Forum logs for 17 Mar 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
asciilifeform unrelatedly, [00:05]
asciilifeform continuing levison thread >>> [00:05]
assbot Ladar Levison - As many of you already know, the government cited... ... ( ) [00:05]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00042133 = 8.4266 BTC [+] {2} [00:06]
asciilifeform back to the microdot, [00:08]
asciilifeform b&w photography is ULTRA EASY [00:09]
asciilifeform even in JUNGLE CONDITIONS [00:09]
phf i periodically revisit his page for inspiration, but i suspect that's he's probably some form of northern european anarcho leftist, which now's been fashionable long enough to perhaps swing back to fascism again. in other words he will probably find b-a rhetoric toxic. but i'm guessing from spending much time with other members of that crowd [00:09]
asciilifeform it is the caustics, heavy metals, cleanroom, etc. that suck donkey cock [00:09]
phf for all i know he wear leather boots and listens to martial industrial.. [00:09]
asciilifeform but these possibly can be commoditized into a thing that contains no logic as such [00:09]
asciilifeform but simply takes a piece of film. [00:09]
asciilifeform phf: actually i see him as something more like a lacan who dropped out of physics, or the like [00:10]
mod6 hanbot: hi, cool. probably would have to go back to at least the beginning of this whole hard/soft fork discussion i'd think. [00:11]
punkman "We didn’t see any of this happening,” Ramos said. “They’re saying Michael wanted to kill himself. We just don’t know.” She said that Michael Ford’s mother suffered a heart attack after police in Prince George’s burst into her house to search it following the shooting and that she is now at the same hospital as her son." << we just don't know, lol [00:12]
asciilifeform that makes ... 2? 3? usg-authored corpses in the case now ? [00:13]
asciilifeform 4 ? [00:13]
punkman oh wait I misread heart attack before station shooting [00:13]
mod6 anyway, think it over for a bit. i'll get some coins into the foundation in a few days and then will try to write something up that can be signed. [00:13]
phf "if i cut the tape, he realized, my world will disappear. reality will continue for others, but not for me. because my reality, my universe, is coming to me from this minuscule unit. fed into the scanner and then into my central nervous system as it snailishly unwinds." [00:13]
asciilifeform aha! [00:15]
punkman speakinf of film, I've thought of doing backups on microfilm reels. Small reel holds 5k A4 pages or something. [00:19]
asciilifeform punkman: not sure if i ever viewed a microfilm reel without blots [00:21]
asciilifeform i suppose you could 'turbo code' it (m of n) [00:21]
asciilifeform sorta like folks used to do with cassettes. [00:21]
punkman yeah, some redundancy in the data, plus compression, then OCR [00:22]
punkman which should also work on paper [00:22]
punkman (I mean printed A4 pages) [00:22]
punkman "At 42X Reduction, a 215 ft. Roll of Archive Microfilm will hold approximately 12,300 images" [00:24]
BingoBoingo [00:40]
assbot JL: More Hoodrats, Mom, Please! ... ( ) [00:40]
danielpbarron << how does this relate to more or less "relay work" ? [00:44]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 00:03:15; mircea_popescu: and yet another twistable knob exists : the nonce may be shifted before taking the nonceth element. [00:44]
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BingoBoingo !up liquidbasic [01:06]
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liquidbasic I know nothing [01:07]
funkenstein_ a wise man knows he is a fool [01:14]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9771 @ 0.00042134 = 4.1169 BTC [+] [01:59]
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BingoBoingo [02:34]
assbot VIDEO: Harvard students debate whether whites should kill themselves due to ‘privilege’ | ... ( ) [02:34]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00041975 = 2.4765 BTC [-] {2} [02:50]
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jurov hanbot: it's hard to determine what is obsolete and what isn't in past logs, i'd do only new stuff from now on and go back only following explicit references [05:24]
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davout mircea_popescu kakobrekla would either of you guys veto my application for the job of bitbet receiver? [06:18]
jurov lol such careful approach [06:41]
* jurov pictures davout approaching the snakepit with stick [06:42]
davout jurov: well yes, this looks like an interesting job though! [06:52]
jurov yes, and glad to hear you're interested [06:52]
davout now whether both the involved parties think i'm qualified or not is obviously the first thing to clear up [06:52]
jurov i can't think of any possible serious objections [06:57]
jurov would surprise me if you'd be rejected outright [06:58]
davout that's up to the involved parties, wait and see [06:58]
jurov just the monkey on my back driving my fingers again, i guess. [07:00]
davout obligatory [07:01]
assbot ... ( ) [07:01]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32100 @ 0.00042091 = 13.5112 BTC [-] [08:43]
punkman !t m s.mpoe [08:51]
assbot [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00041975 / 0.00042038 / 0.00042134 (279487 shares, 117.49 BTC), 7D: 0.00041975 / 0.0004784 / 0.00053073 (12107697 shares, 5,792.34 BTC), 30D: 0.00041975 / 0.00055005 / 0.00059897 (70614688 shares, 38,841.89 BTC) [08:51]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24250 @ 0.00041975 = 10.1789 BTC [-] {3} [09:23]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24300 @ 0.00041982 = 10.2016 BTC [+] {3} [09:57]
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mircea_popescu davout i wouldn't, in principle. [10:38]
mircea_popescu i saw you with glasses on once, total accountant look. good enough for me. [10:39]
shinohai [10:40]
assbot ... ( ) [10:40]
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mircea_popescu !up panoddl [10:43]
-assbot- You voiced panoddl for 30 minutes. [10:43]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform to round up yest's discussion of intelligence : if your putative beast that eats its brain does so in an actual maximum point, then the behaviour of eating the brain is intelligent ; if however it does so in a local maximum point that is later within its lifetime invalidated by events, then the same exact behaviour was unintelligent. [10:44]
mircea_popescu this underscores the principal point about intelligence, which is to say that it is an ex post facto construction outside the object, and consequently it can not either be objective, or objectively measured. [10:45]
mircea_popescu considered in general, "naturally" which is to say over an universal domain, "intelligence" is meaningless. [10:45]
mircea_popescu will may give restrictions of domain upon which an intelligence function may be constructed so it's coherent, but this then doesn't provide a method to justify the will upon which the whole construction is based. [10:46]
mircea_popescu this is the fundamental problem of ethics, that you can't have an intelligent justification of will, merely a willful justification of intelligence. [10:46]
mircea_popescu and this is why neither ethics nor iqs are a thing. [10:47]
davout <<< :D [10:47]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 13:40:36; mircea_popescu: i saw you with glasses on once, total accountant look. good enough for me. [10:47]
mircea_popescu now answer the q asked of solrodar if you will. [10:47]
davout refresh my memory? [10:48]
mircea_popescu and following. [10:49]
assbot Logged on 15-03-2016 00:50:59; mircea_popescu: i'm sure somebody somewhere has, why not. anyway : what do you plan to do to maximize shareholder revenue from bitbet assets ? [10:49]
shinohai !s [10:53]
assbot These 42 Bitcoin projects were shutdown by an ongoing DDoS attack : Bitcoin ... ( ) [10:53]
assbot 0 results for '' : [10:54]
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davout that would be three-fold: not charge more than a few percent for the whole liquidation, evaluate all claims against bitbet in light of its actual contract (and more specifically, the 3.2 (d) clause), try to get as much as possible from the non-cash assets, and (quite importantly) not disappear with the cash [10:56]
davout (and yes, that's more than three points) [10:56]
mircea_popescu doesn't tell me much. [10:57]
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mircea_popescu << - >> [10:57]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 02:54:43; asciilifeform: why isn't he here, again?!1111 [10:57]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 02:54:20; asciilifeform: i have not, it turns out, been keeping up with the fella. [10:57]
mircea_popescu i take it's because you were too jwz to have invited him already ? [10:58]
davout mircea_popescu: ask something a bit more specific maybe? [10:59]
mircea_popescu dear god. [10:59]
assbot Logged on 15-03-2016 00:52:46; mircea_popescu: do you have any sort of particular assets that'd likely help ? prior experience in doing this sort of thing (selling online properties) ? connections or otherwise some power putting you above others in some way ? [10:59]
mircea_popescu [11:00]
assbot Logged on 15-03-2016 00:55:05; mircea_popescu: i don't think you take my meaning. have you for instance ever auctioned a domain name successfully ? are you well known in those circles ? anything ? [11:00]
mircea_popescu what did you think & following means ? [11:00]
mircea_popescu there's a list there. don't have to go through it as is, read it, think it through also works. [11:00]
davout well i did get that and read it, but i don't have any particular assets or connections other than my wot and history that put me in a particularly better position than others to do the job [11:01]
mircea_popescu << it is a sin, i will point out, to act today on the basis of an evaluation of tomorrow. please, causes. forget effects. THEY are toxic. [11:01]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 03:10:26; phf: i periodically revisit his page for inspiration, but i suspect that's he's probably some form of northern european anarcho leftist, which now's been fashionable long enough to perhaps swing back to fascism again. in other words he will probably find b-a rhetoric toxic. but i'm guessing from spending much time with other members of that crowd [11:01]
mircea_popescu davout i see! [11:02]
davout so yeah, no particular mention of those non-extant things [11:02]
mircea_popescu much better stated like this than stated like you know, in the fiat wooden tongue. at least for my needs. [11:02]
davout pardon my french [11:02]
mircea_popescu :p [11:03]
mircea_popescu (to explain my thought process to the curious bystander - i would have seriously considered the application of a fiat-based receiver with provable practice but innocent of the wot over solrodar's ; i won't consider such over davout's. this means that in the past coupla days a window for some people to actually make their corpses useful to the world opened and closed - notwithstanding their or anyone else's pretense to [11:04]
mircea_popescu the contrary.) [11:04]
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davout bbl [11:06]
mircea_popescu << hence all the soviet youth's photo labs. [11:09]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 03:10:22; asciilifeform: even in JUNGLE CONDITIONS [11:09]
mircea_popescu phf for my curiosity, what's your classification of "b-a rhetorics" ? anarcho-neoliberal ? deco-existentialist ? [11:10]
mircea_popescu ;;google liber-schimbist [11:11]
gribble Party of Free Change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; 10 Ridiculous Political Parties You Won't Believe Got Elected ...: ; liber - Wikționar: [11:11]
mircea_popescu << pretty lulzy. [11:21]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 03:14:29; asciilifeform: that makes ... 2? 3? usg-authored corpses in the case now ? [11:21]
mircea_popescu << you mean he didn't move to argentina ?! [11:21]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 03:15:03; phf: "if i cut the tape, he realized, my world will disappear. reality will continue for others, but not for me. because my reality, my universe, is coming to me from this minuscule unit. fed into the scanner and then into my central nervous system as it snailishly unwinds." [11:21]
mircea_popescu i'm shocked. SHOCKED! i say! [11:21]
mircea_popescu << you';re better off with digital storage than analogic. even for the narrow cases where analogic usually wins (film archival) it's on the grounds of "preserving the original item, which was analogic rather than transform it in some manner the lossy-ness of which we can't evaluate", nothing more. [11:23]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 03:25:18; punkman: "At 42X Reduction, a 215 ft. Roll of Archive Microfilm will hold approximately 12,300 images" [11:23]
jurov punkman: you can use [11:24]
assbot Twibright Optar ... ( ) [11:24]
mircea_popescu << if the nonce is not shifted at all, each digest is good for exactly one nonce. if the nonce is shifted one bit, each digest is good for 2 nonces. if it is shifted 10 bits, 1024 nonces. etc. [11:25]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 03:45:31; danielpbarron: << how does this relate to more or less "relay work" ? [11:25]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron an important point to consider is the data & i/o meaning of "1 petahash". if each single hash requires 256 bits of data to proceed, you are looking at 32 petabytes of data that has to move. in a second ? ouch. [11:26]
mircea_popescu i mean i know gavin-moore law will "fix this in the future", of course, but this isn't how engineering works. [11:31]
mircea_popescu in fact, that's eactly how engineering ISN'T done. [11:31]
mircea_popescu << ahahaha. [11:31]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 04:08:30; liquidbasic: I know nothing [11:31]
mircea_popescu ;;google know-nothings [11:31]
gribble Know Nothing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Know-Nothing party | political party, United States | ; Freedom: A History of US. Webisode 8: Who's Land is This?. - PBS: [11:31]
mircea_popescu << they should at least wear those cute see through frilly socks! if they can't go all the way to [11:39]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 05:35:22; assbot: VIDEO: Harvard students debate whether whites should kill themselves due to ‘privilege’ | ... ( ) [11:39]
assbot ... ( ) [11:39]
mircea_popescu "The suburbs are doomed. Go rural or stay urban, where you at least have structurally defensible enclaves, as opposed to getting caught in the suburban net that was designed to put you at the mercy of teenage criminals when you are in your eighties." << to the uncharitable eye it'd seem south africa was actually an experiment rather than happenstance. [11:49]
mircea_popescu << he has a good point. [11:52]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 08:25:22; jurov: hanbot: it's hard to determine what is obsolete and what isn't in past logs, i'd do only new stuff from now on and go back only following explicit references [11:52]
asciilifeform << this puts you in the lulzy position of saying the same for, e.g., voltage. [11:52]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 13:46:44; mircea_popescu: this underscores the principal point about intelligence, which is to say that it is an ex post facto construction outside the object, and consequently it can not either be objective, or objectively measured. [11:52]
asciilifeform or even mass. [11:52]
mircea_popescu how does it do that ? [11:52]
mircea_popescu yes, mass. see qm. [11:52]
asciilifeform well, 'ex post facto measurement.' [11:52]
asciilifeform aha [11:52]
asciilifeform nevertheless these are essential engineering abstractions. [11:52]
mircea_popescu IF you can stay carefully out in a domain where the newtonian approximation is close enough, THEN you'll be ok with that idea of intelligence. [11:53]
mircea_popescu however, it appears pretty narrow. [11:53]
asciilifeform sure. [11:53]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform just because one whore was easy doesn't mean all whores are going to be as easy. [11:53]
mircea_popescu and this one particular whore seems hell bent on making life miserable. [11:54]
asciilifeform hm? [11:54]
mircea_popescu yes, mass you can presume you'll fuck for a cracker. [11:54]
mircea_popescu intelligence ? dear god. [11:54]
asciilifeform we have a pretty good handle on stupidity though. [11:55]
asciilifeform largely i work with ~it~ [11:56]
asciilifeform not intelligence. [11:56]
mircea_popescu maybe. [11:56]
asciilifeform << he walked out of my cache. now back in. i am considering writing to him, but probably i am no good at this, none of the folks thus far to whom i wrote, showed up. [11:57]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 13:59:23; mircea_popescu: i take it's because you were too jwz to have invited him already ? [11:57]
asciilifeform << i have right here ! [11:58]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 14:10:22; mircea_popescu: << hence all the soviet youth's photo labs. [11:58]
asciilifeform doesn't everyone!??!1111 [11:58]
asciilifeform << original thread was about AUDITABLE devices [11:59]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 14:24:58; mircea_popescu: << you';re better off with digital storage than analogic. even for the narrow cases where analogic usually wins (film archival) it's on the grounds of "preserving the original item, which was analogic rather than transform it in some manner the lossy-ness of which we can't evaluate", nothing more. [11:59]
asciilifeform as in, photo has ~no state. [12:00]
asciilifeform no hidden 'will flip if xyz' functionality possible. [12:00]
mircea_popescu oh hey check it out, wikipedia manages a 5k word article on "allied invasion of sicily" without the words "cosa nostra", "mafia" or "vizzini". way to go, history by the retards, for the retards, a complete pie! [12:03]
mircea_popescu anyways asciilifeform : ever heard of one calogero vizzini ? [12:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform check it out, your idea of "auditable" maps exactly on my idea of "clearsign" yet you had trouble digesting that ?!?!?!?! [12:03]
asciilifeform i dun see ? [12:05]
asciilifeform clearsign involves magic words that break the flow of events [12:06]
asciilifeform which imho is retarded. [12:06]
mircea_popescu i can print it and have my slaves verify it by hand. [12:06]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu wrote about how s&m with 'safeword' is retarded [12:06]
asciilifeform he oughta understand? [12:06]
mircea_popescu notwithstanding that magic words are retarded. [12:07]
asciilifeform you can have as easily the slaves print out nonclearsigned (magic header, vs magic inband) and verify. [12:07]
asciilifeform in hex if you like. [12:07]
asciilifeform and in fact this is POINTEDLY easier. [12:07]
asciilifeform because they do not need to transform the payload. [12:08]
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asciilifeform only hash it. [12:10]
mircea_popescu and YOU can just as well have a trusted computer to print out the digital store. [12:11]
asciilifeform << city is 'defensible' if the city is stalingrad, and 'defend' can include 'destroy', and red army is flying in supplies. [12:11]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 14:51:01; mircea_popescu: "The suburbs are doomed. Go rural or stay urban, where you at least have structurally defensible enclaves, as opposed to getting caught in the suburban net that was designed to put you at the mercy of teenage criminals when you are in your eighties." << to the uncharitable eye it'd seem south africa was actually an experiment rather than happenstance. [12:11]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform he means something very specific by "structurally defensive enclaves". [12:11]
asciilifeform are these folks really imagining they will defend in a siege from a row house ? [12:12]
mircea_popescu it's a concept more correctly derived from crystallography, of which he's unaware : [12:12]
mircea_popescu amorphous pockets the energy of resolution for which exceeds the destruction energy for the crystal. [12:12]
asciilifeform warsaw ghetto ? [12:12]
mircea_popescu yes, it's delusional. but it's what he means. [12:12]
mircea_popescu and in the domain he knows how to contemplate, he is correct. [12:13]
mircea_popescu "correct like the jews". should be a trope. [12:13]
asciilifeform it works - for a spell - against waffen ss, but not king hunger. [12:13]
mircea_popescu "what could POSSIBLY happen if we badmouth and boycott german goods ?" [12:13]
mircea_popescu "i dunno, maybe most of you die in a large pit fire ?" [12:13]
mircea_popescu "WHAT!111!" [12:13]
mircea_popescu but the most interesting of all these threads - ever heard of one calogero vizzini ? [12:14]
asciilifeform btw the crystal concept has applications even in orcdom [12:16]
asciilifeform small arms 'demilitarized' for museums sometimes have lead poured into the barrel [12:16]
asciilifeform idea being that if you heat it to melt the lead out, you destroy the temper. [12:16]
mircea_popescu so it does. it's one of those bits of reality that keeps repeating. [12:16]
asciilifeform aha [12:17]
asciilifeform 'we had to destroy the village in order to save it' (tm) (r) [12:17]
mircea_popescu amputations still occur. [12:17]
asciilifeform aha. [12:18]
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asciilifeform an i am, approx., a pro amputator. [12:18]
asciilifeform little else. [12:18]
asciilifeform << moar lulz [12:21]
assbot Isis executes six ‘spies’ in Iraq accused of leaking militants’ details | Middle East | News | The Independent ... ( ) [12:21]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how come nobody seems to get impaled in the arab lands ? assyrians, iirc, are thought to have ~invented~ the fucking stake!111 why no impale ?!11 [12:22]
mircea_popescu how would i know! [12:24]
asciilifeform who if not mircea_popescu would know!11 [12:24]
mircea_popescu these two can coexist. [12:24]
asciilifeform apparently. [12:24]
mircea_popescu anyway, impalement is what i'd do. established absolute ruler of great power and etc. isis isn't that, just a swarming mob. of course they prefer beheadings, manlier. [12:24]
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mircea_popescu once they get an actual suleyman, impalements have a better chance. [12:25]
asciilifeform hm yeah, crowd gotta hold still long enough to enjoy an impalement [12:25]
asciilifeform no such thing in the orc lands. [12:25]
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danielpbarron << still having a hard time with this. Wouldn't shifting the nonce just leave you with another nonce? I don't understand how it would line up with multiple nonces.. [12:30]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 14:26:26; mircea_popescu: << if the nonce is not shifted at all, each digest is good for exactly one nonce. if the nonce is shifted one bit, each digest is good for 2 nonces. if it is shifted 10 bits, 1024 nonces. etc. [12:30]
asciilifeform << holy fuck, srsly?! mircea_popescu would let somebody liquidate the 750 coin, and try to pay the bettors in fiat, with kyc crapolade, etc. ?!!!11 [12:31]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 14:05:47; mircea_popescu: (to explain my thought process to the curious bystander - i would have seriously considered the application of a fiat-based receiver with provable practice but innocent of the wot over solrodar's ; i won't consider such over davout's. this means that in the past coupla days a window for some people to actually make their corpses useful to the world opened and closed - notwithstanding [12:31]
asciilifeform or is there some ~other~ wotless 'proven practice' i don't know about. [12:31]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform ah, no. they'd have to get in wot and follow teh rules, of course. [12:44]
mircea_popescu and if i hire an immigrant irishman as a carpenter, that STILL means he's gonna carpent in fucking new york, not that i'm paying his passage back to dublin to make me some doors and window frames there. wtf. [12:44]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron let's work an example. say the nonce is 7. this means hash1=f(header+7) and hash2 = g(digest(7)+7) [12:46]
mircea_popescu if in fact a shift by 2 was in effect, it'd be the case that hash1=f(header+7) and hash2 = g(digest(1)+1) [12:47]
mircea_popescu hash2 would have been the same for all nonces over 3, ie, 4, 5, 6 and 7. it'd have also been the same for all nonces under 4, ie, 0, 1, 2 and 3. [12:47]
mircea_popescu this means you get to do 4 old style hashings for each new style digest you calculate. [12:47]
mircea_popescu this because 2 bits = 2^2 = 4. had the shift been 17 bits, then you'd get to do 2^17 = 131072 old style hashings for each new style digest you calculate. [12:49]
danielpbarron how do you get to 1 from a shift of 2 away from 7? [12:49]
mircea_popescu 7 is 111 in binary. [12:49]
mircea_popescu 0111 shifted 2 is 0001 [12:49]
danielpbarron aha [12:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00042133 = 6.657 BTC [+] {2} [13:14]
deedbot- [Daniel P. Barron] The New Bitcoin - [13:17]
mircea_popescu mod6 ^ ? [13:19]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron you know i think comments are somehow broken ? i push teh button, nothing happens. [13:26]
davout ;;isup [13:26]
gribble is down [13:26]
davout danielpbarron: ^ [13:26]
danielpbarron dang [13:28]
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danielpbarron pogo really shouldn't be used for this purpose :< [13:28]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: what os on the pogo? [13:40]
asciilifeform what httptron? [13:40]
mircea_popescu well, since alf doesn't want to engage the failure modes of "we know what stupidity is", let's just leave reference to perhaps the best folkloric work of all time, [13:41]
assbot Full text of "Opere complete di Giuseppe Pitrè.." ... ( ) [13:41]
mircea_popescu and call it good. [13:41]
danielpbarron asciilifeform, arch linux, apache2 [13:43]
mircea_popescu nah, nginx. [13:43]
danielpbarron << in case it goes down again [13:43]
assbot The New Bitcoin – Daniel P. Barron ... ( ) [13:43]
mircea_popescu apache really dun work for this purpose. [13:43]
danielpbarron your comment is approved although i did that after the archive [13:43]
mircea_popescu ah it made it through ? cool. [13:43]
asciilifeform danielpbarron: ick systemd [13:44]
danielpbarron i know it sucks [13:44]
asciilifeform and i had it, it was a turd [13:44]
asciilifeform forget about it [13:44]
asciilifeform build my portatron [13:45]
danielpbarron if i'm gonna move off a pogo i'll use gentoo on whatever the replacement is [13:45]
asciilifeform it - worx [13:45]
asciilifeform pogo is spiffy [13:45]
danielpbarron just so happens i had arch on pogo already set up, so it was the easiest to get blog going on [13:45]
asciilifeform no need to move. [13:45]
danielpbarron is it possible to do gentoo on pogo? [13:46]
asciilifeform 'don't eat from dumpsters' (tm) (r) (mp) [13:46]
asciilifeform sure. [13:46]
danielpbarron i think if i enable caching the pogo might survive all those hits at once better [13:47]
asciilifeform when i tried the arch, systemd would hose the box ~weekly [13:47]
asciilifeform or if you actually put load on it [13:47]
mircea_popescu seems to be how it goes lol. [13:48]
davout danielpbarron: i reddit'd your piece for increased pogotron ddos lulz [14:01]
davout danielpbarron: i may have an old ipnohe lying around if you ever feel like upgrading your blawg's hosting [14:02]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron you know, it occurs to me your idea to run a webserver on pogo may actually be very valuable. [14:03]
mircea_popescu see if you manage to apply alf's thing and if it runs well. if it does, a next step you can take is : [14:04]
mircea_popescu see if your isp is willing to give you a c block / upgrade your connection. buy a coupla bridges of 32 or 64, make a high voltage rectifier thingee, and power a bunch of boxes [14:04]
mircea_popescu people would prolly be willing to pay a few dollars /mo to rent an ACTUAL physical box, which means you can take a few hundred in exchange for a not-unreasonable upfront expenditure. [14:05]
mircea_popescu and since you have the wot at your disposal most of the costs involved in low end hosting (ie, keeping the scum out) you're insulated from. [14:06]
mircea_popescu if it can run an obscure wp blog, it certainly can run a bnc or whatever other such thing. much better security model than "i pay 20 dollars to dc hosted" [14:07]
danielpbarron yeah i got another pogo doing my irc client; it was also doing my old non-wp website [14:11]
mircea_popescu (by a high voltage rectifier thingee i mean that iirc pogos draw 4.5 V dc. a > kv rectifier diode is twenty bucks or something, you can make yourself an item you plug into the wall and it feeds 100 pogos arranged in series out of maybe a hundy.) [14:11]
danielpbarron actually the irc one is the lesser non-sata pogo [14:11]
danielpbarron using an sd card for the userland, and in two cases both had the filesystem corrupted, which is why I had to try it on my sata-style pogo [14:12]
mircea_popescu 320V DC out of wall socket is a electronics 101 project ever since the times of hte b&w photo clubs. [14:14]
asciilifeform series?!11111 [14:20]
mircea_popescu yes ? [14:21]
mircea_popescu how do you call it, add voltage, same current ? [14:21]
asciilifeform so whole lot can die cascade death when one shorts ?!! [14:21]
mircea_popescu eh, so you fuse it, big whoop. [14:21]
asciilifeform fuse dun work this way. [14:21]
mircea_popescu if one in 100 shorts you get a 1% increase, which they don't care anyway. [14:21]
asciilifeform fuse is for overcurrent. [14:21]
mircea_popescu yes ? [14:21]
asciilifeform not overvoltage. [14:21]
mircea_popescu there's overvoltage fuse also! [14:22]
asciilifeform and if one opencircuits ? [14:22]
asciilifeform sorry, this is nutso. [14:22]
mircea_popescu if one opencircuits what ? [14:22]
asciilifeform even in analogue world, this is no longer a thing. [14:22]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: then whole thing stops [14:22]
mircea_popescu so ? [14:22]
asciilifeform so this is retarded. [14:22]
mircea_popescu you throw it ouyt and big deal. [14:22]
asciilifeform and it isn't as if these don't come with a civilized 12v regulated brick. [14:23]
phf mircea_popescu: i take rhetoric as separate from message. b-a rhetoric is firmly in asshole tradition, i.e. strong statements and the listener has an option to find the subtle point. [14:24]
asciilifeform so wtf [14:24]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform would you stop getting in the way of people doing things omigerd. [14:24]
mircea_popescu i'm going to power 100x 12 v transformers because wut, "i can't make things - gotta use chinese made!!1" [14:24]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: why the FUCK to do this?!111 good way to nuke a dozen or two nonrenewable resource pogotrons [14:24]
asciilifeform thing eats REGULATED 12v [14:24]
asciilifeform srsly [14:24]
mircea_popescu so he sees if he likes fucking with hardware. [14:24]
asciilifeform why not ~usefully~ fuck [14:25]
asciilifeform e.g., reattache the missing sata plugs to the cheapo pogo version [14:25]
asciilifeform *reattach [14:25]
mircea_popescu because you gotta start with easy. [14:25]
mircea_popescu this is an eery repeat of the chicken story, somehow. [14:25]
mircea_popescu who the FUCK cares about fucking chickens already! [14:25]
asciilifeform what's easier than soldering a plug into a pre-prepped landing pad ? [14:26]
mircea_popescu this brave new libertard world that "holds people as the greatest value", i am so sick of it! [14:26]
asciilifeform wawat [14:26]
mircea_popescu phf methinks you may be alone in that interpretation. i for instance don't do the whole "accept as fairitale" thing. [14:26]
danielpbarron recall i already did the soldering thing to make adulterated pogo [14:26]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform let the man burn pogos. i will not change man to protect pogos. wtf. [14:27]
asciilifeform if yer gonna burn pogos, why not usefully, see how much overclock the thing can take, or see if you can upgrade the ram [14:28]
asciilifeform (quite nontrivial) [14:28]
mircea_popescu your idea of usefully is centered on the thing. [14:28]
mircea_popescu it is a sickening display. [14:28]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: when you invite folks for target practice, which piece do you let them fire ? the luger, penny a round, or the rare borschardt 1890 where each round has to be bought from museum ? [14:29]
phf mircea_popescu: which interpretation? i'm saying that the way arguments are presented here is essentially "this is how it is, and you're an idiot for not grokking" as opposed to some other, perhaps subtler, forms of rhetoric [14:29]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i will remind you i am the one who plans to buy the ancient collection of chinese miniature emperors on rice beads [14:30]
mircea_popescu and make it pilaf. [14:30]
mircea_popescu phf ah, like that. [14:30]
phf european leftists have been inexplicably at war with trolling (which is a 180 change from how it was in the 90s and prior), somehow went from CRASS to respecting each others feelings, so takes some conscious effort to court some from that circle [14:30]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: exciting [14:30]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: but i think isis stole your idea [14:31]
mircea_popescu a well. [14:31]
mircea_popescu anyway. powering a bunch of pogos in the discussed way is neither terribly difficult nor terribly risky. it does require some reading, of course. and it does deviate from "how things are done", which is a major asset. [14:31]
asciilifeform street lights used to be powered this way. [14:32]
asciilifeform in 1890s [14:33]
mircea_popescu aha. [14:33]
asciilifeform it sucked. [14:33]
mircea_popescu shut up, if we end up back in 1890 you'll be thankful for dpb. [14:33]
asciilifeform who do i call if i end up in 1790 ? [14:33]
mircea_popescu give me some time. [14:33]
mircea_popescu phf that change, incidentally, makes me completely discount the euro "left" movement. [14:35]
phf yes [14:36]
mircea_popescu they stand for exactly nothing ; one generation switch can change any major tenet. [14:36]
mircea_popescu might as well care what the "fashion world" thinks. [14:36]
mircea_popescu which, incidentally, is EXACTLY what they are. the fashion world of ugly chicks and insecure betas. [14:36]
asciilifeform i thought this was obvious ? [14:37]
asciilifeform and, these folks have been adrift since the kgb financing dried up. [14:37]
mircea_popescu well obvious or not now it's also stated. [14:37]
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phf i thought there was some cool shit, RAF for example had a very practical nazi beurocrat cleaning program [14:38]
mircea_popescu are you talking 50s ?! [14:39]
phf problem with being autodidact, 50s look as close as yesterday [14:39]
asciilifeform ^^^ [14:40]
* mircea_popescu jew-york handwaves [14:40]
asciilifeform i have whole shelf of 1950s b00kz in 'computing' section of my library. they are spiffy & useful. [14:41]
asciilifeform and contain actual technical material, not only maths, not found elsewhere [14:41]
asciilifeform (e.g., description of how magnetic recording actually happens, the material aspects of the media, etc0 [14:42]
asciilifeform ) [14:42]
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asciilifeform items like, e.g., delay line storage, crt memory, etc. also. [14:43]
asciilifeform things we may well come back to, If This Goes On [14:43]
asciilifeform incidentally, physical quality of books in the english world peaked some time in 50s. [14:44]
asciilifeform in other lulz, [14:45]
asciilifeform [14:45]
assbot Botched Java patch leaves millions vulnerable to 30-month-old attack | Ars Technica ... ( ) [14:45]
asciilifeform moar lulz from same rag, [14:47]
assbot NSA refused Clinton a secure BlackBerry like Obama, so she used her own | Ars Technica ... ( ) [14:47]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform> what's easier than soldering a plug into a pre-prepped landing pad ? << ANYTHING that doesn't involve "pre-prepped". what's easier than marrying this girl your mommy splayed out on the bed for you ??? [14:49]
mircea_popescu jesus. [14:49]
mircea_popescu phf thinking about it, i think the switch has a lot to do with their delusional notion that they're somehow now in power. [14:51]
asciilifeform so when $random-ba-visitor proposes doing something idiotic with financitronics, mircea_popescu says 'this is moronic' and this is a-ok, because financitronics is a mircea_popescu-competence. when i say 'this is moronic' and subj is electronics, then i am on crack? [14:52]
asciilifeform this makes sense to anyone ? [14:52]
asciilifeform sorry, series power supply for digital apparatus is dumb. [14:53]
mircea_popescu a) i've on many occasions said, "this is stupid but will be instructive, proceed" ; b) you think this is about production, which it isn't, it's educational. [14:53]
asciilifeform well i suppose from some angle ~anything~ is educational. [14:53]
asciilifeform let folks learn by pissing on electric fence, wahtever. [14:53]
mircea_popescu and from that same angle, the value of tmsr engineer is g(value of burned pogos) [14:53]
asciilifeform sure. [14:53]
asciilifeform burn, burn. [14:54]
mircea_popescu and the same EXACT arguments you use could be used to persuade me (or at least a dumber version) to use java instead of tinyscheme. [14:54]
mircea_popescu but the EXACT same. [14:54]
mircea_popescu "hey, it's not done like that since the 50s! the 50s sucked!" [14:54]
mircea_popescu etc. [14:54]
phf exactly same arguments i'd use to convince someone to use tinyscheme i can use to convince ~myself~ to use java.. [14:55]
mircea_popescu lol show this ? [14:57]
asciilifeform and with same hammer, pound in nail, or skull, aha [14:58]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform if you're either bored or butthurt [14:58]
mircea_popescu enough about this matter : [14:58]
mircea_popescu get a customizable power bridge, link pogo, see how much it'll take before it falls over. [14:59]
mircea_popescu by now the bricks are so shitty, and tolerance so easy, it's surprising what "digital apparatus" takes in terms of abuse. [14:59]
mircea_popescu much more than analog apparatus of a century ago, that's for damn sure. [14:59]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: one of the other things about 'take rectifier and power 10 - or 20 in eu - in series' is that you get one of the problems of the chinese bricks, but in spades: ripple [15:00]
asciilifeform good dc brick has rectifier + large filter cap [15:00]
asciilifeform chinese - only the former [15:00]
mircea_popescu nothing prevents you from spending the 35 bucks for a roll of 100 caps. [15:00]
asciilifeform 1 big. [15:00]
mircea_popescu eh, he CAN make a better series arrangement than what the brick does. for srs. [15:01]
mircea_popescu such is the power of artizanship in this day of industrial decay. [15:02]
jurov lmao mp publicly plots to kill danielpbaron by suggesting him to work with 300V directly from tap? [15:02]
mircea_popescu eh get out ; if he has a tv set he has 2kv or some shit in the house already. [15:03]
asciilifeform and say he wants to switch one off ? [15:03]
mircea_popescu who died ? [15:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform why would he want that ? [15:03]
mircea_popescu (think about it - do you recall your ONLY complaint to date re dcs ? do you ? hm ?) [15:03]
jurov yay 2kv, why not? moar pogos at once!!! [15:04]
mircea_popescu jurov careful with the mw unit also. some of those - 10kv! [15:04]
asciilifeform jurov: 100kV !111 [15:05]
asciilifeform connect directly to street transformer!11 [15:05]
jurov yes, why not steal from outdoor 60kV line diretly? [15:05]
asciilifeform aha [15:05]
asciilifeform l0l [15:05]
* mircea_popescu jew-york waves AGAIN [15:05]
mircea_popescu eeeeeeh! [15:06]
* asciilifeform pictures jacob's ladder in series with pogo rack [15:06]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9803 @ 0.00042123 = 4.1293 BTC [-] [15:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5697 @ 0.00041994 = 2.3924 BTC [-] {2} [15:37]
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BingoBoingo danielpbarron: i may have an old ipnohe lying around if you ever feel like upgrading your blawg's hosting << I suggested "edgerouter lite" more OSen available than pogo to pick from [16:25]
trinque deedbot-: [16:27]
assbot ... ( ) [16:27]
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trinque deedbot-: [16:30]
assbot ... ( ) [16:30]
deedbot- accepted: 1 [16:30]
trinque good bot [16:30]
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trinque alrighty! trb wallet deedbug fixed. [16:40]
trinque the problem was txn malleation, which confuses the wallet [16:40]
trinque thx to mod6 for the highs lows patch, using lows is helping deedbot- keep track of his dust [16:40]
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mircea_popescu trinque> thx to mod6 for the highs lows patch, using lows is helping deedbot- keep track of his dust << win. [17:22]
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danielpbarron !up Agentzeromobile [17:52]
* assbot gives voice to Agentzeromobile [17:52]
Agentzeromobile Hey thx ! [17:52]
danielpbarron yw, who are you? [17:54]
Agentzeromobile Ag3nt_zer0 [17:55]
trinque ;;seen ag3nt_zer0 [17:55]
gribble ag3nt_zer0 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 8 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: good morning b-a [17:55]
trinque howdy, guy who claims to be ag3nt_zer0 [17:56]
Agentzeromobile Just saw a funny article wanted to post but not sure if I change tabs to copy if I will be disconnected... I'll try here goes... Maybe if I disappear you could revoice me when I come back? [17:56]
Agentzeromobile Hey trinque haha it's me [17:56]
Agentzeromobile [17:57]
assbot Two Years In Prison For Politician Who Bribed Voters With 60-Tonnes Of Fried Chicken ... ( ) [17:57]
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mircea_popescu not exactly news this. [17:59]
mircea_popescu i think i even said soemthing at some point about it. [18:00]
mircea_popescu !up Agentzeromobilea [18:01]
-assbot- You voiced Agentzeromobilea for 30 minutes. [18:01]
* assbot gives voice to Agentzeromobilea [18:01]
Agentzeromobilea Got kicked I think... [18:01]
deedbot- [Qntra] EPA Goes To War Over Pond In Land Grab - [18:01]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo : "EPA Land Grab : War Over Pond!" [18:02]
Agentzeromobilea Oh ok... Searched logs for fried chicken haha... Nothing [18:02]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: ty [18:02]
mircea_popescu wasn't this incident specifically. just, buying off rural/urban poor votes with refined sunflower oil / sugar / bla bla has been going on for decade plus. [18:02]
mircea_popescu not just romania, either. [18:03]
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Agentzeromobilea Mr. Popescu was not an MP then, but was seeking re-election on a local council, reports the Telegraph. Despite it not being a seat in the national parliament Mr. Popescu saw fit to give away 60,992 kg of “grilled chicken”, ordering it in bulk from a local business and sending campaign volunteers to collect and distribute the meat. The prosecutor told the court every package of chicken was “distributed for el [18:03]
Agentzeromobilea Hehe [18:03]
mircea_popescu [18:05]
assbot Logged on 04-03-2016 02:31:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, romanians have been trading votes for years now. go in there with your smartphone, take pic of vote and id card, get 30 lei or w/e [18:05]
mircea_popescu most recent [18:05]
asciilifeform Mr. Popescu was not an MP then, << l0l [18:06]
asciilifeform ^ i can't help but wonder how this reads to peanut gallery ! [18:06]
mircea_popescu lol [18:06]
mircea_popescu anyway, this derp must be new, i have never heard of him. [18:06]
mircea_popescu his career must i guess have started after 2010 [18:07]
Agentzeromobilea Haha [18:07]
mircea_popescu anyway. by and large, the "cleanning out corruption" narrative is what happens to a colonized place, ie, after the top leadership was defeated. [18:08]
mircea_popescu it's how the shit played out in the us ; and the scheme is systematically repeated in every colony of the reich hence. [18:08]
mircea_popescu purging of the middle level. next in line comes the "sensitivity" bs. [18:09]
mircea_popescu if it weren't for the pesky armed insurection, iraq would be "cleanning up corruption" as we speak. [18:09]
mircea_popescu in better looking news, [18:10]
assbot ... ( ) [18:10]
Agentzeromobilea Anyone heard of or looked at this book America Betrayed by Dianne something? [18:11]
Agentzeromobilea It's interesting, unless you are already familiar with this history... Likely in this room... [18:16]
Agentzeromobilea Well good to say hello - thanks for the voicings!... Blessings upon your good works... See you later [18:17]
* Agentzeromobilea has quit (Quit: Page closed) [18:18]
BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [18:22]
gribble Current Blocks: 403124 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 75 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 13 hours, 14 minutes, and 7 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [18:22]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [18:22]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 417.76, vol: 3763.05047867 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 417.0, vol: 5896.82233 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 418.0, vol: 8521.177924850001 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 422.195992, vol: 27240.44380000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 419.58, vol: 2039.12775141 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 422.603935, vol: 35.56503068 | Volume-weighted last average: 420.334635621 [18:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32201 @ 0.00041993 = 13.5222 BTC [-] {2} [18:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23849 @ 0.00041975 = 10.0106 BTC [-] [18:41]
mircea_popescu << re this, i suppose i must point out that whatever i wrote must've been horribly mangled and deeply misunderstood (and i'd love to see exactly what quote ended up reprocessed into this). [18:50]
mircea_popescu the problem with safewords isn't that they're in-band to any degree. the problem with safewords is that they pretend to recast s/M relationships into a circus approximation. the submissive partner may not pretend to option as to when, or as to how the dominant partner extracts his pleasure out of his hide ; nor may (ipso facto inept) third parties purport to misrepresent any sexual relationship in terms other than stuf [18:50]
mircea_popescu f occurring between a submissive and a dominant partner. [18:50]
mircea_popescu "sex with safewords" is sex exactly in the sense the guy playing king richard in a theatrical production is king richard, the historical personage. "sex with safewords" is at best a brat's wet dream, and in general prostitution, in the vein of the pedicurist or hospital nurse's job - but in no case has anything to do with sex, nor can it occur among sane adults. [18:50]
mircea_popescu it's what children do when they want to play house but are affraid of getting caught. [18:50]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 15:08:02; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu wrote about how s&m with 'safeword' is retarded [18:50]
mircea_popescu and oddly related, [18:51]
assbot Logged on 07-11-2015 02:21:19; mircea_popescu: "In the world where the media postulates social media as an absolute requirement of the modern era-- the era where everything is fetishized-- no one is permitted to make the distinction between a value and the picture of a value, they are made equivalent, so daring to criticize Randi's baby pictures is made to sound like misogyny or misobaby. It's not. I love food but if you ask me t [18:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the in-band thing is not as separable from your point as you think. [19:03]
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mircea_popescu this argument is still open. i certainly see what you mean. [19:03]
mircea_popescu but in the end, there's only one band. [19:04]
mircea_popescu the concept of identifiably separate bands is as much a presumption about the "adversary" (properly said, of the context) as anything else. [19:06]
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mircea_popescu notably, the derpy gnupg manual indicates "telephone" as a out-of-band mechanism to verify key fingerprints. is this so ? since when until when ? did it work back when phones were still analog ? does it work now ? why / why not ? etc. [19:07]
asciilifeform header says 'next 1,001 bytes is payload' and NOBODY ASKS PAYLOAD ANYTHING - is like proper sex. [19:07]
asciilifeform magic character escape idiocies, a la clearsign, is 'safeword sex.' [19:07]
mircea_popescu this i can get behind. [19:08]
asciilifeform payload is a passive thing. [19:08]
asciilifeform which is what i've been arguing for all along. [19:08]
mircea_popescu but it is also subtly different from the general band discussion. [19:08]
asciilifeform constraining the contents of the payload is evil. [19:08]
mircea_popescu so no crc for you ? [19:08]
asciilifeform and so is making the unwrapper stateful. [19:09]
asciilifeform crc is a header thing. [19:09]
mircea_popescu mno, crc is part of the payload ? [19:09]
asciilifeform nope./ [19:09]
asciilifeform it is a function ~of~ the payload. [19:09]
mircea_popescu i suppose it necessarily can be put in the header huh. [19:09]
asciilifeform the latter can be arbitrary. [19:09]
mircea_popescu myeah, ok. [19:09]
asciilifeform the -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- crud is ~exactly~ a safeword. [19:10]
asciilifeform and especially so are the - ----- idiocies. [19:10]
asciilifeform and the winblowzated newlines. [19:10]
mircea_popescu hey, i'm not defending any of that. [19:11]
asciilifeform that's what clearsign is ! [19:11]
asciilifeform you necessarily cannot have it without such things. [19:11]
mircea_popescu why not ? put a proper fucking header in there! [19:11]
mircea_popescu this is where we left this discussion last time! [19:11]
asciilifeform does fat lot of good given that just about all software mutilates line endings. [19:12]
mircea_popescu here. first line, the line index where signature begins. second line, the line index where payload begins. third line, the line count of the whole shebang. [19:12]
mircea_popescu done. [19:12]
mircea_popescu this is no excuse. fuck bad software. [19:12]
mircea_popescu i will NOT take bad implementations of ANYTHING into consideration when designing anything. [19:12]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i distinctly recall suggesting a scheme quite like this. [19:13]
mircea_popescu otherwise it's two steps to "but mp, some people are stupid, what should they do!" [19:13]
asciilifeform it pointedly does NOT cover the case of signing non-printables. [19:13]
mircea_popescu "fuck them, cook them and serve them to the pigs. fuck i care." [19:13]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform there may not exist "nonprintables". as per your own theory! [19:13]
asciilifeform i wanna sign a tarball. or gif. now what. [19:13]
asciilifeform non-7bitclean. [19:13]
asciilifeform where there are no 'lines'. [19:14]
mircea_popescu hash it and sign that. [19:14]
asciilifeform no good. [19:14]
asciilifeform we end up signing a hash of a human-readable hash [19:15]
mircea_popescu huh ? [19:15]
asciilifeform think. [19:17]
asciilifeform you are narrowing your set. [19:17]
asciilifeform which, in the case of a wonderful thing like keccak, is entirely no good. [19:17]
asciilifeform and even in the case of sha2 is a waste. [19:18]
asciilifeform it is entirely like whitening. [19:18]
mircea_popescu i'm not about to give out the only workable way to make contracts since the fucking hansa [19:18]
mircea_popescu so some shitboxes can do things with "code". [19:18]
asciilifeform who said 'give out' [19:18]
asciilifeform just has to be planted in a sane framework [19:18]
mircea_popescu how are you going to preserve my clearsign ? [19:18]
asciilifeform rather than the mutilatory lunacy. [19:18]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: same way we preserve anything, you gotta figure out what aspects are actually essential to the thing, and which - are really accidents [19:18]
mircea_popescu i can tell you. the text and the seal in the same place. [19:19]
asciilifeform what means 'same place'. [19:19]
mircea_popescu so no conveyance of one is possible without the other. [19:19]
asciilifeform this is not actually true of gpg clearsign [19:19]
asciilifeform i.e. any idiot can cut off the sig and convey payload without it [19:19]
asciilifeform and ditto the opposite [19:20]
mircea_popescu sure. any idiot can also cut off his head. so ? [19:20]
asciilifeform but what specifically do you mean here [19:20]
asciilifeform how is this a possible thing at all ? [19:20]
mircea_popescu this "separate signature" thing is an abomination. [19:20]
asciilifeform the signature is always physically separate [19:20]
asciilifeform though hm [19:21]
mircea_popescu in the sense your ballsac is physically separtate from your penis. [19:21]
mircea_popescu anyway, i'm going to speak at a whore's convention. will bbl. [19:21]
mircea_popescu hopefully. [19:21]
asciilifeform actually! [19:21]
asciilifeform distribute the exponentiated payload !111111 [19:21]
asciilifeform ding. [19:21]
asciilifeform solved. [19:21]
asciilifeform tell it to the whores!1111 [19:21]
asciilifeform however you cannot cat this to a line printer. [19:25]
asciilifeform this is intrinsic. [19:25]
asciilifeform and pretending otherwise is lunacy. [19:25]
asciilifeform a non-signed item is trivially derived from any signed item. [19:26]
asciilifeform pretending otherwise is what the idiot watermark folks do. [19:26]
asciilifeform !s what color are your bits [19:26]
assbot 2 results for 'what color are your bits' : [19:26]
asciilifeform ^ and copyrasts, etc. [19:26]
asciilifeform bits - have no colour. signature is necessarily a removable wrapper around a payload. [19:27]
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asciilifeform !up gabrielradio [19:32]
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jurov can't we have the signature just slapped to the end of payload? [19:40]
jurov "the goal is to have whole piece" implies it is seekable, thus feasible to scan the file for signatures from the end [19:42]
jurov without any payload mutilations [19:43]
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asciilifeform jurov: how do you know where the end is ?? [19:58]
jurov is a file with some size [19:58]
jurov or we're getting rid of files, too? [19:59]
asciilifeform jurov: this solves nothing, it merely flips the problem on its head [19:59]
asciilifeform how does the pgptron know how big the signature is ? [19:59]
asciilifeform let's say it is at the end. [19:59]
asciilifeform this is just as problematic as agreeing that it is in the beginning of the file! [20:00]
asciilifeform i get it, you can 'dwim' in your head, 'my eyes know how big it is' - but how does THE MACHINE know. [20:00]
jurov this is unsolved problem? [20:01]
asciilifeform this is not a trivial problem, and it has popped up in the past in various guises [20:01]
asciilifeform e.g., the old mac os had dual-forked file system [20:01]
asciilifeform where there was a separate body for 'metadata' and another for what we think of as the file [20:02]
asciilifeform this was, iirc, abolished (though it reappeared in a perverted form in winblowz ntfs) [20:02]
asciilifeform in unix file has name, but also, as everyone knows, epochal date and access perms [20:02]
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asciilifeform these are 'special' in the sense that fs stores them in designated places [20:03]
asciilifeform it is not any more or less retarded than the old mac os forks. [20:03]
asciilifeform but notice, at no point (since the dark ibm mainframe days anyway) did anyone suggest storing the access time, or perms, IN THE FILE proper [20:03]
asciilifeform because this is RETARDED [20:03]
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asciilifeform you can't magic away the 'metadata' thing just by closing your eyes to it. [20:04]
asciilifeform it is an actual thing. [20:04]
jurov m$ office and their ilk does [20:04]
asciilifeform the clinically sad are no concern of mine. [20:04]
asciilifeform 'feed'em to pigz' as mircea_popescu said. [20:04]
jurov so your only "solution" is to force whole world to switch from bags of bytes to structured data? [20:06]
asciilifeform what switch. [20:06]
asciilifeform we already have structure. [20:06]
asciilifeform i propose - SANE STRUCTURE [20:06]
asciilifeform picture fs with a way to attach seals, say [20:06]
asciilifeform instead of idiocies like access time [20:06]
asciilifeform (it isn't useless, but a whole chunk of fs for them?!1) [20:07]
jurov xattrs do exist [20:07]
jurov but we're taling about exchanging stuff over internet [20:07]
jurov *talking [20:07]
asciilifeform aha and for that we do binary formats [20:07]
asciilifeform but mircea_popescu wants his fried ice [20:07]
asciilifeform i.e. something he can cat to a line printer [20:07]
asciilifeform ( ... and then somehow type back in, and have the sig pass ??????) [20:08]
asciilifeform incidentally anybody who actually tries the latter with pgp, is stuck with mutilated line endings [20:08]
asciilifeform because - guess what - a CR/LF, LF, or CR - LOOK THE SAME on the page. [20:09]
asciilifeform and every time i try to explain to him that his notion of 'text' is ill-defined and the actual mechanics, as implemented in unix world and elsewhere, are malignantly retarded [20:10]
jurov i guess he wants to sign semantics, not syntax. [20:10]
asciilifeform then he ought sign s-expressions. [20:11]
asciilifeform where the thing actually gets parsed out before the bignums are exponentiated [20:11]
asciilifeform so, e.g., spaces, are not represented as merely a byte but a #Space [20:12]
asciilifeform this is the ultimate in 'in-band'. mega-ugly. [20:12]
jurov no, he wants everything converted to plain english. maybe even 5-bit code without support for newline characters. [20:13]
jurov and then sign that [20:13]
asciilifeform any way you cut it, trying to use a naked unix terminal for this is lunacy [20:14]
asciilifeform it only APPEARS to work for gpg [20:14]
asciilifeform at the cost of gpg being utterly retarded in 101 ways [20:14]
asciilifeform i.e. [20:15]
assbot Logged on 17-03-2016 22:12:05; asciilifeform: the -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- crud is ~exactly~ a safeword. [20:15]
asciilifeform we need a word for this kind of thing [20:15]
asciilifeform the act of carrying on in a belied that a CONCEPTUALY BUGGY system is a working item [20:16]
asciilifeform merely because you have not explored the edge cases that break it [20:16]
asciilifeform (or, shamefully, explored, or had your face rubbed in them, and then forgot) [20:16]
asciilifeform *belief [20:16]
* asciilifeform bbl. [20:17]
BingoBoingo jurov: how do you know where the end is ?? << You run out of tape and have to flip it to the other side [20:18]
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mod6 got my treeware SICP and ADA ref manual today. [20:30]
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mod6 danielpbarron: thanks for writing that up on your blog. the job is yours if you want it. i'll write up something formal and we can go from there. [20:31]
mod6 be a few days or something. will let you know. cheers! [20:31]
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phf hfs+ still has forks, except now they have some ~monster~ xattr resourcefork hybrid [21:41]
phf befs was tight in that respect, where they blend xattr and file contents, and then build all tools with metadata support upfront, so you could have a folder full of mp3s and they would come up as song-name, song-title, date, etc. [21:42]
asciilifeform << obligatory oldie [21:42]
assbot Loper OS » No Formats, no Format Wars. ... ( ) [21:42]
phf or email for that matter [21:42]
phf beos email client was a thing to download mail and the thing to view/compose. everything else was handled by file manager [21:43]
asciilifeform this was a step towards the Right Thing. [21:44]
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TomServo !up AaronvanW [22:05]
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jurov BingoBoingo: not 100% fresh but should be still qntrable [22:07]
assbot dpaste: 3CYDMQH: qntra ... ( ) [22:07]
danielpbarron mod6, sure thing! [22:13]
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* punkman1 is now known as punkman [23:05]
BingoBoingo ty jurov [23:06]
BingoBoingo should hit the deedbutt shortly [23:06]
* assbot gives voice to punkman [23:06]
deedbot- [Qntra] EU Marching Towards "Helicopter Money" As Other Manipulations Are Exhausted - [23:07]
punkman [23:07]
assbot The Robots Sent Into Fukushima Have 'Died' ... ( ) [23:07]
BingoBoingo In REAL AMERICA news, just for alf [23:13]
punkman jurov: I dun get it [23:13]
BingoBoingo punkman: Don't get what? [23:14]
punkman the article [23:14]
BingoBoingo punkman: European central bank is likely going to do money direct to consumers [23:15]
BingoBoingo OH I stripped out the links [23:15]
asciilifeform lavalulz: [23:15]
assbot [Cryptography] Lavabit's and Snowden's Solos ... ( ) [23:15]
punkman BingoBoingo: yeah that might help [23:15]
BingoBoingo k punkman try nao [23:16]
asciilifeform 'I did fight things out in court. It just occurred in secret, and while a proper description would require the use of vulgarity, I'll summarize by saying I was railroaded. The length of time between when I received the PRTT order, and when I was found in contempt (ex parte) was about 5 weeks. For comparison the /median /time between filing and disposition of a civil contempt charge in federal court during 2013 was 6 /months/.' [23:17]
BingoBoingo "The health department said the fate of the bull would be left to the family." << Note, being a Bull means you get out of USG law racket sometimes [23:17]
asciilifeform 'we are entitled to everyone's plain text data, and if Congress won't give it to us, we'll use our 27.1 billion dollar budget, and army of 100K lawyers to take it in court. Your tax dollars at work.' [23:19]
punkman asciilifeform: plain text? they already had that [23:20]
asciilifeform see link. [23:20]
asciilifeform << designing arbitrarily rad-hard waldo is not so hard - use hydraulic actuators for everything. and what's more, it would ~happen~ if, instead of dead robot leading to a lucrative extension of contract, the designer were marched to clean the reactor ~personally~. [23:26]
assbot Logged on 18-03-2016 02:08:53; assbot: The Robots Sent Into Fukushima Have 'Died' ... ( ) [23:26]
asciilifeform << i kinda wonder re: casualties of bull vs tractor [23:29]
assbot Logged on 18-03-2016 02:15:18; BingoBoingo: In REAL AMERICA news, just for alf [23:29]
BingoBoingo That depends on the will of the bull versus the skill of the tractor [23:29]
BingoBoingo I imagine [23:29]
asciilifeform what do american farmers typically die of on he job? [23:29]
asciilifeform *the [23:29]
BingoBoingo Often they suffocate in silos full of grain and silo gasses [23:30]
asciilifeform boredom? [23:30]
BingoBoingo Or get ripped up by power take offs [23:30]
BingoBoingo ;;google grain silo suffocation [23:31]
gribble Hazard Alert: Dangers of Engulfment and Suffocation in Grain Bins: ; Grain entrapment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Suffocation Hazards in Grain Bins - UK College of Agriculture: [23:31]
asciilifeform i can't speak for the farmers, but i would take the bull over boredom. [23:31]
asciilifeform and in fact, their work over mine. [23:31]
BingoBoingo ;;google pto hazards [23:31]
gribble Hazards of the PTO on Farm Tractors - Alabama Cooperative ...: ; Power Take-Off (PTO) Safety (also available in Spanish ...: ; Know the Dangers of a PTO - Gempler's: [23:31]
BingoBoingo ;;google us farm deaths [23:32]
gribble CDC - Agricultural Safety - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic: ; Death on the Farm - Modern Farmer: ; OSHA Fact Sheet: Farm Safety: [23:32]
asciilifeform << recall the very picturesque lathe accident photos in the logz? [23:33]
BingoBoingo << "His jeans caught on a piece of manure-pumping equipment and, in the blink of an eye, his leg was connected to his torso by a mere inch of flesh. " [23:33]
assbot Logged on 18-03-2016 02:33:01; BingoBoingo: ;;google pto hazards [23:33]
assbot Death on the Farm - Modern Farmer ... ( ) [23:33]
asciilifeform same idea. [23:33]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Well, a tractor's PTO generally provides more power for the mangling [23:34]
asciilifeform there is a mega-classic one of a whole man wrapped up on the lathe, like a rope. [23:34]
asciilifeform just when you thought you've seen every possible mangled corpse - surprise!!1111 [23:35]
BingoBoingo !s lathe accident [23:35]
assbot 0 results for 'lathe accident' : [23:35]
asciilifeform hm. [23:36]
asciilifeform googleimages it. [23:36]
asciilifeform (or not.) [23:36]
BingoBoingo I'll get around to it [23:38]
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deedbot- [Qntra] Woe: Getting Business Internet A Challenge In Heart Of Silicon Valley - [23:57]
Category: Logs
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