Forum logs for 12 Jan 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
asciilifeform or what, mircea_popescu would've stayed in mathematics if not for the squigglies [00:00]
mircea_popescu there's plenty of squigglies in physics too. i never much cared. [00:00]
mircea_popescu there's no particular boon to understanding to be had from squiggling. [00:00]
asciilifeform it isn't about magical force of squiggle, but elementarily FITTING A THING ON A PAGE that would not otherwise fit in one eyeful. [00:01]
mircea_popescu my brain doesn't work by thje eyefull iom not a fucking toad omfg [00:01]
asciilifeform and if your working memory is titanic and you laugh, all that is needed is to come up with an example that straddles the line ~for you~ [00:02]
mircea_popescu do you think i presently notated the merchant of venice so 3555 liunes fit in one page ? [00:02]
mircea_popescu it's still in my fucking head. i read it. wtf. [00:02]
asciilifeform just like you can brag about being a muscle man, but i can always fill a knapsack that you cannot move with, so you cannot say 'it does not matter what a knapsack weighs!111' [00:02]
asciilifeform merchant of venice != theorem [00:02]
mircea_popescu and you're gonna paint it red and fix it ? [00:02]
mircea_popescu because why! [00:02]
asciilifeform same basic idea as cpu cache [00:03]
asciilifeform there is such a thing as fits-in-head [00:03]
mircea_popescu i'm not a fucking cpu. [00:03]
asciilifeform your head is a finite thing. [00:03]
mircea_popescu yes, and your option is to either do a retarded sort of implicity tree by using hyeroglyphicd [00:03]
asciilifeform just like everybody;s. [00:03]
mircea_popescu or else make the thing plain text and sort it in your head like a functioning brain already. [00:03]
asciilifeform if mircea_popescu posts the plaintext rigorous green's theorem, i promise to read it.. [00:04]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6285 @ 0.00051687 = 3.2485 BTC [+] {3} [00:04]
mircea_popescu you people. [00:04]
mircea_popescu that dude goes hey, rewrite this chunk of the english cannon, it is broken [00:04]
mircea_popescu then you with this [00:04]
mircea_popescu what do you think i am, a race horse ? [00:04]
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asciilifeform l0lz [00:04]
asciilifeform if i have to be shiva, mircea_popescu can be a racehorse!111 [00:05]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9165 @ 0.00051704 = 4.7387 BTC [+] [00:05]
mircea_popescu half the fucking things i do here each day and every day is exactly that, force people to properly plaintext their shit. [00:05]
mircea_popescu and he still wants a proof because the log is not here or something [00:06]
asciilifeform speaking of this & earlier thread, a treatise on 'v' philosophy is definitely a necessary thing [00:06]
mircea_popescu myeah. [00:06]
asciilifeform i tried to write it, actually, and ran out of juice [00:06]
asciilifeform ended up writing v instead [00:06]
asciilifeform easier. [00:06]
mircea_popescu got any pieces ? [00:07]
mircea_popescu i don't see this emerging other than by piecemeal correction, honestly. [00:07]
asciilifeform nothing immediately usable. might take another stab at it on the train tomorrow [00:07]
* asciilifeform is watching the scrolling logs from his trb nodez, it is like music, so smooth [00:08]
asciilifeform no 'blackholing', etc., any of it. [00:09]
asciilifeform (since patch) [00:09]
mircea_popescu For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential. [00:10]
mircea_popescu how's that. [00:10]
* asciilifeform finds himself mentally converting this to proper format !11 [00:11]
mircea_popescu lol [00:11]
asciilifeform also reminds me of canonical ru kidz rhyme, [00:11]
asciilifeform 'Тело, впернутое в воду Выпирает на свободу. С массой выпертой воды Тела, впертого туды!' [00:11]
asciilifeform (archimede's law) [00:11]
mircea_popescu let me put this another way : the first, the cheapest and most formidable weapon every science teacher has to ferret out the cheat [00:11]
mircea_popescu is to hold up a piece of exam paper and say "now explain to me what's in here". [00:11]
asciilifeform now this, yes [00:12]
mircea_popescu you know this is so. you know it distinguishes the pass from the cheat. [00:12]
mircea_popescu so then... what are we on about! [00:12]
asciilifeform ought to include even building rubber band model. [00:12]
asciilifeform the canonical representation that is to be worked with by a serious user. [00:12]
asciilifeform (vs a kid asked to prove that he hadn't cribbed.) [00:12]
asciilifeform can you picture a computeralgebratron that eats english ? [00:13]
asciilifeform that doesn't make user want to eat his pistol ? [00:13]
mircea_popescu but this is not the point! [00:13]
mircea_popescu i eat it. [00:13]
mod6 i like the idea that we could have a regular char set, like 127 bit ascii, and do everything from this. and if you need Sigma, its SIG, or LAMBDA, its LMA or Absolute Value, ABS. [00:15]
mircea_popescu no fucking way, this isn't how derive worked!!11 [00:15]
mircea_popescu pssshhhh [00:15]
asciilifeform mod6: visit a university library and read the atrocious typewriter manuscripts. [00:15]
asciilifeform and weep. [00:15]
mod6 haha. [00:15]
mircea_popescu did you or did youi not type ABS(x dx) in derive until you dropped! [00:16]
mod6 it just seems like stuff like this works well: <+mircea_popescu> For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential. [00:16]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: sure did [00:16]
mod6 and then when it doesn't there's alway some short hand one could do without resorting to unicode or PS. [00:16]
asciilifeform mod6: now verbalize a tensor. [00:17]
mircea_popescu "a tensor" [00:17]
asciilifeform or so much as an ordinary quaternion. [00:17]
asciilifeform connection from dropped (banned) [00:17]
asciilifeform connection from dropped (banned) [00:17]
asciilifeform connection from dropped (banned) [00:17]
asciilifeform connection from dropped (banned) [00:17]
asciilifeform ^ lulzz [00:17]
mod6 i dunno? sig = [T(e1)T(e2)T(e3)] [00:17]
asciilifeform ahahahaha but not verbal !! [00:18]
asciilifeform you used... notation!11 [00:18]
mircea_popescu and for the record : NO THEOREM, no rule or function or anything in ALL OF MATH can survive without the [usually more important] limits and domain definition. [00:18]
asciilifeform aha [00:18]
mircea_popescu i couldn't care less you use sigma or the integral. what matters is the foreword [00:18]
mod6 something like that? im not really only saying verbal. im just saying, hey, lets practice safe ascii. [00:18]
asciilifeform there is always chunks we haven't any shorthand for, yes [00:18]
mircea_popescu now simbolize "positive oriented curve" [00:18]
mircea_popescu so then what the bloody hell. [00:18]
asciilifeform verbal dressing is 'part of balanced diet.' [00:18]
mircea_popescu pfff [00:19]
mircea_popescu the "symbolized" math thing makes kids stupid [00:19]
mircea_popescu (they focus on the domain and fail to comprehend the limit. it's how we neded up with the power rangers in the first place. [00:19]
mircea_popescu the heresies of barbarians are not accidental, but driven by fundamental stupidities of their culture.) [00:19]
asciilifeform they are driven by what the broken pieces are that they find to glue into mosaics, are of. [00:20]
asciilifeform whether roman frescoes or 19th c. mathematics. [00:20]
mircea_popescu i bet you they all grew up as kids among a herd of wolves worshipping the symbol, never once thinking to make them write it down in words. [00:20]
mircea_popescu and then you wonder why idiot anglos have "issues" with word problems. [00:20]
mircea_popescu wonder away. [00:20]
asciilifeform wai wut [00:20]
mod6 <+mircea_popescu> "a tensor" << haha, i missed this [00:20]
asciilifeform 'tenser, said the tensor' (tm) (r) (bester) [00:21]
mircea_popescu yeah well ? [00:21]
asciilifeform lacan et al made the exact same kind of salad from words [00:21]
mircea_popescu not at all. [00:22]
asciilifeform as mathemasturbatory abusers from symbols [00:22]
mircea_popescu nah, those are just idiots, the lacan troop were actual trolls. [00:22]
mircea_popescu guy had a (rather transparent) profit motive. [00:22]
asciilifeform takes an expert entomologist to distinguish the result [00:22]
mircea_popescu this it does. [00:22]
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mod6 I guess this does actually effect us a bit -- i mean, lets say we wanna do some math modeling or expound upon some properties of something fourier whatever, and send it to the ML... now you gotta have it in ascii otherwise you can't sign it. [00:25]
mircea_popescu aha [00:26]
mircea_popescu the reason we spend so much ink on this is that it is in fact the biggest problem we met yet. [00:26]
asciilifeform y'know, just because you force the 8th bit of every bt to 0 doesn't make it 'human-readable' [00:26]
asciilifeform as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief [00:26]
asciilifeform in fact, this is exactly the kind of error that gave us xml [00:27]
mircea_popescu you're so far not content with A FINITE ALPHABET! [00:27]
mircea_popescu heathen [00:27]
asciilifeform finite includes the symbols of cultured men [00:27]
mircea_popescu you can't finite the infinite arbitrarily. [00:27]
mircea_popescu for all you knwo your kid will come up with novel shit. [00:27]
asciilifeform eh that's easy [00:27]
asciilifeform culture stopped. [00:28]
mircea_popescu pfff [00:28]
asciilifeform but in point of fact glyphs ought to work like amiga .MOD music file format. [00:28]
mircea_popescu anyway, i'm not prepared for this matter to get a ruling. [00:28]
mircea_popescu much further argument must yet be heard. [00:28]
asciilifeform i.e. you would embed the glyph, if it is a non-traditional one, and represented as an s-expr driving a vectorizer [00:29]
asciilifeform in a logical way [00:29]
mircea_popescu "as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief" [00:29]
asciilifeform (in .MOD, instrument patches are part of the file) [00:29]
asciilifeform i'm half-convinced that naggum painfully killed himself to pay for xml. [00:30]
mircea_popescu they tried the same sleigh of hand, basically. "oh, driving a vectorizer in a logical way" [00:31]
mircea_popescu how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove. [00:31]
mircea_popescu in a logical way. [00:31]
asciilifeform l0l [00:31]
asciilifeform thing is, anything the xml folks did was doomed to be an act of retardation. because they ~were~ the wrong people. [00:31]
asciilifeform the wrong people had a seat at the table. [00:31]
mircea_popescu ya im sure you're special. [00:31]
mircea_popescu the secret to winning the war isn't to make the other motherfucker die for his country. it's to discourage this motherfucking from thinking he can walk up the wall. [00:32]
asciilifeform it was a classical 'committee' thing. [00:32]
mircea_popescu so it was. [00:32]
mircea_popescu it'd have failed even more miserably if god himself sat with budhha and fucked the actual shiva on that very table. [00:33]
asciilifeform the whole xml (actually sgml, the root of the disease) crock of shit was fundamentally an intellectual crime in that it set out by pretending that sexpr did not exist, that lisp never happened [00:34]
mod6 <+mircea_popescu> how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove. << haha [00:34]
asciilifeform and 'reasoned' from there [00:34]
asciilifeform and bloviating louts got to 'solve' the 'problem' [00:34]
asciilifeform in the now very familiar usgtronic sense. [00:34]
mircea_popescu they did all sorts of stupid shit, but again, the whole "a wizard did it, to a vectorizer, logically" is enough to sink that ship. [00:34]
mircea_popescu everyone always wanting to have jets. [00:35]
asciilifeform 'truetype', the thing that made the adobe partners rich, was actually this [00:35]
asciilifeform and it worked. [00:35]
mircea_popescu ;;google truetype exploit [00:36]
gribble Project Zero: One font vulnerability to rule them all #1: Introducing ...: ; Microsoft Windows TrueType Font parsing zero-day vulnerability ...: ; Recent Zero-Day (1 more message) [00:36]
asciilifeform you are actually looking at it right now. [00:36]
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asciilifeform exploitability does not drop from the sky, no. [00:36]
phf could be looking at bdf/pcf [00:37]
asciilifeform i can write an exploitable calculator, what of it. [00:37]
mircea_popescu ima give this theory a very cautious maybe. [00:37]
asciilifeform incidentally, sgml was ibm grasping for a relevance toehold [00:40]
asciilifeform knowing that it Musted Die [00:40]
asciilifeform searched for a way to sink a claw into the living. [00:40]
asciilifeform like any proper кощей. [00:41]
asciilifeform ibm cavorted in a 'lisp never happened' parallel universe for a loooong time. [00:41]
asciilifeform arguably, even NOW. [00:41]
asciilifeform and the bloody mess worked as a magnet for ten thousand insect men [00:42]
asciilifeform fond of 'libraryizing', categorizing, classifying, filing and misfiling. [00:42]
asciilifeform see, e.g., RDF/ [00:43]
asciilifeform . [00:43]
asciilifeform OWL. [00:43]
asciilifeform these buggers ~won~, in the sense of extinguishing all life in anything they touched. [00:43]
mircea_popescu eh, life managed to extinguish itself on its very own well enough. [00:44]
trinque asciilifeform │ and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda... << with this I have no problem at all. [00:46]
asciilifeform l0l trinque missed mega-thr3ad [00:46]
trinque :( but I am enjoying it! [00:47]
phf apropos i like how cl does it, there's a set of characters that are predefined to be standard and portable, and it's basically an mp set: alphabet, digits, top row, handful of controls like newline. each character has a numeric code and a verbose name #a # #space #
ewline. there's a handful of predicates that let you query characters basic nature, upcasep/downcasep/whitespacep. that's it. an implementation though can choose to
phf include any number of extra characters, say code 120 #lambda, and also decide how it wants to present them to console/file (say, by writing unicode, or letting user choose the encoding). so a maxima machine can have a set of mathematical symbols for there and then, but not with any sort of claim to univesality. [00:48]
asciilifeform phf: iirc originally standard was to understand what glyphs are [00:49]
asciilifeform it is how character became a distinct type [00:49]
asciilifeform non-interchangeable with numerics [00:49]
asciilifeform note ^ [00:49]
asciilifeform but it was nixed, because folks other than symbolics were allowed to have their tard-say [00:49]
asciilifeform and so the result was, as always is from committee, a chimera. [00:50]
mircea_popescu wait, wut ? [00:50]
asciilifeform [00:51]
assbot 13. Characters ... ( ) [00:51]
mircea_popescu "In general, characters in Common Lisp are not true objects; eq cannot be counted upon to operate on them reliably. In particular, it is possible that the expression [00:51]
mircea_popescu (leti (eq x y)) [00:51]
mircea_popescu may be false rather than true, if the value of z is a character." [00:51]
mircea_popescu oh get the fuck out. [00:51]
asciilifeform 'Each character code is composed from a character script and a character label. The convention by which a character script and character label compose a character code is implementation dependent. [X3J13 did not approve all parts of the proposal from its Subcommittee on Characters. As a result, some features that were approved appear to have no purpose.' [00:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is CORRECT [00:51]
mircea_popescu correct to what. [00:52]
asciilifeform and it is a preemptive and permanent cure for the unicode retardation. [00:52]
asciilifeform characters as a distinct animal from numerics. [00:52]
mircea_popescu and how do i search ? [00:52]
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asciilifeform [00:52]
assbot CLHS: Function SEARCH ... ( ) [00:52]
mircea_popescu "The implementation may choose to search sequence-2 in any order; there is no guarantee on the number of times the test is made." [00:53]
mircea_popescu what ? [00:53]
asciilifeform you can search any set of anything for which equality is defined! [00:53]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that was a warning not to attach side effects to the act of comparison [00:53]
mircea_popescu who the fuck writes code like this. [00:53]
asciilifeform (who would? i've nfi) [00:54]
asciilifeform but, as when reading a municipal fire code, [00:54]
asciilifeform know that ~somebody~ must have. [00:54]
mircea_popescu dude if you imagine it is acceptable for me to sit here looking at two strings AND NOT KNOW exactly what the machine will do if i tell it to search [00:54]
mircea_popescu you're from another universe. [00:54]
asciilifeform the machine will compare every element to your search item. [00:54]
asciilifeform what part of this is a mega-mystery. [00:54]
mircea_popescu does it bubblesort ? [00:55]
asciilifeform this is not implicit in the act of searching [00:55]
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asciilifeform on any system [00:55]
mircea_popescu i wish to know wtf it does omg. [00:55]
asciilifeform by default, it starts from beginning and iterates, comparing each thing, until finds or until runs out of thing. [00:55]
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asciilifeform this is how search on an unsorted list works anywhere in the universe [00:56]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10831 @ 0.00050125 = 5.429 BTC [-] {2} [00:56]
mircea_popescu iterates ? what, by one item ? [00:56]
asciilifeform how else [00:56]
mircea_popescu no, this is not how search works "anywhere" in the universe. [00:56]
asciilifeform i get it, mircea_popescu wants boyer-moore [00:56]
asciilifeform etc [00:56]
mircea_popescu the bit discussing the cheating involved in the asm translation of search in c was added to the log about a year ago [00:56]
mircea_popescu recall it ? [00:56]
asciilifeform nope [00:57]
asciilifeform was this the old-unixen thread ? [00:57]
mircea_popescu well now ima gonna have to search won't i ;/ [00:57]
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mircea_popescu the idea was that it sacrificed outlier cases to get a better performance curve geared towards more common cases [00:58]
mircea_popescu by jumping the index, smashing stacks and doing all sorts of shenanigans. [00:59]
phf asciilifeform: i think numerics is a truly dodgy tradeoff. it took me until quite recently to grok that "character code == ascii" or "character code == unicode codepoint" are not the only two possible interpretations. [00:59]
* mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say. [01:00]
asciilifeform phf: and yet one still finds people arithmetizing on characters, thinking that they are doing nothing wrong, then wondering why unicode is retarded and anything involving it is a crock of shit where so much as a fart runs in O(N) at best [01:00]
mircea_popescu "As an example, table 13-1 shows the character labels, graphic symbols, and character descriptions for all of the characters in the repertoire standard-char except for #Space and #Newline." [01:01]
mircea_popescu what is # ? [01:01]
phf a reader dispatch character [01:01]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: pound-quote [01:02]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00050125 = 5.0626 BTC [-] {2} [01:02]
mircea_popescu mno. if we read the very table referenced, we find [01:02]
mircea_popescu SM01 # number sign [01:02]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is an in-band magic sequence denoting a named character [01:02]
mircea_popescu so apparently characters are introduced by ... an escape sequence (lol)... which happens to be... NUMBER SIGN ? [01:02]
mircea_popescu is this deliberately self-mocking humour ? [01:02]
asciilifeform it's what grew on the keyboard. [01:02]
mircea_popescu this doesn't make you lol ? [01:03]
asciilifeform could've just as easily been a ^ [01:03]
mircea_popescu but it isn't. [01:03]
mircea_popescu so characters ARE numbers, aite ? [01:03]
asciilifeform only in the sense everything else on the machine is. [01:04]
asciilifeform BUT they are not a ring. [01:04]
mircea_popescu no, in the sense that they are specifically labelled thus with a label specifically made to label numbers. [01:04]
asciilifeform mno. [01:04]
asciilifeform they are not a ring. [01:04]
asciilifeform and they are not ordered. [01:04]
mircea_popescu right, "|they could have also called it penis sign" [01:04]
mircea_popescu they aren't ordered ? so "a" > "b" returns undefined ? [01:05]
asciilifeform returns whatever satan prepared for this sinful occasion, yes. [01:05]
mircea_popescu but this is blatantly not how the alphabet goes. [01:05]
mircea_popescu a comes before b. [01:05]
phf mircea_popescu: file:///Users/pf/Desktop/documentation/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm [01:05]
phf err [01:05]
mircea_popescu lol ty . [01:06]
asciilifeform * (> # #a) [01:06]
asciilifeform debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread [01:06]
asciilifeform #: [01:06]
asciilifeform The value # is not of type NUMBER. [01:06]
phf hehe, where do people normally get this shit from??? [01:06]
asciilifeform ^ sbcl 1.1.6 [01:06]
asciilifeform phf: l0l!! everybody has this problem, aha [01:06]
phf mircea_popescu: [01:06]
assbot CLHS: Section 13.1.6 ... ( ) [01:06]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform so is there a special function to inquire which of two comes before in the alphabet ? [01:06]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there is NOT a 'the alphabet' in the cl standard ! [01:06]
mircea_popescu "Of the standard characters, those which are alphanumeric obey the following partial ordering:" [01:07]
mircea_popescu this shit's so retarded... [01:07]
mircea_popescu partial ordering ? rly ? [01:07]
asciilifeform the committee could not and did not, afaik, remotely contemplate attempting to invent unicode or similar. [01:07]
mircea_popescu so if i sort a file containing a bunch of words, i do not know if i should look for ___stuff at the end or beginning or scattered anywhere. [01:08]
mircea_popescu who comes up with this shit ? [01:08]
asciilifeform and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects. [01:08]
asciilifeform asking what 'A' + 'B' is equal to, [01:08]
asciilifeform is talking-to-the-stove. [01:08]
asciilifeform while drinking benzene by the litre. [01:08]
mircea_popescu nevertheless, sorting lists of words is the most basic, primary, entrly level task for any scribe. [01:08]
mircea_popescu and i should not be surprised, lest the scribe gets her ass colored. [01:09]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you can trivially define a partial ordering when sorting [01:09]
mircea_popescu i can also trivially define the new location of washington dc. [01:09]
asciilifeform but have to ~explicitly~ do it [01:09]
asciilifeform hey it could mov [01:09]
asciilifeform e [01:09]
asciilifeform like ulab batur !!11 [01:09]
asciilifeform *ulan [01:09]
mircea_popescu the fucking point of having an alphabet is that no, it couldn't move. [01:09]
asciilifeform kept movin' till, when, 20th c? [01:10]
asciilifeform ru alphabet moved plenty [01:10]
mircea_popescu and no, i won't be looking for the beatles records past the why records. [01:10]
mircea_popescu yes but ru are idiots. [01:10]
phf mircea_popescu: wait, partial ordering in this case means that alphabet is ordered. it's meaningless things like "is _ greater then a" that are not defined [01:10]
asciilifeform and the latin christendom, clever ? [01:10]
mircea_popescu phf and if idiots make functions going ___function where in the ordered list do i look for them ? [01:10]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's besides the point :D [01:10]
asciilifeform incidentally, was anybody else cruelly shocked as a kid when discovering that the 8th-bit upper 'ansi' character of msdos is NOT standardized ? [01:13]
asciilifeform and failing to find it on one's first unix box. [01:13]
BingoBoingo and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects. << What would Terry Davis say about this? [01:13]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: why not ask him ? [01:14]
asciilifeform iirc he's findable [01:14]
BingoBoingo Not full of benzene [01:14]
BingoBoingo findable yes, predictable output??? [01:14]
phf mircea_popescu: there are parts of standard that are underspecified :) [01:14]
mircea_popescu im unimpressed. [01:15]
asciilifeform picture if satan lifted his magic wand, and, somehow, mpex and glbse (!) and havel0l, et al, had to ALL sit down and STANDARDIZE the stock exchange ... [01:16]
phf the only redeeming quality in this case, that there aren't better standards available, except for maybe Ada (i've not looked). you end up with trade offs, or hard constraints that make the result non-portable. a positive aspect of cl standard is that you get reasonably similar behavior on very wide range of hardware, but i agree that things could always be better [01:16]
asciilifeform in a way that doesn't leave the crud exchanges simply going to a pit to die [01:17]
asciilifeform because oh noez, they get voicez!11111 [01:17]
asciilifeform representation! [01:17]
asciilifeform this is sorta what happened. symbolics co. had to 'compromise' with the turd vendors [01:17]
asciilifeform whose lisps didn't even run on a real graphical console [01:17]
asciilifeform (the entire process took place at all, as i gather, because foolishly smbx thought it could finesse the process) [01:18]
mircea_popescu and why did they ? [01:18]
mircea_popescu nothing wrong with "fuck you, you're childrten, go away. this is the spec." [01:18]
mircea_popescu it's after all what mpex did. the children did go away. [01:19]
mircea_popescu the "concerned parents" wanna-bes with them. [01:19]
asciilifeform because this was not quite it. [01:19]
asciilifeform there were multiple licensees of the original mit machine [01:19]
mircea_popescu anyway. i have no intention to bake in historical idiocy, and especially not of this ilk. [01:19]
mircea_popescu i have had enough seawater in the shape of bitcoin genesis [01:19]
asciilifeform (early on, it was not clear that smbx would annihilate the rest) [01:20]
asciilifeform much less that it would shortly after, die. [01:20]
mircea_popescu depending on who you asked, it was "not clear" that mpex will bury mtgox, let alone bitcoinica. [01:20]
mircea_popescu now that... [01:20]
asciilifeform was it mircea_popescu who had the article with the giant and his chair ? [01:20]
mircea_popescu among many others, im sure. [01:20]
mircea_popescu anyway. i have nothing against lisp, neither historically nor intellectually. but this is an unsatisfactory notion of an alphabet. [01:21]
mircea_popescu while the idea that "letters aren't numbers, sit down" is sound, [01:21]
mircea_popescu there's as the romanians say, "mai e mult pina departe". there's a lot to go to far away. [01:21]
asciilifeform so is A > α ? [01:22]
asciilifeform or not ? [01:22]
asciilifeform or do i not get an α ? [01:22]
mircea_popescu pick one. [01:22]
mircea_popescu also, do you get two A's ? [01:22]
mircea_popescu because capital alpha is A. [01:22]
asciilifeform and how about ∀ ? [01:22]
mircea_popescu you actually aim to use a dword for the alphabet encoding ? [01:23]
mircea_popescu how's it gonna fit in your head ? [01:23]
asciilifeform this is not implicit in the question, is it [01:23]
mircea_popescu suppose you limit yourself to a hundred or so of these. [01:23]
mircea_popescu that way i can look at a piece of paper with them [01:23]
* tripleslash_v (~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy) has joined #bitcoin-assets [01:23]
asciilifeform see mircea_popescu you are arithmetizing in your head [01:23]
asciilifeform from decades of habit [01:24]
mircea_popescu mno, i am merely in the habit of having a mendelev table on my fucking wall. [01:24]
mircea_popescu nature makes do with a hundred or so. you're better ? [01:24]
asciilifeform what if i said that α ought to live as an s-expr equalling (low (greek 0)) ? [01:24]
mircea_popescu is that tetha ? [01:24]
asciilifeform zero [01:24]
mircea_popescu uh [01:24]
asciilifeform (this is not a notation on any existing system, i invented it) [01:24]
mircea_popescu so you're going to just have indexes ? [01:25]
mircea_popescu isn't this contrary to everything you been saying to date ? [01:25]
asciilifeform it has useful semantic structure [01:25]
asciilifeform and is operable [01:25]
asciilifeform e.g., i can turn it into an aleph [01:25]
asciilifeform or an upper-case [01:25]
mircea_popescu why specifically "low". [01:25]
asciilifeform indices make sense ~where defined~ [01:25]
mircea_popescu why not (cool(aromatic(1)) [01:25]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: because buncha medieval bozos decided they like small/big letter [01:26]
asciilifeform because these are not meaningfully-toggleable properties of a character ? [01:26]
asciilifeform break the thing into its proper subatomics. [01:26]
mircea_popescu so do we have the complete set of "meaningfully-toggleable properties" of characters set in stone ? [01:26]
asciilifeform at least for the chars a cultured man might use [01:27]
mircea_popescu is greek low 0 equal to low greek 0 ? [01:27]
phf welcome to unicode land [01:27]
asciilifeform either true or an error and the machine kicks you for asking [01:27]
asciilifeform pick. [01:27]
mircea_popescu phf which is why i said, it's contrary to everything he was saying. [01:27]
asciilifeform i don't see how. [01:27]
asciilifeform unicode is an idiot ordering of EVERYTHING [01:27]
mircea_popescu what's the uppercase of integral sign ? [01:28]
asciilifeform itself. [01:28]
asciilifeform thing about it [01:28]
mircea_popescu what's the lowercase of the sum sign ? [01:28]
asciilifeform (if you ask for uppercase(.......) for any .... that includes such a sign, what do you expect to see ? [01:28]
asciilifeform ) [01:28]
asciilifeform same. [01:28]
asciilifeform this is, again, consistent with sanity [01:28]
mircea_popescu what happened to σ ? [01:28]
mircea_popescu and for that matter ς ? [01:29]
asciilifeform and you would set fire to a machine that behaved otherwise! [01:29]
mircea_popescu (yes, greek sigma has two lowercases!) [01:29]
asciilifeform they oughta be separate chars in alphabet then [01:29]
asciilifeform if one must have'em both. [01:29]
mircea_popescu but what of low ? [01:29]
mircea_popescu low 1 0 ? [01:29]
mircea_popescu well... tenser, said the tensor σ! [01:30]
asciilifeform l0l!!1 [01:30]
mod6 hah [01:30]
mircea_popescu also, iirc ς is worth 200 in greek [01:30]
* asciilifeform wonders if there are folks reading this on ascii terminals going 'wut' [01:31]
mircea_popescu so logically, the tensor is the lowercase of the sum, and it's equal to two Cs [01:31]
mircea_popescu i think we're close to a math breakthrough here. [01:31]
asciilifeform now all we need is some meta-lsd to inject straight into my eyeball [01:31]
asciilifeform so i can grasp. [01:31]
mircea_popescu do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ? [01:32]
asciilifeform connection from dropped (banned) << that banlist thing needs massage: why can same bugger come back 4x within the hour??!! [01:32]
asciilifeform on both boxes, no less [01:32]
mircea_popescu well do you actuallty ban or just bitcoind [01:33]
asciilifeform the latter [01:33]
mircea_popescu oh, how endearing. [01:33]
mircea_popescu you think this shit works ? what are you, new ?! [01:33]
asciilifeform ah iirc this is 'attempted connect' [01:33]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what do you have in yours, a shell callout to iptables ?!1 [01:33]
asciilifeform ick [01:33]
mircea_popescu pretty much. [01:33]
asciilifeform and we barfed over nss!11 [01:34]
mircea_popescu what can i tell you. [01:34]
trinque gun to fire today, gun to fire tomorrow. [01:34]
asciilifeform i've always wanted a '/dev/banhammer' [01:35]
asciilifeform echo p.q.r.s > /dev/fuckyou [01:35]
asciilifeform what happened to yoooooooneeex filoooosophy!111 [01:36]
asciilifeform simplicity. [01:36]
mircea_popescu this is not a bad idea [01:36]
mircea_popescu /dev/ded [01:36]
asciilifeform /dev/sad. [01:36]
phf there's probably /dev/ban on plan9 [01:36]
trinque socat is capable of such an abomination pretty easily [01:36]
asciilifeform phf: quite likely! [01:36]
asciilifeform << btw lisp world actually is equipped to answer this in a non-retarded way: [01:39]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 04:30:11; mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ? [01:39]
asciilifeform they are 'eq' but not 'equal'. [01:39]
mircea_popescu i don't see why you think this answer is not retarded. [01:39]
asciilifeform because these are useful notions? [01:39]
asciilifeform that i use every motherfuckin day? [01:40]
mircea_popescu Tubro, the fat Panamanian God of Money is a useful notion [01:40]
asciilifeform on my desk, two sheets of paper inscribed with the word 'alas' - [01:40]
asciilifeform are eq [01:40]
asciilifeform but not equal [01:40]
mircea_popescu should it be in the lisp "repertoire" too ? [01:40]
asciilifeform because they are not the SAME sheet [01:40]
asciilifeform you see no difference between this and a random piece of excreta ? [01:41]
mircea_popescu there is no actual meaning to proposing Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-sum and Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-plotin are somehow different in the "eq" manner but similar in the "equal" manner. [01:41]
mircea_popescu because the computer is not in your fucking head. [01:41]
asciilifeform if all you get is a Σ on paper - then, no [01:42]
mircea_popescu a sign is a sign. [01:42]
asciilifeform but mapping is not 1 to 1. [01:42]
mircea_popescu it carries no meaning. [01:42]
mircea_popescu attempting to make the sign carry your guts is not going to result in a functioning computer. [01:42]
asciilifeform which is why we don't [01:42]
mircea_popescu apparently we just think we don't. [01:43]
asciilifeform as in the mircea_popescu> because capital alpha is A. example, [01:43]
asciilifeform two different objects can render to same glyph [01:44]
phf mircea_popescu: this a hypothetical mechanism you guys are discussing. this is not actually in lisp [01:44]
asciilifeform because life suxx etc [01:44]
mircea_popescu phf i know. [01:44]
mircea_popescu but i think it's very instructive because i suspect we're uncovering a psychotron here. [01:44]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform not a matter of "glyph". A actually is both. [01:44]
mircea_popescu it'[s not that "my girlfriendf" and "his wife" all "look like the same woman" [01:45]
mircea_popescu you're fucking the same woman. [01:45]
asciilifeform vs vs vs vs [01:45]
assbot CLHS: Function EQ ... ( ) [01:45]
assbot CLHS: Function EQUAL ... ( ) [01:45]
assbot CLHS: Function EQL ... ( ) [01:45]
assbot CLHS: Function BIT-AND, BIT-ANDC1, BIT-ANDC2... ... ( ) [01:45]
assbot CLHS: Function =, /=, <, >, <=, >= ... ( ) [01:45]
phf i think if my lisp rendered same character but claimed that they are not char=, i would be very unhappy [01:46]
asciilifeform is quite certainly in lisp. [01:46]
asciilifeform phf: apparently you don't greek enough... [01:46]
mircea_popescu phf well if you have this tag-and-glyph duality you're wide fucking open to the issue. [01:46]
phf you can't make any statements about chars using eq. eq is a special beast used to test ~von neumann~ identity. and all the comments in the spec are related to that. sometimes (eq 1 1) but (eq 123123 123123) is not [01:48]
phf it's a totally technical low level detail for explicitly managing your memory, and speeding up operations [01:48]
phf you can expect eq to compile to some asm level equality procedure [01:49]
mircea_popescu or in a less charitable view, it's a half assed attempt to hand-gcc. [01:49]
phf bringing this into char discussion makes no sense whatsoever because spec explicitly says you can't [01:49]
phf mircea_popescu: correct [01:49]
asciilifeform phf: my point was to illustrate the notion of meaningfully different concepts of equality-predicate [01:49]
mircea_popescu it didn't work. [01:50]
asciilifeform only a subset of which sanely applicable to characters [01:50]
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asciilifeform fact is, a system which tries to pretend that it makes sense to ask what A + ∀ is equal to, or even whether A > ∀, makes no more sense than one which tries to define the mass of the colour purple. [01:53]
asciilifeform one which lets you programmatically specify an operation which yields A when given an ∀, is marginally saner [01:53]
asciilifeform but in point of fact this actually reduces to the naming problem ! [01:54]
asciilifeform from this morning ! [01:54]
asciilifeform << thread [01:55]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2016 13:49:26; mircea_popescu: naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it. [01:55]
asciilifeform arguably 'how to draw an alpha' is a a name-problem question [01:55]
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asciilifeform as is the answer to arbitrary crapolade, e.g., whether A > ∀. [01:55]
asciilifeform what would make sense is for folks plugged into a mircea_popescutron to get the requisite answer when they ask it [01:56]
asciilifeform see my ancient idiocy, [01:56]
assbot kyristor ... ( ) [01:56]
* asciilifeform to bed. [01:57]
mircea_popescu at the rate this discussion is going, the alt-"lisp" will need a pun function which tells you if the string was used in pun. [01:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6950 @ 0.00050643 = 3.5197 BTC [+] [01:59]
mircea_popescu but as far the machine is concerned, there is no difference between sum-sigma and letter-sigma. nor any meaning to any symbol. and so the whole "oh we gotta have universal quantifier as a symbol" is to my eyes an exercise of naming the function "understanding" so as to get ai. [02:01]
mircea_popescu the computer ain't working any better because it "knows" supposedly that ∀. and neither is anything else. [02:01]
mircea_popescu you can say "for any x" just as well as you can say " ∀ x". [02:01]
mircea_popescu "∀ x ∈ R ∃! y ∈ R ∋ x + y = 0" offers exactly no benefit over "for any real number there exists another real number so that the two add to 0". [02:02]
mircea_popescu not even of the "impress chicks" variety. [02:02]
mircea_popescu there IS however a fucking marked cost. and it's of the "how do we make colored unicode people" type. [02:03]
phf i will support cyrillic in my lisp, only because, it was used to write by lenin --mayakovsky [02:07]
mircea_popescu anyway, i'm off. laters! [02:09]
trinque mircea_popescu │ "∀ x ∈ R ∃! y ∈ R ∋ x + y = 0" offers exactly no benefit over "for any real number there exists another real number so that the two add to 0". << ftr I am precisely the african that would benefit from the math textbook written in *only* this manner. [02:25]
trinque why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway [02:30]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00050643 = 1.8738 BTC [+] [02:32]
* pete_dushenski (~pete_dush@unaffiliated/pete-dushenski/x-8158685) has joined #bitcoin-assets [02:43]
* assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski [02:44]
pete_dushenski she had logs for days [02:44]
punkman dis thread [02:44]
punkman good morning pete [02:44]
pete_dushenski good evening punk :) [02:45]
punkman << and it looks super weird if you use the wrong one [02:49]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 04:27:01; mircea_popescu: (yes, greek sigma has two lowercases!) [02:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00050473 = 4.164 BTC [-] {2} [02:49]
pete_dushenski "GM has put a 60-kWh lithium-ion battery that weighs just just 960 pounds into the floor of the Bolt. As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge. That full charge takes nine hours on a Level 2 EVSE thanks to the onboard 7.2-kW charger. Of course, a full charge won't be that important most days, which is why GM says that you can get 50 miles of range in "less [02:50]
pete_dushenski than two hours" on Level 2" << numbers for (playing) Bingo(Boingo) [02:50]
punkman and it does happen that something was uppercase and shitty software lowercases the sigma wrong [02:50]
punkman even if you hate the Unicode folks, they have actually codified a lot of these things and it mostly seems to work [02:53]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00050283 = 10.9114 BTC [-] {2} [02:53]
pete_dushenski << the internet knows no limits ! [02:55]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2016 06:36:31; BingoBoingo: copypaste: I suspect the reason you dislike pete_dushenski aping trilema is he comes from boring Canada and his cool factor and empire potential are limited by that. [02:55]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: Face it. Canada impaired your maximum potential to be interesting at this time. [02:57]
pete_dushenski yes, i shoulda been born in riyyad [02:57]
punkman you just need to kill more people pete_dushenski [02:57]
BingoBoingo Or move to Cameroon, or Cambodia [02:58]
pete_dushenski punkman: if only to balance the life i'm adding to the planet. [02:58]
punkman "carbon neutral" ! [02:58]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: at least i don't live under clitler (if still natoreich) [02:58]
BingoBoingo What about your new PMS in charge? [02:59]
pete_dushenski punkman: i'm a greenie like that, what can i say [02:59]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: the kid knows his ashtanga from his saatva and not a lot besides. trudeau's as innocent as a butterfly, which is why chix dig him and dudes couldn't care less. he's nowhere near as much of a strong retard as the commie premier cunt running alberta for the next 3.5 years [03:01]
BingoBoingo You could give oregon or nevada a try [03:01]
pete_dushenski though in all seriousness, if the dumb bitches pretending to be 'drop-in daycares' and 'nannies' don't start returning phone calls and text in a timely manner, IF AT ALL, i'm a seriously cut their useless lives short. [03:03]
pete_dushenski some fat needs to be trimmed around here, whether that idjits going back to wherever the fuck they came from (ftr no one is "from" alberta) or they can learn that business isn't this thing where money and clients rain down from the sky and it's all you can do to beat them back at the door [03:04]
punkman they are catching on [03:04]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: you could try iqaluit too. nice and quiet there. [03:05]
deedbot- [Qntra] Intel Skylake Brings Optimized #ROWHAMMER Exploit - [03:05]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: Is there and armed insurrection in iqaluit? [03:06]
ben_vulpes << ? [03:06]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 03:58:23; *: mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say. [03:06]
assbot Logged on 29-04-2015 13:25:03; mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a [03:06]
deedbot- [cascadian hacker] The Monotonically-Increasing Fucked-up-ed-ness of Apple Software (or, how to sync your contacts to the iPhone without exhuming Steve Himself) - [03:06]
pete_dushenski ben_vulpes: aha. an update from the glitzy trenches. cheers [03:07]
punkman BingoBoingo: "In spite of supposing" maybe "expectations" [03:07]
BingoBoingo punkman: fxd to "marketing [03:08]
punkman heh [03:08]
pete_dushenski "(no, not using an iPhone of the most recent vintage is not an option)" << because ? [03:09]
pete_dushenski if 5, why not 6 ? [03:09]
* trinque has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [03:10]
* copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) [03:10]
pete_dushenski "For all that it appears to be a JS abomination running on the iPhone, the Google Mail application routinely trounces the Apple Mail application in searching, rendering, speed, and more or less everything one would want from an email application on the phone." << beats desktop (eg. thunderbird) handily as well. web-gmail just... wins. [03:11]
pete_dushenski ben_vulpes: no mention of ios or osx versions in that piece. presumably this matters, no ? [03:13]
pete_dushenski i'm probably not the only one who's curious about the software versions [03:13]
ben_vulpes if vcard import breaks i want to hear about it. [03:14]
BingoBoingo [03:14]
assbot ... ( ) [03:14]
ben_vulpes but i don't have a comment section, won't. [03:14]
* JPT has quit (Quit: Hoppla!) [03:15]
ben_vulpes optionality left as exercise. [03:15]
* JPT ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [03:15]
* ben_vulpes did not have wordspace in the above piece to explain the dev entanglement hat-trick steve pulled [03:15]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: mega-lol [03:16]
ben_vulpes man these greentexts do not even resemble those of my childhood [03:17]
ben_vulpes buncha kids [03:17]
ben_vulpes my lawn etc [03:17]
mats why not just modify 'CLFLUSH' to do the same thing as 'CLFLUSHOPT' [03:17]
mats i don't get it, why another instruction [03:17]
ben_vulpes nary a walk the dinosaur in sight [03:17]
pete_dushenski for my part on the phone-comp sync experiments, i'm pleased to report that the razr syncs like a charm via 10.6 'isync' once contacts are moved from sim storage to phone storage. the catch being that your next phone would also have to sync using 'isync' or else you'll have to switch the contact back to sim storage before changing phones. [03:19]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4421 @ 0.00050473 = 2.2314 BTC [+] {2} [03:19]
pete_dushenski but since no one else on god's green earth actually uses this set-up, it's probably a moot point [03:20]
ben_vulpes my personal phone goal is an engineering team that is on call so that i don't have to have a phone [03:20]
BingoBoingo i don't get it, why another instruction << Because Intel [03:20]
BingoBoingo How can Apple buy Skylake for Macbook if not new instructions with -opt appended [03:21]
mats also, you misspelled the instruction in qntra piece [03:21]
BingoBoingo I left out the L or did I do that and need to capitalize the whole thing? [03:22]
pete_dushenski ;;later tell mircea_popescu "acorss" lurking in your last piece [03:22]
gribble The operation succeeded. [03:22]
mats left out the L [03:22]
BingoBoingo fxd [03:23]
ben_vulpes whoa whereza trinque [03:24]
BingoBoingo Other Skylake lulz if someone (cough, cough, mats) wants to throw together a larger Intel and skylake suck piece [03:26]
assbot Intel Skylake Bug Causes PCs To Freeze During Complex Workloads - Slashdot ... ( ) [03:26]
BingoBoingo "Prime95, which has historically been used to benchmark and stress-test computers, uses Fast Fourier Transforms to multiply extremely large numbers. A particular exponent size, 14,942,209, has been found to cause the system crashes." [03:27]
punkman [03:32]
assbot We saw some really bad Intel CPU bugs in 2015, and we should expect to see more in the future ... ( ) [03:32]
punkman BingoBoingo: lulzy oregon standoff bits here [03:35]
assbot Amanda Peacher (@amandapeacher) | Twitter ... ( ) [03:35]
punkman "County Judge Steve Grasty says he intends to bill Ammon Bundy for $60k to $75k in daily county costs due to occupation." [03:36]
BingoBoingo ty punkman [03:40]
BingoBoingo In other news Alabama won the National Championship with an onside kick. Anyone looking for the video is advised to find the Russian audio commentators for maximum excitement, Roll Tide. [03:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11750 @ 0.00050787 = 5.9675 BTC [+] [03:42]
punkman "Roll Tide is the rallying cry for the Alabama Crimson Tide athletic teams. The trademark to the phrase is claimed by the University of Alabama, with licensing and marketing by The Collegiate Licensing Company." [03:48]
BingoBoingo I still have no idea why their mascot is an elephant [03:49]
punkman maybe The Collegiate Licensing Company said elephant would sell well [03:50]
BingoBoingo Could be? [03:51]
BingoBoingo ALSO LOOK AT google breaking the law in the united states by distributing this: [03:54]
assbot The Royal Bank of Scotland plc - Stabilisation notice | Business Wire ... ( ) [03:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00050794 = 8.889 BTC [+] {2} [03:59]
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punkman !up Tomiii [04:01]
* assbot gives voice to Tomiii [04:01]
Tomiii Hello, does anyone know how you make a bunch of GPG private keys from a single Seed? like you can do with bitcon wallet? [04:03]
Tomiii or also, how to make a "brain wallet" for a single GPG privkey, or even a Seed? [04:03]
Tomiii [04:04]
assbot Phidelius: Constructing Asymmetric Keypairs From Mere Passwords For Fun and PAKE | Dan Kaminsky's Blog ... ( ) [04:04]
BingoBoingo That sounds like a very bad idea [04:04]
deedbot- [Qntra] RBS Supports Qntra's Dire Predictions For Fiat In 2016 - [04:05]
Tomiii BingoBoingo: if you can do it with bitcoin privatekeys, why not GPG keys? [04:05]
BingoBoingo Very different kinds of math involved [04:05]
Tomiii BingoBoingo: people said the same thing about determinstic wallets in bitcoin (at first), but now they are pretty popular [04:05]
BingoBoingo Generating GPG keys that don't suck is hard because RSA encryption is decrypted by division. Too easy to divide, falls. ECDSA in Bitcoin gets more breathing room for now because not as straight forward. [04:06]
Tomiii pretty funny that PGP is lagging behind bitcoin, when it had like 30-year head-start [04:06]
BingoBoingo It [04:06]
BingoBoingo is completley different types of math. Factoring versus elliptics curves involving lines and shit. [04:07]
BingoBoingo If one your your GPG key's factors is a low prime like 17 or 23, you're fucked. [04:07]
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Tomiii BingoBoingo: o i c. so you can do it with ECC keys in GPG 2.1? [04:08]
BingoBoingo Why would anyone use GPG2, or ECC when RSA is available [04:09]
danielpbarron can I encrypt a message to your bitcoin private key? [04:09]
BingoBoingo Tomiii: It should be possible in theory, but why seems iffy. [04:09]
danielpbarron "If it's worth upgrading, it wasn't worth using in the first place." (TM) [04:09]
Tomiii BingoBoingo: well, determinstic keys, and much smaller keys. possibly as small as a bitcoin address. [04:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26909 @ 0.00050575 = 13.6092 BTC [-] {2} [04:10]
punkman Tomiii: here, but probably not a great idea [04:10]
assbot arttukasvio/deterministic · GitHub ... ( ) [04:10]
Tomiii BingoBoingo: what are the downsides of ECC in gpg? [04:10]
BingoBoingo Tomiii: Well, the general downsides of ECC. At least in Bitcoin the public key isn't even public unless an address has spent a transaction. [04:11]
BingoBoingo RSA offers a longer hisotry of being studied and attacked [04:11]
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BingoBoingo But generally when it comes to keys, HUGE is good [04:11]
* Disconnected (Network is unreachable). [04:29]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [09:38]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [09:38]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [09:38]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [09:38]
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* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [09:39]
mircea_popescu RSA offers a longer hisotry of being studied and attacked << more importantly, it actually fits in head. a 12 yo's head. [09:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00050523 = 10.9635 BTC [+] {2} [09:39]
mircea_popescu ecc has yet to have been fit in any heads. [09:39]
asciilifeform << this is actually a mega-l0l - a virtually 100% gossipd WITH 100% NSA CRYPTO [09:40]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 08:12:29; punkman: [09:40]
asciilifeform i woke up and read the docz, almost fell out of bed: [09:40]
asciilifeform 'CRYPTO_SECRETBOX is a combination of poly1305 (MAC) and xsalsa20 (stream cipher) that is used to encrypt the URCLINE. The taia96n label, CMD, and random bytes are used as the NONCE, and the secret key is chosen prior to encryption.' [09:40]
asciilifeform did not see any reason to read beyond this. [09:40]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform lemme say this to you : [09:40]
mircea_popescu "pătratul lungimii ipotenuzei este egal cu suma pătratelor catetelor" [09:40]
mircea_popescu what did i say ? [09:40]
asciilifeform pythagor ? [09:41]
mircea_popescu aha. [09:41]
asciilifeform and yes, we know that it worked for the greeks. [09:42]
mircea_popescu now what's the symbol for hypotenuse ? or do we not know this exists. [09:42]
asciilifeform they were not trying to build 5,000-story towers! [09:42]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you will note THEY ALSO DID NOT NEED TO. [09:42]
asciilifeform no symbol because the greeks were not averse to actually drawing the triangle. [09:42]
asciilifeform but go and draw a hilbert space. [09:42]
mircea_popescu don't idly suppose you're better than the greeks just because you have more maggots eating more cans of spam. [09:42]
asciilifeform me - no. gauss - motherfucking yes. [09:43]
mircea_popescu gauss wrote his shit out. review the notes. [09:43]
mircea_popescu so did newton. so did all of them. so did fucking feynman which is WHY youadmire him [09:43]
mircea_popescu not coincidental to the admiration, but integral. [09:43]
asciilifeform feynman used standard mathematical notation. [09:43]
asciilifeform and yes, explained the basics, he was a teacher ! [09:44]
mircea_popescu he reads it out half the fucking time [09:44]
asciilifeform but note that he did not try 'let's use only ascii for all of mathematics' [09:44]
mircea_popescu the difference between a thinking man and a hack is that a hack goes "hey, i can't explain this without a blackboard" [09:44]
mircea_popescu he did, yes, but i won't count it because at his time (40s) he had no other options. [09:44]
asciilifeform he had the option of typesetting on a 'selectric' and having that go straight to press [09:45]
mircea_popescu his work, on the machines, is actually quite lispy. in the ONLY UPPERCASE EXISTS sense of lispy [09:45]
asciilifeform as many poor profs did [09:45]
mircea_popescu he was an actual researcher. [09:45]
mircea_popescu had to run the machines to do things. [09:45]
asciilifeform incidentally, serious researchers often ended up doing the selectric-to-web-press thing, on account of sheer hurry [09:45]
asciilifeform BUT if the product was any good, it always got redone and typeset properly [09:46]
asciilifeform i wouldn't buy an ascii-art edition of feynman. [09:46]
mircea_popescu so let it be said : that alphabet can NAME way more things than your symbolics can ever dream to represent. and for that matter, that from the multi-millenarian history of world culture, alphabetic notation does indeed convey richer, more numerous ideas in less space than hyeroglypghics do. which is why we fucked the chinese, and why egypt is muslim now. [09:47]
mircea_popescu BUT if the product was any good, it always got redone and typeset properly << "if the product were any good it was always mass produced". hurr. [09:47]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: alphabet != 26 idiot letters [09:48]
asciilifeform and most cultures were mathematically zeroes. [09:48]
asciilifeform until some folks broke free of the must-verbalize crapolade. [09:48]
mircea_popescu looky : neither the egyptians nor the greeks were mathematically zeroes. [09:49]
mircea_popescu the alphabetic greeks overtook the hyeroglyphic egyptioans. for this reason and this alone. [09:49]
mircea_popescu mujch in the manner europe overtook china. [09:49]
asciilifeform i get it, there is a fashion in the derp army of going around and 'i'm a visual thinker!11111'. this changes nothing. there are napoleons in your local loony bin, does not change the historic fact of napoleon. [09:49]
mircea_popescu only 2000 years earlier. [09:50]
mircea_popescu but so far we doth not even agree on the historical facts [09:50]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: neither had effective long division. [09:50]
mircea_popescu the greeks had pi. [09:50]
asciilifeform ~on account of notation~, yes. [09:50]
mircea_popescu the egyptians had... unusable pi. [09:50]
asciilifeform go sail atlantic with pi. [09:50]
mircea_popescu long division bitch! [09:50]
mircea_popescu words have meanings! [09:50]
mircea_popescu even if symbols don't. [09:50]
* asciilifeform bbl, must meet the party's five-year plan [09:51]
mircea_popescu 萬里! [09:52]
mircea_popescu "the square of the length of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the catheti", for the curious. kids the world over (in those places with an actual culture, as opposed to hunter-gatherer societies of primitives) actually learn this by heart, and it's one of the first steps on the stair they ever meet. [09:56]
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mircea_popescu ;;later tell pete_dushenski actually speaking of pankkake, he did resolve [10:02]
gribble The operation succeeded. [10:02]
assbot Test de cultura termodinamica on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [10:02]
* assbot gives voice to shinohai [10:03]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13550 @ 0.00049855 = 6.7554 BTC [-] [10:17]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14077 @ 0.00049819 = 7.013 BTC [-] {2} [10:20]
mircea_popescu << i can't discern which side you're taking. [10:32]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 05:28:22; trinque: why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway [10:32]
mircea_popescu do you mean "this" manner, as in the latter ? or actually "that" manner, as in the former. [10:33]
mircea_popescu "f course, a full charge won't be that important most days," << god fucking help them once memory effects and other such things start taking a toll. the full prospect should read " As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge about 20 or so times. Good fucking luck with your new disposable car!" [10:34]
mircea_popescu but hey, it ain't fraud if usg does it, right ? [10:35]
mircea_popescu << i don't hate the unicode folk. i hate the notion that we'd include all this in the first place. once we decide "we need it", i'd actually prefer unicode to any adhoc herpderping. [10:35]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 05:51:38; punkman: even if you hate the Unicode folks, they have actually codified a lot of these things and it mostly seems to work [10:35]
mircea_popescu << heh welcome to post-industrial society. [10:38]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 06:02:19; pete_dushenski: some fat needs to be trimmed around here, whether that idjits going back to wherever the fuck they came from (ftr no one is "from" alberta) or they can learn that business isn't this thing where money and clients rain down from the sky and it's all you can do to beat them back at the door [10:38]
mircea_popescu "i know... we'll offshore everything to china and live off a '''service economy'''. then we won't bother getting off the couch. win-win!" [10:38]
mircea_popescu << yes! love ya. [10:39]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 06:04:08; ben_vulpes: << ? [10:39]
mircea_popescu lol ben_vulpes that shit is so retarded. [10:51]
mircea_popescu why even bother with the phone after that ? [10:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00049855 = 7.5281 BTC [+] [10:53]
mircea_popescu << eh gtfo. if the police shows up and does anything above and beyond fining the shop for spurious call they're remiss. [10:54]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 06:12:11; BingoBoingo: [10:54]
mircea_popescu << o hey check it out, you aspire to be me! [10:55]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 06:18:05; ben_vulpes: my personal phone goal is an engineering team that is on call so that i don't have to have a phone [10:55]
mircea_popescu "Amanda Peacher @amandapeacher · 11h11 hours ago Burns mayor to Bundys: "Our community does not want you here." Big applause. #Oregonstandoff111 retweets 118 likes " "Amanda Peacher @amandapeacher · 11h11 hours ago Packed house for tonight's community mtg in Burns about the #Oregonstandoff. " << yeah, i'm sure it was packed. all with [10:59]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2016 19:04:25; mircea_popescu: << there, consider that. [10:59]
mircea_popescu i have absolutely no idea what these bundy dudes must be thinking to elevate the usg charade into relevancy through participating. but then again... can't trust one to think that's not got a pubkey, can you. [11:00]
mircea_popescu << this is a pretty stupid idea. [11:02]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 07:01:02; Tomiii: Hello, does anyone know how you make a bunch of GPG private keys from a single Seed? like you can do with bitcon wallet? [11:02]
mircea_popescu "In connection with the offer of the above securities, the Stabilising Manager(s) may over-allot the securities or effect transactions with a view to supporting the market price of the securities at a level higher than that which might otherwise prevail. " [11:03]
mircea_popescu aaaahahahaha [11:03]
mircea_popescu "we're into fraud!" [11:03]
mircea_popescu !rated tomiii [11:04]
assbot tomiii is not registered in WoT. [11:04]
mircea_popescu << a board meeting decided to make the qntra good. [11:05]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 07:38:29; ben_vulpes: jokes through the roof [11:05]
shinohai !gettrust Tomii [11:08]
assbot Tomii is not registered in WoT. [11:08]
shinohai >.> [11:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00050587 = 1.8717 BTC [+] {3} [11:54]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7187 @ 0.0005072 = 3.6452 BTC [+] {2} [12:04]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13700 @ 0.00050413 = 6.9066 BTC [-] {2} [12:23]
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punkman [13:14]
assbot ... ( ) [13:14]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2850 @ 0.00050661 = 1.4438 BTC [+] [13:15]
mircea_popescu am i missing something ? [13:15]
punkman probably not [13:18]
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punkman another gossipd [13:21]
assbot ssbc/docs · GitHub ... ( ) [13:21]
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mircea_popescu !up ascii_butugychag [13:29]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_butugychag for 30 minutes. [13:29]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [13:29]
ascii_butugychag 'For private sharing, Scuttlebot uses libsodium to encrypt confidential log-entries.' [13:30]
ascii_butugychag ahahahaha [13:30]
ascii_butugychag betcha there will be 1,001 usg gossipd. [13:30]
ascii_butugychag the folks writing those, are not doing it on the train to/from day job. [13:30]
mircea_popescu this is like saying "women doing a shitty job fucking are doing it in the bedroom" [13:32]
mircea_popescu yes, they are. [13:32]
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ascii_butugychag << i would much like to attend a concert hall directed by mircea_popescu. understand, just to watch the faces of the musicians when they open their scores and discover, instead of musical notation, 'do re mi.....' x 100,001 !1 [13:34]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 13:33:54; mircea_popescu: << i don't hate the unicode folk. i hate the notion that we'd include all this in the first place. once we decide "we need it", i'd actually prefer unicode to any adhoc herpderping. [13:34]
mircea_popescu !up psztorc [13:35]
-assbot- You voiced psztorc for 30 minutes. [13:35]
* assbot gives voice to psztorc [13:35]
mircea_popescu ascii_butugychag i direct my concers by frowning. [13:35]
ascii_butugychag << li poly batt. has no memory effect. but what it does have is rapid cycle wear (and evens shelf rot) [13:35]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 13:32:43; mircea_popescu: "f course, a full charge won't be that important most days," << god fucking help them once memory effects and other such things start taking a toll. the full prospect should read " As previously announced, the Bolt's 288 cells will be able to go over 200 miles on a full charge about 20 or so times. Good fucking luck with your new disposable car!" [13:35]
mircea_popescu and if ytou think anyone reads those fucking things while being directed... [13:35]
ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu: l0l!11 [13:35]
ascii_butugychag << aha. see also 'isis' etc. [13:36]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 13:58:38; mircea_popescu: i have absolutely no idea what these bundy dudes must be thinking to elevate the usg charade into relevancy through participating. but then again... can't trust one to think that's not got a pubkey, can you. [13:36]
ascii_butugychag no pubkey? no soul. [13:36]
mircea_popescu "the lord doesn't know of you" [13:36]
ascii_butugychag << wai wut?! srsly? just like that, public confession ? [13:36]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 14:01:05; mircea_popescu: "In connection with the offer of the above securities, the Stabilising Manager(s) may over-allot the securities or effect transactions with a view to supporting the market price of the securities at a level higher than that which might otherwise prevail. " [13:36]
ascii_butugychag no amount of 'will!11111', virility, non-pencildickery, counts for ~shit~ if you have no soul. beasts of the motherfucking field, the lot of'em. [13:37]
ascii_butugychag wild boar builds nothing. [13:38]
ascii_butugychag (he has the virtue of not building towers of own shit, like farm swine, but that's the beginning and end of it) [13:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3712 @ 0.00050653 = 1.8802 BTC [-] {2} [13:42]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50038 @ 0.00050119 = 25.0785 BTC [-] {4} [13:43]
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adlai clef notation is worse than useless, because it sparks endless bikeshedding about whether E sharp "ever is or could be equal to" F [13:50]
BingoBoingo in case its not clear BingoBoingo i'm a fan of your work << ty ben_vulpes [13:51]
adlai << fwiw this is how movie scores are recorded [13:51]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 16:33:39; mircea_popescu: and if ytou think anyone reads those fucking things while being directed... [13:51]
adlai the highest per-minute income for a serious 'session musician' is their sightreading ability [13:52]
adlai bonus points if they can sight-transpose... triple bonus if they can do it in the direction unnatural for their instrument's historic bias [13:52]
adlai eg, ask a trumpet player to transpose to G sharp [13:53]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14999 @ 0.00050364 = 7.5541 BTC [+] {2} [13:55]
thestringpuller !up ascii_butugychag [13:56]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [13:56]
thestringpuller Live from the labor camp as wild asciilifeform appears. [13:56]
ascii_butugychag << adlai is a concert musician ? plays music from a score every day of the week ? [13:56]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 16:48:30; adlai: clef notation is worse than useless, because it sparks endless bikeshedding about whether E sharp "ever is or could be equal to" F [13:56]
ascii_butugychag or simply derping about, prescribing tools for folks who actually ~do~, as if proposing stalls for cattle ? [13:57]
thestringpuller LOL ascii_butugychag sounds like my piano teacher! (who is also russian). "Who needs score? Play jazz learn from memory" [13:57]
ascii_butugychag who needs the piano [13:57]
ascii_butugychag play in the air. [13:57]
ascii_butugychag aha [13:57]
shinohai ! [13:58]
ascii_butugychag play own arse, fart [13:58]
thestringpuller from my studies, I thought that jazz musicians routinely passed down songs via audition rather than sight (via score). [13:59]
psztorc So, "bitcoin classic", with a 2 MB blocksize limit, is likely to have >60% hashrate at this time tomorrow. [13:59]
psztorc Very interesting that you are talking about music theory. [13:59]
thestringpuller it wasn't until someone was bored enough to write the thing down that you got Fake Books and stuff of the "American Song Book" [13:59]
* adlai has probably spent more hours playing music than writing lisp, although the trends seem headed for a reversal in a couple years [13:59]
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ascii_butugychag psztorc: see [14:00]
assbot The Hard Fork Missile Crisis | Qntra ... ( ) [14:00]
adlai thestringpuller: compare to shakuhachi tradition, where a song isn't "yours" until you've a) tweaked out your own version, and b) taught it to your students [14:00]
psztorc I've read it, of course. [14:00]
psztorc I just expected something a little more dramatic, I guess. [14:00]
BingoBoingo << li poly batt. has no memory effect. but what it does have is rapid cycle wear (and evens shelf rot) << /me seriously interested on data on catalytic caps for FeNi batteries, for 2025 wizard tower [14:01]
ascii_butugychag psztorc: 'dramatic' is not when the rockets go up, but when they come down. [14:01]
psztorc Maybe they're very quiet when they take off. [14:02]
psztorc : ) [14:02]
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thestringpuller i can confirm from my experience with kerbal space program, it's much more dramatic reentering the atmospher than leaving it [14:02]
mats hue [14:03]
assbot ISIS burns fighters alive for letting Ramadi fall | Fox News ... ( ) [14:03]
BingoBoingo So, "bitcoin classic", with a 2 MB blocksize limit, is likely to have >60% hashrate at this time tomorrow. << Where does this spz come from? I just woke up. [14:03]
psztorc According to a reliable friend, they already have 40% committed, and according to a different friend, the Chinese miners will agree to join the 40%. [14:05]
adlai psztorc: i'm more interested in measuring the seismic trembles as miners agonize over raising their soft limit past 1MB... ie, being the guinea pig that expends their own hashpower-hours to verify whether or not it's all a fluffy bluff [14:05]
ascii_butugychag не шагу назад (тм) (р) [14:05]
* assbot removes voice from psztorc [14:05]
adlai !up psztorc [14:06]
* assbot gives voice to psztorc [14:06]
psztorc [14:06]
assbot Bitcoin Classic ... ( ) [14:06]
BingoBoingo psztorc: Mebbe this reliable friend would be interested in an interview? [14:06]
adlai "hard limit" = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE === "I don't accept a block larger than X", soft limit = relevant only for miners === "I produce blocks up to X" [14:06]
mats hue hue [14:06]
assbot Operativo "Cisne negro". - YouTube ... ( ) [14:06]
psztorc I am aware of the relative lack-of-influence of miners in this case. [14:06]
punkman o hey there's gavin in dev list [14:07]
psztorc I bring it up because it is in contrast to XT, which no one really liked. [14:07]
mats alleged raid against 'el chapo' [14:07]
psztorc This has two larges exchanges as well. [14:07]
shinohai Goddamnit, can Gavin Andresen make up his mind what he wants? [14:07]
* adlai should maybe have used Y for the soft limit example; these are different parameters, and until miners start wasting their own money to back up these claims, the claims might as well be plaintext on a webpage for all Bitcoin cares [14:07]
mats 1/10 breach [14:07]
ascii_butugychag folks who want to convert their btc into a usg-alt that mircea_popescu will sell 1,000,000 of for a penny each the day of the phork, can go ahead any time... [14:08]
ascii_butugychag (see the 'missile' essay) [14:09]
psztorc BingoBoingo: you see, that's the thing when it comes to death threats, though. [14:09]
adlai psztorc: out of curiosity, did anything ever come of plans to build a market for exchanging such coins? rather than manually arbitraging between businesses on either side [14:10]
ascii_butugychag adlai: there is no shortage of places to trade crackpot alts [14:11]
ascii_butugychag what's one more. [14:11]
psztorc The plan was to rush out a tiny version of Truthcoin/Hivemind , now I'm just going to wait for the full thing to be done. [14:11]
psztorc This one let you exchange the coins, *before* the fork actually split them into two Altcoins. [14:11]
ascii_butugychag wut?!! [14:12]
adlai ascii_butugychag: you can run bitcoind and forkcoind, and automate between them... if only anybody wrote the glue for this. for some reason I thought psztorc was working on this, but can't find the github repo [14:12]
assbot bips/bip-atom.mediawiki at bip4x · TierNolan/bips · GitHub ... ( ) [14:12]
ascii_butugychag psztorc: before the split, the alt does not exist in any sense [14:12]
adlai mircea_popescu doesn't own woodcoin, either. [14:13]
adlai but funkenstein_ is holding some for him, if that altchain even exists outside of his computer [14:13]
psztorc They were essentially synthetic futures on each coin, denominated in fiat. [14:13]
psztorc You can read about it if you like: [14:13]
assbot The Win-Win Blocksize Solution | Truthcoin: Making Cheap Talk Expensive ... ( ) [14:13]
adlai psztorc: the problem with basing this rather-necessary tool on TC/HM is that the latter doesn't exist yet... [14:14]
psztorc I know, that's why I proposed rushing out a very very simple version which outright relied on multisig for the 2-way-peg and the price-oracle input. [14:14]
adlai bitcoind, forkcoind, and various young/crippled bip4x implementations - do [14:14]
psztorc I asked for help / support / feedback ... got zero. [14:15]
adlai eg - if you can stomach the java [14:15]
assbot mappum/mercury · GitHub ... ( ) [14:15]
ascii_butugychag psztorc: you can market shares in own farts, if you feel like it [14:15]
ascii_butugychag good luck finding buyers. [14:15]
psztorc So I just shelved it...unlike TC/HM, the watered-down version required some community buy-in, so I knew it was DoA. [14:16]
BingoBoingo psztorc: You have to understand A-flat minor is best key, and this drama is all about Gavin's diminishing ability to see his penis [14:16]
psztorc ascii_butugychag: What exactly are you talking about? [14:16]
ascii_butugychag the arbitrage thing [14:16]
* raedah ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [14:17]
psztorc What about it? [14:17]
ascii_butugychag !s protocol promise [14:18]
assbot 15 results for 'protocol promise' : [14:18]
mats [14:18]
adlai there's no a-priori reason why fork proponents can't stake their reputation on pgp-signed contracts to buy up their alt after it's launch... reminscent of the $20 XPY floor [14:18]
assbot Wassenaar: Cybersecurity and Export Control - United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform ... ( ) [14:18]
* tripleslash_d has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) [14:18]
ascii_butugychag adlai: ask mircea_popescu to write one up for you, if you need this [14:19]
adlai psztorc: have you considered asking fork proponents to help build such a market? i think the antifork crowd are more content to take a more patient role in this game of chicken, because the "burden of forking" is on the other camp [14:19]
* adlai only trades altcoins in the middle clef [14:20]
psztorc adlai: Well, who would I ask? [14:20]
ascii_butugychag mats: didja get in line for jail yet ? [14:20]
ascii_butugychag mats: i hear they give priority to applicants who give a shit [14:21]
psztorc Instead, I'm just going to finish my own project. [14:21]
psztorc As slowly as it takes. [14:21]
mats i wonder sometimes what prison would be like [14:22]
adlai psztorc: at the top of my push-down stack of Bitcoin forkists are all the names listed on [14:22]
assbot Bitcoin Classic ... ( ) [14:22]
psztorc Well, that's the news, so to speak. [14:23]
mats i think i would enjoy it, at least a little bit [14:23]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9256 @ 0.0005016 = 4.6428 BTC [-] [14:23]
psztorc I will be lurking about, wrt 2 MB blocksize fork. [14:23]
psztorc See ya later. [14:23]
* psztorc (ac381764@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has left #bitcoin-assets [14:23]
thestringpuller the forkers think it's all fun and games until an ecological disaster occurs. then who is expected to clean it up? [14:25]
deedbot- [Qntra] Another One Bites The Dust: Cryptsy Edition - [14:25]
ascii_butugychag thestringpuller: the vultures will clean up. [14:25]
thestringpuller so we have to live in vaults because some fucker wants to launch a nuke cause "hey this will fix the world!111" [14:26]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_butugychag [14:27]
mircea_popescu << not a bad beginning. [14:27]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 16:37:02; ascii_butugychag: (he has the virtue of not building towers of own shit, like farm swine, but that's the beginning and end of it) [14:27]
thestringpuller !up ascii_butugychag [14:28]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [14:28]
mircea_popescu << word. [14:28]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 16:48:30; adlai: clef notation is worse than useless, because it sparks endless bikeshedding about whether E sharp "ever is or could be equal to" F [14:28]
mircea_popescu musical notation is a joke to pretty much every serrious musician. it is a "pons asinorum" of sorts and not much else [14:28]
mircea_popescu you have to "interpret" and "read it with feeling" and" this isn't what liszt meant" and bla bla. [14:28]
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mircea_popescu it's only there like the clothes are there on woman : to make conversation. [14:28]
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* adlai envisions an aging mircea_popescu, tired of 'systems analysis', finding his final calling with the shakuhachi. (it's also quite good for spanking) [14:29]
mircea_popescu i actually broke a bone flute on a flesh ass. [14:30]
mircea_popescu << quite common actually, yes. chiefly because jazz is a lot more into the whole color and interpretation thing. [14:31]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 16:57:00; thestringpuller: from my studies, I thought that jazz musicians routinely passed down songs via audition rather than sight (via score). [14:31]
mircea_popescu |<< this isn't going to be like the "miners vote to uncontroversial softfork, oops forgot to actually implement it" debacle is it ? [14:32]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 16:57:11; psztorc: So, "bitcoin classic", with a 2 MB blocksize limit, is likely to have >60% hashrate at this time tomorrow. [14:32]
BingoBoingo Anyways, look which degenerate gambler is ready to lose other people's money again [14:32]
assbot KLYEMAX.COM – Crypto Webcam Exchange - Open Beta : Bitcoin ... ( ) [14:32]
mircea_popescu ahahaha (p) that rocks [14:34]
mircea_popescu << you must have forgotten january 2015 when "consensus" and "nobody really opposes this" and bla bla. [14:34]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 17:05:10; psztorc: I bring it up because it is in contrast to XT, which no one really liked. [14:34]
BingoBoingo Lots of noiseholes loved XT at first [14:35]
mircea_popescu << davout was working on it. [14:35]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 17:08:33; adlai: psztorc: out of curiosity, did anything ever come of plans to build a market for exchanging such coins? rather than manually arbitraging between businesses on either side [14:35]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo there's no end of these "bitcoin experts" who have weekly opinions and who are to be taken seriously provided you don't examine anything past last week. [14:36]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: I need to know for the jokes!!! [14:36]
mircea_popescu << if you imagine interviews is what protects dangerous idiots from decapitation you're off a different planet already. [14:36]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 17:07:24; psztorc: BingoBoingo: you see, that's the thing when it comes to death threats, though. [14:36]
* BingoBoingo sharpens soldering iron [14:37]
mircea_popescu << supposedly there is a chain. i never personally checked. [14:37]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 17:11:33; adlai: but funkenstein_ is holding some for him, if that altchain even exists outside of his computer [14:37]
mircea_popescu << start by getting in the wot. [14:38]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 17:13:25; psztorc: I asked for help / support / feedback ... got zero. [14:38]
mircea_popescu << well, none other than the obvious reason, at any rate. [14:39]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 17:16:36; adlai: there's no a-priori reason why fork proponents can't stake their reputation on pgp-signed contracts to buy up their alt after it's launch... reminscent of the $20 XPY floor [14:39]
mircea_popescu idea men everywhere. [14:39]
mircea_popescu lol bitcoinclassic. [14:40]
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mircea_popescu derps so fucking desperately need moar brandings and things. plox to make a website. with the cssen [14:40]
mircea_popescu << o look at that, the new-xt bs no longer has hearn ? [14:41]
assbot Bitcoin Classic ... ( ) [14:41]
mircea_popescu awww. [14:41]
BingoBoingo Hearnia is bad for optics [14:42]
mircea_popescu anyway. this bullshit won't be either mined or relayed by trb. [14:42]
mircea_popescu they're more than free to make their own altcoin, like everyhone else throughout the years. glhf and all that. [14:42]
mircea_popescu i have no fucking idea what they imagine this will do. suppose 90% of the miners move over. i will not honor any of their payments, not on mpex, not on bitbet, not anywhere else. that's the whole market. [14:43]
* shinohai needs to review last night's logs for more info on trb mining pool possibility [14:43]
mircea_popescu meanwhile i will continue to honor payments on the actual bitcoin chain. [14:43]
mircea_popescu so basically the renegade miners that got scammed into mining a fork got all the mining competition and none of the benefits. [14:43]
mircea_popescu meanwhile the loyal miners get 10x easier coins. [14:43]
mircea_popescu i don't see who minds this ? go right ahead! [14:43]
ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu: speaking of crackpot ideas, re: your pool: how about ~preferring~ high-S ? [14:43]
mircea_popescu eh, i dunno if you recall the discussion at the time, but anyway. i am not really THAT against that soft fork, because like it or not this situation with ambiguous s-ness is not so good. [14:44]
mircea_popescu certainly not against it enough to precipitate a chainwar [14:44]
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ascii_butugychag but would conveniently drive an additional nail into the enemy's skull [14:45]
* assbot gives voice to hanbot [14:45]
mircea_popescu yes but i'm not a bloodthirsty orc. not just yet at any rate. [14:45]
ascii_butugychag i mean, the present situation is icky [14:46]
ascii_butugychag when i issue a tx, 50% chance it never gets in a block [14:46]
mircea_popescu anyway, if the toomims take thgeir fake hashpower to this thing it'll be a perfect exit for that set of scammers and good riddance. [14:46]
ascii_butugychag or what, some time next year ? [14:46]
mircea_popescu yeah, but it costs ~nothing to make it be low-S [14:46]
mircea_popescu iirc mod6 was considering a trb patch [14:46]
ascii_butugychag it costs patching [14:46]
ascii_butugychag and surrendering on the declaration [14:47]
mircea_popescu hm ? [14:47]
ascii_butugychag bowing to the enemy [14:47]
ascii_butugychag 'softfork'ism [14:47]
mircea_popescu eh, bowing to reality. [14:47]
mircea_popescu not every inconvenience is good enough to call out the troops. [14:47]
mircea_popescu troops also got their own land to plow. [14:47]
BingoBoingo anyway, if the toomims take thgeir fake hashpower to this thing it'll be a perfect exit for that set of scammers and good riddance. << I alway thought the Toomims hashpower was real? Who claiming fake hashpower would claim so little? [14:47]
ascii_butugychag why not preferentially mine the high-S ? [14:48]
ascii_butugychag betcha the pool would instantly fill with trb folk [14:48]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo the fake is in the "their". [14:48]
mircea_popescu but anyway. [14:48]
BingoBoingo Aha [14:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15004 @ 0.00049818 = 7.4747 BTC [-] {4} [14:48]
mircea_popescu ascii_butugychag if we do force a longer chain which breaks that softfork we HAVE to also steal all their money. [14:48]
ascii_butugychag how would that work? [14:49]
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mircea_popescu that we'll doublespend all the txn that they see as conformant, and then impose the longer chain with the doublespends. [14:49]
ascii_butugychag double-spend? [14:49]
ascii_butugychag ah [14:49]
mircea_popescu it kills a lot of people. [14:49]
ascii_butugychag do they need to live ? [14:50]
mircea_popescu yes, well, let's pace ourselves. [14:50]
adlai for purposes of log completeness, since this took way too long to dig up: Olin Shivers's preamble on hundred percent vs eighty percent solutions: [14:50]
assbot ... ( ) [14:50]
adlai (might even be worth a deeding?) [14:50]
mircea_popescu by olin himself. [14:50]
ascii_butugychag adlai: mega-classic [14:51]
* adlai waits for the man to show up [14:51]
adlai ascii_butugychag: agreed, but for such a mega-classic, it's unbearably un-googleable. anything about "80/100% solutions" (spelled however you like) turns up corporations priding themselves in the quick, dirty, and incomplete. [14:52]
* adlai found it by sifting r^Nrs authors for the familiar name, then sifting his bibliography [14:52]
ascii_butugychag ;;google olin shivers sre [14:52]
gribble The SRE regular-expression notation: ; Technical Bibliography - College of Computer and Information Science: ; Olin Shivers - College of Computer and Information Science: [14:52]
ascii_butugychag ^ works!111 [14:52]
adlai provided you know which manual has this preamble, sure. [14:53]
* adlai doesn't actually care much for regex [14:53]
BingoBoingo adlai: What about the stripper ReggieX [14:54]
adlai you may need to recalibrate your tokenizer's fuzzyness [14:55]
mircea_popescu "Unfortunately, his quickly-built socket interface isn't general. It just [14:55]
mircea_popescu covers the bits this particular hacker needed for his applications. So the [14:55]
mircea_popescu next guy that comes along and needs a socket interface can't use this one. [14:55]
mircea_popescu Not only does it lack coverage, but the deep structure wasn't thought out well [14:55]
mircea_popescu enough to allow for quality extension. So *he* does his *own* 80% [14:55]
mircea_popescu implementation. Five hackers later, five different, incompatible, ungeneral [14:55]
mircea_popescu implementations had been built. No one can use each others code." [14:55]
mircea_popescu no you don't udnerstand because the specification is the code. [14:55]
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mircea_popescu !up punindented [14:55]
-assbot- You voiced punindented for 30 minutes. [14:55]
* assbot gives voice to punindented [14:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19300 @ 0.0005016 = 9.6809 BTC [+] [14:55]
ascii_butugychag !s bipolar lisp [14:56]
assbot 0 results for 'bipolar lisp' : [14:56]
* punindented has quit (Quit: leaving) [14:56]
ascii_butugychag [14:56]
assbot The Bipolar Lisp Programmer ... ( ) [14:56]
ascii_butugychag ^ as described here. [14:56]
ascii_butugychag (psychopathology of foss, etc) [14:56]
mircea_popescu anyway, the point oshivers' not aware of is that THE ONLY way to have 100% solutions is with the power of the wot as deployed by b-a [14:57]
mircea_popescu with sole persons responsible, and with al lthat. [14:57]
adlai fwiw my latest go-to answer to "but why did you use lisp?" is that it lets me optimize for programmer lazyness. (this predates by ~10 months) [14:58]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2016 00:40:01; mircea_popescu: i think i'ma just use adlai to denote lazy from now on. [14:58]
mircea_popescu they try to hack it togetgher with bs like the internet taskforce "we believe in rough consensus and working code", but it's structurally nonsense. the only reason it sort-of appeared to work was because it was unwittingly implementing some wot/ba features. [14:58]
mircea_popescu such as a backflow of "your shit is broken/down/fuck you" [14:58]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_butugychag [14:58]
adlai !up ascii_butugychag [14:58]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [14:58]
adlai what features did wot/ba have before its parents were born? [14:59]
mircea_popescu im not sure i understand the question [14:59]
adlai (it's a zen joke! ) [14:59]
assbot amasamy_teishos ... ( ) [14:59]
adlai meh, is a better tl;dr i guess. [15:00]
assbot Original face - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( ) [15:00]
mircea_popescu "The right thing to do was to carefully implement one, common base mode for process interaction, and to carefully put in hooks for customising this base mode into language-specific modes" << and in today's installement of intelligence is no defense from stupidity news, "if you tried wrestling with a wild pig in some mud you found in the forrest and got raped, the correct thing is to buy some earth from the supermarket, [15:03]
mircea_popescu water it carefully from your own sink and grow your own pig". [15:03]
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ascii_butugychag hey my pig is growing by the hour!111 [15:04]
ascii_butugychag snout already protrudes from the pot [15:04]
mircea_popescu clearly yhou are set for greatness [15:04]
ascii_butugychag !b 8 [15:05]
assbot Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [15:05]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10950 @ 0.00050089 = 5.4847 BTC [-] [15:13]
mircea_popescu "Any lecturer who serves his time will probably graduate hundreds, if not thousands of students. Mostly they merge into a blur; like those paintings of crowd scenes where the leading faces are clearly picked out and the rest just have iconic representations. This anonymity can be embarrassing when some past student hails you by name and you really haven't got the foggiest idea of who he or she is. It's both nice to [15:18]
mircea_popescu be remembered and also toe curlingly embarrassing to admit that you cannot recognise who you are talking to." [15:18]
mircea_popescu i'm sorry... what ? [15:18]
mircea_popescu da fuck is embarassing about this ? i say "i'm sorry, who are you again ?" a dozen times a day, if it's a day i mostly sleep. [15:18]
mircea_popescu << nice writing, and in more than one way. ascii_butugychag dja happen to recognize the very plain, alphabetic notation employed ? :D [15:23]
assbot The Bipolar Lisp Programmer ... ( ) [15:23]
ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu: not a maths piece [15:24]
ascii_butugychag and this is tarver [15:24]
ascii_butugychag !s tarver [15:24]
assbot 8 results for 'tarver' : [15:24]
mircea_popescu nevertheless :D [15:24]
ascii_butugychag iirc we had a few tarver threadz [15:24]
ascii_butugychag l0l [15:24]
mircea_popescu hehehe [15:24]
mircea_popescu (fwiw, /me doesn't even recognise such distinction can be had) [15:24]
mircea_popescu can not read this man and not love him. [15:28]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_butugychag [15:29]
mircea_popescu "Now one of the things about Lisp, and I've seen it before, is that Lisp is a real magnet for this kind of mind. " check it out, he ... carefully put in the hook for language specific [15:31]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2016 17:58:22; mircea_popescu: it is also fundamentally why math "is hard". for every non-retarded young adult who believes math is hard you have a case of a child who developed his own, highly personal set of shitty symbols, and then never received a good explanation as to what the difference between his and "everyone else"'s is, so got lost. [15:31]
* BingoBoingo is just giving words away to qntra shareholders right now. Fucking footnoting inside a blockquote. [15:34]
adlai !up ascii_butugychag [15:35]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [15:35]
adlai BingoBoingo: you qntring "btc classic"? [15:35]
BingoBoingo Decline to comment at this time [15:36]
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* adlai off to rosenfeld chess'n'bullshit emporium, leaves scoopworms to earlier birds [15:37]
mircea_popescu and in the endless lulz, [15:39]
assbot ... ( ) [15:39]
mircea_popescu "hey, maybe i'm not really fat!!1" [15:40]
BingoBoingo NO gavin, you still can't see your penis without a mirror! [15:41]
kakobrekla ;;later tell asciilifeform [15:43]
gribble The operation succeeded. [15:43]
assbot ... ( ) [15:43]
* ascii_butugychag has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [15:43]
mircea_popescu "Bitonic has sold over 200 000 bitcoins and is celebrating by giving away one bitcoin! PART 4" [15:44]
mircea_popescu ahahaha. [15:44]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17800 @ 0.0005016 = 8.9285 BTC [+] [15:47]
mircea_popescu "The largest criticisms of Symbolics in the article are that Symbolics believed AI would take off and that Symbolics mistakenly pushed its view that proprietary hardware was the way to go for AI." [15:50]
mircea_popescu bwahaha. symbolics - wanted to be ms, got raped. [15:50]
mircea_popescu there's no engineering brilliance that may excuse that, is there. [15:50]
mircea_popescu "And outside the US there were major Lisp efforts, including Cambridge Lisp and Le-Lisp. The humble US grassroots effort did not seek membership from outside the US, and one can safely regard that as a mistake. Frankly, it never occurred to the Common Lisp group that this purely American effort would be of interest outside the US, because very few of the group saw a future in AI that would extend the needs for a standa [15:54]
mircea_popescu rd Lisp beyond North America." [15:54]
mircea_popescu mwahaha [15:54]
shinohai <<< grasping at straws now or appeal to authority ? [15:57]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 18:37:55; mircea_popescu: and in the endless lulz, [15:57]
mircea_popescu i dunno, by now they're self-parodic. [15:58]
mircea_popescu << "most expensive ever saw". because actual bitcoin conferences in timisoara, b-a etc never happened. [15:58]
mircea_popescu le derp. [15:58]
assbot Rich bankers paying expensive tickets for Blockchain London Con : Bitcoin ... ( ) [15:58]
shinohai Maybe Gavin can get them seat on the jet. [15:59]
mircea_popescu << in other news, what scant remains is left of #power-rangers are moving into a "actual improvements" phase. [16:02]
assbot BitcoinStats ... ( ) [16:02]
mircea_popescu bluematt left, apparently. which brings the bipedal count to ~0 [16:03]
mircea_popescu i'd have much preferred it if that quote read "had we done what mp said we shoudl do the first time he called us idiots back in 2013, we'd now be in a position where we could almost pass for human" [16:04]
mircea_popescu but hey, bovines bloviate, what's to be expected. [16:04]
mircea_popescu aaanyway. [16:05]
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BingoBoingo !up ascii_butugychag [16:10]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [16:10]
ascii_butugychag << mno. for one thing, microshit was not yet itself [16:10]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 18:48:43; mircea_popescu: bwahaha. symbolics - wanted to be ms, got raped. [16:10]
ascii_butugychag it wanted to be.... varian. [16:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00050161 = 7.8 BTC [+] {2} [16:10]
mircea_popescu whether the rat existed yet or not, they still aspired to be a rat. [16:11]
BingoBoingo ;;google Ahmed Bodiwala [16:11]
gribble Ahmed Bodiwala (@CryptoExpert) | Twitter: ; ahmedbodi · GitHub: ; The Arscoin rollout, through the eyes of the server administrators ...: [16:11]
* mircea_popescu is quite glad it blew up, actually. [16:11]
mircea_popescu last fucking thing the world of today needed would be some unfucked & unfuckable, nose-in-the-sky self sufficient engineer derps with delusions of success. [16:11]
mircea_popescu "oh we know shit" etc. [16:12]
mircea_popescu at least the usg, from the president to the last goon, knows they're sitting on a prayer [16:12]
mircea_popescu and that they're wrong, and unloved. [16:12]
mircea_popescu but most importantly - wrong. [16:12]
ascii_butugychag thing is, these were not pc [16:18]
ascii_butugychag they were heavy industrial equipment. [16:18]
ascii_butugychag hence - varian. [16:18]
ascii_butugychag (example) [16:18]
ascii_butugychag caterpillar. [16:18]
ascii_butugychag if you like. [16:18]
mircea_popescu only reason those are excused is because ancient tradition. otherwise, caterpillar as loathsome as john deere as loathsome as monsanto as loathsome as mpaa [16:19]
ascii_butugychag whereas imagine, caterpillar is dead, and now we have only shovels. [16:19]
mircea_popescu no, we have city-run stell mill like the city power network, [16:19]
mircea_popescu and a flurry of various machien making machines. [16:20]
mircea_popescu fuck caterpillar. and boeing. and the whole fucking rest of them. [16:20]
ascii_butugychag if mircea_popescu imagines that his gateway to the bowels of hell will be dug by six dudes with shovels, he is smoking something strong. [16:20]
mircea_popescu grey goop! [16:20]
mircea_popescu "C is therefore a language for which it is easy to write a decent compiler" [16:20]
mircea_popescu ahaha I~~~ am the one smoking something strong ? [16:21]
mircea_popescu what about gabriel! [16:21]
mircea_popescu fucking c compiler's not yet been written. [16:21]
ascii_butugychag fuck boeing << what does mircea_popescu fly on ? a Junkers ? [16:21]
mircea_popescu fuck boeing nevertheless. i do not wish to even hear of bullshit "airport" to have "tsa" at. [16:21]
mircea_popescu private jets all the way. private helicopters, cessnas, fuck it. [16:21]
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mircea_popescu i want to have more landing locations than existing aircraft. [16:22]
mircea_popescu houses don't need a fucking pool [16:22]
mircea_popescu they need a runway. [16:22]
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mircea_popescu bitch can cool herself in the basement. [16:22]
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ascii_butugychag the megastate didn't end up with air superiority because of the gods' whim, though [16:23]
ascii_butugychag it follows from orwell's theorem [16:23]
mircea_popescu fuck orwell too. [16:24]
ascii_butugychag 'sovereignty is the ability to manufacture airplane in large numbers' [16:24]
mircea_popescu forget this. no more centralized manufacturing of anything. [16:24]
ascii_butugychag yes, but ~with what~ do you intend to fuck him [16:24]
mircea_popescu myeah. [16:24]
ascii_butugychag shoot down usg fighters with pure mind rays ? [16:24]
ascii_butugychag at least tesla had an idea of what this has to be [16:24]
mircea_popescu nope, shoot them down with the same rays usa shot down soviet strategic bombers [16:25]
mircea_popescu bankruptcy ray. [16:25]
mircea_popescu a little bit of internal unrest ray too. [16:25]
mircea_popescu best ray to date, as far as the military records go. [16:25]
punkman "a flurry of various machine making machines." "houses don't need a fucking pool, they need a runway." << I love futuristic-mp [16:25]
mircea_popescu as someone once said, "their tricks work for them only a short distance of their run, and for us the whole run." [16:26]
ascii_butugychag must be great being an immortal demigod [16:26]
mircea_popescu i got promoted ? [16:26]
ascii_butugychag never need to kill anybody, just wait for'em to die [16:26]
mircea_popescu just as long as i get my death certificates. [16:26]
* BingoBoingo awaits mircea_popescu paying out bounties to Unilever for the death of his enemies. [16:30]
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mircea_popescu all the talk neglects to notice how teh usg is force to try and replace cars - autonomous for 1500 miles - with rubber band machines, autonomous for maybe 50. at GREAT expense. [16:31]
mircea_popescu why do they need that, one would wonder ? [16:31]
mircea_popescu fuck that. airplanes, 3k miles, etc. [16:31]
mircea_popescu "sovereignity is the ability to convince lazy idiots that symbols have meaning". [16:32]
mircea_popescu avast. [16:32]
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deedbot- [Qntra] Gavin and Toomim Present: "Classic" Another Hard Fork Risk - [16:35]
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BingoBoingo !up punindented [16:36]
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* gives voice to punindented [16:41]
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mircea_popescu let's consider the following bit of clisp guts : [16:41]
mircea_popescu 2.2.1 Bad Declarations [16:41]
mircea_popescu This example is a mistake that is easy to make. The programmer here did not declare his arrays as fully as he could have. Therefore, each array access was about as slow as a function call when it should have been a few instructions. The original declaration was as follows: [16:41]
mircea_popescu (proclaim '(type (array fixnum *) *ar1* *ar2* *ar3*)) [16:41]
mircea_popescu The three arrays happen to be of fixed size, which is reflected in the following correct declaration: [16:41]
mircea_popescu (proclaim '(type (simple-array fixnum (4)) *ar1*)) [16:41]
mircea_popescu (proclaim '(type (simple-array fixnum (4 4)) *ar2*)) [16:41]
mircea_popescu (proclaim '(type (simple-array fixnum (4 4 4)) *ar3*)) [16:41]
mircea_popescu are you seriously going to tell me that the compiler fails to identify this optimization ?! [16:42]
mircea_popescu "Altering the faulty declaration improved the performance of the entire system by 20%." << umm... go hang ? [16:42]
BingoBoingo !up PeterL [16:42]
* assbot gives voice to PeterL [16:42]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00050179 = 6.2724 BTC [+] [16:43]
BingoBoingo ;;later tell psztorc thank you for enriching my morning lulz [16:43]
gribble The operation succeeded. [16:44]
mircea_popescu "There is no reason that a programmer should know that this rewrite is needed. On the other hand, finding that performance was not as expected should not have led the manager of the programmer in question to conclude, as he did, that Lisp was the wrong language." ahaha what ?! [16:44]
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* mircea_popescu aborts this with an unspecified error code. [16:44]
PeterL houses don't need a fucking pool [16:44]
PeterL * they need a runway. << Why not both? [16:44]
mircea_popescu just making a rhetorical point [16:44]
mircea_popescu they can have a kennel for all i care. [16:45]
PeterL << and now everybody can switch to helicopter instead of car [16:45]
assbot Meet Afalina: Russian manufacturer reveals the world’s cheapest helicopter (VIDEO) — RT News ... ( ) [16:45]
mircea_popescu i briefly considered a two seater thing a few years back [16:46]
mircea_popescu it was actuallyt about ~same as a car. [16:46]
punkman can't fit many girls in two seater [16:46]
mircea_popescu myeah. [16:47]
mircea_popescu also flying a 1/4 ton thing is a little iffy. [16:47]
mircea_popescu kinda like sailing in a nut shell [16:47]
mircea_popescu (flying a fixed wing is similar, except the arrangement has signigicant - if not gravitational - inertia. a tiny heli does not.) [16:48]
mircea_popescu or how do you call those things... deltaplan ? [16:49]
mircea_popescu hang glider ? [16:49]
punkman I kinda liked this one, also lands on water [16:50]
assbot Logged on 06-01-2016 14:03:09; punkman: neat [16:50]
mircea_popescu !up ascii_butugychag [16:51]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_butugychag for 30 minutes. [16:51]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [16:51]
ascii_butugychag << the sole purpose of 'proclaim' is to hand-optimize where the compiler cannot SAFELY do it [16:52]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 19:40:10; mircea_popescu: are you seriously going to tell me that the compiler fails to identify this optimization ?! [16:52]
ascii_butugychag [16:52]
assbot CLHS: Function PROCLAIM ... ( ) [16:52]
ascii_butugychag cl is not, e.g., haskell, does not attempt mechanical type inference [16:53]
ascii_butugychag deltaplan, not boeing. [16:53]
ascii_butugychag << same pathetic range as car, too [16:55]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 19:44:32; mircea_popescu: it was actuallyt about ~same as a car. [16:55]
PeterL back to the topic of alphabet, alchemists/early chemists came up with wacky symbols for all the elements, thankfully somebody got smart and switched to alphabetic symbols instead. [16:55]
ascii_butugychag what's the point ? rooftop escapes ? [16:55]
mircea_popescu ascii_butugychag ah ok [16:55]
mircea_popescu PeterL you don't say. [16:55]
PeterL helicopter can go faster than car, more direct route [16:56]
ascii_butugychag if yours is the only one in town - sure [16:56]
mircea_popescu up until you run into some headwind. [16:57]
ascii_butugychag or traffic. [16:57]
mircea_popescu traffic isn't so big a problem - easeir to make autoflown heli than car. [16:57]
ascii_butugychag mno. ground effect. [16:57]
ascii_butugychag ever fly a toy heli ? [16:58]
PeterL what traffic, aren't we killing off 90% of population? [16:58]
ascii_butugychag PeterL: yeah but the remaining folk all have dirigibles [16:58]
mircea_popescu ascii_butugychag let's see... anywehre you go, there's a ~1k lane highway available. and it's on ~ 50 or 100 levels. so 50k lanes at a minimum. what fucking traffic. [16:59]
mircea_popescu not to mention heli brakes easier than any car. [17:00]
PeterL heli breaks easier than car? [17:01]
mircea_popescu well of course. you can just plug the power backwards, who's to know. [17:02]
ascii_butugychag wut [17:02]
mircea_popescu if you're doing 10kN forward, you can within 2-3 seconds do 10kN backward. [17:02]
mircea_popescu no braking system approaches this. [17:02]
ascii_butugychag discussing braking in a machine that can go into, e.g., spins, is lulzy [17:03]
ascii_butugychag only on the ground do you get stability (mostly) for free [17:03]
BingoBoingo In other news, this may be the fastest a qntra has gotten social media noise << 20 minutes [17:03]
mircea_popescu you get stability in the sense that you agree to be a carrot moving at speed on a vegetable grater. [17:04]
mircea_popescu it's almost like "being a usg subject gives you stability for free" [17:04]
mircea_popescu yeah... i... have seen. [17:04]
PeterL less likely to hit a deer if travelling by helicopter [17:04]
ascii_butugychag eagle in the air intake ? [17:05]
BingoBoingo !b 2 [17:05]
mircea_popescu well not for a heli [17:05]
assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [17:05]
mircea_popescu but yes, small jets mostly get killed by ducks. [17:05]
ascii_butugychag incidentally, many of the small helis on the market today are turbojet [17:06]
mircea_popescu yeah, but these tiny things here discussed seemed more like chainsaw than turbojet. [17:06]
ascii_butugychag (e.g., some of the police choppers where i live. i was shown one up close at a public expo, tiny thing) [17:06]
ascii_butugychag speaking of chainsaw [17:06]
ascii_butugychag i've something that beats mircea_popescu's huqsvarna motorcycle [17:06]
ascii_butugychag the new train cars in this town are... [17:06]
ascii_butugychag kawasaki. [17:07]
mircea_popescu ahahaha [17:07]
BingoBoingo wow [17:07]
mircea_popescu actually... the motorbike dudes moved into heavy industry in the 90s [17:07]
ascii_butugychag < them [17:08]
assbot A peek inside Metro’s new rail car - The Washington Post ... ( ) [17:08]
ascii_butugychag complete with barfproof floor [17:08]
mircea_popescu how's barfproof floor work ? [17:08]
ascii_butugychag linoleum [17:09]
ascii_butugychag (old cars had carpet) [17:09]
mircea_popescu "we don't let any poor people in" [17:09]
mircea_popescu oh. [17:09]
ascii_butugychag l0l if only [17:09]
mircea_popescu your life's ever closer to the dungeon, eh alf. [17:09]
ascii_butugychag 'Привет тебе, судьбы моей рычаг...' [17:10]
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ascii_butugychag << lulzily linked from the fishwrap [17:11]
assbot 7 kinds of government subsidies those angry ranchers get that you don’t | Grist ... ( ) [17:11]
BingoBoingo In other updates [17:11]
assbot Yik Yak Use Leads To Arrest | Qntra ... ( ) [17:12]
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* assbot removes voice from PeterL [17:13]
BingoBoingo !up PeterL [17:13]
* assbot gives voice to PeterL [17:13]
ascii_butugychag moar, [17:14]
assbot The new way police are surveilling you: Calculating your threat ‘score’ - The Washington Post ... ( ) [17:14]
ascii_butugychag 'As officers respond to calls, Beware automatically runs the address. The searches return the names of residents and scans them against a range of publicly available data to generate a color-coded threat level for each person or address: green, yellow or red.' [17:15]
ascii_butugychag 'Exactly how Beware calculates threat scores is something that its maker, Intrado, considers a trade secret, so it is unclear how much weight is given to a misdemeanor, felony or threatening comment on Facebook. ' [17:15]
ascii_butugychag l0ltr0n1c [17:15]
ascii_butugychag 'The Fresno City Council called a hearing on Beware in November after constituents raised concerns. Once council member referred to a local media report saying that a woman’s threat level was elevated because she was tweeting about a card game titled “Rage,” which could be a keyword in Beware’s assessment of social media.' [17:16]
ascii_butugychag who remembers the film 'brazil' ? [17:16]
ascii_butugychag 'Councilman Clinton J. Olivier... ...asked Dyer a simple question: “Could you run my threat level now?” Dyer agreed. The scan returned Olivier as a green, but his home came back as a yellow, possibly because of someone who previously lived at his address, a police official said.' [17:18]
kakobrekla [17:18]
assbot Full Disclosure: SSH Backdoor for FortiGate OS Version 4.x up to 5.0.7 ... ( ) [17:18]
ascii_butugychag Run Moar Closed Turdware !11111 [17:19]
kakobrekla also [17:20]
assbot Saudi Arabia's Aramco considering share sale - BBC News ... ( ) [17:20]
ascii_butugychag << lulzy shitgnomade re: the fortinet thing [17:21]
assbot SSH Backdoor found in Fortinet firewalls | Hacker News ... ( ) [17:21]
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BingoBoingo !up ascii_butugychag [17:25]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychag [17:25]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27550 @ 0.000504 = 13.8852 BTC [+] {5} [17:29]
deedbot- [Qntra] Europol Claims DD4BC Action - [17:34]
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mircea_popescu o hey, aramco shares huh ? [17:36]
mircea_popescu gives the chinese something to buy [17:37]
* assbot removes voice from PeterL [17:43]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12600 @ 0.00050063 = 6.3079 BTC [-] {3} [17:49]
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trinque mircea_popescu │ << i can't discern which side you're taking. << the side with mostly (if not *entirely*) plain english, and even better, represented as an explicit tree with s-expressions. that one can parse the hieroglyphs when he's habituated to them... fine, but I thought we were after "fits in head" here. how much skull-space does that [17:59]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 05:28:22; trinque: why create syntactic barriers to understanding when you can just kill the folks you don't want in your math club, anyway [17:59]
trinque parsing take? [17:59]
mircea_popescu myeah [18:00]
trinque the comment about syntactic barriers was this, that if the hieroglyphs keep dummies from mauling the field (even as a happy accident), there are much better ways to push them out [18:00]
mircea_popescu quite. [18:00]
trinque mircea_popescu: your comment about symbolics murdering the competition and saying "here is the spec" for example. [18:00]
mircea_popescu chief among those ways, teach them how to thing properly and watch them lose interest and move on [18:00]
mircea_popescu self-selection [18:00]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6152 @ 0.00050002 = 3.0761 BTC [-] {2} [18:25]
mircea_popescu !up user1675_ [18:25]
-assbot- You voiced user1675_ for 30 minutes. [18:25]
* assbot gives voice to user1675_ [18:25]
user1675_ hello [18:29]
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user1675_ i would like to take a fraction of my time to talk about [18:29]
user1675_ how shit your registration system is [18:29]
user1675_ there is no manual or instructions [18:29]
user1675_ i bet you hired an indian on craigslist to build it for you [18:29]
BingoBoingo !help [18:30]
assbot [18:30]
BingoBoingo ^ instructions [18:30]
user1675_ it sucks harder than my grandmas rotten socks [18:30]
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mircea_popescu who're you again ? [18:34]
BingoBoingo Wasn't it clear? he's ~user1675@ [18:35]
mircea_popescu aok [18:36]
shinohai lol wut? [18:37]
BingoBoingo So, apparently qntra is hours ahead of ther derp press on "ClassicCoin" fork. Who wants to put odds on Qntra being days ahead of ragazine et al? [18:38]
mircea_popescu lol [18:43]
BingoBoingo ;;later tell psztorc Seriously, thank you for that tip. [18:46]
gribble The operation succeeded. [18:46]
* PeterL is now known as PeterL_urk [18:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16476 @ 0.00050278 = 8.2838 BTC [+] [18:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21313 @ 0.000499 = 10.6352 BTC [-] {6} [18:52]
BingoBoingo [18:58]
assbot Gavin and Toomim Present: "Classic" – Another Hard Fork Risk | Qntra ... ( ) [18:58]
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BingoBoingo !up CowManure [19:05]
* assbot gives voice to CowManure [19:05]
CowManure [19:06]
assbot BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase before July 2016 :: 0.94 B (31%) on Yes, 2.09 B (69%) on No | closing in 4 months 2 weeks | weight: 65`028 (100`000 to 2`000) ... ( ) [19:06]
CowManure What is considered 'bitcoin main'? [19:06]
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shinohai <<< In which I am called an "MPFag" on bitcointalk, whatever that means. [19:07]
assbot Analysis and list of top big blocks shills (XT #REKT ignorers) ... ( ) [19:07]
CowManure were either of those answers to my question? [19:10]
CowManure I'm just curious based on the comments in the bet i posted [19:11]
BingoBoingo CowManure: I am unsure [19:14]
* adlai1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [19:20]
kakobrekla seems like resolves that bet [19:25]
punkman the main chain of can be problematic if starts displaying both 1mb and >1mb chains concurrently [19:26]
kakobrekla but it say "any block ... on" [19:26]
punkman but also "main" [19:27]
kakobrekla bets are not resolved by title [19:27]
BingoBoingo Well sometimes they have been... [19:29]
kakobrekla like? [19:29]
BingoBoingo I dun remember [19:32]
BingoBoingo Mebbe I'm wrong [19:32]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14200 @ 0.00050045 = 7.1064 BTC [+] [19:40]
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BingoBoingo !up ascii_butugychat [19:43]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_butugychat [19:43]
ascii_butugychat << discussion was not solely about 'hieroglyphs', but even something as ordinary as matrix notation [19:49]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 20:57:40; trinque: mircea_popescu │ << i can't discern which side you're taking. << the side with mostly (if not *entirely*) plain english, and even better, represented as an explicit tree with s-expressions. that one can parse the hieroglyphs when he's habituated to them... fine, but I thought we were after "fits in head" here. how much skull-space does [19:49]
ascii_butugychat << take this [19:51]
assbot ... ( ) [19:51]
ascii_butugychat i am NOT interested in dealing with this in motherfuking VERBAL form [19:51]
ascii_butugychat all day, every day. [19:51]
ascii_butugychat for a student, sure [19:51]
ascii_butugychat (but not that i do not earn my bread in front of a classroom, also) [19:51]
* ascii_butugychat notices lulzy typo in own nick [19:52]
ascii_butugychat they are while i am. [19:54]
assbot quaternions is not registered in WoT. [19:54]
ascii_butugychat 'i am the lorax, who speaks for the trees!111' (tm) (r) [19:55]
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ascii_butugychat it is 'only' shorthand in exactly the same sense that the letters on your screen are 'shorthand' for raw bits [20:04]
ascii_butugychat could also wipe arse with tree bark [20:04]
ascii_butugychat yes, could [20:05]
ascii_butugychat or even not at all. [20:05]
ascii_butugychat ~could~ !!11 [20:05]
ascii_butugychat but WHY. [20:05]
ascii_butugychat it is not only a matter of characters [20:05]
ascii_butugychat (how to write integral? what if i want the stick longer? do i have to spend all day fitting the bloody thing to a grid?) [20:06]
ascii_butugychat ever typeset maths ? [20:07]
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trinque why not invent operators all day in C++ ? and were you to explain the distinction between the two, the conversation would end right there. [20:08]
ascii_butugychat trinque: c++ sucks and this is one reason why [20:09]
trinque for fucks sake. [20:09]
ascii_butugychat a proper language lets you make operators, as in where i solved mr mold's puzzle by turning a running cl into his language [20:09]
assbot Loper OS » Nock Nock (Part 1) ... ( ) [20:09]
trinque he is *not* a good example of someone creating a sane language [20:10]
trinque took something that fits to sexps just fine, made HOON [20:10]
ascii_butugychat not cited for that reason [20:10]
trinque nock, rather. [20:10]
ascii_butugychat but i ~was~ able to redefine square brackets, ?, ^, etc [20:11]
trinque your example is that "I was able to wrangle someone else's nonsense with lisp" and I agree it does that rather well. [20:11]
ascii_butugychat trinque: ever do any serious original mathematics ? [20:12]
trinque if it is up to you entirely to invent the notation, I don't know why one would go to one with non-obvious evaluation order and all manner of other problems I thought lisp solved [20:12]
ascii_butugychat or so much as attempt ? [20:12]
trinque no, I have not [20:12]
trinque and you are missing the part where I'm asking a damn question. [20:12]
trinque lol [20:12]
ascii_butugychat then i am trying to describe 'why musical staff' to deaf folk [20:12]
ascii_butugychat who ask 'why not just write, do ra mi...' [20:12]
trinque god that's another motherfucking terrible notation and I play music! [20:12]
ascii_butugychat so does trinque fancy switching to verbal musical staff ? [20:13]
ascii_butugychat do, ra, mi? [20:13]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_butugychat [20:13]
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ascii_butugychag ty jurov. or let's go back to basic kindergarten, [20:15]
assbot ... ( ) [20:15]
ascii_butugychag verbalize this for me. and explain why anyone outside of a mental asylum would want to manipulate the thing in that form. [20:15]
mircea_popescu what's wrong with (a,b ; c,d) ? [20:15]
ascii_butugychag that they are rows? of an inherently spatial thing ? [20:16]
ascii_butugychag might represent, e.g., pixels ? [20:16]
trinque can't write matrix multiplication in lisp eh? [20:17]
mircea_popescu nope, can't be done. [20:17]
ascii_butugychag can write in morse if you like [20:17]
ascii_butugychag the thread concerned THINKING [20:17]
ascii_butugychag as in, preferred format for manipulation. [20:17]
trinque as for music I prefer a tracker, or yes, writing code to produce it [20:17]
ascii_butugychag trinque: and your tracker is all-ascii, and runs on 'do, ra, mi' in paragraph form ? [20:18]
jurov well, i thought thread concerns spreading of information and definition of alphabet [20:18]
ascii_butugychag jurov: it was originally about 'whether maths require a graphics terminal' [20:19]
mircea_popescu no, it was whether we'll be supporting anything but ascii [20:19]
ascii_butugychag and the 'pdf must die and not replaced with anything like it' thing [20:19]
ascii_butugychag procrustean lunacy [20:19]
ascii_butugychag i am keeping my legs AND my head tyvm [20:19]
jurov oh, that it very much does for 99 out of 100 thinkers [20:19]
jurov that had math analysis lectures usign blackboard [20:20]
jurov if math analysis was taught in lisp, that would maybe not be the case [20:20]
mircea_popescu << rather. because it 'd be for once and all be an actually COMPLETE notation [20:20]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 23:01:59; jurov: actually, having clear transcription rules between math symbols <-> plain english would be spiffy [20:20]
mircea_popescu currently what alf counts as "notation" for math is roughly speaking a sort of c++ [20:20]
mircea_popescu "kinda most of the stuff except what we don't understand" [20:20]
ascii_butugychag it is imperfect [20:21]
ascii_butugychag but it beats FUCKING WORDS [20:21]
mircea_popescu no, it is not "imperfect". it is structurally broken [20:21]
mircea_popescu and the argument that it "beats words" is not unlike the argument that clang "beats lisp" because "apple ipad!!11" [20:21]
ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu: kindly 'unbrokenize' for me ? [20:21]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 23:13:12; ascii_butugychag: ty jurov. or let's go back to basic kindergarten, [20:21]
mircea_popescu ascii_butugychag you know that thing as displayed is actually meaningless. [20:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.00049749 = 6.0196 BTC [-] {2} [20:22]
ascii_butugychag it is most certainly ~not~ meaningless [20:22]
mircea_popescu what's "dot" ? [20:22]
ascii_butugychag it does not stand alone in an empty universe, no [20:22]
mircea_popescu heh. [20:22]
ascii_butugychag you gotta know some letters, what multiplication is, etc [20:22]
mircea_popescu your idea of meaning is unexamined. [20:22]
ascii_butugychag quite examined. [20:23]
mircea_popescu what's the difference between the forty and the sixty pixel tall long line with the little vertical ends ? [20:23]
ascii_butugychag just that i operate using an idea of meaning that lets me make things happen, occasionally, rather than having to stay in bed because we have not actually discovered REAL MEANING yet [20:23]
mircea_popescu heh [20:23]
mircea_popescu just like the c++ folks! [20:24]
mircea_popescu IT JUST WORKS!11 [20:24]
ascii_butugychag with the difference that i don't have to catch stroustrup and hang him upside-down and soldering iron to get new mathematical notation when i need it... [20:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18585 @ 0.00050023 = 9.2968 BTC [+] {2} [20:25]
mircea_popescu riiight. [20:25]
mircea_popescu it's not only unspecified, it's also... unusable by a machine. because who the fuck knows when you'll feel the need for colored unicodemen [20:25]
jurov mircea_popescu with all your hate of english why do you suddenly deem it fit to express math concepts unadorned? [20:25]
mircea_popescu english is just broken romanian ie latin. [20:25]
mircea_popescu for some reason most of my barbarian friends seem to prefer it! [20:26]
ascii_butugychag jurov: my understanding is that mircea_popescu is so allergic to 'visual thinker'-ism that he barfs just thinking about any such thing being intrinsic to some aspect of whatever discipline [20:26]
ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu prolly writes his electrical schematics as netlists every time, etc [20:26]
ascii_butugychag specifies plans for a building using words, like kind solomon [20:26]
ascii_butugychag *king [20:26]
ascii_butugychag etc [20:27]
mircea_popescu not even. it's just that i'm so allergic to "dynamically linked" bullshit that i barf at the very notion of a computing system that might need "expansions" because people don't want ot learn to read and write [20:27]
ascii_butugychag why does it 'need expansions' ? [20:27]
mircea_popescu do you understand that your computer is broken by design for as long as you allow the conceptual possibility of adding symbols ? [20:27]
ascii_butugychag what's wrong with programmatic fonts ? [20:27]
mircea_popescu nothing, as long as you don't expect me to run the program [20:28]
mircea_popescu ie, they degrade gracefully. [20:28]
mircea_popescu which is what started this entire discussion : pdf does not degrade gracefully [20:28]
mircea_popescu and as such fucking burn it. [20:28]
ascii_butugychag depends what means 'gracefully' [20:28]
deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination - [20:28]
mircea_popescu that i can see the complete meaning in plain text whenever i opt to not run whatever program. [20:28]
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ascii_butugychag for some reason i wonder if mircea_popescu has watched 'ascii starwars' [20:28]
mircea_popescu i have an ascii art plugin for mah video player ? [20:29]
ascii_butugychag does it convey the complete 'meaning of starwars' ? [20:29]
mircea_popescu which yes, i sometimes watch. [20:29]
ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu: iirc 'mplayer' does, aha [20:29]
mircea_popescu oh, that's not a challenge. [20:29]
mircea_popescu the complete meaning of star warsa can be conveyed in two lines. [20:29]
mircea_popescu ~= equivalent to all the rest of the us pulp, call it hubbard and send it home. [20:29]
mircea_popescu as long as what we do is we takeii and either print it as such or else draw it for your benefit as seen there, if you run a plug in everyone's happy. [20:31]
jurov how is adding symbols different from you taking a word and redefining it? [20:31]
jurov you abhor former, yet do latter often [20:31]
mircea_popescu if you expect to have a [ that scales to lines, we got a problem. there's not going to be any 244/245/179 bs [20:31]
mircea_popescu jurov the later is actually part of the graph. i can not meaningfully search for a motherfucking dot. [20:32]
mircea_popescu or for his dumbass arrows in the example given yest. [20:32]
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ascii_butugychag mircea_popescu: i did say many times that a canonical representation of whatever is, rightfully, sexpr [20:32]
mircea_popescu so then we basically are happy with an alphabet of ~100 ish characters and that's that. [20:32]
jurov well if I have to explore context what a word mean, well, then it is C++ too [20:33]
ascii_butugychag but somehow this turned into 'let's do maths as euclid did, with WORDZ!111' [20:33]
mircea_popescu jurov there's a difference between a proper existing ast, such as we have with words, unless we're idiots ; and a random gcc barf product. [20:33]
mircea_popescu ascii_butugychag well cuz you paniced and lost it. [20:33]
ascii_butugychag incidentally, english does NOT guarantee you a sane (disambiguated) AST. [20:34]
ascii_butugychag i thought this was known to all. [20:34]
mircea_popescu in myhands it does. [20:34]
jurov even with best affort of the author, ast in the recipients varies [20:34]
jurov *effort [20:35]
mircea_popescu that's the luser's problem. [20:35]
jurov for spoken english [20:35]
jurov lol [20:35]
mircea_popescu but be all this as it may, for as long as gossipd.pop | print yieldsiii for me while gossipd.pop | mathgraph yields whatever ascii wants it to yield, we're happy. [20:35]
jurov ascii_butugychag: you see, quaternions are not in his wot and it's problem of the lusers who use it [20:35]
ascii_butugychag actually english speakers are so habituated to this that they have problems with ANY attempt at 'english-parsing machine' [20:36]
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ascii_butugychag see the horrors in for instance [20:36]
assbot Loper OS » Why Hypercard Had to Die ... ( ) [20:36]
ascii_butugychag jurov: if this were actually so, and he were consistent about 'in wot', would have to avoid, e.g., aircraft with computerized autopilot [20:37]
jurov he surely tries [20:37]
ascii_butugychag and eulora [20:37]
ascii_butugychag with the quaternionic gpu [20:37]
mircea_popescu you don't have to run the graphical client! for all it cares you can talk to it by hand. [20:38]
ascii_butugychag but do you ? [20:38]
mircea_popescu looky : run diana_coman's bot, turn of the gfx altogether, it's 100% bash [20:38]
ascii_butugychag so the thing gracefully degrades to a text MUD? neato. [20:39]
mircea_popescu aha. [20:39]
mircea_popescu not by any means all my doing. but the design is sane and yes, it does. she's currently making a map of resources in practically this. [20:39]
ascii_butugychag very spiffy [20:40]
* ascii_butugychag always thought adventure games oughta work like this. [20:40]
mircea_popescu makes two of us. [20:40]
mircea_popescu and im not saying the gfx add-on is not helpful or w/e. but also not fucking mandatory. [20:40]
mircea_popescu and don't tell me "oh i can not keep maps in head o noes" [20:40]
mircea_popescu you playeds fucking rogue. [20:40]
ascii_butugychag 'advent' even ! [20:42]
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mircea_popescu !up RBL [20:43]
-assbot- You voiced RBL for 30 minutes. [20:43]
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mircea_popescu in fact, the eulora experience is very much in line with a lengthy personal history whereby very smart, well intentioned, patient people trying to cater to my shockingly insane whims and whines end up with exceptionally well crafted items that stand proudly on their own. [20:45]
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deedbot- [Qntra] Two US Navy Boats And Ten Sailors In Iranian Custody - [20:47]
mircea_popescu awww [20:47]
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BingoBoingo !up gabriel_laddel [20:48]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3394 @ 0.00049968 = 1.6959 BTC [-] {2} [20:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24510 @ 0.00049758 = 12.1957 BTC [-] {2} [20:51]
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BingoBoingo !up linton_s_dawson [20:54]
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mircea_popescu << i used to. not proposing that everyone gotta be me, or anything. but yes, i used to. [20:54]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 22:59:46; jurov: also, i can't imagine taking notes on math analysis lectures using "plaintext" only [20:54]
mircea_popescu actually... when it came time for the cantor proof, the "work hard" galz tried to copy the whole fucking matrix off the table, and this made a meme at the time [20:54]
mircea_popescu because nobody fucking sane actually thinks THAT is how you note down that thing. [20:54]
gabriel_laddel hahhahahaa [20:55]
mircea_popescu see the discussion with cads on the topic two years ago. the for ~ANY~ thing is what's important there. [20:55]
* mircea_popescu braces himself for "number theory is not really analysis and you're not doing REAL math, only we multiplying matrixes while polishing lenses are doing the real maths!" [20:56]
deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Silver at or over $19/oz before April - [20:56]
mircea_popescu how goes gabriel_laddel [20:59]
gabriel_laddel Fantastic at the moment. These logs are a treat. [21:00]
mircea_popescu << actually mold is a fine example of the hubbard/john smith sort of typically usian hack. took something, painted it, preteneded he made something. not unlike the derp that buys a ford truck, paints "lightning" on the sides, claims he build his own race car. [21:01]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 23:08:29; trinque: took something that fits to sexps just fine, made HOON [21:01]
mircea_popescu "oh, i'm not like those suckers working at pretending haskell is a thing ... i'm better than them... i'ma do the same thing by myself!!!!1" herp. [21:01]
gabriel_laddel [21:11]
assbot HOW TO FIND A JOB ... ( ) [21:11]
assbot MY NEW JOB ... ( ) [21:11]
gabriel_laddel Oh and [21:12]
assbot UNCLE AL'S FIRST JOBS ... ( ) [21:12]
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mircea_popescu incidentally asciilifeform ? [21:18]
assbot Loper OS » Why Hypercard Had to Die ... ( ) [21:18]
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phf gabriel_laddel: i was drunk when answering you last time. i like the idea of a self-contained lisp system with ux built on top of xproto/xlib/zen, because can still attach c program outputs, and stream own output to unix systems proper. i've been building my own tools to be essentially a combination of cmucl repl, that spawn xlib windows on demand. not sure if you know but x is essentially a binary network protocol (described in [21:22]
phf variations of "X Window System Protocol" documents), with xlib being its C implementation. core protocol is pretty simple, but problems start with protocol extensions of various levels of retardation (like xinerama, etc.) [21:22]
phf how xserver talks to hardware is entirely outside the scope of protocol, since server accepts the xproto packets and then does rendering [21:23]
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phf main problem with zen right now is that it does rendering, but it uses opengl (glx specifically) as the framebuffer. i've not looked at the implementation bits, but i assume that it goes beyond simple blit, so you might be able to retarget it to other opengl, but not necessarily straight to framebuffer, without implementing your own blit level rendering primitives [21:24]
phf also zen doesn't support most of the modern x11 extensions, that you might want for running something like firefox. in fact last time i checked it didn't support xrander, which is an old image composition extension that might as well be standard [21:25]
phf !up gabriel_laddel [21:32]
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gabriel_laddel "i've been building my own tools to be essentially a combination of cmucl repl, that spawn xlib windows on demand" << xlib windows that display what exactly? Large GUIs? Renderings of novel structures? [21:34]
phf gabriel_laddel: gnuplot, xfoil kind of output, i.e. batch graphic, or anything that requires input with a mouse [21:36]
phf i know you do clim, but running clim through zen is essentially simultaneously trying to debug two 70% speed/coverage projects. even simple handwritten xlib proggies don't work out of the box. [21:41]
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mats oh cads [21:44]
mats we were almost finalized on a small project where he'd design a widget and send me 3d prints of the prototype [21:46]
mats and then he disappeared forever (I didn't render any payment, though) [21:47]
mats ;;seen cads [21:47]
gribble cads was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 40 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 22 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: being Professor Cads in an underground university [21:47]
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gabriel_laddel phf: "because can still attach c program outputs" + "zen doesn't support most of the modern x11 extensions, that you might want for running something like firefox". We have CLIM irc, a listener (repl), an editor, dired + other. I don't particularly want to run c programs. You'd just end up reinventing CLIM anyways after you notice that "gee, it would be nice to have draggable crossbars in my GUI and geometry". [21:54]
gabriel_laddel phf: yes, debugging CLIM + zen at the same time is going to suck, but debugging CLIM + xlib sucks, and I have not yet compared the two to find out which is worse. [21:55]
gabriel_laddel It seems like what you're getting at is that the correct order of affairs is to tackle zen first, and then CLIM? [21:56]
mircea_popescu phf there is no native lisp gfx engine ? [21:56]
gabriel_laddel Heh, define native. [21:57]
mircea_popescu "opengl implemented in lisp" [21:57]
gabriel_laddel No such thing. [21:58]
mircea_popescu ahahahaahah what [21:58]
mircea_popescu why the fuck not ? [21:58]
mircea_popescu no, let me rephrase that. [21:58]
gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: have you tried reading the OpenGL spec? [21:58]
mircea_popescu why not back in 1999 when opengl was not even taking over yet ? [21:58]
mircea_popescu im not the one that loves lisp. [21:59]
mircea_popescu but yes, i know. [21:59]
phf gabriel_laddel: i'm saying that it's only worthwhile to bring in zen if you want to ultimately do x11 support for foreign code. right now your problem is clim+xlib, you want your problem to be clim+xlib+zen+cl-opengl+glx. if the ultimate goal is drop x, then might as well try and retarget clim to framebuffer. the two (adding zen and framebuffer clim) or at 100% identical in the amount of effort [21:59]
mircea_popescu nevertheless... [21:59]
gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: they did. Symbolics. [21:59]
gabriel_laddel S-GRAPHICS [21:59]
mircea_popescu that wasn't opengl [21:59]
gabriel_laddel phf: ah. [21:59]
gabriel_laddel phf: Thanks. [22:00]
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phf mircea_popescu: i think that there's a bunch of people trying to chuck moore their way out of "modern computing" here, as such there's not native anything [22:01]
mircea_popescu incidentally if things are this fucked up, the correct avenue would probably be to define a full gfx stack [22:01]
phf *people here [22:02]
mircea_popescu phf you mean in lisp ? or what here ? [22:02]
phf mircea_popescu: here as in in #b-a [22:02]
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mircea_popescu i dun follow. [22:02]
mircea_popescu the lisp power rangers failed to lead the wave in implementing opengl correctly twenty years ago [22:03]
mircea_popescu because of what we do in ba ?! [22:03]
phf mircea_popescu: oh, no, that was the answer to "there is no native lisp gfx engine?" [22:03]
mircea_popescu there should have been long ago. wtf is this joek. [22:04]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9711 @ 0.00050556 = 4.9095 BTC [+] [22:04]
mircea_popescu what, all through 1995 - 2005 everyone "in lisp" sat around on their ass passing back and forth stories of how cool moon was in the 70s and how great gabriel's hairdo looks ? [22:06]
phf everything talks to xlib, win32, carbon/cocoa and on top of that to opengl, directx. there are parts of that stack implemented in lisp (either as clients or as hosts). there's no opengl in lisp, there's opengl client in lisp. there's both xlib client and server in lisp, etc. there's not enough lisp code to run the whole graphics stack from the lisp machine to the video card end to end [22:06]
mircea_popescu because lisp is so empowering and shit ? [22:06]
phf mircea_popescu: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak? [22:08]
mircea_popescu yeah well... this logic is broken. so lisp is good because, and i quote, "Because Lisp, as a tool, is to the mind as the lever is to the arm. It amplifies your power and enables you to embark on projects beyond the scope of lesser languages like C. Writing in C is like building a mosaic out of lentils using a tweezer and glue. Lisp is like wielding an air gun with power and precision. It opens out whole kingdoms [22:08]
mircea_popescu shut to other programmers." [22:08]
mircea_popescu meanwhile... there is an implementation of particularly gnarly in c, but not in lisp. [22:09]
mircea_popescu are we in a singularity ? [22:09]
mircea_popescu and nobody seems to rub the lispers' face in this, either. what, there's some sort of chivalrous convention i don't know about going on ? [22:09]
phf mircea_popescu: oh they do, that's a common argument [22:10]
mircea_popescu "take your propeller-hat, your paranthesis and your spielhosen away from here and come back when you have a fully native gfx stack." [22:10]
mircea_popescu a ? i guess teh summarizer's been sparing me. [22:10]
mircea_popescu but what's the problem, anyway ? seems like this is an exact match for the argued strengths of lisp. [22:11]
* assbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel [22:11]
mircea_popescu (note that i'm not discussing performance. i'm not going hey, why doesn't lisp-gl push out 2x the fps of directx in 2001. just, it should be abel to do it, at all.) [22:12]
gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: After SMBX died CL had to be re-implemented. [22:12]
mircea_popescu i can readily understand why the ~performance~ issue is a true quagmire. [22:12]
* moldysnizz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [22:12]
gabriel_laddel non-CL lispers by-and-large, fail to understand why they're using lisp at all. [22:12]
mircea_popescu how do you mean ? [22:13]
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gabriel_laddel Some 'lisper' who 'gets it' will implement a 'lisp' on top of another system and declare that "for such and such political/business reasons, the system we're basing our lisp on won't change its foundations, and therefore we're safe to write code on top of it" [22:15]
mircea_popescu ... [22:15]
gabriel_laddel Then, inevitably, the foundations change. [22:15]
gabriel_laddel No lisper to date has produced a distro that DOES NOT CHANGE so one may use it as a platform for application development. Lisp solves a well-specified set of problems - ensuring that your algol reproducibly builds is not one of them. [22:16]
gabriel_laddel As for why a lisper didn't write his own OS from ASM? Well, you've read Stan's blog. [22:18]
asciilifeform << this makes roughly as much sense as 'cobol in lisp' [22:20]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 00:55:42; mircea_popescu: "opengl implemented in lisp" [22:20]
asciilifeform yes, you could. [22:20]
asciilifeform but WHY?!! [22:20]
mircea_popescu !rate chetty 10 No longer with us, and not replaceable. [22:20]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [22:20]
mircea_popescu !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.chetty.10:e7478a460e183d3fe8a22a4aa41725df6b948a37e9a333aa5c13d44d44e3683a [22:20]
assbot Successfully updated the rating for chetty from 5 to 10 with note: No longer with us, and not replaceable. [22:20]
asciilifeform and opengl is a heathen thing anyway, because there is no documented gpu. [22:20]
phf mircea_popescu: there's a limited number of lispers and they all scratch their own itch. without centralized visions results barely compose. gabriel_laddel needs working clim for his projects. robert strandh only occasionally hacks on mcclim anymore, spends most of his time on n-th rewrite of emacs, etc. and of course there are arguments of what the components should be and how they should compose. the only common ground is the [22:20]
phf specification and some symbolics artifacts [22:20]
asciilifeform << no shit, the braindamaged opengl thing had not been yet conceived of then [22:21]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 00:57:41; mircea_popescu: that wasn't opengl [22:21]
asciilifeform << define away. who will produce ? [22:21]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 00:59:45; mircea_popescu: incidentally if things are this fucked up, the correct avenue would probably be to define a full gfx stack [22:21]
asciilifeform << this is demonstrably false, and wtf, 'power rangers', smbx had a 100% lispified 3d accelerator in the '80s. [22:23]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:01:16; mircea_popescu: the lisp power rangers failed to lead the wave in implementing opengl correctly twenty years ago [22:23]
asciilifeform << lisp in '95-05 is roughly where ru was in '90s - laments and vodka [22:24]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:04:05; mircea_popescu: what, all through 1995 - 2005 everyone "in lisp" sat around on their ass passing back and forth stories of how cool moon was in the 70s and how great gabriel's hairdo looks ? [22:24]
asciilifeform and could not have been anything else [22:24]
asciilifeform << is the concept of impedance-mismatch-with-os unclear to mircea_popescu ? [22:24]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:07:02; mircea_popescu: meanwhile... there is an implementation of particularly gnarly in c, but not in lisp. [22:24]
asciilifeform do i have to chew it into small pieces ? [22:24]
gabriel_laddel Please, for the 100th time, go right on ahead. [22:25]
gabriel_laddel Why, stan, are threads a bad idea? [22:26]
asciilifeform << forget gpu, there is not a usefully lispified driver for ANYTHING ELSE in x86 hardware ! and for reasons that have to do with how the idiot architecture is built (can i haz atomic lisp operation? no, because interrupts on x86. i wasted most of a decade on this) [22:26]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:07:28; mircea_popescu: and nobody seems to rub the lispers' face in this, either. what, there's some sort of chivalrous convention i don't know about going on ? [22:26]
asciilifeform << 'give si fab and then we talk' [22:26]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:08:37; mircea_popescu: "take your propeller-hat, your paranthesis and your spielhosen away from here and come back when you have a fully native gfx stack." [22:26]
asciilifeform << because there is no standard hardware platform. [22:27]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:14:54; gabriel_laddel: No lisper to date has produced a distro that DOES NOT CHANGE so one may use it as a platform for application development. Lisp solves a well-specified set of problems - ensuring that your algol reproducibly builds is not one of them. [22:27]
asciilifeform and no sign of such a thing being buildable [22:27]
* asciilifeform just notices: [22:28]
asciilifeform << !! [22:28]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:18:12; mircea_popescu: !rate chetty 10 No longer with us, and not replaceable. [22:28]
* asciilifeform takes off hat [22:28]
asciilifeform << i'll leave it to gabriel_laddel, adlai, et al, i've not the time or energy. [22:28]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:23:53; gabriel_laddel: Please, for the 100th time, go right on ahead. [22:28]
phf here's an s-graphics made animation instead [22:30]
assbot CHARLES RANDALL - " The Minds Eye - # 7 " - YouTube ... ( ) [22:30]
asciilifeform phf: more famous: [22:31]
assbot Stanley & Stella in Breaking the Ice (1987) - YouTube ... ( ) [22:31]
asciilifeform ^ and those swarms were properly computed, even [22:31]
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* asciilifeform patiently waits for mircea_popescu post concerning [22:51]
assbot Logged on 13-01-2016 01:18:12; mircea_popescu: !rate chetty 10 No longer with us, and not replaceable. [22:51]
asciilifeform ;;later tell kakobrekla << makes sense, i suspected this [23:15]
gribble The operation succeeded. [23:15]
assbot Logged on 12-01-2016 18:41:01; kakobrekla: ;;later tell asciilifeform [23:15]
kakobrekla aha [23:18]
mod6 ;;later tell pete_dushenski hey, got your msg. hit me up when you're around. [23:30]
gribble The operation succeeded. [23:30]
mod6 asciilifeform takes off hat << oh no! [23:31]
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Category: Logs
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