Forum logs for 21 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

Luke-Jr	why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw?	[00:01]
*	assbot removes voice from Luke-Jr	[00:01]
scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/robert-faiella-aka-btcking-sentenced-to-four-years-in-prison/	[00:02]
mod6	i cant believe im going to do this	[00:02]
mod6	!up Luke-Jr	[00:02]
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mod6	it was selected because "reasons"	[00:03]
Luke-Jr	I think the db_config patch may explain why it works, but could be potentially inadequate for the current consensus rules	[00:03]
Luke-Jr	looks like Gavin's recommendations, which were lame	[00:04]
mod6	which are those?	[00:04]
Luke-Jr	dunno, it's lost in history now	[00:04]
Luke-Jr	the 0.5.x backport just changed set_lk_max_locks to 537000	[00:05]
Luke-Jr	not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max..	[00:05]
felipelalli	MPEx are going to negotiate Gavin Coins?	[00:06]
nubbins`	<+Luke-Jr> why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw? <<< i said 0.6.1...	[00:07]
nubbins`	it was decided that 0.5.3 was the earliest that'd still work.	[00:07]
nubbins`	or rather, that 0.5.3 was the point at which no further breaking changes were implemented	[00:07]
Luke-Jr	nubbins`: 0.4.9rc3 should work I think	[00:08]
Luke-Jr	I maintained that up until Sep 2013	[00:08]
decimation	https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/db.cpp#L89	[00:08]
assbot	bitcoin/db.cpp at master · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1576QtO )	[00:08]
Luke-Jr	including through the 0.8.1 hardfork	[00:08]
Luke-Jr	decimation: Bitcoin Core does not use bdb for the blockchain	[00:09]
Luke-Jr	since 0.8.0	[00:09]
Luke-Jr	ie, those limits are for the wallet	[00:09]
Luke-Jr	https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable/commit/4a89522c22e07a640463292b212ecdf31037a8c4 is the 0.4.x commit for the hardfork	[00:11]
assbot	Bugfix: Bump lk_max_locks default to 537000, to safely handle reorgs ... - Gitorious ... ( http://bit.ly/1577ozQ )	[00:11]
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Luke-Jr	https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable/commit/b4e9cd8e8ab310bf341103bac1e9640e27cc7488 is also informative in that respect	[00:12]
assbot	Check effective maximum bdb locks (possibly overridden in DB_CONFIG),... - Gitorious ... ( http://bit.ly/1577zv1 )	[00:12]
*	mod6 looks	[00:12]
nubbins`	tracking down vintage 0.5.3 and applying .foundation patches = fun times	[00:15]
nubbins`	start with chicken.tar.gz and go from there	[00:16]
mod6	i've got a script now...	[00:16]
mod6	but i'll publish it to the list with some refinements before the end of the month	[00:16]
nubbins`	it's all in easily-digestible chunks, no sweat to eyeball each patch & fully understand what's going on	[00:16]
*	mod6 finds	[00:16]
Luke-Jr	"tracking down" as if it's disappeared	[00:16]
nubbins`	did YOU save the MD5 sums? 8)	[00:16]
Luke-Jr	nubbins`: my git client did	[00:17]
Luke-Jr	also, MD5 is not safe for this	[00:17]
nubbins`	and so disappearing is not precisely the concern :D	[00:17]
mod6	http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=U75B7820	[00:17]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1zvrJwi )	[00:17]
mod6	just need to change ``HOME'' to where you wanna build	[00:17]
Luke-Jr	do you guys dislike git or something? O.o	[00:18]
Luke-Jr	git basically uses a "blockchain" and makes it very hard to rewrite history	[00:18]
mod6	we wanted unified diffs we could sign	[00:20]
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Luke-Jr	mod6: git supports signing commits	[00:22]
Luke-Jr	although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them	[00:22]
mod6	yeah, there was a whole discussion surrounding this entire process. it's in the logs.	[00:23]
Luke-Jr	oh well, I guess it's managable if you don't plan to do much maintenance to it	[00:23]
decimation	Luke-Jr: the idea is that signed patches would be read by people, who would then sign	[00:24]
Luke-Jr	yeah, it's definitely a shortcoming of git	[00:25]
Luke-Jr	anyhow, if the goal is oldest version, I'd recommend going off 0.4.x; either way, I'd recommend fixing the bdb hardfork	[00:26]
Luke-Jr	and I hope Gavin doesn't plan to just ignore DarkWallet and your fork - though I wouldn't be surprised if he did to be honest	[00:27]
Luke-Jr	might help if the devs here participated in the discussions in #bitcoin-dev when it came up.. maybe	[00:27]
decimation	I'm not sure folks here are interested in 'maintaining' as much as understanding and recreating	[00:28]
asciilifeform	Luke-Jr: you're still thinking in terms of persuasion. we don't need to persuade the usg stooge of anything.	[00:28]
Luke-Jr	asciilifeform: I agree Gavin should persuade you - but he will probably ignore you if you're not there discussing it	[00:29]
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Luke-Jr	(persuade you, as opposed to you persuading him to stop)	[00:29]
Luke-Jr	(ugh, I'm being unclear: I mean the onus is on him to convince you, and you shouldn't have to convince him)	[00:30]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88901 @ 0.00046346 = 41.2021 BTC [+] {2}	[00:31]
mircea_popescu	!up Blazedout419	[00:31]
-assbot-	You voiced Blazedout419 for 30 minutes.	[00:31]
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decimation	why would we care what some guy (like gavin) commits into some random github repo?	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	Blazedout419 hey, my question to you is, did you actually pay 14k for that guy's wooden thing, as represented ? or was it more like a sweetheart sort of deal for advertising sake, like the sillycon valley does ?	[00:32]
mircea_popescu	i dunno any better, so ima take your word for it.	[00:32]
Luke-Jr	decimation: it's not "some random github repo", it's the code that most nodes will be running unless someone objects	[00:33]
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mircea_popescu	!up Luke-Jr	[00:33]
-assbot-	You voiced Luke-Jr for 30 minutes.	[00:33]
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Luke-Jr	decimation: also, Gavin is no longer the final word for any git repo	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	when did that happen ?	[00:33]
Luke-Jr	a few months ago IIRC	[00:33]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` darling how did YOU get sexist ?	[00:33]
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mircea_popescu	Luke-Jr anyway, inasmuch as everyone actually wants bitcoin to prevail, divergence of opinion isn't much of a problem. however, the conservative rather than the progressive approach must be observed. change doesn't happen just for the sake of changing things. this isn't a fad or an ipad gizmo. if consensus can't be reached for whatever reason, whoever doesn't like it leaves and starts over, rather than pretending the o	[00:38]
mircea_popescu	pposite.	[00:38]
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Luke-Jr	mircea_popescu: I'm definitely in favour of taking a conservative approach, and I'm pretty sure most of the Bitcoin Core team is as well. I think Gavin was probably frustrated earlier when it came up in #bitcoin-dev because nobody could give him a straightforward "way to convince everyone"	[00:40]
mircea_popescu	sometimes we don't get what we want. that doesn't mean our wants now have a wild card and nothing else matters anymore. this isn't school.	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	what's next, start assaulting women because "nobody told me how to seduce any woman" ?	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	seems a little too geeky.	[00:42]
Luke-Jr	mircea_popescu: If Gavin wanted to force the hardfork, he wouldn't be frustrated at his inability to convince people ;)	[00:42]
mircea_popescu	im not going to carry that argument.	[00:43]
ACTION	AME ANICK AMSG ADDBUTTON ALLCHAN ALLCHANL ALLSERV AWAY	[00:43]
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mircea_popescu	!up Trollmeister	[00:49]
-assbot-	You voiced Trollmeister for 30 minutes.	[00:49]
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mircea_popescu	!up elgrecoFL	[00:49]
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Luke-Jr	anyhow, I don't think Gavin knows people here have concerns. I'd suggest doing a writeup of what those concerns are, and what Gavin needs to do if he wants your approval for a hardfork. I know you shouldn't have to, but otherwise I don't see any way this is likely to come to a resolution.	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	people here don't "have concerns". people here are going to skin the fork as proposed so far, no argument there. gavin can start reading or press ahead, either way.	[00:52]
Luke-Jr	especially if Gavin has the big merchants and exchanges onboard - if they follow his lead on this, everyone who wants to buy stuff with Bitcoin is likely to follow along too, for better or worse	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	the one large merchant left in bitcoin so far is mpex.	[00:53]
Luke-Jr	"skin the fork"?	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	but if you absolutely must see bitpay die before you wake up, it can be arranged.	[00:53]
mircea_popescu	coinbase made the round, which i guess gains it a little space. NOT that much.	[00:53]
Luke-Jr	please. how many people actually even use MPEX?	[00:53]
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mircea_popescu	enough to make me 600 btc in the month bitpay made a loss.	[00:53]
Luke-Jr	that could be a single person with a lot of volume	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	point being, mpex is, currently, > 50% of "bitcoin business". like it or not, it's a fact.	[00:54]
Luke-Jr	head counts matter more than volume sometimes	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	not in money, no.	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	but if headcount feels the need to learn this through headcollisions with hard objects, it may.	[00:54]
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Luke-Jr	I find it very hard to believe MPEX is even 1% of bitcoin business	[00:55]
mircea_popescu	right.	[00:56]
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mircea_popescu	it's so far 100% of the bitcoin "told the usg to get fucked" party. once you digest that you might be in a better position to evaluate who matters and who doesn't,	[00:56]
mircea_popescu	than if going by conference headcounds or w/e.	[00:56]
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Luke-Jr	look, I respect your right to be free of US interference since you're outside the US, but governmental politics has basically nothing to do with hardforks	[00:57]
mircea_popescu	globalisation just turned off hm ?	[00:58]
Luke-Jr	?	[00:58]
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Luke-Jr	I can't imagine how the block size is at all related to governments, or why a government would aim to change it.	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	you don't get a private island just because you want one. things have to do with each other, it's the way of the world.	[00:59]
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mircea_popescu	listen, arguing to ignorance is really bad engineering.	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	i don't know why a whale would want to be 20 tons. so what of it.	[00:59]
Luke-Jr	you think the block size issue is USG-inspired? what do they have to gain from it?	[00:59]
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mircea_popescu	this is too lengthy a discussion. bitcoin is perceived as a threat by pretty much every central bank, you know that much.	[01:00]
Luke-Jr	sure - how does that cross over into the block size matter?	[01:01]
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mircea_popescu	there's many intertwined issues there. the outermost layer is, to establish whether an english speaking cia visitor is even in a position to push through a hardfork.	[01:02]
Luke-Jr	by himself? then it's a simple "no" I hope	[01:03]
Luke-Jr	any hardfork needs at least a supermajority of bitcoin users	[01:03]
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mircea_popescu	his rethoric was different a coupla months ago, and as far as anyone can tell hasn't actually caught up with your representation thereof.	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	but i guess this is coming	[01:04]
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decimation	it seems to me that the enemies of bitcoin would love to think that they could 'update' the protocol as they desire	[01:07]
decimation	like the ietf & http	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	Luke-Jr: although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them << the idea isn't to sign commits, but to sign reads. << see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-09-2014#824250 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-10-2014#888473 it's an older point this, about software accountability.	[01:09]
assbot	Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.	[01:09]
assbot	Logged on 22-10-2014 18:53:07; mircea_popescu: it's one thing to trust this rnd function because asciilifeform and 25 others signed on reading it.	[01:09]
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mircea_popescu	decimation for sure, making it plain that bitcoin isn't a sort of http / pki / dns / ietf / whatever captive protocol in the courtyard of some us dependent or another is quite valuable. first and foremost for bitcoin.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	then for everyone using it.	[01:10]
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mircea_popescu	!up Father_MAXI	[01:15]
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ben_vulpes	tango is harrrrd	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	only if you're dancing it.	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	"Likewise, in the worst case if Bitcoin did overshoot to become centralized alt-coins and the market would again solve the problem."	[01:17]
mircea_popescu	reading reddit is like drinking old cheese.	[01:18]
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mircea_popescu	and this is summaries.	[01:18]
ben_vulpes	anyone getting spammed with CTCP messages from a mramberg?	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	you can just drop ctcp you know.	[01:19]
ben_vulpes	i guess i do now	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	i am kinda shocked nobody is wanting to buy gavincoins from me for a fucking steep discount, incidentally.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	this is like ether all over again. "oh we have tons of support!!1" "how come nobody is trading ?" "it';s mystical support. woodcollector knows all about it. we'll send you a private video." etc.	[01:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00045657 = 9.9989 BTC [-] {2}	[01:22]
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mircea_popescu	!s pierre_rochard	[01:25]
assbot	331 results for 'pierre_rochard' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pierre_rochard	[01:25]
mircea_popescu	;;later tell pierre_rochard errything fine up there ?	[01:26]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	this is a pretty lulzy snippet :	[01:26]
mircea_popescu	"tldr: economically speaking, core dev team should not worry about increasing the block size limit until at the very least we see average transaction fees consistently above the 0.0001 btc 'minimum'. At that point we can revisit this debate. There are other questions about feasibility and politics that I'll leave out."	[01:27]
decimation	re: woodcollector scam << the one I see in random us fishwrappers is 'fuel saving magnets' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_saving_device#Magnets	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	reddit : "You're only looking at the technical side of it. Leaving the 1 MB block size issue for later is risky due to political/social reasons. Every hard fork brings with it uncertainty and risks because it requires wide consensus to be carried out smoothly. As long as these risks hang over the Bitcoin economy, many companies will be hesitant to make long-term commitments to the Bitcoin economy. Afterall, a hard fork	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	could lead to Bitcoin community splitting into two networks, or a hard fork could end up not happening due to community infighting. Both of these would be disastrous for the Bitcoin economy.	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	The 1 MB block size limit needs to removed as soon as possible, and replaced with something that scales automatically, rather than through risky hard forks that require political consensus. It's 2015, Microsoft, one of the largest companies in the world, accepts Bitcoin, and the Bitcoin network can only handle 3 transactions per second, unless there is a hard fork. Getting rid of the 1 MB block size limit is long overd	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	ue.	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	With the limit in place, Bitcoin runs the risk of stagnating. When the limit is lifted, I predict we will see mass adoption."	[01:27]
assbot	Fuel saving device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Epdb0n )	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	because a) we deeply care about the "i predicts" of propaganda agents ; b) "hurry up guise, if we don't do it while nobody's looking we won't be able to do it at all"	[01:28]
decimation	lol yeah joe sixpack is not using bitcoin because of the block size limit	[01:28]
mircea_popescu	what sort of rotten oats would an ass have to eat to imagine that something that couldn't be done later should be done now. it's the screaming declaration of "we don't represent anyone but wish to rule everyone"	[01:28]
mircea_popescu	decimation the craftyness of it, tho. who is presented as the golden standard ? microsoft. because why ?	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	because obviously.	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/the-battlefield-of-the-future/ << this makes exquisite companion reading.	[01:30]
assbot	The battlefield of the future pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1EpdAzY )	[01:30]
decimation	the Legislative Assembly was more than happy to recognize Georges Danton as their leader after he marched in front of the 20,000 strong mob	[01:31]
mircea_popescu	glwt.	[01:32]
mircea_popescu	reddit mob is not worth the pixels it's printed on.	[01:32]
decimation	well, one lesson is that Danton had an organization. it is odd that the supposed right-wing supporters of heirarchy are usually out-flanked by their enemies on their left when it comes to organizing the little people	[01:34]
mircea_popescu	decimation i don't really see it the same way. when nanotube was disappeared earlier this month, gribble got replaced within something like a week. seems to me the organisation's fine.	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	of course, the right doesn't generally create unruly mobs of idiots that spout nonsense. this, principally, because the right is not comfortable for idiots.	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	how's this a problem anyway ? pre-bitcoin, pre-gpg, etc, i can see it. today ? who gives a shit ?	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	similarly one could observe that the soviet union had very impressive victory day parades. sure. this, principally, because the soviet citizen had little better to do, either productively, for leisure or for his own safety.	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	i'm not about to regret that reagan didn't make more us workers go to party indoctrination class.	[01:39]
decimation	yeah that's a good point, the heirarchy is too busy running actual business - it doesn't have time to prance around and promise the moon to the sans-culottes	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	everyone i know that's not dumb is busy doing shit. the people "discussing" on reddit are an entirely different brand. if tomorrow they were replaced with a frog infested pond, what'd happen ?	[01:42]
mircea_popescu	would you even notice that same day ? that week ? ever ?	[01:42]
asciilifeform	pond <<< brekekekex koax koax.	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	"Do you have any anecdotal examples of crypto users on the side lines saying things like,	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	Yes, I personally have lost enthusiasm for recruiting merchants, because I don't know what will happen once 1 MB block size limit is reached, "	[01:43]
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mircea_popescu	dude "lost enthusiasm". for what ? for "recruiting merchants". meanwhile... http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/	[01:43]
assbot	Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yp9fMi )	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	i suppose bitpay "embassy" is still deserted because whatever, people were insecure about what may happen if the bitpie in the sky is smaller than perceived.	[01:44]
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mircea_popescu	Luke-Jr Name a single Bitcoin expert who thinks 1 MB blocks will be sufficient forever? << 1mb blocks MAY be sufficient forever.	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	the onus to show that they DEFINITELY WILL NOT BE is on you lot of "bitcoin experts"	[01:46]
decimation	asciilifeform: maryland has a surplus of frogs & toads	[01:47]
mircea_popescu	;;gettrust mircea_popescu luceo	[01:48]
gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user luceo: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 5 via 10 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=luceo \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=luceo \| Rated since: Tue Jun 12 14:09:09 2012	[01:48]
asciilifeform	decimation: wash., d.c. area specifically. swamp.	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	this idiocy with "Assurance contracts" takes the cake.	[01:49]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2015#973605	[01:49]
assbot	Logged on 11-01-2015 22:42:34; decimation: at any rate, this is a problem for actual miners to solve in the future, and they will likely despise any actions taken today on their behalf	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	"hey listen, we have a perfect system that works in proved practice to reward miners. let's replace it with some libertard idiocy that a) provedly never worked in practice and b) for well understood theoretical reasons that we don't like so they don't really exist"	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	assurance contracts. srsly. what's next, replace wallets with obamacare website ?	[01:50]
mircea_popescu	will totally work. unless you know, for a few months when launched. and well... if you make a wallet that's not your walletr.	[01:50]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00047253 = 14.1759 BTC [+]	[01:51]
decimation	10,000 unborn souls vote for hardfork	[01:52]
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mircea_popescu	heh	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	if i wasn't so disinterested i'd have someone mine reddit to get a relative comparison of votes/words wasted on gavin's coin vs neobee	[01:54]
mircea_popescu	the same sort of rabid idiocy seems to be wafting from both of them. half curious if the same "pr" company hired for both.	[01:54]
*	contrapumpkin is now known as copumpkin	[01:56]
undata	and libertarians claim to be goldbugs...	[01:57]
undata	yet they want bitcoin to be the mastercard network	[01:58]
asciilifeform	'they' 'want'	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	quite. no they, and nothing's being particularly wanted.	[01:58]
undata	this guy, horde of upvoting minions, whoever	[01:58]
*	undata is merely wondering why anyone would think "supah fast transactions" and not "immutable unit of value for all time" is the thing	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	because that anyone has no money.	[02:01]
mod6	yeah, they're spenders, not savers.	[02:02]
asciilifeform	this seems more like a question of who folks imagine themselves as, rather than what they are	[02:02]
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asciilifeform	i would dare to suggest that plenty of folks who haven't anything to save, for instance, like the proper bitcoin quite a bit	[02:03]
asciilifeform	but others, with enormous incomes (denominated in, e.g., usd) - hate.	[02:04]
mircea_popescu	good point.	[02:04]
mircea_popescu	" phantomcircuit Diablo-D3, the real danger here is convincing people who dont truly understand the problem that something is safe which is in fact extremely risky"	[02:05]
*	asciilifeform is not a rich fellow, and was much poorer still when he read the satoshi paper	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	basically, gavin has pretty much 0 support in -dev.	[02:05]
mircea_popescu	but he's willing to buy people drinks in san juan, who knows, maybe then.	[02:05]
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asciilifeform	speaking of satoshi's paper, i learned by accident that someone sells a printed & bound 'collected satoshi crap'	[02:06]
asciilifeform	not incl. the 0.1 source, unfortunately	[02:06]
mircea_popescu	i don't think the 0.1 source was ever actually released	[02:08]
*	asciilifeform distinctly recalls a tarball with that label	[02:08]
asciilifeform	http://www.bitcointrading.com/forum/bitcoin-clients/original-bitcoin-source-code-archives	[02:09]
assbot	Original Bitcoin Source Code Archives - bitcointrading.com - bitcoin trading buy/sell classifieds forum ... ( http://bit.ly/1JbFlwM )	[02:09]
asciilifeform	^ seems to have it	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	uh	[02:10]
asciilifeform	i once worked with a fellow who had a poster containing, in reasonably readable print, linux 0.01 kernel.	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	you know, that's the guy that came up with a glbse asset that consisted of buying lottery tickets ?	[02:10]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: for all i know, it's hitler.	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	but anyway, i rly dun recall, mebbe it was after all.	[02:10]
mod6	lol	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	i had thought it started with 2.something	[02:11]
asciilifeform	0.1.3 seems to be the earliest mass-circulated version.	[02:11]
asciilifeform	https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/tree/master/src << claims to be a copy	[02:11]
assbot	original-bitcoin/src at master · trottier/original-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JbFU9S )	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	ah ok 1.3	[02:12]
asciilifeform	incidentally, it would be very spiffy if someone here (specifically) has a vintage copy of either of these on his disk, from those days, and would be willing to sign it.	[02:12]
asciilifeform	lottery hitler probably has not the brain mass to doctor his archive, but why leave it to fate.	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform incidentally, re go : you know the only other bitcoin implementation is btcd, written in go ?	[02:13]
mod6	asciilifeform: werd	[02:13]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there was another, iirc, in c	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	i thought that one died.	[02:13]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i have not tested it	[02:13]
*	Father_MAXI is now known as CoraCrisT	[02:14]
asciilifeform	there is also something that looked, on cursory inspection, quite like a bitcoind, in python	[02:14]
asciilifeform	haven't tried it either.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	that died a year prior to the cx	[02:14]
*	CoraCrisT is now known as CoraCrisT_	[02:15]
*	CoraCrisT_ is now known as CoraCrisT	[02:15]
asciilifeform	there is even, apparently, a haskell version.	[02:15]
asciilifeform	(haven't tried, ...)	[02:15]
asciilifeform	https://github.com/haskoin/haskoin	[02:15]
assbot	haskoin/haskoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1E0BLr1 )	[02:15]
mod6	bitcoin in C is sexy	[02:16]
asciilifeform	now, whether even one of these (or ones not mentioned here) is fit for use in anger, on the battlefield - i cannot say.	[02:17]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00045216 = 28.1244 BTC [-] {2}	[02:28]
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*	assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard	[02:28]
Pierre_Rochard	“errything fine up there ?” <- debatable, I’ve been studying tax accounting, which can be deleterious to the mind	[02:29]
mircea_popescu	o there he is.	[02:30]
Pierre_Rochard	The point I was trying to make is that Gavinonomics has no notion of demand elasticity for bitcoin transactions	[02:31]
mircea_popescu	how's the "talking sense at redditards" business going ?	[02:31]
Pierre_Rochard	horribly, it’s a particularly terrible form of procrastination	[02:31]
mircea_popescu	it doesn't seem to have much notion of economics in any sense.	[02:31]
mircea_popescu	hehe i hear that a lot.	[02:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44800 @ 0.00047758 = 21.3956 BTC [+] {2}	[02:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00048855 = 2.4672 BTC [+]	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	;;seen bitstein	[02:56]
gribble	bitstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 5 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: https://twitter.com/a_greenberg/status/555827037488037889	[02:56]
ben_vulpes	davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims. << was this a proxy attack on israel?	[02:57]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes for all i know it was just overflowing idiocy.	[02:57]
ben_vulpes	it being the jewish center?	[02:57]
ben_vulpes	the bombing?	[02:57]
mircea_popescu	well both.	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	there's no discernible benefit to it or anything.	[02:59]
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ben_vulpes	any reason to doubt that the usg exchanges and other scum are 'on board' (for what that's worth) ? << it is going to be fascinating to see how coinbase et. al are going to handle this	[03:00]
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mircea_popescu	coinbase made its round, so it may have a little leeway.	[03:01]
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mircea_popescu	!up coderwill	[03:08]
-assbot-	You voiced coderwill for 30 minutes.	[03:08]
*	assbot gives voice to coderwill	[03:08]
ben_vulpes	http://bitbet.us/bet/1093/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-in/ << could such a block get 50 confirmations and a reorg happen later? that's not even 10 hours, right?	[03:13]
assbot	BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 0.13 B (11%) on Yes, 1.07 B (89%) on No \| closing in 9 months 4 weeks \| weight: 94`308 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1sXn2t1 )	[03:13]
ben_vulpes	sure enough, brief discussion in teh lawgs	[03:14]
ben_vulpes	then off into a discussion about bitbet mathematical/statistical arcana	[03:15]
ben_vulpes	god i love you guys	[03:15]
mircea_popescu	did i miss teh log ?!	[03:15]
ben_vulpes	lol did you miss it	[03:16]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-01-2015#970329 << you fucking wrote it	[03:16]
assbot	Logged on 08-01-2015 22:31:37; mircea_popescu: "Gavincoin orphan chain to reach 50 blocks before being abandoned" is kinda not the same as "Blockchain will increase"	[03:16]
mircea_popescu	that's ... two weeks ago ?	[03:16]
ben_vulpes	memory loss setting in already?	[03:16]
mircea_popescu	no but i was expecting today's log.	[03:17]
mircea_popescu	i thought you were up to date!!1	[03:17]
ben_vulpes	anyways	[03:17]
mircea_popescu	anyway, read today first, get back to 8th after.	[03:17]
ben_vulpes	no no i went searching for that	[03:17]
mircea_popescu	oh oh	[03:18]
ben_vulpes	i'm just sitting here imagining the ways gavincoin could play out	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	dude im tired.	[03:18]
ben_vulpes	reading logs	[03:18]
ben_vulpes	500 behind	[03:18]
ben_vulpes	you're tired?	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	yeah now i see what you mean :)	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	took me a while.	[03:18]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.000465 = 5.6265 BTC [-]	[03:21]
ben_vulpes	[] not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max.. << lol i love the stream of consciousness as Luke-Jr reads through source	[03:25]
mircea_popescu	https://blog.conformal.com/the-bitcoin-consensus-red-herring/	[03:29]
assbot	The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring \| Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6yNkL )	[03:29]
mircea_popescu	guy actually has a point.	[03:29]
mircea_popescu	"There is currently no way to guarantee that any two versions of Bitcoin software, whether they are two different versions of Bitcoin Core, two different versions of alternative implementations, a version of Bitcoin Core versus a version of an alternative implementation, or even two copies of the same version of Bitcoin Core built with different compiler versions are in exact consensus agreement. Doing so is incredibly	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	difficult and borders on impossible. The issue is implementation independent."	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	"The current solution as proposed by Bitcoin Core is, when you get right down to it, “let’s just be really careful with code changes and hope for the best”. There is no real disaster recovery or prevention plan. Yes, there is ongoing work to split the consensus critical bits out into a library and I think this is a good idea and am glad to see it happening. However, it still does nothing to address the real fun	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	damental issue stated above nor does it provide disaster recovery or prevention."	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile, gavin's top priority is... you've guessed it.	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	every single version to date broke something.	[03:30]
mircea_popescu	usually not that big. sometimes fucking ridiculous (like the one time when they changed versioning)	[03:31]
mircea_popescu	and yet the "uncertaininty" is generated by imaginary problems. not by this.	[03:32]
mircea_popescu	sort-of like the man who gets drenched in volcanic eruptions every single week, worrying about meteors falling.	[03:33]
ben_vulpes	changed versioning?	[03:33]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes recall when blocks went from v1 to v2 ?	[03:34]
ben_vulpes	i don't know if i was around at that point.	[03:34]
ben_vulpes	wasn't even keeping logs at that point	[03:34]
mircea_popescu	sometime in 2012 an uncontroversial fork was put in, so that sometime in 2013 blocks are mined with version 2 instead of version 1.	[03:35]
ben_vulpes	lol so then fork?	[03:35]
mircea_popescu	except for no particular reason the check was against a signed value (the very careful part), which inadvertently reduced a scarce resource	[03:35]
mircea_popescu	no, just narrower header.	[03:35]
ben_vulpes	huh	[03:36]
ben_vulpes	got a writeup somewhere? i don't understand the implications straight off.	[03:36]
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mircea_popescu	https://blog.conformal.com/the-bitcoin-consensus-red-herring/#comment-689	[03:42]
assbot	The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring \| Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6Az5x )	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	pity conformal isn't better known.	[03:42]
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mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes good start : http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/20#l1421788665	[03:43]
assbot	BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6ALlh )	[03:43]
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ben_vulpes	:(	[03:51]
ben_vulpes	that is a lot of log	[03:51]
ben_vulpes	and i want to nap	[03:51]
mircea_popescu	https://twitter.com/adam3us << guy that thinks he invented bitcoin	[03:52]
assbot	Adam Back (@adam3us) \| Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6C5V6 )	[03:52]
mircea_popescu	wholla lotta dumb in his funny looking head otherwise.	[03:53]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[12:32]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[12:32]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[12:32]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[12:32]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[12:33]
mircea_popescu	jesus sifting from all these offline messages left by people who believe enough in the gavincoin to want to buy it for .75 bitcoins each.	[12:34]
mircea_popescu	THERE'S EXACTLY ZERO OF THEM	[12:34]
mircea_popescu	apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today.	[12:35]
mircea_popescu	fatlogic.	[12:35]
BingoBoingo	Maybe they aren't sure enough yet that there will be a Gavincoin given -dev doesn't seem keen on his stuff.	[12:43]
mircea_popescu	so poorly managed, bitcoin core.	[12:45]
thestringpuller	lol. i'm the only anarchist in the office.	[12:45]
thestringpuller	trying to find another one.	[12:45]
mircea_popescu	roughly in the position of a hunting party that's out there building sandcastles and collecting flowers.	[12:45]
thestringpuller	too bad conformal is written in Go	[12:46]
thestringpuller	(jk)	[12:46]
mircea_popescu	nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb.	[12:46]
BingoBoingo	Yeah they need to find another sporting venture, because it is perfectly fine to be a fishing party while sitting around drinking beer.	[12:46]
mircea_popescu	now that's a point.	[12:46]
kakobrekla	1. otc order book is dead, 2. noone is taking offer seriously, 3. everything else is delusion	[12:47]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla yeah, and they all work because 4. none of these derps actually matters in bitcoin.	[12:47]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: nah, writing everthing in c++ is dumb. << wasn't bitcoin-qt 0.1 in Visual C++? that was even worse	[12:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25950 @ 0.00048323 = 12.5398 BTC [-] {2}	[12:48]
mircea_popescu	"oh i have 50 btc in a wallet somewhere, i contributed 5000 lines of code to bitcoin core that will have to be taken out later at considerable expense and i go to all th conferences if some scammer is paying the airfare (coach)"	[12:48]
thestringpuller	i remember opening source code back in 2010 on my machine, and seeing everything chmod 777	[12:48]
mircea_popescu	this is what is supposed to impress me ?	[12:48]
BingoBoingo	I mean I have no problem with killing animals for food, but I prefer fishing to hunting because fishing has better complimentary activities you can multitask with it.	[12:48]
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mircea_popescu	thestringpuller monolitic c at least had some rationale back in 1980. but c++ is not c, and for that matter the year's not 1980 either	[12:49]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo i don't know any fat hunters. i know precious few slender fishermen.	[12:49]
thestringpuller	well anything you do in C++ you can do in C. like that song (anything you can do I can do better)	[12:49]
mircea_popescu	this is doubtful, but i'll let asciilifeform argue it.	[12:50]
BingoBoingo	Here I tend to see lots of fat hunters.	[12:50]
thestringpuller	BingoBoingo: This is also the rationale behind a baseball game on a hot summer day. Grrr...we need to go to one this ear	[12:50]
kakobrekla	what a landing page http://shrani.si/f/2M/LH/4MydJP6h/btcjam.png	[12:50]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1xXfFgP )	[12:50]
kakobrekla	ultra retarded on at least 2 levels	[12:50]
mircea_popescu	jesus.	[12:50]
mircea_popescu	yeah, totally need more adoption so the various scammers with bootstrap websites can burn more noobs.	[12:51]
thestringpuller	^- this is becoming pervasive in corporate world too	[12:52]
*	xanthyos	[12:52]
thestringpuller	marketing design sector was told, "You need to incorporate more photography"	[12:52]
thestringpuller	"in the website"	[12:52]
kakobrekla	how do they know for sure its gonna go up and how do you save if its gonna go up if you borrow now i dunno is the loan fiat based ?	[12:52]
thestringpuller	"Why so we can use more bandwidth?"	[12:52]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla it's btcjam : if you don't simply forget all about your website account, you can always just not pay later on.	[12:53]
kakobrekla	aha hehe	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	but yeah, pretty epic.	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	atually ima do a write-up :D	[12:53]
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davout	thestringpuller: i thought visual c++ was just an ide	[13:00]
mircea_popescu	nah it's a language	[13:01]
danielpbarron	mircea_popescu> apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today. << should better offer it at 25% over, otherwise they are admitting their coin has the lower value	[13:03]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron that's what im doing.	[13:03]
mircea_popescu	pay 750 bitcoin today, receive 1000 gavincoins.	[13:03]
danielpbarron	ok so make it, pay 1000 bitcoin today, get 750 gavincoin later; that way theirs is framed as the more valuable one	[13:05]
mircea_popescu	o.O	[13:06]
mircea_popescu	you do that ? i'm curious to see this one.	[13:06]
mats	https://doar-e.github.io/presentations/securityday2015/SecDay-Lille-2015-Axel-0vercl0k-Souchet.html	[13:07]
assbot	Security Day 2015 - Lille 1 ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXkHtJ )	[13:07]
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*	danielpbarron is just being silly	[13:07]
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thestringpuller	davout: i guess more the windows bindings. Like MFC etc.	[13:10]
thestringpuller	davout: i use VC as a catch all like VB	[13:11]
*	assbot gives voice to artifexd	[13:11]
davout	ah, so it looks like c++ with a bunch of extra packages	[13:11]
thestringpuller	yea. original bitcoin source code has tons of that in it	[13:12]
thestringpuller	i think asciilifeform submitted patch to gut all of it out.	[13:12]
artifexd	6 days of logs... smh	[13:12]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53866 @ 0.00049795 = 26.8226 BTC [+] {2}	[13:14]
nubbins`	oh my god, what if that wood collector guy illegally imports wood and Blazedout419 was working undercover with customs?!	[13:14]
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BingoBoingo	nubbins`: Link?	[13:15]
danielpbarron	didn't WC brag about having access to illegal woods?	[13:16]
BingoBoingo	davout: Also different standard libraries. Microsoft Visual X language is almost always different from X proper.	[13:16]
davout	BingoBoingo: yeah, so a different language for all practical purposes	[13:20]
BingoBoingo	davout: Yeah. Even different in the most basic things, fucking iostream.h	[13:21]
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nubbins`	BingoBoingo j/k	[13:23]
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nubbins`	i know he's not a shill and he's not a fool, but beyond that... shrug	[13:24]
nubbins`	;;rated Blazedout419	[13:24]
gribble	You rated user Blazedout419 on Sun Mar 2 12:59:46 2014, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: trusted trader.	[13:24]
BingoBoingo	http://www.reaxxion.com/4437/4chans-moot-now-forcing-mods-to-sign-legal-contract-that-reveals-their-identity	[13:25]
assbot	4Chan’s Moot Now Forcing Mods To Sign Legal Contract That Reveals Their Identity ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXpkUH )	[13:25]
BingoBoingo	nubbins`: He's kind of anti-kako. While anything kako calls scam is scam andything Blazedout419 gravitates towards tends to burn him.	[13:25]
nubbins`	but kako's so friendly.	[13:26]
danielpbarron	he probably wanted to show off having lots of BTC to his forum buddies / that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality	[13:26]
BingoBoingo	danielpbarron: that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality << tends to be what burns Blazedout419	[13:27]
kakobrekla	maybe he was reading #b-a on how art keeps getting record high prices and battles inflation and though he was getting a piece of hedge	[13:28]
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thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: regarding paygrade << have you ever seen Inside Man?	[13:30]
mircea_popescu	davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date.	[13:30]
davout	mircea_popescu: "Cette entrée a été publiée dans Bitcoin le janvier 21, 2015"	[13:30]
mircea_popescu	damn i missed that.	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	"The fundamental pain point here, is that Gavin insists on everyone being able to get in, instead of allowing a sane transaction fee market to emerge, by letting the blocks actually fill-up."	[13:31]
thestringpuller	davout: makes me want to pick up french again.	[13:31]
davout	it's true it's not very clear though, being at the bottom	[13:31]
thestringpuller	so I can read Snowpiercer in french.	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	here's the thing : the vc circus has created an entire culture of these idiots. "grow fast make no money sell out"	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	maybe this has merits as a website develoipment paradigm	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	dubious.	[13:32]
davout	also "le janvier 21, 2015" isn't correct french :/	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	it CERTAINLY has no value as a bitcoin development paradigm, because well... BITCOIN IS NOT FOR SALE.	[13:32]
davout	thestringpuller: what's snowpiercer?	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	not in the sense where some vcs come on later, pat us on the head, give each a car and wipe us out.	[13:32]
nubbins`	snowpiercer, lel	[13:32]
mircea_popescu	bitcoin is here to make those vcs beggars.	[13:32]
nubbins`	THE LAST SURVIVING HUMANS ARE STUCK ON A TRAIN THAT NEVER STOPS	[13:32]
nubbins`	SNOWPIERCER	[13:32]
nubbins`	WE SWEAR IT MAKES SENSE	[13:32]
thestringpuller	its called Le Transperceneige	[13:33]
thestringpuller	in franche	[13:33]
thestringpuller	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Transperceneige	[13:33]
thestringpuller	france***	[13:33]
*	chetty repeats self "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"	[13:33]
davout	oic	[13:33]
nubbins`	interestingly, they choose to waste their fuel on locomotion rather than as a heat source	[13:33]
nubbins`	because if all that's left is a train, you better believe we're gonna make it run!	[13:33]
thestringpuller	nubbins`: the train runs on perpetual motion donchakno?	[13:34]
nubbins`	o	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	" Ah— so you’re saying we should decrease the 1MB limit, so there are higher fees and miners make more money?"	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	such facetious bs.	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	"i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?"	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	no you fucking idiot that there's no other.	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	you are ill qualified to as much as change a fucking version in the bvlocks, let alone the database.	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	stop pretending like you can push walls around and go take your ritalin.	[13:36]
mircea_popescu	jesus fuck.	[13:36]
mats	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2916475/Al-Qaeda-YouTube-video-shows-jihadists-using-Snowden-leaks-evade-Western-surveillance.html	[13:36]
assbot	Al Qaeda's YouTube guide for jihadists \| Daily Mail Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1CgCxhz )	[13:36]
mircea_popescu	actually i suppose thois belongs there.	[13:36]
mats	an idiot's guide to opsec.	[13:37]
mircea_popescu	davout "Votre commentaire est en attente de validation." lmao.	[13:40]
mircea_popescu	webfrench is such lulzfrench	[13:40]
davout	c'est pourtant du français correct :)	[13:40]
*	DreadKnight has quit (Quit: #AncientBeast - Master Your Beasts ( www.AncientBeast.com ))	[13:41]
davout	this is actually lulzier -> "Fièrement propulsé par WordPress"	[13:42]
davout	"Proudly propelled by wordpress"	[13:43]
davout	i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists	[13:45]
thestringpuller	gotta make sure french language stays pure against all the hoodlums and their slang	[13:46]
davout	fuck oui	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	propulse lol	[13:47]
mircea_popescu	does that stricly mean kinetic ?	[13:47]
davout	yes	[13:47]
davout	actually the people from Québec might be even more hardcore protectors of french purity than the people from france	[13:48]
davout	their accent and some of their expressions are extremely cute tho	[13:49]
scoopbot	New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/btcjam-what-starts-as-a-scam-stays-a-scam/	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	http://fr.anco.is/2015/gavineries/ << someone put it up on reddit ? i don't recall if dman was ever there.	[13:50]
assbot	Gavineries \| fr.anco.is ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXwFmX )	[13:50]
thestringpuller	done	[13:51]
davout	mircea_popescu: dunno, didn't do it myself, figured it'd be too good for them and get downvoted anyway	[13:51]
davout	thestringpuller: ty, let's see how that goes	[13:51]
davout	thestringpuller: also link?	[13:51]
mircea_popescu	davout yeah but why should you be spared the sort of idiocy living there.	[13:51]
mircea_popescu	davout anyway, where was this convo ?	[13:52]
mircea_popescu	seems kinda bizarre gavin still pretends like he's had a public discussion about this but so far has not quite got his courage up enough to bring his hairball of non sequiturs, wild jumps and logic holes over here.	[13:52]
davout	mircea_popescu: private, he pm'd me on btctalk after seeing me comment on the fork off thread	[13:53]
mircea_popescu	well, tell him he has a chance to be heard, and learn exactly why he is wrong and generally grow as a person.	[13:53]
thestringpuller	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t6oks/gavineries_irc_discussion_of_the_block_size/	[13:53]
thestringpuller	upvote for visibility etc. etc.	[13:54]
thestringpuller	interested to see low paygraders try to interpret it	[13:54]
thestringpuller	aka redditards	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	paygraders eh ?	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	there's two kind of idiots in this world : the retrograde, and the paygrade.	[13:55]
mircea_popescu	"I’m waiting for somebody to notice us greedy early adopters get a free ride on transaction fees and complain....."	[13:55]
mircea_popescu	that's what "free ride" is now. having built value over time is a "free ride"	[13:55]
mircea_popescu	how dumb does one get ?	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	hey gavin ? YOU ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE. you're pretty much the only one. you're a middling software engineer that is STILL leeching some historical happenstance.,	[13:56]
thestringpuller	this is probably why rappers retire after 30	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you!	[13:56]
thestringpuller	(excluding Jay-Z)	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	jesus.	[13:57]
davout	"if you want to come in #bitcoin-assets and argue a bit your proposal, a bunch of folks would be interested" <<< let's see how that goes	[13:57]
davout	"can’t right now, have a lunch meeting. Happy to another time"	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	no it's perfect, i have a lunch meeting too.	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	ima be back in ~3 hours.	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	would have been a shame to miss all this.	[13:58]
davout	3 hour lunch? what are you? french?	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	oui!	[13:59]
chetty	3 hours is a short quick lunch in Argentina	[13:59]
davout	"gonna get me some subway, see you tomorrow"	[13:59]
thestringpuller	they have subway in france?	[13:59]
davout	the perfect duration for a meal is when the end of the previous one overlaps with the beginning of the next one	[14:00]
thestringpuller	i thought the french frowned upon "american" food	[14:00]
davout	yeah, we have subway	[14:00]
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davout	thestringpuller: yes they do, but they love it	[14:00]
thestringpuller	!b3	[14:01]
thestringpuller	Opps nvm.	[14:01]
*	bigtip (~bigtip@dyn13-135.wireless.vcsu.edu) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[14:06]
mike_c	hmm.. " justanotheruser: but control of coins != ownership of coins"	[14:07]
BingoBoingo	wtf	[14:08]
mike_c	bitcoin-dev is confused about some things.	[14:08]
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mod6	o.O	[14:10]
danielpbarron	it was already posted to reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t49um/mustread_transcript_of_blocksize_discussion_with/	[14:12]
assbot	Must-read: Transcript of block-size discussion with Gavin : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXCr8j )	[14:12]
mike_c	i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them".	[14:12]
mike_c	which isn't really true. and the fact of that will become interesting when mpex takes a side on the hard-fork.	[14:13]
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undata	mike_c: it's that watered down socialist meaning of "own" where it's abstract, not "this is under my control"	[14:15]
undata	"I own this house."	[14:15]
undata	no, the bank and state do	[14:15]
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asciilifeform	!up diametric	[14:23]
*	assbot gives voice to diametric	[14:23]
diametric	yay	[14:25]
diametric	trying to figure out why assbot can't find my key on mit.pgp.edu.	[14:25]
*	Uglux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[14:25]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla ^	[14:25]
kakobrekla	does it take like while before it says it cant find it ?	[14:26]
kakobrekla	eh	[14:26]
kakobrekla	like=while	[14:26]
kakobrekla	a while*	[14:26]
kakobrekla	lol	[14:26]
kakobrekla	like 60 sec, or is it instant	[14:27]
diametric	it instantly says it can't find it	[14:28]
kakobrekla	try in 30 min will you, and if it doenst work then ill do it manually or smth	[14:29]
kakobrekla	i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot	[14:30]
diametric	will do	[14:31]
davout	"Gavin's patience. Wow."	[14:31]
davout	"that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)"	[14:31]
BingoBoingo	And like Ghandi he will try to ruin a good thing.	[14:32]
BingoBoingo	May Gavin be less successful	[14:32]
davout	"You are 100000% correct. It's funny how easy it is to spot a statist who thinks everything should be controlled instead of letting the market do its job."	[14:32]
BingoBoingo	lol https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/557949175435124736	[14:34]
assbot	Brilliant post by /trilema. http://t.co/YS6rOgof1I	[14:34]
BingoBoingo	loling at the name tweeting trilema	[14:34]
*	assbot removes voice from diametric	[14:54]
asciilifeform	!up diametric	[14:54]
*	assbot gives voice to diametric	[14:54]
diametric	tried doing it myself again, came back saying it can't find my fingerprint.	[14:55]
diametric	I'll give it some more time.	[14:55]
diametric	nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts.	[14:56]
nubbins`	tyvm, glad you finally got an account ;D	[14:58]
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diametric	nubbins`: are you actually going to post a video to prove a point to one of his shills/	[15:00]
*	nubbins` shrugs	[15:01]
*	gavinandresen (~gavin@unaffiliated/gavinandresen) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:03]
asciilifeform	!up gavinandresen	[15:03]
*	assbot gives voice to gavinandresen	[15:03]
gavinandresen	howdy y'all	[15:04]
kakobrekla	hi	[15:04]
felipelalli	hi!	[15:05]
gavinandresen	I came here so you can tell me how I’m going to ruin bitcoin (again…)	[15:06]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu awake ?	[15:06]
*	rithm is now known as OMG_20MB_BLOCKS_	[15:06]
*	OMG_20MB_BLOCKS_ is now known as rithm	[15:06]
davout	gavinandresen: hello	[15:07]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#986141	[15:07]
assbot	Logged on 21-01-2015 16:54:23; mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours.	[15:07]
felipelalli	gavinandresen: when was the first time that you have "ruined" bitcoin?	[15:12]
gavinandresen	felipelalli: when we did BIP16 to make multisig wallets easy to deploy	[15:12]
gavinandresen	… that was a soft fork, not a hard fork, but it still caused people to accuse me of trying to destroy Bitcoin	[15:13]
davout	felipelalli: that was a soft fork	[15:13]
*	ben_vulpes sniff	[15:14]
*	ben_vulpes sniffs	[15:14]
ben_vulpes	i smell drama	[15:14]
felipelalli	thank you	[15:14]
ben_vulpes	is a soft fork not a breaking of bitcoin in some way?	[15:15]
gavinandresen	a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected.	[15:15]
kakobrekla	ben_vulpes for drama you need GA and MP present at same time.	[15:15]
gavinandresen	a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain	[15:15]
davout	ben_vulpes: a soft fork is making the set of valid blocks smaller, a hard fork is the opposite	[15:15]
gavinandresen	MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free.	[15:16]
ben_vulpes	ah, so a breaking of the protocol	[15:16]
gavinandresen	ben_vulpes: yes; a soft fork makes the protocol more strict. You have to hard fork to make it more lenient.	[15:16]
felipelalli	davout: nice explanation. It gives a good article in qntra.net	[15:16]
ben_vulpes	well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way.	[15:17]
felipelalli	increase the 21M max coins is possible through a hard fork?	[15:17]
gavinandresen	ben_vulpes: really? Have read https://gist.github.com/sipa/5d12c343746dad376c80 ???	[15:17]
assbot	Proposed DERSIG BIP ... ( http://bit.ly/183BYN5 )	[15:17]
ben_vulpes	around here, gavinandresen.	[15:18]
ben_vulpes	not wherever you people get together and wank about "innovation" in the blockchain	[15:18]
gavinandresen	okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake.	[15:18]
ben_vulpes	the topic under discussion is the moronic megablock shit, not signature rules.	[15:19]
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ben_vulpes	"oh look we're also talking about improving things over there so you may as well roll over on the megablocks issue"	[15:19]
ben_vulpes	no. not happening.	[15:20]
felipelalli	gavinandresen: theymos said: << (...) Make the change now, but have it take place at a particular date or block number 2 years in the future. Then when the change actually happens, everyone will already be updated because almost no one uses 2-year-old software. Yes, 2 years is a long time, but we'll survive. >> is that possible and why it is a good or bad idea?	[15:20]
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*	assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard	[15:20]
gavinandresen	felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan.	[15:20]
ben_vulpes	!gettrust assbot felipelalli	[15:21]
assbot	Trust relationship from user assbot to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. \| http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/felipelalli \| http://w.b-a.link/user/felipelalli	[15:21]
kakobrekla	that like "dont worry we have 2 years to 'fight'" and then "o shit did we miss it?" 2 years later.	[15:21]
felipelalli	gavinandresen: do you prefer different? If yes, why?	[15:21]
ben_vulpes	!rate felipelalli -1 snr penalty	[15:21]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/c71454916252d225	[15:21]
asciilifeform	the philosophy of the slow poisoner, vs. a fellow willing to knife in broad daylight	[15:21]
davout	gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code	[15:21]
ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.felipelalli.-1:d220de3c0270b6e3f3f923fa6dbfd6daa164792bb1919eccdca66d6aedf87c4c	[15:22]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: snr penalty	[15:22]
ben_vulpes		[15:22]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64000 @ 0.00047807 = 30.5965 BTC [-] {2}	[15:22]
ben_vulpes	!down felipelalli	[15:22]
*	assbot removes voice from felipelalli	[15:22]
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kakobrekla	well at least down works.	[15:23]
davout	that escalated rather quickly	[15:24]
ben_vulpes	obvious plant is obvious	[15:24]
*	assbot removes voice from diametric	[15:24]
asciilifeform	!up diametric	[15:24]
*	assbot gives voice to diametric	[15:24]
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asciilifeform	gavinandresen: have you met http://thebitcoin.foundation ?	[15:25]
ben_vulpes	in any event, gavinandresen, there'll be no more forks from you. you blew it back in the day, and you lost the initiative on this one months ago.	[15:25]
assbot	..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( http://bit.ly/183CXwF )	[15:25]
*	Kushedout is now known as Kushed	[15:25]
Pierre_Rochard	my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.”	[15:27]
ben_vulpes	horseshit.	[15:28]
ben_vulpes	there is only bitcoin.	[15:28]
Pierre_Rochard	My response to that is two-fold: if maximizing revenue to miners is our goal, then shifting marginal demand to substitutes is fine.	[15:28]
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ben_vulpes	there is only bitcoin, and if one cannot afford the miners fees for inclusion in a block, one does not need to transfer bitcoins enough.	[15:29]
Pierre_Rochard	Second, there is distance between the total transaction costs of Bitcoin vs the substitutes. So there’s inelasticity in demand	[15:29]
Pierre_Rochard	So here’s my hypothesis: if we allow the network to hit the block size limit, then we’ll see the transaction fee revenue growth accelerate, up until the point that substitution begins happening in earnest, then the fee revenue growth will decelerate or stall.	[15:30]
ben_vulpes	let's at least hit the steady state behavior before starting to diddle with important economic variables like block size.	[15:31]
davout	Pierre_Rochard: shut up and stop making so much sense	[15:31]
Pierre_Rochard	that would indicate that demand is inelastic, and it would tell us where the upper bound on bitcoin tx fees roughly is	[15:31]
Pierre_Rochard	all else equal	[15:31]
ben_vulpes	yeah, and again we're at the "snapshot of a dynamic thing	[15:32]
ben_vulpes	" state	[15:32]
ben_vulpes	[] nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb. << write it in every language, discover interesting bugs.	[15:33]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit	[15:33]
Pierre_Rochard	Now this part may be controversial for some members of b-a, but it’s at the point where fee revenue growth decelerates that the block size should be increased marginally, if the goal is to maximize fee revenue	[15:33]
davout	gavinandresen: why would miners impose a self limit?	[15:33]
gavinandresen	davout: today, because bigger blocks take a while to propagate.	[15:33]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today	[15:33]
*	assbot removes voice from gavinandresen	[15:33]
ben_vulpes	Pierre_Rochard: you assume some kind of "goal", and that there's a "we" with it.	[15:33]
asciilifeform	!up gavinandresen	[15:34]
*	assbot gives voice to gavinandresen	[15:34]
Pierre_Rochard	!up gavinandresen	[15:34]
*	assbot gives voice to gavinandresen	[15:34]
davout	isn't there a plan to make block propagation O(1) by using headers-first?	[15:34]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: what effect do you suppose your enlarged blocks would have on the number of operating full nodes ?	[15:34]
gavinandresen	davout: when that is fixed by protocol changes, they will have some minimum costs to processing transations plus a little profit	[15:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62448 @ 0.00048429 = 30.2429 BTC [+] {2}	[15:35]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: see my technical roadmap post for what needs to be done to increase number of full nodes	[15:35]
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davout	gavinandresen: you're not really answering the question regarding headers-first	[15:35]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: if there are no network protocol changes, then we’re in trouble, because number of full nodes may continue to decline	[15:35]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: do you intend to donate hard disks to everyone running a full node ?	[15:35]
gavinandresen	davout: sorry, missed, the question, real-world distraction…	[15:35]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: or how otherwise compensate for a 20-fold growth in storage requirement	[15:35]
gavinandresen	davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes"	[15:36]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: storage is not the bottleneck/cost, bandwidth is.	[15:36]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: again, go read the technical road map post, section on pruning the chain	[15:37]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: i have read it.	[15:37]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: and disagree with the entire concept of 'pruning'	[15:37]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: okey dokey.	[15:37]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: if Satoshi hadn’t slapped on a 1MB blocksize limit, would you be lobbying for a hardfork now to impose one?	[15:39]
gavinandresen	… execuse me, soft fork....	[15:39]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: yes, I would	[15:39]
artifexd	!s rsa backdoor	[15:39]
assbot	5 results for 'rsa backdoor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=rsa+backdoor	[15:39]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: ok, exactly what would you propose?	[15:39]
asciilifeform	artifexd: the linked article was a very basic example of 'kleptography' (see our old thread)	[15:40]
asciilifeform	artifexd: there are considerably subtler ways to diddle rsa key generation.	[15:40]
ben_vulpes	this is a distraction and poor logic.	[15:40]
ben_vulpes	there is a 1mb limit.	[15:40]
ben_vulpes	we are not considering counterfactuals.	[15:40]
artifexd	Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here.	[15:40]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: that we don’t increase the limit until we see what happens to total fee revenue growth after a few months of full blocks	[15:40]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: I think we’re there: http://hashingit.com/analysis/39-the-myth-of-the-megabyte-bitcoin-block	[15:41]
assbot	The Myth Of The Megabyte Bitcoin Block ... ( http://bit.ly/1xz3jws )	[15:41]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: the 0.10 release’s wallet code includes floating fees, so over the next couple months we should get a much better idea of what is happening fee-wise.	[15:42]
Pierre_Rochard	then let’s stay there for six months to collect the data	[15:42]
Pierre_Rochard	^ great	[15:42]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen: the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage.	[15:43]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: what information will we get that will influence how large to make blocks?	[15:43]
ben_vulpes	in fact the entire wallet model is completely broken.	[15:43]
ben_vulpes	the moronic quest to make the thing occupy as little space on disk as possible precluded you people from selecting a queryable db	[15:44]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size....	[15:44]
ben_vulpes	and so, you had to track "relevant transactions" in the wallet.	[15:44]
gavinandresen	ben_vulpes: “patches welcome” Alex Morcos has a patch pending with better fee estimation code.	[15:44]
ben_vulpes	then you got hosed with the whole "change address" debacle.	[15:44]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: they go from little space, to infinite space, as circumstances dictate	[15:44]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: fee revenue growth, if it accelerates then demand for btc transactions is relatively inelastic, the point at which it declerates indicates where substitution starts happening. If it’s right away, then you’re right on the economics. If its after a period of faster growth, then we can see what bitcoin transaction fee the market will bear before switching to substitutes	[15:45]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal.	[15:45]
*	nubbins` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[15:45]
ben_vulpes	and our stake in the ground (0.5.3) is our indictment of everything that your people have done for the past umpteen months.	[15:46]
ben_vulpes	it's unnecessary and i reject it.	[15:46]
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asciilifeform	gavinandresen: we have here an entire project dedicated to undoing everything you and your associates have ever done to bitcoin.	[15:46]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: but why would we want to hit the “then substitutes start happening” when we’re in Bitcoin’s infancy?	[15:46]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen: and we have the guns, coin and code on our side.	[15:47]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: Seems to me it is better to do everything we can to encourage widespread adoption right now.	[15:47]
ben_vulpes	that is to say, "god".	[15:47]
asciilifeform	what, precisely, are these 'substitutes' ?	[15:47]
asciilifeform	i'd much like to know	[15:47]
asciilifeform	cowrie shells? reichsmarks? u.s. dollars ?	[15:47]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: because the substitution would just be happening at the margin	[15:47]
asciilifeform	or scamchains	[15:47]
*	smidge (smidge@HSI-KBW-46-223-57-99.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:47]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be.	[15:47]
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asciilifeform	('schelling point' dictates that there can be precisely one blockchain.)	[15:48]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: But we’d get probably at least six months, maybe a year or two of substitution because it takes time to roll out a hard forking change	[15:48]
asciilifeform	again, substitution with what ?	[15:48]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough	[15:48]
ben_vulpes	want to talk about what's hampering adoption?	[15:49]
ben_vulpes	stale wallet backups that your asshats are responsible for.	[15:49]
ben_vulpes	non deterministic transaction generation.	[15:49]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: okey dokey. What if you’re wrong?	[15:49]
ben_vulpes	KV stores for a complex data set.	[15:49]
ben_vulpes	the list goes on.	[15:49]
ben_vulpes	and you insist on "adding features" instead of fixing your mistakes.	[15:49]
gavinandresen	Anybody be offended if I ignore ben_vulpes? distracting me….	[15:50]
ben_vulpes	ha yeah please	[15:50]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: then we see an acceleration of adoption of an altcoin / altcoins in general and react accordingly	[15:50]
ben_vulpes	don't address any of the only valid points being made here.	[15:50]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: But you just said you want to let fees go up high enough so, at the margin, some people ARE turned away.	[15:50]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: if you only answer one of my question, pray tell, what are the 'substitutes' ?	[15:50]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: where might one find some.	[15:51]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: that’s right, that’s the signal to increase the block size limit	[15:51]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: So, lets say we do see fees rise. How far do we let them rise? Who decides?	[15:51]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: i can't afford 'mercedes' so my 'honda' is a fairly good substitute for the machine. but where might one obtain a cheaper, more plentiful ersatz substitute for bitcoin ?	[15:51]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen: you cannot construct this conversation on the foundation of fees. you cannot possibly know how fees will behave in steady state or in perpetually inflating block size state.	[15:52]
ben_vulpes	you've lost all support for these large blocks in -dev	[15:52]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: at some point they stop rising because they’re too high for the marginal transactor	[15:52]
ben_vulpes	you never had any support in -assets	[15:52]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: substitutes for Bitcoin are altcoins, sidechains, off-chain transactions, credit cards, wire transfers…..	[15:52]
ben_vulpes	give. up.	[15:52]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: except that these systems are not substitutes for bitcoin.	[15:52]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: they don't do the same job.	[15:53]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: in theory the miners would decide, in practice the core devs	[15:53]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: none of the items you mentioned is a stable, noninflationary, decentralized store of value.	[15:53]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: unfortunately, the experience for the marginal transactor is terrible: their transactions just never, ever confirm. Their coins get tied up…	[15:54]
asciilifeform	turd is not a substitute for sausage, despite the topological similarities.	[15:54]
asciilifeform	regardless of any perceived shortage of sausage.	[15:54]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life	[15:54]
*	assbot removes voice from diametric	[15:55]
asciilifeform	!up diametric	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen: nobody who matters gives a shit about the marginal user.	[15:55]
*	assbot gives voice to diametric	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	and their transactions don't get tied up forever.	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	eventually they mature and are prioritized.	[15:55]
ben_vulpes	this is FUD, plain and simple.	[15:56]
ben_vulpes	fucking drop it.	[15:56]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue	[15:56]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody	[15:56]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: I think that our disagreement on that premise precludes agreeing on anything downstream of that	[15:56]
ben_vulpes	Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired.	[15:57]
ben_vulpes	again.	[15:57]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: you’re probably right. Are you a miner yourself?	[15:57]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-01-2015#973570	[15:57]
assbot	Logged on 11-01-2015 22:33:39; kakobrekla: how do other envision the future when reward goes towards 0. either a btc is worth half a planet or the fees amount per block go up a few orders of magnitude or network is dead	[15:57]
kakobrekla	which ?	[15:57]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations	[15:58]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: what do you think of my argument that hash rate and fees are apples and oranges? That people will substitute away from fee-paying transactions to other solutions that use the block chain, which means trying to maximize fees means no guarantee that there will be enough hash rate to secure the chain?	[16:00]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: 'other solutions that use the block chain' ? please elaborate.	[16:01]
kakobrekla	>altcoins, sidechains	[16:01]
asciilifeform	scamchains.	[16:01]
gavinandresen	not altcoins— centralized services like Coinbase. Or sidechains.	[16:01]
asciilifeform	how many need to implode before folks open a game theory textbook and understand that the correct number of blockchains is one ?	[16:02]
asciilifeform	and what kind of brain damage does it take to see a centralized whatever as any kind of functional substitute for bitcoin ?	[16:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00049015 = 1.2254 BTC [+]	[16:02]
kakobrekla	coinbase and the like can be poof gone in one day	[16:02]
kakobrekla	too slow i am, this cake is hindering me	[16:03]
ben_vulpes	!up lobbes	[16:03]
*	assbot gives voice to lobbes	[16:03]
lobbes	gavinandresen: Why are you so set on this 'widespread' adoption notion? It is never going to happen	[16:04]
*	assbot removes voice from gavinandresen	[16:04]
ben_vulpes	!up gavinandresen	[16:04]
*	assbot gives voice to gavinandresen	[16:04]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that	[16:04]
Pierre_Rochard	off-blockchain transactions are taking off, then your argument will have won the day	[16:04]
asciilifeform	i can almost imagine some fellow advocating the urgency of bringing down megatonnes of gold from the asteroid belt, because failing this, a great many 'gold users' may take to using paper certificates 'as substitute'	[16:05]
lobbes	as others have stated; bitcoin is not meant for the 'masses'	[16:05]
ben_vulpes	lobbes: tell him who said it, he's ignoring me.	[16:05]
asciilifeform	i suspect that he is ignoring most or all of us.	[16:05]
ben_vulpes	!gettrust assbot gavinandresen	[16:05]
assbot	Trust relationship from user assbot to user gavinandresen: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. \| http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/gavinandresen \| http://w.b-a.link/user/gavinandresen	[16:05]
kakobrekla	and i wasnt even insulting.	[16:06]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: but my intuition tells me such substitution won’t happen at such a low fee	[16:06]
asciilifeform	i, for one, would simply like some non-weasel answers to a few basic questions.	[16:06]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: this is why you kept getting sucked into arguing with Robert Viragh over plainly stupid shit.	[16:06]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable)	[16:06]
davout	gavinandresen: "oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1)" <<< so with that, there's no network bottleneck anymore, at least no real incentive for miners to keep blocks small, right?	[16:07]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: i do believe i succeeded in ultimately pulling his wings off.	[16:07]
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ben_vulpes	!rate gavinandresen -5 broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.	[16:07]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/26d14cdaa2588fd5	[16:07]
ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.gavinandresen.-5:1b1cb1a93eadfd534bec6d5cdc3328d057c6baa2e6e97b7bfa34e5157384cc73	[16:07]
ben_vulpes		[16:07]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.	[16:07]
*	dooglus is now known as Guest6688	[16:07]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: ok, answers to your questions: I don’t know how many need to implode. And I don’t know what kind of brain damage.	[16:07]
ben_vulpes	!down gavinandresen	[16:07]
*	assbot removes voice from gavinandresen	[16:07]
kakobrekla	cmon he is still emitting	[16:08]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: srsly	[16:08]
kakobrekla	!up gavinandresen	[16:08]
*	assbot gives voice to gavinandresen	[16:08]
ben_vulpes	grarrghragr	[16:08]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu hasn't even opened up yet	[16:08]
gavinandresen	davout: Miners would only have the meta-incentive of “we can collectively maximize revenue if we make blocks THIS big”	[16:08]
ben_vulpes	let him up the spamgun	[16:08]
gavinandresen	davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen.	[16:08]
davout	gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol	[16:09]
gavinandresen	davout: ok, “patches welcome"	[16:09]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: it's just a basic blood pressure/cortisol reduction measure	[16:09]
davout	gavinandresen: “patches welcome" <<< i don't use your wallet tbh	[16:09]
gavinandresen	davout: great! your wallet can do whatever it likes with respect to fees.	[16:10]
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Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm	[16:11]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: so you admit that there is not, nor can there be, a non-fraudulent 'substitute' for bitcoin? that altchains, state-minted fiat, cowrie shells, are not in fact equivalent ?	[16:11]
Pierre_Rochard	increase it at the margin (say 20%) < increase the block size limit	[16:11]
BingoBoingo	;;bc,stats	[16:11]
gribble	Current Blocks: 339942 \| Current Difficulty: 4.397166205608958E10 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 340703 \| Next Difficulty In: 761 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 49 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: 42292830486.1 \| Estimated Percent Change: -3.81799	[16:11]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: huh? a sidechain to which you transfer BTC value would be a non-fraudulent substitite.	[16:12]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: it is fraudulent by virtue of not being the one and only genuine bitcoin. the schelling point.	[16:12]
asciilifeform	and by being crafted to give the opposite impression.	[16:12]
asciilifeform	(shit is not a fraudulent form of gold, but 'fool's gold' may be put to use as such)	[16:13]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: can you define “much too high limit” ?	[16:13]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: one where there is no competition among transactors to get into a block	[16:14]
undata	right, one would have to reach that state to know	[16:14]
asciilifeform	the whole concept of a 'sidechain' is an elaborate chumpatron.	[16:15]
Pierre_Rochard	that is, competition that would at least attempt to maximize transaction fee revenue	[16:15]
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gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: fee revenue measured in real prices, yes?	[16:15]
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gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: … because driving up real Bitcoin prices is why I think we should do everything possible to encourage widespread adoption	[16:16]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: that’s actually a very interesting question because we currently live in a world where miner liabilities are in fiat prices, but in the future that may not be the case.	[16:16]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: what even is a sidechain?	[16:16]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: another question: why precisely do you wish to rescue those who might be tempted to use 'substitutes' for bitcoin ?	[16:17]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN?	[16:17]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: right, that goes back to bitcoin’s adoption relative to other altcoins. when we see a divergence then we know there’s substitution going on	[16:17]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: understand that you are now speaking to a number of people who do not believe inclusiveness itself to be a virtue. a steak eaten by a hundred thousand flies is 'more inclusive' than same stake being eaten by a man.	[16:18]
asciilifeform	*steak	[16:18]
gavinandresen	Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob	[16:18]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: in your mind, it is a religion? as in, the gods whispered to you that you must bring as many unbelievers as possible into the fold ?	[16:19]
gavinandresen	asciilifeform: I’ll use tags next time	[16:19]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god	[16:19]
asciilifeform	We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers << what do you suppose the business model of 'aston martin' is ?	[16:19]
xanthyos	the bible warned us about you gavinandresen	[16:19]
Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%.	[16:20]
ben_vulpes	gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever.	[16:20]
gavinandresen	Ok, if y’all are interested in keeping Bitcoin an exclusive little club… then okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.	[16:20]
Pierre_Rochard	so it’s immaterial, yet that transaction fee revenue is super-important for the customers to know, long term this is a viable enterprise that can sustain itself	[16:20]
lobbes	all you have to do is look at bitcointalk.org to see that getting clueless people involved for the sake of 'because' just leads to more scamming, and more ignorance	[16:20]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: i find it odd that you are interested in inclusion on the user end (transactions) but not the node end	[16:21]
asciilifeform	gavinandresen: how are 20MB blocks a mechanism of 'inclusion' for folks who wish to continue running full nodes ?	[16:21]
asciilifeform	full nodes - as in, history-preserving.	[16:21]
asciilifeform	no 'pruning' bullshit.	[16:21]
danielpbarron	gavinandresen, what did satoshi write in the very first block??	[16:21]
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gavinandresen	I’ve gotta go. Pierre_Rochard, nice chatting with you.	[16:22]
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xanthyos	nice timing	[16:22]
xanthyos	faker	[16:22]
davout	lol	[16:22]
*	danielpbarron begins writing his indictment	[16:23]
mod6	bailiff, bring the witness back to the witness stand	[16:23]
davout	such convo, much mess, very lol	[16:23]
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Pierre_Rochard	gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. < this	[16:23]
Pierre_Rochard	Bitcoin is a ferrari being sold for $10. Increasing the price to $100 will not deter buyers	[16:24]
davout	poor log readers...	[16:24]
kakobrekla	the thing is he sees silly-con valley and think the ways of VS are go.	[16:24]
kakobrekla	VCs*	[16:24]
asciilifeform	hence ben_vulpes's astute observation, being that the spirit of mr. spam walked again from the grave	[16:24]
asciilifeform	it is as if all tentacles of the beast spoke with a single voice.	[16:25]
asciilifeform	not any kind of surprise, incidentally, to a student of history (all soviet bureaucrats likewise spoke in one voice.)	[16:25]
*	assbot removes voice from diametric	[16:25]
davout	"so far I’m not impressed with the quality of the conversation in #bitcoin-assets....."	[16:25]
kakobrekla	!up diametric still no luck ?	[16:25]
*	assbot gives voice to diametric	[16:26]
kakobrekla	well it was noisy.	[16:26]
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kakobrekla	not in the quality sense but quantity.	[16:27]
mod6	yah. srsly.	[16:27]
Pierre_Rochard	well if he disagrees on the premise that being fort knox is more important than being a rural walmart then there’s not much to discuss	[16:28]
asciilifeform	it still escapes me, what he was hoping to achieve by coming here.	[16:28]
mod6	davout asked him to come here so he could 'chat' with mp	[16:28]
asciilifeform	even though we did not get to see this, it is not difficult to imagine how the conversation may have went.	[16:30]
asciilifeform	folks who live by weaseling, smokescreen, evasion, tend to have just a few tricks up their sleeves.	[16:30]
asciilifeform	not necessarily on account of being stupid. a flunkie, lying from a position of desperation (our friend) - is overcome by anxiety, which inhibits creativity. on the other hand, an official liar, lying from a position of brute strength (e.g., keith alexander), is hobbled by complacency.	[16:32]
*	assbot removes voice from lobbes	[16:33]
diametric	kakobrekla: no luck, still saying it can't find my fingerprint.	[16:34]
kakobrekla	fucker.	[16:34]
asciilifeform	jurov: yes, while somehow (by divine intervention?) remaining 'bitcoin'	[16:34]
asciilifeform	'every man, woman, child' in america, africa, mars, alpha centauri - 'deserves' - a 'free' - mercedes, ph.d., three quintillion zimbabwe dollars...	[16:36]
asciilifeform	this gets old, it does.	[16:36]
davout	i would've loved seeing him actually elaborate on asciilifeform's questions	[16:39]
asciilifeform	and i'd love to fly on an f-35 with gigantic, fart-flaming pigs instead of engines.	[16:39]
Pierre_Rochard	not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity??	[16:39]
davout	shut up	[16:39]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[16:39]
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Pierre_Rochard	clearly there are much more important factors to adoption than the transaction fee	[16:40]
asciilifeform	Pierre_Rochard: because mr. obama has not handed each of them three quintillion bitcoins yet.	[16:40]
punkman	need more bitcoin bowl ads!	[16:40]
punkman	is very important	[16:41]
Pierre_Rochard	asciilifeform: why did he not announce that last night? why does he hate the middle class so?	[16:41]
davout	the idea that there exists somewhere a magical bitcoin alternative, suffering from none of its shortcomings, towards which everyone would flow is retarded	[16:41]
asciilifeform	davout: the idea that there is, was, or can be, an actual substitute (what is the substitute for electrical current ?) - ...	[16:41]
Pierre_Rochard	davout: I agree, the moat between bitcoin and the “substitutes” is _enormous_	[16:42]
asciilifeform	Pierre_Rochard: there are sound mathematical reasons to believe that there cannot be a stable substitute in any meaningful sense.	[16:42]
asciilifeform	Pierre_Rochard: see mircea_popescu's articles (ask him which, when he reappears) for elaboration.	[16:42]
Pierre_Rochard	asciilifeform: preaching to the choir, but a “substitute” in the economic term is the opposite of a “complement”, not something you necessarily consider on equal footing	[16:43]
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chetty	its ok, they can just pass a law to change the maths to what they like	[16:44]
asciilifeform	Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz.	[16:44]
asciilifeform	but if a skateboard with a missing wheel is a substitute for a 'boeing' - then, sure.	[16:44]
chetty	(all you have to do to make such a law work is send the gasenwagen for anybody that knows any maths)	[16:45]
asciilifeform	chetty: ''Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection: 'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is	[16:47]
asciilifeform	beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?' (1984)	[16:47]
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asciilifeform	or, alternatively, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778095 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778096	[16:48]
assbot	Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:10; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the story about gorby and andropov?	[16:48]
assbot	Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'	[16:48]
asciilifeform	the funny part is that the sc4mz0rz are stuck keeping two sets of books.	[16:48]
asciilifeform	and are perpetually tempted to skip the other, honest set, entirely	[16:49]
asciilifeform	when they do - curtain call.	[16:49]
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BingoBoingo	!up bitcoinmani	[16:56]
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BingoBoingo	!up STRML1	[16:56]
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BingoBoingo	!up gabriel_laddel	[16:56]
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asciilifeform	!up diametric	[16:56]
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diametric	yay	[16:58]
BingoBoingo	!up felipelalli	[16:59]
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BingoBoingo	!up teek	[17:01]
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asciilifeform	diametric: your key works now ?	[17:01]
diametric	yeah	[17:01]
asciilifeform	neat	[17:01]
diametric	for some real reason it wasn't importing it for the first time correctly, kakobrekla had to manually import it	[17:01]
diametric	now i'm good	[17:01]
diametric	real..i mean weird reason.	[17:02]
davout	diametric: this new assbot is a total scam	[17:02]
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BingoBoingo	!up napedia	[17:02]
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ben_vulpes	it's downright suspect that mircea_popescu goes to lunch and gavinandresen shows up	[17:04]
davout	ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that it took you so long to come to this conclusion	[17:04]
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ben_vulpes	fu davout	[17:04]
ben_vulpes	i'm submitting builds to apple	[17:04]
ben_vulpes	trying desperately to eke out food credits over here	[17:05]
ben_vulpes	i can't spot every scam	[17:05]
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BingoBoingo	!up STRML1_	[17:05]
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ben_vulpes	my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer"	[17:08]
ben_vulpes	xcode "code signing" is hilariously opaque	[17:08]
ben_vulpes	contains "fix issue" buttons	[17:08]
ben_vulpes	who wants to "fix issues" related to keys?	[17:08]
ben_vulpes	my keys "have issues"? get fucked!	[17:08]
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davout	ben_vulpes: my worst nightmares are those i'm forced to use xcode	[17:10]
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davout	*where	[17:10]
BingoBoingo	http://i.imgur.com/31X7V0J.jpg	[17:11]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1yI1TnB )	[17:11]
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kakobrekla	wtf is xcode even	[17:11]
ben_vulpes	kakobrekla: apples proprietary "integrated development environment" for "objective c"	[17:11]
kakobrekla	sounds great	[17:12]
thestringpuller	ben_vulpes: it's not just fo objective c	[17:12]
thestringpuller	you need xcode to run build essentials on make	[17:13]
thestringpuller	aka gcc and friends	[17:13]
thestringpuller	>:P	[17:13]
asciilifeform	gcc << nope	[17:13]
asciilifeform	they ditched gcc.	[17:13]
davout	kakobrekla: the IDE where folders don't actually create folders on disk	[17:13]
davout	thestringpuller: s/gcc/llvm/	[17:14]
davout	it's a fucking symlink	[17:14]
thestringpuller	davout: i see	[17:14]
thestringpuller	gcc --version	[17:14]
thestringpuller	Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.2.1	[17:14]
thestringpuller	Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.56) (based on LLVM 3.5svn)	[17:14]
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thestringpuller	Target: x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0	[17:14]
thestringpuller	Thread model: posix	[17:14]
davout	"you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd"	[17:14]
kakobrekla	lol!	[17:15]
davout	"you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable"	[17:15]
thestringpuller	personal experience davout ?	[17:15]
davout	thestringpuller: yeah. needless to say the experience was short.	[17:16]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: "would you like a mac or win machine?" "You mean which two bowls of shit would I like to eat?"	[17:17]
thestringpuller	which of the two*	[17:17]
ben_vulpes	davout: oh yeah don't use the layout engine	[17:18]
kakobrekla	you guys dont survive without apple turds?	[17:19]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: i think ben_vulpes writes softs for apple's stuff commercially ?	[17:19]
kakobrekla	well hence the question	[17:19]
kakobrekla	if he doesnt survive otherwise	[17:19]
thestringpuller	davout: at what point does this ruby thing start to grow on me?	[17:19]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: others write the softs	[17:20]
ben_vulpes	i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs	[17:20]
davout	thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-)	[17:20]
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ben_vulpes	my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer" << asciilifeform	[17:20]
davout	thestringpuller: what are you using it for?	[17:20]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: aha.	[17:20]
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davout	thestringpuller: ruby can be extremly confusing, especially if you use some weird proprietary dsl someone forces on you	[17:21]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night.	[17:21]
*	kakobrekla has leds, can just leave em running.	[17:21]
davout	!up STRML	[17:22]
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STRML	davout: Thanks	[17:22]
davout	yw	[17:22]
thestringpuller	davout: i'm using it for web apps at work. not really a web stack developer, but it's not as bad as php but still doesn't taste good.	[17:22]
STRML	I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs	[17:22]
STRML	all the confusion and unfamiliarity of a new programming language without any of the benefits	[17:22]
thestringpuller	it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess?	[17:23]
davout	STRML: yeah, dsl's can be a massive pain	[17:23]
STRML	I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way	[17:23]
davout	thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment	[17:23]
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ben_vulpes	it's just java	[17:23]
STRML	python is nice to debug... java too	[17:23]
ben_vulpes	for people with silly hair	[17:23]
davout	ben_vulpes: how do you know?	[17:24]
STRML	even JS isn't so bad to debug. better than php	[17:24]
davout	STRML: dsl's get much much easier when you're proficient with the language	[17:24]
davout	thestringpuller: what framework are you using?	[17:24]
ben_vulpes	davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community")	[17:24]
BingoBoingo	STRML: https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks	[17:24]
assbot	freenode: frequently-asked questions ... ( http://bit.ly/1EsxzgY )	[17:25]
davout	ben_vulpes: i meant "how do you know about my haricut?"	[17:25]
davout	MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS	[17:25]
ben_vulpes	lol well rubby haircuts are normally done by the hair wearer	[17:25]
ben_vulpes	"why are your bangs off center"	[17:25]
thestringpuller	davout: sinatra wasn't bad. now I'm learning rails.	[17:25]
davout	ben_vulpes: kek	[17:26]
davout	thestringpuller: i like sinatra, it's real simple, and there's very little magic	[17:26]
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davout	i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm	[17:26]
STRML	BingoBoingo: Thanks	[17:26]
davout	thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine	[17:27]
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BingoBoingo	For people catching up on mircea_popescu gavin drama http://trilema.com/2013/and-gavin-moves-on-to-the-dark-side-the-bitcoin-project-is-officially-hijacked/	[17:31]
assbot	And Gavin moves on to the dark side. The Bitcoin project is officially hijacked pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI2YM2 )	[17:31]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43315 @ 0.00049152 = 21.2902 BTC [+] {2}	[17:44]
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BingoBoingo	nubbins`: Nice video	[17:48]
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nubbins`	ty	[17:49]
nubbins`	not every shill gets a shirt	[17:49]
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BingoBoingo	lol	[17:54]
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BingoBoingo	!up grave	[18:04]
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thestringpuller	davout: do you like the french electronic music scene?	[18:09]
thestringpuller	aka justice, daft punk, et. al?	[18:09]
davout	justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining	[18:09]
davout	also you can't really have the market price according to supply and demand when the supply's pretty much infinite for all practical purposes	[18:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81000 @ 0.00050193 = 40.6563 BTC [+]	[18:10]
davout	thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy	[18:10]
davout	i liked daft punk's first albums tho	[18:10]
davout	i'm more of classical music and jazz guy	[18:11]
thestringpuller	jazz you say? :D	[18:11]
thestringpuller	I fucking love Jazz.	[18:11]
davout	last 'electronic' music i got into was birdy nam nam	[18:11]
davout	what kind of jazz?	[18:11]
thestringpuller	All kinds everything from Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Coltrane.	[18:12]
thestringpuller	I love Lee Morgan, such an epic history to him.	[18:12]
thestringpuller	Mingus is cool as fuck too.	[18:12]
thestringpuller	how bout you?	[18:13]
davout	thestringpuller: i'm grabbing you something	[18:14]
thestringpuller	:D	[18:14]
mircea_popescu	!up bitcoinmani	[18:14]
-assbot-	You voiced bitcoinmani for 30 minutes.	[18:14]
*	assbot gives voice to bitcoinmani	[18:14]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu!	[18:15]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: you missed all the fun	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	yes ?	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	what fun is that ?	[18:15]
davout	mircea_popescu: lol yes	[18:15]
ben_vulpes	roasting gavinandresen	[18:15]
mircea_popescu	haha wait, soi he had a lunch meeting except once i also had one his was cancelled ?	[18:16]
ben_vulpes	p much	[18:16]
mircea_popescu	a well. i guess bravery is not a silicon valley virtue.	[18:16]
asciilifeform	shillicon valley	[18:16]
*	mircea_popescu goes to check teh logs.	[18:17]
davout	thestringpuller: https://db.tt/iUB6Zn5E	[18:17]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/15betPS )	[18:17]
davout	thestringpuller: sinatra cover by biréli lagrène	[18:17]
mircea_popescu	mats: dos via cert chain replacement << this http-SECURE thing is getting lulzier and lulzier	[18:18]
davout	justusranvier: especially considering that block propagation is soon to be O(1)	[18:20]
thestringpuller	davout: luck be a lady tonight. hehe.	[18:20]
thestringpuller	!s from:gavinandresen	[18:20]
assbot	59 results for 'from:gavinandresen' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Agavinandresen	[18:20]
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BingoBoingo	!s turd*	[18:21]
assbot	794 results for 'turd*' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=turd%2A	[18:22]
mircea_popescu	punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis << yup that's a recurring topic here.	[18:22]
thestringpuller	i figured it out! gavinandresen and mircea_popescu are the same person!	[18:22]
thestringpuller	cause they are never in same room at same time	[18:22]
thestringpuller	conspiracy solved	[18:22]
davout	genius	[18:22]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#985246 < fopr instance.	[18:22]
assbot	Logged on 21-01-2015 01:56:34; mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands	[18:22]
thestringpuller	open and shut case johnson, sprinkle some crack on him and lets get out of here	[18:22]
jurov	they happen to be in two rooms at the same time	[18:22]
jurov	or mircea is capable of bilocation?	[18:22]
asciilifeform	he fork()s	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	slandeur	[18:23]
jurov	hope he reaps his zombies	[18:23]
davout	jurov: he keeps bragging about bicopulation	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	davout bicopulation is what that deer in the middle's doin'. ain't me!	[18:24]
jurov	;;ud bicopulation	[18:25]
gribble	Google found nothing.	[18:25]
jurov	sorry mircea, davout coined it first	[18:25]
BingoBoingo	!up devthedev	[18:26]
*	assbot gives voice to devthedev	[18:26]
mircea_popescu	so i coin it biggest!	[18:26]
BingoBoingo	devthedev: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer?	[18:26]
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mircea_popescu	punkman: their demos are stupid though << yeah they had no idea how to sell that thing.	[18:28]
mircea_popescu	nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock << are the da starving artists going to get a cut of the 14k ?	[18:29]
mircea_popescu	i see Blazedout419 ain't answering my q from yest ;/	[18:29]
mircea_popescu	!up Blazedout419	[18:29]
-assbot-	You voiced Blazedout419 for 30 minutes.	[18:29]
*	assbot gives voice to Blazedout419	[18:29]
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mircea_popescu	assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin << that post has a core of point in it. if it weren't wrapped in redditard retardation / karpeles bs, it'd almost be worth making.	[18:31]
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kakobrekla	myea bitpay would do better if they just deleted their wallet	[18:32]
asciilifeform	one of the alchemical powers of idiots is the ability to transform theoretically good points into, well, this	[18:32]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[18:33]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2PQ3NZY.txt )	[18:33]
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mircea_popescu	nevertheless, VCs have been doing appalingly poorly in bitcoin.	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	mostly because bitcoin does not reward their "get big fast" pump and dump scam.	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	maybe it's time they fold and just take their subervient place in the ecosystem ?	[18:34]
BingoBoingo	Well generally they tend to raise dollars and burn them. Or in BitPay's case start with Bitcoins and then burn those.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	there's nothing wrong with humility if pride just means you lose money.	[18:34]
asciilifeform	VCs have been doing appalingly poorly << this assumes that their objective was to do well in the usual, commercial sense	[18:34]
thestringpuller	BingoBoingo: well they don't burn btc really...	[18:34]
thestringpuller	i don't think they are allowed to hold btc as assets, i dunno.	[18:35]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this assumes they are what they claim to be.	[18:35]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: something that takes an ever rarer class of chump to believe.	[18:35]
BingoBoingo	thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC	[18:35]
mircea_popescu	not a matter of chumpness tho. suppose dude rings your doorbell dressed as a car mechanic. "yes ?" "hello i'm the pizza delivery". "you don't seem to have any pizza ?" "ha-ha! fooled you! i'm only SAYING im pizza delivery"	[18:36]
mircea_popescu	"well fuck you then ? not like i care eiter way ?"	[18:37]
davout	thestringpuller: why wouldn't they be?	[18:37]
thestringpuller	BingoBoingo: yea but from what I can gather (i am no expert), would be written as an expense	[18:37]
thestringpuller	as all their liabilities are covered as fiat, so I assume assets are handled sameway	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	davout because idiotic accountantlogic.	[18:38]
thestringpuller	^- CFO's fault	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	right.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX << lmao this shit better be parodic.	[18:39]
thestringpuller	there's a lot wrong there, but my theory is VC's won't let them hold btc like other btc companies	[18:39]
davout	mircea_popescu thestringpuller the accountant can account for the value paymium's coin in whatever fiat he fancies, he can go fuck himself before we sell it	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	davout have you spent any time in teh us corporate environment ?	[18:39]
thestringpuller	lol	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	because it is a sort of insanity that can not readily be grasped from outside.	[18:40]
davout	mircea_popescu: ic	[18:40]
thestringpuller	davout: yea. p. much. Then VC comes in and says, "You may have this much btc on book at anytime" or I guess CFO or whatever. I dunno, I'm not an accountant.	[18:41]
thestringpuller	smickles where r u	[18:41]
davout	thestringpuller: i have already heard that from potential investors, these were shown the door	[18:42]
thestringpuller	ah so theory holds some water.	[18:42]
davout	WAI U NO WANT BTC IF U WANT INVEST IN BTC CORP	[18:42]
thestringpuller	i knew I wasn't cray cray	[18:42]
devthedev	BingoBoingo: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? << It makes my stomach turn	[18:43]
davout	thestringpuller: yes it does, i have heard that kind of bullshit first hand	[18:43]
BingoBoingo	devthedev: Well you spotted it, you can tell the story...	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	davout there's a large chunk of facetious asshats who hate bitcoin just as much as the next guy whose unearned position it threatens. but they figure they get further with a spoonfull of honey than a barrel of vinegar, and so will make this sort of claim.	[18:43]
BingoBoingo	What did the leader of America's other Socialist party do?	[18:43]
*	Adlai had a big tussle with a business associate about his (the other guy's) emphasis on "pitching bitcoin" to investors	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	that they're "investing", that they wiosh to "drive adoption", that generally they're only trying to help.	[18:44]
Adlai	whereas my stance was that not pitching bitcoin filters out the people to whom bitcoin needs to be pitched	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	they're trivially identified in the field by the shockingly unhelpful nature of their helpings,	[18:44]
asciilifeform	'investing' << 'embrace, extend, extinguish'	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	and by the incredible tenacity they put into keeping it that way'	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	so it's not really a very functional strategy.	[18:44]
devthedev	John Boehner opened a house session with a prayer to Allah.	[18:44]
*	assbot removes voice from bitcoinmani	[18:45]
mircea_popescu	point in case of this matter, once gavin is questioned as to why exactly he wants to do x, and he immediately and seamlessly moves into "oh, so what's the right value, so you want to do X' ??" it is clear that he is not in fact interested in what he claims to discuss	[18:45]
*	felipelalli (~Thunderbi@179.159.43.37) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:45]
thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: this gives me the impression that...maybe this is bitpay's handlers driving this nonsense	[18:46]
thestringpuller	as you've said before	[18:46]
thestringpuller	opaque agenda is opaque	[18:46]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i for one did not expect this to be so brazenly demonstrated, so quickly, as it was.	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform subtlety is expensive. political competence especially so.	[18:47]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: notice how similar his flavour of muppetronics is to that of mr. spam	[18:47]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: i was telling a friend the other night that the CIA/FBI acts as the USG mafia, but won't admit to being the mafia. Whereas KGB/Soviets said, "Yea we're the mob, watcha gonna do about it?"	[18:47]
mircea_popescu	the theoretical theory was that "Bitcoin is all nerds anyway" and so any old junk should stick.,	[18:47]
thestringpuller	At least the russians were willing to be SOMEWHAT honest.	[18:47]
*	jordandotdev (uid7502@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-osrpufpcwnkjgfsj) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:48]
mircea_popescu	chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" <<< "everyone wants to be a developer" happened. and "everyone should get what they want" also happened.	[18:49]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: in the mid-20th-c., world split into 'prison' and 'psych ward' camps. 'hard' and 'soft'-power, respectively.	[18:50]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: these being the two basic schools of thought on how to run a 20th c. state.	[18:50]
Adlai	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw << bitcoin theme song	[18:51]
assbot	The Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get What You Want [Official] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI8fDp )	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin? << you will benefit from reading the logs, also googling "site:trilema.com gavin" might help.	[18:51]
BingoBoingo	!up felipelalli	[18:51]
*	assbot gives voice to felipelalli	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform where by 20th c state we mean, one of those insane constructions where everyone is equal.	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	ie, how to run a socialist state.	[18:51]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: them.	[18:51]
*	weex_ (~weex@99-6-135-18.lightspeed.snmtca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:52]
davout	asciilifeform: pardon my ignorance, but who is mr spam?	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	and yes, a socialist state can only be run as a prison or as an insane asylum. because socialism is insanity.	[18:52]
Adlai	davout: ninjashogun	[18:52]
davout	!s ninjashogun	[18:52]
assbot	1761 results for 'ninjashogun' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ninjashogun	[18:52]
davout	wow	[18:52]
asciilifeform	davout: i call him 'mr. spam' because he changed alias with some regularity. and promised to return one day under a yet-new one.	[18:52]
Adlai	spam indeed	[18:52]
davout	that's a high amount of ninjashogun	[18:52]
davout	asciilifeform: ic, ty	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it << this is an universal experience.	[18:53]
asciilifeform	davout: he's become a kind of proverbial example here, of certain kinds of behaviour	[18:53]
BingoBoingo	http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/topics/security/cpujan2015-1972971.html	[18:53]
assbot	Oracle Critical Patch Update - January 2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI8rmj )	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	i have what the dorks refer to "Fat pipes" on a number of nodes and they still get saturated on occasion.	[18:53]
BingoBoingo	!up weex_	[18:53]
Adlai	my main problem with "mr spam" was the high stock he placed in ideas	[18:53]
*	assbot gives voice to weex_	[18:53]
Adlai	ideas are worthless, execution is what matters	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	Adlai some ideas are more worthless than others.	[18:54]
kakobrekla	shut up my idea does not require execution	[18:54]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: packet shaping is a glorious thing.	[18:54]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: one of the reasons i took the sweat to set up a civilized routing stack at home	[18:54]
Adlai	yes, but keeping an idea secret doesn't prevent somebody else from executing it better than you, while you sit around trying to get people to invest in something you haven't explained to them	[18:54]
BingoBoingo	alf handcarves exquisite reliefs as he shapes traffic	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it just has to do with, if a bunch of nodes wake up and find you...	[18:54]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: find you and what? they get to eat out of a fixed trough, no faster than they are fed.	[18:56]
*	assbot removes voice from devthedev	[18:56]
Adlai	mircea_popescu: eta on D.CTIP?	[18:56]
*	weex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)	[18:56]
Adlai	they require you to price withdrawals in dollars	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	which is d.ctip ?	[18:56]
Adlai	this is retardation to a new level	[18:56]
Adlai	changetip	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	...	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	how is that worth anything ?	[18:56]
Adlai	i have no clue	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	so then eta is clue / 0	[18:57]
Adlai	but when you withdraw bitcoin, on the bitcoin network, you have to specify the amount in dollars	[18:57]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Believe it or not it got a VC round, raised money	[18:57]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75500 @ 0.00050243 = 37.9335 BTC [+] {2}	[18:57]
thestringpuller	2 times	[18:57]
thestringpuller	lol	[18:57]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/12/changetip-raises-3-5-million-lead-by-pantera-capital/	[18:57]
assbot	ChangeTip Raises $3.5 Million Lead by Pantera Capital \| Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzQjXd )	[18:57]
thestringpuller	first round was 750k	[18:57]
asciilifeform	https://panteracapital.com/about	[18:58]
assbot	About \| Pantera Capital - Bitcoin Investment Firm ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzQsKp )	[18:58]
asciilifeform	^ sc4mz0r zoo	[18:58]
*	mircea_popescu shrugs.	[18:58]
kakobrekla	ah yes they plunked 10mio to buttstamp.	[18:59]
mircea_popescu	at this point listing them on mpex should yield what, 25% of equity. because it'd definitely increase their market value by that much.	[18:59]
Adlai	it's just baffling how people invest in this	[18:59]
asciilifeform	incidentally, there was a time when usg did the 'strategic vc' thing more or less above-board. see 'in-q-tel.'	[18:59]
asciilifeform	still a going concern, iirc	[18:59]
BingoBoingo	Wait, Buttstamp isn't even 3 full changetips?	[18:59]
*	assbot removes voice from Blazedout419	[19:00]
Adlai	a penny pushing social media spamhaus with no business plan is almost half an exchange?	[19:01]
asciilifeform	'changetip,' as i understand, answers two usg desires: 1) injection of tard armies into bitcoin, fodder for gavinization 2) the old, tired 'let's put some names/faces/palmprints/arsebook histories on as many btc addrs as we can'	[19:01]
mircea_popescu	Adlai the exchange has no margin in an indefensible market and makes no money.	[19:02]
diametric	nubbins`: so i'm being led to believe you can produce wood t-shirts for me now, hand carved no less.	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	so yes, 0 is ~= half a 0.	[19:02]
Adlai	lol	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	diametric witnessed.	[19:02]
asciilifeform	wooden t-shirts << ru slang, 'wooden mackintosh', coffin	[19:02]
*	Lolugal (5ccc7349@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.204.115.73) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:02]
diametric	ha really?	[19:02]
asciilifeform	aha.	[19:03]
BingoBoingo	!up Lolugal	[19:03]
*	assbot gives voice to Lolugal	[19:03]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam"	[19:03]
Lolugal	hello	[19:03]
*	devthedev has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[19:03]
mircea_popescu	pseudoarguments of the attorney ilk.	[19:03]
BingoBoingo	Hello Lolugal	[19:03]
*	assbot gives voice to Elio19	[19:03]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" << Reasons to never use a public Electrum server for people wondering about "Lite" wallets.	[19:04]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it goes very well with the usg approach to target selection. which is the 'texas sharpshooter' algorithm.	[19:04]
mircea_popescu	reason to not "drive adoption" to idiots / poor people / etc.	[19:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform myeah.	[19:04]
asciilifeform	!s cocaine toilet	[19:05]
assbot	5 results for 'cocaine toilet' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cocaine+toilet	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? << they did all sorts of things for "the community" to be able to use their own stuff, which the community isn't doing because... well i guess more because lazy and stupid, but hey.	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	1800 lines day's not even done ;/	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	guyse!	[19:07]
Adlai	you missed gavin!	[19:07]
*	Adlai did too	[19:07]
ben_vulpes	thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC << i thought it was a promise to pay in btc, the paper for which ESPN liquidated immediately	[19:07]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4260 @ 0.00080694 = 3.4376 BTC [+] {9}	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	yeah derp claimed he can't come because he's got a lunch engagement, then found out that so do i so he suddenly could.	[19:07]
*	Adlai is impressed that gavin showed up here, but also a little puzzled - did anybody think anybody else's opinion would change?	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	not a matter of opinions.	[19:07]
ben_vulpes	it's allll part of the act.	[19:07]
BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: Why do you have to highlight the shortcut that was almost certainly taken	[19:08]
ben_vulpes	he has to show. has to "try to talk sense into -assets"	[19:08]
Adlai	my new favorite word, after btcmiami, is "signaling"	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	guy saw an opportunity to check off thisparticular thing without actually doing it, and took it.	[19:08]
BingoBoingo	Adlai: What is "signaling"	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	it speaks volumes as to his own perceived value of his own "opinions" which he doesn;'t actually hold.	[19:08]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3590 @ 0.00082 = 2.9438 BTC [+]	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	however, it only speaks volumes to those capable to listen.	[19:08]
Adlai	BingoBoingo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory	[19:08]
assbot	Signalling theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9kuZ )	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	that was a fad 20 years ago too.	[19:09]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: see also 'stotting'	[19:09]
asciilifeform	(from your own article)	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	yeh	[19:09]
Adlai	btcmiami was all a huge signal: "look at us, we're so successful, we can sponsor all of this!"	[19:09]
Adlai	"come make us able to sponsor the next one too!("	[19:09]
asciilifeform	jumping up and down, to show that your legs work, is an example of what zoologists called 'honest signal'	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	Adlai so was that cyprus fiasco.	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	"we're so smart, we even got the dean of the cyprus uni to come!"	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	now that guy doesn't know how to erase his name from the mess.	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	exact same thing, in this exact same chan, three years ago. nefario was all "oh, we're so smart we got stallman to come"	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	dub actually was there iirc	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	pronking?	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	sporking?	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	dorking?	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	honking?	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	i can never remember this word.	[19:11]
mircea_popescu	ne1 else recall the glbse conference where nefario explained all about how he's immune to stuff two weeks before closing down ?	[19:11]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes stotting ?	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	sotting, yeah.	[19:11]
Naphex	ben_vulpes: heard you got ignored by gavin for distracting him ;)	[19:12]
asciilifeform	lol, what did stallman say ?	[19:12]
asciilifeform	(and was it signed ?)	[19:12]
ben_vulpes	Naphex: distracting << lol. not pandering, do you mean?	[19:12]
ben_vulpes	asking questions faster than his tiny brain and crippled fingers can keep up?	[19:12]
BingoBoingo	The video and Nefario rambling is somewhere	[19:12]
Naphex	hehe	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform he was physically there.	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	lemme find the thing brb	[19:13]
*	Kushed has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[19:13]
ben_vulpes	http://object-files.shithouse.tv/	[19:14]
assbot	object-files ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9zGv )	[19:14]
BingoBoingo	Trilema movie night http://trilema.com/2012/fear-and-loathing-in-your-mother/	[19:15]
assbot	Fear and Loathing in Your Mother pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9GBZ )	[19:15]
Adlai	more like "must read"	[19:16]
Adlai	although i guess that's another one of the lost arts	[19:16]
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*	Adlai (~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00050299 = 19.7675 BTC [+] {2}	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	;;seen nefario	[19:18]
gribble	nefario was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 years, 17 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: Those assets are not listed or traded anymore	[19:18]
*	napedia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[19:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6489 @ 0.00050313 = 3.2648 BTC [+]	[19:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://pastebin.com/aLENimd7 << there you go, pretty much complete guy's last week.	[19:20]
assbot	Sep 15 02:16:04 oh man Sep 15 02:16:06 so tired Sep 15 02: - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzW5rR )	[19:20]
BingoBoingo	Ah looking for that video link I ran into this classic on the only Bitcoin adoption that matters http://trilema.com/2012/bribes-in-bitcoins/	[19:21]
assbot	Bribes in Bitcoins pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzWiLC )	[19:21]
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*	assbot removes voice from felipelalli	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". << quite a weak point.	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	mpex is not regulated by the nyse, or in general by the us. expectations to the contrary will result in bruised expectators.	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	that'd be yet another difference between me and (bpay / coinbase / derp.* etc) : not only i make money and they make burn rate, but when i speak i speak from atop a position of significant power. they speak out of their ass, pretty much,not having an iota of actual influence either way.	[19:24]
mircea_popescu	which is fundamentally why they gotta keep quiet, for that matter.	[19:24]
*	STRML (~STRML@162.243.255.105) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:25]
*	STRML has quit (Changing host)	[19:25]
*	STRML (~STRML@unaffiliated/strml) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:25]
BingoBoingo	!up STRML	[19:25]
*	assbot gives voice to STRML	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	STRML you're not using your cloak correctly youknow. we can see your ip.	[19:25]
ben_vulpes	gasp	[19:26]
ben_vulpes	your IP is showing!	[19:26]
ben_vulpes	SHAME	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	lol	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	nipples!	[19:26]
ben_vulpes	nudity!	[19:26]
mod6	zip	[19:26]
ben_vulpes	feel bad about your toolchain	[19:26]
ben_vulpes	and body, while you're at it	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i figure if someone goes to the trouble of getting a cloak they prolly care about it.	[19:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80314 @ 0.00050319 = 40.4132 BTC [+] {2}	[19:26]
BingoBoingo	http://trilema.com/2012/bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets/	[19:27]
assbot	#bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIaeHS )	[19:27]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Earlier he said his bouncer was getting DoS...	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo re that post, lemme tell you how flattened i was by davout using "posteriority" :D	[19:27]
BingoBoingo	And yet Davout survives	[19:28]
davout	what	[19:28]
*	bitcoinmani has quit ()	[19:28]
mircea_popescu	davout apparently i misread ?	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	le suck.	[19:29]
davout	posteriority, assness	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	you know, posterity ?	[19:30]
davout	yes	[19:31]
davout	postérieur in french also means butt	[19:31]
mircea_popescu	yup	[19:31]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot << this is true, and has been for a while. pgp keyservers like the weakest link in the assets system currently.	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	incredible what ends up imported into our house ;/	[19:33]
*	assbot removes voice from Lolugal	[19:33]
mats	guess we'll have to run a keyserver now.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	eventually yeah	[19:34]
mats	themes of #b-a: rebuild EVERYTHING	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	kinda hoping that the by-default gossipd keystore system may be enough	[19:34]
*	Kushedout is now known as Kushed	[19:34]
BingoBoingo	Oh a qntra submission to /. got accepted, but in linksnipped form, Instead of the qntra story they link spamm-mysanantonio.com which isn't even remotely local to the fucking arrest!	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	for shame.	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	point it out in comemnts.	[19:35]
kakobrekla	mats pretty much, and given the number of able people here, it will never get done	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	a) It's not nice to snip the source link - if you thought the guy;s work is good enough to use, think the guy is good enough to credit ;	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	b) the spammy link you replaced it with isn't even local. or useful.	[19:36]
mircea_popescu	statist pesimist!!	[19:36]
kakobrekla	me? im a realist, thats why im pessimistic.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	kinda funny how "statist " is slowly becoming a cry de guerre.	[19:38]
mircea_popescu	anyway, ftr, there's nothing at all in this gavin thing. so he came in, derped about nothing in particular, found his way out. at least a dozen random noobs/spammers performed just as well.	[19:39]
BingoBoingo	http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=6783079&cid=48870089	[19:39]
assbot	Silk Road 2.0 Deputy Arrested - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIaQNK )	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	!rate felipelalli -1 has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.	[19:39]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6fdd3a9db37207a4	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.felipelalli.-1:ce71215acbced2ee28e23af75dd7b767e6314f260038f4c916a1aa81cb263c6e	[19:39]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.	[19:39]
BingoBoingo	!v assbot:BingoBoingo.unrate.felipelalli:a27e904686bb93b6243af0b032d1e4e7c383eb1d052a8ad3e800080a8a0085c2	[19:40]
assbot	Successfully unrated felipelalli	[19:40]
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mircea_popescu	uh this log. so yesterday^H^H^H^ earlier today ben_vulpes is all like "god i love you guys". then i get all "wtf is this derp thinking, giving usgavin room to pretend for ?" and next line in log, sure enough...	[19:42]
mats	brutal	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	clearly idiots seldom differ.	[19:42]
*	mircea_popescu waves at Pierre_Rochard	[19:44]
*	Pierre_Rochard waves back	[19:44]
BingoBoingo	Oh, and CoinDesk finally got to a story on the arrest, but they instead cover the FBI Press Release.	[19:45]
mircea_popescu	I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) << this is particularly fucking stupid	[19:45]
BingoBoingo	"The arrest of Mr. Farrell is proof that federal law enforcement continues its efforts to root out those who subvert the Internet to set up black markets for illegal goods." << STFU	[19:45]
mircea_popescu	it was discussed earlier with jurov, but of course noobs don't read logs.	[19:45]
*	FabianB_ (~fabian@unaffiliated/fabianb) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:46]
Pierre_Rochard	mircea_popescu: I was interested in hearing gavin defend tx fee elasticity, not much else	[19:47]
Pierre_Rochard	mircea_popescu: because I think the tx fee is inelastic to the point that it’s doubtful the limit will ever be raised	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	this is in fact a very complex issue.	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it	[19:48]
*	FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	(discounting, of course, frustrated nobodies a la adam back, who are so cocksure they imagine they invented clorophorm)	[19:49]
asciilifeform	i, for one, would rather like to see the machine-gun taken away from the baby, and only then contemplate military strategy	[19:49]
Pierre_Rochard	mircea_popescu: I agree, the only model is what actually ends up happening. I think the miners will get a taste for that inelasticity and jealously defend it. I think Gavin & co fear that more than anything else	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	to some degree the demand for gold was elastic, and this is trivially proven by the fact that while industrial revolution europe used gold, china opf the time used silver.	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	so there DOES exist some elasticity in the monetary good.	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	now, how exactly it works... fouquet knows.	[19:50]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Well, maybe he accidentally invented it cleaning. I mean bleach disinfects and ETOH disinfects. Maybe he really wanted to get his piss dribblings off of the bathroom tile?	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	surely.	[19:50]
Pierre_Rochard	gold and silver are much, much closer substitutes than bitcoin and, say, litecoin or coinbase.	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	Pierre_Rochard you know, the "say the word, nodes ready, miners ready within a recompile" messages i got so far and that keep piling in...	[19:51]
mircea_popescu	it's not a matter of some distant future.	[19:51]
mircea_popescu	Pierre_Rochard for each other you mean ?	[19:51]
mircea_popescu	surely. and for that matter piss-poor models for bitcoin. that example is easily more misleading than useful.	[19:51]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this re: the merge-mining thing ?	[19:52]
mircea_popescu	but in point of fact the "monetary pholgiston" so to call the idealised thing is very poorly understood.	[19:52]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes.	[19:52]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1382 @ 0.00084935 = 1.1738 BTC [+] {5}	[19:52]
danielpbarron	!rate gavinandresen -5 okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.	[19:52]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/b12856e52ed5e601	[19:52]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00085 = 2.125 BTC [+]	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	lol. "k guise, i guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion about this here wide screen tv i stole from your place"	[19:53]
STRML	thanks. never had a need for a cloak before but since somebody here ddos'd my bouncer I figure it's a good idea	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	i think gavin will make a fortune in gangsta rap	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	STRML it is, but you gotta apply it first.	[19:53]
STRML	Yeah. Will have to configure on the bouncer. Thanks for the headsup	[19:54]
danielpbarron	!v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.gavinandresen.-5:88e38a0d3bacd012bbf85a347fd6114b79fbbf53301867d2bb5ecfc3aea36d67	[19:55]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.	[19:55]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: this gets old, it does. << quite old.	[19:56]
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*	assbot removes voice from STRML	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? << because, the argument goes, they're so farsighted into the future, this children of the paycheck loan, these african seasonal hunters, that the POTENTIAL of it costing maybe more tomorrow perhaps is inhibiting them.	[19:57]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	like you know, if bread in your african village is 5 dollars a loaf, and there's cake at 2 cents, you won't buy any cake.	[19:57]
*	kermit (unknown@c-75-72-166-126.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	becase IT IS POSSIBLE that in YEARS!!!! it may go as high as i dunno, 5cents ? a whole quarter ?	[19:57]
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mircea_popescu	so you're spending 100 cakes per loaf of bread instead. because this is "economics" as understood by "expert economists" : oleg andreev, gavin assassinsen, that nytimes thoctchke what's his name	[19:58]
mircea_popescu	paul kruger	[19:58]
mircea_popescu	and so on.	[19:58]
asciilifeform	!rate gavinandresen -1 with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'	[20:00]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e4aaf8d13f6ba47e	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. << in economics, substitute is a functional substitute not a logical substitute. in this sense, your feet are a substitute for a train.	[20:00]
asciilifeform	!v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.gavinandresen.-1:4b3f2513a1f08c4238511a84a1561981b97b4070e6ed35638c5ac133dbfeff10	[20:01]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of -1 for gavinandresen with note: with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	an usg education is an economic substitute of an actual education, and margerine is an economic substitute for butter.	[20:01]
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xanthyos	is the price of bitcoin moving up today a response to gavin being dissed in assets?	[20:02]
asciilifeform	and, i suppose, vacuum is a substitute for air. for a spell, anyway.	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	price answers no one.	[20:03]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you got it.	[20:03]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 227.97, vol: 21464.50503247 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 224.003, vol: 16571.37793 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 228.92, vol: 52253.10725355 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 229.5, vol: 17.07242792 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 226.822356, vol: 158884.46680000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 224.485, vol: 47.35145823 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 220.704000383, vol: 131.15571843 \| Volume-weighted last (1 more message)	[20:03]
*	assbot gives voice to Adlai	[20:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you know that scammer creativity analysis actually sounds very like soviet police doctrine, on meditation. didja get it out of some book ?	[20:04]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it's straight out of my arse.	[20:04]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: spur of the moment.	[20:05]
Adlai	is the asswot online yet? as in, visible from the www?	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	i guess we can say you're a russian thinker.	[20:05]
*	asciilifeform guilty as charged	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	Adlai there are jsons. i am thinking about putting a job up for site-ification of those outputs.	[20:05]
*	sinetek (~quassel@modemcable062.8-130-66.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:05]
kakobrekla	not only jsons	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	oh ?	[20:05]
kakobrekla	!gettrust assbot	[20:05]
assbot	Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user assbot: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 11 via 6 connections. \| http://w.b-a.link/trust/kakobrekla/assbot \| http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot	[20:05]
kakobrekla	is this not a web page online: http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot	[20:06]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1yIdxik )	[20:06]
davout	kakobrekla: scam	[20:06]
kakobrekla	(and its not json, json is with /json/)	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	but...trhey are jsons ?	[20:06]
Adlai	kakobrekla: had you waited a moment, you could've earned a pretty penny!	[20:06]
Adlai	oh but yes this is jsons	[20:06]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: perfectly fine www page.	[20:06]
kakobrekla	ok	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	i am not disputing it is a webpage!	[20:06]
davout	kakobrekla: this looks like a dump of a php array, sort if dictionary, or maybe an array, depending on the amounts of "="	[20:07]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: looks great straight from 'curl'.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	that it does.	[20:07]
asciilifeform	as www pages ought to.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	curl, however, does not count as "web"	[20:07]
asciilifeform	ditto in 'emacs'.	[20:07]
*	Adlai isn't sure what to make of this, but it's good enough for him	[20:07]
asciilifeform	sureitdoes.	[20:07]
davout	it can't be a web page, it has no google analytics	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	hory shit it's going to be th ecase nobody actually wants a PROPER web page ?!	[20:07]
kakobrekla	anyway, if you want a neater interface, add /json/ on end of url , decode and voila	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	where are the retarded bois going to mix cvasi azure with moss green and gold!	[20:08]
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davout	!up STRML	[20:08]
*	assbot gives voice to STRML	[20:08]
BingoBoingo	davout: Qntra doesn't have google anal-y-tics either	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	STRML now it worked right	[20:08]
STRML	Great	[20:08]
STRML	SASL is the key there	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	one of yes	[20:09]
*	felipelalli has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[20:09]
mats	anyone have an idea wut filesystem i should use with a SSD?	[20:09]
davout	BingoBoingo: i am disappoint	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	mats whatever your os likes ?	[20:10]
asciilifeform	mats: depends, do you intend to write to it ?	[20:10]
mats	i have read that many filesystems have behavior that is unkind to to writes	[20:11]
mats	yes	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes: i can't spot every scam << o wow, do we get the sad, blood splattered, tear imbibed story of it ?	[20:11]
asciilifeform	mats: often ?	[20:11]
BingoBoingo	davout: We do quantcast instead so everyone can see our anals https://www.quantcast.com/qntra.net	[20:11]
assbot	Qntra.net Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast	[20:11]
mats	nah, just a dev machine	[20:11]
BingoBoingo	mats: Anything wrong with UFS?	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	it's not likely to make a difference mats. hdds are hceap enough.	[20:12]
asciilifeform	mats: each block (extant eeproms often have block sizes of 4k) can be erased/written 10-100,000 times.	[20:12]
asciilifeform	mats: the newer/denser the eeprom, the fewer.	[20:12]
mats	mmkay. idk anything about filesystems besides what i read in "Practical Filesystem Design"	[20:12]
BingoBoingo	lulz https://twitter.com/ErrataRob/status/558037792568410112	[20:13]
assbot	Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer.	[20:13]
davout	BingoBoingo: is that a different flavour of the same thing or is that fundamentally different?	[20:13]
asciilifeform	mats: there is generally a 'write-levelling' microcontroller in there, that tries to 'spread the pain'	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo that's pretty decent proof.	[20:13]
asciilifeform	mats: it generally is not aware of filesystem, but only of zero/nonzero blocks.	[20:13]
BingoBoingo	davout: This one differs in quantcast showing EVERYONE the visitors who happen to load quantcast junk while visiting your page	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	ahahaha wait, wait. so gavin actually sprouted the ninjashogun line re b-a "conversation quality" ?!	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	gawds have mercy.	[20:14]
mircea_popescu	why must everything be so funny ?	[20:14]
asciilifeform	mats: the only reliable heuristic i know of is that a large proportion of null blocks will prolong, somewhat, the life of the device	[20:14]
STRML	generally you don't have to worry about running out of writes on most modern SSDs	[20:14]
asciilifeform	STRML: horseshit	[20:14]
STRML	so long are you're not running TLC NAND you're fine for a good long time, and even if you are, a pretty reasonable amount of time under most loads	[20:15]
STRML	not horseshit, for typical consumer use it's fine. For long-term data storage or server use, it's not	[20:15]
STRML	which is why they sell server SSDs for a higher price.	[20:15]
mats	asciilifeform: right. people more technically proficient than i have suggested 'btrfs' instead of ext4, but i suppose SSDs will drop in price quickly enough for me to not care	[20:15]
undata	"This drive rated to over 10000 Facebook page loads!"	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xez2n371MTo	[20:16]
assbot	The Bottle Deposit - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIeSWp )	[20:16]
kakobrekla	cosumer grade ssd. .. the controller will die first.	[20:16]
*	Adlai has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[20:16]
STRML	Best way to prolong SSD life is to keep a decent amount of free space on it so TRIM can work its magic	[20:17]
STRML	also helps if can afford to turn off swap, and turn off hibernate.	[20:17]
BingoBoingo	mats: From what I've read on btrfs it seems to be mostly a multi drive arrangement beast that apes at being ZFS while failing on more edge cases	[20:18]
*	Adlai (~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	no, srsly, kakobrekla has it. i've seen more controller failures than anything. actually out of cycles deaths are so rare i don't recall one.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	shitty turdware in the chip more likely to be the culprit in any case.	[20:18]
mats	ic	[20:19]
*	mats dials up swap to 8gb	[20:20]
mircea_popescu	and by the time it's out of cycles, that drive has seen petabytes worth of traffic. the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over	[20:20]
*	DreadKnight (~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:21]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons << lol this sounds like early chinese factory automation	[20:24]
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mircea_popescu	davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS << honestly i had no idea it's a haircut. i had imagined it's simply whatever's left once the neighbours are done cutting their hedges.	[20:30]
davout	har	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	:p	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining << quite	[20:33]
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mircea_popescu	and that doesn't actually even begin to address the (unrelated) problem with "infinite blocks", which is market destruction out and out.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	somehow the idea that you can get "just as good food and service" no matter how cheap a restaurant meal gets, like say a cent, or 1/1000th of a cent, is directly stupid to people.	[20:34]
*	WolfGoethe (~textual@pool-108-41-8-151.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	but the notion that mining will still work no matter how badly the incentive structure gets ruined, because somehow mining is a god given gift / universal service obligation of nature to man doesn't.	[20:35]
davout	yes	[20:35]
*	benjamindees (~user@72.192.71.20) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:35]
asciilifeform	the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over << lol, wai, wat ???	[20:36]
asciilifeform	if it all comes from the net - sure	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	guess what : mining is a marginal business as it is, and exactly the problems that ruined the western textile industry in your parent's lifetime can and will, if given a chance, ruin bitconi.,	[20:36]
davout	i think the idea of a one time bump of the block-size limit is actually much less braindamaged than the perpetual increase approach or infinite size that are pure folly	[20:36]
asciilifeform	if you're folding proteins - not so much	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	in point of fact, the industrial revolution was started by, and driven by, the textile industry.	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	anyone that's not read buffett's post mortem on that venture, once "block size was removed", really has no business participating in this conversation.	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform true true.	[20:37]
jurov	mats and avoid trim mount option, run fstrim every day or so instead	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	davout it's really a very complex problem, "what to do".	[20:37]
mats	jurov: ok thanks, will look into it	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	obviously, a scenario where block congestion is a real problem may be constructed. it may even, in principle happen.	[20:38]
davout	mircea_popescu: when in doubt, make a ruby framework	[20:38]
*	assbot removes voice from STRML	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	but in this sense, a scenario where gavin has gay sex with midgets can also be constructed. so let's put him in prison for it,	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	because maybe it's against the law.	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy << i knew there was a reason i liked you!	[20:40]
mats	anyone has warez of letters to shareholders 65-77?	[20:41]
mircea_popescu	there was that site had the lot of em	[20:43]
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mircea_popescu	mats oh i see what you mean o.O	[20:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00049947 = 14.0851 BTC [-]	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	http://www.wikihow.com/Contact-Warren-Buffett << this is like the lulziest shit ever	[20:49]
assbot	4 Ways to Contact Warren Buffett - wikiHow ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gxyba7 )	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	"how to survive as a moron : wikihow!"	[20:50]
*	diana_coman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	" My point is the point of Bitcoin is I can make a transaction to anybody in the world" << uhh.... if this is the point of bitcoin then bitcoin has at all points been so far offpoint it's a wonder it's still here.	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	this is r/buttcoin/ level understanding of bitcoin, for srs.	[20:53]
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jurov	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t4ml5/i_live_in_russia_my_family_is_in_us_heres_our/ << related. also highlighted on r/buttcoin	[20:55]
assbot	I live in Russia & my family is in U.S. here's our experience using Bitcoin for remittance. : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gxzu93 )	[20:55]
jurov	i start grasping asciilifeform's problems with btc, too	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	jurov for what it's worth, here's my experience with bitcoin remittances : i sent btc to otc correspondents, ordered wires sent out to the hk account of my local agent, who has paid me dollars, in cash, in argentina. the entire process took less than what it takes to get a letter of credit, and significantly less than what international trade normally settles in.	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	i could, if i were so inclined, finance a nuclear programme or pay for some murders in this manner.	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	and exactly nobody would ever know, exactly how the foregoing episode is known specifically and exclusively because i chose to share it.	[20:58]
jurov	i gather if alf received such wires, they'd ship him straight to azkaban	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	so, spare me the reddit nonsense. bitcoin, money, and good stuff aren't for poor people.	[20:58]
asciilifeform	jurov: to be fair, the 'problems' i have all stem from the fact of being paid, and having expenses in, fiat.	[20:58]
asciilifeform	jurov: and not merely any fiat, but electronic, 'banked' bezzlars.	[20:59]
asciilifeform	jurov: nothing keeps me from receiving or sending wires, but anything that goes in - is insta-taxable	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	that said, remittances in the us are a total nightmare, because a) the us is principally insane and b) the entrenched interests of current processors work against the customers.	[21:00]
asciilifeform	jurov: and, if above a certain amount (in or out) 'nice folks' will arrive with pointed questions.	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	so for people needing a hundred bucks moved, it's hell on earth.	[21:00]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: pay for your drugs with cash :P	[21:01]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: cash found where?	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	What are more safe alternatives in U.S. to fix our problem? (We can't afford losing our last $50) << this.	[21:01]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: may as well become counterfeiter if doing dope ?	[21:01]
thestringpuller	slowly take out x cash of bank every week	[21:01]
thestringpuller	until you have stack of benji's	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS trying to maintain trading networks that span continents.	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	they just don't.	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	wtf is this, derpy guy going to hansa agent in riga cca 1315, "hello this is my very valuable small river rock, how can i send it to london ???"	[21:02]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: you remind me of a legend, possibly soviet, regarding a fellow who took a part home from the factory every day for half a century, built airplane.	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this is a johny cash song	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIuo0KIqD_E	[21:03]
assbot	johnny cash-one piece at a time - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1wpgKxq )	[21:03]
asciilifeform	lol!	[21:04]
mod6	great song	[21:06]
mircea_popescu	mhm	[21:06]
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asciilifeform	people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS... << anyone have an idea of what hawaladars do re: minimal volumes ?	[21:09]
asciilifeform	i bet they happily move the 50.	[21:09]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes. they made women and children dependent on a man.	[21:09]
asciilifeform	wai, wat, hawaladars ?	[21:09]
mircea_popescu	ie, "offchain txn/poorcoin"	[21:09]
asciilifeform	aha	[21:09]
asciilifeform	i was specifically curious re: what a hawaladar in, e.g., usa, or eu, would charge to move 50 usd.	[21:10]
asciilifeform	as a kind of baseline.	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	he won't charge anything. how did the quote go,	[21:11]
mircea_popescu	"Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day."	[21:11]
mircea_popescu	there. that's the charge on 50 bux.	[21:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41247 @ 0.00049243 = 20.3113 BTC [-]	[21:11]
asciilifeform	aha	[21:11]
asciilifeform	'gifteconomy'	[21:11]
mircea_popescu	people who imagine endlessness is a natural phenomena need to spend less time cooped up in their rooms, dreaming up shit.	[21:12]
asciilifeform	to folks unacquainted with basic physics, mechanization gives a convincing illusion of 'phree stuff 4ever'	[21:12]
mircea_popescu	right.	[21:12]
asciilifeform	because all you need is, would appear to be, energy, and everybody knows that it comes from the mains socket.	[21:13]
asciilifeform	because god willed it.	[21:13]
mircea_popescu	and cryptographic security oozes out of the ether and miners are just this abstraction getting in the way of the ooze.	[21:13]
mircea_popescu	it will fill any shape and any volume we draw for it. because it must. because... god willed it!	[21:14]
asciilifeform	more generally, when confronted with the mechanical 'guts' of something, this type of person will answer 'get this away from me, it is unclean'	[21:14]
mircea_popescu	"i have never seen it do anything else before" and "who could have predicted"	[21:14]
mircea_popescu	apprentice fucking magicians.	[21:14]
mircea_popescu	where's that great disney cartoon of gavin & co	[21:15]
asciilifeform	'sorcerer's apprentice' ?	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8gOh0wEgLg	[21:15]
assbot	YouTube Walt Disney Fantasia Mickey The Sorcerer's Apprentice - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxFy1j )	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	there. yep.	[21:15]
mircea_popescu	only thing missing being, mickey doesn't put on the sorcerer's hat to go to some conference	[21:15]
asciilifeform	!s the lifeboat mutiny	[21:16]
assbot	0 results for 'the lifeboat mutiny' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=the+lifeboat+mutiny	[21:16]
asciilifeform	http://www.genericradio.com/show.php?id=3e13162d58d2fe5c << ancient radio play based on the tale (which i cannot at present find)	[21:19]
assbot	GENERIC RADIO WORKSHOP OTR SCRIPT: X Minus One ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxGoLr )	[21:19]
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BingoBoingo	to folks unacquainted with basic physics, mechanization gives a convincing illusion of 'phree stuff 4ever' << Until you have to get Santino ready for an open casket funeral after catching every bullet at the tollboth.	[21:22]
asciilifeform	falling is flying until splat, yes, elementarily.	[21:23]
BingoBoingo	And one rarely has much choice in the splat	[21:23]
asciilifeform	choice, if any, was when jumping.	[21:24]
mats	re: previous SSD discussion (and many others), i don't mean to offend if i didn't specifically respond to you. i just had nothing good to say, but rest assured you have not been ignored	[21:24]
thestringpuller	i want moar ssds	[21:24]
thestringpuller	Put all the games on SSDs. no load time. heaven.	[21:24]
asciilifeform	mats: basic takehome lesson re: ssd is that virtually everything coming out the vendors' mouths is a lie	[21:24]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21850 @ 0.00049243 = 10.7596 BTC [-]	[21:24]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Well on the way down they might try to contort themself to leave a particular shape of splat.	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	mats i dunno but i think silence is no way to offend	[21:25]
asciilifeform	mats: if application is safety-critical, buy a series of samples and test to destruction.	[21:25]
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BingoBoingo	!up OmegaOne	[21:25]
*	assbot gives voice to OmegaOne	[21:25]
OmegaOne	hi	[21:25]
mats	is not. tryna bring some life to an old piece of shit	[21:25]
asciilifeform	mats: then happily buy. back up periodically to actual disk.	[21:26]
OmegaOne	hi	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	once's enough OmegaOne. what brings you here ?	[21:26]
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mats	mircea_popescu: ensuring others have room to save face is one of my varied sins	[21:27]
OmegaOne	How can i get rich off of bitcoin?	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	easiest way to make a small fortune in bitcoin	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	is to start with a large one.	[21:27]
OmegaOne	how much is $1000 worth in bitcoin land	[21:27]
mats	;;calc 1000/[market --last]	[21:28]
gribble	Error: The "Market" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "--last" in it. Try "list Market" to see the commands in the "Market" plugin.	[21:28]
mats	;;calc 1000/[ticker --last]	[21:28]
gribble	4.39290107187	[21:28]
BingoBoingo	;;calc 1000/5000	[21:28]
gribble	0.2	[21:28]
BingoBoingo	OmegaOne: roughly a fifth of a bitcoin at my current sell price	[21:28]
asciilifeform	meowmix is back ?!	[21:29]
OmegaOne	!s meowmix	[21:29]
assbot	22 results for 'meowmix' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=meowmix	[21:29]
OmegaOne	hi	[21:30]
mats	OmegaOne: read logs (see topic) and get a cloak	[21:30]
asciilifeform	!down OmegaOne	[21:30]
*	assbot removes voice from OmegaOne	[21:30]
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BingoBoingo	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t6ksp/coinbase_just_made_tax_accounting_unnecessary/cnw7j3f	[21:32]
assbot	ralphington comments on Coinbase Just Made Tax Accounting Unnecessary! ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxJPBP )	[21:32]
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BingoBoingo	https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2t7nsb/i_grew_a_neckbeard_reading_this_bitcoin/	[21:42]
assbot	I grew a neckbeard reading this "Bitcoin Declaration of Sovereignity" (note: Link doesn't go to the actual Bitcoin Foundation) : Buttcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1AQ4c4y )	[21:42]
BingoBoingo	!up pete_dushenski	[21:42]
*	assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski	[21:42]
pete_dushenski	cheers!	[21:42]
pete_dushenski	since scoopbot even likes davout more than me: http://www.contravex.com/2015/01/22/the-problem-of-digital-identity-or-how-to-circumvent-blockchain-info-2fa-and-e-mail-authorisation/	[21:43]
assbot	The problem of digital identity, or how to circumvent Blockchain.info 2FA and e-mail authorisation \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1AQ4s3N )	[21:43]
pete_dushenski	yet another chapter in the "who could've predicted" chronicle	[21:44]
pete_dushenski	bc.i will just change your e-mail if you ask nicely	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	wut /1	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	lol you just social engineered blockchain.info ?	[21:45]
pete_dushenski	fuck, not even intentionally	[21:46]
pete_dushenski	but ya	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	well... best business practices security an' errything.	[21:46]
pete_dushenski	they actually just added this e-mail auth thing outta nowhere	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	at least you don't log in by filming your face	[21:46]
pete_dushenski	and it turns out that it created a loophole the size of texas	[21:46]
pete_dushenski	thumbprint!	[21:47]
BingoBoingo	"Wallet Inspektor" https://bitcoinos.org/what-is-bitcoinos/	[21:47]
assbot	What is BitcoinOS? \| BitcoinOS ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxNQ9k )	[21:47]
pete_dushenski	if an e-mail and pwd were phishing or keylogged, the attacker just has to submit a form, wait two weeks, and voila!	[21:48]
asciilifeform	yet another 'os'	[21:48]
asciilifeform	i find these especially infuriating.	[21:48]
pete_dushenski	s/phishing/phised	[21:48]
pete_dushenski	phished* good grief	[21:49]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: especially when there is no BSD/kLinux to counter all of these Distro/kBSD	[21:49]
kakobrekla	speaking of bc.info their page is showing 'cloudflare error 522' for more than an hour to me	[21:50]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i don't care what it was made of, if you did not write an os, you did not write an os.	[21:51]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: why this peculiar dick-pulling, why pretend.	[21:51]
undata	asciilifeform: words, you can just tweet them	[21:51]
undata	then they get retweeted you see, and are true	[21:52]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Sure. I'm just saying why don't they pretend better. Instead of throwing on fake spoilers and calling a car customer, this is the "I put a sticker on it" sort of effort.	[21:52]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: and 'write an os', per the barest technical definition, is not high science; it's a standard 'boy scout badge' in school.	[21:52]
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BingoBoingo	asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: and 'write an os', per the barest technical definition, is not high science; it's a standard 'boy scout badge' in school. << You have an absurdly gross overestimation of the standards for Boyscout badges.	[21:53]
undata	asciilifeform: web devs have the idea that making something == cobbling together open source with tape, the less tape the better, and voila, app	[21:53]
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asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i'm speaking as someone who went in for a 'computer science' diploma at an entirely unremarkable american uni.	[21:53]
BingoBoingo	http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Computers << I am speaking as person who achieved computers merit badge	[21:54]
assbot	Computers - MeritBadgeDotOrg ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxOYda )	[21:54]
asciilifeform	wasn't thinking of literal boyscouts, no (i know precious little about them)	[21:54]
BingoBoingo	requirements now actually seem harder now than when I achieved it.	[21:54]
undata	the whole culture is full of fakers; why the surprise at this category of them?	[21:56]
BingoBoingo	Find out about three career opportunities in the computer industry. Pick one and find out the education, training, and experience required for this profession. Discuss this with your counselor, and explain why this profession might interest you. Report what you learn to your counselor. << Doing this one now I'd pick curmudeon as a profession, and ask why writing OS is not a requirement.	[21:57]
pete_dushenski	kakobrekla "schedule maintenance"	[21:57]
undata	this social media thing I think has created the notion that identity is a matter of self-definition	[21:57]
undata	rather than reputation	[21:57]
thestringpuller	o look a pete_dushenski	[21:57]
undata	leading to the mind-rot of multitudes	[21:57]
pete_dushenski	heya stringy	[21:58]
pete_dushenski	undata it seems to me that the popularity of sm is an effect rather than a cause	[21:59]
undata	pete_dushenski: self-reinforcing though	[21:59]
undata	there's a reward associated with the behavior	[21:59]
undata	retweets, w/e	[21:59]
pete_dushenski	the mind-rot has been baking in for a couple of decades	[21:59]
undata	I agree	[21:59]
pete_dushenski	that's just the cleaving of importance from "importance"	[21:59]
pete_dushenski	like russia from the usa	[22:00]
pete_dushenski	russia turns down would-be bond-buyers in droves	[22:00]
pete_dushenski	us media reports that "bond sale fails"	[22:00]
undata	there's something there but I'm not cutting to the root of it	[22:02]
undata	it seems alien to me that words mean precisely dick in the present	[22:02]
pete_dushenski	think of it as word inflation	[22:03]
pete_dushenski	and it's every bit as toxic as fiat inflation	[22:03]
pete_dushenski	creates all kinds of puffed up balloons	[22:03]
undata	right, the erosion of measures of value could very well fuck thinking itself which leads to the abovementioned	[22:03]
pete_dushenski	quite so.	[22:04]
pete_dushenski	when there are no barriers to entry, people get really rather confused	[22:04]
pete_dushenski	in response, they cling to whatever presents itself, quite undiscriminatingly	[22:05]
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pete_dushenski	so it's a markov chain going from shiny toy to shiny app to shiny turd	[22:05]
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*	Kushedout is now known as Kushed	[22:06]
pete_dushenski	as to "words meaning zero" it's more that we're privy, if not downright inundated, with words from people who don't know how to use them	[22:07]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Boy Scout badges in a lot of ways represent American failducation, shit offered as sausage because cylindrical phenomenon.	[22:07]
pete_dushenski	our wots can be so much larger than we can biologically manage that the signal is drowned out by the noise	[22:08]
pete_dushenski	try spending your days on newspaper websites reading about "terrorism" and "celerities" and see if your noodle doesn't turn to mush	[22:08]
pete_dushenski	selective filtering is completely mandatory for a functioning brain, if not in fact the best definition thereof	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform [..] << You have an absurdly gross overestimation of the standards for Boyscout badges << i dunno dude, i never got the "all girlscout nookies" one.	[22:09]
BingoBoingo	try spending your days on newspaper websites reading about "terrorism" and "celerities" and see if your noodle doesn't turn to mush << Helps if you pickle it with ETOH aforehand for preservation.	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	some are fucking hard.	[22:09]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: see song, 'be prepared', tom lehrer	[22:10]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it contains literally 90% of what i know re: boyscouts.	[22:10]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: That's on the unpublished chart.	[22:10]
asciilifeform	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSwjuz_-yao	[22:10]
assbot	Tom Lehrer- Be Prepared - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxTjx1 )	[22:10]
pete_dushenski	https://twitter.com/HistoricalPics/status/558059008993820674 << 1 point for correctly identifying the laptop on the left	[22:11]
assbot	The difference that 25 years makes. http://t.co/Kq9vtUyU82	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	this social media thing I think has created the notion that identity is a matter of self-definition << has little to do with social media tho. it's more an outgrowth of the "civil rights" movement.	[22:12]
*	assbot removes voice from pete_dushenski	[22:13]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: https://twitter.com/BBoingo/status/558068856577884160	[22:13]
assbot	The difference that 25 years makes. http://t.co/Kq9vtUyU82	[22:13]
undata	mircea_popescu: I read your piece recently on how enfranchising all makes for significantly less representation in the society	[22:14]
undata	enlightening	[22:14]
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mircea_popescu	that's the problem, what appears on the surface as doing one thing ends up doing the exact opposite when very complex systems are involved.	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	this is known to medical practitioners since forever. russia's newbie statesmen (commies ) stepped in it with extreme regularity	[22:15]
mats	http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/nicolas-cage-star-osama-bin-765597	[22:15]
assbot	Nicolas Cage to Star in Osama Bin Laden Satire From 'Borat' Director (Exclusive) - The Hollywood Reporter ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxUGeZ )	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	to the point it was pretty much comedic. they didn't TRY to do it. but they did it all the damned time	[22:15]
BingoBoingo	Ah /. prolly link-snipped because on chumpatron take http://slashdot.org/story/15/01/21/2052247/jim-blasko-explains-unbreakable-coin-video-2-of-2	[22:16]
assbot	Jim Blasko Explains 'Unbreakable Coin' (Video 2 of 2) - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxUInd )	[22:16]
BingoBoingo	^ second day, second turd	[22:16]
*	assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski	[22:16]
pete_dushenski	undata mircea_popescu the term for this being, of course, iatrogenics	[22:17]
pete_dushenski	"harm caused by the healer"	[22:17]
pete_dushenski	see: http://www.contravex.com/2014/12/31/the-search-for-decency-and-the-opposite-of-iatrogenics/	[22:17]
assbot	The search for decency and the opposite of iatrogenics \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1ydPvwk )	[22:17]
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mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski yeah. taleb also very big on it	[22:19]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: That's a pretty good summary of it. Gotta hide the smokes.	[22:24]
BingoBoingo	So... Bunch of girlies are going to destroy their knees this summer http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-womens-world-cup-lawsuit-artificial-turf-20150121-story.html	[22:27]
assbot	Women's World Cup to go forward on artificial turf - LA Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1GxXKaZ )	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	!up CoraCrisT	[22:34]
-assbot-	You voiced CoraCrisT for 30 minutes.	[22:34]
*	assbot gives voice to CoraCrisT	[22:34]
CoraCrisT	hey guys!	[22:34]
kakobrekla	hello	[22:35]
mircea_popescu	sup.	[22:36]
CoraCrisT	enjoying myself with gavin`s wannabee reformed theology	[22:37]
CoraCrisT	readin` the logs..	[22:37]
mircea_popescu	lol that's one way to put it	[22:37]
CoraCrisT	i`m still amazed	[22:37]
CoraCrisT	too bad he left so early..	[22:38]
CoraCrisT	so Kim Kardashian is publishing her new book/photo album called Selfie or Selfish... Amazon is selling a book with Satoshi`s posts from bitcointalk and gavin wants to hard fork bitcoin...	[22:42]
CoraCrisT	true history..	[22:42]
BingoBoingo	!b 2	[22:43]
assbot	Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/28K0DHH.txt )	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	kim's book i'd buy.	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	madonna's book/photo album was pretty hot	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	(the one where she fucks naomi campbell)	[22:45]
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*	CoraCrisT googeling now	[22:47]
undata	CoraCrisT: as if we all didnt just	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	what, srsly ? that's one of pop culture's most notable artefacts!	[22:51]
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kakobrekla	hey, you are the pop culture expert!	[22:53]
BingoBoingo	God Damn. It won't be until round 4 of the Australian open that a Serena Williams / Alize Cornet rematch is possible.	[22:53]
BingoBoingo	Fuck, its worse, round 5, I skipped a round	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	that cornet chick's pretty good huh.	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla so i am. professional curse.	[22:54]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Good, but Exceptionally good against Serena specifically.	[22:54]
BingoBoingo	Usually when she beats serena she gets promptly knocked out of whatever tournament a round or two later.	[22:55]
BingoBoingo	But first she has to make it all of the way to round 5.	[22:55]
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mircea_popescu	hm	[22:57]
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*	BingoBoingo doesn't always invest on Forum/Reddit logic, but when I do, I do it from an informed position	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	and with a laser.	[22:59]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00085967 = 4.2984 BTC [-] {9}	[22:59]
BingoBoingo	These occasions only happen a few times a year. Why not take whatever scam odds a shady book offers to turn no more than 0.2 BTC into 1 BTC.	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	what were the odds ?	[23:00]
BingoBoingo	It depends, but usually I win when odds in favor of Serena drop to under multiplying my stake by ten as the payout.	[23:00]
BingoBoingo	So far it has been incredibly +Ev for me personally, but dunno how long it will last as serena continues getting old.	[23:01]
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mircea_popescu	!up bertani_	[23:04]
-assbot-	You voiced bertani_ for 30 minutes.	[23:05]
*	assbot gives voice to bertani_	[23:05]
*	assbot removes voice from CoraCrisT	[23:05]
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BingoBoingo	O.o nubbins` why aren't you giving us the blow by blow on this drama? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=930649.msg10232533#msg10232533	[23:11]
assbot	Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( http://bit.ly/1umOls6 )	[23:11]
*	Pasha is now known as Cory	[23:12]
asciilifeform	satoshi book << i have it.	[23:17]
asciilifeform	there is nothing evil in it, and the first page is 'this is public domain material, copy freely' even.	[23:17]
asciilifeform	convenient dead tree collection of the material.	[23:18]
asciilifeform	the author mostly resisted the temptation to add crud	[23:18]
pete_dushenski	i have it too	[23:18]
pete_dushenski	foreword by jeff berwick if memory serves	[23:18]
ben_vulpes	oh jesus i return	[23:18]
pete_dushenski	he of "i'm not going to prison" fame	[23:18]
ben_vulpes	undata recommended me an emacs config change that took hours to unsnarl	[23:19]
ben_vulpes	granted, 'twas my own fault for not unsnarling it more quickly.	[23:19]
ben_vulpes	?rate undata -2 fucked my .emacs	[23:19]
undata	bwah hah ha	[23:19]
undata	w/e you gave into your own tooling lust	[23:19]
undata	I was merely a mirror!	[23:19]
ben_vulpes	dood there must only be one canonical window manager	[23:19]
ben_vulpes	and emacs is not it	[23:19]
ben_vulpes	tooling lust << no it's true	[23:20]
ben_vulpes	[] i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it << severely lacking in the whole conversation	[23:20]
asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: i had no idea who. just read as 'some guy'. (skipped.)	[23:21]
pete_dushenski	wise	[23:21]
*	xanthyos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[23:22]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform had a canadian "investment forum" thing	[23:23]
BingoBoingo	https://hashtalk.org/topic/29906/what-did-you-do-with-the-initial-ico-resources-investment << WFT'ening http://dpaste.com/2Y9D905	[23:23]
assbot	Just a moment... ... ( http://bit.ly/1umOWKq )	[23:23]
assbot	dpaste: 2Y9D905 ... ( http://bit.ly/1umOU5h )	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	then went nutso with one of the "libertarian island" things which smells a lot like scam.	[23:23]
asciilifeform	lol!	[23:23]
pete_dushenski	galt's gulch	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/	[23:24]
assbot	So the Dollar Vigilante scam ring is going to jail. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1umOXOr )	[23:24]
asciilifeform	incidentally, this is rather like selling 'superman's cape' sans flight	[23:24]
asciilifeform	(the 'galt's gulch' in the book - had an invisibility machine.)	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[23:25]
*	xanthyos (xanthyos@silenceisdefeat.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:25]
*	xanthyos has quit (Changing host)	[23:27]
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*	assbot gives voice to xanthyos	[23:28]
*	Pierre_Rochard (~Pierre@unaffiliated/pierre-rochard/x-3593157) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:32]
BingoBoingo	!up Pierre_Rochard	[23:32]
*	assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard	[23:32]
*	Dr-G3 (~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:33]
*	Dr-G2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[23:37]
*	assbot removes voice from bertani_	[23:37]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00083238 = 1.6648 BTC [-] {8}	[23:37]
*	assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard	[23:38]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2619 @ 0.00080581 = 2.1104 BTC [-] {8}	[23:38]
*	devthedev (~devthedev@unaffiliated/devthedev) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:48]
BingoBoingo	!up devthedev	[23:49]
*	assbot gives voice to devthedev	[23:49]

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