Forum logs for 10 Aug 2017

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
mircea_popescu: << example. [00:00]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it did not look like this, rsa would not even be useful [00:01]
asciilifeform: thinkaboitit [00:01]
mircea_popescu: this is true. [00:01]
mircea_popescu: i am now very suspicious you can't ever have a good solution, in the sense that if you find it... you'll have found a fine reason not to need it anymore. [00:02]
asciilifeform: depends what means 'good solution' [00:02]
asciilifeform: ain't looking for the rsa pill here. but for nonretarded variant of montgomery's algo [00:02]
asciilifeform: (i.e. always-worstcase) [00:03]
mircea_popescu: yeah, well... [00:04]
mircea_popescu: no, see. if you could have a not-always-worstcase fixtime algo you would have in fact found pill. [00:04]
asciilifeform: we want the opposite [00:04]
asciilifeform: always-worstcase modexp [00:05]
mircea_popescu: hm ? [00:05]
asciilifeform: that's what constanttime is [00:05]
asciilifeform: alwaysworstcase. [00:05]
mircea_popescu: but you have that lol, squaring [00:05]
asciilifeform: elementarily. [00:05]
asciilifeform: aha. we have one. [00:05]
asciilifeform: want -- faster. [00:05]
asciilifeform: recall, constanttime karatsuba did not (afaik) publicly exist before i posted it... [00:06]
asciilifeform: need same thing here again. [00:06]
mircea_popescu: yes but... [00:06]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, here's an idea : [00:09]
asciilifeform: hm? [00:10]
mircea_popescu: folding ? [00:10]
asciilifeform: wassat [00:11]
mircea_popescu: heh apparently injuns got this first. like so : [00:16]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ^ [00:16]
asciilifeform: found it back in may [00:17]
asciilifeform: it dun go [00:17]
asciilifeform: branches. [00:17]
asciilifeform: also uses the same idiotic sliding window thing that makes gpg2 radiate seekritbranchingly for kilometres [00:18]
asciilifeform: ( because table lookups are nonconstanttime on just about any iron you can get your hands on. caches. ) [00:19]
mircea_popescu: remarkably compact, at that. [00:19]
asciilifeform: nogood tho. because cannot be expressed as FINITE, KNOWN (for particular ffawidth) sequence of good ol'fashioned word-arithmetic ops. [00:20]
mircea_popescu: basically, you precompute conveniently chosen powers of 2, and then you get rid of most of the product larger than [00:20]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is the sliding window in gpg2. [00:20]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but you don't have to use the crap parts. the idea itself is sound, further reduces any montgomery reduction., [00:21]
asciilifeform: it needs branching omfg [00:21]
asciilifeform: not unrollable. [00:21]
asciilifeform: therefore rubbish. [00:21]
mircea_popescu: mgh [00:22]
asciilifeform: makes the rest of ffa an exercise in complete pointlessness, to use anything of the kind. [00:22]
asciilifeform: this weekend i'ma see just how sad is key genning with the saddest but proper algo , quoted earlier. [00:23]
asciilifeform: ( exp-via-squaring, mod after each squaring ) [00:23]
asciilifeform: it'll be pretty sad, because squaring gives a doublewide bitness. [00:24]
asciilifeform: and division is O(N^2). [00:24]
mircea_popescu: moreover, doesn't that leak exponent bits ? :D [00:24]
asciilifeform: how? [00:24]
asciilifeform: division dun branch on seekrit [00:24]
asciilifeform: at least mine doesn't [00:24]
mircea_popescu: well, you do the whole polynomioal thing right ? if exponent is 1101 you do 3 out of 4 squares [00:24]
asciilifeform: (it subtracts EVERY time, then muxes ) [00:24]
asciilifeform: nope. [00:24]
asciilifeform: 4 [00:24]
asciilifeform: read mine. [00:24]
* mircea_popescu goes and reads. [00:25]
asciilifeform: we dun branch!!! [00:25]
asciilifeform: we do 4 motherfucking squares, and 4 subtracts [00:25]
asciilifeform: the output is muxed via constanttimemuxer [00:25]
asciilifeform: ( so sometimes 'not used', but the discarding takes provably same time as nondiscarding ) [00:25]
mircea_popescu: heh [00:25]
mircea_popescu: nazi. [00:25]
asciilifeform: aha, very [00:25]
mircea_popescu: well, at least it was painless to check the code, all of 30 seconda [00:26]
asciilifeform: aha. sorta whole point of this adventure [00:26]
asciilifeform: to have mircea_popescu et al go 'wtf this only took 30s to read' [00:26]
asciilifeform: can you picture, rsa that actually makes sense... [00:26]
mircea_popescu: no wtf there. the wtf is more in the line of "check him out, he wants to use a computer without the if key" [00:26]
asciilifeform: it's called algebra, lol [00:27]
mircea_popescu: lol [00:27]
asciilifeform: 'computer without if' [00:27]
asciilifeform: aka closed form [00:27]
asciilifeform: speeking of which... [00:28]
* asciilifeform bbl, meat [00:28]
* mircea_popescu thinks "well... what if you had a group instead, and you could... o fuck me, discrete logarithms. guess what, another basis for cryptosystems". [00:29]
asciilifeform: in other veryolds, somehow i missed [01:05]
asciilifeform: not many folx get to be murdered twice !! [01:05]
mircea_popescu: lmao [01:11]
mircea_popescu: how the fuck does the church "decide to terminate the family's lease" [01:12]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, some dude drove over a half dozen french whatever they are, soldiers-polizei. [01:16]
asciilifeform: how does a church , e.g., ordain genderfucked priest [01:17]
asciilifeform: ... like-so ! [01:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mno. church can ordain whatever the fuck it pleases but a lease is not at-will wtf is the point even. [01:17]
mircea_popescu: "i'll just dump these remains in your back yard, throw them out whenever you're sick of them" is not what a lease says. [01:17]
asciilifeform: can't say read d00d's lease [01:18]
asciilifeform: * i read [01:18]
mircea_popescu: still. every lease i ever saw/signed had fixed term for leasor at will clause for leaser. [01:19]
mircea_popescu: because otherwise what the hell, it's not a lease it's a girlfriendizing contract. [01:19]
asciilifeform: these people shit on contracts, promises, etc whenever it suits'em [01:21]
asciilifeform: there's a word for such : [01:22]
asciilifeform: недоговороспособные [01:22]
asciilifeform: old norse called them 'nithlings' [01:23]
asciilifeform: modern english, unsurprisingly, has no word... [01:23]
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> modern english, unsurprisingly, has no word... << "Indian Givers" [02:10]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, that actually translates "incompetent" in english, which is the right word. "without the ability of entering contracts". [05:46]
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : usg.wikipedia agitprop has an open ended article on propaganda truths : [05:50]
mircea_popescu: i expect "scientifically proven" a la "climate change" no less ? [05:51]
mircea_popescu: in other unintentional lulz / comedy self-crits, [05:57]
mircea_popescu: (nemtsov, recently assassinated, was, of course, the guy putin beat for to, yeltsin's chosen successor. ah what a great party it'd have been, for teh pantsuits. clinton forever, herdemocracy herp derp... then gore lost to bush, nemtsov lost to putin, nyc lost to gravity, sads sads sads.) [06:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-07-21 00:02 phf: by the time i started figuring out the socioeconomic part of the question it was a year too late (they started tightening the screws some time before putin came to power, which was not so much the beginning but the announcement of the done deal. i remember '99 the situation of a lot of people changed drastically.) [06:05]
mircea_popescu: great "anti-corruption" guy too. let's preserve say [06:11]
mircea_popescu: !!up andrei4257 [07:23]
deedbot: andrei4257 voiced for 30 minutes. [07:23]
andrei4257: eram doar curios daca se mai intampla ceva aici [07:35]
andrei4257: aparent nu [07:35]
mircea_popescu: andrei4257 who were you again ? [07:38]
shinohai: Morning mircea_popescu [08:49]
mircea_popescu: heya [08:50]
shinohai: <<< lulzy [08:54]
mircea_popescu: oh and speaking of and faux ngos : the "organized crime and corruption reporting project", owned by a maryland state dept offshoot, is this "github for retarded euro-orks willing to journalism for free in furtherance of us "anti-corruption" anti-sovereignity agenda'. [08:55]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-09 22:47 mircea_popescu: in other lulz : obviously there's a "foundation" and a "code of conduct" (the usgistani nonsense copy/pasted) and a freenode chan, why not. ~600 accounts logged in (specifically : ) , ZERO anyone has to say at all whatsoever. most are related to, which is a pile of nonsensical lulz which you're more than welcome to try and make sense of by yourself. in any case, it's an " [08:55]
mircea_popescu: mostly used to launder "leaks" in the vein of "russian hackers" would have obtained had the leaks pointed the other way. [08:56]
mircea_popescu: possibly the largest end product of the whole mechanical orange revolutions effort of rice's dept of state. [08:56]
mircea_popescu: rather typical offering.\ [09:07]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, amusingly enough, soros' long standing tax evasion conviction or any mention of his decades on the lam have somehow entirely disappeared from all usg's wikipedias. NEVER OCCURED!!! [09:15]
mircea_popescu: shinohai cnn / politico / etc displaying a knowledge of physics entirely typical of [09:38]
a111: Logged on 2017-07-24 17:53 mircea_popescu: "Oakley is among a growing number of educators who view intermediate algebra as an obstacle to students obtaining their credentials — particularly in fields that require no higher level math skills." << teh confusion of ideas ffs. [09:38]
mircea_popescu: "acoustic attacks", really. because why, we don't know how to calculate the energy carried by a wave of specified frequency, or anything whatsoever about flow in fluids, and so on. [09:39]
mircea_popescu: for the record : a decibel is the log10 of the ratio between a measured sound energy density and 10^-12 J/m^3. consequently the energy of sound at 150 decibels (such as the sonic blast of a jet taking off at 25m, capable of rupturing eardrums) corresponds to an energy density of 10 ^ (150/10) * 10 ^ -12 = 1000 J/m^3. [10:05]
mircea_popescu: for comparison, a 100 gram tennisball capable of giving a pretty girl a nasty bruise would be going sa 100 km/h and thereby hit for .1 * (100/3.6)^2/2 ~= 40 J over its 0.001 cubic metre space, ie about 40 times more than the jet's "acoustic attack". a 8-gram 9mm round perfectly capable of making a whole new hole hits for 0.008 * 300 ^ 2 / 2 = 360 J over its 20 * 2*4.5*pi = 5.65 * 10^-7 volume, ie about 650`000 times the jet's [10:05]
mircea_popescu: "acoustic attack". [10:05]
mircea_popescu: of course, the acoustic energy saturation dampens with distance (by the cube) and with obstacles. the jet needs something to the tune of 100 MW to take off, and all this buys you at close range and in open air is bleeding from the ears, not magical symptoms such as bruises, concussions or other mysteries. [10:06]
mircea_popescu: not to mention, of course, that everyone in the area can also hear it, there's nothing mysterious about it. yes there are ways to carry sound over inaudible ultrasound as a modulation, but guess what ? that takes even more energy! a lot more, in fact. [10:07]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the entire capacity of cuba's electricity network is what, 8 MW or so ? [10:07]
* shinohai just assumed the "acoustical attack" was having American pop music piped through the PA system .... [10:07]
mircea_popescu: maybe they got cancer from listening to ustardian daytime tv. [10:08]
shinohai: lolz [10:09]
mircea_popescu: !!up PeterL [10:11]
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes. [10:11]
mircea_popescu: shinohai maybe russian hackers did it. they messed with cuba's sound.dll [10:13]
mircea_popescu: or something. [10:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall the french 7hz riot controller ? [10:14]
mod6: mornin [10:14]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes ? though it was israeli iirc, and worked irl abou as well as the recently reported stink bombs. [10:15]
asciilifeform: practicaljoakes with sound aint about joules, they're about resonances in body [10:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this works better in theory than in practice. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: anyway, the kenyan's legacy is one of the lulziest lulzfests in lulzhistory. so, he came to power on a mandate to close down gitmo, which he didn't do, and to roll back bush era power grabs which he didn't do. instead of doing what he promised he decided to do other things! [10:16]
mircea_popescu: such as : epochal switch on cuba! it... didn't survive his term. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: new ally : iran!!! it... didn't survive his term. [10:16]
mircea_popescu: obamacare!!!! it... [10:16]
mircea_popescu: and so on. [10:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 7hz thing works, but quite useless because... not directional [10:16]
mircea_popescu: and because other problems with it. [10:17]
mircea_popescu: all this wunderwaffen is just like the railgun, if you recall that discussion. [10:17]
mircea_popescu: "we're running out of oil, letr's find fun things to do with electricity" [10:17]
asciilifeform: moar like the microwave blaster [10:17]
mircea_popescu: except... oh noes! oil was actually pretty fucking irreplaceably cool ?!?!!? [10:17]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform recall back when the various uss self-destroyers got equipped with "LRAD" for great bezzles ? 90s fad. [10:18]
asciilifeform: i thought it was marketed to cargo lines [10:19]
asciilifeform: as ersatz pirate repellent [10:19]
mircea_popescu: afaik only buyer was usg. [10:19]
asciilifeform: maersk iirc bought [10:19]
mircea_popescu: right. [10:19]
asciilifeform: ( did the expected amt , lol, of good ) [10:19]
mircea_popescu: << bears repeating. [10:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-06 16:42 mats: [10:20]
asciilifeform: i saw one on ebay recently [10:20]
asciilifeform: ( lradtron ) [10:20]
PeterL: Hi everybody, here is my gossipd with the changes suggested yesterday [10:20]
mircea_popescu: ~only known use for item comes from the 90s, have nympho take a seat on overturned woofer. [10:20]
mircea_popescu: PeterL what did you end up putting in, wrote keccak variant ? [10:21]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: normal hardwarestore woofer tho [10:21]
PeterL: I just put in the crc32 as a checksum [10:22]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: PeterL you can't use unpadded rsa. it du nwork that way. [10:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, afair the threshold for ultrasound biodetectable effects (in rats) was 180db or so. [10:23]
mircea_popescu: pretty much only danger is if you're submerged. [10:24]
PeterL: well, it is not unpadded, it uses the random byte string as the pad [10:24]
* mircea_popescu looks. [10:24]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ideally you fire converging ultra at victim, with infra beat result [10:25]
mircea_popescu: PeterL you have a max nick size now ? it is a bad idea to specify protocol semantics at transport level. let me sign my lines whichever way i want, not care about it. [10:25]
asciilifeform: ( also great for 'madness voices' ) [10:25]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if victim were spherical and resided in vacuum... [10:26]
mircea_popescu: PeterL also there's specifically no allowance for "time" to be transferred. receiving station timestamps with its own time. [10:26]
PeterL: well, I guess I should put in something, I guess your nick can't be longer than the message size or there would be no room for any message [10:26]
mircea_popescu: wtf, ever got a card in the mail, "this card was received at 3:55 pm" penciled in by sender ? [10:27]
mircea_popescu: PeterL you really don't give a shit. whatever the message is, you truncate it to 220 or what was it and send. [10:27]
mircea_popescu: modularize, let each part worry about its own domain. [10:28]
PeterL: hrm, when you get it it prints the time recieved and who from, then prints the message that was sent "time, who, message" [10:28]
mircea_popescu: not what teh spec says! [10:28]
PeterL: I will review that again [10:28]
mircea_popescu: PeterL incidentally, did oyu rebase instead of patching ? [10:29]
PeterL: didn't sign anything yet, nothing to patch off of [10:29]
mircea_popescu: true. the obvious advantage of patching is that it makes it easier for readers of code to review deltas. but then again, rebasing makes it easier for writer, less shit to maintain. balancing act. [10:30]
mircea_popescu: PeterL can you explain this ping mechanism ? [10:30]
PeterL: yes, I see [10:30]
PeterL: actually, I was going to put in a ping but then didn't get around to it yet [10:31]
mircea_popescu: why do you want it ? [10:31]
PeterL: the idea being that you could keep track of who is getting your messages [10:32]
PeterL: sort of a "who is online right now" thing [10:32]
mircea_popescu: yes, but it ruins the security of the scheme, as i don't expect you will be sending pings to ips associated with bogus keys ? [10:32]
PeterL: but then I was thinking maybe we wouldn't want that anyway [10:32]
mircea_popescu: there's no real concept of "online" i can form in my mind. for instance, am i online when i'm not online ? i do read the logs... in what sense am i not online ? [10:33]
PeterL: the idea would be to ping everybody, and have an option for wther or not you respond to pings [10:33]
mircea_popescu: if the machine is on and i'm long dead, am i online cuz it pings ? [10:34]
mircea_popescu: it just makes no sense. [10:34]
* asciilifeform recalls naggum's box... it still runs [10:35]
mircea_popescu: PeterL is there any security contemplated for the data, such as i dunno, encrypt the lists of peers / keys / history etc ? or simply a case of "fuck you secure your machine" ? [10:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha! [10:35]
asciilifeform: ^ p works same [10:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform huh ? [10:35]
PeterL: at the moment there is no securing of data. that would be something to add before battlefield use. [10:36]
asciilifeform: privkeys are plaintext ( you can cipher them via some other cmdline util, or even another piped p, but no nonsense re 'bitcoin-style' enter-aes-pw etc ) [10:37]
mircea_popescu: i expect at least one's own history should be kept encrypted to a key of his. [10:37]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gpg does teh same thing. [10:37]
asciilifeform: aha, and it's placebocin [10:37]
* mircea_popescu was a major, and in fact for a year or so the only proponent of encrypted wallets for btc. [10:38]
mircea_popescu: once implemented, "theft" dropped like 90%. which is more than any usgstani effort has, or ever will do. [10:38]
asciilifeform: at any rate user can make his key , e.g., nextprime(rngolade-kept-ondisk) * nextprime(hash(pw)) if he explicitly wants [10:39]
asciilifeform: um no, [10:39]
asciilifeform: nextprime(h(another rngoladd on disk + pw)) [10:40]
asciilifeform: lol [10:40]
mircea_popescu: lol [10:40]
PeterL: also, my question re crc32 yesterday, I meant to say: given a (random) string of 250 chars, what is the proability that (random four byte string) will pass the crc32 test? which I think is just 1/256^4 [10:40]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you get the idea. no reason to standardize the diddle. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: PeterL if your string is 250 chars, there is 0 probability that an up to 32 bit setcion being altered in any way will not be caught up [10:41]
mircea_popescu: this is what crc does : for blasts up to its size, 100%. for larger blasts, proportionate. [10:41]
mircea_popescu: !!up PeterL [10:41]
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes. [10:41]
PeterL: not trying to catch changes, trying to catch random string accidentally passing the check [10:41]
mircea_popescu: that is not something crc does ? [10:42]
mircea_popescu: crc checks that the string is the same now as it was when crc was originalyl computed [10:42]
mircea_popescu: if you're asking "what is the probability of a 4000 bit string being randomly generated so it matches an arbitrary crc32", the answer is you know, 1 in infinity. [10:43]
asciilifeform: aaactually chance of computing randomturd-cum-crc is no lower than 1/bitness-of-crc [10:43]
asciilifeform: which is rather high [10:43]
asciilifeform: *randomturd that passes [10:44]
asciilifeform: think.. [10:44]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in my model the crc was also random. [10:44]
asciilifeform: well yes [10:44]
mircea_popescu: literally, "came out of rsa as garbage". [10:44]
asciilifeform: aha [10:44]
asciilifeform: still holds [10:44]
mircea_popescu: are you trying to say that since there's only 2^32 possible values for the crc, it then follows that 1 in 4bn will match ? [10:45]
asciilifeform: hint: consider payload P and crc C as indep. vars [10:45]
asciilifeform: aha!! [10:45]
mircea_popescu: a cheap improvement would be to write down also the LZW compression ratio. [10:47]
mircea_popescu: (and in any case, this is also a major improvement over gpg, which realloy only uses 2^16, and worked ok in the field for many years) [10:48]
mircea_popescu: PeterL + padlen = min(keya.l, keyb.l) - 1 # make sure that the strings will not overflow the key mods << i don't get it, why do you have variable length keys ? [10:52]
mircea_popescu: all keys same size. ideally as per discussion at that [10:53]
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 12:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since we're on this btw, the way i want tmsr-rsa key generation to work is as follows : a contains a number of entropy bytes specified by user in tmsr-rsa.conf read whenever tmsr-rsa.conf specifies (such as urandom) b contains a base-tmsr string specified by user. c = base-tmsr(a).b p = nextprime(cut(sha512(c),257)) process is repeated for q = nextprime (cut(sha512(c'),258)) [10:53]
mircea_popescu: 257, 258, 515. [10:54]
PeterL: ah, originally I had it written to allow user to change key sizes, that is a holdover just in case [10:54]
asciilifeform: lzw is neither here nor there, you can't rely on payload being compressible [10:55]
* asciilifeform bbl, meat [10:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform most very likely will be. [10:58]
mircea_popescu: PeterL no case key size is fixed. [10:59]
PeterL: oh, and I was trying to make the functions more general, avoid putting in magic numbers as much as possible [11:09]
mod6: Hi, I've updated the howto, it's not "finalized" yet. Please take a look and let me know if this doesn't read quite right, or if I've left something out: [11:31]
mod6: [11:31]
shinohai: ^ looks good mod6 [11:33]
mod6: Thanks for taking a look shinohai [11:35]
mod6: maybe i aught to add 'diff' on that list. it is inexplicable to me that it wouldn't be there, but then again, lol. [11:36]
mod6: updated [11:36]
shinohai: Yeah I forgot you had a guy with some sort of linux that didn't have diff [11:37]
mod6: I think it was patch, but yeah, maybe I'm mis-remembering that. [11:38]
mod6: my V doesn't use diff anyway, only patch, gpg, sha512sum, and wget -- and otherwise just standard shell tools such as echo, mkdir, rm, cat, etc. [11:39]
mod6: But wouldn't be a bad idea to throw it on there in the case where someone, decides to use the linked vdiff script, which uses diff. [11:39]
mod6: Updated the formatting too. [11:44]
mod6: ugh, something went sideways, standby [11:46]
mod6: Ok, I think it's better now. [11:49]
mod6: alright, I have published those changes to : [13:05]
deedbot: << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Unboxing and set-up of NoSuchlAbs FUCKGOATS on MacOS? OpenBSD? LINUX!! [13:22]
edivad: hallo [14:08]
edivad: i promise that this will be the last emergency troubleshooting about TRB [14:09]
edivad: i feel that i'm very near of a succesful compiling of bitcoind, especially after the update of the guide [14:09]
mod6: hi, how goes ? [14:10]
edivad: is going very well for a beginner [14:11]
edivad: you know, a satisfacting terminal try & die till everything works [14:11]
edivad: so, this is the last error mod6 [14:11]
mod6: alright [14:11]
edivad: [14:12]
edivad: since gcc is present i think that is some kind of env problem [14:13]
mod6: yeah, it does not seem to understand where 'c' is located. [14:13]
edivad: but i really cannot figure out what i could try before running again the make command [14:14]
mod6: did everything press alright with V ? [14:14]
edivad: :) please tell me that the solution is right around the corner, like adding a CC=/path/to/something into the makefile [14:14]
asciilifeform: !~later tell pete_dushenski [14:14]
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [14:14]
edivad: yes V had no problems [14:14]
mod6: ok good deal. [14:15]
shinohai: ^ That pthread issue I solved on Debian by going to /usr/share/cmake and changing a line in CheckIncludeFiles.cmake [14:16]
edivad: lemme try [14:17]
edivad: ok, in ubuntu no /usr/share/cmake dir for me [14:18]
edivad: even in /usr/local/share no presence of cmake dir [14:18]
mod6: yeah, this looks like it might be something with your /etc/alternatives or something [14:18]
mod6: im not sure. digging... [14:18]
shinohai: Find the line: `CMAKE_CONFIGURABLE_FILE_CONTENT}\n\nint main(){return 0}\n")` and put `void` in the parentheses after int main() [14:18]
edivad: into the makefile.unix under src? [14:19]
shinohai: No in the file CheckIncludeFiles under your cmake installation [14:19]
shinohai: (modules folder) [14:19]
edivad: going to check on ubuntu where is located [14:20]
edivad: seems different from debian [14:20]
asciilifeform: edivad: could you paste your makefile plz ? [14:21]
edivad: under src or the main? [14:21]
asciilifeform: both [14:21]
edivad: [14:22]
edivad: this is under src ^ [14:22]
asciilifeform: other one [14:23]
edivad: [14:23]
edivad: this is the main [14:23]
asciilifeform: mod6: i think his buildroot failed [14:24]
edivad: so should i delete everything and start from scratch? [14:24]
mod6: yes [14:24]
mod6: start over. [14:24]
edivad: ok [14:24]
edivad: no problem [14:24]
edivad: can i keep the .wot folder? [14:24]
asciilifeform: ( it failed, and from the posted barf it is not possible to yet say why ) [14:25]
edivad: since is a hell lot of copy paste? [14:25]
asciilifeform: edivad: yes [14:25]
edivad: ok nice [14:25]
mod6: i would blow everything away and start over following exact instructions in the howto [14:25]
edivad: i'm gonna leave the actual dir for future forensics analysis when i'll be moar expert and now i'm going to create another one [14:26]
edivad: is now downloading again boost, meanwhile i would like to ask some questions about the fuckgoats device [14:29]
edivad: that maybe someone can answer later and i will check on the logs [14:29]
edivad: basically, i recently learned how to generate private keys with a D16 + paper and pencil, and i thought that was a great way to have low cost true entropy [14:30]
mod6: edivad: are you doing the online or offline build? [14:30]
edivad: now online mod6 [14:31]
mod6: ok, that /is/ a bit less steps, so a decent place to start until you get the hang of the process. [14:31]
edivad: exactly [14:31]
asciilifeform: edivad: it's pretty expensive to use dice if your time has value. [14:32]
asciilifeform: per-byte. [14:32]
edivad: so, back to the question, is the fuckgoats device meant to be, for instance, if i run a bitcoin service that constantly need to generate private keys, let's say, for example, for an hot wallet? [14:32]
asciilifeform: for instance. [14:33]
edivad: i thought that dice was great for cheap and safe cold storage, if done it right [14:33]
edivad: but yes, asciilifeform, is very time consuming if you need to do repeatedly [14:34]
edivad: and one thing that i haven't learnt yet is how to generate a bip 44 compliant seed with dice [14:34]
asciilifeform: it's a dumb idea [14:35]
edivad: because you know, with a bip 44 compliant seed, you then generate your extended public key, and you can leave your dice in the drawer [14:35]
edivad: wasn't able to learn because those damn seeds have a last checksum word (that maybe is a perfectly ok security feature, but it cuts out manual experiments with dice) [14:36]
asciilifeform: !#s bip44 [14:36]
a111: 0 results for "bip44", [14:36]
asciilifeform: !#s bip 44 [14:36]
a111: 2 results for "bip 44", [14:36]
asciilifeform: !#s deterministic wallet [14:36]
a111: 10 results for "deterministic wallet", [14:36]
edivad: ok going to check the results [14:37]
edivad: > the state-of-the-art among thinking folk is that pre-generated tx are stored on paper and fed into a hot node when necessary [14:40]
edivad: absolutely true [14:41]
asciilifeform: << see thread [14:42]
a111: Logged on 2016-02-04 01:12 asciilifeform: why the FUCK would i [14:42]
asciilifeform: why would you do this to yourself [14:43]
asciilifeform: enemy only needs to steal ONE seed to get every privkey your ever generate [14:43]
asciilifeform: ( and possibly he can also set up a lattice and derive your key from N signatures ) [14:43]
edivad: so basically, tell me if I'm wrong [14:43]
edivad: using deterministic shit, I'm reducing the entropy of my keys, correct? [14:44]
asciilifeform: elementarily [14:44]
mircea_popescu: << very minimally just in case tho, you know. [14:44]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 15:39 mod6: But wouldn't be a bad idea to throw it on there in the case where someone, decides to use the linked vdiff script, which uses diff. [14:44]
asciilifeform: and not simply 'reducing entropy', but introducing a relationship between all of them [14:44]
edivad: that's some good warning that should be public in many places [14:44]
mircea_popescu: edivad the public wants entertainment not education. [14:45]
edivad: but you know, user friendliness is going to fuck hard security perception of mainstream users [14:45]
edivad: that's quite sad, but there's nothing that will stop this general trend [14:46]
edivad: imo [14:46]
mircea_popescu: yes. there's isn't, nor is there going to be a way, manner, instrument or device through which to protect the passive from the active. [14:47]
edivad: since i'm not yet capable to remember my 64 characters hex private key, there is a way to convert it in a seed without decreasing the security, and maybe being able to memorize it? [14:49]
edivad: i mean, not in a seed [14:49]
edivad: in some random words that can be converted into the 64 hex original key [14:49]
mircea_popescu: why not just use dicelist method. [14:50]
asciilifeform: edivad: ever read about mnemonists ? the stage magicians. [14:50]
edivad: do you mean with paper and pencil, and then storing the paper in some hole very distant from NSA eyes? mircea_popescu [14:50]
mircea_popescu: << see there. [14:51]
edivad: thanks [14:51]
mircea_popescu: write yourself one in veneto for max lulz. [14:51]
edivad: well veneto is quite far from where i live [14:52]
edivad: mod6: You need at least one UTF8 locale to build a toolchain supporting locales [14:52]
edivad: this is where i'm stuck now [14:53]
mircea_popescu: edivad whatever local dialect you speak. [14:53]
edivad: yes i know what you mean [14:53]
edivad: i could even try with pornstar names [14:54]
mircea_popescu: aha. [14:54]
edivad: at these times porn industry should have generated enough pornstar name entropy [14:54]
asciilifeform: keep in mind that forgetting your 'alphabet' is just as good as forgetting the key [14:54]
mircea_popescu: only need ~6.6k. there's about 100k total whores in the pron records. [14:55]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nobody ever forgets a whore!!!11 [14:55]
asciilifeform: lol [14:55]
edivad: mod6: auto-solved the last problem with sudo locale-gen en_US.UTF-8 [14:56]
edivad: this time google has figured out [14:56]
mod6: strange, im not sure what you mean. [14:57]
edivad: i was in a mint system without generated locales [14:57]
edivad: so had to generate it [14:58]
mod6: it's ok now? [14:58]
edivad: apparently is going forward well [14:58]
shinohai: In pantsuit lulz: [14:58]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re 2 weeks, i readily believe. [14:58]
mod6: and when you say 'mint' you don't mean 'linux mint' right? just a *new/clean* ubuntu sys? [14:58]
edivad: yes, a fresh installation [14:59]
mod6: ok good to denote. thanks. let us know if it all builds fine for ya. [14:59]
edivad: to be complete, is an lxc container that is running over proxmox [14:59]
edivad: and i must admit, i grown up with deterministic wallets in my heart and in just a couple of minutes realized how a dumb move it was [15:00]
mircea_popescu: a deterministic wallet can have its uses, but they typically aren't "user trying to cheat on running a node". [15:03]
hanbot: << looks crisp, though imho "To build TRB, you are going to need some basic requirements on your system environment." is spurious unless said requirements are specified...the next line about packages and list of same seem sufficient. [15:05]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 15:31 mod6: Hi, I've updated the howto, it's not "finalized" yet. Please take a look and let me know if this doesn't read quite right, or if I've left something out: [15:05]
edivad: mod6: same error again [15:08]
edivad: [15:09]
mircea_popescu: << are you saying cmake ships broken ?! [15:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 18:19 shinohai: No in the file CheckIncludeFiles under your cmake installation [15:09]
edivad: going to do the third clean run, since i have generated the locale in the middle of the process [15:09]
mircea_popescu: edivad wouldja use p [15:09]
hanbot: << primo dunning-kruger this morning. no awareness of logs, doesn't keep him from expecting the chicken coop chatter of "things are happening!" at expected rate. [15:09]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 11:35 andrei4257: eram doar curios daca se mai intampla ceva aici [15:09]
mircea_popescu: edivad wouldja use like sane people ? [15:09]
edivad: i'm abusing of it in some way that i haven't noticed? [15:10]
mircea_popescu: you keep coming up with random pastebins. [15:11]
mircea_popescu: hanbot heh. i expect it's deeper than that, though. dork is romanian, and that country had a ~50 year period of enforced equality-through-poverty the likes of which the us can only dream of. this has the side benefit of every kid expecting every other kid be you know, a goat of ~same size. maybe this other guy has a slightly newer car, that's the accepteable limit of it. [15:11]
mircea_popescu: this was very noticeable even when i was organising conferences for local bloggers / getting romania's new right party a headquarters etc. "oh, this doesn't really happen, mp can't really exist" etc bla bla. [15:12]
edivad: ok i will use the other pastebin no problem [15:12]
mircea_popescu: by now the psychological tension is intolerable though, "what, billionaire ?!?!?! what, tmsr ?!?!" etc. there's that little old jewish mother's voice in the back of their skull, "how come this one could and you can't ?" that's utterly killing them. [15:12]
shinohai: mircea_popescu: The cmake in Debian/Ubuntu repositories used to have that pthread bug, first time I built a trb with `V` that happened. [15:13]
mircea_popescu: denial very cheap solution to resolve this pressure. [15:13]
mircea_popescu: shinohai consider reporting on their list ? maybe. [15:13]
hanbot: mircea_popescu : i seem to remember a period in which the .ro line went that you were "illegal", yeah. [15:13]
mircea_popescu: o yeah, recall that ? "reality diverged from comfortable model thereof, but it has been denied with appropriate incantations and can now go back to bed. i wonder what's on tv ?" [15:14]
shinohai: It was fixed apparently: [15:14]
mircea_popescu: a ok then. [15:14]
edivad: shinohai: may I ask how I can find CheckIncludeFiles under Ubuntu? [15:15]
edivad: so i can change the line that you have posted [15:16]
* shinohai is happy to no longer suffer from Debian/Ubuntu infection [15:16]
mod6: <+shinohai> mircea_popescu: The cmake in Debian/Ubuntu repositories used to have that pthread bug, first time I built a trb with `V` that happened. << i don't remember ever having this issue fwiw [15:16]
mircea_popescu: << that file. [15:16]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 18:16 shinohai: ^ That pthread issue I solved on Debian by going to /usr/share/cmake and changing a line in CheckIncludeFiles.cmake [15:16]
mircea_popescu: mod6 me either. nfi, prolly cuz of ubuntu packaging. [15:16]
shinohai: edivad: If it isn't in /usr/share then you may have to grep for it .... tbh I rarely used Ubuntu so [15:17]
shinohai: I did: shinohai@trb locate CheckIncludeFiles.cmake [15:20]
shinohai: /usr/share/cmake/Modules/CheckIncludeFiles.cmake [15:20]
mircea_popescu: << it's cheap in the sense making your shoes by hand is cheap. it can be fun, but that's as far as it goes. leaving aside problems of how much a pair of aluminum, ruby or w/e dice cost (ie, GOOD dice), a throw provides you with a few bit's worth, FG spits out kB's worth per second. on a per-entropy-bit cost, figuring in capital goods, salary for the thrower, etcetera, FG is about 5 de [15:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 18:33 edivad: i thought that dice was great for cheap and safe cold storage, if done it right [15:20]
mircea_popescu: grees of magnitude cheaper. [15:20]
mod6: edivad: if `locate` doesn't find it, perhaps a simple find will: `find / -name "CheckIncludeFiles.cmake"` [15:21]
edivad: shinohai: found [15:22]
edivad: here is mine [15:22]
edivad: [15:22]
edivad: it's pretty much already modded as you have told [15:22]
mircea_popescu: edivad use not etc. [15:22]
edivad: ok [15:23]
shinohai: Ah ok .... so that must not be your particular issue [15:23]
mircea_popescu: >> this is the real concern. [15:25]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 18:43 asciilifeform: ( and possibly he can also set up a lattice and derive your key from N signatures ) [15:25]
mircea_popescu: we have some expectations about security, they do not include the self-diddle that is "deterministic signatures", ie, i'll sign with a shitton of mathematically related privkeys. [15:26]
mircea_popescu: all investigation of cryptosystems involved in bitcoin fundamentally rely on "unrelated keys" assumption. [15:26]
edivad: can i read something about lattice? i haven't understood well the message [15:26]
mircea_popescu: it's always been a major lulz for me that the same idiots howling about "don't reuse addresses -- it makes usg's pretense of defungibilizing bitcoin that less tenable" never happened to ever mention "don't deterministic wallets, it's on the level of cesar cipher homebrew". [15:27]
mircea_popescu: because hey, that's what the public needs "experts" on the level of [15:29]
mircea_popescu: what the fuck was that name of that poinless douche with a "tv show" and some "assistant" retarded chick masquerading about being me back in 2014ish ? k something [15:30]
asciilifeform: ( meanwhile from the vintage cryptoidiocies file, ) [15:34]
mircea_popescu: << keiser. whatever happened to him ? [15:35]
mircea_popescu: see alf, some do go away. [15:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you know what else reuses a hardcoded IV ? [15:38]
shinohai: Keiser still fawning for camera apparently: [15:38]
mircea_popescu: shinohai heh. [15:39]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gpg? [15:39]
mircea_popescu: ding! [15:39]
asciilifeform: meanwhile from literature search, every article ever, apparently, written re 'constant time modular exponentiation' proposes... tables [15:40]
asciilifeform: aka death by cache differentials. [15:40]
mircea_popescu: matrixes! ha-HA!\ [15:40]
asciilifeform: 'we sprayed perfume over the corpse, it is alive' [15:41]
mircea_popescu: my intuitions while useless are entirely correct! i feel much better about self. [15:41]
asciilifeform: lol [15:41]
mircea_popescu: the bitch with any such approach, as i realised last night. there is NO WAY to protect yourself from downstream cache. no way. [15:41]
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz : indexed load from memory is a leaking operation on ~all extant iron ) [15:42]
mircea_popescu: you don't even have to know it's there, your code with your entire machine could be emulated later (a la bolix on chip say) and you'd suddenly be weak, even if you deliberately included no cache. [15:42]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cache only comes into play if your memory fetch ~address~ sequence is secret-dependent [15:42]
asciilifeform: in currently published ffa set, none of the ops do this [15:42]
asciilifeform: and i ain't about to introduce any. [15:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the whole fucking point of making a n-dimensional table, be it 1 or whatever else, is to avoid looking at all the cells all the time [15:43]
asciilifeform: ( effect of caching is to make some addrs load, at particular ( or all ) times faster than others. ) [15:43]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we gotta. look. at. every. cell. every. time. [15:43]
asciilifeform: algebraic. [15:43]
mircea_popescu: aha [15:43]
mircea_popescu: that's not how the real world works tho! [15:43]
asciilifeform: lol [15:44]
mircea_popescu: myeah [15:44]
asciilifeform: forn00bz: an, e.g., rsa modexp, in ffa, must be representable by a long roll of paper, on it are ops for ordinary 4function calculator, with very patient slave. and roll ONLY ROLLS FORWARD and has finite # of instructions on it, known in advance when you decide the ffa width. [15:45]
mircea_popescu: this terribler / tribler thing is a very amusing read. [15:45]
asciilifeform: importantly, same roll MUST work for all possible m^d mod n params. [15:46]
asciilifeform: (of given width.) [15:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linked item was and remains quite typical of subj [15:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, the guy complains about the modular exponentiation not being constant time. maybe write to him ask where he ever saw a sane algo ? [15:46]
asciilifeform: ( various 'anon' shitchats and various pseudogossiptrons ) [15:46]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody knows , afaik, a sane algo. not 1 lib implements anything of the kind [15:47]
asciilifeform: openssl, for instance, features the one with tables [15:47]
mircea_popescu: doesn't keep him from complaining about it, so worth an ask. [15:47]
asciilifeform: and leaks timing on every intel box since 1990s [15:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also why not ask him re philosopher's stone!11 [15:48]
mircea_popescu: myeah. [15:49]
asciilifeform: while we're on the subj of 'cryptographers' : a constant time gcd is also apparently not known. [15:51]
asciilifeform: ditto modular inverse [15:52]
asciilifeform: ditto modular mult [15:52]
asciilifeform: plenty of nonsense claiming to solve these, entire forests annihilated. but EVERYONE pulled the scam described earlier ( memory indexed by secret value ) [15:55]
asciilifeform: most don't even bother with this pretense. is a more typical idiocy [15:57]
asciilifeform: contribution to gmp [15:57]
asciilifeform: observe... ORDINARY BRANCHING! [15:57]
asciilifeform: claims ' Compute V <-- A^{-1} (mod M), in data-independent time.' in comments tho [15:58]
asciilifeform: exercise for reader : find the hidden conditionals. [15:58]
asciilifeform: actually hm, maybe not a lie [16:01]
* asciilifeform bbl, off to torture room [16:01]
asciilifeform: >> for whoever it was who had asked re lattice solving for privkey [16:20]
edivad: hallo [17:27]
edivad: i have a super good news, node is compiled, up and running [17:28]
edivad: thanks again to all of you that have helped me in the troubleshooting [17:28]
edivad: now instructions are much clearer [17:29]
shinohai: \o/ [17:30]
shinohai: Nice work edivad [17:31]
edivad: now that i run a node i can consider myself truly part of tmsr? [17:31]
shinohai: Tis a start. [17:32]
edivad: i think that is important to add to the guide that the average joe will need at least 6 gb of space in his hard disk to be able to compile from scratch TRB [17:33]
edivad: i was doing the process in a 8gb container and at a point i wasn't so confortable continuing refreshing df to check my free space [17:35]
trinque: pittance compared to what you'll need to hold the blockchain, eh? [17:36]
edivad: problem is this [17:36]
edivad: i keep the blockchain stored separatedly [17:36]
trinque: ah well sure, suppose mod6 could mention the build environment is going to be big. [17:37]
trinque: anyhow wd edivad [17:37]
edivad: that precious indexed database, with hours of CPU time on his shoulders, won't be mixed with dirty system files [17:37]
edivad: in my case i've recycled a previous bitcoin core blockchain and fired up TRB [17:38]
edivad: and now is checking every block from the beginning [17:38]
edivad: other quick questions are rising [17:39]
edivad: the 1st) when i started for the first time TRB, he was bitching that myip=something wasn't present on my .conf. Is this a TRB specific requirement? [17:39]
edivad: 2nd) the second time that i've started TRB, it was complaining that wallet.dat was corrupted (this wallet.dat was generated from latest core, so i suppose is deterministic, is this the reason for being rejected?) [17:41]
mod6: <+edivad> i have a super good news, node is compiled, up and running << yay! [17:41]
trinque: 1, correct, see asciilifeform_zap_showmyip_crud.vpatch [17:41]
trinque: it was calling out to some website for external IP, which is nonsense. [17:42]
edivad: ok perfect [17:42]
mod6: <+edivad> thanks again to all of you that have helped me in the troubleshooting << You're welcome. Very good of you to have such persistence to keep working through the issues. [17:42]
trinque: 2, entirely likely the power rangers changed the wallet format [17:42]
mod6: <+edivad> i was doing the process in a 8gb container and at a point i wasn't so confortable continuing refreshing df to check my free space << oh sure. I didn't even think to ask. Next time I will. [17:43]
mod6: <+trinque> ah well sure, suppose mod6 could mention the build environment is going to be big. << While I'm at it on the updates i think, let's say, you need a minimum of what? 20Gb ? [17:43]
edivad: ok perfect, the third time that i've restarted the node there weren't no problem at all [17:44]
trinque: looks like my trb dir weighs 4.5gb over here something like that should be fine [17:44]
mod6: yeah, that's always what mine is once complete, ~4.5G [17:44]
edivad: i need to ask something more political than technical [17:45]
mod6: I'll say 20G, that should suffice, for now. [17:45]
trinque: edivad: don't ask to ask. [17:45]
edivad: i've understood that TRB = purity [17:45]
trinque: !#s taint [17:45]
a111: 141 results for "taint", [17:45]
trinque: edivad: define "purity" before proceeding. [17:46]
edivad: in the case of segwit, this means that trb won't care about segwit blocks and as long as they will complies with the "hard rules" (I really don't know how to explain myself better) they will be accepted? [17:46]
mod6: ok updated, take another look: [17:47]
edivad: nice mod6 [17:48]
mod6: o7 [17:48]
mod6: Thanks again. [17:48]
trinque: edivad: can search the logs first, eh? there's lots in there re: segwit and other failures of folks to diddle the definition of bitcoin [17:49]
trinque: as currently derped, yep, "segwit" shouldn't mean a damn thing to bitcoin proper. [17:49]
mod6: edivad: yah, it'll really help you out to read at least 6 months of logs. And if you read more, even better. There's a wealth of knowledge in there. [17:49]
trinque: cept that eventually miners will defect from the thing, and steal everyone's segwit "transactions", much to the lul of all. [17:50]
edivad: ok I'll read it before asking political questions [17:50]
shinohai: Also, from here onwards you should refer to Segwit as `Segshit` [17:55]
trinque: oh I got one: segregated witless [17:56]
shinohai: lel [17:56]
mircea_popescu: in other 15yos, [20:13]
mircea_popescu: << running bitcoin nodes in containers is a really bad idea anyway. [20:16]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 21:35 edivad: i was doing the process in a 8gb container and at a point i wasn't so confortable continuing refreshing df to check my free space [20:16]
mircea_popescu: << it is conceivable you can reuse prb blockchains, if you care. not that there's anything wrong with rechecking the chain if oyu're in no hurry. expect a coupla months tho. and i suppose look into eatblock etc while at it. [20:18]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 21:38 edivad: in my case i've recycled a previous bitcoin core blockchain and fired up TRB [20:18]
mircea_popescu: << um my chain is 151Gb, wtf are you folk doing ?! [20:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 21:44 mod6: yeah, that's always what mine is once complete, ~4.5G [20:20]
mircea_popescu: << yes. [20:20]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 21:46 edivad: in the case of segwit, this means that trb won't care about segwit blocks and as long as they will complies with the "hard rules" (I really don't know how to explain myself better) they will be accepted? [20:20]
ben_vulpes: in other fuddings, [20:36]
mircea_popescu: lel [20:36]
mircea_popescu: tru fact : 6Tg of gold is detectable from a bridge over east river. [20:37]
ben_vulpes: how's that? [20:37]
mircea_popescu: same way it's detected when people start a mine. [20:37]
mircea_popescu: ultrasound, rad scatter, there's a whole list. [20:38]
mircea_popescu: if you have such a narrow premise ("is there or is there not a terragram of gold at so and so coords") experimental falsification is trivial, and not even expensive in contex. the bitch is forming the premise in the first place. [20:39]
trinque: 4.5gb for trb build, not blockchain [20:49]
mircea_popescu: a a [20:49]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes gold / other heavy metals are sorta fluorescent, let's say, in X-ray illumination. leaving aside that even amateur beach comber fare on sale for the cost of a lawn mower can see large chunks at 20-30 meters (that's 10 floors or so). [20:55]
asciilifeform: holy shit, ultrasound 'from a bridge over east river'?! [21:09]
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu might like to mention the xray background ( wtf? ever consider the self-absorption of an item with density of gold!?) to prospectors [21:11]
asciilifeform: who never heard of any such thing [21:11]
asciilifeform: now theoretically you could pick up a cubic few metres of au with... gravimeter. but strictly from, e.g., 1 story up [21:12]
asciilifeform: and certainly not 'across the river' [21:13]
asciilifeform: cavities (e.g. mines, tunnels) are a different story, the missing soil is quite 'loud' gravimetrically [21:13]
asciilifeform: << can set up mass of depleted uranium and trick gravimeter. [21:15]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-11 00:39 mircea_popescu: if you have such a narrow premise ("is there or is there not a terragram of gold at so and so coords") experimental falsification is trivial, and not even expensive in contex. the bitch is forming the premise in the first place. [21:15]
asciilifeform: none of the other measures work through the door, sadly. even if we were discussing sr-90 rather than au [21:15]
asciilifeform: the only thing that'd make it 'across river' is gravity , and possibly fast neutrons. which au dun emit. [21:16]
asciilifeform: ( unless the au-via-neutron bombardment thing were to take off.. ) [21:17]
asciilifeform: to round off the wtf -- 'beachcomber' inductive 'minesweeper' tops out at 30-40 ~cm~, not m [21:18]
asciilifeform: ground-penetrating radar gives a few M, realistically, fewer in dense or wet material . [21:19]
asciilifeform: << mno, they use different db [21:22]
a111: Logged on 2017-08-11 00:18 mircea_popescu: << it is conceivable you can reuse prb blockchains, if you care. not that there's anything wrong with rechecking the chain if oyu're in no hurry. expect a coupla months tho. and i suppose look into eatblock etc while at it. [21:22]
asciilifeform: the index won't read by trb. [21:22]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's the thing, it absorbs, and then emits. [21:31]
mircea_popescu: this is actually in production, dun hate me. [21:31]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and no, inductive sweeper will go meters for large enough (100gram) chunks. [21:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in production where? [21:36]
mircea_popescu: australia for one. everywhere there's enough gold to be worth it. [21:37]
asciilifeform: first place i'd expect it is at usg border arch. [21:38]
mircea_popescu: nah. it's container sized item [21:38]
asciilifeform: so is the neutronograph [21:38]
mircea_popescu: it's also you know... unhealthy. [21:38]
asciilifeform: if you're thinking of item that ~emits~ xray... [21:39]
mircea_popescu: anyway. many ops deploy it to reduce lossage. [21:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes dude. let's redo the sentence : "gold / other heavy metals are sorta fluorescent, let's say, in X-ray illumination" [21:39]
asciilifeform: inverse-square is a thing. picture what you'd need to even go above backgnd at 'river' distance [21:39]
mircea_popescu: if you put an x-ray lamp on gold, and then turn it off, you will see some radiation back, and on specific frequency [21:39]
asciilifeform: at a metre or 2 yes [21:40]
mircea_popescu: you can beam xrays. [21:40]
asciilifeform: gotta wake up regan and tell him how [21:40]
mircea_popescu: next you're going to nix lasers because you saw a lightbulb once. [21:41]
asciilifeform: ( sdi sank from, among other lulz, failure to discover a practical xray laser ) [21:41]
asciilifeform: hey it's possible in principle... [21:41]
mircea_popescu: !~google colimated high energy x-rays [21:41]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: High - energy X - rays - Wikipedia: <> Beam collimation with polycapillary x - ray optics for high ... - NCBI: <> velopment HIGH ENERGY X - RAY DIFFRACTION ... - NIST: <> [21:41]
asciilifeform: ( from what to make mirrors?! tho ) [21:41]
asciilifeform: refraction works, in every crystallography shop [21:42]
asciilifeform: but how to reflect. [21:42]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know this field has advanced significantly ? they have all sorts of phase-velocity abusing composites and so on. [21:42]
asciilifeform: that was the hope aha [21:42]
asciilifeform: 'metamaterial' [21:43]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [21:43]
asciilifeform: even pumped beam , or epic cosmic ray, still stops a few ~cm~ in au or pb tho [21:44]
mircea_popescu: anyway. the whole point was that such a large agglomeration of single-atom rare element is eminently detectable. it is. [21:44]
asciilifeform: a few M in soil, brick. [21:44]
asciilifeform: if it falls on you - yes detectable. on xray in a man-sized arch, hidden in a snatch - detectable. from river - can't picture how. [21:45]
asciilifeform: even sr90 lighthouse rtg , unshielded, is ~silent from few 100m of ~air~ [21:47]
mircea_popescu: there's no even here. different emission profile entirely. [21:48]
asciilifeform: show me the magic particle that has infinite free path even in air, much less earth, cement [21:48]
asciilifeform: even fast neutron tops out at a few M of solid dirt [21:49]
mircea_popescu: fast neutron is bad model for energetic photon [21:49]
mircea_popescu: there is no "even". [21:49]
mircea_popescu: "even car stops at light, bike is smaller than car!!" is bad argument. [21:50]
asciilifeform: show me the particle ? e.g., x kEv gamma. which is it. [21:51]
mircea_popescu: lol kev [21:51]
mircea_popescu: how about you know, 20MeV if we're bothering at all ? [21:51]
asciilifeform: let's take all 100mEv [21:51]
asciilifeform: that's 5 or so cm of pb. [21:51]
asciilifeform: and it's gone. [21:51]
mircea_popescu: actually, no. 2mev is 10 cm. [21:52]
mircea_popescu: and soil is no pb. and it's not "gone", it's 1/e'd. the remainder can... 1/e again. and so on. [21:52]
mircea_popescu: the threshold for detectability is below 1kev (review your pll discussion to see why it goes way below "base"). [21:53]
asciilifeform: 'gone' in practice means 'not measurable over backgnd' [21:53]
asciilifeform: how do you pll for radiodecay?!!! [21:53]
asciilifeform: it aint periodic [21:53]
mircea_popescu: basically, a high energy xray will lose 2/3 of its energy every dozen or so meters. whatever's left illuminates the gold (there's no crossing gold, too large barn), and then gets sent back, as gold-xray-pink [21:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu admit, do you have a bottle of rum open..? [21:54]
mircea_popescu: which is quite specific. [21:54]
asciilifeform: this worx great in a man-sized box [21:54]
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ye. [21:55]
asciilifeform: objection is 'through door, wall, across river' [21:55]
asciilifeform: though it'd rock. [21:55]
mircea_popescu: taking 20MeV source arbitrarily and 2 kev detector, you have roughly speaking 8 and a half halvings at your disposal. if your 1/e distance is 10 meters, that means 40 meters away your detector will still work. [21:56]
mircea_popescu: i dun have the datasheets to give better numbers with, but anyway. [21:57]
asciilifeform: the backscatter gotta come back tho [21:57]
mircea_popescu: yes, 4 * 10 to go, 4 * 10 to return. [21:57]
asciilifeform: most of it dun return in same direction ... [21:57]
mircea_popescu: yeah, and detector works as low as 10 ev sorta level. [21:58]
asciilifeform: but lacking the actual magic nums ( asciilifeform is still at beachhouse, lol ) i'ma have to leave it at 'maybe works from 40m!' [21:58]
mircea_popescu: anyway! rather than bickering over the obviously rhetorics involved, how about we in general agree that such a huge mass of a rare atom is eminently detectable and thassat. [21:58]
asciilifeform: i'd still bet on gravimeter, if i had to go and detect it meself [21:59]
mircea_popescu: i didn't by any means aim to produce an exhaustive or practical list! [21:59]
mircea_popescu: but on the contrary : "even scandalous methods still work". which they do. [21:59]
asciilifeform: gravimeter's the only thing that'd give actual idea of the mass, rather than volume, of the pile. [22:00]
asciilifeform: which afaik is what the 'fed au is tungstentronic' thing is really about [22:01]
mircea_popescu: tungsten is comparable mass isn't it ? [22:01]
asciilifeform: nope [22:01]
mircea_popescu: anyway. tungsten xray pink very different from gold xray pink. which is teh real idea! [22:02]
asciilifeform: well, not terribly far, but not same [22:02]
asciilifeform: this only affects surface x cm of pile tho [22:02]
mircea_popescu: true. [22:02]
asciilifeform: ( supposing you could walk up to it and illuminate ) [22:02]
mircea_popescu: could "glaze" by arranging them [22:02]
mircea_popescu: which i expect they did do. [22:02]
asciilifeform: aha! [22:03]
asciilifeform: for visiting lizards [22:03]
asciilifeform: ( iirc nixon was the last ) [22:03]
ben_vulpes: << aaand i just bounced off of this [22:12]
a111: Logged on 2017-07-13 15:18 phf: for the longest time i thought that common lisp spec is a magic paper against modernization. not so, and you can see it with the recent evolution of sbcl. for example they made it an error to locally shadow cl package symbols, e.g. (fleti) ...) will fail, breaking a lot of reasonable old code. many historic idioms likewise produce compilation warnings, etc. [22:12]
ben_vulpes: while i'm on the topic, can confirm that 'modern' asdf is all sorts of royal pita as well, although that thread has been well hashed in the logs [22:13]
deedbot: << Trilema - Did you ever claim to have butterflies in your stomach ? [22:23]
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all [23:00]
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 3419.99, vol: 9161.91729630 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 3419.1, vol: 19964.5032206 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 3402.046496, vol: 9361.89220000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 3459.999, vol: 4143.61787294 | Volume-weighted last average: 3419.52153539 [23:00]
deedbot: << Qntra - Oregon School Board Erasing Donor Family Name From Buildings [23:27]
ben_vulpes: ho ho ho [23:28]
BingoBoingo: tyvm ben_vulpes [23:29]
* ben_vulpes tips hat [23:31]
mircea_popescu: o hey wd. is it your first ? [23:41]
ben_vulpes: nono, just found it very amusing [23:43]
ben_vulpes: that level of shiv/word density is far beyond what i can accomplish, BingoBoingo has been practicing [23:45]
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: You too can increase your razorblade to punction mark count too! [23:48]
mircea_popescu: ah ah. yea [23:48]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: i appreciate the exhortation [23:49]
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Who knows how much your language could sharpen if you consistently wrote Qntra for 34 months? [23:49]
ben_vulpes: step 1: home orifice. step 2: being useful member of society [23:49]
BingoBoingo: home orifice consists of putting desk next to bed. One is for writing, other for sleeping, both useful furniture for fucking guests. [23:50]
ben_vulpes: dun work for me, orifice gotta be childfree [23:52]
BingoBoingo: child plays in yard? [23:53]
ben_vulpes: yes and [23:54]
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: gotta realize, i'm a sucker for cuddles [23:54]
ben_vulpes: wimminz, puppiez, childrenz [23:54]
BingoBoingo: Now that's gotta drain the venom. Why are you bothering with productivity worries? First things first! [23:56]
ben_vulpes: i'm waiting for age and failure to mature me into a nice ball of hate [23:57]
BingoBoingo: Maybe spend a bit of time with some people who've been wrecked by Inca, want better for the puppies? [23:59]
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  1. thx much for the invitation :). I am expert of pandemic, and i can help you.
    PS: How are you? I am from France :) very good forum :) mixx

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