Forum logs for 08 Jul 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't. [00:00]
asciilifeform l337 m4rk3tz [00:00]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Note that in North America gay rights became popular as femal obesity rates spiked [00:00]
decimation lol blockchain.info is still posting 1-size blocks [00:00]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes [00:01]
asciilifeform decimation: link ? [00:01]
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decimation https://blockchain.info/ [00:01]
assbot Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZA5db ) [00:01]
mats lol [00:01]
decimation 2 in the last 30 minutes [00:01]
mats such social commentary [00:01]
asciilifeform ph0rkz!!! [00:01]
decimation I guess. [00:01]
asciilifeform ph0rkr4pht! [00:02]
decimation it would be interesting to know how blockchain.info gets its data [00:02]
BingoBoingo BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't. << She apparently even managed to fuck this up. Reportedly gave friend sad handjob and blackmailed for attention the next day with promise of putting out eventually. Was driven to bar in the ghetto and left (could not run to vehicle in time to stop it) [00:02]
* williamdunne for a while no longer has to worry about getting laid [00:02]
williamdunne decimation: carrier pigeon, although it's suffering with pattern baldness [00:02]
decimation I hope those 'bitcoin core' dumbfucks are happy with the progress they are making [00:02]
BingoBoingo BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes << 31337 social engineering [00:03]
williamdunne It really is remarkable how blockchain.info didn't go down the goxhole, they just consistently break [00:03]
asciilifeform because nobody really relies on it for anything [00:03]
asciilifeform hence failure - no problem [00:03]
asciilifeform https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000abdbee0b1c681c7bd3ebd5753af822fdaf7a6754e154b50 [00:03]
assbot Bitcoin Block #364343 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAcW6 ) [00:03]
williamdunne "MyWallet" ? [00:04]
asciilifeform https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000009ba590de2819dd4b4f7741fc4b9fc9d45c2e1e00d0ca6ec [00:04]
assbot Bitcoin Block #364339 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAdcG ) [00:04]
decimation interesting 364343 was relayed by 65.182.235.207 [00:06]
BingoBoingo williamdunne: When piuk rolled out blockchain.info it was the best block explorer. Once he stopped doing everything it swiftly went to shit and got Andreas'd [00:06]
decimation which is purported to be in canby, oregon [00:06]
decimation wasn't that where the bctc guy lived? [00:07]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: I can't tolerate any of them currently. Blockchain.info is constantly broken, and all the others have these horrible gaudy interfaces. [00:07]
decimation it appears the coinbase one agrees with blockchain.info https://bitcoin.toshi.io/#block [00:08]
assbot Toshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZACM6 ) [00:08]
BingoBoingo williamdunne: And this is what temps me to fuck with running an electrum server. To run a private block explorer accountable only to me when it barfs [00:08]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: no bootstrap plz [00:08]
BingoBoingo WHen have I ever used bootstrap? [00:10]
williamdunne It seems to be a default option, not a personal accusation [00:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.0005515 = 4.9635 BTC [-] [00:10]
williamdunne Qntra style would be lovely <3 [00:10]
asciilifeform http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CEB08E08EEF3C71AEC185767B076C306E945E535BE55A8CAAAB9378A9F7CD4D1 << missed by scoopbot ? [00:11]
assbot Welcome | Phuctor ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAQ5O ) [00:11]
williamdunne asciilifeform: Scoopbot doesn't deal with phuctor, that's trinquebot [00:12]
asciilifeform and what is 'marketplace.i2p' ? [00:12]
asciilifeform ( as seen in http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4FC297377727D7EDA1512181888ECF02A8A5E5BC9B8406B2BF852B84F32FD55A ) [00:12]
williamdunne asciilifeform: I'd presume a marketplace on i2p [00:12]
asciilifeform well sure [00:12]
asciilifeform but ~what~ [00:12]
asciilifeform anybody got a box running i2p? [00:12]
asciilifeform i can't be arsed [00:12]
williamdunne https://www.reddit.com/r/themarketplace/ [00:13]
assbot The Market Place - An Anonymous Market Built To Enable Trustless Transactions. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZB4de ) [00:13]
williamdunne mabbeh that one [00:13]
decimation asciilifeform: it strikes me that your choice of location is to some degree a 'prisoner's dilemma'. [00:18]
asciilifeform ? [00:18]
decimation everyone in your meatwot could probably get a better deal if they lived somewhere cheaper [00:19]
asciilifeform like botswana [00:19]
decimation but 'cooperation' in moving together is much more expensive than 'defection' to the local area [00:19]
decimation hell, west virginia [00:19]
asciilifeform one fella did [00:19]
asciilifeform now he sits in car for 4 hours instead of 2 [00:19]
trinque to be fair, west virginia is a shithole [00:19]
decimation heh well that's not very much moving [00:19]
decimation trinque: sure, but it wouldn't be if people moved there [00:20]
trinque maybe so [00:20]
decimation why do they all defect to the big city every day [00:20]
asciilifeform it would also cost what maryland costs [00:20]
asciilifeform if folks moved there [00:20]
trinque most notable thing I recall about WV is that giant teapot [00:20]
asciilifeform elementary. [00:20]
asciilifeform as soon as you start moving in folks with money, it stops 'being cheap' [00:20]
asciilifeform the rent collectors don't sleep [00:20]
decimation asciilifeform: partially because more dollars are 'created' to bid up assets [00:21]
williamdunne http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33414264 [00:21]
williamdunne Hilarious, he's being charged for this [00:21]
asciilifeform even if dollars were conserved [00:21]
decimation I suspect that problem wouldn't be as pronounced with a hard-banking hard currency [00:21]
assbot Canadian flew over Calgary in chair carried by balloons - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZBMqN ) [00:21]
decimation sure, folks would bid up assets, but the vast majority of bids in the wash dc area are 'zombies' [00:22]
decimation ie usg passthroughs [00:22]
asciilifeform and our collective salaries - aren't ? [00:22]
trinque "Mr Boria has been charged with mischief causing danger to life and could face further charges." << wait... his? [00:22]
decimation heh good point [00:22]
decimation the question is: how much of the money that is 'freshly printed' by the fed or a bank part of the wash dc bid? [00:22]
decimation that's theoretically measurable [00:23]
asciilifeform at this point, i don't regard any aspect of the whole orchestra as honestly measurable [00:23]
asciilifeform other than - just possibly - by the perpetrators [00:23]
williamdunne trinque: Yes, his. Unless they're suggesting his stray garden chair could mysteriously strike someone down [00:23]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778096 << see also [00:23]
assbot Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.' [00:23]
decimation you could multiply direct gov spending by the 'print factor' [00:24]
decimation but that would only capture a portion - it would exclude the portion magicked into existance by banks [00:24]
asciilifeform what does one get from multiplying one work of fiction by another ? [00:24]
decimation heh [00:24]
asciilifeform let's multiply width of unicorn's horn at its base by the length of yeti's cock [00:25]
asciilifeform equals depth of mermaid's snatch ? [00:25]
decimation then map the yeti/uni/heat cock [00:25]
decimation I guess it would be a useful as the map that nyt ran which indicated the density of racists over usa [00:25]
asciilifeform aha [00:26]
* asciilifeform wonders if they recycled map of communists from '50s or bothered to make a new one [00:26]
decimation http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/f-16-and-small-private-plane-collide-in-midair-over-south-carolina.html < usg cares for its people [00:27]
assbot Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCowG ) [00:27]
asciilifeform http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/gun-shaped-iphone-case-is-a-terrible-idea-police-officials-warn.html << in other lulz [00:28]
assbot Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCuEv ) [00:28]
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asciilifeform 'Mr. Schumer said a federal law requires toy or imitation guns to feature a highly visible orange mark at the end of the barrel to identify them as harmless. Since the phone case does not have the marker, he said, he would work with customs officials to block its import and sale.' << l0l! srsly? [00:29]
asciilifeform 1) spray orange paint on 'thompson' 2) pull out in front of police 3) ??? 4) profit!!!111! [00:30]
decimation asciilifeform: note that the police are rarely punished for shooting innocents [00:32]
decimation http://users.humboldt.edu/mstephens/hate/hate_map.html# < note that 'nigger' correlates with large black populations, similar for others [00:32]
assbot Hate Map ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCQv1 ) [00:32]
asciilifeform latest memo to police almost certainly reads 'plz shoot only white, thx' [00:33]
mats 'chink' doesn't correlate to california at all [00:34]
mats or any place with large asian populations that i'm aware of [00:34]
mats worst app ever [00:35]
asciilifeform mats is surprised to discover that unicorn's snatch depth does not correlate with mermaid's cock length ? [00:35]
decimation mats: note that the 'normalize by the number of tweets' [00:35]
decimation thus effectively discounting the liberal population centers [00:35]
asciilifeform thttp://www.hardforkcoin.org << for entomologists only!111!!1 [00:36]
decimation so the self-serving bastards can come to the conclusion that those rednecks out in the sticks are the real racists [00:36]
mats so what i need an inverse contrast map [00:36]
mats and avoid everything else [00:36]
decimation heh yeah [00:36]
mats thats a lot of america [00:36]
mats but i knew that already [00:36]
funkenstein_ metastudies of tweets <-- totally useless waste of time [00:38]
decimation funkenstein_: my favorite study of the issue: http://unamusementpark.com/2011/07/blacks-ruin-fourth-of-july-in-baltimore-media-censor-race/ [00:39]
assbot Unamusement Park » Blog Archive » Blacks ruin Fourth of July in Baltimore; media censor race ... ( http://bit.ly/1HMCsW0 ) [00:39]
decimation guy found tweets by black people in baltimore back during fourth of july 2011, when there was violence [00:40]
asciilifeform isn't that the fella who got 'beaten to death by accident' in a johannesburg police station ? [00:40]
decimation heh it might be [00:40]
asciilifeform i recall the liberast blogosphere laughing maniacally about this [00:40]
asciilifeform 'racist gets just deserts' [00:40]
decimation he seems to have posted in janurary [00:42]
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asciilifeform perhaps it was the one who did 'across difficult country' [00:43]
asciilifeform i forget. [00:43]
asciilifeform don't give much of a shit any more [00:43]
mats i'm enjoying the tweets on that link, decimation [00:44]
mats ebonics has so much... variety [00:44]
funkenstein_ i talk with criminal slang [00:44]
funkenstein_ i read some tweets once, it was when dorian was being collected [00:46]
funkenstein_ after that i vowed never again [00:46]
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decimation mats: amusingly 'unamusement park' is totally blacklisted from all search engines [00:48]
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decimation !up Vexual [00:52]
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funkenstein_ reminds me of Eddie Murphy's grandmother: "What time is it?" [00:55]
funkenstein_ it might be an interesting simulation to see what would happen if not only all nodes but all miners had no real clock [00:56]
funkenstein_ difficulty would stay constant I suppose [00:56]
funkenstein_ well the latitude is easy [00:58]
funkenstein_ for longitude, i believe there is a book by sobel or something [00:58]
decimation http://asteroidoccultation.com/asteroid.htm < you can see local asteroid occulations [00:59]
assbot Asteroid Occultation Predictions (Current) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEfl2 ) [00:59]
decimation you can calculate them yourself with winblows turdware and usg provided emphemeris data http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/occult4.htm [00:59]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEigZ ) [00:59]
decimation longitude requires knowledge of time [01:00]
funkenstein_ nothing under magnitude 10, makes it difficult on my canoe [01:01]
funkenstein_ but I like it anyway [01:02]
funkenstein_ figure of speech [01:03]
decimation http://www.amazon.com/Long-Term-Almanac-2000-2050-Reduction/dp/0914025104 < tables to 2050 [01:04]
assbot Long Term Almanac 2000-2050: For the Sun and Selected Stars With Concise Sight Reduction Tables, 2nd Edition: Geoffrey Kolbe: 9780914025108: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1HMFRnX ) [01:04]
decimation around 40 n [01:10]
decimation yeah, and uk is even father [01:11]
decimation farther [01:11]
decimation usg charges for their nautical almanacs [01:13]
decimation http://bookstore.gpo.gov/agency/1449 [01:13]
assbot Nautical Almanac Office | U.S. Government Bookstore ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEU67 ) [01:13]
decimation australian? [01:13]
decimation yeah uk is roughly 50-60 n [01:13]
decimation london is 51 n [01:14]
decimation it's relatively warm because of the gulf stream [01:14]
decimation ottawa, canada is roughly 45 n for instance [01:15]
decimation but much colder [01:15]
decimation 50 s is well south of tasmania [01:16]
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decimation that's probably why nobody lives on macquarie island [01:17]
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decimation yeah apparently they killed all the mammals [01:20]
ben_vulpes http://people.csail.mit.edu/hofma/Assets/Thesis_12_02_2005.pdf << okay now this is cool [01:21]
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mats man [01:29]
mats i set up a raid0 with two SSDs [01:29]
mats and windoze updates on this box still takes hours wtf [01:29]
mats o/ [01:30]
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ben_vulpes > windows [01:39]
ben_vulpes mk [01:39]
ben_vulpes help i am 1200 lines behind [01:39]
mircea_popescu have less sex. [01:39]
ben_vulpes do y'all eventually get to why averaging out umpteen 2016 blocks won't work in place of timekeeping? [01:43]
asciilifeform !b 3 [01:43]
assbot Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2J2VN7A.txt ) [01:43]
decimation about 80% of it: use ntp! no time itself is owned by usg and so are all servers and isps! [01:43]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: for the same reason pulling one's cock doesn't work as a means of flight [01:43]
ben_vulpes what? [01:44]
asciilifeform 'in place of timekeeping' [01:44]
ben_vulpes sorry, diff adjustments. [01:44]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: they take place with wall clock as invariant [01:45]
asciilifeform i spent all morning trying to hammer this into thick headz [01:45]
asciilifeform if you plug block times into wall clock, letting the former adjust the latter, you've plugged arse into mouth [01:45]
ben_vulpes made good progress i see [01:45]
asciilifeform and are no longer using classical bitcoin [01:45]
ben_vulpes alas. [01:46]
ben_vulpes the thing is miserably bad anyways, why would anyone want to use it? [01:46]
asciilifeform still lost on me [01:46]
ben_vulpes anyways, how do you plan to handle this on pogos? [01:47]
asciilifeform no idea [01:47]
asciilifeform left it to ben_vulpes to solve [01:47]
ben_vulpes you know i'm not even convinced a node *should* be stood up without human intervention. [01:48]
asciilifeform then shouldn't have any interest in pogo [01:48]
asciilifeform because whole fucking point of it is that and only that. [01:48]
ben_vulpes well "should" is a strong word [01:48]
asciilifeform point of pogo is to allow well-meaning but illiterate or even stupid people to run therealbitcoin. [01:49]
asciilifeform (and don't forget the merely lazy) [01:49]
decimation ben_vulpes: it seemed that there was some some concensus around the idea of randomly selecting a small set of ntp servers out of a large pre-defined set [01:49]
decimation this doesn't solve the "pogo clock is shit" problem [01:49]
asciilifeform except then danielpbarron reminded us that this will have to happen regularly [01:49]
asciilifeform because the thing drifts to all hell [01:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68400 @ 0.00055147 = 37.7205 BTC [-] {2} [01:50]
asciilifeform (marvell chipset ~has~ rtc, but the vendor omitted the 32kHz crystal and power source.) [01:50]
ben_vulpes i'm sure moreso under load [01:50]
asciilifeform so it uses interrupt-based timing, like msdos [01:50]
asciilifeform aha, ben_vulpes has it [01:50]
decimation which means continous correction is nearly required [01:50]
ben_vulpes myeah, i see that. [01:51]
decimation asciilifeform: as to ass-to-mouth system, it depends on your error model for thblock timestamps [01:51]
asciilifeform arse-to-mouth is a strictly fact-of thing [01:51]
decimation imagine each miner has his own cesium clock [01:51]
asciilifeform and meet in the flesh to sync it ? [01:52]
asciilifeform let's also imagine dragons. [01:52]
asciilifeform try to grasp why political time is a fiction [01:52]
asciilifeform and why rsa signatures do not make it less of one [01:52]
decimation asciilifeform: it's really hard to imagine when < 100 ns accuracy is nearly freely and reliably avaialable [01:52]
asciilifeform picture the proverbial devil in the cable. he perhaps cannot diddle your packets (because you signed them, and have traded pubkeys in person) but he can... delay them [01:52]
asciilifeform as long as he likes [01:53]
asciilifeform and also can replay. [01:53]
asciilifeform the accuracy doesn't matter because you have no way of knowing whether the above have been done to you [01:53]
asciilifeform and when [01:53]
asciilifeform much of our thought takes place in an imaginary world where communication is instantaneous, perfectly reliable, and perfectly incorruptible. but we do not actually live in that world. [01:55]
asciilifeform nor do we get the luxury of precise, predictable delta from that world. [01:55]
decimation ntp has provisions against replay and deplay attacks [01:57]
asciilifeform replay i can see [01:57]
asciilifeform but delay ? [01:57]
asciilifeform how ? [01:57]
asciilifeform let me guess, by comparing the behaviour of one node with others [01:57]
asciilifeform aka lifting yourself up by own cock. [01:57]
asciilifeform in my expected battlefield, chances are that either none of your links are sybils, or ALL OF THEM ARE [01:58]
asciilifeform comparing a subset of your field of vision with the rest does nothing against the latter. [01:58]
decimation plus the behaviour of one node over time [01:59]
asciilifeform can be perfectly consistent [01:59]
asciilifeform while leading you straight to hell [01:59]
asciilifeform all of this goes back to the 'protocol vs promises' discussion [02:00]
asciilifeform it is possible to count the pulses of a pulsar, of cesium atom, of quartz, etc [02:00]
asciilifeform but as soon as you ask another person 'what time is it' you are playing political games [02:01]
decimation http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/onwire.html The symmetric modes operate using a sequence of rounds, each consisting of a transmit packet followed by a receive packet, but either of both of these packets could be lost. A round is correct if both packets are correctly received. In order to verify correctness of the protocol, it is necessary to prove a liveness assertion; that is, the protocol always yields a correct round even if after [02:01]
asciilifeform there is not actually a way out of this [02:01]
assbot Object not found! ... ( http://bit.ly/1NN9O7t ) [02:01]
mircea_popescu you know i'm not even convinced a node *should* be stood up without human intervention. << this may be true. [02:01]
asciilifeform ^ then there ought to be 100 nodes, running on 'microvax' [02:02]
mircea_popescu and the followin line does not follow. some intelligent people are poor, or more to wit : some poor people are (allegedly) intelligent. i doub this is true. but if it were, pogo is their way out. [02:02]
asciilifeform because that's how many people alive are ~actually qualified~ [02:02]
mircea_popescu and if they fail to find it, or to take it, you have no case. [02:02]
mircea_popescu point of pogo is to allow well-meaning but illiterate or even stupid people to run therealbitcoin. << no. well meaning stupid is the LAST thing we want. i'd rather import us academia. [02:02]
asciilifeform then wtf is the point [02:02]
mircea_popescu what you want is the alleged minialfs who exist. people who supposedly could use the head, but somehow magically "not enough fuel" [02:03]
asciilifeform and if it has to be blessed with the magical breath of life of intelligence every time mains power flickers, it is a proverbial 'assembly line requiring ph.d.s' to borrow from al schwartz [02:03]
asciilifeform i.e. a sad joke [02:03]
mircea_popescu now this is true [02:03]
mircea_popescu but notice that this does not run as far as the previous [02:03]
asciilifeform that's all i was trying to say [02:03]
mircea_popescu aite. [02:03]
asciilifeform there is also cuckoldry aspect here [02:04]
asciilifeform one ought to be able to drop pogos on a dumb corp's net [02:04]
asciilifeform and have them operate [02:04]
asciilifeform no shortage of eligible cuckolds and cuckolders for this [02:05]
asciilifeform but it has to be practical [02:05]
decimation I view the firewall/nat problem as much bigger [02:05]
mircea_popescu if you can do that, comandeer a server. [02:05]
mircea_popescu less noticeable than "wtf is this new item" [02:05]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: many, many more people who can 'commandeer' a broom closet with ethernet [02:05]
asciilifeform believe. [02:05]
asciilifeform and hardly ever anyone asks 'what is this' [02:05]
mircea_popescu so no, i do not believe pogo has anything to do with http://trilema.com/open-parasitic-p2p-relay [02:05]
assbot [OPEN] Parasitic P2P Relay on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaB8D ) [02:05]
asciilifeform not directly. [02:05]
mircea_popescu also in the news : the well rounded education. http://41.media.tumblr.com/00c3d0c2cdb22bedb8754888b020266e/tumblr_mtfjsjpKCf1ryftdoo1_1280.jpg [02:06]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaCJC ) [02:06]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: you need a million tyler durdens. [02:06]
ben_vulpes and they *can* bless a pogo. [02:06]
asciilifeform i thought those just set things on fire ? [02:06]
ben_vulpes and pogo is? [02:07]
decimation http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-mob-technology-consultants-help-drug-traffickers/ < "The device they built looked like a European version of a power strip. Tucked inside a 15-by-5-inch casing was a tiny Linux computer running powerful hacking software called Metasploit. The pwnie sent out data via cellular networks, which meant they could be accessed from anywhere." [02:07]
assbot The Mob's IT Department | Bloomberg Business ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaNVl ) [02:07]
asciilifeform a land mine that has to be rebooted by hand every few weeks is a sad joke. [02:07]
asciilifeform i stand by this. [02:07]
decimation maybe the land mine reboots you [02:07]
asciilifeform decimation: not only classic, but so cliche that there are 1,001 commercial copies [02:07]
mircea_popescu " running powerful hacking software called Metasploit" [02:07]
decimation http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114367/ [02:07]
assbot Planète hurlante (1995) - IMDb ... ( http://bit.ly/1NNaSbF ) [02:07]
mircea_popescu who the fuck still reads these things [02:07]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, actually, it's a good idea. [02:08]
mircea_popescu i'd like land mines like that. so would every army out there. [02:08]
decimation apparently some mobster in amsterdam recruited a couple of nerds to exploit shipping companies [02:08]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you want them on the other side, aha [02:08]
asciilifeform shoot the idiots while they crawl around rebooting. [02:08]
mircea_popescu no, the problem with landmines atm is that they can't be safely defused [02:08]
mircea_popescu if you got 100% guaranteed 2 week only mines, o boy. [02:09]
asciilifeform the 'safe defuse with key' thing already exists [02:09]
mircea_popescu you'd be rich with this. fo realz. [02:09]
asciilifeform notice, not popular [02:09]
mircea_popescu cuz not reliable. [02:09]
asciilifeform dun think thats why [02:09]
asciilifeform rather, because winblowz [02:09]
mircea_popescu a 99.999% success rate is the last thing you want. [02:09]
mircea_popescu drop 1mn mines, get killed 10 times. [02:09]
asciilifeform this is sop btw [02:09]
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asciilifeform ask folks who work with frags [02:09]
asciilifeform there is a certain statistic for how many have, e.g., 1sec fuse [02:10]
asciilifeform (if rated is 5) [02:10]
asciilifeform 'get killed 10 times' is actually doing pretty well ahead of the curve! [02:10]
decimation yeah plenty of folks die trying to learn how to throw gernades [02:11]
asciilifeform the reason, afaik, why 'defuse with key' did not catch on is a ~well-founded~ distrust of computer [02:11]
asciilifeform 'computer', to an experienced commander, means 'twerp will cast a spell and enemy will walk clean across, shredding you' [02:11]
asciilifeform this is what 25 yrs of winblowz did to the mind [02:12]
asciilifeform it'll be generations after a sane computer exists that this kind of thinking even gets a chance of drawing to a close. [02:12]
decimation also 'we need soldiers who can do that' [02:12]
ben_vulpes want a fucking WALL POSTER << codebase isn't that bad, should be doable by hand :P [02:13]
asciilifeform for contrast: i just finished a neat little book (ru) on early artillery [02:13]
asciilifeform early cannoneers accepted double-digit chances of being blown up by own barrel [02:13]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: go, do [02:13]
ben_vulpes no, u [02:13]
asciilifeform then swear with your life that it's 100% covered [02:13]
asciilifeform 'isn't that bad' l0l [02:14]
ben_vulpes heh [02:14]
asciilifeform decimation: re: 'round trip' ntp - you still are at the mercy of local clock's accuracy when computing the trip time [02:16]
ben_vulpes haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant << see also gitlab [02:16]
asciilifeform if your local clock is shit, i can still induce you to rely on it more, more [02:16]
asciilifeform and drift. [02:16]
decimation yes, true [02:16]
ben_vulpes vast quantities of braindamage. [02:16]
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decimation ultimately there's no substitute for good hardware [02:17]
asciilifeform i am trying - and apparently failing - to make the point that there is no such thing as 'good hardware' for finding out 'what time' it is on ~my~ atomic clock from across an ocean. [02:17]
asciilifeform just so happens that the universe is 'bad hardware' for that. [02:17]
asciilifeform even before you add a war [02:18]
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decimation and yet, even usg manages to keep orbital rb clocks ticking [02:18]
ben_vulpes phf: No, not yet. On OpenBSD I'm running an 0.7.2 derivative with LibreSSL 2.0 just to see how it behaves. << how's the libressl build going? [02:18]
asciilifeform decimation: timebases! [02:18]
asciilifeform not clocks [02:18]
asciilifeform try to grasp the difference [02:18]
asciilifeform and notice how easy it is to spoof'em [02:19]
asciilifeform the thing is a house of cards [02:19]
decimation if your point is that they are centrally disciplined that's probably true [02:20]
asciilifeform not only [02:20]
asciilifeform but defenseless against a kid with sdr card. [02:20]
ben_vulpes * williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation... [02:20]
asciilifeform chunk of meat in the desert, that flies have not found yet [02:20]
decimation at any rate, your objection to coordinating clocks seems to boil down to "can't carry messages of a known latency over spacetime" [02:21]
decimation how is this not the case? [02:21]
asciilifeform if we were in space war, could probably carry on with something like the naive notion of clocks [02:22]
asciilifeform limited only by sr, etc [02:22]
asciilifeform but we are not in space. [02:22]
asciilifeform but in a hell, with devils [02:23]
asciilifeform on every wire. [02:23]
decimation so your objection boils down to 'enemy controls means of communication' [02:23]
asciilifeform aha. [02:23]
decimation which is a reasonable point [02:23]
decimation but is applicable to the entire bitcoin enterprise equally [02:23]
asciilifeform it is not. [02:23]
asciilifeform because proof-of-work. [02:23]
asciilifeform i can tell a zero-diff block and so can you [02:23]
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asciilifeform some things cannot be faked. [02:24]
asciilifeform rsa also exists, and this prevents certain other spurious items [02:24]
asciilifeform but these do not add up to a trustworthy clock. [02:24]
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decimation this only emphasizes the point that there needs to be alternate communication media available [02:25]
decimation ionosphere will relay for free, cannot be pwned by usg [02:25]
asciilifeform most fundamental problem is that distributed clocks are infinitely sybilable. [02:25]
asciilifeform how the fuck do i know what is on the other end of ionosphere? [02:25]
asciilifeform man, or usg gnome ? [02:25]
decimation you just said, rsa can solve that problem [02:25]
asciilifeform only if i'm personally friends with fella who owns clock [02:26]
decimation indeed. [02:26]
asciilifeform and the wall time i want to know is specifically his [02:26]
decimation or he's in your wot somehow [02:26]
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decimation if 99% of miners use usg time, what's the use of wot-time? [02:26]
asciilifeform if 99% of miners use gavincoin and spv, what is the use of therealbitcoin ? [02:27]
decimation excellent question [02:27]
asciilifeform i suspect that mircea_popescu might answer that it is for the next set of miners [02:27]
asciilifeform after the current set gets ddt sprayed on them [02:28]
asciilifeform like all locusts deserve [02:28]
decimation the idea of a crypto-radio-clock intrigues me [02:29]
decimation I have a few sketches for such a thing, but I can't get around the problem of fixed keys that need to be distributed to listeners [02:29]
asciilifeform i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks. [02:30]
asciilifeform at least, clocks in the usual political sense. [02:30]
decimation that auto-scaling-difficulty thing seems crazy though [02:30]
decimation at least on a per-block basis [02:30]
asciilifeform it is clearly not the solution [02:30]
asciilifeform i linked to it to illustrate the sheer batshit [02:30]
decimation heh [02:30]
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asciilifeform the solution is to force the miners themselves into behaving like a pendulum with a period from which they, collectively, deviate at their peril. [02:31]
asciilifeform i promise to explain this later. [02:31]
decimation sounds like it would involve incrementing the protocol version [02:31]
asciilifeform it absolutely cannot work with classical bitcoin [02:32]
decimation but it is an interesting idea [02:32]
asciilifeform and thus i am not entirely sure who would find it interesting here, and why [02:32]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Still sync'd on BritneyChain [02:32]
asciilifeform basic idea involves 'left-handed' and 'right-handed' miners, with game-theoretical reward matrix of being one depending on the first derivative in the hashing power of the other. [02:33]
asciilifeform still trying to model this. [02:33]
ben_vulpes i think mircea_popescu designed something like that for eulora [02:34]
asciilifeform did he ? [02:34]
asciilifeform link ? [02:34]
ben_vulpes players vs. the game. conversation in ars. [02:34]
asciilifeform hm [02:34]
asciilifeform i suppose he can answer when reads log.. [02:34]
ben_vulpes balancing of rewards for being mage/barbarian/etc over time [02:35]
asciilifeform essentially you want the entire network to have a 'resonant frequency' [02:35]
asciilifeform which can now be your timebase. [02:35]
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asciilifeform why settle for little quartz crystals [02:36]
asciilifeform when you can use a planet-sized resonator. [02:36]
decimation that reminds me of schumann resonances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schumann_resonances [02:36]
assbot Schumann resonances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1IIq0aS ) [02:36]
asciilifeform decimation: i'm still waiting to read a non-batshit explanation of schumann [02:37]
asciilifeform (was also thinking of it earlier today) [02:37]
decimation hehe [02:37]
decimation it's lightning sprites and earthquakes [02:37]
decimation actually I suspect the solar wind buffeting the magnetosphere is a factor [02:37]
asciilifeform what i meant was, i'd like to see a rational calculation of why the freq. [02:38]
asciilifeform until then, it's voodo [02:38]
decimation this crazy czech runs a vaccum-pendulum radio clock http://ok0epb.nagano.cz/index.php?page=Main+page/ [02:39]
assbot Main page - OK0EPB - 7 039,4 kHz ... ( http://bit.ly/1IIqgXm ) [02:39]
asciilifeform state-of-the-art till the '50s iirc [02:39]
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* asciilifeform bbl [02:42]
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ag3nt_zer0 !rate trinque 1 very helpful to noob [03:25]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/c39f0df9608c7058 [03:25]
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ag3nt_zer0 !rate shinohai 1 great help to noob [03:26]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/49ae2cc4cb75f970 [03:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84300 @ 0.00054193 = 45.6847 BTC [-] {4} [03:27]
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trinque ag3nt_zer0: thanks guy [03:37]
trinque ben_vulpes: so pipelinedb turned out to be YC shitware [03:37]
trinque http://www.pipelinedb.com/ [03:37]
assbot PipelineDB—The Streaming SQL Database ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjMpkj ) [03:37]
trinque all they did can be done with triggers, background workers and materialized views [03:38]
trinque and they had the nerve to *RENAME POSTGRESQL TO SOMETHING ELSE* [03:38]
trinque meanwhile they did not do the one thing that might've been interesting (that I can see), which would've been to fire pg_notify events when the results of a given view change [03:40]
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punkman http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-08/china-trade-halts-hit-2-2-trillion-as-state-intervention-fails [04:03]
assbot China Stock Sellers Frozen Out of 71% of Market - Bloomberg Business ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjP4KO ) [04:03]
punkman "The eurozone has given Greece until Thursday to present new proposals to secure a deal with creditors, and has called a full EU summit for Sunday." [04:08]
mircea_popescu yep, it's the end of the world. [04:18]
mircea_popescu after this unwinds 1929 will look like glbse by comparison. [04:19]
punkman I'll stock up on Tetris http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27846-tetris-blocks-traumatic-flashbacks-even-after-the-memory-is-fixed.html [04:19]
assbot Tetris blocks traumatic flashbacks even after the memory is fixed - health - 06 July 2015 - New Scientist ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjR4mf ) [04:19]
punkman lots of greek banks in the balkans, I wonder what's gonna happen with those [04:24]
punkman http://bigstory.ap.org/article/e2a57c5e809f4da3a46aa7c1ba94bf10/exposed-greek-banks-balkans-brace-trouble [04:27]
assbot Exposed to Greek banks, Balkans brace for trouble ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjRY22 ) [04:27]
mircea_popescu PatentChina 1 hour ago [04:29]
mircea_popescu imagine what will happen if month later no china crash is seen? but USA has advantage that it will never feel shame. one lie does not come true, there is another one. and in the end they can still say china has hacked usa without any evidences. Repeating lies 1000 times, it becomes truth. that is how USA invaded Iraq. [04:29]
mircea_popescu lol [04:29]
mircea_popescu anyway, hopefully they manage to prop it, because if they do not and people start unwinding us holdings on the grounds of the massive yuan profits to be thus made, that's that. [04:31]
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mircea_popescu !up ValentinJesse [04:34]
-assbot- You voiced ValentinJesse for 30 minutes. [04:34]
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* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [12:47]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com || http://log.bitcoin-assets.com || http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com || http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com [12:47]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [12:47]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [12:47]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform why would they fire anyone ? [12:48]
mircea_popescu they're lucky anyone at all wants to work for them as it is. [12:48]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193020 << sure, this is a fact. [12:51]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 05:09:39; asciilifeform: early cannoneers accepted double-digit chances of being blown up by own barrel [12:51]
shinohai heh: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806720 [12:52]
danielpbarron jurov> danielpbarron: you tried to feed it to 0.5.3.1 << is it possible? when I type 'bitcoind help' I do not see the "send raw signed transaction" command [12:52]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193059 << myeah. [12:53]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 05:19:44; asciilifeform: it is not. [12:53]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron iirc asciilifeform made a patch [12:53]
mircea_popescu o nm that was fpr whole blocks [12:53]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193066 << i would not bet on that. [12:54]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 05:21:24; decimation: ionosphere will relay for free, cannot be pwned by usg [12:54]
mircea_popescu nah jurov i recall people using their own tools for that throughout [12:54]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193079 << miners have no identity. [12:55]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 05:24:07; asciilifeform: after the current set gets ddt sprayed on them [12:55]
mircea_popescu they are the exact equivalent of materiel. the humvees the usg lost to isis work for isis just as well. [12:55]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193083 << this is rank nonsense. to be money it will have to handle time. [12:57]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 05:26:05; asciilifeform: i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks. [12:57]
danielpbarron > bitcoind: Argument list too long << my 0.7.2 node didn't like it [12:57]
mircea_popescu what you're saying is basically "i'm more interested in food that doesn't rely on being digested" [12:57]
danielpbarron i don't think it's even checking the validity of the tx, and is instead rejecting the hex string as being too long; I can get my 0.5.3 node to give the same error and it doesn't recognize the method [13:01]
mircea_popescu lol 0.7 implemented tx manipulation that doesn't work on 1mb sized txn ? [13:02]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193153 << better than the queen gets. [13:07]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 09:00:25; cazalla: good logs, good meal, no good wine to go with it but 2/3 ain't bad eh [13:07]
jurov danielpbarron i tried electrum, it parsed tx properly [13:08]
jurov but broadcast error: {u'message': u'64: tx-size', u'code': -26} [13:08]
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williamdunne http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193046 << nah, I wasn't the one being asphyxiated, and the marks are not the result of it [13:10]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 05:16:27; ben_vulpes: * williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation... [13:10]
gabriel_laddel it's okay, no one here will judge you :p [13:12]
* williamdunne pondering on confessing to my skat fetish [13:13]
gabriel_laddel ;; ud skat [13:13]
gribble http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=skat | skat. taking a shit in someones mouth and having them eat it. I love getting a big load of skat in my mouth its so good. by skat eater September 20, 2003. 419 333. [13:13]
mircea_popescu o.o [13:13]
mircea_popescu ;;google scatman [13:13]
gribble THE SCATMAN - Scatman John HD1080p - YouTube: ; Scatman (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-bop) Official Video HD -Scatman John ...: ; Scatman John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: [13:13]
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williamdunne http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/07/us-usa-crime-childporn-idUSKCN0PH24C20150707 [13:22]
williamdunne North [13:22]
williamdunne Carolina [13:22]
assbot FBI seized child porn website with 215,000 users: court filing [13:23]
williamdunne Server [13:23]
gabriel_laddel what are cat cables and how do I network computers together without a web browser. [13:26]
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williamdunne You've got to connect the CAT 3 BSD cable into your Universal Parallel Networking port and install the latest ApacheBSD drivers, and then BGP route your HardDrive into the global local network, repeating these steps for each computer on the network. And once this is complete you plug cables into each of your available body holes and pray for IP issuance, prior to jamming each cable into your nearest USB hub [13:29]
jurov that reads like eulora recipes [13:30]
gabriel_laddel oh, sorry, I should have made it clear I was referring to the child pornography thing [13:31]
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williamdunne jurov: Well, I'm employable [13:32]
gernika mod6 I've attempted syncing on OpenBSD again and am now past block 168000 and have reached 185126. It's going very very slowly though. [13:33]
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gabriel_laddel !up _biO_ [13:33]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00057258 = 15.5169 BTC [+] [13:34]
ben_vulpes buenos dias [13:35]
gabriel_laddel hola [13:35]
gabriel_laddel como estas? [13:36]
ben_vulpes muy bien [13:36]
ben_vulpes ¿y tu, comrade? [13:36]
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gabriel_laddel fenomenal [13:37]
ben_vulpes ¿de veras? ¿porque? [13:37]
mircea_popescu companero ? compadre ? [13:37]
ben_vulpes 'twas a sovietism [13:38]
gabriel_laddel Aterricé un trabajo [13:38]
gabriel_laddel writing CL + mcclim [13:38]
mircea_popescu the sovietism is tovarash [13:38]
gabriel_laddel go me [13:38]
ben_vulpes oh fuck you srsly [13:39]
mircea_popescu the world is not my fault! [13:39]
ben_vulpes not you, gabriel_laddel [13:39]
mircea_popescu olol [13:39]
ben_vulpes gabriel_laddel: let me tell you of the salt mines of my homeworld... [13:40]
mod6 <+gernika> mod6 I've attempted syncing on OpenBSD again and am now past block 168000 and have reached 185126. It's going very very slowly though. << good to hear though [13:40]
gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: go on ahead [13:40]
ben_vulpes there is a SaaS that handles users for people who for whatever reason don't want to stand up their own services and servers. [13:40]
ben_vulpes developers working with this service can alter its behavior by providing it 'node' code that it executes on login/registration events [13:40]
ben_vulpes their sandbox provides precisely one map of dummy data. [13:41]
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ben_vulpes it is not configurable in any way. [13:41]
ben_vulpes the suggested way to cram code into their orifices is by pasting it into text fields. [13:41]
ben_vulpes one can configure post-commit hooks in git, but their logic importer a) only works with github and b) only works with public repositories. [13:41]
gabriel_laddel ... [13:42]
ben_vulpes now on one hand that this thing doesn't give programmers any handles to alter test data is fine, in that it forces one to either work in a js repl or you know /actually write tests/ [13:42]
ben_vulpes otoh [13:42]
ben_vulpes braindamage. [13:42]
ben_vulpes anyways i don't believe you nobody gets paid to write common lisp lalala i can't hear you [13:43]
gabriel_laddel I suggest you don't contemplate the loper device. [13:43]
gabriel_laddel it might be a danger to your health [13:43]
ben_vulpes you say that as though there were an option. [13:43]
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jurov i daresay loper machine depends on solved halting problem [13:49]
mod6 359k+ [13:49]
gabriel_laddel jurov: how so? [13:49]
gabriel_laddel jurov: the routing can't be that difficult [13:49]
* DanielBTC (~DanielBTC@187.56.52.139) has joined #bitcoin-assets [13:49]
jurov it's supposed to predict resources exhaustion at any time so that operator can be alerted [13:49]
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gabriel_laddel jurov: No it isn't. It just eats all required resources and (maybe) returns. [13:50]
gabriel_laddel (I think) [13:50]
gabriel_laddel What happens if I (loop while t do ...) on a von n. arch? it just runs forever. Same thing. [13:51]
gabriel_laddel Don't do that. [13:51]
gabriel_laddel Now, I think the "language constructs" map directly to routing logic, so the AST "unrolls" onto the hardware [13:52]
gabriel_laddel but I've not sat down to work it out [13:52]
williamdunne Lol [13:52]
williamdunne One of the "lizardsquad" guys just got charged with 50,700 offences [13:52]
jurov if i learned anything from my haskell stint, it's how computer is utterly bad to manage its memory and other resources [13:53]
jurov even if you specify in most precise detail how to do stuff without side effects, you still have to hold its hand in order to not exhaust the memory [13:54]
mircea_popescu it's supposed to predict resources exhaustion at any time so that operator can be alerted << in principle machine does not have to proceed before it wants to. [13:54]
mircea_popescu i am sure gabriel_laddel proposed "don't do that" won' cut it with alf - but i am also sure a "sometimes warn before" behaviour would be acceptable. [13:55]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.157 = 1.099 BTC [-] {2} [13:59]
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asciilifeform !up ascii_field [14:00]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [14:00]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193223 << there are not so many of these. [14:01]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 15:44:41; mircea_popescu: they're lucky anyone at all wants to work for them as it is. [14:01]
mircea_popescu ahahaha wut ? [14:01]
mircea_popescu dude get out, they're the website of 2015. every two bit 20something schmuck with two friends and a girlfriend has started one, last year. [14:01]
ascii_field places for folks to write malware and get serious clean money for it [14:02]
mircea_popescu there is at least one million of them. i have stopped even trying to count past 100k last year. [14:02]
ascii_field SERIOUS money [14:02]
mircea_popescu get out [14:02]
mircea_popescu they never saw even a decent salary. [14:02]
ascii_field not 'work 12 hours to make min wage while you sleep' [14:02]
mircea_popescu this recently raped one made less than gawker. [14:02]
ascii_field cut how many ways ? [14:03]
ascii_field (i assume the truth lies somewhere in those 500 GB...) [14:03]
mircea_popescu the boys made slightly more than they'd have made working for gawker, on the grounds that they're asocial weirdos. [14:03]
mircea_popescu the girls made about the same. [14:03]
ascii_field there were girls ?!! [14:04]
mircea_popescu we're not talking enough to be middle class here. [14:04]
* assbot removes voice from _biO_ [14:04]
mircea_popescu yes. [14:04]
ascii_field where ? [14:04]
mircea_popescu guy's gf. [14:04]
ascii_field didn't see any obvious ones in the 'git' login config [14:04]
mircea_popescu right. [14:04]
mircea_popescu someone did the accounting and the sucking sudanese cock you know. [14:04]
ascii_field aha [14:05]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.157 = 1.413 BTC [-] {2} [14:05]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193239 << 'handle time' != 'use customary electronic clocks' [14:05]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 15:53:13; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193083 << this is rank nonsense. to be money it will have to handle time. [14:05]
mircea_popescu granted [14:05]
mircea_popescu but you're not taking time out of it. [14:05]
ascii_field time is in. [14:05]
mircea_popescu aite. [14:05]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193275 << compadre [14:07]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 16:32:33; ben_vulpes: ¿y tu, comrade? [14:07]
* ascii_field buys ben_vulpes dictionary [14:07]
mircea_popescu anyway, this is what powers my disinterest in the matter. i saw in logs this pov is divergent with teh republic, so i'll entertain the alternative viewpoint, but just for the sake of records. [14:08]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: which ? [14:08]
scoopbot_revived The situation of Greece http://trilema.com/2015/the-situation-of-greece/ [14:08]
mircea_popescu ascii_field re the "yet another bedroom derpitude" thread just before. [14:09]
ascii_field the clocks? [14:09]
ascii_field 'hackteam' ? [14:10]
ascii_field which derpitude ? [14:10]
ascii_field jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193305 << if at some point i proposed a thing that requires 'solved halting problem' please say! [14:10]
mircea_popescu hackteam [14:10]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 16:45:07; jurov: i daresay loper machine depends on solved halting problem [14:10]
mircea_popescu o look at teh nyse btw. [14:11]
ascii_field http://www.cnbc.com/id/102806720 << lulz [14:11]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hh3uAu ) [14:11]
ascii_field Run Moar Winblowz!!! [14:11]
* menahem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [14:12]
mod6 trades haulted, no suprise there. [14:12]
mod6 *halted [14:12]
williamdunne I wonder if any sysadmins are gonna jump out of some windows [14:12]
mod6 next, like .cn, selling banned [14:12]
mircea_popescu mod6 "our free market is this thing you can only buy!!1" [14:12]
mircea_popescu bwahaha [14:12]
* joecool has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) [14:12]
mircea_popescu and this is somehow ~not a scam~ [14:13]
mod6 right [14:13]
mircea_popescu then they want to "regulate" biutcoin [14:13]
mircea_popescu make it more like the fiat ponzi system [14:13]
mircea_popescu the gall. [14:13]
mod6 srsly. [14:13]
* assbot gives voice to decimation [14:13]
gabriel_laddel !b 10 [14:14]
assbot Last 10 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3263M1Y.txt ) [14:14]
ascii_field i fully expected this after hearing the cn thing [14:14]
decimation they totally know it's not a 'cyber attack' [14:14]
mircea_popescu anyway, they had no choice. [14:14]
mircea_popescu chinese decided to unwind [14:14]
ascii_field raise yer hand if you thought ft meade would leave nyse switched on [14:14]
mircea_popescu nah was not possibru. [14:14]
decimation ft meade does what wall st wants, not vice versa [14:15]
mircea_popescu really a distinction without a difference [14:15]
davout so i'm trying to build the stator, getting "headers.h:21:27: fatal error: openssl/ecdsa.h: No such file or directory" [14:15]
mircea_popescu does liver do what spleen wants or spleen, liver [14:15]
williamdunne Chinese dumping US stocks now, I'm presuming. Need to pump some filthy fiat into their own markets [14:15]
ascii_field davout: your openssl did not build [14:15]
ascii_field davout: did you have the tarballs in place ? [14:15]
mircea_popescu also make sure you build the right one [14:15]
ascii_field there is a MANIFEST [14:16]
davout i have openssl-1.0.1g.tar.gz in distfiles [14:16]
decimation check the hashes plus sigs [14:16]
mircea_popescu that one yea [14:16]
davout (using mod6's build script) [14:16]
ascii_field ^^^^ ~that~'s why doesn't work [14:16]
ascii_field his scripts never worked for me [14:16]
mod6 you need to use "stator.sh" that comes with the stator tarball [14:16]
decimation you probably have the 'realpath' issue [14:16]
decimation which is because debian is fucktarded [14:16]
mod6 this too ^^ [14:16]
davout ok, i'll do this, thank yall! [14:16]
mircea_popescu a could be [14:16]
mod6 davout: what os? [14:17]
davout gentoo [14:17]
mircea_popescu tech support at its best is keeping a list of who's fucktarded. [14:17]
mod6 yeah, that auto.sh has problems there. [14:17]
mircea_popescu sad state of affairs. [14:17]
ascii_field davout: for now, skip the auto.sh and use my scripts [14:17]
ascii_field very short and simple to grasp [14:17]
ascii_field and pretty much guaranteed to work on gentoo [14:18]
decimation just be sure to check the distfile hashes [14:18]
mircea_popescu in other news, http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzevzzvPKk1rovqsto1_500.gif [14:18]
decimation don't grab the wrong ones [14:18]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1CoVT6S ) [14:18]
ascii_field aha. this is not automated in mine [14:18]
davout ok [14:18]
davout where's the stator tarball? [14:18]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: brilliant. ought to be installed in every american gym [14:18]
williamdunne mircea_popescu: For some reason she looks like a giant [14:18]
mod6 davout: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-June/000102.html [14:19]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1CoW4z5 ) [14:19]
mircea_popescu low camera williamdunne [14:19]
* williamdunne was a terrible art student [14:19]
williamdunne mircea_popescu: you're right [14:19]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: let's have the finale of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193367 ? [14:20]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 17:07:03; mircea_popescu: hackteam [14:20]
mircea_popescu generally the difference between advertising set and porn set is that porn set cameras all set crotch height [14:20]
mircea_popescu ascii_field what's more to say ? [14:20]
mod6 grab those, verify, unpack; beware that you need to drop openssl/bdb/boost in distfiles by hand. and ascii_field's script doesn't want boost.tar.gz, wants boost.tar.bz [14:20]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: no, it isn't 'greatest leak ever' - but certainly the most complete gutting of a usg contractor in history [14:21]
mod6 follow this: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/stator-buildlog-wDumpBlockAndEatBlockApplied.txt [14:21]
ascii_field everything but the ashtray [14:21]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1FYJMZi ) [14:21]
mircea_popescu no argument. [14:21]
mircea_popescu you will notice it is not actually a usg contractor. it's a sudanese contractor. [14:21]
williamdunne These "decentralize all the things" fuckwads are really pissing me off re: NYSE [14:21]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: usg was a major client [14:21]
mircea_popescu the difference between this and an "etsy shop" is color scheme. [14:22]
ascii_field and of course it was the крыша [14:22]
mircea_popescu i dunno, seems more like it was a major alleged client. [14:22]
ascii_field picture what would happen if ~i~ tried to open a 'hackteam' [14:22]
mircea_popescu dunno how much you know about how teenaged girls suck cock these days [14:22]
mircea_popescu but the way it goes, they pretend to be selling to X so Y may buy [14:22]
ascii_field about as much as i know of penguins [14:22]
mircea_popescu ascii_field nobody would even notice. [14:22]
mircea_popescu it's all in your head. [14:22]
mircea_popescu i bet half of your coworkers are "secretly" part of one. [14:23]
mircea_popescu it truely is the band of 2015. [14:23]
ascii_field l0l [14:23]
mircea_popescu i kid you not. but i do not expect anyone to take this on faith. [14:23]
ascii_field fact is, monetizing virii requires a крыша [14:23]
mircea_popescu dude... [14:23]
ascii_field no srsly [14:24]
ascii_field unlike penguin and gurlz, i know this from direct observation [14:24]
mircea_popescu are you even from this planet at ALL ? do you know how much can be passed off as work before even as much as touching a tool ? [14:24]
williamdunne mircea_popescu: Some are pretty enthusiastic about it [14:24]
mircea_popescu yes, playing in a band requires a guitar. [14:24]
mircea_popescu so ? got any sticks ? [14:24]
ascii_field music with no ears. [14:24]
mircea_popescu every kid in a barage gand in 1955 had ear ? [14:25]
mircea_popescu what ear. they're americans. [14:25]
ascii_field anybody can write turdware, yes [14:25]
ascii_field i am speaking of ~money~ [14:25]
mircea_popescu also all in your head. [14:25]
williamdunne https://twitter.com/cgledhill/status/618830161144901632 [14:25]
williamdunne People must care because SJWs signed a petition, wao [14:25]
mircea_popescu these particular kids would have made more scamming in eve [14:25]
mircea_popescu but hey. [14:25]
williamdunne #1 fintech influencer supposedly [14:25]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: from what i can tell, the 'hackteam' folks were paid hundreds of thousands of euros to do things that i consider a weekend's work [14:26]
ascii_field this is called 'crown concession' [14:26]
mircea_popescu start one then. [14:26]
ascii_field l0l [14:27]
mircea_popescu all you need is the girlie to suck sudan cock. [14:27]
mircea_popescu ask on craigslist [14:27]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2015#1002367 [14:27]
assbot Logged on 02-02-2015 07:04:28; asciilifeform: dude really, it is very easy to fly. just bend your arms into an effective lift surface, right angle of attack, and fart really hard. [14:27]
mircea_popescu ask.on.craigslist. [14:27]
* ascii_field utterly fails to grasp what mircea_popescu is speaking of [14:28]
mircea_popescu say "Very gifted reverse engineer, looking for outgoing, persuasive, experienced slut to start hackteam together. You'll have to suck bureaucrat cock to get us contracts, I'll fill them, we split the loot." [14:28]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: guess where i'm posting from [14:29]
ascii_field it doesn't work unless you have access to the right cock [14:29]
mircea_popescu the congress library [14:29]
ascii_field and we - thus far - don't. [14:29]
mircea_popescu eh get outta here. [14:29]
ascii_field srsly [14:29]
mircea_popescu that's HER job. [14:29]
ascii_field despite, for instance, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=25-06-2015#1175261 [14:29]
assbot Logged on 25-06-2015 03:01:25; asciilifeform: i built it. [14:29]
mircea_popescu pack her off to whatever, sierra leone [14:29]
ascii_field we don't have any gurlz though [14:29]
mircea_popescu sucks to be us. [14:30]
thestringpuller i think the network just forked again [14:30]
ascii_field thing i'm beginning to suspect is that nobody gives half a shit about reversing, or 'security', or any of it [14:30]
ascii_field but only launders usg money [14:30]
ascii_field with pre-selected butt buddies [14:30]
gabriel_laddel ^ [14:30]
mircea_popescu the first part is right. [14:31]
ascii_field ph0rk! [14:31]
mircea_popescu mmyeah. [14:31]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [14:31]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [14:31]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [14:31]
mircea_popescu and ima go play eulora in celebration. [14:33]
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ascii_field unph0rk3d ? [14:45]
ascii_field aaaand https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000024d5e8b9010d61d93550bfd022a5d8f613f7daa620456f8 l0l [14:45]
assbot Bitcoin Block #364437 ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp22jF ) [14:45]
williamdunne It's okay guyz, NYSE is turning itself off and on again [14:45]
jurov nyse mining bitcoins? [14:46]
williamdunne Yeah, they've got some celerons on the job [14:51]
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* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [15:02]
gabriel_laddel !up ascii_field [15:02]
gabriel_laddel http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/ [15:02]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [15:02]
assbot Project IceStorm ... ( http://bit.ly/1BKXug8 ) [15:02]
gabriel_laddel ^ some people reverse engineered an fpga's bitstream format [15:03]
gabriel_laddel *a fpga... [15:03]
ascii_field 'We have enough bits mapped that we can create a functional verilog model for almost all bitstreams generated by Lattice iCEcube2 for the iCE40 HX1K-TQ144, as long as no block memories or PLLs are used. ' << wake me up when that last part changes. and when i can get this chip from ten different chinese foundries. [15:03]
ascii_field this all happened before, with xilinx [15:04]
ascii_field and we know how it ends. [15:04]
ascii_field 'Next on the TODO list: PLLs, Timing Analysis...' << ahahahahahaha [15:05]
ascii_field try synthesizing ~anything~ of any serious complexity without exact timing data for ~every piece of shit on the die~ [15:05]
ascii_field i gotta take my hat off to these folks for sheer effort, but the fact remains that they are scooping out the sea with the proverbial thimble. [15:06]
gabriel_laddel To any "hackers" reading the logs - rather than going after hackteam, try xilinx, lattice semiconductor next time? [15:09]
ascii_field ('how it ends,' for the uninitiated, is that some time around when these fine folks are about half done, the chip will go out of print. and be replaced by an entirely incompatible one.) [15:09]
ascii_field gabriel_laddel: this doesn't help either. no one can force them to keep making the 'doxxed' chip. [15:10]
ascii_field a 'doxxed' fpga is entirely useless if you can't get it! [15:10]
gabriel_laddel ascii_field: imho this is going to be a slow process of ad-hoc reverse engineering of a design, finding chiacom manufactures... [15:11]
ascii_field it is, after all, a physical object. [15:11]
gabriel_laddel someone needs to carry the water. [15:11]
ascii_field gabriel_laddel: there is no mass market for these. [15:11]
ascii_field we had this thread before. [15:11]
gabriel_laddel !s bribery [15:11]
assbot 9 results for 'bribery' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bribery [15:11]
ascii_field not bribery as such, just that you'd have to pay the fab up front, cash on the barrel [15:11]
ascii_field to have any made. [15:11]
ascii_field not a bribe, but straightforward commerce [15:12]
ascii_field gabriel_laddel: another detail that must be understood is that reversing for the purpose of programming is a very different animal from reversing for the purpose of rebuilding. [15:13]
ascii_field in the case of the latter, it is necessary to have a ~complete~ picture of the vital organs [15:14]
ascii_field including aspects that a programmer doesn't give a flying fuck about, like chemistry [15:14]
ascii_field and in-circuit testing [15:14]
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gabriel_laddel Unrelated: Uncle Al's disqus profile. It is a treat. https://disqus.com/by/Xemist/ [15:18]
assbot Disqus Profile - Xemist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp6BdM ) [15:18]
ascii_field gabriel_laddel: good to see that he's still kicking, somewhere [15:18]
gabriel_laddel Orange County iirc? [15:19]
ascii_field gabriel_laddel: i suspected he might have 'went perelman' [15:19]
williamdunne gabriel_laddel: About 12 months ago I was tasked with checking the security of a fiat institution. Within three hours I had found two different bugs to send money from accounts that weren't mine, and two different bugs to view all account details that weren't mine, and another to see all transaction details that weren't mine. [15:19]
gabriel_laddel williamdunne: ! [15:20]
williamdunne IKR, the operator was a friend of mine, but he was very concerned when I sent him the details for a large transaction from themselves to a law firm they employ [15:21]
gabriel_laddel Speaking of Uncle Al - not only did the 'gentlemen' at the eot wash group modify their URL scheme so that his links appear "dead", but Stanford has also moved the single link in qz4.html [15:21]
ascii_field williamdunne: and that was when he put out your eyes and cut out your tongue ? [15:22]
ascii_field gabriel_laddel: big fat surprise [15:22]
gabriel_laddel lol check this out [15:22]
gabriel_laddel http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/sites/www.npl.washington.edu.eotwash/files/webfiles/publications/pdfs/lowfrontier2.pdf [15:22]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp7fb7 ) [15:22]
williamdunne ascii_field: not quite, although I do regret agreeing to do it pro-bono [15:22]
gabriel_laddel ^ new url scheme vs. [15:22]
gabriel_laddel http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/publications/pdf/lowfrontier2.pdf [15:22]
assbot Page not found | The Eöt-Wash Group ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cp7hj7 ) [15:22]
gabriel_laddel williamdunne: so you're the guy who makes the spice flow? [15:24]
gabriel_laddel what exactly do you do? [15:24]
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williamdunne Hard to pin that one down [15:25]
gabriel_laddel doya have a cv or the like? [15:25]
ascii_field https://disqus.com/home/discussion/neuroskeptic/the_strange_world_of_8220reward_deficiency_syndrome8221_part_2/#comment-2118094177 [15:25]
assbot Disqus - The Strange World of “Reward Deficiency Syndrome” (Part 2) ... ( http://bit.ly/1TlSFWh ) [15:25]
ascii_field many lulz [15:25]
ascii_field 'Be homicidally depressed and aim at the top. That is like voting, except the count is honest and meaningful.' [15:26]
gabriel_laddel ahahaha [15:26]
williamdunne I've never received a job by anything but reference. First job when I was 14 was a game programmer, second job when 15 was working at a military intelligence company in London doing some infosec and accounting type stuff. Lots of freelancing stuff [15:26]
williamdunne Security, programming, pretty much anything with a keyboard [15:26]
williamdunne Recently did some stuff for the BitFinex guys, that wasn't much fun but y'know. Pays for stuff. Think I'll have more with them in future [15:28]
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gabriel_laddel !up ascii_field [15:33]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [15:33]
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gabriel_laddel !up NewLiberty [15:34]
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williamdunne What happened to that German socialist girl, she ever come back to continue her derping? [15:36]
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ascii_field http://polymatharchives.blogspot.in/2015/01/the-inappropriately-excluded.html << l0ltr0n1c [15:48]
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assbot The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded ... ( http://bit.ly/1TlVir1 ) [15:48]
gabriel_laddel "The antidote to national social and financial collapse is war. War clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of social and economic realities. It rewards the creative, productive, and effective. It reduces redundant populations. North Korea, India, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia (paid for Paki research, repaid by Paki nukes) stare down some 1000 exceptionally well-crafted and deliverable Israeli thermonukes. [15:53]
gabriel_laddel Fukishima effluent on California's coast chews up the food chain to seals. 39 million person California, tremendously government subsidized, is collapsed. Its unsecured debt is the Saudi GNP while its $45 billion/year agriculture Central Valley has returned to desert, unemploying a million Mexican slaves with nowhere to go. Let's run the Battle of the Somme again, and soon. The jet stream dips south in autumn." (fr [15:53]
gabriel_laddel om Uncle Al) [15:53]
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trinque war doesn't really reduce redundant population [15:57]
trinque bounces right back after the war, if there's a dip at all [15:57]
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mats uh [16:02]
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asciilifeform !up ascii_field [16:06]
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ascii_field 'If you want to end ISIS, teach it game theory and casebooks. "They['ll] get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do," and lose.' (from the al schwartz link earlier) [16:06]
trinque mats: I am not finding a good graph of the russian population per year, yet I recall ww2 being a temporary blip downward that was rapidly recovered [16:08]
trinque and they sustained huge casualties [16:08]
mats the specific claim being made is 'redundant populations' [16:14]
mats how do we evaluate this claim [16:14]
trinque there'd have to be some correlation between an indicator of this redundancy before the war and which soldiers died [16:17]
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trinque "unskilled laborers died more often than ..." << maybe something like that [16:18]
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ascii_field '12 years public school, 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, 4 years post-doc. You are now over 30, deeply in debt, and starting life. Your idiot high school classmate who held a STOP sign at a construction site has been pulling $80K/year, has a fine home, wife, three kids, and a motor boat. His eldest son rakes in $850K/year tax-free facilitating recreational pharmaceuticals and an escort service.' << schwartz [16:21]
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trinque mats: but then even if the stupid tend to die more often, it could still be so that the stupid back home fuck enough to replenish stocks [16:22]
mats ain't social science great [16:24]
ascii_field trinque: intelligence doesn't breed true. (stupidity, however, does. this confuses folks) [16:25]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.00057258 = 8.5314 BTC [+] [16:30]
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trinque ascii_field: I don't follow [16:34]
trinque ah that intelligence is not necessarily passed down genetically? [16:34]
trinque definitely not [16:34]
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trinque !up ascii_field [16:36]
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ascii_field trinque: also most folks who idly ponder the subject end up conflating several distinct things under 'intelligence' [16:37]
ascii_field far more interesting is the trait hasn eysenck called 'psychoticism' [16:38]
ascii_field which is the thing without which arbitrarily strong 'intelligence' ends up a chinese exam taker [16:38]
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ascii_field interestingly, old norse, even, had a very specific word for this trait [16:39]
* ascii_field does not have the link with him. if anyone recalls the answer, do chime in [16:39]
trinque old norse probably had an honorable term for the thing [16:40]
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trinque ascii_field: something like the combination of dominance and being a social supernode? [16:41]
ascii_field no. [16:41]
ascii_field mircea_popescu chronically links the two, but they are entirely independent [16:42]
ascii_field one can have one coming out of ears and arse, and lack the other entirely [16:42]
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ascii_field specifically, you can have arbitrarily high 'psychoticism' in the sense of being perelman and no 'dominance' or 'social supernode' to speak of. [16:43]
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trinque ascii_field: then is it a measure of the willingness to fight other people? [16:47]
ascii_field again no [16:47]
ascii_field if you must reduce it to a soundbite - it is just a measure of the quality of the rng in your head [16:47]
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ascii_field nothing to do with relating to other people. [16:48]
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trinque ascii_field: I am promting you to define the term instead of merely restating it [16:48]
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trinque I do not follow that definition either [16:48]
ascii_field trinque: i am certain that, just like everyone else here, you have met both kinds of 'intelligence' [16:49]
ascii_field i.e. 'champion at exams' vs the other kind. [16:49]
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trinque sure, and the former is deeply embedded in a group concept of what he ought to be doing [16:49]
trinque and the latter has his own idea [16:49]
ascii_field what makes the exam champ the waste of oxygen that he is ? [16:49]
trinque general obedience is what I see [16:51]
jurov !up jborkl [16:51]
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trinque ascii_field: by good RNG do you mean that they are capable of novel thoughts? [16:53]
trinque rather, that they have a greater capacity for ... [16:53]
jborkl The way it has been before, not all nodes have the same amount of txns in mempool - I never got enough of a explanation to discuss it [16:54]
jborkl mine has 32000 currently and blockchain has 21000 [16:54]
ascii_field trinque: capable+inclined [16:54]
trinque then yes, I see your point [16:54]
ascii_field the 'capable' part is definitely key. who hasn't met his fair share of hack writers, for instance, poor schmucks grasping desperately for one singe original idea? and never finding it [16:55]
jurov jborkl: maybe different antispam rules [16:55]
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trinque ascii_field: haha, my former bosses for instance [16:56]
jborkl possible, there are a ton of waiting txns either way and the spike has been recently [16:57]
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jborkl although I have just been watching from the sideline for a long time (not active) [16:57]
trinque ascii_field: it would make a great deal of sense to me if there were a connection between this kind of intelligence and personality traits which cause him to have a much lower default level of regard for any particular human off the street. [16:58]
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trinque if he in fact has the capability, then the empathy which might cause him to accept someone else's perspective instead would only be a hindrance [16:59]
trinque and if he doesn't, you get http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist1/norton.html [17:00]
assbot Norton I, Emperor of the United [17:00]
ascii_field trinque: bad example. norton was popular. [17:01]
ascii_field a true social butterfly, even. [17:01]
trinque hah oh, my mistake [17:01]
trinque maybe someone that secretly collects human skin furniture then [17:02]
ascii_field do you collect dead ants ? [17:02]
ascii_field or kill ants for sport ? [17:03]
* trinque can see he will never earn the honorific "the Terrible" [17:03]
ascii_field true Not Giving A Fuck doesn't have a plus or minus sign. it's just a big fat zero. [17:04]
trinque ah [17:04]
decimation re: stupid breeding true < I thought 'reversion to the population mean' was the general outcome [17:05]
ascii_field aha [17:05]
ascii_field and stupidity is perfectly normal [17:05]
decimation I suppose tragically stupid parents are likely to have slightly smarter children [17:06]
decimation but not many worry about that case [17:06]
ascii_field not speaking here of extreme deformities [17:06]
ascii_field extra chromosomes, etc [17:06]
decimation right [17:06]
ascii_field just the factory-standard mind [17:06]
decimation but two iq 90 parents are likely to have children that score a little closer to 100 [17:06]
decimation (for whites in the us) [17:06]
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decimation who would be lost in the unwashed 1st std deviation anyway [17:07]
lobbes !up ascii_field [17:07]
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danielpbarron ;;later tell mjr_ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-08-2014#791843 << you can now [17:09]
assbot Logged on 12-08-2014 00:44:36; mjr_: by the way, anyone gonna tell me if i can play this game where i can buy things with bitcoin? [17:09]
gribble The operation succeeded. [17:09]
decimation re: political time < it occurred to me that the far more obvious way of synchronizing a clock is to simply take note of the sunrise and/or sunset [17:12]
decimation in fact, someone who depises 'astronomical time' in favor of cesium time is also fully in favor of 'usg time' [17:12]
ascii_field decimation: and if it rains ? [17:12]
decimation wait till tomorrow [17:12]
ascii_field and if you are in submarine ? [17:12]
ascii_field can't wait [17:12]
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ascii_field you're running a node. [17:13]
ascii_field in real time [17:13]
decimation actually it would be neat to build a nutrino detector [17:13]
decimation in your submarine [17:13]
ascii_field afaik there is no useful timing info in solar neutrono flows [17:13]
ascii_field *neutrino flow [17:13]
decimation you might be able to determine the angle of the sun w.r.t. the earth's surface [17:13]
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ascii_field and, considering the famous formula ('50/50 interactions when passing through light-year of lead') portable detector is a questionable affair [17:14]
decimation sure but you got water everywhere [17:14]
decimation although biologics would probably jam your signal [17:14]
ascii_field aha [17:15]
ascii_field examine the construction of a neutrino observatory. [17:15]
ascii_field (typically, abandoned mine filled with salt water and thousands of photomultiplier tubes on the walls, each the size of a man's torso) [17:15]
decimation indeed. [17:15]
ascii_field anyway, since this thread came back to life, i will point out that mircea_popescu is right re: the notion of time being necessary for a bitcoin net. but it doesn't have to come from a clock as traditionally understood [17:17]
ascii_field it just has to be a reasonably-periodic signal that all nodes can see, whose period is not affected by the aggregate hash rate, nor can be manipulated at reasonable expense by gnomes [17:18]
decimation perhaps the pogo should come with a sunlight detector [17:19]
ascii_field natural phenomena don't fit the bill [17:19]
ascii_field not only because they are not reliably detectable (rain, clouds, being in a submarine) [17:19]
ascii_field but because can be faked in various 'good enough' ways [17:20]
ascii_field and, on the other end, require specialized hardware [17:20]
decimation if usg can spam uv over a large area for hours, then you probably have bigger problems than money [17:22]
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ascii_field decimation: thinking more of hacks like rf detection of sunspot cycle [17:22]
ascii_field or schumann's resonance, etc [17:22]
decimation yeah. ultimately a thinking person can observe sunrise, sunset, set own clock (calendar might be another matter) [17:23]
decimation of course 'set clock' algorithm needs your lat/lon [17:23]
lobbes plus, then you are back to 'who sets the clocks' problem [17:24]
ascii_field aha [17:24]
decimation the sun does. [17:24]
ascii_field and what of when you cannot see the sunrise ? [17:24]
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decimation then you ought to have made preparations [17:24]
ascii_field such as ? [17:24]
decimation if you have a submarine, you probably ought to have high quality timekeeping equipment [17:25]
ascii_field so we're back to clock, then [17:25]
ascii_field we already know how to meet and set clocks, last i checked [17:25]
decimation you could even use a sundial [17:25]
ascii_field on submarine. [17:25]
decimation submarine needs clock, yes. [17:26]
ascii_field let's try to define the basic puzzle here [17:26]
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ascii_field two (at minimum) geographically separated people, with enemies in between, wish to agree re: how much time has passed since they last spoke, 2016 blocks ago. [17:26]
decimation they don't own clocks and can't see the sunrise and don't know where they are too? [17:27]
ascii_field let's suppose they traded pgp keys and can communicate securely. however, they cannot prevent the enemy from delaying messages [17:27]
ascii_field or sometimes 'losing' them entirely [17:27]
decimation sure. [17:27]
ascii_field say they own very poor clocks, which drift by a second - or more - per minute. [17:28]
decimation heh ok [17:28]
ascii_field (pogo...) [17:28]
decimation it's not quite that bad [17:28]
decimation but not great, granted [17:29]
ascii_field for the sake of argument. [17:29]
ascii_field aha [17:29]
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ascii_field and now compound the problem by supposing that it is not you and your best friend, but you and a network consisting, to an unknown degree, of devils [17:29]
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decimation devils who reluctantly serve up blocksl [17:31]
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ascii_field devils who do whatever it takes to camouflage as men [17:31]
ascii_field while dishing out max damage [17:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92665 @ 0.00057468 = 53.2527 BTC [+] {4} [17:32]
funkenstein_ consider a node that passes on valid TXs, checks new blocks for proper work and passes them on. it ignores timestamps and lets miners say what current difficulty is. useless or not? [17:35]
ascii_field vulnerable to rewinds. [17:36]
ascii_field and to other induced forkage. [17:36]
ascii_field (will accept blocks that are not, by the traditional bitcoin rules, valid. and predicate acceptance of future blocks on these turds - which is what 'accept a block' means) [17:36]
ben_vulpes what is a rewind attack? [17:36]
ascii_field ben_vulpes: being fed an alternate past [17:37]
ascii_field typically from when mining was considerably 'easier' [17:37]
ascii_field but not necessarily [17:37]
ascii_field (can be recent past) [17:37]
ben_vulpes i'm sure you've gone into this in depth, but doesn't the length of the current main chain make that ludicrously expensive? [17:37]
ascii_field ben_vulpes: why would it ? [17:38]
ascii_field certain variants of the attack are prohibitively costly, yes [17:38]
ascii_field others - no [17:38]
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ben_vulpes which variants are cheap? [17:38]
funkenstein_ !up ascii_field [17:38]
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ben_vulpes aha the one where you simply hold difficulty constant and mine a long-ass chain. [17:39]
ascii_field aha [17:39]
funkenstein_ the chain with the most work demonstrated wins [17:39]
ascii_field or feeding a whole alternate universe to a virginal (has nothing but genesis) node [17:39]
decimation I donno, it strikes me that having a sundial and knowing how to use it (convert to universal time) is a pretty cheap counter [17:39]
ascii_field which yes, you can defend against with crude kludges like storing sums, but this is 'enumerated badness' [17:39]
ben_vulpes decimation: but then people would have to touch it !!111twelve1 [17:40]
ascii_field decimation: now you have a human slave in the loop [17:40]
ascii_field straight to 'slavecoin' [17:40]
ascii_field don't even need a computer. [17:40]
decimation yeah, slave tells you time of day [17:40]
ascii_field and hashes with goose feather pen [17:40]
ascii_field as described in mircea_popescu's tale [17:40]
decimation well, if slave tells you time of day, the class of attacks you describe become much more difficult [17:41]
ascii_field except that the attacks now include having one's throat cut at night, aha [17:41]
ascii_field at any rate, we don't actually know how to do 'proof of work' thing using meat. [17:42]
ascii_field if we did, 'hawala' would have used it 2000 y ago. [17:42]
decimation yes, true. [17:42]
ascii_field in my mind, that's sorta the whole point of bitcoin. [17:42]
ben_vulpes (unrelatedly: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/opinion/15pubed.html?_r=1) [17:43]
assbot Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1D1BLmt ) [17:43]
ben_vulpes (on the use of "torture" in the nyt) [17:43]
decimation why does the fact that your throat can be cut invalidate proof of work? [17:44]
ascii_field it doesn't [17:44]
ascii_field separate problems. [17:44]
shinohai I should say having one's throat cut invalidates a lot of things. [17:44]
decimation not for me [17:44]
decimation (your throat i mean) [17:45]
ascii_field the unfortunate thing is that the 'easy to verify, hard to produce' thing very much requires machines. [17:45]
decimation at any rate, I fully admit that bitcoin requires slaves to feed computers the right data and configure them [17:45]
* decimation wonders if skynet will need an 'economy' or will just directly solve the 'need things/have things' trade matrix [17:46]
bagels7 i'll be your slave for a million dollars on a 5 year basis [17:46]
ascii_field decimation: do you know the story of how the concept of 'space station' came about? [17:46]
decimation not precisely no [17:46]
ascii_field well, afaik the 'precise' is not publicly known. but the ancient rumour that was taught to me was that it was a usg military propaganda trick [17:47]
ascii_field see, somebody's gotta change the vacuum tubes [17:47]
ascii_field in spy satellites. [17:47]
ascii_field except when they don't. then, suddenly, much less talk of space stations [17:47]
decimation yeah, that's true I think. the soviets believed it anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaz [17:48]
assbot Almaz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlbOKo ) [17:48]
decimation su actually built 'manned spy satellites' - became 'civilian peace stations' in the 80's [17:49]
ascii_field aha. [17:49]
ascii_field just as usg turned their orbital nuke dropper into 'space shuttle' [17:49]
decimation but I do see your point, if we can make the hardware 'reliable' [17:49]
ascii_field a pogo, as i envision it, has much in common with a comm satellite [17:50]
shinohai Is there a history of the pogo somewhere? [17:51]
ascii_field shinohai: of the pogo as it comes from the vendor ? [17:51]
ascii_field or of our particular dealings with it [17:51]
shinohai Of your particular dealings. How the idea of using it came about. [17:51]
shinohai I was just curious. [17:51]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-07-2015#1184297 [17:52]
assbot Logged on 02-07-2015 17:52:19; ascii_field: shinohai: it all started with http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-01-2015#988286 [17:52]
ascii_field mircea_popescu posed the question of what is the cheapest mass-produced piece of equipment that could be pressed into service to run therealbitcoin. [17:53]
ascii_field the answer turned out to be pogo. [17:53]
ascii_field by a factor of 6 or so. [17:53]
ascii_field mainly because it is (or rather was) sold far below cost by the manufacturer [17:53]
ascii_field who was pushing a weirdo 'cloud subscription' thing with it [17:53]
shinohai I am fascinated by how mircea_popescu envisioned that. I tried for well over a year to figure out how to busybox it. [17:54]
shinohai And failed. [17:54]
ascii_field shinohai: he didn't [17:54]
ascii_field just asked the question. [17:54]
ascii_field i answered it, experimentally [17:54]
ascii_field ported netbsd to the thing, too [17:55]
ascii_field which turned out to be a waste of time [17:55]
ascii_field (certain necessaries did not work correctly) [17:55]
shinohai I was hoping my pogo would arrive today, but postman has already come. :/ [17:57]
ascii_field shinohai: most of what i've done re: therealbitcoin so far revolves around getting memory footprint under control [17:59]
ascii_field shinohai: pogo has 128M of ram, soldered on. [18:00]
shinohai And it is fantastic work, imho. My shell provider doesn't bitch at me about bandwidth anymore either. [18:00]
ascii_field um [18:01]
williamdunne Wait, people are successful at running bitcoin on summin with 128m of ram? [18:01]
williamdunne Wao [18:01]
ascii_field everything i did only ~increases~ bandwidth consumption [18:01]
ascii_field williamdunne: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000107.html [18:01]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rld7c9 ) [18:01]
ascii_field williamdunne: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150701/rss_d1746f76523316edcdc82326213f8953bf6f0d09.png [18:01]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1RldaVB ) [18:01]
shinohai For some reason mine has dropped, but probably because I'm not connecting to a bzillion nodes [18:01]
ascii_field (this was a node, i must remind the reader, with no mempool, on account of having no net connection and being fed blocks 'intravenously' if you will) [18:02]
ascii_field vertical axis is in kB [18:02]
ascii_field the thing here, as discussed in the past, is that 300 bytes (block header and overhead) are kept in ram at all times per ~known block~ [18:03]
ascii_field now if the node is 'live' and has net connection, hears tx, suffers possible fragging (see old threads) - then even more consumption. [18:04]
ascii_field but what you see in that graph is the only 'leak' in the usual sense [18:04]
ascii_field as in, the one thing that is guaranteed to grow monotonically [18:04]
ascii_field https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000cf530b3346a39156f56eb9259e5d7fd97a6e9168ffaf91e << l0l [18:07]
assbot Bitcoin Block #364463 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RldQKx ) [18:07]
shinohai test [18:09]
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shinohai !up ascii_field [18:09]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [18:09]
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ascii_field http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3clbk6/bitcoin_xt_status_update/cswlmk4 << l0l [18:09]
assbot HostFat comments on Bitcoin XT Status Update ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rle4kR ) [18:09]
ascii_field 'As you may have noticed, Bitcoin unfortunately has run out of capacity due to someone DoS attacking the network.' [18:10]
ascii_field 'run out' [18:10]
ascii_field 'someone' [18:10]
ascii_field 'bigger blocks' [18:10]
ascii_field (hearn, of course) [18:10]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14762 @ 0.00056898 = 8.3993 BTC [-] [18:12]
trinque "I suspect it can be mitigated through heavier reliance on coin age priority, as coin age is not something that can be trivially bought on the spot, unlike fee priority." [18:12]
trinque same idiot argument re: spam as Luke-Jr [18:12]
trinque IF IT HAS A FEE ATTACHED AND IS A VALID TXN, IT'S NOT SPAM [18:13]
ascii_field ^ [18:13]
ascii_field though gotta wonder if this is still fair to say re: a gigantic sack of shit with the words 'this is spam, and fuck you' printed right on it [18:14]
ascii_field (the tx sent to brainwallet('password') etc) [18:15]
trinque sure, one can imagine some sane criteria on determining spamitude [18:15]
ascii_field but aside from that, bidding up space in blocks by blowing one's own coin is a perfectly legit thing to do [18:15]
ascii_field as per the protocol rules [18:16]
trinque it's telling that they are not even willing to consider using, you know, a fucking market for this [18:16]
ascii_field if usg wants to spend its coin this way, it can [18:16]
mats its an ideological matter to hear Luke-Jr tell it [18:17]
ascii_field as i pointed out before, it is being done for two disjoint reasons. one is so that hearn can write the turd linked above, re: 'it is crowded and we need blocks of $maxint size' [18:17]
ascii_field the other is so that gavin & co. can try to persuade miners to use their turdball [18:17]
mats 'i dun wanna hold gigs of "spam" on my drive, and nobody else does either' [18:17]
ascii_field by promising 'tx fee ordering' as a feature [18:17]
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ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193852 << the fucking market is there. nobody broke it. but to redditards, 'market won't supply me with free shit' == 'market has failed' [18:19]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 21:12:24; trinque: it's telling that they are not even willing to consider using, you know, a fucking market for this [18:19]
trinque right, I said this yesterday [18:19]
trinque stress test seems to prove the system works from where I sit [18:19]
ascii_field trinque: not if you ask the tards [18:20]
ascii_field for them, 'it broke' [18:20]
ascii_field because they can't send their 0.01 btc without fee [18:20]
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mod6 'don't be poor' [18:21]
ascii_field one telling mark of a tard is that he is unwilling to consider that market's job is not only to supply folks with things, but to REFUSE to supply them [18:21]
ascii_field when they cannot pay [18:21]
shinohai my tunnel collapsed [18:22]
shinohai sorry for the flood [18:22]
trinque ascii_field: reminds me of mircea_popescu's recent comments to the effect of roughly "We've done it! I exist!" [18:22]
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trinque cannot think of a more vulgar mentality [18:23]
ascii_field l0l wut [18:23]
trinque the redditard mentality [18:23]
trinque that the fact of their pulse is by itself something special and important [18:23]
mats we're all equals, man [18:24]
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mats we must has equal outcomes or else fascism [18:24]
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ascii_field https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000dd2101c3f08f3e4ad16f90c37a2780f5012358c18371642 [18:28]
assbot Bitcoin Block #364467 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlfOdZ ) [18:28]
thestringpuller ascii_field: so what's the problem here? [18:29]
thestringpuller we get fee market. fuck the people who can't pay for their nice things [18:29]
thestringpuller get a fucking job already [18:29]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [18:29]
thestringpuller stop complaining about "waah my transactions is unconfirmed waaaah" [18:29]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [18:29]
* BingoBoingo just switched own nodes to 0.001 min fee for transaction relay [18:29]
ascii_field thestringpuller: ask'em [18:29]
* shinohai likes how BingoBoingo thinks. [18:30]
ascii_field thestringpuller: i'm not even certain that the 'ocean of complaint' consists of real people [18:30]
ascii_field rather than philippino meat puppets for-hire [18:30]
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BingoBoingo Impact of my relay policy change on the network will be near nil, but policy is policy [18:31]
funkenstein_ meanwhile litecoin users enjoying "stress test" popcorn [18:31]
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funkenstein_ i've never understood the philippino references i see here [18:32]
ascii_field funkenstein_: it's in the log [18:32]
thestringpuller !s philippino [18:32]
assbot 1 results for 'philippino' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=philippino [18:32]
shinohai !s philippino meat puppets for-hire [18:32]
assbot 0 results for 'philippino meat puppets for-hire' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=philippino+meat+puppets+for-hire [18:32]
thestringpuller !s phillipino [18:32]
assbot 2 results for 'phillipino' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=phillipino [18:32]
ascii_field http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-02-2015#1003223 [18:32]
assbot Logged on 02-02-2015 23:04:03; mircea_popescu: it was highlighted by intel about two weeks ago, and we're generally tracing it to philippines "top quality" content farms working for a number of (mostly ct and wash based) pr firms. [18:32]
ascii_field ^ [18:32]
fluffypony itt: nobody can spell phillllippppinnnnooooo [18:32]
shinohai i copy-pasta'd xD [18:33]
ascii_field see whole thread [18:33]
ascii_field particularly, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2015#1003221 [18:33]
assbot Logged on 02-02-2015 23:03:08; mircea_popescu: "I've noticed certain repeating characteristic in the writing of many members of this forum: they construct grammatically correct sentences but absolutely disregard the underlying semantics: incoming vs. outgoing, local vs. remote, source vs. destination, etc. Here in regards to TCP/IP ports, but I observed that in regards to pretty much any technical issue." [18:33]
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williamdunne WTF [18:44]
williamdunne It starts with an F? What's this shit [18:44]
williamdunne filipino [18:44]
trinque who gives a shit about arbitrary distinctions such as that? [18:47]
trinque only asciilifeform's test takers [18:47]
trinque and players of dwarf fortress [18:47]
funkenstein_ bad spellers of the world: untie! [18:50]
williamdunne Sorta like how dyslexic is probably pretty hard to spell if you're dyslexic [18:50]
trinque brings to mind http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/european-commission.html [18:52]
assbot Jokes - European Commission ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlhwMq ) [18:52]
williamdunne http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-08/greece-illustrates-150-years-socialist-failure-europe [18:55]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlhKmF ) [18:55]
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* BingoBoingo is guessing that at some point Rubidium standards are going to become #b-a coture [19:03]
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BingoBoingo Apparently Microshit is copying MP nao http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html [19:35]
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assbot Donate to the OpenBSD Foundation ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hi3NLe ) [19:35]
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decimation BingoBoingo: actually high quality ovenized quartz can be nearly as good as rubidium [19:52]
BingoBoingo Suffers labeling issues though. Hard to tell buy ordering if you get actual part or Chicom turd [19:53]
decimation not if you are willing to pay $$$ [19:53]
decimation here's a reasonable text on celestial navigation http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/page2.htm [19:55]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPIZ4W ) [19:55]
decimation there is a description on how to derive time by measuring the moon's motion relative to other objects in the sky [19:55]
decimation actually better link to the book here http://www.celnav.de/page2.htm [19:57]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hi8RPQ ) [19:57]
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asciilifeform BingoBoingo: the fixation on physical clocks, astronomical magic, etc. is unproductive re: the original problem posed. [20:01]
asciilifeform (though by no means useless in general) [20:01]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Nah, for different, later problems [20:02]
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asciilifeform we, afaik, do not have those problems yet. must still graduate to them. [20:02]
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BingoBoingo At somepoint though we will have the problem on when to start decelerating the starship lest we crashland into Alpha Centurai [20:03]
asciilifeform right now we have the very different problem of how not to drown in own shit. [20:04]
BingoBoingo And the way to not drown might just be space ship [20:04]
BingoBoingo Or Space shit [20:04]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: if you have a tip re: how to make perfectly synchronized with one another rubidium clocks materialize in the existing $20 pogos, i'm all ears.. [20:05]
BingoBoingo No idea about that. [20:05]
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asciilifeform BingoBoingo: might wanna read that thread, it's pretty lulzy [20:06]
asciilifeform it's where i describe how bitcoin is not actually decentralized at all, but depends on a thoroughly usgificated network of political clocks [20:06]
decimation ^ clocks that could be, but probably are not, checked for accuracy [20:06]
BingoBoingo I read the thread. closest I have to solutions are either Noping ft. meade off the earth into the sun or Noping out and taking stator to ALpha Centurai [20:07]
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BingoBoingo But I dunno. Maybe at some point radio hashes happens. [20:14]
BingoBoingo Disguise the signal as over the horizon radar [20:14]
BingoBoingo And at that point why not have competing political time broadcast on that signal, signed [20:15]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it doesn't acvtually depend on it. [20:19]
mircea_popescu owner of node may choose to depend on it [20:19]
mircea_popescu otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time. [20:19]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193532 << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either. [20:23]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 18:06:08; ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: this doesn't help either. no one can force them to keep making the 'doxxed' chip. [20:23]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193580 << no. [20:26]
decimation also describing it as 'political time' when the policy is 'matches easily observable astronomical phenomena' seems a bit hyperbolic [20:26]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 18:32:24; williamdunne: What happened to that German socialist girl, she ever come back to continue her derping? [20:26]
mircea_popescu and ftr she looked like a guy to me. [20:26]
mircea_popescu decimation time is not a natural phenomenon. [20:26]
trinque ^ found that googling as well [20:26]
decimation spacetime doesn't exist? [20:27]
trinque women in technology == technologically produced womyn [20:27]
mircea_popescu but that aside, this is conventional time. [20:27]
mircea_popescu spacetime is an artefact of the observation being carried out. [20:27]
mircea_popescu and also, it is not ~time~. it is space-time. [20:27]
decimation as opposed to what? being derived from platonic ideals? [20:27]
mircea_popescu as opposed to mass. [20:27]
BingoBoingo spacetime doesn't exist? << It isn't space or time, merely the manifold until it is intuited by the apperception [20:30]
decimation same could be said of quarks [20:30]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193590 << he is basically saying http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-06-2015#1170141 and in that he is right. for the exact reason in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-06-2015#1169850 [20:32]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 19:02:31; ascii_field: 'If you want to end ISIS, teach it game theory and casebooks. "They['ll] get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do," and lose.' (from the al schwartz link earlier) [20:32]
assbot Logged on 20-06-2015 23:17:19; asciilifeform: but no, he wants to use what the gods gave him. [20:32]
assbot Logged on 20-06-2015 19:29:12; mircea_popescu: the notion that human agency is ever "effectual" is such rank nonsense to begion with, that a pretense of "saving action for optimal effect" can only be regarded in psychogenic terms [20:32]
mircea_popescu specifically, that if you wait for the "optimal" you're waiting forever. [20:32]
mircea_popescu decimation in any case, the time bitcoin uses is a political construct. [20:33]
mircea_popescu a matter of conventional agreementr, currently overseen by exactly usg. [20:33]
mircea_popescu unless you wish to experimentally prove that ~you~ can insert leap seconds into places. [20:33]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193597 exactly http://trilema.com/2009/hai-sa-facem-o-socoteala/ :D [20:34]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 19:17:10; ascii_field: '12 years public school, 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, 4 years post-doc. You are now over 30, deeply in debt, and starting life. Your idiot high school classmate who held a STOP sign at a construction site has been pulling $80K/year, has a fine home, wife, three kids, and a motor boat. His eldest son rakes in $850K/year tax-free facilitating recreational pharmaceuticals and an escort s [20:34]
assbot Hai sa facem o socoteala. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HcsbyU ) [20:34]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193615 << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature. [20:35]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 19:38:22; ascii_field: one can have one coming out of ears and arse, and lack the other entirely [20:35]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193627 << this is not unlike inquiring "what makes the sterile woman the waste of chocolate that she is". she only becomes that if you put her in a matronly role. otherwise, i wouldn't want a fertile catwoman. [20:37]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 19:46:07; ascii_field: what makes the exam champ the waste of oxygen that he is ? [20:37]
mircea_popescu so the problem there is of management not of nature. chinese exam taker is a great asset in any sanely balanced system. [20:37]
mircea_popescu and generally, the quality of a system is to be measured by how many people it can make life meaningful for, not how many people it has to kill to survive. [20:37]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193636 << consider many of the things we regularly discuss here. most people are neither willing to consider not even willing to look upon the outrage that goes on daily, hourly. be it icons of say badly beaten up women, or whatever else. plenty of people keep lists of words they won't ever say. this disinclination ~to consider~, however the subject justifies it, is the c [20:40]
mircea_popescu ertainest macula of intellectual ineptitude. [20:40]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 19:51:46; ascii_field: the 'capable' part is definitely key. who hasn't met his fair share of hack writers, for instance, poor schmucks grasping desperately for one singe original idea? and never finding it [20:40]
mircea_popescu fact is, if you're not willing to consider the things you aren't going to do, your not doing them is not any sort merit, and it certainly won't ever work in your favour. [20:40]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193642 << is this an actual perspective, or is it a knot of nonsense ? [20:41]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 19:55:54; trinque: if he in fact has the capability, then the empathy which might cause him to accept someone else's perspective instead would only be a hindrance [20:41]
mircea_popescu http://polymatharchives.blogspot.in/2015/01/the-inappropriately-excluded.html << this thing is such bs. if the intelligent need to whine on an obscure blog, and for "society" to GIVE THEM shit they're about as intelligent as a mensa chapter. which isn't all that flattering. [20:42]
assbot The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hct624 ) [20:42]
trinque that's more or less what I got from asciilifeform, that he was describing a person which, to put it in idiot's terms "does what makes sense to him" [20:43]
trinque could not find much clinical "psychopathy" in that [20:43]
trinque which leads me to suspect the term itself is stupid [20:43]
mircea_popescu not sure i follow. [20:44]
trinque I (perhaps incorrectly) take "psychopath" to be a political term, akin to "sociopath" [20:46]
trinque the former something like "does what he wants to, even if people cry" and the latter maybe "lies to his enemies, effectively" [20:46]
mircea_popescu hm [20:47]
mircea_popescu go on ? [20:47]
* punkman1 is now known as punkman [20:47]
trinque mostly just that; I hear these terms most often used by someone who thinks someone else has been unfair, and ought to be restrained by the state [20:47]
* assbot gives voice to punkman [20:47]
trinque was otherwise fishing for asciilifeform's definition of the term. [20:48]
punkman mircea_popescu: does romanian have a word for sociopath? [20:49]
mircea_popescu sociopat [20:50]
mircea_popescu just like in english, it doesn't actually mean anything, unlike english it is not used by the hipstery youth. [20:50]
punkman there's an academic word for it in greek, nobody ever uses it though [20:51]
mircea_popescu there is aschilopat, which is a purely nonsense word that is use to convey roughly the same notion, "invisible gross diformity worthy of pity" but it's blue collar slang mostly. [20:51]
trinque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_schizophrenia << this one's pretty good [20:52]
assbot Sluggish schizophrenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPONLJ ) [20:52]
trinque !s borderline [20:52]
assbot 30 results for 'borderline' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=borderline [20:52]
trinque http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2007/10/the_diagnosis_of_borderline_pe.html << found it [20:53]
assbot The Last Psychiatrist: The Diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder: What Does It Really Mean? ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPORuX ) [20:53]
* mircea_popescu drops http://trilema.com/2014/the-definitive-tract-on-sociopathy/ since we're on it [20:54]
assbot The definitive tract on sociopathy on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPOXmf ) [20:54]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193670 << the mother of all occultations yes [20:55]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 20:08:22; decimation: re: political time < it occurred to me that the far more obvious way of synchronizing a clock is to simply take note of the sunrise and/or sunset [20:55]
trinque "This is what sociopathy is : what the scum of the earth currently calls its betters." << right, soon to give way to "fagtalkers" [20:58]
trinque though one hopes it doesn't take long enough for that [20:58]
trinque I keep wanting to call that "inversion" [20:59]
trinque where something unnatural persists for so long it becomes the basis of comparison [20:59]
trinque eh unnatural is problematic [20:59]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193749 << this is an important point that i don't think asciilifeform fully digested. replay attacks that rely on block count do not work. actuall superior WORK has to be shown. [20:59]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 20:35:49; funkenstein_: the chain with the most work demonstrated wins [20:59]
BingoBoingo https://i.imgur.com/tTqFfvF.jpg [20:59]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPPp3Y ) [20:59]
punkman mircea_popescu: I liked the toilet analogy [21:00]
mircea_popescu trinque magic thinking is this all through [21:00]
trinque mhm [21:00]
mircea_popescu punkman how far off do you think tyhat piece is, as a local ? [21:00]
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mircea_popescu !up solrodar [21:01]
-assbot- You voiced solrodar for 30 minutes. [21:01]
* assbot gives voice to solrodar [21:01]
solrodar hello [21:02]
punkman mircea_popescu: close enough [21:02]
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* mircea_popescu is impressed with himself. [21:02]
mircea_popescu hello solrodar. who're you ? [21:02]
punkman maybe a good time for a translation of the older ones? gtranslate not doing them justice [21:02]
solrodar mircea_popescu: one of your blog readers [21:03]
solrodar I've made an attempt at the call graph you requested [21:03]
mircea_popescu o hey. [21:03]
solrodar http://imgh.us/bitcoin-dot.svg [21:03]
assbot Call graph ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hcvoyr ) [21:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform ^ [21:03]
mircea_popescu solrodar do you know what gpg is ? [21:03]
solrodar yes, but not used it [21:03]
mircea_popescu !h [21:03]
assbot http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot [21:03]
mircea_popescu solrodar consider register a signature with the bot. [21:04]
mircea_popescu registering* [21:04]
solrodar ok [21:04]
mircea_popescu also consider leaving a comment with the link and a functional email address on the trilema post. [21:05]
mircea_popescu (trying to make sure you can actually claim your prize - as it is anyone can in principle use a freenode nick) [21:05]
BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [21:15]
gribble Current Blocks: None | Current Difficulty: 4.940201493122746E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 364895 | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 13 hours, 16 minutes, and 1 second | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [21:16]
* assbot removes voice from solrodar [21:32]
BingoBoingo !up solrodar [21:36]
* assbot gives voice to solrodar [21:36]
* The20YearIRCloud has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) [21:40]
solrodar !rate assbot 1 testing [21:44]
assbot You must be rated before you can rate. [21:44]
solrodar heh [21:44]
ben_vulpes !rate solrodar 1 doolb wen [21:47]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/f2cf461b4bf2e335 [21:47]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.solrodar.1:898d1835333b88e8a1aeafa9acb92bbad9b839fc1cf4135f8a2ea7ea45bf4c5f [21:48]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for solrodar with note: doolb wen [21:48]
BingoBoingo solrodar: Now !up yourself [21:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00057586 = 6.3345 BTC [+] [21:51]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1194040 << sorry, totally useless [21:52]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 23:59:32; solrodar: http://imgh.us/bitcoin-dot.svg [21:52]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-07-2015#1192228 << see thread [21:52]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 21:11:38; ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four [21:52]
solrodar it's not great I know [21:52]
solrodar but if that's the actual structure of the code then what else can you do? [21:53]
shinohai I need a projector to see it [21:53]
asciilifeform solrodar: gonna tell me that the structure requires putting, e.g., CWalletDB::ReadBestBlock a mile away from AppInit2, even though the former connects to ~nothing else~ ???!! [21:53]
asciilifeform and see example of CreateNewBlock [21:55]
asciilifeform if you had ~only~ this chart, [21:55]
asciilifeform could you say what it calls ? [21:55]
asciilifeform i'd be lying if i said yes [21:55]
asciilifeform not trying to be a spoilsport, but pointing out fact [21:56]
solrodar yeah some things are oddly positioned [21:56]
trinque it's gonna take manual arrangement [21:56]
trinque no way around it [21:56]
asciilifeform trinque: i really don't understand why [21:56]
asciilifeform the most obvious problems have nothing to do with shortest paths [21:57]
trinque and/or some really nice force directed graph thing [21:57]
trinque of which I've found nothing but shit [21:57]
asciilifeform another problem is abominably small print [21:57]
asciilifeform at least 10% of the page should be occupied by letters. [21:57]
solrodar I don't think any amount of manual arrangement would shrink the overall size that much [21:58]
asciilifeform solrodar: tell you what. i'm not the one who put up the bounty (that was mircea_popescu) but i was the one who asked for the chart. if you can produce a dependency graph in s-expression format, embodying the info in this graph, ~and~ show me how to get same using open source utils, i will say the job is done [21:59]
solrodar there are so many edges that you need to leave space between the nodes to keep them from overlapping too much [21:59]
asciilifeform (the job won't be done, but it will become possible for me to do it) [21:59]
asciilifeform you know, there is no reason why all the letters have to be parallel with the bottom of the page [22:00]
asciilifeform plenty of room if you remove that limit [22:00]
solrodar I don't follow you [22:02]
solrodar what's parallel with what? [22:02]
asciilifeform the captions [22:02]
asciilifeform are all horizontal [22:02]
asciilifeform they don't have to be [22:02]
solrodar I don't see how changing that would give you more space [22:04]
BingoBoingo !b 9 [22:04]
assbot Last 9 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2SZRD5W.txt ) [22:04]
asciilifeform ferfuxxake [22:05]
asciilifeform i could draw the picture and explain. but then i will have drawn the picture [22:05]
BingoBoingo !b 2 [22:05]
assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0B3S7RR.txt ) [22:05]
solrodar I mean it's the positioning of the boxes which is the problem [22:06]
BingoBoingo The problem is the thing being modeled, hence the bounty [22:07]
* assbot removes voice from solrodar [22:07]
asciilifeform !up solrodar [22:08]
* assbot gives voice to solrodar [22:08]
solrodar you can get dot to lay the graph out from top to bottom rather than left to right, but it won't be any better [22:08]
asciilifeform wasn't the idea [22:08]
asciilifeform idea is, to make the text sit down at whatever angle is needed [22:08]
asciilifeform 31 degrees if need be [22:08]
asciilifeform or 5 [22:08]
asciilifeform to maximize space for the arrows. [22:09]
asciilifeform and other thing, if a node is a leaf of only one stem, it should be right next to it [22:10]
asciilifeform and not half the page away. [22:10]
asciilifeform there is room for this to be the case everywhere. [22:10]
solrodar yeah, I don't know why it doesn't always do that [22:11]
solrodar it's clearly doing it in some places [22:11]
asciilifeform because the tool is retarded [22:11]
asciilifeform i can use that tool too, you know. [22:11]
asciilifeform i don't need the garbage that comes out of codeviz or those other 3 [22:11]
asciilifeform i need a usable graph [22:11]
asciilifeform this is probably more than 1 btc worth of work [22:12]
asciilifeform and so i'm not holding my breath waiting for it to get done by anybody. [22:12]
solrodar looks that way [22:12]
solrodar so if I provide the graph in s-expression format with instructions, do you have any specific plan for visualizing it? [22:13]
solrodar or you just want the data to experiment? [22:13]
asciilifeform data. [22:14]
asciilifeform but not only it, but a complete recipe whereby i can regenerate it. [22:14]
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solrodar of course [22:14]
asciilifeform solrodar: might wanna ask mircea_popescu if he will award the prize for this item, which is not what he asked for, before putting in serious effort [22:15]
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solrodar at this stage the only extra effort is to output it in sexpr format rather than dot format [22:16]
solrodar I'm already pulling the graph into a script to do some filtering [22:16]
asciilifeform neat. [22:17]
* BingoBoingo wonders how his 0.7.2 qt build ever worked on OpenBSD [22:17]
asciilifeform thank you for the effort, solrodar [22:17]
solrodar because if you include all the low-level functions and bignum classes and so forth in the graph then it'll be 10 times worse [22:17]
asciilifeform eheheheeh wat [22:17]
asciilifeform these are missing?!!! [22:17]
asciilifeform then entirely useless [22:17]
asciilifeform i want every token [22:17]
asciilifeform in *.cpp and *.h [22:17]
asciilifeform in that tree. [22:18]
solrodar you can have every token [22:18]
asciilifeform gotta have those. [22:18]
solrodar including std:: and boost:: [22:18]
asciilifeform how did you even choose what to exclude ? [22:18]
solrodar just remove the filters [22:18]
asciilifeform where did the filter come from ? [22:18]
solrodar started with the standard library [22:18]
solrodar then cut out nodes with very high in-degree which appeared to be low-level functions [22:19]
punkman btw aren't all those stacked "using namespace std;" "using namespace boost;" statements a bad idea? [22:19]
asciilifeform would like a way of adjusting this [22:19]
solrodar yeah, it's just a list of regexes, you can change them as you like [22:19]
asciilifeform ok [22:19]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193949 << virtually all of them do, however. whether ~i~ choose to run ntp or not does not change the fact that the bulk of the network (including - though i can only suspect! - the mining bulk) does. [22:20]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:17; mircea_popescu: owner of node may choose to depend on it [22:20]
BingoBoingo solrodar: If your recipe works a narrative of it could be welcome qntra material [22:20]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193950 << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what [22:21]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:23; mircea_popescu: otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time. [22:21]
solrodar the one thing which is missing which you asked for is virtual function calls, which are only used in the keystore base class [22:21]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193951 << it's why they produce incompatible ones regularly. because no way to know if it happened or not yet, save for passage of time [22:21]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 23:19:24; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193532 << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either. [22:22]
solrodar they don't appear to be in the clang output [22:22]
asciilifeform solrodar: your tool doesn't see virtual functions ? [22:23]
solrodar it sees their implementations but it doesn't see calls to them via the virtual lookup mechanism [22:23]
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asciilifeform solrodar: and how do you know that they are only used in keystore base class ? [22:24]
solrodar grep virtual *.h :) [22:24]
asciilifeform fair enough. [22:25]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193979 << mircea_popescu misunderstood my point entirely. which was, that it is possible to have arbitrarily original ideas in, e.g., mathematics, while being certifiably worthless at 'making phriends and influencing people' [22:26]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 23:32:00; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193615 << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature. [22:26]
scoopbot_revived S.MPOE: Trader's Delight. http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/08/s-mpoe-traders-delight/ [22:26]
BingoBoingo ... << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what << How often? A minute over a century and ignoring should be fine [22:26]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: and if they decide that 'national s33k0000r1ty' requires a leap week ? [22:26]
asciilifeform to thwart 'financial terrorizm!!!1111' [22:27]
asciilifeform (aka bitcoin use) [22:27]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: The time nerds burn the... Well QuickTrip and CVS were done so I guess WalMart [22:27]
solrodar !rate ben_vulpes 1 welcomed me to #b-a [22:27]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/8c4aa8cc715c6d75 [22:27]
asciilifeform !rate solrodar 1 flow graphs [22:28]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/ebf2651b9eb17fd5 [22:28]
solrodar !v assbot:solrodar.rate.ben_vulpes.1:be7ce5a08c6698de2492a0c464338aa0a12c9c6070b6d7a9a6feffbe27ef763a [22:28]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for ben_vulpes with note: welcomed me to #b-a [22:28]
asciilifeform !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.solrodar.1:0a8d0ab5914fc2d41371f84fe250e40f9eab92aab2afdf54f7774066895e50c5 [22:28]
assbot Successfully added a rating of 1 for solrodar with note: flow graphs [22:28]
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BingoBoingo Leapweek would purely put USG time in the realm of clearly fiat time [22:29]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: it was always fiat time [22:29]
asciilifeform just as argentine peso was fiat when it was still worth real money [22:29]
asciilifeform we haven't invented non-fiat time yet [22:30]
BingoBoingo Yes, even with the Romans fiat time. But poerverted like now dollar fiat time. At present still enjoy 1934 dollar fiat time [22:30]
asciilifeform (yes, decimation will teach you to tell epoch time within +/1 1000 by using the stars and moon. that does not change the essence of the fact that global epoch synchronized by machines is a fiat - specifically usg - creature) [22:30]
decimation asciilifeform: how is 'mean solar day is split into two parts; divided into 24 peices' fiat time? [22:31]
decimation you were the one arguing to ditch leap seconds [22:31]
asciilifeform it is fiat if i can't see the sun and rely on the kind to tell me [22:31]
asciilifeform *king [22:31]
decimation okay. [22:31]
BingoBoingo As far as I can tell time does not exist other than as a projection perpetrated by the brain [22:31]
asciilifeform this is a subtle point, granted [22:31]
asciilifeform and i don't expect everyone to grasp it immediately [22:31]
decimation time is absolute, space squishes and streches to nail to its strictures [22:31]
decimation asciilifeform: what does 'time outside of humanity' even mean? [22:32]
BingoBoingo decimation: Astronomical time is probelematic in that we do not know if LizardHitler mothership can subtly tow sun a few miles or give the moon a push [22:32]
decimation sure, he could do that [22:32]
asciilifeform decimation: 'outside of humanity' is a tall order. and not what anybody was asking for [22:32]
asciilifeform just needs to be 'outside' to the same extent bitcoin is (or naively appears to be) [22:33]
asciilifeform that is, massively resistant to organized diddling [22:33]
decimation what's the use of 'bitcoin outside of humanity' [22:33]
asciilifeform !s martian bank [22:33]
assbot 6 results for 'martian bank' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=martian+bank [22:33]
decimation even martians could live with a 24-hour earth day [22:34]
decimation 'dude just tell us how to set our clocks' [22:34]
asciilifeform because they can all see the sun [22:35]
asciilifeform and feel its warmth [22:35]
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asciilifeform but say they lived underground, and could not. [22:35]
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asciilifeform the sun is almost literally blinding decimation, making the problem look far easier than it actually is for us [22:35]
asciilifeform pogo cannot see the sun! [22:35]
decimation aye, that's a problem [22:35]
decimation but quite separate than 'we depend on time' [22:36]
asciilifeform it cannot see the moon, or the stars [22:36]
decimation I guess I just can't see 'we need to sun' to be a huge limitation on any human endeavour [22:36]
asciilifeform in so far as you, i, and every other fella on the net wants to know 'what second' it is 'right now', we are dealing in usgtronics [22:36]
asciilifeform because there is no other known way to do it [22:36]
asciilifeform within any kind of serious accuracy [22:36]
decimation yes, but that's conditional [22:36]
decimation and we don't need serious accuracy [22:37]
decimation +/- 5 min would be fine [22:37]
decimation or even more [22:37]
asciilifeform actually we do [22:37]
asciilifeform because drift [22:37]
decimation easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon [22:37]
asciilifeform long enough at +/- 5m and we get >2h off [22:37]
asciilifeform and it's game over. [22:37]
decimation yeah but these aren't launching into space [22:37]
asciilifeform they sorta are. [22:37]
decimation can emerge, get reset [22:37]
asciilifeform not from under the bed of the gurlz mircea_popescu picks up and pogopregnates [22:38]
decimation well, if that were a hard spec I would agree, need txco or ocxo [22:38]
decimation and there's no way around it, if actual human cannot set [22:38]
williamdunne From the looks of things, S.MPOE used to have a thousand BTC or so volume per day [22:38]
williamdunne Pretty solid [22:38]
decimation or we cannot build a trusted network of time sources [22:38]
asciilifeform my argument was that this apparently-unsolvable problem can be solved [22:39]
asciilifeform if a certain constraint is loosenes [22:39]
decimation you mean modifying the bitcoind to accept wider windows of blocks? [22:39]
BingoBoingo easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon << This leads you to my world, where my mechinical autowinding watch is always perfectly accurate because I declare it so [22:39]
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asciilifeform to have the concept of difficulty, nodes only need to know that time has passed, using a timebase that 1) is independent variable from aggregate hash 2) is prohibitively expensive to manipulate [22:39]
decimation BingoBoingo: can you use your winding to predict the sunrise [22:40]
asciilifeform i possibly have a scheme for this. but it won't help pogo, because this is no longer bitcoin [22:40]
asciilifeform right now i don't know how to help the pogo problem. [22:40]
mats recently S.MPOE has stood still [22:40]
decimation asciilifeform: you do, it involves hardware [22:40]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu et al were contemplating a surrender to ntp even. [22:40]
mats its a real bummer [22:40]
decimation unless you just want to give into ntp [22:40]
BingoBoingo decimation: Realtive to UTC, yes. I live about a minute in a half to UTC's future [22:40]
asciilifeform decimation: adding any hardware at all will raise the cost to where we no longer have anything over the phoundation. [22:40]
asciilifeform and their standard x86 turd boards. [22:41]
decimation well, if that's a hard spec, and 'launch into space' is a hard spec, the project is a failure [22:41]
decimation unless you are willing to accept the risk of a global ntp/router delay attack [22:41]
BingoBoingo to the extent ntp is depended upon by other implementations, it seems ntp servers may need to be polled. If they need to be polled the prolly ought to be polled at arc4random() intervals selecting arc4random() out of the pool each go [22:43]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: my concern was blackholing [22:43]
decimation BingoBoingo: ascii's argument is that method is defeated if enemy controlls isp [22:43]
BingoBoingo Serious concern [22:43]
asciilifeform where every single ntp query gets picked up by your isp and replaced. [22:43]
asciilifeform this is realistic, because nothing but pogo will seriously fail if this were done [22:44]
asciilifeform it's a cheap bullet with our name on it [22:44]
shinohai T_T [22:44]
decimation I dispuse the 'nothing but pogo would fail' [22:45]
decimation plenty of shit is poorly engineered into depending on that kind of stuff [22:45]
asciilifeform say my isp makes all ntp queries chronically 3 minutes off into the past [22:45]
BingoBoingo Only way to truly defeat ISP is mock over the horizon radar which can force PCB to recieve all data as an involuntary antenna. [22:45]
BingoBoingo say my isp makes all ntp queries chronically 3 minutes off into the past << Burn a Walmart [22:45]
asciilifeform eventually pogo drifts off into neverneverland [22:45]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: you won't know that you have segmented into a parallel universe [22:46]
asciilifeform not like pogo has a screen, where it tells you that it is (or is not) receiving valid blocks [22:46]
asciilifeform for that matter, 'you' may be one of mircea_popescu's pogopregnated chixxx [22:46]
asciilifeform and have no idea what a block is. [22:46]
asciilifeform or what that box he plugged into your wall is for [22:46]
BingoBoingo Perhaps L1 and L2 pogo impregnators should herd the impregnated pogos [22:47]
asciilifeform all ~100 of us ? [22:47]
asciilifeform lol [22:47]
decimation no just pogo but all ntp clients [22:47]
decimation and such an error, if it ends up driving the clock off by several minutes, would be detectable in a variety of ways [22:48]
asciilifeform how? [22:49]
BingoBoingo NBC [22:49]
asciilifeform detecting an off clock requires another [22:49]
decimation well, predicting sunrise for one [22:49]
BingoBoingo ABC, FOX, et al [22:49]
asciilifeform again with the sun and stars [22:49]
decimation some other isp client finds his computer is 'off' [22:49]
asciilifeform again with the human eyes and hands. [22:49]
asciilifeform i specified a problem. what is the point of saying 'no, let's solve this other trivial problem' [22:50]
decimation your scenario would imply that no human looks at the time served by said isp [22:50]
asciilifeform i already know how to do that. [22:50]
decimation I'm emphasizing the sun because that's the policy by which time is defined [22:51]
decimation usg didn't make this policy any more than england did [22:52]
asciilifeform sure [22:52]
decimation and usg fucking with the way computers distribute time would ultimately be noticed by some innocent bystander [22:52]
asciilifeform but we don't have a mechanism of syncing n-bit counters with second resolution across a planet that ~doesn't~ operate at hitler's pleasure. [22:52]
decimation don't need second resolution [22:52]
asciilifeform decimation: one very obvious way for it to fuck, and be noticed, is to simply fail [22:53]
decimation as in, terminate all ntp services? [22:53]
asciilifeform aha [22:53]
asciilifeform from lack of money to pay the electric bill, say. [22:53]
decimation I would also note that if the pogo clock varies in a systematic way (constant frequency error) [22:54]
decimation it could be corrected [22:54]
asciilifeform as far as i can tell, it does not. [22:54]
asciilifeform and the reason is no mystery [22:54]
asciilifeform (interrupts vary quite unpredictably) [22:54]
decimation yeah, makes sens [22:54]
decimation so if the pogo syncs to a random node once per month and keeps time within a few minutes, it'll be fine [22:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31452 @ 0.00057008 = 17.9302 BTC [-] {2} [22:55]
decimation is it vulnerable? yes. more vulnerable than proof-of-work? yes, if in the hands of an idiot [22:55]
asciilifeform random node ? [22:55]
asciilifeform which also gets to drift ? [22:56]
decimation ntp node [22:56]
decimation most ntp nodes are tracable to some source (yes often usg) to two layers [22:56]
decimation but that usg clock is depended on by and awful lot of shit [22:56]
decimation if usg starts messing with gps it would be quickly noticed and shouted at [22:56]
asciilifeform decimation: there is no reason why ~all~ ntp servers proper would have to be diddled [22:57]
asciilifeform just the queries from known bitcoin nodes [22:57]
asciilifeform incl pogo [22:57]
asciilifeform not like it's a secret who they are. [22:57]
decimation agreed, but to selectively fuck with known bitcoin nodes would imply the deployment of an awful lot of hardware and expertise globally [22:57]
asciilifeform tomorrow hitler says 'anybody talking on 8333 gets timewarped' [22:57]
asciilifeform won't affect anything else. [22:58]
decimation hitler spends $100 mil to do it? [22:58]
asciilifeform it's deployed! [22:58]
asciilifeform already! [22:58]
asciilifeform srsly [22:58]
asciilifeform what do you suppose 'narus' makes ? [22:58]
decimation you think you could call up your local comcastic office, pretend to be hitler, and demand that a particular protocol be selectively fucked with? [22:58]
asciilifeform you - no [22:58]
asciilifeform the folks with the key to room 641a - yes [22:58]
decimation that's one chokepoint [22:58]
asciilifeform they don't work for crapcast either [22:58]
asciilifeform they come and go when they want. [22:59]
decimation no reason your ntp query need cross it [22:59]
asciilifeform it is merely an example [22:59]
asciilifeform of how it is done [22:59]
decimation yes, and I"m sure it's not cheap [22:59]
decimation nor easily mass deployed [22:59]
asciilifeform there is a 'room 641a' at every single major infrastructural junction [22:59]
asciilifeform certainly in nato-reich [22:59]
decimation not every isp office [22:59]
asciilifeform and similar in ru, cn [22:59]
asciilifeform every backbone. [22:59]
decimation so, don't cross backbones [23:00]
decimation or, cross several [23:00]
asciilifeform and the argument that some backwards isp, somewhere, may not be 'up to date', does not sway me. [23:00]
BingoBoingo I guess Bitcoin builds an Argentina, Phillipines, somolia, ISIS backbone and moves geographically [23:00]
decimation but your 'fucked with at the isp level' argument falls apart in that case [23:00]
asciilifeform at what level the fucking will be done, is debatable [23:01]
asciilifeform but that it is doable, and trivial, and can be carried out in such a way as to affect only known bitcoin nodes, seems obvious to me [23:01]
decimation I would agree that if the pogo needs to be launched into space, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it knew where it was on the internet topology, especially relative to other bitcoin nodes [23:02]
decimation asciilifeform: it's possible but again it requires expertise and equipment [23:02]
decimation comcast can barely keeps the lights running [23:02]
asciilifeform comcast - sure [23:02]
asciilifeform upstream - no [23:02]
asciilifeform and this kind of dull, mechanistic diddlage is precisely what usg specializes in [23:02]
asciilifeform no imagination needed [23:02]
asciilifeform just mutilate packets if regexp matches. [23:03]
decimation what usg agency would perform this work domestically? [23:03]
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asciilifeform at&t. [23:04]
decimation they ain't gonna do it for free [23:04]
decimation and 'fucking with bitcoin' is probably pretty low on usg's hitlist (not that it should be so low) [23:04]
asciilifeform how the hell would i (or anyone else) know where it is on what list ? [23:05]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu's intel dept. - possibly [23:05]
asciilifeform me? no [23:05]
asciilifeform but i don't get to say 'it's low on the list, let's all sleep' [23:05]
BingoBoingo I doubt that after today. After the Chicom stockmarket sell embargo and NYSE glitch [23:05]
decimation neither do I. but assuming the pogo isn't a complete bust, someone's gonna have to evaluate the risk [23:06]
asciilifeform my point is that this kind of attack is not only the kind of thing usg specializes in, but pretty much the only thing they know how to do at all [23:06]
decimation how would you know that, if you don't know the hitlist [23:06]
asciilifeform can't know. only conjecture. [23:07]
asciilifeform based on existing nonsense coming out of the we-don't-know-how-to-break-rsa-yet-agency [23:07]
asciilifeform no idea what the ~other~ nsa does [23:07]
asciilifeform that gun hasn't publicly fired yet. [23:07]
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BingoBoingo !up Vexual [23:11]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00056898 = 6.2588 BTC [-] [23:11]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193991 << was linked as 'entomological sample' ! specifically, example of folks 'spinning their wheels' [23:13]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 23:39:06; mircea_popescu: http://polymatharchives.blogspot.in/2015/01/the-inappropriately-excluded.html << this thing is such bs. if the intelligent need to whine on an obscure blog, and for "society" to GIVE THEM shit they're about as intelligent as a mensa chapter. which isn't all that flattering. [23:13]
asciilifeform i bet if some helpful fella gave them a few kg of plastique each, they would put it to good use... [23:13]
asciilifeform just as mr stack probably would have [23:13]
asciilifeform and what, precisely, ought one expect of folks raised in a zoo? [23:14]
asciilifeform how do lions in the zoo get things, other than being 'given' ? [23:14]
decimation http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-07-2015#1188651 < a map that demonstrates your point: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/07/mapping-the-us-by-property-value-instead-of-land-area/397841/ [23:16]
assbot Logged on 05-07-2015 21:44:22; mircea_popescu: that's really the tension here : usians currently use the us like inept argentines: they huddle around the coast and pull their cocks. [23:16]
assbot A Map of the U.S. by Property Value Instead of Land Area - CityLab ... ( http://bit.ly/1TmJRPW ) [23:16]
asciilifeform the coasts are where usg hands out payola. [23:17]
decimation "The total value of all the residential property in Kentucky ($300 billion) falls just short of the value of all the housing property in Queens ($317 billion). The housing value of the Upper East Side all by itself is greater than that of six states." [23:17]
asciilifeform hence folks live there. [23:17]
decimation aye [23:17]
asciilifeform it hands it out there for historical reasons (it is where the majority of the chump candidates live, given as that is where the anthill mega-cities are found) [23:18]
asciilifeform on account of having been built there back when actual honest commerce was a thing [23:18]
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asciilifeform but point of fact is, to ~me~ kentucky may as well be pluto [23:19]
asciilifeform and to everyone i know. [23:19]
BingoBoingo decimation: Too be fair Kentucky isn't "flat" enough for intentive Monsanto'ing [23:19]
decimation asciilifeform: it's actually a pretty nice place [23:19]
asciilifeform aha [23:19]
asciilifeform pluto is nice too, i hear [23:20]
asciilifeform in its own way [23:20]
decimation nydwracu pointed out how coast elites treat anywhere 100 miles inland in the us as 'foriegn country' [23:20]
BingoBoingo Kentucky is beautiful. Like Southern Illinois, but entirely politically divorced from Chicago aside from Obola [23:20]
asciilifeform because it is. [23:20]
asciilifeform because wtf can you live on there. [23:20]
BingoBoingo nydwracu pointed out how coast elites treat anywhere 100 miles inland in the us as 'foriegn country' << I prefer this arrangement [23:21]
asciilifeform that's what 'foreign country' even ~means~, historically [23:21]
asciilifeform that one is not wanted there. [23:21]
asciilifeform kentucky, or argentina, etc, literally don't need me in particular for anything but 'weight in pork' [23:21]
asciilifeform if that. [23:21]
asciilifeform doesn't mean that i dislike those places, or their inhabitants [23:22]
asciilifeform ar, in particular, i liked very much. [23:22]
asciilifeform and the inhabitants. [23:23]
decimation yeah, I get it, the meatwot is important [23:24]
decimation also being within 'reasonable transport' distance of good food, places of learning, etc [23:25]
decimation I predict that if the 'hyperloop' actually works (dubious) it would rot the suburbs around megacities [23:25]
decimation a sizable chunk of the wash dc population would move 100-200 miles away if they could commute in 15 minutes [23:26]
decimation if not farther [23:26]
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decimation !up The20YearIRCloud [23:28]
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The20YearIRCloud It's alive! [23:28]
williamdunne What's alive? [23:29]
The20YearIRCloud Boy I had a crappy day, one of the renters called me and nothing would drain. Only to find out they've been parking a car on the main drain line. I offered to go out rather than my crew to take care of it, 3hrs later and $400 we've determined that it's all due to someone parking on the drain line and actually pushing it out of the fittings. [23:29]
The20YearIRCloud The chat! [23:29]
asciilifeform wai wat [23:30]
asciilifeform these drains are made of rubber ?! [23:30]
asciilifeform The20YearIRCloud: how is it even physically possible ? [23:30]
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asciilifeform i, for instance, park on top of my house's drain pipe every single day. [23:30]
decimation yeah, like did they forget to use pvc cement? [23:30]
The20YearIRCloud loose soil, 3000lbs car sitting on it ~10hrs/day [23:31]
asciilifeform i know where it is, because the city excavated it last year. [23:31]
asciilifeform it is two metres under the asphalt. [23:31]
asciilifeform ah [23:31]
The20YearIRCloud there was a 8ft PVC section between two clay drain sections [23:31]
The20YearIRCloud This was 4ft under soil [23:31]
decimation clay drain? Like terra cotta? [23:31]
The20YearIRCloud yep [23:31]
The20YearIRCloud 110 year old drain [23:32]
asciilifeform where was this? africa ? [23:32]
decimation lul [23:32]
The20YearIRCloud still works somewhat well, but parking on it certainly hasn't helped things [23:32]
The20YearIRCloud Part of that $400 was to have a guy come out with a camera and inspect the line [23:32]
decimation the 'loose soil' must be underneath the pipe [23:33]
decimation I would guess the drain is eroding the surrounding soil [23:33]
The20YearIRCloud Quite possibly, there's a concrete walkway that's actually sunk down about 6" [23:34]
decimation lul [23:34]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2015#1194417 << remember how the spiel went when the highways were built ? [23:34]
assbot Logged on 09-07-2015 02:22:22; decimation: a sizable chunk of the wash dc population would move 100-200 miles away if they could commute in 15 minutes [23:34]
decimation asciilifeform: except the highways were ultimately not built [23:34]
asciilifeform the only thing new infrastructure is used for, in usa, is to pack in more chumps for same kind of life. [23:34]
asciilifeform there will simply be more folks who get to drive the obligatory 1-2 hr [23:34]
decimation md 200 should be a full freeway, connect with 95 on at least two other river crossings [23:34]
asciilifeform and if it were ? [23:35]
asciilifeform they'd just put 2x as many 500k houses in. [23:35]
decimation asciilifeform: yes but I'm convinced the reason that people live 2 hours away is because of zoning policy [23:35]
decimation could easily fit the entire metro area's population inside the beltway (affordably) if you could build 50 story highrises [23:36]
decimation but there's this weird need to have 'own country estate' in the us [23:36]
asciilifeform not weird at all [23:36]
asciilifeform ~i~ want to put as much distance as possible between own arse and these folks. [23:37]
asciilifeform it makes god's own sense to me [23:37]
asciilifeform that they would feel same way. [23:37]
decimation actually I agree with you, I feel the same way to some degree [23:37]
decimation my theory is that the space you had as a child 'imprints' [23:37]
asciilifeform aha [23:37]
decimation city kid can live in apartment for life [23:37]
decimation suburb kid needs a suburb [23:37]
The20YearIRCloud Not all people are like that, in Columbus they're building lots of 30-40 story apartments because people want em [23:38]
asciilifeform i grew up in a city [23:38]
The20YearIRCloud They're relatively cheap - $150k-$200k in really well-to-do areas, people want em because they're in the middle of everything and cheap [23:38]
asciilifeform but it had almost no traffic [23:38]
The20YearIRCloud But personally, I'd never want to live there [23:38]
asciilifeform so traffic noises drive me batshit [23:38]
asciilifeform as do screaming morons [23:38]
decimation The20YearIRCloud: yeah but in columbus at least it is legal to build more than 5 stories [23:38]
asciilifeform we didn't have those, either [23:38]
The20YearIRCloud Correct, why it's cheap [23:38]
trinque I spent time on a large farm as a kid, cannot stand the population density of cities [23:39]
trinque so naturally I live in one [23:39]
The20YearIRCloud I can't wait to go back to a farm setting [23:39]
trinque just the background noise is irritating, like living in an engine room [23:39]
The20YearIRCloud Yeah [23:39]
The20YearIRCloud I don't like that, but i REALLY don't like not being able to stand on the back porch and not see anything [23:40]
decimation but this means that there are probably many people who are 'trapped' - desire more space between themselves and others - but cannot move away in order to keep a job [23:40]
The20YearIRCloud As it stands now ,if I do that here I see tall grass, a trailer, a half plywood house, then a large agricultural facility [23:40]
trinque The20YearIRCloud: ah man, best thing in the world is to not see another human in any direction [23:40]
decimation 70-80% of the population in cities ? [23:40]
trinque but to each his own [23:40]
asciilifeform what trinque said [23:40]
The20YearIRCloud Off the back porch on the farm, the closest house was 2mi [23:40]
asciilifeform except that i also want to not have to see them ever [23:40]
decimation asciilifeform: you should buy a farm in kentucky [23:40]
asciilifeform that sounds like actual work [23:41]
asciilifeform fuck that [23:41]
The20YearIRCloud We have areas here in ohio that have less population than many in kentucky [23:41]
decimation go 'full perelman' [23:41]
asciilifeform perelman, as i understand, lives off his mother's pension. [23:42]
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trinque I'm thinking getting some land in Washington state might be ideal [23:42]
decimation trinque: not west of the mountains? [23:42]
trinque close enough to drive to seattle shortly, but far enough to not know it [23:42]
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decimation !up warptangent [23:43]
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decimation !up Vexual [23:43]
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trinque decimation: not sure, I've yet to spend time east of them [23:43]
trinque maybe there's something nice down 90 waiting for me [23:43]
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phf i lived 8 hours north of anchorage for 6 months or so, working remote. when i get out of the house in the morning my ears would heart from the silence. best 6 months of my life [23:44]
asciilifeform ^ [23:44]
trinque sounds lovely. [23:44]
The20YearIRCloud hurt or heart? [23:44]
The20YearIRCloud Silence? No wind or animals? [23:44]
trinque and the concentration that can be mustered (in my case at least) cannot be matched inside the engine room [23:45]
phf The20YearIRCloud: after a bit your start hearing the trees lightly creaking in the wind [23:45]
The20YearIRCloud I know on the farm it wasn't really ever quiet, there was always something [23:45]
The20YearIRCloud but going from that to the city is very, very hard [23:46]
asciilifeform another device that did not exist in the city where i grew up was: the subwoofer [23:46]
trinque sure, wind, bugs [23:46]
trinque but things your mind is quite used to [23:46]
decimation asciilifeform: especially mobile ones? [23:46]
asciilifeform any kind [23:46]
phf The20YearIRCloud: this was on denali highway which is a kind of a wind tunnel nearby from a glacier. most of it is freezing all the way till mid summer (though i don't know, i spent a winter there) [23:46]
* decimation has subwoofers, but attenuates by 30 dB at least [23:46]
trinque as opposed to the hiss of hydraulic brakes, blare of horns, rumble of combustion engines [23:46]
decimation I find it really annoying to have muddled bass [23:47]
trinque bugs I can tune out easily [23:47]
asciilifeform it isn't even that su didn't know how to make loudspeakers [23:47]
asciilifeform but that the idea of turning one on inside a block of flats... [23:47]
phf The20YearIRCloud: but when the wind dies down (mornings mostly) it's what i would call dignified solitude. mountains, quiet. lots of interesting people living within 100 mile range :> [23:47]
The20YearIRCloud hmm [23:48]
phf http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rw9Z6h3DDMo/TrTY5FJydDI/AAAAAAAAG4Y/m-uVqliksdA/s1600/denali%2Bhwy-6.jpg [23:54]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1dNhE4G ) [23:54]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193778 << the going rate in that market is a few hundred. [23:58]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 20:42:45; bagels7: i'll be your slave for a million dollars on a 5 year basis [23:58]
* assbot removes voice from The20YearIRCloud [23:58]
mircea_popescu an' for that matter the "basis" doesn't work like you imagine it does. [23:59]
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