Forum logs for 17 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

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thestringpuller	decentralized bitbet?	[00:03]
thestringpuller	http://augur.link/augur.pdf	[00:03]
danielpbarron	such a thing is not possible; there needs to be an arbiter to decide if a bet has resolved yes or no	[00:05]
thestringpuller	but that's what oracles are for	[00:07]
asciilifeform	'A key feature of Augur is tradeable Reputation. The total amount of Reputation is a fixed quantity, determined upon the launch of Augur. Holding Reputation entitles its owner to report on the outcomes of events, after the events occur. Reputation tokens are similar in other respects to Bitcoins: they are divisible to eight decimal places, they are accounted for by summing over unspent transaction outputs, and they can be sent	[00:07]
asciilifeform	between users.'	[00:07]
asciilifeform	^ lol!	[00:07]
asciilifeform	srsly ?	[00:07]
thestringpuller	danielpbarron is in party. regenerate 5 hp per turn. :D	[00:07]
thestringpuller	caise ypi	[00:07]
thestringpuller	cause you're a crypto priest*	[00:07]
danielpbarron	decentralized bitbet like counterparty is decentralized mpex; just replaces the infrastructure (with something worse)	[00:08]
asciilifeform	i'm not averse to seeing actual solutions to 'decentralized xxxxx,' but they inevitably fall short re: 'democracy-proofing'	[00:09]
asciilifeform	who wants democracy pus in his meal ?	[00:09]
thestringpuller	!s democracy-proofing	[00:09]
assbot	0 results for 'democracy-proofing' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=democracy-proofing	[00:09]
thestringpuller	care to elaborate sir asciilifeform ?	[00:09]
thestringpuller	or is it Dr. asciilifeform	[00:10]
asciilifeform	aka sybil, dos, etc. attacks	[00:10]
asciilifeform	!s sybil	[00:10]
assbot	34 results for 'sybil' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=sybil	[00:10]
asciilifeform	there we go.	[00:10]
thestringpuller	how does that prevent democracy? (a sybil attack)?	[00:10]
asciilifeform	the basic idea is that meat puppets are not in any fundamental way different from other types of puppet.	[00:10]
asciilifeform	and must be dealt with through same mechanisms.	[00:10]
asciilifeform	the 'tradeable reputation' thing sounds disastrous.	[00:11]
asciilifeform	perhaps i'm just thick.	[00:11]
thestringpuller	ah. i understand your viewpoint tho.	[00:11]
thestringpuller	it all depends on volume of puppet imo.	[00:12]
thestringpuller	or maybe everyone is a puppet of some sort. that's a little beyond me tho	[00:12]
asciilifeform	in point of fact, even our system of reputation (wot) is theoretically 'tradeable', in that somebody could - in principle - sell his privkey to satan	[00:12]
danielpbarron	of course it's disastrous; it's like giving the -otc folk power based on their total rating score (which they build up through trivial deals)	[00:13]
asciilifeform	but baking tradeability in as a matter of course - is another thing	[00:13]
asciilifeform	lunacy, imho	[00:13]
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thestringpuller	isn't this classic dilemma of selling soul for some benefit/value	[00:13]
thestringpuller	you only have one to trade.	[00:13]
asciilifeform	which they build up through trivial deals << aha. this is actually an age-old plague on 'ebay' and the like.	[00:13]
thestringpuller	tis also irreverisble in nature.	[00:13]
asciilifeform	sc4mz0r cultivates rating with 100,000 'a+++++ gr34t d34lz'	[00:14]
asciilifeform	of fivebux each	[00:14]
asciilifeform	then proceeds to sell, e.g., nonexisting cars.	[00:14]
danielpbarron	the joke in otc is "Smooth TM"	[00:14]
thestringpuller	this is how athero was able to launch ziggap	[00:14]
thestringpuller	he sold shares in non existant broker bitcoin selling thing compan	[00:15]
thestringpuller	y	[00:15]
thestringpuller	;;gettrust aethero	[00:15]
gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user thestringpuller to user aethero: Level 1: -1, Level 2: 0 via 3 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=thestringpuller&dest=aethero \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=aethero \| Rated since: Wed May 2 19:24:52 2012	[00:15]
danielpbarron	what with all the hard fork drama, i'd say anything that can be kept centralized should probably remain centralized	[00:16]
thestringpuller	danielpbarron: i think the hardfork drama is fundamentally seeing split, or cold war in bitcoin	[00:16]
thestringpuller	east vs. west.	[00:16]
thestringpuller	capitalist vs. socialist	[00:16]
thestringpuller	etc.	[00:16]
asciilifeform	i have said before that an official usg altcoin is inevitable.	[00:17]
asciilifeform	gavincoin's probably it.	[00:17]
thestringpuller	yet we'll still pay taxes in bezzles?	[00:17]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: gavincoin is not made to replace usd, but to bleed bitcoin	[00:17]
thestringpuller	ofc, but USG coin that is used to also do what? annoy us out of our money like some comcast nonsenese?	[00:18]
asciilifeform	you will have to ask the fellow who thought it up	[00:18]
asciilifeform	once he sits down on mircea_popescu's stake.	[00:18]
asciilifeform	perhaps he'll do a q&a	[00:18]
danielpbarron	"I am slowely being impaled on a sharped stake. Ask me anything."	[00:19]
asciilifeform	!b 5	[00:19]
assbot	Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0VE53AD.txt )	[00:19]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: I do not see how anyone will contribute to usgavincoin when Buterin's waterfall explodes right after inception.	[00:20]
thestringpuller	Spend X money to build hoover dam and it explodes less than a year while runnign?	[00:21]
asciilifeform	seems clear that they'll pour the water on the other side.	[00:21]
asciilifeform	not on their own. (of the fork)	[00:21]
thestringpuller	But isn't this like someone trying to power a water wheel by simply running up stream with buckets of water they collect downstream?	[00:22]
asciilifeform	collected.	[00:22]
asciilifeform	or rather, robbed.	[00:22]
danielpbarron	there are plenty of people who are so focused on "mass adoption" as a priority that they will compromise any and all aspects of bitcoin to further that goal; what would get more mass adoption than endorsement from USG?	[00:22]
thestringpuller	It's still non-trivial effort tho, to run long term	[00:22]
thestringpuller	and wasteful. like fast explosion vs slow ember	[00:22]
thestringpuller	at least in my mind	[00:22]
asciilifeform	i'm not seeing any serious evidence of 'long-term' thinking on usg's part.	[00:23]
thestringpuller	i can only imagine poor peon running up stream trying to keep water wheel moving	[00:23]
asciilifeform	i can easily picture an 'atomic war' where every btc which usg has at some point begged, borrowed, stole, or can prevail upon a vassal to give up control of - will be placed on market in a 'last hurrah'	[00:24]
thestringpuller	danielpbarron: re: mass adoption << I always felt people wanted mass adoption so price raises.	[00:24]
thestringpuller	Which is perverted thinking at best.	[00:25]
thestringpuller	starving marvin in kenya buys a bitcoin with his 50000 kenyan shillings he saved up over the course of 5 years...	[00:25]
danielpbarron	i don't think they are so rational; i suspect it has more to do with "going viral" like a clever youtube video, and having been in on it before it was trendy	[00:26]
danielpbarron	although 2014 might have put an end to that	[00:27]
thestringpuller	i never understood when going viral became the equivalent of becoming valuable...	[00:29]
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asciilifeform	from the standpoint of vermin - yes, valuable	[00:29]
asciilifeform	all vermin envy the virus.	[00:30]
thestringpuller	black plague for all?	[00:30]
thestringpuller	but in all srsns, i thought the "popularity contest" died out by the end of high school	[00:30]
thestringpuller	now it seems the popularity contest is "the thing"	[00:30]
thestringpuller	22:13 <+asciilifeform> i have said before that an official usg altcoin is	[00:32]
thestringpuller	^- my bad. copy paste is bad with this one	[00:32]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: (and that there is another one, where it wasn't. but i think we did this one before) << like 5 or 7 times.	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron: such a thing is not possible; there needs to be an arbiter to decide if a bet has resolved yes or no << easier to "invent" stuff than understand stuff. just like it's easier to write new code than understand coding.	[00:44]
mircea_popescu	"whenever misreporting an event is worth more to your stake than it costs to buy back the lost reputation, you misreport the event. decentralized selective scamming ftw!"	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	"others will not readily understand how our implementation of 3 card monte is an implementation of 3 card monte, giving us an exploitable knowledge asymmetry - which makes this exactly an altcoin, which is why it's sensible to pretend we're like bitcoin"	[00:47]
mircea_popescu	etc	[00:47]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller: this is how athero was able to launch ziggap << not a very good example. he had amassed trust over time, and likely at a higher cost than what he made out of it. the controlling factor there was "insane guy stopped taking his pills one day."	[00:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6100 @ 0.00041938 = 2.5582 BTC [-]	[00:49]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: i couldn't find good example on top of head. but was jist of it received?	[00:50]
mircea_popescu	sure	[00:50]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: gavincoin's probably it. << no. in typical fashion they're trying to play it "anonymously". ie, not official.	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	it really gets them the worst of both worlds, but hey, it's what committees get. no actual men there to take charge.	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron: there are plenty of people who are so focused on "mass adoption" as a priority that they will compromise any and all aspects of bitcoin to further that goal; what would get more mass adoption than endorsement from USG? << it could become a new brand of tide.	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	"bitcoin is now a detergent. finally a commodity !!!"	[00:52]
asciilifeform	they're trying to play it "anonymously". ie, not official << with pretense every bit as thin as with 'tor'.	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	hence worst of both worlds.	[00:55]
xiando	I would prefer if they don't endorse that or anything and leave it alone.	[01:02]
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mircea_popescu	nothing gets left alone.	[01:03]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47850 @ 0.00041938 = 20.0673 BTC [-]	[01:07]
xiando	I know, but I don't have to like it. :)	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	:p	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	hence the "leave britny alone" meme.	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc	[01:10]
assbot	LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1C9dpcq )	[01:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58803 @ 0.00042896 = 25.2241 BTC [+] {2}	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	so there's a small statue in buenos aires with a san martin quote i absolutely love.	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	"De lo que mis granaderos son capaces, solo lo sé yo. Quien los iguale habrá. Quien los exceda - no."	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	"what my grenadiers are capable of, only I know. their equals might be found. their superiors - no."	[01:24]
mircea_popescu	http://www.accessatlanta.com/news/entertainment/celebrity-news/extreme-makeover-home-in-atlanta-in-foreclosure/nQx5J/ << who here lived in atlanta ? is this clinton-era-esque lulz legit ?	[01:33]
assbot	'Extreme Makeover' home in Atlanta in foreclosure	[01:33]
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mircea_popescu	!up metsuno	[01:35]
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mircea_popescu	ahh assbot, so nice to be back.	[01:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26924 @ 0.00045486 = 12.2467 BTC [+] {2}	[01:41]
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mircea_popescu	:)	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	anyone wanna do a 30 bux cc payment for me ?	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron ?	[01:43]
danielpbarron	cc not paypal?	[01:43]
danielpbarron	ya i guess	[01:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45650 @ 0.00046921 = 21.4194 BTC [+] {3}	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	hory shit i had to pay half a tent of a bitcent in tx fees. HODL EVERYTHANG!!! MUST INCREASE BLOXSIZE PLOX!	[01:55]
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mircea_popescu	!up decimation	[02:00]
-assbot-	You voiced decimation for 30 minutes.	[02:00]
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mircea_popescu	!up dub	[02:01]
-assbot-	You voiced dub for 30 minutes.	[02:01]
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decimation	I find the 'go' rant amusing. Would asciilifeform similarly object to python? I believe it can run on mips	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	you hate go too ?	[02:01]
decimation	I wouldn't call it 'hate' as much as 'utterly uninterested'	[02:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00044949 = 10.3832 BTC [-]	[02:03]
decimation	I just can't imagine a future in which I will need to learn 'go' for work or pleasure	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	kinda my position too	[02:03]
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decimation	is this the paper in question? cryptome.org/2013/09/klepto-crypto.pdf	[02:11]
decimation	ah I see that link only has a few pages of the book	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	"Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts" anyone here actually played planescape : torment ?	[02:19]
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mircea_popescu	!up NomosOne	[02:25]
-assbot-	You voiced NomosOne for 30 minutes.	[02:25]
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decimation	apparently usg has decided to greatly limit (not completely stop) civil forfeiture at the federal level	[02:28]
decimation	outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy'	[02:29]
mircea_popescu	no ?!	[02:29]
decimation	http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/holder-ends-seized-asset-sharing-process-that-split-billions-with-local-state-police/2015/01/16/0e7ca058-99d4-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html	[02:29]
assbot	Holder limits seized-asset sharing process that split billions with local, state police - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynDEMM )	[02:29]
mircea_popescu	seems more like a landgrab than anything ?	[02:29]
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decimation	how so?	[02:29]
decimation	well, it certainly curtails one form of civil forfeiture at the federal level, leaving a vacuum that can be filled at the state level, if the states so desire	[02:30]
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mircea_popescu	ah you're right. originally i read it as "we'll just keep more of it".	[02:33]
mircea_popescu	btw decimation assbot now allows wotization, pm it !up	[02:33]
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asciilifeform	the 'vacuum' will be filled by theft and robbery from the same place as before.	[02:35]
asciilifeform	because how else.	[02:35]
mircea_popescu	in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/e9757a9deb4f50a25d868f26f4c3ab1d/tumblr_mvec3nySMa1s6dk4zo1_500.jpg was a great car.	[02:35]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ynEw3W )	[02:35]
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ben_vulpes	did i crash assbot?	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	dun think so	[02:41]
ben_vulpes	nope. perhaps the otp machine?	[02:41]
ben_vulpes	what are the semantics for working with asswot?	[02:42]
asciilifeform	http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/14/this-powerful-reddit-thread-reveals-how-the-poor-get-by-in-america << we've arrived at the end of the line. u.s. newspapers print articles concerning reddit threads.	[02:43]
assbot	This powerful Reddit thread reveals how the poor get by in America - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynFBc4 )	[02:43]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell manamex you're joining channels and then applying your cloak. FYI.	[02:43]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[02:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00047268 = 9.2645 BTC [-]	[02:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47100 @ 0.00047621 = 22.4295 BTC [+] {2}	[02:46]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes like in chan ? pm it !up it responds with otp, pm it !v otp	[02:47]
kakobrekla	!rate ben_vulpes test	[02:48]
assbot	Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.	[02:48]
kakobrekla	!rate ben_vulpes 1 test	[02:48]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/7e95d1cb8e7c1075	[02:48]
kakobrekla	what do you mean it doesnt work ben_vulpes ?	[02:48]
ben_vulpes	that link refuses to resolve for me	[02:48]
mircea_popescu	yeah, scam error report.	[02:48]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71107 @ 0.00047967 = 34.1079 BTC [+] {3}	[02:49]
kakobrekla	;;isup http://w.b-a.link/otp/5d95a96032e89e9e	[02:50]
gribble	http://w.b-a.link/otp/5d95a96032e89e9e is up	[02:50]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ynGCB0 )	[02:50]
ben_vulpes	https://www.refheap.com/96220	[02:52]
assbot	anonymous's paste: 96220 ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynGPEa )	[02:52]
mircea_popescu	PING 185.34.216.71 (185.34.216.71) 56(84) bytes of data.	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	64 bytes from 185.34.216.71: icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=252 ms	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	64 bytes from 185.34.216.71: icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=248 ms	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	l'etrange.	[02:53]
kakobrekla	yes my shit banned your shit.	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	ban shee!	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	mk	[02:54]
ben_vulpes	lmk if that changes, yeah?	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform washington post = newspaper in the sense projects = neighbourhoods.	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	the hoods part, okay.	[02:58]
asciilifeform	then what newspaper remains in usa ?	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	hum.	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	i guess kinda blighted.	[02:59]
asciilifeform	wash. post is 'the other' nyt.	[02:59]
ben_vulpes	"newspaper" in the trad'l sense of "town rag" still exists in various municipalities. "grey lady", not so much.	[02:59]
mircea_popescu	more like the other Forward.	[02:59]
asciilifeform	these two fishwraps are almost always sold in bins together.	[02:59]
kakobrekla	try now ben_vulpes	[02:59]
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ben_vulpes	ty kakobrekla	[02:59]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu may be thinking of 'washington times	[03:00]
asciilifeform	'	[03:00]
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mircea_popescu	i never heard of that one.	[03:00]
ben_vulpes	!rate kakobrekla 3 wot steward	[03:00]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/190b6cfc995f06a2	[03:00]
asciilifeform	at any rate, the article is intensely lulzy	[03:01]
ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.3:71dbfce4f8bb960b54b95894d306db892a6f30da3fc5776c31b3ef6f2f45b0c4	[03:01]
assbot	Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 3 with note: wot steward	[03:01]
kakobrekla	works, cool	[03:01]
ben_vulpes	neat	[03:01]
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decimation	alright works	[03:02]
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kakobrekla	yeah im surprised myself	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/wikipedia-kills-page-linking-obama-slogan-to-socialist-movement/ < < lawl.	[03:03]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynInhH )	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	apparently wikipedia deleted a page discussing the "forward" as a generic name for socialist publications after someone mocked obama for it.	[03:03]
decimation	asciilifeform: lol so apparently reddit is where bums hang out?	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	been saying that for a while!11	[03:04]
decimation	the other amusing point that the article fails to bring up: if the 'poor' must pay to live in a dense shitty city, why not move to the country?	[03:05]
asciilifeform	decimation: presumably, moving costs something	[03:05]
mircea_popescu	the poor flock to the city since the times of rabelais for the same reason : you can eat without working there.	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	not so in the country	[03:06]
decimation	if living off gov't checks anyway, wouldn't a trailer park somewhere stretch the bezzlars?	[03:06]
asciilifeform	decimation: another interesting fact re: usa is that rental properties are scarce to nonexistent when you walk out of the high-density areas	[03:06]
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decimation	yeah that's probably true in most areas, except for the20year's huts in ohio	[03:06]
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mircea_popescu	hmm, no testament in english ?	[03:08]
decimation	but the basic bitch here reminds me of something like 'heavier things are heavier'	[03:08]
decimation	of course someone with a spare $bil to invest in a sony movie (for example) will make $0.5 bil profit	[03:08]
asciilifeform	testament ?	[03:08]
decimation	having fifty bux means your investment options are limited to your own stomach	[03:09]
asciilifeform	5k - also stomach	[03:09]
asciilifeform	and arguably likewise 50k.	[03:09]
decimation	yeah pretty much	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	you know you can buy stocks online these days on about 1k i think ?	[03:10]
asciilifeform	lol stocks	[03:10]
decimation	what are you gonna do? buy shares of wal-mart and hope they go up 100x?	[03:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31129 @ 0.00047521 = 14.7928 BTC [-]	[03:10]
asciilifeform	the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform testament ? << http://damienbe.chez.com/testamen.htm	[03:10]
ben_vulpes	i'll settle for 8%/year	[03:10]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ynJtK5 )	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	decimation why 100x ? you proposed a 1bn - >1.5 bn deal.	[03:11]
asciilifeform	aha -that- testament	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform students (aka bums) in paris. right ?	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	why paris ?	[03:11]
decimation	even in that case, it's gonna take awhile before walmart stock goes from $1k to 1.5k	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	En l'an de mon trentiesme age, que toutes mes hontes j'euz beues, ne du tout fol, ne du tout saige non obstant maintes peines eues, lesquelles j'ay toutes receues soubz la main Thibault d'Aucigny ...	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	S'esvesque il est, signant les rues, qu'il soit le mien je le regny.	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	decimation films are some of the most risky investments out there you know.	[03:12]
decimation	yeah I'm using it as a somewhat poor example. my main point is that having $x mil to 'invest' allows one to bend over and pick up stuff that bums have no access to	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	i dispute this theory.	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	there is no significant advantage to size, and a serious problem to it.	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	buffett oft dwells on the matter : it's easy for krill to find a good meal, on account of being small. not so easy for whale.	[03:13]
asciilifeform	villon << http://flibusta.net/b/374344/download	[03:14]
asciilifeform	^ ru translation	[03:14]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ynJTjT )	[03:14]
decimation	I suppose the principle at work here is that once one has $x, one finds no portion of x to be 'spare'	[03:14]
mircea_popescu	there's a decent english one by de verre	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	not sure if on the nets or not	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	decimation in any case spare works better at smaller size.	[03:15]
asciilifeform	rhyming translation ?	[03:15]
asciilifeform	(the linked one is also beautifully illustrated, as it happens)	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	essentially the principle being that you may find excellent "best actresses/cocksuckers", but not really "2nd best actresses/cocksuckers" in proportion.	[03:15]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[03:17]
mircea_popescu	the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade << iirc it's about a dime/a quarter per lot, which lot is usually 1k shares, which can easily be 100k usd.	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	yes, much more than say the specialst pays (specialist doesn't pay). this is inconsequential.	[03:18]
ben_vulpes	https://www.robinhood.com/ << if you want to be front-run	[03:18]
assbot	Robinhood - Zero-Commission Stock Brokerage ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynKv8W )	[03:18]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the street where i live, just a year or so ago, was covered in ads '$7 / trade111!'	[03:18]
decimation	well, it would be a big deal if you day trade all day	[03:18]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: but i'm willing to believe that there are newer, more appealing chumpatrons	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	decimation a horrible deal. imagine all the noise you'd be pouring into the market.	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there are at least a dozen honest online brokerages.	[03:19]
asciilifeform	and they all front-run.	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	to those, no doubt five million internet scams.	[03:19]
mircea_popescu	retail is SUPPOSED to be front run for crying out loud.	[03:19]
decimation	asciilifeform: sure, but you are generally talking about pennies per share	[03:19]
asciilifeform	at any rate, why would someone with no informational-asymmetric advantage want to buy stocks ?	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	to invest.	[03:20]
decimation	because that's where the trade bots put their earnings	[03:20]
mircea_popescu	to acquire a portion of the productively outlayed capital i nthe country.	[03:20]
ben_vulpes	[] outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy' << just look for the "apparent pedophilia rate" as evidenced by "he had kiddie pr0nz" to go up.	[03:20]
asciilifeform	^	[03:20]
decimation	yeah that will be interesting	[03:21]
decimation	suddenly everyone will be serious drug runner/terrorist/pedo	[03:21]
asciilifeform	or a sudden plague of 'illegal gun'	[03:21]
asciilifeform	(another exception in the new law)	[03:21]
ben_vulpes	everyone's trivially framed.	[03:21]
mircea_popescu	i read it thatthey may only confiscate the guns	[03:21]
mircea_popescu	but not the cars/cash.	[03:21]
decimation	in some states (illinois) you must register all your guns with the state	[03:24]
ben_vulpes	https://vine.co/v/OZOnMZ2xpZZ << stability manifolds	[03:26]
assbot	Watch Reid Wiseman's Vine "Even a 50kg mass does the same flipping maneuver. “Wild” to me! #science #SpaceVine" ... ( http://bit.ly/1Civp1R )	[03:26]
decimation	amusing poettering interview http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/	[03:28]
assbot	Interview: Lennart Poettering \| Linux Voice ... ( http://bit.ly/1CivD9e )	[03:28]
decimation	it's pretty obvious that the guy is a control freak who gets off on forcing his way	[03:29]
decimation	"So we started writing Systemd, and Red Hat didn’t like it at all. Red Hat management said: no, we’re going for Upstart, don’t work on that. So I said, OK, I’ll work on it in my free time. Eventually Red Hat realised that the problems we solved with Systemd were relevant, and were problems that needed to be solved, and that you couldn’t ignore them."	[03:30]
*	badon has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[03:30]
undata	decimation: I wasn't aware of that particular detail	[03:31]
undata	tragic; upstart is a much simpler alternative	[03:31]
decimation	"So anyway, long story short, we came to the conclusion that Upstart is conceptually wrong, and it moved at glacial speeds. It also had the problem that Canonical tried very hard to stay in control of it. They made sure, with copyright assignment, that they made it really hard to contribute, but that’s what Linux actually lives off. You get these drive-by patches, as I would call them, where people see that something is broken, or	[03:32]
decimation	something could be improved. They do a Git checkout, do one change, send you it and forget about it."	[03:32]
decimation	he tries to make a halfass technical argument against Upstart, and then whines that it's hard to make commits	[03:32]
decimation	later on he describes people who like systemd as "progressive" and those who reject it as 'conservative'	[03:34]
undata	well that lays bare the abstractions rolling around in that gourd, doesn't it	[03:34]
*	AndrewJackson has quit ()	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	"Few pieces of software in history have been so fiercely debated as Systemd. "	[03:59]
mircea_popescu	really ? because why, because the author is 5 yo ?	[03:59]
mircea_popescu	how about you know, emacs wars ?	[03:59]
asciilifeform	'In April was the jackal born, In June the rain-fed rivers swelled: 'Never in all my life,' said he, 'Have I so great a flood beheld.'' (orwell)	[04:01]
mircea_popescu	". It’s growing all the time and now handles logging, device hotplugging events, networking, scheduled actions (like Cron) and much more. Almost every major Linux distribution has adopted Systemd, but there are still some unhappy campers out there,"	[04:01]
mircea_popescu	uhm. happy campers = the entire foss community ?	[04:01]
mircea_popescu	the lulz is so thick, considering the playbook is identically replayed with the gavincoin	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	course, the prospect is a lot grim-er for linux, but hey.	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	"in the most superficial level, some used -h for help, and others ––help. It’s not uniform." << i can't name a tool that doesn't actually honor both.	[04:03]
mircea_popescu	but a fuckwit 20something discussing how "people have not played with unix at all" is, indeed, amusing.	[04:03]
mircea_popescu	"LV: And you never see them again!	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	LP: Yeah, and this is great – these are the people you want to have, because the vast majority of patches are actually of that kind. "	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	"because they have no political power - and that's what you want, a lot of lemmings"	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	anyway, im not reding this idiocy.	[04:04]
asciilifeform	i read it. it was a total snore.	[04:05]
mircea_popescu	anyway. there's nothing wrong with the people who didn't belong in foss in the first place finding their own way out, just like there's nothing wrong with the people who have no business in bitcoin finding their own way out.	[04:06]
mircea_popescu	kinda why "adoption" is meaningless. i don't care for anyone to "adopt" anything i do. i might care if they change to fit to it. but otherwise, good fucking luck, there's no value in having a bunch of pacific islanders speak english as if it were the retarded language they spoke before.	[04:06]
mircea_popescu	let them stick to what they know and be happy.	[04:07]
mircea_popescu	giving inept infantrymen good horses doesn't create an elite cavalry regiment, it just creates a lot of injured horses. giving stupid people smart things doesn't make them smart. it'll just make a lot of broken smart things.	[04:08]
asciilifeform	!b 4	[04:08]
assbot	Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0WFB7MQ.txt )	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	both are a horrible waste of beasts.	[04:08]
decimation	;;ud pidgin	[04:09]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pidgin \| the slang spoken by the locals in hawaii. people there do not speak hawaiian, they speak pidgin. to all my mainlander "friends": stop asking me fuckin stupid ...	[04:09]
mircea_popescu	in any case, the entire lennart gambit is that "actually smart people won't be able to find each other in our sea of lemmings"	[04:10]
mircea_popescu	kinda why stuff like the wot-foss i was discussing and even gossipd are so important	[04:10]
decimation	well, apparently he confirmed that redhat was itself a ship of lemmings, looking for a lemming-king, and lennart was their man	[04:11]
mircea_popescu	but also why a certain attitude to ineptitude, from the "affirmative action", "wopmen in tech" "don't say nigger" all the way to stupidities like the equalitarism in freenode's policies is so very important. and why linus' "fuck you" is such a major thing.	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	it's not gratuitous, all this. it provides a very valuable signal, both to the inferior and to the superior.	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	every time you see someone being stupid, piss on his face. this is important for them, and it's important for me.	[04:12]
mircea_popescu	tolerance is not the answer to any question worth asking, and it does not serve any purpose other than the general drowning in shit. which is not a desirable outcome in any case.	[04:13]
mircea_popescu	better off if half the "community" gets upset and moves on to collecting bugs or digging trenches or whatever, than if programming becomes a sort of passtime for trench diggers and worm afficionados.	[04:14]
mircea_popescu	/endrant	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	actually no, let's also add an illustration. http://38.media.tumblr.com/055cd45805272e544f0e27e390f1ee7b/tumblr_muf8b3qyLb1sa3bwyo1_r1_500.gif	[04:16]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1y88BCM )	[04:16]
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mircea_popescu	in other news, http://www.dcnews.ro/apreciere-franc-elve-ian-razboi-ana-birchall-andreea-paul_464977.html << the swiss franc situation is a disaster for 100s of k's of idiot romanians who refinanced their home mortgages in swiss francs to try and capture a half of a percent less interest.	[04:33]
assbot	APRECIERE FRANC ELVEȚIAN: Război cu stenograme Ana Birchall - Andreea Paul \| DC News \| De ce se intampla ... ( http://bit.ly/1IT3Xu0 )	[04:33]
mircea_popescu	that just turned into 20-30% more principal.	[04:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00047521 = 7.9598 BTC [-]	[04:41]
ben_vulpes	ouch.	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	populists in parliament having a field day over it.	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	arrears set to go up from 15% to 25%ish	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	(romania, unlike the us, actually keeps track of unserviced retail debentures)	[04:45]
mircea_popescu	anyway, thassall for me. have fun b-a!	[04:48]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[13:04]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[13:04]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[13:04]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[13:04]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[13:05]
mircea_popescu	good morning asseteers!	[13:05]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48550 @ 0.00049745 = 24.1512 BTC [+] {2}	[13:05]
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davout	guten tag	[13:12]
davout	so, re yesterday's convo about go and c it occurs to me that b-a will eventually have to have a reviewed & signed code repo	[13:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14293 @ 0.00048366 = 6.913 BTC [-] {2}	[13:14]
mircea_popescu	this occurs to you through having read the logs re the new github model / how the bitcoin foundation works or independently ?	[13:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22019 @ 0.00047979 = 10.5645 BTC [-] {2}	[13:15]
davout	well, you can't really build a good house without good bricks	[13:16]
mircea_popescu	right.	[13:16]
mircea_popescu	read the log thread in question tho, it's instructive. about how the point is to have code signed for having been read.	[13:16]
davout	you don't refer to yesterday's convo do you?	[13:17]
davout	!s signed code	[13:17]
assbot	24 results for 'signed code' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=signed+code	[13:17]
davout	meant yesterday's log as it seems it has come up quite a few times already :D	[13:18]
mircea_popescu	no.	[13:18]
mircea_popescu	this was a few weeks prior to the foundation's birth.	[13:19]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-09-2014#824250	[13:19]
assbot	Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.	[13:19]
davout	ty	[13:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25821 @ 0.00047875 = 12.3618 BTC [-]	[13:20]
davout	it appears that if we want to make a proper apple pie from scratch we'll have to invent the universe first	[13:23]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 20000 @ 0.00005363 = 1.0726 BTC [+] {12}	[13:24]
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mircea_popescu	which is finbe	[13:25]
mircea_popescu	the current universe sucks anyway.	[13:25]
davout	it is fine indeed	[13:25]
*	assbot gives voice to PeterL	[13:26]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-01-2015#979896 < http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/last	[13:26]
assbot	Logged on 17-01-2015 01:06:05; PeterL: having the same for voice would make it so our scripts from gribble would be easily convirtable	[13:26]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1IUaynW )	[13:26]
davout	i have nfi what kind of workload it would represent to make some linux fork that's entirely reviewed, assume it'd be pretty massive	[13:26]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla : can assbot match 32 char strings as keyids instead of names ?	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	so stuff like !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 is not registered in WoT.	[13:27]
PeterL	new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	works so it simplifies deedbot design a lot ?	[13:27]
mircea_popescu	davout depends how much crap you're wiling to hoist overboard.	[13:27]
kakobrekla	how does it simplify ?	[13:27]
davout	yup	[13:28]
mircea_popescu	the workload pain will probably be far exceeded by the cries of horror of the large hordes of nobodies that can no longer "innovate", in the sense their gunk is no longer included in repos	[13:28]
PeterL	kakobrekla: are you pointing out my horrible spelling? :)	[13:28]
kakobrekla	new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp < yes, no session, recall?	[13:28]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla 2.1. Bot extracts the signature keyid through a process homologuous to gpg -v -v	[13:28]
mircea_popescu	2.2. Bot makes a request to assbot via pm, of the format ;;gpg info --key	[13:28]
kakobrekla	PeterL you are missing the link ?	[13:28]
mircea_popescu	that way, it wouldn't have to do two steps, just directly gettrust to a keyid.	[13:28]
PeterL	well, for gribble I have script that runs curl and gpg and pastes the result	[13:28]
kakobrekla	again : http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/last	[13:28]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KSh16y )	[13:28]
PeterL	for assbot, now I have to use the mouse to highlight the new link, and type the commands	[13:29]
mircea_popescu	PeterL process http://w.b-a.link/otps/PeterL/last	[13:29]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KSh6ak )	[13:29]
PeterL	aha, now I see it	[13:29]
mircea_popescu	he put that in thar jus fer you :D	[13:29]
PeterL	that's cool, thanks	[13:29]
PeterL	too early, can't read yet	[13:30]
mircea_popescu	how does it simplify ? << dja see what i mean ?	[13:30]
kakobrekla	;;later tell ben_vulpes as requested, json; http://w.b-a.link/user/ben_vulpes/json and http://w.b-a.link/trust/ben_vulpes/kakobrekla/json	[13:30]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[13:30]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KShe9Y )	[13:30]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KShgie )	[13:30]
kakobrekla	for which command ?	[13:31]
kakobrekla	i dont have gpg info command	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	i want !gettrust to match any 32 char string as a key rather than a name	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	so that !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 responds with "trust from mircea_popescu to mircea_popescu : so an so"	[13:31]
kakobrekla	yeah	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	that way two steps become one step and that's that.	[13:32]
kakobrekla	ill do it for gettrust but not others	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	all that's needed yes ty.	[13:32]
kakobrekla	k	[13:32]
PeterL	!rate kakobrekla 3 Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff	[13:32]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6a9d8d2d055d69cf	[13:32]
PeterL	!v assbot:PeterL.rate.kakobrekla.3:ad06b594522d33faffcdf84b870db76a3fbd1fcda55e860ddec83a58b3864168	[13:32]
assbot	Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 3 with note: Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff	[13:32]
kakobrekla	amazing	[13:33]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[13:33]
PeterL	is scoopbot still running? -hi	[13:33]
scoopbot	Hello PeterL!	[13:33]
PeterL	oh, good	[13:33]
mircea_popescu	are you a slut scoopbot ? -slut	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	a well, so much for ai.	[13:34]
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davout	http://i.imgur.com/00C6KHP.jpg	[13:45]
decimation	apparently obama also made remarks on backdoor encryption http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/01/president-obama-comments-on-back-doors-in-encryption/	[13:45]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KSiqKs )	[13:45]
assbot	Lawfare › President Obama Comments on Back-doors in Encryption ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSisSw )	[13:45]
decimation	or to be more precise, he failed to make remarks when asked the question	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	ow shit i forgot the porny link.	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	http://41.media.tumblr.com/41d822d78facf0f09366bc77bda03093/tumblr_mpfi5pcu321rdn1byo1_500.jpg	[13:46]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KSiry4 )	[13:46]
decimation	other than vague "we work with companies who also have families", which is exactly the same argument one gets from the local mobster I presume	[13:46]
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mircea_popescu	o hai chetty	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	decimation have you seen the "toasting the queen" thing ?	[13:47]
kakobrekla	mircea_popescu perhaps is even easier if i just allow for w.b-a.link/trust/key1/key2/json ?	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	that poor guy, he looks like a neurotic setter.	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla sure!	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	what's assbot key again ?	[13:47]
decimation	eh? I don't think so	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	decimation he goes to toast the queen. the athem's going on so queen ignores him.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	lotta hay made out of how "the queen snubbed obama'. but the guy's just not very aware. which looked to me like a very very tired man that's being constantly pestered with advice and requirements by about 9 spinster women.	[13:49]
kakobrekla	assbot is 7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	aka, the typical american child of 2010.	[13:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60869 @ 0.00048599 = 29.5817 BTC [+] {4}	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla works for me, editing this spec.	[13:49]
decimation	yeah, actually from his rambling answer in the linked youtube (starting 45:30), there's very little evidence obama is even aware about the 'backdoor encryption' issue at all	[13:50]
mircea_popescu	honestly, i don't see it's a president's job, that.	[13:51]
mircea_popescu	and it's not how you ask the president that question, either.	[13:51]
decimation	well, certainly it ought to be something he answers in writing, in detail	[13:51]
decimation	the trouble is there's no method to compel an answer	[13:51]
mircea_popescu	this is roughly the equivalent of a company with 10k cab fleet having famously a weak alternator, and some reporter asking the CEO "what about the spinny trick ?"	[13:51]
*	bitstein (~bitstein@unaffiliated/bitstein) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:52]
mircea_popescu	that's not what you say. you say, "as you may be aware, because this so and so weakness in this part of the engine that does that and this, some drivers are so and so.". guy needs an intro.	[13:52]
mircea_popescu	no, there shouldn't be a way to compel an answer. wtf ?!	[13:52]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets/	[13:53]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla can there be a /n after each otp before encryption pls.	[13:54]
*	yhwh__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	currently it bleeds into teh bash. dun wanna put an "echo "/n"" in there .	[13:54]
*	evian11_____ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[13:54]
decimation	well, there's an issue of policy here, which is "is a us person allowed to communicate in a manner outside the possibility of usg interception?"	[13:55]
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*	CryptoGoon has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	right. that should be the question. like that.	[13:56]
*	metsuno (4a81c53b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.129.197.59) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:56]
*	Panadol______ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[13:56]
*	bitspill has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[13:56]
decimation	because the implication of both cameron's and obama's answer is "no"	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	because that's why we go to school : so we can present our inquiries in such a way that OTHER PEOPLE can fucking grok wtf we want to know	[13:56]
*	McNumpty has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)	[13:56]
decimation	and that appears to completely contradict constitutional and court precedent	[13:56]
decimation	'because terrorism'	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	decimation i bet you the guy does not even currently ~KNOW~ that that's what's being discussed.	[13:57]
decimation	cameron clearly does, but obama gave no evidence of it	[13:57]
mircea_popescu	because fucking aspie autistic idiot kids + total incompetent "women in journalism" ask dronign, meaningless questions	[13:57]
decimation	note that there are people who could ask such questions	[13:58]
PeterL	http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/15/womens-college-cancels-vagina-monologues	[13:58]
assbot	Women's College Cancels 'Vagina Monologues' Because It Excludes Women Without Vaginas - Hit & Run : Reason.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSjjTd )	[13:58]
decimation	but the press corps is carefully selected to exclude them	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	camweon's a total heel. i have nfi whatabout england produces such contemptible sacks of shit. i thought blair was an exception, but apparently he was just a harbringer.	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	decimation so noted. why don't they ?	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	PeterL obviously, the idiocy's own internal logic is its downfall. kinda the problem with all insanity.	[13:59]
decimation	because the civil service would exclude access to that journalist's organization	[13:59]
PeterL	right, lol	[13:59]
mircea_popescu	decimation i propose excluding that entire thing.	[14:00]
mircea_popescu	!up chetty	[14:00]
*	assbot gives voice to chetty	[14:00]
mircea_popescu	chetty try it in here so we see ?	[14:01]
chetty	!v assbot:chetty.up:ef543cc75b665e6c256ba24daf682446e46a10a97d497ef0f6258a61671a362	[14:01]
assbot	Invalid verfication string.	[14:01]
PeterL	somebody is trying to hack into chetty's account?	[14:01]
chetty	it doesnt like me	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	that string's too short.	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	missing 9 chars.	[14:02]
chetty	what my key has been hax	[14:02]
mircea_popescu	nah.	[14:02]
kakobrekla	hm	[14:03]
kakobrekla	try that in private ?	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	it's the missing /n at en of otp giving all sorts of people hell	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	because gotta recover the end of the key from their bash string	[14:03]
decimation	cameron said "as technology develops, as the world moves on, we should try to avoid safehavens that can otherwise be created for terrorists to talk to each other"	[14:03]
kakobrekla	otp !up should work only on private	[14:03]
kakobrekla	chan !up is for non otp use	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla im pretty sure i v'd here.	[14:03]
kakobrekla	!up Anduck	[14:04]
*	assbot gives voice to Anduck	[14:04]
kakobrekla	!down Anduck	[14:04]
*	assbot removes voice from Anduck	[14:04]
kakobrekla	!u	[14:04]
kakobrekla	!up	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	!v dude. !v.	[14:04]
assbot	Invalid verfication string.	[14:04]
kakobrekla	a yes, v you can you anywhere	[14:04]
decimation	perhaps that quote should be gossipd's motto	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	decimation could well be lol.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve << well, usg entities that deal in bitcoin do have such reprieve currently ?	[14:05]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55000 @ 0.00047492 = 26.1206 BTC [-] {2}	[14:05]
decimation	some elements of usg would claim otherwise	[14:05]
mircea_popescu	heck, the us scammer office (previously marshall's office) doesn't have to answer foia if it doesn't feel like it, and can even lie in public statements.	[14:06]
mircea_popescu	come to think about it, so can the da.	[14:06]
mircea_popescu	seems to me like pretty complete legal immunity.	[14:06]
decimation	in theory, usg has no legal immunity (from criminal courts), but in practice it clearly does	[14:06]
mircea_popescu	for as long as that lasts lol.	[14:07]
decimation	in civil court usg has explicit immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_United_States	[14:08]
assbot	Sovereign immunity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1wik1yA )	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	this is universal.	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	bitbet has it as well. so does every other country.	[14:08]
kakobrekla	mircea_popescu http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8	[14:09]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1wik9y5 )	[14:09]
mircea_popescu	sweet.	[14:09]
kakobrekla	actually http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8	[14:09]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1wikfpg )	[14:09]
kakobrekla	and http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8/json	[14:09]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1wikfFJ )	[14:09]
mircea_popescu	this doesn't look like it should be legal.,	[14:10]
mircea_popescu	it's too complicated.	[14:10]
kakobrekla	yeah ill prolly end up in jail	[14:10]
mircea_popescu	move to hungary. i hear they're going all fascist.	[14:11]
PeterL	there was talk earlier about newspapers. I find good local reporting at http://mlive.com and my sister-in-law writes for http://tooeleonline.com/	[14:11]
assbot	Michigan Local News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - MLive.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikq44 )	[14:11]
assbot	Tooele Transcript Bulletin – News in Tooele, Utah ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikqkq )	[14:11]
mircea_popescu	lol i read that as "toe online" was o.O	[14:11]
PeterL	lol	[14:12]
*	assbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[14:12]
PeterL	was originally tuellja (iirc), but the anglos mangled the spelling	[14:12]
*	assbot (~assbot@unaffiliated/kakobrekla/bot/assbot) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:12]
*	ChanServ gives voice to assbot	[14:13]
*	ChanServ gives channel operator status to assbot	[14:13]
kakobrekla	mircea_popescu check new line if fixed?	[14:13]
mircea_popescu	!rate kakobrekla 17 hurr	[14:13]
assbot	Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.	[14:13]
mircea_popescu	!rate kakobrekla 1.7 hurr	[14:13]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9f1f7a77bb5ab2a1	[14:13]
kakobrekla	lol.	[14:13]
mircea_popescu	lmao fractions rly ?	[14:13]
kakobrekla	try it	[14:13]
kakobrekla	see what happens	[14:13]
decimation	!rate decimation 0.1 marginal	[14:14]
assbot	You can not rate yourself.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	fixed tyvm	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.1.7:b40b7beddd0f6b2f45874cb24cdb3dcd9c051c5c9727a4b306b1f115729982a0	[14:14]
assbot	Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 5 to 1.7 with note: hurr	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	lmao wut	[14:14]
kakobrekla	lol!	[14:14]
kakobrekla	nfi	[14:14]
PeterL	!rate decimation 0.1 marginal	[14:14]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9d9547d664ea4ebf	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	this is not a bug.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	it's a future.	[14:14]
decimation	lol	[14:14]
decimation	me thinks there might be some bugs	[14:14]
PeterL	!v assbot:PeterL.rate.decimation.0.1:17d02404cae9e530dcd5e82a06dad23963c9560e9b0530d785bd01da78a11710	[14:15]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 0.1 for decimation with note: marginal	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	nah srsly. kakobrekla dun bother fixing	[14:15]
decimation	lol	[14:15]
PeterL	so, if somebody has < 1 L2 rating, they don't get voice? or it just has to be > 0?	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	> 0 i hope.	[14:15]
kakobrekla	!gettrust kakobrekla	[14:15]
assbot	Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user kakobrekla: ∞ \| http://w.b-a.link/user/kakobrekla	[14:15]
*	Xuthus (~X0FF@unaffiliated/xuthus) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:15]
kakobrekla	hmm	[14:16]
mircea_popescu	!gettrust kakobrekla	[14:16]
assbot	Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 54 via 32 connections. \| http://w.b-a.link/trust/mircea_popescu/kakobrekla \| http://w.b-a.link/user/kakobrekla	[14:16]
kakobrekla	i think it didnt work	[14:16]
mircea_popescu	o look it rounds ?	[14:16]
PeterL	!gettrust decimation	[14:16]
assbot	Trust relationship from user PeterL to user decimation: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. \| http://w.b-a.link/trust/PeterL/decimation \| http://w.b-a.link/user/decimation	[14:16]
PeterL	rounds down?	[14:16]
kakobrekla	no, it did not work, comment is unchanged	[14:17]
mircea_popescu	!rate kakobrekla 5 too much stuff to list. inquire within..	[14:17]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/721476ec38fdf8b8	[14:17]
PeterL	!rated decimation	[14:17]
assbot	You rated user decimation on 17-Jan-2015, with a rating of 0, and supplied these additional notes: marginal.	[14:17]
PeterL	see, rounded down	[14:17]
mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.5:4854d908f615d0a4735169e307d17352740d17b15f4608f0200d018f6683baad	[14:17]
assbot	Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 5 with note: too much stuff to list. inquire within..	[14:17]
mircea_popescu	baad eh ?	[14:17]
mircea_popescu	PeterL i guess 1.7 -> 2 0.1 -> 0	[14:17]
PeterL	so it lets you input a fraction, but converts to int?	[14:18]
kakobrekla	why are you asking me, do you think i know ?	[14:18]
*	kakobrekla goes to look the code	[14:19]
davout	b-a is so mean, kakobrekla makes something nice, everyone tries to break it	[14:19]
PeterL	you made it?	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	it was his twin brother.	[14:19]
PeterL	the more we disclose now leaves less suprises later	[14:19]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 144 @ 0.00734105 = 1.0571 BTC [-]	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	he's just jealous we care.	[14:20]
*	metsuno has quit (Quit: Page closed)	[14:22]
*	assbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[14:23]
*	assbot (~assbot@unaffiliated/kakobrekla/bot/assbot) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:23]
*	ChanServ gives voice to assbot	[14:23]
*	ChanServ gives channel operator status to assbot	[14:23]
kakobrekla	!rate assbot -1.1	[14:24]
assbot	Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	nonzero integer	[14:24]
kakobrekla	should say int but whatever.	[14:24]
kakobrekla	heh	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	yeah no big deal	[14:24]
PeterL	so no more decimals?	[14:24]
kakobrekla	NO	[14:24]
kakobrekla	NO DECIMALS FOR YOU	[14:24]
kakobrekla	COME BACK NEXT YEAR	[14:24]
*	PeterL hangs head in shame	[14:25]
fluffypony	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2sqh0a/decentralising_mining_making_p2pool_more/	[14:25]
assbot	Decentralising mining: Making P2Pool more lucrative by coinbaseless fees? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSl3Mn )	[14:25]
fluffypony	"The alert key will be raised by Gavin"	[14:25]
fluffypony	don't worry guize, Gavin will save err'one	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	lol	[14:26]
mircea_popescu	http://38.media.tumblr.com/c137c08dddcf441ea324c1f37c8c8246/tumblr_mnryfvVNSu1ssms30o1_500.gif << post gavin salvation.	[14:28]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KSliam )	[14:28]
*	assbot removes voice from chetty	[14:30]
PeterL	!up chetty	[14:31]
*	assbot gives voice to chetty	[14:31]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00069999 = 1.4 BTC [-]	[14:32]
*	Panadol______ (sid17764@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mmbajrrzcpvlhelw) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:35]
PeterL	!up Panadol______	[14:38]
*	assbot gives voice to Panadol______	[14:38]
PeterL	hi Panadol______ , what brings you here today?	[14:38]
*	PeterL has quit (Quit: PeterL)	[14:44]
*	mats (sid23029@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqhnuxpnnfvlqxpw) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:48]
*	bitspill (sid28048@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gdzmjipmxewrersw) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:51]
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*	assbot removes voice from chetty	[15:02]
*	assbot removes voice from Panadol______	[15:08]
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mircea_popescu	!up bitspill	[15:22]
-assbot-	You voiced bitspill for 30 minutes.	[15:22]
*	assbot gives voice to bitspill	[15:22]
mircea_popescu	!up McNumpty	[15:22]
-assbot-	You voiced McNumpty for 30 minutes.	[15:22]
*	assbot gives voice to McNumpty	[15:22]
mircea_popescu	!up mats	[15:22]
-assbot-	You voiced mats for 30 minutes.	[15:22]
*	assbot gives voice to mats	[15:22]
*	decimation has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[15:22]
mats	a hello	[15:23]
mircea_popescu	hai,	[15:23]
mats	!s dnssec	[15:23]
assbot	15 results for 'dnssec' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=dnssec	[15:23]
mircea_popescu	http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2177988/details.htm << if anyone in london wants to host a retiring escort...	[15:25]
assbot	Dear All,	[15:25]
mats	http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/01/15/against-dnssec/	[15:25]
assbot	Against DNSSEC — Quarrelsome ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvXP9N )	[15:25]
mircea_popescu	seems you can't be black tho.	[15:25]
mircea_popescu	mats all good points.	[15:26]
mircea_popescu	we stand against dns and against govt-sponsored pki schemes. their combination is not likely to resolve that.	[15:26]
mircea_popescu	(well minus the "modern crypto uses ecdsa")	[15:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21000 @ 0.00048985 = 10.2869 BTC [+]	[15:28]
ben_vulpes	good morning terrorists	[15:37]
ben_vulpes	http://w.b-a.link/trust/ben_vulpes/kakobrekla/json << lovely, kakobrekla thanks a mil	[15:37]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1yvZFrl )	[15:37]
mircea_popescu	hi terror brother ben	[15:37]
ben_vulpes	buenos dias	[15:38]
ben_vulpes	the apartment complex drain backed up	[15:38]
*	shovel_boss (~shovel_bo@gateway/tor-sasl/shovelboss/x-56238960) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:38]
ben_vulpes	i awoke to sewage leaking around the bathtub plug actuator	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	this somehow brings to mind iron maiden	[15:39]
*	hanbot has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[15:39]
ben_vulpes	it's a Good Morning in America™	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dzSEenqc3w	[15:39]
assbot	Iron Maiden - Holy Smoke - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw03pT )	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	!up gabriel_laddel	[15:40]
-assbot-	You voiced gabriel_laddel for 30 minutes.	[15:40]
*	assbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	you know you can assbot selfvoice ?	[15:40]
gabriel_laddel	yeah	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	"I've lived in filth, I've lived in sin, but I still smell cleaner than the shit you're in"	[15:40]
gabriel_laddel	Any #-assets members who will admit to being a fan of supreme commander or total annihilation?	[15:42]
mircea_popescu	total commander ?	[15:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00049959 = 12.8395 BTC [+] {2}	[15:43]
ben_vulpes	supreme annihilation's a pretty fun game	[15:43]
ben_vulpes	need the right partners tho	[15:43]
*	ben_vulpes eyes p. bahaha	[15:43]
ben_vulpes	http://trilema.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets/ << wish i had time for this one	[15:43]
mircea_popescu	actually the supreme commander thing looks pretty slick.	[15:43]
assbot	[OPEN] Deed system for #bitcoin-assets pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw0HUh )	[15:43]
gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mZZiI4ShQ	[15:43]
assbot	Total Annihilation Intro (brighter) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw0IaT )	[15:44]
mircea_popescu	somehow i've never played either.	[15:44]
*	Tyklol is now known as Tykling	[15:46]
gabriel_laddel	they're in the same vein of games such as diablo I&II, baulders gate, path of exile etc. Not in terms of gameplay, but overall attention to detail and cohesive structure.	[15:47]
mircea_popescu	!up Tykling	[15:48]
-assbot-	You voiced Tykling for 30 minutes.	[15:48]
*	assbot gives voice to Tykling	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	they look more like tower defense / dune2 sort of thing to me /	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	baldur's gate btw!	[15:49]
gabriel_laddel	oh ty.	[15:51]
undata	ben_vulpes: we have a buddy with an extensible IRC bot; how's that raw tx backport coming?	[15:52]
undata	er archaeology and re-implementation	[15:52]
undata	actually, it appears it would only have to be aware that a tx has occurred, not send any	[15:52]
*	assbot removes voice from bitspill	[15:53]
*	assbot removes voice from McNumpty	[15:53]
*	assbot removes voice from mats	[15:53]
ben_vulpes	undata: if you're interested in implementing, talk to MP for the spec	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	i don't really know how the transmission of btc is supposed to work for the thing	[15:55]
undata	it'd be neat if the thing paid its own bills out of its fees on some btc vps	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	probably want to decouple bot from funding actions	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	anyways	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	tx backport archaeology's an interesting thing	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	i'm starting to see some of the rationale behind the wallet paradigm - creating transactions for signing requires being able to retrieve arbitrary transactions from the blockchain	[15:56]
danielpbarron	i'd say TA is more like starcraft	[15:56]
ben_vulpes	far easier for the people working on it at the time to make some silly assumptions about what txns a user would want to sign, and then keep those txns on hand	[15:57]
ben_vulpes	creating a raw transaction requires having the previous transaction in hand in full at runtime, so as to extract the pubkey from the previous transaction	[15:57]
ben_vulpes	while this isn't strictly necessary, it's how things work now.	[15:57]
ben_vulpes	i don't know that a bitcoind would be able to verify a transaction without access to the full inputs	[15:58]
danielpbarron	i thought all you need to know is the tx id of the outputs you want to use, the private keys of the coresponding addresses, a destination, and an amount	[15:59]
ben_vulpes	to use the modern txn api, yeah	[15:59]
ben_vulpes	but!	[16:00]
ben_vulpes	to verify that you've created a valid transaction, you have to have the entirety of the previous output on hand to examine the public key	[16:00]
ben_vulpes	otherwise you just sign hash of txn, index in txn, and have no way to double check that you produced a valid signature corresponding to the pubkey to which those funds were transmitted originally.	[16:01]
ben_vulpes	danielpbarron: make sense?	[16:01]
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ben_vulpes	(one can sign anything at any time - that's not the problem. the problems crop up in a) knowing the sigs are valid and b) the multi-input, multi-privkey transaction generation use-case: how am i to know which privkeys are to be used to sign which inputs, and furthermore [and somewhat recursively] how do i know those signatures to be valid?)	[16:02]
danielpbarron	what are you signing it with?	[16:02]
ben_vulpes	a user-supplied privkey.	[16:02]
danielpbarron	the one that goes with the pubkey of the output right/	[16:03]
ben_vulpes	sure	[16:03]
ben_vulpes	how do i get the pubkey for a given output?	[16:03]
ben_vulpes	say i have the transaction hash (aka txid) and output index - how do i get the pubkey those coins were sent to?	[16:04]
danielpbarron	this is for deedbot right? don't you already know what the last pubkey was?	[16:04]
ben_vulpes	no no no	[16:04]
ben_vulpes	raw transactions	[16:04]
ben_vulpes	entirely different project	[16:04]
danielpbarron	oh well yeah you need to know the whole blockchain to verify a tx in that case	[16:05]
danielpbarron	i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee	[16:06]
asciilifeform	sorta the point of having blockchain, no ?	[16:06]
ben_vulpes	"whole blockchain" << and more specifically, a trivial lookup of txids	[16:06]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: iirc, i did mention 'can pull up arbitrary tx' as part of what a 'whole bitcoin node' has to do	[16:07]
asciilifeform	perhaps i should have given more proof	[16:08]
*	asciilifeform lazy	[16:08]
*	ben_vulpes pissing on fences	[16:08]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes not dead, therefore grew stronger	[16:09]
ben_vulpes	learned some	[16:09]
ben_vulpes	brain now contains c++, not sure if improvement	[16:09]
asciilifeform	at any rate, there is really no way to understand the thing other than - reading it	[16:09]
asciilifeform	however unpleasant	[16:09]
ben_vulpes	i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee << heinous	[16:10]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00050221 = 26.2656 BTC [+] {3}	[16:23]
davout	danielpbarron: iirc with the raw tx thing you can send zero fees without problem, there's however a safeguard against sending a massive fee	[16:25]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 9 @ 0.125 = 1.125 BTC [-]	[16:40]
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mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes> danielpbarron: make sense? << yes, that's what that is.	[16:50]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[20:56]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[20:56]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[20:56]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[20:56]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[20:58]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65131 @ 0.00048038 = 31.2876 BTC [-] {2}	[21:01]
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mircea_popescu	http://36.media.tumblr.com/1cc9a5d0cfe50e3ab506233f9f113a82/tumblr_mksvh7tuk11rl0d0yo1_500.jpg lllllllava lamp	[21:10]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1sNeXqI )	[21:10]
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mircea_popescu	davout everyone can now be a "developer". even idiots.	[21:12]
PeterL	even me :)	[21:13]
davout	mircea_popescu: o hey, what are you referring to?	[21:13]
mircea_popescu	the "o look mom, i made a github commit. it changes the spelling of comments" thing	[21:13]
mircea_popescu	PeterL there's a difference between the innocent and the stupid.	[21:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22950 @ 0.00050894 = 11.6802 BTC [+] {2}	[21:14]
PeterL	wait, which am I?	[21:14]
davout	ah, yea lol, i had a look to see if this chick had any other commits on the project, seems like it's her sole 'contribution' to the whole thing	[21:14]
mircea_popescu	davout no matter, "core contributor" nao.	[21:14]
mircea_popescu	whole slew of these, the cleaning lady wants to be "part of the team" nao.	[21:15]
davout	by this account i'm a core contributor to bitcoin too, i reset testnet once, fuck it	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	PeterL weren't you a biochemist by trade dabbling into code as a hobby recently ?	[21:15]
asciilifeform	not cleaning lady. demented bomzh who breaks into the office and takes a shit in the coffee pot.	[21:15]
PeterL	chemist, yes	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this is what us cleaning lady does.	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	PeterL so you'd be the innocent.	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	at least until proof to the contrary.	[21:15]
PeterL	ok, I'll take that	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform they don't have cleaning ladies in the classic sense, which is why conde nast is writing memos to the "journos" about keeping the place clean.	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	apparently nobody heard of a "shut.the.fuck.up.and.hire.cleaning.crew.cheapskates."	[21:16]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: what is this. every office park where i live has cleaners.	[21:17]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 100% 'spanish'	[21:17]
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mircea_popescu	same here, but who the fuck knows what they do in the soviet republic of san francisco.	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	yoga class, probably.	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla: keyids are evil << yeh davout. stop thinking about short keyids bs.	[21:18]
davout	well, i was just reading about them in the deedbot spec	[21:19]
davout	i'll let you read the convo	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	i just have.	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	what do you mean gpg doesn't return them ?!	[21:20]
davout	it does, it doesn't however return fingerprints	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	ok but then gpg --fingerprint \| grep "keid" ?	[21:22]
davout	that implies you have the key in your keyring	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	one more reason gpg has to be rewritten i guess.	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	who the fuck did this i have nfi.	[21:22]
asciilifeform	everybody here understands difference between how key id and fp are calculated ?	[21:22]
asciilifeform	and yes, it's retarded	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	ah it's there.	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	nah nah.	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	davout http://pastebin.com/66Cb1kbX	[21:23]
assbot	$ gpg -v -v --with-fingerprint gpg: Go ahead and type your message ... -----BE - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1sNixkt )	[21:23]
davout	asciilifeform: well, keyid is a part of the fpr afaik	[21:24]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform keyid is the last 16 chars of the 40 char fignerprint. and then there's an 8 char shit too. neither of these last two are any good, but hey, "usability". crap.	[21:25]
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mircea_popescu	https://evil32.com/examples.html for the innocents reading logs.	[21:26]
assbot	Evil 32: Check Your GPG Fingerprints ... ( http://bit.ly/1sNj3PC )	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla: the point is MAPPING is bad << he understands.	[21:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8350 @ 0.0005114 = 4.2702 BTC [+] {2}	[21:27]
davout	mircea_popescu: try with this guy -> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=bxxZyms9	[21:28]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1sNjDNa )	[21:28]
Apocalyptic	mircea, what is your pastebin supposed to show ?	[21:28]
davout	if you don't have the key in your ring it won't know the fpr	[21:28]
mircea_popescu	Apocalyptic the fingerprint, penultimate line.	[21:28]
undata	davout is right	[21:28]
Apocalyptic	it does show "Primary key fingerprint: 6160 E1CA C8A3 C529 66FD 7699 8A73 6F0E 2FB7 B452" because you have you own key in your keyring obviously	[21:28]
Apocalyptic	go try it on a system you have no	[21:28]
Apocalyptic	*not	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	davout if you don';t have the key you can't verify signatures, dork!	[21:29]
davout	lol, deedbot isn't supposed to verify sigs amirite	[21:29]
Apocalyptic	well this was the whole point of the discussion	[21:29]
Apocalyptic	and according to davout it's not supposed ot verify	[21:29]
undata	^ this enraged me	[21:29]
*	undata is open to correction	[21:29]
davout	i could tell	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	well apparently it just became required to verify cause otherwise it can't talk to assbot.	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	accidental spec!	[21:30]
davout	mircea_popescu: with the fingerprint for a key it could simply do what you said wrt requesting trust data as a json blob from the w.b-a.link thing	[21:30]
davout	s/for a key/for a sig/	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	davout but assbot won't respond unless he queries by fingerprints.	[21:31]
davout	yea that's the whole problem	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	IF gpg doesn't put out full fingerprints for verified keys, then gpg is broken	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	gpg: Signature made Sat 21 Aug 1999 07:04:31 PM ART using DSA key ID 8ACE3E79	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[21:31]
davout	the crux is 'verified keys', if deedbot doesn't maintain a full keyring at all times it can't pull fingerprints	[21:32]
davout	this sounds a bit overkill to me	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	defo the gpg signature model is bad.	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	feel free to fork and fix the gpg key verification process so it reports fingerpritns properly not wtf it's doing now.	[21:32]
davout	gpg can't know the fpr for a key it doesn't have, the information isn't part of the signature packet	[21:33]
Apocalyptic	mircea, note that neither the "-v" nor the "--with-fingerprint" flags are required to get the fingerprint line displayed	[21:33]
mircea_popescu	who the fuck did thius.	[21:33]
Apocalyptic	^ I asked myself the same	[21:33]
davout	see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-01-2015#980997	[21:34]
assbot	Logged on 17-01-2015 22:34:54; davout: asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was reading, it mentions user ids in the subpackets spec, but i'm unsure whether that includes an actual key fingerprint, i tend to understand that it doesn't	[21:34]
*	mircea_popescu rages	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	dude rms, you saved 24 bytes aren't you a smart fucking cookie.	[21:34]
mircea_popescu	davout only possible workaround seems keeping the lordship keys.	[21:35]
PeterL	would it be hard to maintain a keyring with all us in it?	[21:35]
undata	no	[21:35]
Apocalyptic	that's what punkman's bot did afaik	[21:35]
mircea_popescu	which i guess is not that bad, seeing how it also solves the problem of the untrustworthy pgp-sks etc	[21:35]
davout	anyway, my point wrt to deedbot is that it's supposed to be used by ppl with L1/L2 trust, it doesn't need to check gpg signatures, so let anyone with +v in -assets use it, do away with the requirement that a keyid belonging to someone in assbot's wot be presented or maliciously hammered into the message	[21:35]
mircea_popescu	so i guess ima have to modify the spec instead of finishing my "on terrorism' article.	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	davout how do you propose to query assbot for l1/l2 inclusion ?	[21:36]
davout	whoever has voice in -assets shall be deemed worthy to notarize	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	derp.	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	no, it's not ok to overload voice like that.	[21:37]
undata	this was my entire rant	[21:37]
davout	greatly simplifies the problem, don't see too much downside to it, and we're eventually moving to gossipd anyway	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	i give voice to all the whores, not to mention all sorts of known usg agents	[21:37]
PeterL	but you would still need keys to verify deed signatures?	[21:37]
undata	why should gpg exist; irc is apparently all we ever needed	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	PeterL original spec didn't call for that.	[21:37]
davout	and notary would be connected through asswot's gossipd's node anyway	[21:37]
PeterL	oh, do deeds even need to be gpg signed?	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	davout undata gossipd can well be a year or two away.	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	PeterL yes.	[21:38]
undata	mircea_popescu: I am being facetious, and argued earlier for sig verification	[21:38]
davout	let whores timestamp some blobs now and then i say	[21:38]
undata	I'm hacking on something now, but will wait for an updated spec	[21:38]
PeterL	why sign if you are not verifying?	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	incoming.	[21:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10900 @ 0.00050843 = 5.5419 BTC [-]	[21:38]
davout	undata: you fail to comprehend that it's not deedbot's job to certify to a third party that the contract is signed by an identified party, gpg already does that	[21:39]
davout	wrt to your earlier example of me scamming you, anybody can verify i signed the contract by using gpg itself	[21:39]
undata	davout: its output should be the history of valid deeds, not "that which a rubber stamp has touched"	[21:39]
davout	why the hell would it need deedbot to testify to that too ?	[21:40]
undata	god... do the proceedings of court note that a pidgeon shat on the window?	[21:40]
davout	that didn't parse	[21:40]
davout	it did derp	[21:40]
undata	have you ever been to a notary?	[21:40]
davout	why do you absolutely want to shoehorn your conception of a notary into deedbot?	[21:41]
undata	do you know what a deed is?	[21:41]
undata	or why one has it observed by a 3rd party?	[21:41]
undata	and signed as such	[21:41]
davout	we don't need Z to witness that X and Y signed a contract together, because any party can and will use GPG	[21:42]
davout	and properly verify that fact	[21:42]
davout	why would Z's word add any value to the information GPG outputs?	[21:42]
punkman	it doesn't really, but it's useful nonetheless	[21:43]
undata	keeps the published bundles down to a size that is manageable	[21:43]
undata	keeps it from being filled with useless crud with invalid sigs	[21:44]
davout	wtf is this size bzns?	[21:44]
undata	size for hands and eyeballs to verify	[21:44]
Apocalyptic	keeps it from being filled with useless crud with invalid sigs << this sounds pretty reasonable	[21:44]
undata	not disk space	[21:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00050726 = 7.6596 BTC [-]	[21:45]
punkman	davout, I'll just say that there were many cases with invalid signatures posted as deeds	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets-updated/	[21:45]
assbot	[OPEN] Deed system for #bitcoin-assets, updated. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1sNobmP )	[21:45]
davout	the whole point here is to let ppl with L2/L1 trust timestamp stuff	[21:46]
davout	and only them	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	not and only them.	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	the point is to let them create and let the whole world trust and be able to verify.	[21:47]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets-updated/	[21:48]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/what-does-desperation-look-like/	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	its point is enacting privilege, not segregation.	[21:48]
davout	what is privilege if not the differentiation from the un-privileged?	[21:49]
*	bigtip_ is now known as bigtip	[21:49]
undata	mircea_popescu: I read the payment as coming from the party wanting a signature, not the bot?	[21:49]
undata	or no	[21:50]
undata	seems fair to me; pay per use	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	undata no, payment comes from teh boty.	[21:50]
undata	whyssat?	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	but dun worry about it, i seeded the prev one an' ill seed this one too.	[21:50]
undata	k	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	davout it gotta be one way. if there's four people and they fuck in two subsets of twos, that's segregation. if there's one that fucks all other three but the rest only jack off, that's privilege.	[21:52]
davout	i see	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	is "and pushes it to public repositories" a point of contention ?	[21:54]
PeterL	wouldn't keys already be public when registering with assbot?	[21:54]
davout	mircea_popescu: well, now the bot needs a key too :-)	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	PeterL idea kinda is to make a further record of people's sigs, help guard them against mitm and other nefariousness. but as davout points out, now the bot needs a key.	[21:55]
PeterL	did it not have a key before?	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	which makes shit more complicated. however, it also makes shit perhaps better defensible ? i dunno.	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	nah.	[21:55]
davout	i don't really see a use for that	[21:56]
davout	and if the signature on the blob is required only for access control, maybe it's be better to leverage asswot's functionality directly	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	davout nah, it's required for inclusion in bthe actual deed.	[21:57]
davout	as in 'wanna timestamp some stuff? fine, verify with and otp"	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	for later ppl to be able to verify at home.	[21:57]
davout	say i want to timestamp a contract i made with someone also in the L2 group as nested clearsigns, i doesn't really matter which signature is checked by deedbot, right?	[22:02]
davout	nah, scratch that	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	it only checks outer.	[22:03]
davout	yeah well, i wanted to point out that it didn't really prevent anyone from checking the inner sig at home	[22:03]
davout	i just fail to see a good reason to make the signatures mandatory, outside of access control that is	[22:04]
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mircea_popescu	so that someone in 3714, with nothing but an inscription of deedbot's deeds, can verify our contracts just as well as we can.	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	this is the point of notarization : making the acts of men equal to the acts of god.	[22:05]
asciilifeform	unless key factored <= 3714	[22:05]
asciilifeform	not god quite yet.	[22:06]
davout	maybe we'll want to timestamp something else than contracts is what i'm thinking	[22:06]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform factorization trivially defeated by better key putting it into record :(	[22:06]
mircea_popescu	:) i mean	[22:06]
asciilifeform	gotta be alive to upgrade keys	[22:07]
asciilifeform	ozymandias - won't.	[22:07]
PeterL	you can timestamp whatever you want, as long as gpg signed first	[22:07]
davout	that's how is spec'd yes :-)	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no but suppose your 4kb key is factorized. this matter is discovered by joe on june 19th, 3211. he signs, with his 64kb key, a note saying so.	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	now, come 3714, it will be clear that uses ulterior to 3211 are null. but it will also be clear that uses prior to say, 3200 will still hold	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	davout that's how it goes, why not.	[22:10]
asciilifeform	well yes, in that case joe is, so to speak, trimming the weeds on your monument.	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	yup	[22:10]
davout	asciilifeform: also if you see a message signed with your key, and timestamped 200 years after your first timestamped message you can reasonably assumed it's been broken	[22:11]
asciilifeform	davout: lol, but what kind of idiot would do that	[22:12]
davout	say i timestamp sth in 2014	[22:12]
davout	any timestamping after 2114 is null and void, problem solves itself	[22:13]
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PeterL	I don't suppose people pass keys down to their heirs?	[22:14]
undata	davout: this business of making assumptions is not how it's done...	[22:14]
davout	PeterL: well, sign something to this effect, otherwise timestamps are inherently suspicious, esp. if factorization is possible given state of current technology	[22:16]
davout	*further timestamps	[22:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51000 @ 0.00050035 = 25.5179 BTC [-] {2}	[22:16]
davout	undata: which assumption are you referring to?	[22:16]
kakobrekla	you are suppose to assume that	[22:19]
*	PeterL has quit (Quit: PeterL)	[22:20]
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*	WolfGoethe has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)	[22:20]
*	MetatronOne has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[22:23]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.125 = 1.375 BTC [-]	[22:23]
*	Tiraspol (Tiraspol3@73.51.255.57) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:29]
*	Tiraspol has quit (Changing host)	[22:29]
*	Tiraspol (Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	I don't suppose people pass keys down to their heirs? << people well might.	[22:33]
mircea_popescu	what exactly is inheritance if not this, fundamentally, inheriting father's FIRM. ie, signature.	[22:34]
asciilifeform	nope.	[22:36]
asciilifeform	in the case of pgp key, it's rather like, in the worst case, time travel.	[22:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17400 @ 0.00050949 = 8.8651 BTC [+] {3}	[22:36]
asciilifeform	dead pope's seal is broken for a reason.	[22:37]
asciilifeform	granted, not everyone is a pope.	[22:37]
undata	asciilifeform: still seems father would sign a public statement granting his possessions to a son	[22:37]
mircea_popescu	a complicated matter.	[22:38]
asciilifeform	sure. but he does not give him the ability to retroactively emulate him	[22:38]
undata	asciilifeform: I was agreeing :)	[22:38]
asciilifeform	father might want to bind the son into some sort of 'dead hand' arrangement	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	father generally does, for "son's own good".	[22:38]
*	BayAreaCoins (180542ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.5.66.202) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:44]
asciilifeform	if son inherits signature, he can possibly unbind himself.	[22:45]
asciilifeform	or worse	[22:45]
asciilifeform	(crap all over father's posthumous good name by forging past xxxxx)	[22:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26898 @ 0.00049826 = 13.4022 BTC [-]	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	!up BayAreaCoins	[22:46]
-assbot-	You voiced BayAreaCoins for 30 minutes.	[22:46]
*	assbot gives voice to BayAreaCoins	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you can't forge past because you can' register old deeds.	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	and you can retire a key any time you feel like.	[22:46]
asciilifeform	this assumes a universally agreed upon timestamp mechanism, yes.	[22:47]
asciilifeform	if there isn't one - can forge.	[22:47]
*	BayAreaCoins has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[22:49]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes, the notary blockchain stamping mechanism.	[22:49]
mircea_popescu	quite universal.	[22:49]
kakobrekla	!s dual ec drbg	[22:52]
assbot	3 results for 'dual ec drbg' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=dual+ec+drbg	[22:52]
*	moldysnizz has quit (Quit: hydrtyni8787c3!(%%*)	[22:56]
*	PeterL (~peterl@unaffiliated/peterl) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:26]
*	assbot gives voice to PeterL	[23:27]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6902 @ 0.00049826 = 3.439 BTC [-]	[23:29]
undata	mircea_popescu: I get "No data" from the link in your spec article, and when I substitute my key's fingerprint	[23:39]
*	Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[23:39]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/on-terrorism/	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	undata lessee	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/FC66C0C5D98C42A1D4A98B6B42F9985AFAB953C4/json	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/FC66C0C5D98C42A1D4A98B6B42F9985AFAB953C4/json	[23:44]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1yrC7W6 )	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	i r see json.	[23:44]
*	Dr-G (~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61600 @ 0.0005047 = 31.0895 BTC [+] {3}	[23:46]
undata	mircea_popescu: ah right, two parameters makes sense; the article has one	[23:47]
undata	the spec intends assbots fingerprint is one param?	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	you're supposed to replace the other one with the key you're looking for	[23:47]
*	WolfGoethe (~textual@74.72.202.231) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:48]
undata	mircea_popescu: ty	[23:48]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[23:54]
*	decimation (~decimatio@unaffiliated/decimation) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:57]
*	assbot gives voice to decimation	[23:59]

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