Forum logs for 18 May 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
justJanne A local server you can put in your own data center. It can operate even separate from the web. [00:00]
decimation justJanne: did you see any ntp reflection traffic? [00:00]
midnightmagic adlai: http://carnal0wnage.attackresearch.com/2015/05/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html [00:00]
justJanne decimation: I'm on phone right now, but as the latency didn't go up, doesn't seem so. Or at least nothing noticeable. [00:00]
* adlai notices that assbot doesn't insert titles anymore... midnightmagic linked "Lets Call Stunt Hacking What it is, Media Whoring", an apt topic for today [00:01]
mircea_popescu midnightmagic not bad, but it lost me at the "well credentialed" etc bs. [00:02]
mircea_popescu adlai i suspec assbot is a little tired. [00:02]
* adlai taps it, gently [00:02]
justJanne Tbh, security of embedded systems could be better. [00:02]
justJanne In general embedded systems could be better. [00:03]
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mircea_popescu decimation honestly, i suspect the guy complaining on trilema was either trying to stir up shit or else working on meanwhile inacurate history. seems the ddos guy is gone. [00:03]
adlai was this some fix-in-anger to the http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-04-2015#1115842 conundrum? [00:03]
assbot Logged on 29-04-2015 14:33:49; davout: mircea_popescu kakobrekla mebbe make scoopbot_revived not mention the title and let assbot handle it? [00:03]
* justJanne thinks back to the Toyota issue [00:03]
* badon_ is now known as badon [00:03]
decimation mircea_popescu: yeah, in fact I suspect "the lady doth protest too much" [00:03]
mircea_popescu adlai iirc that measure didn't pass. [00:03]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135631 << lol win. [00:04]
assbot Logged on 17-05-2015 23:11:27; williamdunne: >Forget MPEX. The best/most reliable stock exchange is, by far, BTCT.CO. [00:04]
midnightmagic mircea_popescu: The old Aurora attacks are an excellent example of the perversion of the idea of 'well-credentialed'. The people they had making comments about the SCM systems involved in that attack and the shoddy investigations going on were.. extreme. [00:04]
mircea_popescu yeah. if i don't happen to know someone willing to vouch, you can have credentials coming out of your ears, i just see "idiot" in thick font. which is basically wot-ness. [00:05]
midnightmagic I personally watched the responses internal to some of the companies involved and observed the evolution of the document they presented to the public. The people on whose opinions some of those documents were based were bullshit artists, borderline pathological, of the worst order. [00:05]
midnightmagic mircea_popescu: Everything it seems, comes down to human trust evaluation. [00:06]
* btcg (~btcg@199.241.147.35) has joined #bitcoin-assets [00:06]
midnightmagic most of the time. [00:06]
justJanne Embedded systems are still often built by programmers, not by engineers. [00:06]
mircea_popescu worst part being that it's usually "corporate [in]culture" that takes marginal yet ambitious intellects and molds them to this shit. [00:06]
decimation !up btcg [00:06]
mircea_popescu !up btcg [00:06]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [00:06]
-assbot- You voiced btcg for another 30 minutes. [00:06]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [00:06]
btcg thanks [00:06]
mircea_popescu aha. who're you ? [00:07]
decimation btcg: what brings you here? [00:07]
btcg to talk about interesting topics :) [00:07]
btcg do i need to auth with assbot for voice perm? [00:07]
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mircea_popescu and get rated, yes. [00:08]
decimation btcg http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [00:08]
decimation was assbot's link title functionality kaput? [00:08]
btcg i didn't see anything [00:09]
* ChanServ removes voice from btcg [00:09]
williamdunne wut? [00:09]
mircea_popescu three minute half hour ? [00:09]
mircea_popescu !up btcg [00:09]
-assbot- You voiced btcg for another 30 minutes. [00:09]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [00:09]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla hey, is something the matter with assbot ? [00:09]
BingoBoingo prolly just needs to fart [00:10]
williamdunne btcg did you dieded? [00:11]
btcg no i am here [00:13]
williamdunne To get perma voice you need to be in assbots L2 - so you need a rating from a lord [00:14]
williamdunne So someone on the send section here: http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot [00:14]
midnightmagic mircea_popescu: Mediocrity is a natural result of psychopathic and sociopathic inroads. The moment upper management ceases to directly observe their employees, the result is the most convincing-sounding people's voices become the most relied-on. Convincing-sounding is not the same as accurate/informed. [00:14]
decimation midnightmagic: convincing-sounding is pretty much the going standard in the english speaking world [00:18]
midnightmagic -- which directly resulted in the erroneous and I would say, outright lying in the Aurora analyses. None of the conjecture that the public could see (because that's what the fuck it was) needed to ever be tested or 'pay rent' in terms of accuracy. [00:19]
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btcg !register F4DE 6DF4 EB8B A2DA AD8D 14A5 B004 5BC9 02AC 1559 [00:20]
assbot That does not seem to be a valid fingerprint. [00:20]
* referredbyloper has quit (Client Quit) [00:20]
williamdunne no spaces [00:20]
btcg !register F4DE6DF4EB8BA2DAAD8D14A5B0045BC902AC1559 [00:21]
assbot Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: F4DE6DF4EB8BA2DAAD8D14A5B0045BC902AC1559. This may take a few moments. [00:21]
assbot Key 02AC1559 / "boxsk " successfully imported. [00:21]
assbot Registration successful. [00:21]
btcg now i need a vote? [00:22]
decimation is tutanota.io even valid? [00:23]
btcg oh should be .com [00:23]
btcg sorry, can i reset my key [00:24]
danielpbarron >> My aim is to fight mass surveillance. I write code to fight for our human right to privacy. I want to create a cloud service which is so easy to use and so secure that it locks out all the spies. We really deserve it. << lol [00:24]
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decimation btcg: sure, just make a new one [00:25]
danielpbarron !up joshbuddy [00:27]
* assbot gives voice to joshbuddy [00:27]
justJanne danielpbarron: that sounds like Kim Schmitz [00:27]
justJanne Sorry, he's known outside of DE as Kim DotCom [00:27]
joshbuddy danielpbarron: where was that quote from? [00:28]
joshbuddy also, thanks for voice [00:28]
danielpbarron it's Matthias https://archive.is/8ovft#selection-839.1-839.218 [00:28]
decimation btcg: do you use this tutanota app? [00:28]
btcg !register CDA330208F2249841291524C65A7427639BAE3AB [00:29]
assbot Nick btcg is already taken. [00:29]
btcg i use their webmail mostly [00:30]
danielpbarron !h [00:30]
assbot http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot [00:30]
decimation btcg: heh sucks I'm not sure if you can unregister [00:30]
danielpbarron !changekey [00:30]
assbot You need to specify your new key fingerprint. [00:30]
decimation yeah auth with assbot and use that ^ [00:31]
btcg !changekey CDA330208F2249841291524C65A7427639BAE3AB [00:31]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/90180887373ba656 [00:31]
btcg tuta is nice at least encrypts all email [00:32]
danielpbarron i can do that with gmail + gnupg [00:32]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39419 @ 0.00028808 = 11.3558 BTC [+] {2} [00:33]
decimation yeah how is something 'encrypted' on a website that isn't under your control? [00:33]
justJanne I can do that with Thunderbird, K9 and GnuPG. [00:34]
BingoBoingo K9? You trust private keys on mobile devices? [00:36]
danielpbarron the point being, your email client shouldn't have anything to do with your encryption [00:36]
decimation or mail storage [00:36]
justJanne BingoBoingo: Yes — remember, I use no Google services, and modified half of the apps on my phone myself. [00:37]
* assbot removes voice from btcg [00:40]
decimation justJanne: yeah but have you examined your phone's firmware? [00:40]
BingoBoingo And hardware [00:41]
williamdunne !up btcg [00:41]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [00:41]
btcg thanks william [00:41]
mike_c mircea_popescu: you should be able to drop this link in as the source of the iframe: http://www.btcalpha.com/bb_frame.html?height=90&ref=1GiSXgAhjqYvAB17JjXX8YCqNCizCjLJgp [00:42]
williamdunne v.welcome [00:42]
williamdunne !gettrust assbot btcg [00:43]
assbot Trust relationship from user assbot to user btcg: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=btcg | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/btcg/ [00:43]
williamdunne !gettrust assbot williamdunne [00:43]
assbot Trust relationship from user assbot to user williamdunne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 3 via 3 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=williamdunne | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/williamdunne/ [00:43]
justJanne decimation: BingoBoingo: compiled from source myself every month. [00:43]
justJanne And monitoring all networked IO. [00:43]
mike_c ;;later tell mircea_popescu: ad ready, see log 5 lines up [00:43]
gribble The operation succeeded. [00:43]
mats how about your baseband fw? [00:43]
BingoBoingo ^ [00:44]
williamdunne mats: How about you hard disk controller? [00:44]
mats i can dump it, can you? [00:45]
justJanne The ISP I'm using was started by a few people from the CCC, so from that side not too high of a risk. [00:45]
justJanne And I'd like to dump the firmware, but that would violate copyright. [00:45]
mats fwiw i use a smartphone too, the point being rammed here is that you don't really have an expectation of security. [00:46]
mats layer accordingly. [00:46]
williamdunne ;;seen samouraiwallet [00:47]
gribble samouraiwallet was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 week, 2 days, 3 hours, 14 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: cool system. tying in wot with irc +v [00:47]
danielpbarron btcg, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136035 << you need to decrypt this with your first key, and send the result back as !v [decrypted string] [00:51]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 03:27:04; assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/90180887373ba656 [00:51]
danielpbarron there is no "auth with assbot" and all actions come with a OTP [00:51]
btcg ah ok, well 404 [00:52]
williamdunne btcg: Easiest way is wget -O - URL | gpg -d [00:52]
danielpbarron expired. try again [00:52]
williamdunne Automate using this [00:53]
williamdunne http://bitstein.org/blog/bash-function-for-assbot-authentication/ [00:53]
danielpbarron williamdunne, that means you're decrypting on the same machine that has internet? [00:53]
williamdunne Yes, I'm a peasant that does that [00:53]
miaviator Michail1 midnightmagic mike_c MiningBuddy mircea_popescu mius mixdio_ [00:53]
miaviator Michail1 midnightmagic mike_c MiningBuddy mircea_popescu mius mixdio_ [00:53]
mircea_popescu mike_c win [00:53]
btcg !changekey CDA330208F2249841291524C65A7427639BAE3AB [00:53]
williamdunne I'll eventually create another key offline which I'll use as a master or summin [00:53]
williamdunne In case of breach [00:53]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5844d86bdf7b9395 [00:54]
williamdunne Stick authentication of it in deedbot or summin [00:54]
mircea_popescu mike_c will be going up shortly, guy's online and all. [00:54]
cazalla lol those comments always remind me of this scene https://youtu.be/n16uBK71miQ?t=1m [00:54]
mircea_popescu midnightmagic i have my doubts about how all that *pathic stuff works. kinda weaponized terminology, like "heretic"/"disbeliever" in middle ages. [00:55]
cazalla what sorta person are you mircea_popescu terrorizing those poor sods on fetlife [00:55]
btcg !v assbot:btcg.changekey.cda330208f2249841291524c65a7427639bae3ab:6448f8043a7a44284ff9e38a2c9c7c34ffb455f01d9c8618ec07770e996d43a9 [00:56]
assbot Key 39BAE3AB / "boxsk " successfully imported. [00:56]
assbot New key fingerprint for btcg is: CDA330208F2249841291524C65A7427639BAE3AB [00:56]
mircea_popescu cazalla the masochist and the terrorist. should be a book. [00:56]
* assbot removes voice from joshbuddy [00:57]
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BingoBoingo !up dandelany [00:57]
* assbot gives voice to dandelany [00:57]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo: Yes — remember, I use no Google services, and modified half of the apps on my phone myself. << o.O what are you, like a hacker ??? [00:58]
justJanne A CompSci student. [00:58]
mircea_popescu you gotta appreciate, a compsci student in the us is a guy that's too autistic to deal drugs. [00:59]
mircea_popescu otherwise about as literate. [00:59]
mircea_popescu !up btcg [00:59]
-assbot- You voiced btcg for another 30 minutes. [00:59]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [00:59]
justJanne Nah, they'd fail Math101 here. [00:59]
mircea_popescu iirc math101 is no longer with numbers [00:59]
justJanne Without that you can't progress in CompSci. [00:59]
mircea_popescu they were racist. [00:59]
justJanne And math101 is helpful here, about 90% fail that class. [00:59]
justJanne Helps keep the study free from scriptkiddies. [01:00]
btcg ty mircea_popescu [01:00]
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justJanne And, tbh, math101 at university isn't supposed to work with numbers. Math 101 is set theory, logic, lists, trees, functions, relations, sur/in/bijectivity, upper and lower bounds, complexity, etc. [01:02]
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mircea_popescu i think alf might fall in love. [01:02]
BingoBoingo justJanne: At my school those topics were all in 300 series classes. [01:02]
mircea_popescu yeah, but you went to a good school. [01:03]
BingoBoingo lol [01:03]
justJanne Right now I'm taking second semester classes, last week homework was doing RSA on paper. [01:03]
justJanne In math [01:03]
mircea_popescu i have my doubts if you could get a decent definition of the notion of number from one in ten us graduates. [01:03]
justJanne Using only 16-bit Keys, cause everything else would be overkill. [01:04]
BingoBoingo In the calculus series classes test questions were taken from the homework, which was conducive to drinking whiskey before tests. [01:04]
justJanne For RSA you obviously need groups, spaces, bodies, rings, etc. [01:05]
mircea_popescu or rote. [01:05]
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justJanne Bbl. [01:05]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135682 << because the last mile MUST be decentralized [01:12]
assbot Logged on 17-05-2015 23:34:39; williamdunne: Read the article, and I still don't see how that makes it bad for the last mile [01:12]
mircea_popescu that's the entire fucking point. [01:12]
mircea_popescu having a central (marketplace = central) for it is about as stupid as fire extinguishers loaded with gasoline. [01:12]
BingoBoingo On standby for errors http://qntra.net/2015/05/weak-4096-bit-rsa-key-in-strong-set-factored-more-factored-keys-follow/ [01:14]
mircea_popescu it all stems from a very funamental confusion as to what things are andwhat technology can do. the idea being that technology = magic, and so it can change the nature of things. take marketplaces, which are by nature centralizing, and magic them into being decentralising. meanwhile irl, technology works to increase quantitatively, not to alter qualitatively. [01:14]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135686 << first=best only if(only) [01:15]
assbot Logged on 17-05-2015 23:39:53; pete_dushenski: williamdunne i really have nfi what the first trade was. if you say it's weed, we'll go with that, but that doesn't mean that first=best [01:15]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135696 << maybe they could make them also fly, i'd donate. [01:16]
assbot Logged on 17-05-2015 23:41:43; williamdunne: Disagree with the cause, but pretty cool project IMIO [01:16]
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BingoBoingo !up btcg [01:20]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [01:20]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135741 << check it out, jdif > 9000! [01:29]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 00:14:21; ben_vulpes: trying out a new fried chicken joint [01:29]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135769 << what, pray tell, is a ticky tacky. [01:31]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 00:38:24; pete_dushenski: "solidarity forever", "ticky tacky houses", etc. [01:31]
mircea_popescu something to do with bare adolescentine breasts, one would hope, for the sake of everyone's sanity ? [01:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22750 @ 0.00028902 = 6.5752 BTC [+] {2} [01:32]
danielpbarron https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUoXtddNPAM <- ticky tacky [01:34]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135802 << is that FURRY road ? [01:34]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 00:58:08; mats: http://www.metacritic.com/movie/mad-max-fury-road << surprised metacritic treats it so well [01:35]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron i'm not closer to comprehension [01:36]
mircea_popescu but she's REALLY bad. i mean sweet singer of michigan level bad. [01:37]
danielpbarron I think it's like this -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-05-2015#1129306 [01:38]
assbot Logged on 12-05-2015 22:05:41; mircea_popescu: "here i sit in a prefab vinyl siding plebhousing unit, burning a 50 dollar bill" ? [01:38]
mircea_popescu ah ic. [01:38]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135840 << learned to maff in kindergarten, check (c3 folks know what this is about lolk) ; reverse-hacked leet online haxxors, exposed irc chatroom, check. alfie baby... [01:40]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 01:35:23; justJanne: Sometimes when I get DDoSd I run nmap against the attacking servers, one time I found a small IRC server with only one channel, in which were 256 clients all with just a number as name, and one other client sending specific commands every few minutes [01:40]
asciilifeform l0lwut [01:42]
asciilifeform 256 clients all with just a number as name... << SOP. one (at least formerly common) botkit which did this was 'athena.' many others likewise. [01:43]
asciilifeform barbaric but reasonably resilient (herder would hardcode several boxes to act as irc servers, several controlled by himself normally and a few reasonably lax public irctrons) [01:44]
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asciilifeform an example of this animal: http://www.trojanbotnet.com/2014/04/botnet-irc-silly-bot-16-c-irc-bot-new.html [01:45]
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asciilifeform (just google 'slowloris' - for some reason ddos command was always given this name) [01:45]
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asciilifeform https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9562170 << mildly interesting [01:51]
asciilifeform 'During that time, attackers were able to monitor the activities of anyone using the kernel.org servers known as Hera and Odin1, as well as personal computers belonging to senior Linux developer H. Peter Anvin. The self-injecting rootkit known as Phalanx had access to a wealth of sensitive data, possibly including private keys used to sign and decrypt e-mails and remotely log in to servers. A follow-up advisory a few weeks lat [01:51]
asciilifeform er opened the possibility that still other developers may have fallen prey to the attackers.' [01:51]
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BingoBoingo https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9562918 [02:02]
* asciilifeform caught up with log, links, overwhelmed by sheer retardation of the pg wank circus, maxxed out dosimeter [02:02]
BingoBoingo Probably for the best [02:07]
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asciilifeform pete_dushenski: the animals in the photo at bottom of your latest article look like guinea pigs [02:14]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38800 @ 0.0002857 = 11.0852 BTC [-] {3} [02:33]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30650 @ 0.00027879 = 8.5449 BTC [-] {3} [02:47]
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asciilifeform http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/18/big_rsa_keys_are_vulnerable_says_researcher << more lulz [03:03]
asciilifeform the mis-spellings are a deliberate trollage, or what. [03:03]
asciilifeform 'phunctor' ?! [03:03]
BingoBoingo lolocoaster [03:04]
asciilifeform anyone with an account (yes, they require one even for 'anonymous' comments) is welcome to post one. [03:05]
kakobrekla kanzure kdomanski Keefe knotwork kushed kuzetsa kyuupichan [03:06]
asciilifeform https://archive.is/Bp6Wh << cached [03:09]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform notice that idiots are doing their pressing. "If I wanted to poison HPA with a fake key, why would I create a degenerate one? A fake key with strong factors would have gone unnoticed, at least by this analysis" [03:09]
mircea_popescu right, because poisoning hpa was the idea, not poisoning others. [03:09]
mircea_popescu team meade scores another hit on their imaginary, wildly irrelevant scoreboard. for which they get paid. with tax dollars. by idiots. [03:09]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform not deliberate trolalge, deliberate damage control. can't google misspelled terms [03:10]
asciilifeform ahahahahaha [03:10]
asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1504 << updated [03:10]
mircea_popescu again. team meade scores another hit on their imaginary, wildly irrelevant scoreboard. [03:10]
mats this is badly written [03:11]
mats as though no editor was involved at all [03:11]
asciilifeform mats: haste - makes waste [03:11]
asciilifeform or how'd it go [03:11]
mircea_popescu ‘Holy shit, they broke RSA!’ or ‘This is false advertising, they didn’t really do anything!’ imbeciles, << no but it's THE CONTROVERSY [03:11]
mircea_popescu aaaaand fort meade scoressssss again!111 on their ... [03:11]
mats 'phunctor', thins instead of things, using 'Loper-OS' and 'Loper-os', shitloads of passive tense sentences... [03:13]
asciilifeform they must employ the residents of a home for the profoundly retarded [03:13]
asciilifeform is the inescapable conclusion. [03:13]
mats er, passive voice. [03:13]
asciilifeform for anyone still awake, i'm presently wondering re: how the rotten keys behave in autoverifier scripts (debian ? etc) [03:16]
asciilifeform worth considering - where are they likely to come into play (as fetched from sks) [03:17]
mircea_popescu hmm, anyone has a ready link to the discussion of the reddit deleting the blockchain thing because they had so much fucking consensus it ended up imploding under their feet ? [03:17]
mircea_popescu worth a test. [03:17]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a screenshot image, linked in a trilema article [03:21]
asciilifeform can't recall presently, where. [03:22]
mircea_popescu ah was trilema huh. brb [03:22]
BingoBoingo http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/36c3ac/weak_4096_bit_rsa_key_in_strong_set_factored_more/ [03:23]
mircea_popescu and in the daily 8cha lulz, https://8ch.net/btc/res/33.html#198 [03:24]
asciilifeform what even. [03:26]
mircea_popescu i dunno but it seems serious. [03:26]
mircea_popescu halp halp i've been lyfthreatenet across hte internets [03:26]
mircea_popescu this constitutes harassment in zoe quinn degree. i now must have my own oprah show. [03:26]
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asciilifeform http://cryptome.org/2015/05/eg-gs.pdf << unrelated l0ltr0n [03:40]
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asciilifeform http://dpaste.com/167XKEJ#wrap << text [03:42]
mircea_popescu !up joshbuddy [03:43]
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mircea_popescu in other news, the next batch of usg dept of internet outsourcers, to replace the current batch of third worlders : http://i.imgur.com/9EG2jYA.gifv [03:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62159 @ 0.00027873 = 17.3256 BTC [-] {2} [03:55]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48250 @ 0.00027944 = 13.483 BTC [+] [04:18]
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mircea_popescu !up zlrth [04:54]
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BingoBoingo !up referredbyloper [05:07]
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mircea_popescu !up LC^ [05:13]
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mircea_popescu LC^ go ahead ? [05:14]
LC^ mircea_popescu: Hi. Can we chat privately? [05:15]
mircea_popescu i don't know you, so no. [05:15]
LC^ I'm a journalist. I shared my identity via privmsg. [05:17]
mircea_popescu that's fine, but it doesn't help. [05:17]
mircea_popescu the right move would be to get in the wot, cultivate your presence here afterr which next time you may have an angle. [05:17]
mircea_popescu at the moment, you do not. [05:18]
LC^ I want to write an article about your Phuctor-related findings. [05:21]
mircea_popescu cool. [05:21]
BingoBoingo LC^: You may also want to hang around for when Stan wakes up [05:22]
LC^ so wanted to get your opinion on the issues that have been raised, mainly that the first key was not signed by the owner so was likely added by someone else, with or without malicious intent. [05:22]
LC^ and whether the other keys that have been factored are similar [05:23]
LC^ or are there indications that they've been generated by a broken generator [05:23]
LC^ I guess that is the main problem you're trying to highlight, correct? that some generators might be broken and generate weak keys [05:24]
mircea_popescu there is at least one key with a p over nine digits. [05:24]
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mircea_popescu there are all sorts of classes of broken keys, which we're obviously still sorting through. [05:25]
mircea_popescu that aside, the question of how exactly weak keys came to be, and what are they doing there and so on and so forth is not nearly as uninteresting as the usg agency would like to make it. [05:25]
LC^ are you suggesting that some software was intentionally sabotaged to produce weak keys? [05:27]
mircea_popescu i am plainly saying that while the weak keys incontrovertibly exist, it's unclear why they exist. someone put the effort into making them, which is not exactly trivial. [05:27]
LC^ OK, but can they actually be used? some argued that the weak key supposedly belonging to hpa can't be used to decrypt emails or other data encrypting by him because it was not signed by his real key [05:30]
LC^ can it be used for impersonation? [05:31]
mircea_popescu this is factually correct. it is also not the whole story. [05:31]
LC^ OK, what is the whole story? [05:31]
mircea_popescu one of the more interesting constructions as to the possible intended uses is, a tandem arrangement. it would work like so : [05:31]
LC^ I'm just trying to understand what the risk is here and why would someone create such keys, intentionally [05:31]
mircea_popescu suppose someone needs to talk to hpa - either to verify his signature or to send him encrypted communications. [05:32]
LC^ ok.. [05:32]
mircea_popescu with a correctly working pgp implementation, the user connects ot a sks server, discards the wrong key and proceeds as expected. [05:32]
mircea_popescu if however his pgp implementation is compromised in a specific way, the wrong key on the server may very well be the magic packet, causing it to behave in an unexpected - and not otherwise detectable - manner. [05:32]
mircea_popescu such as, encrypt to it, or email the NSA, or whatever else. [05:33]
mircea_popescu this sort of thing (the so called "fail to pass" testing) is the exact sort of stuff we've seen from the nsa to date, and so it would mesh with that experience. [05:33]
LC^ I see, so the key would serve as an exploit of sorts or a trigger [05:33]
mircea_popescu but it is a theory - until someone produces such a diddled implementation it stays a theory. [05:33]
mircea_popescu LC^ essentially. [05:33]
mircea_popescu in any case, the idea that hpa is the target of that attack - if indeed it is an attack - are at best naive and at worst disinfo. [05:34]
mircea_popescu clearly people looking at/for him would be the target, if anything. [05:34]
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mircea_popescu this, of course, is not the only mechanism that would allow such a key to exist. nevertheless, alternative explanations border on the risible. [05:35]
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LC^ particularly people looking to send him highly confidential info that would need to be encrypted [05:35]
mircea_popescu especially amusingm, the "key was damaged in transit" one. people p2p HD movies all day, nobody's seen this. gpg data moves around as archives - try flipping a byte in an archive see if you can stil lget the content. etc. [05:35]
mircea_popescu LC^ yes. [05:36]
mircea_popescu understand, opsec is extremely weak all over. including among supposedly experienced hackers. so, a simple scenario : guy with owned userland gpg sends secret info to hpa, it is magically encrypted to wrong key, email sniffed en route, secret is now known, but only to the people knowing what to look for. hpa responds with something like bad key, guy re-encrypts it and resends it. [05:37]
mircea_popescu he never knows he's been compromised. [05:37]
mircea_popescu nobody keeps track of "mysterious" errors etc. [05:37]
LC^ there are parts in some archive formats you can modify and the archive will still work, though year I understand your point, the suggested theory of damaged in transit would suggest random damaging not controlled modification [05:39]
mircea_popescu how often have you moved a file across the tubes ? how often did it have a magically changed byte ? [05:39]
mircea_popescu because i did lots of the former and the latter never occured. [05:40]
LC^ OK, what about the other keys? Are they similar to hpa's key? in the sense that they've been attached to other keys, but lack the proper signature? [05:40]
mircea_popescu there are other people matching exactly hpa's profile (high value foss target) with keys apparently added in the same manner. not too many. [05:40]
mircea_popescu there are also other types. [05:40]
LC^ how many keys have you found so far? do you plan to disclose the owners of the other keys that are similar to hpa's? it doesn't seem to be a big risk there for the owners [05:42]
* adlai thinks a better question could be, "just quite how little human and computer labor did this experiment take?" [05:43]
mircea_popescu there's been a total of three pairs, so six total keys to date. i have little doubt that as the program progresses through the list, more will be found. generally, the idea is to discuss this with the owners and them only. [05:43]
mircea_popescu the case of hpa was exceptional because at the time the lightning struck (and understand just how unlikely the event we had on our hands this morning was), a call had to be made. [05:44]
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mircea_popescu in that particular circumstance, where an outside but present chance existed that the box was compromised itself. [05:44]
mircea_popescu !up LC^ [05:44]
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mircea_popescu we might consider publishing the "harmless" keys, but for one thing i am not altogether convinced they're so harmless, and for another, much more interesting would be a hunt for diddled php implementations. [05:45]
mircea_popescu now THAT would be something if found. [05:45]
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LC^ have you attempted to notify the owners yet and have you had any responses from them? [05:46]
mircea_popescu adlai i would guess something between 50 and 100 BTC's worth of S.NSA engineer's time, and maybe a few months-box worth of hardware. [05:46]
mircea_popescu LC^ yes and no. [05:46]
mircea_popescu not terribly costly, considering what "VC" firms spend and what they get for it. [05:47]
LC^ so do you expect your findings to inspire such a hunt? [05:48]
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mircea_popescu it's already underway. but, the more the merrier. this is the sort of thing where one can make a difference. [05:48]
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mircea_popescu clicking on cat pics, and derping about what zoe whoever said about imaginary feminist issues is a waste of one's youth. [05:48]
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mircea_popescu this however... this is something where raising awareness actually does something. [05:49]
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mircea_popescu ehh, diddled php implementations << obviously i mean pgp not php. [05:52]
mircea_popescu who the hell came up with the idea of putting these together even ;/ [05:53]
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mircea_popescu lol [05:53]
mircea_popescu !up wiz [05:53]
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LC^ mircea_popescu: thx for answering my questions so far. I have to jump on a call, but if I decide to go ahead with an article on this and have additional questions I'll look for you around here. [05:56]
mircea_popescu sure. [05:56]
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mircea_popescu http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/South_Vietnam_Map.jpg << such a lulzy map. [06:05]
mircea_popescu pro tip : the north won. [06:05]
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mircea_popescu mats http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Girl_volunteers_of_the_People's_Self-Defense_Force_of_Kien_Dien%2C_a_hamlet_of_Ben_Cat_district_50_kilometers_north_of_Sai_-_NARA_-_541865.tif/lossy-page1-250px-Girl_volunteers_of_the_People's_Self-Defense_Force_of_Kien_Dien%2C_a_hamlet_of_Ben_Cat_district_50_kilometers_north_of_Sai_-_NARA_-_541865.tif.jpg << check out that grip. [06:21]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39500 @ 0.00028997 = 11.4538 BTC [+] [06:38]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37350 @ 0.00028967 = 10.8192 BTC [-] [06:44]
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mircea_popescu !up Mugge [06:59]
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kakobrekla http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135996 < hm ? [07:00]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 03:05:47; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey, is something the matter with assbot ? [07:00]
mircea_popescu was kinda slow/suffering for a while. seems ok now. [07:00]
mircea_popescu http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/ [07:01]
kakobrekla thats freenodes issue [07:01]
mircea_popescu does it not do titles anymore ? [07:01]
kakobrekla titels are depending on log1 iirc [07:01]
mircea_popescu oh that still dead ? [07:03]
kakobrekla apparently [07:04]
mircea_popescu dja need me to reset pw or something there ? [07:04]
kakobrekla dunno it was sorta almost working until you started to fiddle with varnish [07:05]
kakobrekla since then nfi [07:05]
kakobrekla brb [07:06]
mircea_popescu sorry! [07:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30700 @ 0.00028997 = 8.9021 BTC [+] [07:23]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00028997 = 5.5674 BTC [+] [07:46]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17820 @ 0.00028997 = 5.1673 BTC [+] [07:52]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-02-2015#1035777 << this is one for kakobrekla [08:09]
assbot Logged on 28-02-2015 01:55:22; cazalla: so i made a bitbet under the influence and couldn't fund it until later, i assume 0 conf address listed for it in /propositions/ is the address of which i need to fund? [08:09]
cazalla he answered it from memory but why necro that? [08:10]
kakobrekla click on the 0conf amount [08:10]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-02-2015#1035818 << meet the slavegirls sometime. [08:10]
assbot Logged on 28-02-2015 02:20:09; trinque: flushing with fear on command is to my knowledge not possible [08:10]
mircea_popescu cazalla shit i was doing a very old log lol. [08:11]
mircea_popescu sorry. [08:11]
mircea_popescu http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/who-rooted-kernel-org-servers-two-years-ago-how-did-it-happen-and-why/ [08:16]
mircea_popescu "More than two years after unknown hackers gained unfettered access over multiple computers used to maintain and distribute the Linux operating system kernel, officials still haven't released a promised autopsy about what happened." [08:17]
mircea_popescu case exactly mirrored by freenode : about a year after they lost at least one server to what appeared like quite the nsa, and promising a full investigation, nothing's been released. [08:17]
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mircea_popescu !up deface [08:31]
-assbot- You voiced deface for 30 minutes. [08:31]
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mircea_popescu mike_c https://8ch.net/btc/index.html << it's live. [08:31]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135914 << i dun recall who put it in, mebbe davout but at any rate from what i've seen they couldn't get consensus behind the "inaccurate title" theory, or w/e it's called there. so that didn't werk. [08:40]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 02:45:11; decimation: Note that your headline was dinged for being inaccurate, while this guy's blog is more inaccurate by his own admission [08:40]
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mircea_popescu cazalla i find from 8chan that you suck. link related https://8ch.net/btc/res/33.html#212 [09:05]
cazalla bwahaha [09:05]
cazalla what can i say other than he's right.. 9/10 aussies i met on 4chan love nothing more than shit posting [09:07]
mircea_popescu ?rate cazalla -2 australian which is bad [09:07]
cazalla r u trying to shit post me back or wot m8 [09:15]
mircea_popescu lol [09:15]
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justJanne Anyone read http://thiébaud.fr/robots.txt.html yet? [09:58]
justJanne I’m downloading all those hidden state.gov documents right now [09:59]
mircea_popescu ahaha good idea [10:01]
mircea_popescu "look in robots.txt for directories that derps inadvertently exposed" [10:01]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46450 @ 0.00028017 = 13.0139 BTC [+] {4} [10:17]
jurov https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/1-bitcoin-community-controls-99-bitcoin-wealth/ but warning, causes brainhurt [10:19]
asciilifeform jurov: i regret to say that i may have been responsible for the first such article. [10:20]
asciilifeform (though it, in turn, used data from a paper, cited therein) [10:21]
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jurov "made me reminisce about the old days of Occupy Wall Street".. like, it was 20 years ago? [10:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5650 @ 0.00028691 = 1.621 BTC [+] [10:37]
asciilifeform jurov: the derpfest in question was so blatantly an organized 'astroturf' affair that it vanished as thoroughly as anything from 20 yrs ago [10:37]
mircea_popescu dude, three year's a lifetime for these ephemerides [10:37]
jurov ye olde tea partie [10:39]
asciilifeform pee partie [10:40]
asciilifeform http://www.securitylab.ru/news/472954.php << disgraceful. even here. [10:45]
asciilifeform motherfuckers. [10:45]
asciilifeform 'phunctor' aha [10:45]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13950 @ 0.00028743 = 4.0096 BTC [+] {2} [10:56]
mats mircea_popescu: terrible trigger discipline [11:00]
mats looks like she has her finger in the well [11:02]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37003 @ 0.00028278 = 10.4637 BTC [-] [11:05]
mats and as an aside the high ready position is inferior [11:09]
asciilifeform mats: good position for folks with terrible trigger discipline ? [11:10]
asciilifeform let'em drill the sky full of holes instead of the fella behind or in front [11:11]
mike_c ads look like they're working (technically at least). we'll see if 8chan'ers have any money. [11:12]
mats their fire will be less accurate in a firefight after a day's patrol due to muscle fatigue [11:14]
mircea_popescu mats she holds it like it's a broom [11:15]
asciilifeform obligatory >>> http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/pdu/17573280/45724/45724_900.jpg [11:16]
mats mircea_popescu: oh, lol [11:16]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [16:12]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com || http://log.bitcoin-assets.com || http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com || http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com [16:12]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [16:12]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [16:12]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [16:13]
mircea_popescu ascii_field sounds great. [16:13]
Apocalyptic ascii_field, i'm still thinking about your "exercice for the reader" from yesterday as to how get $othersmuckQ without at least doing a division for every modulus encountered [16:15]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: if you come up with answer to this, please wake me up [16:15]
Apocalyptic heh, so there is none known to you ? [16:15]
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ascii_field Apocalyptic: not atm. but i'm currently occupied with other things [16:16]
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Apocalyptic oh, I thought you knew the answer and it was a challenge [16:16]
ascii_field l0l [16:16]
Apocalyptic i'm nearly convinced there isn't by now [16:16]
Apocalyptic by the very design of the product [16:16]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27450 @ 0.00027585 = 7.5721 BTC [-] {2} [16:20]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136361 << amusingly , that was for a while romania's warez source. [16:22]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 14:23:20; asciilifeform: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Researchers-Break-RSA-4096-Bit-Keys-481475.shtml << oddly, one fishwrap got the name spelled. [16:22]
ascii_field they had, what was it, crackable 'demos' ? [16:22]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136364 wow. [16:22]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 14:31:30; mats: osprey falls outta the sky, again [16:22]
mircea_popescu ascii_field somfinlikethat [16:22]
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ascii_field mircea_popescu: so in other news one of the keys from last night has a valid sig [16:23]
ascii_field and 2/2 moduli phucked [16:23]
ascii_field 'cosmic rays!!!111!!1' [16:23]
ascii_field didjaknow they can sign [16:24]
mircea_popescu yeah yeah. idiots. [16:24]
mircea_popescu but this is why you want "the internet" to have its time to proffer its reactions. [16:24]
mircea_popescu if you let them "agree" to "the reasonable" "explanation" you can laugh at them later. if you don't, it's gonna be "oh srsly we presented this before stanford" all over again [16:24]
ascii_field betcha they're already working on the necessary 'powerpoint.' [16:25]
mircea_popescu obviously, nobody is going to have to explain to anybody why they lied or anything, but hey. free internet! [16:25]
ascii_field retro-dated. [16:25]
mircea_popescu i don't think they can work this fast. [16:25]
mircea_popescu which is kinda the point. [16:25]
ascii_field in yet other news, one of the invalid-sig keys is a careful reduction of key size by 1 bit, and very interesting pattern of modifications to public N (not one-bit-flip and not from-this-point, but regularly spaced) [16:26]
ascii_field the reduction requires altering a header field [16:26]
ascii_field (if you've memorized rfc2440 by now you know this) [16:27]
ascii_field cosmic rays know how to do this also, we learn [16:27]
ascii_field we should stop settling for small change and take this to the astrophysicists [16:27]
ascii_field they will be happy to learn just how clever cosmic ray is [16:27]
trinque self aware cosmic rays... sounds like greg egan [16:27]
trinque ascii_field: gentoo maintainer says dieharder is too fucked to fix https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531268 [16:28]
deedbot- [Trilema] On how the factored 4096 RSA keys story was handled, and what it means to you. - http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/ [16:28]
mircea_popescu trinque because this is optional now. [16:28]
ascii_field 'unfixable' ahahahahaha [16:28]
trinque yep, lol [16:28]
mircea_popescu "we'll just have a world without diehard. should be fine as long as ux is good" [16:28]
ascii_field how about he's locked in a room and only fed once it runs. [16:29]
ascii_field how about that. [16:29]
mircea_popescu ascii_field well, you know how that goes. "within the constraints". "you can't have this and nsa so this can't be had" [16:29]
trinque I've "fixed" it locally which is to say it builds [16:29]
trinque does sound like the project could use cleanup beyond that [16:29]
trinque but yeah, convenient right? [16:29]
trinque as scoopbot is not back I assume deedbot- is the new guy for that too? [16:30]
mircea_popescu ever since the us got on this kick about retards using things, stuff that's not for retards has been at a disadvantage. [16:30]
ascii_field actively ghettoized and eventually gassed, is more like it [16:30]
mircea_popescu trinque i dunno what you two did there. what did you do ? [16:30]
ascii_field obligatory: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3203922895939197@naggum.net.html [16:30]
trinque mircea_popescu: I noticed scoopbot was absent for a while, and after many complaints just loaded the feeds plugin into tenyks [16:30]
mircea_popescu btw, anyone with a slashdot acct ? plox to dump the above link ? [16:31]
trinque mircea_popescu: I told william I'd turn it off if his was returning, but it hasn't [16:31]
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* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [16:37]
ascii_field ty hanbot. [16:39]
trinque "In closing, for the tl;dr / eli5 / etc crowd : this article is not for you. Go back to doing the dishes, we'll wake you up once you need to buy a new flag." << fucking glorious. [16:40]
mircea_popescu im so sick of this "retards are people too" bullshit by now i can't begin to tell you. [16:40]
mircea_popescu actually that softpedia piece is notbad.jpg [16:41]
mircea_popescu we actually see anything wrong with it even ? [16:41]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20700 @ 0.00027975 = 5.7908 BTC [+] {2} [16:44]
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mircea_popescu "Or perhaps they did that stupid human trick that never fails: If you have excess funds, procreate until you no longer have excess funds, then share the funds equally until you all die." << afaik this was never done in practice, outside of easter island. not that women everywhere didn't endlessly & forever try. but anyway, re the ancient women broken strat discussion, THIS is a fine statement of the problem. [16:45]
davout trinque: yea, cracked me up too [16:46]
davout ben_vulpes: in everyday life you can say "en vélo" and "à vélo", you won't sound retarded either way, the correct way is "à vélo" though, "en voiture", "en avion", "à cheval". depends on whether you're inside or not [16:49]
mircea_popescu depends on whether you're riding it or not. [16:50]
davout e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHjQs6C4UY [16:50]
mircea_popescu how did jonas travel ? a or en ? [16:50]
mircea_popescu a baleine, amirite ? [16:51]
davout en baleine [16:52]
mircea_popescu o srsly ? [16:52]
davout that how i'd say it [16:52]
ascii_field 'It doesn't work when Nadia Heninger goes to sell Phuctor before Stanford - Nadia Heninger doesn't own Phuctor, and the actual owners are very much present and very much capable to bitchslap her into oblivion.' << actually, 'crime pays.' chick gets a phd and cushy sinecure, etc. [16:52]
davout but the more i look into this issue, the murkier it looks [16:52]
mircea_popescu if it pays so well how come you're not there aha. [16:52]
mircea_popescu davout :) you have been blessed by the b-a fairy. [16:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00028346 = 1.7008 BTC [+] [16:53]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: i was drummed out of academia while reasonably young, for the crime of not-giving-a-rat's-arse [16:53]
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davout there seems to be something to waht mircea_popescu's saying wrt to 'riding', but it doesn't look that's the full story, i found another source that says both "en/à vélo" are correct [16:53]
mircea_popescu !up stoon [16:53]
-assbot- You voiced stoon for 30 minutes. [16:53]
* assbot gives voice to stoon [16:53]
davout mircea_popescu: i wish the b-a fairy gave me more money, instead of more hair [16:53]
davout http://www.lefigaro.fr/livres/2011/02/10/03005-20110210ARTFIG00483--cheval-et-en-velo.php [16:54]
mircea_popescu davout i think this is one of those stories of old world privilege meanwhile abandoned because impractical and who gives a shit. just don't make it sur, that's niggerspeak [16:54]
ascii_field davout: b-a fairy only hands out honourable deaths [16:54]
ascii_field to the deserving. [16:54]
mircea_popescu and murk to everyone else. [16:54]
mircea_popescu hence, "murk moar". [16:54]
davout ascii_field: yea, hopefully i end up in decentrally corwdfunded valhalla [16:54]
davout mircea_popescu: re niggerspeak, totally [16:55]
ascii_field http://i.imgur.com/O3F9CF5.jpg << relevant [16:55]
BingoBoingo http://slashdot.org/submission/4440577/the-problem-of-teaching-the-controversy-in-infosec [16:55]
mircea_popescu i notice alf is very chan-oriented these days. picrelated all day from this fellow. [16:55]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo curious how that goes. [16:55]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: i typically get'em from diametric [16:55]
mircea_popescu what's your score yet, three ? [16:55]
mircea_popescu ascii_field what is that even, "fuckhead throne" ? [16:56]
ascii_field aha [16:56]
davout ascii_field: oh god, the chair [16:56]
ascii_field original being, approximately, http://hellogiggles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03/hbo-game-of-thrones-iron-throne-lifesize-replica-03.jpg [16:56]
mircea_popescu hahaha [16:56]
trinque the one with dicks would be more relevant to the show... most plot-oriented softcore porn ever created [16:57]
davout ;;later tell pete_dushenski http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136554 [16:58]
gribble The operation succeeded. [16:58]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 19:45:42; davout: ben_vulpes: in everyday life you can say "en vélo" and "à vélo", you won't sound retarded either way, the correct way is "à vélo" though, "en voiture", "en avion", "à cheval". depends on whether you're inside or not [16:58]
mircea_popescu is game of thrones the one with a dumb bitch that's the hero in spite of not doing anything ? (outside of feelings) [16:58]
mircea_popescu gladiatorial combat something something [16:58]
davout mircea_popescu: it has complex psychology11! [16:59]
trinque mircea_popescu: yep, she's going around freeing teh peoples, torching the previous rulers with dragons [16:59]
mircea_popescu occupy dragonclutch ? [16:59]
mircea_popescu "we are the 1 herp, because percents are a jdif conspiracy" [17:00]
trinque lol [17:00]
trinque total circlejerk character [17:00]
mircea_popescu by now, im not so sure of the mental health of tv watchers anyway. i guess it's prolly best not disturb them. [17:01]
trinque I have a half-baked notion that people in the US like this show because they are aware of 200 years of history, if that, and only of their own dirt [17:01]
mircea_popescu who knows what zombiecalypse lies in wait [17:01]
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mircea_popescu mike_c how's teh traffix mah bruther ? too much ? [17:02]
* assbot gives voice to mike_c [17:04]
mike_c 71k hits [17:04]
mircea_popescu if it needs to be scaled down you say, i scale. [17:05]
mike_c box is still standing. yet another reason I need to move to BISP though. it seems ok for now. [17:05]
mircea_popescu kk [17:05]
BingoBoingo http://www.ajc.com/news/news/atlanta-cops-probe-lewd-appearance-of-obnoxious-bu/nmFNq/ [17:06]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [17:07]
mircea_popescu Shook was on the scene, telling 11Alive’s Duffie Dixon that the image was “highly disturbing, aggravating, obnoxious and illegal.” [17:08]
mircea_popescu cocks ? srsly ? [17:08]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Appears to have been oatse [17:10]
BingoBoingo *goatse [17:10]
mircea_popescu oh oh [17:10]
mircea_popescu aghagaga way to go goatse! [17:10]
davout mircea_popescu: btw [17:13]
davout http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1134563 [17:13]
assbot Logged on 17-05-2015 13:41:39; davout: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://i.imgur.com/g5ci4oK.png <<< the paymium banner [17:13]
davout also pls to X.EUR [17:13]
mircea_popescu ah yes the eur. aite on it. [17:13]
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mircea_popescu davout what is it, paymium.com ? [17:14]
davout yes [17:14]
mircea_popescu davout banner's live. [17:16]
davout nice! ty! [17:17]
mircea_popescu btw copypaste ^ now there's a banner to a respectable exchange in the rotation, people can buy btc there. [17:17]
davout no amerifags though [17:17]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12098 @ 0.0002765 = 3.3451 BTC [-] [17:17]
mircea_popescu ah, is it like us-banned.jpg ? [17:18]
davout yeah, we do europe, technically EEA + CH [17:18]
davout americans are a big no-no [17:18]
davout because fatca [17:18]
mircea_popescu must suck to be one by now. [17:18]
davout so the bitbet banners are generated dynamically from the bets? [17:20]
mircea_popescu ayup. mike_c got some serious magic going there, im impresst. [17:21]
davout it *is* impressive [17:22]
mircea_popescu it all started with kakobrekla 's sane design, which json etc. [17:22]
mircea_popescu but it's a tower of cool to shake the very foundations of "web 2.0" idiocy. [17:22]
mircea_popescu organically grown, too. [17:23]
mike_c thanks! nice things can happen when there is a good foundation to work from. [17:23]
* assbot removes voice from stoon [17:24]
mod6 yeah, good work! [17:26]
mircea_popescu how's huntin' mod6 ? [17:27]
mod6 ah! good :] [17:28]
BingoBoingo Florida and DC Aids capitals of the US http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2015/14_0395.htm [17:29]
mod6 aside from keeping up with the unfolding nosuchlabs work, within 7000 blocks of my next regression benchmark being finished. should have some new charts to look at in 24 hours. [17:29]
mod6 s/regression/performance/ [17:30]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [17:30]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [17:30]
ascii_field 'accidental discharges of firearms' l0l [17:30]
ascii_field 'legal intervention' [17:30]
mod6 And as far as the gentoo stuff goes, I kinda had to put that on hold for a minute. I'm going to finish the rest of that up on real hardware. But to do so, I gotta drive across town and buy a new box. I might wait until after the 1st to continue this front. [17:31]
mircea_popescu why do anons on trilema prefer to name themselves obama-something ? [17:31]
mircea_popescu mod6 i feel you. here's me kinda having to put gentoo on hold for a... minute : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-05-2015#1123691 [17:32]
assbot Logged on 07-05-2015 05:21:17; mircea_popescu: this is unlikely to EVER change. i tried to move it to gentoo but the attempt burned, toppled and sunk into the swamp. [17:32]
mircea_popescu https://8ch.net/btc/res/222.html#226 << holy shit that thing has a face. [17:34]
mod6 mircea_popescu: ahh, yeah. having gone through the gauntlet already on the thing at least a dozen times in aws, and also now having re-read the Gentoo-Handbook, i feel like I'm very close on this. To complete the guide, i wanna test out all of the steps on real hardware so the steps are accurate. I believe it'll entail something like creating a USB boot image, then booting off of that, then creating a stage3 in a chroot, then deploying that to the m [17:40]
trinque ^ sounds sane [17:41]
mod6 and trinque, thanks for all your help :] [17:41]
trinque if you're booting from USB you can make the chroot a mount of the thing's own partitions [17:41]
trinque rather than a copy step; might've been what you meant [17:41]
trinque mod6: no problem! [17:42]
mod6 ah, yeah. that makes sense. [17:42]
mod6 anyway, i have high hopes that some of these steps could even be automated to aliviate the pain of building this by hand. [17:43]
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mircea_popescu !up Ginux [17:47]
-assbot- You voiced Ginux for 30 minutes. [17:47]
* assbot gives voice to Ginux [17:47]
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ben_vulpes trinque: what the actual fuck "not worth maintaining" [17:54]
ben_vulpes forgive the ignorance, but what's wrong with the ebuild from 2 months ago? [17:54]
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trinque ben_vulpes: the actual dieharder code uses glibc internals in a way that used to work, now does not due to as yet undiscovered source of rust, with vague indications that compiling with std=c99 has implications for glibc [17:59]
mircea_popescu he raged at this in logs past few days. [18:00]
mircea_popescu eventually idea was to ulibc [18:00]
trinque mircea_popescu: does seem that we keep encountering the rot of glibc [18:01]
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trinque ben_vulpes: that said a working dieharder can be built with my naive patch listed in that bug report [18:03]
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trinque ben_vulpes: oh and... several weak results from the consumer hardware I have laying around [18:12]
trinque so "not worth maintaining" my ass [18:12]
trinque I'll chew on the thing for a while and see what comes of it [18:13]
* mircea_popescu follows eagerly-er. [18:13]
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asciilifeform !up ascii_field [18:18]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [18:18]
ascii_field trinque: if you are a n00b to dieharder, i must remind you that just about anything looks like 'weak result' [18:19]
trinque total n00b [18:19]
ascii_field it is a comparative, rather than absolute measure [18:19]
mircea_popescu ah good point. mind that merely a failed test is of itself meaningless [18:19]
mircea_popescu you must have a theory as to what exactly would it do before you can actually say a rng was shown weak by dieharder. [18:19]
ascii_field i will also add that, e.g., digits of 'pi', are beautifully entropic per dieharder and most anything else [18:20]
mircea_popescu (if you think about it : an entropy source that always pass tests is by definition not entropic. see last year's amusement with the "guess number" toy alf made) [18:20]
mircea_popescu passes* [18:20]
ascii_field !s fips [18:21]
assbot 8 results for 'fips' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=fips [18:21]
ascii_field ^ related lulz [18:21]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-04-2014#609173 [18:21]
assbot Logged on 08-04-2014 03:16:07; asciilifeform: don't be the schmuck who builds rng which throws away batches of bits that fail some test [18:21]
trinque interesting; I'll consider the dieharder source code a starting point for further research. [18:22]
* trinque afk for a bit [18:22]
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mircea_popescu !up Jautenim [18:27]
-assbot- You voiced Jautenim for 30 minutes. [18:27]
* assbot gives voice to Jautenim [18:27]
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Jautenim thank you mr p [18:28]
mircea_popescu sure. who're you ? [18:29]
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Jautenim lurker at contravex, trilema & the logs for some time now [18:32]
mircea_popescu aha [18:33]
ben_vulpes trinque: i still have no idea how to do a local overlay for a package pulled from portage [18:33]
ben_vulpes naive attempts totally failed [18:33]
justJanne @ascii_field, about pi: No, pi is not a good source of entropy [18:33]
ascii_field justJanne: as if this needed saying [18:33]
ascii_field justJanne: but you will notice that it -passes tests- [18:33]
justJanne LOL [18:33]
ascii_field ergo, utility for battlefield crypto does not reduce to mathematical tests [18:34]
mircea_popescu justJanne the application here is that, if i give you a string of random numbers which unknown to you are the nth digit of pi onwards, you may think you have entropy by "tests". [18:34]
justJanne the issue with pi is that it is a very slow RNG [18:35]
justJanne and not really good. [18:35]
mircea_popescu absolutely 0 good. [18:35]
ascii_field justJanne: nothing to do with 'slow' (baily-borwein-plouffe algo is fast, gives nth digit) [18:35]
mxtm why would pi be an entropy source [18:35]
mxtm it's the same always [18:35]
mxtm just never ending [18:36]
ascii_field but with the fact that once enemy catches on, he will laugh himself to death (this being your only hope) [18:36]
justJanne also true [18:36]
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Jautenim I came to ask what are the rough requirements [18:36]
Apocalyptic it's the same always // what [18:36]
Jautenim for running a 0.5.3.1 node [18:36]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/health/a-way-to-brew-morphine-raises-concerns-over-regulation.html?_r=1 << mega-l0l [18:36]
mxtm Apocalyptic: the nth digit of pi doesn't change [18:37]
mircea_popescu Jautenim atm it's practically running on a pogo, so very low. [18:37]
Apocalyptic it is actually conjectured that pi contains all the possible finite sequences you can think of [18:37]
mxtm yes, but when [18:37]
Apocalyptic mxtm, no shit, why would it change ? [18:37]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: not merely 'pi', but all transcendentals [18:37]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic this is the case for all [18:37]
Apocalyptic ascii_field, of course [18:37]
mircea_popescu god damned. [18:37]
mxtm Apocalyptic: then how would it be an entropy source [18:37]
mxtm if it doesn't change [18:37]
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Apocalyptic mxtm, you read the digits onward... [18:37]
mircea_popescu !up gares [18:38]
-assbot- You voiced gares for 30 minutes. [18:38]
* assbot gives voice to gares [18:38]
mircea_popescu mxtm it's not a REAL entropy source. it's a defined sequence that may be confused for an entropy source, if one's definition of entropy is test based. [18:38]
mircea_popescu read carefully wha was said [18:38]
ben_vulpes Jautenim: not a great deal, i think mod6 ran one in less than 200MB of RAM recently, but that was with asciilifeform's 'orphanage thermonuke' [18:38]
mxtm yeah, that's what i was trying to convey, it's a defined sequence [18:39]
ascii_field 'The yeasts could be locked in secure laboratories, worked on by screened employees. Sharing them with other scientists without government permission could be outlawed.' << what even. [18:39]
* ascii_field falls down [18:39]
Apocalyptic mxtm, Mersenne twister seeded with a strong seed is also a defined sequence [18:40]
Apocalyptic still used as prng [18:40]
mircea_popescu prngs not what we're discussing here tho. [18:40]
Apocalyptic yeah, he seems to argue that since it's deterministic it's no good [18:41]
Apocalyptic but that isn't relevant to the "tests" discussed [18:42]
Jautenim I'm planning to rent a cheap vps and run it more or less full time [18:42]
Jautenim in order to help testing [18:42]
mircea_popescu Jautenim or you could order a pogo and help that effort along ? [18:42]
Jautenim lemme know if I can help [18:42]
mircea_popescu it's like 10bux [18:42]
mircea_popescu !s pogo [18:42]
ascii_field Apocalyptic: the precaution taught in school is that 'prng is bad because enemy might learn the seed.' which is a 'lie of omission' - given the existence of a relation between bit N and bit N+1, enemy may have the means to infer N+1 (and N-1) from N [18:42]
assbot 461 results for 'pogo' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogo [18:42]
mircea_popescu ^ see that. [18:42]
Jautenim mircea_popescu can they be ordered from teh EU? [18:43]
mircea_popescu hm, i recall there were supply problems in the eu. but maybe worth a try. [18:44]
mircea_popescu at any rate cheaper than a vps. [18:44]
mircea_popescu i mean if you have your own iron you don't need it's one thing, but otherwise... best own the box. [18:44]
mircea_popescu in other news, "In the newt species Notophthalmus viridescens, males carry out a courtship behavior called amplexus. It consists of males capturing females that do not want to mate with them and using their hind limbs to grasp the females by their pectoral regions." << check out the newt pua! [18:45]
Jautenim I'll look into it [18:45]
mircea_popescu "Male guppies (Poecilia reticulata) have been observed to forcefully copulate with females by trying to insert their gonopodium (male sex organ) into female’s genital pores, whether or not they are accepting. Sometimes, male guppies also try to forcefully mate with Skiffia bilineata (goodeid) females, which resemble guppy females and tend to share the same habitat, even when guppy females are available. A possible ex [18:46]
mircea_popescu planation for this is the deeper genital cavity of S. bilineata, which stimulates the males more than when mating with guppy females." [18:46]
mircea_popescu ^ dedicated slut species, omg. [18:46]
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Jautenim apropos [18:46]
Jautenim !register 32FE1E61B1C711186CA378DEFD8981F1BC41ABB9 [18:46]
assbot Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 32FE1E61B1C711186CA378DEFD8981F1BC41ABB9. This may take a few moments. [18:46]
assbot Key BC41ABB9 / "Marcel Hernandez (1MA) " successfully imported. [18:46]
assbot Registration successful. [18:46]
mircea_popescu !rate Jautenim 1 New blood. [18:47]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/da18ca543b26d634 [18:47]
mircea_popescu !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.Jautenim.1:a7148df60687a19ff87c1d6fee176454f47e22b3605b0b356515b3dfd39ba98d [18:48]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for Jautenim with note: New blood. [18:48]
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danielpbarron !up referredbyloper [18:53]
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justJanne okay, I’m kinda in a hurry – anyone know a fast way to do two-out-of-three in boolean logic with less than 5 operators? [18:54]
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mircea_popescu !up ETIST [18:55]
-assbot- You voiced ETIST for 30 minutes. [18:55]
* assbot gives voice to ETIST [18:55]
mircea_popescu lol cheating on homework already! [18:55]
justJanne nah, [18:55]
justJanne okay, kinda. [18:55]
justJanne yes >_> [18:55]
trinque ahaha [18:56]
mxtm haha [18:56]
justJanne the question was to implement the < operator on int with boolean logic [18:56]
justJanne we got it down to 8 operations, but others got it in 7 [18:56]
justJanne the only optimizable place would be the point where we do a two-out-of-three logic [18:56]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [18:56]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [18:56]
ascii_field justJanne: 'we' ?!!! [18:56]
justJanne currently (a & (b | c)) | (b & c) [18:57]
mircea_popescu talmud eh. [18:57]
justJanne ascii_field: homework is done in groups of two here at uni, so people learn how to do teamwork [18:57]
* mircea_popescu foretold. [18:57]
trinque learn how to pass the whole class [18:57]
justJanne Yeah, that’s not the issue. [18:58]
* assbot removes voice from Jautenim [18:58]
trinque teaches the best to hold back too; that's always good [18:58]
mircea_popescu justJanne your currently is 4 not 8 ? am i confused ? [18:58]
justJanne mircea_popescu: the overall question is to implement the < operator [18:58]
justJanne https://paste.kde.org/pbyoq0axp [18:58]
justJanne as you see, 8 ops [18:59]
mircea_popescu lmao [19:00]
mircea_popescu switch order around, get rid of not, 7. [19:00]
justJanne not possible. [19:01]
justJanne remember, we are working with ints [19:01]
justJanne so the ! is necessary there to turn -1 into 1 [19:01]
mircea_popescu doesn't ! turn false into true ?! [19:02]
justJanne kinda. [19:02]
justJanne this is C. [19:02]
mircea_popescu returni | (l1 & ny) ) >> 31); [19:02]
justJanne so everything that is not 0 is automatically true [19:02]
mircea_popescu what's that do. [19:02]
justJanne it would return 0 or -1 [19:02]
mircea_popescu so then... [19:02]
justJanne as >> moves the sign [19:02]
justJanne so you need to do +1 or ! [19:02]
mircea_popescu so everything that is not 0 is automatically true < ? [19:03]
justJanne yes [19:03]
mircea_popescu i think you're being german :D [19:03]
justJanne 5 is true. [19:03]
justJanne 2 is true. [19:03]
mircea_popescu -1 ? [19:03]
justJanne 1 is true. [19:03]
* ChanServ removes voice from ETIST [19:03]
justJanne -10000 is true [19:03]
justJanne 0 is false [19:03]
mircea_popescu so then the fucntion returns true, false. [19:03]
justJanne (kinda) [19:03]
justJanne c has no true, nor real false. But it can return 1 or 0 [19:03]
mircea_popescu you want 7 or don't you ? [19:03]
justJanne yes [19:04]
justJanne but it’s too late anyway [19:04]
mircea_popescu this is where a bring young mind learns what C really is all about :D [19:04]
justJanne we did lots of optimizations in the past weeks, homework this week is "you have this blob of binary, find out what it does, circumvent its checks" [19:05]
ascii_field justJanne: that last one was called 'the bomb' where i went to school [19:05]
ascii_field traditional exercise [19:05]
ascii_field it's really just a ritualized version of the familiar cracking of w4r3z [19:06]
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justJanne yeah. [19:07]
justJanne I spent the past days doing the same – actually cracking DRM of Tidal [19:08]
justJanne but then I discovered they have an unobfuscated android app, so I got lazy and started instead decompiling that one [19:08]
ascii_field justJanne: traditionally copy protection is implemented, where the rubber hits the road, by poor schmucks who aren't dumb enough to believe that it 'works' but still gotta collect that salary, and so 'are only following orderz' [19:09]
ascii_field hence tends to be... lackluster [19:09]
mircea_popescu kinda funny that drm never got as clever as viruses. even back when both these were clever, the ms-dos era. [19:10]
justJanne the in-browser DRM is a native binary that is pretty much stripped of any information, actually kinda hard to use, but the Android version of almost everything is stupid [19:10]
ascii_field (there are notable exceptions, e.g., ilfak guilfanov) [19:10]
justJanne (yes, Tidal uses a native plugin for in-browser DRM) [19:10]
mircea_popescu justJanne what is tidal even ? [19:10]
justJanne A music streaming service that streams lossless unedited FLAC files [19:10]
justJanne about 1344kbps quality [19:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105100 @ 0.00027668 = 29.0791 BTC [+] {4} [19:11]
ascii_field if lossless, why not pull'em out of /dev/pcm [19:11]
justJanne I wanted a way to scrape them. [19:11]
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trinque streaming service that got whoever's still considered "famous" in music together, stamped their faces on the thing [19:11]
mircea_popescu aha [19:11]
trinque "so totally not spotify you see" [19:11]
justJanne I found a way, but now I have a few thousand files encrypted, the corresponding PBKDF2WithHmacSHA1 encryption keys, but was too lazy to find the client-side salt for that [19:12]
justJanne and the sound quality, tbh, is great. Just not worth 20$ a month [19:12]
trinque ah I guess jay-z owns it [19:13]
mircea_popescu is this the guy that owns burning man ? [19:14]
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trinque heh looks like there's some noise about dr dre being behind burning man [19:15]
trinque damned hilarious if so, dunno about that [19:15]
mircea_popescu oh different one k nm [19:16]
* mircea_popescu can't distinguish rappers [19:17]
justJanne The difference between Dr Dre and Jay Z? Jay Z’s product actually is something more than marketing speech [19:17]
ben_vulpes wowee justJanne with the opinions [19:17]
justJanne I mean, Beats are just cheap Philips headphones with a bass boost. [19:17]
justJanne literally [19:18]
trinque jay-z is probably the best of the rapper-turned-entrepreneurs, yes [19:18]
ben_vulpes anyways, Tidal was a flip onto Jay Z who has yet to learn how horrifically expensive software is to build and maintain in fiatland. [19:18]
mircea_popescu lawl. [19:18]
trinque yup, the people who listen to him and beyonce aren't even paying for spotify [19:18]
mircea_popescu wow beyonce is still a thing ? [19:19]
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mircea_popescu this is the hot model woman from 10 years ago right ? [19:19]
ben_vulpes he'll blow a billi, and never touch software again. [19:19]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: mami's still lookin good! [19:19]
trinque haha hear hear! [19:19]
mircea_popescu digital or irl ? [19:19]
ben_vulpes last i saw was the hbo special [19:19]
mircea_popescu dawg im impressed, this is like black madonna material. [19:20]
ben_vulpes 3+ hours of high-octane beyonce wiggle [19:20]
justJanne ben_vulpes: still, compared to all those 9000$ expensive audio cables, or Beats headphones, lossless FLAC has an advantage over 128kbps mp3 [19:20]
mircea_popescu who ever knew of a black hottie outlast a decade. [19:20]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42222 @ 0.00027343 = 11.5448 BTC [-] {2} [19:20]
trinque justJanne: yeah just average consumer derp is not going to tell the difference between that and spotify's ogg-whatever [19:20]
* ben_vulpes has yet to outlast a decade [19:20]
mircea_popescu ahahaha wut. SKIN LIGHTENING ? [19:20]
trinque and will just see 10 bucks more than the 10 bucks I'm already not paying [19:21]
mircea_popescu you gotta be kidding me. [19:21]
justJanne trinque: lol [19:21]
mircea_popescu is she inviting preteens over to her estate next ? [19:21]
justJanne yeah, still – Tidal is the first service providing CD quality. [19:21]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: sauce [19:21]
mircea_popescu http://gossipmagazines.net/beyonce-plastic-surgery/ [19:21]
ben_vulpes justJanne: sure if you discount gnutella. [19:21]
justJanne ben_vulpes: we’re talking about services that have a chance of mainstream adoption. [19:21]
justJanne gnutella has as much chances of mainstream adoption as Gentoo has [19:22]
ben_vulpes bitch please back in the day gnutella /was/ mainstream [19:22]
ben_vulpes just because nobody uses it anymore, well. [19:22]
trinque who remembers direct connect? [19:22]
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trinque and winmx? [19:22]
ben_vulpes we're getting old, trinque [19:23]
trinque man that was a glorious age of the internet [19:23]
mircea_popescu gnutella has as much chances of mainstream adoption as Gentoo has << ouch-zing-ouch [19:23]
ben_vulpes soon we'll be grumpy like mircea_popescu [19:23]
trinque ben_vulpes: goddamn kids don't understand the unlimited buffet that was the intertubes [19:23]
justJanne still is! [19:23]
mircea_popescu justJanne he doesn't mean pr0n hon. [19:23]
justJanne oh. [19:24]
trinque lol [19:24]
mircea_popescu !b 2 [19:24]
assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2FGH014.txt ) [19:24]
mircea_popescu shit stop messing up my bash ppls! [19:24]
ben_vulpes c-c-c-c-c [19:24]
ben_vulpes -combo breaker! [19:24]
trinque kazaa was when the idiots all joined the party and ruined it [19:24]
mircea_popescu stop being raceys trinque [19:24]
justJanne hey, at least nowadays the web is getting better again. [19:24]
ben_vulpes bwahahahaha [19:24]
ben_vulpes ah [19:25]
ben_vulpes ho [19:25]
trinque I apologize for my senseless outburst of hate [19:25]
ben_vulpes hee hee hee [19:25]
trinque justJanne: is not youngin [19:25]
justJanne Almost every video service hosts plain video files instead of flash-based players for .flv videos anymore [19:25]
mircea_popescu ^ [19:25]
mircea_popescu solid point she has there bitches. [19:25]
ben_vulpes justJanne: have you been following the glibc travails? [19:25]
justJanne nah. [19:25]
trinque yeah I'll grant browsers are going further towards "open techmology" whatever that means [19:25]
mircea_popescu what now ? owned by a 19yo girl ? not even speaking her mother tongue ? HOW!!1 do you expect to end up bitter like me this wya ? [19:25]
trinque hilarious also that the shit getting put into the browser is effectively whatw as in flash [19:26]
justJanne trinque: not necessarily. [19:26]
mircea_popescu im really impressed with stuff like gyfcat or w/e that was called. [19:26]
justJanne Now I can just grep through the JS, find the link to the .mp4, and wget it, and watch it offline [19:26]
justJanne I remember the sad days of having to decompile swf objects just to rip a video. [19:26]
justJanne or using *cringe* realplayer [19:26]
mircea_popescu and 8chan was, to my surprise, chock full of html5 videos that work just fine. [19:26]
mircea_popescu youtube does not work for me, but 8chan does. [19:27]
trinque flash was just another ecmascript runtime thing [19:27]
trinque with a canvas like the canvas tag [19:27]
mircea_popescu justJanne wait, the sad days from when you were... 9 ? [19:27]
trinque and of course DRM and other shit [19:27]
justJanne mircea_popescu: yes? [19:27]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [19:27]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13150 @ 0.00027341 = 3.5953 BTC [-] [19:27]
trinque I'm not saying the browser isn't adding features; I'm saying it's aping the tired ways of a previous generation [19:27]
mircea_popescu you were ripping flash vids before your voice changed. wtf is this! [19:27]
trinque there's nothing "new" about html5 [19:27]
mircea_popescu trinque other than the fact it works. [19:28]
justJanne of course not. [19:28]
justJanne although, there is something new [19:28]
mircea_popescu !rated copypaste [19:28]
assbot You rated user copypaste on 13-May-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Presumably, 8chan owner. [19:28]
justJanne people writing in-browser apps that don’t support linking [19:28]
mircea_popescu !rate copypaste 2 Confirmed for the ever-awesome HotWheels. [19:28]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/82ddd601d1ac8005 [19:28]
trinque justJanne: points out the conflict between the web-as-document-store and web-as-app-things [19:28]
mircea_popescu !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.copypaste.2:dd03f79f93681af647a8dddf4f7c2f32fd9dc2470a2bedda0f600cc1b5da14a7 [19:29]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for copypaste from 1 to 2 with note: Confirmed for the ever-awesome HotWheels. [19:29]
trinque anyhow what are we addressing here. I was reminiscing about opennap servers [19:29]
justJanne trinque: one funny example: http://i.imgur.com/k9BZPhT.png [19:29]
justJanne (screenshot from DDG) [19:29]
trinque that looks like someone's stupid js data bindey thing fucked up [19:30]
trinque what am I looking for [19:30]
justJanne exactly [19:30]
justJanne JS webapps that do everything in-browser [19:31]
justJanne makes the job a lot harder for crawlers [19:31]
trinque I approve of you having independently discovered that this is a shit way to do things. [19:31]
justJanne when my crawler stopped working due to this, [19:31]
trinque subcategory of... JS is an appalling language and bolted to the DOM it's even worse [19:31]
mircea_popescu trinque i dunno dood, i love the select thing on trilema. [19:32]
mircea_popescu first time i ever used js. [19:32]
justJanne JS has some nice parts. [19:32]
justJanne like that it encourages them to use more functional code [19:32]
adlai justJanne: dunno, it seems obvious that if you want to crawl the luser-visible web, you simulate the luser, not curl [19:32]
justJanne adlai: yes, but in 2008 you could just curl the web and get it all [19:32]
mircea_popescu and in 2010 you could cpu mine [19:33]
justJanne in 2010 you could throw wget -r on the new york times and get, after a few weeks, half of the web. [19:33]
mircea_popescu more like a fifth, and if using slashdot. [19:33]
justJanne if your parents didn’t kill you for the dialup bill, though [19:33]
trinque mircea_popescu: I can't argue with HTML being a decent way of publishing articles; seems to have worked out pretty well [19:33]
trinque I do think many "web apps" of today would do better to be written as native code which just opens a socket for data [19:34]
mircea_popescu trinque the selector thing is specific js tho, and it does something not afaik doable in html per se [19:34]
mircea_popescu something that i want so badly, i would never give up [19:34]
trinque s/HTML/HTML+CSS+JS/ [19:35]
trinque the conflict there is the same one as in SQL [19:35]
trinque "end user programming" [19:35]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.0002726 = 11.1221 BTC [-] {2} [19:35]
trinque so you've got one group of derps demanding the thing be "intuitive" to "those people" [19:35]
trinque and you've got other people trying to use the things as proper programming tools [19:35]
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justJanne it’s not just limited to that. [19:36]
trinque the browser's a fine document thing and it should stop there before it hurts someone [19:36]
justJanne you might end up with governmental websites using JS for access control. [19:36]
justJanne and governments then passing laws that "circumventing client-side access control" becomes a crime [19:36]
trinque meh [19:36]
trinque prove I did it [19:36]
trinque I don't think anyone in government could form those sentences [19:37]
mircea_popescu you don't understand how the law works, trinque [19:37]
trinque it is *real*!!! [19:37]
mircea_popescu here's a simple explanation catering to you specifically : it's not a truth finding mechanism, it's a consensus building mechanism. [19:37]
mircea_popescu it's point is not to produce sicence, but to prevent people from clobbering each other. [19:37]
mircea_popescu geddit ? [19:37]
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justJanne we’re talking here about a government where the chancellor has a PhD in Quantum Chemistry – obviously not stupid, but evil. [19:37]
trinque mircea_popescu: yes that makes sense re: law [19:38]
mircea_popescu so "prove i did it" has a very simple counter : if you weigh the same as a duck [19:38]
mircea_popescu you're made of wood [19:38]
trinque ahahaha [19:38]
mircea_popescu and therefore, my bitch! [19:38]
trinque of course; it's something I may run into or not, but I will not try to make sense of wooden ducks [19:39]
mircea_popescu best burn down any large scales of that kind. [19:39]
trinque justJanne: someone requires I use thing X as part of my browser, and that's the day I stop using browsers [19:39]
justJanne the law literally says "if you access an electronical data computation system unauthorized" [19:39]
mircea_popescu what, like you stopped using glibc ? [19:39]
mircea_popescu :D [19:39]
justJanne where authorized isn’t defined [19:39]
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mircea_popescu justJanne blessfully, relatively few people live in that sort of shithole. speaking of which, do you have plans to escape ? [19:40]
justJanne nah. It’s good enough. And at least streaming illegal movies is legal here [19:40]
mircea_popescu heh. [19:40]
* trinque emits a parse error [19:40]
trinque mircea_popescu: and someday yes! [19:40]
mircea_popescu trinque see ? someday, sure. [19:40]
* justJanne read that as trinique.see() ? someday : sure [19:41]
trinque heh maybe if the last two terms are swapped [19:41]
mircea_popescu justJanne https://kuschku.de/frozen/royal-insignia-of-arendelle/ << you made this ? [19:42]
justJanne a friend did, but I collected them [19:42]
justJanne I didn’t draw them [19:42]
mircea_popescu http://i.imgur.com/VSjAh04.png << ahaha epic [19:43]
mircea_popescu she draws just like a 19yo too. [19:43]
justJanne >_> [19:43]
justJanne I’m not good at it, k? [19:43]
mircea_popescu you're fine. [19:43]
justJanne I did sketch this, though: http://i.imgur.com/xCr9iTz.png [19:44]
mircea_popescu they do a trick, for frozen cgi, which is very hard to do by hand, where they fold her face in a particular moe pattern. amusingly enough - this is very similar to how pharma works, because it involves searching the space of possible facefolds for something that's not in the uncanny valley and works. [19:45]
justJanne I know, I spent 1 year in a dozen frozen fan chats [19:45]
justJanne I’ve seen the movie 13 times in cinema >_> [19:45]
mircea_popescu is it actually that good ? [19:45]
mircea_popescu what is it even, like rapunzel v2.0 ? [19:46]
mod6 there's ~20 hours you'll never get back [19:46]
mircea_popescu dude let the woman have her childhood. i listened to fucking iron maiden! [19:46]
justJanne nah, spending one year in those chats, 24/7 is something I’ll never get back. [19:46]
mod6 haha [19:46]
trinque what do you mean "listened" [19:46]
mircea_popescu lol. oh, i see, IM is ok, frozen isn't. k. brb. [19:46]
mircea_popescu http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Iron-Maiden-Seventh-Son-Of-A-Seventh-Son-300x300.jpg << melted. [19:47]
mircea_popescu aaaand im now stuck with clairvoyant. well done internets o.O [19:48]
danielpbarron http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136872 << I used to collect flac albums like a decade ago -- surprised to hear it's even still a thing; let alone has official commercial backing [19:51]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 22:16:09; justJanne: ben_vulpes: still, compared to all those 9000$ expensive audio cables, or Beats headphones, lossless FLAC has an advantage over 128kbps mp3 [19:51]
trinque https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB6JSmYcN2I << goddamn the shredding [19:51]
justJanne danielpbarron: it makes sense to have 1400kbps FLAC, as that’s CD quality [19:51]
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trinque I like how youtube has every damn everything on it, and continues to exist [19:52]
trinque meanwhile grooveshark rots on a spike somewhere [19:52]
trinque danielpbarron: I once lost like 400gb of flacs [19:52]
danielpbarron oh I get the advantages to lossless; I even went out of my way to buy special hardware (fancy headphones and an iPhone-style device with custom firmware) [19:53]
trinque the tears [19:53]
danielpbarron yeah i lost all my flac files when i forgot i had them on a harddrive i used to make the RAID in my full node [19:53]
danielpbarron so it goes.. [19:53]
justJanne danielpbarron: I have cheap Sennheiser HD 449 headphones and a normal phone, works well enough [19:53]
trinque lol yeah I formatted the drive too [19:53]
trinque to help some chick upgrade her OS [19:53]
trinque that was a lesson [19:53]
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* kakobrekla still hangs on ~1500 flac albums [19:54]
danielpbarron i'm not into music enough to care about these things anymore [19:54]
justJanne for some years I had a script that wipes a random harddrive at a random time [19:54]
justJanne helps making sure backups work [19:54]
trinque man I need a good amount of raging out to metal per day [19:54]
justJanne though one day the script wiped the drive itself was on, never found it again [19:54]
trinque LOL [19:54]
justJanne [19:56]
kakobrekla speaking of flac and tidal; http://test.tidalhifi.com [19:58]
mod6 ;;bc,stats [20:01]
gribble Current Blocks: 357052 | Current Difficulty: 4.880748724468138E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 358847 | Next Difficulty In: 1795 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 13 hours, 15 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49340718499.3 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.09252 [20:01]
jurov ls -l [20:01]
mod6 cannot access #bitcoin-assets: No such file or directory [20:02]
mircea_popescu sudo ls -l [20:02]
deedbot- [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Victoria’s nature. - http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/18/victorias-nature/ [20:04]
justJanne mkdir -p #bitcoin-assets && cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc a-zA-Z0-9 > #bitcoin-assets/random [20:04]
mod6 haha [20:04]
mircea_popescu i take that as a personal insult! [20:06]
mod6 asciilifeform: heh, now these 21 guys are saying they wanna make embeddable mining chips for smart phones. glwt. seeing as how they run out of power in like 9 minutes as it is. [20:07]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136366 << no mercenaries even this time ? [20:07]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 14:52:59; mats: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/world/middleeast/isis-ramadi-iraq.html Ramadi falls against IS [20:07]
justJanne mod6: power is not the issue. [20:08]
justJanne heat is. [20:08]
mircea_popescu mod6 the entire toaster miner thing was lulzy to begin with, but smartphone coronat opus. [20:08]
justJanne your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava [20:08]
mircea_popescu justJanne sounds pretty cool. how much for one ? [20:08]
justJanne mircea_popescu: they aren’t for sale yet, but if you want to get a taste, you can buy an AMD GPU [20:09]
mircea_popescu heh. bitcoin ran on those for yers you know. [20:09]
mircea_popescu some guy even got brain damage from heat stroke [20:09]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136369 << or as we like to call this, "he got von flondored" [20:09]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 14:59:18; mats: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/5/16/former-egyptian-president-morsi-sentenced-to-death.html [20:09]
mircea_popescu !up btc [20:10]
-assbot- You voiced btc for 30 minutes. [20:10]
mircea_popescu !up btcg [20:10]
-assbot- You voiced btcg for 30 minutes. [20:10]
* assbot gives voice to btcg [20:10]
btcg thanks [20:10]
mircea_popescu aha. [20:10]
jurov ben_vulpes: what was the problem with the overlay? [20:10]
btcg random question: what do you folks think of the proposed embedded mining from 21? [20:11]
btcg i wonder how they'll run a full node, i guess there's the ~1.2 gig pruned node [20:11]
ben_vulpes jurov: i don't think i actually understand how they're supposed to work. [20:12]
btcg i saw mod6's comment how would a phone support a full node [20:12]
mats mircea_popescu: wait six months i guess [20:12]
ben_vulpes https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << i followed this and a few other guides, but failed to get anything that looked like it would let me hack on the diehard source [20:12]
danielpbarron btcg, chip doesn't need full node to mine; all chips probably phone home to central node for the next header to work on [20:13]
trinque ben_vulpes: if you want to hack best just stick the source in your home directory [20:13]
mircea_popescu mats curious if egypt actually goes the way of turkey or mopre like syria [20:13]
trinque making an ebuild is more along the lines of packaging up your thing and shipping it [20:13]
jurov ben_vulpes: what failed? [20:13]
mircea_popescu btcg that it's ridiculous. [20:13]
btcg ahh, like electrum heh [20:13]
trinque there are a few magical files that need to be inside /usr/local/portage or wherever the overlay may be [20:13]
mircea_popescu no. like a fuckable fridge. [20:13]
mircea_popescu even admitting you could make this, who in his right mind wants to fuck the food storebox. [20:14]
jurov ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage [20:14]
mircea_popescu anyone made homeless linux yet ? where you DON'T get a home dir ? [20:14]
trinque mircea_popescu: there's an (american?) phenomenon there where innovating means crapping together however many things that already existed, and calling it something new [20:14]
mircea_popescu trinque you don't say. [20:15]
mircea_popescu "it's like x but for y" ? [20:15]
jurov export ROOT=/dev/null [20:15]
btcg i was hoping a water heater that pays for itself, by using miner heat, but embeddable chip, if their centralized servers have issue, eeek [20:15]
trinque mircea_popescu: seems like what happens to the imitators when there's nothing good to imitate [20:15]
trinque re-feeds on itself for a few cycles and there's nothing left [20:16]
jurov btcg: if you can synthsize it from ECL chips, no prob [20:16]
trinque uber for facebooks [20:16]
mircea_popescu btcg you seen the log discussion on this topic ? [20:16]
ben_vulpes jurov: more or less getting `emerge` to work with my sources. but... [20:16]
btcg ahh, i'll read it thanks [20:16]
ben_vulpes ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage << this first [20:16]
btcg i usually just read it at leisure decided to jump in here [20:16]
mircea_popescu btcg do two things. read http://trilema.com/2013/youre-gonna-have-to-learn-that-variety-speak/ and then read http://log.bitcoin-assets.com [20:16]
mircea_popescu aha. [20:17]
trinque ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay#Manually_setting_overlay_locations << gotta put some files places and configure make.conf [20:17]
ben_vulpes blee i did [20:17]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=10-05-2015#1127543 < fpr instance. [20:17]
ben_vulpes also i read ELSEWHERE on the gentoo wiki that PORTDIR_OVERLAY is deprecated [20:17]
jurov btcg: and if it is not only gentoo problem, you can skip portage and go annoy upstream [20:17]
ben_vulpes so i don't know mang [20:17]
trinque deprecated for what [20:17]
justJanne trinque: that is very much true @ the apple-strategy argument [20:18]
mats mircea_popescu: i'm inclined to believe egypt will follow syria [20:18]
mircea_popescu seems safe bet. [20:18]
trinque ben_vulpes: god damn it; I smell shitgnoes [20:18]
trinque *gnomes [20:18]
trinque https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Portage/Sync << they're adding "plugins" [20:18]
ben_vulpes nigga iono [20:18]
trinque fuck it all; everyone has to bolt a dick massager to everything [20:18]
ben_vulpes some "overlay for morons" gentoo wiki page [20:18]
btcg jurov apologies i am not on gentoo sir [20:19]
ben_vulpes https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << "Note: The old method of setting the 'PORTDIR_OVERLAY' variable in make.conf is deprecated and should not be used." [20:19]
jurov btcg sry it was to ben [20:19]
mircea_popescu trinque:--std=c99 kicks on __STRICT_ANSI__ which affects whether __USE_MISC is defined in features.h << such a great explanation of wtf is wrong with all this shit. [20:19]
trinque justJanne: it's the whole socialist world's strategy [20:19]
trinque with scare quotes [20:19]
assbot Logged on 10-05-2015 23:16:02; mircea_popescu: toaster is kinda dumb, but ceramic tiles for warm floor is worth doing. [20:19]
trinque best stated by mircea_popescu re: reproduce until there isn't anything extra, then divide it all until dead [20:20]
mircea_popescu naggum. [20:20]
justJanne trinque: it makes me especially angry when this is combined with programmers who call themselves "engineers", but whose products stop working after just a decade [20:20]
trinque ah that was his? [20:20]
mircea_popescu yup. [20:20]
mircea_popescu fwiw, i happen to believe it is actually the correct strategy, [20:20]
mircea_popescu just, correct from a game theoretic perspective of genetics, not of individual humans. [20:21]
trinque it's what animal populations do right? boom and bust [20:21]
trinque justJanne: the problem there is economic; why give a shit what happens next year? we'll all be dead [20:21]
justJanne trinque: that’s one issue, sadly. [20:22]
justJanne in the past years, technology got worse [20:22]
justJanne microwave from 1980 still works, TV from '96 as well, PC from '98 is still in use. [20:22]
justJanne but phone from 2007 is EOL [20:22]
mircea_popescu actually, glengarry moss had that one right : http://trilema.com/2014/weak-sauce/#selection-765.0-767.186 [20:22]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136459 << i agree, this is one of the better derivative works to be had on the basis of the phuctor results. [20:26]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 18:57:06; Apocalyptic: (the full factoring is interesting because it's the only way to compute the private exponent d) [20:26]
ben_vulpes your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava << israelis came up with this one iirc [20:26]
mircea_popescu fully investigate the keys in question, cornerstone of which is, get d. [20:26]
mircea_popescu Pierre_Rochard holy shiot wtf is that. [20:29]
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kakobrekla kanzure Keefe knotwork ko__ kushed kuzetsa kyuupichan [20:30]
mircea_popescu !up ko__ [20:30]
-assbot- You voiced ko__ for 30 minutes. [20:30]
* assbot gives voice to ko__ [20:30]
trinque http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/18/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-idUSKBN0O20M020150518 "U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said it was a "target of opportunity," that could be retaken in a matter of days, and U.S. officials insisted there would be no change in strategy despite a failure to make major advances against Islamic State." [20:33]
trinque does seem like if anything coherent is intended at all, it's to provoke a larger regional war [20:33]
trinque oh the irony that would be if someday the middle east is united in its hatred for the united states [20:34]
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mircea_popescu such vietnam [20:34]
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mircea_popescu to streamline administration ~~~and deregulate power to lower levels~~~ [20:36]
mircea_popescu china will be un-fucking-stoppable. [20:37]
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trinque http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-05/18/c_134248403.htm << that'n eh? [20:38]
trinque sounds like they're going to put the fork in the dollar [20:39]
mircea_popescu if they implement even halfway... [20:39]
* assbot removes voice from btcg [20:40]
justJanne meh. [20:42]
justJanne the US is financing the saudi’s, who sell ISIS weapons, so technically the US is financing ISIS anyway [20:42]
trinque I think the Saudi's deserve some credit for the swindle there [20:42]
mircea_popescu "your dad brought you clothes, which you traded for drugs, so technically your dad bought you drugs" [20:42]
justJanne if the dad still gives you clothes, even though he knows what you’re doing... [20:43]
justJanne and the US is also selling weapons to the saudis directly, which they sold directly to ISIS [20:43]
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trinque probably some faction of bastards in the US is actually aware of this, and others are not [20:46]
trinque there's not one coherent "they" to consider in regards to the country [20:47]
justJanne yeah, it’s not something the population can do anything against. it’s just inevitable with 2 parties that are both quite corrupt [20:47]
justJanne not that Germany would be better, with people like Gerhard Schröder >_> [20:47]
mircea_popescu is he bad ? [20:48]
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justJanne He was a German chancellor in the social democrats party who reduced welfare spending, removed any kind of minimum wage ideas, added laws for some businesses, and changed several laws so that Gazprom could build a pipeline. [20:49]
justJanne the day after his time as chancellor ended, he got a job at Gazprom [20:49]
justJanne this guy betrayed everyone who voted for thim, and the rest of Germany, too [20:50]
mircea_popescu seems like they're all splendid ideas ? [20:50]
justJanne nope. Reducing unemployment money, removing minimum wage, etc is definitely not "good" [20:50]
mircea_popescu why not ? [20:50]
justJanne because everyone should have equal chances [20:51]
mircea_popescu why ? [20:51]
jurov http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1137062 lmao i have only now noticed [20:51]
assbot Logged on 18-05-2015 22:57:22; jurov: ls -l [20:51]
justJanne because no one should have a disadvantage from choices they didn’t make. [20:51]
mircea_popescu so ? [20:51]
justJanne just because your parents are poor doesn’t mean you should have worse chances in life [20:51]
mircea_popescu why not ? [20:51]
justJanne because you aren’t responsible [20:51]
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mircea_popescu of course you are. you work hard and save to give your kids a better chance. [20:52]
justJanne do you want to punish people for stuff they didn’t do, choices they didn’t make? [20:52]
mircea_popescu you don't expect every kids have equal chances, because that removes any incentive for you to do anything. [20:52]
mircea_popescu just float around. [20:52]
justJanne no, it doesn’t. [20:52]
justJanne nowadays we have basic income here even. [20:52]
mircea_popescu i punish people for what they are rather than what they want to be all the time. [20:52]
justJanne people still work. [20:52]
mircea_popescu heck, my whole life's built around this principle. [20:52]
justJanne then you might want to rethink your life. [20:53]
mircea_popescu one of us, at any rate. [20:53]
justJanne let’s say it like this, not even the literal nazis had such a right-wing idea about society. And they are nazis. [20:53]
mircea_popescu i know. [20:53]
mircea_popescu admittedly, i'm more like a 1700s mind. [20:53]
justJanne anyway, it works here. [20:54]
mircea_popescu to me, the difference between soviets and nazis is nil : both were socialists. [20:54]
mircea_popescu no, it doesn't. that's the fallacy of "we can't compare to any alternatives, as thery don't exist - so it works fine!!1" [20:54]
mircea_popescu ever read candide ? [20:54]
justJanne like 90% of all firemen here, for example, work for free. volunteers. No pay, nothing. They risk their lives for nothing, while still having a normal job at the same time. [20:54]
trinque why should they not be paid for dangerous work? [20:54]
justJanne because they are volunteers. [20:55]
mircea_popescu moreover, why is some people's preference a basis for law ? [20:55]
mircea_popescu let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me. [20:55]
justJanne the idea is: if society is well enough, [20:55]
justJanne then people will work literally for free, [20:55]
mircea_popescu society is about as meaningful a concept as baby jesus. [20:55]
justJanne just to provide a benefit for everyone [20:55]
mircea_popescu and yes, people behave stupidly all the time [20:55]
mircea_popescu this is no valid argument. [20:55]
justJanne it’s not stupid. [20:55]
mircea_popescu says who ? [20:55]
justJanne everyone? [20:56]
mircea_popescu apparently not. [20:56]
justJanne obviously it works well in the countries with the highest standard of living – [20:56]
mircea_popescu (and here we go again, The Narrative is fragile) [20:56]
justJanne all across scandinavia and central europe [20:56]
mircea_popescu no, it works absolutely nowhere. [20:57]
mircea_popescu just, some people are momentarily insulated from the effects of their stupidity. [20:57]
justJanne No. [20:57]
mircea_popescu just like - unprotected sex works fine "in those places where syplhilis hasn't appeared yet". [20:57]
mircea_popescu sure. won't last. by the very nature of what unprotected sex is, it won't last. [20:57]
justJanne that’s not the thing. [20:57]
justJanne this system of society has lasted for centuries [20:57]
mircea_popescu nope. it's barely five decades old, and already cracking. [20:58]
justJanne the volunteering fire brigade system has existed since the 1400s [20:58]
mircea_popescu ah, that. again : let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me. [20:58]
justJanne the consumer cooperatives operating non-profit chains of grocery stores have also existed since the 1800s [20:58]
mircea_popescu and necrophillic pedophillia has existed since 50`000 years ago. [20:58]
mircea_popescu so what of it ? [20:58]
justJanne It’s obviously more stable than the economical system plagued of bubble bursts that is existing at Wall Street nowadays [20:59]
mircea_popescu the system you discuss IS the other system you discuss. [20:59]
mircea_popescu there's no difference there, just a meaningless distinction. [20:59]
justJanne no. [20:59]
mircea_popescu well, if you manage to survive emotionally, your stay in #b-a is bound to be instructive. [21:00]
justJanne the first system I discuss in scandinavia or central europe is a place where 60% of the companies have existed for centuries, have long term neither profit nor losses, and no growth [21:00]
justJanne which isn’t really necessary [21:00]
justJanne tbh, it’s the only really sustainable way [21:00]
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trinque sounds like an environment where it'd be difficult to get anything new started [21:01]
justJanne not really. There are many startups here, actually. [21:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53750 @ 0.00027982 = 15.0403 BTC [+] {2} [21:02]
justJanne the thing is that most of these don’t aim for a huge profit, [21:02]
justJanne but aim for slow growth and a sustainable profit. [21:02]
trinque oh youngin [21:02]
justJanne yes, that actually works. [21:03]
justJanne you don’t need to aim for 1 billion users with your 5 people startup to be sustainable [21:03]
trinque you'll get no argument from me on that [21:03]
trinque but that is not tantamount to saying "therefore social democracy" [21:03]
trinque not even close [21:03]
justJanne ofc nto. [21:03]
justJanne not [21:03]
justJanne we are at a completely different point now [21:03]
justJanne sadly. [21:04]
jurov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO5ectGTcOU justJanne: the "sustained" was just your luck that usg needed to prop you up [21:04]
trinque if we presuppose that the only way to start a business will be having someone bankroll you, we're already lost [21:04]
trinque central planning has limitations which will mean that you get far fewer "startups" [21:04]
justJanne trinque: that is socialism [21:05]
justJanne not social democracy [21:05]
justJanne social democracy consists of a social market: [21:05]
trinque justJanne: you just misunderstand my definition of central planning [21:05]
justJanne essentially a free market, but with 50% taxes and basic income [21:05]
trinque uh huh and who determined those are the magic numbers? [21:05]
trinque give me a low cost of living and don't tax the shit out of me and I'll start all kinds of businesses [21:06]
justJanne the people? that’s why you have (a) elections and (b) public polls on them? [21:06]
justJanne we have a party that aims for that. [21:06]
trinque determining that 50% taxes is the magic number is not soviet because "the people" [21:06]
justJanne they got less than 4% of the votes last election [21:06]
danielpbarron the people are stupid [21:07]
justJanne no. they just know that one day they might lose their job, [21:07]
trinque danielpbarron: heh I always like "surgery by your peers" as a thought experiment [21:07]
justJanne and that it is preferable to be safe over having high returns [21:07]
trinque justJanne: you are completely ignoring the financial considerations involved [21:07]
trinque and substituting "consent" for that [21:08]
justJanne trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc. [21:08]
danielpbarron high returns is a safeguard against starving when you lose your job; it leads to savings [21:08]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Morphine yeast seems like a bigger blow to the fiat order than 3D guns and shovel AK's for sure [21:08]
justJanne danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving [21:09]
trinque danielpbarron: and results in a person that can *make decisions* [21:09]
trinque justJanne: then you made bad decisions [21:09]
trinque or someone else did [21:09]
justJanne yes. [21:09]
justJanne but society is there to save you from the consequences of bad decisions ;P [21:09]
trinque so how did I get involved in that? [21:09]
danielpbarron why should someone who is prone to "lose it all" be propped up by his more productive neighbors? [21:09]
justJanne especially when you aren’t responsible [21:09]
trinque justJanne: so out of this bundle of bad decisons how do good ones emerge? [21:09]
trinque danielpbarron: because govt is the new god and he can save us from even death [21:10]
trinque or she, I guess these days [21:10]
justJanne danielpbarron: because they have a chance to work later on again? [21:10]
danielpbarron this notion that you can be born "not responsible" is the false axiom from which you base further positions [21:11]
justJanne it is more profitable, for example, to put criminals into a trade school and let them work again than to put them into a prison [21:11]
mats why should society save you from yourself? that's not sustainable in the least. [21:11]
trinque justJanne: you cannot assert such things absent the financial considerations [21:11]
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trinque we can imagine all sorts of ideal scenarios if we're free to disregard parts of reality we don't like [21:12]
jurov yeah, it is actually true providing shelter to homeless is cheaper than let them die and dispose of properly [21:12]
justJanne so, in your minds, the Comcast/ATT/Verizon oligopol is good? [21:12]
mats oligopolies are not inherently evil, you know. [21:12]
trinque justJanne: what keeps them from being outcompeted? [21:12]
danielpbarron justJanne, your society is a prison; that is, the one in which there is no individual and only the considerations of the lowest common denominator [21:12]
trinque too much noise; one point at a time. [21:13]
justJanne trinque: cost. [21:13]
trinque incorrect [21:13]
justJanne the starting cost is extreme. [21:13]
justJanne and the oligopols lobby corrupt politicians, too [21:13]
trinque justJanne: are you familiar with "regulatory capture" [21:13]
trinque sure cost but what makes it expensive [21:13]
justJanne and yes, mats, in my opinion all monopolies or oligopolies are inherently evil [21:13]
trinque but not governments [21:14]
mats justJanne: because "its not fair"? [21:14]
trinque the largest of them [21:14]
justJanne mats: yes. [21:14]
mats because everyone should get a shot at being a telecoms company! [21:14]
justJanne mats: yes, but you have to ask the question different. [21:14]
cazalla http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137291 <<< i wouldn't send my dog to free childcare let alone my actually son [21:14]
assbot Logged on 19-05-2015 00:04:29; justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc. [21:14]
mats sign me up. i don't know shit, but i can carry a gun. am i qualified? [21:14]
mats could do, like, perimeter security for a base station. [21:14]
justJanne mats: yes. my ISP I use right now is 5 geeks in a basement. [21:14]
justJanne I get 100/40mbps for 10$ a monht [21:15]
justJanne and they are profitable [21:15]
cazalla you might pay $100 to them in tax but you sure as fuck don't get back $100 worth of childcare when it's free [21:15]
trinque try doing radio experiments in your garage and see how long it takes for the FCC to show up [21:15]
mod6 asciilifeform: thx for posting the werker [21:15]
justJanne cazalla: you haven’ŧ seen childcare here, I have – I was in it just 13 years ago ;P [21:15]
cazalla it shows [21:15]
jurov cazalla: so you'll pay $1000 for childcare instead? [21:15]
mats justJanne: b-but don't you believe in freedom? [21:16]
mats its entirely possible that monopolies, oligopolies will naturally arise in conditions of voluntary trade [21:16]
justJanne mats: your freedom ends where the freedom of the others begins [21:16]
mats and you want, what, a coalition of retards (e.g. bureaucrats and commoners) to manage allocation of capital? [21:16]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91076 @ 0.0002709 = 24.6725 BTC [-] {4} [21:16]
justJanne no. [21:16]
mats but you'd bust that up, if you ran things. [21:16]
justJanne no. [21:17]
justJanne the current situation is ideal. [21:17]
mats but they're evil. you must fight evil. [21:17]
justJanne neither side is evil. [21:17]
justJanne only sith deal in absolutes [21:17]
danielpbarron what is the current situation? [21:17]
hanbot except monopolies? [21:17]
trinque danielpbarron: social democracy [21:17]
justJanne monopolies aren’t really "evil", they just develop out of greed [21:18]
hanbot butr you said... [21:18]
justJanne the issue with monopolies is that the companies behind it try to do everything in their mind to avoid competition. [21:18]
justJanne which is inherently evil [21:18]
trinque justJanne: you find me a "monopoly" in history that didn't have govt protection [21:18]
justJanne and rarely monopolies every arise without this [21:18]
justJanne trinque: Google on the search market [21:18]
hanbot how about jealous wives? [21:18]
trinque justJanne: fucking lol [21:18]
trinque you have no idea what a monopoly is [21:19]
cazalla jurov, nope, i'm anti-childcare, kids should be home with their parents, not strangers and other swine [21:19]
trinque it's not "oh no they're winning" [21:19]
danielpbarron she has no idea what "evil" is [21:19]
mats the point of being a business is to brutally murder your competition. there's no avoidance going on. [21:19]
cazalla my point was more that the idea that you get back what you pay in taxes by way of free healthcare and childcare is retarded [21:19]
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mats it just happens that the moat is too high for joe commoner to cross. [21:19]
jurov cazalla: the $1000 figure stays even more so if you're to stay home [21:19]
jurov and if you pay your own doctor [21:20]
jurov own teacher [21:20]
jurov etc... [21:20]
danielpbarron cazalla, it's practically a mathematical proof : the further detached money gets from the person it is meant to benefit, the less efficiently it will be spent [21:20]
justJanne that’s why politicians are supposed to be normal people. [21:20]
justJanne my state’s governor uses the same bus as me every morning [21:20]
danielpbarron and i'm supposed to have a flying car already [21:20]
cazalla jurov, i would if i could, but i can't afford my own doctor.. i can afford to keep kid out of childcare [21:21]
trinque justJanne: many of the phrases you use are propaganda terms with no well defined meaning [21:21]
trinque "normal people" among them [21:21]
justJanne trinque: I am talking about "anyone can become politician" [21:21]
cazalla if you're gonna put your kids in childcare, ya may as well just kill em now and save yourself years of pain [21:21]
trinque justJanne: and derpy uncle Biden rode amtrak [21:21]
jurov and you trinque cazalla danielpbarron are talking about some ideal you can't afford anyway [21:21]
trinque so what [21:21]
trinque jurov: eh? [21:21]
danielpbarron i don't want to live in your socialist hell-hole where every man rides the same urine-smelling bus no matter how productive he is [21:21]
trinque jurov: if I had a kid right now I'd be able to pay for it just fine [21:22]
justJanne danielpbarron: it’s not urine-smelling, lol. [21:22]
danielpbarron yet.. [21:22]
justJanne even the 10yo busses aren’t. [21:22]
jurov danielpbarron: go on [21:22]
justJanne because people don’t do that. [21:22]
trinque issue isn't the smell of piss [21:22]
jurov danielpbarron: how we live in north korea [21:22]
trinque justJanne: the issue is your assumption that you have call to involve yourself in my affairs [21:23]
trinque as this aggregate "the people" [21:23]
trinque I say come and take it. [21:23]
justJanne Ah, the english article for "social democracy" is actually wrong [21:23]
* trinque departs for now [21:23]
justJanne please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model instead [21:23]
justJanne that’s what I’m referring to [21:24]
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trinque I will, bbl [21:24]
danielpbarron whatever you're referring to, the monstrosity has 50% tax rate! [21:24]
justJanne 44% here right now. [21:24]
danielpbarron disgusting [21:24]
justJanne and that’s including insurance [21:25]
trinque shit it's effectively 50 in the states too [21:25]
trinque danielpbarron: ^ [21:25]
justJanne and life savings [21:25]
justJanne and retirement funds [21:25]
jurov danielpbarron: you will get separated from your money either way [21:25]
trinque and that's not counting the yearly evaporation of weath through currency debasement [21:25]
danielpbarron what do you mean it includes life savings? [21:25]
justJanne retirement funds, sorry [21:25]
justJanne translation is hard ;P [21:25]
trinque danielpbarron: people can't think for themselves and store away for the future [21:25]
cazalla justJanne, ya know what shit won't be there when you're older, right? [21:25]
danielpbarron right but how does it include that if it's taxes? the government forces you to have a savings plan? [21:25]
trinque so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow those same fools don't inhabit the govt and make sure everyone has savings [21:25]
justJanne kinda, but not. [21:25]
* trinque pulls himself away [21:26]
mats i get that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is they feel [21:26]
mats its a beautiful notion. its also not going to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit the whole thing [21:26]
danielpbarron except it's a very specific shot as per what the normal people voted on [21:26]
justJanne there are some laws: (a) every insurance has to provide a basic plan for the same price, (b) everyone has to have at least this plan, or more [21:26]
mats 'star trek' is a hell for some folks. [21:26]
trinque I'll prefer my firefly class vessel thank you [21:27]
mats yer a leaf on the wind [21:27]
jurov justJanne: do you know what this nordic model did to one Eric Naggum? [21:27]
justJanne mats: Star Trek is heaven, and an amazing solution. Although I’m thinking DS9 Star Trek, not TOS Star Trek [21:27]
assbot AMAZING COMPANY! [21:27]
mats 'solution' [21:27]
trinque mats: goddamn when jayne tears up over his very own riot [21:27]
trinque best tv there ever was [21:27]
mats replace with fantasy, man. [21:27]
justJanne mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real. [21:28]
danielpbarron no wonder you think this can work; you saw it work on TV! [21:28]
mats trinque: its good stuff, i've watched every ep prob a half dozen times [21:28]
justJanne with a combination of free trade (think Quark), and basic life enough for everyone [21:28]
danielpbarron you know star trek is a work of fiction, right? those were all a bunch of professional liars [21:28]
justJanne yes, ofc. [21:28]
danielpbarron i don't think you fully grasp that [21:29]
mats you want free trade, but no monopolies or oligopolies. [21:29]
justJanne although, tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is the larger liar [21:29]
danielpbarron you're the one advocating for politicians [21:29]
justJanne mats: yes. [21:29]
justJanne read the nordic model again ;P [21:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29900 @ 0.00027017 = 8.0781 BTC [-] [21:30]
mats nordic model works because you live in a universe that appears utterly detached from economic reality [21:30]
justJanne the idea is that you have basic life just enough for everyone available, [21:30]
jurov danielpbarron: so you get to keep all your money, i ask again? [21:30]
justJanne and then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for the rest [21:30]
danielpbarron what money? [21:30]
mats because, well, benefits of superior geography. [21:30]
jurov danielpbarron: since you so hate taxes [21:31]
mats where the fuck are you going to raise capital for basic income in somalia? [21:31]
jurov mats leave that to billg [21:31]
mats somalia's not so different from the rest of the world. quite a bit ahead of its time, really [21:31]
danielpbarron justJanne, people who fall on hard times should be compelled into slavery by their more productive neighbors; they should not get to treat the whole community like their undeserved slave [21:31]
danielpbarron jurov, all but 0.1% of it :p [21:32]
justJanne you misuse the word "community" [21:32]
justJanne you can only live, and work, because of the people around you [21:32]
mats shall we talk about monopolies that benefit the commoners? [21:32]
justJanne and the same way the other way round [21:32]
danielpbarron no, I can work and live despite the people around me [21:32]
justJanne ah, the good old "I can live in a cave" defense [21:33]
justJanne I wonder how you’d do without the people taking away your trash, the people putting out the fires, the people cleaning your streets [21:33]
danielpbarron there wouldn't be streets if it were just me [21:33]
danielpbarron the situation would be so entirely different as to be impossible to compare [21:34]
mats lets use the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into the thing, and they pay a pretty penny to be able to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x that) [21:34]
justJanne let’s talk about different, benefitial monopolies. [21:34]
mats without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without the USPS in USA [21:35]
justJanne nah, not really. [21:35]
mats because they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases. [21:35]
mats yes, absolutely really. [21:35]
justJanne DHL makes most of its profit in one single place. [21:35]
justJanne in the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business: [21:35]
justJanne parcel and delivery service in Europe [21:35]
justJanne yes, they can transport a package for 20$ across the continent over night, and make a profit. [21:36]
justJanne sadly, the workers make nothing more than basic income from it [21:36]
danielpbarron sadly? why is that sad? [21:37]
jurov yes, raise minimal wages, fire everyone, replace with machines [21:37]
justJanne no, [21:37]
justJanne it is sad because under your assumptions those people shouldn’t work at all [21:37]
justJanne they make no more money, [21:38]
justJanne and spend their time! [21:38]
mats this is exactly how it is in the US. [21:38]
justJanne Then why do they still work? [21:38]
mats they don't. [21:38]
mats ~8mn draw supplementary security income, for example. [21:39]
mats folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as they are, [21:39]
justJanne So, it's better to provide straight out subsidies than to have minimum wage? [21:39]
justJanne A minimum wage might encourage the company to actually be more efficient. [21:39]
mats would rather take it than work at McDonalds for just shy of a thousand bux a month [21:40]
mats subsidies AND minimum wages are a shit idea. [21:40]
mats you follow? let the market set the conditions. [21:41]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79500 @ 0.00026941 = 21.4181 BTC [-] [21:41]
justJanne Minimum wage doesn't hurt the market. [21:41]
danielpbarron justJanne, a minimum wage prices the cheap labor out of the market (the company will prefer not to hire them at all) [21:42]
justJanne Yes. [21:42]
mats you're high if you think setting a price floor in a market doesn't unduly affect market conditions [21:42]
danielpbarron so instead of making [not enough money], they will make 0. [21:42]
mats its time to give up the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs [21:43]
jurov And high rents and other life costs won't "unduly affect market conditions"? [21:43]
jurov Pls explain [21:43]
* BingoBoingo still imagining tumblr folk brewing their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining the fiat world so... [21:43]
justJanne The median German pays less money for health care than the median US person. [21:44]
justJanne You pay more. And get less. [21:44]
justJanne You have higher taxes, [21:44]
justJanne And less free education or healthcare. [21:44]
justJanne and less welfare. [21:44]
danielpbarron i don't think anyone here is taking the side that the U.S. is a good example of how things should be [21:44]
justJanne It's not a childish fantasy of it's the currently best working system. [21:45]
justJanne If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it. [21:45]
BingoBoingo Nah, go to Ferguson. They have community solidarity!!! [21:45]
danielpbarron it's a population that is still only a couple generations off from having the crap kicked out of it [21:46]
justJanne And if you break your leg and can't work for a month, you starve to death. [21:46]
mats jurov: you addressing me there with the quote? [21:46]
jurov mats, yes [21:46]
danielpbarron justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive that would have otherwise starved to death. They just gotta be humbled by the experience; they aren't entitled to the help. [21:46]
justJanne They are. [21:46]
justJanne Because they played before 59% taxes for others. [21:47]
justJanne *50% [21:47]
mats jurov: i don't follow. so, because rent is high, folks should get a min wage/basic income [21:47]
jurov no mats. i'm saying you're going to be separated from your money either way [21:48]
danielpbarron justJanne, the point being, there are more solutions besides "let starve to death" and "steal from everyone to keep them alive" [21:48]
jurov so it does not make sense to argue either way [21:48]
justJanne danielpbarron: it's not stealing. [21:48]
justJanne If you want, you can move to Togo, or Monsanto City, or the Bahamas. [21:48]
justJanne And, as you stated, you deserve to be punished for being born here. [21:49]
mats it does matter, because govt involvement destroys price efficiency [21:49]
justJanne Not really true, either. [21:49]
justJanne It is often true, [21:49]
mats cost of living being high or wutever is immaterial, i think. [21:49]
justJanne But not necessary. [21:49]
jurov mats, you're not the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement" [21:50]
justJanne Reminds me of Deutsche Bahn. A large railway company. Everything was fine, perfectly on time, cheap, profitable. [21:50]
jurov somehow, nothign came out of that [21:50]
BingoBoingo Eh, Monsanto's no so bad. The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough. [21:50]
justJanne Then they went to stock market and became a private company. [21:50]
justJanne Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on time, expensive, and not much more profitable either. [21:51]
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justJanne Every. Single. Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold to a US investor they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive. [21:52]
justJanne Every. Time. [21:52]
mats i recommend a stint as a govt employee [21:52]
jurov justJanne: it was govt involvement, dotcha know? :DDDD [21:52]
danielpbarron i think the key words in that story are "US investor" [21:52]
justJanne I don't care if the government owns the trains, as long as they are 100% on time, cheap, and fast. [21:53]
danielpbarron even if they are sometimes used to haul off political dissidents? [21:53]
justJanne That is not a part of the discussion. [21:54]
jurov lol, as if private enterprises never hauled political dissidents [21:54]
justJanne If the government rents a train for that (like Hitler did, the companies profited heavily) or if they own them (like the GDR did), changes nothing. [21:54]
justJanne But a governmental monopoly is always better than a private monopoly. [21:55]
jurov that's very bad statement [21:56]
justJanne Not really. [21:56]
danielpbarron that can't be true, and only appears to be because you use the united states as your example of the alternative [21:56]
jurov i have personal memories of govt monopolies in czechoslovakia [21:56]
justJanne And? Were they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly? [21:57]
jurov depends, some. but the is not the problem [21:57]
justJanne Assuming no corruption, [21:57]
jurov when everything is govt monopoly people who need autonomy, mastery and purpose suffer badly [21:58]
justJanne The private monopoly will have an incentive to provide the worst service possible, at the highest possible price. [21:58]
justJanne Yes. [21:58]
justJanne Most of the things need to be a competition, others need to be nonprofit monopolies. [21:59]
danielpbarron what's so bad about "the worst service possible" anyway ? [21:59]
justJanne Like the railway tracks, those can be nonprofit monopolies, while dozens of rail operators can rent them. [21:59]
justJanne danielpbarron: because that's shit? [21:59]
justJanne You want trains that operate every 20 minutes, at 240km/h, for 19€ across Europe, [22:00]
danielpbarron no, your totalitiarian government that forces me to raise my kids the normal way is what's bad [22:00]
justJanne Not shitty stuff. [22:00]
justJanne danielpbarron: you aren't forced to. You can also raise your children at home, ofc. [22:00]
justJanne At full pay. [22:00]
mike_c <+justJanne> Assuming no corruption, << this is where we enter star trek land? [22:00]
justJanne mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless. [22:00]
mike_c exactly [22:00]
justJanne Especially as the amount of corruption is very different on where you are, and when. [22:01]
justJanne But again, the idea of the Nordic model is huge personal freedom, at the same time a stable society that provides a great basis for everyone. [22:02]
justJanne And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US. [22:02]
justJanne Yes, somalia has more personal freedom, but again, try living there. [22:03]
danielpbarron you keep comparing your thing to the US [22:03]
justJanne Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country. [22:03]
danielpbarron shouldn't you compare your thing to my thing? (the thing i'm proposing) [22:04]
justJanne So, perfect free anarchy? [22:04]
justJanne Can you provide a real life example? [22:04]
danielpbarron The Most Serene Republic [22:04]
danielpbarron this channel is the example [22:04]
justJanne We don't accept fictional systems here, only ones that exist in reality. [22:04]
justJanne For this discussion. [22:04]
danielpbarron that's rich coming from a trekkie [22:05]
justJanne As everyone can claim their model would work. [22:05]
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BingoBoingo To be fair Corruption is what makes the world go round [22:05]
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danielpbarron justJanne, your model works for as long as there is fiat money to manipulate [22:06]
danielpbarron which isn't for very much longer [22:06]
justJanne Not necessarily. [22:06]
justJanne The Nordic model works without currency. [22:06]
justJanne And, tbh, here no one cares about bitcoin. [22:06]
danielpbarron but does it work with bitcoin? [22:06]
justJanne Too high transfer fees, too slow transfers. [22:07]
danielpbarron that's ok, bitcoin doesn't care about them either [22:07]
justJanne But yeah, it would work with bitcoin. [22:07]
danielpbarron but you can't get your 50% from me.. [22:07]
justJanne Why not? [22:08]
danielpbarron what is there to take? [22:08]
justJanne Your employer has to send that money to the govt. [22:08]
danielpbarron nobody owns any bitcoin [22:08]
justJanne You never see the 50% [22:08]
danielpbarron suppose my employer doesn't [22:08]
danielpbarron because my employer doesn't have a physical basis of operations [22:08]
justJanne Then you will have to pay them. [22:09]
danielpbarron and he claims juristiction in the Most Serene Republic, and not your joke of a country [22:09]
danielpbarron pay them what? [22:09]
danielpbarron how do you know I have even been paid? [22:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44648 @ 0.00026546 = 11.8523 BTC [-] {2} [22:09]
jurov you don't pay for shelter, food nor transport? [22:09]
justJanne If you earn money in this country, work here (physical place of employer counts), or use your money, it will be taxed. [22:10]
justJanne If you earn your money outside, only use it outside, and so on, [22:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171621 @ 0.00026204 = 44.9716 BTC [-] {3} [22:10]
justJanne You are technically a tourist. [22:10]
danielpbarron why would anyone want to be based out of your country and pay 50% when they can be based out of The Most Serene Republic and pay only 0.1% ? [22:10]
jurov will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident? [22:11]
justJanne The question is: [22:11]
danielpbarron jurov, those services will be provided by WoT members eventually I hope [22:11]
jurov well, i'm not holding my breath there [22:11]
justJanne Why should they live in the serene republic, where your insurance can run off with all your money, when they can live here, and have guaranteed healthcare? [22:12]
danielpbarron it's not a matter of where to live, but where to claim juristiction [22:12]
justJanne Nah. [22:12]
justJanne Where they do their physical work, rent a flat, but food — those things are taxes. [22:13]
danielpbarron but the reason is: keep 49.9% of your income and use the savings to buy healthcare later if you need it [22:13]
justJanne *taxed [22:13]
justJanne And what if you can't afford it at that point? [22:13]
justJanne Your system is flawed. [22:13]
danielpbarron then i become a slave or die i guess [22:13]
justJanne It helps make the rich richer, [22:13]
danielpbarron the rich should be richer [22:13]
justJanne And the poor poorer. [22:13]
danielpbarron the poor should be poorer [22:13]
justJanne But society is people, [22:13]
justJanne And people deserve to be treated equal. [22:14]
danielpbarron no they don't [22:14]
justJanne Then go live in the US. [22:14]
danielpbarron I do [22:14]
danielpbarron it's not what you imagine it is [22:14]
justJanne In a few years, the US will have reached the level of freedom that somalia has. [22:14]
BingoBoingo "people" kinda suck http://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/366c7c/tlc_my_ass/ [22:15]
justJanne Tbh, I like cities where you have to use the bike. [22:16]
justJanne With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically. [22:16]
* joshbuddy has quit (Quit: joshbuddy) [22:16]
justJanne Okay, bbl, it's 3am [22:18]
danielpbarron i ride a bike everywhere in the spring/summer [22:18]
BingoBoingo Bikes don't have a clear niche where the really beat pedestrianism, motorcarriages, or rocket plane [22:18]
justJanne They do. [22:18]
danielpbarron oh they clearly beat walking [22:18]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79745 @ 0.00026136 = 20.8422 BTC [-] [22:19]
* joshbuddy (~josh@wikimedia/Joshbuddy) has joined #bitcoin-assets [22:19]
BingoBoingo I dunno anything beats walking. [22:19]
jurov !up joshbuddy [22:19]
* assbot gives voice to joshbuddy [22:19]
justJanne If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space, [22:19]
justJanne Bike is the only solution. (Or public transport) [22:19]
BingoBoingo Or walk longer, speed is overrated [22:20]
danielpbarron i bike amongst a sea of cars (ct shoreline gets crazy in the summer) [22:20]
justJanne Not helpful at 10-15km distance. [22:20]
BingoBoingo That's not really all that far on foot [22:20]
justJanne Almost all parcel companies, pizza delivery services, etc use bikes Jere for that reason. [22:20]
justJanne BingoBoingo: I walk that much daily, I know. [22:21]
BingoBoingo Sure [22:21]
justJanne Still it's not a distance that makes a car useful, but would be ideal for biking. [22:21]
justJanne Anyway, 3am, bbl [22:21]
danielpbarron car beats bike if money isn't a consideration [22:22]
BingoBoingo http://imperatortempus42.tumblr.com/post/119286272196/punk-con-winnieportleyrind [22:23]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 258100 @ 0.00025836 = 66.6827 BTC [-] {7} [22:24]
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