Forum logs for 21 Jan 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
Luke-Jr why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw? [00:01]
* assbot removes voice from Luke-Jr [00:01]
scoopbot New post on by cazalla: [00:02]
mod6 i cant believe im going to do this [00:02]
mod6 !up Luke-Jr [00:02]
* assbot gives voice to Luke-Jr [00:02]
mod6 it was selected because "reasons" [00:03]
Luke-Jr I think the db_config patch may explain why it works, but could be potentially inadequate for the current consensus rules [00:03]
Luke-Jr looks like Gavin's recommendations, which were lame [00:04]
mod6 which are those? [00:04]
Luke-Jr dunno, it's lost in history now [00:04]
Luke-Jr the 0.5.x backport just changed set_lk_max_locks to 537000 [00:05]
Luke-Jr not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max.. [00:05]
felipelalli MPEx are going to negotiate Gavin Coins? [00:06]
nubbins` <+Luke-Jr> why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw? <<< i said 0.6.1... [00:07]
nubbins` it was decided that 0.5.3 was the earliest that'd still work. [00:07]
nubbins` or rather, that 0.5.3 was the point at which no further breaking changes were implemented [00:07]
Luke-Jr nubbins`: 0.4.9rc3 should work I think [00:08]
Luke-Jr I maintained that up until Sep 2013 [00:08]
decimation [00:08]
assbot bitcoin/db.cpp at master · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( ) [00:08]
Luke-Jr including through the 0.8.1 hardfork [00:08]
Luke-Jr decimation: Bitcoin Core does not use bdb for the blockchain [00:09]
Luke-Jr since 0.8.0 [00:09]
Luke-Jr ie, those limits are for the wallet [00:09]
Luke-Jr is the 0.4.x commit for the hardfork [00:11]
assbot Bugfix: Bump lk_max_locks default to 537000, to safely handle reorgs ... - Gitorious ... ( ) [00:11]
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Luke-Jr is also informative in that respect [00:12]
assbot Check effective maximum bdb locks (possibly overridden in DB_CONFIG),... - Gitorious ... ( ) [00:12]
* mod6 looks [00:12]
nubbins` tracking down vintage 0.5.3 and applying .foundation patches = fun times [00:15]
nubbins` start with chicken.tar.gz and go from there [00:16]
mod6 i've got a script now... [00:16]
mod6 but i'll publish it to the list with some refinements before the end of the month [00:16]
nubbins` it's all in easily-digestible chunks, no sweat to eyeball each patch & fully understand what's going on [00:16]
* mod6 finds [00:16]
Luke-Jr "tracking down" as if it's disappeared [00:16]
nubbins` did YOU save the MD5 sums? 8) [00:16]
Luke-Jr nubbins`: my git client did [00:17]
Luke-Jr also, MD5 is not safe for this [00:17]
nubbins` and so disappearing is not precisely the concern :D [00:17]
mod6 [00:17]
assbot ... ( ) [00:17]
mod6 just need to change ``HOME'' to where you wanna build [00:17]
Luke-Jr do you guys dislike git or something? O.o [00:18]
Luke-Jr git basically uses a "blockchain" and makes it very hard to rewrite history [00:18]
mod6 we wanted unified diffs we could sign [00:20]
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Luke-Jr mod6: git supports signing commits [00:22]
Luke-Jr although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them [00:22]
mod6 yeah, there was a whole discussion surrounding this entire process. it's in the logs. [00:23]
Luke-Jr oh well, I guess it's managable if you don't plan to do much maintenance to it [00:23]
decimation Luke-Jr: the idea is that signed patches would be read by people, who would then sign [00:24]
Luke-Jr yeah, it's definitely a shortcoming of git [00:25]
Luke-Jr anyhow, if the goal is oldest version, I'd recommend going off 0.4.x; either way, I'd recommend fixing the bdb hardfork [00:26]
Luke-Jr and I hope Gavin doesn't plan to just ignore DarkWallet and your fork - though I wouldn't be surprised if he did to be honest [00:27]
Luke-Jr might help if the devs here participated in the discussions in #bitcoin-dev when it came up.. maybe [00:27]
decimation I'm not sure folks here are interested in 'maintaining' as much as understanding and recreating [00:28]
asciilifeform Luke-Jr: you're still thinking in terms of persuasion. we don't need to persuade the usg stooge of anything. [00:28]
Luke-Jr asciilifeform: I agree Gavin should persuade you - but he will probably ignore you if you're not there discussing it [00:29]
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Luke-Jr (persuade you, as opposed to you persuading him to stop) [00:29]
Luke-Jr (ugh, I'm being unclear: I mean the onus is on him to convince you, and you shouldn't have to convince him) [00:30]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88901 @ 0.00046346 = 41.2021 BTC [+] {2} [00:31]
mircea_popescu !up Blazedout419 [00:31]
-assbot- You voiced Blazedout419 for 30 minutes. [00:31]
* assbot gives voice to Blazedout419 [00:31]
decimation why would we care what some guy (like gavin) commits into some random github repo? [00:32]
mircea_popescu Blazedout419 hey, my question to you is, did you actually pay 14k for that guy's wooden thing, as represented ? or was it more like a sweetheart sort of deal for advertising sake, like the sillycon valley does ? [00:32]
mircea_popescu i dunno any better, so ima take your word for it. [00:32]
Luke-Jr decimation: it's not "some random github repo", it's the code that most nodes *will* be running unless someone objects [00:33]
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mircea_popescu !up Luke-Jr [00:33]
-assbot- You voiced Luke-Jr for 30 minutes. [00:33]
* assbot gives voice to Luke-Jr [00:33]
Luke-Jr decimation: also, Gavin is no longer the final word for any git repo [00:33]
mircea_popescu when did that happen ? [00:33]
Luke-Jr a few months ago IIRC [00:33]
mircea_popescu nubbins` darling how did YOU get sexist ? [00:33]
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mircea_popescu Luke-Jr anyway, inasmuch as everyone actually wants bitcoin to prevail, divergence of opinion isn't much of a problem. however, the conservative rather than the progressive approach must be observed. change doesn't happen just for the sake of changing things. this isn't a fad or an ipad gizmo. if consensus can't be reached for whatever reason, whoever doesn't like it leaves and starts over, rather than pretending the o [00:38]
mircea_popescu pposite. [00:38]
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Luke-Jr mircea_popescu: I'm definitely in favour of taking a conservative approach, and I'm pretty sure most of the Bitcoin Core team is as well. I think Gavin was probably frustrated earlier when it came up in #bitcoin-dev because nobody could give him a straightforward "way to convince everyone" [00:40]
mircea_popescu sometimes we don't get what we want. that doesn't mean our wants now have a wild card and nothing else matters anymore. this isn't school. [00:41]
mircea_popescu what's next, start assaulting women because "nobody told me how to seduce any woman" ? [00:41]
mircea_popescu seems a little too geeky. [00:42]
Luke-Jr mircea_popescu: If Gavin wanted to force the hardfork, he wouldn't be frustrated at his inability to convince people ;) [00:42]
mircea_popescu im not going to carry that argument. [00:43]
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mircea_popescu !up Trollmeister [00:49]
-assbot- You voiced Trollmeister for 30 minutes. [00:49]
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mircea_popescu !up elgrecoFL [00:49]
-assbot- You voiced elgrecoFL for 30 minutes. [00:49]
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Luke-Jr anyhow, I don't think Gavin knows people here have concerns. I'd suggest doing a writeup of what those concerns are, and what Gavin needs to do if he wants your approval for a hardfork. I know you shouldn't *have to*, but otherwise I don't see any way this is likely to come to a resolution. [00:51]
mircea_popescu people here don't "have concerns". people here are going to skin the fork as proposed so far, no argument there. gavin can start reading or press ahead, either way. [00:52]
Luke-Jr especially if Gavin has the big merchants and exchanges onboard - if they follow his lead on this, everyone who wants to buy stuff with Bitcoin is likely to follow along too, for better or worse [00:53]
mircea_popescu the one large merchant left in bitcoin so far is mpex. [00:53]
Luke-Jr "skin the fork"? [00:53]
mircea_popescu but if you absolutely must see bitpay die before you wake up, it can be arranged. [00:53]
mircea_popescu coinbase made the round, which i guess gains it a little space. NOT that much. [00:53]
Luke-Jr please. how many people actually even use MPEX? [00:53]
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mircea_popescu enough to make me 600 btc in the month bitpay made a loss. [00:53]
Luke-Jr that could be a single person with a lot of volume [00:54]
mircea_popescu point being, mpex is, currently, > 50% of "bitcoin business". like it or not, it's a fact. [00:54]
Luke-Jr head counts matter more than volume sometimes [00:54]
mircea_popescu not in money, no. [00:54]
mircea_popescu but if headcount feels the need to learn this through headcollisions with hard objects, it may. [00:54]
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Luke-Jr I find it very hard to believe MPEX is even 1% of bitcoin business [00:55]
mircea_popescu right. [00:56]
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mircea_popescu it's so far 100% of the bitcoin "told the usg to get fucked" party. once you digest that you might be in a better position to evaluate who matters and who doesn't, [00:56]
mircea_popescu than if going by conference headcounds or w/e. [00:56]
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Luke-Jr look, I respect your right to be free of US interference since you're outside the US, but governmental politics has basically nothing to do with hardforks [00:57]
mircea_popescu globalisation just turned off hm ? [00:58]
Luke-Jr ? [00:58]
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Luke-Jr I can't imagine how the block size is at all related to governments, or why a government would aim to change it. [00:59]
mircea_popescu you don't get a private island just because you want one. things have to do with each other, it's the way of the world. [00:59]
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mircea_popescu listen, arguing to ignorance is really bad engineering. [00:59]
mircea_popescu i don't know why a whale would want to be 20 tons. so what of it. [00:59]
Luke-Jr you think the block size issue is USG-inspired? what do they have to gain from it? [00:59]
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mircea_popescu this is too lengthy a discussion. bitcoin is perceived as a threat by pretty much every central bank, you know that much. [01:00]
Luke-Jr sure - how does that cross over into the block size matter? [01:01]
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mircea_popescu there's many intertwined issues there. the outermost layer is, to establish whether an english speaking cia visitor is even in a position to push through a hardfork. [01:02]
Luke-Jr by himself? then it's a simple "no" I hope [01:03]
Luke-Jr any hardfork needs at least a supermajority of bitcoin users [01:03]
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mircea_popescu his rethoric was different a coupla months ago, and as far as anyone can tell hasn't actually caught up with your representation thereof. [01:04]
mircea_popescu but i guess this is coming [01:04]
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decimation it seems to me that the enemies of bitcoin would love to think that they could 'update' the protocol as they desire [01:07]
decimation like the ietf & http [01:07]
mircea_popescu Luke-Jr: although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them << the idea isn't to sign commits, but to sign reads. << see it's an older point this, about software accountability. [01:09]
assbot Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter. [01:09]
assbot Logged on 22-10-2014 18:53:07; mircea_popescu: it's one thing to trust this rnd function because asciilifeform and 25 others signed on reading it. [01:09]
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mircea_popescu decimation for sure, making it plain that bitcoin isn't a sort of http / pki / dns / ietf / whatever captive protocol in the courtyard of some us dependent or another is quite valuable. first and foremost for bitcoin. [01:10]
mircea_popescu then for everyone using it. [01:10]
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mircea_popescu !up Father_MAXI [01:15]
-assbot- You voiced Father_MAXI for 30 minutes. [01:15]
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ben_vulpes tango is harrrrd [01:16]
mircea_popescu only if you're dancing it. [01:17]
mircea_popescu "Likewise, in the worst case if Bitcoin did overshoot to become centralized alt-coins and the market would again solve the problem." [01:17]
mircea_popescu reading reddit is like drinking old cheese. [01:18]
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mircea_popescu and this is summaries. [01:18]
ben_vulpes anyone getting spammed with CTCP messages from a mramberg? [01:18]
mircea_popescu you can just drop ctcp you know. [01:19]
ben_vulpes i guess i do now [01:20]
mircea_popescu i am kinda shocked nobody is wanting to buy gavincoins from me for a fucking steep discount, incidentally. [01:20]
mircea_popescu this is like ether all over again. "oh we have tons of support!!1" "how come nobody is trading ?" "it';s mystical support. woodcollector knows all about it. we'll send you a private video." etc. [01:21]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00045657 = 9.9989 BTC [-] {2} [01:22]
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mircea_popescu !s pierre_rochard [01:25]
assbot 331 results for 'pierre_rochard' : [01:25]
mircea_popescu ;;later tell pierre_rochard errything fine up there ? [01:26]
gribble The operation succeeded. [01:26]
mircea_popescu this is a pretty lulzy snippet : [01:26]
mircea_popescu "tldr: economically speaking, core dev team should not worry about increasing the block size limit until at the very least we see average transaction fees consistently above the 0.0001 btc 'minimum'. At that point we can revisit this debate. There are other questions about feasibility and politics that I'll leave out." [01:27]
decimation re: woodcollector scam << the one I see in random us fishwrappers is 'fuel saving magnets' [01:27]
mircea_popescu reddit : "You're only looking at the technical side of it. Leaving the 1 MB block size issue for later is risky due to political/social reasons. Every hard fork brings with it uncertainty and risks because it requires wide consensus to be carried out smoothly. As long as these risks hang over the Bitcoin economy, many companies will be hesitant to make long-term commitments to the Bitcoin economy. Afterall, a hard fork [01:27]
mircea_popescu could lead to Bitcoin community splitting into two networks, or a hard fork could end up not happening due to community infighting. Both of these would be disastrous for the Bitcoin economy. [01:27]
mircea_popescu The 1 MB block size limit needs to removed as soon as possible, and replaced with something that scales automatically, rather than through risky hard forks that require political consensus. It's 2015, Microsoft, one of the largest companies in the world, accepts Bitcoin, and the Bitcoin network can only handle 3 transactions per second, unless there is a hard fork. Getting rid of the 1 MB block size limit is long overd [01:27]
mircea_popescu ue. [01:27]
mircea_popescu With the limit in place, Bitcoin runs the risk of stagnating. When the limit is lifted, I predict we will see mass adoption." [01:27]
assbot Fuel saving device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( ) [01:27]
mircea_popescu because a) we deeply care about the "i predicts" of propaganda agents ; b) "hurry up guise, if we don't do it while nobody's looking we won't be able to do it at all" [01:28]
decimation lol yeah joe sixpack is not using bitcoin because of the block size limit [01:28]
mircea_popescu what sort of rotten oats would an ass have to eat to imagine that something that couldn't be done later should be done now. it's the screaming declaration of "we don't represent anyone but wish to rule everyone" [01:28]
mircea_popescu decimation the craftyness of it, tho. who is presented as the golden standard ? microsoft. because why ? [01:29]
mircea_popescu because obviously. [01:29]
mircea_popescu << this makes exquisite companion reading. [01:30]
assbot The battlefield of the future pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [01:30]
decimation the Legislative Assembly was more than happy to recognize Georges Danton as their leader after he marched in front of the 20,000 strong mob [01:31]
mircea_popescu glwt. [01:32]
mircea_popescu reddit mob is not worth the pixels it's printed on. [01:32]
decimation well, one lesson is that Danton had an organization. it is odd that the supposed right-wing supporters of heirarchy are usually out-flanked by their enemies on their left when it comes to organizing the little people [01:34]
mircea_popescu decimation i don't really see it the same way. when nanotube was disappeared earlier this month, gribble got replaced within something like a week. seems to me the organisation's fine. [01:37]
mircea_popescu of course, the right doesn't generally create unruly mobs of idiots that spout nonsense. this, principally, because the right is not comfortable for idiots. [01:37]
mircea_popescu how's this a problem anyway ? pre-bitcoin, pre-gpg, etc, i can see it. today ? who gives a shit ? [01:38]
mircea_popescu similarly one could observe that the soviet union had very impressive victory day parades. sure. this, principally, because the soviet citizen had little better to do, either productively, for leisure or for his own safety. [01:39]
mircea_popescu i'm not about to regret that reagan didn't make more us workers go to party indoctrination class. [01:39]
decimation yeah that's a good point, the heirarchy is too busy running actual business - it doesn't have time to prance around and promise the moon to the sans-culottes [01:41]
mircea_popescu everyone i know that's not dumb is busy doing shit. the people "discussing" on reddit are an entirely different brand. if tomorrow they were replaced with a frog infested pond, what'd happen ? [01:42]
mircea_popescu would you even notice that same day ? that week ? ever ? [01:42]
asciilifeform pond <<< brekekekex koax koax. [01:43]
mircea_popescu "Do you have any anecdotal examples of crypto users on the side lines saying things like, [01:43]
mircea_popescu Yes, I personally have lost enthusiasm for recruiting merchants, because I don't know what will happen once 1 MB block size limit is reached, " [01:43]
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mircea_popescu dude "lost enthusiasm". for what ? for "recruiting merchants". meanwhile... [01:43]
assbot Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [01:43]
mircea_popescu i suppose bitpay "embassy" is still deserted because whatever, people were insecure about what may happen if the bitpie in the sky is smaller than perceived. [01:44]
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mircea_popescu Luke-Jr Name a single Bitcoin expert who thinks 1 MB blocks will be sufficient forever? << 1mb blocks MAY be sufficient forever. [01:46]
mircea_popescu the onus to show that they DEFINITELY WILL NOT BE is on you lot of "bitcoin experts" [01:46]
decimation asciilifeform: maryland has a surplus of frogs & toads [01:47]
mircea_popescu ;;gettrust mircea_popescu luceo [01:48]
gribble WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user luceo: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 5 via 10 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Tue Jun 12 14:09:09 2012 [01:48]
asciilifeform decimation: wash., d.c. area specifically. swamp. [01:48]
mircea_popescu this idiocy with "Assurance contracts" takes the cake. [01:49]
decimation [01:49]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2015 22:42:34; decimation: at any rate, this is a problem for actual miners to solve in the future, and they will likely despise any actions taken today on their behalf [01:49]
mircea_popescu "hey listen, we have a perfect system that works in proved practice to reward miners. let's replace it with some libertard idiocy that a) provedly never worked in practice and b) for well understood theoretical reasons that we don't like so they don't really exist" [01:49]
mircea_popescu assurance contracts. srsly. what's next, replace wallets with obamacare website ? [01:50]
mircea_popescu will totally work. unless you know, for a few months when launched. and well... if you make a wallet that's not your walletr. [01:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00047253 = 14.1759 BTC [+] [01:51]
decimation 10,000 unborn souls vote for hardfork [01:52]
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mircea_popescu heh [01:52]
mircea_popescu if i wasn't so disinterested i'd have someone mine reddit to get a relative comparison of votes/words wasted on gavin's coin vs neobee [01:54]
mircea_popescu the same sort of rabid idiocy seems to be wafting from both of them. half curious if the same "pr" company hired for both. [01:54]
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undata and libertarians claim to be goldbugs... [01:57]
undata yet they want bitcoin to be the mastercard network [01:58]
asciilifeform 'they' 'want' [01:58]
mircea_popescu quite. no they, and nothing's being particularly wanted. [01:58]
undata this guy, horde of upvoting minions, whoever [01:58]
* undata is merely wondering why anyone would think "supah fast transactions" and not "immutable unit of value for all time" is the thing [02:01]
mircea_popescu because that anyone has no money. [02:01]
mod6 yeah, they're spenders, not savers. [02:02]
asciilifeform this seems more like a question of who folks imagine themselves as, rather than what they are [02:02]
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asciilifeform i would dare to suggest that plenty of folks who haven't anything to save, for instance, like the proper bitcoin quite a bit [02:03]
asciilifeform but others, with enormous incomes (denominated in, e.g., usd) - hate. [02:04]
mircea_popescu good point. [02:04]
mircea_popescu " phantomcircuit Diablo-D3, the real danger here is convincing people who dont truly understand the problem that something is safe which is in fact extremely risky" [02:05]
* asciilifeform is not a rich fellow, and was much poorer still when he read the satoshi paper [02:05]
mircea_popescu basically, gavin has pretty much 0 support in -dev. [02:05]
mircea_popescu but he's willing to buy people drinks in san juan, who knows, maybe then. [02:05]
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asciilifeform speaking of satoshi's paper, i learned by accident that someone sells a printed & bound 'collected satoshi crap' [02:06]
asciilifeform not incl. the 0.1 source, unfortunately [02:06]
mircea_popescu i don't think the 0.1 source was ever actually released [02:08]
* asciilifeform distinctly recalls a tarball with that label [02:08]
asciilifeform [02:09]
assbot Original Bitcoin Source Code Archives - - bitcoin trading buy/sell classifieds forum ... ( ) [02:09]
asciilifeform ^ seems to have it [02:09]
mircea_popescu uh [02:10]
asciilifeform i once worked with a fellow who had a poster containing, in reasonably readable print, linux 0.01 kernel. [02:10]
mircea_popescu you know, that's the guy that came up with a glbse asset that consisted of buying lottery tickets ? [02:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: for all i know, it's hitler. [02:10]
mircea_popescu but anyway, i rly dun recall, mebbe it was after all. [02:10]
mod6 lol [02:11]
mircea_popescu i had thought it started with 2.something [02:11]
asciilifeform 0.1.3 seems to be the earliest mass-circulated version. [02:11]
asciilifeform << claims to be a copy [02:11]
assbot original-bitcoin/src at master · trottier/original-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( ) [02:11]
mircea_popescu ah ok 1.3 [02:12]
asciilifeform incidentally, it would be very spiffy if someone here (specifically) has a vintage copy of either of these on his disk, from those days, and would be willing to sign it. [02:12]
asciilifeform lottery hitler probably has not the brain mass to doctor his archive, but why leave it to fate. [02:13]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform incidentally, re go : you know the only other bitcoin implementation is btcd, written in go ? [02:13]
mod6 asciilifeform: werd [02:13]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there was another, iirc, in c [02:13]
mircea_popescu i thought that one died. [02:13]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i have not tested it [02:13]
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asciilifeform there is also something that looked, on cursory inspection, quite like a bitcoind, in python [02:14]
asciilifeform haven't tried it either. [02:14]
mircea_popescu that died a year prior to the cx [02:14]
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asciilifeform there is even, apparently, a haskell version. [02:15]
asciilifeform (haven't tried, ...) [02:15]
asciilifeform [02:15]
assbot haskoin/haskoin · GitHub ... ( ) [02:15]
mod6 bitcoin in C is sexy [02:16]
asciilifeform now, whether even one of these (or ones not mentioned here) is fit for use in anger, on the battlefield - i cannot say. [02:17]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00045216 = 28.1244 BTC [-] {2} [02:28]
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Pierre_Rochard “errything fine up there ?” <- debatable, I’ve been studying tax accounting, which can be deleterious to the mind [02:29]
mircea_popescu o there he is. [02:30]
Pierre_Rochard The point I was trying to make is that Gavinonomics has no notion of demand elasticity for bitcoin transactions [02:31]
mircea_popescu how's the "talking sense at redditards" business going ? [02:31]
Pierre_Rochard horribly, it’s a particularly terrible form of procrastination [02:31]
mircea_popescu it doesn't seem to have much notion of economics in any sense. [02:31]
mircea_popescu hehe i hear that a lot. [02:31]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44800 @ 0.00047758 = 21.3956 BTC [+] {2} [02:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00048855 = 2.4672 BTC [+] [02:56]
mircea_popescu ;;seen bitstein [02:56]
gribble bitstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 5 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: [02:56]
ben_vulpes davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims. << was this a proxy attack on israel? [02:57]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes for all i know it was just overflowing idiocy. [02:57]
ben_vulpes it being the jewish center? [02:57]
ben_vulpes the bombing? [02:57]
mircea_popescu well both. [02:58]
mircea_popescu there's no discernible benefit to it or anything. [02:59]
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ben_vulpes any reason to doubt that the usg exchanges and other scum are 'on board' (for what that's worth) ? << it is going to be *fascinating* to see how coinbase et. al are going to handle this [03:00]
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mircea_popescu coinbase made its round, so it may have a little leeway. [03:01]
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mircea_popescu !up coderwill [03:08]
-assbot- You voiced coderwill for 30 minutes. [03:08]
* assbot gives voice to coderwill [03:08]
ben_vulpes << could such a block get 50 confirmations and a reorg happen later? that's not even 10 hours, right? [03:13]
assbot BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 0.13 B (11%) on Yes, 1.07 B (89%) on No | closing in 9 months 4 weeks | weight: 94`308 (100`000 to 1) ... ( ) [03:13]
ben_vulpes sure enough, brief discussion in teh lawgs [03:14]
ben_vulpes then off into a discussion about bitbet mathematical/statistical arcana [03:15]
ben_vulpes god i love you guys [03:15]
mircea_popescu did i miss teh log ?! [03:15]
ben_vulpes lol did you miss it [03:16]
ben_vulpes << you fucking wrote it [03:16]
assbot Logged on 08-01-2015 22:31:37; mircea_popescu: "Gavincoin orphan chain to reach 50 blocks before being abandoned" is kinda not the same as "Blockchain will increase" [03:16]
mircea_popescu that's ... two weeks ago ? [03:16]
ben_vulpes memory loss setting in already? [03:16]
mircea_popescu no but i was expecting today's log. [03:17]
mircea_popescu i thought you were up to date!!1 [03:17]
ben_vulpes anyways [03:17]
mircea_popescu anyway, read today first, get back to 8th after. [03:17]
ben_vulpes no no i went searching for that [03:17]
mircea_popescu oh oh [03:18]
ben_vulpes i'm just sitting here imagining the ways gavincoin could play out [03:18]
mircea_popescu dude im tired. [03:18]
ben_vulpes reading logs [03:18]
ben_vulpes 500 behind [03:18]
ben_vulpes you're tired? [03:18]
mircea_popescu yeah now i see what you mean :) [03:18]
mircea_popescu took me a while. [03:18]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.000465 = 5.6265 BTC [-] [03:21]
ben_vulpes [] not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max.. << lol i love the stream of consciousness as Luke-Jr reads through source [03:25]
mircea_popescu [03:29]
assbot The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( ) [03:29]
mircea_popescu guy actually has a point. [03:29]
mircea_popescu "There is currently no way to guarantee that any two versions of Bitcoin software, whether they are two different versions of Bitcoin Core, two different versions of alternative implementations, a version of Bitcoin Core versus a version of an alternative implementation, or even two copies of the same version of Bitcoin Core built with different compiler versions are in exact consensus agreement. Doing so is incredibly [03:30]
mircea_popescu difficult and borders on impossible. The issue is implementation independent." [03:30]
mircea_popescu "The current solution as proposed by Bitcoin Core is, when you get right down to it, “let’s just be really careful with code changes and hope for the best”. There is no real disaster recovery or prevention plan. Yes, there is ongoing work to split the consensus critical bits out into a library and I think this is a good idea and am glad to see it happening. However, it still does nothing to address the real fun [03:30]
mircea_popescu damental issue stated above nor does it provide disaster recovery or prevention." [03:30]
mircea_popescu meanwhile, gavin's top priority is... you've guessed it. [03:30]
mircea_popescu every single version to date broke something. [03:30]
mircea_popescu usually not that big. sometimes fucking ridiculous (like the one time when they changed versioning) [03:31]
mircea_popescu and yet the "uncertaininty" is generated by imaginary problems. not by this. [03:32]
mircea_popescu sort-of like the man who gets drenched in volcanic eruptions every single week, worrying about meteors falling. [03:33]
ben_vulpes changed versioning? [03:33]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes recall when blocks went from v1 to v2 ? [03:34]
ben_vulpes i don't know if i was around at that point. [03:34]
ben_vulpes wasn't even keeping logs at that point [03:34]
mircea_popescu sometime in 2012 an uncontroversial fork was put in, so that sometime in 2013 blocks are mined with version 2 instead of version 1. [03:35]
ben_vulpes lol so then fork? [03:35]
mircea_popescu except for no particular reason the check was against a signed value (the very careful part), which inadvertently reduced a scarce resource [03:35]
mircea_popescu no, just narrower header. [03:35]
ben_vulpes huh [03:36]
ben_vulpes got a writeup somewhere? i don't understand the implications straight off. [03:36]
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mircea_popescu [03:42]
assbot The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( ) [03:42]
mircea_popescu pity conformal isn't better known. [03:42]
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mircea_popescu ben_vulpes good start : [03:43]
assbot BitcoinStats ... ( ) [03:43]
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ben_vulpes :( [03:51]
ben_vulpes that is a lot of log [03:51]
ben_vulpes and i want to nap [03:51]
mircea_popescu << guy that thinks he invented bitcoin [03:52]
assbot Adam Back (@adam3us) | Twitter ... ( ) [03:52]
mircea_popescu wholla lotta dumb in his funny looking head otherwise. [03:53]
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* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [12:32]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [12:32]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [12:32]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [12:32]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [12:33]
mircea_popescu jesus sifting from all these offline messages left by people who believe enough in the gavincoin to want to buy it for .75 bitcoins each. [12:34]
mircea_popescu THERE'S EXACTLY ZERO OF THEM [12:34]
mircea_popescu apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today. [12:35]
mircea_popescu fatlogic. [12:35]
BingoBoingo Maybe they aren't sure enough yet that there will be a Gavincoin given -dev doesn't seem keen on his stuff. [12:43]
mircea_popescu so poorly managed, bitcoin core. [12:45]
thestringpuller lol. i'm the only anarchist in the office. [12:45]
thestringpuller trying to find another one. [12:45]
mircea_popescu roughly in the position of a hunting party that's out there building sandcastles and collecting flowers. [12:45]
thestringpuller too bad conformal is written in Go [12:46]
thestringpuller (jk) [12:46]
mircea_popescu nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb. [12:46]
BingoBoingo Yeah they need to find another sporting venture, because it is perfectly fine to be a fishing party while sitting around drinking beer. [12:46]
mircea_popescu now that's a point. [12:46]
kakobrekla 1. otc order book is dead, 2. noone is taking offer seriously, 3. everything else is delusion [12:47]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla yeah, and they all work because 4. none of these derps actually matters in bitcoin. [12:47]
thestringpuller mircea_popescu: nah, writing everthing in c++ is dumb. << wasn't bitcoin-qt 0.1 in Visual C++? that was even worse [12:47]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25950 @ 0.00048323 = 12.5398 BTC [-] {2} [12:48]
mircea_popescu "oh i have 50 btc in a wallet somewhere, i contributed 5000 lines of code to bitcoin core that will have to be taken out later at considerable expense and i go to all th conferences if some scammer is paying the airfare (coach)" [12:48]
thestringpuller i remember opening source code back in 2010 on my machine, and seeing everything chmod 777 [12:48]
mircea_popescu this is what is supposed to impress me ? [12:48]
BingoBoingo I mean I have no problem with killing animals for food, but I prefer fishing to hunting because fishing has better complimentary activities you can multitask with it. [12:48]
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mircea_popescu thestringpuller monolitic c at least had some rationale back in 1980. but c++ is not c, and for that matter the year's not 1980 either [12:49]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i don't know any fat hunters. i know precious few slender fishermen. [12:49]
thestringpuller well anything you do in C++ you can do in C. like that song (anything you can do I can do better) [12:49]
mircea_popescu this is doubtful, but i'll let asciilifeform argue it. [12:50]
BingoBoingo Here I tend to see lots of fat hunters. [12:50]
thestringpuller BingoBoingo: This is also the rationale behind a baseball game on a hot summer day. Grrr...we need to go to one this ear [12:50]
kakobrekla what a landing page [12:50]
assbot ... ( ) [12:50]
kakobrekla ultra retarded on at least 2 levels [12:50]
mircea_popescu jesus. [12:50]
mircea_popescu yeah, totally need more adoption so the various scammers with bootstrap websites can burn more noobs. [12:51]
thestringpuller ^- this is becoming pervasive in corporate world too [12:52]
* xanthyos [12:52]
thestringpuller marketing design sector was told, "You need to incorporate more photography" [12:52]
thestringpuller "in the website" [12:52]
kakobrekla how do they know for sure its gonna go up and how do you save if its gonna go up if you borrow now i dunno is the loan fiat based ? [12:52]
thestringpuller "Why so we can use more bandwidth?" [12:52]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla it's btcjam : if you don't simply forget all about your website account, you can always just not pay later on. [12:53]
kakobrekla aha hehe [12:53]
mircea_popescu but yeah, pretty epic. [12:53]
mircea_popescu atually ima do a write-up :D [12:53]
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davout thestringpuller: i thought visual c++ was just an ide [13:00]
mircea_popescu nah it's a language [13:01]
danielpbarron mircea_popescu> apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today. << should better offer it at 25% over, otherwise they are admitting their coin has the lower value [13:03]
mircea_popescu danielpbarron that's what im doing. [13:03]
mircea_popescu pay 750 bitcoin today, receive 1000 gavincoins. [13:03]
danielpbarron ok so make it, pay 1000 bitcoin today, get 750 gavincoin later; that way theirs is framed as the more valuable one [13:05]
mircea_popescu o.O [13:06]
mircea_popescu you do that ? i'm curious to see this one. [13:06]
mats [13:07]
assbot Security Day 2015 - Lille 1 ... ( ) [13:07]
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* danielpbarron is just being silly [13:07]
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thestringpuller davout: i guess more the windows bindings. Like MFC etc. [13:10]
thestringpuller davout: i use VC as a catch all like VB [13:11]
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davout ah, so it looks like c++ with a bunch of extra packages [13:11]
thestringpuller yea. original bitcoin source code has tons of that in it [13:12]
thestringpuller i think asciilifeform submitted patch to gut all of it out. [13:12]
artifexd 6 days of logs... smh [13:12]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53866 @ 0.00049795 = 26.8226 BTC [+] {2} [13:14]
nubbins` oh my god, what if that wood collector guy illegally imports wood and Blazedout419 was working undercover with customs?! [13:14]
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BingoBoingo nubbins`: Link? [13:15]
danielpbarron didn't WC brag about having access to illegal woods? [13:16]
BingoBoingo davout: Also different standard libraries. Microsoft Visual X language is almost always different from X proper. [13:16]
davout BingoBoingo: yeah, so a different language for all practical purposes [13:20]
BingoBoingo davout: Yeah. Even different in the most basic things, fucking iostream.h [13:21]
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nubbins` BingoBoingo j/k [13:23]
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nubbins` i know he's not a shill and he's not a fool, but beyond that... shrug [13:24]
nubbins` ;;rated Blazedout419 [13:24]
gribble You rated user Blazedout419 on Sun Mar 2 12:59:46 2014, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: trusted trader. [13:24]
BingoBoingo [13:25]
assbot 4Chan’s Moot Now Forcing Mods To Sign Legal Contract That Reveals Their Identity ... ( ) [13:25]
BingoBoingo nubbins`: He's kind of anti-kako. While anything kako calls scam is scam andything Blazedout419 gravitates towards tends to burn him. [13:25]
nubbins` but kako's so friendly. [13:26]
danielpbarron he probably wanted to show off having lots of BTC to his forum buddies / that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality [13:26]
BingoBoingo danielpbarron: that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality << tends to be what burns Blazedout419 [13:27]
kakobrekla maybe he was reading #b-a on how art keeps getting record high prices and battles inflation and though he was getting a piece of hedge [13:28]
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thestringpuller mircea_popescu: regarding paygrade << have you ever seen Inside Man? [13:30]
mircea_popescu davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date. [13:30]
davout mircea_popescu: "Cette entrée a été publiée dans Bitcoin le janvier 21, 2015" [13:30]
mircea_popescu damn i missed that. [13:31]
mircea_popescu i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D [13:31]
mircea_popescu "The fundamental pain point here, is that Gavin insists on everyone being able to get in, instead of allowing a sane transaction fee market to emerge, by letting the blocks actually fill-up." [13:31]
thestringpuller davout: makes me want to pick up french again. [13:31]
davout it's true it's not very clear though, being at the bottom [13:31]
thestringpuller so I can read Snowpiercer in french. [13:31]
mircea_popescu here's the thing : the vc circus has created an entire culture of these idiots. "grow fast make no money sell out" [13:31]
mircea_popescu maybe this has merits as a website develoipment paradigm [13:32]
mircea_popescu dubious. [13:32]
davout also "le janvier 21, 2015" isn't correct french :/ [13:32]
mircea_popescu it CERTAINLY has no value as a bitcoin development paradigm, because well... BITCOIN IS NOT FOR SALE. [13:32]
davout thestringpuller: what's snowpiercer? [13:32]
mircea_popescu not in the sense where some vcs come on later, pat us on the head, give each a car and wipe us out. [13:32]
nubbins` snowpiercer, lel [13:32]
mircea_popescu bitcoin is here to make those vcs beggars. [13:32]
nubbins` SNOWPIERCER [13:32]
nubbins` WE SWEAR IT MAKES SENSE [13:32]
thestringpuller its called Le Transperceneige [13:33]
thestringpuller in franche [13:33]
thestringpuller [13:33]
thestringpuller france*** [13:33]
* chetty repeats self "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" [13:33]
davout oic [13:33]
nubbins` interestingly, they choose to waste their fuel on locomotion rather than as a heat source [13:33]
nubbins` because if all that's left is a train, you better believe we're gonna make it run! [13:33]
thestringpuller nubbins`: the train runs on perpetual motion donchakno? [13:34]
nubbins` o [13:34]
mircea_popescu " Ah— so you’re saying we should decrease the 1MB limit, so there are higher fees and miners make more money?" [13:35]
mircea_popescu such facetious bs. [13:35]
mircea_popescu "i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?" [13:35]
mircea_popescu no you fucking idiot that there's no other. [13:35]
mircea_popescu you are ill qualified to as much as change a fucking version in the bvlocks, let alone the database. [13:35]
mircea_popescu stop pretending like you can push walls around and go take your ritalin. [13:36]
mircea_popescu jesus fuck. [13:36]
mats [13:36]
assbot Al Qaeda's YouTube guide for jihadists | Daily Mail Online ... ( ) [13:36]
mircea_popescu actually i suppose thois belongs there. [13:36]
mats an idiot's guide to opsec. [13:37]
mircea_popescu davout "Votre commentaire est en attente de validation." lmao. [13:40]
mircea_popescu webfrench is such lulzfrench [13:40]
davout c'est pourtant du français correct :) [13:40]
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davout this is actually lulzier -> "Fièrement propulsé par WordPress" [13:42]
davout "Proudly propelled by wordpress" [13:43]
davout i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists [13:45]
thestringpuller gotta make sure french language stays pure against all the hoodlums and their slang [13:46]
davout fuck oui [13:46]
mircea_popescu propulse lol [13:47]
mircea_popescu does that stricly mean kinetic ? [13:47]
davout yes [13:47]
davout actually the people from Québec might be even more hardcore protectors of french purity than the people from france [13:48]
davout their accent and some of their expressions are extremely cute tho [13:49]
scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: [13:49]
mircea_popescu << someone put it up on reddit ? i don't recall if dman was ever there. [13:50]
assbot Gavineries | ... ( ) [13:50]
thestringpuller done [13:51]
davout mircea_popescu: dunno, didn't do it myself, figured it'd be too good for them and get downvoted anyway [13:51]
davout thestringpuller: ty, let's see how that goes [13:51]
davout thestringpuller: also link? [13:51]
mircea_popescu davout yeah but why should you be spared the sort of idiocy living there. [13:51]
mircea_popescu davout anyway, where was this convo ? [13:52]
mircea_popescu seems kinda bizarre gavin still pretends like he's had a public discussion about this but so far has not quite got his courage up enough to bring his hairball of non sequiturs, wild jumps and logic holes over here. [13:52]
davout mircea_popescu: private, he pm'd me on btctalk after seeing me comment on the fork off thread [13:53]
mircea_popescu well, tell him he has a chance to be heard, and learn exactly why he is wrong and generally grow as a person. [13:53]
thestringpuller [13:53]
thestringpuller upvote for visibility etc. etc. [13:54]
thestringpuller interested to see low paygraders try to interpret it [13:54]
thestringpuller aka redditards [13:54]
mircea_popescu paygraders eh ? [13:54]
mircea_popescu there's two kind of idiots in this world : the retrograde, and the paygrade. [13:55]
mircea_popescu "I’m waiting for somebody to notice us greedy early adopters get a free ride on transaction fees and complain....." [13:55]
mircea_popescu that's what "free ride" is now. having built value over time is a "free ride" [13:55]
mircea_popescu how dumb does one get ? [13:56]
mircea_popescu hey gavin ? YOU ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE. you're pretty much the only one. you're a middling software engineer that is STILL leeching some historical happenstance., [13:56]
thestringpuller this is probably why rappers retire after 30 [13:56]
mircea_popescu nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you! [13:56]
thestringpuller (excluding Jay-Z) [13:56]
mircea_popescu jesus. [13:57]
davout "if you want to come in #bitcoin-assets and argue a bit your proposal, a bunch of folks would be interested" <<< let's see how that goes [13:57]
davout "can’t right now, have a lunch meeting. Happy to another time" [13:58]
mircea_popescu no it's perfect, i have a lunch meeting too. [13:58]
mircea_popescu ima be back in ~3 hours. [13:58]
mircea_popescu would have been a shame to miss all this. [13:58]
davout 3 hour lunch? what are you? french? [13:58]
mircea_popescu oui! [13:59]
chetty 3 hours is a short quick lunch in Argentina [13:59]
davout "gonna get me some subway, see you tomorrow" [13:59]
thestringpuller they have subway in france? [13:59]
davout the perfect duration for a meal is when the end of the previous one overlaps with the beginning of the next one [14:00]
thestringpuller i thought the french frowned upon "american" food [14:00]
davout yeah, we have subway [14:00]
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davout thestringpuller: yes they do, but they love it [14:00]
thestringpuller !b3 [14:01]
thestringpuller Opps nvm. [14:01]
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mike_c hmm.. " justanotheruser: but control of coins != ownership of coins" [14:07]
BingoBoingo wtf [14:08]
mike_c bitcoin-dev is confused about some things. [14:08]
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mod6 o.O [14:10]
danielpbarron it was already posted to reddit: [14:12]
assbot Must-read: Transcript of block-size discussion with Gavin : Bitcoin ... ( ) [14:12]
mike_c i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". [14:12]
mike_c which isn't really true. and the fact of that will become interesting when mpex takes a side on the hard-fork. [14:13]
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undata mike_c: it's that watered down socialist meaning of "own" where it's abstract, not "this is under my control" [14:15]
undata "I own this house." [14:15]
undata no, the bank and state do [14:15]
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asciilifeform !up diametric [14:23]
* assbot gives voice to diametric [14:23]
diametric yay [14:25]
diametric trying to figure out why assbot can't find my key on [14:25]
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asciilifeform kakobrekla ^ [14:25]
kakobrekla does it take like while before it says it cant find it ? [14:26]
kakobrekla eh [14:26]
kakobrekla like=while [14:26]
kakobrekla a while* [14:26]
kakobrekla lol [14:26]
kakobrekla like 60 sec, or is it instant [14:27]
diametric it instantly says it can't find it [14:28]
kakobrekla try in 30 min will you, and if it doenst work then ill do it manually or smth [14:29]
kakobrekla i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot [14:30]
diametric will do [14:31]
davout "Gavin's patience. Wow." [14:31]
davout "that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)" [14:31]
BingoBoingo And like Ghandi he will try to ruin a good thing. [14:32]
BingoBoingo May Gavin be less successful [14:32]
davout "You are 100000% correct. It's funny how easy it is to spot a statist who thinks everything should be controlled instead of letting the market do its job." [14:32]
BingoBoingo lol [14:34]
assbot Brilliant post by /trilema. [14:34]
BingoBoingo loling at the name tweeting trilema [14:34]
* assbot removes voice from diametric [14:54]
asciilifeform !up diametric [14:54]
* assbot gives voice to diametric [14:54]
diametric tried doing it myself again, came back saying it can't find my fingerprint. [14:55]
diametric I'll give it some more time. [14:55]
diametric nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts. [14:56]
nubbins` tyvm, glad you finally got an account ;D [14:58]
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diametric nubbins`: are you actually going to post a video to prove a point to one of his shills/ [15:00]
* nubbins` shrugs [15:01]
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asciilifeform !up gavinandresen [15:03]
* assbot gives voice to gavinandresen [15:03]
gavinandresen howdy y'all [15:04]
kakobrekla hi [15:04]
felipelalli hi! [15:05]
gavinandresen I came here so you can tell me how I’m going to ruin bitcoin (again…) [15:06]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu awake ? [15:06]
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davout gavinandresen: hello [15:07]
kakobrekla [15:07]
assbot Logged on 21-01-2015 16:54:23; mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours. [15:07]
felipelalli gavinandresen: when was the first time that you have "ruined" bitcoin? [15:12]
gavinandresen felipelalli: when we did BIP16 to make multisig wallets easy to deploy [15:12]
gavinandresen … that was a soft fork, not a hard fork, but it still caused people to accuse me of trying to destroy Bitcoin [15:13]
davout felipelalli: that was a soft fork [15:13]
* ben_vulpes sniff [15:14]
* ben_vulpes sniffs [15:14]
ben_vulpes i smell drama [15:14]
felipelalli thank you [15:14]
ben_vulpes is a soft fork not a breaking of bitcoin in some way? [15:15]
gavinandresen a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected. [15:15]
kakobrekla ben_vulpes for drama you need GA and MP present at same time. [15:15]
gavinandresen a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain [15:15]
davout ben_vulpes: a soft fork is making the set of valid blocks smaller, a hard fork is the opposite [15:15]
gavinandresen MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free. [15:16]
ben_vulpes ah, so a breaking of the protocol [15:16]
gavinandresen ben_vulpes: yes; a soft fork makes the protocol more strict. You have to hard fork to make it more lenient. [15:16]
felipelalli davout: nice explanation. It gives a good article in [15:16]
ben_vulpes well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way. [15:17]
felipelalli increase the 21M max coins is possible through a hard fork? [15:17]
gavinandresen ben_vulpes: really? Have read ??? [15:17]
assbot Proposed DERSIG BIP ... ( ) [15:17]
ben_vulpes around *here*, gavinandresen. [15:18]
ben_vulpes not wherever you people get together and wank about "innovation" in the blockchain [15:18]
gavinandresen okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake. [15:18]
ben_vulpes the topic under discussion is the moronic megablock shit, not signature rules. [15:19]
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ben_vulpes "oh look we're also talking about improving things over there so you may as well roll over on the megablocks issue" [15:19]
ben_vulpes no. not happening. [15:20]
felipelalli gavinandresen: theymos said: << (...) Make the change now, but have it take place at a particular date or block number 2 years in the future. Then when the change actually happens, everyone will already be updated because almost no one uses 2-year-old software. Yes, 2 years is a long time, but we'll survive. >> is that possible and why it is a good or bad idea? [15:20]
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gavinandresen felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan. [15:20]
ben_vulpes !gettrust assbot felipelalli [15:21]
assbot Trust relationship from user assbot to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | | [15:21]
kakobrekla that like "dont worry we have 2 years to 'fight'" and then "o shit did we miss it?" 2 years later. [15:21]
felipelalli gavinandresen: do you prefer different? If yes, why? [15:21]
ben_vulpes !rate felipelalli -1 snr penalty [15:21]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [15:21]
asciilifeform the philosophy of the slow poisoner, vs. a fellow willing to knife in broad daylight [15:21]
davout gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code [15:21]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.felipelalli.-1:d220de3c0270b6e3f3f923fa6dbfd6daa164792bb1919eccdca66d6aedf87c4c [15:22]
assbot Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: snr penalty [15:22]
ben_vulpes [15:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64000 @ 0.00047807 = 30.5965 BTC [-] {2} [15:22]
ben_vulpes !down felipelalli [15:22]
* assbot removes voice from felipelalli [15:22]
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kakobrekla well at least down works. [15:23]
davout that escalated rather quickly [15:24]
ben_vulpes obvious plant is obvious [15:24]
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asciilifeform !up diametric [15:24]
* assbot gives voice to diametric [15:24]
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asciilifeform gavinandresen: have you met ? [15:25]
ben_vulpes in any event, gavinandresen, there'll be no more forks from you. you blew it back in the day, and you lost the initiative on this one months ago. [15:25]
assbot ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( ) [15:25]
* Kushedout is now known as Kushed [15:25]
Pierre_Rochard my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.” [15:27]
ben_vulpes horseshit. [15:28]
ben_vulpes there is only bitcoin. [15:28]
Pierre_Rochard My response to that is two-fold: if maximizing revenue to miners is our goal, then shifting marginal demand to substitutes is fine. [15:28]
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ben_vulpes there is only bitcoin, and if one cannot afford the miners fees for inclusion in a block, one does not need to transfer bitcoins enough. [15:29]
Pierre_Rochard Second, there is distance between the total transaction costs of Bitcoin vs the substitutes. So there’s inelasticity in demand [15:29]
Pierre_Rochard So here’s my hypothesis: if we allow the network to hit the block size limit, then we’ll see the transaction fee revenue growth *accelerate*, up until the point that substitution begins happening in earnest, then the fee revenue growth will *decelerate* or stall. [15:30]
ben_vulpes let's at least hit the steady state behavior before starting to diddle with important economic variables like block size. [15:31]
davout Pierre_Rochard: shut up and stop making so much sense [15:31]
Pierre_Rochard that would indicate that demand is inelastic, and it would tell us where the upper bound on bitcoin tx fees roughly is [15:31]
Pierre_Rochard all else equal [15:31]
ben_vulpes yeah, and again we're at the "snapshot of a dynamic thing [15:32]
ben_vulpes " state [15:32]
ben_vulpes [] nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb. << write it in every language, discover interesting bugs. [15:33]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit [15:33]
Pierre_Rochard Now this part may be controversial for some members of b-a, but it’s at the point where fee revenue growth decelerates that the block size should be increased *marginally*, if the goal is to maximize fee revenue [15:33]
davout gavinandresen: why would miners impose a self limit? [15:33]
gavinandresen davout: today, because bigger blocks take a while to propagate. [15:33]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today [15:33]
* assbot removes voice from gavinandresen [15:33]
ben_vulpes Pierre_Rochard: you assume some kind of "goal", and that there's a "we" with it. [15:33]
asciilifeform !up gavinandresen [15:34]
* assbot gives voice to gavinandresen [15:34]
Pierre_Rochard !up gavinandresen [15:34]
* assbot gives voice to gavinandresen [15:34]
davout isn't there a plan to make block propagation O(1) by using headers-first? [15:34]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: what effect do you suppose your enlarged blocks would have on the number of operating full nodes ? [15:34]
gavinandresen davout: when that is fixed by protocol changes, they will have some minimum costs to processing transations plus a little profit [15:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62448 @ 0.00048429 = 30.2429 BTC [+] {2} [15:35]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: see my technical roadmap post for what needs to be done to increase number of full nodes [15:35]
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davout gavinandresen: you're not really answering the question regarding headers-first [15:35]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: if there are no network protocol changes, then we’re in trouble, because number of full nodes may continue to decline [15:35]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: do you intend to donate hard disks to everyone running a full node ? [15:35]
gavinandresen davout: sorry, missed, the question, real-world distraction… [15:35]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: or how otherwise compensate for a 20-fold growth in storage requirement [15:35]
gavinandresen davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes" [15:36]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: storage is not the bottleneck/cost, bandwidth is. [15:36]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: again, go read the technical road map post, section on pruning the chain [15:37]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: i have read it. [15:37]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: and disagree with the entire concept of 'pruning' [15:37]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: okey dokey. [15:37]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: if Satoshi hadn’t slapped on a 1MB blocksize limit, would you be lobbying for a hardfork now to impose one? [15:39]
gavinandresen … execuse me, soft fork.... [15:39]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: yes, I would [15:39]
artifexd !s rsa backdoor [15:39]
assbot 5 results for 'rsa backdoor' : [15:39]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: ok, exactly what would you propose? [15:39]
asciilifeform artifexd: the linked article was a very basic example of 'kleptography' (see our old thread) [15:40]
asciilifeform artifexd: there are considerably subtler ways to diddle rsa key generation. [15:40]
ben_vulpes this is a distraction and poor logic. [15:40]
ben_vulpes there is a 1mb limit. [15:40]
ben_vulpes we are not considering counterfactuals. [15:40]
artifexd Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here. [15:40]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: that we don’t increase the limit until we see what happens to total fee revenue growth after a few months of full blocks [15:40]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: I think we’re there: [15:41]
assbot The Myth Of The Megabyte Bitcoin Block ... ( ) [15:41]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: the 0.10 release’s wallet code includes floating fees, so over the next couple months we should get a much better idea of what is happening fee-wise. [15:42]
Pierre_Rochard then let’s stay there for six months to collect the data [15:42]
Pierre_Rochard ^ great [15:42]
ben_vulpes gavinandresen: the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage. [15:43]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: what information will we get that will influence how large to make blocks? [15:43]
ben_vulpes in fact the entire wallet model is completely broken. [15:43]
ben_vulpes the moronic quest to make the thing occupy as little space on disk as possible precluded you people from selecting a queryable db [15:44]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size.... [15:44]
ben_vulpes and so, you had to track "relevant transactions" in the wallet. [15:44]
gavinandresen ben_vulpes: “patches welcome” Alex Morcos has a patch pending with better fee estimation code. [15:44]
ben_vulpes then you got hosed with the whole "change address" debacle. [15:44]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: they go from little space, to infinite space, as circumstances dictate [15:44]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: fee revenue growth, if it accelerates then demand for btc transactions is relatively inelastic, the point at which it declerates indicates where substitution starts happening. If it’s right away, then you’re right on the economics. If its after a period of faster growth, then we can see what bitcoin transaction fee the market will bear before switching to substitutes [15:45]
ben_vulpes gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal. [15:45]
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ben_vulpes and our stake in the ground (0.5.3) is our indictment of everything that your people have done for the past umpteen months. [15:46]
ben_vulpes it's unnecessary and i reject it. [15:46]
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asciilifeform gavinandresen: we have here an entire project dedicated to undoing everything you and your associates have ever done to bitcoin. [15:46]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: but why would we want to hit the “then substitutes start happening” when we’re in Bitcoin’s infancy? [15:46]
ben_vulpes gavinandresen: and we have the guns, coin and code on our side. [15:47]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: Seems to me it is better to do everything we can to encourage widespread adoption right now. [15:47]
ben_vulpes that is to say, "god". [15:47]
asciilifeform what, precisely, are these 'substitutes' ? [15:47]
asciilifeform i'd much like to know [15:47]
asciilifeform cowrie shells? reichsmarks? u.s. dollars ? [15:47]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: because the substitution would just be happening at the margin [15:47]
asciilifeform or scamchains [15:47]
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ben_vulpes gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be. [15:47]
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asciilifeform ('schelling point' dictates that there can be precisely one blockchain.) [15:48]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: But we’d get probably at least six months, maybe a year or two of substitution because it takes time to roll out a hard forking change [15:48]
asciilifeform again, substitution with what ? [15:48]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough [15:48]
ben_vulpes want to talk about what's hampering adoption? [15:49]
ben_vulpes stale wallet backups that your asshats are responsible for. [15:49]
ben_vulpes non deterministic transaction generation. [15:49]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: okey dokey. What if you’re wrong? [15:49]
ben_vulpes KV stores for a complex data set. [15:49]
ben_vulpes the list goes on. [15:49]
ben_vulpes and you insist on "adding features" instead of fixing your mistakes. [15:49]
gavinandresen Anybody be offended if I ignore ben_vulpes? distracting me…. [15:50]
ben_vulpes ha yeah please [15:50]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: then we see an acceleration of adoption of an altcoin / altcoins in general and react accordingly [15:50]
ben_vulpes don't address any of the *only valid points* being made here. [15:50]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: But you just said you want to let fees go up high enough so, at the margin, some people ARE turned away. [15:50]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: if you only answer one of my question, pray tell, what are the 'substitutes' ? [15:50]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: where might one find some. [15:51]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: that’s right, that’s the signal to increase the block size limit [15:51]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: So, lets say we do see fees rise. How far do we let them rise? Who decides? [15:51]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: i can't afford 'mercedes' so my 'honda' is a fairly good substitute for the machine. but where might one obtain a cheaper, more plentiful ersatz substitute for bitcoin ? [15:51]
ben_vulpes gavinandresen: you cannot construct this conversation on the foundation of fees. you cannot possibly know how fees will behave in steady state or in perpetually inflating block size state. [15:52]
ben_vulpes you've lost all support for these large blocks in -dev [15:52]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: at some point they stop rising because they’re too high for the marginal transactor [15:52]
ben_vulpes you never had any support in -assets [15:52]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: substitutes for Bitcoin are altcoins, sidechains, off-chain transactions, credit cards, wire transfers….. [15:52]
ben_vulpes give. up. [15:52]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: except that these systems are not substitutes for bitcoin. [15:52]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: they don't do the same job. [15:53]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: in theory the miners would decide, in practice the core devs [15:53]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: none of the items you mentioned is a stable, noninflationary, decentralized store of value. [15:53]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: unfortunately, the experience for the marginal transactor is terrible: their transactions just never, ever confirm. Their coins get tied up… [15:54]
asciilifeform turd is not a substitute for sausage, despite the topological similarities. [15:54]
asciilifeform regardless of any perceived shortage of sausage. [15:54]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life [15:54]
* assbot removes voice from diametric [15:55]
asciilifeform !up diametric [15:55]
ben_vulpes gavinandresen: nobody who matters gives a shit about the marginal user. [15:55]
* assbot gives voice to diametric [15:55]
ben_vulpes and their transactions *don't* get tied up forever. [15:55]
ben_vulpes eventually they mature and are prioritized. [15:55]
ben_vulpes this is FUD, plain and simple. [15:56]
ben_vulpes fucking drop it. [15:56]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue [15:56]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody [15:56]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: I think that our disagreement on that premise precludes agreeing on anything downstream of that [15:56]
ben_vulpes Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired. [15:57]
ben_vulpes again. [15:57]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: you’re probably right. Are you a miner yourself? [15:57]
kakobrekla [15:57]
assbot Logged on 11-01-2015 22:33:39; kakobrekla: how do other envision the future when reward goes towards 0. either a btc is worth half a planet or the fees amount per block go up a few orders of magnitude or network is dead [15:57]
kakobrekla which ? [15:57]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations [15:58]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: what do you think of my argument that hash rate and fees are apples and oranges? That people will substitute away from fee-paying transactions to other solutions that use the block chain, which means trying to maximize fees means no guarantee that there will be enough hash rate to secure the chain? [16:00]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: 'other solutions that use the block chain' ? please elaborate. [16:01]
kakobrekla >altcoins, sidechains [16:01]
asciilifeform scamchains. [16:01]
gavinandresen not altcoins— centralized services like Coinbase. Or sidechains. [16:01]
asciilifeform how many need to implode before folks open a game theory textbook and understand that the correct number of blockchains is one ? [16:02]
asciilifeform and what kind of brain damage does it take to see a centralized whatever as any kind of functional substitute for bitcoin ? [16:02]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00049015 = 1.2254 BTC [+] [16:02]
kakobrekla coinbase and the like can be *poof* gone in one day [16:02]
kakobrekla too slow i am, this cake is hindering me [16:03]
ben_vulpes !up lobbes [16:03]
* assbot gives voice to lobbes [16:03]
lobbes gavinandresen: Why are you so set on this 'widespread' adoption notion? It is never going to happen [16:04]
* assbot removes voice from gavinandresen [16:04]
ben_vulpes !up gavinandresen [16:04]
* assbot gives voice to gavinandresen [16:04]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that [16:04]
Pierre_Rochard off-blockchain transactions are taking off, then your argument will have won the day [16:04]
asciilifeform i can almost imagine some fellow advocating the urgency of bringing down megatonnes of gold from the asteroid belt, because failing this, a great many 'gold users' may take to using paper certificates 'as substitute' [16:05]
lobbes as others have stated; bitcoin is not meant for the 'masses' [16:05]
ben_vulpes lobbes: tell him who said it, he's ignoring me. [16:05]
asciilifeform i suspect that he is ignoring most or all of us. [16:05]
ben_vulpes !gettrust assbot gavinandresen [16:05]
assbot Trust relationship from user assbot to user gavinandresen: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | | [16:05]
kakobrekla and i wasnt even insulting. [16:06]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: but my intuition tells me such substitution won’t happen at such a low fee [16:06]
asciilifeform i, for one, would simply like some non-weasel answers to a few basic questions. [16:06]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: this is why you kept getting sucked into arguing with Robert Viragh over plainly stupid shit. [16:06]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) [16:06]
davout gavinandresen: "oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1)" <<< so with that, there's no network bottleneck anymore, at least no real incentive for miners to keep blocks small, right? [16:07]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i do believe i succeeded in ultimately pulling his wings off. [16:07]
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ben_vulpes !rate gavinandresen -5 broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within. [16:07]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [16:07]
ben_vulpes !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.gavinandresen.-5:1b1cb1a93eadfd534bec6d5cdc3328d057c6baa2e6e97b7bfa34e5157384cc73 [16:07]
ben_vulpes [16:07]
assbot Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within. [16:07]
* dooglus is now known as Guest6688 [16:07]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: ok, answers to your questions: I don’t know how many need to implode. And I don’t know what kind of brain damage. [16:07]
ben_vulpes !down gavinandresen [16:07]
* assbot removes voice from gavinandresen [16:07]
kakobrekla cmon he is still emitting [16:08]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: srsly [16:08]
kakobrekla !up gavinandresen [16:08]
* assbot gives voice to gavinandresen [16:08]
ben_vulpes grarrghragr [16:08]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu hasn't even opened up yet [16:08]
gavinandresen davout: Miners would only have the meta-incentive of “we can collectively maximize revenue if we make blocks THIS big” [16:08]
ben_vulpes let him up the spamgun [16:08]
gavinandresen davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen. [16:08]
davout gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol [16:09]
gavinandresen davout: ok, “patches welcome" [16:09]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: it's just a basic blood pressure/cortisol reduction measure [16:09]
davout gavinandresen: “patches welcome" <<< i don't use your wallet tbh [16:09]
gavinandresen davout: great! your wallet can do whatever it likes with respect to fees. [16:10]
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Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm [16:11]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: so you admit that there is not, nor can there be, a non-fraudulent 'substitute' for bitcoin? that altchains, state-minted fiat, cowrie shells, are not in fact equivalent ? [16:11]
Pierre_Rochard increase it at the margin (say 20%) < increase the block size limit [16:11]
BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [16:11]
gribble Current Blocks: 339942 | Current Difficulty: 4.397166205608958E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 340703 | Next Difficulty In: 761 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 42292830486.1 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.81799 [16:11]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: huh? a sidechain to which you transfer BTC value would be a non-fraudulent substitite. [16:12]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: it is fraudulent by virtue of not being the one and only genuine bitcoin. the schelling point. [16:12]
asciilifeform and by being crafted to give the opposite impression. [16:12]
asciilifeform (shit is not a fraudulent form of gold, but 'fool's gold' may be put to use as such) [16:13]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: can you define “much too high limit” ? [16:13]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: one where there is no competition among transactors to get into a block [16:14]
undata right, one would have to reach that state to know [16:14]
asciilifeform the whole concept of a 'sidechain' is an elaborate chumpatron. [16:15]
Pierre_Rochard that is, competition that would at least attempt to maximize transaction fee revenue [16:15]
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gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: fee revenue measured in real prices, yes? [16:15]
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gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: … because driving up real Bitcoin prices is why I think we should do everything possible to encourage widespread adoption [16:16]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: that’s actually a very interesting question because we currently live in a world where miner liabilities are in fiat prices, but in the future that may not be the case. [16:16]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: what even is a sidechain? [16:16]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: another question: why precisely do you wish to rescue those who might be tempted to use 'substitutes' for bitcoin ? [16:17]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? [16:17]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: right, that goes back to bitcoin’s adoption relative to other altcoins. when we see a divergence then we know there’s substitution going on [16:17]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: understand that you are now speaking to a number of people who do not believe inclusiveness itself to be a virtue. a steak eaten by a hundred thousand flies is 'more inclusive' than same stake being eaten by a man. [16:18]
asciilifeform *steak [16:18]
gavinandresen Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob [16:18]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: in your mind, it is a religion? as in, the gods whispered to you that you must bring as many unbelievers as possible into the fold ? [16:19]
gavinandresen asciilifeform: I’ll use tags next time [16:19]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god [16:19]
asciilifeform We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers << what do you suppose the business model of 'aston martin' is ? [16:19]
xanthyos the bible warned us about you gavinandresen [16:19]
Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%. [16:20]
ben_vulpes gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. [16:20]
gavinandresen Ok, if y’all are interested in keeping Bitcoin an exclusive little club… then okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go. [16:20]
Pierre_Rochard so it’s immaterial, yet that transaction fee revenue is super-important for the customers to know, long term this is a viable enterprise that can sustain itself [16:20]
lobbes all you have to do is look at to see that getting clueless people involved for the sake of 'because' just leads to more scamming, and more ignorance [16:20]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: i find it odd that you are interested in inclusion on the user end (transactions) but not the node end [16:21]
asciilifeform gavinandresen: how are 20MB blocks a mechanism of 'inclusion' for folks who wish to continue running full nodes ? [16:21]
asciilifeform full nodes - as in, history-preserving. [16:21]
asciilifeform no 'pruning' bullshit. [16:21]
danielpbarron gavinandresen, what did satoshi write in the very first block?? [16:21]
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gavinandresen I’ve gotta go. Pierre_Rochard, nice chatting with you. [16:22]
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xanthyos nice timing [16:22]
xanthyos faker [16:22]
davout lol [16:22]
* danielpbarron begins writing his indictment [16:23]
mod6 bailiff, bring the witness back to the witness stand [16:23]
davout such convo, much mess, very lol [16:23]
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Pierre_Rochard gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. < this [16:23]
Pierre_Rochard Bitcoin is a ferrari being sold for $10. Increasing the price to $100 will not deter buyers [16:24]
davout poor log readers... [16:24]
kakobrekla the thing is he sees silly-con valley and think the ways of VS are go. [16:24]
kakobrekla VCs* [16:24]
asciilifeform hence ben_vulpes's astute observation, being that the spirit of mr. spam walked again from the grave [16:24]
asciilifeform it is as if all tentacles of the beast spoke with a single voice. [16:25]
asciilifeform not any kind of surprise, incidentally, to a student of history (all soviet bureaucrats likewise spoke in one voice.) [16:25]
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davout "so far I’m not impressed with the quality of the conversation in #bitcoin-assets....." [16:25]
kakobrekla !up diametric still no luck ? [16:25]
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kakobrekla well it was noisy. [16:26]
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kakobrekla not in the quality sense but quantity. [16:27]
mod6 yah. srsly. [16:27]
Pierre_Rochard well if he disagrees on the premise that being fort knox is more important than being a rural walmart then there’s not much to discuss [16:28]
asciilifeform it still escapes me, what he was hoping to achieve by coming here. [16:28]
mod6 davout asked him to come here so he could 'chat' with mp [16:28]
asciilifeform even though we did not get to see this, it is not difficult to imagine how the conversation may have went. [16:30]
asciilifeform folks who live by weaseling, smokescreen, evasion, tend to have just a few tricks up their sleeves. [16:30]
asciilifeform not necessarily on account of being stupid. a flunkie, lying from a position of desperation (our friend) - is overcome by anxiety, which inhibits creativity. on the other hand, an official liar, lying from a position of brute strength (e.g., keith alexander), is hobbled by complacency. [16:32]
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diametric kakobrekla: no luck, still saying it can't find my fingerprint. [16:34]
kakobrekla fucker. [16:34]
asciilifeform jurov: yes, while somehow (by divine intervention?) remaining 'bitcoin' [16:34]
asciilifeform 'every man, woman, child' in america, africa, mars, alpha centauri - 'deserves' - a 'free' - mercedes, ph.d., three quintillion zimbabwe dollars... [16:36]
asciilifeform this gets old, it does. [16:36]
davout i would've loved seeing him actually elaborate on asciilifeform's questions [16:39]
asciilifeform and i'd love to fly on an f-35 with gigantic, fart-flaming pigs instead of engines. [16:39]
Pierre_Rochard not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? [16:39]
davout shut up [16:39]
assbot AMAZING COMPANY! [16:39]
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Pierre_Rochard clearly there are much more important factors to adoption than the transaction fee [16:40]
asciilifeform Pierre_Rochard: because mr. obama has not handed each of them three quintillion bitcoins yet. [16:40]
punkman need more bitcoin bowl ads! [16:40]
punkman is very important [16:41]
Pierre_Rochard asciilifeform: why did he not announce that last night? why does he hate the middle class so? [16:41]
davout the idea that there exists somewhere a magical bitcoin alternative, suffering from none of its shortcomings, towards which everyone would flow is retarded [16:41]
asciilifeform davout: the idea that there is, was, or can be, an actual substitute (what is the substitute for electrical current ?) - ... [16:41]
Pierre_Rochard davout: I agree, the moat between bitcoin and the “substitutes” is _enormous_ [16:42]
asciilifeform Pierre_Rochard: there are sound mathematical reasons to believe that there cannot be a stable substitute in any meaningful sense. [16:42]
asciilifeform Pierre_Rochard: see mircea_popescu's articles (ask him which, when he reappears) for elaboration. [16:42]
Pierre_Rochard asciilifeform: preaching to the choir, but a “substitute” in the economic term is the opposite of a “complement”, not something you necessarily consider on equal footing [16:43]
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chetty its ok, they can just pass a law to change the maths to what they like [16:44]
asciilifeform Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. [16:44]
asciilifeform but if a skateboard with a missing wheel is a substitute for a 'boeing' - then, sure. [16:44]
chetty (all you have to do to make such a law work is send the gasenwagen for anybody that knows any maths) [16:45]
asciilifeform chetty: ''Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection: 'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is [16:47]
asciilifeform beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?' (1984) [16:47]
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asciilifeform or, alternatively, [16:48]
assbot Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:10; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the story about gorby and andropov? [16:48]
assbot Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.' [16:48]
asciilifeform the funny part is that the sc4mz0rz are stuck keeping two sets of books. [16:48]
asciilifeform and are perpetually tempted to skip the other, honest set, entirely [16:49]
asciilifeform when they do - curtain call. [16:49]
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diametric yay [16:58]
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asciilifeform diametric: your key works now ? [17:01]
diametric yeah [17:01]
asciilifeform neat [17:01]
diametric for some real reason it wasn't importing it for the first time correctly, kakobrekla had to manually import it [17:01]
diametric now i'm good [17:01]
diametric real..i mean weird reason. [17:02]
davout diametric: this new assbot is a total scam [17:02]
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ben_vulpes it's downright suspect that mircea_popescu goes to lunch and gavinandresen shows up [17:04]
davout ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that it took you so long to come to this conclusion [17:04]
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ben_vulpes fu davout [17:04]
ben_vulpes i'm submitting builds to apple [17:04]
ben_vulpes trying desperately to eke out food credits over here [17:05]
ben_vulpes i can't spot *every* scam [17:05]
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BingoBoingo !up STRML1_ [17:05]
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ben_vulpes my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer" [17:08]
ben_vulpes xcode "code signing" is hilariously opaque [17:08]
ben_vulpes contains "fix issue" buttons [17:08]
ben_vulpes who wants to "fix issues" related to keys? [17:08]
ben_vulpes my keys "have issues"? get fucked! [17:08]
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davout ben_vulpes: my worst nightmares are those i'm forced to use xcode [17:10]
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davout *where [17:10]
BingoBoingo [17:11]
assbot ... ( ) [17:11]
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kakobrekla wtf is xcode even [17:11]
ben_vulpes kakobrekla: apples proprietary "integrated development environment" for "objective c" [17:11]
kakobrekla sounds great [17:12]
thestringpuller ben_vulpes: it's not just fo objective c [17:12]
thestringpuller you need xcode to run build essentials on make [17:13]
thestringpuller aka gcc and friends [17:13]
thestringpuller >:P [17:13]
asciilifeform gcc << nope [17:13]
asciilifeform they ditched gcc. [17:13]
davout kakobrekla: the IDE where folders don't actually create folders on disk [17:13]
davout thestringpuller: s/gcc/llvm/ [17:14]
davout it's a fucking symlink [17:14]
thestringpuller davout: i see [17:14]
thestringpuller gcc --version [17:14]
thestringpuller Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/ --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.2.1 [17:14]
thestringpuller Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.56) (based on LLVM 3.5svn) [17:14]
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thestringpuller Target: x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0 [17:14]
thestringpuller Thread model: posix [17:14]
davout "you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd" [17:14]
kakobrekla lol! [17:15]
davout "you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable" [17:15]
thestringpuller personal experience davout ? [17:15]
davout thestringpuller: yeah. needless to say the experience was short. [17:16]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: "would you like a mac or win machine?" "You mean which two bowls of shit would I like to eat?" [17:17]
thestringpuller which of the two* [17:17]
ben_vulpes davout: oh yeah don't use the layout engine [17:18]
kakobrekla you guys dont survive without apple turds? [17:19]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: i think ben_vulpes writes softs for apple's stuff commercially ? [17:19]
kakobrekla well hence the question [17:19]
kakobrekla if he doesnt survive otherwise [17:19]
thestringpuller davout: at what point does this ruby thing start to grow on me? [17:19]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: others write the softs [17:20]
ben_vulpes i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs [17:20]
davout thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-) [17:20]
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ben_vulpes my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer" << asciilifeform [17:20]
davout thestringpuller: what are you using it for? [17:20]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: aha. [17:20]
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davout thestringpuller: ruby can be extremly confusing, especially if you use some weird proprietary dsl someone forces on you [17:21]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night. [17:21]
* kakobrekla has leds, can just leave em running. [17:21]
davout !up STRML [17:22]
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STRML davout: Thanks [17:22]
davout yw [17:22]
thestringpuller davout: i'm using it for web apps at work. not really a web stack developer, but it's not as bad as php but still doesn't taste good. [17:22]
STRML I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs [17:22]
STRML all the confusion and unfamiliarity of a new programming language without any of the benefits [17:22]
thestringpuller it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess? [17:23]
davout STRML: yeah, dsl's can be a massive pain [17:23]
STRML I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way [17:23]
davout thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment [17:23]
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ben_vulpes it's just java [17:23]
STRML python is nice to debug... java too [17:23]
ben_vulpes for people with silly hair [17:23]
davout ben_vulpes: how do you know? [17:24]
STRML even JS isn't so bad to debug. better than php [17:24]
davout STRML: dsl's get much much easier when you're proficient with the language [17:24]
davout thestringpuller: what framework are you using? [17:24]
ben_vulpes davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community") [17:24]
BingoBoingo STRML: [17:24]
assbot freenode: frequently-asked questions ... ( ) [17:25]
davout ben_vulpes: i meant "how do you know about my haricut?" [17:25]
ben_vulpes lol well rubby haircuts are normally done by the hair wearer [17:25]
ben_vulpes "why are your bangs off center" [17:25]
thestringpuller davout: sinatra wasn't bad. now I'm learning rails. [17:25]
davout ben_vulpes: kek [17:26]
davout thestringpuller: i like sinatra, it's real simple, and there's very little magic [17:26]
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davout i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm [17:26]
STRML BingoBoingo: Thanks [17:26]
davout thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine [17:27]
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BingoBoingo For people catching up on mircea_popescu gavin drama [17:31]
assbot And Gavin moves on to the dark side. The Bitcoin project is officially hijacked pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [17:31]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43315 @ 0.00049152 = 21.2902 BTC [+] {2} [17:44]
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BingoBoingo nubbins`: Nice video [17:48]
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nubbins` ty [17:49]
nubbins` not every shill gets a shirt [17:49]
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BingoBoingo lol [17:54]
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BingoBoingo !up grave [18:04]
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thestringpuller davout: do you like the french electronic music scene? [18:09]
thestringpuller aka justice, daft punk, et. al? [18:09]
davout justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining [18:09]
davout also you can't really have the market price according to supply and demand when the supply's pretty much infinite for all practical purposes [18:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81000 @ 0.00050193 = 40.6563 BTC [+] [18:10]
davout thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy [18:10]
davout i liked daft punk's first albums tho [18:10]
davout i'm more of classical music and jazz guy [18:11]
thestringpuller jazz you say? :D [18:11]
thestringpuller I fucking love Jazz. [18:11]
davout last 'electronic' music i got into was birdy nam nam [18:11]
davout what kind of jazz? [18:11]
thestringpuller All kinds everything from Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Coltrane. [18:12]
thestringpuller I love Lee Morgan, such an epic history to him. [18:12]
thestringpuller Mingus is cool as fuck too. [18:12]
thestringpuller how bout you? [18:13]
davout thestringpuller: i'm grabbing you something [18:14]
thestringpuller :D [18:14]
mircea_popescu !up bitcoinmani [18:14]
-assbot- You voiced bitcoinmani for 30 minutes. [18:14]
* assbot gives voice to bitcoinmani [18:14]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu! [18:15]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: you missed all the fun [18:15]
mircea_popescu yes ? [18:15]
mircea_popescu what fun is that ? [18:15]
davout mircea_popescu: lol yes [18:15]
ben_vulpes roasting gavinandresen [18:15]
mircea_popescu haha wait, soi he had a lunch meeting except once i also had one his was cancelled ? [18:16]
ben_vulpes p much [18:16]
mircea_popescu a well. i guess bravery is not a silicon valley virtue. [18:16]
asciilifeform shillicon valley [18:16]
* mircea_popescu goes to check teh logs. [18:17]
davout thestringpuller: [18:17]
assbot ... ( ) [18:17]
davout thestringpuller: sinatra cover by biréli lagrène [18:17]
mircea_popescu mats: dos via cert chain replacement << this http-SECURE thing is getting lulzier and lulzier [18:18]
davout justusranvier: especially considering that block propagation is soon to be O(1) [18:20]
thestringpuller davout: luck be a lady tonight. hehe. [18:20]
thestringpuller !s from:gavinandresen [18:20]
assbot 59 results for 'from:gavinandresen' : [18:20]
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BingoBoingo !s turd* [18:21]
assbot 794 results for 'turd*' : [18:22]
mircea_popescu punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis << yup that's a recurring topic here. [18:22]
thestringpuller i figured it out! gavinandresen and mircea_popescu are the same person! [18:22]
thestringpuller cause they are never in same room at same time [18:22]
thestringpuller conspiracy solved [18:22]
davout genius [18:22]
mircea_popescu < fopr instance. [18:22]
assbot Logged on 21-01-2015 01:56:34; mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands [18:22]
thestringpuller open and shut case johnson, sprinkle some crack on him and lets get out of here [18:22]
jurov they happen to be in two rooms at the same time [18:22]
jurov or mircea is capable of bilocation? [18:22]
asciilifeform he fork()s [18:23]
mircea_popescu slandeur [18:23]
jurov hope he reaps his zombies [18:23]
davout jurov: he keeps bragging about bicopulation [18:23]
mircea_popescu davout bicopulation is what that deer in the middle's doin'. ain't me! [18:24]
jurov ;;ud bicopulation [18:25]
gribble Google found nothing. [18:25]
jurov sorry mircea, davout coined it first [18:25]
BingoBoingo !up devthedev [18:26]
* assbot gives voice to devthedev [18:26]
mircea_popescu so i coin it biggest! [18:26]
BingoBoingo devthedev: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? [18:26]
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mircea_popescu punkman: their demos are stupid though << yeah they had no idea how to sell that thing. [18:28]
mircea_popescu nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock << are the da starving artists going to get a cut of the 14k ? [18:29]
mircea_popescu i see Blazedout419 ain't answering my q from yest ;/ [18:29]
mircea_popescu !up Blazedout419 [18:29]
-assbot- You voiced Blazedout419 for 30 minutes. [18:29]
* assbot gives voice to Blazedout419 [18:29]
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mircea_popescu assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin << that post has a core of point in it. if it weren't wrapped in redditard retardation / karpeles bs, it'd almost be worth making. [18:31]
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kakobrekla myea bitpay would do better if they just deleted their wallet [18:32]
asciilifeform one of the alchemical powers of idiots is the ability to transform theoretically good points into, well, this [18:32]
BingoBoingo !b 3 [18:33]
assbot Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [18:33]
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mircea_popescu nevertheless, VCs have been doing appalingly poorly in bitcoin. [18:33]
mircea_popescu mostly because bitcoin does not reward their "get big fast" pump and dump scam. [18:33]
mircea_popescu maybe it's time they fold and just take their subervient place in the ecosystem ? [18:34]
BingoBoingo Well generally they tend to raise dollars and burn them. Or in BitPay's case start with Bitcoins and then burn those. [18:34]
mircea_popescu there's nothing wrong with humility if pride just means you lose money. [18:34]
asciilifeform VCs have been doing appalingly poorly << this assumes that their objective was to do well in the usual, commercial sense [18:34]
thestringpuller BingoBoingo: well they don't burn btc really... [18:34]
thestringpuller i don't think they are allowed to hold btc as assets, i dunno. [18:35]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform this assumes they are what they claim to be. [18:35]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: something that takes an ever rarer class of chump to believe. [18:35]
BingoBoingo thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC [18:35]
mircea_popescu not a matter of chumpness tho. suppose dude rings your doorbell dressed as a car mechanic. "yes ?" "hello i'm the pizza delivery". "you don't seem to have any pizza ?" "ha-ha! fooled you! i'm only SAYING im pizza delivery" [18:36]
mircea_popescu "well fuck you then ? not like i care eiter way ?" [18:37]
davout thestringpuller: why wouldn't they be? [18:37]
thestringpuller BingoBoingo: yea but from what I can gather (i am no expert), would be written as an expense [18:37]
thestringpuller as all their liabilities are covered as fiat, so I assume assets are handled sameway [18:37]
mircea_popescu davout because idiotic accountantlogic. [18:38]
thestringpuller ^- CFO's fault [18:38]
mircea_popescu right. [18:38]
mircea_popescu assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX << lmao this shit better be parodic. [18:39]
thestringpuller there's a lot wrong there, but my theory is VC's won't let them hold btc like other btc companies [18:39]
davout mircea_popescu thestringpuller the accountant can account for the value paymium's coin in whatever fiat he fancies, he can go fuck himself before we sell it [18:39]
mircea_popescu davout have you spent any time in teh us corporate environment ? [18:39]
thestringpuller lol [18:39]
mircea_popescu because it is a sort of insanity that can not readily be grasped from outside. [18:40]
davout mircea_popescu: ic [18:40]
thestringpuller davout: yea. p. much. Then VC comes in and says, "You may have this much btc on book at anytime" or I guess CFO or whatever. I dunno, I'm not an accountant. [18:41]
thestringpuller smickles where r u [18:41]
davout thestringpuller: i have already heard that from potential investors, these were shown the door [18:42]
thestringpuller ah so theory holds some water. [18:42]
thestringpuller i knew I wasn't cray cray [18:42]
devthedev BingoBoingo: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? << It makes my stomach turn [18:43]
davout thestringpuller: yes it does, i have heard that kind of bullshit first hand [18:43]
BingoBoingo devthedev: Well you spotted it, you can tell the story... [18:43]
mircea_popescu davout there's a large chunk of facetious asshats who hate bitcoin just as much as the next guy whose unearned position it threatens. but they figure they get further with a spoonfull of honey than a barrel of vinegar, and so will make this sort of claim. [18:43]
BingoBoingo What did the leader of America's other Socialist party do? [18:43]
* Adlai had a big tussle with a business associate about his (the other guy's) emphasis on "pitching bitcoin" to investors [18:43]
mircea_popescu that they're "investing", that they wiosh to "drive adoption", that generally they're only trying to help. [18:44]
Adlai whereas my stance was that not pitching bitcoin filters out the people to whom bitcoin needs to be pitched [18:44]
mircea_popescu they're trivially identified in the field by the shockingly unhelpful nature of their helpings, [18:44]
asciilifeform 'investing' << 'embrace, extend, extinguish' [18:44]
mircea_popescu and by the incredible tenacity they put into keeping it that way' [18:44]
mircea_popescu so it's not really a very functional strategy. [18:44]
devthedev John Boehner opened a house session with a prayer to Allah. [18:44]
* assbot removes voice from bitcoinmani [18:45]
mircea_popescu point in case of this matter, once gavin is questioned as to why exactly he wants to do x, and he immediately and seamlessly moves into "oh, so what's the right value, so you want to do X' ??" it is clear that he is not in fact interested in what he claims to discuss [18:45]
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thestringpuller mircea_popescu: this gives me the impression that...maybe this is bitpay's handlers driving this nonsense [18:46]
thestringpuller as you've said before [18:46]
thestringpuller opaque agenda is opaque [18:46]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i for one did not expect this to be so brazenly demonstrated, so quickly, as it was. [18:46]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform subtlety is expensive. political competence especially so. [18:47]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: notice how similar his flavour of muppetronics is to that of mr. spam [18:47]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: i was telling a friend the other night that the CIA/FBI acts as the USG mafia, but won't admit to being the mafia. Whereas KGB/Soviets said, "Yea we're the mob, watcha gonna do about it?" [18:47]
mircea_popescu the theoretical theory was that "Bitcoin is all nerds anyway" and so any old junk should stick., [18:47]
thestringpuller At least the russians were willing to be SOMEWHAT honest. [18:47]
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mircea_popescu chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" <<< "everyone wants to be a developer" happened. and "everyone should get what they want" also happened. [18:49]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: in the mid-20th-c., world split into 'prison' and 'psych ward' camps. 'hard' and 'soft'-power, respectively. [18:50]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: these being the two basic schools of thought on how to run a 20th c. state. [18:50]
Adlai << bitcoin theme song [18:51]
assbot The Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get What You Want [Official] - YouTube ... ( ) [18:51]
mircea_popescu felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin? << you will benefit from reading the logs, also googling " gavin" might help. [18:51]
BingoBoingo !up felipelalli [18:51]
* assbot gives voice to felipelalli [18:51]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform where by 20th c state we mean, one of those insane constructions where everyone is equal. [18:51]
mircea_popescu ie, how to run a socialist state. [18:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: them. [18:51]
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davout asciilifeform: pardon my ignorance, but who is mr spam? [18:52]
mircea_popescu and yes, a socialist state can only be run as a prison or as an insane asylum. because socialism is insanity. [18:52]
Adlai davout: ninjashogun [18:52]
davout !s ninjashogun [18:52]
assbot 1761 results for 'ninjashogun' : [18:52]
davout wow [18:52]
asciilifeform davout: i call him 'mr. spam' because he changed alias with some regularity. and promised to return one day under a yet-new one. [18:52]
Adlai spam indeed [18:52]
davout that's a high amount of ninjashogun [18:52]
davout asciilifeform: ic, ty [18:52]
mircea_popescu jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it << this is an universal experience. [18:53]
asciilifeform davout: he's become a kind of proverbial example here, of certain kinds of behaviour [18:53]
BingoBoingo [18:53]
assbot Oracle Critical Patch Update - January 2015 ... ( ) [18:53]
mircea_popescu i have what the dorks refer to "Fat pipes" on a number of nodes and they still get saturated on occasion. [18:53]
BingoBoingo !up weex_ [18:53]
Adlai my main problem with "mr spam" was the high stock he placed in ideas [18:53]
* assbot gives voice to weex_ [18:53]
Adlai ideas are worthless, execution is what matters [18:53]
mircea_popescu Adlai some ideas are more worthless than others. [18:54]
kakobrekla shut up my idea does not require execution [18:54]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: packet shaping is a glorious thing. [18:54]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: one of the reasons i took the sweat to set up a civilized routing stack at home [18:54]
Adlai yes, but keeping an idea secret doesn't prevent somebody else from executing it better than you, while you sit around trying to get people to invest in something you haven't explained to them [18:54]
BingoBoingo alf handcarves exquisite reliefs as he shapes traffic [18:54]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it just has to do with, if a bunch of nodes wake up and find you... [18:54]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: find you and what? they get to eat out of a fixed trough, no faster than they are fed. [18:56]
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Adlai mircea_popescu: eta on D.CTIP? [18:56]
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Adlai they require you to price withdrawals in dollars [18:56]
mircea_popescu which is d.ctip ? [18:56]
Adlai this is retardation to a new level [18:56]
Adlai changetip [18:56]
mircea_popescu ... [18:56]
mircea_popescu how is that worth anything ? [18:56]
Adlai i have no clue [18:56]
mircea_popescu so then eta is clue / 0 [18:57]
Adlai but when you withdraw bitcoin, on the bitcoin network, you have to specify the amount in dollars [18:57]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Believe it or not it got a VC round, raised money [18:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75500 @ 0.00050243 = 37.9335 BTC [+] {2} [18:57]
thestringpuller 2 times [18:57]
thestringpuller lol [18:57]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: [18:57]
assbot ChangeTip Raises $3.5 Million Lead by Pantera Capital | ... ( ) [18:57]
thestringpuller first round was 750k [18:57]
asciilifeform [18:58]
assbot About | Pantera Capital - Bitcoin Investment Firm ... ( ) [18:58]
asciilifeform ^ sc4mz0r zoo [18:58]
* mircea_popescu shrugs. [18:58]
kakobrekla ah yes they plunked 10mio to buttstamp. [18:59]
mircea_popescu at this point listing them on mpex should yield what, 25% of equity. because it'd definitely increase their market value by that much. [18:59]
Adlai it's just baffling how people invest in this [18:59]
asciilifeform incidentally, there was a time when usg did the 'strategic vc' thing more or less above-board. see 'in-q-tel.' [18:59]
asciilifeform still a going concern, iirc [18:59]
BingoBoingo Wait, Buttstamp isn't even 3 full changetips? [18:59]
* assbot removes voice from Blazedout419 [19:00]
Adlai a penny pushing social media spamhaus with no business plan is almost half an exchange? [19:01]
asciilifeform 'changetip,' as i understand, answers two usg desires: 1) injection of tard armies into bitcoin, fodder for gavinization 2) the old, tired 'let's put some names/faces/palmprints/arsebook histories on as many btc addrs as we can' [19:01]
mircea_popescu Adlai the exchange has no margin in an indefensible market and makes no money. [19:02]
diametric nubbins`: so i'm being led to believe you can produce wood t-shirts for me now, hand carved no less. [19:02]
mircea_popescu so yes, 0 is ~= half a 0. [19:02]
Adlai lol [19:02]
mircea_popescu diametric witnessed. [19:02]
asciilifeform wooden t-shirts << ru slang, 'wooden mackintosh', coffin [19:02]
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diametric ha really? [19:02]
asciilifeform aha. [19:03]
BingoBoingo !up Lolugal [19:03]
* assbot gives voice to Lolugal [19:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" [19:03]
Lolugal hello [19:03]
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mircea_popescu pseudoarguments of the attorney ilk. [19:03]
BingoBoingo Hello Lolugal [19:03]
* assbot gives voice to Elio19 [19:03]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" << Reasons to never use a public Electrum server for people wondering about "Lite" wallets. [19:04]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it goes very well with the usg approach to target selection. which is the 'texas sharpshooter' algorithm. [19:04]
mircea_popescu reason to not "drive adoption" to idiots / poor people / etc. [19:04]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform myeah. [19:04]
asciilifeform !s cocaine toilet [19:05]
assbot 5 results for 'cocaine toilet' : [19:06]
mircea_popescu thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? << they did all sorts of things for "the community" to be able to use their own stuff, which the community isn't doing because... well i guess more because lazy and stupid, but hey. [19:06]
mircea_popescu 1800 lines day's not even done ;/ [19:07]
mircea_popescu guyse! [19:07]
Adlai you missed gavin! [19:07]
* Adlai did too [19:07]
ben_vulpes thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC << i thought it was a promise to pay in btc, the paper for which ESPN liquidated immediately [19:07]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4260 @ 0.00080694 = 3.4376 BTC [+] {9} [19:07]
mircea_popescu yeah derp claimed he can't come because he's got a lunch engagement, then found out that so do i so he suddenly could. [19:07]
* Adlai is impressed that gavin showed up here, but also a little puzzled - did anybody think anybody else's opinion would change? [19:07]
mircea_popescu not a matter of opinions. [19:07]
ben_vulpes it's allll part of the act. [19:07]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Why do you have to highlight the shortcut that was almost certainly taken [19:08]
ben_vulpes he has to show. has to "try to talk sense into -assets" [19:08]
Adlai my new favorite word, after btcmiami, is "signaling" [19:08]
mircea_popescu guy saw an opportunity to check off thisparticular thing without actually doing it, and took it. [19:08]
BingoBoingo Adlai: What is "signaling" [19:08]
mircea_popescu it speaks volumes as to his own perceived value of his own "opinions" which he doesn;'t actually hold. [19:08]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3590 @ 0.00082 = 2.9438 BTC [+] [19:08]
mircea_popescu however, it only speaks volumes to those capable to listen. [19:08]
Adlai BingoBoingo: [19:08]
assbot Signalling theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( ) [19:08]
mircea_popescu that was a fad 20 years ago too. [19:09]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: see also 'stotting' [19:09]
asciilifeform (from your own article) [19:09]
mircea_popescu yeh [19:09]
Adlai btcmiami was all a huge signal: "look at us, we're so successful, we can sponsor all of this!" [19:09]
Adlai "come make us able to sponsor the next one too!(" [19:09]
asciilifeform jumping up and down, to show that your legs work, is an example of what zoologists called 'honest signal' [19:10]
mircea_popescu Adlai so was that cyprus fiasco. [19:10]
mircea_popescu "we're so smart, we even got the dean of the cyprus uni to come!" [19:10]
mircea_popescu now that guy doesn't know how to erase his name from the mess. [19:10]
mircea_popescu exact same thing, in this exact same chan, three years ago. nefario was all "oh, we're so smart we got stallman to come" [19:10]
mircea_popescu dub actually was there iirc [19:11]
ben_vulpes pronking? [19:11]
ben_vulpes sporking? [19:11]
ben_vulpes dorking? [19:11]
ben_vulpes honking? [19:11]
ben_vulpes i can never remember this word. [19:11]
mircea_popescu ne1 else recall the glbse conference where nefario explained all about how he's immune to stuff two weeks before closing down ? [19:11]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes stotting ? [19:11]
ben_vulpes sotting, yeah. [19:11]
Naphex ben_vulpes: heard you got ignored by gavin for distracting him ;) [19:12]
asciilifeform lol, what did stallman say ? [19:12]
asciilifeform (and was it signed ?) [19:12]
ben_vulpes Naphex: distracting << lol. not pandering, do you mean? [19:12]
ben_vulpes asking questions faster than his tiny brain and crippled fingers can keep up? [19:12]
BingoBoingo The video and Nefario rambling is somewhere [19:12]
Naphex hehe [19:12]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform he was physically there. [19:12]
mircea_popescu lemme find the thing brb [19:13]
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ben_vulpes [19:14]
assbot object-files ... ( ) [19:14]
BingoBoingo Trilema movie night [19:15]
assbot Fear and Loathing in Your Mother pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:15]
Adlai more like "must read" [19:16]
Adlai although i guess that's another one of the lost arts [19:16]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00050299 = 19.7675 BTC [+] {2} [19:17]
mircea_popescu ;;seen nefario [19:18]
gribble nefario was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 years, 17 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: Those assets are not listed or traded anymore [19:18]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6489 @ 0.00050313 = 3.2648 BTC [+] [19:19]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform << there you go, pretty much complete guy's last week. [19:20]
assbot Sep 15 02:16:04 oh man Sep 15 02:16:06 so tired Sep 15 02: - ... ( ) [19:20]
BingoBoingo Ah looking for that video link I ran into this classic on the only Bitcoin adoption that matters [19:21]
assbot Bribes in Bitcoins pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:21]
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mircea_popescu mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". << quite a weak point. [19:21]
mircea_popescu mpex is not regulated by the nyse, or in general by the us. expectations to the contrary will result in bruised expectators. [19:22]
mircea_popescu that'd be yet another difference between me and (bpay / coinbase / derp.* etc) : not only i make money and they make burn rate, but when i speak i speak from atop a position of significant power. they speak out of their ass, pretty much,not having an iota of actual influence either way. [19:24]
mircea_popescu which is fundamentally why they gotta keep quiet, for that matter. [19:24]
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BingoBoingo !up STRML [19:25]
* assbot gives voice to STRML [19:25]
mircea_popescu STRML you're not using your cloak correctly youknow. we can see your ip. [19:25]
ben_vulpes *gasp* [19:26]
ben_vulpes your IP is showing! [19:26]
ben_vulpes SHAME [19:26]
mircea_popescu lol [19:26]
mircea_popescu nipples! [19:26]
ben_vulpes nudity! [19:26]
mod6 *zip* [19:26]
ben_vulpes feel bad about your toolchain [19:26]
ben_vulpes and body, while you're at it [19:26]
mircea_popescu anyway, i figure if someone goes to the trouble of getting a cloak they prolly care about it. [19:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80314 @ 0.00050319 = 40.4132 BTC [+] {2} [19:26]
BingoBoingo [19:27]
assbot #bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [19:27]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Earlier he said his bouncer was getting DoS... [19:27]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo re that post, lemme tell you how flattened i was by davout using "posteriority" :D [19:27]
BingoBoingo And yet Davout survives [19:28]
davout what [19:28]
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mircea_popescu davout apparently i misread ? [19:29]
mircea_popescu le suck. [19:29]
davout posteriority, assness [19:30]
mircea_popescu you know, posterity ? [19:30]
davout yes [19:31]
davout postérieur in french also means butt [19:31]
mircea_popescu yup [19:31]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot << this is true, and has been for a while. pgp keyservers like the weakest link in the assets system currently. [19:32]
mircea_popescu incredible what ends up imported into our house ;/ [19:33]
* assbot removes voice from Lolugal [19:33]
mats guess we'll have to run a keyserver now. [19:34]
mircea_popescu eventually yeah [19:34]
mats themes of #b-a: rebuild EVERYTHING [19:34]
mircea_popescu kinda hoping that the by-default gossipd keystore system may be enough [19:34]
* Kushedout is now known as Kushed [19:34]
BingoBoingo Oh a qntra submission to /. got accepted, but in linksnipped form, Instead of the qntra story they link which isn't even remotely local to the fucking arrest! [19:35]
mircea_popescu for shame. [19:35]
mircea_popescu point it out in comemnts. [19:35]
kakobrekla mats pretty much, and given the number of able people here, it will never get done [19:35]
mircea_popescu a) It's not nice to snip the source link - if you thought the guy;s work is good enough to use, think the guy is good enough to credit ; [19:36]
mircea_popescu b) the spammy link you replaced it with isn't even local. or useful. [19:36]
mircea_popescu statist pesimist!! [19:36]
kakobrekla me? im a realist, thats why im pessimistic. [19:37]
mircea_popescu kinda funny how "statist " is slowly becoming a cry de guerre. [19:38]
mircea_popescu anyway, ftr, there's nothing at all in this gavin thing. so he came in, derped about nothing in particular, found his way out. at least a dozen random noobs/spammers performed just as well. [19:39]
BingoBoingo [19:39]
assbot Silk Road 2.0 Deputy Arrested - Slashdot ... ( ) [19:39]
mircea_popescu !rate felipelalli -1 has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk. [19:39]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [19:39]
mircea_popescu !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.felipelalli.-1:ce71215acbced2ee28e23af75dd7b767e6314f260038f4c916a1aa81cb263c6e [19:39]
assbot Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk. [19:39]
BingoBoingo !v assbot:BingoBoingo.unrate.felipelalli:a27e904686bb93b6243af0b032d1e4e7c383eb1d052a8ad3e800080a8a0085c2 [19:40]
assbot Successfully unrated felipelalli [19:40]
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mircea_popescu uh this log. so yesterday^H^H^H^ earlier today ben_vulpes is all like "god i love you guys". then i get all "wtf is this derp thinking, giving usgavin room to pretend for ?" and next line in log, sure enough... [19:42]
mats brutal [19:42]
mircea_popescu clearly idiots seldom differ. [19:42]
* mircea_popescu waves at Pierre_Rochard [19:44]
* Pierre_Rochard waves back [19:44]
BingoBoingo Oh, and CoinDesk finally got to a story on the arrest, but they instead cover the FBI Press Release. [19:45]
mircea_popescu I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) << this is particularly fucking stupid [19:45]
BingoBoingo "The arrest of Mr. Farrell is proof that federal law enforcement continues its efforts to root out those who subvert the Internet to set up black markets for illegal goods." << STFU [19:45]
mircea_popescu it was discussed earlier with jurov, but of course noobs don't read logs. [19:45]
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Pierre_Rochard mircea_popescu: I was interested in hearing gavin defend tx fee elasticity, not much else [19:47]
Pierre_Rochard mircea_popescu: because I think the tx fee is inelastic to the point that it’s doubtful the limit will ever be raised [19:48]
mircea_popescu this is in fact a very complex issue. [19:48]
mircea_popescu i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it [19:48]
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mircea_popescu (discounting, of course, frustrated nobodies a la adam back, who are so cocksure they imagine they invented clorophorm) [19:49]
asciilifeform i, for one, would rather like to see the machine-gun taken away from the baby, and only then contemplate military strategy [19:49]
Pierre_Rochard mircea_popescu: I agree, the only model is what actually ends up happening. I think the miners will get a taste for that inelasticity and jealously defend it. I think Gavin & co fear that more than anything else [19:49]
mircea_popescu to some degree the demand for gold was elastic, and this is trivially proven by the fact that while industrial revolution europe used gold, china opf the time used silver. [19:49]
mircea_popescu so there DOES exist some elasticity in the monetary good. [19:50]
mircea_popescu now, how exactly it works... fouquet knows. [19:50]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Well, maybe he accidentally invented it cleaning. I mean bleach disinfects and ETOH disinfects. Maybe he really wanted to get his piss dribblings off of the bathroom tile? [19:50]
mircea_popescu surely. [19:50]
Pierre_Rochard gold and silver are much, much closer substitutes than bitcoin and, say, litecoin or coinbase. [19:50]
mircea_popescu Pierre_Rochard you know, the "say the word, nodes ready, miners ready within a recompile" messages i got so far and that keep piling in... [19:51]
mircea_popescu it's not a matter of some distant future. [19:51]
mircea_popescu Pierre_Rochard for each other you mean ? [19:51]
mircea_popescu surely. and for that matter piss-poor models for bitcoin. that example is easily more misleading than useful. [19:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this re: the merge-mining thing ? [19:52]
mircea_popescu but in point of fact the "monetary pholgiston" so to call the idealised thing is very poorly understood. [19:52]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes. [19:52]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1382 @ 0.00084935 = 1.1738 BTC [+] {5} [19:52]
danielpbarron !rate gavinandresen -5 okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go. [19:52]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [19:52]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00085 = 2.125 BTC [+] [19:53]
mircea_popescu lol. "k guise, i guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion about this here wide screen tv i stole from your place" [19:53]
STRML thanks. never had a need for a cloak before but since somebody here ddos'd my bouncer I figure it's a good idea [19:53]
mircea_popescu i think gavin will make a fortune in gangsta rap [19:53]
mircea_popescu STRML it is, but you gotta apply it first. [19:53]
STRML Yeah. Will have to configure on the bouncer. Thanks for the headsup [19:54]
danielpbarron !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.gavinandresen.-5:88e38a0d3bacd012bbf85a347fd6114b79fbbf53301867d2bb5ecfc3aea36d67 [19:55]
assbot Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go. [19:55]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: this gets old, it does. << quite old. [19:56]
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mircea_popescu Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? << because, the argument goes, they're so farsighted into the future, this children of the paycheck loan, these african seasonal hunters, that the POTENTIAL of it costing maybe more tomorrow perhaps is inhibiting them. [19:57]
assbot AMAZING COMPANY! [19:57]
mircea_popescu like you know, if bread in your african village is 5 dollars a loaf, and there's cake at 2 cents, you won't buy any cake. [19:57]
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mircea_popescu becase IT IS POSSIBLE that in YEARS!!!! it may go as high as i dunno, 5cents ? a whole quarter ? [19:57]
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mircea_popescu so you're spending 100 cakes per loaf of bread instead. because this is "economics" as understood by "expert economists" : oleg andreev, gavin assassinsen, that nytimes thoctchke what's his name [19:58]
mircea_popescu paul kruger [19:58]
mircea_popescu and so on. [19:58]
asciilifeform !rate gavinandresen -1 with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.' [20:00]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: [20:00]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. << in economics, substitute is a functional substitute not a logical substitute. in this sense, your feet are a substitute for a train. [20:00]
asciilifeform !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.gavinandresen.-1:4b3f2513a1f08c4238511a84a1561981b97b4070e6ed35638c5ac133dbfeff10 [20:01]
assbot Successfully added a rating of -1 for gavinandresen with note: with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.' [20:01]
mircea_popescu an usg education is an economic substitute of an actual education, and margerine is an economic substitute for butter. [20:01]
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xanthyos is the price of bitcoin moving up today a response to gavin being dissed in assets? [20:02]
asciilifeform and, i suppose, vacuum is a substitute for air. for a spell, anyway. [20:03]
mircea_popescu price answers no one. [20:03]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [20:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you got it. [20:03]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 227.97, vol: 21464.50503247 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 224.003, vol: 16571.37793 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 228.92, vol: 52253.10725355 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 229.5, vol: 17.07242792 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 226.822356, vol: 158884.46680000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 224.485, vol: 47.35145823 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 220.704000383, vol: 131.15571843 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message) [20:03]
* assbot gives voice to Adlai [20:04]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you know that scammer creativity analysis actually sounds very like soviet police doctrine, on meditation. didja get it out of some book ? [20:04]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's straight out of my arse. [20:04]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: spur of the moment. [20:05]
Adlai is the asswot online yet? as in, visible from the www? [20:05]
mircea_popescu i guess we can say you're a russian thinker. [20:05]
* asciilifeform guilty as charged [20:05]
mircea_popescu Adlai there are jsons. i am thinking about putting a job up for site-ification of those outputs. [20:05]
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kakobrekla not only jsons [20:05]
mircea_popescu oh ? [20:05]
kakobrekla !gettrust assbot [20:05]
assbot Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user assbot: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 11 via 6 connections. | | [20:05]
kakobrekla is this not a web page online: [20:06]
assbot ... ( ) [20:06]
davout kakobrekla: scam [20:06]
kakobrekla (and its not json, json is with /json/) [20:06]
mircea_popescu but...trhey are jsons ? [20:06]
Adlai kakobrekla: had you waited a moment, you could've earned a pretty penny! [20:06]
Adlai oh but yes this is jsons [20:06]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: perfectly fine www page. [20:06]
kakobrekla ok [20:06]
mircea_popescu i am not disputing it is a webpage! [20:06]
davout kakobrekla: this looks like a dump of a php array, sort if dictionary, or maybe an array, depending on the amounts of "=" [20:07]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: looks great straight from 'curl'. [20:07]
mircea_popescu that it does. [20:07]
asciilifeform as www pages ought to. [20:07]
mircea_popescu curl, however, does not count as "web" [20:07]
asciilifeform ditto in 'emacs'. [20:07]
* Adlai isn't sure what to make of this, but it's good enough for him [20:07]
asciilifeform sureitdoes. [20:07]
davout it can't be a web page, it has no google analytics [20:07]
mircea_popescu hory shit it's going to be th ecase nobody actually wants a PROPER web page ?! [20:07]
kakobrekla anyway, if you want a neater interface, add /json/ on end of url , decode and voila [20:08]
mircea_popescu where are the retarded bois going to mix cvasi azure with moss green and gold! [20:08]
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davout !up STRML [20:08]
* assbot gives voice to STRML [20:08]
BingoBoingo davout: Qntra doesn't have google anal-y-tics either [20:08]
mircea_popescu STRML now it worked right [20:08]
STRML Great [20:08]
STRML SASL is the key there [20:09]
mircea_popescu one of yes [20:09]
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mats anyone have an idea wut filesystem i should use with a SSD? [20:09]
davout BingoBoingo: i am disappoint [20:10]
mircea_popescu mats whatever your os likes ? [20:10]
asciilifeform mats: depends, do you intend to write to it ? [20:10]
mats i have read that many filesystems have behavior that is unkind to to writes [20:11]
mats yes [20:11]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam << o wow, do we get the sad, blood splattered, tear imbibed story of it ? [20:11]
asciilifeform mats: often ? [20:11]
BingoBoingo davout: We do quantcast instead so everyone can see our anals [20:11]
assbot Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast [20:11]
mats nah, just a dev machine [20:11]
BingoBoingo mats: Anything wrong with UFS? [20:11]
mircea_popescu it's not likely to make a difference mats. hdds are hceap enough. [20:12]
asciilifeform mats: each block (extant eeproms often have block sizes of 4k) can be erased/written 10-100,000 times. [20:12]
asciilifeform mats: the newer/denser the eeprom, the fewer. [20:12]
mats mmkay. idk anything about filesystems besides what i read in "Practical Filesystem Design" [20:12]
BingoBoingo lulz [20:13]
assbot Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer. [20:13]
davout BingoBoingo: is that a different flavour of the same thing or is that fundamentally different? [20:13]
asciilifeform mats: there is generally a 'write-levelling' microcontroller in there, that tries to 'spread the pain' [20:13]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo that's pretty decent proof. [20:13]
asciilifeform mats: it generally is not aware of filesystem, but only of zero/nonzero blocks. [20:13]
BingoBoingo davout: This one differs in quantcast showing EVERYONE the visitors who happen to load quantcast junk while visiting your page [20:14]
mircea_popescu ahahaha wait, wait. so gavin actually sprouted the ninjashogun line re b-a "conversation quality" ?! [20:14]
mircea_popescu gawds have mercy. [20:14]
mircea_popescu why must everything be so funny ? [20:14]
asciilifeform mats: the only reliable heuristic i know of is that a large proportion of null blocks will prolong, somewhat, the life of the device [20:14]
STRML generally you don't have to worry about running out of writes on most modern SSDs [20:14]
asciilifeform STRML: horseshit [20:14]
STRML so long are you're not running TLC NAND you're fine for a good long time, and even if you are, a pretty reasonable amount of time under most loads [20:15]
STRML not horseshit, for typical consumer use it's fine. For long-term data storage or server use, it's not [20:15]
STRML which is why they sell server SSDs for a higher price. [20:15]
mats asciilifeform: right. people more technically proficient than i have suggested 'btrfs' instead of ext4, but i suppose SSDs will drop in price quickly enough for me to not care [20:15]
undata "This drive rated to over 10000 Facebook page loads!" [20:15]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform [20:16]
assbot The Bottle Deposit - YouTube ... ( ) [20:16]
kakobrekla cosumer grade ssd. .. the controller will die first. [20:16]
* Adlai has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [20:16]
STRML Best way to prolong SSD life is to keep a decent amount of free space on it so TRIM can work its magic [20:17]
STRML also helps if can afford to turn off swap, and turn off hibernate. [20:17]
BingoBoingo mats: From what I've read on btrfs it seems to be mostly a multi drive arrangement beast that apes at being ZFS while failing on more edge cases [20:18]
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mircea_popescu no, srsly, kakobrekla has it. i've seen more controller failures than anything. actually out of cycles deaths are so rare i don't recall one. [20:18]
mircea_popescu shitty turdware in the chip more likely to be the culprit in any case. [20:18]
mats ic [20:19]
* mats dials up swap to 8gb [20:20]
mircea_popescu and by the time it's out of cycles, that drive has seen petabytes worth of traffic. the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over [20:20]
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mircea_popescu ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons << lol this sounds like early chinese factory automation [20:24]
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mircea_popescu davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS << honestly i had no idea it's a haircut. i had imagined it's simply whatever's left once the neighbours are done cutting their hedges. [20:30]
davout har [20:31]
mircea_popescu :p [20:32]
mircea_popescu davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining << quite [20:33]
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mircea_popescu and that doesn't actually even begin to address the (unrelated) problem with "infinite blocks", which is market destruction out and out. [20:33]
mircea_popescu somehow the idea that you can get "just as good food and service" no matter how cheap a restaurant meal gets, like say a cent, or 1/1000th of a cent, is directly stupid to people. [20:34]
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mircea_popescu but the notion that mining will still work no matter how badly the incentive structure gets ruined, because somehow mining is a god given gift / universal service obligation of nature to man doesn't. [20:35]
davout yes [20:35]
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asciilifeform the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over << lol, wai, wat ??? [20:36]
asciilifeform if it all comes from the net - sure [20:36]
mircea_popescu guess what : mining is a marginal business as it is, and exactly the problems that ruined the western textile industry in your parent's lifetime can and will, if given a chance, ruin bitconi., [20:36]
davout i think the idea of a one time bump of the block-size limit is actually much less braindamaged than the perpetual increase approach or infinite size that are pure folly [20:36]
asciilifeform if you're folding proteins - not so much [20:36]
mircea_popescu in point of fact, the industrial revolution was started by, and driven by, the textile industry. [20:36]
mircea_popescu anyone that's not read buffett's post mortem on that venture, once "block size was removed", really has no business participating in this conversation. [20:36]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform true true. [20:37]
jurov mats and avoid trim mount option, run fstrim every day or so instead [20:37]
mircea_popescu davout it's really a very complex problem, "what to do". [20:37]
mats jurov: ok thanks, will look into it [20:38]
mircea_popescu obviously, a scenario where block congestion is a real problem may be constructed. it may even, in principle happen. [20:38]
davout mircea_popescu: when in doubt, make a ruby framework [20:38]
* assbot removes voice from STRML [20:38]
mircea_popescu but in this sense, a scenario where gavin has gay sex with midgets can also be constructed. so let's put him in prison for it, [20:39]
mircea_popescu because maybe it's against the law. [20:39]
mircea_popescu davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy << i knew there was a reason i liked you! [20:40]
mats anyone has warez of letters to shareholders 65-77? [20:41]
mircea_popescu there was that site had the lot of em [20:43]
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mircea_popescu mats oh i see what you mean o.O [20:47]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00049947 = 14.0851 BTC [-] [20:49]
mircea_popescu << this is like the lulziest shit ever [20:49]
assbot 4 Ways to Contact Warren Buffett - wikiHow ... ( ) [20:50]
mircea_popescu "how to survive as a moron : wikihow!" [20:50]
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mircea_popescu " My point is the point of Bitcoin is I can make a transaction to anybody in the world" << uhh.... if this is the point of bitcoin then bitcoin has at all points been so far offpoint it's a wonder it's still here. [20:53]
mircea_popescu this is r/buttcoin/ level understanding of bitcoin, for srs. [20:53]
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jurov << related. also highlighted on r/buttcoin [20:55]
assbot I live in Russia & my family is in U.S. here's our experience using Bitcoin for remittance. : Bitcoin ... ( ) [20:55]
jurov i start grasping asciilifeform's problems with btc, too [20:57]
mircea_popescu jurov for what it's worth, here's my experience with bitcoin remittances : i sent btc to otc correspondents, ordered wires sent out to the hk account of my local agent, who has paid me dollars, in cash, in argentina. the entire process took less than what it takes to get a letter of credit, and significantly less than what international trade normally settles in. [20:57]
mircea_popescu i could, if i were so inclined, finance a nuclear programme or pay for some murders in this manner. [20:58]
mircea_popescu and exactly nobody would ever know, exactly how the foregoing episode is known specifically and exclusively because i chose to share it. [20:58]
jurov i gather if alf received such wires, they'd ship him straight to azkaban [20:58]
mircea_popescu so, spare me the reddit nonsense. bitcoin, money, and good stuff aren't for poor people. [20:58]
asciilifeform jurov: to be fair, the 'problems' i have all stem from the fact of being paid, and having expenses in, fiat. [20:58]
asciilifeform jurov: and not merely any fiat, but electronic, 'banked' bezzlars. [20:59]
asciilifeform jurov: nothing keeps me from receiving or sending wires, but anything that goes in - is insta-taxable [21:00]
mircea_popescu that said, remittances in the us are a total nightmare, because a) the us is principally insane and b) the entrenched interests of current processors work against the customers. [21:00]
asciilifeform jurov: and, if above a certain amount (in or out) 'nice folks' will arrive with pointed questions. [21:00]
mircea_popescu so for people needing a hundred bucks moved, it's hell on earth. [21:00]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: pay for your drugs with cash :P [21:01]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: cash found where? [21:01]
mircea_popescu What are more safe alternatives in U.S. to fix our problem? (We can't afford losing our last $50) << this. [21:01]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: may as well become counterfeiter if doing dope ? [21:01]
thestringpuller slowly take out x cash of bank every week [21:01]
thestringpuller until you have stack of benji's [21:01]
mircea_popescu people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS trying to maintain trading networks that span continents. [21:01]
mircea_popescu they just don't. [21:01]
mircea_popescu wtf is this, derpy guy going to hansa agent in riga cca 1315, "hello this is my very valuable small river rock, how can i send it to london ???" [21:02]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: you remind me of a legend, possibly soviet, regarding a fellow who took a part home from the factory every day for half a century, built airplane. [21:03]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is a johny cash song [21:03]
mircea_popescu [21:03]
assbot johnny cash-one piece at a time - YouTube ... ( ) [21:03]
asciilifeform lol! [21:04]
mod6 great song [21:06]
mircea_popescu mhm [21:06]
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asciilifeform people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS... << anyone have an idea of what hawaladars do re: minimal volumes ? [21:09]
asciilifeform i bet they happily move the 50. [21:09]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes. they made women and children dependent on a man. [21:09]
asciilifeform wai, wat, hawaladars ? [21:09]
mircea_popescu ie, "offchain txn/poorcoin" [21:09]
asciilifeform aha [21:09]
asciilifeform i was specifically curious re: what a hawaladar in, e.g., usa, or eu, would charge to move 50 usd. [21:10]
asciilifeform as a kind of baseline. [21:10]
mircea_popescu he won't charge anything. how did the quote go, [21:11]
mircea_popescu "Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day." [21:11]
mircea_popescu there. that's the charge on 50 bux. [21:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41247 @ 0.00049243 = 20.3113 BTC [-] [21:11]
asciilifeform aha [21:11]
asciilifeform 'gifteconomy' [21:11]
mircea_popescu people who imagine endlessness is a natural phenomena need to spend less time cooped up in their rooms, dreaming up shit. [21:12]
asciilifeform to folks unacquainted with basic physics, mechanization gives a convincing illusion of 'phree stuff 4ever' [21:12]
mircea_popescu right. [21:12]
asciilifeform because all you need is, would appear to be, energy, and everybody knows that it comes from the mains socket. [21:13]
asciilifeform because god willed it. [21:13]
mircea_popescu and cryptographic security oozes out of the ether and miners are just this abstraction getting in the way of the ooze. [21:13]
mircea_popescu it will fill any shape and any volume we draw for it. because it must. because... god willed it! [21:14]
asciilifeform more generally, when confronted with the mechanical 'guts' of something, this type of person will answer 'get this away from me, it is unclean' [21:14]
mircea_popescu "i have never seen it do anything else before" and "who could have predicted" [21:14]
mircea_popescu apprentice fucking magicians. [21:14]
mircea_popescu where's that great disney cartoon of gavin & co [21:15]
asciilifeform 'sorcerer's apprentice' ? [21:15]
mircea_popescu [21:15]
assbot YouTube Walt Disney Fantasia Mickey The Sorcerer's Apprentice - YouTube ... ( ) [21:15]
mircea_popescu there. yep. [21:15]
mircea_popescu only thing missing being, mickey doesn't put on the sorcerer's hat to go to some conference [21:15]
asciilifeform !s the lifeboat mutiny [21:16]
assbot 0 results for 'the lifeboat mutiny' : [21:16]
asciilifeform << ancient radio play based on the tale (which i cannot at present find) [21:19]
assbot GENERIC RADIO WORKSHOP OTR SCRIPT: X Minus One ... ( ) [21:19]
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BingoBoingo to folks unacquainted with basic physics, mechanization gives a convincing illusion of 'phree stuff 4ever' << Until you have to get Santino ready for an open casket funeral after catching every bullet at the tollboth. [21:22]
asciilifeform falling is flying until splat, yes, elementarily. [21:23]
BingoBoingo And one rarely has much choice in the splat [21:23]
asciilifeform choice, if any, was when jumping. [21:24]
mats re: previous SSD discussion (and many others), i don't mean to offend if i didn't specifically respond to you. i just had nothing good to say, but rest assured you have not been ignored [21:24]
thestringpuller i want moar ssds [21:24]
thestringpuller Put all the games on SSDs. no load time. heaven. [21:24]
asciilifeform mats: basic takehome lesson re: ssd is that virtually everything coming out the vendors' mouths is a lie [21:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21850 @ 0.00049243 = 10.7596 BTC [-] [21:24]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Well on the way down they might try to contort themself to leave a particular shape of splat. [21:24]
mircea_popescu mats i dunno but i think silence is no way to offend [21:25]
asciilifeform mats: if application is safety-critical, buy a series of samples and test to destruction. [21:25]
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BingoBoingo !up OmegaOne [21:25]
* assbot gives voice to OmegaOne [21:25]
OmegaOne hi [21:25]
mats is not. tryna bring some life to an old piece of shit [21:25]
asciilifeform mats: then happily buy. back up periodically to actual disk. [21:26]
OmegaOne hi [21:26]
mircea_popescu once's enough OmegaOne. what brings you here ? [21:26]
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mats mircea_popescu: ensuring others have room to save face is one of my varied sins [21:27]
OmegaOne How can i get rich off of bitcoin? [21:27]
mircea_popescu easiest way to make a small fortune in bitcoin [21:27]
mircea_popescu is to start with a large one. [21:27]
OmegaOne how much is $1000 worth in bitcoin land [21:27]
mats ;;calc 1000/[market --last] [21:28]
gribble Error: The "Market" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "--last" in it. Try "list Market" to see the commands in the "Market" plugin. [21:28]
mats ;;calc 1000/[ticker --last] [21:28]
gribble 4.39290107187 [21:28]
BingoBoingo ;;calc 1000/5000 [21:28]
gribble 0.2 [21:28]
BingoBoingo OmegaOne: roughly a fifth of a bitcoin at my current sell price [21:28]
asciilifeform meowmix is back ?! [21:29]
OmegaOne !s meowmix [21:29]
assbot 22 results for 'meowmix' : [21:29]
OmegaOne hi [21:30]
mats OmegaOne: read logs (see topic) and get a cloak [21:30]
asciilifeform !down OmegaOne [21:30]
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BingoBoingo [21:32]
assbot ralphington comments on Coinbase Just Made Tax Accounting Unnecessary! ... ( ) [21:32]
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BingoBoingo [21:42]
assbot I grew a neckbeard reading this "Bitcoin Declaration of Sovereignity" (note: Link doesn't go to the actual Bitcoin Foundation) : Buttcoin ... ( ) [21:42]
BingoBoingo !up pete_dushenski [21:42]
* assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski [21:42]
pete_dushenski cheers! [21:42]
pete_dushenski since scoopbot even likes davout more than me: [21:43]
assbot The problem of digital identity, or how to circumvent 2FA and e-mail authorisation | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( ) [21:43]
pete_dushenski yet another chapter in the "who could've predicted" chronicle [21:44]
pete_dushenski bc.i will just change your e-mail if you ask nicely [21:44]
mircea_popescu wut /1 [21:45]
mircea_popescu lol you just social engineered ? [21:45]
pete_dushenski fuck, not even intentionally [21:46]
pete_dushenski but ya [21:46]
mircea_popescu well... best business practices security an' errything. [21:46]
pete_dushenski they actually just added this e-mail auth thing outta nowhere [21:46]
mircea_popescu at least you don't log in by filming your face [21:46]
pete_dushenski and it turns out that it created a loophole the size of texas [21:46]
pete_dushenski thumbprint! [21:47]
BingoBoingo "Wallet Inspektor" [21:47]
assbot What is BitcoinOS? | BitcoinOS ... ( ) [21:47]
pete_dushenski if an e-mail and pwd were phishing or keylogged, the attacker just has to submit a form, wait two weeks, and voila! [21:48]
asciilifeform yet another 'os' [21:48]
asciilifeform i find these especially infuriating. [21:48]
pete_dushenski s/phishing/phised [21:48]
pete_dushenski phished* good grief [21:49]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: especially when there is no *BSD/kLinux to counter all of these Distro/k*BSD [21:49]
kakobrekla speaking of their page is showing 'cloudflare error 522' for more than an hour to me [21:50]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i don't care what it was made of, if you did not write an os, you did not write an os. [21:51]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: why this peculiar dick-pulling, why pretend. [21:51]
undata asciilifeform: words, you can just tweet them [21:51]
undata then they get retweeted you see, and are true [21:52]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Sure. I'm just saying why don't they pretend better. Instead of throwing on fake spoilers and calling a car customer, this is the "I put a sticker on it" sort of effort. [21:52]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: and 'write an os', per the barest technical definition, is not high science; it's a standard 'boy scout badge' in school. [21:52]
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BingoBoingo asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: and 'write an os', per the barest technical definition, is not high science; it's a standard 'boy scout badge' in school. << You have an absurdly gross overestimation of the standards for Boyscout badges. [21:53]
undata asciilifeform: web devs have the idea that making something == cobbling together open source with tape, the less tape the better, and voila, app [21:53]
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asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i'm speaking as someone who went in for a 'computer science' diploma at an entirely unremarkable american uni. [21:53]
BingoBoingo << I am speaking as person who achieved computers merit badge [21:54]
assbot Computers - MeritBadgeDotOrg ... ( ) [21:54]
asciilifeform wasn't thinking of literal boyscouts, no (i know precious little about them) [21:54]
BingoBoingo requirements now actually seem harder now than when I achieved it. [21:54]
undata the whole culture is full of fakers; why the surprise at this category of them? [21:56]
BingoBoingo Find out about three career opportunities in the computer industry. Pick one and find out the education, training, and experience required for this profession. Discuss this with your counselor, and explain why this profession might interest you. Report what you learn to your counselor. << Doing this one now I'd pick curmudeon as a profession, and ask why writing OS is not a requirement. [21:57]
pete_dushenski kakobrekla "schedule maintenance" [21:57]
undata this social media thing I think has created the notion that identity is a matter of self-definition [21:57]
undata rather than reputation [21:57]
thestringpuller o look a pete_dushenski [21:57]
undata leading to the mind-rot of multitudes [21:57]
pete_dushenski heya stringy [21:58]
pete_dushenski undata it seems to me that the popularity of sm is an effect rather than a cause [21:59]
undata pete_dushenski: self-reinforcing though [21:59]
undata there's a reward associated with the behavior [21:59]
undata retweets, w/e [21:59]
pete_dushenski the mind-rot has been baking in for a couple of decades [21:59]
undata I agree [21:59]
pete_dushenski that's just the cleaving of importance from "importance" [21:59]
pete_dushenski like russia from the usa [22:00]
pete_dushenski russia turns down would-be bond-buyers in droves [22:00]
pete_dushenski us media reports that "bond sale fails" [22:00]
undata there's something there but I'm not cutting to the root of it [22:02]
undata it seems alien to me that words mean precisely dick in the present [22:02]
pete_dushenski think of it as word inflation [22:03]
pete_dushenski and it's every bit as toxic as fiat inflation [22:03]
pete_dushenski creates all kinds of puffed up balloons [22:03]
undata right, the erosion of measures of value could very well fuck thinking itself which leads to the abovementioned [22:03]
pete_dushenski quite so. [22:04]
pete_dushenski when there are no barriers to entry, people get really rather confused [22:04]
pete_dushenski in response, they cling to whatever presents itself, quite undiscriminatingly [22:05]
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pete_dushenski so it's a markov chain going from shiny toy to shiny app to shiny turd [22:05]
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pete_dushenski as to "words meaning zero" it's more that we're privy, if not downright inundated, with words from people who don't know how to use them [22:07]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Boy Scout badges in a lot of ways represent American failducation, shit offered as sausage because cylindrical phenomenon. [22:07]
pete_dushenski our wots can be so much larger than we can biologically manage that the signal is drowned out by the noise [22:08]
pete_dushenski try spending your days on newspaper websites reading about "terrorism" and "celerities" and see if your noodle doesn't turn to mush [22:08]
pete_dushenski selective filtering is completely mandatory for a functioning brain, if not in fact the best definition thereof [22:09]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform [..] << You have an absurdly gross overestimation of the standards for Boyscout badges << i dunno dude, i never got the "all girlscout nookies" one. [22:09]
BingoBoingo try spending your days on newspaper websites reading about "terrorism" and "celerities" and see if your noodle doesn't turn to mush << Helps if you pickle it with ETOH aforehand for preservation. [22:09]
mircea_popescu some are fucking hard. [22:09]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: see song, 'be prepared', tom lehrer [22:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it contains literally 90% of what i know re: boyscouts. [22:10]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: That's on the unpublished chart. [22:10]
asciilifeform [22:10]
assbot Tom Lehrer- Be Prepared - YouTube ... ( ) [22:10]
pete_dushenski << 1 point for correctly identifying the laptop on the left [22:11]
assbot The difference that 25 years makes. [22:11]
mircea_popescu this social media thing I think has created the notion that identity is a matter of self-definition << has little to do with social media tho. it's more an outgrowth of the "civil rights" movement. [22:12]
* assbot removes voice from pete_dushenski [22:13]
BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: [22:13]
assbot The difference that 25 years makes. [22:13]
undata mircea_popescu: I read your piece recently on how enfranchising all makes for significantly less representation in the society [22:14]
undata enlightening [22:14]
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mircea_popescu that's the problem, what appears on the surface as doing one thing ends up doing the exact opposite when very complex systems are involved. [22:15]
mircea_popescu this is known to medical practitioners since forever. russia's newbie statesmen (commies ) stepped in it with extreme regularity [22:15]
mats [22:15]
assbot Nicolas Cage to Star in Osama Bin Laden Satire From 'Borat' Director (Exclusive) - The Hollywood Reporter ... ( ) [22:15]
mircea_popescu to the point it was pretty much comedic. they didn't TRY to do it. but they did it all the damned time [22:15]
BingoBoingo Ah /. prolly link-snipped because on chumpatron take [22:16]
assbot Jim Blasko Explains 'Unbreakable Coin' (Video 2 of 2) - Slashdot ... ( ) [22:16]
BingoBoingo ^ second day, second turd [22:16]
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pete_dushenski undata mircea_popescu the term for this being, of course, iatrogenics [22:17]
pete_dushenski "harm caused by the healer" [22:17]
pete_dushenski see: [22:17]
assbot The search for decency and the opposite of iatrogenics | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( ) [22:17]
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mircea_popescu pete_dushenski yeah. taleb also very big on it [22:19]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: That's a pretty good summary of it. Gotta hide the smokes. [22:24]
BingoBoingo So... Bunch of girlies are going to destroy their knees this summer [22:27]
assbot Women's World Cup to go forward on artificial turf - LA Times ... ( ) [22:27]
mircea_popescu !up CoraCrisT [22:34]
-assbot- You voiced CoraCrisT for 30 minutes. [22:34]
* assbot gives voice to CoraCrisT [22:34]
CoraCrisT hey guys! [22:34]
kakobrekla hello [22:35]
mircea_popescu sup. [22:36]
CoraCrisT enjoying myself with gavin`s wannabee reformed theology [22:37]
CoraCrisT readin` the logs.. [22:37]
mircea_popescu lol that's one way to put it [22:37]
CoraCrisT i`m still amazed [22:37]
CoraCrisT too bad he left so early.. [22:38]
CoraCrisT so Kim Kardashian is publishing her new book/photo album called Selfie or Selfish... Amazon is selling a book with Satoshi`s posts from bitcointalk and gavin wants to hard fork bitcoin... [22:42]
CoraCrisT true history.. [22:42]
BingoBoingo !b 2 [22:43]
assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [22:43]
mircea_popescu kim's book i'd buy. [22:45]
mircea_popescu madonna's book/photo album was pretty hot [22:45]
mircea_popescu (the one where she fucks naomi campbell) [22:45]
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* CoraCrisT googeling now [22:47]
undata CoraCrisT: as if we all didnt just [22:50]
mircea_popescu what, srsly ? that's one of pop culture's most notable artefacts! [22:51]
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kakobrekla hey, you are the pop culture expert! [22:53]
BingoBoingo God Damn. It won't be until round 4 of the Australian open that a Serena Williams / Alize Cornet rematch is possible. [22:53]
BingoBoingo Fuck, its worse, round 5, I skipped a round [22:54]
mircea_popescu that cornet chick's pretty good huh. [22:54]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla so i am. professional curse. [22:54]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Good, but Exceptionally good against Serena specifically. [22:54]
BingoBoingo Usually when she beats serena she gets promptly knocked out of whatever tournament a round or two later. [22:55]
BingoBoingo But first she has to make it all of the way to round 5. [22:55]
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mircea_popescu hm [22:57]
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* BingoBoingo doesn't always invest on Forum/Reddit logic, but when I do, I do it from an informed position [22:58]
mircea_popescu and with a laser. [22:59]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00085967 = 4.2984 BTC [-] {9} [22:59]
BingoBoingo These occasions only happen a few times a year. Why not take whatever scam odds a shady book offers to turn no more than 0.2 BTC into 1 BTC. [22:59]
mircea_popescu what were the odds ? [23:00]
BingoBoingo It depends, but usually I win when odds in favor of Serena drop to under multiplying my stake by ten as the payout. [23:00]
BingoBoingo So far it has been incredibly +Ev for me personally, but dunno how long it will last as serena continues getting old. [23:01]
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mircea_popescu !up bertani_ [23:04]
-assbot- You voiced bertani_ for 30 minutes. [23:05]
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BingoBoingo O.o nubbins` why aren't you giving us the blow by blow on this drama? [23:11]
assbot Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( ) [23:11]
* Pasha is now known as Cory [23:12]
asciilifeform satoshi book << i have it. [23:17]
asciilifeform there is nothing evil in it, and the first page is 'this is public domain material, copy freely' even. [23:17]
asciilifeform convenient dead tree collection of the material. [23:18]
asciilifeform the author mostly resisted the temptation to add crud [23:18]
pete_dushenski i have it too [23:18]
pete_dushenski foreword by jeff berwick if memory serves [23:18]
ben_vulpes oh jesus i return [23:18]
pete_dushenski he of "i'm not going to prison" fame [23:18]
ben_vulpes undata recommended me an emacs config change that took *hours* to unsnarl [23:19]
ben_vulpes granted, 'twas my own fault for not unsnarling it more quickly. [23:19]
ben_vulpes ?rate undata -2 fucked my .emacs [23:19]
undata bwah hah ha [23:19]
undata w/e you gave into your own tooling lust [23:19]
undata I was merely a mirror! [23:19]
ben_vulpes dood there must only be one canonical window manager [23:19]
ben_vulpes and emacs is not it [23:19]
ben_vulpes tooling lust << no it's true [23:20]
ben_vulpes [] i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it << severely lacking in the whole conversation [23:20]
asciilifeform pete_dushenski: i had no idea who. just read as 'some guy'. (skipped.) [23:21]
pete_dushenski wise [23:21]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform had a canadian "investment forum" thing [23:23]
BingoBoingo << WFT'ening [23:23]
assbot Just a moment... ... ( ) [23:23]
assbot dpaste: 2Y9D905 ... ( ) [23:23]
mircea_popescu then went nutso with one of the "libertarian island" things which smells a lot like scam. [23:23]
asciilifeform lol! [23:23]
pete_dushenski galt's gulch [23:23]
mircea_popescu [23:24]
assbot So the Dollar Vigilante scam ring is going to jail. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( ) [23:24]
asciilifeform incidentally, this is rather like selling 'superman's cape' sans flight [23:24]
asciilifeform (the 'galt's gulch' in the book - had an invisibility machine.) [23:24]
mircea_popescu myeah. [23:25]
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BingoBoingo !up Pierre_Rochard [23:32]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00083238 = 1.6648 BTC [-] {8} [23:37]
* assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard [23:38]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2619 @ 0.00080581 = 2.1104 BTC [-] {8} [23:38]
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BingoBoingo !up devthedev [23:49]
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