyone. plus their gear is getting better -- best stolen from anywhere. [23:02]
moriarty lol [23:02]
mircea_popescu much better than that, even. [23:02]
mircea_popescu 90s was "better - stolen" [23:02]
mircea_popescu today, forget it. [23:03]
moriarty china's military hardware is up for speculation [23:03]
moriarty until the day it actually uses it, we can argue to no end [23:03]
moriarty for now, their leadership is even more pussyfooted than obama [23:04]
mircea_popescu or we could read secret dispatches, check out how the various actors behave around it, who knows, even go to a military expo. [23:04]
mircea_popescu that's never changing. china is a shitty agressor. [23:04]
decimation << it took 11 refueling planes for one bomber to bomb stanley field in the falklands [23:04]
moriarty its aggressions are all economical so far [23:04]
assbot Operation Black Buck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [23:04]
bounce sure. but you'll note that when the us started to use all those beltway bandit toys they broke in droves and could be pwned by IEDs [23:04]
moriarty "do this or we won't sell you cheap shit" [23:04]
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mircea_popescu moriarty china just isn't particularly aggressive. [23:05]
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bounce the us not only has the most advanced toys anywhere, it relies on them being so. china wouldn't have to. big difference. [23:05]
moriarty mircea_popescu, china is actually pretty aggressive territorially [23:05]
moriarty mircea_popescu, have you seen the latest china passport? [23:05]
mircea_popescu what about it ? [23:05]
decimation they have been derping in the south china sea recently [23:05]
moriarty decimation, exactly [23:06]
mircea_popescu well yeah, it being the south CHINA sea [23:06]
moriarty mircea_popescu, the passport outlines where china thinks its borders are [23:06]
mircea_popescu suppose someone was derping in anchorage bay. [23:06]
mircea_popescu moriarty hardly aggression. [23:06]
decimation [23:06]
assbot Philippines to give U.S. forces access to up to five military bases| Reuters [23:06]
mircea_popescu aggression is when it comes to bomb canada and expects the us to mind its own fucking business. [23:06]
moriarty mircea_popescu, economic aggression can be just as painful [23:07]
mircea_popescu sure. [23:07]
mircea_popescu pain is not the basis of this discussion. [23:07]
moriarty mircea_popescu, as russia is finding out as a result of ukraine [23:07]
mircea_popescu you're misinformed :) [23:07]
mircea_popescu russia is fine. the us is too high to notice how fucked it's getting. [23:07]
decimation moriarty: it looks to me russia has the whip hand [23:07]
decimation what exactly is the us going to do about the ukraine? invade? [23:07]
moriarty decimation, in terms of land grab, maybe [23:07]
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moriarty decimation, but for the cost of its own GDP [23:08]
moriarty i don't know [23:08]
mircea_popescu no, in terms of who gets flattened by an economic war [23:08]
decimation russia's oil will find buyers [23:08]
moriarty well, the US won't be affected by the embargo so much actually [23:08]
moriarty EU is the one who has to suffer [23:08]
mircea_popescu o, i see :D [23:08]
decimation last I read in the newspapers, Germany is pretty much on Russia's side [23:09]
mircea_popescu because the eu is so fucking married to the us and everything. [23:09]
moriarty of course [23:09]
moriarty because Germany has more to lose [23:09]
moriarty well, partially that [23:09]
mircea_popescu moriarty no, because the us is getting screwed in its imaginary economic war. [23:09]
mircea_popescu and germany doesn't want to be in the fallout [23:09]
moriarty but also the EU has more energy dependency on Russia than the US [23:09]
decimation this is true, but the us is itching to start exporting natural gas by ship [23:10]
* assbot removes voice from daybyter [23:10]
decimation no one is going to go without gas or whatever [23:10]
mircea_popescu such an ineffectual process dear lord [23:10]
bounce so, us gas aid for ukraine then? [23:10]
mircea_popescu "let's save the environment by shipping natural gas across the atlantic because we're too bigmouthed to fit a cock" [23:10]
decimation I see it in the cards [23:10]
moriarty lol [23:11]
mircea_popescu bounce yes. airlifted :D [23:11]
mircea_popescu ich been ain odesseer [23:11]
decimation Odessa used to have a very large german population until Stalin [23:11]
mircea_popescu it's what makes the joke good [23:11]
decimation hehe [23:12]
moriarty anyway one of the nice perks of the war is that, Ukrainian beauties now come cheap [23:12]
decimation the mass rabble in the us will have no stomach for intervening in the ukraine [23:12]
moriarty :) [23:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00074843 = 9.5799 BTC [-] {2} [23:13]
mircea_popescu they've alsways been. [23:13]
mircea_popescu sooo... yesterday was trilema's largest reading day. yet nothing happened. 90%+ of it direct, too. wtf. [23:15]
decimation [23:15]
decimation "The Germans from Russia are descendents of Germans who settled in Russia in the years about 1763 to 1862. Their story begins with Tsarina Catherine II (Catherine the Great) who was empress of Russia, but a German princess by birth. In July 1763 she issued a manifesto to attract people from Western Europe to settle in Russia. The manifesto promised new settlers freedom of religion, freedom from taxes for a 5-30 year period, freedom [23:16]
decimation from military service, and free land to farmers. By the end of 1767, German settlers from central Germany had established more than 100 colonies along the Volga River, near Saratov, Russia." [23:16]
decimation mircea_popescu: presumably people were googling for reasons why bitcoin prices were falling [23:16]
moriarty afk folks, enjoy the weekend [23:16]
mircea_popescu decimation i'd see it as search not as direct. meanwhile search incoming is dominated by keywords like "true" [23:16]
mircea_popescu seriously, 20% of my search traffic came looking for... "true" ? what the fucking hell of a cosmic joke is this. [23:17]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.141905 = 0.5676 BTC [+] {2} [23:17]
decimation huh. do the redirects come from particular domains? [23:17]
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mircea_popescu they're not redirects. in fact, linked traffic has always been 10% or less, as far as trilema is concerned. [23:18]
mircea_popescu this month it's more like 4% [23:18]
decimation interesting. So that means people are visiting from bookmarks/rss/etc? [23:19]
mircea_popescu yeah [23:20]
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mircea_popescu well i guess if they have silent (non js, non url-forwarding etc) browsers it could be from anywhere [23:20]
mircea_popescu trilema is really non-js friendly so i guess it prolly has more nonjs readers than average interwebs [23:20]
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mircea_popescu "one of the great strengths of the APL ecosystem so far are the user community. Lispy people are a preposterously pricklish and unhelpful bunch in comparison." [23:21]
mircea_popescu is this true even ? [23:21]
mircea_popescu "But part of it definitely stems from the incessant stream of ignorant criticisms leveled at the Lisp community by outsiders" asciilifeform it occurs to me that if the outsiders can do that then the whole ecosystem empowers outsiders to an outrageous, unwarranted and quite dangerous degree. [23:23]
mircea_popescu if your highschool peers can make you antisocial by claiming you're antisocial then there's no incentive for them to abstain is there. [23:24]
ben_vulpes programmers are the herdiest of creatures [23:25]
ben_vulpes witness the insane popularity of v8 - js on the server! [23:25]
ben_vulpes also infected with "niceness" - don't talk shit on js! it's not nice! [23:26]
mircea_popescu i choose not to witness. [23:26]
bounce saves going door to door [23:26]
decimation no dude node.js is going to change everything [23:26]
mircea_popescu everything that did or w/e that crap was called [23:27]
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mircea_popescu i can't read locklin without him annoying me. such a total schmoozeball. [23:29]
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mircea_popescu "advertising is a symptom of insufficient demand or insufficient supply." naggum o.O [23:36]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'antisocial' in this case is same kind of 'antisocial' as, e.g., mathematicians who won't ask to learn from redditors how to do topology 'correctly according to the kommyoonity!' [23:37]
mircea_popescu this is what i meant, obliquely. if you allow the "community" of screaming monkeys to decide whether you are antisocial type 1 or 2, you're giving them too much power. [23:38]
mircea_popescu and if you conform by doing the "since they call me a thief anyway might as well", you are actually giving away that much power. [23:39]
mircea_popescu consider a simpler case, let me find it. [23:39]
asciilifeform if surrounded by monkeys, and for one reason or another can't call an exterminator - what to do. [23:39]
asciilifeform in this case - walls. [23:39]
asciilifeform walls tall enough that the monkeys don't even know, normally, that there is a something behind them, or walls at all. [23:39]
asciilifeform sometimes - a chimp finds a loose brick, and you have a little infestation problem. [23:40]
mircea_popescu "The site is owned by the most annoying, donkey riding arsehole involved with bitcoin." "Unlike all the others, owned by nice people that ran off with your coins." "I wish that arsehole would run off with all the coins if it meant never hearing from him again." [23:41]
mircea_popescu this should make it obvious. of course redditard monkey would love nothing more than for his idiocy to be confirmed. [23:41]
mircea_popescu important to remember that his declarative statements are powerless to influence reality, and as much as he'd like to live in a world where there's no incentive for me to stay honest, [23:41]
mircea_popescu nevertheless the world and his like have no common points. [23:41]
asciilifeform the most unbearable itch, to monkey, is the mental hole in his picture of the world, the annoying hatefact that rubs his nose in the entire model being horseshit. [23:42]
mircea_popescu right. [23:42]
mircea_popescu but what would be the equivalent to "lisp people being prickly" in context ? [23:42]
mircea_popescu me splitting with everyone's cash because some redditard says things ? [23:42]
mircea_popescu nonsense, that. equally nonsense in both cases. [23:42]
* ben_vulpes is a monkey with tools beyond his sophisticaiton [23:43]
mircea_popescu you can't become prickly just because people are idiots. it's giving idiots too much say. [23:43]
asciilifeform they are 'prickly' in the sense that their only contact with a world outside their own is redditards knocking on the door to 'teach how the world is' [23:43]
mircea_popescu perhaps. [23:43]
decimation the next step is to become a hermit in the taiga I guess [23:44]
asciilifeform [23:44]
assbot Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science [23:44]
asciilifeform hermit in taiga : [23:44]
asciilifeform !s perelman mode [23:44]
assbot 3 results for 'perelman mode' : [23:44]
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ben_vulpes whoa abcl runs on the jvm [23:46]
ben_vulpes my ignorance knows no bounds [23:47]
mircea_popescu hence boundless ignorance ? that ignorance ignorant even of bounds ? [23:47]
ben_vulpes i know not what i know not [23:48]
ben_vulpes alternatively, i know i know naught [23:48]
decimation re: model being horeshit: "Because, we know that with theoretical cherry picking someone can come up with a set of assumptions that produces a result that may logically follow from those assumptions, but if the assumptions really don't have much traction in the real world, that result really doesn't have much to say about what we are actually looking at. " << from my econtalk link above [23:49]
mircea_popescu decimation it's worse than that! consider : you could pick arbitrary assumptions and arbitrary data sets so as to theoretically and practically justify a particular theory sufficiently so that it gives the desired results for a FINITE time interval, calculated to exceed the probable testing period. [23:51]
mircea_popescu this is how us kids learn for exams, for instance. [23:51]
mircea_popescu fraud through and through, and yet. [23:51]
mircea_popescu proponents of such tailored "knowledge" will understandably fight tooth and nail with some classes of rational approach, such as the people who use the counterexample effectually (aka, trolls) [23:52]
mircea_popescu amusingly enough, for the capacities of the basic rational agent, they'd seem to have a point, too! [23:52]
decimation moriarty earlier said that such an attitude is 'simplistic' - after all, how can these people (economists, programmers, students) have so many papers and have said nothing? [23:53]
* bitstein has quit (Quit: bitstein) [23:53]
mircea_popescu i would suggest the volume in and of itself is proof they say nothing. [23:54]
asciilifeform this relates directly to certain circles seen as 'prickly' [23:56]
asciilifeform it comes mainly from not wishing to dissolve in the sea. [23:57]
asciilifeform not everyone is itching to be part of some gigantic 'everyone' who will 'do things their way' [23:57]
asciilifeform naggum wrote that the worst thing that could possibly happen to common lisp is if it became 'mainstream' and popular. [23:58]
mircea_popescu but that is a much more self aware, and effectually applied, violence than mere prickliness. [23:58]
mircea_popescu it's being an ashole deliberately and oppressing selected idiots wilfully. [23:58]
mircea_popescu maybe wrongly, but the term to me suggested involuntary and incontinence. which is what the entire observation was based on, after all : [23:59]
mircea_popescu if it's voluntary, if the prickly is passive, then the other party is active, and to the active goes the agency. [23:59]
mircea_popescu too much agency for a monkey. [23:59]
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