Forum logs for 08 Jul 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't.	[00:00]
asciilifeform	l337 m4rk3tz	[00:00]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Note that in North America gay rights became popular as femal obesity rates spiked	[00:00]
decimation	lol blockchain.info is still posting 1-size blocks	[00:00]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes	[00:01]
asciilifeform	decimation: link ?	[00:01]
*	WolfGoethe has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[00:01]
decimation	https://blockchain.info/	[00:01]
assbot	Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZA5db )	[00:01]
mats	lol	[00:01]
decimation	2 in the last 30 minutes	[00:01]
mats	such social commentary	[00:01]
asciilifeform	ph0rkz!!!	[00:01]
decimation	I guess.	[00:01]
asciilifeform	ph0rkr4pht!	[00:02]
decimation	it would be interesting to know how blockchain.info gets its data	[00:02]
BingoBoingo	BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't. << She apparently even managed to fuck this up. Reportedly gave friend sad handjob and blackmailed for attention the next day with promise of putting out eventually. Was driven to bar in the ghetto and left (could not run to vehicle in time to stop it)	[00:02]
*	williamdunne for a while no longer has to worry about getting laid	[00:02]
williamdunne	decimation: carrier pigeon, although it's suffering with pattern baldness	[00:02]
decimation	I hope those 'bitcoin core' dumbfucks are happy with the progress they are making	[00:02]
BingoBoingo	BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes << 31337 social engineering	[00:03]
williamdunne	It really is remarkable how blockchain.info didn't go down the goxhole, they just consistently break	[00:03]
asciilifeform	because nobody really relies on it for anything	[00:03]
asciilifeform	hence failure - no problem	[00:03]
asciilifeform	https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000abdbee0b1c681c7bd3ebd5753af822fdaf7a6754e154b50	[00:03]
assbot	Bitcoin Block #364343 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAcW6 )	[00:03]
williamdunne	"MyWallet" ?	[00:04]
asciilifeform	https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000009ba590de2819dd4b4f7741fc4b9fc9d45c2e1e00d0ca6ec	[00:04]
assbot	Bitcoin Block #364339 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAdcG )	[00:04]
decimation	interesting 364343 was relayed by 65.182.235.207	[00:06]
BingoBoingo	williamdunne: When piuk rolled out blockchain.info it was the best block explorer. Once he stopped doing everything it swiftly went to shit and got Andreas'd	[00:06]
decimation	which is purported to be in canby, oregon	[00:06]
decimation	wasn't that where the bctc guy lived?	[00:07]
williamdunne	BingoBoingo: I can't tolerate any of them currently. Blockchain.info is constantly broken, and all the others have these horrible gaudy interfaces.	[00:07]
decimation	it appears the coinbase one agrees with blockchain.info https://bitcoin.toshi.io/#block	[00:08]
assbot	Toshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZACM6 )	[00:08]
BingoBoingo	williamdunne: And this is what temps me to fuck with running an electrum server. To run a private block explorer accountable only to me when it barfs	[00:08]
williamdunne	BingoBoingo: no bootstrap plz	[00:08]
BingoBoingo	WHen have I ever used bootstrap?	[00:10]
williamdunne	It seems to be a default option, not a personal accusation	[00:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.0005515 = 4.9635 BTC [-]	[00:10]
williamdunne	Qntra style would be lovely <3	[00:10]
asciilifeform	http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CEB08E08EEF3C71AEC185767B076C306E945E535BE55A8CAAAB9378A9F7CD4D1 << missed by scoopbot ?	[00:11]
assbot	Welcome \| Phuctor ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAQ5O )	[00:11]
williamdunne	asciilifeform: Scoopbot doesn't deal with phuctor, that's trinquebot	[00:12]
asciilifeform	and what is 'marketplace.i2p' ?	[00:12]
asciilifeform	( as seen in http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4FC297377727D7EDA1512181888ECF02A8A5E5BC9B8406B2BF852B84F32FD55A )	[00:12]
williamdunne	asciilifeform: I'd presume a marketplace on i2p	[00:12]
asciilifeform	well sure	[00:12]
asciilifeform	but ~what~	[00:12]
asciilifeform	anybody got a box running i2p?	[00:12]
asciilifeform	i can't be arsed	[00:12]
williamdunne	https://www.reddit.com/r/themarketplace/	[00:13]
assbot	The Market Place - An Anonymous Market Built To Enable Trustless Transactions. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZB4de )	[00:13]
williamdunne	mabbeh that one	[00:13]
decimation	asciilifeform: it strikes me that your choice of location is to some degree a 'prisoner's dilemma'.	[00:18]
asciilifeform	?	[00:18]
decimation	everyone in your meatwot could probably get a better deal if they lived somewhere cheaper	[00:19]
asciilifeform	like botswana	[00:19]
decimation	but 'cooperation' in moving together is much more expensive than 'defection' to the local area	[00:19]
decimation	hell, west virginia	[00:19]
asciilifeform	one fella did	[00:19]
asciilifeform	now he sits in car for 4 hours instead of 2	[00:19]
trinque	to be fair, west virginia is a shithole	[00:19]
decimation	heh well that's not very much moving	[00:19]
decimation	trinque: sure, but it wouldn't be if people moved there	[00:20]
trinque	maybe so	[00:20]
decimation	why do they all defect to the big city every day	[00:20]
asciilifeform	it would also cost what maryland costs	[00:20]
asciilifeform	if folks moved there	[00:20]
trinque	most notable thing I recall about WV is that giant teapot	[00:20]
asciilifeform	elementary.	[00:20]
asciilifeform	as soon as you start moving in folks with money, it stops 'being cheap'	[00:20]
asciilifeform	the rent collectors don't sleep	[00:20]
decimation	asciilifeform: partially because more dollars are 'created' to bid up assets	[00:21]
williamdunne	http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33414264	[00:21]
williamdunne	Hilarious, he's being charged for this	[00:21]
asciilifeform	even if dollars were conserved	[00:21]
decimation	I suspect that problem wouldn't be as pronounced with a hard-banking hard currency	[00:21]
assbot	Canadian flew over Calgary in chair carried by balloons - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZBMqN )	[00:21]
decimation	sure, folks would bid up assets, but the vast majority of bids in the wash dc area are 'zombies'	[00:22]
decimation	ie usg passthroughs	[00:22]
asciilifeform	and our collective salaries - aren't ?	[00:22]
trinque	"Mr Boria has been charged with mischief causing danger to life and could face further charges." << wait... his?	[00:22]
decimation	heh good point	[00:22]
decimation	the question is: how much of the money that is 'freshly printed' by the fed or a bank part of the wash dc bid?	[00:22]
decimation	that's theoretically measurable	[00:23]
asciilifeform	at this point, i don't regard any aspect of the whole orchestra as honestly measurable	[00:23]
asciilifeform	other than - just possibly - by the perpetrators	[00:23]
williamdunne	trinque: Yes, his. Unless they're suggesting his stray garden chair could mysteriously strike someone down	[00:23]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778096 << see also	[00:23]
assbot	Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'	[00:23]
decimation	you could multiply direct gov spending by the 'print factor'	[00:24]
decimation	but that would only capture a portion - it would exclude the portion magicked into existance by banks	[00:24]
asciilifeform	what does one get from multiplying one work of fiction by another ?	[00:24]
decimation	heh	[00:24]
asciilifeform	let's multiply width of unicorn's horn at its base by the length of yeti's cock	[00:25]
asciilifeform	equals depth of mermaid's snatch ?	[00:25]
decimation	then map the yeti/uni/heat cock	[00:25]
decimation	I guess it would be a useful as the map that nyt ran which indicated the density of racists over usa	[00:25]
asciilifeform	aha	[00:26]
*	asciilifeform wonders if they recycled map of communists from '50s or bothered to make a new one	[00:26]
decimation	http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/f-16-and-small-private-plane-collide-in-midair-over-south-carolina.html < usg cares for its people	[00:27]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCowG )	[00:27]
asciilifeform	http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/gun-shaped-iphone-case-is-a-terrible-idea-police-officials-warn.html << in other lulz	[00:28]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCuEv )	[00:28]
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asciilifeform	'Mr. Schumer said a federal law requires toy or imitation guns to feature a highly visible orange mark at the end of the barrel to identify them as harmless. Since the phone case does not have the marker, he said, he would work with customs officials to block its import and sale.' << l0l! srsly?	[00:29]
asciilifeform	1) spray orange paint on 'thompson' 2) pull out in front of police 3) ??? 4) profit!!!111!	[00:30]
decimation	asciilifeform: note that the police are rarely punished for shooting innocents	[00:32]
decimation	http://users.humboldt.edu/mstephens/hate/hate_map.html# < note that 'nigger' correlates with large black populations, similar for others	[00:32]
assbot	Hate Map ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCQv1 )	[00:32]
asciilifeform	latest memo to police almost certainly reads 'plz shoot only white, thx'	[00:33]
mats	'chink' doesn't correlate to california at all	[00:34]
mats	or any place with large asian populations that i'm aware of	[00:34]
mats	worst app ever	[00:35]
asciilifeform	mats is surprised to discover that unicorn's snatch depth does not correlate with mermaid's cock length ?	[00:35]
decimation	mats: note that the 'normalize by the number of tweets'	[00:35]
decimation	thus effectively discounting the liberal population centers	[00:35]
asciilifeform	thttp://www.hardforkcoin.org << for entomologists only!111!!1	[00:36]
decimation	so the self-serving bastards can come to the conclusion that those rednecks out in the sticks are the real racists	[00:36]
mats	so what i need an inverse contrast map	[00:36]
mats	and avoid everything else	[00:36]
decimation	heh yeah	[00:36]
mats	thats a lot of america	[00:36]
mats	but i knew that already	[00:36]
funkenstein_	metastudies of tweets <-- totally useless waste of time	[00:38]
decimation	funkenstein_: my favorite study of the issue: http://unamusementpark.com/2011/07/blacks-ruin-fourth-of-july-in-baltimore-media-censor-race/	[00:39]
assbot	Unamusement Park » Blog Archive » Blacks ruin Fourth of July in Baltimore; media censor race ... ( http://bit.ly/1HMCsW0 )	[00:39]
decimation	guy found tweets by black people in baltimore back during fourth of july 2011, when there was violence	[00:40]
asciilifeform	isn't that the fella who got 'beaten to death by accident' in a johannesburg police station ?	[00:40]
decimation	heh it might be	[00:40]
asciilifeform	i recall the liberast blogosphere laughing maniacally about this	[00:40]
asciilifeform	'racist gets just deserts'	[00:40]
decimation	he seems to have posted in janurary	[00:42]
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asciilifeform	perhaps it was the one who did 'across difficult country'	[00:43]
asciilifeform	i forget.	[00:43]
asciilifeform	don't give much of a shit any more	[00:43]
mats	i'm enjoying the tweets on that link, decimation	[00:44]
mats	ebonics has so much... variety	[00:44]
funkenstein_	i talk with criminal slang	[00:44]
funkenstein_	i read some tweets once, it was when dorian was being collected	[00:46]
funkenstein_	after that i vowed never again	[00:46]
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decimation	mats: amusingly 'unamusement park' is totally blacklisted from all search engines	[00:48]
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decimation	!up Vexual	[00:52]
*	assbot gives voice to Vexual	[00:52]
funkenstein_	reminds me of Eddie Murphy's grandmother: "What time is it?"	[00:55]
funkenstein_	it might be an interesting simulation to see what would happen if not only all nodes but all miners had no real clock	[00:56]
funkenstein_	difficulty would stay constant I suppose	[00:56]
funkenstein_	well the latitude is easy	[00:58]
funkenstein_	for longitude, i believe there is a book by sobel or something	[00:58]
decimation	http://asteroidoccultation.com/asteroid.htm < you can see local asteroid occulations	[00:59]
assbot	Asteroid Occultation Predictions (Current) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEfl2 )	[00:59]
decimation	you can calculate them yourself with winblows turdware and usg provided emphemeris data http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/occult4.htm	[00:59]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEigZ )	[00:59]
decimation	longitude requires knowledge of time	[01:00]
funkenstein_	nothing under magnitude 10, makes it difficult on my canoe	[01:01]
funkenstein_	but I like it anyway	[01:02]
funkenstein_	figure of speech	[01:03]
decimation	http://www.amazon.com/Long-Term-Almanac-2000-2050-Reduction/dp/0914025104 < tables to 2050	[01:04]
assbot	Long Term Almanac 2000-2050: For the Sun and Selected Stars With Concise Sight Reduction Tables, 2nd Edition: Geoffrey Kolbe: 9780914025108: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1HMFRnX )	[01:04]
decimation	around 40 n	[01:10]
decimation	yeah, and uk is even father	[01:11]
decimation	farther	[01:11]
decimation	usg charges for their nautical almanacs	[01:13]
decimation	http://bookstore.gpo.gov/agency/1449	[01:13]
assbot	Nautical Almanac Office \| U.S. Government Bookstore ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEU67 )	[01:13]
decimation	australian?	[01:13]
decimation	yeah uk is roughly 50-60 n	[01:13]
decimation	london is 51 n	[01:14]
decimation	it's relatively warm because of the gulf stream	[01:14]
decimation	ottawa, canada is roughly 45 n for instance	[01:15]
decimation	but much colder	[01:15]
decimation	50 s is well south of tasmania	[01:16]
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decimation	that's probably why nobody lives on macquarie island	[01:17]
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decimation	yeah apparently they killed all the mammals	[01:20]
ben_vulpes	http://people.csail.mit.edu/hofma/Assets/Thesis_12_02_2005.pdf << okay now this is cool	[01:21]
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mats	man	[01:29]
mats	i set up a raid0 with two SSDs	[01:29]
mats	and windoze updates on this box still takes hours wtf	[01:29]
mats	o/	[01:30]
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ben_vulpes	> windows	[01:39]
ben_vulpes	mk	[01:39]
ben_vulpes	help i am 1200 lines behind	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	have less sex.	[01:39]
ben_vulpes	do y'all eventually get to why averaging out umpteen 2016 blocks won't work in place of timekeeping?	[01:43]
asciilifeform	!b 3	[01:43]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2J2VN7A.txt )	[01:43]
decimation	about 80% of it: use ntp! no time itself is owned by usg and so are all servers and isps!	[01:43]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: for the same reason pulling one's cock doesn't work as a means of flight	[01:43]
ben_vulpes	what?	[01:44]
asciilifeform	'in place of timekeeping'	[01:44]
ben_vulpes	sorry, diff adjustments.	[01:44]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: they take place with wall clock as invariant	[01:45]
asciilifeform	i spent all morning trying to hammer this into thick headz	[01:45]
asciilifeform	if you plug block times into wall clock, letting the former adjust the latter, you've plugged arse into mouth	[01:45]
ben_vulpes	made good progress i see	[01:45]
asciilifeform	and are no longer using classical bitcoin	[01:45]
ben_vulpes	alas.	[01:46]
ben_vulpes	the thing is miserably bad anyways, why would anyone want to use it?	[01:46]
asciilifeform	still lost on me	[01:46]
ben_vulpes	anyways, how do you plan to handle this on pogos?	[01:47]
asciilifeform	no idea	[01:47]
asciilifeform	left it to ben_vulpes to solve	[01:47]
ben_vulpes	you know i'm not even convinced a node should be stood up without human intervention.	[01:48]
asciilifeform	then shouldn't have any interest in pogo	[01:48]
asciilifeform	because whole fucking point of it is that and only that.	[01:48]
ben_vulpes	well "should" is a strong word	[01:48]
asciilifeform	point of pogo is to allow well-meaning but illiterate or even stupid people to run therealbitcoin.	[01:49]
asciilifeform	(and don't forget the merely lazy)	[01:49]
decimation	ben_vulpes: it seemed that there was some some concensus around the idea of randomly selecting a small set of ntp servers out of a large pre-defined set	[01:49]
decimation	this doesn't solve the "pogo clock is shit" problem	[01:49]
asciilifeform	except then danielpbarron reminded us that this will have to happen regularly	[01:49]
asciilifeform	because the thing drifts to all hell	[01:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68400 @ 0.00055147 = 37.7205 BTC [-] {2}	[01:50]
asciilifeform	(marvell chipset ~has~ rtc, but the vendor omitted the 32kHz crystal and power source.)	[01:50]
ben_vulpes	i'm sure moreso under load	[01:50]
asciilifeform	so it uses interrupt-based timing, like msdos	[01:50]
asciilifeform	aha, ben_vulpes has it	[01:50]
decimation	which means continous correction is nearly required	[01:50]
ben_vulpes	myeah, i see that.	[01:51]
decimation	asciilifeform: as to ass-to-mouth system, it depends on your error model for thblock timestamps	[01:51]
asciilifeform	arse-to-mouth is a strictly fact-of thing	[01:51]
decimation	imagine each miner has his own cesium clock	[01:51]
asciilifeform	and meet in the flesh to sync it ?	[01:52]
asciilifeform	let's also imagine dragons.	[01:52]
asciilifeform	try to grasp why political time is a fiction	[01:52]
asciilifeform	and why rsa signatures do not make it less of one	[01:52]
decimation	asciilifeform: it's really hard to imagine when < 100 ns accuracy is nearly freely and reliably avaialable	[01:52]
asciilifeform	picture the proverbial devil in the cable. he perhaps cannot diddle your packets (because you signed them, and have traded pubkeys in person) but he can... delay them	[01:52]
asciilifeform	as long as he likes	[01:53]
asciilifeform	and also can replay.	[01:53]
asciilifeform	the accuracy doesn't matter because you have no way of knowing whether the above have been done to you	[01:53]
asciilifeform	and when	[01:53]
asciilifeform	much of our thought takes place in an imaginary world where communication is instantaneous, perfectly reliable, and perfectly incorruptible. but we do not actually live in that world.	[01:55]
asciilifeform	nor do we get the luxury of precise, predictable delta from that world.	[01:55]
decimation	ntp has provisions against replay and deplay attacks	[01:57]
asciilifeform	replay i can see	[01:57]
asciilifeform	but delay ?	[01:57]
asciilifeform	how ?	[01:57]
asciilifeform	let me guess, by comparing the behaviour of one node with others	[01:57]
asciilifeform	aka lifting yourself up by own cock.	[01:57]
asciilifeform	in my expected battlefield, chances are that either none of your links are sybils, or ALL OF THEM ARE	[01:58]
asciilifeform	comparing a subset of your field of vision with the rest does nothing against the latter.	[01:58]
decimation	plus the behaviour of one node over time	[01:59]
asciilifeform	can be perfectly consistent	[01:59]
asciilifeform	while leading you straight to hell	[01:59]
asciilifeform	all of this goes back to the 'protocol vs promises' discussion	[02:00]
asciilifeform	it is possible to count the pulses of a pulsar, of cesium atom, of quartz, etc	[02:00]
asciilifeform	but as soon as you ask another person 'what time is it' you are playing political games	[02:01]
decimation	http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/onwire.html The symmetric modes operate using a sequence of rounds, each consisting of a transmit packet followed by a receive packet, but either of both of these packets could be lost. A round is correct if both packets are correctly received. In order to verify correctness of the protocol, it is necessary to prove a liveness assertion; that is, the protocol always yields a correct round even if after	[02:01]
asciilifeform	there is not actually a way out of this	[02:01]
assbot	Object not found! ... ( http://bit.ly/1NN9O7t )	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	you know i'm not even convinced a node should be stood up without human intervention. << this may be true.	[02:01]
asciilifeform	^ then there ought to be 100 nodes, running on 'microvax'	[02:02]
mircea_popescu	and the followin line does not follow. some intelligent people are poor, or more to wit : some poor people are (allegedly) intelligent. i doub this is true. but if it were, pogo is their way out.	[02:02]
asciilifeform	because that's how many people alive are ~actually qualified~	[02:02]
mircea_popescu	and if they fail to find it, or to take it, you have no case.	[02:02]
mircea_popescu	point of pogo is to allow well-meaning but illiterate or even stupid people to run therealbitcoin. << no. well meaning stupid is the LAST thing we want. i'd rather import us academia.	[02:02]
asciilifeform	then wtf is the point	[02:02]
mircea_popescu	what you want is the alleged minialfs who exist. people who supposedly could use the head, but somehow magically "not enough fuel"	[02:03]
asciilifeform	and if it has to be blessed with the magical breath of life of intelligence every time mains power flickers, it is a proverbial 'assembly line requiring ph.d.s' to borrow from al schwartz	[02:03]
asciilifeform	i.e. a sad joke	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	now this is true	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	but notice that this does not run as far as the previous	[02:03]
asciilifeform	that's all i was trying to say	[02:03]
mircea_popescu	aite.	[02:03]
asciilifeform	there is also cuckoldry aspect here	[02:04]
asciilifeform	one ought to be able to drop pogos on a dumb corp's net	[02:04]
asciilifeform	and have them operate	[02:04]
asciilifeform	no shortage of eligible cuckolds and cuckolders for this	[02:05]
asciilifeform	but it has to be practical	[02:05]
decimation	I view the firewall/nat problem as much bigger	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	if you can do that, comandeer a server.	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	less noticeable than "wtf is this new item"	[02:05]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: many, many more people who can 'commandeer' a broom closet with ethernet	[02:05]
asciilifeform	believe.	[02:05]
asciilifeform	and hardly ever anyone asks 'what is this'	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	so no, i do not believe pogo has anything to do with http://trilema.com/open-parasitic-p2p-relay	[02:05]
assbot	[OPEN] Parasitic P2P Relay on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaB8D )	[02:05]
asciilifeform	not directly.	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	also in the news : the well rounded education. http://41.media.tumblr.com/00c3d0c2cdb22bedb8754888b020266e/tumblr_mtfjsjpKCf1ryftdoo1_1280.jpg	[02:06]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaCJC )	[02:06]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: you need a million tyler durdens.	[02:06]
ben_vulpes	and they can bless a pogo.	[02:06]
asciilifeform	i thought those just set things on fire ?	[02:06]
ben_vulpes	and pogo is?	[02:07]
decimation	http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-mob-technology-consultants-help-drug-traffickers/ < "The device they built looked like a European version of a power strip. Tucked inside a 15-by-5-inch casing was a tiny Linux computer running powerful hacking software called Metasploit. The pwnie sent out data via cellular networks, which meant they could be accessed from anywhere."	[02:07]
assbot	The Mob's IT Department \| Bloomberg Business ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaNVl )	[02:07]
asciilifeform	a land mine that has to be rebooted by hand every few weeks is a sad joke.	[02:07]
asciilifeform	i stand by this.	[02:07]
decimation	maybe the land mine reboots you	[02:07]
asciilifeform	decimation: not only classic, but so cliche that there are 1,001 commercial copies	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	" running powerful hacking software called Metasploit"	[02:07]
decimation	http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114367/	[02:07]
assbot	Planète hurlante (1995) - IMDb ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaSbF )	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	who the fuck still reads these things	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, actually, it's a good idea.	[02:08]
mircea_popescu	i'd like land mines like that. so would every army out there.	[02:08]
decimation	apparently some mobster in amsterdam recruited a couple of nerds to exploit shipping companies	[02:08]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: you want them on the other side, aha	[02:08]
asciilifeform	shoot the idiots while they crawl around rebooting.	[02:08]
mircea_popescu	no, the problem with landmines atm is that they can't be safely defused	[02:08]
mircea_popescu	if you got 100% guaranteed 2 week only mines, o boy.	[02:09]
asciilifeform	the 'safe defuse with key' thing already exists	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	you'd be rich with this. fo realz.	[02:09]
asciilifeform	notice, not popular	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	cuz not reliable.	[02:09]
asciilifeform	dun think thats why	[02:09]
asciilifeform	rather, because winblowz	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	a 99.999% success rate is the last thing you want.	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	drop 1mn mines, get killed 10 times.	[02:09]
asciilifeform	this is sop btw	[02:09]
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asciilifeform	ask folks who work with frags	[02:09]
asciilifeform	there is a certain statistic for how many have, e.g., 1sec fuse	[02:10]
asciilifeform	(if rated is 5)	[02:10]
asciilifeform	'get killed 10 times' is actually doing pretty well ahead of the curve!	[02:10]
decimation	yeah plenty of folks die trying to learn how to throw gernades	[02:11]
asciilifeform	the reason, afaik, why 'defuse with key' did not catch on is a ~well-founded~ distrust of computer	[02:11]
asciilifeform	'computer', to an experienced commander, means 'twerp will cast a spell and enemy will walk clean across, shredding you'	[02:11]
asciilifeform	this is what 25 yrs of winblowz did to the mind	[02:12]
asciilifeform	it'll be generations after a sane computer exists that this kind of thinking even gets a chance of drawing to a close.	[02:12]
decimation	also 'we need soldiers who can do that'	[02:12]
ben_vulpes	want a fucking WALL POSTER << codebase isn't that bad, should be doable by hand :P	[02:13]
asciilifeform	for contrast: i just finished a neat little book (ru) on early artillery	[02:13]
asciilifeform	early cannoneers accepted double-digit chances of being blown up by own barrel	[02:13]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: go, do	[02:13]
ben_vulpes	no, u	[02:13]
asciilifeform	then swear with your life that it's 100% covered	[02:13]
asciilifeform	'isn't that bad' l0l	[02:14]
ben_vulpes	heh	[02:14]
asciilifeform	decimation: re: 'round trip' ntp - you still are at the mercy of local clock's accuracy when computing the trip time	[02:16]
ben_vulpes	haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant << see also gitlab	[02:16]
asciilifeform	if your local clock is shit, i can still induce you to rely on it more, more	[02:16]
asciilifeform	and drift.	[02:16]
decimation	yes, true	[02:16]
ben_vulpes	vast quantities of braindamage.	[02:16]
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decimation	ultimately there's no substitute for good hardware	[02:17]
asciilifeform	i am trying - and apparently failing - to make the point that there is no such thing as 'good hardware' for finding out 'what time' it is on ~my~ atomic clock from across an ocean.	[02:17]
asciilifeform	just so happens that the universe is 'bad hardware' for that.	[02:17]
asciilifeform	even before you add a war	[02:18]
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decimation	and yet, even usg manages to keep orbital rb clocks ticking	[02:18]
ben_vulpes	phf: No, not yet. On OpenBSD I'm running an 0.7.2 derivative with LibreSSL 2.0 just to see how it behaves. << how's the libressl build going?	[02:18]
asciilifeform	decimation: timebases!	[02:18]
asciilifeform	not clocks	[02:18]
asciilifeform	try to grasp the difference	[02:18]
asciilifeform	and notice how easy it is to spoof'em	[02:19]
asciilifeform	the thing is a house of cards	[02:19]
decimation	if your point is that they are centrally disciplined that's probably true	[02:20]
asciilifeform	not only	[02:20]
asciilifeform	but defenseless against a kid with sdr card.	[02:20]
ben_vulpes	* williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation...	[02:20]
asciilifeform	chunk of meat in the desert, that flies have not found yet	[02:20]
decimation	at any rate, your objection to coordinating clocks seems to boil down to "can't carry messages of a known latency over spacetime"	[02:21]
decimation	how is this not the case?	[02:21]
asciilifeform	if we were in space war, could probably carry on with something like the naive notion of clocks	[02:22]
asciilifeform	limited only by sr, etc	[02:22]
asciilifeform	but we are not in space.	[02:22]
asciilifeform	but in a hell, with devils	[02:23]
asciilifeform	on every wire.	[02:23]
decimation	so your objection boils down to 'enemy controls means of communication'	[02:23]
asciilifeform	aha.	[02:23]
decimation	which is a reasonable point	[02:23]
decimation	but is applicable to the entire bitcoin enterprise equally	[02:23]
asciilifeform	it is not.	[02:23]
asciilifeform	because proof-of-work.	[02:23]
asciilifeform	i can tell a zero-diff block and so can you	[02:23]
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asciilifeform	some things cannot be faked.	[02:24]
asciilifeform	rsa also exists, and this prevents certain other spurious items	[02:24]
asciilifeform	but these do not add up to a trustworthy clock.	[02:24]
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decimation	this only emphasizes the point that there needs to be alternate communication media available	[02:25]
decimation	ionosphere will relay for free, cannot be pwned by usg	[02:25]
asciilifeform	most fundamental problem is that distributed clocks are infinitely sybilable.	[02:25]
asciilifeform	how the fuck do i know what is on the other end of ionosphere?	[02:25]
asciilifeform	man, or usg gnome ?	[02:25]
decimation	you just said, rsa can solve that problem	[02:25]
asciilifeform	only if i'm personally friends with fella who owns clock	[02:26]
decimation	indeed.	[02:26]
asciilifeform	and the wall time i want to know is specifically his	[02:26]
decimation	or he's in your wot somehow	[02:26]
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decimation	if 99% of miners use usg time, what's the use of wot-time?	[02:26]
asciilifeform	if 99% of miners use gavincoin and spv, what is the use of therealbitcoin ?	[02:27]
decimation	excellent question	[02:27]
asciilifeform	i suspect that mircea_popescu might answer that it is for the next set of miners	[02:27]
asciilifeform	after the current set gets ddt sprayed on them	[02:28]
asciilifeform	like all locusts deserve	[02:28]
decimation	the idea of a crypto-radio-clock intrigues me	[02:29]
decimation	I have a few sketches for such a thing, but I can't get around the problem of fixed keys that need to be distributed to listeners	[02:29]
asciilifeform	i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks.	[02:30]
asciilifeform	at least, clocks in the usual political sense.	[02:30]
decimation	that auto-scaling-difficulty thing seems crazy though	[02:30]
decimation	at least on a per-block basis	[02:30]
asciilifeform	it is clearly not the solution	[02:30]
asciilifeform	i linked to it to illustrate the sheer batshit	[02:30]
decimation	heh	[02:30]
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asciilifeform	the solution is to force the miners themselves into behaving like a pendulum with a period from which they, collectively, deviate at their peril.	[02:31]
asciilifeform	i promise to explain this later.	[02:31]
decimation	sounds like it would involve incrementing the protocol version	[02:31]
asciilifeform	it absolutely cannot work with classical bitcoin	[02:32]
decimation	but it is an interesting idea	[02:32]
asciilifeform	and thus i am not entirely sure who would find it interesting here, and why	[02:32]
BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: Still sync'd on BritneyChain	[02:32]
asciilifeform	basic idea involves 'left-handed' and 'right-handed' miners, with game-theoretical reward matrix of being one depending on the first derivative in the hashing power of the other.	[02:33]
asciilifeform	still trying to model this.	[02:33]
ben_vulpes	i think mircea_popescu designed something like that for eulora	[02:34]
asciilifeform	did he ?	[02:34]
asciilifeform	link ?	[02:34]
ben_vulpes	players vs. the game. conversation in ars.	[02:34]
asciilifeform	hm	[02:34]
asciilifeform	i suppose he can answer when reads log..	[02:34]
ben_vulpes	balancing of rewards for being mage/barbarian/etc over time	[02:35]
asciilifeform	essentially you want the entire network to have a 'resonant frequency'	[02:35]
asciilifeform	which can now be your timebase.	[02:35]
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asciilifeform	why settle for little quartz crystals	[02:36]
asciilifeform	when you can use a planet-sized resonator.	[02:36]
decimation	that reminds me of schumann resonances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schumann_resonances	[02:36]
assbot	Schumann resonances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1IIq0aS )	[02:36]
asciilifeform	decimation: i'm still waiting to read a non-batshit explanation of schumann	[02:37]
asciilifeform	(was also thinking of it earlier today)	[02:37]
decimation	hehe	[02:37]
decimation	it's lightning sprites and earthquakes	[02:37]
decimation	actually I suspect the solar wind buffeting the magnetosphere is a factor	[02:37]
asciilifeform	what i meant was, i'd like to see a rational calculation of why the freq.	[02:38]
asciilifeform	until then, it's voodo	[02:38]
decimation	this crazy czech runs a vaccum-pendulum radio clock http://ok0epb.nagano.cz/index.php?page=Main+page/	[02:39]
assbot	Main page - OK0EPB - 7 039,4 kHz ... ( http://bit.ly/1IIqgXm )	[02:39]
asciilifeform	state-of-the-art till the '50s iirc	[02:39]
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ag3nt_zer0	!rate trinque 1 very helpful to noob	[03:25]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/c39f0df9608c7058	[03:25]
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ag3nt_zer0	!rate shinohai 1 great help to noob	[03:26]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/49ae2cc4cb75f970	[03:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84300 @ 0.00054193 = 45.6847 BTC [-] {4}	[03:27]
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trinque	ag3nt_zer0: thanks guy	[03:37]
trinque	ben_vulpes: so pipelinedb turned out to be YC shitware	[03:37]
trinque	http://www.pipelinedb.com/	[03:37]
assbot	PipelineDB—The Streaming SQL Database ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjMpkj )	[03:37]
trinque	all they did can be done with triggers, background workers and materialized views	[03:38]
trinque	and they had the nerve to RENAME POSTGRESQL TO SOMETHING ELSE	[03:38]
trinque	meanwhile they did not do the one thing that might've been interesting (that I can see), which would've been to fire pg_notify events when the results of a given view change	[03:40]
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punkman	http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-08/china-trade-halts-hit-2-2-trillion-as-state-intervention-fails	[04:03]
assbot	China Stock Sellers Frozen Out of 71% of Market - Bloomberg Business ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjP4KO )	[04:03]
punkman	"The eurozone has given Greece until Thursday to present new proposals to secure a deal with creditors, and has called a full EU summit for Sunday."	[04:08]
mircea_popescu	yep, it's the end of the world.	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	after this unwinds 1929 will look like glbse by comparison.	[04:19]
punkman	I'll stock up on Tetris http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27846-tetris-blocks-traumatic-flashbacks-even-after-the-memory-is-fixed.html	[04:19]
assbot	Tetris blocks traumatic flashbacks even after the memory is fixed - health - 06 July 2015 - New Scientist ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjR4mf )	[04:19]
punkman	lots of greek banks in the balkans, I wonder what's gonna happen with those	[04:24]
punkman	http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e2a57c5e809f4da3a46aa7c1ba94bf10/exposed-greek-banks-balkans-brace-trouble	[04:27]
assbot	Exposed to Greek banks, Balkans brace for trouble ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjRY22 )	[04:27]
mircea_popescu	PatentChina 1 hour ago	[04:29]
mircea_popescu	imagine what will happen if month later no china crash is seen? but USA has advantage that it will never feel shame. one lie does not come true, there is another one. and in the end they can still say china has hacked usa without any evidences. Repeating lies 1000 times, it becomes truth. that is how USA invaded Iraq.	[04:29]
mircea_popescu	lol	[04:29]
mircea_popescu	anyway, hopefully they manage to prop it, because if they do not and people start unwinding us holdings on the grounds of the massive yuan profits to be thus made, that's that.	[04:31]
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mircea_popescu	!up ValentinJesse	[04:34]
-assbot-	You voiced ValentinJesse for 30 minutes.	[04:34]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[12:47]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[12:47]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[12:47]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[12:47]
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*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[12:48]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform why would they fire anyone ?	[12:48]
mircea_popescu	they're lucky anyone at all wants to work for them as it is.	[12:48]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193020 << sure, this is a fact.	[12:51]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 05:09:39; asciilifeform: early cannoneers accepted double-digit chances of being blown up by own barrel	[12:51]
shinohai	heh: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806720	[12:52]
danielpbarron	jurov> danielpbarron: you tried to feed it to 0.5.3.1 << is it possible? when I type 'bitcoind help' I do not see the "send raw signed transaction" command	[12:52]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193059 << myeah.	[12:53]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 05:19:44; asciilifeform: it is not.	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron iirc asciilifeform made a patch	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	o nm that was fpr whole blocks	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193066 << i would not bet on that.	[12:54]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 05:21:24; decimation: ionosphere will relay for free, cannot be pwned by usg	[12:54]
mircea_popescu	nah jurov i recall people using their own tools for that throughout	[12:54]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193079 << miners have no identity.	[12:55]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 05:24:07; asciilifeform: after the current set gets ddt sprayed on them	[12:55]
mircea_popescu	they are the exact equivalent of materiel. the humvees the usg lost to isis work for isis just as well.	[12:55]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193083 << this is rank nonsense. to be money it will have to handle time.	[12:57]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 05:26:05; asciilifeform: i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks.	[12:57]
danielpbarron	> bitcoind: Argument list too long << my 0.7.2 node didn't like it	[12:57]
mircea_popescu	what you're saying is basically "i'm more interested in food that doesn't rely on being digested"	[12:57]
danielpbarron	i don't think it's even checking the validity of the tx, and is instead rejecting the hex string as being too long; I can get my 0.5.3 node to give the same error and it doesn't recognize the method	[13:01]
mircea_popescu	lol 0.7 implemented tx manipulation that doesn't work on 1mb sized txn ?	[13:02]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193153 << better than the queen gets.	[13:07]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 09:00:25; cazalla: good logs, good meal, no good wine to go with it but 2/3 ain't bad eh	[13:07]
jurov	danielpbarron i tried electrum, it parsed tx properly	[13:08]
jurov	but broadcast error: {u'message': u'64: tx-size', u'code': -26}	[13:08]
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williamdunne	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193046 << nah, I wasn't the one being asphyxiated, and the marks are not the result of it	[13:10]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 05:16:27; ben_vulpes: * williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation...	[13:10]
gabriel_laddel	it's okay, no one here will judge you :p	[13:12]
*	williamdunne pondering on confessing to my skat fetish	[13:13]
gabriel_laddel	;; ud skat	[13:13]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=skat \| skat. taking a shit in someones mouth and having them eat it. I love getting a big load of skat in my mouth its so good. by skat eater September 20, 2003. 419 333.	[13:13]
mircea_popescu	o.o	[13:13]
mircea_popescu	;;google scatman	[13:13]
gribble	THE SCATMAN - Scatman John HD1080p - YouTube: ; Scatman (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-bop) Official Video HD -Scatman John ...: ; Scatman John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:	[13:13]
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williamdunne	http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/07/us-usa-crime-childporn-idUSKCN0PH24C20150707	[13:22]
williamdunne	North	[13:22]
williamdunne	Carolina	[13:22]
assbot	FBI seized child porn website with 215,000 users: court filing	[13:23]
williamdunne	Server	[13:23]
gabriel_laddel	what are cat cables and how do I network computers together without a web browser.	[13:26]
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williamdunne	You've got to connect the CAT 3 BSD cable into your Universal Parallel Networking port and install the latest ApacheBSD drivers, and then BGP route your HardDrive into the global local network, repeating these steps for each computer on the network. And once this is complete you plug cables into each of your available body holes and pray for IP issuance, prior to jamming each cable into your nearest USB hub	[13:29]
jurov	that reads like eulora recipes	[13:30]
gabriel_laddel	oh, sorry, I should have made it clear I was referring to the child pornography thing	[13:31]
*	assbot gives voice to gernika	[13:31]
williamdunne	jurov: Well, I'm employable	[13:32]
gernika	mod6 I've attempted syncing on OpenBSD again and am now past block 168000 and have reached 185126. It's going very very slowly though.	[13:33]
*	_biO_ (~biO_@ip-37-24-195-112.hsi14.unitymediagroup.de) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:33]
gabriel_laddel	!up _biO_	[13:33]
*	assbot gives voice to _biO_	[13:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00057258 = 15.5169 BTC [+]	[13:34]
ben_vulpes	buenos dias	[13:35]
gabriel_laddel	hola	[13:35]
gabriel_laddel	como estas?	[13:36]
ben_vulpes	muy bien	[13:36]
ben_vulpes	¿y tu, comrade?	[13:36]
*	DanielBTC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[13:36]
gabriel_laddel	fenomenal	[13:37]
ben_vulpes	¿de veras? ¿porque?	[13:37]
mircea_popescu	companero ? compadre ?	[13:37]
ben_vulpes	'twas a sovietism	[13:38]
gabriel_laddel	Aterricé un trabajo	[13:38]
gabriel_laddel	writing CL + mcclim	[13:38]
mircea_popescu	the sovietism is tovarash	[13:38]
gabriel_laddel	go me	[13:38]
ben_vulpes	oh fuck you srsly	[13:39]
mircea_popescu	the world is not my fault!	[13:39]
ben_vulpes	not you, gabriel_laddel	[13:39]
mircea_popescu	olol	[13:39]
ben_vulpes	gabriel_laddel: let me tell you of the salt mines of my homeworld...	[13:40]
mod6	<+gernika> mod6 I've attempted syncing on OpenBSD again and am now past block 168000 and have reached 185126. It's going very very slowly though. << good to hear though	[13:40]
gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes: go on ahead	[13:40]
ben_vulpes	there is a SaaS that handles users for people who for whatever reason don't want to stand up their own services and servers.	[13:40]
ben_vulpes	developers working with this service can alter its behavior by providing it 'node' code that it executes on login/registration events	[13:40]
ben_vulpes	their sandbox provides precisely one map of dummy data.	[13:41]
*	hdbuck (~hdbuck@APuteaux-651-1-38-128.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:41]
*	hdbuck has quit (Changing host)	[13:41]
*	hdbuck (~hdbuck@unaffiliated/hdbuck) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:41]
ben_vulpes	it is not configurable in any way.	[13:41]
ben_vulpes	the suggested way to cram code into their orifices is by pasting it into text fields.	[13:41]
ben_vulpes	one can configure post-commit hooks in git, but their logic importer a) only works with github and b) only works with public repositories.	[13:41]
gabriel_laddel	...	[13:42]
ben_vulpes	now on one hand that this thing doesn't give programmers any handles to alter test data is fine, in that it forces one to either work in a js repl or you know /actually write tests/	[13:42]
ben_vulpes	otoh	[13:42]
ben_vulpes	braindamage.	[13:42]
ben_vulpes	anyways i don't believe you nobody gets paid to write common lisp lalala i can't hear you	[13:43]
gabriel_laddel	I suggest you don't contemplate the loper device.	[13:43]
gabriel_laddel	it might be a danger to your health	[13:43]
ben_vulpes	you say that as though there were an option.	[13:43]
*	hdbuck has quit (Client Quit)	[13:44]
jurov	i daresay loper machine depends on solved halting problem	[13:49]
mod6	359k+	[13:49]
gabriel_laddel	jurov: how so?	[13:49]
gabriel_laddel	jurov: the routing can't be that difficult	[13:49]
*	DanielBTC (~DanielBTC@187.56.52.139) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:49]
jurov	it's supposed to predict resources exhaustion at any time so that operator can be alerted	[13:49]
*	DreadKnight has quit (Quit: #AncientBeast - Master Your Beasts ( www.AncientBeast.com ))	[13:49]
gabriel_laddel	jurov: No it isn't. It just eats all required resources and (maybe) returns.	[13:50]
gabriel_laddel	(I think)	[13:50]
gabriel_laddel	What happens if I (loop while t do ...) on a von n. arch? it just runs forever. Same thing.	[13:51]
gabriel_laddel	Don't do that.	[13:51]
gabriel_laddel	Now, I think the "language constructs" map directly to routing logic, so the AST "unrolls" onto the hardware	[13:52]
gabriel_laddel	but I've not sat down to work it out	[13:52]
williamdunne	Lol	[13:52]
williamdunne	One of the "lizardsquad" guys just got charged with 50,700 offences	[13:52]
jurov	if i learned anything from my haskell stint, it's how computer is utterly bad to manage its memory and other resources	[13:53]
jurov	even if you specify in most precise detail how to do stuff without side effects, you still have to hold its hand in order to not exhaust the memory	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	it's supposed to predict resources exhaustion at any time so that operator can be alerted << in principle machine does not have to proceed before it wants to.	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	i am sure gabriel_laddel proposed "don't do that" won' cut it with alf - but i am also sure a "sometimes warn before" behaviour would be acceptable.	[13:55]
*	decimation (~decimatio@unaffiliated/decimation) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:55]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.157 = 1.099 BTC [-] {2}	[13:59]
*	ascii_field (~ascii_fie@66-162-3-25.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:59]
asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[14:00]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[14:00]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193223 << there are not so many of these.	[14:01]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 15:44:41; mircea_popescu: they're lucky anyone at all wants to work for them as it is.	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	ahahaha wut ?	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	dude get out, they're the website of 2015. every two bit 20something schmuck with two friends and a girlfriend has started one, last year.	[14:01]
ascii_field	places for folks to write malware and get serious clean money for it	[14:02]
mircea_popescu	there is at least one million of them. i have stopped even trying to count past 100k last year.	[14:02]
ascii_field	SERIOUS money	[14:02]
mircea_popescu	get out	[14:02]
mircea_popescu	they never saw even a decent salary.	[14:02]
ascii_field	not 'work 12 hours to make min wage while you sleep'	[14:02]
mircea_popescu	this recently raped one made less than gawker.	[14:02]
ascii_field	cut how many ways ?	[14:03]
ascii_field	(i assume the truth lies somewhere in those 500 GB...)	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	the boys made slightly more than they'd have made working for gawker, on the grounds that they're asocial weirdos.	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	the girls made about the same.	[14:03]
ascii_field	there were girls ?!!	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	we're not talking enough to be middle class here.	[14:04]
*	assbot removes voice from _biO_	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[14:04]
ascii_field	where ?	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	guy's gf.	[14:04]
ascii_field	didn't see any obvious ones in the 'git' login config	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	right.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	someone did the accounting and the sucking sudanese cock you know.	[14:04]
ascii_field	aha	[14:05]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.157 = 1.413 BTC [-] {2}	[14:05]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193239 << 'handle time' != 'use customary electronic clocks'	[14:05]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 15:53:13; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193083 << this is rank nonsense. to be money it will have to handle time.	[14:05]
mircea_popescu	granted	[14:05]
mircea_popescu	but you're not taking time out of it.	[14:05]
ascii_field	time is in.	[14:05]
mircea_popescu	aite.	[14:05]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193275 << compadre	[14:07]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 16:32:33; ben_vulpes: ¿y tu, comrade?	[14:07]
*	ascii_field buys ben_vulpes dictionary	[14:07]
mircea_popescu	anyway, this is what powers my disinterest in the matter. i saw in logs this pov is divergent with teh republic, so i'll entertain the alternative viewpoint, but just for the sake of records.	[14:08]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: which ?	[14:08]
scoopbot_revived	The situation of Greece http://trilema.com/2015/the-situation-of-greece/	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field re the "yet another bedroom derpitude" thread just before.	[14:09]
ascii_field	the clocks?	[14:09]
ascii_field	'hackteam' ?	[14:10]
ascii_field	which derpitude ?	[14:10]
ascii_field	jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193305 << if at some point i proposed a thing that requires 'solved halting problem' please say!	[14:10]
mircea_popescu	hackteam	[14:10]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 16:45:07; jurov: i daresay loper machine depends on solved halting problem	[14:10]
mircea_popescu	o look at teh nyse btw.	[14:11]
ascii_field	http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806720 << lulz	[14:11]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1Hh3uAu )	[14:11]
ascii_field	Run Moar Winblowz!!!	[14:11]
*	menahem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[14:12]
mod6	trades haulted, no suprise there.	[14:12]
mod6	*halted	[14:12]
williamdunne	I wonder if any sysadmins are gonna jump out of some windows	[14:12]
mod6	next, like .cn, selling banned	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	mod6 "our free market is this thing you can only buy!!1"	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	bwahaha	[14:12]
*	joecool has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	and this is somehow ~not a scam~	[14:13]
mod6	right	[14:13]
mircea_popescu	then they want to "regulate" biutcoin	[14:13]
mircea_popescu	make it more like the fiat ponzi system	[14:13]
mircea_popescu	the gall.	[14:13]
mod6	srsly.	[14:13]
*	assbot gives voice to decimation	[14:13]
gabriel_laddel	!b 10	[14:14]
assbot	Last 10 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3263M1Y.txt )	[14:14]
ascii_field	i fully expected this after hearing the cn thing	[14:14]
decimation	they totally know it's not a 'cyber attack'	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	anyway, they had no choice.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	chinese decided to unwind	[14:14]
ascii_field	raise yer hand if you thought ft meade would leave nyse switched on	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	nah was not possibru.	[14:14]
decimation	ft meade does what wall st wants, not vice versa	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	really a distinction without a difference	[14:15]
davout	so i'm trying to build the stator, getting "headers.h:21:27: fatal error: openssl/ecdsa.h: No such file or directory"	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	does liver do what spleen wants or spleen, liver	[14:15]
williamdunne	Chinese dumping US stocks now, I'm presuming. Need to pump some filthy fiat into their own markets	[14:15]
ascii_field	davout: your openssl did not build	[14:15]
ascii_field	davout: did you have the tarballs in place ?	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	also make sure you build the right one	[14:15]
ascii_field	there is a MANIFEST	[14:16]
davout	i have openssl-1.0.1g.tar.gz in distfiles	[14:16]
decimation	check the hashes plus sigs	[14:16]
mircea_popescu	that one yea	[14:16]
davout	(using mod6's build script)	[14:16]
ascii_field	^^^^ ~that~'s why doesn't work	[14:16]
ascii_field	his scripts never worked for me	[14:16]
mod6	you need to use "stator.sh" that comes with the stator tarball	[14:16]
decimation	you probably have the 'realpath' issue	[14:16]
decimation	which is because debian is fucktarded	[14:16]
mod6	this too ^^	[14:16]
davout	ok, i'll do this, thank yall!	[14:16]
mircea_popescu	a could be	[14:16]
mod6	davout: what os?	[14:17]
davout	gentoo	[14:17]
mircea_popescu	tech support at its best is keeping a list of who's fucktarded.	[14:17]
mod6	yeah, that auto.sh has problems there.	[14:17]
mircea_popescu	sad state of affairs.	[14:17]
ascii_field	davout: for now, skip the auto.sh and use my scripts	[14:17]
ascii_field	very short and simple to grasp	[14:17]
ascii_field	and pretty much guaranteed to work on gentoo	[14:18]
decimation	just be sure to check the distfile hashes	[14:18]
mircea_popescu	in other news, http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzevzzvPKk1rovqsto1_500.gif	[14:18]
decimation	don't grab the wrong ones	[14:18]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1CoVT6S )	[14:18]
ascii_field	aha. this is not automated in mine	[14:18]
davout	ok	[14:18]
davout	where's the stator tarball?	[14:18]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: brilliant. ought to be installed in every american gym	[14:18]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: For some reason she looks like a giant	[14:18]
mod6	davout: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-June/000102.html	[14:19]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1CoW4z5 )	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	low camera williamdunne	[14:19]
*	williamdunne was a terrible art student	[14:19]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: you're right	[14:19]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: let's have the finale of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193367 ?	[14:20]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 17:07:03; mircea_popescu: hackteam	[14:20]
mircea_popescu	generally the difference between advertising set and porn set is that porn set cameras all set crotch height	[14:20]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field what's more to say ?	[14:20]
mod6	grab those, verify, unpack; beware that you need to drop openssl/bdb/boost in distfiles by hand. and ascii_field's script doesn't want boost.tar.gz, wants boost.tar.bz	[14:20]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: no, it isn't 'greatest leak ever' - but certainly the most complete gutting of a usg contractor in history	[14:21]
mod6	follow this: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/stator-buildlog-wDumpBlockAndEatBlockApplied.txt	[14:21]
ascii_field	everything but the ashtray	[14:21]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1FYJMZi )	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	no argument.	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	you will notice it is not actually a usg contractor. it's a sudanese contractor.	[14:21]
williamdunne	These "decentralize all the things" fuckwads are really pissing me off re: NYSE	[14:21]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: usg was a major client	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	the difference between this and an "etsy shop" is color scheme.	[14:22]
ascii_field	and of course it was the крыша	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	i dunno, seems more like it was a major alleged client.	[14:22]
ascii_field	picture what would happen if ~i~ tried to open a 'hackteam'	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	dunno how much you know about how teenaged girls suck cock these days	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	but the way it goes, they pretend to be selling to X so Y may buy	[14:22]
ascii_field	about as much as i know of penguins	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field nobody would even notice.	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	it's all in your head.	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	i bet half of your coworkers are "secretly" part of one.	[14:23]
mircea_popescu	it truely is the band of 2015.	[14:23]
ascii_field	l0l	[14:23]
mircea_popescu	i kid you not. but i do not expect anyone to take this on faith.	[14:23]
ascii_field	fact is, monetizing virii requires a крыша	[14:23]
mircea_popescu	dude...	[14:23]
ascii_field	no srsly	[14:24]
ascii_field	unlike penguin and gurlz, i know this from direct observation	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	are you even from this planet at ALL ? do you know how much can be passed off as work before even as much as touching a tool ?	[14:24]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Some are pretty enthusiastic about it	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	yes, playing in a band requires a guitar.	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	so ? got any sticks ?	[14:24]
ascii_field	music with no ears.	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	every kid in a barage gand in 1955 had ear ?	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	what ear. they're americans.	[14:25]
ascii_field	anybody can write turdware, yes	[14:25]
ascii_field	i am speaking of ~money~	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	also all in your head.	[14:25]
williamdunne	https://twitter.com/cgledhill/status/618830161144901632	[14:25]
williamdunne	People must care because SJWs signed a petition, wao	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	these particular kids would have made more scamming in eve	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	but hey.	[14:25]
williamdunne	#1 fintech influencer supposedly	[14:25]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: from what i can tell, the 'hackteam' folks were paid hundreds of thousands of euros to do things that i consider a weekend's work	[14:26]
ascii_field	this is called 'crown concession'	[14:26]
mircea_popescu	start one then.	[14:26]
ascii_field	l0l	[14:27]
mircea_popescu	all you need is the girlie to suck sudan cock.	[14:27]
mircea_popescu	ask on craigslist	[14:27]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2015#1002367	[14:27]
assbot	Logged on 02-02-2015 07:04:28; asciilifeform: dude really, it is very easy to fly. just bend your arms into an effective lift surface, right angle of attack, and fart really hard.	[14:27]
mircea_popescu	ask.on.craigslist.	[14:27]
*	ascii_field utterly fails to grasp what mircea_popescu is speaking of	[14:28]
mircea_popescu	say "Very gifted reverse engineer, looking for outgoing, persuasive, experienced slut to start hackteam together. You'll have to suck bureaucrat cock to get us contracts, I'll fill them, we split the loot."	[14:28]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: guess where i'm posting from	[14:29]
ascii_field	it doesn't work unless you have access to the right cock	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	the congress library	[14:29]
ascii_field	and we - thus far - don't.	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	eh get outta here.	[14:29]
ascii_field	srsly	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	that's HER job.	[14:29]
ascii_field	despite, for instance, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=25-06-2015#1175261	[14:29]
assbot	Logged on 25-06-2015 03:01:25; asciilifeform: i built it.	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	pack her off to whatever, sierra leone	[14:29]
ascii_field	we don't have any gurlz though	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	sucks to be us.	[14:30]
thestringpuller	i think the network just forked again	[14:30]
ascii_field	thing i'm beginning to suspect is that nobody gives half a shit about reversing, or 'security', or any of it	[14:30]
ascii_field	but only launders usg money	[14:30]
ascii_field	with pre-selected butt buddies	[14:30]
gabriel_laddel	^	[14:30]
mircea_popescu	the first part is right.	[14:31]
ascii_field	ph0rk!	[14:31]
mircea_popescu	mmyeah.	[14:31]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[14:31]
asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[14:31]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[14:31]
mircea_popescu	and ima go play eulora in celebration.	[14:33]
*	joshbuddy (~josh@wikimedia/Joshbuddy) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:40]
*	menahem (~menahem@unaffiliated/menahem) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:42]
ascii_field	unph0rk3d ?	[14:45]
ascii_field	aaaand https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000024d5e8b9010d61d93550bfd022a5d8f613f7daa620456f8 l0l	[14:45]
assbot	Bitcoin Block #364437 ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp22jF )	[14:45]
williamdunne	It's okay guyz, NYSE is turning itself off and on again	[14:45]
jurov	nyse mining bitcoins?	[14:46]
williamdunne	Yeah, they've got some celerons on the job	[14:51]
*	shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[14:58]
*	bounce has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[14:59]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[15:02]
gabriel_laddel	!up ascii_field	[15:02]
gabriel_laddel	http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/	[15:02]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[15:02]
assbot	Project IceStorm ... ( http://bit.ly/1BKXug8 )	[15:02]
gabriel_laddel	^ some people reverse engineered an fpga's bitstream format	[15:03]
gabriel_laddel	*a fpga...	[15:03]
ascii_field	'We have enough bits mapped that we can create a functional verilog model for almost all bitstreams generated by Lattice iCEcube2 for the iCE40 HX1K-TQ144, as long as no block memories or PLLs are used. ' << wake me up when that last part changes. and when i can get this chip from ten different chinese foundries.	[15:03]
ascii_field	this all happened before, with xilinx	[15:04]
ascii_field	and we know how it ends.	[15:04]
ascii_field	'Next on the TODO list: PLLs, Timing Analysis...' << ahahahahahaha	[15:05]
ascii_field	try synthesizing ~anything~ of any serious complexity without exact timing data for ~every piece of shit on the die~	[15:05]
ascii_field	i gotta take my hat off to these folks for sheer effort, but the fact remains that they are scooping out the sea with the proverbial thimble.	[15:06]
gabriel_laddel	To any "hackers" reading the logs - rather than going after hackteam, try xilinx, lattice semiconductor next time?	[15:09]
ascii_field	('how it ends,' for the uninitiated, is that some time around when these fine folks are about half done, the chip will go out of print. and be replaced by an entirely incompatible one.)	[15:09]
ascii_field	gabriel_laddel: this doesn't help either. no one can force them to keep making the 'doxxed' chip.	[15:10]
ascii_field	a 'doxxed' fpga is entirely useless if you can't get it!	[15:10]
gabriel_laddel	ascii_field: imho this is going to be a slow process of ad-hoc reverse engineering of a design, finding chiacom manufactures...	[15:11]
ascii_field	it is, after all, a physical object.	[15:11]
gabriel_laddel	someone needs to carry the water.	[15:11]
ascii_field	gabriel_laddel: there is no mass market for these.	[15:11]
ascii_field	we had this thread before.	[15:11]
gabriel_laddel	!s bribery	[15:11]
assbot	9 results for 'bribery' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bribery	[15:11]
ascii_field	not bribery as such, just that you'd have to pay the fab up front, cash on the barrel	[15:11]
ascii_field	to have any made.	[15:11]
ascii_field	not a bribe, but straightforward commerce	[15:12]
ascii_field	gabriel_laddel: another detail that must be understood is that reversing for the purpose of programming is a very different animal from reversing for the purpose of rebuilding.	[15:13]
ascii_field	in the case of the latter, it is necessary to have a ~complete~ picture of the vital organs	[15:14]
ascii_field	including aspects that a programmer doesn't give a flying fuck about, like chemistry	[15:14]
ascii_field	and in-circuit testing	[15:14]
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gabriel_laddel	Unrelated: Uncle Al's disqus profile. It is a treat. https://disqus.com/by/Xemist/	[15:18]
assbot	Disqus Profile - Xemist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp6BdM )	[15:18]
ascii_field	gabriel_laddel: good to see that he's still kicking, somewhere	[15:18]
gabriel_laddel	Orange County iirc?	[15:19]
ascii_field	gabriel_laddel: i suspected he might have 'went perelman'	[15:19]
williamdunne	gabriel_laddel: About 12 months ago I was tasked with checking the security of a fiat institution. Within three hours I had found two different bugs to send money from accounts that weren't mine, and two different bugs to view all account details that weren't mine, and another to see all transaction details that weren't mine.	[15:19]
gabriel_laddel	williamdunne: !	[15:20]
williamdunne	IKR, the operator was a friend of mine, but he was very concerned when I sent him the details for a large transaction from themselves to a law firm they employ	[15:21]
gabriel_laddel	Speaking of Uncle Al - not only did the 'gentlemen' at the eot wash group modify their URL scheme so that his links appear "dead", but Stanford has also moved the single link in qz4.html	[15:21]
ascii_field	williamdunne: and that was when he put out your eyes and cut out your tongue ?	[15:22]
ascii_field	gabriel_laddel: big fat surprise	[15:22]
gabriel_laddel	lol check this out	[15:22]
gabriel_laddel	http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/sites/www.npl.washington.edu.eotwash/files/webfiles/publications/pdfs/lowfrontier2.pdf	[15:22]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp7fb7 )	[15:22]
williamdunne	ascii_field: not quite, although I do regret agreeing to do it pro-bono	[15:22]
gabriel_laddel	^ new url scheme vs.	[15:22]
gabriel_laddel	http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/publications/pdf/lowfrontier2.pdf	[15:22]
assbot	Page not found \| The Eöt-Wash Group ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp7hj7 )	[15:22]
gabriel_laddel	williamdunne: so you're the guy who makes the spice flow?	[15:24]
gabriel_laddel	what exactly do you do?	[15:24]
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williamdunne	Hard to pin that one down	[15:25]
gabriel_laddel	doya have a cv or the like?	[15:25]
ascii_field	https://disqus.com/home/discussion/neuroskeptic/the_strange_world_of_8220reward_deficiency_syndrome8221_part_2/#comment-2118094177	[15:25]
assbot	Disqus - The Strange World of “Reward Deficiency Syndrome” (Part 2) ... ( http://bit.ly/1TlSFWh )	[15:25]
ascii_field	many lulz	[15:25]
ascii_field	'Be homicidally depressed and aim at the top. That is like voting, except the count is honest and meaningful.'	[15:26]
gabriel_laddel	ahahaha	[15:26]
williamdunne	I've never received a job by anything but reference. First job when I was 14 was a game programmer, second job when 15 was working at a military intelligence company in London doing some infosec and accounting type stuff. Lots of freelancing stuff	[15:26]
williamdunne	Security, programming, pretty much anything with a keyboard	[15:26]
williamdunne	Recently did some stuff for the BitFinex guys, that wasn't much fun but y'know. Pays for stuff. Think I'll have more with them in future	[15:28]
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gabriel_laddel	!up ascii_field	[15:33]
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williamdunne	What happened to that German socialist girl, she ever come back to continue her derping?	[15:36]
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ascii_field	http://polymatharchives.blogspot.in/2015/01/the-inappropriately-excluded.html << l0ltr0n1c	[15:48]
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assbot	The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded ... ( http://bit.ly/1TlVir1 )	[15:48]
gabriel_laddel	"The antidote to national social and financial collapse is war. War clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of social and economic realities. It rewards the creative, productive, and effective. It reduces redundant populations. North Korea, India, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia (paid for Paki research, repaid by Paki nukes) stare down some 1000 exceptionally well-crafted and deliverable Israeli thermonukes.	[15:53]
gabriel_laddel	Fukishima effluent on California's coast chews up the food chain to seals. 39 million person California, tremendously government subsidized, is collapsed. Its unsecured debt is the Saudi GNP while its $45 billion/year agriculture Central Valley has returned to desert, unemploying a million Mexican slaves with nowhere to go. Let's run the Battle of the Somme again, and soon. The jet stream dips south in autumn." (fr	[15:53]
gabriel_laddel	om Uncle Al)	[15:53]
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trinque	war doesn't really reduce redundant population	[15:57]
trinque	bounces right back after the war, if there's a dip at all	[15:57]
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mats	uh	[16:02]
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asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[16:06]
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ascii_field	'If you want to end ISIS, teach it game theory and casebooks. "They['ll] get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do," and lose.' (from the al schwartz link earlier)	[16:06]
trinque	mats: I am not finding a good graph of the russian population per year, yet I recall ww2 being a temporary blip downward that was rapidly recovered	[16:08]
trinque	and they sustained huge casualties	[16:08]
mats	the specific claim being made is 'redundant populations'	[16:14]
mats	how do we evaluate this claim	[16:14]
trinque	there'd have to be some correlation between an indicator of this redundancy before the war and which soldiers died	[16:17]
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trinque	"unskilled laborers died more often than ..." << maybe something like that	[16:18]
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ascii_field	'12 years public school, 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, 4 years post-doc. You are now over 30, deeply in debt, and starting life. Your idiot high school classmate who held a STOP sign at a construction site has been pulling $80K/year, has a fine home, wife, three kids, and a motor boat. His eldest son rakes in $850K/year tax-free facilitating recreational pharmaceuticals and an escort service.' << schwartz	[16:21]
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trinque	mats: but then even if the stupid tend to die more often, it could still be so that the stupid back home fuck enough to replenish stocks	[16:22]
mats	ain't social science great	[16:24]
ascii_field	trinque: intelligence doesn't breed true. (stupidity, however, does. this confuses folks)	[16:25]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.00057258 = 8.5314 BTC [+]	[16:30]
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trinque	ascii_field: I don't follow	[16:34]
trinque	ah that intelligence is not necessarily passed down genetically?	[16:34]
trinque	definitely not	[16:34]
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trinque	!up ascii_field	[16:36]
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ascii_field	trinque: also most folks who idly ponder the subject end up conflating several distinct things under 'intelligence'	[16:37]
ascii_field	far more interesting is the trait hasn eysenck called 'psychoticism'	[16:38]
ascii_field	which is the thing without which arbitrarily strong 'intelligence' ends up a chinese exam taker	[16:38]
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ascii_field	interestingly, old norse, even, had a very specific word for this trait	[16:39]
*	ascii_field does not have the link with him. if anyone recalls the answer, do chime in	[16:39]
trinque	old norse probably had an honorable term for the thing	[16:40]
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trinque	ascii_field: something like the combination of dominance and being a social supernode?	[16:41]
ascii_field	no.	[16:41]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu chronically links the two, but they are entirely independent	[16:42]
ascii_field	one can have one coming out of ears and arse, and lack the other entirely	[16:42]
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ascii_field	specifically, you can have arbitrarily high 'psychoticism' in the sense of being perelman and no 'dominance' or 'social supernode' to speak of.	[16:43]
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trinque	ascii_field: then is it a measure of the willingness to fight other people?	[16:47]
ascii_field	again no	[16:47]
ascii_field	if you must reduce it to a soundbite - it is just a measure of the quality of the rng in your head	[16:47]
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ascii_field	nothing to do with relating to other people.	[16:48]
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trinque	ascii_field: I am promting you to define the term instead of merely restating it	[16:48]
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trinque	I do not follow that definition either	[16:48]
ascii_field	trinque: i am certain that, just like everyone else here, you have met both kinds of 'intelligence'	[16:49]
ascii_field	i.e. 'champion at exams' vs the other kind.	[16:49]
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trinque	sure, and the former is deeply embedded in a group concept of what he ought to be doing	[16:49]
trinque	and the latter has his own idea	[16:49]
ascii_field	what makes the exam champ the waste of oxygen that he is ?	[16:49]
trinque	general obedience is what I see	[16:51]
jurov	!up jborkl	[16:51]
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trinque	ascii_field: by good RNG do you mean that they are capable of novel thoughts?	[16:53]
trinque	rather, that they have a greater capacity for ...	[16:53]
jborkl	The way it has been before, not all nodes have the same amount of txns in mempool - I never got enough of a explanation to discuss it	[16:54]
jborkl	mine has 32000 currently and blockchain has 21000	[16:54]
ascii_field	trinque: capable+inclined	[16:54]
trinque	then yes, I see your point	[16:54]
ascii_field	the 'capable' part is definitely key. who hasn't met his fair share of hack writers, for instance, poor schmucks grasping desperately for one singe original idea? and never finding it	[16:55]
jurov	jborkl: maybe different antispam rules	[16:55]
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trinque	ascii_field: haha, my former bosses for instance	[16:56]
jborkl	possible, there are a ton of waiting txns either way and the spike has been recently	[16:57]
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jborkl	although I have just been watching from the sideline for a long time (not active)	[16:57]
trinque	ascii_field: it would make a great deal of sense to me if there were a connection between this kind of intelligence and personality traits which cause him to have a much lower default level of regard for any particular human off the street.	[16:58]
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trinque	if he in fact has the capability, then the empathy which might cause him to accept someone else's perspective instead would only be a hindrance	[16:59]
trinque	and if he doesn't, you get http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist1/norton.html	[17:00]
assbot	Norton I, Emperor of the United	[17:00]
ascii_field	trinque: bad example. norton was popular.	[17:01]
ascii_field	a true social butterfly, even.	[17:01]
trinque	hah oh, my mistake	[17:01]
trinque	maybe someone that secretly collects human skin furniture then	[17:02]
ascii_field	do you collect dead ants ?	[17:02]
ascii_field	or kill ants for sport ?	[17:03]
*	trinque can see he will never earn the honorific "the Terrible"	[17:03]
ascii_field	true Not Giving A Fuck doesn't have a plus or minus sign. it's just a big fat zero.	[17:04]
trinque	ah	[17:04]
decimation	re: stupid breeding true < I thought 'reversion to the population mean' was the general outcome	[17:05]
ascii_field	aha	[17:05]
ascii_field	and stupidity is perfectly normal	[17:05]
decimation	I suppose tragically stupid parents are likely to have slightly smarter children	[17:06]
decimation	but not many worry about that case	[17:06]
ascii_field	not speaking here of extreme deformities	[17:06]
ascii_field	extra chromosomes, etc	[17:06]
decimation	right	[17:06]
ascii_field	just the factory-standard mind	[17:06]
decimation	but two iq 90 parents are likely to have children that score a little closer to 100	[17:06]
decimation	(for whites in the us)	[17:06]
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decimation	who would be lost in the unwashed 1st std deviation anyway	[17:07]
lobbes	!up ascii_field	[17:07]
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danielpbarron	;;later tell mjr_ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-08-2014#791843 << you can now	[17:09]
assbot	Logged on 12-08-2014 00:44:36; mjr_: by the way, anyone gonna tell me if i can play this game where i can buy things with bitcoin?	[17:09]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[17:09]
decimation	re: political time < it occurred to me that the far more obvious way of synchronizing a clock is to simply take note of the sunrise and/or sunset	[17:12]
decimation	in fact, someone who depises 'astronomical time' in favor of cesium time is also fully in favor of 'usg time'	[17:12]
ascii_field	decimation: and if it rains ?	[17:12]
decimation	wait till tomorrow	[17:12]
ascii_field	and if you are in submarine ?	[17:12]
ascii_field	can't wait	[17:12]
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ascii_field	you're running a node.	[17:13]
ascii_field	in real time	[17:13]
decimation	actually it would be neat to build a nutrino detector	[17:13]
decimation	in your submarine	[17:13]
ascii_field	afaik there is no useful timing info in solar neutrono flows	[17:13]
ascii_field	*neutrino flow	[17:13]
decimation	you might be able to determine the angle of the sun w.r.t. the earth's surface	[17:13]
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ascii_field	and, considering the famous formula ('50/50 interactions when passing through light-year of lead') portable detector is a questionable affair	[17:14]
decimation	sure but you got water everywhere	[17:14]
decimation	although biologics would probably jam your signal	[17:14]
ascii_field	aha	[17:15]
ascii_field	examine the construction of a neutrino observatory.	[17:15]
ascii_field	(typically, abandoned mine filled with salt water and thousands of photomultiplier tubes on the walls, each the size of a man's torso)	[17:15]
decimation	indeed.	[17:15]
ascii_field	anyway, since this thread came back to life, i will point out that mircea_popescu is right re: the notion of time being necessary for a bitcoin net. but it doesn't have to come from a clock as traditionally understood	[17:17]
ascii_field	it just has to be a reasonably-periodic signal that all nodes can see, whose period is not affected by the aggregate hash rate, nor can be manipulated at reasonable expense by gnomes	[17:18]
decimation	perhaps the pogo should come with a sunlight detector	[17:19]
ascii_field	natural phenomena don't fit the bill	[17:19]
ascii_field	not only because they are not reliably detectable (rain, clouds, being in a submarine)	[17:19]
ascii_field	but because can be faked in various 'good enough' ways	[17:20]
ascii_field	and, on the other end, require specialized hardware	[17:20]
decimation	if usg can spam uv over a large area for hours, then you probably have bigger problems than money	[17:22]
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ascii_field	decimation: thinking more of hacks like rf detection of sunspot cycle	[17:22]
ascii_field	or schumann's resonance, etc	[17:22]
decimation	yeah. ultimately a thinking person can observe sunrise, sunset, set own clock (calendar might be another matter)	[17:23]
decimation	of course 'set clock' algorithm needs your lat/lon	[17:23]
lobbes	plus, then you are back to 'who sets the clocks' problem	[17:24]
ascii_field	aha	[17:24]
decimation	the sun does.	[17:24]
ascii_field	and what of when you cannot see the sunrise ?	[17:24]
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decimation	then you ought to have made preparations	[17:24]
ascii_field	such as ?	[17:24]
decimation	if you have a submarine, you probably ought to have high quality timekeeping equipment	[17:25]
ascii_field	so we're back to clock, then	[17:25]
ascii_field	we already know how to meet and set clocks, last i checked	[17:25]
decimation	you could even use a sundial	[17:25]
ascii_field	on submarine.	[17:25]
decimation	submarine needs clock, yes.	[17:26]
ascii_field	let's try to define the basic puzzle here	[17:26]
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ascii_field	two (at minimum) geographically separated people, with enemies in between, wish to agree re: how much time has passed since they last spoke, 2016 blocks ago.	[17:26]
decimation	they don't own clocks and can't see the sunrise and don't know where they are too?	[17:27]
ascii_field	let's suppose they traded pgp keys and can communicate securely. however, they cannot prevent the enemy from delaying messages	[17:27]
ascii_field	or sometimes 'losing' them entirely	[17:27]
decimation	sure.	[17:27]
ascii_field	say they own very poor clocks, which drift by a second - or more - per minute.	[17:28]
decimation	heh ok	[17:28]
ascii_field	(pogo...)	[17:28]
decimation	it's not quite that bad	[17:28]
decimation	but not great, granted	[17:29]
ascii_field	for the sake of argument.	[17:29]
ascii_field	aha	[17:29]
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ascii_field	and now compound the problem by supposing that it is not you and your best friend, but you and a network consisting, to an unknown degree, of devils	[17:29]
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decimation	devils who reluctantly serve up blocksl	[17:31]
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ascii_field	devils who do whatever it takes to camouflage as men	[17:31]
ascii_field	while dishing out max damage	[17:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92665 @ 0.00057468 = 53.2527 BTC [+] {4}	[17:32]
funkenstein_	consider a node that passes on valid TXs, checks new blocks for proper work and passes them on. it ignores timestamps and lets miners say what current difficulty is. useless or not?	[17:35]
ascii_field	vulnerable to rewinds.	[17:36]
ascii_field	and to other induced forkage.	[17:36]
ascii_field	(will accept blocks that are not, by the traditional bitcoin rules, valid. and predicate acceptance of future blocks on these turds - which is what 'accept a block' means)	[17:36]
ben_vulpes	what is a rewind attack?	[17:36]
ascii_field	ben_vulpes: being fed an alternate past	[17:37]
ascii_field	typically from when mining was considerably 'easier'	[17:37]
ascii_field	but not necessarily	[17:37]
ascii_field	(can be recent past)	[17:37]
ben_vulpes	i'm sure you've gone into this in depth, but doesn't the length of the current main chain make that ludicrously expensive?	[17:37]
ascii_field	ben_vulpes: why would it ?	[17:38]
ascii_field	certain variants of the attack are prohibitively costly, yes	[17:38]
ascii_field	others - no	[17:38]
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ben_vulpes	which variants are cheap?	[17:38]
funkenstein_	!up ascii_field	[17:38]
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ben_vulpes	aha the one where you simply hold difficulty constant and mine a long-ass chain.	[17:39]
ascii_field	aha	[17:39]
funkenstein_	the chain with the most work demonstrated wins	[17:39]
ascii_field	or feeding a whole alternate universe to a virginal (has nothing but genesis) node	[17:39]
decimation	I donno, it strikes me that having a sundial and knowing how to use it (convert to universal time) is a pretty cheap counter	[17:39]
ascii_field	which yes, you can defend against with crude kludges like storing sums, but this is 'enumerated badness'	[17:39]
ben_vulpes	decimation: but then people would have to touch it !!111twelve1	[17:40]
ascii_field	decimation: now you have a human slave in the loop	[17:40]
ascii_field	straight to 'slavecoin'	[17:40]
ascii_field	don't even need a computer.	[17:40]
decimation	yeah, slave tells you time of day	[17:40]
ascii_field	and hashes with goose feather pen	[17:40]
ascii_field	as described in mircea_popescu's tale	[17:40]
decimation	well, if slave tells you time of day, the class of attacks you describe become much more difficult	[17:41]
ascii_field	except that the attacks now include having one's throat cut at night, aha	[17:41]
ascii_field	at any rate, we don't actually know how to do 'proof of work' thing using meat.	[17:42]
ascii_field	if we did, 'hawala' would have used it 2000 y ago.	[17:42]
decimation	yes, true.	[17:42]
ascii_field	in my mind, that's sorta the whole point of bitcoin.	[17:42]
ben_vulpes	(unrelatedly: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/opinion/15pubed.html?_r=1)	[17:43]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1D1BLmt )	[17:43]
ben_vulpes	(on the use of "torture" in the nyt)	[17:43]
decimation	why does the fact that your throat can be cut invalidate proof of work?	[17:44]
ascii_field	it doesn't	[17:44]
ascii_field	separate problems.	[17:44]
shinohai	I should say having one's throat cut invalidates a lot of things.	[17:44]
decimation	not for me	[17:44]
decimation	(your throat i mean)	[17:45]
ascii_field	the unfortunate thing is that the 'easy to verify, hard to produce' thing very much requires machines.	[17:45]
decimation	at any rate, I fully admit that bitcoin requires slaves to feed computers the right data and configure them	[17:45]
*	decimation wonders if skynet will need an 'economy' or will just directly solve the 'need things/have things' trade matrix	[17:46]
bagels7	i'll be your slave for a million dollars on a 5 year basis	[17:46]
ascii_field	decimation: do you know the story of how the concept of 'space station' came about?	[17:46]
decimation	not precisely no	[17:46]
ascii_field	well, afaik the 'precise' is not publicly known. but the ancient rumour that was taught to me was that it was a usg military propaganda trick	[17:47]
ascii_field	see, somebody's gotta change the vacuum tubes	[17:47]
ascii_field	in spy satellites.	[17:47]
ascii_field	except when they don't. then, suddenly, much less talk of space stations	[17:47]
decimation	yeah, that's true I think. the soviets believed it anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz	[17:48]
assbot	Almaz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlbOKo )	[17:48]
decimation	su actually built 'manned spy satellites' - became 'civilian peace stations' in the 80's	[17:49]
ascii_field	aha.	[17:49]
ascii_field	just as usg turned their orbital nuke dropper into 'space shuttle'	[17:49]
decimation	but I do see your point, if we can make the hardware 'reliable'	[17:49]
ascii_field	a pogo, as i envision it, has much in common with a comm satellite	[17:50]
shinohai	Is there a history of the pogo somewhere?	[17:51]
ascii_field	shinohai: of the pogo as it comes from the vendor ?	[17:51]
ascii_field	or of our particular dealings with it	[17:51]
shinohai	Of your particular dealings. How the idea of using it came about.	[17:51]
shinohai	I was just curious.	[17:51]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-07-2015#1184297	[17:52]
assbot	Logged on 02-07-2015 17:52:19; ascii_field: shinohai: it all started with http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-01-2015#988286	[17:52]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu posed the question of what is the cheapest mass-produced piece of equipment that could be pressed into service to run therealbitcoin.	[17:53]
ascii_field	the answer turned out to be pogo.	[17:53]
ascii_field	by a factor of 6 or so.	[17:53]
ascii_field	mainly because it is (or rather was) sold far below cost by the manufacturer	[17:53]
ascii_field	who was pushing a weirdo 'cloud subscription' thing with it	[17:53]
shinohai	I am fascinated by how mircea_popescu envisioned that. I tried for well over a year to figure out how to busybox it.	[17:54]
shinohai	And failed.	[17:54]
ascii_field	shinohai: he didn't	[17:54]
ascii_field	just asked the question.	[17:54]
ascii_field	i answered it, experimentally	[17:54]
ascii_field	ported netbsd to the thing, too	[17:55]
ascii_field	which turned out to be a waste of time	[17:55]
ascii_field	(certain necessaries did not work correctly)	[17:55]
shinohai	I was hoping my pogo would arrive today, but postman has already come. :/	[17:57]
ascii_field	shinohai: most of what i've done re: therealbitcoin so far revolves around getting memory footprint under control	[17:59]
ascii_field	shinohai: pogo has 128M of ram, soldered on.	[18:00]
shinohai	And it is fantastic work, imho. My shell provider doesn't bitch at me about bandwidth anymore either.	[18:00]
ascii_field	um	[18:01]
williamdunne	Wait, people are successful at running bitcoin on summin with 128m of ram?	[18:01]
williamdunne	Wao	[18:01]
ascii_field	everything i did only ~increases~ bandwidth consumption	[18:01]
ascii_field	williamdunne: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000107.html	[18:01]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1Rld7c9 )	[18:01]
ascii_field	williamdunne: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150701/rss_d1746f76523316edcdc82326213f8953bf6f0d09.png	[18:01]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RldaVB )	[18:01]
shinohai	For some reason mine has dropped, but probably because I'm not connecting to a bzillion nodes	[18:01]
ascii_field	(this was a node, i must remind the reader, with no mempool, on account of having no net connection and being fed blocks 'intravenously' if you will)	[18:02]
ascii_field	vertical axis is in kB	[18:02]
ascii_field	the thing here, as discussed in the past, is that 300 bytes (block header and overhead) are kept in ram at all times per ~known block~	[18:03]
ascii_field	now if the node is 'live' and has net connection, hears tx, suffers possible fragging (see old threads) - then even more consumption.	[18:04]
ascii_field	but what you see in that graph is the only 'leak' in the usual sense	[18:04]
ascii_field	as in, the one thing that is guaranteed to grow monotonically	[18:04]
ascii_field	https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000cf530b3346a39156f56eb9259e5d7fd97a6e9168ffaf91e << l0l	[18:07]
assbot	Bitcoin Block #364463 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RldQKx )	[18:07]
shinohai	test	[18:09]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[18:09]
shinohai	!up ascii_field	[18:09]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[18:09]
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ascii_field	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3clbk6/bitcoin_xt_status_update/cswlmk4 << l0l	[18:09]
assbot	HostFat comments on Bitcoin XT Status Update ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rle4kR )	[18:09]
ascii_field	'As you may have noticed, Bitcoin unfortunately has run out of capacity due to someone DoS attacking the network.'	[18:10]
ascii_field	'run out'	[18:10]
ascii_field	'someone'	[18:10]
ascii_field	'bigger blocks'	[18:10]
ascii_field	(hearn, of course)	[18:10]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14762 @ 0.00056898 = 8.3993 BTC [-]	[18:12]
trinque	"I suspect it can be mitigated through heavier reliance on coin age priority, as coin age is not something that can be trivially bought on the spot, unlike fee priority."	[18:12]
trinque	same idiot argument re: spam as Luke-Jr	[18:12]
trinque	IF IT HAS A FEE ATTACHED AND IS A VALID TXN, IT'S NOT SPAM	[18:13]
ascii_field	^	[18:13]
ascii_field	though gotta wonder if this is still fair to say re: a gigantic sack of shit with the words 'this is spam, and fuck you' printed right on it	[18:14]
ascii_field	(the tx sent to brainwallet('password') etc)	[18:15]
trinque	sure, one can imagine some sane criteria on determining spamitude	[18:15]
ascii_field	but aside from that, bidding up space in blocks by blowing one's own coin is a perfectly legit thing to do	[18:15]
ascii_field	as per the protocol rules	[18:16]
trinque	it's telling that they are not even willing to consider using, you know, a fucking market for this	[18:16]
ascii_field	if usg wants to spend its coin this way, it can	[18:16]
mats	its an ideological matter to hear Luke-Jr tell it	[18:17]
ascii_field	as i pointed out before, it is being done for two disjoint reasons. one is so that hearn can write the turd linked above, re: 'it is crowded and we need blocks of $maxint size'	[18:17]
ascii_field	the other is so that gavin & co. can try to persuade miners to use their turdball	[18:17]
mats	'i dun wanna hold gigs of "spam" on my drive, and nobody else does either'	[18:17]
ascii_field	by promising 'tx fee ordering' as a feature	[18:17]
*	danielpbarron has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[18:18]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193852 << the fucking market is there. nobody broke it. but to redditards, 'market won't supply me with free shit' == 'market has failed'	[18:19]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 21:12:24; trinque: it's telling that they are not even willing to consider using, you know, a fucking market for this	[18:19]
trinque	right, I said this yesterday	[18:19]
trinque	stress test seems to prove the system works from where I sit	[18:19]
ascii_field	trinque: not if you ask the tards	[18:20]
ascii_field	for them, 'it broke'	[18:20]
ascii_field	because they can't send their 0.01 btc without fee	[18:20]
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mod6	'don't be poor'	[18:21]
ascii_field	one telling mark of a tard is that he is unwilling to consider that market's job is not only to supply folks with things, but to REFUSE to supply them	[18:21]
ascii_field	when they cannot pay	[18:21]
shinohai	my tunnel collapsed	[18:22]
shinohai	sorry for the flood	[18:22]
trinque	ascii_field: reminds me of mircea_popescu's recent comments to the effect of roughly "We've done it! I exist!"	[18:22]
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trinque	cannot think of a more vulgar mentality	[18:23]
ascii_field	l0l wut	[18:23]
trinque	the redditard mentality	[18:23]
trinque	that the fact of their pulse is by itself something special and important	[18:23]
mats	we're all equals, man	[18:24]
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mats	we must has equal outcomes or else fascism	[18:24]
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ascii_field	https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000dd2101c3f08f3e4ad16f90c37a2780f5012358c18371642	[18:28]
assbot	Bitcoin Block #364467 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlfOdZ )	[18:28]
thestringpuller	ascii_field: so what's the problem here?	[18:29]
thestringpuller	we get fee market. fuck the people who can't pay for their nice things	[18:29]
thestringpuller	get a fucking job already	[18:29]
asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[18:29]
thestringpuller	stop complaining about "waah my transactions is unconfirmed waaaah"	[18:29]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[18:29]
*	BingoBoingo just switched own nodes to 0.001 min fee for transaction relay	[18:29]
ascii_field	thestringpuller: ask'em	[18:29]
*	shinohai likes how BingoBoingo thinks.	[18:30]
ascii_field	thestringpuller: i'm not even certain that the 'ocean of complaint' consists of real people	[18:30]
ascii_field	rather than philippino meat puppets for-hire	[18:30]
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BingoBoingo	Impact of my relay policy change on the network will be near nil, but policy is policy	[18:31]
funkenstein_	meanwhile litecoin users enjoying "stress test" popcorn	[18:31]
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funkenstein_	i've never understood the philippino references i see here	[18:32]
ascii_field	funkenstein_: it's in the log	[18:32]
thestringpuller	!s philippino	[18:32]
assbot	1 results for 'philippino' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=philippino	[18:32]
shinohai	!s philippino meat puppets for-hire	[18:32]
assbot	0 results for 'philippino meat puppets for-hire' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=philippino+meat+puppets+for-hire	[18:32]
thestringpuller	!s phillipino	[18:32]
assbot	2 results for 'phillipino' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=phillipino	[18:32]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-02-2015#1003223	[18:32]
assbot	Logged on 02-02-2015 23:04:03; mircea_popescu: it was highlighted by intel about two weeks ago, and we're generally tracing it to philippines "top quality" content farms working for a number of (mostly ct and wash based) pr firms.	[18:32]
ascii_field	^	[18:32]
fluffypony	itt: nobody can spell phillllippppinnnnooooo	[18:32]
shinohai	i copy-pasta'd xD	[18:33]
ascii_field	see whole thread	[18:33]
ascii_field	particularly, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2015#1003221	[18:33]
assbot	Logged on 02-02-2015 23:03:08; mircea_popescu: "I've noticed certain repeating characteristic in the writing of many members of this forum: they construct grammatically correct sentences but absolutely disregard the underlying semantics: incoming vs. outgoing, local vs. remote, source vs. destination, etc. Here in regards to TCP/IP ports, but I observed that in regards to pretty much any technical issue."	[18:33]
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williamdunne	WTF	[18:44]
williamdunne	It starts with an F? What's this shit	[18:44]
williamdunne	filipino	[18:44]
trinque	who gives a shit about arbitrary distinctions such as that?	[18:47]
trinque	only asciilifeform's test takers	[18:47]
trinque	and players of dwarf fortress	[18:47]
funkenstein_	bad spellers of the world: untie!	[18:50]
williamdunne	Sorta like how dyslexic is probably pretty hard to spell if you're dyslexic	[18:50]
trinque	brings to mind http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/european-commission.html	[18:52]
assbot	Jokes - European Commission ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlhwMq )	[18:52]
williamdunne	http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-08/greece-illustrates-150-years-socialist-failure-europe	[18:55]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RlhKmF )	[18:55]
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*	BingoBoingo is guessing that at some point Rubidium standards are going to become #b-a coture	[19:03]
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BingoBoingo	Apparently Microshit is copying MP nao http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html	[19:35]
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assbot	Donate to the OpenBSD Foundation ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hi3NLe )	[19:35]
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decimation	BingoBoingo: actually high quality ovenized quartz can be nearly as good as rubidium	[19:52]
BingoBoingo	Suffers labeling issues though. Hard to tell buy ordering if you get actual part or Chicom turd	[19:53]
decimation	not if you are willing to pay $$$	[19:53]
decimation	here's a reasonable text on celestial navigation http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/page2.htm	[19:55]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KPIZ4W )	[19:55]
decimation	there is a description on how to derive time by measuring the moon's motion relative to other objects in the sky	[19:55]
decimation	actually better link to the book here http://www.celnav.de/page2.htm	[19:57]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1Hi8RPQ )	[19:57]
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asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: the fixation on physical clocks, astronomical magic, etc. is unproductive re: the original problem posed.	[20:01]
asciilifeform	(though by no means useless in general)	[20:01]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Nah, for different, later problems	[20:02]
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asciilifeform	we, afaik, do not have those problems yet. must still graduate to them.	[20:02]
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BingoBoingo	At somepoint though we will have the problem on when to start decelerating the starship lest we crashland into Alpha Centurai	[20:03]
asciilifeform	right now we have the very different problem of how not to drown in own shit.	[20:04]
BingoBoingo	And the way to not drown might just be space ship	[20:04]
BingoBoingo	Or Space shit	[20:04]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: if you have a tip re: how to make perfectly synchronized with one another rubidium clocks materialize in the existing $20 pogos, i'm all ears..	[20:05]
BingoBoingo	No idea about that.	[20:05]
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asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: might wanna read that thread, it's pretty lulzy	[20:06]
asciilifeform	it's where i describe how bitcoin is not actually decentralized at all, but depends on a thoroughly usgificated network of political clocks	[20:06]
decimation	^ clocks that could be, but probably are not, checked for accuracy	[20:06]
BingoBoingo	I read the thread. closest I have to solutions are either Noping ft. meade off the earth into the sun or Noping out and taking stator to ALpha Centurai	[20:07]
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BingoBoingo	But I dunno. Maybe at some point radio hashes happens.	[20:14]
BingoBoingo	Disguise the signal as over the horizon radar	[20:14]
BingoBoingo	And at that point why not have competing political time broadcast on that signal, signed	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it doesn't acvtually depend on it.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	owner of node may choose to depend on it	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time.	[20:19]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193532 << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either.	[20:23]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 18:06:08; ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: this doesn't help either. no one can force them to keep making the 'doxxed' chip.	[20:23]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193580 << no.	[20:26]
decimation	also describing it as 'political time' when the policy is 'matches easily observable astronomical phenomena' seems a bit hyperbolic	[20:26]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 18:32:24; williamdunne: What happened to that German socialist girl, she ever come back to continue her derping?	[20:26]
mircea_popescu	and ftr she looked like a guy to me.	[20:26]
mircea_popescu	decimation time is not a natural phenomenon.	[20:26]
trinque	^ found that googling as well	[20:26]
decimation	spacetime doesn't exist?	[20:27]
trinque	women in technology == technologically produced womyn	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	but that aside, this is conventional time.	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	spacetime is an artefact of the observation being carried out.	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	and also, it is not ~time~. it is space-time.	[20:27]
decimation	as opposed to what? being derived from platonic ideals?	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	as opposed to mass.	[20:27]
BingoBoingo	spacetime doesn't exist? << It isn't space or time, merely the manifold until it is intuited by the apperception	[20:30]
decimation	same could be said of quarks	[20:30]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193590 << he is basically saying http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-06-2015#1170141 and in that he is right. for the exact reason in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-06-2015#1169850	[20:32]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 19:02:31; ascii_field: 'If you want to end ISIS, teach it game theory and casebooks. "They['ll] get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do," and lose.' (from the al schwartz link earlier)	[20:32]
assbot	Logged on 20-06-2015 23:17:19; asciilifeform: but no, he wants to use what the gods gave him.	[20:32]
assbot	Logged on 20-06-2015 19:29:12; mircea_popescu: the notion that human agency is ever "effectual" is such rank nonsense to begion with, that a pretense of "saving action for optimal effect" can only be regarded in psychogenic terms	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	specifically, that if you wait for the "optimal" you're waiting forever.	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	decimation in any case, the time bitcoin uses is a political construct.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	a matter of conventional agreementr, currently overseen by exactly usg.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	unless you wish to experimentally prove that ~you~ can insert leap seconds into places.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193597 exactly http://trilema.com/2009/hai-sa-facem-o-socoteala/ :D	[20:34]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 19:17:10; ascii_field: '12 years public school, 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, 4 years post-doc. You are now over 30, deeply in debt, and starting life. Your idiot high school classmate who held a STOP sign at a construction site has been pulling $80K/year, has a fine home, wife, three kids, and a motor boat. His eldest son rakes in $850K/year tax-free facilitating recreational pharmaceuticals and an escort s	[20:34]
assbot	Hai sa facem o socoteala. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HcsbyU )	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193615 << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature.	[20:35]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 19:38:22; ascii_field: one can have one coming out of ears and arse, and lack the other entirely	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193627 << this is not unlike inquiring "what makes the sterile woman the waste of chocolate that she is". she only becomes that if you put her in a matronly role. otherwise, i wouldn't want a fertile catwoman.	[20:37]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 19:46:07; ascii_field: what makes the exam champ the waste of oxygen that he is ?	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	so the problem there is of management not of nature. chinese exam taker is a great asset in any sanely balanced system.	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	and generally, the quality of a system is to be measured by how many people it can make life meaningful for, not how many people it has to kill to survive.	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193636 << consider many of the things we regularly discuss here. most people are neither willing to consider not even willing to look upon the outrage that goes on daily, hourly. be it icons of say badly beaten up women, or whatever else. plenty of people keep lists of words they won't ever say. this disinclination ~to consider~, however the subject justifies it, is the c	[20:40]
mircea_popescu	ertainest macula of intellectual ineptitude.	[20:40]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 19:51:46; ascii_field: the 'capable' part is definitely key. who hasn't met his fair share of hack writers, for instance, poor schmucks grasping desperately for one singe original idea? and never finding it	[20:40]
mircea_popescu	fact is, if you're not willing to consider the things you aren't going to do, your not doing them is not any sort merit, and it certainly won't ever work in your favour.	[20:40]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193642 << is this an actual perspective, or is it a knot of nonsense ?	[20:41]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 19:55:54; trinque: if he in fact has the capability, then the empathy which might cause him to accept someone else's perspective instead would only be a hindrance	[20:41]
mircea_popescu	http://polymatharchives.blogspot.in/2015/01/the-inappropriately-excluded.html << this thing is such bs. if the intelligent need to whine on an obscure blog, and for "society" to GIVE THEM shit they're about as intelligent as a mensa chapter. which isn't all that flattering.	[20:42]
assbot	The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hct624 )	[20:42]
trinque	that's more or less what I got from asciilifeform, that he was describing a person which, to put it in idiot's terms "does what makes sense to him"	[20:43]
trinque	could not find much clinical "psychopathy" in that	[20:43]
trinque	which leads me to suspect the term itself is stupid	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	not sure i follow.	[20:44]
trinque	I (perhaps incorrectly) take "psychopath" to be a political term, akin to "sociopath"	[20:46]
trinque	the former something like "does what he wants to, even if people cry" and the latter maybe "lies to his enemies, effectively"	[20:46]
mircea_popescu	hm	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	go on ?	[20:47]
*	punkman1 is now known as punkman	[20:47]
trinque	mostly just that; I hear these terms most often used by someone who thinks someone else has been unfair, and ought to be restrained by the state	[20:47]
*	assbot gives voice to punkman	[20:47]
trinque	was otherwise fishing for asciilifeform's definition of the term.	[20:48]
punkman	mircea_popescu: does romanian have a word for sociopath?	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	sociopat	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	just like in english, it doesn't actually mean anything, unlike english it is not used by the hipstery youth.	[20:50]
punkman	there's an academic word for it in greek, nobody ever uses it though	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	there is aschilopat, which is a purely nonsense word that is use to convey roughly the same notion, "invisible gross diformity worthy of pity" but it's blue collar slang mostly.	[20:51]
trinque	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia << this one's pretty good	[20:52]
assbot	Sluggish schizophrenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPONLJ )	[20:52]
trinque	!s borderline	[20:52]
assbot	30 results for 'borderline' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=borderline	[20:52]
trinque	http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/10/the_diagnosis_of_borderline_pe.html << found it	[20:53]
assbot	The Last Psychiatrist: The Diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder: What Does It Really Mean? ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPORuX )	[20:53]
*	mircea_popescu drops http://trilema.com/2014/the-definitive-tract-on-sociopathy/ since we're on it	[20:54]
assbot	The definitive tract on sociopathy on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPOXmf )	[20:54]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193670 << the mother of all occultations yes	[20:55]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 20:08:22; decimation: re: political time < it occurred to me that the far more obvious way of synchronizing a clock is to simply take note of the sunrise and/or sunset	[20:55]
trinque	"This is what sociopathy is : what the scum of the earth currently calls its betters." << right, soon to give way to "fagtalkers"	[20:58]
trinque	though one hopes it doesn't take long enough for that	[20:58]
trinque	I keep wanting to call that "inversion"	[20:59]
trinque	where something unnatural persists for so long it becomes the basis of comparison	[20:59]
trinque	eh unnatural is problematic	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193749 << this is an important point that i don't think asciilifeform fully digested. replay attacks that rely on block count do not work. actuall superior WORK has to be shown.	[20:59]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 20:35:49; funkenstein_: the chain with the most work demonstrated wins	[20:59]
BingoBoingo	https://i.imgur.com/tTqFfvF.jpg	[20:59]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1KPPp3Y )	[20:59]
punkman	mircea_popescu: I liked the toilet analogy	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	trinque magic thinking is this all through	[21:00]
trinque	mhm	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	punkman how far off do you think tyhat piece is, as a local ?	[21:00]
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mircea_popescu	!up solrodar	[21:01]
-assbot-	You voiced solrodar for 30 minutes.	[21:01]
*	assbot gives voice to solrodar	[21:01]
solrodar	hello	[21:02]
punkman	mircea_popescu: close enough	[21:02]
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*	mircea_popescu is impressed with himself.	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	hello solrodar. who're you ?	[21:02]
punkman	maybe a good time for a translation of the older ones? gtranslate not doing them justice	[21:02]
solrodar	mircea_popescu: one of your blog readers	[21:03]
solrodar	I've made an attempt at the call graph you requested	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	o hey.	[21:03]
solrodar	http://imgh.us/bitcoin-dot.svg	[21:03]
assbot	Call graph ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hcvoyr )	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform ^	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	solrodar do you know what gpg is ?	[21:03]
solrodar	yes, but not used it	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	!h	[21:03]
assbot	http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	solrodar consider register a signature with the bot.	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	registering*	[21:04]
solrodar	ok	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	also consider leaving a comment with the link and a functional email address on the trilema post.	[21:05]
mircea_popescu	(trying to make sure you can actually claim your prize - as it is anyone can in principle use a freenode nick)	[21:05]
BingoBoingo	;;bc,stats	[21:15]
gribble	Current Blocks: None \| Current Difficulty: 4.940201493122746E10 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 364895 \| Next Difficulty In: None blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 13 hours, 16 minutes, and 1 second \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None	[21:16]
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BingoBoingo	!up solrodar	[21:36]
*	assbot gives voice to solrodar	[21:36]
*	The20YearIRCloud has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[21:40]
solrodar	!rate assbot 1 testing	[21:44]
assbot	You must be rated before you can rate.	[21:44]
solrodar	heh	[21:44]
ben_vulpes	!rate solrodar 1 doolb wen	[21:47]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/f2cf461b4bf2e335	[21:47]
ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.solrodar.1:898d1835333b88e8a1aeafa9acb92bbad9b839fc1cf4135f8a2ea7ea45bf4c5f	[21:48]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for solrodar with note: doolb wen	[21:48]
BingoBoingo	solrodar: Now !up yourself	[21:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00057586 = 6.3345 BTC [+]	[21:51]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1194040 << sorry, totally useless	[21:52]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 23:59:32; solrodar: http://imgh.us/bitcoin-dot.svg	[21:52]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-07-2015#1192228 << see thread	[21:52]
assbot	Logged on 07-07-2015 21:11:38; ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four	[21:52]
solrodar	it's not great I know	[21:52]
solrodar	but if that's the actual structure of the code then what else can you do?	[21:53]
shinohai	I need a projector to see it	[21:53]
asciilifeform	solrodar: gonna tell me that the structure requires putting, e.g., CWalletDB::ReadBestBlock a mile away from AppInit2, even though the former connects to ~nothing else~ ???!!	[21:53]
asciilifeform	and see example of CreateNewBlock	[21:55]
asciilifeform	if you had ~only~ this chart,	[21:55]
asciilifeform	could you say what it calls ?	[21:55]
asciilifeform	i'd be lying if i said yes	[21:55]
asciilifeform	not trying to be a spoilsport, but pointing out fact	[21:56]
solrodar	yeah some things are oddly positioned	[21:56]
trinque	it's gonna take manual arrangement	[21:56]
trinque	no way around it	[21:56]
asciilifeform	trinque: i really don't understand why	[21:56]
asciilifeform	the most obvious problems have nothing to do with shortest paths	[21:57]
trinque	and/or some really nice force directed graph thing	[21:57]
trinque	of which I've found nothing but shit	[21:57]
asciilifeform	another problem is abominably small print	[21:57]
asciilifeform	at least 10% of the page should be occupied by letters.	[21:57]
solrodar	I don't think any amount of manual arrangement would shrink the overall size that much	[21:58]
asciilifeform	solrodar: tell you what. i'm not the one who put up the bounty (that was mircea_popescu) but i was the one who asked for the chart. if you can produce a dependency graph in s-expression format, embodying the info in this graph, ~and~ show me how to get same using open source utils, i will say the job is done	[21:59]
solrodar	there are so many edges that you need to leave space between the nodes to keep them from overlapping too much	[21:59]
asciilifeform	(the job won't be done, but it will become possible for me to do it)	[21:59]
asciilifeform	you know, there is no reason why all the letters have to be parallel with the bottom of the page	[22:00]
asciilifeform	plenty of room if you remove that limit	[22:00]
solrodar	I don't follow you	[22:02]
solrodar	what's parallel with what?	[22:02]
asciilifeform	the captions	[22:02]
asciilifeform	are all horizontal	[22:02]
asciilifeform	they don't have to be	[22:02]
solrodar	I don't see how changing that would give you more space	[22:04]
BingoBoingo	!b 9	[22:04]
assbot	Last 9 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2SZRD5W.txt )	[22:04]
asciilifeform	ferfuxxake	[22:05]
asciilifeform	i could draw the picture and explain. but then i will have drawn the picture	[22:05]
BingoBoingo	!b 2	[22:05]
assbot	Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0B3S7RR.txt )	[22:05]
solrodar	I mean it's the positioning of the boxes which is the problem	[22:06]
BingoBoingo	The problem is the thing being modeled, hence the bounty	[22:07]
*	assbot removes voice from solrodar	[22:07]
asciilifeform	!up solrodar	[22:08]
*	assbot gives voice to solrodar	[22:08]
solrodar	you can get dot to lay the graph out from top to bottom rather than left to right, but it won't be any better	[22:08]
asciilifeform	wasn't the idea	[22:08]
asciilifeform	idea is, to make the text sit down at whatever angle is needed	[22:08]
asciilifeform	31 degrees if need be	[22:08]
asciilifeform	or 5	[22:08]
asciilifeform	to maximize space for the arrows.	[22:09]
asciilifeform	and other thing, if a node is a leaf of only one stem, it should be right next to it	[22:10]
asciilifeform	and not half the page away.	[22:10]
asciilifeform	there is room for this to be the case everywhere.	[22:10]
solrodar	yeah, I don't know why it doesn't always do that	[22:11]
solrodar	it's clearly doing it in some places	[22:11]
asciilifeform	because the tool is retarded	[22:11]
asciilifeform	i can use that tool too, you know.	[22:11]
asciilifeform	i don't need the garbage that comes out of codeviz or those other 3	[22:11]
asciilifeform	i need a usable graph	[22:11]
asciilifeform	this is probably more than 1 btc worth of work	[22:12]
asciilifeform	and so i'm not holding my breath waiting for it to get done by anybody.	[22:12]
solrodar	looks that way	[22:12]
solrodar	so if I provide the graph in s-expression format with instructions, do you have any specific plan for visualizing it?	[22:13]
solrodar	or you just want the data to experiment?	[22:13]
asciilifeform	data.	[22:14]
asciilifeform	but not only it, but a complete recipe whereby i can regenerate it.	[22:14]
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solrodar	of course	[22:14]
asciilifeform	solrodar: might wanna ask mircea_popescu if he will award the prize for this item, which is not what he asked for, before putting in serious effort	[22:15]
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solrodar	at this stage the only extra effort is to output it in sexpr format rather than dot format	[22:16]
solrodar	I'm already pulling the graph into a script to do some filtering	[22:16]
asciilifeform	neat.	[22:17]
*	BingoBoingo wonders how his 0.7.2 qt build ever worked on OpenBSD	[22:17]
asciilifeform	thank you for the effort, solrodar	[22:17]
solrodar	because if you include all the low-level functions and bignum classes and so forth in the graph then it'll be 10 times worse	[22:17]
asciilifeform	eheheheeh wat	[22:17]
asciilifeform	these are missing?!!!	[22:17]
asciilifeform	then entirely useless	[22:17]
asciilifeform	i want every token	[22:17]
asciilifeform	in .cpp and .h	[22:17]
asciilifeform	in that tree.	[22:18]
solrodar	you can have every token	[22:18]
asciilifeform	gotta have those.	[22:18]
solrodar	including std:: and boost::	[22:18]
asciilifeform	how did you even choose what to exclude ?	[22:18]
solrodar	just remove the filters	[22:18]
asciilifeform	where did the filter come from ?	[22:18]
solrodar	started with the standard library	[22:18]
solrodar	then cut out nodes with very high in-degree which appeared to be low-level functions	[22:19]
punkman	btw aren't all those stacked "using namespace std;" "using namespace boost;" statements a bad idea?	[22:19]
asciilifeform	would like a way of adjusting this	[22:19]
solrodar	yeah, it's just a list of regexes, you can change them as you like	[22:19]
asciilifeform	ok	[22:19]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193949 << virtually all of them do, however. whether ~i~ choose to run ntp or not does not change the fact that the bulk of the network (including - though i can only suspect! - the mining bulk) does.	[22:20]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:17; mircea_popescu: owner of node may choose to depend on it	[22:20]
BingoBoingo	solrodar: If your recipe works a narrative of it could be welcome qntra material	[22:20]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193950 << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what	[22:21]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:23; mircea_popescu: otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time.	[22:21]
solrodar	the one thing which is missing which you asked for is virtual function calls, which are only used in the keystore base class	[22:21]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193951 << it's why they produce incompatible ones regularly. because no way to know if it happened or not yet, save for passage of time	[22:21]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 23:19:24; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193532 << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either.	[22:22]
solrodar	they don't appear to be in the clang output	[22:22]
asciilifeform	solrodar: your tool doesn't see virtual functions ?	[22:23]
solrodar	it sees their implementations but it doesn't see calls to them via the virtual lookup mechanism	[22:23]
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asciilifeform	solrodar: and how do you know that they are only used in keystore base class ?	[22:24]
solrodar	grep virtual *.h :)	[22:24]
asciilifeform	fair enough.	[22:25]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193979 << mircea_popescu misunderstood my point entirely. which was, that it is possible to have arbitrarily original ideas in, e.g., mathematics, while being certifiably worthless at 'making phriends and influencing people'	[22:26]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 23:32:00; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193615 << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature.	[22:26]
scoopbot_revived	S.MPOE: Trader's Delight. http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/08/s-mpoe-traders-delight/	[22:26]
BingoBoingo	... << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what << How often? A minute over a century and ignoring should be fine	[22:26]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: and if they decide that 'national s33k0000r1ty' requires a leap week ?	[22:26]
asciilifeform	to thwart 'financial terrorizm!!!1111'	[22:27]
asciilifeform	(aka bitcoin use)	[22:27]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: The time nerds burn the... Well QuickTrip and CVS were done so I guess WalMart	[22:27]
solrodar	!rate ben_vulpes 1 welcomed me to #b-a	[22:27]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/8c4aa8cc715c6d75	[22:27]
asciilifeform	!rate solrodar 1 flow graphs	[22:28]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/ebf2651b9eb17fd5	[22:28]
solrodar	!v assbot:solrodar.rate.ben_vulpes.1:be7ce5a08c6698de2492a0c464338aa0a12c9c6070b6d7a9a6feffbe27ef763a	[22:28]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for ben_vulpes with note: welcomed me to #b-a	[22:28]
asciilifeform	!v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.solrodar.1:0a8d0ab5914fc2d41371f84fe250e40f9eab92aab2afdf54f7774066895e50c5	[22:28]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for solrodar with note: flow graphs	[22:28]
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BingoBoingo	Leapweek would purely put USG time in the realm of clearly fiat time	[22:29]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: it was always fiat time	[22:29]
asciilifeform	just as argentine peso was fiat when it was still worth real money	[22:29]
asciilifeform	we haven't invented non-fiat time yet	[22:30]
BingoBoingo	Yes, even with the Romans fiat time. But poerverted like now dollar fiat time. At present still enjoy 1934 dollar fiat time	[22:30]
asciilifeform	(yes, decimation will teach you to tell epoch time within +/1 1000 by using the stars and moon. that does not change the essence of the fact that global epoch synchronized by machines is a fiat - specifically usg - creature)	[22:30]
decimation	asciilifeform: how is 'mean solar day is split into two parts; divided into 24 peices' fiat time?	[22:31]
decimation	you were the one arguing to ditch leap seconds	[22:31]
asciilifeform	it is fiat if i can't see the sun and rely on the kind to tell me	[22:31]
asciilifeform	*king	[22:31]
decimation	okay.	[22:31]
BingoBoingo	As far as I can tell time does not exist other than as a projection perpetrated by the brain	[22:31]
asciilifeform	this is a subtle point, granted	[22:31]
asciilifeform	and i don't expect everyone to grasp it immediately	[22:31]
decimation	time is absolute, space squishes and streches to nail to its strictures	[22:31]
decimation	asciilifeform: what does 'time outside of humanity' even mean?	[22:32]
BingoBoingo	decimation: Astronomical time is probelematic in that we do not know if LizardHitler mothership can subtly tow sun a few miles or give the moon a push	[22:32]
decimation	sure, he could do that	[22:32]
asciilifeform	decimation: 'outside of humanity' is a tall order. and not what anybody was asking for	[22:32]
asciilifeform	just needs to be 'outside' to the same extent bitcoin is (or naively appears to be)	[22:33]
asciilifeform	that is, massively resistant to organized diddling	[22:33]
decimation	what's the use of 'bitcoin outside of humanity'	[22:33]
asciilifeform	!s martian bank	[22:33]
assbot	6 results for 'martian bank' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=martian+bank	[22:33]
decimation	even martians could live with a 24-hour earth day	[22:34]
decimation	'dude just tell us how to set our clocks'	[22:34]
asciilifeform	because they can all see the sun	[22:35]
asciilifeform	and feel its warmth	[22:35]
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asciilifeform	but say they lived underground, and could not.	[22:35]
*	Vexual (~Vexual@unaffiliated/vexual) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:35]
asciilifeform	the sun is almost literally blinding decimation, making the problem look far easier than it actually is for us	[22:35]
asciilifeform	pogo cannot see the sun!	[22:35]
decimation	aye, that's a problem	[22:35]
decimation	but quite separate than 'we depend on time'	[22:36]
asciilifeform	it cannot see the moon, or the stars	[22:36]
decimation	I guess I just can't see 'we need to sun' to be a huge limitation on any human endeavour	[22:36]
asciilifeform	in so far as you, i, and every other fella on the net wants to know 'what second' it is 'right now', we are dealing in usgtronics	[22:36]
asciilifeform	because there is no other known way to do it	[22:36]
asciilifeform	within any kind of serious accuracy	[22:36]
decimation	yes, but that's conditional	[22:36]
decimation	and we don't need serious accuracy	[22:37]
decimation	+/- 5 min would be fine	[22:37]
decimation	or even more	[22:37]
asciilifeform	actually we do	[22:37]
asciilifeform	because drift	[22:37]
decimation	easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon	[22:37]
asciilifeform	long enough at +/- 5m and we get >2h off	[22:37]
asciilifeform	and it's game over.	[22:37]
decimation	yeah but these aren't launching into space	[22:37]
asciilifeform	they sorta are.	[22:37]
decimation	can emerge, get reset	[22:37]
asciilifeform	not from under the bed of the gurlz mircea_popescu picks up and pogopregnates	[22:38]
decimation	well, if that were a hard spec I would agree, need txco or ocxo	[22:38]
decimation	and there's no way around it, if actual human cannot set	[22:38]
williamdunne	From the looks of things, S.MPOE used to have a thousand BTC or so volume per day	[22:38]
williamdunne	Pretty solid	[22:38]
decimation	or we cannot build a trusted network of time sources	[22:38]
asciilifeform	my argument was that this apparently-unsolvable problem can be solved	[22:39]
asciilifeform	if a certain constraint is loosenes	[22:39]
decimation	you mean modifying the bitcoind to accept wider windows of blocks?	[22:39]
BingoBoingo	easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon << This leads you to my world, where my mechinical autowinding watch is always perfectly accurate because I declare it so	[22:39]
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asciilifeform	to have the concept of difficulty, nodes only need to know that time has passed, using a timebase that 1) is independent variable from aggregate hash 2) is prohibitively expensive to manipulate	[22:39]
decimation	BingoBoingo: can you use your winding to predict the sunrise	[22:40]
asciilifeform	i possibly have a scheme for this. but it won't help pogo, because this is no longer bitcoin	[22:40]
asciilifeform	right now i don't know how to help the pogo problem.	[22:40]
mats	recently S.MPOE has stood still	[22:40]
decimation	asciilifeform: you do, it involves hardware	[22:40]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu et al were contemplating a surrender to ntp even.	[22:40]
mats	its a real bummer	[22:40]
decimation	unless you just want to give into ntp	[22:40]
BingoBoingo	decimation: Realtive to UTC, yes. I live about a minute in a half to UTC's future	[22:40]
asciilifeform	decimation: adding any hardware at all will raise the cost to where we no longer have anything over the phoundation.	[22:40]
asciilifeform	and their standard x86 turd boards.	[22:41]
decimation	well, if that's a hard spec, and 'launch into space' is a hard spec, the project is a failure	[22:41]
decimation	unless you are willing to accept the risk of a global ntp/router delay attack	[22:41]
BingoBoingo	to the extent ntp is depended upon by other implementations, it seems ntp servers may need to be polled. If they need to be polled the prolly ought to be polled at arc4random() intervals selecting arc4random() out of the pool each go	[22:43]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: my concern was blackholing	[22:43]
decimation	BingoBoingo: ascii's argument is that method is defeated if enemy controlls isp	[22:43]
BingoBoingo	Serious concern	[22:43]
asciilifeform	where every single ntp query gets picked up by your isp and replaced.	[22:43]
asciilifeform	this is realistic, because nothing but pogo will seriously fail if this were done	[22:44]
asciilifeform	it's a cheap bullet with our name on it	[22:44]
shinohai	T_T	[22:44]
decimation	I dispuse the 'nothing but pogo would fail'	[22:45]
decimation	plenty of shit is poorly engineered into depending on that kind of stuff	[22:45]
asciilifeform	say my isp makes all ntp queries chronically 3 minutes off into the past	[22:45]
BingoBoingo	Only way to truly defeat ISP is mock over the horizon radar which can force PCB to recieve all data as an involuntary antenna.	[22:45]
BingoBoingo	say my isp makes all ntp queries chronically 3 minutes off into the past << Burn a Walmart	[22:45]
asciilifeform	eventually pogo drifts off into neverneverland	[22:45]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: you won't know that you have segmented into a parallel universe	[22:46]
asciilifeform	not like pogo has a screen, where it tells you that it is (or is not) receiving valid blocks	[22:46]
asciilifeform	for that matter, 'you' may be one of mircea_popescu's pogopregnated chixxx	[22:46]
asciilifeform	and have no idea what a block is.	[22:46]
asciilifeform	or what that box he plugged into your wall is for	[22:46]
BingoBoingo	Perhaps L1 and L2 pogo impregnators should herd the impregnated pogos	[22:47]
asciilifeform	all ~100 of us ?	[22:47]
asciilifeform	lol	[22:47]
decimation	no just pogo but all ntp clients	[22:47]
decimation	and such an error, if it ends up driving the clock off by several minutes, would be detectable in a variety of ways	[22:48]
asciilifeform	how?	[22:49]
BingoBoingo	NBC	[22:49]
asciilifeform	detecting an off clock requires another	[22:49]
decimation	well, predicting sunrise for one	[22:49]
BingoBoingo	ABC, FOX, et al	[22:49]
asciilifeform	again with the sun and stars	[22:49]
decimation	some other isp client finds his computer is 'off'	[22:49]
asciilifeform	again with the human eyes and hands.	[22:49]
asciilifeform	i specified a problem. what is the point of saying 'no, let's solve this other trivial problem'	[22:50]
decimation	your scenario would imply that no human looks at the time served by said isp	[22:50]
asciilifeform	i already know how to do that.	[22:50]
decimation	I'm emphasizing the sun because that's the policy by which time is defined	[22:51]
decimation	usg didn't make this policy any more than england did	[22:52]
asciilifeform	sure	[22:52]
decimation	and usg fucking with the way computers distribute time would ultimately be noticed by some innocent bystander	[22:52]
asciilifeform	but we don't have a mechanism of syncing n-bit counters with second resolution across a planet that ~doesn't~ operate at hitler's pleasure.	[22:52]
decimation	don't need second resolution	[22:52]
asciilifeform	decimation: one very obvious way for it to fuck, and be noticed, is to simply fail	[22:53]
decimation	as in, terminate all ntp services?	[22:53]
asciilifeform	aha	[22:53]
asciilifeform	from lack of money to pay the electric bill, say.	[22:53]
decimation	I would also note that if the pogo clock varies in a systematic way (constant frequency error)	[22:54]
decimation	it could be corrected	[22:54]
asciilifeform	as far as i can tell, it does not.	[22:54]
asciilifeform	and the reason is no mystery	[22:54]
asciilifeform	(interrupts vary quite unpredictably)	[22:54]
decimation	yeah, makes sens	[22:54]
decimation	so if the pogo syncs to a random node once per month and keeps time within a few minutes, it'll be fine	[22:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31452 @ 0.00057008 = 17.9302 BTC [-] {2}	[22:55]
decimation	is it vulnerable? yes. more vulnerable than proof-of-work? yes, if in the hands of an idiot	[22:55]
asciilifeform	random node ?	[22:55]
asciilifeform	which also gets to drift ?	[22:56]
decimation	ntp node	[22:56]
decimation	most ntp nodes are tracable to some source (yes often usg) to two layers	[22:56]
decimation	but that usg clock is depended on by and awful lot of shit	[22:56]
decimation	if usg starts messing with gps it would be quickly noticed and shouted at	[22:56]
asciilifeform	decimation: there is no reason why ~all~ ntp servers proper would have to be diddled	[22:57]
asciilifeform	just the queries from known bitcoin nodes	[22:57]
asciilifeform	incl pogo	[22:57]
asciilifeform	not like it's a secret who they are.	[22:57]
decimation	agreed, but to selectively fuck with known bitcoin nodes would imply the deployment of an awful lot of hardware and expertise globally	[22:57]
asciilifeform	tomorrow hitler says 'anybody talking on 8333 gets timewarped'	[22:57]
asciilifeform	won't affect anything else.	[22:58]
decimation	hitler spends $100 mil to do it?	[22:58]
asciilifeform	it's deployed!	[22:58]
asciilifeform	already!	[22:58]
asciilifeform	srsly	[22:58]
asciilifeform	what do you suppose 'narus' makes ?	[22:58]
decimation	you think you could call up your local comcastic office, pretend to be hitler, and demand that a particular protocol be selectively fucked with?	[22:58]
asciilifeform	you - no	[22:58]
asciilifeform	the folks with the key to room 641a - yes	[22:58]
decimation	that's one chokepoint	[22:58]
asciilifeform	they don't work for crapcast either	[22:58]
asciilifeform	they come and go when they want.	[22:59]
decimation	no reason your ntp query need cross it	[22:59]
asciilifeform	it is merely an example	[22:59]
asciilifeform	of how it is done	[22:59]
decimation	yes, and I"m sure it's not cheap	[22:59]
decimation	nor easily mass deployed	[22:59]
asciilifeform	there is a 'room 641a' at every single major infrastructural junction	[22:59]
asciilifeform	certainly in nato-reich	[22:59]
decimation	not every isp office	[22:59]
asciilifeform	and similar in ru, cn	[22:59]
asciilifeform	every backbone.	[22:59]
decimation	so, don't cross backbones	[23:00]
decimation	or, cross several	[23:00]
asciilifeform	and the argument that some backwards isp, somewhere, may not be 'up to date', does not sway me.	[23:00]
BingoBoingo	I guess Bitcoin builds an Argentina, Phillipines, somolia, ISIS backbone and moves geographically	[23:00]
decimation	but your 'fucked with at the isp level' argument falls apart in that case	[23:00]
asciilifeform	at what level the fucking will be done, is debatable	[23:01]
asciilifeform	but that it is doable, and trivial, and can be carried out in such a way as to affect only known bitcoin nodes, seems obvious to me	[23:01]
decimation	I would agree that if the pogo needs to be launched into space, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it knew where it was on the internet topology, especially relative to other bitcoin nodes	[23:02]
decimation	asciilifeform: it's possible but again it requires expertise and equipment	[23:02]
decimation	comcast can barely keeps the lights running	[23:02]
asciilifeform	comcast - sure	[23:02]
asciilifeform	upstream - no	[23:02]
asciilifeform	and this kind of dull, mechanistic diddlage is precisely what usg specializes in	[23:02]
asciilifeform	no imagination needed	[23:02]
asciilifeform	just mutilate packets if regexp matches.	[23:03]
decimation	what usg agency would perform this work domestically?	[23:03]
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asciilifeform	at&t.	[23:04]
decimation	they ain't gonna do it for free	[23:04]
decimation	and 'fucking with bitcoin' is probably pretty low on usg's hitlist (not that it should be so low)	[23:04]
asciilifeform	how the hell would i (or anyone else) know where it is on what list ?	[23:05]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu's intel dept. - possibly	[23:05]
asciilifeform	me? no	[23:05]
asciilifeform	but i don't get to say 'it's low on the list, let's all sleep'	[23:05]
BingoBoingo	I doubt that after today. After the Chicom stockmarket sell embargo and NYSE glitch	[23:05]
decimation	neither do I. but assuming the pogo isn't a complete bust, someone's gonna have to evaluate the risk	[23:06]
asciilifeform	my point is that this kind of attack is not only the kind of thing usg specializes in, but pretty much the only thing they know how to do at all	[23:06]
decimation	how would you know that, if you don't know the hitlist	[23:06]
asciilifeform	can't know. only conjecture.	[23:07]
asciilifeform	based on existing nonsense coming out of the we-don't-know-how-to-break-rsa-yet-agency	[23:07]
asciilifeform	no idea what the ~other~ nsa does	[23:07]
asciilifeform	that gun hasn't publicly fired yet.	[23:07]
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BingoBoingo	!up Vexual	[23:11]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00056898 = 6.2588 BTC [-]	[23:11]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193991 << was linked as 'entomological sample' ! specifically, example of folks 'spinning their wheels'	[23:13]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 23:39:06; mircea_popescu: http://polymatharchives.blogspot.in/2015/01/the-inappropriately-excluded.html << this thing is such bs. if the intelligent need to whine on an obscure blog, and for "society" to GIVE THEM shit they're about as intelligent as a mensa chapter. which isn't all that flattering.	[23:13]
asciilifeform	i bet if some helpful fella gave them a few kg of plastique each, they would put it to good use...	[23:13]
asciilifeform	just as mr stack probably would have	[23:13]
asciilifeform	and what, precisely, ought one expect of folks raised in a zoo?	[23:14]
asciilifeform	how do lions in the zoo get things, other than being 'given' ?	[23:14]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-07-2015#1188651 < a map that demonstrates your point: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/07/mapping-the-us-by-property-value-instead-of-land-area/397841/	[23:16]
assbot	Logged on 05-07-2015 21:44:22; mircea_popescu: that's really the tension here : usians currently use the us like inept argentines: they huddle around the coast and pull their cocks.	[23:16]
assbot	A Map of the U.S. by Property Value Instead of Land Area - CityLab ... ( http://bit.ly/1TmJRPW )	[23:16]
asciilifeform	the coasts are where usg hands out payola.	[23:17]
decimation	"The total value of all the residential property in Kentucky ($300 billion) falls just short of the value of all the housing property in Queens ($317 billion). The housing value of the Upper East Side all by itself is greater than that of six states."	[23:17]
asciilifeform	hence folks live there.	[23:17]
decimation	aye	[23:17]
asciilifeform	it hands it out there for historical reasons (it is where the majority of the chump candidates live, given as that is where the anthill mega-cities are found)	[23:18]
asciilifeform	on account of having been built there back when actual honest commerce was a thing	[23:18]
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asciilifeform	but point of fact is, to ~me~ kentucky may as well be pluto	[23:19]
asciilifeform	and to everyone i know.	[23:19]
BingoBoingo	decimation: Too be fair Kentucky isn't "flat" enough for intentive Monsanto'ing	[23:19]
decimation	asciilifeform: it's actually a pretty nice place	[23:19]
asciilifeform	aha	[23:19]
asciilifeform	pluto is nice too, i hear	[23:20]
asciilifeform	in its own way	[23:20]
decimation	nydwracu pointed out how coast elites treat anywhere 100 miles inland in the us as 'foriegn country'	[23:20]
BingoBoingo	Kentucky is beautiful. Like Southern Illinois, but entirely politically divorced from Chicago aside from Obola	[23:20]
asciilifeform	because it is.	[23:20]
asciilifeform	because wtf can you live on there.	[23:20]
BingoBoingo	nydwracu pointed out how coast elites treat anywhere 100 miles inland in the us as 'foriegn country' << I prefer this arrangement	[23:21]
asciilifeform	that's what 'foreign country' even ~means~, historically	[23:21]
asciilifeform	that one is not wanted there.	[23:21]
asciilifeform	kentucky, or argentina, etc, literally don't need me in particular for anything but 'weight in pork'	[23:21]
asciilifeform	if that.	[23:21]
asciilifeform	doesn't mean that i dislike those places, or their inhabitants	[23:22]
asciilifeform	ar, in particular, i liked very much.	[23:22]
asciilifeform	and the inhabitants.	[23:23]
decimation	yeah, I get it, the meatwot is important	[23:24]
decimation	also being within 'reasonable transport' distance of good food, places of learning, etc	[23:25]
decimation	I predict that if the 'hyperloop' actually works (dubious) it would rot the suburbs around megacities	[23:25]
decimation	a sizable chunk of the wash dc population would move 100-200 miles away if they could commute in 15 minutes	[23:26]
decimation	if not farther	[23:26]
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decimation	!up The20YearIRCloud	[23:28]
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The20YearIRCloud	It's alive!	[23:28]
williamdunne	What's alive?	[23:29]
The20YearIRCloud	Boy I had a crappy day, one of the renters called me and nothing would drain. Only to find out they've been parking a car on the main drain line. I offered to go out rather than my crew to take care of it, 3hrs later and $400 we've determined that it's all due to someone parking on the drain line and actually pushing it out of the fittings.	[23:29]
The20YearIRCloud	The chat!	[23:29]
asciilifeform	wai wat	[23:30]
asciilifeform	these drains are made of rubber ?!	[23:30]
asciilifeform	The20YearIRCloud: how is it even physically possible ?	[23:30]
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asciilifeform	i, for instance, park on top of my house's drain pipe every single day.	[23:30]
decimation	yeah, like did they forget to use pvc cement?	[23:30]
The20YearIRCloud	loose soil, 3000lbs car sitting on it ~10hrs/day	[23:31]
asciilifeform	i know where it is, because the city excavated it last year.	[23:31]
asciilifeform	it is two metres under the asphalt.	[23:31]
asciilifeform	ah	[23:31]
The20YearIRCloud	there was a 8ft PVC section between two clay drain sections	[23:31]
The20YearIRCloud	This was 4ft under soil	[23:31]
decimation	clay drain? Like terra cotta?	[23:31]
The20YearIRCloud	yep	[23:31]
The20YearIRCloud	110 year old drain	[23:32]
asciilifeform	where was this? africa ?	[23:32]
decimation	lul	[23:32]
The20YearIRCloud	still works somewhat well, but parking on it certainly hasn't helped things	[23:32]
The20YearIRCloud	Part of that $400 was to have a guy come out with a camera and inspect the line	[23:32]
decimation	the 'loose soil' must be underneath the pipe	[23:33]
decimation	I would guess the drain is eroding the surrounding soil	[23:33]
The20YearIRCloud	Quite possibly, there's a concrete walkway that's actually sunk down about 6"	[23:34]
decimation	lul	[23:34]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194417 << remember how the spiel went when the highways were built ?	[23:34]
assbot	Logged on 09-07-2015 02:22:22; decimation: a sizable chunk of the wash dc population would move 100-200 miles away if they could commute in 15 minutes	[23:34]
decimation	asciilifeform: except the highways were ultimately not built	[23:34]
asciilifeform	the only thing new infrastructure is used for, in usa, is to pack in more chumps for same kind of life.	[23:34]
asciilifeform	there will simply be more folks who get to drive the obligatory 1-2 hr	[23:34]
decimation	md 200 should be a full freeway, connect with 95 on at least two other river crossings	[23:34]
asciilifeform	and if it were ?	[23:35]
asciilifeform	they'd just put 2x as many 500k houses in.	[23:35]
decimation	asciilifeform: yes but I'm convinced the reason that people live 2 hours away is because of zoning policy	[23:35]
decimation	could easily fit the entire metro area's population inside the beltway (affordably) if you could build 50 story highrises	[23:36]
decimation	but there's this weird need to have 'own country estate' in the us	[23:36]
asciilifeform	not weird at all	[23:36]
asciilifeform	~i~ want to put as much distance as possible between own arse and these folks.	[23:37]
asciilifeform	it makes god's own sense to me	[23:37]
asciilifeform	that they would feel same way.	[23:37]
decimation	actually I agree with you, I feel the same way to some degree	[23:37]
decimation	my theory is that the space you had as a child 'imprints'	[23:37]
asciilifeform	aha	[23:37]
decimation	city kid can live in apartment for life	[23:37]
decimation	suburb kid needs a suburb	[23:37]
The20YearIRCloud	Not all people are like that, in Columbus they're building lots of 30-40 story apartments because people want em	[23:38]
asciilifeform	i grew up in a city	[23:38]
The20YearIRCloud	They're relatively cheap - $150k-$200k in really well-to-do areas, people want em because they're in the middle of everything and cheap	[23:38]
asciilifeform	but it had almost no traffic	[23:38]
The20YearIRCloud	But personally, I'd never want to live there	[23:38]
asciilifeform	so traffic noises drive me batshit	[23:38]
asciilifeform	as do screaming morons	[23:38]
decimation	The20YearIRCloud: yeah but in columbus at least it is legal to build more than 5 stories	[23:38]
asciilifeform	we didn't have those, either	[23:38]
The20YearIRCloud	Correct, why it's cheap	[23:38]
trinque	I spent time on a large farm as a kid, cannot stand the population density of cities	[23:39]
trinque	so naturally I live in one	[23:39]
The20YearIRCloud	I can't wait to go back to a farm setting	[23:39]
trinque	just the background noise is irritating, like living in an engine room	[23:39]
The20YearIRCloud	Yeah	[23:39]
The20YearIRCloud	I don't like that, but i REALLY don't like not being able to stand on the back porch and not see anything	[23:40]
decimation	but this means that there are probably many people who are 'trapped' - desire more space between themselves and others - but cannot move away in order to keep a job	[23:40]
The20YearIRCloud	As it stands now ,if I do that here I see tall grass, a trailer, a half plywood house, then a large agricultural facility	[23:40]
trinque	The20YearIRCloud: ah man, best thing in the world is to not see another human in any direction	[23:40]
decimation	70-80% of the population in cities ?	[23:40]
trinque	but to each his own	[23:40]
asciilifeform	what trinque said	[23:40]
The20YearIRCloud	Off the back porch on the farm, the closest house was 2mi	[23:40]
asciilifeform	except that i also want to not have to see them ever	[23:40]
decimation	asciilifeform: you should buy a farm in kentucky	[23:40]
asciilifeform	that sounds like actual work	[23:41]
asciilifeform	fuck that	[23:41]
The20YearIRCloud	We have areas here in ohio that have less population than many in kentucky	[23:41]
decimation	go 'full perelman'	[23:41]
asciilifeform	perelman, as i understand, lives off his mother's pension.	[23:42]
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trinque	I'm thinking getting some land in Washington state might be ideal	[23:42]
decimation	trinque: not west of the mountains?	[23:42]
trinque	close enough to drive to seattle shortly, but far enough to not know it	[23:42]
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decimation	!up warptangent	[23:43]
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decimation	!up Vexual	[23:43]
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trinque	decimation: not sure, I've yet to spend time east of them	[23:43]
trinque	maybe there's something nice down 90 waiting for me	[23:43]
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phf	i lived 8 hours north of anchorage for 6 months or so, working remote. when i get out of the house in the morning my ears would heart from the silence. best 6 months of my life	[23:44]
asciilifeform	^	[23:44]
trinque	sounds lovely.	[23:44]
The20YearIRCloud	hurt or heart?	[23:44]
The20YearIRCloud	Silence? No wind or animals?	[23:44]
trinque	and the concentration that can be mustered (in my case at least) cannot be matched inside the engine room	[23:45]
phf	The20YearIRCloud: after a bit your start hearing the trees lightly creaking in the wind	[23:45]
The20YearIRCloud	I know on the farm it wasn't really ever quiet, there was always something	[23:45]
The20YearIRCloud	but going from that to the city is very, very hard	[23:46]
asciilifeform	another device that did not exist in the city where i grew up was: the subwoofer	[23:46]
trinque	sure, wind, bugs	[23:46]
trinque	but things your mind is quite used to	[23:46]
decimation	asciilifeform: especially mobile ones?	[23:46]
asciilifeform	any kind	[23:46]
phf	The20YearIRCloud: this was on denali highway which is a kind of a wind tunnel nearby from a glacier. most of it is freezing all the way till mid summer (though i don't know, i spent a winter there)	[23:46]
*	decimation has subwoofers, but attenuates by 30 dB at least	[23:46]
trinque	as opposed to the hiss of hydraulic brakes, blare of horns, rumble of combustion engines	[23:46]
decimation	I find it really annoying to have muddled bass	[23:47]
trinque	bugs I can tune out easily	[23:47]
asciilifeform	it isn't even that su didn't know how to make loudspeakers	[23:47]
asciilifeform	but that the idea of turning one on inside a block of flats...	[23:47]
phf	The20YearIRCloud: but when the wind dies down (mornings mostly) it's what i would call dignified solitude. mountains, quiet. lots of interesting people living within 100 mile range :>	[23:47]
The20YearIRCloud	hmm	[23:48]
phf	http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rw9Z6h3DDMo/TrTY5FJydDI/AAAAAAAAG4Y/m-uVqliksdA/s1600/denali%2Bhwy-6.jpg	[23:54]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1dNhE4G )	[23:54]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193778 << the going rate in that market is a few hundred.	[23:58]
assbot	Logged on 08-07-2015 20:42:45; bagels7: i'll be your slave for a million dollars on a 5 year basis	[23:58]
*	assbot removes voice from The20YearIRCloud	[23:58]
mircea_popescu	an' for that matter the "basis" doesn't work like you imagine it does.	[23:59]
*	funkenstein (~josed@64.223.219.76) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:59]

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