Forum logs for 30 Nov 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
trinque: !!deed http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/BkLhL/?raw=true [00:37]
deedbot: accepted: 1 [00:38]
mats: looks like this is mentioned in the tor ml already [01:07]
BingoBoingo: lol http://qntra.net/2016/11/18-year-old-somali-child-killed-by-police-at-the-ohio-state-university/#comment-80156 [01:15]
BingoBoingo: 3 comments [01:18]
trinque: ahaha wd [01:20]
* trinque would love to know where these people came from [01:22]
BingoBoingo: ALmost certainly reddit [01:22]
trinque: "if'n u don't like it, u kin geeedddout" [01:22]
BingoBoingo: Seriously not a single attempt to read any of the linked content to develop context on the venue [01:25]
asciilifeform: !~ later tell mircea_popescu http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/rC2tS/?raw=true [01:25]
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [01:25]
trinque: BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/11/18-year-old-somali-child-killed-by-police-at-the-ohio-state-university/#comment-80158 << lel [01:30]
trinque: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/11/29/german-domestic-intelligence-officer-arrested-plotting-islamic-terror-attack/ << in other beat'em join'em conundrums [01:34]
BingoBoingo: lol [01:36]
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the best part of light satire is trolling the people who in their hearts want to believe with us but can't because idiot redditards. [01:40]
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/bundle-441235.txt [04:21]
jurov: mod6: looks like mailman crashed, after restarting it delivered fine. Last thing logged was: [06:09]
jurov: Nov 30 04:40:29 2016 (22747) Hostile listname: btc-dev' [06:09]
jurov: interdasting [06:09]
mircea_popescu: mailman rose up in arms against the very list it was supposed to return ?! [08:04]
mircea_popescu: lol the butthurt re that qntra is pretty good. [09:03]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EE6440B35451CC5447607C04C7DEA4AB3D37F134168ABC3ABE6B9361A5F581DD << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1585...2717 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '207.234.129.246 (ssh-rsa key from 207.234.129.246 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (207-234-129-246.ptr.primarydns.com. US FL) [09:04]
mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> Seriously not a single attempt to read any of the linked content to develop context on the venue << i dunno dood, "the serene republic of somalia" etc. they be trynna. [09:05]
mircea_popescu: and in other news us T bonds are getting massacred. [09:09]
mircea_popescu: the 10year is up 7.0 base points no less! [09:10]
BingoBoingo: Inflation is coming [09:12]
mircea_popescu: basically now that obama's out, the saudis finally agreed to cut the flood oil jumped like 10% after they announced. [09:13]
mircea_popescu: (iran, the us's only apparently remaining ally in the world, decided not to participate) [09:14]
mircea_popescu: srsly, the world is now a us-iran partnership trying to stand up to a russian-turkey alliance while a very horny europe is drooling cunt juice on one side and a rather geeky china is holding its distance on the other side. [09:15]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo not just inflation. yields are higher and growing rapidly the dollar is strengthening and stocks are going up. this is the classical desperation run-up to black tuesday. [09:17]
BingoBoingo: Aha [09:17]
mircea_popescu: whatever his plans, desires, choices whatever, it seems absolutely certain trump will have a major depression on his hands to the tune of "70% of this country's wealth evaporated overnight wut do ?!?!" [09:17]
BingoBoingo: Blame Obama and CLinton! [09:18]
mircea_popescu: the odds of the syrian situation blowing up into actual war ru+tk vs us+iran (but without nato) are actually non-trivial by now. [09:19]
mircea_popescu: to be perfectly fair : the dems tried to set up bush the bomb in exactly the same manner in 2000 and then the democrat-alligned osama set bush the bomb fo reals. [09:23]
mircea_popescu: so it is vaguely possible hillary&friends actually have some sarin in say new york subway, not just at the bases of their jenissary in syria. [09:24]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/opec-agrees-to-cut-output/ << Qntra - OPEC Agrees To Cut Output [09:27]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo prolly also link the log. [09:27]
BingoBoingo: Will do [09:28]
mircea_popescu: anyway, should be interesting if italy votes to exit. [09:28]
mircea_popescu: (dec 4th - they're even advertising it here.) [09:29]
mircea_popescu: ahahah warren called mnuchin the forrest gump of the financial crisis. [09:32]
mircea_popescu: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-erdogan-idUSKBN13P136 << o wait. lol. [09:36]
asciilifeform: 'Philip Morris CEO looks towards phasing out cigarettes: BBC' << lel [09:46]
asciilifeform: 'The company's IQOS smokeless cigarette, which is already on sale in over a dozen markets including Japan, Switzerland and Italy, heats tobacco enough to produce a vapor without burning it. The company believes that makes it much less harmful than cigarettes.' << i thought this died in 1970s..? [09:47]
jurov: nope, e-cigs are a thing here [10:03]
jurov: though they do make smoke, but smells good, unlike classical cigs [10:04]
BingoBoingo: jurov: Different sort of monster http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117913 [10:10]
BingoBoingo: Last major incarnation of this was stick full of tobacco where small charcoal disk burned for maximum carbon monoxide exposure [10:11]
jurov: ever seen water pipe? it uses charcoal puck, too. and CO isn't very well absorbed by water (unlike CO2) [10:21]
jurov: i'd prefer that all way than burning sugar, menthol and zillion other additives they put to classical cigs [10:22]
jurov: so, it all looks to me one part of tobacco industry FUDdind an other one [10:23]
jurov: *FUDding [10:23]
asciilifeform: jurov: the lulzy bit is that the 'heated tobacco' thing was a 1970s (and possibly prior) crackpottery [10:30]
asciilifeform: jurov: 'e-cig' does not (unless broke down and battery on fire...) emit smoke, it sputters out propylene glycol (theatrical smoke) [10:31]
BingoBoingo: jurov: the linked eclipse thing is cigarette shaped fiberglass reinforced paper tube tipped with charcoal. Is a lulzy thing best not stuck in mouth. [10:31]
asciilifeform: same thing as in asthmatic inhaler device. [10:31]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aha, linked item is different, it seems to still have fuel/fire in it [10:31]
* jurov not an expert [10:32]
* asciilifeform also not an expert, but used to work with a d00d who was a serious aficionado [10:32]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EE6440B35451CC5447607C04C7DEA4AB3D37F134168ABC3ABE6B9361A5F581DD << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1386...2457 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '207.234.129.246 (ssh-rsa key from 207.234.129.246 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (207-234-129-246.ptr.primarydns.com. US FL) [10:55]
mircea_popescu: anything but "go back to pure tobacco" huh. [11:50]
mircea_popescu: ANYTHING but that [11:50]
mircea_popescu: re water pipe - the liquid is infrequently changed, certainly not often enough to maintain co2 solvency [11:52]
asciilifeform: tobacco, like 'generic pharma', is 'unamerican', can't sell generic leaf that grows on half planet, must sell INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY!11111 [11:57]
asciilifeform: (leaf + proprietary crapolade) [11:57]
jurov: i have read that tobacco must be dried slowly (like, a month) otherwise it retains more sugar which burns nastily [12:00]
jurov: such slow process is anathema to anything industrial [12:01]
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why. shipping for isntance takes 3mo + and apparently they prefer it that way. [12:03]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the idiots at the guardian made a begging banner which has an X that is not connected to anything, just drawn on the banner itself. [12:45]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile according to reddit, theguardian.com is a respectable source and qntra.net is the spamsite. because totally. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: all this to see george monbiot try his best to sell the "our fake citizens groups are for real and everything else is fake" line. [12:47]
asciilifeform: in other 'news', MOTHERFUCKER, curl STRIPS NEWLINES by default wtf [13:01]
mircea_popescu: it does ? [13:01]
* asciilifeform was convinced that we had this thread [13:01]
asciilifeform: cat clearsigned_thing.txt | curl -H "Content-type: text/plain" --d @- http://machine [13:02]
asciilifeform: results in soup [13:02]
asciilifeform: cat clearsigned_thing.txt | curl -H "Content-type: text/plain" --data-binary @- http://machine [13:02]
asciilifeform: worx. [13:02]
mircea_popescu: likely the fault of machine [13:02]
asciilifeform: nope. [13:03]
mircea_popescu: well,we had this thread (iirc you brought it up), came out it was fault of machine. [13:03]
asciilifeform: did we.. [13:03]
asciilifeform: ? [13:03]
mircea_popescu: yeah most recently re wotpaste. [13:03]
asciilifeform: curl 7.30.0 really does seem to munge newlines unless 'binary' mode. [13:05]
mircea_popescu: hm. [13:05]
shinohai: I've used --data-raw to good effect and didn't get newlines stripped [13:10]
mircea_popescu: may be a matter of curl version also [13:28]
mod6: jurov: thanks for pushing that one through and taking care of mailman. [14:30]
asciilifeform: !!up yalehasaquestion [14:43]
deedbot: yalehasaquestion voiced for 30 minutes. [14:43]
yalehasaquestion: hey, I'd like to know, I've been running a listening node, and I added 46.166.165.30 as a peer -- but I don't look like I'm connected to it [14:43]
asciilifeform: yalehasaquestion: that's my node. where are you connecting from. [14:44]
asciilifeform: ? [14:44]
yalehasaquestion: Toronto, ON - 129.33.193.187 [14:44]
asciilifeform: stay tuned [14:45]
yalehasaquestion: would it have something to do with the fact that I'm running core 0.13.1? [14:46]
asciilifeform: you aren't on the banhammer list [14:46]
asciilifeform: HOWEVER [14:46]
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/wFTLy/?raw=true [14:46]
asciilifeform: all of asciilifeform's nodes are equipped with Malleus MikeHearnificarum [14:46]
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded. [14:46]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/malleus_mikehearnificarum [14:46]
yalehasaquestion: I am interested in understanding what that is, however I'm not much of an expert on such things [14:47]
asciilifeform: yalehasaquestion: i'll check the logs for your node, brb [14:47]
yalehasaquestion: nice patch haha [14:48]
trinque: yalehasaquestion: on another note, why are you running "core 0.13.1" ? [14:49]
trinque: yet inquiring here [14:49]
* shinohai was about to ask the same question. [14:49]
yalehasaquestion: I am curious about your community, and I'm learning [14:49]
trinque: fair nuff [14:50]
yalehasaquestion: and it is your node -- I mean, I could be doing this wrong :) [14:50]
asciilifeform: yalehasaquestion: oddly enough, no record of any connections from your ip [14:50]
shinohai: Best way to learn is to go to http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html and stand up your own trb node. [14:50]
trinque: ^ [14:50]
yalehasaquestion: I am trying to understand your views on segwit [14:51]
yalehasaquestion: I haven't seen enough to really understand [14:51]
asciilifeform: it may be the case that 'core 0.13.1' (which is an imposter pseudo-bitcoin client, see below) refuses to speak with trb. [14:51]
asciilifeform: !#s prb [14:51]
a111: 181 results for "prb", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=prb [14:51]
asciilifeform: !#s segwit [14:52]
a111: 62 results for "segwit", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=segwit [14:52]
asciilifeform: yalehasaquestion ^ you will get the best mileage from reading the chan logs [14:52]
asciilifeform: and using the search box. [14:52]
trinque: yalehasaquestion: various creatures of ill repute have been bolting all kinds of insane shit to the codebase formerly known as bitcoin for years now [14:53]
asciilifeform: yalehasaquestion: trb ( therealbitcoin.org ) is the ~actual~ bitcoin client. approximately as-it-was in 2012, with minor cleanups. [14:54]
yalehasaquestion: am I correct that segwit will be backwards compatible? [14:55]
trinque: this is not a general Q&A [14:55]
yalehasaquestion: okay. [14:55]
asciilifeform: trinque: humour the n00b [14:56]
asciilifeform: yalehasaquestion: answer is no, it is disinfo. [14:56]
asciilifeform: it is (the umpteenth) attempt to break bitcoin. [14:56]
asciilifeform: by the usual suspects. [14:56]
trinque: !#s hearn [14:57]
a111: 468 results for "hearn", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=hearn [14:57]
trinque: !#s gavin [14:57]
a111: 1134 results for "gavin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gavin [14:57]
* trinque is humoring, yet n00b must be encouraged to start at the beginning [14:57]
yalehasaquestion: yes, I guess I do. [14:58]
yalehasaquestion: well thanks gents [14:58]
asciilifeform: np. [14:58]
asciilifeform: please consider reading the chan logs, yalehasaquestion . [14:58]
trinque: for six months. [15:01]
jurov: asciilifeform: iirc anything past 0.10.x won't speak with trb [15:13]
asciilifeform: jurov: i must admit that it has been eons since i set up a prb, and the last one i tested was iirc 0.8.something (which worked with trb) [15:13]
jurov: i remember 0.11 flatly refused [15:14]
jurov: synced with 0.10.4 [15:14]
asciilifeform: i wouldn't put it past the imbeciles to try to split the net via node diddling alone. [15:14]
asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-Gq9ijmFY << in other lulz. [15:18]
asciilifeform: 'Watch Man Effortlessly Grab Bucket of Gold Worth $1.6M From Open Truck' [15:18]
asciilifeform: ( tastes great with the old 'costs of guarding gold' and 'misalignment of incentives of guard and master' threads ) [15:19]
asciilifeform: ( 'stalin's' algorithm of guarding gold, i.e. 'if it is lost, shoot everyone who might have sold the coordinates of the convoy' doesn't necessarily work either, because somewhere high enough in the chain there is usually someone who is 1) unshootable + 2) knows the coords ) [15:22]
asciilifeform: this is really in re the old 'bitcoin at the nsa' thread but i've misplaced the date. [15:22]
mircea_popescu: i think jurov has it. [15:45]
mircea_popescu: something something optimized something something whatever. [15:45]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/AIEmq << in other 'optimizations' . [15:53]
mircea_popescu: o hey, trilema payments for "linux news" ? [15:54]
asciilifeform: that part is iirc old noose [15:55]
asciilifeform: as is the subj, actually, shitgnomes are pretty close to breaking emacs [15:55]
mircea_popescu: o hey, so in the end vi wins ? [15:55]
asciilifeform: magnetized needle wins. [15:55]
asciilifeform: linked piece is lulzy on account of the idiot 'solution' picked on the victim end, 'That solution comes in the form of the "portable dumper" patch from Daniel Colascione. This patch is not small it adds over 4,500 lines of code to Emacs and it is not yet complete...' [15:57]
asciilifeform: instead of 'find the poetterings and impale' [15:57]
mircea_popescu: actually from what i can grok from that piece, the proposed solution (dump unexec, move on to saving elisp stack) is actually an improv meent [15:57]
asciilifeform: theoretically. [15:58]
mircea_popescu: well, from a system design perspective. it makes 0 sense for emacs to actually save c machine state. [15:58]
mircea_popescu: it also makes 0 sense for it to be a c piece of code, but that's a discussion for another time [15:58]
asciilifeform: emacs, in case anyone forgot, is made of 2 pieces - a megatonne bucked of crud written in 1970-era shitlisp, and an interpreter (yes) thereof [16:00]
asciilifeform: the latter is a native binary for whatever box the thing is running on. [16:00]
mircea_popescu: "The number of people aboard who can matter-of-factly hack the Emacs internals on the C level is consistently going down, and is already so small they can be counted on one hand. We must make Emacs depend less on people from this small and diminishing group, if we want the development pace increased or even kept at its current level." << this is a very solid point. [16:00]
asciilifeform: *bucket [16:00]
mircea_popescu: seems evident the correct solution is to get that proper lisp bootstrap i was discussing with phf and then re-write emacs in it. [16:00]
mircea_popescu: really c has no business in any of it. [16:01]
asciilifeform: has no business anywhere, really. [16:01]
asciilifeform: but there is also a 3rd piece in emacs [16:01]
mircea_popescu: "elisp" is in no better situation ftr. [16:01]
asciilifeform: which in fact is the reason anyone even uses it: 30 years of elisp extensions. [16:01]
asciilifeform: which rely on bug-for-bug compatibility with the morass. [16:01]
mircea_popescu: very much the python problem. [16:01]
mircea_popescu: anyway. like it or not - it's time for a newmacs. [16:02]
asciilifeform: it is, laugh or cry, an actual problem, and imho the reason climacs was stillborn [16:02]
asciilifeform: because at the end of the day, when choosing between '30 yrs of muscle memory' and 'MAYBE new emacs 30 yrs from now' everyone picked the former. [16:02]
asciilifeform: the visigoths will write newmacs. [16:03]
mircea_popescu: aha. [16:03]
mircea_popescu: muscle memory is the thinking man's worst enemy not least of all because it tends to win. [16:03]
asciilifeform: it is (and mthread / davout are invited to correct me , i am an armchair admiral ) as i understand, the reason why airplane today still has rudder pedals. [16:04]
asciilifeform: i have here a b00k on piloting circa 1940, and already then author insists that rudder pedals are obsolete and have killed a thousand men [16:04]
asciilifeform: ( rudder can and many times has been mechanically-linked to ailerons ) [16:04]
asciilifeform: and in a machine with such linkage, corkscrew is almost impossible. [16:05]
asciilifeform: but men expect pedals. and so there they are. [16:05]
asciilifeform: *mthreat [16:05]
asciilifeform: re elisp, imho the 'apocalyptic' scale of the problem is overblown, if every d00d were to rewrite the few 100 of elisp that he actually ~uses~, in climacs, or whereever, job would be done in a week. [16:12]
mircea_popescu: in principle this should be automatable tro a huge degree [16:12]
mircea_popescu: reducing the problem to "if every dude ran this script and then picked multiple-choice options 5 times" [16:12]
asciilifeform: in practice automassaged code is junk. [16:12]
asciilifeform: because abstractions are not portable. [16:12]
asciilifeform: ( ever use a fortran to c converter ?? ) [16:12]
ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-30-nov-2016#2200846 << word [16:13]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:12 asciilifeform: re elisp, imho the 'apocalyptic' scale of the problem is overblown, if every d00d were to rewrite the few 100 of elisp that he actually ~uses~, in climacs, or whereever, job would be done in a week. [16:13]
ben_vulpes: betcha that's exactly what gabriel_laddel did [16:13]
ben_vulpes: does [16:13]
asciilifeform: i currently have nfi what, if anything, he did other than bum around. [16:13]
asciilifeform: and fight with other bums over bag of pennies [16:14]
trinque: is climacs usable to this degree? [16:15]
asciilifeform: d00d suffers from the traditional disease of the 19yo 'night h4ck3r' , crippling tunnel vision [16:15]
trinque: I keep hoping for a g_l writeup on the subj, but do not see a blog anywhere [16:15]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, he's very reluctant to discipline [16:16]
asciilifeform: no blog, no postbox... [16:16]
asciilifeform: no pubkey. [16:16]
asciilifeform: the man refuses to... exist [16:16]
asciilifeform: ( how am i to reason about 'his' code, when none of it is signed, and there is naught to sign it with ..? ) [16:17]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [16:18]
asciilifeform: i've wondered if he doesn't have a secret and dire problem with dope or similar. [16:22]
trinque: there was a "10 cans of soda" thread [16:22]
asciilifeform: iirc he lives in those lands where dopes are plentiful and cheap. [16:22]
mircea_popescu: all lands are those lands. [16:23]
asciilifeform: some > than others. [16:23]
trinque: at any rate, if I were to invest time in climacs, that is time stolen from learning osdev to put a lisp interpreter on iron, which is time stolen from learning to fab silicon in a garage, which is time stolen from ... [16:25]
trinque: call it the alf-dilemma. [16:26]
trinque: recursive even! [16:26]
phf: breaks my heart all that's been done to emacs. it used to have a strong culture of backwards compatibility. large packages would have compat files compat-19.el, compat-20.el, etc. where's now only latest and greatest work. used to be very non-dwim, now every single package insist on some "smart input" dwimy interaction mode. but all this complexity is broken, things clash and interact with each other in all kinds of funny ways [16:39]
phf: i've been low-key reviving cmucl's hemlock, can't use portable hemlock nor climacs for that matter, because neither have terminal versions. needless to say the process is slow and painful. like right now i'm trying to figure out why scrolling the buffer is slow slow you can see each individual line redrawing. also arrow keys don't work [16:46]
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574893 << fwiw mit-scheme's editor edwin has an elisp emulation layer, that reportedly can run gnus of some vintage. when i heard about climacs from beach i actually though he was going to do an elisp translator too. one option might be to pickup edwin, but that's an exercise for someone else entirely [16:50]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:02 asciilifeform: it is, laugh or cry, an actual problem, and imho the reason climacs was stillborn [16:50]
trinque: I'll be clinging to a frozen emacs version and frozen pile of elisp til valhalla. [16:56]
trinque: seems this runs the risk of continuously being a refugee. "they broke my emacs, so I left for hemlock/climacs/etc, then they broke my X, then they broke my ..." [16:57]
trinque: and of course they *will* [16:57]
phf: well, we've already established that running everything on 2005 thinkpads is one viable option, but that's until supplies last [17:03]
phf: *while [17:03]
* shinohai is still trying to source a nice 2005 thinkpad [17:04]
trinque: phf: dunno that I'm making an argument for anything *else* either [17:09]
trinque: though a topic I've been thinking upon a lot is, trigger warnings to asciilifeform, mitigations [17:09]
trinque: though hardware ones, and not the kind normally meant [17:10]
trinque: his serial diode concept being a good example [17:10]
trinque: I've thought having a hardware parser/filter on a serial line where only certain bits can possibly flow over, and only in certain order, would compliment it. [17:13]
phf: pray, mr. babbage [17:15]
asciilifeform: ^ [17:17]
asciilifeform: i'd be curious to hear what trinque had in mind tho. [17:17]
asciilifeform: 'diode' is ancient idea, and imho quite self-explanatory, it's a 1way valve, bits go --> but not <-- . [17:17]
asciilifeform: anything more complicated / stateful tends to be called 'firewall', and also to suck. [17:18]
trinque: "diode" is just cutting wire [17:19]
trinque: and something quite stupid and forth-y could handle parsing a rudimentary set of possible statements to a db which eats from one serial port, shits to another [17:20]
asciilifeform: there are variations on the theme, involving, e.g., optocouplers, but yes. [17:20]
asciilifeform: trinque will like 'p'. [17:20]
phf: or bpf [17:21]
asciilifeform: phf: do you happen to know off the top of your head , what is the mass of bpf ? [17:22]
asciilifeform: because i noticed interesting thing, supposedly 'simple' things will have a border beyond which the complexity explodes for 'no reason' , as per the 'cat' thread from 2 yrs ago [17:22]
phf: i don't know. it has a whitepaper though [17:25]
phf: http://www.tcpdump.org/papers/bpf-usenix93.pdf [17:25]
asciilifeform: bad sign. [17:25]
phf: well, it's a 93 whitepaper :) [17:25]
asciilifeform: at any rate, i can hardly imagine that ~current~ ver of ~anything, even 'cat', is below 10,001 line.. [17:25]
asciilifeform: gotta support TARDICODE [17:25]
asciilifeform: and zimbabwe locale [17:25]
asciilifeform: and and and and [17:25]
asciilifeform: EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHS [17:26]
asciilifeform: etc. [17:26]
phf: cat ought to be 8-bit clean, i suspect most of the bloat will come from gnu attempting all kinds of optimization. it probably optionally mmaps cat foo, etc. [17:26]
asciilifeform: and properly-gendered-neutered comments. [17:26]
asciilifeform: phf: cat is afaik 8bit clean nowhere. [17:26]
asciilifeform: (certainly not on my gentoo boxes) [17:27]
trinque: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/bin/cat/cat.c [17:28]
phf: well, i only have plan9 cat on my box and it's trully tiny, but then it's plan9 (just does read/write to buf[8192]) [17:28]
asciilifeform: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/bin/cat/cat.c?rev=1.26&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup << what an abortion ! [17:29]
asciilifeform: why, for instance, does 'cook_buf' exist?!!!! [17:29]
asciilifeform: if (ch == '\n') { [17:29]
asciilifeform: if (eflag && putchar('$') == EOF) [17:29]
asciilifeform: break [17:29]
asciilifeform: ... [17:29]
asciilifeform: does that look like 8bit clean to you, phf ? [17:29]
asciilifeform: why does 'cat' CARE WHAT IS IN THE MOTHERFUCKING PIPE omfg [17:30]
asciilifeform: who asked it ?!!! [17:30]
phf: i've no idea what that cook_buf is supposed to do [17:31]
asciilifeform: i can see in five seconds of looking, that it LOOKS at the chars !! [17:31]
asciilifeform: why!! [17:31]
asciilifeform: what possible business does it have doing so. [17:31]
trinque: https://gist.github.com/pete/665971 << kinda neat [17:31]
asciilifeform: trinque: ty, that's the logz link i wanted to put in this thread. [17:31]
trinque: plan9 one is least offensive for sure [17:32]
trinque: phf: what do you run plan9 userland on? [17:32]
asciilifeform: it is the correct one. [17:32]
phf: trinque: i very rarely explicitly run it, it's just there for when i want to read some c code. i sometimes gauge tool sanity by trying to do the same thing with plan9 tools. anyway it's plan9port running on mac 10.9.5 [17:34]
asciilifeform: http://plan9.bell-labs.com << how long has this been dead [17:35]
phf: (it also has a nifty set of astro tools, that i use to chart the skys from time to time, because it's really easy to use and i don't know any better) [17:35]
asciilifeform: and lol, NOKIA bell labs?! [17:35]
asciilifeform: soooo lucent bought by nokia, and the latter now by microshit, which now owns the bones of bell labs. [17:35]
asciilifeform: apparently. [17:35]
phf: april 15, 2015 huh [17:36]
trinque: they got it a .io for the better to hackernews you with [17:36]
trinque: http://9p.io [17:36]
phf: a graveyard [17:37]
asciilifeform: plan9port-20140306.tgz source tree as of 2014-03-06 Mar 6, 2014 51.99MB [17:38]
asciilifeform: pretty heavy if you ask me. [17:38]
asciilifeform: can't speak for others, but i very much do not think i will produce a 52MB tgz of source with own hands before dead. [17:38]
phf: lol you find flaws with ~everything~. it's utf-8 heavy, no reason to even look :p [17:39]
asciilifeform: something like macsyma, which tried to encompass all of undergrad maths and some beyond, was what, 2MB zipped. [17:40]
asciilifeform: obesity is not per se damning but i'd really love to know wtf there is justifiably 52 zipped MB of , in there. [17:42]
phf: probably mercurial tree [17:42]
asciilifeform: ugh [17:42]
asciilifeform: i knew it -- liquishit. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574940 << not that viable. couldn't get planescape torment to run. [17:44]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:03 phf: well, we've already established that running everything on 2005 thinkpads is one viable option, but that's until supplies last [17:44]
asciilifeform: phf: you were right, thing is ~117M unpacked, 53 of which is .hg idiocy. [17:46]
asciilifeform: and 28M : ... guess it ... [17:46]
asciilifeform: fonts. [17:46]
phf: oh that makes sense, they use bitmap fonts [17:47]
asciilifeform: 8.9M plan9port/postscript/font << apparently not only. [17:47]
phf: i think that's a separate set for their own postscript implementation [17:48]
mircea_popescu: brother. [17:48]
asciilifeform: 13M plan9port/font/shinonome <<< i misread this as 'shitgnome' when it scrolled by and did a double take [17:48]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574985 << cook the buffer. evidently! [17:52]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:31 phf: i've no idea what that cook_buf is supposed to do [17:52]
trinque: in reading the source, the bsd folks crapped a bunch of things that should be in a sed-like into cat. [17:52]
trinque: because reasons. [17:52]
asciilifeform: because children who should have fallen into the lake and drowned. [17:53]
asciilifeform: but did not, and grew up to program computer. [17:53]
mircea_popescu: so computer fell in a lake and drowned. [17:53]
asciilifeform: aha. [17:54]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574998 << funny how the us dept of whatever "private company" is the buyer of last resort for all these. [17:56]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:35 asciilifeform: soooo lucent bought by nokia, and the latter now by microshit, which now owns the bones of bell labs. [17:56]
asciilifeform: noshit [17:56]
asciilifeform: though afaik 'bones of bell labs' is a small prize. [17:57]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu probably could have bought it , and not even have to sell one mig. [17:57]
asciilifeform: ('why' is separate q) [17:57]
mircea_popescu: the undigested corn nibblets in used toilet are no sort of prize whatsoever except for bacteria. [17:57]
asciilifeform: and i did think that these niblets had already gone through many an arse and had 0 way to do [17:58]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575009 << i was gonna say, "fonts", but then you found on your own. [17:58]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:42 asciilifeform: obesity is not per se damning but i'd really love to know wtf there is justifiably 52 zipped MB of , in there. [17:58]
mircea_popescu: i learned a lot about fonts in my recent foray. [17:58]
mircea_popescu: major nighthole, the fonts. [17:59]
asciilifeform: having once attempted a font render engine, asciilifeform knows a bit also. [17:59]
phf: metafont fits in head [17:59]
mircea_popescu: phf even limiting the matter to ttfs (seriously, postcript is a whole extra layer of crazy) one quickly discovers some very serious conceptual problems. i don't even mean from a technological pov. [18:00]
phf: now the question of whether or not designing a font language that simulates movement of calligraphic brushstrokes is a good idea.. [18:00]
asciilifeform: iirc truetype is a much heavier and more malodorous latrine than postscript [18:00]
asciilifeform: (postscript is, approximately, a hypertrophied forth) [18:01]
mircea_popescu: consider a simpler problem - you wish for whatever reason to "pick a good font". suppose your "good" is specified. you proceed to... look at fonts, selected by some criteria. eventually you are tired to the point your eyes blur, and haven't seen 5% of the available offerigs in "gothic medieval" from one place. there's more places. when are you done ? [18:01]
mircea_popescu: a) you can not meaningfully say if you've found a "good" font, seeing how you can't say what portion of fonts youv'e actually seen b) the very notion of good font is impossible because in principle all possible fonts were made already in triplicate. [18:01]
asciilifeform: the sane answer is that machine needs at most 2, fixed and variadic width, and with such a renderer that each can display at any scale without pixillation. [18:02]
asciilifeform: the end. [18:02]
mircea_popescu: so you are essentially looking at a collection of ink spots, until you fall over. [18:02]
mircea_popescu: there is absoloutely no reason there should be more than maybe a dozen or so fonts. but there are, because "easy to make", and in spite of the rapidly diminishing returns of "making". [18:02]
mircea_popescu: instead, those rapidly diminishing returns drive a diminishing of quality. [18:03]
* asciilifeform has 2 buttons on his keyboard, 1 opens term with 'small' fixed font, other with 'big' [18:03]
mircea_popescu: so upon meditation, this becomes very much an application of the disaster of commons discussed in http://trilema.com/2016/honor-societies-vs-respect-societies-or-how-the-disaster-of-commons-sunk-the-western-world/ : in order for fonts to be useful, they'd have to be few. however, because it's costly to enforce and the individual interest is missaligned, the result is... many. [18:04]
mircea_popescu: this is not so different from the problem of, eg, emacs. or plan9. or any software. or any fucking shop in a town, or a mall. why the fuck are there FIFTY fast food offering the same crap in the food court ? [18:04]
asciilifeform: 'As more people with less commitment to quality and much less attention to detail got involved in writing it, its educational value diminished, too. It is like going to a library full of books that took 50 man-years to produce each, inventing a way to cut down the costs to a few man-months per book by copying and randomly improving on other books, and then wondering why nobody thinks your library full of these cheaper books is an in [18:04]
asciilifeform: spiration to future authors.' [18:04]
asciilifeform: ( http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243717585684194@naggum.no.html ) [18:05]
mircea_popescu: it's not even that they're broken in tech terms. this shit is broken culturally. [18:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite exactly. [18:05]
asciilifeform: of all the plagues discussed in this thread, i'd say fonts are the mildest, it is at this very minute quite trivial to operate a machine with 2-3 fonts installed , with ~0 surgery [18:06]
mircea_popescu: yes mildest but very fucking illustrative. at least to my eyes, perhaps due to personal history. [18:07]
mircea_popescu: but there was ONE FUCKING FRAKTUR. [18:07]
asciilifeform: i always assumed that it is a thing folks do when they come of age and build 'the' machine they will work their working years on, to sit down and burn away the shitfonts, among other [18:07]
asciilifeform: incidentally 'scalable font' technology was imho a failure: [18:08]
asciilifeform: not a single time that i bought a new panel with 2-3x the density of the old one, did i NOT have to change my emacs font [18:08]
asciilifeform: and each time it was an unpleasant and quite pointless ritual. [18:08]
mircea_popescu: heh [18:08]
asciilifeform: and when i first saw screenshits of lispm, i was astonished at how readable the text was, on a box with ONE font in ONE size [18:09]
asciilifeform: to the point that i got my hands on a rom and pulled that font, and still have it somewhere. unfortunately unusable on any display that i have... [18:10]
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the problem here isn't a discrete technological product, be it a font or a bridge nor the dysfunctional process that produced it, be it a broken cnc mill or lucent but altogether something more fundamental, where young man looking to "go west" decides the west is at the bottom of the lake and proceeds to dig. [18:12]
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel [18:13]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [18:13]
mircea_popescu: we are, intellectually speaking, in the bizarre situation of st. petersburg, a small town on the mississppi where for some bizarro enchantment reason all the boys decided the thing to do is dig up the river. and drowned there. [18:13]
asciilifeform: speaking of which. [18:13]
mircea_popescu: and the kids see the discarded shoes and floating hats and decide THEY SHOULD DIG TOO [18:13]
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574912 < correct. [18:14]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:13 ben_vulpes: betcha that's exactly what gabriel_laddel did [18:14]
gabriel_laddel: I am presently trying to figure out why X11 fails to launch (segfault) on my (self hosting) livecd. [18:14]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: on what iron [18:14]
mircea_popescu: that sounds like a lot of fun. [18:14]
gabriel_laddel: x220 thinkpad. [18:14]
asciilifeform: leaves any log before death / [18:15]
asciilifeform: ? [18:15]
asciilifeform: and btw nobody ever seems to remember that one can ~debug~ segfault [18:16]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yeah, will post in a few minutes. I am pretty sure that it is because a dependency that does not show up in lddtree --list is required. [18:16]
gabriel_laddel: and right now I'm generating the most minimal possible livecd so I can see wtf is going on / speed of generation. [18:16]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: what would I use... gdb? [18:17]
phf: asciilifeform: he probably got ulimit -c 0 anyway, which as apparently sop on all kind linux [18:17]
gabriel_laddel: (to debug) [18:17]
asciilifeform: aha [18:17]
phf: *all current [18:17]
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574917 < I suffer from the disease of seeing 10s of millions of loot as reward for getting this working. [18:18]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:15 asciilifeform: d00d suffers from the traditional disease of the 19yo 'night h4ck3r' , crippling tunnel vision [18:18]
asciilifeform: if gabriel_laddel wants 10mil for a proggy that segfaults, he oughta move to washington [18:18]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: you've not seen the endgame for masamune yet. [18:19]
asciilifeform: can get in on f35 etc [18:19]
gabriel_laddel: people have blown hundreds of millions trying to make a "gui builder" atop QT, the web, swing etc. [18:20]
gabriel_laddel: I can prototype something in 727 loc on clim that blows them all out of the water. [18:20]
gabriel_laddel: creating graphical applications 10-100x faster than the competition is immensely useful. [18:20]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i'd loot a lot more than 10s of mns if i found a way to reliably get people to do the things that need done rather than the sexy things they want to do BEFORE they are old enough for their active life to be mostly behind them. [18:21]
mircea_popescu: sadly, we don't generally get what we want. [18:21]
jurov: gabriel_laddel: i heard same claims about tcl/tk. but none seven digit figures happened there i know of [18:22]
gabriel_laddel: jurov: if you don't understand how (common) lisp differs from tcl/tk you've missed the boat intellectually. [18:23]
mircea_popescu: sigh. [18:23]
trinque: "he didn't have my winning mentality!" [18:23]
asciilifeform: i find it interesting that nearly every d00d knows, or has met, or heard of, some naive sov emigre who was CERTAIN that he could make ZILLIONS!!! selling... poetry. or balloons. or, or. [18:23]
asciilifeform: but never applies the memory to himself when thinking 'i will make 10 mil selling proggy' [18:24]
trinque: it is at least advisable to study the way others fell before you. [18:24]
asciilifeform: it is why gold rushes are destructive, they turn supposedly smart folk into drooling imbeciles [18:24]
asciilifeform: sometimes, a generation later, even. [18:25]
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574914 < I have my time wasted by people like Josh-I who will do everything... but something useful. [18:26]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:13 asciilifeform: i currently have nfi what, if anything, he did other than bum around. [18:26]
mircea_popescu: o.O [18:26]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: have you ever considered going into salvage business ? [18:26]
asciilifeform: raising, e.g., sunken ww2 ships [18:26]
asciilifeform: repair, sell, PR0F1T!11111 [18:26]
gabriel_laddel: I have not. [18:27]
asciilifeform: before you disagree, consider, it is easier than fixing clim. [18:27]
asciilifeform: the nazi subs are closer to working subs than clim+x11 is to lispm. [18:27]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he doesnt pick by easy. [18:27]
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574916 < you need my patches else climacs will die on you constantly. [18:27]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:15 trinque: is climacs usable to this degree? [18:27]
trinque: your shithub is from last year [18:27]
jurov: eh, leave gabriel be, at least he isn't working on doublebuffered Emacs FastSave(r)(tm) [18:28]
trinque: where is the current vpatch ? [18:28]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: no no no [18:28]
mircea_popescu: jurov amusingly, lua actually DID realise mns in savings for petrobras. the authors however failed to capture any of it. [18:28]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: the only way to distribute software is as a full self-hosting linux that can generate livecds of itself. [18:28]
asciilifeform: trinque: all else aside, i want to know where the d00d's PUBKEY is, and wtf he thinks he is doing without one. [18:28]
gabriel_laddel: my github is wayyy out of date. [18:28]
trinque: fucking wrong. [18:28]
mircea_popescu: trinque he's trying for appledom. [18:28]
trinque: the only way is signed vpatches [18:28]
trinque: so I know wtf it is! and by whom! [18:29]
asciilifeform: it does not bother gabriel_laddel to be a ghost ? with no flesh ? [18:29]
trinque: mircea_popescu: I can see it, but then I think I'm supposed to be the customer ? [18:29]
phf: petrobras? [18:30]
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574925 < if I could find *actual* stims I'd be done with this idiot adventure already. [18:30]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:22 asciilifeform: i've wondered if he doesn't have a secret and dire problem with dope or similar. [18:30]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'appledom' , though some folx seem to forget, in the words of jobs himself even, 'we shall take unfair advantage of the fact that we make the software AND THE HARDWARE' [18:30]
asciilifeform: THE HARDWARE [18:30]
mircea_popescu: phf yes, lua was build in-house by the brazillians trying to you know, be independent state. [18:30]
phf: ooh [18:30]
mircea_popescu: it didn't work kinda amusingly. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: political history of lua / petro-brazil is a worthy pit to dig for the amateur cyber-historian of republican perspective. [18:31]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: now i am very much curious, in what country, when, were 'actual stims' finally discovered ? [18:31]
asciilifeform: i'd liek some also. [18:31]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I have been a little busy to generate a new key in an unsecure manner. It is on "the list" [18:31]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I was referring to cocaine / meth. [18:31]
trinque: lol! [18:31]
asciilifeform: srsly, gabriel_laddel thinks 'hmm, i have problem, what is it, oh -- INSUFFICIENT METH' [18:32]
asciilifeform: ?? [18:32]
mircea_popescu: hey, alf said it worked for erdos [18:32]
asciilifeform: i think erdos never ate 100g even in his 75 yr working life [18:32]
phf: well, as w burroughs demonstrated the problem is not dope, it's the lack of money to both buy dope and not have to shop to work the next day [18:33]
mircea_popescu: you think ? [18:33]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yes. When I am inbetween places to sleep for ~24 hours and need sleep it helps to be able to GET SOMETHING DONE. [18:33]
mircea_popescu: it'd help more to sleep. [18:34]
mircea_popescu: strictly, more. [18:34]
gabriel_laddel: right now I consume ~pot of coffee a day. [18:34]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: ever hear of idea of 'sleep debt' [18:34]
asciilifeform: any stim worx by 'pressing gas pedal', this is later paid for. [18:35]
asciilifeform: or we would all be mainlining . [18:35]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yet. I end up going through these cycles where caffeine works to stave off sleep, then it doesn't, then I end up sleeping on a couch for 3 days, 12-14 hours a day. [18:35]
gabriel_laddel: *yes. [18:35]
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform spent his student years like this. [18:35]
asciilifeform: and does not think that it is purely coincidental that he has nothing interesting to show from those days software-wise. [18:36]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: tried cocaine yet? [18:36]
mircea_popescu: fwiw i never did this. [18:36]
gabriel_laddel: do you know what it does for you? [18:36]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: nope. [18:36]
trinque: I know what the 10yr of that looks like, secondhand [18:36]
trinque: doesn't look like superhaxor... [18:36]
gabriel_laddel: then I maintain you have no idea what it can and cannot do for you in my situation. [18:36]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel this applies to, eg, licking mains socket also ? or just some classes of things ? [18:37]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel programs with cocaine ? [18:37]
asciilifeform: ( freud wrote on cocaine, so it is probably possible ... ) [18:37]
phf: i wouldn't code on coke, or amphetamines for that matter, that hyperactivity narrows down your periphery thinking, which results in a lot of drawn out code [18:37]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: no? [18:37]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I've no source for it, else, yes, I would. [18:37]
trinque: all it's going to do is make some foolhardy thing seem like A WICKED SWEET IDEA BRAH [18:38]
trinque: because chemically induced enthusiasm [18:38]
phf: programmer's stone made a point long time ago that you need to be really fucking relaxed to write quality code [18:38]
asciilifeform: dopes that make the eater happier to do repetitive / dumb task, are death to programmer. [18:38]
asciilifeform: unless he is exceptionally disciplined . [18:38]
asciilifeform: does gabriel_laddel consider himself exceptionally disciplined..? [18:39]
mircea_popescu: or working for alcatel-lucent [18:39]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: let's put it this way -- I used cocaine, meth etc etc from 16-20 constantly, then not at all for 4+ years. Idk if that is disciplined or what, but I don't appear to have a problem with it, know what it does to me and think it would improve my current situation. [18:40]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if your current situation is 'just centimetre short of cracking $hardproblem' -- i can picture, it could [18:41]
trinque: that adds some color to the situation [18:41]
gabriel_laddel: ^ this. [18:41]
asciilifeform: think -- afterburner on mig. [18:41]
gabriel_laddel: it isn't even a hard problem, just tedious. [18:41]
asciilifeform: but afterburner has to be paid for. [18:41]
trinque: the conceit is that you're always a centimeter away [18:41]
trinque: perpetually [18:41]
trinque: that is what addiction is. [18:41]
gabriel_laddel: gotta get this fuking livecd to work, and then smooth sailing [18:41]
mircea_popescu: nobody is ever a centimetre short of cracking anything. [18:41]
mircea_popescu: this is like being "centimetre short of gravitational capture". ain't how things work. [18:42]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if you think shitlinux can be turned into 'smooth sailing', you have unplesant surprise coming. [18:42]
mircea_popescu: trinque aha. entirely "ignis fatuus of the mind" [18:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must disagree, i was quite close to, e.g., 'v', for very long time before finally wrote it. [18:42]
asciilifeform: but this is rare. [18:42]
mircea_popescu: that centimetre is a length of log, nothing else. [18:43]
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel [18:43]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [18:43]
asciilifeform: i find it interesting that (iirc) gabriel_laddel was mega-aficionado of my www, but will not take any of my advice nao. [18:47]
mircea_popescu: well, every computer goes through two phases - first, programming, then execution. [18:48]
asciilifeform: first ecstacy, then laundry. [18:48]
asciilifeform: (uncle al schwartz) [18:48]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575131 << guess for whom else: for nsa. they rolled in (yes) lua interpreter into whole series of trojans [18:50]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:28 mircea_popescu: jurov amusingly, lua actually DID realise mns in savings for petrobras. the authors however failed to capture any of it. [18:50]
asciilifeform: and i dun think they paid the authors either [18:50]
asciilifeform: i had glass of milk not long ago, and did not pay a cow iirc. [18:51]
shinohai: It's back! https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/5fswjx/bitcoin_classic_is_back/ xD [18:51]
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574934 < lol. And how long have you spent working on this? [18:51]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:46 phf: i've been low-key reviving cmucl's hemlock, can't use portable hemlock nor climacs for that matter, because neither have terminal versions. needless to say the process is slow and painful. like right now i'm trying to figure out why scrolling the buffer is slow slow you can see each individual line redrawing. also arrow keys don't work [18:51]
gabriel_laddel: And how much is a plane ticket to SFO and back? [18:51]
mircea_popescu: 1k ? [18:52]
phf: hmm, around 400 [18:52]
gabriel_laddel: nah like 300 [18:52]
gabriel_laddel: fly out to SFO, bring a computer and we'll install masamune. [18:52]
trinque: the mind will create elaborate narratives to justify addiction. never affected me directly, but I've seen it. [18:53]
mircea_popescu: shinohai lol they redid their website. mmmkay. [18:53]
trinque: not even, but especially "save the computing industry" quests [18:53]
gabriel_laddel: phf: your time is worth how much per hour again? [18:53]
trinque: ben_vulpes can confirm that I saw that one directly, with a former boss / drunk. [18:53]
asciilifeform: where was BingoBoingo's bot thing now that it is so needed [18:54]
shinohai: With a spiffy new website, it shows "development" being done AND NOT LOST CAUSE! [18:54]
gabriel_laddel: contrast the previous two lines with: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574930 [18:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:25 trinque: at any rate, if I were to invest time in climacs, that is time stolen from learning osdev to put a lisp interpreter on iron, which is time stolen from learning to fab silicon in a garage, which is time stolen from ... [18:54]
trinque: !~step1 [18:54]
jhvh1: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. [18:54]
asciilifeform: theeere [18:55]
BingoBoingo: !~step9 [18:55]
jhvh1: 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. [18:55]
mircea_popescu: shinohai the response of the redditards is so amusing. "there's TWO DIFFERENT DOOMED FORKS NOW!!! for you to choose from! because fragmentation is so totally the winning strategy!" [18:55]
mircea_popescu: somehow the progre mind just can't get out of itself. [18:55]
mircea_popescu: again and again and again the same stupidity it will do, because hey. all it got. [18:55]
shinohai: This must have came out of Roger Ver's "Consensus Meeting" today [18:56]
mircea_popescu: next i suppose they'll be "teaching the controversy" of whether shit or turd is the correct choice, and we'll continue ignoring them and they'll continue to pretend that we don't matter and their 5% is inexplicable at the same time. without any problem whatsoever in their absent minds, putin doesn't understand how the world works and influences the elections, sure, why not. [18:57]
asciilifeform: i'd genuinely like to know how it came to be that 'get cocaine' came to rank above 'get pubkey' , 'get postbox' , 'get a flat' in gabriel_laddel's head [18:57]
* mircea_popescu has been having fun asking libtards "so why didn't YOU influence the elections then ?" [18:57]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cocaine is sweeter. [18:57]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I've spent no time on trying to source it. [18:57]
gabriel_laddel: it isn't ranked above any of those. [18:58]
asciilifeform: dunno, warm and dry bed is pretty sweet if you ask me [18:58]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel so you got an eta ? [18:58]
phf: gabriel_laddel: well this is my avocation, so hacking on hemlock and installing masamune in sfo is cost equivalent. i'd make a trip just as a mini vacation, i'll see when's the closest i can swing it [18:58]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/11/reddit-ceo-huffman-takes-it-pao-right-in-the-kisser/ << Qntra - Reddit CEO Huffman Takes It Pao, Right In The Kisser [18:59]
trinque: "hey man can I like, take a shower in your hotel room?" [18:59]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in libertard cosmography, 'influence' is not a thing that one wields because smarter, stronger, or having more accurate model of reality, but because blessed by satan [18:59]
phf: trinque: i go to burning man, the kind of people i accommodate.... [18:59]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: eh, if you're not willing to ask / do that to realize sane computing -- you don't want it at all. [18:59]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it must be huh. [18:59]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: Unfortunately no. I cannot predict how long it will take me to deal with idiot unix nonsense. [18:59]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel then your schedule's no good, throw it out make another. [19:00]
trinque: phf: lel [19:00]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: no. throw out the unix nonsense and make predictions about how long it will take to write CL, which I can reason about. [19:00]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: do you envision the 'unix nonsense' retreating into an airtight balloon that you have made for it, through sheer force of will ? to kill it in a staring concept ? [19:01]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what is it that you picture doing to it, that no one has thought of doing previously ? [19:02]
asciilifeform: to make it sit in the balloon , somehow stink-proof and escape-proof. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel any schedule you make that doesn't include a fixed time to get pubkey is for that reason unusable throw it out and re-do. [19:03]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: mk. Will do tonight. Am presently getting X11 log for ascii. [19:03]
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575104 << this deserves long meditation [19:04]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:21 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i'd loot a lot more than 10s of mns if i found a way to reliably get people to do the things that need done rather than the sexy things they want to do BEFORE they are old enough for their active life to be mostly behind them. [19:04]
asciilifeform: speaking of keys, i'd quite enjoy learning who made /gpgkey/E3B0C44298FC1C149AFBF4C8996FB92427AE41E4649B934CA495991B7852B855 and why [19:05]
* trinque afk for now to do so [19:05]
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i must also retreat to a dark room to do 'unsexy and necessary' per mircea_popescu's formula, long-needed job, so bbl. [19:06]
asciilifeform: ^ http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E3B0C44298FC1C149AFBF4C8996FB92427AE41E4649B934CA495991B7852B855 [19:07]
* phf has been working this entire time [19:09]
trinque: it strikes me that there is a perversity in "serving a man in your own way" [19:10]
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575212 << it drives this. [19:10]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:47 asciilifeform: i find it interesting that (iirc) gabriel_laddel was mega-aficionado of my www, but will not take any of my advice nao. [19:10]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I envision 1. masamune is self-hosting, with the ability to replicate itself onto a livecd containing all sources used to build it, that can then produce like replicants. 2. no more updates to ALGOL systems, ever, given that all the sources needed for the lisp environment are self-contained. 3. A CLIM system manager that abstracts ov [19:11]
gabriel_laddel: er equery/emerge (more details later) 4. using this *stable* platform to do simulations for sane computing in CL 5. supporting this venture by leveraging lisp/clim/climacs/macsyma/sbcl against the rest of the world, which cannot produce GUIs / code / production systems as quickly. [19:11]
trinque: but oh right, "great artists steal" [19:11]
* trinque yawns [19:11]
trinque: what a misunderstood item that was [19:11]
phf: !!up gabriel_laddel [19:14]
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. [19:14]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-01#1575277 << perversity yes and a greater measure of stupidity. [19:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-12-01 00:10 trinque: it strikes me that there is a perversity in "serving a man in your own way" [19:22]
jurov: i can picture several ways how this approach to self-hosting can fail, but does not look like you're open to advices [19:24]
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A_HZAsa2Sw#t=2m00s << imo the greatest musical achievement of the killer micro. [19:24]
jurov: i'd think of something that touches only malloc, filesystem (optional) and communicates only vnc/X11 via socket [19:25]
gabriel_laddel: jurov: I'm open to advice, I just disagree with them. What's on your mind? [19:27]
jurov: there are still too many moving parts, what do you do when you find catastrophic bug in X, or it has only hardware drivers for devices that can't be bought anymore? [19:29]
gabriel_laddel: jurov: patch it and share with WOT. If it cannot be fixed, make a note of it and distribute. [19:30]
jurov: mircea wanted similar freeze with eulora, i can't imagine it [19:30]
jurov: you will backport drivers to ancient X server? [19:30]
gabriel_laddel: jurov: all the other masamune machines out in the wild are running the same sources as I am [19:30]
gabriel_laddel: the process needs to be streamlined. [19:30]
mircea_popescu: ! [19:31]
gabriel_laddel: jurov: what? no, we're going to bake our own hardware. [19:31]
mircea_popescu: <gabriel_laddel> jurov: I'm open to advice, I just disagree with them. << lol! [19:31]
mircea_popescu: !~bash 1 [19:31]
jhvh1: Last 1 lines bashed and pending publication [19:31]
jurov: 5 years go by, video card breaks and can't be bought, what now? [19:31]
jurov: *bought the same [19:31]
gabriel_laddel: jurov: bribe the chinese to bake some more [19:32]
gabriel_laddel: it's in the logs. [19:32]
jurov: mkay [19:32]
mircea_popescu: jurov yes, the problem is not well solved and not evidently solvable, but this doesn't make it not a problem. [19:32]
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: Xorg.0.log: paste.lisp.org/display/332951 [19:35]
jurov: gabriel_laddel: you should enable debug info and reemerge world to get meaningful backtraces [19:37]
jurov: till that you can run xorg under strace and give that to alf [19:37]
gabriel_laddel: mk [19:38]
gabriel_laddel: am off to dinner though, night. [19:38]
jurov: night [19:38]
adlai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575187 << first log appearance for this, led me to http://www.the-programmers-stone.com/about which makes two preposterous claims in one sentence before i've even scrolled down once: "I discovered that (almost) everyone can become a super-programmer, and with a crew of super-programmers, gelled teams form up naturally." [20:01]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:38 phf: programmer's stone made a point long time ago that you need to be really fucking relaxed to write quality code [20:01]
phf: adlai: you don't want to read it too closely, i certainly am not going to waste my time defending nitpicking [20:03]
adlai: re: 'dope', lose the alpha-methyl... much more useful effects, at least in my (limited) experience coding under such influences [20:05]
* adlai is speaking broadly here. literally taking the alpha-methyl off 'meth' is not the intent here, but rather nominating for consideration substituted PEAs such as mescaline [20:07]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7B492BD67F2960831073C17D04FB7E0EB3CD90D9767392115A3DD804220B2656 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1620...6257 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '83.3.207.210 (ssh-rsa key from 83.3.207.210 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (grz210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl. PL) [20:11]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A8567569490690A4A212DEEDF7809300A0F133264CEB4ED07E15261F5F26C5E4 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2067...1921 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '128.238.63.50 (ssh-rsa key from 128.238.63.50 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (blackbox.poly.edu. US NY) [20:11]
shinohai: Today's mass shooting event is brought to you by Baltimore: http://archive.is/UIe9v [20:14]
mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-November/000241.html [20:15]
mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-December/000242.html [20:15]
adlai: in other news, physics lecturer is quite good: "being here does not excuse you from thinking, rather thinking is required of you" also "i can explain everything you want, but you'll have to start listening". so he's not quite throwing out the idiots, but it looks like he goes as far as he can without getting his jerb tooken away [20:16]
adlai: what i can't fathom is this fetish all the teachers have for writing content by hand in realtime, rather than clicking a button and having a computer instantly display a legible, proofread, typeset, etc version [20:19]
mod6: whoops. meant to remove that second paragraph out of the SoBA all. my apologies. please ignore that part. [20:21]
shinohai: Still, quite the productive month. [20:29]
adlai: congratulations! [20:31]
* adlai recently tried pressing & building trb on fbsd did not go well, needs another attempt. but for now - sleep. [20:32]
shinohai: This may be the best story I have seen all day: Former gay porn actor turned German spy arrested for secretly being a Jihadist http://archive.is/9SQqY [20:42]
mod6: adlai: yeah, to make it work on bsd you need some special tweaks. otherwise, won't go. [20:43]
mod6: adlai: also, thanks :] [20:43]
* shinohai thinks a bsd version should be added to how-to in future [20:44]
BingoBoingo: deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/LnrhN/?raw=true [20:47]
BingoBoingo: !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/LnrhN/?raw=true [20:50]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/qntra-s-qntr-november-2016-report/ << Qntra - Qntra (S.QNTR) November 2016 Report [20:50]
deedbot: accepted: 1 [20:51]
mod6: shinohai: well, at one point the one patch we had made that possible, but with buildroot now in the mix, im not sure. would have to be dug into. [20:52]
mod6: and mainly there is so much other non-infrastructure related work to do, i think that's taking a back-seat unless someone steps up to work on it and contribute. [20:52]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575048 << I'm actually rather surprised there isn't a generic scrypt shitcoin miner in postscript for the Printernet of Things [20:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:01 asciilifeform: (postscript is, approximately, a hypertrophied forth) [20:54]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575158 << The way tolerance works could have been doing 1 gram per day his last hundred days. [20:58]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:32 asciilifeform: i think erdos never ate 100g even in his 75 yr working life [20:58]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575172 << Scam. All cocaine does is make you want more cocaine. [20:59]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:36 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: tried cocaine yet? [20:59]
mircea_popescu: adlai it's not entirely evident to me that average intelligence person could not make excellent programmer. contrary to the "consensus" on the topic, programming is much more a matter of not being dumb than of being "creative" [21:00]
mircea_popescu: and dumb is by and large an apanage reserved to the "intelligent" [21:00]
mircea_popescu: phf ✂ < lol! [21:03]
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1575228 << Mental obsession and physical allergy combine to create a profound physical and spiritual sickness. [21:04]
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:53 trinque: the mind will create elaborate narratives to justify addiction. never affected me directly, but I've seen it. [21:04]
mircea_popescu: mod6 nice! [21:05]
mod6: salud! [21:16]
mircea_popescu: in random fun facts : soviet military expenditure in the 30s was ~12% of gdp. it jumped to ~18% in early 1940. this is BEFORE germany invaded (1941). today "normal" military expenditure is 1.x%, from japan and australia to italy or germany. the us does ~3.x. of the rich countries, the saudis are the only ones being reasonable (ie, over10%). the jews are half that. [21:39]
mircea_popescu: the difference goes to supporting the hipster class. [21:39]
mircea_popescu: takes a whole lotta ipads to make one tank. [21:40]
asciilifeform: the things usg spends 'military' moneys on, are only with difficulty and vigorous anal pear cranking stretchable to call 'military' [21:43]
asciilifeform: e.g., for many years -- asciilifeform . [21:43]
asciilifeform: as for tanks , i got stuck behind one in traffic (no, not hallucinating, it was on a flatbed as it ought to be.) this used to be more common sight. but as i understand they are not making so many new ones, the 1 (yes 1) factory in ohio is laying off hands [21:45]
asciilifeform: much better use of budget: f35 'factories' [21:46]
asciilifeform: english lacks the handy handy word, распил . [21:46]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/gU0Pw << in other yesterday's noose. [21:49]
mircea_popescu: aha. [21:51]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note the "version 41 to 50". [21:52]
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats [22:04]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 441366 | Current Difficulty: 2.818009171931958E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 441503 | Next Difficulty In: 137 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 21 hours, 37 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [22:04]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/emergency-mozilla-bulletin-stop-using-firefox/ << Qntra - Emergency Mozilla Bulletin: Stop Using Firefox [22:04]
BingoBoingo: New Trilema header image, much chest hair! [22:34]
mircea_popescu: :p [22:41]
mircea_popescu: !!up garmin [23:00]
deedbot: garmin voiced for 30 minutes. [23:00]
BingoBoingo: !!up garmin Speak now or prolly never get voice again [23:03]
deedbot: garmin voiced for 30 minutes. [23:03]
mircea_popescu: and in other news : http://nosuchlabs.com/ << can now order FUCKGOATS [23:11]
asciilifeform: gentlemen !! [23:12]
garmin: hi all... testing my pocket chip micro... fat figering a micro qwerty -p [23:17]
BingoBoingo: garmin: WHo is your daddy and what does he do? [23:21]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/bPXX8/?raw=true [23:21]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/no-such-labs-unveils-fuckgoats/ << Qntra - No Such lAbs Unveils FUCKGOATS [23:25]
mircea_popescu: win. [23:26]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7B492BD67F2960831073C17D04FB7E0EB3CD90D9767392115A3DD804220B2656 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1592...5747 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '83.3.207.210 (ssh-rsa key from 83.3.207.210 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (grz210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl. PL) [23:27]
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A8567569490690A4A212DEEDF7809300A0F133264CEB4ED07E15261F5F26C5E4 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1430...1817 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '128.238.63.50 (ssh-rsa key from 128.238.63.50 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt> ' (blackbox.poly.edu. US NY) [23:27]
asciilifeform: gentlemen -- start your spmengines. [23:50]
asciilifeform: no heathen pit too rancid ! [23:50]
mircea_popescu: lol [23:50]
BingoBoingo: https://twitter.com/qntra/status/804180936082518016 [23:59]
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