Forum logs for 04 Sep 2018

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=8 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR log summary - 09/01/2018 [04:17]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/06/29/the-moving-process-in-montevideo-continues/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - The Moving Process In Montevideo Continues [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/07/05/settling-into-apartment-life/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Settling Into Apartment Life [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/07/07/a-look-at-fraudball-the-terrible-spectator-sport/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - A Look At Fraudball, The Terrible Spectator Sport [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/07/14/the-joy-of-morcilla-dulce/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - The Joy Of Morcilla Dulce [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/07/28/meet-harry/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Meet Harry [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/07/29/casa-boingo-a-photo-tour/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Casa Boingo - A Photo Tour [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/08/02/selected-costs-associated-with-furnishing-casa-boingo-for-the-curious/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Selected Costs Associated With Furnishing Casa Boingo For The Curious [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/08/10/3-days-of-loaves/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - 3 Days Of Loaves [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/08/27/peso-watch-august-edition/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Peso Watch August Edition [04:18]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/08/29/waking-up-into-spring/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Waking Up Into Spring [04:18]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, trinque in case it helps, the kernel option I need to turn on in order to be able to run iptables on the smg machine is networking support/networking options/network packet filtering framework/core netfilter configuration/netfilter xtables support [10:16]
trinque: sounds right to me there are myriad other kernel options for various rule types for iptables [10:17]
mircea_popescu: this sounds like a terrible way to go about it. what, fiddling with iptables = kernel rebuild ? why even have a scriptable config if this is how it goes, jaysus [10:20]
trinque: I can't anticipate every single use case someone's going to have. [10:29]
trinque: or could otherwise just bundle every single module and driver. [10:29]
mircea_popescu: we're not even discussing you, here. i was talking about iptables. [10:29]
trinque: which isn't how I run my own kernels at all. [10:29]
trinque: ah, yeah, API to hook to some userland filter proggie and be done with it, eh? [10:30]
trinque: but then the Linux kernel even has in-built TLS support these days (at least optional, for now) [10:30]
mircea_popescu: it's my understanding that the point of adding scriptability to a program is exactly that : to permit changes in its functioning ("configuration") without requiring a whole recompile. much like the point of adding a steering wheel in a car is to permit the car to take arbitrary curves, as scripted at time of driving. rather than having to driver (how?) car back to factory get a new one with the differently inclined wheelbase. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: even though a car with fixed wheel inclination would be more robust and cheaper to build. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: so in this sense, if "iptables" as a module requires recompilation in order for the scripting to work, it's exactly like a car which, upon turning the wheel, puts up an order for a new car via the useful app instead of turning the wheels. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: ie, anti-useful. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: now, it boggles my mind that this is how it'd fucking work. is it ?! [10:32]
trinque: more like "if you want to filter by bandwidth throughput instead of source/dest IP, gotta add new module" [10:33]
mircea_popescu: well this promises to be a serio0us problem that can't be winged, but will require some thought in part because i don't directly see the difference and in part because i don't really think a machine without a functioning way to limit access to it is actually seaworthy. [10:34]
mircea_popescu: i mean, it'd be ok for a terminal. but as a server it gotta have something-like-iptables neh ? [10:34]
trinque: there is an extremely broad category of possible iptables/netfilter doodads with which to make a firewall, router, etc. I could certainly see use in defining a subset of what's available as standard. [10:37]
trinque: iirc diana_coman is running an asciilifeform kernel, but I think alf approaches kernels similarly to me: "nothing broke when I turned this off, so off" until that heuristic bumps into something. going to be different bumps in different deployments. [10:39]
diana_coman: it is asciilifeform's kernel indeed iptables or something else to limit access though I think is a must on a server [10:40]
mircea_popescu: trinque kinda what i was thinking here, spend an hour thinking what'd make the cut, put it in, and that's it. [10:40]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman 's thing above serving as a "no less than" seeing how minigame is a major downstream adopter and the usual "more loc ?! fu!" as a "no more than" driver. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: make a cut between and that's it. [10:41]
trinque: worx for me [10:43]
mircea_popescu: but yes, evidently the (undiagnosed are these people morons ?!) problem is that "anything could be a firewall rule", ie, this is a place where the scripting turns upon the whole machine state. which makes me suspoect there's a more fundamental error at work somewhere (possibly the very attempt to build a pantsuit net, allcomers-based, possibly something else), but until we get a fix on that... [10:44]
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-04-sep-2018#2471087 << diana_coman i was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that i built smg box with iptables-able kernel. but was not ? [10:44]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 14:16 diana_coman: asciilifeform, trinque in case it helps, the kernel option I need to turn on in order to be able to run iptables on the smg machine is networking support/networking options/network packet filtering framework/core netfilter configuration/netfilter xtables support [10:44]
asciilifeform: or was simply 1 ~component~ of iptables absent ( there's somewhere like 50+ 'optionals' in the list ) [10:44]
trinque: diana_coman: mind throwing me your kernel .config for comparison with mine? [10:44]
asciilifeform: zcat /proc/conf.gz > foo [10:45]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, original box did not have iptables support, no [10:45]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: aah we're speaking of the april box [10:45]
asciilifeform: yes, iirc it did not, given as it was a physical clone of mine, which at the time also did not. [10:45]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you copy kernel from the 2nd smg box, you get iptables. [10:45]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I have iptables atm the idea was to have it by default on any new config/box/system [10:46]
mircea_popescu: the other idea being that apparently it's not even strictly speaking clear what "have iptables" means. [10:47]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw it comes by default with all asciilifeform-prepared boxen nao, incl. all new rk customer. [10:47]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which modules did you end up putting in ? [10:47]
trinque: aha, "what does firewall mean to /me/ ?" [10:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is entirely so, take a look at the kernel config list sometime, it is a riot of ??? [10:47]
mircea_popescu: yes well. [10:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc i posted the config, lessee, : [10:47]
mircea_popescu: let's import as little turd in sausage as we can. [10:47]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-12#1833855 << [10:48]
a111: Logged on 2018-07-12 15:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform's old kernel consists of hand-selected modules, corresponding to dulap-III irons, config can be seen here, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/conf_current.conf [10:48]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you gotta get better at labeling. "old" here is "not april but thje later one" ? [10:48]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: july 11, 1300 hrs , '18 [10:49]
mircea_popescu: alright. is this your latest, ie, current kernel ? [10:49]
diana_coman: and just so it doesn't get forgotten, any new config should have xhci turned off as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-01#1838824 [10:49]
a111: Logged on 2018-08-01 21:28 diana_coman: after reading around on this mess with the usb speeds, the summary + questions would be: 1. the dwc_otg seems actually specific to raspberry pi so I don't see how it's directly useful atm am I missing something? 2. the manual/runtime pill so far relies on the companion mechanism to force a USB port down from "high speed" to "full speed" so basically from ehci to uhci/ohci wouldn't it make more sense to blacklist ehci, xhci and whatever [10:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for x86 -- yes [10:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for rk , separate, and recently updated ( pending publication ) [10:49]
mircea_popescu: alright. so basically, we have a july latest-kernel from alf at http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/conf_current.conf << diana_coman trinque erryone else interested read and see if it works for you / comment ? [10:50]
trinque: diana_coman: that's going to have speed implications for anyone attaching an external drive, neh? [10:50]
* trinque rereads thread [10:50]
mircea_popescu: yeah we have a FG vs external-ssd issue baking / [10:50]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: note that this kernel is tailored to dulap-style box (i.e. amd, and with that particular raid card) [10:50]
mircea_popescu: ah right, days of general-purpose kernel also pre-2018 item huh. [10:51]
trinque: yep that throws out usb 3.0 [10:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still dunget why it has to be issue, usb hub can be dialed down to desired speed with method described on FG www pg [10:51]
asciilifeform: ( i discovered the method quite early, in the days of mass FG tests, but did not know the sheer number of sad boxen / kernels afflicted, that turn out to need it ) [10:52]
mircea_popescu: alright. it seems the logical cut here is to disentangle trinque from kernel talk. go ye and make cuntoo wtf will we do with the kernels, this is rapidly reverting to 1800s standards of engineering, "die with knowledge" [10:52]
asciilifeform: fwiw kernel is ~entirely separate affair from userland. [10:52]
trinque: except that the product of the build isn't bootable without one, but build takes the kernel config as a parameter, so it can indeed be entirely separate [10:53]
mircea_popescu: yes, but... "here's one for amd with raid so and so and fg no external ssd" "here's one for the vibrating bulled you gotta wear per mp orders" "here's one for..." we'll catch our ears. [10:53]
asciilifeform: trinque: specifically i mean that kernel is built ~for the iron~ rather than 'for the userland' [10:53]
trinque: indeed [10:53]
* trinque bbl [10:53]
asciilifeform: so if you have a working kernel for a particular iron, you can use it with cuntoo, regardless of what shape cuntoo takes. [10:53]
mircea_popescu: ~regardless [10:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'iron babel' of x86 means that there is not and never has been such a thing as 'general purpose kernel'. there exist of course the fraudulent imitations, of shituntu etc. where they roll in 500MB of ??? 'all possible modules' , but it is beneath contempt [10:55]
mircea_popescu: myeah [10:55]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847272 << this is correct, there's a lengthy list of 'optionals' , and not only in iptables, but for just about errything [10:57]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 14:33 trinque: more like "if you want to filter by bandwidth throughput instead of source/dest IP, gotta add new module" [10:57]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847273 << at the time i built the 1st kernel for these particular iron, i was not using (believe or not) iptables, was quite disappointed with the 'whack-a-mole' approach to bandwidth conservation [10:59]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 14:34 mircea_popescu: well this promises to be a serio0us problem that can't be winged, but will require some thought in part because i don't directly see the difference and in part because i don't really think a machine without a functioning way to limit access to it is actually seaworthy. [10:59]
asciilifeform: i ended up going back to it, largely to use the aws-ban script [11:00]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what did you use then? I'm not a huge fan of iptables in any way and this have-to-recompile-kernel doesn't help but I don't know of anything else that is better [11:00]
mircea_popescu: or at least workable. [11:01]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i used nothing at all. given as bandwidth hogs dun seem to ever have any trouble coming up with ~infinite new ip proxies. [11:01]
diana_coman: the fact that some still do doesn't really = they have no trouble [11:02]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: collectively. [11:03]
asciilifeform: at one time asciilifeform burned 20-40min erry day manually banning . then got tired of this and went to properly optimize the phuctor db so that it doesn't give a damn re load, up to line speed. [11:04]
asciilifeform: recently finished, and rolled out. [11:05]
mircea_popescu: ie, "the problem with iptables is that as defined can not exist" ? [11:06]
asciilifeform: i won't go as far as 'iptables is addictively useless' but: nearly [11:06]
asciilifeform: it is a fly swatter. [11:06]
asciilifeform: fly swatter is not a viable method of serious pest control. [11:07]
mircea_popescu: this is such a tempting notion to invest... [11:07]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman can i get you behind this "iptables are for amateurs" line ? [11:07]
asciilifeform: i do know that many people's pest control setups rely on iptables, and so all new pizarro customers will get it by default. but imho it is a bitter pill. [11:08]
diana_coman: I am very, very tempted but precisely for this reason still trying to make sure I'm not just preferring the easy way out here [11:08]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman thinking logically : either this is a problem or it isn't. if it is a problem, then it should be handled upstream not by server. [11:09]
mircea_popescu: i suspect "iptables" is like "php implementation of ftp" : most people don't have their own isp. [11:09]
mircea_popescu: this is a sorry reason to have things. [11:09]
diana_coman: that much I can see, yes [11:09]
mircea_popescu: i misspoke. i meant "this is a sorry reason to write code." [11:09]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: another important fact to remember : ip rules inevitably slow traffic. [11:09]
asciilifeform: there is no way around this. [11:10]
mircea_popescu: code written to circumvent administrative failure is possibily the source of wank. 20yo who "fought idiot vice-principal" with code rathere than club. [11:10]
mircea_popescu: if the wrong "rules" of the administrative office get in the way, the only acceptable solutionb is to fucking burn it down. [11:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the rate this is going, i guess nsa will soon be in the business of producing flood-fighters considering what the "professional" crapola out there costs... [11:12]
mircea_popescu: this can turn out to be quite lucrative. [11:12]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: serious floods are a problem not at the level of our rack, but upstream [11:12]
asciilifeform: ( iirc mircea_popescu knew this long ago ) [11:12]
asciilifeform: and moreover, they are a problem with the basic design of (for the most part) tcp. [11:12]
mircea_popescu: there's nothing saying pizarro isn't building its own dc. [11:12]
diana_coman: if I understand correctly asciilifeform's solution is essentially not as much kill the pest as make the whole thing pest-resilient [11:13]
asciilifeform: hey, not only dc, but asciilifeform actively at work on... own net fabric [11:13]
asciilifeform: but this won't be born tomorrow. [11:13]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: correct. [11:13]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you understand, item by cisco/friends not amounting to a rockchip plant sells to usg.tards for 100k sorta money. [11:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i know this, had the misfortune of buying'em, plugging in, fiddling. [11:14]
mircea_popescu: entirely worthless junk it is, too. [11:14]
asciilifeform: largely yes [11:14]
asciilifeform: ( 'industrial' telco gear is pretty much 'bsd box with array of GB nics soldered in' + some shitware ) [11:14]
mircea_popescu: yup [11:15]
asciilifeform: some of the fancier units have fpga for filtrations [11:15]
asciilifeform: but there is no way around the 'lookup table entries cost time & space' thing [11:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seriously, since we're apparently not selling the rockchip plant to pizarro : how about you build it and make it a "cyberflood master 9000" ? [11:15]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's expand on this. what specific functionality would you want in such a device ? [11:16]
mircea_popescu: plugs directly into datacenter's colocation, filters out "bad" traffic. [11:16]
asciilifeform: possibly i did not clearly explain the problem with iptables then ? [11:17]
mircea_popescu: possibly i didn't make it plain enough that SUCH AN ITEM ALREADY IS PLUGGED IN THERE ? [11:17]
asciilifeform: it's an algorithmic problem ( i.e. fundamental ), rather than implementation. [11:17]
mircea_popescu: just make a better one. [11:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for all i know, they have a microshit antivirus also plugged in. should we then also attempt 'better one' of these as well ? [11:17]
mircea_popescu: since you're not using any hot glue guns, the task is suprisingly easy. [11:17]
asciilifeform: whole approach is braindamaged imho [11:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if "av" sold for six figures. it doesn't. [11:18]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-23#1774656 << thread [11:18]
a111: Logged on 2018-01-23 06:28 mircea_popescu: do you understand the crystal ball problem ? [11:18]
mircea_popescu: this has the essential veblen good blessing, being a hardware box. [11:18]
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847347 -> for amateurs and incompetent dc-s it seems, yes [11:18]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:07 mircea_popescu: diana_coman can i get you behind this "iptables are for amateurs" line ? [11:18]
mircea_popescu: i got news for you, alfie! http://trilema.com/2018/how-things-have-changed/ [11:18]
asciilifeform: the buyer's entire objective is to scratch a usg-kowtow itch by blowing those six figs on 'best practice' witch repellent. [11:18]
mircea_popescu: republic is rapidly becoming chief witch. [11:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so we're talking , approx, 'juniper but w/out the ftmeade magic key' ? [11:19]
mircea_popescu: and without the hotglue gb nics and without the derpy fpga "we dunno how to use things". [11:19]
mircea_popescu: juniper w/o the carload of monkeys. [11:19]
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand somewhere, this needs ic fab. [11:20]
mircea_popescu: (for the newly born : carload of moneys "know tricks". right.) [11:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what for ? [11:20]
asciilifeform: for nic PHY that doesn't answer to washington magicpacket. [11:20]
mircea_popescu: neveryoumind that part. [11:20]
asciilifeform: if you dun have this, you build a juniper whether wanted to or not. [11:20]
mircea_popescu: BUT A BETTER ONE. [11:21]
asciilifeform: better how ?? [11:21]
mircea_popescu: you keep thinking in these absolute terms. sometimes relative terms are important. [11:21]
mircea_popescu: better in that it will expose pantsuit packets to us, for instance. [11:21]
trinque: better in that it liberates their cash into your hand so you can goto 10 [11:21]
asciilifeform: for one thing, if you can't fab ic, you inevitably 'hot glue konsoomer GB nics' [11:21]
mircea_popescu: better in that also. better in the sense that it'll use less wattage to do the same ~nothing. [11:21]
asciilifeform: moar wattage, because will need 1 nic per jack. [11:22]
mircea_popescu: trinque can you believe these people ?! [11:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would you not want to do this ?! it's beyond comprehension. [11:22]
asciilifeform: i'd luvv to do it. but to ~actually~ do it, as opposed to junkyard wars ersatz that will inevitably suck. [11:22]
mircea_popescu: ... [11:23]
mircea_popescu: most battles are won by sucking less! [11:23]
asciilifeform: open one of those junipers, there's a vlsi turd that actually does the routing. [11:23]
asciilifeform: ( at least in the recent ones ) [11:23]
trinque: "can't steal and sell sov tanks because to hell with the communists" to my ears [11:25]
asciilifeform: trinque: am i thick, and mircea_popescu right ? how do i bake a 'sucks less than juniper' while being stuck with off-the-shelf nic ic ? [11:25]
mircea_popescu: more's like "cant steal ~half the gold from this bank until someone comes with a credible plan to also steal the bricks from the walls" [11:25]
trinque: asciilifeform: I think your mind is set on correctness, which blocks a pragmatic "better" which is only defined by delta with competition [11:26]
mircea_popescu: i dunno how he's supposed to be from odessa, don't got not a gypsy bone in his body. [11:26]
* diana_coman can see both positions really [11:27]
asciilifeform: trinque: 'competition' box routes 1G/s from 48 jacks, daisy-chains with 10GB/s snakes, compiles ip filter rules into 1mil+ gate fpga fabric. how do i bake a sucks-less without large fpga ? ( we dun have large fpga, tho we do have working tiny ones ) [11:27]
diana_coman: from a tech point of view the trouble with "better by delta" is that you are then stuck dealing with the remaining shit anyway but sometimes it's still the way to go [11:28]
asciilifeform: now what i ~have~ wanted to bake, for years nao, is a box with ~2~ jacks, that tests rsa sigs on specially-defined packets at line speed, and drops all the ones that dun pass. this is imho the Right Thing, for entirely curing the disease in question. [11:29]
asciilifeform: but this already was formalized by mircea_popescu as gossipd variant. [11:29]
asciilifeform: the 'allow allcomers but magically filter badness' juniper thing, imho is dead end. [11:30]
mircea_popescu: let me make this perfectly actionable for you. [11:30]
* asciilifeform listens [11:30]
mircea_popescu: so, you're paying good money to have BingoBoingo on the ground there what "on the ground means" is that he can go to dc and say "hey guise, will you test this box we make ? no charge". IF they agree, and IF you have made the tmsruniper, and IF indeed they come out of it thinking they're better off with that, THEN you can sell it for credit, and not need to do more wires. yes ? [11:31]
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, BingoBoingo you ARE making cozy with dc tech people rite ? taking them out to smoke & crimping them to pot or w/e it is they do socially there ? [11:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what means 'test' here ? they'll put customer traffic through it instead of juniper ? [11:32]
mircea_popescu: precisely. [11:32]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let's do a 0cost experiment, why dontcha float the idea to the dc people, see reaction. [11:32]
mircea_popescu: dude. you don't have the box. [11:32]
asciilifeform: i admit i dun grasp, why, having already fronted 500k to usg.juniper, they would entertain a 'try my homemade router plz' [11:33]
mircea_popescu: i have not yet encountered a dc which didn't have a waffle list composed mostly of junishits. [11:33]
asciilifeform: what's a waffle list [11:33]
mircea_popescu: waffle list here being "well... do we need it ? maybe we need it ? let's get it ? wait a while ? hmm ?" [11:34]
mircea_popescu: like a social media "wish list", but for people who actually have some money. [11:34]
asciilifeform: a [11:34]
trinque: gotta demo to sell these things, and gotta know what causes them pain to know what to demo [11:35]
asciilifeform: i must repeat, that i'd be lying if i claimed that i knew how to build a box that throws packets at even 1/5th the rate of the cheapest juniper, out of off-the-shelf components. [11:35]
mircea_popescu: often you can sorta guess. [11:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform really ? how come ? [11:35]
asciilifeform: cuz konsoomer off-the-shelf ic dun do it. [11:36]
mircea_popescu: seems to me eminently beatable. [11:36]
trinque: (and is BingoBoingostan buying top shelf?) [11:36]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 100% they also BUY the gear. [11:36]
mircea_popescu: i dunno what the fuck you think juniper is but as a factual matter juniper is the result of exactly this conversation among dumber people ~15 years ago. [11:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ao4dQEtE6oc/VQ6JeUf9pkI/AAAAAAAADVk/hrSWedKzCG0/s1600/blog1_qfx10k_3.jpeg [11:36]
mircea_popescu: and no, they don't own a special-nic-foundry. [11:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't blogspot. [11:37]
asciilifeform: 1s [11:37]
mircea_popescu: a ty [11:37]
mircea_popescu: lobbes archiver got it for me./ [11:37]
asciilifeform: they dun ~own~ fab, of course, just as google doesn't. they contract the fab. [11:37]
asciilifeform: like e.g. hewlett-packard, (the late) sun micro, most folx. [11:38]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so ? i see your junkl and raise you our junk : http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/fg_small.jpg [11:38]
asciilifeform: there are no asics in fg.. [11:38]
asciilifeform: cuz we can't afford to bake'em yet. [11:38]
mircea_popescu: looking at the pics reddit can't tell the difference. [11:38]
mircea_popescu: we have TWO metallic squares and ours have holes in them! [11:38]
asciilifeform: i suspect even reddit can use a clock, tell diff b/w 10G/s router and 1M/s [11:38]
asciilifeform: lol [11:39]
mircea_popescu: so it's your expert oppinion you can't actually make a better one ? [11:39]
asciilifeform: not with the currently available means, no [11:39]
asciilifeform: it'd cost a couplea mil (orcbux) [11:39]
mircea_popescu: wtf does that mean ? [11:39]
mircea_popescu: if i've learned anything about you over the years is that you're absolutely never right as to what anything costs. [11:40]
asciilifeform: would need 1) fab capability 2) substantial time, unless mircea_popescu has a coupla qualified pairs of hands up his sleeve to assist [11:40]
mircea_popescu: why 2 ? [11:40]
asciilifeform: cuz it's a complicated mechanism. [11:40]
mircea_popescu: why ? [11:40]
asciilifeform: thing needs to eat packets, parse fields, sort'em into tables, parallelize lookups ( and below all of this, do such things as driving the sdram , the nic PHYs , shuttle data b/w processors ) [11:42]
mircea_popescu: this doesn't sound like more than a few hundred adalines. [11:42]
asciilifeform: if you want 'modern' (Gb/s+) throughputs, it aint 'ada lines', but transistors. coupla mil of'em. [11:42]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847373 << i got a bsd box right here btw cost me nothing, took in as junk. [11:43]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:14 asciilifeform: ( 'industrial' telco gear is pretty much 'bsd box with array of GB nics soldered in' + some shitware ) [11:43]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: entirely so, but these won't http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847426 [11:43]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:27 asciilifeform: trinque: 'competition' box routes 1G/s from 48 jacks, daisy-chains with 10GB/s snakes, compiles ip filter rules into 1mil+ gate fpga fabric. how do i bake a sucks-less without large fpga ? ( we dun have large fpga, tho we do have working tiny ones ) [11:43]
mircea_popescu: so work with tiny ones. [11:44]
asciilifeform: the ice40 tops out at 250MHz (and drops rapidly when you fill it up, from switch fabric propagation delay) [11:44]
mircea_popescu: but you can have 1k of these lined up. [11:45]
asciilifeform: it is also pretty cramped sizewise (recall, i was not able to fit a single 4kbit adder into it) [11:45]
asciilifeform: 1k of these will eat 5kWatt. [11:45]
mircea_popescu: sooo ? [11:45]
asciilifeform: and occupy entire cabinet. [11:45]
mircea_popescu: that was the idea yes, acabinet. [11:45]
asciilifeform: so we want to make and sell a cray-1 ? [11:45]
mircea_popescu: actually, i was thinking, the tiny ices you use could be an intermediate step -- think alf, instead of fabric-of-transistors, fabric-of-ice [11:46]
asciilifeform: well yes, i've wanted 1 for ages. but if you add up the cost of a dozen of these, you could instead get equiv fabbed into single die. [11:46]
mircea_popescu: if it can process 100Gp/s rather than juniper's mahahahaybe 10Gp, nobody cares it eats a kw. [11:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, part of the reason i've been working on getting some chinese ppls is that i entirely don't believe single die fabbing is as expensive today as you think. [11:47]
mircea_popescu: however, before you make dies you gotta know what you put in and i know of no other way to find out. [11:48]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is almost certainly possible to razor a zero or even two, from the 'ratecard', if you can make friends in cn (or even tw, or kr) [11:48]
mircea_popescu: or three. [11:49]
asciilifeform: esp. if you're biznis genius and can talk'em into 'you get % of the winnings' in exch for discounts etc [11:49]
asciilifeform: the miner asic derps, somehow pulled this off [11:49]
asciilifeform: however i suspect that 'alt-juniper' would be small change, if we had fab friends, oughta go straight to general-purpose washington-free comp. [11:50]
asciilifeform: simpler, oddly enuff, engineering problem, also. [11:50]
asciilifeform: !#s mips.v [11:50]
a111: 3 results for "mips.v", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=mips.v [11:50]
asciilifeform: ^ subj [11:50]
mircea_popescu: absolutely not. [11:51]
asciilifeform: ~100 ln of verilog. [11:51]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847498 << iirc i answered this in the past, but this thread makes it even moar obvious what the pill is : make a hypertrophied ice40 (i.e. homogeneous lattice of gates.) with these, can bake alt-juniper, alt-pc, crypto, pretty much anyffing you like. [11:54]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:48 mircea_popescu: however, before you make dies you gotta know what you put in and i know of no other way to find out. [11:54]
asciilifeform: and can chain'em into 'cray' at will. [11:54]
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-17#1814886 and elsewhere ) [11:55]
a111: Logged on 2018-05-17 18:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if we had any fab capacity to speak of, these'd be the priority items : 1) large homogeneous fpga 2) otp roms 3) 1+2 [11:55]
mircea_popescu: mno, because drops rapidly when you fill it up [11:55]
asciilifeform: not mega-problem if you have large fabric, leaves lotsa room for optimal connection [11:56]
asciilifeform: it's an egregious problem in cramped fpga. [11:56]
mircea_popescu: from experience large items are cramped. [11:56]
mircea_popescu: that's why town is tight and village loose. [11:57]
asciilifeform: not if they're 5cents and you can matrix'em together. [11:57]
asciilifeform: usg.fpga is expensive because 'intellectual property' derpitude. [11:57]
mircea_popescu: all these lofty considerations aside... [11:57]
asciilifeform: imho 'sane fpga' is closest thing to 'philosopher's stone' accessible with current tech. [11:57]
mircea_popescu: are you making the alt juniper or arent you ? [11:57]
asciilifeform: if problem is defined in such a way that i can honestly say that i have from what to make it, and can be made to work to spec -- will make. otherwise not. [11:58]
mircea_popescu: alrite. [11:58]
asciilifeform: 'are you launching capsule into orbit or not' 'plox to 1st say, where is orbit, how big capsule, tovarisch stalin' [11:59]
asciilifeform: 'and do we have rockets or only slingshots' [11:59]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847373 [11:59]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:14 asciilifeform: ( 'industrial' telco gear is pretty much 'bsd box with array of GB nics soldered in' + some shitware ) [11:59]
mircea_popescu: in your own words! [11:59]
asciilifeform: rright, but in current (vs 20y ago) dc , they also incl. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847454 . [12:00]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ao4dQEtE6oc/VQ6JeUf9pkI/AAAAAAAADVk/hrSWedKzCG0/s1600/blog1_qfx10k_3.jpeg [12:00]
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you. [12:00]
asciilifeform: i dun disagree with mircea_popescu one bit, in re 'juniper/cisco Must Die'. but their death cannot be made from shoe string and bubble gum. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: i suppose one possible conclusion would be that "yes, indeed http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847453 but the time to do that was PRECISELY 15 years ago having smarter people doesn't compensate for being late, here as everywhere else". [12:01]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:36 mircea_popescu: i dunno what the fuck you think juniper is but as a factual matter juniper is the result of exactly this conversation among dumber people ~15 years ago. [12:01]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's research into finessing this problem, and 'yes bubble gum', so far reduces to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847428 hypothesis [12:01]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:29 asciilifeform: now what i ~have~ wanted to bake, for years nao, is a box with ~2~ jacks, that tests rsa sigs on specially-defined packets at line speed, and drops all the ones that dun pass. this is imho the Right Thing, for entirely curing the disease in question. [12:01]
mircea_popescu: which is not coincidentally how everything works, bitcoin, the republic, the lordship, etcetera. [12:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: arguably. at one time asic was too costly even for the telcos to deploy en masse, and it was possible to do without. sorta like in mining. [12:02]
asciilifeform: the box that entirely displaces the traditional ip routing system, and instead worx on signed packets, at GB/s, ~can~ , i suspect, be made with off-the-shelf iron. but it is a different pill, i cannot argue that it directly replaces juniperism. [12:04]
mircea_popescu: that hangs on various radio things. [12:05]
asciilifeform: radio is orthogonal. [12:05]
asciilifeform: the basic mechanics are same, whether carrier is radio, copper, or optics. [12:05]
mircea_popescu: technologically orthogonal but business requsite. [12:05]
asciilifeform: can carry over conventional fibers, or even telephone modem. [12:06]
asciilifeform: i daren't to presume to know whether biznis-requisite, that's a 100% mircea_popescu-grade puzzler. [12:06]
mircea_popescu: you don't really gain so much by having your special packets encapsulated in tcp [12:07]
mircea_popescu: and you're not in a position to lay cable just yet [12:07]
mircea_popescu: so... [12:07]
asciilifeform: even carrying in ordinary ip net, you gain the fact of '9000+' nodes that speak only to each other, and ddos of '9000' nodes, even if somehow all of'em were known to enemy, is impractical. [12:08]
asciilifeform: sorta how btc p2p net existingly worx. [12:08]
asciilifeform: observe that trb in fact worx pretty well, even though mircea_popescu did not lay cable. [12:10]
asciilifeform: this being said, eventual getting off usg.net is a godly thing, and inescapable . but it aint a desperate pre-req to routing sanity, imho. [12:11]
mircea_popescu: you know, the 2nd thing i know from watching you is that this conversation suddenly spinning in circles pretty well predicts you knew you were wrong re other call. [12:11]
asciilifeform: usg.tor was precisely the 'faux-phuctor' they built to distract thinking folx from the very idea. [12:11]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is always possible that i am wrong about some ( who knows, all ) piece. sorta why it is good to have dozen d00dz, vs 1 or 2, with hands growing from correct place [12:12]
mircea_popescu: well yes, but the question before you is, "have i actually sat down, thought this through, and it dun work" or is it a case of "my first impulse was so and so and now i'm stuck with it like any 9 yo" ? [12:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sat down and worked through it on several occasions, most recently during gossipd thread prior to that, when i was in slave galley and tore own hair out with juniperism and prior... [12:14]
mircea_popescu: alright, well. [12:15]
asciilifeform: and recall, at one time asciilifeform burned 6mo+ to try and bring up realtek GB nic from 'raw iron', in the end did not even succeed in this [12:15]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [12:16]
asciilifeform: possible that my hands do not grow from correct place, or possible that if mircea_popescu had chinese gurl, she could steal the missing datashit.. [12:16]
mircea_popescu: possibly! [12:16]
mircea_popescu: at least we managed to come to a narrative that stands to cursory examination. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: "yes it's true telco gear is mostly openbsd box with nics glued on but it's also true that is mostly old replacing it, when it happens, is mostly with nobusisms baked by the chinese to order, and it's a tough racket." [12:17]
asciilifeform: afaik this is correct sum. [12:17]
mircea_popescu: whether there is a hole there or isn't is an iffier problem. i am not overconcerned with it understand that wheever, in the großer generalstab or corporate boardroom, the story's always the same : "and we should send brigadier-general X to reduce the bulge" "it can't be fucking done, are you out of your mind ?!" [12:20]
mircea_popescu: on one hand people shouldn't be sent to do things that can't be done on the other hand somethings gotta can be done or else we're all sunk eventually. [12:21]
asciilifeform: rright. ideally you want to know what's possible before reaching the 'das war ein befehl!111111' stage [12:21]
mircea_popescu: rather. [12:22]
asciilifeform: some things i presently know how to do without vlsi. one of them was trng, and did. [12:22]
asciilifeform: if i knew how to do errything without vlsi, that can be done with, i'd be having tea with mircea_popescu in the palace on neighbouring hill, perhaps. [12:22]
asciilifeform: ( as it is, i spent good % of weekend in crapple store, and other % -- fixing fucking washing machine with own hands ) [12:23]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> speaking of which, BingoBoingo you ARE making cozy with dc tech people rite ? taking them out to smoke & crimping them to pot or w/e it is they do socially there ? << Fairly friendly with them now that Rodrigo (Fellow who decided to be the point man in the February affair, ben_vulpes met) is gone. [12:24]
mircea_popescu: cool. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know i suspect one of the washing machines could do with fixing... [12:26]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was lulzy, Official repair d00d threw up hands, 'can't source part' [12:27]
asciilifeform: i could tell 9000 stories like this, they all end same [12:27]
asciilifeform: asciilifeform goes and conujures up the 'unobtainium' [12:27]
asciilifeform: *conjures [12:28]
mircea_popescu: ah [12:28]
mircea_popescu: yeah, usg supply lines going to shit at a seemingly exponential rate [12:28]
mircea_popescu: "we have this website, can order anything" "you mean besides plastic cup holders ?" "WHO WOULD WANT THAT!!!" [12:29]
mircea_popescu: "you know... the soviets had a website like that." [12:29]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: current usg is quite eager to have konsoomer dispose of old, repairable [cars, washers, etc] in favour of chinesium [12:29]
mircea_popescu: certainly. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: and then when it starts blinking, konsoomer will be in the exact 1989 position. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: "i know... the way to win is to be as vulnerable as possible!" [12:29]
mircea_popescu: "let's do new orleans continent-wide, that worked so well for us!" [12:30]
asciilifeform: folx like asciilifeform , only have any pocket money left , because they're willing to lay out the grease rag and spend whole day+ inside gears, belts [12:30]
asciilifeform: alternative is 'oops, sucks to be you, you bought 2k machine , what do you mean you expect more than 6months out of it' [12:30]
asciilifeform: 'terrorist.' [12:31]
asciilifeform: 'here, buy a 3k one on installment, it'll last 9 months, we promise' [12:31]
asciilifeform: iirc ben_vulpes , trinque , have old autos, know exactly what this story is about. [12:32]
* asciilifeform dreams of living in a thing where he could have pit, crane... [12:33]
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform dreams of living in a thing where he could have pit, crane... << Paraguay! [12:34]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i thought para-- was mule country [12:35]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It is mule and dump country. They take old Jap cars and flip the steering to the other side. [12:36]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: prolly a far cry from the master smiths of havana, who can fit toyota engine block into lada, with moskvich transmission [12:37]
BingoBoingo: Likely, they actually import used cars there (Rest of Mercosur only imports new) [12:37]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: orcistans starved for imports , sometimes have astonishing masters of junkyard wars [12:38]
mircea_popescu: i have a pile of old autos, they're a joy. [12:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: key element, your orcistan has not only old autos but master smiths. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: oh, i wouldn't trust the locals to smith inside it. [12:39]
asciilifeform: if only had old autos, would be spending time like ben_vulpes & asciilifeform . [12:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who do you have doing it, then [12:39]
mircea_popescu: but take bartholomew, the early 2000s bmw. all it needs is maintenance. [12:39]
asciilifeform: and when needs new rack&pinion, who does it [12:40]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform will replace engine with other car's engine at some point. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: had transmission thusly replaced, for instance. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: but it's way the fuck better to maintain this car than to try and what, 20k for last year's kia ? noty. [12:41]
asciilifeform: it's how it's done, yes [12:41]
asciilifeform: and noshit. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: right. [12:41]
mircea_popescu: while supplies last. [12:41]
asciilifeform: the seekret is that supplies last, theoretically, for long time, there are folx repairing t34 and mig21 today. [12:41]
asciilifeform: but, costs. [12:42]
asciilifeform: ( recall the mig scrapyard in timis ? ) [12:42]
mircea_popescu: certainly. [12:42]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847282 << somehow i missed this line on 1st pass through log. yes, that's exactly it. [12:48]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 14:44 mircea_popescu: but yes, evidently the (undiagnosed are these people morons ?!) problem is that "anything could be a firewall rule", ie, this is a place where the scripting turns upon the whole machine state. which makes me suspoect there's a more fundamental error at work somewhere (possibly the very attempt to build a pantsuit net, allcomers-based, possibly something else), but until we get a fix on that... [12:48]
asciilifeform: the allcomers-net is fundamentally bottomless hole. [12:49]
mircea_popescu: right. [12:49]
mircea_popescu: scripting fundamentally IS NOT THAT moving the steer will result in changes of direction, but will NOT result in changes of tapestry. [12:49]
mircea_popescu: an attempt to "make tapestry scriptable also" is the sure sign that women-in-general are now involved in that concern. [12:50]
asciilifeform: this kind of thing shows up whenever a broken basis is picked . [12:50]
asciilifeform: turns into infinite bubblegum plugs. [12:50]
asciilifeform: ( recall the dma thread, for instance. 9000+ hacks around the retardation of von neumann box. ) [12:52]
ave1: trinque, re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-03#1847167, yes turned out the git that cuntoo uses did not support https and my ufw settings did not allow an outgoing git port number. Now it fails it a bit further along with dependencies on gnupg-2.2, but I think this was a known breakage... [12:53]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-03 22:37 trinque: ave1: couldn't reproduce your errors. all I had to do to re-run the cuntoo build was to fix the portage snapshot var. [12:53]
asciilifeform: ohai ave1 [12:53]
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/09/04/live-from-rockchip-with-mp-wp/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Live From RockChip! With MP-WP! [12:53]
ave1: hi asciilifeform [12:53]
trinque: no, not known. the thing runs start to finish on my end. [12:53]
asciilifeform: ave1: didja ever get a arm32 gnat built ? turns out, 'uboot' needs one, to build [12:53]
trinque: ave1: however, when I grunt out this genesis vpatch, git dependency evaporates. [12:54]
asciilifeform: ( arm8 apparently includes a 32bit 'M0' coprocessor, 'for power manager' ) [12:54]
trinque: layman (portage overlay manager) is pulling that in [12:54]
ave1: trinque: I get the error when this line is run: sudo chroot . emerge eudev lilo genkernel gentoo-sources app-crypt/gnupg parted sudo [12:54]
ave1: asciilifeform: I did not build an arm32 version yet (but should be easier that aarch64), it does have something with different abi that have to be named. I will check this week [12:56]
asciilifeform: ave1: afaik adacore already distributed a 32bit one, might want to look to see what it was made of [12:57]
asciilifeform: i'd like to never again use theirs, tho, but only ave1's builders [12:57]
asciilifeform: ( where ideally i can put in any arch supported by gcc backend, and get a that-flavoured gnat out ) [12:57]
ave1: yes, support should be there (one of the most irratating problems I had was with the config.guess scripts not includig a particular system) [12:58]
asciilifeform: i did not expect to ever again need a 32bit arm gcc, but there it is. [12:58]
ave1: trinque: this is what I get on that emerge: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/MmnDr/?raw=true. P.S. l can wait for an updated version and try again, this is the first time since years that I tried gentoo again. [13:00]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo nice! [13:00]
ave1: Also the first time that I tried to rebuild a kernel, first try needed 15G of harddisk space and created a 3G kernel (now down to 500mb, which compresses to about 12 or so, but still) [13:01]
asciilifeform: 3G kernel ?!!! [13:01]
asciilifeform: ( even microshit, has, what, 50MB one ) [13:01]
trinque: ave1: I appreciate the testing, will put another version in your hands soon [13:01]
ave1: Yes, this is when you base the kernel off the ubuntu config (with all modules enabled) and then try to include all modules in the kernel. [13:04]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty [13:05]
asciilifeform: congrats BingoBoingo ! [13:06]
BingoBoingo: And thank you hanbot, the V Genesised MP-WP is very nice. Much improved dashboard and editors. [13:07]
asciilifeform: ave1: what exactly depends on gpg2?! [13:08]
trinque: I just said, layman. [13:09]
asciilifeform: aaa [13:09]
asciilifeform: ok there i see it. [13:09]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/serbia-considering-land-swap-with-breakaway-kosovo/ << Qntra - Serbia Considering Land Swap With Breakaway Kosovo [13:55]
BingoBoingo: lobbes: What sort of memory footprint is mysql leaving on your rockchip? [14:04]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo how do you measure this ? top ? [14:05]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah, I'm looking at top [14:06]
mircea_popescu: 84m res 2791m virt on the box running trilema. [14:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pmap [14:08]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, whatever mechanism he wants. [14:08]
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000107.html << for reference, recipe for graphic process mem usages [14:09]
asciilifeform: produces things like http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150701/private_dirty_593063f24445b86ead7ed066cec803fa2cbec79b.png . [14:09]
asciilifeform: ( btw congrats to jurov & mod6 for bringing ml back to life ! ) [14:10]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86316 << in ancientola. [14:14]
a111: Logged on 2013-03-11 07:01 dub: there is thousands of retarded children with a handfull of hackers hiding behind them [14:14]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86304 << still unsolved enigma, afaik.. [14:18]
a111: Logged on 2013-03-11 07:03 mircea_popescu: dub how do you explain most cocksuckers can't use bitcoin ? [14:18]
mircea_popescu: ikr. [14:18]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86221 << lol, prophecy [14:24]
a111: Logged on 2013-03-11 07:17 mircea_popescu: actually the plan was to have tcp/ip reimpremented over pigeons [14:24]
mircea_popescu: lotta these! [14:25]
asciilifeform: lotsa good lulz from before asciilifeform tuned in. ( sometimes i go back an' read these, but most of it dun make sense except to expert archaeologist, which i am not ) [14:25]
mircea_popescu: feel free to ask [14:26]
asciilifeform: who , for instance , was smickles. ( i formed impression that he was an active fella, but do not know with what ) [14:27]
asciilifeform: ( seems to have been a trader ? ) [14:27]
mircea_popescu: smickles was very active, bright and clear minded accountant guy. [14:29]
mircea_popescu: eventually wandered off into seculum. [14:29]
asciilifeform: there were a number of these, i think [14:29]
mircea_popescu: certainly. [14:30]
asciilifeform: ( cashed out megatonne of btc into saeculobux, melted brain ? ) [14:30]
mircea_popescu: i don't expect he ever had megatonne tbh. [14:30]
asciilifeform: but perhaps had enuff to contract kuru. [14:30]
mircea_popescu: in five years one'd think "oh, the people from 2018, bought millions' worth of btc, are now rich". to the people of 2018, bitcoin seems, somehow, "expensive". which is necessary -- if it didn't, price'd rise. [14:31]
mircea_popescu: similarly for people of 2013, you realise ? "it was expensive" [14:31]
asciilifeform: way i see it, there was this degenerative disease, 'i am rich nao!111, will go and buy cocaine yacht and opium-retire on it' , number of sufferers in log history [14:31]
asciilifeform: ( i suspect they all ended up like esr, but naturally have no way to know ) [14:32]
mircea_popescu: i still recall with amusement rassah's story about how he bought a bunch of coins without bf's permission out of their retirement fund, at 8!! and sold it all! at 13!!! RICH NAO FOREVER, because will pay off car. [14:32]
mircea_popescu: this made sense to people at the time. [14:32]
asciilifeform: fwiw it never made sense to asciilifeform [14:33]
mircea_popescu: paid off car!!1 [14:33]
asciilifeform: why bother unraveling massive cpp hairball, for small change.. [14:33]
asciilifeform: 'pay off car' lol [14:33]
asciilifeform: even 'pay off house' is crumbs, for the sort of work these people (as i understand) were doing [14:33]
Mocky: I cpu mined bitcoin when it was under 10. I made hundreds of dollars [14:35]
asciilifeform: then again, who am i to laugh, i burned '13 on hand-built fpga miner. made grand total of 0.6 coin. [14:35]
mircea_popescu: you utterly misunderstand. all these wankers did 0 work, precise to 6 decimals. [14:35]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also '0 work' in the newtonian sense. [14:35]
asciilifeform: to as many decimal commas as one might ask. [14:35]
asciilifeform: at least, then. [14:35]
mircea_popescu: get out, rassah spent whole life writing social media crap. like that david gerard animated scarecrow thing. [14:35]
mircea_popescu: mpoe-pr without the mpoe, or hanbot. [14:36]
asciilifeform: !!reputation rassah [14:36]
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/a4CUU/?raw=true [14:36]
asciilifeform: ^ loox pretty dead [14:36]
asciilifeform: 'lost key' [14:37]
mircea_popescu: o look at that, "I helped run plenty of conferences. I do have an idea. The priority is to make sure you have a conference that runs well enough that people don't notice the problems, and that everyone who paid to attend it gets their money's worth. Who actually paid to make it happen is a bit lower on the priority." [14:37]
mircea_popescu: cazalla's comments meanwhile beleted, but lulzy reddit thread he links [14:38]
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2r0twz/josh_garza_must_not_be_allowed_to_speak_at_the/cnbuxyx/ specifically [14:38]
BingoBoingo: Ah, the good olde days [14:38]
mircea_popescu: word! [14:39]
mircea_popescu: ("theymos" "rassah" 8 3572807706 "Holds BTC for the forum.") << aaahahaha epic luzl. [14:39]
asciilifeform: when asciilifeform ran into 'btc komyoonity', ended up quickly setting bozo bit on all 'investmentisms' en masse. ( even included mircea_popescu & co, was not able to distinguish from the rest until hanbot wrote to me and asked to try demo & read the mpoe materials ) [14:40]
mircea_popescu: now imagine if, instead of that, i'd have had her write "hey, we're thinking of one day making #trilema" as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847437 0-cost-experiment logix. [14:41]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 15:32 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let's do a 0cost experiment, why dontcha float the idea to the dc people, see reaction. [14:41]
asciilifeform: lol [14:41]
mircea_popescu: well ? [14:41]
mircea_popescu: YOU PROPOSED IT [14:41]
asciilifeform: faraday's 'what use is baby' eh. [14:41]
mircea_popescu: i guess so. [14:41]
mircea_popescu: !#s captains of industry [14:42]
a111: 14 results for "captains of industry", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=captains%20of%20industry [14:42]
asciilifeform: mercaptans. [14:43]
mircea_popescu: ^ this was a thing. "bitcoin jesus" was a thing. all sorta lulz lie buried in the everlog. [14:43]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mercaptans. << Ah, those sulphur smelling wenches with the cloaca and scales! [14:44]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to my eye, it all looked like exactly identical pyramidism, 'nobody's manufacturing anyffing, not chips, not prime ribs, not even porn flicks, all numbers games with each other's belly lint' [14:46]
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform was convinced that btc would sink [14:47]
mircea_popescu: the problem with manufactury is that often the evaluation of cultural artefacts produced is very difficult. [14:51]
asciilifeform: ( fwiw asciilifeform has today -- minus bbet -- all of the coin he had then, and if he had found the subj interesting from practical pov vs merely scientific, and bought with money, would likely have it still, asciilifeform is 100% immune to pretty much all of the diseases that cost the 'early adopters' their toys ) [14:51]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is quite troo [14:52]
asciilifeform: but in so far as i was able to see, in those days, the only physical product was smalltime dope peddlage [14:54]
asciilifeform: ( and, i suppose, miners, which struck me as immediately pyramidal, 'if this were +ev, the vendor would keep'em, not sell' ) [14:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is false, incidentally. amir taaki famously had his 16 yo sister camho for coins. [14:58]
asciilifeform: i believe. [14:58]
asciilifeform: but then, did not know. [14:58]
mircea_popescu: anyway, there was a lot of metals dealing for coin back in the day. [14:59]
asciilifeform: i did see these. but barfed mightily when reaching out tentacle and thinking of trying, and then found that they cancel orders arbitrarily when price moves [14:59]
asciilifeform: the odor of cynical scamola was overpowering to my nose. [14:59]
mircea_popescu: yes well. [15:03]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: does ro have that folk tale, where 'go left, lose your horse, go right, lose yer life,...' etc ? [15:04]
asciilifeform: that's what whole shebang looked like to asciilifeform . [15:04]
mircea_popescu: yes well... for a while it quite was. [15:05]
asciilifeform: 'Налево пойдешь - коня потеряешь...' [15:05]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you will prolly laugh, but asciilifeform ~so~ despised the canaille , that could not bring himself to ~buy~ coin, that's why ended up fidding with handmade miners etc [15:15]
asciilifeform: and still despises. [15:15]
asciilifeform: *fiddling [15:15]
mircea_popescu: i confess it's a strange way to go about things. [15:15]
asciilifeform: a moar malodorous set of derps than the 'mainstream' 'btc komyoonity', prolly to this day does not exist. [15:15]
mircea_popescu: sure does. walk into any us conference of professionals [15:16]
asciilifeform: same people neh [15:16]
mircea_popescu: be it judges, politicians, realtors or the community of poets from wisconsin [15:16]
mircea_popescu: not exactly, a lot of foreign derps in bitcoin, esp early 2010s. [15:16]
asciilifeform: re judges, i suspect moar alzheimer's flavour, but do not specifically know, i dun have any in my wot [15:16]
mircea_popescu: most of these bums, from taaki to whoever else, are precisely not the us professional class, but the orc dreamer. [15:17]
mircea_popescu: tryna make it to florida. [15:17]
asciilifeform: that eternal eldorado, eh [15:17]
mircea_popescu: gotta tell mom you've made something of self [15:18]
mircea_popescu: cuz can't show her. [15:18]
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem of http://trilema.com/2017/damele-dameleee/#selection-93.1-93.316 ain't easily gone away. [15:19]
mircea_popescu: pretend to make gods of men all ye will, the problems of gods then they'll assail. [15:20]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> that eternal eldorado, eh << Nah, Miami [15:20]
asciilifeform: let the gods strike me down, but, will confess, asciilifeform never yearned for miami. [15:23]
asciilifeform: nor has much patience for the 'yearners'. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: easy enough to do from washington dc. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: just as slimy, just as swampy. [15:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: think, for what do i need miami, i have all the mosquitoes here anyone could want [15:24]
mircea_popescu: exactl.y [15:24]
asciilifeform: i suppose missing is python, alligator. [15:24]
mircea_popescu: and all the old jews and so on. [15:24]
asciilifeform: those -- we have [15:24]
mircea_popescu: i meant, "already have" [15:24]
asciilifeform: ( they dun all fit in nyc and miami ) [15:24]
asciilifeform: aaha [15:24]
mircea_popescu: in other news, /me is working on a monstrous, 70k+ words as it stands nao, work of adnotation. [15:25]
mircea_popescu: with any luck, tomorrow. [15:25]
asciilifeform: neato [15:25]
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847747 -> hm, I remember more the version with "if you take it, you'll be sorry, if you don't take it, you'll be sorry so better take it" [15:34]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 19:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: does ro have that folk tale, where 'go left, lose your horse, go right, lose yer life,...' etc ? [15:34]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: take which. on my home planet the story had a 3way fork. [15:34]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman it's there, harap alb, etc. [15:35]
asciilifeform: (trilema, if you will..) [15:35]
mircea_popescu: abundantly ethnological. [15:35]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, ah, the 3 road forks was "on this road you'll never come back" [15:35]
asciilifeform: ~that~ was a given [15:35]
diana_coman: the take was take a feather or whatever it was [15:35]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I don't recall any explicit fork in harap alb? or what, after he gets into the well, the "choice"? [15:36]
mircea_popescu: hmm, i'm goping through creanga's cannonical and i don't see it but i quite literally recall this "take the left, lose your life take the right, lose your quest go straight ahead and lose both" [15:39]
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847657 << glad it's working well. looks good from here! [15:40]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 17:07 BingoBoingo: And thank you hanbot, the V Genesised MP-WP is very nice. Much improved dashboard and editors. [15:40]
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/EcCV7 << collection of illustrations , re subj [15:41]
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847674 << always was and still is fear. everyone i talk to, from parent to phlebotomist to self-imagined "people in crypto" says the same shit: they don't know how, and learning looks too vast, and nobody will issue them certificate of Everything's-Okay. [15:44]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 18:18 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86304 << still unsolved enigma, afaik.. [15:44]
mircea_popescu: and god only had a few million souls at the peak available and the women kept pouring out children, and well... [15:47]
mircea_popescu: ~everyone's supernumerary. [15:47]
asciilifeform: http://www.forex.ua/blog-images/%D0%92%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8C_cr.jpg << variant. [15:53]
asciilifeform: hanbot: fear dun explain it, imho, derps will 'invest' in unbelievably outlandish nonsense happily w/out fear [15:56]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The people peddling the outlandish nonsense go out of their way to relieve fear. It's what the swindlers do [15:59]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'millenials' are generally subhuman ( as per mircea_popescu's 'souls' portrait ) older folx, on other hand, have deep scars of 'who am i to think that i can own anything, the takers always find a way to take it' [16:00]
BingoBoingo: Sure they don't have souls, but they got some rusty python scripts to follow [16:01]
mircea_popescu: there is that but more common with older folks seems a deep and fundamental ineptitude with the programmable machines [16:02]
asciilifeform: ( speaking here of the saner older folx there's no shortage of idjits who think they 'own' usg house etc ) [16:02]
mircea_popescu: watch them at work, the impression becomes inescapable you're trying to teach lizzards writing [16:02]
mircea_popescu: "but your right honorable greatness! WE HAVE NO OPPOSABLE THUMBS!" [16:02]
mircea_popescu: the "internet=blue ie/facebook icon" exact diametrical of http://trilema.com/2018/wood-impregnated-in-oil-a-metaphor/#comment-126055 is not even the whole story. [16:04]
mircea_popescu: to put the matter into proper formalization : the old world, of mechanical contraptions that could be physically debugged, was relatively simple and moreover in certain senses and on some dimensions very strictly constrained. consequently it was possible to build exam-taking rulebooks that allowed a large population of morons to build up, and "work", passibly well, as church wardens, ship righters, what have you. [16:06]
mircea_popescu: but the more abstract world of representation (aptly described not by the computer, but by the trilema-style referencing, which is more fundamental a computer than the computer itself for the needs of this conversation) suddenly exploded all that. like when you lift a rug, suddenly all sorts of scum was exposed that before passed. [16:07]
mircea_popescu: "you are not smart enough to be here" certaily means something at all points of human existence, from the eleusine days forward, and before. but WHAT it exactly means depends strictly on how sharp and how effectual tools there are available ti distinguish sense from idiocy. [16:08]
asciilifeform: this is mircea_popescu's earlier 'end of industrial rev' thesis, aha [16:08]
mircea_popescu: yes, but in a different aspect that concerned principally the happenstance that labour is no longer a thing, much like phlogiston is no longer a thing. [16:09]
mircea_popescu: this has no bearing on the expectations of people to feed themselves through work of their hands but it speaks rather on the expectation of people that they can make friends. [16:09]
mircea_popescu: as a factual matter, i could (and did) pick up women i'd share a bed with on the street, some short two decades ago. even less. [16:09]
mircea_popescu: today i have to go through millions of "profiles", and the results are overall less satisfactory. [16:10]
mircea_popescu: what's changed ? [16:10]
asciilifeform: well 20y ago they were 'grass-fed' chix, today -- 'feedlot' millenials [16:11]
mircea_popescu: it never occured to me to inquire whether, or that i'd care if, 1998 girly wrote anything. who the fuck cares, "sense enough to not get run over" was plenty, then. [16:11]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i fear that may be just so much wishful thinking. [16:11]
asciilifeform: what's the alt-hypothesis then [16:11]
mircea_popescu: literally this, things are important now that literally did not exist a decade, or a century, or ten thousand centuries ago. [16:11]
asciilifeform: exactly same item as when writing was discovered [16:12]
mircea_popescu: dante wisely never asked beatrice if she could read the latin verse. nor did he care [16:12]
mircea_popescu: which is why renaissance did not start with dante it included him, but in effigy. [16:12]
asciilifeform: possibly because could not afford to care [16:12]
mircea_popescu: possibly because did not care, to begin with. [16:13]
mircea_popescu: and for same reason he didn't care -- he also didn't start the renaissance. [16:13]
BingoBoingo: !Q later tell trinque Secular Texas related question I recieved for your laffs http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EnsvM/?raw=true [16:13]
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded. [16:13]
asciilifeform: today mircea_popescu pumps 100,000 litres of ocean water and finds 1-2 chix that can pgp. but what if had to pump 10,000,000 litres, and got 1 chix, and she looked like emmy noether, what then. [16:13]
mircea_popescu: ~same. what do i care. [16:14]
mircea_popescu: besides, one's in a much better position to find comnena in 1200s than 1400s. by the 1400s, nobody in italy could read greek, you realise this ? [16:14]
mircea_popescu: special greek teacher had to be imported, and was the only and first one in century+ [16:15]
mircea_popescu: (coluccio salutati, by any accounts the man that made it work, a http://trilema.com/2014/fred-quimby-and-ancient-evils/ character brought manuel chrysoloras to florence, and thereby aristotle could be read for the first time in greek, rather than in arabic) [16:19]
mircea_popescu: (and since we're doing notes : anna porphyrogenita has an ancient name, which approximately meant the same as "comely". Ἄννα Κομνηνή, anna the comely. looks nothing like noether!) [16:22]
asciilifeform: porphyrogenita << i still find the 'snailcoin' interesting [17:00]
mircea_popescu: which one is this ? [17:03]
asciilifeform: 6,6-dibromoindigo [17:03]
asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/lxAGF/?raw=true << likbez for n00bz, de-pdfized. [17:07]
mircea_popescu: you want to stink like a fishwife ? [17:07]
asciilifeform: i dun think the finished product had a smell [17:07]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lulzily, modern chemists found that it... semiconducts [17:08]
deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/04/pura-vida-like-no-other/ << Ossasepia - Pura Vida Like No Other [17:09]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform smelled such that it was specifically a cause of divorce among the jews [17:09]
mircea_popescu: "man took up dyeing": [17:09]
asciilifeform: i recall [17:10]
asciilifeform: but not product, but the manufacture process [17:10]
asciilifeform: ( where you had to ferment the snails ) [17:10]
mircea_popescu: the colored clothes themselves. [17:10]
asciilifeform: even after sun dry ? caesar went around outgassing ? [17:10]
mircea_popescu: aha. [17:11]
mircea_popescu: "stench as lasting as the color" says the ancient source. [17:11]
asciilifeform: interesting [17:11]
asciilifeform: this 'feature' appears to be missing from the synthetic variant.. [17:12]
mircea_popescu: semiconducted out ? [17:12]
asciilifeform: lol [17:12]
mircea_popescu: anyway, afaik wasn't really industrialized ever [17:12]
asciilifeform: not in orig variant afaik. [17:14]
asciilifeform: ( possibly for this reason ? ) [17:14]
mircea_popescu: expensive, in any case. [17:15]
asciilifeform: made with orig method, was most expensive manufactured substance known at the time, afaik [17:16]
mircea_popescu: after the western world brought the benefits of democracy to the byzantines, the latter also stopped using it. [17:16]
asciilifeform: afaik byzantine never once could afford to make even 1 purple robe with snail. [17:16]
asciilifeform: it went away with the eastern rome. [17:16]
asciilifeform: err, western [17:16]
mircea_popescu: nah, they kept doing it for centuries after. [17:18]
mircea_popescu: finally stopped cca 11th century. [17:18]
asciilifeform: i thought they had switched to ersatz , with fall of rome ( vermillion ? ) [17:18]
mircea_popescu: byzantium was both richer and larger than rome throughout the entire xtian period [17:18]
mircea_popescu: the french used the beetle. [17:18]
asciilifeform: ah [17:18]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: holy fuq, who the fuck chains up a crocodile. why not humanely put a 12ga to its head, omfg [17:20]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, myeah, what can I say [17:20]
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : do folx still make croc leather ? [17:20]
diana_coman: the "kind" people who "won't kill" I guess I really don't have any other explanation for that shit [17:21]
mircea_popescu: they came up with a buncha pantsuitisms here no smoking in public, no genuine leather... can't even keep a chipmunk pet. not legally at any rate. [17:21]
asciilifeform: srsly? this is even moar oddball than usa [17:21]
diana_coman: o.O what, I broke the law by wearing leather shoes and sandals?? [17:21]
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well, you didn't ~make them~. [17:22]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, they have laws and rules but basically they don't really apply them , at least not in the manner you think of "apply" [17:22]
asciilifeform: aah orcistan [17:22]
diana_coman: child had a small ball and apparently there was a rule that no balls allowed in park so before we even got to the gate, one guard was trying to convince me to hide the ball in a jacket (I had no idea wtf for, it made sense only on hindsight) at the "control" I simply said that ball stays in backpack so it's not a problem and they ..were fine with that [17:24]
mircea_popescu: if they were rid of the moronic usgistani monkeys on their back, they'd be truly happy people. [17:24]
asciilifeform: it was usg that forbade rubber ball ? [17:25]
asciilifeform: or speaking moar generally of the infectious prion. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: the latter. [17:25]
* asciilifeform can picture it [17:25]
mircea_popescu: they don't naturally conceive usa is filth. [17:25]
mircea_popescu: imagine the reasoning of little girl, "mommy, mommy, isn't my skirt much better now, i put some mud on it" [17:26]
asciilifeform: i'd've naively imagined they have enuff contact with usg escapees, to know what it is [17:26]
mircea_popescu: notrly. [17:26]
diana_coman: asciilifeform, their contact is "tourists are american and give us lots of money" from what I can tell [17:26]
mircea_popescu: most tourists are really pan-german [17:26]
mircea_popescu: dutch, german, etc. [17:27]
asciilifeform: americans , as whole, dun tourist so much, they get, what, 1wk of time off / yr [17:27]
asciilifeform: and they spend it with the bottle, in milwaukee, with 'fambly' [17:27]
diana_coman: I did hear a lot of dutch and german too,that is true but all the dollar-prices and loads of English spoken and the baked in assumption - American, I don't know [17:27]
asciilifeform: diana_coman: dunno whether you knew, but in usa there is ~substantial~ population of folx who... haven't a passport. [17:28]
asciilifeform: like hruschev's 1960s, kolhoz. [17:28]
asciilifeform: i aint speaking of the mexicans, either [17:28]
asciilifeform: ( literally, they can't be arsed to pay the 100bux + the photographer's 10. because they can't picture 'where to go, why' ) [17:29]
diana_coman: it's unclear to me only if the similarity goes that far since at least in RO people *wanted* passport or afaik many americans don't see /conceive/think of the need for passport, so possible one up [17:30]
diana_coman: aha [17:30]
asciilifeform: they are quite similar, imho. usa has moar 'advanced' republikflucht-prevention than ye olde su, is all [17:30]
diana_coman: come to think of it, maybe americans were simply so loud and rather obnoxious that they were more visible, huh doing some counting here I remember there was even a rather large group of ...italians, lol [17:31]
diana_coman: so mircea_popescu is probably right re numbers [17:31]
BingoBoingo: <diana_coman> I did hear a lot of dutch and german too,that is true but all the dollar-prices and loads of English spoken and the baked in assumption - American, I don't know << Lots of Germans passed through the hostel (less than Latinos/Brasileros) they speak English because their hollywood ended in 1940s [18:21]
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847663 << I just ran top for a bit. Looks like the most mysql ever takes is ~6.6% of memory. fwiw I'm just using httpd (not sure if this would be a factor in mysql memory usage, but only difference I can think of between our LAMPs) [20:21]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-04 18:04 BingoBoingo: lobbes: What sort of memory footprint is mysql leaving on your rockchip? [20:21]
lobbes: also, congrats on joining teh mp-wp-rk club [20:23]
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=9 << Bimbo.Club - So what does happen when you drop everything and dedicate your life to serving... [20:48]
mircea_popescu: "Jake Joseph Paul is an American actor and YouTube personality who rose to significant fame on the now-defunct video application Vine. " [21:56]
mircea_popescu: tha fuck does this even mean ? how can it possibly be significant if defunct ?! [21:57]
mircea_popescu: even the momentarily-still-alive ones are very arguably significant at all. [21:57]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-05#1847915 >> 'I was in a position in which I enforced company policy, hired, and fired as human resources and now no longer have an office with my name on the wall or any authority however, I do have a 'cage', collar, and a really cute headband...' >> lol win, oblig >> 'Yea, a trooper of the forces who has run his own six horses!' (tm)(r)(kipling) [23:19]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-05 00:48 deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=9 << Bimbo.Club - So what does happen when you drop everything and dedicate your life to serving... [23:19]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well ? [23:20]
asciilifeform: well neat, afaik this is the 1st talking seal with blog, at least as the l0gz go [23:20]
asciilifeform: pet: 'this reads like a alt.sex.stories post' [23:21]
mircea_popescu: i am most curious in how time shall grind it. [23:25]
mircea_popescu: but yes, she's not read nearly enough to be capable of penmanship in anything but the common low style. yet. [23:26]
asciilifeform: this was the accountant chix , iirc ? [23:26]
asciilifeform: i take it they dun waste their time with book-larnin' no moar.. [23:27]
mircea_popescu: if they do, it's not apparent. [23:30]
Mocky: ok, word is: no family in the region [23:36]
mircea_popescu: lucky you. [23:36]
Category: Logs
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