Forum logs for 07 Jul 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [07:53]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [07:53]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [07:53]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [07:53]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [07:53]
* samO_ (~samO@unaffiliated/samo) has joined #bitcoin-assets [07:54]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ? [07:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16375 @ 0.00053429 = 8.749 BTC [-] [07:56]
* samO has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [07:58]
mircea_popescu << cool! [07:58]
assbot Logged on 06-07-2015 22:18:29; TomServo: Ahoy all, just wanted to pass long: my 0.5.3 node is humming along, currently reporting blockheight 364171. [07:58]
mircea_popescu << roflmao. "oh hello we are a cutting edge bleedin' tech company. what we do is we put tickets in cloudflare." [07:59]
assbot Logged on 06-07-2015 22:34:34; pete_dushenski: "CoinbaseAdrian 30 points an hour ago* : Sorry guys, we're looking into this. It appears to be an issue with our network provider (Cloudflare). We have an urgent ticket open with them and I'll update here with any details." << response to coinbase being offline [07:59]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds. [08:02]
mircea_popescu obviously, a kludge. [08:02]
shinohai I am at height 361167 his morning. Agonizingly slow. [08:03]
mircea_popescu ;;bc,stats [08:04]
gribble Current Blocks: 360472 | Current Difficulty: 47589591153.625 | Next Difficulty At Block: 360863 | Next Difficulty In: 391 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 22 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [08:04]
mircea_popescu i beg your pardon ? [08:04]
punkman lol [08:04]
shinohai Either gribble is off or I am xD [08:04]
mircea_popescu "o hai folks i'm talking from day after tomorrow. time is moving by really really too slow!!!1" [08:04]
shinohai lol [08:05]
punkman gribble is stuck [08:05]
mircea_popescu ,yeah [08:05]
punkman 364240 is current height [08:05]
mircea_popescu i think we should have a network vote. [08:06]
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mircea_popescu everyone that thinks i should have smoked cheese and salmon breakfast, make your blocks v 666 [08:06]
mircea_popescu everyone that thinks i should have creme fraiche and strawberries, make your blocks v 1337 [08:06]
mircea_popescu best way to end up eating pork and beans or something [08:06]
shinohai [08:07]
assbot ... ( ) [08:07]
shinohai Lox and eggs for me this morning. [08:08]
mircea_popescu << the point that "bitcoin core" = unsafe at any version is really not made often enough. [08:08]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:05:07; BingoBoingo: [08:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35150 @ 0.00053178 = 18.6921 BTC [-] [08:09]
mircea_popescu an' in other news, [08:10]
assbot ... ( ) [08:10]
shinohai She looks tall enough to ride this ride. [08:10]
shinohai Just noticed dat tat [08:12]
mircea_popescu "Market forces will prevail and miners will have to adapt." loller. [08:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00053461 = 10.5853 BTC [+] {2} [08:12]
mircea_popescu i thought reddit didn't believe in "market forces". [08:12]
shinohai reddit believes *they* are the market force, or so I thought. [08:13]
punkman [08:13]
assbot Bitcoin Number Of transactions Per Day ... ( ) [08:13]
punkman apparently 200l+ transactions today [08:13]
punkman *200k [08:14]
mircea_popescu yeah, basically, whenever the market forces do what they expect they're all market-force-y, and when the market forces tell them to go dangle they're all democaca-y [08:14]
mircea_popescu which is a sort of macaque. [08:14]
mircea_popescu punkman there's some derps putting in like 1mn txn for 1 btc total fees. [08:14]
mircea_popescu which has the excellent side effect of taking the piss out of all the redditard "unbanked" who were used to pay 0 fees. [08:14]
shinohai So that explains the slow tx times today [08:15]
mircea_popescu been going for weeks. [08:15]
punkman does 0.0001 still get you in next block? [08:16]
mircea_popescu iirc thats what they pay. [08:16]
mircea_popescu so make it 0.00011 or something. [08:16]
mircea_popescu << quite. [08:16]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:09:17; decimation: unfortunately blockheight is only a solid concept in retrospect [08:16]
mircea_popescu might have been 0.00001 what they paid, i dun recall. look at the backlog should be obvious [08:17]
shinohai I thought that the 0.1% per 1 BTC transacted was reasonable, as set out in the Declaration of Sovereignty. [08:18]
mircea_popescu << a very stupid system incidentally. mirroring the unixtime idiocy. just take the cesium, base everytrhing on that. [08:18]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:06; decimation: point being, someone derives time (the iers) from astronomy, sets the cesium, and broadcasts it [08:18]
punkman "I run the restaurant from 1996, its a family business. I work here with my father and my mother. We only cook traditional Greek food. We accept Bitcoin for payments. They have come 6-8 people pay with Bitcoin from Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Luxembourg but i hope for more people with Bitcoins" [08:19]
mircea_popescu shinohai unrelated things tho. a tx is a tx, it charges by byte. [08:19]
punkman 6-8 people since 2012 :D [08:19]
mircea_popescu punkman nb. name/address ? [08:19]
punkman [08:19]
assbot Page Redirection ... ( ) [08:19]
mircea_popescu << so far the balance of what i got was "man this site is confusing" in various tongues. [08:20]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:16; asciilifeform: unrelated: folks competing for mircea_popescu's 1 btc prize for therealbitcoin callgraph can strike 'egypt' utility off the list. it is a worthless pile of shit, which produces worthless piles of shit (at least for cpp proggy) [08:20]
mircea_popescu << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed. [08:21]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:17:01; asciilifeform: total waste of time. [08:21]
kakobrekla punkman you are greek? [08:21]
mircea_popescu i suppose we progressed from moore law's to this noore law. [08:21]
punkman I'm transgreek [08:21]
mircea_popescu ahahaha. [08:21]
mircea_popescu wasn't he from crete ? [08:21]
mircea_popescu which is greek in the sense etruria is latin ? [08:21]
punkman aye, Creta is nice [08:22]
* shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan [08:22]
mircea_popescu << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh. [08:23]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:23:25; asciilifeform: because i won't be running it. [08:23]
mircea_popescu << bwahahaha who the fuck does these things. [08:23]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 00:27:26; asciilifeform: and unable to distinguish between functions of same name in different classes [08:23]
kakobrekla greek islands are the best. i very much enjoyed them, perhaps mykonos the most. jurov would love it there, im sure. [08:23]
mircea_popescu << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money". [08:26]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 01:36:51; asciilifeform: so apparently they had to take the bank by storm. [08:26]
mircea_popescu 99999 Protocol version loller [08:27]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo << lulz mebbe worth a write-up ? [08:27]
assbot - Bitnodes ... ( ) [08:27]
mircea_popescu << nah. does not work. [08:29]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 02:11:39; asciilifeform: difficulty oughta have been defined in relation to the difficulty of the last solved block, solely. [08:29]
mircea_popescu the "difficulty of last solved block" does not exist [08:30]
assbot [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 473 @ 0.00408605 = 1.9327 BTC [-] {2} [08:30]
mircea_popescu in that difficulty is a statistical measure and statistics of sets of one is undefined. [08:30]
punkman difficulty target is a number [08:30]
mircea_popescu that it is. [08:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18700 @ 0.00053144 = 9.9379 BTC [-] {2} [08:31]
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mircea_popescu for students of the bitcoin protocol actually interested in learning how it works, create a list of all block hashes, calculate implied difficulty on that basis, compare to actual difficulty at the time and calculate variance etc. nice graphs to be had. [08:31]
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mircea_popescu << experimentally, i have a lot more faith in things that barely survive than in Britannia eternal. experimentally, the former do survive, the latter crash on the jagged shores of time. [08:34]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 02:21:03; asciilifeform: the thing barely survives today, much less ww3 [08:34]
Adlai mircea_popescu: too bad only the dumb&industrious students will do that. the smart&lazy just go to sipa's charts... [08:35]
mircea_popescu << the hardware belongs to miners. miners direct the hashing at pools, doing very little validation whatsoever. so, 100% of mining power does in fact not run bitcoin at all. [08:35]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 02:26:24; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: unless i seriously misunderstand, 50%+ of the hash rate belongs to folks ~who aren't even running bitcoin~ but a toystore version [08:35]
mircea_popescu then, of THOSE POOLS it turned out that ~50% are too confused to even lie. [08:35]
mircea_popescu they simply say things that bear an impredictable (to them first of all) relationship to reality. [08:36]
mircea_popescu Adlai this sort of smartness i'll gladly do without. [08:36]
mircea_popescu it is the smartness of the nor merely dumb, but unrescuably so. [08:36]
mircea_popescu (yes, there's a smartness of the dumb, like there's a richness of the poor and a cleanliness of the filthy and honesty of politicians and so on and so forth.) [08:38]
Adlai eloquence of the mute [08:38]
mircea_popescu now that actually works. [08:38]
mircea_popescu << riiight. hopefully they call them service packs. [08:39]
shinohai [08:39]
assbot ... ( ) [08:39]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 02:45:29; assbot: Why Ubuntu plans to replace traditional Linux packages with something better | PCWorld ... ( ) [08:39]
punkman heh [08:39]
shinohai And LOL @ this address: [08:42]
assbot ... ( ) [08:42]
mircea_popescu lmao decimation ends up putting a dime in the pot ? [08:43]
punkman shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan << here have a cretan instead [08:43]
assbot ... ( ) [08:43]
Adlai vanity address of a stressed tester [08:43]
shinohai punkman: I like it, he smokes. [08:43]
kakobrekla dunno, my txes get confirmed in first block w/o any fees. you people don't know how to curate your outputs. [08:46]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla you have old coinbases. [08:47]
mircea_popescu we're talking the problems of poorfags here. [08:47]
kakobrekla old, big, curated etc [08:47]
mircea_popescu aham. but all the curation in the world won [08:47]
mircea_popescu 't help your .5 btc you just got from coinbase. [08:47]
mircea_popescu <<==>> [08:49]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 03:38:12; mats: << news of your celebrity in .ar, bagels7 [08:49]
assbot Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [08:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.0005312 = 3.4528 BTC [-] [08:49]
mircea_popescu the "press" is on a repeater mode with that crud [08:49]
mircea_popescu it has exactly 0 reporting value. [08:49]
mircea_popescu << you have changed nothing in the scheme, just made its problems perhaps less easy to observe because hey, frantic activity with b inoculars now. [08:51]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 04:01:47; decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test [08:51]
mircea_popescu what is the difference between ntp telling you what time it is and *tp telling you what to observe ? [08:51]
mircea_popescu << there are so many of these by now, all it takes is a little phuctor scratching to send the hive crazy. [08:54]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 04:17:52; asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for. [08:54]
mircea_popescu because "people" of the pale complexion have allowed themselves to be trained in such god-awful conformity, and the space of possibilities has lain fallow for so long, to be shat into by alf's smirking plumbooker, that it's getting fucking filled. [08:55]
shinohai [08:55]
assbot OneRNG - Hardware Random Number Generator ... ( ) [08:55]
mircea_popescu << i still do not approve of the proof. [08:56]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 04:26:43; *: asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing [08:56]
mircea_popescu << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh. [08:57]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 04:42:30; asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement [08:57]
mircea_popescu << heh. buy moar pmbs!! [08:57]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 06:55:52; cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out [08:57]
mircea_popescu << which explains why they gotta be both "professionals" and "scholars'. random schmucks not a good enough descriptor, specifically ebcause it fits so well. [08:59]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 07:51:18; punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work." [08:59]
mircea_popescu then stolfi wonders whether i want to be this or that title. as if a title is in any way useful or related to me. [08:59]
mircea_popescu but hey. professional scholars. all that fits in their head are names. [08:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12251 @ 0.00053486 = 6.5526 BTC [+] [08:59]
mircea_popescu the names of the places they'll never see. what exactly is the difference between an academitard and a housewife watching discovery channel i shall never know. [09:00]
punkman does US have translators that only speak English? [09:00]
mircea_popescu they both engage in making predictions, which are about as interesting and useful. [09:00]
mircea_popescu ahaha [09:00]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23763 @ 0.0005312 = 12.6229 BTC [-] [09:01]
mircea_popescu << actually, muh intel found the exact stuff fca derps are derping about today, soime point in 2013. kakobrekla got put through some questioning at the time, which iirc is on the public record [09:02]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 08:27:37; jurov: >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges... [09:02]
mircea_popescu in the end it came to exactly the same thing, not scammed anyone to anyone's knowledge, and why exactly would i put so much power in the hands of inept fiat "regulatory bodies" [09:02]
punkman it was an old article, I also posted it before I think [09:03]
mircea_popescu could be. [09:03]
punkman can't find it in the logs :( [09:03]
mircea_popescu in any case i recall f.mpif had an investment with a derivative something for a few months. [09:05]
mircea_popescu but iirc the star trader quit and the fund closed down or somesuch. [09:06]
mircea_popescu anyway, if he does the assbot thing i'm definitely going to allow selected l2 people to manage f.mpif pcs. [09:07]
mircea_popescu should be the fun of all time. [09:07]
kakobrekla well, not really quit, but euro decided to go to shit and specifications of fund did not go along with that [09:07]
punkman why is assbot wallet needed for mpif pcs? [09:07]
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mircea_popescu punkman cuz i say ? [09:08]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla a, right, volatility went up right then [09:09]
mircea_popescu i recall now. [09:09]
punkman mircea_popescu: well, sure. [09:09]
kakobrekla there was just one possible winning move, short and dont look. [09:09]
mircea_popescu anyway, im out. bbl. [09:10]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21050 @ 0.00053486 = 11.2588 BTC [+] [09:22]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00053307 = 12.3672 BTC [-] [09:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28600 @ 0.00053591 = 15.327 BTC [+] {3} [10:05]
shinohai [10:09]
assbot HSBC employees sacked after staging ISIS-style mock execution during team building exercise | Descrier News ... ( ) [10:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22418 @ 0.0005312 = 11.9084 BTC [-] [10:12]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42600 @ 0.00053854 = 22.9418 BTC [+] {3} [10:32]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34356 @ 0.0005405 = 18.5694 BTC [+] {2} [10:56]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60600 @ 0.0005312 = 32.1907 BTC [-] [11:00]
mats nobody can take a joke anymore [11:06]
shinohai ? [11:10]
shinohai Oh, the article you must mean [11:10]
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asciilifeform << yes. node - synced (as discussed yesterday.) wanted copy for study. [11:22]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 10:50:32; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ? [11:22]
asciilifeform << pogo has to work when plugged into the wall! what 'switch' ?!! and you cannot learn ~anything~ about the current time from a purported block. this is circular logic!1111 block is only valid ~if~ within 2h of current time. any backflow can and will result in enemies 'nudging' the time [11:23]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 10:58:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds. [11:23]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00053472 = 10.8013 BTC [+] [11:23]
asciilifeform 'gets its time from the most recent block it accepts' is a logical impossibility given the current algo for 'accept' [11:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10050 @ 0.00054057 = 5.4327 BTC [+] [11:25]
asciilifeform << by far the most interesting thing here is that every cpp programmer needs this. and it is available from dozens of vendors, as winblowz turdware of course. because ~nobody else uses cpp~ for anything [11:25]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:17:05; mircea_popescu: << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed. [11:25]
asciilifeform << if i can't see how it made it, and repeat the process, it is useless to me [11:26]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:19:01; mircea_popescu: << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh. [11:26]
asciilifeform << perhaps i should explain. dude was an odious, moralizing twerp, who played the 'holier than thou' game for ages. ru law requires ministers to declare income. he declared perhaps 1% of it. nailed fair and square. and if there is some way for him to have made that dough other than straight bribery, monkeys will fly from my arse. [11:28]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:22:36; mircea_popescu: << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money". [11:28]
asciilifeform << precisely. what i was suggesting is to monotonically move the target 'harder'. [11:29]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:26:51; punkman: difficulty target is a number [11:29]
asciilifeform say, you get n blocks at a given target, and then the bit slides. [11:30]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52400 @ 0.00054525 = 28.5711 BTC [+] {3} [11:30]
shinohai Whelp looks like I am stuck on block 363726 [11:30]
asciilifeform << see logs. [11:30]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:51:46; shinohai: [11:30]
asciilifeform !s onerng [11:30]
assbot 11 results for 'onerng' : [11:30]
asciilifeform << i would very much like to hear why ! [11:31]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:03; mircea_popescu: << i still do not approve of the proof. [11:31]
asciilifeform << absolutely not. the most 'connected' node of the graph ought to live in the center of field of vision, and so forth [11:31]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:58; mircea_popescu: << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh. [11:31]
punkman asciilifeform: how do we do infinite growth on the mining side though? [11:32]
asciilifeform << the solution is 'don't be poor.' [11:32]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month? [11:32]
asciilifeform punkman: for what do you need the infinite growth ? [11:33]
punkman asciilifeform: monotonically increasing difficulty [11:33]
asciilifeform punkman: the solution, i now realize, is difficulty which ratchets based on actual mass of work [11:33]
asciilifeform rather than time or block count [11:33]
asciilifeform so target would move once sufficient work matches a harder target [11:34]
asciilifeform (how to make this recurse correctly is an exercise for the reader) [11:35]
asciilifeform as for why anyone would willingly move the target by solving a harder-than-required one - this ought to be obvious [11:35]
punkman so I use a lot of hashing power for 1 hour and then make you wait 1 month for next block? [11:35]
asciilifeform (miners want to fuck up other miners more than they wish to do anything else, it turns out) [11:35]
asciilifeform punkman: this works only if you are the world champion by an unreasonable margin [11:36]
asciilifeform which is why it only happens to crackpot altcoins [11:36]
asciilifeform where such 'champions' exist [11:36]
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asciilifeform my point here is that the time thing ~will~ have to be solved, because it is by far the most comically usg-dependent aspect of bitcoin [11:37]
asciilifeform network time is an extremely fragile political fiction [11:37]
decimation asciilifeform: what about waiting for a few hours to observe several blocks upon pogo boot? [11:37]
asciilifeform and to the extent bitcoind depends on it, it is broken by design. [11:38]
asciilifeform decimation: the blocks can be 'time travelers' [11:38]
asciilifeform transmitted just for the purpose of fucking with pogo [11:38]
asciilifeform must understand, time is presently a criterion in whether a block is a block [11:38]
decimation wouldn't they be rejected if 2 hours away? [11:38]
asciilifeform from what/?? [11:38]
asciilifeform we have no clock on powerup! [11:38]
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decimation yes, connect to a couple of remote nodes, wait for several blocks to verify (while keeping your own clock) [11:39]
asciilifeform say i feed your pogo the entire sequence of blocks 0,5000 with the period times. now it believes that it's 2009 ? [11:39]
asciilifeform decimation: sybils [11:39]
asciilifeform srsly [11:39]
decimation yes, but your sybil objection applies to all of bitcoin [11:39]
asciilifeform not in so far as it depends on proof of work [11:39]
asciilifeform rather than clocks [11:40]
decimation how does anyeone know they aren't being fed bullshit? [11:40]
asciilifeform because proof of work. [11:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31276 @ 0.00054622 = 17.0836 BTC [+] [11:40]
decimation precisely [11:40]
asciilifeform whereas we have no means of agreeing on the time. [11:40]
decimation do you trust your own clock on the pogo? [11:40]
asciilifeform pogo is able to keep time, in the relative sense, similar to how msdos did (periodic interrupt) [11:41]
asciilifeform but has no notion whatsoever of political time on power-up [11:41]
Adlai asciilifeform: actually, it also happens to non-crackpot altcoins (if such a thing exists), and multipools need to take care not to mine them too hard and kill their own geese [11:41]
decimation precisely. pogo starts its own stopwatch, and starts watching for blocks to verify [11:41]
shinohai <<< hmmm [11:41]
assbot Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363736 ... ( ) [11:41]
asciilifeform decimation: presently, by definition they cannot verify [11:41]
decimation over time, a chain is built which contains timestamps and relative timestamps from the pogo [11:41]
asciilifeform because clock thinks it is 1969 [11:41]
asciilifeform and so genesis block is more than 2h in the future [11:42]
decimation then the pogo can average the timestamps relative to its own samples of block times [11:42]
asciilifeform if you allow purported blocks to set your rtc, you are setting yourself up for a rewind attack [11:42]
asciilifeform if you allow it to ever move the rtc at all! [11:42]
asciilifeform please think about it [11:42]
decimation I agree but the enemy would have to know that this is a pogo vs. other bitcoin node [11:42]
decimation and the node feeding bullshit would be easily identified by a running bitcoind [11:43]
Adlai these guys have had trouble milking the udders off their cows: [11:43]
asciilifeform i can feed you easy blocks from the past and move the average wherever i want [11:43]
asciilifeform decimation: once we are in the position of trying to 'identify bullshit' we're lost in the sea. [11:43]
asciilifeform the thing is supposed to be solidly automatic. [11:43]
asciilifeform with no display, keyboard, or setup ritual [11:43]
decimation why not "reject all blocks before timestamp X" for the purpose of setting clock [11:44]
asciilifeform the point which i am trying - and apparently failing - to make, is that the bitcoin protocol as we know it requires time to be an invariant, by which blocks are judged [11:46]
asciilifeform and never the reverse [11:46]
asciilifeform i didn't design the thing [11:46]
asciilifeform but it is screamingly apparent from the design [11:46]
asciilifeform and breaking it this way is certain to have unforeseen effects [11:46]
asciilifeform (some of which i foresee quite clearly) [11:47]
asciilifeform if you set the clock based on what is happening on the bitcoin network in any way, you are then in a state of sin. [11:47]
asciilifeform (to borrow von neumann's phrase) [11:47]
decimation agreed, it is self referential [11:48]
decimation but apparently setting it with a sextant is also a terrible idea? [11:48]
asciilifeform because needs hands [11:48]
asciilifeform it has to plug into the wall and go! [11:48]
decimation right, so push button plus astronomer in your wot [11:48]
asciilifeform button that does what ? [11:48]
asciilifeform hardcoded ip ? [11:48]
decimation nope. has clock, you set [11:49]
asciilifeform like an alarm clock ? [11:49]
decimation sure why not [11:49]
asciilifeform pogo has no buttons and no displays. [11:49]
decimation well, that's a difficulty [11:49]
asciilifeform you go to war with the pogo you have, not the pogo you wish you had, to borrow a bushism [11:49]
asciilifeform i'd put an oven oscillator in there, and 50 years of lithium battery, sure [11:49]
decimation the only 'fix' in that case is a separate box that serves time, under your own control [11:49]
asciilifeform but we haven't this option. [11:49]
asciilifeform we haven't any additional hardware [11:50]
asciilifeform adding so much as a shoelace to pogo would multiply the cost. [11:50]
decimation something like this chip would keep time for a long time [11:50]
assbot DS3232 Extremely Accurate I²C RTC with Integrated Crystal and SRAM - Maxim ... ( ) [11:50]
asciilifeform there is ~no shortage~ of parts for this [11:50]
asciilifeform we just don't have the option to use any of them. [11:50]
asciilifeform so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation. [11:51]
asciilifeform incidentally, there is even an empty landing pad inside for rtc [11:51]
asciilifeform (it was designed for one!) [11:51]
asciilifeform but again, having this done would not only multiply the cost of the unit but add many times its cost in logistics to wherever this is done and then again to the destination. [11:52]
asciilifeform (...and then someone has to set the fucking clocks and wrap them back in the crate? who will it be? you? me? mircea_popescu?) [11:53]
thestringpuller i vote asciilifeform since he doesn't like leaving the house [11:54]
asciilifeform the other thing about the whole 'let's piss on the bitcoin protocol and let blockchain move the clock' thing is that it does ~NOT~ guarantee the required accuracy! [11:54]
asciilifeform drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others [11:54]
asciilifeform (depending on how the clock sync is done) [11:54]
asciilifeform this is a potentially catastrophic situation [11:54]
asciilifeform whereas if you rely on blocks, rather than nodes, you are permitting miners to induce clockdriftforks! [11:55]
asciilifeform which promises to be hilarious [11:55]
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asciilifeform try to remember that we are talking about deploying potentially thousands of these [11:56]
asciilifeform the behaviour of these boxes ~actually matters~ [11:56]
asciilifeform in that extreme dysfunction could actually frag the net [11:56]
asciilifeform in the worst case, converting them to sybils in the service of the enemy. [11:57]
asciilifeform i do not at present know of a non-retarded solution [11:57]
asciilifeform but it will have to come out of somebody's arse [11:58]
asciilifeform because the only alternative is retardation [11:58]
asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu find the time to visit 'arkakao' and load up on the highest octane sugar-bomb you can! and try to conceive of a solution to this mega-conundrum [11:59]
gribble The operation succeeded. [11:59]
asciilifeform i shall be doing the equivalent, this week [12:00]
asciilifeform because this is a truly dire problem, it cannot be waved away. [12:00]
asciilifeform i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ? [12:06]
asciilifeform letting nodes set own clocks based on what they can see on the net is rather like the train pushers. [12:06]
asciilifeform yes, they move... [12:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00054868 = 9.7116 BTC [+] [12:07]
asciilifeform for folks who are seriously working on the problem: i presently suspect that the solution will resemble some mix of 'lamport clock' and 'the firing squad problem' [12:08]
jurov so, to summarize. 1. time can't come from net because net ==== usg. 2. time can't come from any additional hw cuz cost [12:08]
asciilifeform ntp == usg [12:08]
asciilifeform bitcoin net == self-referential [12:09]
jurov the objections can be extended to any other protocol [12:09]
thestringpuller can't we just use sundials or something [12:09]
asciilifeform additional hw could be acceptable if we find somebody selling usb clocks, battery included, for a few bux [12:09]
punkman current phoundation version seems different [12:09]
assbot bitcoin/main.cpp at 9546a977d354b2ec6cd8455538e68fe4ba343a44 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( ) [12:09]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: machine with no keyboard, or display, or presumption of literate owner [12:09]
punkman I don't see local time in there [12:09]
punkman GetMedian [12:10]
assbot bitcoin/chain.h at ce56f5621a94dcc2159ebe57e43da727eab18e6c · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( ) [12:10]
jurov why going to such contortions with time before the rest of proto is secured? [12:10]
asciilifeform punkman: we already know that it is a monstrous perversion that has approximately same relation to bitcoin as american 'chocolate' does to chocolate [12:10]
asciilifeform jurov: because ~we don't have a workable scheme~ for pogo [12:11]
asciilifeform presently [12:11]
jurov i'm fine with ntp [12:11]
asciilifeform i firmly believe that all of the answers proposed so far are disastrously bad [12:11]
asciilifeform ntp has serious problems even aside from the central control [12:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37250 @ 0.00055025 = 20.4968 BTC [+] {2} [12:11]
asciilifeform as a protocol [12:11]
jurov and when there's whispernet, it can do time, too [12:11]
asciilifeform hell, n00bz to this channel get ddosed with what else if not a thousand ntp boxes ! [12:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28573 @ 0.00055872 = 15.9643 BTC [+] {2} [12:12]
asciilifeform jurov: i personally am not very interested in building a weapon of war which enemy can turn off, collectively, by flipping a switch [12:13]
jurov oh i forgot to add to summary 3. no maintenance [12:13]
asciilifeform jurov: unless i am mistaken, the plan was to deploy these to the homes of cooperating civilians [12:14]
asciilifeform for 100% unattended operation [12:14]
jurov if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution [12:14]
asciilifeform don't have known addresses [12:14]
asciilifeform or ddos mechanisms which preferentially affect pogo. [12:14]
asciilifeform 'don't be poor' [12:14]
asciilifeform we know the basic shape of the answer, just not the particulars. [12:15]
jurov and how'd pogos masquerade? scanning and identifying btc nodes is easy [12:16]
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asciilifeform who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ? [12:16]
punkman usg? [12:16]
asciilifeform the 'ddos' i'm concerned with is more that we are setting up a box with unique vulnerabilities [12:16]
jurov if it's 5000 residential lines, then it's easy [12:16]
jurov the civilians or their isps will stopp cooperate very quickly [12:17]
asciilifeform jurov: if they're 5000 residential lines in usa, just send the gasenwagen, aha [12:17]
asciilifeform this is not a mechanical problem, yes [12:17]
asciilifeform i am concerned with 'pogos will fall like dominoes from simple and cheap nudge' rather than 'in the dark future where being a known bitcoin user merits gassing' [12:17]
jurov so, ntp is the least worry atm [12:18]
asciilifeform (the latter is an entirely separate conversation) [12:18]
asciilifeform ntp means that you now have a multimegabyte leprous turd on your box. [12:18]
asciilifeform and that the thing can be taken out of commission entirely by the cheapest mitm. [12:19]
jurov btw, just today i got an offer for "small business" connection, it included ToS [12:19]
asciilifeform jurov: neato [12:19]
jurov guess what did it say? listed allowed server services [12:19]
jurov obv. no p2p there [12:19]
punkman asciilifeform: don't even need mitm, dozens of DoS vectors in there [12:20]
asciilifeform jurov: residential ? [12:20]
jurov and "must not disturb other users" [12:20]
asciilifeform jurov: classic chumpatron. exists on this side of the atlantic, too [12:20]
punkman reading the code is quite discouraging [12:20]
asciilifeform 'pay double for your residential line! because you are a moron and want to show it off!' [12:20]
asciilifeform 'get nothing in return but the word 'business' !!' [12:20]
jurov and where are these mythincal civilian nonresidential lines pogo is supposed to be on? [12:21]
asciilifeform jurov: plenty of folks lease office space. or have a non-retarded isp. etc [12:21]
jurov lol, having your employer ddoes, yet better! [12:22]
asciilifeform i've been running public node at home for years, in the heart of mordor [12:22]
asciilifeform never had problem. [12:22]
jurov so, stfu about ddosing then [12:22]
shinohai I just pay for business class internet so no one bothers me about my activities [12:22]
asciilifeform jurov: again, i was speaking of ddos in the sense of 'if it is trivial to take out pogo with a nudge that no one else will notice, it will be done' [12:23]
asciilifeform rather than the classical 'ocean of shit down your pipe' sense [12:23]
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jurov but ntp flood is ocean of shit [12:23]
asciilifeform shinohai: jurov just described a 'business class' that ~will bother~ [12:23]
asciilifeform jurov: flood is not the only known past ntp vuln [12:23]
shinohai T_T [12:24]
asciilifeform what'll folks propose to put on this poor box next? 'samba' ? [12:24]
jurov ah, so you suppose someone has ntp 0day in store for us [12:24]
asciilifeform familiar with term 'attack surface' ? [12:24]
jurov as opposed to "simple as possible, but no simpler"? [12:25]
jurov ntp is simple enough in this situation [12:26]
asciilifeform what is the shortest known implementation ? [12:26]
asciilifeform as in, one that jurov would be willing to read & sign [12:26]
asciilifeform must also work on uclibc and, possibly, musl [12:26]
asciilifeform and work without invoking dns [12:26]
* asciilifeform bbl [12:28]
jurov [12:29]
assbot c - How to write a NTP client? - Stack Overflow ... ( ) [12:29]
thestringpuller so there is no way they can increase the block size [12:30]
thestringpuller my internet is drained right now relaying blocks, I had to shut my node off [12:30]
thestringpuller so i can stream music from my library. these people don't know what they're talking about. [12:30]
jurov heh. if you had a pogo, you'd just yank it from power [12:31]
jurov i don't see where to find 5000 ppl that would tolerate such bw hog [12:32]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38900 @ 0.00056188 = 21.8571 BTC [+] {2} [12:33]
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thestringpuller jurov: if i had a pogo i would connect it to the neighbors unsecured wifi XD [12:34]
punkman from 0.5.3 source "/// when NTP implemented, change to just nTime = GetAdjustedTime()" [12:35]
punkman :P [12:35]
jurov thestringpuller wih $10 wifi nic you can route bitcoind there right now, no? [12:36]
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decimation I don't get it, why do we need to run the ntp daemon to use ntp? [12:39]
decimation just use ntpdate to set the clock once and be done [12:39]
decimation will work for a year or two [12:39]
decimation 'civilian' chumper's electricity is probably not more reliable than that anyway [12:40]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40400 @ 0.00055182 = 22.2935 BTC [-] [12:41]
decimation and the 'attack surface' consists of a few packets asking for the time [12:41]
thestringpuller jurov: yea and assuming the neighbor's wifi is setup to allow incoming connections to 8333 [12:42]
thestringpuller but the main issue is that my upstream limitations are greater restricted than downstream, so when I relay blocks and tx data esp. when mempool is getting big, it chokes me from doing anything remote (like ssh is even slow) [12:43]
jurov if you had sane router like dd-wrt or mikrotik [12:43]
jurov you could set ougoing traffic shaper [12:44]
mike_c omg - this better not turn out like the robot ping pong match: [12:44]
assbot Giant robots set to fight after U.S. company issues video challenge to Japanese rival | CTV News ... ( ) [12:44]
punkman I can barely do 20-30kbps up without router getting constipated, at least when seeding torrents [12:44]
thestringpuller punkman: jurov i can do up to 600kbps on torrents without seeing constipation [12:45]
thestringpuller but bitcoind is demanding like 1mbps [12:45]
thestringpuller which is like the upward limits set by the ISP [12:46]
jurov the idea is, if you limit the uplink yourself before isp does, you can set priority for misc traffic [12:47]
thestringpuller yea. torrent clients (rtorrent) let you limit from within the client [12:47]
thestringpuller i don't understand why I should have to set iptable rules [12:48]
jurov because bitcoind does not know how to limit itself [12:49]
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jurov in companies where i did sysadmin, outgoing email was prone to slow everything to crawl with ADSL, and obv setting limits on everyone's email clients was impractical [12:50]
jurov after shaping and setting priorities all went fine [12:50]
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decimation at the cost of slowing email delivery [12:52]
decimation 'plox to make email faster' [12:52]
jurov haha yes. but most of the time it just throttled it from gobbling full 768k down to 600k, not very noticeable [12:54]
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shinohai <<< ASSet of the day. [13:13]
assbot ... ( ) [13:13]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82100 @ 0.00055428 = 45.5064 BTC [+] {3} [13:15]
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mats [13:24]
assbot I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me - Vox ... ( ) [13:24]
mats loled [13:24]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.00054838 = 3.6741 BTC [-] [13:40]
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pete_dushenski "The real problem: a simplistic, unworkable, and ultimately stifling conception of social justice" << sounds about right. [13:45]
lobbes "So it's not just that students refuse to countenance uncomfortable ideas — they refuse to engage them, period. Engagement is considered unnecessary, as the immediate, emotional reactions of students contain all the analysis and judgment that sensitive issues demand." << ayup [13:46]
pete_dushenski "All the old, enlightened means of discussion and analysis —from due process to scientific method — are dismissed as being blind to emotional concerns and therefore unfairly skewed toward the interest of straight white males" << moar gold. [13:46]
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punkman "I have intentionally adjusted my teaching materials as the political winds have shifted." "While I used to pride myself on getting students to question themselves and engage with difficult concepts and texts, I now hesitate. What if this hurts my evaluations and I don't get tenure?" [13:54]
punkman yeah what if you don't get tenure [13:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7856 @ 0.00056463 = 4.4357 BTC [+] [14:00]
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trinque << previous thread [14:12]
assbot Logged on 03-06-2015 17:58:37; ben_vulpes: (unrelated: [14:12]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00056659 = 19.6607 BTC [+] {2} [14:20]
trinque punkman | does 0.0001 still get you in next block? << this is what deedbot- pays [14:29]
trinque asciilifeform: I got clang to fart out a graphviz dot file; so far, every tool that can eat the thing results in a horrid ball of yarn [14:33]
trinque noticed that many of the tools there are more or less the same java program [14:33]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [14:34]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [14:34]
trinque I'm not even going to share the result; just take a pen and go nuts on a piece of paper and you'll have it [14:34]
ascii_field trinque: the 'dot' file, does it contain something like a logical flow graph ? [14:35]
ascii_field in whatever format [14:35]
trinque yeah it's a directed graph; however, clang also barfed lots of unnamed nodes [14:36]
trinque Node0xd2ace8391f0 [14:36]
trinque so on [14:36]
ascii_field then useless [14:36]
trinque yep [14:36]
ascii_field this is so infuriatingly basic [14:36]
ascii_field just want a matrix of what calls what [14:36]
shinohai [14:36]
assbot Page not found · GitHub ... ( ) [14:37]
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trinque I cannot see how this tool does not exist [14:37]
shinohai bleh: [14:37]
trinque except that C++ itself foils any attempt [14:37]
assbot zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( ) [14:37]
ascii_field shinohai: see log [14:37]
trinque !s [14:37]
assbot Need a search term. [14:37]
trinque !s snow [14:37]
assbot 173 results for 'snow' : [14:37]
trinque [14:37]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:49; decimation: asciilifeform: < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list [14:37]
ascii_field shinohai,: [14:37]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:54; asciilifeform: mats: what is interesting about it ? [14:38]
shinohai Hmm missed that. Interesting concept [14:38]
ascii_field nah [14:38]
ascii_field same crud as 'tor' [14:39]
ascii_field for same reason. [14:39]
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ascii_field faux p2p [14:39]
trinque ascii_field: did you see the awesome glsa on icu yesterday? [14:41]
trinque [14:41]
assbot Gentoo Security ... ( ) [14:41]
trinque notable packages linked against icu on my box include.... firefox [14:42]
ascii_field aha [14:42]
trinque lol and chrome has it too [14:42]
jurov trinque deedbot now has only enough for 27 blocks? [14:42]
trinque jurov: enough of a balance? [14:43]
jurov yes [14:43]
trinque there are a few other unspent outputs [14:43]
trinque it will switch to the next [14:43]
jurov oh i see [14:43]
trinque and if it gets low, feel free to throw some bitdust in the tank [14:44]
trinque should be good for a while though [14:44]
trinque I see 0.1028202 BTC [14:45]
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trinque now that the de-dockerization is complete, I may have it announce its current balance along with newly uploaded deeds [14:46]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00056737 = 12.8793 BTC [+] {2} [14:50]
ascii_field trinque: and guess what, rebuilding all the deps of that thing would take a month+ on my box [14:50]
ascii_field and that's ~after~ resolving the circular dependencies [14:51]
trinque I will never mock stallman emailing himself static html ever again. [14:52]
trinque I've half considered trying to stop using the web so much, aside from maybe syncing certain sites to a local box. [14:52]
trinque it's clearly *all* irreparably fucked. [14:53]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7400 @ 0.00056658 = 4.1927 BTC [-] [14:56]
ascii_field .... and how much shitgnomism is rolled into the 'updated' version of 10,001 proggies that will install. [14:57]
trinque nowhere clearer than the recent 1m+ lines-changed linux release [15:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58600 @ 0.00056872 = 33.327 BTC [+] {3} [15:02]
ascii_field at this point, any unixlike box with a graphical display may as well be running winblowz [15:03]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [15:04]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00056891 = 9.4439 BTC [+] {2} [15:10]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [15:14]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [15:14]
ascii_field everyone who ever made fun of rms deserves to be fed a litre of 'toe jam' now. [15:14]
ascii_field and every day. [15:14]
mircea_popescu ascii_field i know i'm fed up with random shit depending on random shit, but it's not mere stupidity. it's just them trying to make sure shit permeates everywhere. [15:16]
mircea_popescu oh, openssl put out a bug ? best make sure the fucking calculator pulls it in. [15:16]
ascii_field aha [15:16]
punkman [15:16]
ascii_field elementary. [15:16]
assbot Drone fires burgers at the homeless in charity viral video gone wrong - Americas - World - The Independent [15:16]
mircea_popescu anyway, re the switch : let's talk it through. [15:16]
* ascii_field stands up ears [15:17]
mircea_popescu so, when you start the pogo, you provide it with the human touch, divine spark, politica time. [15:17]
mircea_popescu this, you have to do. like it or not we dunno how to abstract it away. [15:17]
mircea_popescu from there on, iut carries on by simply syncing its clock to last accepted block. [15:17]
ascii_field howabout at 4am on a sunday when the mains flickers ? [15:17]
mircea_popescu yes this opens it up to attack, but [15:17]
mircea_popescu you take it down and start it over with new magic touch [15:17]
* CryptoGoon is now known as GoonClooney [15:17]
ascii_field congrats, now pogo behaves like the clock on my stove [15:17]
mircea_popescu inconvenience is not a controlling point here. [15:17]
mircea_popescu it does yes. [15:17]
ascii_field except with no display ! [15:18]
mircea_popescu what can we do ? [15:18]
ascii_field what, i'm to poll it ? [15:18]
mircea_popescu its principal function ius being polled anyway [15:18]
ascii_field now it is no longer a civilian box [15:18]
mircea_popescu i am sorry you can't have candy kalash. [15:18]
ascii_field whole point was 'here let me fuck you and plug this box into your router' [15:18]
ascii_field not 'learn to maintain this steam engine' [15:19]
mircea_popescu it is held together by the superficial tension of frog entails. [15:19]
mircea_popescu nevertyheless, that is a marked improvement over the current situation [15:19]
mircea_popescu held together by the superficial tension of hemorhagic diarhea [15:19]
ascii_field i am not sure how this improves on anything [15:19]
mircea_popescu illustrate an attack for my benefit. [15:19]
danielpbarron isn't there supposed to be a way to send commands to the pogo? otherwise how is it useful to me as a "full node" if I can't query it for blocks/transactions and relay new ones I have created for it? [15:20]
ascii_field with the scheme described, you don't even need an attack [15:20]
ascii_field they never get off the ground at all [15:20]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron query yes, order notrly. [15:20]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00055975 = 12.4265 BTC [-] {2} [15:20]
mircea_popescu ascii_field is the things' processor freq known ? [15:21]
ascii_field the idea, as i understood it, was to let folks set up nodes without human committment [15:21]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: yes, though i've forgotten the exact number. 500MHz i think it was. [15:21]
mircea_popescu this obviously can be measured [15:21]
ascii_field it keeps time fine! [15:21]
ascii_field i said this [15:21]
mircea_popescu i mean, by siomething running on the box in question [15:21]
ascii_field just not when powered down! [15:21]
ascii_field but keeps perfect interrupt-based clock when running [15:21]
ascii_field at least as good as pc [15:21]
ascii_field this doesn't need any magic, it works on trad kernel [15:22]
ascii_field right now. [15:22]
mircea_popescu and you don't like having to start it by manual command because myeah. [15:22]
ascii_field because these are to be given to folks who will not volunteer any meat commitment [15:22]
ascii_field but will agree to plug in box [15:22]
ascii_field or so was my understanding [15:22]
mircea_popescu myeah. [15:23]
mircea_popescu and setting the time to "timestamp of the last block it actually has on disk" is going to what ? [15:23]
ascii_field see today's thread [15:23]
ascii_field plz [15:23]
mircea_popescu i have. but tell me again. [15:24]
ascii_field for one thing, there may not be any blocks on disk [15:24]
mircea_popescu repetition is not always a sin. [15:24]
ascii_field for another, it could be days, weeks, months old [15:24]
mircea_popescu but the next block it gets wouldn't be more than two hours off. [15:24]
mircea_popescu even if it is months old. [15:24]
ascii_field wat???? [15:24]
ascii_field it'll be 2 hrs delta to the last known! [15:24]
mircea_popescu if last block it has is x, 5 weeks old [15:24]
ascii_field this is elementary [15:24]
mircea_popescu block x+1 will not be current [15:24]
ascii_field it will be 'from the future' [15:24]
mircea_popescu it will be 5 weeks old +- 10 minutes [15:25]
ascii_field because machine thinks it is '69 [15:25]
mircea_popescu mno [15:25]
mircea_popescu ah if nothing on disk yes. [15:25]
mircea_popescu but we were discussing "block on disk is 5 weeks old" [15:25]
ascii_field and if something on disk, then perhaps it is 2009 [15:25]
mircea_popescu so ? [15:25]
ascii_field from the cpu's pov [15:25]
ascii_field and any incoming block is invalid, because 'from the future' [15:25]
mircea_popescu the next block to wahtever it has on disk is not going to be too much from the future. [15:25]
mircea_popescu no. [15:25]
ascii_field >2h --> too far [15:25]
ascii_field according to the traditional bitcoin protocol. [15:25]
mircea_popescu again : if you have block x, from a year ago, when you get block x+1, the styamp on block x+1 will be, 1year ago + 10 minutes [15:25]
ascii_field realize, time is specified as an invariant [15:25]
mircea_popescu exactly. [15:26]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: if we lack a clock, we are wide open to replay attack [15:26]
mircea_popescu illustrate. [15:26]
ascii_field because the box has no idea what year it actually is [15:26]
ascii_field much less what time [15:26]
ascii_field even if you weasel out of this one by hardcoding block hashes, etc [15:26]
mircea_popescu just build an example wouldja. [15:27]
ascii_field you are still open to crafted, induced clock drift [15:27]
ascii_field fine, example. malicious miner starts crapping out blocks with timestamp more and more off in the future [15:27]
ascii_field little by little, 5000 pogos slide with it [15:27]
ascii_field eventually fork. [15:27]
mircea_popescu wait a second. [15:27]
mircea_popescu what % hash does this miner have ? [15:27]
ascii_field not a proper fork [15:27]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4454 @ 0.0005699 = 2.5383 BTC [+] [15:27]
ascii_field but a network split [15:28]
ascii_field where pogo fleet is now own parallel universe [15:28]
* gernika (~gernika@unaffiliated/gernika) has joined #bitcoin-assets [15:28]
mircea_popescu this is a horribru example. so, miner has 10% of the hash, 10% of the bnlocks are badly timed. what of it, pogo resets on the remainder. [15:28]
mircea_popescu this isn't an attack. [15:28]
ascii_field resets ? [15:28]
ascii_field why ? [15:28]
mircea_popescu because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 with a right time, pogo is now on block 6. [15:29]
ascii_field all it sees is 'block was broadcast, has timestamp t, average it now' [15:29]
ascii_field there is no 'bad time', normally there is 2hrs of 'play' in the gears [15:29]
mircea_popescu no average. set clock = timestamp of last block [15:29]
ascii_field all the malicious miner needs to do is keep nudging withing the allowed bounds [15:29]
mircea_popescu you've not yet constructed a credible example. [15:29]
ascii_field let's suppose a powered-up pogo sets clock using first block it sees [15:30]
ascii_field what if said block is a 'martian' block ? [15:30]
mircea_popescu last it sees on disk. [15:30]
mircea_popescu not first block it sees. [15:30]
ascii_field clean disk! [15:30]
mircea_popescu forget that for a moment. [15:30]
mircea_popescu let's consider the not clean disk situation [15:30]
ascii_field how did the disk become not empty ? [15:30]
ascii_field dropped by god ? [15:30]
mircea_popescu can you forget that for a moment ? [15:30]
ascii_field ok... [15:30]
mircea_popescu suppose it's not empty. so, pogo thinks time = last block on disk [15:31]
mircea_popescu once it accepts a further block, it resets its clock too. [15:31]
jurov because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 << and it will get dropped because pogo considers delta from 5 invalid [15:31]
mircea_popescu now, this theoretically is vulnerable. but practically, can you construct the attack for me ? [15:31]
ascii_field ^^^^ [15:31]
ascii_field ok: [15:31]
mircea_popescu jurov 5 couldn't have been that far off and be accepted from 4. [15:31]
jurov whuy not? [15:31]
ascii_field next block is from hitler. it has timestamp of... yesterday. [15:31]
mircea_popescu it gets rejected [15:32]
mircea_popescu can't be next block. hitler lost. [15:32]
ascii_field then genuine block appears. it now appears to be 'from the future' [15:32]
ascii_field is rejected. [15:32]
mircea_popescu nope. [15:32]
mircea_popescu hitler's block was already rejected. [15:32]
ascii_field why? [15:32]
mircea_popescu because it was from yesterday. [15:32]
ascii_field how does node know this? [15:32]
ascii_field how old is the chain on disk [15:32]
mircea_popescu because when hitler block shows up, the disk has a block it ends with [15:32]
mircea_popescu doesn't matter how old that block is. the block coming after it will be ~10 minutes later. [15:33]
ascii_field in order for it to be rejected. the chain on disk will have to be no more than a day behind [15:33]
mircea_popescu not so. [15:33]
ascii_field ok, say chain is a week out of date [15:33]
mircea_popescu lemme model this maybe i'm saying it stupidly. [15:33]
ascii_field on what basis is hitler's block rejected ? [15:33]
mircea_popescu so, pogo has on disk last block 5, bvlock timestamp 1000 [15:33]
ascii_field the cpu clock is currently 1969 midnight [15:33]
mircea_popescu at real timestamp 5000 pogo starts [15:33]
mircea_popescu it receives block 6, with timestamp 1010. accepts it. [15:33]
mircea_popescu it receives alt block 6, timestamp 990. it rejects it [15:34]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: i can see where you're going. but it still can be sunk [15:34]
mircea_popescu to answer your q : hitler's block is rejected on the basis that it's too far off from the last block pogo accepted. [15:34]
mircea_popescu well, i suppose maybe it can, but show it to me ? [15:35]
ascii_field hitler uses his week while your node was in the crate to re-mine the blocks from the last place you have on disk, with minimal plausible monotonically stepping time deltas [15:35]
ascii_field you are now four hours, say, behind the actual earth time [15:35]
mircea_popescu ok. but the expense of this is staggering. [15:35]
ascii_field next block appears to be from the future [15:35]
mircea_popescu yes. the only way this attack would work is with a major chain replacement investment. [15:35]
ascii_field only staggering if all he has is a week [15:36]
mircea_popescu i daresay this is within engineering tolerance. [15:36]
ascii_field if he has a year ? [15:36]
mircea_popescu even if he has a year [15:36]
mircea_popescu in a year he has to replace a million btc worth of blocks. [15:36]
ascii_field hitler is only half of the problem here [15:36]
mircea_popescu go on. [15:36]
ascii_field other half is natural drift [15:36]
mircea_popescu natural drift is a problem, yes, but you reset on each block. [15:36]
ascii_field [15:36]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 15:02:31; asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ? [15:36]
mircea_popescu it is a form of dead reckoning, yes. so bad in principle. [15:37]
mircea_popescu in practice, it's mediated [15:37]
ascii_field so now miners get to move pogo clocks around collectively. [15:37]
mircea_popescu ie, exactly like drummers (if you think about it, drummers are EXACTLY each guy pushing the other, sound has a speed, and it pushes ears) [15:37]
ascii_field as if miners were not enough of an evil [15:37]
mircea_popescu they are not an evil you may divorce. [15:37]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: the speed of the sound of the drum is negligible in comparison to the speed at which push wave propagates through a crowd [15:38]
mircea_popescu exactly what im saying here. [15:38]
ascii_field unless the crowd is in a gasenwagen and behaves like a solid [15:38]
mircea_popescu natural drift and alt-chain attacks have a cost. [15:38]
ascii_field delay is negligible, rather [15:38]
ascii_field not speed [15:38]
ascii_field lol [15:38]
mircea_popescu just pointing out that drums were good enough for marching and not good enough for precision bomb strike [15:39]
mircea_popescu just so here. [15:39]
jurov how is the timing attack different from normal orphans? [15:39]
mircea_popescu orphans are judged on sheer blockchain length [15:40]
ascii_field jurov: mainly in that it affects pogos and nobody else [15:40]
jurov pogo will eventually reorganize, and reset the time back to where the for started [15:40]
jurov *fork [15:40]
mircea_popescu ascii_field anyway, mind that pogos are not intended to be THE ONLY solution to relaying. they are just supposed to be a type of solution. [15:40]
mircea_popescu so yes, the rifle regiment wouldn't survive cavalry charge from the side. alrighty then, put them on a hillltop. [15:40]
ascii_field thing is, i can easily see these becoming 99% of the relay mass [15:41]
mircea_popescu maybe. [15:41]
mircea_popescu it's not that i don't appreciate your intellectual purity. it's merely that things must be made as correct as possible and no correcter than that. [15:42]
ascii_field this terrible kludge would probably go well with jurov's [15:42]
ascii_field alone, either is nightmarish [15:42]
ascii_field but together they sorta cancel out [15:43]
mircea_popescu the only correct solution to the problems of humanity is killing all the people. [15:43]
mircea_popescu we really want to stop somewhere short of this. [15:43]
mircea_popescu anyway, not that i'm saying this must be done or anything. but i do not think it'd be the end of the world if it has to be. [15:43]
ascii_field so far there appear to be just these two solutions [15:44]
ascii_field no one else has proposed anything like a third [15:44]
mircea_popescu yes, but you didn't care much for it. usb timer dongle thinger [15:44]
ascii_field (anything requiring the pogo keeper to have hands and brain is not a solution) [15:44]
mircea_popescu it has the major problem of costing more money. [15:44]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: may as well ship a pc then! [15:44]
mircea_popescu quite. [15:44]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [15:45]
mircea_popescu it is not your fault, or mine, or his, that "the time" does not come engraved in the wave fucntion you know. [15:45]
mircea_popescu !up ascii_field [15:45]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_field for 30 minutes. [15:45]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [15:45]
mircea_popescu the time is nonsense in the first place. [15:45]
ascii_field that this was a constraint, i warned from day 1 [15:45]
ascii_field and i still think that dependence on political time is a serious flaw in bitcoin proper [15:45]
jurov also there is my doubt of finding 5000 or how many ppl that won't mind pogo trampling upon their connection and likely inviting attacks [15:46]
mircea_popescu ok, how about this alternative : put a special time server on the pogo itself, have the pogo sync its time from the list of approved upstream sources. [15:46]
mircea_popescu (same list as it takes blocks from) [15:46]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: you realize that is exactly how the ntp nodes with which we're ddosed work [15:46]
mircea_popescu yes i realise. but at least these are our evil nodes rather than obama's evil nodes. [15:47]
mircea_popescu look, there's only so many corners to a square box. [15:47]
ascii_field so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp. [15:47]
mircea_popescu i blame you. [15:47]
ascii_field i blame retardatoshi [15:47]
mircea_popescu anyway. the problem of time (as you rightly observe) is a larger problem than anything bitcoin solves [15:48]
mircea_popescu thus, can't really blame it for the situation. [15:48]
ascii_field bitcoin did not have to depend on it [15:48]
mircea_popescu yes, it did. [15:48]
ascii_field what's wrong with monotonic retargeting ? [15:48]
mircea_popescu didja miss the line where i said you can't have a statistical sample of one ? [15:49]
ascii_field no need for sample [15:49]
mircea_popescu there is no way to distinguish between a block mined at difficulty x that came out with 9 leading zeroes and a block mined at difficulty 1 that came out randomly with that many zeroes. [15:49]
ascii_field say, anyone who can hash faster than strictly required to win the race, ends up pushing the target towards hardness [15:49]
mircea_popescu this dies. [15:49]
ascii_field hm? [15:49]
* ag3nt_zer0 (328f93cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #bitcoin-assets [15:50]
mircea_popescu this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over. [15:50]
mircea_popescu can't replicate your luck. [15:50]
ascii_field for so long as the 'lucky strikes' can't nudge too far [15:50]
ascii_field it lives [15:50]
ascii_field no? [15:50]
mircea_popescu wrong you are [15:50]
mircea_popescu luck can come out any way it pleases. [15:50]
ascii_field would be interesting to model this [15:50]
mircea_popescu go right ahead. [15:50]
ascii_field it is rather reminiscent of 'there is nonzero chance for you to fall through the floor' [15:50]
mircea_popescu the chance to die approaches infinity much before you even get a third halving [15:50]
mircea_popescu you're basically proposing we do a "your rent is a tenth of your income or more, forever. and you play the lottery daily." [15:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19998 @ 0.0005699 = 11.3969 BTC [+] [15:51]
mircea_popescu what do you do two weeks after you won the lottery ? [15:51]
mircea_popescu win it again ? with what money ? [15:51]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: you've described... farming! [15:52]
mircea_popescu so i have. [15:52]
ascii_field gotta eat every day [15:52]
mircea_popescu farming, you will notice, died out. [15:52]
ascii_field crop can die, if it wants [15:52]
mircea_popescu moreover, this retarded version of farming is more like, "Farming done by bacteria colony. doubles every time there's food." [15:52]
mircea_popescu ie, african farming. [15:52]
ascii_field the 'double' thing is negotiable, potentially [15:53]
ascii_field recall, we are thinking of all possible formulations [15:53]
mircea_popescu not so negotiable. anyway, you DO need the sampling, and that fucks it all up [15:53]
ascii_field not merely the one we use now [15:53]
mircea_popescu even so. [15:53]
mircea_popescu do not let me stand in between you and greatness. but until the day you shit out that magic, it's no magic time. [15:53]
ascii_field not that i seriously disagree with mircea_popescu's intuition, but it is not obviously clear to me that we're speaking of a perpetuum mobile [15:54]
ascii_field perhaps i will need more ice cream to work through this one [15:54]
mircea_popescu which is why i say. [15:54]
mircea_popescu go, find. [15:54]
ascii_field i agree, this is very much a 'go, find' rather than 'sure to be found' [15:55]
ascii_field let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find. [15:55]
ascii_field then? [15:55]
mircea_popescu back at sad farm, there's really little we can do with the bitcoin as it is, other than acquiesce to the filth of human notions of time. [15:55]
mircea_popescu then maybe it's time for ada. [15:55]
ascii_field incidentally, the answer, if it exists to be found, probably involves what fuller might've labeled 'tensegrity' [15:57]
mircea_popescu i am maybe not the first but definitely not the last to admit when satoshi did the dumb. nevertheless, here he did no such thing. there is no alternative known to literature, and you can't fault a man for not coming up with a novel star. [15:57]
ascii_field where there is a 'tug of war' among top contenders for pulling difficulty up [15:57]
ascii_field and nobody can get too lucky [15:57]
mircea_popescu that centralizes [15:57]
mircea_popescu because it is game theoretically advantageous to have a central scheduler. [15:57]
ascii_field gotta have the prisoner's dilemma come out against it [15:58]
ascii_field that is, for defection to be +ev [15:58]
mircea_popescu not that bitcoin doesn't centralize, a little. but this is criminal. [15:58]
mircea_popescu not sure that can be arranged. prolly can be made to appear it was arranged, but... [15:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30009 @ 0.00057011 = 17.1084 BTC [+] {2} [15:58]
ascii_field could one design a system where fucking the lizards is always +ev ? [15:58]
mircea_popescu no. [15:58]
mircea_popescu this is necessarily the case, if you think about it. [15:58]
ascii_field not lizard unless untouchable ? [15:59]
mircea_popescu depends how you define it, but there's also the problem of "you're the lizard, bob." [15:59]
mircea_popescu you know, when the holy paladin marches into the forest to kill the unseen devils that have been upsetting the natural order of the land [15:59]
mircea_popescu oinly to discover that indeed such devils do exist. him. [15:59]
ascii_field methinks we're at the point here where one could actually build a mathematical thing [16:00]
ascii_field and play with the knobs [16:00]
mircea_popescu i think it's prolly premature [16:00]
mircea_popescu but i think we eventually will. [16:00]
ascii_field another suggestion: vectorize the difficulty [16:02]
ascii_field (presently, it is a scalar; but doesn't have to be) [16:02]
mircea_popescu you are aware of the complexity that introduces in say an attempt at mathematical provability re the entire shenanigan ? [16:03]
ascii_field [16:03]
assbot ... ( ) [16:03]
ascii_field ^ anyone ~not~ know this folktale ? [16:03]
mircea_popescu "racul, broasca si o stiuca" [16:03]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: actually it may very well be formalizable game-theoretically [16:03]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: yes!! [16:04]
mircea_popescu << there you go, ~ROMANIAN~ oldies. [16:04]
assbot Semnal M - Racul, broasca si o stiuca [Romanian Oldies] - YouTube ... ( ) [16:04]
* ascii_field wonders if it was originally a ro tale [16:04]
ascii_field or hell knows, visigoth [16:04]
mircea_popescu i think it was eastern european folklore [16:04]
mircea_popescu prolly yidish [16:04]
ascii_field has the flavour, yes [16:05]
mircea_popescu anyway, took down (as folklore) by one alexandru donici in the 1800s [16:05]
ascii_field proof of work as hilbert space... [16:07]
mircea_popescu you know the recourse to complexity is an academic habit. [16:07]
ascii_field not complexity ! [16:07]
ascii_field what we have now - ~that~ is complexity. just unexamined kind. [16:07]
mircea_popescu also true. [16:07]
ascii_field when you ~actually~ (vs. academitard-pretend) nail something down - that is a reduction in complexity. [16:08]
mircea_popescu but you've not nailed something down. you just hope saint hilbert may. [16:08]
ascii_field can't promise this 'before next tuesday' [16:08]
ascii_field but the possibility is there [16:08]
mircea_popescu all sorts of possibilities are here, provided you don't go into geographical details [16:08]
ascii_field yes, possibly i triggered somebody's allergy by mentioning a maths dude [16:08]
mircea_popescu no, we're friends with hilbert, and i don't think it's a bad idea, either. [16:09]
mircea_popescu nevertheless... [16:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00057071 = 10.9576 BTC [+] [16:09]
punkman mircea_popescu: this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over. << this is incorrect. you don't infer the target from the hash. 256bit target is included in all block headers. [16:10]
mircea_popescu punkman he wants to infer the target from the hash. [16:10]
ascii_field punkman: we were contemplating a hypothetical clockless blockchain [16:11]
ascii_field where miners slowly make life harder for themselves [16:11]
ascii_field but not too slowly, and not too quickly [16:11]
punkman you could very easily have monotonically increasing target [16:11]
ascii_field and - somehow - can't collude [16:11]
mircea_popescu basically he could be in government : he's decided to externalise the cost he can't bore [16:11]
ascii_field punkman: no good, as pointed out earlier, because finite planet [16:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25708 @ 0.00055537 = 14.2775 BTC [-] {2} [16:11]
mircea_popescu and he's picked the dumbest link to do it to [16:11]
mircea_popescu wash dc is washing on you alfie. [16:11]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: right now we have usg clock! [16:11]
* DreadKnight (~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight) has joined #bitcoin-assets [16:12]
ascii_field what could possibly be worse [16:12]
punkman ascii_field: well yeah that was my objection, need to be able to adjust downward [16:12]
mircea_popescu chinese miners. [16:12]
mircea_popescu you remember ? locusts ? [16:12]
* ascii_field feels like he took that potion from lem's 'futurological congress', which makes one realize that he had no robot servants, just leprous wretches dressed in gabage cans clanking around as 'robots' [16:13]
ascii_field and they aren't sweeping the house, but shitting on the carpet [16:13]
mircea_popescu shweeping. [16:13]
ascii_field aha. [16:13]
jurov actually, we have an usg internet, too [16:14]
mircea_popescu the only new thing in the world is the history you didn't know, and the only thing that's worse than what we have today [16:14]
mircea_popescu is what comes tomorrow. [16:14]
decimation I didn't realize that usg owns time now too [16:14]
ascii_field jurov: it is at least theoretically possible to build a non-usg network [16:14]
decimation can't someone in china look at the sky? [16:14]
mircea_popescu decimation the human idea of time, yes. [16:14]
ascii_field but the mystery of building a non-usg and non-usg-pushable political clock remains, afaik, a mystery [16:15]
decimation don't need cesium to keep time to 2hr window [16:15]
mircea_popescu you don't appreciate the depth of this problem [16:15]
ascii_field ^ [16:15]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [16:15]
mircea_popescu think of time as capital, and think you're that anon president that opposed hamilton [16:15]
mircea_popescu and think "hey, my clock can keep time within two hours, how would those newfangled financial traders and hedge funds render me destitute on the cointinent my fathers conquered ?!?!?!" [16:16]
decimation adams? [16:16]
mircea_popescu mno. [16:16]
mircea_popescu jefferson. [16:16]
jurov "imperial time" [16:16]
jurov gotta revert to julian calendar? [16:17]
mircea_popescu precision is the problem [16:17]
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decimation umm, okay [16:17]
mircea_popescu unless you discover a more precise clock, and keep it from the enemy, such that you can exploit his misclicks and take his women [16:17]
mircea_popescu you ain't got nottin. [16:17]
decimation well, if you only used the sun and the rotation of the earth, you would be ~60 seconds of utc (starting around 1960) [16:17]
mircea_popescu it is not coincidental that "finance" reduced to hft. [16:17]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [16:18]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [16:18]
ascii_field << obligatory [16:18]
assbot Synchronization in a Distributed System | 8th Light ... ( ) [16:18]
ascii_field ^ state of the art for p2p ~ordering of events~ - rather than absolute time [16:18]
decimation are we worrying about relativistic bitcoin? [16:18]
mircea_popescu ordering has jack shit to do with timekeeping [16:18]
mircea_popescu i dunno why people keep mushin them together [16:18]
mircea_popescu they're like sleeping and fucking [16:18]
punkman blockchain doesn't order events based on time [16:18]
mircea_popescu "oh, happens in bed" "really ? fuck you." [16:18]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: almost all timekeeping is really for ordering! [16:19]
ascii_field including in bitcoin [16:19]
mircea_popescu doesn't matter! [16:19]
* shovel_boss has quit (Quit: Leaving) [16:19]
jurov why? in hft order doesn't matter? [16:19]
mircea_popescu punkman it actually DOES order events to some degree based on time. [16:20]
mircea_popescu hence rejected blocks from the future. [16:20]
ascii_field << the machine tried to keep folks from 'rewriting history' [16:20]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 19:14:54; punkman: blockchain doesn't order events based on time [16:20]
mircea_popescu jurov the way you use the cow's teat is not the alpha and omega of what the cow teat is. [16:20]
ascii_field sorta the whole point [16:20]
ascii_field lamport's achievement was to abstract out some of the attributes of timekeeping we actually ~need~ [16:20]
mircea_popescu sure. but this does not reflect on timekeeping [16:20]
mircea_popescu it reflects on us. [16:20]
ascii_field aha [16:20]
punkman I don't see how lamport clock would help [16:21]
mircea_popescu it wouldn't. [16:21]
ascii_field not that virtually no one ~actually cares how many seconds it's been since midnight jan 1 1969~ [16:21]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69700 @ 0.00057153 = 39.8356 BTC [+] {3} [16:21]
mircea_popescu ascii_field they don't care now in the manner they don't care about how well oiled their rifle is. [16:21]
mircea_popescu once it comes to it, they care or they go away. [16:22]
ascii_field just that 'oiled enough' [16:22]
mircea_popescu like the housewives, you know, "oph, i don;t care about the crisis, my husband does all that money stuff" "orly ? shut up and sit down, goose." [16:22]
* mike_c has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [16:23]
ascii_field evidently i failed to make the minor point here [16:23]
BingoBoingo so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp. << reimplemented, can't guarentee not retarded in its own way [16:23]
ascii_field the 1969 thing is an arbitrary aspect of the mechanism [16:23]
ascii_field rather than the essential [16:24]
mircea_popescu well sure. [16:24]
decimation ascii_field: you seem to imply that you need to run ntp daemon to use ntp [16:24]
mircea_popescu to TRUST ntp [16:24]
ascii_field decimation: it is well known that you don't [16:24]
ascii_field can ask for time once, yes [16:24]
ascii_field but from whom? [16:24]
decimation exactly [16:24]
ascii_field and if you don't hear an answer ? [16:24]
* diana_coman (~diana_com@unaffiliated/diana-coman/x-8319396) has joined #bitcoin-assets [16:24]
ascii_field and how do you know the answer did not come from satanic isp ? [16:25]
decimation well, there is such a thing as signed ntp [16:25]
decimation I'm not sure how simple it would be to implement [16:25]
ascii_field now hitler controls your box [16:25]
mircea_popescu you know how satoshi would have solved this problem, rigth ? [16:25]
decimation don't need to only rely on the ntp reply [16:25]
ascii_field we already know how he solved it [16:25]
mircea_popescu nono. [16:25]
ascii_field by asking winblows for the time. [16:25]
decimation it can be hyptothetical until blocks start rolling in [16:25]
mircea_popescu hardcode in the cpp [16:25]
assbot Coming Events In Bible Prophecy ... ( ) [16:25]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15195 @ 0.00057196 = 8.6909 BTC [+] {2} [16:25]
ascii_field see, i almost guessed. [16:25]
decimation hitler cannot change the clock on the pogo [16:26]
decimation pogo can record times he observes new blocks since boot [16:26]
ascii_field he can if it treats his signet as ultimate authority [16:26]
decimation doesn't need to, treats as man on the street [16:26]
mircea_popescu in other news i am pleased to inform the general public that my pyromania is progressing nicely. [16:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33605 @ 0.00057273 = 19.2466 BTC [+] {2} [16:26]
ascii_field hm? [16:27]
mircea_popescu listen, can't the thing ask the local isp for time ? [16:29]
decimation hitler controls time and your isp [16:29]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: ???!!!????? [16:30]
ascii_field there is no widespread custom of isp running a time server [16:30]
mircea_popescu really ? [16:30]
ascii_field certainly not on this side of the ocean [16:30]
mircea_popescu they run dns but not time ? [16:30]
ascii_field aha [16:30]
mircea_popescu logical. [16:30]
ascii_field conceivably, ~somewhere~ they do [16:30]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00055558 = 6.9448 BTC [-] [16:30]
mircea_popescu last i looked into it my isp actually fed you time, on special port. [16:31]
mircea_popescu off of their own atomic clock no less [16:31]
ascii_field ntp is low-enough traffic that most of the planet asks usg more or less directly [16:31]
ascii_field and comically, without authentication of any kind [16:31]
mircea_popescu (also telco and radio provider etc) [16:31]
ascii_field anyone recall old thread about banks getting time from gps antennae ? [16:31]
decimation mircea_popescu: all of those could be forged by hitler [16:31]
ascii_field (also without authentication) [16:32]
ascii_field don't even need hitler there. just a kid with an sdr card [16:32]
mircea_popescu decimation intranet ? notrly. [16:32]
mircea_popescu are you being parodic ? [16:32]
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ascii_field the banks thing really happens [16:32]
decimation I'm telling you things I"ve been told [16:32]
ascii_field someone, iirc, discovered that you could move the clock on most 'atm' machines this way [16:33]
decimation nobody has told me why I can't observe the position of the sun in the sky, use today's date, and reduce the time [16:33]
decimation then setup an ntp server [16:33]
ascii_field decimation: you can do this, and sign the result with your gossipd key, etc. sure [16:34]
mircea_popescu decimation what i said was that if you use usg-supplied cutouts for that reduction, you're just doing a roundabout ntp call. might as well ask directly [16:34]
ascii_field but this does not exist today. [16:34]
ascii_field and if it did, hitler could simply delay the packet [16:34]
ascii_field realize that we are talking about ~time~ [16:34]
decimation as in, a printed table? [16:34]
ascii_field mitm can make the answer 1) verify sig correctly 2) be arbitrarily wrong [16:34]
decimation what usg cutouts? [16:34]
mircea_popescu how do you get the calibration data ? [16:34]
* devthedev has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [16:35]
decimation there exist astronomy libraries like that could be used to make such tables [16:35]
assbot Python AstroLib — PyAstronomy 0.8.1 documentation ... ( ) [16:35]
mircea_popescu for your locale ? [16:35]
decimation absolutely [16:36]
mircea_popescu i do not dispute they exist. what i said, again, was that if you use a nist table you're basically querying ntp. [16:36]
ascii_field ^^ [16:36]
decimation well, yes, but the math is not very difficult to verify [16:36]
mircea_popescu yes, it is :) [16:36]
* devthedev (~devthedev@unaffiliated/devthedev) has joined #bitcoin-assets [16:36]
mircea_popescu because you need a clock. [16:36]
ascii_field verify against ~what~ ? [16:36]
mircea_popescu lol [16:36]
decimation occultations [16:36]
ascii_field realize that earth time is a political fiction [16:36]
mircea_popescu well, a convention, but anyway. [16:37]
ascii_field think of it this way [16:37]
decimation a political fiction that for the time being is tied to observable astronomic phenomenon [16:37]
ascii_field decimation measures the time, by observing a pulsar [16:37]
mircea_popescu there's no "truthful" means to breach a convention by getting the REAL reality of it. just like you can't deduce a girl out of her panties. [16:37]
ascii_field (one of the most accurate timebases found in nature) [16:37]
ascii_field but now he wants to ~tell mircea_popescu the time~ [16:37]
mircea_popescu decimation it's "tied" in a conventional manner. [16:37]
ascii_field i.e. how many counts since last time mircea_popescu asked [16:37]
ascii_field and this is where the boojum comes in! [16:37]
ascii_field they are a continent apart [16:37]
ascii_field between, are devils [16:38]
* devthedev has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [16:38]
mircea_popescu nah, they left. [16:38]
ascii_field who can delay the messages at will [16:38]
ascii_field l0l [16:38]
mircea_popescu so are we putting a pulsar on the pogo usb or what. [16:38]
mircea_popescu can be a small one off amazon. [16:38]
ascii_field trying to illustrate the notion of 'political time' here [16:38]
decimation I can tell him that a mutually observable passing of mercury in front of a star will be at 6pm [16:39]
decimation (assuming same hemisphere roughly) [16:39]
ascii_field then it rains [16:39]
ascii_field and one or both of you miss it. [16:39]
ascii_field then waht [16:39]
mircea_popescu he has a point, he ~can~ sync like that, but only provided he actually did the measurements as to which star himself. [16:39]
decimation use hitler's time until it can be verified [16:39]
ascii_field why not use it every day then [16:40]
ascii_field whole problem with bitcoin is that hitler can induce permanent damage by playing with the clock on rare occasions and in localized ways [16:40]
decimation not if you only ntp once [16:41]
ascii_field on powerup [16:41]
decimation yep [16:41]
mircea_popescu if only once were a thing. [16:41]
ascii_field then hitler knows exactly when to fuck with ntp! [16:41]
ascii_field when a city loses power [16:41]
decimation and then ditch hitler's time once you have synced with block chain and can use its timestamps [16:41]
ascii_field as mircea_popescu points out, 'once' is a many-time thing here [16:41]
decimation relative to your pogo's clock [16:41]
ascii_field decimation: i discussed the problem with letting blockchain affect the time, earlier [16:42]
mircea_popescu ascii_field you still don't like my, "-time=blabla" in start-up call ? [16:42]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: it is inapplicable for pogo [16:42]
jurov i propose to wire electrodes up on the pogo chassis and synchronize time using chosen woman's periods [16:42]
decimation lulz [16:42]
ascii_field ^^^ winner [16:42]
ascii_field except, make pogo go in [16:42]
mircea_popescu fertility THAT bad in slovakia ? [16:42]
ascii_field l0l [16:45]
mircea_popescu << you can't actually mislead anyone [16:46]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 14:50:38; asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others [16:46]
mircea_popescu you can't rewrite the blocks. [16:46]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: we were discussion a variant where nodes ask one another [16:46]
ascii_field the one where blocks - sure [16:46]
mircea_popescu i thought from your prev line you weren't but anywa [16:46]
ascii_field iirc decimation suggested one [16:46]
ascii_field but yes, if using block timestamps, pogos can only be mislead, cannot mislead others (unless some fool were to mine via 'getwork'-ing a pogo!) [16:47]
trinque << "This item has been discontinued." [16:48]
trinque :( [16:48]
assbot USB Precision Clock ... ( ) [16:48]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [16:48]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [16:48]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [16:48]
* trinque was born just after everything cool was discontinued [16:48]
mircea_popescu << use them in various attacks he means [16:48]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 15:10:23; jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution [16:48]
ascii_field trinque: not only discontinued, but costs like 4+ pogos !!! [16:48]
trinque oh bah [16:48]
mircea_popescu i don't feel too good about asking people who trust me to put a box on the net that's open to flooding people. [16:48]
trinque the cost is not prohibitive [16:48]
ascii_field plus shipping. [16:48]
trinque how poor are people? [16:48]
trinque spend more on a heavy night drinking [16:49]
ascii_field trinque: please understand, for this cost you can ship a pc! [16:49]
mircea_popescu ascii_field that foolk is not so much of a fool [16:49]
ascii_field no need for pogo then! [16:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00056712 = 3.1759 BTC [+] [16:49]
mircea_popescu i was entertaining delusions of pogos being used as net propo for small home miners. [16:49]
trinque sure but then no sweet usb radio clock [16:49]
ascii_field trinque: the entire point is to use THE $20 BOX WE HAVE [16:49]
trinque fine fine [16:49]
ascii_field without turning it into a shittier version of the $150 box phoundation et al have [16:49]
ascii_field that any idiot can have [16:49]
mircea_popescu that also doesn't keep time./ [16:49]
ascii_field pretty sure theirs has rtc [16:50]
mircea_popescu << me lol. [16:50]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 15:12:23; asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ? [16:50]
ascii_field the 100 usd 'pc engines' board i mentioned a few weeks ago does. [16:50]
jurov i did not mean for pogo to promiscuously accept or even emit ntp packets! [16:50]
mircea_popescu what, you think 1k is a barrier ? 1mn is a barriere. maybe. 1k is not a barrier. [16:50]
ascii_field did not say 'barrier', necessarily, but it does raise the number of bots required [16:51]
decimation I guess I percieve the reliance on an ntp server for time as being a much smaller attack surface than relying on operating bitcoind nodes for sync [16:51]
mircea_popescu jurov i think there is at least one attack where lamer is made to think victim is ntp server [16:51]
jurov yes but that does not depend on victim [16:51]
ascii_field the basic, irrecoverable problem with ntp is that one can 'amplify' [16:51]
ascii_field that is, forge a request for the time [16:51]
ascii_field and get more bits back (to victim, that is) than you had to send. [16:51]
jurov you mean , pogo issues ntp requests, get million packets within seconds? [16:52]
mircea_popescu jurov i mean, pogo asks for ntp time, malicious server sayus "ask a.b.c.d" pogo asks. [16:52]
ascii_field jurov: worse. it'll be among those ~sending~ the replies [16:52]
mircea_popescu one thousand pogos ask. [16:52]
decimation ascii_field: it's trival to stop that [16:53]
ascii_field ntp is retarded fractally, on every scale [16:53]
ascii_field decimation: and when new bug is discovered? then? [16:53]
decimation and once again, you are talking about the daemon [16:53]
mircea_popescu i;m not a great fan either ; nevertheless i suspect it is a marginally better solution than the current best which is "just taker block". [16:53]
jurov NOT a daemon [16:53]
ascii_field decimation: the variant where it asks on powerup is also retarded [16:53]
jurov just a ting that issues one packet, receives one and shuts itself [16:53]
mircea_popescu for one thing : it costs us 20k to deploy 1k of these. i doubt hitler wants to ruin his ntp for 20k [16:53]
ascii_field because it will happily accept any answer [16:53]
decimation mircea_popescu: not to mention also ruin $1000000k commerce in the process [16:54]
mircea_popescu << lmao get out. [16:54]
ascii_field ntp from random selection among 1,000 ip (not dns, but ip) ntp nodes, PLUS sanity check using blockchain, could be a practical answer. [16:54]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 15:22:37; asciilifeform: and work without invoking dns [16:54]
ascii_field fuck dns [16:54]
ascii_field i don't want dns in there. anywhere. [16:54]
mircea_popescu you can't have ntp without windows solitaire, what world do you live on [16:54]
mircea_popescu DEPENDENCIES [16:54]
decimation all you are doing is asking some shlub for the time [16:55]
ascii_field pour gasoline on them. [16:55]
decimation ask 10 randomly, and if they all give nonsense then you are fucked [16:55]
decimation might as well buy a telescope and start with your navigation tables [16:55]
mircea_popescu decimation naaah, average it out [16:55]
ascii_field decimation: the idea is that they will all agree, because you're actually taking to room 101 at your isp [16:55]
mircea_popescu that's how france kept time up until 1990 [16:55]
ascii_field and not any ntp servers at all [16:55]
decimation well, it's a separate question about signed ntp requests [16:56]
decimation which addresses that issue [16:56]
decimation now hitler must pwn random boxes unknown to him beforehand [16:56]
ascii_field the only folks willing to sign ntp (for a fee!) is us navy [16:56]
ascii_field decimation: he does not need to pwn random boxes! only intercept ntp on your line. [16:56]
jurov if that, you will actually talk to one bitcoind at isp, too [16:56]
jurov what now? [16:56]
decimation ^ exactly [16:56]
ascii_field jurov: this is harder because proof-of-wortk [16:56]
decimation feeds your pogo bullshit too [16:56]
ascii_field a faux blockchain is considerably more of an undertaking to arrange [16:57]
decimation not if it controls everything, can make up bullshit chain with 0 difficult [16:57]
* Lycerion has quit (Quit: Leaving) [16:57]
ascii_field decimation: is it not obvious that this is far easier to detect via mechanical means ? [16:57]
jurov it's certainly more attractive to isp than mucking with ntp [16:57]
mircea_popescu so ntp is actually emerging towards consensus here ? over alf's dead body / [16:57]
mircea_popescu mod6 you there ? [16:57]
* Lycerion (~Lycerion@unaffiliated/lycerion) has joined #bitcoin-assets [16:57]
decimation easier than noting wallclock time? [16:57]
ascii_field hell, folks in here were ringing the alarm on account of empty blocks [16:57]
ascii_field before ph0rk was apparent [16:57]
mod6 yeah. haven't been able to follow for the last 45 minutes though. [16:58]
decimation I was yes [16:58]
* mod6 reads scrollback [16:58]
decimation maybe I should start watching venus too [16:58]
ascii_field realize, i don't have a better solution than ntp. but it has to be done sanely (no dns; builds under musl or uclibc; doesn't introduce more than a few dozen lines of code; and picks from $bigint ip on powerup; and sanity-checked from blockchain ) [16:58]
mircea_popescu dozen ? [16:58]
mircea_popescu aahahahahaha [16:59]
ascii_field see jurov's link [16:59]
mircea_popescu no i really wish to see this [16:59]
jurov parsing ntp reply doesn't need lots of code [16:59]
ascii_field [16:59]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 15:25:42; jurov: [16:59]
ascii_field ^ example [16:59]
* trinque mutters about there being low-frequency radio time signals passing through his body this moment, and cannot find a single distributor for a sane, cheap usb receiver [16:59]
trinque the fucking world we live in [16:59]
decimation trinque: I've tried too [16:59]
ascii_field trinque: gps has timebase. but any moron can fool it [16:59]
decimation came to the conclusion that must do self [17:00]
ascii_field with stronger signal [17:00]
mircea_popescu actually that's not so horrible as i thought. [17:00]
mircea_popescu what's #include ? [17:00]
decimation ru, us, others alll broadcast multiple signals [17:00]
decimation that's a standard socket header [17:00]
ascii_field decimation: yes, and the kid across the street has the strongest signal [17:00]
ascii_field if he wants to [17:00]
ascii_field for us, ru, cn [17:00]
mod6 as dumb as it sounds, i thought about ICMP 13 (dispite it being often fw'd) and checking TS against default route. [17:00]
mircea_popescu how;s that get you time ? [17:01]
mod6 it returns a timestamp [17:01]
ascii_field not all isp will even let through icmp, no ? [17:01]
mod6 (often fw'd) [17:01]
decimation nobody runs standard unix services anymore [17:01]
decimation like finger or chargen [17:02]
mod6 but... if it's behind a NAT< then you can control the default route [17:02]
ascii_field seems like a sure way to end up with wild numbers [17:02]
mod6 maybe you set your router to respond to this? i dunno. was a passing thought. [17:02]
mircea_popescu << actually was on trilema. [17:02]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 16:20:56; mats: loled [17:02]
assbot So I found the libertard motherlode on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [17:02]
mircea_popescu mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp" [17:03]
mircea_popescu in the best case you end up with a ntp pt [17:03]
ascii_field mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo [17:03]
mod6 <+mircea_popescu> mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp" << yeah. [17:04]
ascii_field may as well ask him (her!) to set up a gentoo [17:04]
mircea_popescu o wait, that was a DIFFERENT liberal professor bitching abotu the hell of their own making [17:04]
mircea_popescu my bad mats [17:04]
mod6 <+ascii_field> mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo << yeah was reading what you guys were saying. basically why I didn't bring it up. too hard for mom & pop. [17:04]
ascii_field bad enough that this thing will need upnp [17:05]
ascii_field and will fail to be externally reachable at all a good chunk of the time [17:05]
decimation 'this system where we take turns accusing each other of being an enemy of the revolution can come around to bite me!' [17:05]
shinohai @ mircea_popescu I *think* I sent an email correctly in order to purchase some trilema credits [17:05]
mircea_popescu shinohai didja pay ? [17:06]
mircea_popescu decimation that's ok, we have a good sense of humour about it. [17:06]
mircea_popescu yet. [17:06]
shinohai Was waiting on a reply email. I filled out form but was unsure if it was accepted. [17:06]
mircea_popescu not liable to get anything unless you pay. [17:07]
mircea_popescu (why would you, there's no indication it's your email) [17:07]
ascii_field 'when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs' (tm) (r) [17:07]
shinohai I misunderstand then. I thought an address for deposit is emailed to you. [17:08]
* mircea_popescu looks at this thing [17:08]
mircea_popescu it's been in place for so long i forgot [17:09]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.16325969 = 1.6326 BTC [-] [17:09]
jurov folks. "hackedteam" leak is 99% downloaded, but i don't really have a place to publicly host it [17:10]
ascii_field mircea_popescu ^ ? [17:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47151 @ 0.00056758 = 26.762 BTC [+] {2} [17:10]
jurov if i'm to put it on s3, only private [17:10]
ascii_field not a bad test of how 'bulletproof' mircea_popescu's new fleet of boxes is ? [17:10]
mircea_popescu shinohai well yeah, you put your email in there, get an email with address. didja ? [17:10]
mircea_popescu jurov feel free to put it on your binaries acct. [17:11]
ascii_field perhaps untar it first [17:11]
ascii_field so it's browsable [17:11]
mircea_popescu ^ [17:11]
jurov it's untarred [17:11]
ascii_field not everybody wants the whole ball of shit [17:11]
mircea_popescu please DO untar it either first or there before publishing [17:11]
jurov it comes untarred, i mean [17:11]
ascii_field ah [17:11]
mircea_popescu aite. [17:12]
mircea_popescu jurov let me know when it's uploaded so i can mirror it. [17:12]
jurov yea, eta 20hours [17:12]
mircea_popescu lolk [17:12]
* mircea_popescu will put it online under trilema/uploads [17:13]
ascii_field neato! [17:13]
mircea_popescu in other news, [17:14]
assbot ... ( ) [17:14]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: where was your article with the boy, gurl, two frag grenades, and a length of twine ? [17:15]
mircea_popescu haha hmmm [17:15]
ascii_field the vectorized difficulty thing made me recall it [17:15]
mircea_popescu [17:15]
* cosmo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [17:15]
assbot The twu luv torture on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [17:15]
ascii_field aha! [17:15]
ascii_field ty mircea_popescu [17:15]
shinohai I love, but damn their mail server is so slow. [17:16]
jurov just check there's 400G free and 190k inodes [17:16]
jurov mircea_popescu: ^ [17:16]
* mircea_popescu checks [17:16]
* xff has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [17:17]
mod6 I'm currently a bit distracted. I'll re-read all of this discussion on my way back and think about it. [17:18]
mircea_popescu inodes 58M iused 374K ifree 58M [17:18]
shinohai Todays crypto financial genius award goes to: [17:18]
assbot I took a loan at 25% on prosper and put it on ltc - panic attack from the price going down : litecoin ... ( ) [17:18]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [17:18]
mircea_popescu !up ascii_field [17:18]
-assbot- You voiced ascii_field for 30 minutes. [17:18]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [17:18]
ascii_field wtf is 'prosper' [17:18]
mircea_popescu don't ask and you won't have to find out. [17:19]
shinohai [17:19]
assbot Prosper | Home ... ( ) [17:19]
mircea_popescu "wtf is citizen dentistry ?" "really ?" [17:19]
* ascii_field true to form, is sorry he found out [17:19]
mircea_popescu anyway, ima go play my game. [17:20]
mircea_popescu yallz are missing out! [17:20]
jurov mircea_popescu: you need to do sth with the inodes [17:20]
mircea_popescu o first [17:20]
* shinohai never could get into gaming [17:20]
mircea_popescu jurov hm ? [17:20]
jurov oh, it has 58M inodes? okay then [17:21]
mircea_popescu jurov you making me the irc game client ? [17:21]
jurov yes. [17:21]
mircea_popescu yay. [17:21]
jurov for 2BTC [17:21]
mircea_popescu hm. [17:21]
mircea_popescu is it actually going to work ? [17:21]
mircea_popescu are you providing a "mp satisfaction guarantee" with it ? [17:21]
jurov well, you pay after [17:21]
mircea_popescu then it's a deal. [17:21]
jurov maybe i'll catch aneurysm from that cpp turd first [17:22]
mircea_popescu i see it likely [17:22]
ascii_field wai wat [17:22]
mircea_popescu (pro tip : it doesn't handle pasting atm har har.) [17:22]
ascii_field was this an open rfc ? [17:22]
mircea_popescu ascii_field i just asked him yest. [17:22]
jurov yes. you don't read trilema? [17:22]
ascii_field ah just for jurov then [17:22]
mircea_popescu ascii_field i don't want you to be doingm it, you do useful things with your time [17:23]
ascii_field mircea_popescu: fair [17:23]
mircea_popescu like being unreasonable with the pogos [17:23]
ascii_field though i'll probably end up with the bounty for the callgraph [17:23]
ascii_field if anyone does [17:23]
ascii_field because no one seems to be giving a flying fuck [17:23]
jurov and btw, there's 0.5BTC bounty for eulora on mac. [17:23]
ascii_field and that thing needs to happen [17:23]
trinque ascii_field: I spent a good part of last evening working on it [17:23]
trinque tools are all dogshit [17:23]
trinque [17:23]
assbot ... ( ) [17:23]
ascii_field trinque: yes, i recall [17:23]
jurov be quick before it gets on my nerves and i'll get some apple machine [17:24]
mircea_popescu ascii_field i think a few people are trying, but yes, as trinque says [17:24]
ascii_field there is no tool to work with, afaik [17:24]
mircea_popescu nobody realises they live in a house of shit until they try to go out the door [17:24]
* shinohai > mfw there is no cloud, only someone else's computer ... [17:24]
BingoBoingo [17:24]
assbot Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( ) [17:24]
ascii_field the chart needs to account for literally 100% of the src lines [17:24]
ascii_field and, conversely, contain nothing extraneous [17:24]
mircea_popescu careful shinohai next you'll buy into the cult koolaid that milk doesn't come from supermarket [17:25]
mircea_popescu and then where'll you be [17:25]
shinohai Then I'll have to buy a cow. Or marry one. [17:25]
shinohai I'm close to the state of Alabama, shouldn't be hard. [17:25]
ascii_field BingoBoingo: surprised it took so long for the shitgang to start rolling out obfuscatory smoke ? [17:26]
ascii_field 'it wasn't us, because we're the core devs, and ergo it wasn't us, fuck you' [17:26]
jurov mircea_popescu: owait, the task includes copy/paste from/to eulora? [17:26]
BingoBoingo ascii_field: Well, gavin stopped. I guess now they roll on to the next one. [17:26]
ascii_field wai wut [17:26]
ascii_field stopped what [17:26]
BingoBoingo ascii_field: Stopped commenting on qntra [17:27]
ascii_field ah [17:27]
BingoBoingo " [17:28]
BingoBoingo Obviously something went wrong, but blaming the process, or Bitcoin Core's implementation is disingenious. Neither was this caused by wide use of old software, because old software would simply keep producing v2 blocks, so the change would never have triggered." << Ergo these new multi-block forks aren't happening [17:28]
ascii_field gotta love the philippinos [17:28]
ascii_field can crap out four paragraphs of acceptable english, adding up to nothing at all [17:29]
mircea_popescu jurov how am i going to speak here if i can't paste the assbot text ? [17:29]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo [17:29]
assbot Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( ) [17:29]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i assume that's laanwj [17:31]
BingoBoingo Well, he didn't sign the comment [17:31]
mircea_popescu hence assume. [17:31]
mircea_popescu because why sign things when you're "in crypto". he's an expert at counting fucking goats [17:32]
ascii_field voats [17:32]
mircea_popescu "what shall we fuck today ?" "nine" [17:32]
* ascii_field has taken to pronouncing 'goat', 'voat', with accent on syllables, as in 'coax' cabl [17:33]
pete_dushenski << 999,657 byte transaction with 9 confirmations. [17:46]
* starsoccer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [17:47]
trinque blockchain wont load on this end [17:47]
trinque .info that is [17:47]
trinque ah there it went [17:48]
* starsoccer ( has joined #bitcoin-assets [17:48]
trinque "Warning! this transaction is a double spend. You should be extremely careful when trusting any transactions to/from this sender." [17:48]
* starsoccer is now known as Guest27290 [17:48]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [17:49]
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* Guest27290 is now known as starsoccer [17:50]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [17:50]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [17:50]
ascii_field [17:50]
assbot GSG-Elektronik - Seagate Dockstar RTC-MOD ... ( ) [17:50]
ascii_field ^ adding the missing rtc crystal & power source to 'dockstart', machine using same chipset as pogo [17:50]
* starsoccer is now known as Starsoccer [17:50]
ascii_field not practical for 5,000 [17:50]
ascii_field unless someone has a stable of slaves [17:50]
ascii_field << english, better photos [17:51]
assbot Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Dockstar Pinout SDHC Card and I2C ... ( ) [17:51]
pete_dushenski 'double spend' block is crazy close to 1,000,000 byte over-under here : [17:52]
assbot BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 3.84 B (13%) on Yes, 25.68 B (87%) on No | closing in 4 months 1 week| weight: 41`573 (100`000 to 1) ... ( ) [17:52]
* flabkebab (~car313@2a02:1205:c698:ccd0:cd89:7b4d:c588:a7fe) has joined #bitcoin-assets [17:52]
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ascii_field << incidentally, this is the reference design on which 'pogo' is based [17:55]
danielpbarron !up flabkebab [17:55]
assbot ... ( ) [17:55]
* assbot gives voice to flabkebab [17:55]
ascii_field complete schematics and pedantically agonizing docs [17:55]
ascii_field or nm, not complete [17:55]
* ascii_field is quite certain he saw the whole thing somewhere ! [17:55]
* ag3nt_zer0 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [17:56]
ascii_field << it [17:57]
assbot ... ( ) [17:57]
danielpbarron pete_dushenski, guy paid 0 fees to make that thing [17:57]
pete_dushenski lol ya i guess so eh [17:58]
pete_dushenski 12 confs on it too [17:58]
trinque the system works? [17:59]
trinque or was that not what the "stress testers" were trying to demonstrate [17:59]
ascii_field << another version [18:00]
assbot ... ( ) [18:00]
danielpbarron the outputs must be old enough to not set off spam filters or whatever [18:00]
danielpbarron or the guy knows an actual miner [18:00]
danielpbarron i like how the block-filling transaction cost nothing, meanwhile redditards are flipping out that they would have to pay 0.0002 if they actually had bitcoin to spend [18:02]
BingoBoingo !b 3 [18:03]
assbot Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [18:03]
pete_dushenski << 40k euros for 'hacking team' to implant agent to track opponent's bitcoin transactions [18:04]
pete_dushenski not cheap ! [18:04]
pete_dushenski (sorry about pdfturd) [18:04]
trinque danielpbarron: my point exactly; bitcoin's own fee mechanism defends against this bullshit [18:04]
trinque if someone really wants to "spam" let him pay the fees sufficient to do so, and he can keep that up for as many blocks as he likes, bidding against every other person who wants in the block [18:05]
trinque I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate [18:06]
trinque 'cept that when the best platform for capitalism ever devised appears, fucktards still think markets wont work within it [18:06]
ascii_field trinque: it is abundantly clear what they are trying to do [18:07]
BingoBoingo stress test demonstrates 1MB is plenty big to allow for periodic spam attacks, and bigger blocks would make bloat attacks still cheaper [18:07]
ascii_field it being, price themselves out of tx, and then clamour for 'deeeeemooocracy' [18:07]
ascii_field the bloat attack is deliberat [18:07]
trinque of course it is [18:07]
pete_dushenski or make nodes drop off network [18:07]
trinque yet I can still get transactions through just fine [18:07]
trinque with a pittance of a fee [18:08]
ascii_field it also has the purpose of trying to thin the node herd [18:08]
ascii_field and push more fools onto 'spv' [18:08]
ascii_field for ease of usgification [18:08]
trinque sort mempool by fee and fuck the poor? [18:08]
ascii_field i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1. [18:09]
flabkebab hello [18:09]
trinque flabkebab: good afternoon [18:10]
pete_dushenski ascii_field took time for the drones to be lined up, meetings to be had, coffee to be drunk, etc. [18:10]
danielpbarron i have not noticed the "network test" except that my actual full nodes sometimes differ by (sometimes rarely) as much as a few dozen blocks before eventually settling in on the true height. My transaction sending has been uneffected. [18:10]
pete_dushenski it's not like bureaucracy, y'know, works or anything [18:10]
flabkebab So I've been having a go at the callgraph thing [18:11]
* flabkebab has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [18:11]
* flabkebab_ (~car313@2a02:1205:c698:ccd0:cd89:7b4d:c588:a7fe) has joined #bitcoin-assets [18:13]
danielpbarron !up flabkebab_ [18:13]
* assbot gives voice to flabkebab_ [18:13]
flabkebab_ thanks, xchat crashed [18:14]
flabkebab_ so here is the mess I have so far: [18:14]
assbot G ... ( ) [18:14]
ascii_field flabkebab_: so you got a callgraph ? [18:14]
* ascii_field looks [18:14]
trinque looks better than my rat-king [18:14]
ascii_field that still doesn't look like ~all~ the unique symbols in the tree [18:14]
ascii_field not to mention that it is unreadable [18:15]
ascii_field my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four [18:15]
trinque lol [18:15]
ascii_field not interested in balls of yarn [18:15]
trinque ascii_field: it's gonna take something where you can grab a node and have it trace only that one [18:16]
ascii_field trinque: we have this already!!!! [18:16]
ascii_field lxr [18:16]
trinque I was using "gephi" for this [18:16]
ascii_field i DON'T WANT that [18:16]
trinque no [18:16]
ascii_field want a fucking WALL POSTER [18:16]
trinque I mean an interface to the dot [18:16]
trinque yeah well the call graph itself is tangled [18:16]
flabkebab_ hmm [18:16]
trinque can probably not be untangled in 2d [18:16]
ascii_field this one doesn't look like it even tried [18:16]
flabkebab_ I also tried something less... ball-yarny [18:16]
flabkebab_ Edges too close together and was also unreadbale [18:17]
trinque gephi will shake the graph out for ya with various plugins [18:17]
flabkebab_ *unreadable [18:17]
trinque can change attraction params on a node, so on [18:17]
trinque still looked like shi [18:17]
trinque *shit [18:17]
ascii_field all related objects must be near one another [18:17]
jurov mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps [18:18]
trinque jurov: room 101 [18:18]
jurov and it's going up again [18:18]
flabkebab_ ascii_field: as in, same file, or as in same cluster of linked nodes? [18:18]
ascii_field trinque: technically, packets are diddled in room 641a. room 101 is where they put rats in your face [18:18]
ascii_field flabkebab_: as in, on the picture [18:19]
trinque ah right [18:19]
ascii_field look at your picture. would you, personally, get any use out of this ? [18:19]
trinque 101 diddles *you* [18:19]
ascii_field if the answer is no - what makes you think ~i~ could [18:19]
flabkebab_ ya I see. [18:20]
ascii_field << example of a ~readable~ callgraph [18:20]
assbot ... ( ) [18:20]
ascii_field taken, at random, from the net [18:20]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [18:20]
trinque I wrote a thing that did a force directed graph for an ebnf once [18:20]
trinque but the ebnf I was modeling wasn't convoluted inward on itself this haphazardly [18:21]
trinque !up ascii_field [18:21]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [18:21]
ascii_field << another example [18:21]
assbot ... ( ) [18:21]
trinque that code is way simpler, or missing nodes [18:21]
ascii_field this does not follow [18:21]
trinque lemme see if I can screenshot gephi before my laptop dies [18:22]
ascii_field the graph flabkebab_ showed does not even attempt to place symbols ~anywhere near~ even one of their links !! [18:22]
ascii_field they are just dropped down in columns, in apparently random order [18:23]
danielpbarron on the topic of time and the pogo, I should point out that I recently had to update the time on my blue pogo (the one i'm using as a web server / irc client) because it had drifted from the real time by as much as a quarter hour in the few months it had been running continuously [18:23]
* jurov expects a discovery that satoshi cast and called functions from void* [18:23]
ascii_field danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing [18:24]
ascii_field it has interrupt-based timekeeping [18:24]
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* gives voice to lobbes [18:24]
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ascii_field which means that it is severely pushed off course by events outside of its control [18:24]
ascii_field many interrupts - skipped moves of emulated clock [18:24]
ascii_field mircea_popescu ^ [18:24]
* ChanServ removes voice from lobbesbot [18:25]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.00055754 = 9.06 BTC [-] {2} [18:25]
* assbot gives voice to lobbes [18:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00055558 = 3.5002 BTC [-] [18:27]
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* assbot gives voice to lobbesbot [18:30]
ascii_field the callgraph thing is a straight 'travelling salesman' problem [18:33]
ascii_field but gotta minimize the crossings of the paths. [18:33]
ascii_field likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree. [18:34]
jurov mircea_popescu: one hour of uploading looked like this: [18:39]
assbot ... ( ) [18:39]
BingoBoingo danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing << query timeserver every modulo(rand) seconds? [18:46]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37800 @ 0.00055432 = 20.9533 BTC [-] {3} [18:47]
mats [18:49]
assbot My aimful life: Building reliable SMM backdoor for UEFI based platforms ... ( ) [18:49]
* assbot removes voice from ascii_field [18:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00056168 = 2.4714 BTC [+] [18:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52042 @ 0.00055206 = 28.7303 BTC [-] {2} [18:59]
asciilifeform !up ascii_field [19:04]
* assbot gives voice to ascii_field [19:04]
ascii_field BingoBoingo: querying it at all is problematic. see today's thread. [19:04]
ascii_field mats: read that last night. notice how it wants you to build with microshit vs!!! [19:04]
ascii_field what a disgrace [19:04]
BingoBoingo querying at all is problematic. If it must be queried though best to make the timing of queries less predictable. [19:05]
ascii_field (and before anyone chimes in with 'of course vs' - this is empirically false. can build arbitrarily complicated crapware for winblows with gcc) [19:05]
BingoBoingo ^ like Bitcoin [19:05]
ascii_field i've build drivers for winblows with mingw (gcc) [19:06]
ascii_field it is possible to develop for winblows and remain sane if you treat it like a 'nintendo' [19:06]
ascii_field that is, only for testing [19:06]
ascii_field no one writes code for nintendo ~on~ a nintendo [19:07]
mats i wonder why it failed to build on OS X [19:07]
ascii_field mats: which 'it' ? [19:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27024 @ 0.00055973 = 15.1261 BTC [+] {2} [19:07]
mats driver [19:07]
ascii_field ask him [19:08]
* saulimus has quit (Quit: Leaving) [19:09]
danielpbarron >> I don't understand, are you under the impression that the program sets the system clock? It doesn't. << Satoshi on bitcoin time [19:11]
assbot Warning : Check your system clock (help me) ... ( ) [19:11]
ascii_field we know that it doesn't [19:11]
ascii_field danielpbarron: if you missed the thread - it was about how we have no clock on pogo [19:11]
danielpbarron i have read it all; just happened upon this relevant thread coincidentally [19:12]
danielpbarron in 2010 a very similar conversation was being had over on the forum [19:13]
ascii_field and notice how it ended [19:16]
ascii_field 'folks will be expected to use ntp' [19:16]
trinque ascii_field: seems like this has to have the information you want >> [19:18]
trinque dxr, that is [19:18]
assbot +callers:mozilla::a11y::AccessibleWrap::Shutdown() - DXR Search ... ( ) [19:18]
trinque uses clang [19:18]
trinque that's a virtual method [19:19]
ascii_field wai wat [19:19]
trinque so perhaps if I can find where it stores the symbol table, I can get the data out of this vast piece of mozilla [19:19]
ascii_field this is the output of a proggy that can take any cpp tree ? [19:19]
trinque yeah [19:20]
ascii_field what does mozilla have to do with it [19:20]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3619 @ 0.00055252 = 1.9996 BTC [-] [19:20]
trinque ascii_field: mozilla made dxr [19:20]
ascii_field ah [19:20]
trinque presumably to help work on their vast wad o cpp [19:20]
trinque [19:21]
ascii_field this is 1/10 the battle [19:21]
assbot DXR - MozillaWiki ... ( ) [19:21]
ascii_field still gotta do the plot [19:21]
trinque sure sure [19:21]
trinque I am not declaring victory [19:21]
trinque just a radar blip [19:21]
* ascii_field bbl [19:21]
* ascii_field has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [19:21]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41950 @ 0.00054687 = 22.9412 BTC [-] {3} [19:22]
fluffypony [19:26]
assbot ... ( ) [19:27]
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lobbesbot New post: Phuctored RSA Modulus, GCD=3 (Alex Sosa ; Xlex Sosa ; ) [19:34]
assbot ... ( ) [19:34]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00055259 = 10.1124 BTC [+] {2} [19:41]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53259 @ 0.00054563 = 29.0597 BTC [-] {3} [19:48]
trinque haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant [19:51]
trinque :D [19:52]
mats [19:53]
assbot Software optimization resources. C++ and assembly. Windows, Linux, BSD, Mac OS X ... ( ) [19:53]
trinque these earth humans need a ritual which tests for mindless imitation in children [19:53]
trinque the ritual should be arranged such that imitating someone else without reflecting on the outcome first results in death [19:53]
trinque better yet, rather than death, a life of moving heavy objects [19:56]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29450 @ 0.00054391 = 16.0181 BTC [-] [19:59]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22701 @ 0.00054391 = 12.3473 BTC [-] [20:08]
scoopbot_revived Most Serene Republic Begins Advertising Public Blockchain Seed Nodes [20:13]
pete_dushenski nice one bb [20:17]
shinohai I wish my node would sync to either IP, as it is I'm stuck atm. [20:17]
mod6 349k+ [20:19]
shinohai 363736 with 0 connections nau [20:20]
mod6 i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself. [20:21]
BingoBoingo ty pete_dushenski [20:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8449 @ 0.00054153 = 4.5754 BTC [-] [20:24]
shinohai I'll give that a shot mod6, been using -connect [20:25]
mod6 alright, as you wish. let me know how it goes. [20:25]
shinohai Of course [20:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35900 @ 0.00055278 = 19.8448 BTC [+] [20:31]
* BingoBoingo finally trying to recreate my OpenBSD 0.7.2-ish qt build. Must have lost the original sources that worked somewhere down the line [20:33]
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BingoBoingo Well, not really re-create. Just fucking up the version strings in the name of lulz [20:42]
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BingoBoingo !up devthedev [20:44]
* assbot gives voice to devthedev [20:44]
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shinohai It's always in the name of lulz BingoBoingo [20:44]
* assbot gives voice to funkenstein_ [20:45]
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BingoBoingo !up Duffer1 [20:51]
* assbot gives voice to Duffer1 [20:51]
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BingoBoingo !up btcdrak [20:52]
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ben_vulpes i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself. << i don't think he did [20:54]
ben_vulpes my stator's at 225753, btw [20:55]
shinohai I switched my config to addnode, got unstuck then stopped it [20:55]
* james` is now known as cosmo [20:56]
BingoBoingo 255903 on stator [20:57]
shinohai I made the sync fine until that orphaned block on the 4th [21:02]
shinohai [21:05]
assbot Why Greece should befriend its bitcoin foes | Fusion ... ( ) [21:05]
BingoBoingo shinohai: My stator testbed is lucky it is too slow to have been anywhere close in time to that having been an issue, though that is still an enduring issue. [21:07]
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shinohai I have a stator build working, just waiting on my pogo to get here first. Using the 0.5.3 RELEASE on my shell [21:08]
BingoBoingo My stator is just on an awfully underpowered AMD64 machine [21:11]
mod6 here's something I missed: [21:15]
* assbot removes voice from devthedev [21:15]
mod6 i'll have to see when i get there i guess. [21:17]
mats it doesn't look like bitcoin is ready for prime time [21:17]
shinohai Good find mod6, I hadn't got that far back yet [21:18]
BingoBoingo here's something I missed: << May have to increase locks limit (why it must be there idk) for reorg robustness [21:20]
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mod6 max_locks & max_objects were bumped from 10000 to 40000 in this patch: But yeah, perhaps it needs to go higher. I'll dig in when I get wedged. [21:23]
assbot ... ( ) [21:23]
* assbot removes voice from btcdrak [21:23]
mod6 for those who don't remember, we used to get stuck at block 252`450 before with only 10000 locks set [21:24]
shinohai Must have been before I discovered La Serenissima [21:24]
mod6 it was last december. [21:25]
BingoBoingo Yeah, it was necessary to keep up with 0.8 normal. May need a still bigger boost for reorgs though. [21:28]
assbot [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 268 @ 0.00406002 = 1.0881 BTC [-] {4} [21:35]
phf BingoBoingo: have you tried making static build on openbsd? i seem to recall you were running a bunch of openbsd boxes [21:37]
BingoBoingo But the whole max locks thing is a mess [21:37]
mod6 phf: i built on 5.6 but I can't seem to get mine to be be statically built :( [21:38]
BingoBoingo phf: No, not yet. On OpenBSD I'm running an 0.7.2 derivative with LibreSSL 2.0 just to see how it behaves. [21:38]
phf mod6: is that with the patch i posted to ml? [21:38]
mod6 it was from a patch, but not from the email you just sent in... [21:39]
phf BingoBoingo: that's a good idea, i decided to punt on it, because i don't fully understand the reasoning behind the whole 1.0.1g freeze [21:39]
BingoBoingo phf: i built on 5.6 but I can't seem to get mine to be be statically built :( << First thing to understand about OpenBSD is that it is a weird unix. Not as weird as Linux, but differently weird. [21:40]
phf mod6: nudge nudge wink wink [21:40]
mod6 phf: maybe you posted this to the channel? anyway, this is the one I used: [21:40]
assbot ... ( ) [21:40]
BingoBoingo phf: It sync'd and so far it hasn't forked outside of the ways other Bitcoins have [21:40]
mod6 ok, so I should just use your patches just posted then [21:40]
phf mod6: yes, though they are conceptually similar to the one from dpaste [21:41]
mod6 read your readme... so yeah, months and months ago I was able to build a dynamic bitcoind on openbsd, but that was the exact issue after statically linked: seg fault. [21:42]
mod6 lemme try this out :] [21:43]
phf cool! [21:43]
BingoBoingo In other news [21:46]
assbot How will Subway pitchman Jared Fogle weather FBI investigation? ... ( ) [21:46]
BingoBoingo ^ expect in channel soon? [21:46]
BingoBoingo Like Shrem? [21:48]
trinque lol [21:49]
BingoBoingo Or does he walk with Brock in YCombinator [21:49]
trinque why do all the chimos have a certain look about them? [21:49]
BingoBoingo Thur Genetics? [21:50]
trinque who knows [21:50]
trinque there's a sort of pudgy, sunken-eyed, pasty-white I invariably associate with "hide yo kids" [21:50]
BingoBoingo But still, that isn't the complete type. It's the entire shape of the face: very, very Anglo [21:52]
* funkenstein_ is loving the discussion of time in the logs [21:52]
trinque BingoBoingo: [21:55]
assbot ... ( ) [21:55]
BingoBoingo trinque: Looks just like it [21:55]
trinque heh [21:55]
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BingoBoingo !up Luke-Jr [21:57]
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williamdunne ;;later tell gabriel_laddel was checking my rates, out of interest what is my association with [21:59]
gribble The operation succeeded. [21:59]
williamdunne Morning all [22:00]
mod6 Buenos Dias [22:01]
* mod6 has to ramp up on espanol for c4 [22:01]
williamdunne I would also like to learn Spanish, on my to do list [22:03]
* williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising [22:04]
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mod6 i used to be fairly fluent 10 years ago, now. not so much lol. [22:04]
williamdunne I had compulsory German and French lessons for 4 years in state education. Went about as well as expected. My entire vocabulary in both languages is "Bonjour", "Guten Tag", "Ich habe ein gross hose schlange", and "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt", along with a few words of no use on their own [22:05]
mod6 haha, sounds familiar. [22:05]
trinque williamdunne: ich arbeit im krankenhaus [22:05]
trinque there, that about does it for my german [22:06]
williamdunne State education? [22:06]
trinque duolingo lol [22:06]
trinque took spanish in high school; I can understand more than I can say [22:06]
williamdunne I couldn't even update "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt" to make sense in my current state without the assistance from google translate. [22:07]
williamdunne In fairness, even in RO I could understand half the crap because its still latin [22:07]
williamdunne Reading French is even easier IMO [22:07]
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shinohai I speak fluent Taco Bell [22:08]
shinohai j/k [22:08]
* williamdunne notably did qualify for a non-state school scholarship at a language school, after passing the aptitude tests. Further highlighting the failure of state education [22:08]
trinque "puedo comprender mas que puedo hablar" ?? [22:09]
* trinque checks himself with google [22:09]
trinque google likes it I guess [22:10]
shinohai I'm ok with Spanish. Could probably carry on a convo though it has been a while/ [22:11]
trinque german I've yet to get past the myriad articles [22:12]
trinque near as I can tell, there is no logic to them [22:12]
shinohai I'm always impressed with how well Germans speak English [22:12]
trinque you just grow up knowing that "*der* Tisch" [22:13]
trinque shinohai: heh maybe it's german easy-mode [22:13]
shinohai Nearly every one I have met speaks far better English than half the Americans I know. [22:14]
trinque having merely dabbled in german, there seems to be a preciseness or specificity to it [22:14]
trinque all the articles for example [22:14]
trinque "this one out of the set" vs "this one" vs "that" ... so on [22:14]
asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu i'm pretty sure i... solved it! [22:14]
gribble The operation succeeded. [22:14]
trinque asciilifeform: time? [22:14]
asciilifeform it. [22:14]
asciilifeform doesn't help pogo [22:15]
* trinque sounds the horn [22:15]
asciilifeform the ~other~ time [22:15]
* shinohai passes a glass of his Absinthe to asciilifeform [22:15]
asciilifeform << that one [22:15]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 18:51:43; ascii_field: let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find. [22:15]
asciilifeform not sure how much good this'll do anyone. [22:15]
phf that would be second famous margin note, after fermat's [22:16]
asciilifeform phf has it [22:16]
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asciilifeform which is why before saying any more, i will have to model it. [22:16]
trinque fascinating [22:16]
asciilifeform other folks can perhaps work it out if i say that the solution is based on dynamic 'predator-prey' equilibrium [22:17]
asciilifeform the realization comes from the fact that you don't really need accurate time, just an oscillator that is reasonably independence of amplitude [22:18]
asciilifeform *independent [22:18]
asciilifeform that cannot be slowed or sped up at will by any given participant [22:18]
* asciilifeform off to eat [22:18]
phf lamport clocks? [22:20]
trinque << next war will start and end in a flash [22:23]
assbot 'Hackers' give orders to German missile battery - The Local ... ( ) [22:23]
mod6 phf: do you patches depend on anything besides stator? [22:25]
mod6 ( i patched in ascii's dump/eat block as well, but got a bunch of errors I didn't get last time ): [22:26]
assbot ... ( ) [22:26]
phf mod6: that's the last part of readme, you want to build with gmake instead of make (pkg_add gmake) [22:26]
phf ooh, wait [22:26]
phf i think that's the errors from environment variables not being set [22:26]
mod6 oh nevremind. [22:26]
mod6 i screwed up i don't have realpath installed. [22:27]
* assbot removes voice from Luke-Jr [22:27]
mod6 ok rebuilding [22:31]
trinque mod6: which openbsd package provides realpath? [22:35]
mod6 no idea. i just swapped that stuff out for the fullpath, but gernika reminded me that one can usese readlink -f [22:35]
mod6 *use [22:35]
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trinque ah k [22:39]
BingoBoingo lol hipsters [22:40]
assbot Police add insult to injury after mugging - Baltimore Sun ... ( ) [22:40]
* assbot gives voice to menahem [22:42]
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mircea_popescu << wouldja look at the icons of the current adolescent. [22:42]
assbot ... ( ) [22:42]
mircea_popescu fucking pizza delivery man ++ [22:42]
mircea_popescu i dunno there's a sadder indictment of the decaying west. [22:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform hm ? [22:43]
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mircea_popescu and since we're on painful imagery, [22:44]
assbot ... ( ) [22:44]
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BingoBoingo [22:46]
assbot Andrew Hamilton, "Race in the Early Films of D. W. Griffith" | Counter-Currents Publishing ... ( ) [22:46]
menahem omg what is that photo ? insert and expand ? [22:47]
BingoBoingo menahem: You must be new here [22:47]
menahem ha, fairly. mostly read. [22:48]
mircea_popescu in that photo is a mechanical pear [22:48]
mircea_popescu << basically holy water. [22:49]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 21:00:28; pete_dushenski: not cheap ! [22:49]
menahem ahh ok, used in the mouth! [22:49]
mircea_popescu << it meant to demonstrate bitcoin doesn't work if it doesn't work on the redditards' terms. it managed to demonstrate instead redditards don't matter, even when they pay for the voice. [22:50]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 21:02:02; trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate [22:50]
mircea_popescu which is why this place (ie, bitcoin) is so fucking beautiful. [22:50]
mircea_popescu also why it's so fucking disconcerting to the welfare mass. [22:50]
mircea_popescu they truely believe it is a natural truth that their existence is all that's needed. [22:50]
decimation < i've heard that the reason he lost so much weight at subway was because he was stalking some chick who worked there [22:51]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 00:42:05; BingoBoingo: In other news [22:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35907 @ 0.000557 = 20.0002 BTC [+] {2} [22:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76993 @ 0.00056793 = 43.7266 BTC [+] {4} [22:53]
mats thats the first positive outcome to stalking i've heard of [22:53]
mircea_popescu << because stupid and lazy. [22:53]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 21:05:13; ascii_field: i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1. [22:53]
mats lose a shitload of weight, gain eight digits in your bank [22:54]
mircea_popescu mats you know all the girls i knew for the first i dunno, decade of my life i got through stalking ? [22:54]
mats define stalking [22:54]
mats hiding in the bushes, tracking movements, masturbating to her shadowy figure in the shower? [22:55]
mircea_popescu well, the most famous and i guess exemplare case is, mp stops car, tells shadow : follow that girl. guy gets an address, mp gets a phone number, talks to puzzled woman. explains that he had her stalked, would she like to have a cup of coffee [22:55]
decimation asciilifeform: I'm not sure what you are thinking, but my idea is to use the 10 minute block time as a noisy oscillator [22:55]
mircea_popescu she says sure, she's going for a cup of coffee. i ask where, she says "tell your guy to find out" [22:55]
mircea_popescu mad scramble throughout town ensues. [22:55]
mircea_popescu i would like to assure the concerned public that no flower bouquets were involved in any of this at any point. [22:56]
BingoBoingo !b 8 [22:56]
assbot Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [22:56]
williamdunne Oh good, flowers really would have made the whole situation rather strange [22:56]
mircea_popescu williamdunne it's a reference. [22:57]
decimation pogo can keep time by comparing its clock to the block discovery interval, averaging over a long period [22:59]
mircea_popescu decimation and expect it to come to what, 9 ? [23:00]
mircea_popescu ;;bc,stats [23:00]
gribble Current Blocks: 364334 | Current Difficulty: 4.940201493122746E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 364895 | Next Difficulty In: 561 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 33 minutes, and 54 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [23:00]
mircea_popescu ;;calc 364334 / 6/ 24/365 [23:01]
gribble 6.93177321157 [23:01]
decimation it would take a few difficulty inervals [23:01]
mircea_popescu it would appear we are no less than a year into the future. [23:01]
decimation heh [23:01]
decimation what is the rate at which new blocks are found? [23:01]
decimation in seconds? [23:01]
mircea_popescu 600 [23:02]
mircea_popescu ideally. irl more like 530ish [23:02]
mircea_popescu << nope. exactly unrelated [23:02]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 21:14:04; jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps [23:02]
mircea_popescu in like utah or some shit [23:03]
mircea_popescu << this. [23:04]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 21:30:21; ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree. [23:04]
mircea_popescu jurov that's a pretty weird graph considering the gaps aren't even same size o.O [23:05]
williamdunne mircea_popescu: 530 is pretty ideal, no? Sign of difficulty growth [23:06]
decimation you could fit a curve instead of line over a given interval [23:07]
mircea_popescu well ideal in what sense ? it's very unideal for his idea of timekeeping, because it proves (what we already knew) : time is meaningless and political time conventional, and all sorts of nutty fashions can endure a long time. ie, 350k blocks in this case. [23:07]
funkenstein_ <-- i thought she was going to jump back into jupiter's head a few days ago.. off on her merry way again [23:07]
assbot Logged on 07-07-2015 19:54:23; decimation: maybe I should start watching venus too [23:07]
mircea_popescu decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel. [23:07]
decimation funkenstein_: lol [23:07]
williamdunne mircea_popescu: I guess. At the very least the cause of it is good though [23:07]
mircea_popescu or whatever actual respectable prize the nobel used to be [23:07]
decimation eh, it demands some modeling [23:08]
mircea_popescu noit a bad way to burn time, this assay. [23:08]
williamdunne I did a judging thing at teh loebner prize before. Was pretty lulzy [23:08]
funkenstein_ i've heard tell of a distributed clock that might meet your needs [23:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69900 @ 0.00057271 = 40.0324 BTC [+] {4} [23:08]
decimation heh I got your entendre [23:08]
funkenstein_ it's a prototype, the code might need some cleaning up [23:08]
decimation funkenstein_: what's that [23:08]
funkenstein_ some financial software or other ;) [23:09]
decimation funkenstein_: were you the one studying clock intervals in bitcoin [23:09]
funkenstein_ yes, i speak of bitcoin :) [23:10]
funkenstein_ the quantity the a miner needs to report is the time since the last difficulty change [23:11]
mircea_popescu listen shorty, you read the log ? [23:11]
funkenstein_ yes, enjoyed it.. sorry you are probably sick of this time talk already [23:11]
mircea_popescu wel lcause youre approaching it fresh [23:11]
funkenstein_ other than that quantity, the rest is offset [23:11]
mircea_popescu yes, magical offset in that you don't know who's lying. [23:12]
funkenstein_ genesis block tells you most of that offset [23:12]
mircea_popescu does not. looky here. block is 100, timestamp is 100, allowable max drift is 100. [23:12]
mircea_popescu block 101 arrives, at timestamp 150, advertising timestamp 101. [23:13]
mircea_popescu you set your timestamp to 101 [23:13]
mircea_popescu block 102 arrives, at timestamp 200, advertising timestamp 250. [23:13]
mircea_popescu you reject it and now you're forked. [23:13]
funkenstein_ the longest chain wins [23:13]
mircea_popescu no. [23:13]
mircea_popescu the longest ACCEPTABLE chain wins. [23:14]
funkenstein_ right right [23:14]
mircea_popescu kneejerk the dwarf wtf! [23:14]
funkenstein_ we can't know what procedure miners are using to set their own clocks [23:15]
mircea_popescu that'd be the problem. [23:15]
funkenstein_ it's basically a jury duty scenario, you found a block, do your best to tell us what time it is [23:15]
mircea_popescu that's not how trustless works. [23:15]
funkenstein_ well I think asciilifeform is formulating a more specific attack so that should be interesting [23:16]
ben_vulpes so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation. << and yet mircea_popescu had this done [23:16]
ben_vulpes for lulz as far as i can tell [23:16]
mircea_popescu for tests. [23:17]
mircea_popescu now if i ask dpb something about it, he can answer sensibly. [23:17]
ben_vulpes well clearly. just making a joke. [23:17]
ben_vulpes now, as you say, interested parties could find a rate for diddled pogos. [23:18]
ben_vulpes and on top of that, his error rate cracking them open is probably zero. small sample size, but... [23:18]
mircea_popescu no, it's not. he said some bits got broken [23:19]
ben_vulpes ah, my mistake [23:19]
ben_vulpes !up Vexual [23:19]
* assbot gives voice to Vexual [23:19]
mircea_popescu << bwhahaah [23:21]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 00:56:00; williamdunne: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel was checking my rates, out of interest what is my association with [23:21]
mircea_popescu the .. .baby face ? [23:21]
williamdunne Furry definitely isn't something I'd label myself with [23:21]
danielpbarron it's kinda tricky getting them open. I had to scuff up a credit card and yeah some of the inner clips got cracked [23:22]
danielpbarron and it took about an hour to do 12 of them [23:22]
williamdunne I might be into some things, but anthropomorphic animals aren't one of those things [23:22]
asciilifeform << at the risk of 'fleischmanning', i will say a little about the concept even though i am not yet done working it out [23:22]
assbot Logged on 08-07-2015 02:03:34; mircea_popescu: decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel. [23:22]
asciilifeform won't be earning any 'nobels', there is no way in heaven or hell that it could be retrofitted to bitcoin proper [23:23]
* joecool (~joecool@no-sources/joecool) has joined #bitcoin-assets [23:23]
mircea_popescu take yer time [23:23]
* asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's advice, hushes [23:24]
mircea_popescu ands now i shall leave you with while i go make moar coarse frangible threads [23:27]
assbot ... ( ) [23:27]
menahem ahh shit thats cray. :D [23:27]
* devthedev has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [23:30]
* yhwh_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [23:33]
BingoBoingo [23:38]
mod6 phf: hey it worked! sync'ing now... [23:38]
assbot Tinder date woman finds novel way to hit back at man who told her she was too fat to fancy - Mirror Online ... ( ) [23:38]
assbot ... ( ) [23:38]
funkenstein_ mod6, nice! [23:39]
mod6 yes, this is fantastic really. [23:40]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: could he have been much nicer about it? [23:42]
BingoBoingo williamdunne: Not at all, bitch needs to stop being a Ham. [23:42]
asciilifeform << not related either to my idea or to pogo. mechanism used in one crackpot altcoin to dispense with need for absolute clock [23:42]
assbot algorithms - How does the Kimoto Gravity Well regulate difficulty? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange ... ( ) [23:42]
asciilifeform (just need to time a block interval) [23:43]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: Tinder causes this issue, experienced it in RO [23:43]
BingoBoingo Really [23:44]
williamdunne Aye, which was remarkable really. Didn't see any others. She was very nice and I still talk to her, but headshots and angles are good at lying [23:44]
asciilifeform << critic [23:44]
assbot Development update | Vertcoin Developers Blog ... ( ) [23:44]
asciilifeform from ~other~ crackpot alt. [23:45]
* asciilifeform changes gloves, gas mask filter [23:45]
funkenstein_ seemingly a PID controller would be best for difficulty adjustment, however simplicity is a stronger argument [23:47]
asciilifeform this, again, isn't even related to what i was thinking of. but encountered by accident. [23:47]
BingoBoingo * asciilifeform changes gloves, gas mask filter << Shouldn't you step away from the cesium dust first? [23:47]
* asciilifeform has not been keeping track of crackpot 'coins' since 'litecoin' [23:48]
funkenstein_ speaking thereof: [23:48]
assbot The current spam attack on Bitcoin is not economically feasible on Litecoin : Bitcoin ... ( ) [23:48]
BingoBoingo williamdunne: Here the pic/reality discrepancy is so bad in a lot of cases it is like a fat person killed a normal with similar hair and started living their life. [23:49]
* assbot removes voice from Vexual [23:50]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: Yeah, she was definitely the same person. Only the body was not what the angles would have you believe [23:50]
williamdunne Don't believe she was wearing someone else's face either [23:50]
asciilifeform >> who typically gets these ? [23:50]
assbot Bitcoin Address 162TRPRZvdgLVNksMoMyGJsYBfYtB4Q8tM ... ( ) [23:50]
williamdunne funkenstein_: In his defence, the litecoin solution actually seemed like a pretty good way to handle it [23:51]
BingoBoingo I mean seriously here, the faces look different. Literally have to be using other people's pictures. [23:51]
asciilifeform i mean, why has nobody picked it up [23:51]
asciilifeform 0.00541 is good money [23:51]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: I don't understand how they don't think "oh, maybe they'll be confused when they see me in person?" [23:51]
BingoBoingo williamdunne: hollywood gave them broken expectations. The moral they complain about is "look good get laid" when they take the worse insane moral of "the protagonist is witty and spechial" [23:54]
williamdunne !b 5 [23:54]
assbot Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [23:54]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: like anything else that works even though 'shouldn't', this works [23:54]
williamdunne BingoBoingo: Are you suggesting that our tumblrina protagonist isn't witty, or special like the most specialist of snowflakes [23:55]
* DanielBTC has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [23:57]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: except none of that crud is operative, it works from an elementary 'pigeonhole theorem' - many cocks, few parking spots [23:58]
williamdunne Drinking law in the UK is even more lax than I had realized [23:58]
williamdunne [23:58]
assbot Alcohol and young people - GOV.UK ... ( ) [23:58]
BingoBoingo No, example. Drinking at the bar with some friends. One fire up "Tinder" girl with nice pictures takes a cab across the mississippi river and walk into the bar. Diameter more than half her height. Recognizes friend, friend has no idea who she is. [23:59]
Category: Logs
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