Forum logs for 18 Dec 2017
| davout: | http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-17-dec-2017#2378084 <<< ye olde "you got lucky" | [01:11] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 00:33 indiancandy1: u didnt predict this | [01:11] |
| ben_vulpes: | http://archive.is/p526V << certain elements of the pravda are funny the classic socialistoid "assuming the sale" in "The truth has been rendered here irrelevant" in regards to the /defamation case/, also the hilarious verdict of ~"you'd have to be /uniquely stupid/ to not understand that you're a public figure by virtue of just fucking look at yourself" | [02:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [02:33] |
| ben_vulpes: | and now for something completely different: http://archive.is/IEa6u "I have always been fascinated, and a little troubled, by the concept of paper money, or fiat currency. If I think about it too long it makes my head hurt and I have an urge to sell all of my tech stocks and buy gold." | [02:35] |
| ben_vulpes: | gods bless, his webpage loads in half a second | [02:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | selling "tech" stocks ie, worthless web-venture paper is a good move in any case. | [02:39] |
| ben_vulpes: | i thought it was cute! | [02:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [02:58] |
| BingoBoingo: | <asciilifeform> afaik pediwikism dun count as 'publication' << Eh, but the so called deans prolly count pediwiki links as citations in their minds if not on paper | [08:04] |
| BingoBoingo: | <asciilifeform> they like to have both tracks running, iirc << AHA, this and rock music appears to be what shaped most of the younger local's english language ability. Ingles subtitulo Espanol, Not a very functional thing, thankfully only a flash of stink eye pushes them pack into spanish practice mode. | [08:12] |
| BingoBoingo: | <mircea_popescu> amusingly, it msises the very obvious failure of the "chinese room" nonsense (yes, searle mc dumbnuts, you don't speak chinese NOW but if you followed the recipe you WOULD, by the time you'd stop making errors, actually speak chinese. duh. eternal error of the childish mind, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amircea+dynamic+static etc ), but moving on to more interesting things : << AHA the poor hostel staff | [08:20] |
| BingoBoingo: | watching the gringo's language learning in real time. | [08:20] |
| BingoBoingo: | !~ticker --market all | [08:22] |
| jhvh1: | BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18910.01, vol: 14251.02644525 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18736.0, vol: 61903.85854873 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18909.0, vol: 3672.105393 | Volume-weighted last average: 18775.0230839 | [08:22] |
| BingoBoingo: | Gracias por sus Crashing! | [08:23] |
| shinohai: | DIOS MIO CRASHING!!!!! | [08:25] |
| BingoBoingo: | Senor dios, mas crashing por favor. | [08:25] |
| * BingoBoingo | baking a blog post, he caminado mucho este Domingo pasado | [08:34] |
| deedbot: | http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/18/a-second-sunday-for-the-midwestern-rube/ << Bingo Blog - A Second Sunday For the Midwestern Rube | [09:09] |
| BingoBoingo: | ^ Bonus observation: The drive to grow my own tomatoes, not as strong here. Pretty delicious tomatoes rather available. | [09:10] |
| BingoBoingo: | !~bcstats | [09:28] |
| jhvh1: | BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 499975 | Current Difficulty: 1.873105475221E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 501983 | Next Difficulty In: 2008 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None | [09:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo how come you're still in hotels anyway ? | [10:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | mircea_popescu: Not hotels, the hostel. | [10:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | share bedroom with 8 persons | [10:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | *7 persons, I am the 8th | [10:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | why not rent ? | [10:47] |
| BingoBoingo: | Language exposure, plan is renting an apartment in February when vacation season is a least winding down. | [10:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | what's the current arrangement cost you per month ? | [10:49] |
| BingoBoingo: | ~550 USD, studio apartment rents here are roughly ~600 USD monthly | [10:50] |
| BingoBoingo: | Arrangement comes with bed, locker, common areas occupied by rotating cast of new people | [10:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah, makes sense. | [10:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | *thumbsup* | [10:52] |
| BingoBoingo: | Also buys time for meeting roommate capable persons | [10:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | yea | [10:52] |
| BingoBoingo: | Renting an apartment now would mean either gambling on roomates for the long haul or undertaking an exercise which introduces wasted hours of solitude not exposed to languages | [10:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | i agreed like five lines above! | [10:54] |
| BingoBoingo: | Yeah, but reiterating the problem for log readers. The hotel/hostel confusion seems to be a persistent one in conversations. | [10:55] |
| BingoBoingo: | Especially with the locals | [10:55] |
| BingoBoingo: | Anyways, if this were a hotel and I were paying hotel prices... the minor for hostel structural and chinche issues would not be so easily dismissed, and there would be wrath | [10:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | Anyways, now that business is baking I'll be touring the datacenter tomorrow. | [10:59] |
| BingoBoingo: | Next Friday one of the other enterprises is throwing a "Welcome to Uruguay" welcome asado for the gringo, which I should be much more awake for than the end of the year celebration asado they threw at the cowork which coincided with the day of my arrival. | [11:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | nice. | [11:05] |
| BingoBoingo: | The locals are a very welcoming people. | [11:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | samba si... | [11:06] |
| BingoBoingo: | Argentina's slogan is the lie "Argentina no es un pais pobre", Montevideo's is the truth "Montevideo es muy tranquilo" | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | ya twas not bad. | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | aaand in today's ancient trilemas, http://trilema.com/2013/in-which-life-moves-on/ | [11:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | esthlos you know how to self-voice, right ? | [11:19] |
| BingoBoingo: | Ah, that great announcement where the leverage had moved | [11:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | looking retrospectively, i suspect the great lure of "tech" such that "boys turn to tech, girls turn to poundcake" is in fact that if well done, tech seems to be the closest thing one has to fountain of eternal youth. | [11:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | through the following mechanism : "Has it only been four years ?!?!?!?" asks the boy. "I think I aged less than that's worth", ie, "good use of my time", ie... a derivative sort of youth elixir. | [11:26] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i am hard pressed to think of any kind of tradesman ( outside of, i suppose, walmart gulag ) who has ~less~ to show for his years, than the typical tech d00d | [11:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | used to be money, back when "thus britons for lucre fly over the main". but these days... "Women have never had money, continue to have no money, and never will have any money. The only reason women can own property in this day and age is because you cant own property in this day and age." | [11:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform tech ~well done~. | [11:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's an aspiration not an avocation. | [11:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | which is why "surprised by wealth" exists as a concept. ers wasn't being creative, he was being... you know, manly. filling a pre-existing hole. | [11:28] |
| BingoBoingo: | Ah, most d00ds aspiring to tech end up in alt walmart baggery | [11:30] |
| asciilifeform: | esr. ( for fyootoor log searchers pulling their hair out ) | [11:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | a sorry. | [11:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | trinque can you run <g id="graph0" class="graph" transform="scale(1 1) rotate(0) translate(4 15840.7)"> on a dataset composed of log link references / nick references ? | [11:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | or more properly speaking i suppose, can you v that thing so phf can then not plop into his ever-growing lisp visualizer because it's not written in lisp and tee hee ? | [11:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | !!up sofiababy | [11:44] |
| deedbot: | sofiababy voiced for 30 minutes. | [11:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | this log needs lengthening! | [11:45] |
| sofiababy: | damn i thought evryone would be sleeping | [11:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | do your thing sofiababy | [11:45] |
| sofiababy: | im fixing the entry | [11:45] |
| sofiababy: | i hate beging for voice | [11:45] |
| sofiababy: | i want to be in with the cool kids | [11:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | but...why ? | [11:46] |
| sofiababy: | why not | [11:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's a point. | [11:46] |
| sofiababy: | i like it here | [11:46] |
| sofiababy: | and you welcome me with open arms so | [11:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | "Eventually if you keep buying you either run out of money or run out of looking like a sucker." ahaha. | [11:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | god i love reading the old shit. | [11:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~ticker market --all | [11:49] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a valid (1 more message) | [11:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | gah | [11:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc (18775.0230839/15)**(1/6) | [11:50] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: (18775.0230839/15)**(1/6) = 3.282828562886639 | [11:50] |
| BingoBoingo: | !~ticker --market all | [11:50] |
| jhvh1: | BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18670.99, vol: 15013.73187916 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18501.0, vol: 63074.68145741 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18675.0, vol: 3774.33123335 | Volume-weighted last average: 18540.198758 | [11:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's a thousand dollars with an annualized growth rate of 328% eh. NOT BAD | [11:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | talk about "running out of looking like a sucker". | [11:50] |
| BingoBoingo: | Lol, poor gangsta roll. A victim of "When?" | [11:56] |
| BingoBoingo: | Still sweeter is watching the crashing. So much crashing. | [11:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753005 << speaking of rums, apparently india actually makes some pretty decent ones | [12:14] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 01:52 cazalla: i bought a bottle of that reserva, was nice, i still prefer bundy rum (although the one i like can't be bought now) | [12:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | hung out with restaurant owner guy, got a sampler. old monk seemed best | [12:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753038 <<->> "Men, on the other hand, attach penalties to marriage, depriving women of property, of the franchise, of the free use of their limbs, of that ancient symbol of immortality, the right to make oneself at home in the house of God by taking off the hat, of everything that he can force Woman to dispense with without compelling himself to dispense with her. All in vain. Woman must mar | [12:16] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 02:01 cazalla: sofiababy, no, stopped watching twitch after it was inundated with gamer girl camwhores, but i read they do well sparking up league of legends, chatting to virgins and getting them to donate to their patreon | [12:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | ry because the race must perish without her travail: if the risk of death and the certainty of pain, danger, and unutterable discomforts cannot deter her, slavery and swaddled ankles will not. And yet we assume that the force that carries women through all these perils and hardships, stops abashed before the primnesses of our behavior for young ladies." | [12:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | let it be stated that the deep root of the whole "prostitution is unfeminist" current stems from about the same place as "it's in poor taste to sell them lost in the desert water at extortionate prices". | [12:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | which is why the whole "men will do anything to get some" social fiction, with it's attendant "surprises" of the thoroughly fabricated sort, "i can't believe far far away somewhere in like japan they don't". gotta mask the bitter truth that ~woman~ will do anything to get some. literal anything. | [12:19] |
| BingoBoingo: | Aha | [12:20] |
| BingoBoingo: | !!up sofiababy | [12:20] |
| deedbot: | sofiababy voiced for 30 minutes. | [12:20] |
| sofiababy: | im streaming and reading this | [12:20] |
| sofiababy: | i saw something about prostittion | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol are you becoming a republican ho ? | [12:20] |
| sofiababy: | dude evry one is a prostitute to some degree | [12:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | i can see it. | [12:21] |
| sofiababy: | evry one is selling time one way or another | [12:21] |
| sofiababy: | i think i am actually | [12:21] |
| sofiababy: | lol is that weird | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | sofiababy hey, do you have voice on your cam thing or just video ? can you talk to the virgins ? | [12:21] |
| sofiababy: | both | [12:21] |
| sofiababy: | nothing wrong with being pure | [12:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | o hey, so here's a deal, read out the log to them. i'll pay you say a bitcent for an hour. | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | start say 10 minutes ago. | [12:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | and drop your link so people can check it out lol. | [12:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | give that lh0 or what was it a run for its money lol. | [12:23] |
| sofiababy: | okay | [12:23] |
| sofiababy: | lets do it | [12:23] |
| sofiababy: | what do i read? | [12:24] |
| sofiababy: | cant say anything racist | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753439 << start there and read down. | [12:24] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 16:07 BingoBoingo: Argentina's slogan is the lie "Argentina no es un pais pobre", Montevideo's is the truth "Montevideo es muy tranquilo" | [12:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | sofiababy link to your camshow, what is it ? | [12:25] |
| sofiababy: | www.myfreecams.com/#sexyxshanti | [12:25] |
| sofiababy: | does it work | [12:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | o hey, it does actually. | [12:26] |
| sofiababy: | hi mp | [12:26] |
| sofiababy: | im wavin at u | [12:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm, must be a recorded thing. | [12:27] |
| sofiababy: | there is a delay | [12:28] |
| sofiababy: | there servers aint that good | [12:28] |
| sofiababy: | its nnot fox news | [12:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | ah | [12:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright, so go for it. | [12:29] |
| sofiababy: | what am i doing | [12:30] |
| sofiababy: | director MP | [12:30] |
| sofiababy: | lol | [12:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | go to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753439 which is a webpage like any other webpage and start reading down from there. | [12:31] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 16:07 BingoBoingo: Argentina's slogan is the lie "Argentina no es un pais pobre", Montevideo's is the truth "Montevideo es muy tranquilo" | [12:31] |
| sofiababy: | ahaha ppl are gona think | [12:33] |
| sofiababy: | im on drsg | [12:33] |
| sofiababy: | drugs | [12:33] |
| sofiababy: | loooooool | [12:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | who knows. maybe they think you're the only smart camho on mfc. | [12:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | or else yeah, drugs. | [12:33] |
| sofiababy: | this guys r stooopid | [12:33] |
| sofiababy: | they wil think im on drugs | [12:33] |
| ben_vulpes: | who cares what they think? | [12:33] |
| sofiababy: | i read the conversatio | [12:34] |
| sofiababy: | i cant do the spanish | [12:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | especially if they're dumb. | [12:34] |
| sofiababy: | i duno how to pronouse | [12:34] |
| sofiababy: | pronounc | [12:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | sofiababy do your best. you also don't know how to fuck, but you do your best and it works out. | [12:34] |
| sofiababy: | im not sexual | [12:35] |
| sofiababy: | im a nerd | [12:35] |
| sofiababy: | deep down | [12:35] |
| sofiababy: | just like them | [12:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [12:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | everyone's a nerd deep down. way the fuck easier than being a miner deep down. | [12:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | also, better healthy and wealthy than sick and poor. | [12:35] |
| sofiababy: | omg | [12:37] |
| sofiababy: | really? | [12:37] |
| sofiababy: | im a woman | [12:37] |
| sofiababy: | i cant read this | [12:37] |
| sofiababy: | ur mean | [12:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | the quote is actually from bernard shaw. | [12:38] |
| asciilifeform: | i r disappoint, i thought this was a jaguar , that mircea_popescu taught to use a keyboard | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | that meanie bernard shaw... | [12:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | who, other than being a major fascist supporter, was also a guy reputedly so smart, some woman wrote to him to propose having babies on the theory she's so pretty. | [12:38] |
| sofiababy: | seriosly europes most powerfu leader | [12:38] |
| sofiababy: | is a woman | [12:38] |
| diana_coman: | power-fu indeed | [12:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | who, laura antonelli ? | [12:38] |
| sofiababy: | mama merkel | [12:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | menopausal items are eminently not women | [12:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | merkel is an ex-woman. | [12:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform and your proof to the contrary being... ? | [12:39] |
| sofiababy: | ex woman or not | [12:39] |
| sofiababy: | shes stil a woman | [12:39] |
| sofiababy: | one hell of a woman | [12:39] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: nuffin but the critter's own word!11 | [12:40] |
| sofiababy: | bought her biography | [12:40] |
| sofiababy: | i havent read it yet | [12:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform dun believe everything you read! sofiababy how do you reason ? | [12:40] |
| asciilifeform: | i'ma bbl. | [12:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, anyone actually can be bothered to check teh cam ? is she actyually logreading ? | [12:41] |
| sofiababy: | i did | [12:41] |
| sofiababy: | and i stopped | [12:41] |
| sofiababy: | when i read | [12:41] |
| sofiababy: | women wil never own property | [12:41] |
| sofiababy: | and no1 on mfc acknowledgges anything unless its tits | [12:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh! that's now shaw, that's... what was his name ? | [12:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | dick masterson | [12:42] |
| sofiababy: | these guys are different | [12:42] |
| sofiababy: | like honestly | [12:42] |
| sofiababy: | i didnt know such humans existed | [12:42] |
| sofiababy: | apathetic horny fuckers | [12:42] |
| ben_vulpes: | no reading is happening | [12:42] |
| ben_vulpes: | for five seconds, an interesting thing happened on mfc | [12:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | heh | [12:42] |
| sofiababy: | leo should be proud | [12:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | let us reiterate that ancient http://trilema.com/2017/the-practical-costs-of-hallucinated-freedom/ | [12:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | nothing interesting can happen on mfc because mfc is composed of a) the people there who b) operate under the delusion they may make choices. | [12:43] |
| ben_vulpes: | dude a bitcent an hour | [12:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | the result is a matter of necessity in those circumstances. | [12:44] |
| ben_vulpes: | sofiababy: what the hell is wrong with you | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | i know | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | but | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | no buuts actually | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | lol | [12:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | lmao. | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | i can continue | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | i just got hurt | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | with that quote | [12:44] |
| sofiababy: | sorry | [12:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | move into the pain not away from it. pain is good for you. | [12:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | or as the orthodox tradition says, "durerea-i ziditoare" | [12:45] |
| sofiababy: | are you orthodox | [12:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | no, i'm just cultivated. | [12:45] |
| sofiababy: | is the romanian calender same as greek | [12:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | ~approx, yea. | [12:45] |
| sofiababy: | so easter isnt the same | [12:46] |
| sofiababy: | its a month latter i think | [12:46] |
| ben_vulpes: | dude this is epic, girl would rather talk about calendar offsets than earn a bitcent an hour reading the log | [12:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | 2018 ro easter will be on april 8th | [12:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | ben_vulpes this is why artificial intelligence will never be able to compete with the genuine article. | [12:47] |
| sofiababy: | i didnt refuse | [12:47] |
| sofiababy: | fyi | [12:47] |
| trinque: | girl will faff about trying to make sure they see all sides of her until someone grabs hold. | [12:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | ^ | [12:47] |
| sofiababy: | lol | [12:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | faff. i didn't even know that was a word. | [12:48] |
| trinque: | texanism with either a little girl or queer connotation | [12:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | apparently brits also have it. | [12:48] |
| trinque: | hm neat | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | faff means | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | well over here like people use it in context like | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | faff about | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | faffin about | [12:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's what he said lol. | [12:49] |
| ben_vulpes: | doing anything but that which needs doing. | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | like taking time to do something | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | yea | [12:49] |
| sofiababy: | there | [12:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | ben_vulpes you don't understand how self-determination works!!1 | [12:49] |
| ben_vulpes: | mircea_popescu: oh i understand this, i also understand how fist fits in cunt doesn't mean i'm not entertained from time to time with the concrete item | [12:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [12:50] |
| ben_vulpes: | holy fuckadoodle, imagine getting paid a bitcent an hour to do your six months | [12:50] |
| ben_vulpes: | what a fuckin thing. | [12:50] |
| ben_vulpes: | she would literally rather dance for tips | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | and as bonus lulz, we'll never know whether i would have actually paid the whole length or not. | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is the true meaning of being wealthy, when your wealth stays wealthy for longer than the world stays active. they run out of puff afore you run out of dosh | [12:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | and in other lulz, i myself wasn't making a current bitcent an hour until sometime after 2010. ie, quite recently. | [12:53] |
| shinohai: | Tenth of a bitcent per hour fine with me per hour | [13:16] |
| shinohai: | lol | [13:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753256 << no. the naive bare life (bios as opposed to zoon, see http://trilema.com/2014/it-all-depends-on-what-power-means/#selection-109.0-106.2 ) approach is that sunken costs matter. this feeds right into shaw above. whereas any gambler worth two shits knows you... fold when you know it can't win, not when you judge you can afford to lose "your" share of the pot. | [13:23] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 03:04 asciilifeform: napoleon's syndrome? | [13:23] |
| BingoBoingo: | <sofiababy> i duno how to pronouse << It's purely phonetic, Except when it's not. | [13:57] |
| BingoBoingo: | <shinohai> Tenth of a bitcent per hour fine with me per hour << Perhaps the baroness can? | [14:11] |
| BingoBoingo: | Y ahora tengo una otra cita por manana en la noche | [14:17] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s negative block reward | [14:33] |
| a111: | 0 results for "negative block reward", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=negative%20block%20reward | [14:33] |
| asciilifeform: | hmm, could've sworn we had a thread... | [14:33] |
| phf: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753455 << hm? | [14:35] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 16:34 mircea_popescu: or more properly speaking i suppose, can you v that thing so phf can then not plop into his ever-growing lisp visualizer because it's not written in lisp and tee hee ? | [14:35] |
| phf: | !!key PeterL | [15:36] |
| deedbot: | http://wot.deedbot.org/F595258CD9F1FDBDEFAE5093B4E2E0DCACB63D25.asc | [15:36] |
| phf: | asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch3_shifts in press order you can see all the mentioned sigs included | [15:39] |
| asciilifeform: | neato, ty phf ! | [15:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | phf you know, that pretty graphing item | [15:58] |
| ben_vulpes: | https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/dec/18/report-obama-protected-hezbollah-drug-ring-to-avoi/ | [16:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | in other news : the mpi m-r implementation has a fixed witness at 2. | [16:52] |
| diana_coman: | gnupg m-r implementation rather | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyone with a good reason why magic number should stay ? | [16:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | seems a gratuitous (but not readily computable) degradation of the 4^-k outer bound. | [16:56] |
| * mircea_popescu | waves at esthlos | [17:10] |
| * esthlos | waves back | [17:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc 4^-12 | [17:13] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: 4^-12 = 5.9604644775390625E-8 | [17:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | !~calc 4^-16 | [17:13] |
| jhvh1: | mircea_popescu: 4^-16 = 2.3283064365386963E-10 | [17:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman should prolly add a comment in there pointing out to people who are making keys for serious use that 1e-10 is really not nearly good enough. | [17:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | or rather 4.6e-10 as the case may be, since you need two. | [17:15] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, I think this might be worth made into a knob in the code explicitly | [17:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is so. | [17:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | and yes i'm aware damgard extensions and whatnot, but not impressed. | [17:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | incidentally, anyone wanna implement agrawal-kayal-saxena ? esthlos ? apeloyee ? | [17:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | some crandall fellow supposedly "implemented" it, but apparently out of unpublishable sticks of gum arabic. | [17:23] |
| esthlos: | mircea_popescu: if I can. what is it? | [17:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | you know, three indian kids got a godel prize a decade ago for the first ever primality test that's deterministic, polynomial and unconditional | [17:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | AND general. | [17:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | given n > 2 and a coprime to n, n is prime only if (x+a)^n mod-congruent x^n+a (mod n) | [17:25] |
| esthlos: | well what do you know, richard crandall | [17:25] |
| esthlos: | i was acquainted with him | [17:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | actually, lenstra supposedly made it actually run. initially it was very high order polynomial. | [17:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | but nobody actually publishes anything anymore. | [17:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | actually it's possible bernstein had a variant too. | [17:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | come to think of it. | [17:27] |
| diana_coman: | esthlos, "primes is in p" is the original paper describing aks by agrawal, kayal and saxena, you'll find it easily | [17:27] |
| esthlos: | okay this is cool, will implement | [17:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | esthlos ada. see ffa for a basis | [17:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | iirc it has berett reductions already etc | [17:29] |
| esthlos: | diana_coman: thanks | [17:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://yves.gallot.pagesperso-orange.fr/src/aks_gmp.html << supposed c++ impl though i have nfi who gallot fellow is. | [17:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://yves.gallot.pagesperso-orange.fr/arbregen.html << tho apparently there's a genealogy tree going back to 1600s, so how bad can it be. | [17:32] |
| esthlos: | mircea_popescu: is there a preference on how I compute totient? | [17:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | do i get a closed set to pick amongst ? | [17:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | !#s totient | [17:33] |
| a111: | 7 results for "totient", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=totient | [17:33] |
| esthlos: | I don't have anything specific in mind | [17:36] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753680 << it's worthlessly slow | [17:37] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 22:20 mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone wanna implement agrawal-kayal-saxena ? esthlos ? apeloyee ? | [17:37] |
| asciilifeform: | as in, century per key. | [17:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | esthlos look through the various FFA items as pasted by asciilifeform first to get an idea what the item is like. so you don't have to wait till he's finished publishing it all | [17:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform tell you what, m-r as found in gpg, with its "12" that are really 11 witnesses is worthlessly useless. | [17:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | at this juncture having options is the right move. let user decide. | [17:38] |
| asciilifeform: | option that dun terminate before user dies of old age, dun help much | [17:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's not THAT bad. | [17:38] |
| asciilifeform: | matter of fact, it is. unless there's been a serious advance that i slept through | [17:38] |
| asciilifeform: | m-r with programmable iteration knob is however worth making imho | [17:39] |
| asciilifeform: | ( we even had thread, not long ago ) | [17:39] |
| asciilifeform: | ( where asciilifeform observed that, for serious battlefield key, a month of pre-use m-r, plus a box doing it continuously ~4evah , is not excessive ) | [17:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | rather than being all negative!!!, got a review copy of ffa somewhere to pass to esthlos ? | [17:40] |
| asciilifeform: | fed with fg naturally. | [17:40] |
| asciilifeform: | it's on my www, what | [17:40] |
| asciilifeform: | and on phf's | [17:41] |
| * mircea_popescu | looks | [17:41] |
| asciilifeform: | or mircea_popescu was asking for other-than-ch1-3 ? | [17:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes, whole item | [17:41] |
| asciilifeform: | this is tricky business because i changed a great many things, ch1-3 is in many ways incompatible with the old item | [17:42] |
| asciilifeform: | and no i have no intention of dropping it out of schedule | [17:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | what i mean by "review copy" last complete item | [17:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | so he has something to work on, rather than wait for tutorial completion, is the logic | [17:42] |
| asciilifeform: | there was a version given to mod6 , should be in the log somewhere , that had all of the basic arithmetic (+,-,*,/) | [17:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | did it have barett reduction ? | [17:42] |
| asciilifeform: | nope, and the complete barrett is unreleased , it is not up to releasable standard yet | [17:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | alright. | [17:43] |
| asciilifeform: | i very muchly recommend that all n00bs, regardless of skill, follow the www tutorial | [17:43] |
| asciilifeform: | material will make 9000x moarsense | [17:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | esthlos i'd love for you to be able to jump straight into this however there's some groundwork to be laid. look into the V system, because ideally you'd be presenting the finished item as a patch on diana's eucrypt lib. and asciilifeform is working on and publishing a final FFA which is what we intend to use here. | [17:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | so do that first then. | [17:44] |
| diana_coman: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753708 <- in gpg it's "5" which is 4, lol | [17:45] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 22:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tell you what, m-r as found in gpg, with its "12" that are really 11 witnesses is worthlessly useless. | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | that said, a gmp version pushed out as a patch on mpi might not be entirely without merit. | [17:45] |
| esthlos: | mircea_popescu: alright. I've been thinking of writing a v implementation following http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman right right. 12 was our update. | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | esthlos not a bad idea. what's your language ? | [17:45] |
| esthlos: | mircea_popescu: right now I'm most comfortable in scheme, but I want to change that to common lisp | [17:46] |
| esthlos: | so probably CL | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | afaik no scheme vtron extant. | [17:46] |
| esthlos: | well that works then | [17:46] |
| asciilifeform: | ben_vulpes had something resembling a CL one | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes. if you want you cal look up tje log for ben_vulpes ' item or else write your own in cl and compare after. | [17:47] |
| * asciilifeform | recommends that n00bz write own, from scratch, without looking even at mine | [17:47] |
| esthlos: | mmk | [17:49] |
| asciilifeform: | btw if esthlos ( or anyone else, anywhere ) knows how to aks on 2048b primes in nongeological time, i'll happily port their algo to ffa, even if original is in cobol | [17:50] |
| asciilifeform: | (err, candidate-primes) | [17:51] |
| asciilifeform: | even something with, e.g., 6 month, run time, can be useful. ( esp. if parallelizable ) | [17:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform for my curiosity, run the above linked c++ gmp item | [17:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is not THAT slow. | [17:53] |
| esthlos: | noob question: why not use a fast nondeterministic algo and sieve on the results? | [17:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | esthlos we're already using m-r. | [17:53] |
| esthlos: | ah | [17:53] |
| asciilifeform: | esthlos: point is , there exists a guaranteed-correct algo. using it, supposing it were practical, is The One Right Thing | [17:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | this'd be a special alternate because we're very unhappy with the fact that a) "everonye" (=usg) uses m-r and b) evidently lies about the strength assumptions. | [17:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | and so we'd like to have an alternative, if for no reason then just to have it. | [17:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform at this point there's little doubt in my mind that >0 of the items cracked by phuctor were bona-fide keys, composite slipped past the 4+1 round m-r. | [17:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | it'd be worth it at this point to see which of the composite "primes" have the whole set of primes under say 29 as strong liars. | [17:55] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the only 1 that might fit the shape of this item is the german 'research key' one | [17:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | why ? | [17:56] |
| asciilifeform: | the only 1 with factors sized somewhere near half the bitness of the modulus, other than the khadeer key ( which had P == nextprime(Q) , which dun fit the bill ) | [17:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | the factors don't matter. | [17:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | a composite that passes a low round m-r can be composite of >2 factors np. | [17:57] |
| asciilifeform: | y'know , this hypothesis is testable | [17:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is what i say : reconstruct the original two "primes" of which at least one wasn't then see which of such items have in fact low primes as strong liars. | [17:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | it is testable, yes. | [17:58] |
| asciilifeform: | and i'ma test it as soon as dulap-III is up ( btw crate of raid cards just came in last hour ) | [17:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | o hey. | [17:58] |
| asciilifeform: | walk the known prime-divisors and see how many pass gpg-1.4.10's litmus | [17:58] |
| * asciilifeform | currently suspects that none will, but nobody suspects worth a damn until -- found | [17:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | so the recipe would be, "for every composite N, sort the factors so as to obtain two 2048 bit chunks then check whether 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17 are strong liars for the item. | [17:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | iirc there was a "study" showing how "it is enough to test these" for whatever size. | [18:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | (for the record : it is a fact that there exist infinite composites so that their SMALLEST witness is at least ln (n) ^ 1/(3 * ln (ln(ln(n))). yet "cryptography community" keeps doing this small witness bs.) | [18:02] |
| asciilifeform: | place of 'cryptographic community' is the lime pit. | [18:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | for the record, if n = 2 ^ 2048, that limit is ~238.728599954. | [18:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie gpg is wasting its time with "oh, let's see if 2 is a witness". | [18:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | and i have a good mind to mandate eucrypt impl of m-r actually uses 2^8 ie 256 as minimum. | [18:05] |
| * asciilifeform | loox at http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753697 ... | [18:05] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 22:30 mircea_popescu: http://yves.gallot.pagesperso-orange.fr/src/aks_gmp.html << supposed c++ impl though i have nfi who gallot fellow is. | [18:05] |
| diana_coman: | I suspect the 2 is basically the...potato soup of gpg: cheapest available | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | "worked well for export keys hurr durr snort snort" | [18:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform importantly, re the test above : not the ~factors~ must be tested, but the actual composite p or q, as reconstructed from the factors. | [18:08] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: consider how phuctor decided which numbers are 'completely' phuctored , to begin with | [18:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | bernstein smooth parts of integers empowered sieve popped a factor ? | [18:09] |
| asciilifeform: | say i have 2 2048b pieces on the table. | [18:09] |
| asciilifeform: | i'm left with... m-4 | [18:10] |
| asciilifeform: | grrrr | [18:10] |
| asciilifeform: | m-r | [18:10] |
| asciilifeform: | to say if 'there's moar' or not. | [18:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't think i follow. | [18:10] |
| asciilifeform: | phuctor finds a divisor. if it is toobig for sieving, i'm left with m-r, when asking whether it is a ~prime~ divisor. | [18:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha... | [18:11] |
| asciilifeform: | so from that pov i have no access to the original p,q that gpg may have generated, for any of the keys | [18:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | consider something like | [18:12] |
| asciilifeform: | only to a numbers that are factors of 2 or moar moduli. and they dun come with any certificate of primality, except for the smallest 'dust' ones | [18:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | !#s E668E8C9185CD163C976FB378648E3842D4774D508DB7C3B13C43DB30E92C064 | [18:12] |
| a111: | 2 results for "E668E8C9185CD163C976FB378648E3842D4774D508DB7C3B13C43DB30E92C064", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=E668E8C9185CD163C976FB378648E3842D4774D508DB7C3B13C43DB30E92C064 | [18:12] |
| asciilifeform: | https://archive.is/EJSOD | [18:13] |
| asciilifeform: | good example. | [18:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [18:13] |
| asciilifeform: | and the bottom item was reported as a factor on account of each, taken separately, having passed gmp's m-r after the 1st was found. | [18:14] |
| asciilifeform: | makes sense ? | [18:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes but the first ? | [18:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | was it ever checked whether it would appear prime to koch-gpg ? | [18:15] |
| asciilifeform: | the first passed m-r . it's the only primality test currently in battlefield use. | [18:15] |
| asciilifeform: | not specifically was tested only using gmp's m-r. really oughta do both. | [18:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | which is my point. | [18:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | or rather, part of my point. | [18:16] |
| asciilifeform: | but it isn't clear to me why weaker koch test would have different answer than stronger m-r | [18:16] |
| asciilifeform: | thinkaboutit, stronger m-r found both to be prime | [18:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | the ~other~ part of it is : suppose (i don't have example ready, but constructively) there's a N that popped into factors f1... fm. | [18:16] |
| asciilifeform: | that's what it'd actually look like, if this animal exists | [18:17] |
| asciilifeform: | rather than '2 fat factors' | [18:17] |
| asciilifeform: | it'd be one of the shit-dust ones | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | each of these factors will have a bitness. admitting none of them has a bitness = 2048, they can be arranged into a p and a q so that each of these has a bitness of 2048 | [18:17] |
| asciilifeform: | and we don't know how the shit-dust comes back together to form what gpg thought was primes | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | the thus reconstructed p and q should be tested for whether they indeed have no true witness of compositeness as low as gpg tests. | [18:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform well, we pray. and we try. | [18:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's a finite set of factors, they work together into fixed bitnesses only so many ways. | [18:18] |
| asciilifeform: | btw that french aks is geological. n==11701 has been running for 10+ minutes, and is on ~9600 author's code indicates that answer appears at iteration 1000000007. that'd be 723 days on this box. | [18:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, suppose the factors f1... f8 have bitnesses of 1,1,2,2,3,3,2042,2042. so then we try f1f3f5f7 and f2f4f6f8. and we also try f2f3f5f7 f1f4f6f8. and so on. | [18:19] |
| asciilifeform: | for a 14 BIT NUMBER | [18:19] |
| asciilifeform: | and the order is log(n^6) | [18:20] |
| asciilifeform: | if somebody made a practical aks, it is a deep, dark seekrit from asciilifeform . | [18:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | ugh. | [18:21] |
| asciilifeform: | i was hoping to find that i made a mistake, but the numberz check out. | [18:21] |
| asciilifeform: | i'ma let sumbodyelse alsotry, to make sure. | [18:21] |
| asciilifeform: | supposing anyone can be aroused to do it ( g++ aks.cpp -lgmp -o aks ) | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | the order IS log^6, which was the great progress, originally it was log^12 | [18:21] |
| asciilifeform: | it was aha | [18:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | but the base factor can't be this fucking humongous ffs, it's just (x+a)^n vs x^n+a. | [18:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | (which, i confess, striked/strikes me as a seductively good idea) | [18:24] |
| asciilifeform: | this is one of those things that really begs for dedicated iron | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | it does at that! | [18:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | incidentally...if this is so fucking slow... guess who just found a new pow. | [18:25] |
| asciilifeform: | ( though even there , you'd shed 1 or 2 from the exponent , not earth-shaking necessarily ) | [18:25] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: humour me, how wouldja turn this into a pow | [18:25] |
| asciilifeform: | i'ma allears | [18:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | suppose your block hashes to value n. | [18:26] |
| asciilifeform: | ok.. | [18:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | let's take a = every other bit of n. to mine this block, you must produce an x so that x is twice the bitsize of n, and (x+a)^n is mod congruent to x^n + a (mod n) | [18:27] |
| asciilifeform: | so miner waltzed his nonce until it's a composite and trivial | [18:29] |
| asciilifeform: | what's to stop him | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | primeness doesn't enter into this, we're just leveraging that apparently modexp is megaexpensive. | [18:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, more expensive than plain shaing | [18:29] |
| asciilifeform: | sha2 (and for that matter other hashes) weren't built to be expensive, quite opposite | [18:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | exactly. | [18:30] |
| asciilifeform: | in applications where people want 'expensive', they ask for 1e6 or whatever iterated hashes | [18:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | but the contention here is that picking something like modexp is a better choice than just piling on hashes. | [18:31] |
| asciilifeform: | it's not necessarily good choice, in that it is very amenable to parallelization | [18:31] |
| asciilifeform: | ( multiplication parallelizes 3 ways , with karatsuba, and N ways with toom-cook ) | [18:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | not sure that is a bad thing. but yes, evidently large topic for discussion. | [18:32] |
| asciilifeform: | modexp in turn can be cut into B mod-mults, where B is bitness | [18:32] |
| asciilifeform: | it's a bad thing if you want 'asic-resistant' or even fpga-resistant | [18:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's not clear at this stage what you want. | [18:32] |
| asciilifeform: | i was about to say | [18:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | but it's certainly there. | [18:32] |
| asciilifeform: | after 5yr of thinking about it daily, asciilifeform still has nfi what even ought to be asked of a pow !! | [18:33] |
| asciilifeform: | mining intrinsically, i suspect, suxx, and fiddling with pow won't make any dent in it | [18:33] |
| asciilifeform: | ( sucks for the reason, incidentally, that mircea_popescu already fingered , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-02#1745524 and elsewhere ) | [18:34] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-02 16:22 mircea_popescu: anwyay, revisiting an ancient conversation re http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=mining+is+a+bug : i have to thoroughly concede this point to asciilifeform . the model is as follows : if a) a PoW system exists in which b) a participating entity can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others then it NECESSARILY follow that entity can, and therefore it ALSO follows that it eventually will c) impose further con | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah | [18:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | in other lulz : 32 hectares of land across the strip from the flamingo cost under 1mn in 1962. | [18:50] |
| asciilifeform: | that's, what, 100m in modern printolade neh | [18:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | i have no idea what the item would even cost today. billions, prolly. | [18:55] |
| asciilifeform: | this is in cr ? | [18:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | the strip is in las vegas | [18:55] |
| asciilifeform: | aaaaa | [18:56] |
| asciilifeform: | lol | [18:56] |
| * asciilifeform | was scratchinghead, puzzled | [18:56] |
| asciilifeform: | upstack in re 'mining is a bug' , asciilifeform has a theoretical pill, potentially interesting , but will chew on it for some weeks -- there's gotta be a catch | [18:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | maybe say $1k / sqm or so. 32 hectares = 320mn ? | [18:58] |
| asciilifeform: | ( it is specifically a pill against 'can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others' aspect ) | [18:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | should be interesting. | [18:59] |
| asciilifeform: | possibly. | [18:59] |
| asciilifeform: | it uses an algo from an ancient mircea_popescu thread | [19:00] |
| asciilifeform: | ( 'pow in tx not in block' ) | [19:00] |
| asciilifeform: | but i'ma bbl: meat. | [19:00] |
| BingoBoingo: | !~ticker --market all | [20:14] |
| jhvh1: | BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18893.0, vol: 13502.62107269 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18804.0, vol: 45094.04913747 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18765.2, vol: 3090.86572362 | Volume-weighted last average: 18821.5368925 | [20:14] |
| shinohai: | yay no more crumble #maga http://archive.is/kmHhk | [20:36] |
| shinohai: | But I always like my apple kyklos cake a bit crumbly | [20:37] |
| * asciilifeform | wonders whether he gotta commit another warcrime in the spirit of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619719 , or to simply lay the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753876 item out in the l0gz, reasonably compactly. | [21:08] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-02-28 05:40 asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (CRACKPOTTERY) Notes re: one possible "TRB-I". | [21:08] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 23:58 asciilifeform: ( it is specifically a pill against 'can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others' aspect ) | [21:08] |
| phf: | asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway) | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | which is this, phf | [21:08] |
| phf: | diff | [21:08] |
| asciilifeform: | what does 'exclude' do | [21:09] |
| phf: | right, realized too late :p | [21:09] |
| asciilifeform: | no srsly what's it do | [21:09] |
| phf: | there's a couple of places where regex is used. exclude filters files by name, (so --exclude=.*c will skip those files by regex), exclude lines filters lines (obviously is not compatible with v), and there's also a function grabber, it's a little piece of code that ensures that, say, c function headers or certain pattern matching lines are in the hunk context | [21:10] |
| asciilifeform: | why wouldja do this, phf ? | [21:11] |
| asciilifeform: | i've never done it | [21:11] |
| asciilifeform: | i have scripts that ruthlessly thermonuke the kind of rubbish that doesn't get diffed, instead. | [21:11] |
| phf: | http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-20#1485519 | [21:11] |
| a111: | Logged on 2016-06-20 04:23 phf: which is handy if you're using something else to produce the patch, or if you need to use a non-trivial diff command. for example i sometimes need to exclude files from diffing, so a command might look like diff -x foo -x bar -x qux -ruN a b | grep -v '^Binary files ' | vdiff > foo.vpatch | [21:11] |
| asciilifeform: | ( e.g., gprclean actually cleans ffa . ) | [21:11] |
| asciilifeform: | that's what cleaning's for | [21:12] |
| phf: | but i don't go into the details there either | [21:12] |
| phf: | right | [21:12] |
| asciilifeform: | dunwanna diff it -- dun put it where things are gettin'diffed | [21:12] |
| phf: | hey, less work for me™ | [21:12] |
| * phf | has been listening to The Dubliners, has a skewed perspective on work at the moment | [21:13] |
| * phf | does a little jig | [21:14] |
| asciilifeform: | '...there's whiskey in the jar...' | [21:14] |
| phf: | :D | [21:14] |
| phf: | apropos out yesterday's mini thread about whisky. the only good kind of whisky comes in the jar | [21:15] |
| * asciilifeform | has yet to taste this mythical item, 'good whisky' | [21:15] |
| * asciilifeform | sings silently '...Говорили мне ребята: "Виски ты не пей", А я как только виски тресну, Так мне чудится фигня...' | [21:16] |
| asciilifeform: | ( sores -- http://shaov.kulichki.com/texts/volshebstvo.htm ) | [21:16] |
| asciilifeform: | upstack re pow item : i'ma leave an observation for mircea_popescu ( and others, but he's prolly the one to crack this nut properly ) . consider how in classical bitcoin , pow is used for 2 entirely different and quite orthogonal items : initialcoindistribution, and rewindprotection (i.e. preventing history-rewriting) . it's a bulldog-rhinoceros. so q is, suppose that coin distribution somehow took place at t==0. do you still need po | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | w for antireplay ? can you picture a scheme where... it doesn't. | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | suppose the bulldog and rhinoceros were cut apart. | [21:22] |
| asciilifeform: | *antirewind | [21:23] |
| asciilifeform: | this gedankenexperiment should be seen in light of the earlier 'all tx have absolute position and make references to absolutepositional outputs' item from earlier 'trbi' thread. | [21:24] |
| asciilifeform: | and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item. | [21:33] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i.e. when you craft such a tx, you're doing it against a specific picture of whole blockchain, from t==0 to your highestknownblock ) | [21:34] |
| asciilifeform: | prolly i'm doomed to describe a complete algo nao. so consider : no pow. a block is 2^20 bytes . it can hold a certain # of fixed-length tx ( i will not repeat earlier scheme, with the luby etc., imho it was adequate. ) | [21:38] |
| asciilifeform: | however there is no block reward. anyone can proclaim a block, so long as he can find one or more valid tx that haven't sat down in a block yet. the 'pow value' of the block , for the purpose of longest-chain, however, consists of the ~total coins moved~ in the tx-en that sat down in it. | [21:39] |
| asciilifeform: | to prevent 1 d00d with fat wallet from monopolizing all future blocks, would have to count 'mass' only for resolving forks of length 1 . (i.e. 1 block, however 'heavy', cannot 'outweigh' 2. ) | [21:41] |
| asciilifeform: | i modelled this item on paper, and did not find any obvious place in which to put a crowbar and make the thing break apart in the 'rewrite history' sense. | [21:42] |
| asciilifeform: | but entirely possible that it was in my blind spot. so i'ma leave this here, and make moar detailed sketch if mircea_popescu asks , later. | [21:43] |
| asciilifeform: | ( to complete the picture above : no pow, but a tx ~does~ carry a lubyism, e.g. three lengths of 64bits , each of these the xor of 3 64bit substrings of the world-state, hashtronically selected based ~strictly on the tx payload's hash~ -- nothing to waltz, yer stuck with so-and-so lubyism obligation to fulfill by virtue of yer inputs being such-an-such and yer outputs such-an-such ) | [21:47] |
| phf: | first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312 | [21:51] |
| asciilifeform: | oh hey | [21:52] |
| asciilifeform: | neato, phf | [21:52] |
| asciilifeform: | to round out the crackpottery : i've described what is more or less a working variant of ye olde warcrime, the multiverse coin | [21:52] |
| asciilifeform: | ( each candidate-tx is irreversibly bound to its author's picture-at-the-time of the complete world history ) | [21:53] |
| asciilifeform: | phf: lemme guess, it was by nuking autoconf | [21:53] |
| asciilifeform: | ( it was perhaps 80% of how asciilifeform cut koch-mpi , by similar proportion ) | [21:54] |
| phf: | it's not even the entirety of autoconf, just things that are left un-included after fixing all the "missing file" errors from diff.c | [21:55] |
| asciilifeform: | kill autoconf. it has no place in this world. | [21:56] |
| asciilifeform: | it Must Die. | [21:56] |
| phf: | well, autoconf is not just scripts. it's also compatibility shims, which is a bit tricky in case of a differ, since, unlike mpi, it has a lot of file system interaction code, that might or might not be portable. anyway, we'll see | [21:57] |
| asciilifeform: | i suspect that if you ditch autoconf, and snip out ALL #ifdef crapola (esp. and inclusive of uniturdism and 'localism' ) you will end up with a sysv-sized util | [21:57] |
| phf: | obviously i'm not actually building it with autoconf | [21:57] |
| phf: | -l --paginate | [22:22] |
| phf: | Pass the output through `pr' to paginate it. | [22:22] |
| phf: | wtf. | [22:22] |
| asciilifeform: | lol feepingcreaturism | [22:33] |
| phf: | not to mention a fucking palette parser | [22:35] |
| phf: | trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ? | [22:37] |
| phf: | there's a concrete answer to that question! | [22:39] |
| asciilifeform: | dafuq? | [22:42] |
| phf: | well, if you baked in color support, your code periodically enables a color mode, but doesn't immediately disable it. instead colors spit out as the execution unfolds. but if you catch an interrupt, you end up with a borked terminal. hence fucking complicated ass signal machinery to ensure that color gets restored on hup or suspend | [22:44] |
| asciilifeform: | ffs | [22:47] |
| asciilifeform: | kill it with fire. | [22:48] |
| * trinque | noticing extremely fucky behavior around sending transactions with trb over the last few days at least. | [23:08] |
| trinque: | mats pointed out to me that all trb nodes he can see appeared to be consistently 50 blocks or more behind. | [23:08] |
| trinque: | obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes. | [23:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753889 << get rid of regex | [23:10] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-19 02:08 phf: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway) | [23:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753920 < obviously. | [23:12] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-19 02:33 asciilifeform: and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item. | [23:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a non-mining coin, ie, where all coins are created at t0. | [23:13] |
| asciilifeform: | yea but would described algo wurk. | [23:13] |
| asciilifeform: | ... or can unwind. | [23:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | can unwind. | [23:14] |
| asciilifeform: | lesse how ? | [23:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | consider. how does your system discard forks ? | [23:14] |
| asciilifeform: | when you craft a tx, it presupposes 1 particular history. | [23:15] |
| asciilifeform: | and is invalid outside of it. | [23:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes. but when you encounter two different chains, how do you choose one ? | [23:15] |
| asciilifeform: | in the proposed algo -- the block, from all the alternatives you have, with greatest summed coinmovement | [23:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | so if at t0 the chain is C, and at t1 large owners decide they don't like C and retroactively create C' ? | [23:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | how can non-usg node correctly identify C' as retcon ? | [23:17] |
| asciilifeform: | why would anyone build on their alt-world tho | [23:17] |
| asciilifeform: | when baking tx | [23:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | this question means the scheme's dead. | [23:17] |
| asciilifeform: | i dungetit | [23:17] |
| mircea_popescu: | by the time you ask "why would anyone choose the wrong color bits" you've moved from protocol to promise. | [23:18] |
| asciilifeform: | i still dungetit | [23:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, which part ? | [23:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << bless you. | [23:18] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312 | [23:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753946 << good god. | [23:20] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-19 03:37 phf: trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ? | [23:20] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: your picture seems to be a variant of the 'isolated node' argument. except nao with the sides reversed | [23:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform somethinglike that. | [23:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | the problem with "no time", see ? it's that now... no time! | [23:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's the iffy thing about blocks. not so much the "work", but the metronome. | [23:21] |
| asciilifeform: | so i'ma borrow mircea_popescu's orig argument, 'dont ever be isolatednode' | [23:21] |
| asciilifeform: | then no crowbar. | [23:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | this alt-granpa pistol is no replacement for the actual item | [23:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't want a different flavour of footshooting musket. | [23:21] |
| asciilifeform: | it couldn't, even if entirely flawless, it dun distribute coin | [23:22] |
| asciilifeform: | q is more re fundamentals. suppose you had another, yet-unspecified means to distributecoin. | [23:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753954 << i have up to date nodes both trb and legacy. but the phenomena described is recurrent since at least 18 months ago. | [23:23] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-19 04:09 trinque: obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes. | [23:23] |
| * asciilifeform | trying very different tack re 'trbi' than in prev thread, instead of massive warcrime , series of small gedankenexperiment. | [23:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform in which vein : nothing wrong in principle with the idea (of all-coins-given-at-t0) but you will have to solve the problem of time. | [23:24] |
| asciilifeform: | trinque: 'zoolag' still 30k behind | [23:24] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: 'don't be in a cave' is not solution ? | [23:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | to the problem of time ? | [23:25] |
| asciilifeform: | aha | [23:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | no it's not a solution. it reduces to "bring your own missing parts of this bitcoin" | [23:25] |
| trinque: | I'm simply unable to transmit transactions at times they show up in no other mempool. | [23:25] |
| trinque: | this along with the transparently obvious sybil logs I posted the other day | [23:26] |
| trinque: | anyhow, investigation continues. | [23:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | trinque the only known pill is keeping large pile of secretly connected nodes, measuring who mothballs you and why, sending assassins over, | [23:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's a whole game of dumbass. | [23:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | the sad fact of bitcoin relay network is that it actually forces people who aren't to nevertheless act like idiots. | [23:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | "because someone somewhere might" | [23:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | this sad is dissected in logs last someone mentioned this. which might've been me, last year ish | [23:27] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: it isn't cleat to me that wot isn't the troo solution to time. e.g. 'i'ma follow the multiverse mircea_popescu picks, and fuck everyone' | [23:27] |
| asciilifeform: | *clear to | [23:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform possibly. | [23:27] |
| trinque: | yep, my reaction has been to invest in node-deployment tooling, more nodes, idiot IP blocking and all that | [23:27] |
| phf: | http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << 24132 | [23:27] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312 | [23:27] |
| trinque: | wd | [23:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform but this just makes us a larger mp, you understand ? girl going "hail master, i am yours to command" does not resolve the problem. | [23:28] |
| asciilifeform: | there may not ultimately be another solution. | [23:28] |
| asciilifeform: | chinese liquishit is no future. | [23:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | maybe not. | [23:29] |
| asciilifeform: | at least i formalized how. | [23:29] |
| asciilifeform: | ( possibly it was already obvious, how. ) | [23:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, one approach might be to a) create a scalar worldfunction and b) force reference to the discrete value of it. which is what pow ineptly tries to do. | [23:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | but i suspect as implemented it is blind peculiarization of more general concept that needs unearthing. | [23:30] |
| asciilifeform: | i gave an example scalar, 'coins moved but over 1 block delta'. it is by no means the only possible. | [23:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | (in the discussion re http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ the item involved is a more elaborate... world function.) | [23:31] |
| asciilifeform: | notice that item in this thread makes no reference to how-hashed or other technominutiae . | [23:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform coins moved is a phenomenology function. worldfunction must discuss states. | [23:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | indeed. no reason to. | [23:31] |
| asciilifeform: | i can rven | [23:32] |
| asciilifeform: | errr | [23:32] |
| asciilifeform: | grr | [23:32] |
| asciilifeform: | even picture various worldfuncts coexisting. genuine multiversecoin. | [23:32] |
| asciilifeform: | the ants, their own, cockroaches, their own, men -- their own. | [23:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | hm ? | [23:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | sure. | [23:34] |
| asciilifeform: | and yes mircea_popescu this item is an attempt at the unified theory, rather than proposal for concrete cointron. | [23:34] |
| asciilifeform: | very rough attempt. | [23:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | this is entirely new field, in fact, as http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753861 etc : we don't even really understand what worldfunction si supposed to be. | [23:34] |
| a111: | Logged on 2017-12-18 23:33 asciilifeform: after 5yr of thinking about it daily, asciilifeform still has nfi what even ought to be asked of a pow !! | [23:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | but it'd seem that in point of fact what is needed is a reliable description of all factual existence. | [23:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | doesn't have to be complete being the only grace. | [23:35] |
| asciilifeform: | pow where having found the prev champ is of ~any~ advantage, is ipso facto retarded tho. | [23:35] |
| asciilifeform: | as mircea_popescu already observed. | [23:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | maybe "any" is too strong. but if one can take decision based on it, there's the evident problem | [23:36] |
| asciilifeform: | and currently i'm of the mind that pow is an idiot substitute for wot. | [23:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | well... call it a bootstrap | [23:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | in all factuality we wouldn't have wot were there not pow. | [23:37] |
| asciilifeform: | i duncare what obummer and gavin have to say re the worldstate, | [23:37] |
| asciilifeform: | perfectly happy to replace pow with my wot. | [23:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform up to a point. if they came up with say riemann falsification , you'd care. | [23:37] |
| asciilifeform: | they haven't tho. | [23:38] |
| asciilifeform: | and won't. | [23:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | nor wioll. | [23:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | right. | [23:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway. "discretized worldfunction", which is ~what pow+blockchain is, has obvious advantages. | [23:44] |
| asciilifeform: | and disadvantages. | [23:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | i don't mean here what rando-idiot thinks those are. i mean the actual article, | [23:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | i clearly remember gushing in the log many years ago, but can't seem to find. anyway : difficulty worked. | [23:45] |
| asciilifeform: | the asic-building tourney is intrinsically cartelizing. | [23:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | it scaled remarkably well, much better than expected really and much better than expectable. this exceedingly close coupling between model and reality isn't, to my knowledge, seen before in human industry. | [23:46] |
| asciilifeform: | scaled all the way into becoming a chinese national property. | [23:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | nevermind that. | [23:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | the fact that blocktimes today are SO DAMNED CLOSE to the range intended 8 years ago in spite of diff going up 1e20 is unmatched. | [23:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | not even seen in nature, such things. | [23:48] |
| asciilifeform: | how could they move ? it's a pretty hard thermostat | [23:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | the point is that it worked. | [23:48] |
| asciilifeform: | it was obvious that it'd work, in this sense, on day1 | [23:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | you do not encounter a phenomena where you go from 1 to 1e20 smoothly. | [23:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | it was not obvious to me. | [23:49] |
| asciilifeform: | i can picture that it'd impress folx who experienced 'typical' technology being webolade, ducttape, perl. the way austrian bidet impressed asciilifeform's grandfather. | [23:55] |
| asciilifeform: | an sram, sah, | [23:56] |
| asciilifeform: | say, | [23:56] |
| asciilifeform: | by that token evenmoaf | [23:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | name item, man-made or natural, that presents this property. | [23:56] |
| asciilifeform: | rmoar impressive | [23:56] |
| asciilifeform: | your cpu. | [23:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | what about my cpu ? | [23:56] |
| asciilifeform: | worx same from 1hz to 1e9. | [23:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | cpu transistor count is what, 1e10 ? | [23:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | that is NOWHERE CLOSE. | [23:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | and if you're proposing 2017 vintage intel cpu works anything like a diode you're in for a world of hurt. | [23:58] |
| asciilifeform: | dunno re intel's turd, but plenty of static (i.e. clocks from dc to max) on embedded market. | [23:59] |
| asciilifeform: | the cpld in fg, for instance. | [23:59] |
Category: Logs
