Forum logs for 26 Aug 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
PeterL: too busy staring at their phones to touch each other, no touching means no sex [00:01]
PeterL: what do you consider the age cutoff for millenials? Or is it a frame of mind rather than a specific age range? [00:03]
deedbot: << Daniel P. Barron - He has an unclean spirit. [00:07]
BingoBoingo: No idea [00:09]
mircea_popescu: phf word. [00:45]
davout: my new address for those who'll want to visit [00:46]
BingoBoingo: nice davout [01:09]
felipelalli: mircea_popescu: znc running in a fucking rubish vps. any problem please swear at me again. [01:16]
jurov: later tell PeterL run configure as: CFLAGS=-fexceptions CXXFLAGS=-fexceptions ./configure [05:04]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [05:04]
jurov: ^ since there's no gribble in #eulora [05:04]
Framedragger: << just curious - does the gossip spec as it is place any trust in ip addresses? this iirc was one of the points criticized by asciilifeform, i would think it to be a valid one. sorry if this, too, was extensively discussed in the logs. [08:47]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 01:10 phf: adlai: i think gossip spec is fine, just nobody took it to release. asciilifeform has significant changes to the spec, but if you ignore those you can still build a working implementation. in fact, unless you're ascii, i think it's better to ignore further discussion and just stick to what mp wrote. i also think it's one of those ideas you don't want nailed down at protocol level. mine for example slings gpg packets [08:47]
phf: it doesn't place any ~trust~ in ip addresses [08:47]
phf: asciilifeform's objections was that gossipd relies on ip addresses at all [08:48]
phf: the argument is that technology needs to be entirely routing agnostic, where's now you think in terms of (afair) mappings between keys and addresses [08:48]
Framedragger: that can be construed as trust, but yeah ok. [08:49]
phf: oh ffs [08:49]
Framedragger: i won't argue the point, sorry for any frustration caused. the thing i have in mind is probably not the "current spec" anyway! [08:50]
phf: it can be construed as trust if you don't anything beyond what i said, so i also said that there's no trust. of course that's only my interpretation and asciilifeform can provide his own [08:50]
Framedragger: ..iirc one of the original ideas was to "pass around ip addresses" as things bound to some nick/identity there is a trust component here but i'm sure it's evolved since then, etc etc. [08:53]
phf: that's a pretty useless interpretation of trust [08:54]
phf: if i tell you "go to such and such place and then once you're there do another validation" you don't have to trust that "such and such place" is valid purely by being there [08:55]
Framedragger: ..however, it is possible to get drowned in sibyl nodes. but, i get your point. [08:56]
phf: i don't think there's a solution to drowned in sibyl's in general. there's a cost to validating counterparty (which is continuous in case of gossipd, there's no "validate the ip, and then trust it" which is what i mean by "no trust in ip"), which can be exploited by attacker. [09:04]
Framedragger: true, good point of course. [09:09]
phf: come to think of it sybil is not the right word in this case, on application level there's no psuedonymity and you only talk to people in wot. on transport level an attacker can construct a valid looking (struct layout wise) pgp packet, which in my naive spec implementation is handed over to gnupg. now you have a bunch of potential attack vectors here, but assuming there's no memory attacks in gnupg, race conditions in gpgme, [09:13]
phf: etc. you're only dealing with cost of validation. (which could be brought down by having own crypto) [09:13]
asciilifeform: << ~tcp~ is evil, and i will kill it with my own hands. at least in the sense where i killed, e.g., git. [09:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 12:50 phf: it can be construed as trust if you don't anything beyond what i said, so i also said that there's no trust. of course that's only my interpretation and asciilifeform can provide his own [09:34]
asciilifeform: tcp is evil, fundamentally because it violates the 'NEVER something-for-nothing-to-all-comers-FUCKOFFRANDOS' principle. [09:34]
asciilifeform: hence the existence of such a thing as a syn flood. [09:34]
asciilifeform: it is ALSO evil because it sends anything whatsoever in the cleartext (sequence number, for instance, and RESET) [09:35]
asciilifeform: usg can reset any and all tcp connections whenever it feels like it. [09:35]
asciilifeform: as happens many times every day on our trb nodes. [09:35]
asciilifeform: it can also inject crapolade, into any tcp stream whatsoever. this is not a hypothetical, the actual mechanism that is actually used was recently discovered. [09:36]
asciilifeform: but it was ~always~ possible, from day1 of tcp, and this is evident to anyone with a copy of, e.g, richard stevens's 'tcp/ip illustrated'. [09:37]
asciilifeform: to kindergarten pupils. [09:37]
phf: yeah it's a shitty transport, that doesn't contradict anything i said though [09:37]
asciilifeform: the cost of validation in a single-packet-authenticating protocol where you crunch the numbers at line speed is effectively 0. [09:38]
asciilifeform: and there are no sybils, even as a theoretical item, in a correct gossiptron - every receiver knows exactly who (pubkey-wise) has any business transmitting to it, and rejects packet that is malformed, replayed, or signed with ANY other key, in constant time. [09:39]
phf: that's also what i said [09:39]
phf: but, without proper crypto cost of packet authentication is not 0 [09:40]
asciilifeform: likewise a gossip node ought never to rely on a single entry point. and certainly not on a single ~published~ entry point. [09:40]
asciilifeform: phf: correct. [09:40]
phf: current spec doesn't do that [09:40]
asciilifeform: current spec is imho only worth something as a starting point. [09:41]
asciilifeform: (and i will point out that i started on my concept long before mircea_popescu wrote it.) [09:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, as often happens, had correct idea, but was not aware of the sheer rot of the available building blocks. [09:42]
phf: well, since that's never been published we can't even have meaningful conversations about it :p [09:42]
asciilifeform: phf: the handful of interesting aspects (single-packet friend-or-foe, no tcp) were outlined here. [09:43]
phf: but that's a very minor detail of the spec! [09:43]
asciilifeform: i do not regard it as minor. [09:43]
asciilifeform: nor the 'order of packets does ~not matter' aspect. [09:44]
asciilifeform: (fuck sequence numbers. instead, 'raptor code'.) [09:44]
phf: which layer are we talking here? [09:44]
asciilifeform: bottom. [09:44]
asciilifeform: which - yes - matters, and no, cannot be replaced later. [09:45]
phf: so then it's not even about gossip, it's about "lets have a replacement for tcp" [09:45]
asciilifeform: it is about gossip. [09:45]
asciilifeform: as an only sane possible replacement for tcp. [09:45]
asciilifeform: these are not separable. [09:45]
phf: as a final product -- not, but as a teaching tool? [09:46]
asciilifeform: as a teaching tool, hearts and livers are separable. [09:46]
asciilifeform: in actual practice, not. [09:46]
phf: it's like you're now on the other side in the gabriel_laddel mcclim debate [09:46]
asciilifeform: mno. [09:47]
asciilifeform: i am on same side as i've been since '07 [09:47]
asciilifeform: FOUNDATIONS FIRST [09:47]
asciilifeform: they matter. [09:47]
asciilifeform: and cannot be retro-corrected. [09:47]
phf: well, then you were arguing opposite point in the mcclim conversation [09:47]
asciilifeform: hm? [09:47]
asciilifeform: link ? [09:47]
asciilifeform: i dun even recall a debate. there was gabriel_laddel proposing to build hybrid of bulldog and rhino, 'lisp machine with linux', a mengelian atrocity with no future, because a foundation cannot be corrected any more than one can un-drop a baby. [09:50]
phf: different kind of foundations, mcclim clx backend. he was saying lets replace it wholesale with a framebuffer renderer. i was arguing that it's better to cleanup clx first that'll make framebuffer renderer easier. i misunderstood your position then. i thought you were agreeing, but i suppose your position was that there's no point in replacing x with lesser alternative at all [09:51]
phf: there needs to be a feature in logs where you only render a subset of nicks [09:53]
phf: .. [09:53]
thestringpuller: $s interlisp [09:54]
a111: 9 results for "interlisp", [09:54]
phf: asciilifeform: ok i misundestood your position in mcclim debate [09:56]
phf: (i reread the log) [09:56]
asciilifeform: phf: my published positions re x11 concern the machines ~i presently use~ [10:03]
asciilifeform: i.e. i have 0 interest in 'like x11 but without network pipe' [10:03]
asciilifeform: and regard anyone who advocates it as a procrustes. [10:04]
phf: asciilifeform: we're in agreement on that one [10:04]
asciilifeform: a great many x11 proggies i use run on remote machines. and i have NO intention of partaking in the 'own one computer' horseshit. [10:04]
* asciilifeform bbl, fixing some plumbing. [10:05]
mircea_popescu: jurov now there is : [10:14]
phf: asciilifeform: going back to gossip conversation, my issue is that the gossip you talk about exists exclusively in your head, where's mp got a spec. there are aspects of gossip functionality that can be explored with current spec despite the underlying tcp transport. and like i said broken transport doesn't invalidate the application functionality. it will leak in practice through tcp shenanigans, but that's the nature of this [10:15]
phf: particular transport. never the less when the conversation about current spec comes in you are eager to point out how spec is useless. it's a significant effort to drone you out long enough to actually attempt the implementation, and since in my experience attempting the implementation is a significant step in grokking, i think you repeating the same point over and over again actually lowers overall snr. [10:15]
mircea_popescu: shinohai hook it into some api (preferably not to do tslb bc,stats etc, it can replace gribble here. [10:15]
shinohai: iit already has this mircea_popescu [10:15]
mircea_popescu: demonstrate ? [10:15]
mircea_popescu: win. [10:17]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "The beta-males also wish to be alpha, but for whatever reason they are realistically incapable of it, so they must accept the role of trying to impregnate a female when she is fertile by keeping her away from an alpha-male." interesting perspective. [10:17]
mircea_popescu: shinohai join it plox [10:17]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller where's that from ? [10:17]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: Some chick ranting on Steemit. [10:18]
* thestringpuller super bored in the coal mine today. [10:18]
shinohai: why do you even read that drivel ? [10:19]
shinohai: lol [10:19]
mircea_popescu: well, i imagine because chix [10:19]
shinohai: better chix on trilema [10:19]
shinohai: :D [10:19]
mircea_popescu: shinohai gotta register it -ChanServ- TRS80` is not registered. [10:20]
shinohai: mircea_popescu: it does not have gribble wot [10:20]
mircea_popescu: no i mean with nickserv [10:20]
mircea_popescu: i can't +V it otherwise [10:20]
shinohai: ok gimmie a bit to sign in, i never bothered to register it :/ [10:21]
mircea_popescu: no rush. [10:21]
thestringpuller: "I see the devolution of Western culture upon us because the males have been emasculated with a combination of societal enforcement of child support payments along with the absolute right of the female to divorce taking all the financial support while remaining promiscuous." << actually i have no idea what gender this person is, but makes great points. [10:21]
trinque: shinohai wrote an eval-bot for BASIC? [10:21]
trinque: :D [10:21]
shinohai: EXTENDED colour basic! :D [10:21]
trinque: aw yeah [10:22]
trinque: thestringpuller: that shit about "males *have been* emasculated" is nonsense [10:22]
trinque: exactly the perspective of this elliot guy [10:23]
trinque: damn, what a culturally relevant piece. [10:23]
mircea_popescu: trinque ironically, for a long time in [the very repressive, and otherwise bizarre] austro-hungarian society, little girls thought they were castrated. literally, that ancient trick of "i stole your nose" that amuses 3yos they thought someone took their penis, which is why they don't look like boys. [10:25]
trinque: lol! [10:25]
mircea_popescu: the subjective experience of loss and inadequacy is a huge underground ocean comprising most of the human bejaviour known as art. [10:25]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller a "great point" in the sense of it being repeated a lot online. talk to a divorce lawyer sometime, this "absolute right to divorce" does not work that way in practice. [10:26]
mircea_popescu: for that matter, refer to recent republican record : rando whore divorcing businessman recently got less than 1% of his net worth, and then the judge ridiculed her and cut her loot by 2/3 on apeal. [10:27]
mircea_popescu: this, in the uk, by all accounts a worse shithole than the us. [10:28]
mircea_popescu: including because thousands of little queen's own cunts, aged six to sixteen, openly preferred to be manhandled by pakis rather than commune with english mainstream society. [10:28]
thestringpuller: First: "Eighteen years, eighteen years / She got one of your kids, got you for eighteen years / I know somebody paying child support for one of his kids / His baby mama car and crib is bigger than his" [10:30]
thestringpuller: Which is 90% of niggas who impregnate a gold digger no matter how much money they eventually make. [10:30]
thestringpuller: so: "Holla, "We want prenup! We want prenup!" (Yeah!)" [10:30]
trinque: qed [10:30]
mircea_popescu: << i confess the sufferances of young werther are always in my mind reading him. "why like this and not like that ?" [10:31]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 03:53 phf: he's like an incredibly dull, millenial take on a gothic hero, a modern day maldoror [10:31]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller black society is a bad model for just about anything. [10:31]
thestringpuller: oh i kno. unfortunately for america, it's "pop culture" like the sitcom now. teen pregnancies ain't just for black folk no mo' [10:32]
mircea_popescu: but the LYRICS they put out are unrelated in any case. you know literature generally lies, yes ? [10:32]
mircea_popescu: teen pregnancies were traditionally a white thing. this never ever changed except for the weirdo new york elliots (they prefer to call themselves liberals) who thought it did because they stopped looking briefly. [10:33]
thestringpuller: oh man i've been lied to my whole life! I still have my abstinence pledge too! [10:33]
mircea_popescu: go to alabama, find more 35 yo grandmothers than you can count. [10:33]
phf: mircea_popescu: did werther turn to evil? [10:33]
thestringpuller: "ur at greater risk lil' stringpuller cuz ur black" [10:33]
mircea_popescu: phf define evil [10:34]
mircea_popescu: he wrote faust. [10:34]
phf: as a gothic stance, "if society rejects me, i will now serve the utmost evil!" [10:34]
mircea_popescu: << judge for self. it's tiny, iirc he wrote it in two weeks [10:36]
mircea_popescu: phf that's not what mr elliot said though. [10:37]
mircea_popescu: he has no conception of evil. [10:37]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller check out teh institutional racisms. [10:38]
phf: i think that's the funny bit about roger whatshisname, he gets alienated from society and decides to become a scourge, but him and his definition of malice are so dull, it's like a parody of a gothic character [10:38]
mircea_popescu: "i'm not at greater risk because i'm black, i'm at greater risk because your mother's a whore." [10:38]
mircea_popescu: phf he doesn't even specifically want to become a scourge. he wants to "they should be punished" and "to become a dictator". essentially, like any good liberal/socialist, he JUST WANTS THE STATE TO. [10:39]
mircea_popescu: his mother should arrange him better playdates through whoring out to lucas or whoever's rich and give him money / hire hookers. [10:40]
mircea_popescu: (ironically, this arrangement has more historical exposure than everything that passes for "modern democracy". it's both how the ottoman empire worked as well as how the jews did middle east for five centuries.) [10:41]
mircea_popescu: ie, it is traditional, in the sense of "traditional marriage" traditional. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: phf also, let me register with you my displeasure at you abusing "gothic". it really dun mean what lj thinks it means. [10:44]
phf: i don't think i meant it in lj sense. i was thinking maldoror specifically, he said something like that in the first chapter [10:46]
mircea_popescu: de lautreamont calls himself "a gothich character" ? [10:47]
mircea_popescu: or are you just importing wikitardisms, "gothic genre" et all. [10:48]
phf: i get it [10:49]
mircea_popescu: no i shall insist, because it's fucking annoying. buncha losers. so what, walpole thinks it's ok to tongue in cheek "a gothic novel" ? at the time the word had a meaning, and yes it is a certain forlorn grandiosity et all. [10:50]
mircea_popescu: then the muricans come and take the joke literally. [10:50]
mircea_popescu: Фантастический мир русской романтической повести < there we go! teh russians even agree omg im so impressed. [10:52]
phf: oh ffs, you are right it is a wikipedism, since i was convinced that it was gothic genre in su school also [10:53]
mircea_popescu: keep teh faith pure brother! and guard from teh corruptors! [10:53]
phf: but but i didn't mean gothic straight here, i think that maldoror specifically is already a parody [10:54]
mircea_popescu: i dunno, wasn't the guy from like argentina ? [10:54]
mircea_popescu: they're incapable of parody. [10:54]
phf: yeah he grew up in africa maybe? [10:54]
phf: Uruguay according to wikipedia [10:55]
mircea_popescu: uh. [10:55]
mircea_popescu: this must be one of those cases where "borders changed so historical nationalities changed" [10:55]
mircea_popescu: wasn't he from like 1800 ? what fucking uruguay. [10:56]
phf: he was late 19th century [10:57]
mircea_popescu: ok now i gotta check this [10:59]
phf: well, i know that lautreamont didn't consider maldoror his serious novel (he died young though, so i think it was his only output, plus some poetry) and it was explicitly inspired by .. romantic literature of the time. considering how over the top nihilist it is, i assumed that it was a joke [11:01]
mircea_popescu: published 1868. banda oriental was buenos aires congress 1800-1815, kingdom of brazil 1915-1940, rosas till 49 (and check out the guerra grande btw alf, dude totally beat anglo-french coallition through exhaustion, forced them intio humiliatory peace treaty) and then brazil til 1900 or such [11:01]
mircea_popescu: "he was a romanian writer from vojvodina (a serb land) in the kingdom of hungary, part of the empire" sorta deal, i guess. [11:02]
phf: well, unless you mean that his childhood abroad is what made him, he was still a frenchman born in a consulate, and he went back to Paris when he was young [11:05]
mircea_popescu: hey, you said it! [11:07]
mircea_popescu: anyway, it was a lulzy situation, montevideo was "besieged" for like a decade, they (mostly foreign merchants) ended up calling out a foreign legion, garibaldi showed up... [11:08]
mircea_popescu: pretty good place to grow up i dun dispute. [11:08]
asciilifeform: << nothing i wrote ought to discourage folks from pissing on the electric fence. [11:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 14:15 phf: particular transport. never the less when the conversation about current spec comes in you are eager to point out how spec is useless. it's a significant effort to drone you out long enough to actually attempt the implementation, and since in my experience attempting the implementation is a significant step in grokking, i think you repeating the same point over and over again actually lowers overall snr. [11:19]
asciilifeform: but they ought not to complain when 'my tcp connections are blackholing' or 'someone derived my rsa privkey using known-ciphertext attacks' etc. [11:19]
asciilifeform: ~everyone here, phf, asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, et al, has his own chamber of unreleased horrors. this is right and proper. [11:20]
asciilifeform: *chosen-ciphertext [11:21]
asciilifeform: << afaik this is definitionally true, at least in the zoological world where the terms originated [11:22]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 14:17 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "The beta-males also wish to be alpha, but for whatever reason they are realistically incapable of it, so they must accept the role of trying to impregnate a female when she is fertile by keeping her away from an alpha-male." interesting perspective. [11:22]
mircea_popescu: it is, yes. [11:22]
asciilifeform: << and buffett pays ~0 tax, aha [11:23]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 14:27 mircea_popescu: for that matter, refer to recent republican record : rando whore divorcing businessman recently got less than 1% of his net worth, and then the judge ridiculed her and cut her loot by 2/3 on apeal. [11:23]
asciilifeform: divorced engineers - live on catfood. [11:23]
asciilifeform: in usaschwitz. [11:24]
mircea_popescu: engineers have 0 business getting married. [11:24]
phf: asciilifeform: so far we don't have a complaining problem though [11:24]
asciilifeform: phf: ~no one every does, until it is far too late. [11:24]
asciilifeform: c lang, for instance, was a 'great thing', until it wasn't. [11:24]
asciilifeform: and we are living with pdp arch long past its expiration date. [11:25]
phf: but we don't even have an equivalent of "great thing until it wasn't" produced by tmsr [11:25]
asciilifeform: produced wholesale - no. gpg would probably be the closest to this, to date. [11:25]
asciilifeform: (not produced here, naturally, but reignited from ashes) [11:25]
phf: btw is it possible to chosen-ciphertext attack gpg if it were to sit on the wire? [11:26]
mircea_popescu: yes. [11:27]
asciilifeform: phf: if you're deciphering and putting result (in the 'yes' or 'fail' sense) somewhere enemy can see it - then eys. [11:27]
asciilifeform: *yes [11:27]
phf: well then [11:29]
mircea_popescu: which takes us to the conclusion of the dispute : yeah he's loud and awkward about it but there's genuine problems involved. [11:29]
mircea_popescu: such as this isn't really ready yet. [11:29]
phf: apparently it's even in the spec [11:31]
mircea_popescu: how did it go, "part of groking" or somesuch. i read this recently! [11:32]
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom: [11:32]
asciilifeform: ^ tor org removed ENTIRE board except for the veteran nsa stooge [11:33]
mircea_popescu: lol [11:33]
mircea_popescu: all of them, rapists ? [11:33]
asciilifeform: << more to the point [11:34]
phf: mircea_popescu: it is part of grokking. simply to understand where chose-ciphertext comes in into the whole system, rather than just reddit the conversation. i think we just had a thread about it. i vaguelly suspect the result for an observer is going to be a smug conviction about words [11:36]
mircea_popescu: phf no i know. my whole point was that it works as intended. [11:36]
phf: ah [11:37]
mircea_popescu: ie, you trying to work on it resulted in you being mildly annoyed by what you perceived as out of place comms, which upon actual investigation turned out to be different from what originally seemed to be, and in the process of examining difference important feature of shoreline became illuminated and so on. [11:37]
phf: oh damn it's prof katz, [11:42]
asciilifeform: phf: i reread that piece just a few days ago [11:42]
asciilifeform: it is not entirely related to subj but still interesting. [11:42]
phf: i took cmsc414 with him [11:43]
asciilifeform: i did also, but quit 2wks in, in disgust [11:43]
asciilifeform: ok finally found the thread where mircea_popescu prods me to remember chosen-ciphertext/timing attack, [11:45]
a111: Logged on 2015-11-28 17:01 ascii_field: when folks start to attempt decryption of whatever piece of shit, just for the asking - then yes, acca [11:45]
asciilifeform: and where i go off to find some reference implementation of c-s, and discover, later, that none exists [11:46]
mircea_popescu: aha [11:47]
mircea_popescu: dude check out how smart i used to be in my youth. [11:50]
* mircea_popescu likes reading old logs [11:50]
deedbot: << Trilema - I have no more title ideas. Come back tomorrow. [11:51]
mircea_popescu: aaand in other news, [11:53]
mircea_popescu: for the record, "The departing directors are Meredith Hoban Dunn, Ian Goldberg, Julius Mittenzwei, Rabbi Rob Thomas, Wendy Seltzer and two of Tor’s co-founders, Roger Dingledine and Nick Mathewson. Mr. Dingledine and Mr. Mathewson will remain as leaders of Tor’s technical research and development. [11:55]
mircea_popescu: Their successors include Matt Blaze, a widely known cryptographer and associate professor at the University of Pennsylvania Cindy Cohn, Ms. Steele’s successor as executive director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation Bruce Schneier, a security author and expert Gabriella Coleman, an anthropologist at McGill University who writes about online activism Linus Nordberg, a longtime internet and privacy activist and Megan [11:55]
mircea_popescu: Price, executive director of the Human Rights Data Analysis Group." [11:55]
mircea_popescu: tor 2.0, the wives' club [11:56]
mircea_popescu: or how did they call this in ru ? where lenin's wife went, and all the other ambitious wives followed [11:56]
BingoBoingo: <phf> but we don't even have an equivalent of "great thing until it wasn't" produced by tmsr << BitBet follows, but was produced by TMSR blastocyst [11:57]
mircea_popescu: << well i used the article in which you show an inclination to evanghelism rather than the other one. [11:58]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 04:07 deedbot: << Daniel P. Barron - He has an unclean spirit. [11:58]
mircea_popescu: << so then does your ssh key exporter trust ips ? [12:00]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 12:49 Framedragger: that can be construed as trust, but yeah ok. [12:00]
mircea_popescu: everyting "can be construed as trust" if one has this scalar notion of trust. "here is what body doing X thing reported its IP to be at the time it was doing the X thing" is a very different statement from "i expect to find my house at the corner of cunt street with shit creek" [12:01]
mircea_popescu: << this is correct there's no general solution to sybil problem this is not unrelated to [12:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 13:04 phf: i don't think there's a solution to drowned in sibyl's in general. there's a cost to validating counterparty (which is continuous in case of gossipd, there's no "validate the ip, and then trust it" which is what i mean by "no trust in ip"), which can be exploited by attacker. [12:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-25 03:13 phf: hehe, actually ambush strategy is one of the reasons there's no known solutions for general networks, which must be a bummer for dod [12:03]
mircea_popescu: << and timing attacks, of course. of all numerous kinds - suppose as a banal example that what i want to do is discern whether key X is yours or his. well, a simple solution would be to add a third i know is not involved, send the same thing to all three, and see which of the susperct two behaves like the third. [12:06]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 13:13 phf: etc. you're only dealing with cost of validation. (which could be brought down by having own crypto) [12:06]
mircea_popescu: if - for instance, and do not reduce to merely this - 1 and 3 answer in 200ms and 2 answers in 600ms, i have my answer don't i. [12:06]
deedbot: << Qntra - US Navy Project "Tor" Surrounded By Drama As USG Reasserts Control [12:18]
mircea_popescu: << well, before mp published it, at any rate :) [12:19]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 13:41 asciilifeform: (and i will point out that i started on my concept long before mircea_popescu wrote it.) [12:19]
phf: right timing attacks with gpg as backend i get. i assumed that attacker being able to discover topology is a given (with spec as written) [12:19]
mircea_popescu: how did you figure that ?! [12:20]
mircea_popescu: attacker is very free to discover any topology he likes, much in the way attacker is welcome to decipher otp message to anything he pleases. [12:21]
mircea_popescu: THIS is the important point of security. not "you can't", but "of course you can - which would you prefer" [12:21]
trinque: BingoBoingo: s/actual/actually/ [12:23]
BingoBoingo: ty trinque fxd [12:24]
BingoBoingo: Roundup Xtend 3 is going to be pretty full with all of the week's almost news. [12:27]
asciilifeform: << the general solution is wot + nothing-to-allcomers. [12:29]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 16:03 mircea_popescu: << this is correct there's no general solution to sybil problem this is not unrelated to [12:29]
mircea_popescu: by definition this is a PARTICULAR solution [12:29]
asciilifeform: it is general in the sense where, if you include it, 'sybil' is no longer meaningful concept [12:30]
mircea_popescu: yes, but it cuts a chunk of the domain which is conveniently choseb [12:30]
mircea_popescu: it does promise to be a complete solution for its limited domain, i'll give you that. [12:30]
BingoBoingo: Win [12:31]
asciilifeform: why am i reading a chronicle of some dude cleaning his fridge, BingoBoingo ? [12:31]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: For the exotic salt! And the absurdity of post-post-Modernity! [12:32]
asciilifeform: << timing can be 'ceilinged' and it solves problem. but i am still chewing on the problem of enemy being able to determine who is speaking to whom by deriving the public keys. (this is trivial with rsa, and i've been working on answering the q of whether is is also true for c-s) [12:34]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 16:06 mircea_popescu: << and timing attacks, of course. of all numerous kinds - suppose as a banal example that what i want to do is discern whether key X is yours or his. well, a simple solution would be to add a third i know is not involved, send the same thing to all three, and see which of the susperct two behaves like the third. [12:34]
asciilifeform: *it is [12:34]
mircea_popescu: << what, like a Ln sorta thing ?!?!?! :D [12:34]
asciilifeform: phf: are you changing the oil in the thing as we speak, or wat [12:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ceiling is a dirty hack. there's no practical way to guarantee it solves the problem. [12:35]
mircea_popescu: not that i'm against it. but it does not get classified as solution [12:35]
asciilifeform: solves the differential timing problem strictly. [12:35]
mircea_popescu: how ? [12:35]
mircea_popescu: suppose i can get a process to overrun the time ceiling. [12:35]
asciilifeform: then you catch the author of the code, hang him upside-down, and beat with a long bamboo pole. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: so it solved nothing, just a hack. [12:36]
asciilifeform: it solves if the hands do not grow from the arse. [12:36]
asciilifeform: just like any other proggy. [12:36]
asciilifeform: whether for univac or pc. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: if ceiling is absolute, if the program fails to produce output in interval, it'll have to put out error [12:36]
mircea_popescu: so you pay in error rate. [12:36]
mircea_popescu: and ARE STILL leaking bits, i measure your error rate now. [12:37]
asciilifeform: no errors. [12:37]
asciilifeform: algo takes C cycles. [12:37]
asciilifeform: period. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: so then how exactly is this supposed to work. [12:37]
mircea_popescu: uh. [12:37]
asciilifeform: no uh. [12:37]
asciilifeform: verifying a sig is not rocket surgery. [12:37]
asciilifeform: and can be placed in a limit of C cycles for n-bit rsa, say. [12:37]
asciilifeform: there are no magic cases. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: im starting to think your understanding of practical c is comic-book based. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: you at some point wrote a c program which, when compiled anywhere, resulted in the same COUNT of cpu cycles being used ? [12:38]
asciilifeform: my understanding is based in this exercise having been my profession. [12:38]
mircea_popescu: no fucking way dude, compiler will optimize who knows what [12:38]
mircea_popescu: then processor will cache who knows where [12:38]
mircea_popescu: this is from a different dimension. [12:38]
BingoBoingo: In other congressional cunt snot [12:38]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on embedded cpu, with cache switched off, interrupts off - quite certainly, yes, known cycle count. [12:39]
mircea_popescu: even if written in straight asm, i doubt the time ceiling can be guaranteed in this manner [12:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. so now you're married to hardware ? why even do it software then, make gossipd a chip [12:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my proposal included a device for gateway 'line rate crypto', recall. [12:40]
asciilifeform: but even on pc you can make a hard ceiling. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: you can maybe make a hard ceiling. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: anyway, a device would be neat, but i'm persuaded it won't be the first thing. [12:40]
asciilifeform: cache, incidentally, is controllable at least on amd. [12:40]
mircea_popescu: except the controls aren't controllable. [12:41]
BingoBoingo: "The sheriff’s office said deputies and Pinckneyville police officers received a call at 9:18 a.m. Saturday for reckless driving. Nine minutes later, officers tried to stop a blue 2016 Ford Hatchback, which failed to stop, the sheriff’s office said. An officer had to pull in front of the Ford to block it to force the vehicle to stop." [12:41]
BingoBoingo: bc,stats [12:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which is why you determine a ceiling (longest conceivable interval, assuming every single ram access is a cache miss, etc.) [12:42]
asciilifeform: and calculation ~never~ returns a result prior to interval elapsing. [12:43]
mircea_popescu: i must confess in all discussions of "time ceiling" i assumed clock-based cutoff not this hardcore "my asm runs in subspace" notion. [12:43]
asciilifeform: clock. [12:43]
asciilifeform: time := max(time it EVER took) [12:43]
mircea_popescu: and if you do it in this manner, then yes, it is theoretically possible that i make your program run for longer than the specified interval [12:43]
mircea_popescu: and then what do you do [12:43]
asciilifeform: if this happens, interval is bumped up. [12:44]
asciilifeform: if enemy can make it happen every second, programmer is a tard and ought to be fed to pigs. [12:44]
mircea_popescu: for... all implementations ? like, it happened to you so now gossipd-central updates my gossipd ? [12:44]
mircea_popescu: which is offline ? [12:44]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ceiling is necessarily machine-specific [12:44]
mircea_popescu: i thought the ceiling was the code! [12:44]
asciilifeform: (e.g., i cannot know the rate at which mircea_popescu's reactor control card throws interrupts, or how many cpu core he has to handle them with, etc.) [12:45]
mircea_popescu: are we convinced it's an ugly hack yet or ? [12:45]
asciilifeform: the job of the algo is to perform same count of 'ideal cpu, no cache, all instr take the cycle count printed in the book' instructions per sig verif. [12:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: running safety-critical code on pc ~is~ a hack, and there is no way fully around it except to burn the pc. [12:46]
mircea_popescu: but at least it become evident from this discussion that we'll prolly bundle a performancer, ie something to benchmark key parts of the crypto lib on machines for the user's benefit. [12:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you perchance have the link to the sov typewriter thread ? [12:47]
asciilifeform: where they countered differential power analysis [12:47]
asciilifeform: by making the machine draw same current regardless of what keys are pressed, or if any are [12:47]
mircea_popescu: ? [12:47]
a111: Logged on 2015-11-20 01:49 asciilifeform: like soviet typewriter fp. [12:47]
asciilifeform: nope [12:48]
asciilifeform: that's the 'fingerprint of how it types' thread [12:48]
asciilifeform: sop since 1920s [12:48]
asciilifeform: i was speaking of dpa. [12:48]
mircea_popescu: oh right, we had this with the german museum o' crypto [12:48]
asciilifeform: aha [12:48]
mircea_popescu: iirc even had pics of one [12:48]
mircea_popescu: [12:49]
a111: Logged on 2015-04-02 03:54 asciilifeform: << tries to prevent differential power analysis [12:49]
asciilifeform: THERE we go. [12:49]
asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu . [12:49]
mircea_popescu: had you been spending time trying to dig this up ? [12:49]
asciilifeform: this is instructive example of what i was speaking of earlier. [12:49]
asciilifeform: i just wanted it plugged into this thread, and for some odd reason it did not turn up in my notes. [12:50]
mircea_popescu: took me all of 2 seconds, and i thought "funny how this works, where one man's stumped another man sees not the trouble" [12:50]
asciilifeform: happens rather often here, doesnit. [12:51]
mircea_popescu: apparently [12:51]
asciilifeform: one other point re is that divorcing from 'a node is an ip' entirely, makes this or any variant of this attack considerably more painful. with single-packet quanta, and raptor code (i.e. it does not matter whether mircea_popescu gets all of my packets in order, but only that he gets 10% of the packets i send in next second, in SOME order) his 'node' could consist of 15 machines in 6 continent [12:56]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 16:06 mircea_popescu: << and timing attacks, of course. of all numerous kinds - suppose as a banal example that what i want to do is discern whether key X is yours or his. well, a simple solution would be to add a third i know is not involved, send the same thing to all three, and see which of the susperct two behaves like the third. [12:56]
asciilifeform: s, as can mine, and traffic between them cannot be grouped into 'a conversation between x and y' by third party. [12:56]
asciilifeform: because i can send raptorade split among 25 boxes, to his 15, in random order. [12:56]
asciilifeform: mpex proxies are a reasonably good analogy for this. [12:57]
asciilifeform: enemy's entire infrastructure has a premise baked in, that a 'conversation' is something that happens 'between ip a and b'. [12:58]
asciilifeform: pound the knife in it. [12:58]
asciilifeform: (this also makes for a clean transition to comms over shortwave, hijacked tv satellites, or whatever other twist the future holds where packets come with NO return address) [13:00]
asciilifeform: ^ but we already, i think, did this thread. [13:01]
trinque: well. current mcclim project is run by inclusive shitgnomes. [13:14]
* trinque parts #clim [13:14]
trinque: later tell gabriel_laddel good luck wringing something usable from those people they're idiots. [13:14]
asciilifeform: trinque: got any good atrocity stories ? [13:14]
trinque: nothing even worth the mention. they're the types that cry for their mothers when an aggressive argument is brought. [13:15]
trinque: they banned gabriel_laddel for beating on some fucknut that thought ncurses clim ought to be a thing [13:15]
* asciilifeform pictures a turbovision clim. [13:15]
asciilifeform: i'd actually like such a thing. [13:16]
asciilifeform: for dos. [13:16]
asciilifeform: 80x25 motherfuckers. [13:16]
trinque: anything even remotely graphical would turn into libcacaesque garble, neh? [13:19]
trinque: or dropped [13:20]
trinque: sounds like it turns into the web browser "supports 9999 devices and browser versions" which has never actually been a thing [13:21]
asciilifeform: 'turn into' how ? [13:21]
asciilifeform: via cosmic rayz ? [13:21]
asciilifeform: $s разруха [13:21]
a111: 6 results for "разруха", [13:21]
asciilifeform: ^ see also. [13:21]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no argument re no-ip-and-raptor scheme. the deeper point for me is that the advances happen so quickly and are so significant that it's yet early. [13:21]
trinque: asciilifeform: I have no idea what you're talking about [13:22]
trinque: clim is a graphical UI thinger how does this map to an 80x25 character display [13:22]
asciilifeform: trinque: ever use turbovision proggies (e.g., borland cpp) [13:22]
asciilifeform: they had 'gui' made out of ansi chars. [13:22]
trinque: that's what I said: libcaca [13:23]
trinque: ansi-fier [13:23]
mircea_popescu: lol wait gabriel got banned ? [13:23]
trinque: aha [13:24]
asciilifeform: trinque: i specifically did not mean 'ansifier', as in your caca, or the infamous 'ascii starwars', but purposeful ansi-drawing. [13:24]
trinque: crossed the cultural streams! [13:24]
asciilifeform: << y'know, like-so. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: lmao that poor kid. [13:25]
mircea_popescu: has anyone a spare bedroom/garage/whatever willing to rent to me for a reasoble sum and park gabriel there for a few months ? [13:25]
asciilifeform: iirc he was also studying at stanford ? [13:26]
asciilifeform: don't they give'em barracks to live in? [13:26]
mircea_popescu: i have nfi [13:26]
asciilifeform: then again if he genuinely went broke, was probably booted [13:26]
trinque: maybe 2016 stanford is just this Slack you show up to [13:27]
mircea_popescu: i would expect. [13:27]
asciilifeform: (there are students panhandling for tuition at schools like uni of md, which doesn't cost a fifth of what stanford costs) [13:27]
asciilifeform: i also saw them in chicago [13:27]
asciilifeform: panhandling for art school money. [13:27]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> has anyone a spare bedroom/garage/whatever willing to rent to me for a reasoble sum and park gabriel there for a few months ? << Parking him in my spider hole would be bad for my sobriety [13:27]
asciilifeform: it is now, apparently, a thing. [13:27]
mircea_popescu: i also saw them in every red light district [13:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gurls are not real panhandlers. [13:28]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they are more like your german shepherd. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo tghere is also that. ideally a married fellow, lest we end up making more gabriel laddels. [13:28]
asciilifeform: is ben_vulpes around ? [13:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform panhandlers / butthandlers dichotomy ? [13:29]
asciilifeform: maybe he could fit him in his unabomber cabin. [13:29]
mats: lol [13:29]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha. [13:29]
thestringpuller: i have a motel room, but he'd have to work [13:30]
thestringpuller: and be initiated into a gang... [13:30]
mircea_popescu: you live in a motel ? [13:30]
thestringpuller: no i have a motel on lock...for...things... [13:30]
mircea_popescu: btw, if motel is motel, wtf is a ho-tel. [13:31]
thestringpuller: i can't afford ho-tels on lock. i'm no conrad hilton. [13:31]
asciilifeform: what's 'on lock' ? [13:32]
asciilifeform: is it like lawyer 'on retainer' ? [13:32]
asciilifeform: or is it empty carcass of motel, with a lock on it, and thestringpuller has the key. [13:33]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "lawyer on retainer" [13:33]
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what is the point of such a thing ? [13:34]
trinque: thestringpuller: oh hey, did you want your blog in the rss list? [13:34]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu said...ho bsns. [13:34]
asciilifeform: lolk [13:34]
thestringpuller: trinque: i'd be honored! [13:34]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: but not so much ho bsns, as slave bsns. motel == office. with unpaid interns. think 1980's startup. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform think of it as sewage filter. dunno if you've seen ossessione, but anyway : the street blows by all sorts, maybe some junk you'd like to hold on for a while. [13:36]
mircea_popescu: typical retirement for aged 2nd tier whores. they have just enough connections to make the whole thing work. [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Bitcoin in Wakanda [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - The Coinbase Implosion Timer [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Bitcoin Won’t Hardfork Any Time Soon [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Outer Heaven [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Mass Adoption as a Ponzi Scheme [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Consumers Revolt [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Closing the Loop [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - A Steeming Bubble [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Slockit Enables Scamming [13:37]
deedbot: << Pull Your Own Strings - Metcalfe’s Lie [13:37]
trinque: lol, forgot about asciilifeform's requested max spew increase [13:38]
mircea_popescu: lol [13:38]
phf: asciilifeform: i don't know what that was, i'll have to read the log/code but probably sometime later tonight. fwiw it reconnects [13:41]
phf: it's running on a new irc code, unfortunately pretty close to me going away into desert, but hopefully today tomorrow i'll have time to debug it a bit [13:41]
thestringpuller: phf is going to burning man? [13:42]
phf: basically it's a choice between beta level code that is likely to do something stupid, but not as likely to completely die and stable code that doesn't know how to reconnect dying on wednesday while i'm away [13:43]
phf: thestringpuller: yes [13:44]
mircea_popescu: you lot are gonna take slutpics etc yes ? [13:45]
BingoBoingo: [14:00]
BingoBoingo: "The court ruled that because the law that defines stealing doesn’t include the value of property stolen as an element of the offense, prosecutors couldn’t charge the woman in the case with felony stealing." [14:00]
phf: hmm, there's no exceptions, bot's simply timing out. i wonder if i should put a reconnect throttle. i wouldn't be surprised if the ping is timing out, but a connection can still go through. so bot times out, then reconnects, then one ping goes through, another one times out, so bot disconnects again.. [14:01]
phf: or perhaps digitalocean is just shit [14:05]
asciilifeform: << related. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: digitalocean is shit, for sure. [14:05]
asciilifeform: << in other recent lulz [14:06]
asciilifeform: or 'how shitgnomes suture their wounds' [14:08]
asciilifeform: didjaknow, 'gawker was about phreeeeeeedom' etc. [14:08]
mircea_popescu: lol. gawker is about freedom in the sense putin is about gay sex. [14:09]
asciilifeform: fleadom. [14:11]
thestringpuller: asciilifeform || RAGE_FLAG_1 [15:04]
mircea_popescu: $key PeterL [15:08]
deedbot: [15:08]
danielpbarron: << maybe. I'm about to start up my seasonal thing, which means I move in at work, leaving empty space where I currently reside. But that's a really big maybe seeing as how it's not my place and it's a very risky thing, letting someone move in. That aside, the timeframe is perfect. I will be away for more than a few months even [16:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 17:25 mircea_popescu: has anyone a spare bedroom/garage/whatever willing to rent to me for a reasoble sum and park gabriel there for a few months ? [16:03]
asciilifeform: covertress: lemme guess, you've got a new Veeeery Speeeshul Private Offer!11111 Just For mircea_popescu . [16:58]
trinque: lel [17:03]
covertress: asciilifeform: if i do, you'll be the last to know [18:02]
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Dear America: Pull up your pants, your inadequacy is showing. [18:03]
asciilifeform: covertress: << useful reference. [18:05]
asciilifeform: #4 in particular. [18:05]
BingoBoingo: covertress: Lots of reading to catch up on. [18:06]
asciilifeform: it was written by the fella whose diesel-powered cock you were considering to encompass, covertress . i recommend reading attentively. [18:07]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lovely thing for you - << possibly qntrable. [18:37]
asciilifeform: New, Better hatefact filterz! [18:37]
asciilifeform: 'He said Nextdoor has added “racial profiling” as a category for people who want to flag a conversation as inappropriate and that it has provided additional training on how to recognize toxic conversations about race to the volunteer “neighborhood leads” who are responsible for moderating discussions.' [18:38]
asciilifeform: gold. [18:38]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: That's not news. That's sponsored content. [18:44]
BingoBoingo: How can a serivce have 100 kilousers when it doesn't even have two centiusers? [18:44]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: noshit.jpg. but consider, SOMEONE was audience for this crapolade ! [18:45]
asciilifeform: to SOMEONE, this was supposed to read as an appealing! thing. [18:45]
BingoBoingo: If there were complaints though I'd expect them to actually have increased over the past two weeks as I've taken to walking around with athletic black girl to trigger fat white bitches into hopefully eating less. [18:47]
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: that strat works about as well as lonely white kids watching in triggering crackers to get more hung. [18:48]
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: But this is IRL which haz moar pixels! [18:49]
BingoBoingo: And also pickup truck cuntry [18:49]
pete_dushenski: depends if you're wearing your spectacles or watching spectacles online [18:50]
pete_dushenski: distance matters. [18:50]
pete_dushenski: also, i dun need lessons in pickups! [18:50]
pete_dushenski: i may not have grown up in former su, but the arctic is its own kind of strange parallel universe requiring altogether mesmerising adaptations [18:52]
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: But do you know about lol mart [18:53]
pete_dushenski: speaking of which, cheers to mircea_popescu for the elliot chronicles! i loled many, many times [18:53]
mircea_popescu: shinohai make it answer to !~ plox [18:53]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski aha. and only halfway yet! [18:53]
pete_dushenski: wait seriously ? [18:53]
pete_dushenski: that's... epic [18:54]
mircea_popescu: aha. [18:54]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: best parts of series thus far, imo, are when parallels are drawns to ro of 70s/80s [18:55]
mircea_popescu: << lol alf, you got a way with teh ladies, brings out the icy in 'em! [18:56]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 22:02 covertress: asciilifeform: if i do, you'll be the last to know [18:56]
* asciilifeform is simply not at all fond of ninjashotguns, ain't no seeekrit [18:57]
mircea_popescu: what's one to do with the other ? [18:58]
pete_dushenski: << incidentally, a prenup is entirely unnecessary with the advent of bitcoin. but i guess we can forgive kanye given the age of that particular tune. [18:58]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 14:30 thestringpuller: so: "Holla, "We want prenup! We want prenup!" (Yeah!)" [18:58]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: hm ? i mean the snowforts of giza and whatnot. [18:59]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: in the anglo world, it is 'unnecessary' in the same way bleeding-as-medicine is. i.e. unless you are a lizard, judge will piss on your prenup. [18:59]
mircea_popescu: there is also that. [19:00]
asciilifeform: and the 'child support' thing is wholly separate from alimony and contracts have 0 effect. [19:01]
asciilifeform: (ianal, but the talmudic fiction is that it is 'a right of the child') [19:01]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform technically it's quite sensible as it's deferred inheritance. [19:02]
pete_dushenski: lol [19:02]
mircea_popescu: us is one of those places which piss on testaments. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: ie, barbaric, as per roman law. [19:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: entirely separate thing from that also. [19:02]
asciilifeform: at least on paper. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: nah. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: well, paper or no paper. [19:02]
mircea_popescu: but virtually any half-competent estate/tax attorney will explain to you it's fucking dumb to skimp on child support. [19:03]
asciilifeform: can 'half-competent' estate atty explain why billionaire owes moar of it than pauper ? [19:03]
asciilifeform: the fiction is that it has something to do with what it costs to grow a kid, but the reality does not at all resemble the fiction. [19:04]
asciilifeform: billionaire's sperm costs more to grow into adult, or wat. [19:04]
mircea_popescu: look : the entire profession of estate lawyer is this : "you want to transfer X sugar from A to B with ants eating as little as possible on the way. This is how you time-attack the ants :" [19:04]
pete_dushenski: greenspun, despite appearing to be happily married and fathering and what have you, is ~obsessed~ with alimony / child support / no fault divorce litigation in the states. he openly advocates that young ladies skip 'career' and instead have illegitimate children with lawyers, dentists, school principals, etc. [19:04]
mircea_popescu: ie, sooner or later you will want to transfer some money to these children. do it sooner rather than later, escape some tax burden [19:04]
asciilifeform: what if you do not. [19:04]
asciilifeform: or wish to transfer, CONDITIONALLY [19:04]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski greenspun is also a bitter idiot. [19:04]
asciilifeform: y'know, like sane people [19:05]
mircea_popescu: you still do freebie peanuts. [19:05]
asciilifeform: and to kid, and not to some whore. [19:05]
mircea_popescu: and no, conditionally aka main morte is not like sane people. it's like very insane people. [19:05]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> and to kid, and not to some whore. << Because of Classism. [19:05]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't marry "some whore". [19:05]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: most collectors of child support in usa were never married. [19:05]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: windows 10 (l)user. aha. [19:06]
mircea_popescu: where you got that statistic from lol [19:06]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: marriage is ~extinct in usa. [19:07]
asciilifeform: esp. among the breeding class. [19:07]
asciilifeform: not mega-seekrit. [19:08]
mircea_popescu: whatevs. you don't associate with "some whore". [19:08]
mircea_popescu: we were talking rich people, not rotinculo. [19:08]
asciilifeform: 'rich people' in the usual sense do not have this problem. [19:08]
asciilifeform: they can move money into inaccessible universes. [19:08]
mircea_popescu: sigh. [19:09]
BingoBoingo: More on that classist breeding [19:09]
mircea_popescu: back to the topic : if you're rich, it's probably a bad idea for fiscal reasons to skimp on child support. [19:09]
pete_dushenski: i've heard of this 'blackholing money' thing. was all the rage circa 2007/8 [19:09]
asciilifeform: incidentally in usa, child support is not a cheque to the child's mother [19:09]
asciilifeform: but to usg. [19:09]
asciilifeform: who then passes on ~80% of it. [19:09]
mircea_popescu: depends how you arrange it. dun have to be. [19:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu surely knows this. [19:10]
mircea_popescu: but yes, they do try to eat as much as they can of anything. [19:10]
asciilifeform: if it is arranged via official channels, and is legally termed 'child support' - as in , was sued for - then it is. [19:10]
asciilifeform: if it is a 'silent understanding' in, e.g., amicable divorce - then no usg vig [19:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a whole array of settlements and structured etcs available. moreover, if you keep that money and kid inherits it, usg steals 60% not 20% [19:10]
asciilifeform: but interestingly the right to invoke the usg support mechanism ~cannot be signed away~ in usa. [19:10]
mircea_popescu: generally, socialist state eats out of societal disension. this is not going away. [19:11]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you meritwash the kid and appoint him as director of the usual faux charity/corp/etc. usg gets 0. [19:11]
mircea_popescu: every time you fuck over your fellow man, an usg nigger and libertard jew cackle in glee. [19:11]
asciilifeform: which is what they typically do. [19:11]
asciilifeform: and yes, orlov put this point in book length, when you borrow money from banks instead of your blood clan, jew cackles, and coins ring in usg coffer, etc. [19:12]
asciilifeform: when you buy car from car co. instead of trading for barrel of rum from blood clan, jew cackles. etc. [19:12]
asciilifeform: star topology. [19:12]
mircea_popescu: aha [19:13]
mircea_popescu: well, blood, wot, whatever. [19:13]
mircea_popescu: but the overarching, important point is that "some whore" is by far your best ally, and sharpest instrument. [19:13]
mircea_popescu: stop hating them start training them. [19:13]
asciilifeform: if you run a sufficiently tight imperium in imperio, usg gets to bite its elbows and you can get away with pretty much anything, so long as the wall is tall enough. [19:14]
asciilifeform: just ask the mormons, nyc hassids, etc. [19:14]
asciilifeform: folks who do not fall into one of these clans, end up in the inca's star topology and get raped. [19:14]
pete_dushenski: or less publicised wots [19:15]
asciilifeform: and yes, if woman knows that your cousins hassan and ibrahim will douse her in petrol and light if she takes you to usg divorce court -- she probably won't. [19:15]
asciilifeform: mega-solution for the rest of us. [19:16]
pete_dushenski: what's this 'rest of us' thing ? [19:17]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: strictly the set of folk who dun have a hassan and ibrahim. [19:17]
pete_dushenski: there's no solutions for everyone - not homogeneous group!1 [19:17]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: it's arguably a historically accidental set, this. [19:18]
asciilifeform: solution described works for some folks. [19:18]
asciilifeform: the others - can try to copy, or make own. [19:18]
pete_dushenski: perhaps like making own trojan though - need thousand years, not thousand days [19:19]
asciilifeform: but to copy it you need a reasonably self-contained tribal machine for settling disputes, otherwise devolves to a contest of who can invoke usg library calls to moar effect. [19:19]
asciilifeform: and eventually devolves to the usual 'star topology'. [19:19]
asciilifeform: the jews of old europe understood this, and - best as i know - NEVER invoked the goyish judicial system on whatever pretext, when dispute was wholly internal [19:20]
pete_dushenski: not like persians didn't try to make own hoplites, but inevitably ended up buying existing mercs because short-term it was the only practicable solution [19:21]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: aha. no 'get' no leaving. [19:21]
pete_dushenski: << that's one way to use an old stadium (in osaka). cost-effective at least. /me wonders about property values in the interior [19:29]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with your view it's that it's so damned adversarial. [20:21]
mircea_popescu: you seriously imagine fear of retribution keeps my harem together ?! [20:22]
shinohai: well shit [20:25]
shinohai: !~ticker [20:25]
jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "~ticker" is not a valid command. [20:25]
shinohai: hrm [20:25]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's harem is typical american marriahe the way my battlestation is typical amer pc. [20:25]
mircea_popescu: but the point remains. [20:26]
mircea_popescu: your computer still runs on electricity, not on molasses. [20:26]
lobbes: << lol, lobbesbot has had this for a few months btw. It is supybot pretty much, so all the favorites are there: later, seen, calc, etc [20:54]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 14:14 mircea_popescu: jurov now there is : [20:54]
lobbes: but now it is there twice :P [20:54]
lobbes: of course, if I finally got to adding search on the logs, maybe it'd be easier to find this out :/ [20:55]
mircea_popescu: and a help page hehe. [21:04]
shinohai: ahh nice [21:05]
lobbes: help page noted. I'll put it first in the queue [21:12]
mircea_popescu: cool. [21:23]
ben_vulpes: << ahahahaha teh blasphemiez! [22:03]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-27 00:25 jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "~ticker" is not a valid command. [22:03]
* shinohai did it for the glory of Baal of course [22:04]
ben_vulpes: sail hatin' [22:05]
ben_vulpes: << epic butthurt [22:05]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 22:02 covertress: asciilifeform: if i do, you'll be the last to know [22:05]
asciilifeform: << oh hey. [22:27]
mircea_popescu: hello mr hawk lol [22:41]
deedbot: << Trilema - The Story of Elliot Rodger. By Elliot Rodger. Adnotated. Part Sex. [22:42]
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, [22:50]
mircea_popescu: if all this guy's guides/howtos/whatever are like that, it's no wonder his clientele has issues. [22:51]
Category: Logs
Comments feed : RSS 2.0. Leave your own comment below, or send a trackback.
Add your cents! »
    If this is your first comment, it will wait to be approved. This usually takes a few hours. Subsequent comments are not delayed.