Forum logs for 09 Sep 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:

BingoBoingo:	!!up boolcrap	[00:10]
deedbot:	boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.	[00:10]
pete_dushenski:	http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-08-sep-2016#2164103 << as you'll note in http://www.contravex.com/2016/02/29/waiting-for-taleb/ , taleb isn't here for ~cultural~ reasons. not usgkultur either, but his proudly flashed mediterranean levantine orthodox roots. boeck has as much influence on this as antelope have on italian soda fizziness.	[01:15]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 18:58 asciilifeform: boeck et al is to reduce the risk that taleb shows up here. etc	[01:15]
pete_dushenski:	blaming the 'atmosphere' on the modest (but non-zero!) number of folks walking through the #trilema door is akin to blaming 'society' that you can't get an erection. it's not the talking head's fault that your wife's ugly.	[01:17]
pete_dushenski:	anyways, enjoyable thread there.	[01:18]
pete_dushenski:	strange market forces observation of the day : moving guys (ie. pure muscle) command the same going rate as qualified plumbers (ie. skilled trade). perhaps both are equally scarce relative to demand, or else the mover's rates just appear higher due to higher-than-plumber overhead (trucks, mechanics, garages, etc.). either way, it's always fun to figure out how the cookie crumbles.	[01:25]
pete_dushenski:	both are ~$60/hr if anyone cares to compare their geography at home	[01:27]
pete_dushenski:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537331 << as with pack of gum, it's not a bad little psychological tactic, this. gets (l)users to experience the pringles-esque "once you pop you can't stop" phenomenon.	[01:29]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 16:34 asciilifeform: http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/256205-thumb/AirPods-header.jpg << is it just me or do these look like... smokes ?	[01:29]
pete_dushenski:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537375 << there are a few references on contravex as well. eg. http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/24/bitcoin-year-in-review-2014-the-price-went-down-so-we-prepared-for-war/#footnote_8_1928	[01:31]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 17:14 PeterL: speaking of books, mircea_popescu have you read "The Prince" by Machiavelli? I have been reading it and for some reason it made me think of you (though I expect you would read it in the original Italian?)	[01:31]
* pete_dushenski	shamefully read in english.	[01:31]
pete_dushenski:	re: taleb, it's also worth noting that way back in 2014 i was ~the sole voice saying that camgirl vids weren't going to turn his crank and bring him here, in the face of "oh but he's still a dude, pete" opposition, no less. whereas alf regularly gets to say "i told you so" whenever another flaw in the shitstack of personal computing is revealed, or mp whenever another usg muppet hoists himself on his own	[01:35]
pete_dushenski:	petard, it's a rare treat for yours truly to be able to say as much in this company.	[01:35]
pete_dushenski:	obviously, "i told you so" and $5 will buy you coffee. and that it used to be $2 for coffee is neither here nor there.	[01:36]
pete_dushenski:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537430 << das racist	[01:40]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 17:40 asciilifeform: 'Data coming from true random number generators is never 100% random. I am aware of no exceptions. Whitening is required in all cases before the data is suitable for use in cryptography.' << from first link	[01:40]
pete_dushenski:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537513 << hell, they embrace it. their cars are ~the weirdest on the planet. some credit Béla Barényi with the original vw beetle design, which obviously also spawned the legendary porsche 911.	[01:45]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 18:37 mircea_popescu: at least hungarians know they've been cursed with stupid.	[01:45]
pete_dushenski:	http://archive.is/4BFtG << history of hungarian microcars.	[01:46]
pete_dushenski:	http://archive.is/cUEZI << history of hungarian soviet-era cars	[01:47]
pete_dushenski:	huh, archive.is missed some pics on the 2nd link. here the original then : http://jalopnik.com/these-were-your-car-options-in-hungary-under-the-soviet-1545678388	[01:48]
pete_dushenski:	nvm that jalopnik is a gawker property. if you stick with their hungarian writers, particularly peter orosz and mate petrany, you'll learn some mega-nifty and uber-arcane shit.	[01:49]
pete_dushenski:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537529 << and how would mr. "i'd love to wank off but the gurlz would be too angry" know this exaclty ? little birdie whispered in his ear ? :p	[01:50]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 18:49 mircea_popescu: gavin is ~a used cumsock.	[01:50]
pete_dushenski:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537575 << this ties in very neatly the never-ending thread about the meaning and definition of intelligence, particularly the angle about 'intelligent' being best used to describe an individual's actions ex post facto. injun is a genius only for as long as his world is of low complexity. when whitey comes over and opens pandora's box on his ass, complexity explodes and	[01:55]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-08 19:04 asciilifeform: british soldiers carting in convoy of rotgut barrels to distribute to australian abos, betcha, also said 'drunks' choices!'	[01:55]
pete_dushenski:	overwhelming majority of redmen are steamrolled by its sheer (liquid) mass.	[01:55]
pete_dushenski:	so, like design, intelligence... depends.	[01:56]
pete_dushenski:	!~ seen mats	[01:57]
jhvh1:	pete_dushenski: I have not seen mats.	[01:57]
pete_dushenski:	http://archive.is/rK7hA << speaking of history and taleb, his latest aphorism. i can dig it. (for non-link-clickers : read more ancient history of private lives)	[02:03]
pete_dushenski:	and now, your moment of zen https://youtu.be/2ZmM-2gj5Gc	[02:15]
* pete_dushenski	to take a few long blinks	[02:15]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: yeah, agreed, will remove!	[02:34]
Framedragger:	will make it so previous links on e.g. your site don't break just that default links generated when clicking don't include the thing	[02:35]
Framedragger:	omg attempting https on trilema.com gives common name = server1.nigger.com, email = ssl@server1.nigger.com -- l0l0l.	[04:05]
Framedragger:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#243 << mkay fix'd	[04:16]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-09: [06:35:04] <Framedragger> will make it so previous links on e.g. your site don't break just that default links generated when clicking don't include the thing	[04:16]
mircea_popescu:	incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.	[06:50]
mircea_popescu:	we could make it work on udp, and initiate sessions through encrypting a large prime to the destination's key or some equivalent implementation, so we get to test alf's new-internet-order ideas also.	[06:51]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present.	[07:00]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.	[07:00]
mircea_popescu:	"who are you ?" "i am my V and .sig machine" is a perfectly fine response.	[07:00]
Framedragger:	OT, http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/teach-a-man-to-fish	[07:15]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538037 << lel what has mircea_popescu been drinking...?	[08:05]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 10:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.	[08:05]
asciilifeform:	why not also build it into not only gossipd but a shortwave antenna, a kalash, a cement mixer, stradivari, and van gogh...	[08:06]
asciilifeform:	a lynx, a manticore, a leucrota...	[08:06]
mircea_popescu:	hm ?	[08:07]
asciilifeform:	separation of concerns?	[08:09]
asciilifeform:	vs 'hang shit off side of rifle.'	[08:10]
mircea_popescu:	you don't live in emacs i take it ?	[08:10]
asciilifeform:	nope.	[08:10]
asciilifeform:	though i have at least one in front of me at all times	[08:11]
asciilifeform:	i've he panel wall, recall.	[08:11]
asciilifeform:	*the	[08:11]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. this "separation of concerns" objection would have a lot more meat on its imaginary bones if there actually eixsted any sort of gossipd. as there doesn't, the objection has no legs to stand on.	[08:11]
Framedragger:	why not have p2p client for stuff like this but which would be agnostic to internals of V, and separate from V? it can use V's .wot, tho	[08:12]
mircea_popescu:	the concerns can be separated... latger.	[08:12]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger gotta start somewhere. but yes, you intuit correctly, that's where it's headed.	[08:12]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: if we crash over an island, and have no rifle, it is still unwise to bolt-shit-to-side of the imagined rifle we lack together.	[08:13]
Framedragger:	right. wonder if it's any harder to have the p2p part be separate. it can create a local mountpoint which would just be additional folders/files for V to process	[08:13]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger well the whole point is to stop wondering.	[08:13]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: also, talk about increased attack surface / complexity	[08:13]
Framedragger:	(but yes it's easy to criticize)	[08:13]
mircea_popescu:	most designs suffer a lot of changes when one tries to actually implement them, which is why prototypes exist in the first place.	[08:13]
Framedragger:	sure, true.	[08:14]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform you can't "bolt things" to items that do not exist.	[08:14]
asciilifeform:	i did propose that it might ALL come together in the end.	[08:14]
asciilifeform:	e.g., gossip and bitcoin.	[08:14]
asciilifeform:	not, i must add, as i proggy, but as system.	[08:15]
mircea_popescu:	still, you know - most everything extant today started life as a nodule on something else. nothing wrong with this in principle.	[08:15]
asciilifeform:	*1 prog	[08:15]
mircea_popescu:	eventually they separate, if they do, or the nodule dies off/gets resorbed in the main trunk, or the trunk dies off and the nodule continues it instead, or or or.	[08:15]
mircea_popescu:	certainly it is not contemplated here thatg anyone would be forced to run v to get gossipd. heck, i don't even believe such "forcing" would be in principle possible.	[08:16]
asciilifeform:	$s light cone	[08:19]
a111:	8 results for "light cone", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=light%20cone	[08:19]
asciilifeform:	i did draw this picture once, mircea_popescu .	[08:20]
asciilifeform:	and yes, it will happen.	[08:20]
mircea_popescu:	on a vapkin!	[08:20]
asciilifeform:	'find my light cone' is an inevitable knob of gossipd.	[08:20]
* shinohai	wonders if asciilifeform has a binder full of napkin drawings in his lab	[08:21]
mircea_popescu:	well, the principal difference between gossipd-for-v and gossipd-proper is that v operates on signed matter exclusively gossipd-proper operates on unsigned matter exclusively.	[08:21]
mircea_popescu:	$up vivas82	[08:22]
mircea_popescu:	didja read shinohai 's guide vivas82 ?	[08:22]
shinohai:	!!up vivas82	[08:22]
asciilifeform:	a gossipd link of degree 1 ( 'private message' in mircea_popescu's version of the sketch ) operates on signed matter	[08:22]
deedbot:	vivas82 voiced for 30 minutes.	[08:22]
mircea_popescu:	if you sign something, there's no further degrees.	[08:22]
mircea_popescu:	third party can check a signature as well as you can.	[08:23]
asciilifeform:	third party doesn't see it	[08:23]
mircea_popescu:	this is not only a ridiculous hope, but contrary to design principle. the point of gossipd is that he sees.	[08:23]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. identity doesn't need signature to be checked. behold :	[08:23]
vivas82:	Thanks.	[08:24]
mircea_popescu:	!!rate deedbot 1 How are you gonna check it's really me, bitch ?	[08:24]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/lylkw/?raw=true	[08:24]
asciilifeform:	protocol vs promise.	[08:24]
asciilifeform:	only sig is actual protocol.	[08:25]
mircea_popescu:	a gossipd that requires me to sign anything is not to any degree interesting.	[08:25]
mircea_popescu:	i'll just continue using my current system, because such a gossipd would be an outrageous degradation of everything.	[08:25]
asciilifeform:	signs with station key, not royal key	[08:26]
asciilifeform:	or your packets are not distinguishable from cosmic noise from pov of my station.	[08:26]
mircea_popescu:	it quickly becomes dubious. because a signature permits a certain relationship. whereas gossipd rests on dubious relationships.	[08:26]
mircea_popescu:	yeah, they are. much like deedbot distinguishes above.	[08:26]
asciilifeform:	deedbot, as it lives on fleanode, is promisetronic.	[08:27]
mircea_popescu:	here's the handshake : syn -> 5db1fee4b5703808c48078a76768b155b421b210c0761cd6a5d223f4d99f1eaa -> 1337 -> ack.	[08:27]
asciilifeform:	could have been replaced with hitler's 5min ago .	[08:27]
mircea_popescu:	you're switching things. the point is that deedbot knows it is really me not vice-versa.	[08:28]
asciilifeform:	it - aha	[08:28]
asciilifeform:	because you decoded.	[08:28]
mircea_popescu:	so i signed nothing and yet IT (and only it) could know it was me. this is important.	[08:28]
mircea_popescu:	what's more important is that gossipd works like otp : "sure you can decrypt this text mr evil. WHAT would you like it to decrypt to ?"	[08:29]
mircea_popescu:	no "you can't decrypt it". but "you can decrypt it, of course. to anything you wish."\|	[08:29]
asciilifeform:	rsa unfortunately does not give this.	[08:30]
deedbot:	http://qntra.net/2016/09/democratic-peoples-republic-of-best-korea-conducts-fifth-nuclear-test/ << Qntra - Democratic People's Republic Of Best Korea Conducts Fifth Nuclear Test	[08:30]
mircea_popescu:	it's my considered oppinion it does, if used as above.	[08:30]
mircea_popescu:	in any case rsa signatures are contrary to this, however.	[08:30]
asciilifeform:	only otp actually creates this effect.	[08:31]
asciilifeform:	an rsagram cannot 'decrypt to whatever you want'	[08:31]
asciilifeform:	its true key, should it ever turn up, is distinguishable from any other bitstring.	[08:31]
mircea_popescu:	the "decrypt to whatever you want" part is not about the rsagram itself, but about the structure of relationships.	[08:31]
mircea_popescu:	if you have signed matter, then definite things can be said. otherwise - you need a priest.	[08:32]
mircea_popescu:	and a priest will do whatever you want him to do.	[08:32]
asciilifeform:	i fully grasp what mircea_popescu wants to accomplish here, but it does not work with his stated mechanism.	[08:33]
shinohai:	Priests can withold absolution however	[08:33]
mircea_popescu:	youll have to go into detail bout that asciilifeform	[08:33]
asciilifeform:	didn't we do this before..	[08:34]
mircea_popescu:	shinohai we'rte talking from the pov of the lord not the pleb here. priest does exactly as told or else fucks goats in the receptive sense of the term.	[08:34]
shinohai:	>.<	[08:34]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform apparently not profitably.	[08:34]
asciilifeform:	a working gossipd must combine two seemingly-contradictory features: 1) friend-or-foe identification on single packet - no such thing as ddos or replay remains possible -- 2) enemy on the wire can learn nothing about relation graph.	[08:35]
mircea_popescu:	except a working model of 1 is already both deployed and theoretically understood, as described above.	[08:36]
asciilifeform:	there are several ways to cut this knot, but thus far i am not satisfied with any	[08:36]
mircea_popescu:	understand, from the fact you observe deedbot has accepted my order you do not know anything other than that - to DEEDBOT it is acceptable. ie, you're uysing a priest. this is fine.	[08:37]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: deedbot is not a working model of 1packetron omfg	[08:37]
mircea_popescu:	how not ? again. syn -> 5db1fee4b5703808c48078a76768b155b421b210c0761cd6a5d223f4d99f1eaa -> 1337 -> ack.	[08:37]
asciilifeform:	it does NOT follow the nothing-to-allcomers principle.	[08:37]
mircea_popescu:	it does. because if it doesn't know me, it can't answer to my syn now can it.	[08:38]
mircea_popescu:	i'd say it's actually "nothing to all comers" guaranteedly, you can't break this even if you want to.	[08:39]
asciilifeform:	it could if you were both sybils today.	[08:39]
mircea_popescu:	wait what ? who "both"	[08:39]
asciilifeform:	both replaced with muppets.	[08:39]
asciilifeform:	deedbot and mircea_popescu in this example.	[08:39]
mircea_popescu:	a network between a and b who have BOTH been replaced ?	[08:39]
mircea_popescu:	this is lulzy.	[08:40]
asciilifeform:	from my pov.	[08:40]
mircea_popescu:	ah, with an invariant c. so how do you break it ? or what ?	[08:40]
asciilifeform:	what's there to break?	[08:40]
mircea_popescu:	i just dunno what you're saying starting 8 lines ago. "<asciilifeform> it could if you were both sybils today."	[08:41]
asciilifeform:	but, to briefly rewind, there are two wholly separate concerns here and should be drawn separately.	[08:41]
asciilifeform:	one is to banish mosquitoes from the atmosphere. for which -- single-packet 'man or mosquito' litmus is required.	[08:42]
asciilifeform:	other - is the mechanism described in mircea_popescu's sketch.	[08:43]
mircea_popescu:	do this again and do it properly, without reference.	[08:43]
asciilifeform:	which	[08:43]
mircea_popescu:	<asciilifeform> but, to briefly rewind, << and following. static linking, not dynamic linking. your "the mechanism described in mircea_popescu's sketch." symbol is not acceptabru.	[08:43]
asciilifeform:	what, lel, let's restate whole thing..?	[08:44]
Framedragger:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#343 << isn't the reason it's currently able to do that (send otps to check) is because it's not interesting enough so parties flood it with bogus requests and generally DoS it to shreds?	[08:44]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-09: [12:36:29] <mircea_popescu> except a working model of 1 is already both deployed and theoretically understood, as described above.	[08:44]
Framedragger:	hence why http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#346	[08:44]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-09: [12:37:26] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: deedbot is not a working model of 1packetron omfg	[08:44]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger has it.	[08:44]
mircea_popescu:	in a word, no.	[08:45]
mircea_popescu:	how would you send otps to check to a person you don't know ?	[08:45]
mircea_popescu:	it does currently extend the courtesy of replying to unknowns, but this is not required.	[08:45]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform well yes restate the whole thing. apparently there's a knot somewhere.	[08:46]
asciilifeform:	enemy controls not only fleanode but most large isp, so it can send whatever string wherever.	[08:46]
mircea_popescu:	so ?	[08:46]
Framedragger:	ah, you mean that it could restrict sending challenges to gpg identities that it already knows about (l1 / l2 / whatever)?	[08:46]
mircea_popescu:	you still can't answer, for lack of a way to form your answer.	[08:46]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger i mean it already does this lol. necessarily.	[08:46]
mircea_popescu:	how would it send a challende encrypted to a key it does not have ?	[08:47]
asciilifeform:	so it is trivial exercise to determine where deedbot lives and - at least - syn flood it.	[08:47]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: pull the key. which it effectively does with the `register` command	[08:47]
asciilifeform:	syn flood is challenge enough, because tcp is braindamaged.	[08:47]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform that is an orthogonal concern which entirely does not belong in this discussion.	[08:47]
* Framedragger	contemplates a PoC `register` attack on deedbot	[08:47]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger but it dfoesn't HAVE to do that.	[08:47]
asciilifeform:	it is unfortunately not (yet) a separable concern.	[08:48]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: sure, that i admit.	[08:48]
mircea_popescu:	just because owner currently automated a hole into the ship doesn't mean that hole doesn't come with a pre-made hatch.	[08:48]
asciilifeform:	see, right now we have 'cheat' in the sense that fleanode allows mircea_popescu to manually control access to deedbot .	[08:49]
Framedragger:	then the argument does admittedly slide a little: yes okay, this is great that it can't be DoS'd that easily when the time comes and yet it still has to parse multiple packets before it determines that hey, i don't know this fingerprint.	[08:49]
mircea_popescu:	why multiple ?	[08:49]
asciilifeform:	it could easily stop tomorrow.	[08:49]
mircea_popescu:	"syn".	[08:49]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger seems to grasp my line of thought.	[08:50]
mircea_popescu:	what, you want him to represent you nao ?	[08:50]
Framedragger:	hm there is https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7413 for "send data in packet with syn flag already", in truth haven't touched it tho	[08:51]
asciilifeform:	i dun expect other folks to do my work in my place, no.	[08:51]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger aha.	[08:52]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: tcp is evil.	[08:52]
mircea_popescu:	sure also kinda besides teh point.	[08:52]
asciilifeform:	even if you stuff crypto sig into packet1	[08:52]
Framedragger:	is rfc7413 even supported by any tcp stack tho? (inb4 all tcp stacks must die!1 [not disagreeing in principle])	[08:52]
mircea_popescu:	(not to mention - you brought it up, entirely ungermane to the discussion, so you can't now detrimentally rely on it.)	[08:52]
asciilifeform:	it still has plaintext seq nums	[08:52]
Framedragger:	suresure.	[08:52]
asciilifeform:	and unsigned terminations	[08:53]
asciilifeform:	and ergo must die.	[08:53]
asciilifeform:	let's briefly gedankenexperiment:	[08:54]
asciilifeform:	say we gotta leave fleanode.	[08:54]
asciilifeform:	because it, say, burns down at last.	[08:55]
mircea_popescu:	how about we don't mix discussions of prototyping with discussion of random opsec challenges.	[08:55]
asciilifeform:	sketch the parachute here plox	[08:55]
mircea_popescu:	nobody afaik starts discussion of new car model with "Suppose the islamists invade our plant"	[08:55]
mircea_popescu:	what, you're going to make a tank ? "new from mercedes. six gun ports."	[08:56]
asciilifeform:	this digression is unfortunately needed. because it exposes the point i was making earlier.	[08:56]
asciilifeform:	fleanode gives us a cheap plastic imitation of gossipd currently.	[08:56]
mircea_popescu:	if we have to leave freenode before gossipd is ready we'll reimplement ircd.	[08:56]
asciilifeform:	reimplement in what sense ?	[08:56]
mircea_popescu:	in the sense of how we implemented log bots that work, on the basis of whatever was there before, which apparently didn't work, or at least didn't work as well or w/e.	[08:57]
asciilifeform:	and it will run on what? six dudes' servers ?	[08:58]
mircea_popescu:	no, you must be thinking of freenode.	[08:58]
mircea_popescu:	which, literally, six dude's servers, half of which provided by nsa.	[08:58]
asciilifeform:	whose locations will somehow remain unknown to enemy, hdds - unstolen , packets - unmangled ?	[08:58]
mircea_popescu:	we'll just use our servers in ft meade, what.	[08:58]
mircea_popescu:	get some of that lulzy "we know it's here but we can't turn it off because red tape" bonus going on.	[08:59]
asciilifeform:	i admit that i always liked that part.	[08:59]
asciilifeform:	though iirc this was in another mircea_popescutronic production	[08:59]
deedbot:	http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << Trilema - Industria Argentina, or my life among the tribal savages.	[08:59]
* asciilifeform	digs in hungrily	[09:00]
mircea_popescu:	but all this stuff aside, back to the important point here : the "gossipd-like" thing contemplated for moving signed material (ie, v stuff) around is very much a different beast from the actual gossipd, which doesn't work on signed material presumably doesn't work on tcp etc.	[09:00]
mircea_popescu:	now, taking a tiny incremental step by providing redundancy for v while at the same time trying a udp implementation si a very sensible move at this juncture.	[09:00]
mircea_popescu:	at least, it so appears to me.	[09:00]
mircea_popescu:	(redundancy for v - meant strictly in the sense of, an alternative to moving tarball by hand)	[09:01]
PeterL:	what keeps you from moving a signed message thorugh gossipd?	[09:01]
asciilifeform:	^	[09:01]
mircea_popescu:	that i don't intend to sign anything.	[09:01]
Framedragger:	semi-orthogonal (but not too orthogonal): ditching the conceptual level for a second and thinking about mundane reality, would a new transport layer even work given current internet infrastructure? there are problems with ICMP traffic on some ISPs (sure, ISPs should die anyway, and esp. those i hear you say.) this can be tested to some extent, hm.	[09:01]
mircea_popescu:	signatgures have their utility. they have been (perhaps deliberately, in any case stupidly) misused by the usg.cypherpunk "movement".	[09:01]
Framedragger:	s/transport layer/transport layer protocol/	[09:01]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: you signed vpatch. can as readily broadcast it via gossip as via fleanode etc.	[09:02]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger i dunno, it's pretty nebulous	[09:02]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform vpatch, yes. this line, no.	[09:02]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: aha	[09:02]
mircea_popescu:	it's not that i'm against signatures or anything of the sort. it's just that i understand their domain. an item is signed when the auctorial intention is "for this to stand now and forever to any and all who may come".	[09:02]
mircea_popescu:	this is pointedly not what gossipd does.	[09:03]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu-signed vpatch can be made known over whatever medium. shortwave, if he likes.	[09:03]
mircea_popescu:	gossipd does "for friends ears only". and the only way to make sure that can't happen, si by signing things. because once signed, they're definitionally for everyone equally well.	[09:03]
mircea_popescu:	in short, i oppose the socially destructuring, anti elitist and equalitarian nature of signatures.	[09:04]
asciilifeform:	much of what i've been doing in the mathematics room for past year has been to try to give this frying pan a handle.	[09:05]
asciilifeform:	yes, pan is hot. and hand - made of meat.	[09:05]
mircea_popescu:	myeah.	[09:05]
Framedragger:	btw wouldn't "nothing signed" gossipd reality actually be not "only among chosen clique" but rather "only chosen among clique [so, okay, not for all] plus whoever listens to internet backbone including all teh agencies"?	[09:06]
Framedragger:	(i am aware that proper gossipd doesn't have to run over internet)	[09:06]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger if you're not connected, how do you distinguish what was said from what might have been said from what wasn't actually said ?	[09:06]
mircea_popescu:	that's the otp-likeness contemplated, you know the place where this is discussed in the logs ?	[09:06]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: statistical models? sure, no guarantee.	[09:06]
Framedragger:	i think i actually remember it	[09:07]
mircea_popescu:	statistical models only work on statistical data. ie, flat.	[09:07]
mircea_popescu:	this isn't flat.	[09:07]
mircea_popescu:	it may be flattenable, and a large part of what we'll be doing is explore those graphs etc, but atm this is premature, we don't even have a prototype.	[09:07]
mircea_popescu:	(note however that "statistical models" are so horrible in doing simple things such as "election outcome" prediction as to not lend much credence to this theory.)	[09:08]
Framedragger:	maybe. and i agree that without prototype difficult to talk of this anyway	[09:08]
mircea_popescu:	but, importantly, statistics works on datapoints - which are each as much a datapoint as all the others ! this is major.	[09:09]
mircea_popescu:	in fact, it's even aware of this and it has some (primitive, axe hewn) methods to use the proper space to "improve" its data	[09:09]
mircea_popescu:	for instance by rejecting outliers in a set. what you're doing then, in proper terms, is saying "since we have all this space left in the hierarchy cube, how about we use it to improve the dataset while still pretending it's just a sheet"	[09:09]
mircea_popescu:	so you take a few points out.	[09:10]
Framedragger:	yes this is lulzy and a disservice and i agree the reputation is not insanely great.., so to speak.	[09:13]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: how about i (an nsa employee, say) just make a filter which grabs all observed gossipd traffic (packet timing or w/e, and if it's an actually new transmission protocol, then supreme joy is me) and send it for further analysis. i shall assume that while it's not certain which messages are legit and which are not, the offending t3rr0rist group is too lazy to transmit proper false positives to provide noise,	[09:13]
Framedragger:	besides, they'd get confused themselves, what with deliberately no message authenticity and we shall have a good time. am i stretching here?	[09:14]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger so you do everyone the favour of taking out the lazy "terrorist" groups ? thank you ?	[09:14]
mircea_popescu:	the point here isn't to make idiots more powerful.	[09:14]
mircea_popescu:	i dunno when or why the prevailing notion of "software" and "technology", at least in english and its dominions, became "it is for to make ordinary people (ie, rank imbeciles) like gods!"	[09:15]
Framedragger:	and gossipd without any auth whatsoever wouldn't really be that? in all honesty, i should reread the spec, which is probably outdated, and log search sucks, fml	[09:15]
mircea_popescu:	it... isn't. it fucking isn't. the point of technology is the complete and utter oppression of idiots.	[09:15]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: probably when the prometeus dude stole the fire?	[09:16]
asciilifeform:	was when.	[09:16]
mircea_popescu:	not really. there's no record that he went and gave it to retards.	[09:16]
asciilifeform:	'ooh, fire, now we are godz!1111'	[09:16]
Framedragger:	(or so the myth is interpreted anyway right?)	[09:16]
mircea_popescu:	on the contrary - he stole it to the sort of retards who'd pick the large pile of bones skins and fat	[09:16]
mircea_popescu:	and gave it to the smart guys who tohught to pile all the meat in the smalelr pile.	[09:16]
mircea_popescu:	zeus is not remarkably smart, you know.	[09:17]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger so the myth was reinterpreted, by later imbeciles, who don't even speak greek.	[09:17]
Framedragger:	true that. goes the extra way to fuck women, metamorphosis and all, so i'll give him that tho	[09:17]
Framedragger:	mircea_popescu: true..	[09:17]
mircea_popescu:	but anyway - the greek idea of gods doesn't have them as a sort of christian deity, omnipotent, all wise etc. it's not fucking allah.	[09:17]
mircea_popescu:	it's zeus, a sort of nero, the overpowerful lucky bastard.	[09:18]
asciilifeform:	this is kindergarten material - does anyone really misconceive zeus et al as 'allahs' ?!	[09:18]
mircea_popescu:	well apparently you jus' did, above ?	[09:19]
asciilifeform:	mno?	[09:19]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. prometeus stole from the dumb to give to the smart.	[09:19]
mircea_popescu:	which is exactly as it should be.	[09:19]
mircea_popescu:	obv, the dumb had something to steal the smart wanted. there'd be no story otherwise.	[09:19]
asciilifeform:	my point was that human tards also got fire.	[09:19]
mircea_popescu:	not originally.	[09:19]
mircea_popescu:	human tards wondered about greek fire for 12 centuries.	[09:20]
asciilifeform:	btw recall how turks captured intact and fueled-up siphons and went wtf ?	[09:20]
mircea_popescu:	aha	[09:21]
asciilifeform:	i always wondered	[09:21]
asciilifeform:	evidently there was something more to it than cranking the pump.	[09:21]
mircea_popescu:	yeah. "not being an imbecile".	[09:22]
asciilifeform:	even ww2 flamethrowers had tricky ignition.	[09:22]
asciilifeform:	it is the mega-problem of the item.	[09:22]
mircea_popescu:	the principal limit is in people's heads, not in the fucking reality surroundant.	[09:22]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform you know what also is tricky ? anal sex.	[09:22]
mircea_popescu:	they figured that out.	[09:22]
asciilifeform:	what's the trick?	[09:23]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538218 << btw i can tell from mircea_popescu's photo why it exploded.	[09:25]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 12:59 deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << Trilema - Industria Argentina, or my life among the tribal savages.	[09:25]
mircea_popescu:	tell ?	[09:25]
asciilifeform:	should i give it away, or did he already find the key that opens this chest.	[09:25]
mircea_popescu:	i expect poor insulation.	[09:25]
asciilifeform:	still got that beheaded wire?	[09:25]
mircea_popescu:	yeah	[09:25]
asciilifeform:	is it solid or stranded?	[09:25]
asciilifeform:	looks solid to me	[09:26]
mircea_popescu:	very thin stranded	[09:26]
mircea_popescu:	but sure, perfectly possible it narrowed over time	[09:26]
asciilifeform:	works same.	[09:26]
asciilifeform:	btw wire breaks, not as folks naively assume, from fatigue	[09:26]
asciilifeform:	it breaks from work hardening.	[09:27]
mircea_popescu:	point remains this is one of the most basic items of civilisation. it's been gotten right by most cultures throughout the many decades.	[09:27]
asciilifeform:	becomes brittle, like lathe cutter.	[09:27]
mircea_popescu:	except by these despicable monkeys.	[09:27]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i will inform you with great joy that apple power adapters die in this identical manner.	[09:28]
asciilifeform:	without exception.	[09:28]
asciilifeform:	and for past decade+.	[09:28]
mircea_popescu:	i never contested apple's a fucking zoo.	[09:28]
asciilifeform:	they have replaceable mains ends though, so the death happens on the low voltage dc side.	[09:28]
asciilifeform:	but looks quite the same.	[09:29]
asciilifeform:	and i mist dispute that 'others got right'. the ~correct~ wire for an item like this is ~coiled~ like old telephone cord. and is afaik available nowhere.	[09:30]
mircea_popescu:	nobody asks you to use the cheapest fucking potmetal you can find.	[09:30]
asciilifeform:	i was trying just the other week to buy for my cnc motors.	[09:30]
asciilifeform:	cannot be had.	[09:30]
asciilifeform:	at any price.	[09:30]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: it isn't the shitmetal in this case.	[09:31]
asciilifeform:	you need sane geometry.	[09:31]
asciilifeform:	avoid kink radius.	[09:31]
mircea_popescu:	sure, sure. a proper alloy saves you from shitty geometry, but you can't use zamac.	[09:31]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: wire is silver-coloured ?	[09:32]
asciilifeform:	hard to see on photo	[09:32]
mircea_popescu:	lulzy intro : ro construction codes throughout fully banned aluminum wiring, to the point they'd hang you.	[09:32]
mircea_popescu:	this went away. about the time the idiot us-style builders moved in.	[09:32]
mircea_popescu:	now they want to mandate sprinklers.	[09:32]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: even in usa they banned	[09:32]
mircea_popescu:	lemme cut that thing up	[09:32]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: also i must sadly point out that aluminum wire is a forced mistake -- copper price.	[09:33]
asciilifeform:	it will come back into the habitations of poorfags	[09:33]
asciilifeform:	inevitably. it'll be it -- or candlelight.	[09:33]
Framedragger:	[OT just for the record, it seems that rfc 7413 ("tcp fast open") won't do any good because (lo and behold) not only would it not save against syn floods, it'd actually introduce new attacks (2.2 and beyond). and existing mitigation techniques may not work. gotta love those people. yeah, fuck tcp.]	[09:34]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: not only tcp, but the horse it rode in on. whole thing must burn.	[09:35]
Framedragger:	[like, of course the only reason we want a spec which allows for data in initial syn packet is for shitphones to be able to load google ads quicker. use for security???! nowai]	[09:35]
asciilifeform:	tcp has no future, Framedragger .	[09:35]
asciilifeform:	shoot it in the head, pour cement.	[09:36]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: that's what i'm worried about, you may have to burn IP, too. and i'm all up for mesh networks and post nuclear radio, but kinda sucks that the whole internet backbone may be incompatible with proper gossipd, gotta admit.	[09:36]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: backbone is usable to the extent it can simulate radio.	[09:36]
asciilifeform:	i.e. connectionless passing of data.	[09:36]
Framedragger:	good perspective, i guess	[09:37]
asciilifeform:	where the source and destination are not known to one another spatially.	[09:37]
PeterL:	asciilifeform don't you know the future is wireless power? We won't need all this copper running through our houses once we make the tech breakthrough!	[09:37]
Framedragger:	just use apple's bluetooth earwaxphones	[09:38]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/argentina-is-populated-by-subhuman-monkeyspawn-4.jpg	[09:38]
asciilifeform:	PeterL: funnily enough, the tallow candle is wireless device, so the imbeciles ~will~ get their wish.	[09:38]
mircea_popescu:	oddly enough, they even went to the problem of copper-colouring it.	[09:38]
asciilifeform:	looks like copper from here.	[09:39]
PeterL:	and if you buy cheapo beef, there is lots of fat drippings to make candles with!	[09:39]
mircea_popescu:	it doesn't fucking behave like copper.	[09:39]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: copper with no strain relief will harden and snap just like any other metal.	[09:39]
mircea_popescu:	try doing this in practice with pure elemental copper.	[09:40]
asciilifeform:	they dun sell elemental metals at the metal yard.	[09:41]
mircea_popescu:	so shitty alloy. which is the point.	[09:41]
asciilifeform:	~useless	[09:41]
mircea_popescu:	also, pure coper comes native, if you live in a land that doesn't suck you can just get yourself a chunk from the local cave.	[09:41]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu is posting from time warp or wat.	[09:42]
asciilifeform:	the surface copper is gone.	[09:42]
mircea_popescu:	live in better places!	[09:42]
asciilifeform:	antarctica?	[09:42]
mircea_popescu:	altearthia.	[09:42]
asciilifeform:	hyperborea.	[09:43]
mircea_popescu:	or you know, bolivia.	[09:43]
asciilifeform:	i thought only elemental cocaine comes out of the ground there!	[09:43]
mircea_popescu:	gotta smoke it out of something...	[09:44]
mircea_popescu:	!~google cora-cora	[09:44]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: Cora Cora Restaurant: <http://www.coraperu.com/home.html> Cora Cora - 193 Photos & 143 Reviews - Latin American - 162 ...: <https://www.yelp.com/biz/cora-cora-west-hartford> Cora Cora Restaurant \| Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/Cora-Cora-Restaurant-129413390878/>	[09:44]
mircea_popescu:	ugh.	[09:44]
mircea_popescu:	!~google coro-coro	[09:44]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: CoroCoro Comic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoroCoro_Comic> # corocoro hashtag on Twitter: <https://twitter.com/hashtag/corocoro> Saturday: Pokémon Sun & Moon - CoroCoro Reveals + Zygarde ...: <http://www.serebii.net/news/2016/11-June-2016.shtml>	[09:44]
mircea_popescu:	ffs.	[09:44]
mircea_popescu:	it was something like this, uruk speak.	[09:45]
asciilifeform:	viruviru?	[09:45]
mircea_popescu:	nah lessee	[09:45]
mircea_popescu:	http://www.minclassics.com/cups810.php << here we go.	[09:46]
thestringpuller:	Framedragger: just use apple's bluetooth earwaxphones << Glad I'm not the only one who discovered despite who clean I try to keep the headphones. Earwax gunks up into the metal screens and inevitably fucks up the sound.	[09:47]
asciilifeform:	thestringpuller: clean with flux remover.	[09:47]
asciilifeform:	dry in the sun.	[09:48]
mircea_popescu:	earflux!	[09:48]
asciilifeform:	'Lastly, it must be noted that there hasn't been any significant amount of these specimens on the market in approximately 25 years, and they are often only found in old collections. Recently I was informed that a Korean mining company has started a large commercial operation at Corocoro, specifically mining for Copper, leaving little possibility that more of these specimens will available in the future, or at least until the mining op	[09:49]
asciilifeform:	i did say.	[09:49]
mircea_popescu:	aww	[09:50]
asciilifeform:	junkyard planet.	[09:50]
asciilifeform:	the new mines.	[09:51]
mircea_popescu:	in related news http://67.media.tumblr.com/12d82141a575dd183610da2c61886cf4/tumblr_njgwd4kuzi1scqgdto5_1280.jpg or i suppose http://66.media.tumblr.com/6f7147815385acbf1003d4029965f442/tumblr_njgwd4kuzi1scqgdto4_1280.jpg	[09:52]
mircea_popescu:	can't quite decide.	[09:52]
asciilifeform:	how did mircea_popescu even pick up this kink	[09:55]
mircea_popescu:	hm ?	[09:55]
asciilifeform:	the 'black deflorators' thing or what was it	[09:56]
asciilifeform:	so 18th c.	[09:56]
mircea_popescu:	how is it my kink ? i'm not the one living on the planet without copper deposits!	[09:56]
mircea_popescu:	though i suppose it should be a bunch of tiny azn dicks rather than one big one... hm...	[09:57]
asciilifeform:	dunno, when folks post pr0nz i generally picture that it exemplifies what gets them going. or at least isnt wholly unappetizing. then again we also have BingoBoingo's material.	[09:59]
asciilifeform:	so i have monumentally nfi.	[10:00]
PeterL:	I feel like BingoBoingo has not posted anything in a while ...	[10:00]
asciilifeform:	PeterL: perhaps he finally quit reddit	[10:00]
asciilifeform:	this is a healthy thing	[10:01]
shinohai:	!~later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1lmV	[10:03]
jhvh1:	shinohai: The operation succeeded.	[10:03]
asciilifeform:	in other noose, koch rolled out his 'wks' turd, http://www.golem.de/news/web-key-service-openpgp-schluessel-ueber-https-verteilen-1609-123194.html	[10:06]
thestringpuller:	there no news mr. PeterL	[10:10]
thestringpuller:	well fat news*	[10:11]
mod6:	Good news from lastnight: Was able to do some polishing and wrench turning to get the makefiles to utilize the pressed source in src/	[10:17]
mod6:	Will have some more to report on in a few days. Salud!	[10:17]
asciilifeform:	neato mod6	[10:18]
mod6:	o7	[10:18]
mod6:	interesting convo this am re: gossipd & v	[10:28]
asciilifeform:	mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys.	[10:30]
mod6:	<+mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present. << Sounds fair. Thanks for outlining this.	[10:30]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.	[10:30]
asciilifeform:	~how~ to do this in a protocolic (rather than promisetronic) way, is another matter.	[10:30]
asciilifeform:	but machines receiving, and responding to, packet matter signed by NO ONE, has NO future.	[10:31]
mod6:	<+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538037 << lel what has mircea_popescu been drinking...? << It is an intersting thought a distributed V, which rails against the complaints of "omfg another centralized piece of equipment!!11"	[10:33]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 10:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.	[10:33]
asciilifeform:	v as it presently exists (at least in my prototype) is 100% decentralized.	[10:33]
mod6:	indeed.	[10:34]
mod6:	and mine can be used, 100% in the same way. im not even sure that i fully agree that mine should do what it does. you and I both, seperately have wrestled with this thought.	[10:34]
mod6:	V has a future. interesting to think about where it may go from here.	[10:35]
mod6:	someday, when we have a tmsr cryptolib & rsa-o-matic, maybe we can starting building a gossipd prototype.	[10:36]
shinohai:	mircea_popescu may have inhaled toxic black smoke from poorly manufactured Argentine electronics mod6	[10:37]
mod6:	.ar does fab?	[10:38]
mod6:	lol	[10:38]
mod6:	oh wait, forgot about the wonky-fan	[10:38]
shinohai:	see >>> http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/	[10:39]
mod6:	yeah, forgot about that. anyway, i appreciate interesting ideas.	[10:39]
mod6:	a lot of new questions and discussions will arise once someone starts to prototype gossipd out.	[10:40]
shinohai:	I agree with trinque tho that V has a place in /usr/bin/local of the future	[10:41]
mod6:	well, indeed, if it continues to be useful and oft used.	[10:42]
mod6:	i need more coffee.	[10:42]
mod6:	<+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?	[10:51]
mod6:	maybe...	[10:53]
mod6:	i don't want to disagree with what I just said here: <+mod6> a lot of new questions and discussions will arise once someone starts to prototype gossipd out.	[10:53]
mod6:	but, maybe the first step, to recognize Framedragger, is to update the spec. there has been much discussion about this, and maybe I'm having a hard time keeping all of the details in my head.	[10:54]
mircea_popescu:	how's work mod6 ?	[10:54]
mod6:	boring.	[10:55]
mircea_popescu:	that's its job!	[10:55]
shinohai:	I take it your female java shadow isn't there?	[10:55]
mod6:	haha. indeed, hopefully will rid myself of these labors someday soon.	[10:55]
mod6:	shinohai: yup.	[10:55]
mircea_popescu:	come to think of it, is there such a thing as a gossipd spec even ? what's the current canonical version ?	[10:56]
mircea_popescu:	the two year old http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/ ?	[10:57]
mod6:	i'd have to dig it up, but i thought there was a trilema that outlined the 'spec' back a while ago.	[10:57]
mod6:	yah that, maybe.	[10:57]
mircea_popescu:	ok this is pretty scandalous.	[10:57]
mircea_popescu:	ima publish an updated thing, at least give discussion some sort of basis that's not 19 months out of date.	[10:57]
mod6:	very much appreciated, and my apologies if the original is still on point.	[10:58]
mircea_popescu:	marginally at best.	[11:00]
mod6:	more than anything, i just want to be able to contribue a bit better to these gossipd discussions - which will be a vital part of the infrastructure.	[11:02]
mod6:	thanks mircea_popescu	[11:02]
phf:	we had a thread about it two weeks ago, where the conclusion was that gossipd as written in the only available spec has all kinds of problems and shouldn't be implemented/used	[11:02]
mircea_popescu:	pretty much.	[11:03]
mircea_popescu:	(i just wrote that lol)	[11:03]
mod6:	phf: ah, indeed then, we should rework it with what we've since discussed and rethought since 2015 or whenever, and see if a prototyping process can begin.	[11:03]
phf:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529660 and http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529832	[11:04]
a111:	Logged on 2016-08-26 13:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529651 << ~tcp~ is evil, and i will kill it with my own hands. at least in the sense where i killed, e.g., git.	[11:04]
a111:	Logged on 2016-08-26 15:26 phf: btw is it possible to chosen-ciphertext attack gpg if it were to sit on the wire?	[11:04]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538426 << phf has own, and i have, and possibly other folks. but there remain unsolved problems.	[11:06]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 14:36 mod6: someday, when we have a tmsr cryptolib & rsa-o-matic, maybe we can starting building a gossipd prototype.	[11:06]
mod6:	huh, alright.	[11:07]
asciilifeform:	( and if i were satisfied that the problems are even ~separable~, i would not call them problems )	[11:07]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538437 << think of the current separation between ~people~ and ~geography~.	[11:09]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 14:51 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?	[11:09]
asciilifeform:	there is 'mod6' and 'castle of mod6'.	[11:09]
asciilifeform:	simply because something was said in the castle of mod6 , does not mean that it was he who said it.	[11:09]
asciilifeform:	what i've referred to as 'station key' is simply a nonspoofable substitute for the ip address.	[11:10]
asciilifeform:	and nowhere is it mandated that a station has only a sole key	[11:10]
mod6:	ah, alright.	[11:10]
phf:	(that idea is actually introduced in original gossip spec, but it's not obvious without rereading relevant bits a few times that it allows you to have secondary key	[11:10]
asciilifeform:	for so long as other stations can reliably communicate with it amidst arbitrary levels of enemy shitflooding	[11:10]
phf:	)	[11:11]
asciilifeform:	phf: aha, the 'for' item.	[11:11]
asciilifeform:	it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.	[11:12]
mod6:	and i suppose this makes it easier to swap out the station key and retain the royal key.	[11:12]
asciilifeform:	that is, can infer a link between a station key and royal key.	[11:12]
asciilifeform:	mod6: no lord in his right mind would connect his royal key to a machine that emits signed material autonomously.	[11:13]
asciilifeform:	(or deciphers autonomously)	[11:13]
asciilifeform:	this is kindergarten material.	[11:13]
mod6:	right. i think this whole topic is totally over my head these days.	[11:14]
mod6:	i better reread all of this stuff :/	[11:14]
asciilifeform:	mod6: presently it is a machine which contains a box labeled ???, which is the answer to a mathematical problem.	[11:14]
asciilifeform:	(attribution 'for us but not for them'.)	[11:14]
asciilifeform:	whereas 'attribution for no one' is the current net and whoever wants it, already has it.	[11:15]
asciilifeform:	and it is doomed to sybilatronic heat death.	[11:15]
asciilifeform:	earlier in thread, mircea_popescu pointed out - correctly - that signature is not the only form of cryptoauthentication, and that there is also challenge-response, a la deedbot etc.	[11:20]
asciilifeform:	but challenge-response requires 2way comms.	[11:21]
asciilifeform:	and violates the principle of nothing-to-allcomers.	[11:21]
asciilifeform:	(if all-comer can get a challenge, this not only makes you ddosable tcp-style, but turns your gossip net into a ddosatron weapon for any idiot who can get spoofed packets into it)	[11:21]
asciilifeform:	ntp-style.	[11:22]
asciilifeform:	and anyone who - like mircea_popescu earlier - states that 'but all-comer will ~not~ be able to request a challenge' is stuck explaining why not.	[11:22]
asciilifeform:	('because he does not know the ip to ask' is an idiot answer. you don't even need to be at ft meade, Framedragger's scanner could easily be modified to send a challenge req to entire ipv4 space every couple of hours.)	[11:23]
asciilifeform:	enemy must NOT have the ability to determine that an arbitrary ip contains a gossip node.	[11:24]
asciilifeform:	*determine whether	[11:24]
asciilifeform:	this is the basic nothing-to-allcomers principle. for wot - everything. for rando - NOTHING. not even 'challenge packet' or whatever.	[11:25]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538451 << it's good you acknowledge that, 'cause very time i want to point out "where's your $spec for $x guyz" i feel kinda shit 'cause i should do more, myself. which is a point. and yet the scandalocity remains!	[11:25]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 14:57 mircea_popescu: ok this is pretty scandalous.	[11:25]
Framedragger:	every*	[11:25]
asciilifeform:	a correctly-operating gossiptron must not be distinguishable from an unplugged cord , to anyone not in its peerage.	[11:28]
mod6:	asciilifeform: ah, ok.	[11:45]
mod6:	i follow.	[11:45]
mod6:	i'll have to reread all of this stuff i have difficulty with a mental model of this. but i do follow the detail points.	[11:46]
mod6:	the whole picture tho need the whole picture	[11:47]
mod6:	i'll work on that.	[11:47]
mod6:	i apparently need to read your blog more, at least, on the specifics of lisp-cpu via verilog & fpga	[11:48]
asciilifeform:	fortunately this is not related to gossipd...	[11:48]
mod6:	yah, totally a different ball of wax.	[11:49]
mircea_popescu:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ << plox to comment.	[11:49]
* asciilifeform	digs in.	[11:49]
* mod6	looks	[11:49]
mod6:	<+shinohai> see >>> http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << holy shit! (btw)	[11:52]
mircea_popescu:	yasrsly.	[11:53]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118902 << asciilifeform's note.	[11:57]
Framedragger:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538479 << wouldn't a simple nonce prevent against replay attacks (if you can call them that), tho? or did you refer to a case where the enemy attains the actual privkey of the station?	[11:58]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 15:12 asciilifeform: it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.	[11:58]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: there is nothing simple about it.	[11:59]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform i'ma be answering throughout teh day!	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: do you propose to keep track of all nonces used for all time ?	[11:59]
asciilifeform:	whereas if you make it incremental, you leak information that third parties have no business knowing.	[11:59]
Framedragger:	nonce + hmac? ah, but, hmac uses symmetric crypto oh noes :/	[12:00]
Framedragger:	hm.	[12:00]
Framedragger:	i am oversimplifying, i guess	[12:00]
Framedragger:	actually, nm. if you don't want to leak incremental info of this kind, i guess it does become more difficult	[12:01]
mircea_popescu:	it gets worse, the concept of "incremental" is undefined.	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	^	[12:02]
Framedragger:	asciilifeform: tho am not sure if it's necessarily bad, to leak incremental nonces. i mean, i know you don't want to leak one single useful bit to da enemy i don't know if it's a practical constraint, even if it is laudible.	[12:02]
Framedragger:	suresure.	[12:02]
Framedragger:	tcp seq id's again? :/ right.	[12:02]
asciilifeform:	Framedragger: idea is to leak 0.	[12:02]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger understand what the problem is here. it's not that you give away the secret number 40084059534. it's that you give away the fact that you and X both somehow live in a world where ++ means something.	[12:03]
asciilifeform:	especially not a useful tidbit such as 'how long node a and b have been in communion'	[12:03]
mircea_popescu:	this is necessarily not gossipd / bitcoin / p2p world.	[12:03]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu nails it.	[12:03]
Framedragger:	" 'how long node a and b have been in communion'" - right, that i can understand, that it's not good	[12:03]
Framedragger:	right.	[12:03]
mircea_popescu:	not even just how long. it's just a sort of coupling. "these two have a solution to us army general problem"	[12:04]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118905 << moar.	[12:07]
deedbot:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ << Trilema - [G]ossipd design document	[12:08]
mircea_popescu:	answer't.	[12:10]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118907 <<.	[12:11]
mircea_popescu:	answer't.	[12:15]
asciilifeform:	answrd'^2.	[12:17]
mircea_popescu:	again. lol. thisis getting ridoinculous.	[12:23]
mod6:	its a good dialogue though.	[12:24]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118911 << ok i warn, this is long.	[12:41]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform ping	[13:17]
* asciilifeform	digs in	[13:17]
mircea_popescu:	meanwhile on campus, http://67.media.tumblr.com/59b06563cbb62fbc525ded0c5f50f138/tumblr_my8992ECJW1rm1zwvo1_1280.jpg	[13:21]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: pong	[13:22]
mircea_popescu:	answer't.	[13:24]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118915 << .	[13:55]
mircea_popescu:	answer't.	[14:12]
asciilifeform:	answr't^2.	[14:17]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118918 << continuation.	[14:18]
phf:	at least this time annotations don't include 1000 line log excerpts	[14:20]
asciilifeform:	lol	[14:21]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[14:21]
mod6:	when you think it's a good idea, we can add a project to tb0t if it seems prudent.	[14:22]
mircea_popescu:	yeah. prolly too soon yet.	[14:23]
mircea_popescu:	aaand answered.	[14:23]
asciilifeform:	aaanswrd^3.	[14:28]
mircea_popescu:	aha.	[14:37]
asciilifeform:	^4.	[14:39]
mod6:	Nice thread!	[14:39]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118927 << ^5.	[14:49]
asciilifeform:	(continued.)	[14:55]
mircea_popescu:	ok this multi-comment thing is getting out of hand. why not just think the thing through and say it once.	[14:56]
asciilifeform:	i did.	[14:56]
asciilifeform:	and came to conclusion that there is a massive hole in the scheme sketched out in subj link, that i can drive a maersk cargo liner through.	[14:56]
mircea_popescu:	so far this isn't a shared view.	[14:59]
mircea_popescu:	anyways, i shall bbl!	[14:59]
asciilifeform:	answr'd.	[15:02]
asciilifeform:	as it stands, the cost to E of replaying any or all of the packets between A and B, or reordering, is 0.	[15:04]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu's answer appears to be 'lala can't hear you.'	[15:04]
asciilifeform:	this has not been an especially productive discussion.	[15:05]
asciilifeform:	E can ding A and B for less cost to himself than they incur from said ding. which is the elementary particle from which ddos is made.	[15:08]
asciilifeform:	(picture a weapon that kills the same POPULATION PERCENTAGE of the firer's army as of the enemy. it would be quite useless. any weapon requires asymmetry to work.)	[15:09]
asciilifeform:	and mircea_popescu's favorite rhetorical device is 'this is not relevant.' hey, it's the man's own blog, who am i to say that he has to consider my observations relevant. but this nonsense won't keep rainwater out of a tent, much less ft meade.	[15:11]
asciilifeform:	in approx. the sage's own words, 'piss in one hand, argument irrelevance in the other, see which one weighs more.'	[15:12]
asciilifeform:	and if i can describe (and i can) how the scheme can be broken WITHOUT breaking the cipher, then the cipher is decorative.	[15:13]
asciilifeform:	promisetronic.	[15:13]
asciilifeform:	just like the idiot 'tamper seals' that are trivially broken every day, not only by usg but by turd world pissant secret services, merely by penetrating the ENVELOPE.	[15:14]
asciilifeform:	( handy illustration : https://archive.is/dMwk5 )	[15:15]
asciilifeform:	in unrelated lulz, http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FAAF6A486AF408A503BF3AF87E4C646B05C79E50530D03BECB2F30A911C66EC5	[15:19]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118933 << encore.	[16:08]
asciilifeform:	and FOR FUCKS SAKE, rsa ciphertext LEAKS THE PUBKEY	[16:10]
asciilifeform:	this nails the whole scheme regardless of all other considerations.	[16:10]
asciilifeform:	we had this thread, what, 3 times.	[16:10]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu's scheme answers 'E infers key, floods A with megatonne of shit' with 'A renegotiates key with all of A's peers via magical channel that E cannot saturate with shit'	[16:14]
asciilifeform:	which is an epicycle	[16:14]
asciilifeform:	begs the question, why not simply communicate over this magical submarine cable to begin with ?	[16:15]
asciilifeform:	why use a medium where enemy can inject.	[16:15]
mircea_popescu:	o hey, three comments on trilema plus twenty lines here.	[16:38]
mircea_popescu:	is this ADD ?	[16:38]
mircea_popescu:	but in other news, took delivery of proper copper cord should be interesting to notice how this one never ever blows up.	[16:39]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118935 << aaand encore.	[16:50]
mod6:	mircea_popescu: your lady's hand looked ghastly. she should get to slap the first born of all of the industrial leaders in .ar.	[16:57]
mircea_popescu:	mod6 to her credit she didn't even piss self.	[17:00]
asciilifeform:	waiwat	[17:00]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform answert.	[17:00]
asciilifeform:	do they usually?!	[17:00]
mod6:	it looked as if someone lit off a M80 in her hand.	[17:00]
asciilifeform:	mod6: i'd expect some missing flesh then, neh ?	[17:01]
mircea_popescu:	yes, pissing self is common in a) women, especially if well used (in practice, this is often seen around childbirth) b) scared people, especially if young c) electricity mishaps, especially if high voltage.	[17:01]
mod6:	i don't know for sure. maybe "hand full of blackcats" or something. small firecrackers.	[17:01]
mircea_popescu:	so yes, a+b+c, pretty stacked deck.	[17:02]
mod6:	mircea_popescu: to her credit indeed. poor lady.	[17:02]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: i gotta ask, did the breaker blow ?	[17:02]
asciilifeform:	or do these, also, do something exciting and unexpected in the land of the pampas cat.	[17:03]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform i had them replaced them with sane items, so they cut power, yes.	[17:03]
mircea_popescu:	(there was a cold snap, and that place drew just about 19 amps consistently for days, i'm pretty sure)	[17:03]
mod6:	wow, that seems high.	[17:04]
mod6:	nevermind, im smoking crack	[17:05]
mircea_popescu:	it's you know.. not that high, 4kwh-ish.	[17:09]
mircea_popescu:	but houses are usually wired for 20	[17:09]
mircea_popescu:	because houses are not usually heated on electric power ffs.	[17:09]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: answr'd.	[17:09]
mircea_popescu:	!!rate deedbot 1	[17:10]
deedbot:	Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/9rjgi/?raw=true	[17:10]
mircea_popescu:	instead of pings, i shall now proceed to pronz. like so : http://67.media.tumblr.com/63e35b70e89db0293762942aa35cf992/tumblr_n06ukj9LrE1ruyp7wo1_1280.jpg	[17:16]
asciilifeform:	lol neat	[17:22]
mircea_popescu:	much to alf's relief, it's not a buncha baluba.	[17:22]
asciilifeform:	eh i am wooden inside, bad pr0nz dun do much.	[17:23]
mircea_popescu:	aww! wooden inside is not from a good lyfe.	[17:23]
asciilifeform:	has up-sides.	[17:23]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118939 << aaand moar.	[17:35]
mircea_popescu:	oh and in other-other news : mp decides maybe he wants to turn http://trilema.com/2016/just-call-me-annah/ into an art movie proceeds to call buenos aires studios and modelling agencies.	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	out of about thirty studios, twenty five respond, within a day mp has one dozen amply adequate locations for a casting.	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	out of about thirty agencies, five respond. mp is awestruck by just how retarded the people involved are.	[17:47]
mircea_popescu:	such disparitits.	[17:48]
deedbot:	http://cascadianhacker.com/fallon-smarts-murderer-out-on-bail << CH - Fallon Smart's Murderer Out On Bail	[17:52]
mircea_popescu:	ahahaha srsly, ben_vulpes uses T favicon ?	[17:59]
ben_vulpes:	ohey	[17:59]
ben_vulpes:	dafuq is a favicon anyways	[17:59]
mircea_popescu:	ikr ?	[17:59]
ben_vulpes:	anyways, fixd, ty	[18:00]
mircea_popescu:	best part about that ?	[18:01]
mircea_popescu:	"bail could be the full amount or 10% of the full amount" in small print.	[18:01]
mircea_popescu:	retail is for suckers amirite ?	[18:01]
ben_vulpes:	ja :D	[18:01]
ben_vulpes:	i wonder if you can get a bulk discount for getting your kids out of us.jail?	[18:02]
mircea_popescu:	depends. are you A and do you know B ?	[18:02]
ben_vulpes:	why now that you ask, no and no!	[18:02]
* ben_vulpes	will be damn reluctant to bail offspring out	[18:03]
ben_vulpes:	"what was the first rule? DON'T GET CAUGHT!"	[18:03]
mircea_popescu:	hopefully b v gets daughters, they get to be 16, call weekly "dad... i'm in jail... because i'm pregnant..."	[18:03]
mircea_popescu:	amusingly enough, the expression also was, "to get caught".	[18:03]
ben_vulpes:	any girls are getting implants, and the boys get a trip to india for the plastic	[18:04]
ben_vulpes:	weekly abortions yikes what a nightmare	[18:04]
mircea_popescu:	a trip to... hm. what ?	[18:04]
* mircea_popescu	was personally acquainted with lovely, bouncy redhead who got like a dozen in one year.	[18:05]
ben_vulpes:	isn't there some risk to stacking them like that?	[18:05]
mircea_popescu:	quite.	[18:05]
mircea_popescu:	if you keep scraping eventually you reach the outside you know.	[18:06]
ben_vulpes:	anyways, there's this porous not particularly bioreactive plastic some people think it fine to inject into the urethra	[18:06]
mircea_popescu:	o.O	[18:06]
ben_vulpes:	carries a positive charge, shreds sperm cell walls.	[18:06]
ben_vulpes:	er	[18:06]
ben_vulpes:	not urethra, surely.	[18:06]
mircea_popescu:	epididymus ?	[18:07]
ben_vulpes:	the cum-pipe, whatever that is.	[18:07]
ben_vulpes:	sure?	[18:07]
ben_vulpes:	anyways, can be flushed right out with a gentle solvent.	[18:07]
mircea_popescu:	sperm pipe. cum pipe is more like from prostate you know.	[18:07]
* ben_vulpes	does not!	[18:08]
mircea_popescu:	never cut up a penis ?	[18:08]
trinque:	penises, how do they work	[18:08]
jurov:	hydraulics!	[18:09]
mircea_popescu:	why hydraulics, it only has one head...	[18:09]
* trinque	now stuck imagining this stuff stuck in urethra	[18:11]
* mircea_popescu	recommends trinque undergo a recreational sounds session.	[18:11]
jurov:	http://www.medicaldaily.com/new-male-birth-control-sperm-switch-temporaily-sterilizes-men-flip-switch-368784 << yet better stuff to imagine	[18:11]
trinque:	mircea_popescu: hey that has a handle you can pull, or so I gather	[18:12]
mircea_popescu:	slowly, ideally.	[18:12]
jurov:	but ben_vulpes is proll going for remote activation by rsa sig via gossipd	[18:12]
mircea_popescu:	btw jurov mind protesting the heteronormative pronz a little bit, i need something to counterbalance alf!	[18:12]
ben_vulpes:	jurov: upside of the plastic is that it is porous and doesn't clog	[18:12]
mircea_popescu:	from what i've seen, the porous stuff and the porous stuff only clogs.	[18:13]
mircea_popescu:	kinda the definition of these terms, neh ?	[18:13]
jurov:	ben_vulpes: but no rsa signatures re involved!	[18:13]
ben_vulpes:	jurov: myeah i gave up on the cyberpunk dream of technology in my body a loooong time ago.	[18:13]
ben_vulpes:	heh i actually remember when it was! 'diamond age' has a great gag where the poors with shitty ocular implants have to suffer viral ads all day and go insane	[18:14]
mircea_popescu:	anyway, think of all the great stuff blockchain technologies allows, guise! you could have like, a satoshi dice based aviator's club, whereby the men all put their house keys in a pile and the women pick from there as previously, BUT whether the dick works or not is now blockchain lottery based!	[18:14]
mircea_popescu:	and all the resulting children can be called satoshi!	[18:14]
ben_vulpes:	viral in the sense of virii in the implants	[18:14]
mircea_popescu:	"the poors", check it out.	[18:15]
* mircea_popescu	likes the idea.	[18:15]
ben_vulpes:	mircea_popescu: "clog" here meaning that jurovs valve needs blowing off.	[18:16]
jurov:	ben_vulpes: unreleased sperm eventually just decays in the balls	[18:16]
mircea_popescu:	and to your detriment.	[18:16]
ben_vulpes:	something something alzheimers something something immune system	[18:17]
mircea_popescu:	something something like that.	[18:17]
ben_vulpes:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-08#1362586	[18:17]
a111:	Logged on 2016-01-08 00:12 asciilifeform: and even not considering this absurdity, you would have same problem as vasectomy patient (the sperm gets reabsorbed and your immune system begins to generate antibodies against it. with bonus measurable extra risk of alzheimer's)	[18:17]
ben_vulpes:	i did eventually run the citation down, 'twas some less than thirty old men with beginning signs of alzheimers who realized they all had vasectomies	[18:18]
asciilifeform:	ahahaha nice , asciilifeform doesn't need to crank the logtron, other folks will do it !111	[18:18]
asciilifeform:	if only this worked for everything else!	[18:18]
mircea_popescu:	you could just store all the sperm	[18:18]
ben_vulpes:	let's store all the sperm in the appendix	[18:19]
trinque:	would not blow my mind that this leads towards autoimmune disorders	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	great idea! it's predestined for it : appen-dicks	[18:19]
ben_vulpes:	lol	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	from old german to appen	[18:19]
trinque:	iirc there's speculation alzheimers is autoimmune	[18:19]
asciilifeform:	trinque, ben_vulpes : the first tipoff that one can immunologically zap own spermatozoids came not from alzheimer's patients, but from folks attempting to have vasectomy reversed	[18:19]
mircea_popescu:	did i drop the "prionic" alt-explanation in log or no ? i... can't recall ?	[18:20]
asciilifeform:	and who noticed that the reversal worked mechanically, but somehow ~0 spermatozoons made it to the other end.	[18:20]
trinque:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1377669	[18:21]
a111:	Logged on 2016-01-19 22:00 mircea_popescu: they recently discovered that it's quite likely alzheimer's is a prion based infectious disease,	[18:21]
mircea_popescu:	o ty!	[18:21]
* mircea_popescu	cranks trilema, discovers no stan replies, is baffled by this development.	[18:21]
asciilifeform:	lel	[18:21]
mircea_popescu:	it can't be that you're ~satisfied~ can it ?!	[18:22]
asciilifeform:	nope.	[18:22]
asciilifeform:	just that i only have 2handz.	[18:22]
mircea_popescu:	and another myth shatters.	[18:22]
asciilifeform:	free.	[18:22]
mircea_popescu:	"kyle go clean your room this instant!" "sorry mom, i... i... i malloc'd my hands and i think there were some double free's in there or something!"	[18:23]
mircea_popescu:	"i can't find my hands."	[18:23]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118941 << there you go.	[18:26]
mircea_popescu:	btw, speaking of this : any chance one of the bot masters wants to add a "subscribe to comments" option ? whereby i go !~subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/ and it pings me whenever there's new ones ?	[18:27]
mircea_popescu:	seems kinda doofy to do this by hand.	[18:27]
asciilifeform:	fortunately this is not an exercise we repeat very often.	[18:28]
trinque:	I can just throw it in the RSS list	[18:28]
jurov:	i found whole discussion too funny, had to throw some 2c in on trilema	[18:29]
trinque:	actually, can add !!subscribe for L1 which adds to RSS list, and then can be used for this or anything else that arises	[18:29]
* ben_vulpes	simply subscribed to the trilema comments feed	[18:30]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform possibly more often as time goes by because the problem of sorting things by topics is becoming more pressing.	[18:35]
mircea_popescu:	trinque but ideally it just pms the subscribers see	[18:36]
mircea_popescu:	ben_vulpes i'm not using a rss-tron anymore bots ruined me for it.	[18:36]
trinque:	ah, possible with current feed eater.	[18:36]
trinque:	it has a notion of to whom to send	[18:37]
ben_vulpes:	mircea_popescu: you know standing up a trinquebot isn't terrifically difficult	[18:37]
mircea_popescu:	yeah tru.	[18:37]
mircea_popescu:	trinque nice, say when	[18:37]
jurov:	on second thought ... oops i inadvertently supported my point by leaking s3cr3t trilema email :( feel free to censor it	[18:39]
mircea_popescu:	jurov you might have noticed it's not even in the contact list anymore.	[18:39]
jurov:	aok	[18:39]
* mircea_popescu	had girl swallow his cufflink (accidentally!), took her earrings in restitution. discovered that he kinda likes earring cufflinks.	[18:41]
mircea_popescu:	such barbarian.	[18:41]
ben_vulpes:	how, praytell, does one swallow a cufflink accidentally?	[18:42]
mircea_popescu:	it was one of those things.	[18:42]
shinohai:	Did you get your cufflink back mircea_popescu ?	[18:43]
mircea_popescu:	not so far.	[18:43]
* shinohai	imagines many hours and a bottle of castor oil later ......	[18:43]
mircea_popescu:	naah	[18:44]
mircea_popescu:	swallowing cufflinks accidentally not on the castor oil list of bad girl behaviours	[18:44]
ben_vulpes:	put girl through sifter until cufflinks emerge	[18:45]
mircea_popescu:	she can keep it.	[18:45]
shinohai:	"geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"	[18:46]
ben_vulpes:	feed cufflinks to girl, put girl in polisher	[18:46]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[18:47]
mircea_popescu:	tumbler	[18:47]
ben_vulpes:	putting girl in tumblr is a different hobby	[18:47]
ben_vulpes:	put /dick/ in girl, put girl in tumblr.	[18:47]
ben_vulpes:	voila, polished dick.	[18:47]
mircea_popescu:	hm	[18:47]
mircea_popescu:	this new learning amazes me.	[18:47]
ben_vulpes:	and no lsd even	[18:48]
mircea_popescu:	eh, considering where you live, it's prolly in the tap water by now	[18:48]
* ben_vulpes	off to contemplate burning another fortune chasing a larger fortune	[18:48]
mircea_popescu:	like estrogen in washington dc	[18:48]
ben_vulpes:	no that's floride, which is just as hallucinogenic as nitrous	[18:48]
asciilifeform:	http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118946 << moar fun.	[18:48]
* ben_vulpes	off to burn a fortune in a fit of pique	[18:48]
deedbot:	http://qntra.net/2016/09/parasitic-flatworm-named-to-honor-hussein-bahamas/ << Qntra - Parasitic Flatworm Named To Honor Hussein Bahamas	[19:00]
mircea_popescu:	!!up vinimore	[19:09]
deedbot:	vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:09]
vinimore:	hi, I found a post in a blog about Eulora	[19:09]
vinimore:	in a forum*	[19:09]
vinimore:	$register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D	[19:10]
thestringpuller:	!~seen shinohai	[19:10]
jhvh1:	thestringpuller: shinohai was last seen in #trilema 24 minutes and 9 seconds ago: <shinohai> "geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"	[19:10]
vinimore:	Shinohai! you're the guy that I'm looking for!	[19:10]
shinohai:	hi vinimore try comand again but replace $ with !!	[19:11]
vinimore:	!!register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D	[19:11]
deedbot:	Import failed for 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D.	[19:11]
mircea_popescu:	give it ten minutes	[19:13]
shinohai:	also o/ thestringpuller	[19:15]
phf:	$seen shinohai	[19:16]
a111:	2016-09-09 <shinohai> also o/ thestringpuller	[19:16]
mircea_popescu:	lolwut.	[19:17]
shinohai:	$unsee	[19:17]
mircea_popescu:	phf !# plox.	[19:17]
phf:	mircea_popescu: a111's been using $ for search though for a while now	[19:17]
mircea_popescu:	well yeah.	[19:17]
mircea_popescu:	erryone's been using various things for a while.	[19:18]
shinohai:	The Bickening II	[19:18]
mircea_popescu:	lol	[19:18]
mircea_popescu:	BingoBoingo "In a twist of irony sure not lost to Qntra readers" ?	[19:20]
mircea_popescu:	"now has the honor of having" ? eh cmon!	[19:21]
* mircea_popescu	looks at shinohai lookingly through his looksee	[19:21]
shinohai:	Not my finest submission	[19:21]
BingoBoingo:	ty, fxd	[19:21]
phf:	mircea_popescu: so you're saying i should change $s too?	[19:24]
mircea_popescu:	change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.	[19:24]
* shinohai	thanks BingoBoingo for his patience as editor	[19:25]
phf:	i see	[19:25]
mircea_popescu:	deedbot got !!, jhvh1 got !~ and further bots will get further of these until we run out and move on to #? etc.	[19:25]
phf:	can i nuke all control sequences and have $s exclusively as an equivalent two character operation?	[19:26]
mircea_popescu:	but...why ?	[19:26]
phf:	well, i think that a111 has only one responsibility, and that's searching though log, whatever else is added is superfluous, but $s's been internalized by, among other people, asciilifeform. i'd rather not see "$s ... ??? ffs!"	[19:29]
mircea_popescu:	well if you do see it you can just point at me.	[19:29]
shinohai:	!~die	[19:29]
jhvh1:	You have died of dysentery	[19:29]
phf:	i see	[19:30]
vinimore:	!!register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D	[19:31]
deedbot:	17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D registered as vinimore.	[19:31]
mircea_popescu:	cool.	[19:31]
mircea_popescu:	!!key vinimore	[19:31]
deedbot:	http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/dhisy/?raw=true	[19:31]
vinimore:	what do I do now?	[19:32]
shinohai:	wait, mircea_popescu is making you an account vinimore	[19:33]
shinohai:	should be just a sec	[19:33]
vinimore:	alright :)	[19:33]
thestringpuller:	/wind 3	[19:33]
thestringpuller:	FUCKING IRSSI	[19:33]
trinque:	I hate when it puts a space in front too	[19:33]
mircea_popescu:	vinimore http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/as1hg/?raw=true	[19:33]
* shinohai	didn't know Irssi was still in use	[19:34]
mircea_popescu:	im pretty sure mirc is still in use	[19:34]
shinohai:	!!up vinimore	[19:39]
deedbot:	vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.	[19:39]
vinimore:	okay, I'm creating my char	[19:40]
trinque:	!!subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/	[19:41]
deedbot:	trinque subscribed to http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/	[19:41]
trinque:	inb4 oh shit I gotta add threads to the rssatron nao	[19:41]
trinque:	mircea_popescu: enjoy!	[19:41]
trinque:	et al	[19:42]
mircea_popescu:	o hey!	[19:49]
mircea_popescu:	there was something else but now i forget wtf	[19:49]
mircea_popescu:	oh oh! pastebin key bypassing sks ?	[19:49]
mircea_popescu:	!!subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/	[19:49]
deedbot:	mircea_popescu subscribed to http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/	[19:49]
mircea_popescu:	inb4 "there's no way to unsubscribe ha-ha!"	[19:49]
trinque:	lol, that one's coming in a minute! measure twice subscribe once (TM) (R)	[19:50]
mircea_popescu:	<3 ya	[19:51]
mircea_popescu:	holy shit it has a by :	[19:55]
mircea_popescu:	epic.	[19:55]
mircea_popescu:	trinque if / when you implement the wallet thing you can even charge for this. i'd pay!	[19:58]
trinque:	cool. wallet will come. for now, loss leader.	[19:58]
mircea_popescu:	first ever paid-for-rss microtransactions etc.	[19:59]
shinohai:	!!deedbot tip trinque 1 bitcent	[19:59]
thestringpuller:	~_~	[19:59]
shinohai:	:D	[20:00]
thestringpuller:	!!deedbot tip trinque 1 beer	[20:00]
thestringpuller:	we invented changetip!	[20:00]
trinque:	howdareyou	[20:00]
trinque:	paying for services is different!11!!!	[20:00]
trinque:	lol	[20:00]
thestringpuller:	oh man i forgot to put my homage to the dreamcast up before 9/9 ended.	[20:01]
mircea_popescu:	hooly crap, /me just realises that mp-wp actually has	[20:03]
mircea_popescu:	http://trilema.com/comments/feed/ !!11	[20:03]
mircea_popescu:	this is shockingly useful, like those corner ramps disabled people wanted put in and then everyone just loved them	[20:04]
mircea_popescu:	!~subscribe http://trilema.com/comments/feed/	[20:04]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: Error: "subscribe" is not a valid command.	[20:04]
mircea_popescu:	!!subscribe http://trilema.com/comments/feed/	[20:04]
deedbot:	mircea_popescu subscribed to http://trilema.com/comments/feed/	[20:04]
mircea_popescu:	this whole thing just became perceptibly more useful!	[20:04]
shinohai:	What were specs for a bot wallet anyway? There was a cruddy one written by gribble's author I started to hook to trb one time but never finished	[20:06]
mircea_popescu:	it's supposed to keep a balance for you and make payments. exactly same mechanics as rating, which is how i dumped on trinque.	[20:06]
mircea_popescu:	no rule that there can only be one, however on the contrary.	[20:07]
trinque:	more redundancy the better. these facilities end up being what's available on a particular gossipd node, as I see it	[20:07]
mircea_popescu:	the more the merrier	[20:07]
trinque:	that said shinohai pls do not hook a cruddy anything to your trb for your own sake.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu:	trinque soonish we'll end up with a sort of space sim, "you dock to station trinque, here's what's available"	[20:08]
shinohai:	no trinque that's why I abandoned it, it was just garbage, I thought I'd be better off to start from scratch.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu:	but in other news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/eb09ab99ab8cfa8ea8f5c09effa2c430/tumblr_myizcpkiAy1stdt0mo1_250.gif	[20:09]
trinque:	could think of it like bitcoin is a corrosive that will find its way out of the container if it can	[20:09]
thestringpuller:	trinque: store bitcoin like you would nuclear waste. the true asciilifeform method!	[20:14]
trinque:	a very brief overview is that there is one deposit address, encrypted OTPs are archived elsewhere as they are sent to transactors, then deeded, and withdrawals involve a human walk over the account history before dispatching a txn.	[20:14]
mod6:	my new vpatch, as we discussed lastnight works perfectly.	[20:19]
mod6:	im also going to use this vpatch to tag the release and tie up the leafs.	[20:20]
mod6:	http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4bm0m/?raw=true	[20:28]
mod6:	alright. now we'll begin a testing cycle. when we're done with that, will sign and publish vpatch.	[20:28]
mircea_popescu:	nice work mod6	[20:36]
mod6:	thanks Mr. P. :]	[20:36]
phf:	(test)	[21:51]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538879 << oh hey... did ben_vulpes , co-chairman, ever sign a vpatch..?	[21:56]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-10 00:28 mod6: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4bm0m/?raw=true	[21:56]
asciilifeform:	i could've sworn he wrote >=1	[21:56]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538866 << why not also drown your children for you.	[21:58]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-10 00:06 mircea_popescu: it's supposed to keep a balance for you and make payments. exactly same mechanics as rating, which is how i dumped on trinque.	[21:58]
asciilifeform:	$@drown useless_son	[21:58]
asciilifeform:	etc.	[21:58]
asciilifeform:	'oops i meant - 'down' not 'drown' !'	[21:58]
phf:	asciilifeform: i don't have any vulpes sigs either..	[21:59]
asciilifeform:	'drownbot hands you a broomstick.'	[21:59]
asciilifeform:	phf: i have one for upnp removal but it is pre-v	[21:59]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538801 << wai.	[22:01]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-09 23:24 mircea_popescu: change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.	[22:01]
asciilifeform:	i dun get it.	[22:01]
mod6:	yeah, ben has never signed anything.	[22:02]
asciilifeform:	not a vpatch, at ant rate.	[22:03]
asciilifeform:	any rate	[22:04]
asciilifeform:	afaik.	[22:04]
asciilifeform:	i like ben_vulpes but he has not been catching mice.	[22:04]
shinohai:	From the krypton mines: http://www.labitconf.com/	[22:05]
shinohai:	mircea_popescu should go and flip tables.	[22:06]
trinque:	asciilifeform: how to do micropayments for deeds and rss notifications without a wallet?	[22:13]
asciilifeform:	you don't, micropayments are braindamaged.	[22:14]
trinque:	mkay	[22:14]
asciilifeform:	and robots in charge of money are a recipe for tears.	[22:14]
asciilifeform:	if something merits paying for, it merits macropaying. by human.	[22:15]
trinque:	no deedbot for you then.	[22:15]
trinque:	it runs off an address that has been slowly dwindling 0.1btc	[22:16]
asciilifeform:	i'll gladly take turn filling it.	[22:16]
trinque:	no no	[22:16]
trinque:	I'm saying it is a robot handling money	[22:16]
asciilifeform:	not same thing as a payerbot by any means.	[22:16]
trinque:	did you see what I wrote above about it?	[22:17]
mod6:	<+asciilifeform> not a vpatch, at ant rate. << fair distinction	[22:18]
asciilifeform:	point plox	[22:18]
* trinque	will need to actually blog about it	[22:18]
asciilifeform:	trinque: i promise to read.	[22:18]
trinque:	should be possible to confirm that all transactions were authorized by end user before moving any actual btc	[22:18]
trinque:	and this on airgapped machine	[22:18]
* trinque	will write	[22:18]
asciilifeform:	mod6: this merits a thread imho. it is not reasonable to ask that every ablebodied fella WRITE a useful patch. but why not READ ?	[22:19]
asciilifeform:	it is something ~everyone here can usefully do.	[22:20]
mod6:	well, i don't wanna speak for ben_vulpes, but iirc he's read most of them if not all maybe just didn't get around to signing for lack of time because of baby, and running company.	[22:21]
asciilifeform:	i was wondering if he has actual reservations.	[22:21]
mod6:	again, don't wanna speak for the man however, don't think he has any at this point.	[22:22]
mod6:	ben_vulpes: Sir, please weigh in here when you get a spare moment. ^	[22:22]
asciilifeform:	i suppose we can ask him when he next crosses orbit with us.	[22:22]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160910/#49 << it's a convention, nothing to get really.	[22:31]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-10: [02:01:24] <asciilifeform> i dun get it.	[22:31]
mircea_popescu:	http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160910/#56 << what, so i'd be the only bitcoiner there ?	[22:32]
scriba:	Logged on 2016-09-10: [02:06:08] <shinohai> mircea_popescu should go and flip tables.	[22:32]
* shinohai	snickers, told covertress this when she invited him	[22:33]
shinohai:	I have no interest in that shit	[22:33]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. argentina is a fine place for it, more derpy posers per square mile here than almost anywhere in the world.	[22:34]
mircea_popescu:	o look, there'sa "coinbr founder".	[22:35]
mircea_popescu:	epic.	[22:35]
shinohai:	I wonder what are the Bitpay people on schedule for, gonna give a speech on how to get hacked?	[22:40]
mircea_popescu:	somebody's gotta chip in for all those uber rides.	[22:40]
shinohai:	Oh wait, that's the guy that got phished and scammed out of like 1.8 million I think.	[22:40]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform can you explain your problem with micropayments any more articulately than "i don't understand this" ?	[22:41]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538943 << didn't the 'cup of coffee' thread happen long before i showed up even ?	[22:50]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-10 02:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you explain your problem with micropayments any more articulately than "i don't understand this" ?	[22:50]
* asciilifeform	brb - meat.	[22:51]
mircea_popescu:	sure but i don't think trinque was proposing the purpose of bitcoin is micropayments.	[22:55]
trinque:	I even said once "so then build Visa on bitcoin"	[22:55]
trinque:	re: coffee	[22:55]
trinque:	$s from:trinque visa	[22:55]
a111:	4 results for "from:trinque visa", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Atrinque%20visa	[22:55]
* mircea_popescu	is seriously contemplating the problem of subtleties.	[22:57]
mircea_popescu:	what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.	[22:58]
mircea_popescu:	seems a significant chunk of disputes arise from misapprehension rather than a genuine difference of opinion an' what's worse, seems to me the trend is upwards.	[22:59]
mircea_popescu:	amusingly enough, this is exactly work hardening for social groups and for that matter how parties are born.	[23:00]
trinque:	people eventually find out that perhaps the reasons they agreed were different!	[23:01]
trinque:	there's another thing in there too, appropriately subtle. idiot taint, or something.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu:	i suppose humani nihil a respublica puto.	[23:02]
trinque:	satan touched this it is infected.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu:	makes satan's job kinda easy.	[23:02]
trinque:	doesn't it though.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu:	it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.	[23:03]
mircea_popescu:	you'd expect he'd be unable to get out of bed. i guess there's missing ingredients in the formula.	[23:04]
mircea_popescu:	but in any case the same tongue that licked tcp/ip also licked all of washington dc, not to mention etc.	[23:04]
mircea_popescu:	anyway. for one thing - transaction fees are micropayments like it or not, that's what they are, in the exact sense contemplated for deedbot.	[23:06]
thestringpuller:	later tell pete_dushenski I have a car dilemma. I can't figure out what model Cadillac this is. If I send you pics could you decipher?	[23:06]
thestringpuller:	GRRRRRRR	[23:06]
trinque:	the public ledger did not cancel private accounting	[23:06]
thestringpuller:	!~later tell tell pete_dushenski I have a car dilemma. I can't figure out what model Cadillac this is. If I send you pics could you decipher?	[23:06]
jhvh1:	thestringpuller: The operation succeeded.	[23:06]
thestringpuller:	:P	[23:06]
mircea_popescu:	moreover, nobody said the deedbot wallet is to be restricted to micropayments. that's obviously the angle to solve, from an engineering pov but to then on that infer that it is ONLY for such is silly.	[23:06]
thestringpuller:	don't micropayments normally amount to spam?	[23:09]
thestringpuller:	there's a reason I don't pay for my groceries in pennies...	[23:09]
trinque:	with a one megabyte block to serve the whole world's 10min of txn, your groceries are a fucking micropayment.	[23:10]
mircea_popescu:	thestringpuller the whole point is that if i want to pay deedbot 100 satoshi for whatever, i'd rather have this as an offchain txn than as a blockchain spam tx	[23:10]
mircea_popescu:	eulora provides a convenient way to do this but there's no rule one gotta use THAT particular solution.	[23:13]
trinque:	mircea_popescu knows better than anyone here that bitcoin did not cancel derived instruments of value.	[23:13]
trinque:	one of the coolest things here is that the wallet can guarantee someone shall be paid	[23:13]
trinque:	in the future	[23:13]
mircea_popescu:	how do you mean ?	[23:13]
mircea_popescu:	in any case, just think how cool it'd have been if i could have paid all these eulora noobs getting bitcents via bot directly.	[23:15]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538953 << let's have a working definition of a 'micro' payment.	[23:16]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-10 02:58 mircea_popescu: what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.	[23:16]
thestringpuller:	trinque: kind off target for my point. throwing change at someone for any purpose tends to devolve into spam.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform less than the price of a working nuclear submarine with all the trims.	[23:16]
asciilifeform:	i propose that 'micro' is any payment where the tx fee is within an order of magnitude of the payload.	[23:16]
thestringpuller:	cuz it takes work to consolidate it into bigger chunks	[23:16]
thestringpuller:	i see this as a deframentation problem than anythin (hence why i also consolidate inputs in an address before they become dust)	[23:16]
asciilifeform:	y'know, like 'mortar' used to refer to a cannon where the caliber is within order of magnitude of the length.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu:	mortar is not defined by that criteria. there is cannon with narrower ratio than mortar.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu:	the definition of the mortar is the angle./	[23:17]
asciilifeform:	today.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu:	even historically.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu:	fires under pi/4, cannon. fires over, mortar.	[23:18]
asciilifeform:	https://www.city.takeo.lg.jp/rekisi/english/img/p-mortar.jpg << illustrative .	[23:18]
mircea_popescu:	there's alternatively "selfpriming projectile" vs "firing mechanism"	[23:18]
asciilifeform:	~that~ is solely 20th c.	[23:19]
mircea_popescu:	yeah.	[23:19]
asciilifeform:	but to revisit subj, i suggest that 'micro' roughly would be any payment where the coefficient of fee / payload is in the neighbourhood of (or even above!) 1.0.	[23:20]
* trinque	is still writing response to earlier question, but who are you to say what the price of anything is?	[23:20]
mircea_popescu:	this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.	[23:20]
trinque:	"below this amount is not worth it so sez guy on internet"	[23:21]
asciilifeform:	trinque: i can say when a deal is a bum deal and i won't take.	[23:21]
trinque:	so don't take	[23:21]
asciilifeform:	just like i won't buy an engine with 1% coefficient of useful work.	[23:21]
asciilifeform:	it can go and sadly rust somewhere else, in some other fool's garage.	[23:21]
trinque:	you know, paying for things solves a great deal of the world's got-something-for-showing-up problems	[23:21]
asciilifeform:	if i wanted to pay 50% fee, i'd go to western motherfucking union.	[23:21]
trinque:	you realize first data does 2tn/yr in transactions ?	[23:22]
trinque:	do you even have any idea how much money moves around per day?	[23:22]
asciilifeform:	well yes, because p. t. barnum.	[23:22]
thestringpuller:	well that's a misconception trinque	[23:22]
trinque:	no, it's not.	[23:22]
mircea_popescu:	the only problem here asciilifeform is that you have a firm opinion about an item you've not bothered to understand and the opinion is spit-glued on what may be the effigy of a live hyena except it's a stone gargoyle.	[23:22]
thestringpuller:	cause first data actually off loads most of those	[23:22]
* thestringpuller	worked for first data	[23:22]
asciilifeform:	mcdonalds also does trillion or whatever per day.	[23:22]
trinque:	the number of transactions not the damned unit	[23:23]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: what aspect do you suggest i failed to understand ?	[23:23]
thestringpuller:	iirc first data was bought by someone for debt and for many years was used as a tax writeoff since it delcared 0 profit	[23:23]
trinque:	what in the fuck does that have to do with how many transactions they process	[23:24]
mircea_popescu:	deedbot is intended to have a wallet so i can deposit a whole btc with it and then pay it a little bit whenever rather than have to send multiple transactions. THIS particular aspect of "microtransactions" is rather opposite to the common conception thereof.	[23:24]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1539002 << i must point out that this is a strictly temporary situation. miners have ZERO incentive to mine 'old coinbase tx' for 0fee.	[23:24]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-10 03:20 mircea_popescu: this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.	[23:24]
asciilifeform:	it is a plainly dumb thing to do from their pov.	[23:24]
mircea_popescu:	yawell.	[23:24]
trinque:	lets dance around everywhere because we don't understand how actual payments occur in the world, and are used to criticizing the ass-clowns in the bitcoin space.	[23:24]
asciilifeform:	trinque: what aspect, again, am i failing to understand ?	[23:25]
mircea_popescu:	o.O	[23:25]
thestringpuller:	trinque: from my understanding working there, the payments were offloaded based on bank.	[23:25]
mircea_popescu:	did i just not type all that ?	[23:25]
thestringpuller:	Yea 2015 metrics say 79 billion transactions processed	[23:26]
thestringpuller:	although most CC tx's go through first data i don't thin they process them all	[23:26]
asciilifeform:	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538962 << the way this knot is cut is that there are 2 usg, the one that delivers my mail every couplea weeks to the house across the street, and the other one. and i don't give a flying fuck what the dumb one licked.	[23:29]
a111:	Logged on 2016-09-10 03:03 mircea_popescu: it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.	[23:29]
mircea_popescu:	a right, i forgot teh splitting.	[23:30]
mircea_popescu:	who/what belongs to which also changes amirite ?	[23:30]
asciilifeform:	i also do not care what the other one licked if i actually grasp subj. e.g., i don't give a fuck that it produced ada.	[23:30]
asciilifeform:	i don't do ritualistic epidemiology.	[23:30]
mircea_popescu:	well then!	[23:31]
trinque:	how is the proposed item different than any other accounting	[23:31]
trinque:	you paid your gym bill in advance for the month you get to come in for the whole damn month	[23:31]
trinque:	and before that, oh my god, I'm holding your money	[23:31]
asciilifeform:	trinque: nothing wrong with that	[23:31]
trinque:	I might even lose it all and close shop, and then no gym for you	[23:31]
trinque:	then in sanity land you come burn me at the stake	[23:32]
asciilifeform:	attempting to bill the gym per-minute, with a 0.1 fee tx every minute, would be braindamaged though.	[23:32]
mircea_popescu:	why ?	[23:32]
mircea_popescu:	oh with a fee. no fee!	[23:32]
asciilifeform:	why no fee ?	[23:32]
asciilifeform:	why the hell would anyone mine these, other than if his mother dropped him as a child.	[23:32]
mircea_popescu:	cuz deedbot keeps its own accounts. no mining. they're not even reported.	[23:32]
trinque:	we were talking about a bot!	[23:32]
asciilifeform:	i never got the 'old coin' thing.	[23:33]
asciilifeform:	own accounts != bitcoin micropayment.	[23:33]
asciilifeform:	i only have objection to the latter.	[23:33]
trinque:	omaigad	[23:33]
asciilifeform:	keeping local bar tab is not 'micropayment'.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu:	hence my comment about "not bothered to understand"	[23:34]
asciilifeform:	sooo thread was not in fact about camel shit but cookies sweet ?	[23:34]
asciilifeform:	aite.	[23:34]
mircea_popescu:	rather.	[23:34]
mircea_popescu:	!~google hrotsvitha	[23:36]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: Hrotsvitha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrotsvitha> Hrotsvitha von Gandersheim - Women's History - About.com: <http://womenshistory.about.com/od/medgermansaints/p/hrotsvitha.htm> Hrotsvitha of Gandersheim – FREE Hrotsvitha of Gandersheim ...: <http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3446400099.html>	[23:36]
mircea_popescu:	not a bad name huh.	[23:37]
trinque:	thestringpuller: I was establishing some ways to measure the current throughput of the world's financial system, not crediting any particular entity with this throughput.	[23:39]
trinque:	kill half the earth, you could still have a world where 1mb blocks do not hold all the financial exchange	[23:40]
trinque:	this is fine	[23:40]
mircea_popescu:	well looky, consumer payments aren't really financial exchange. they're you know, cc payments.	[23:40]
mircea_popescu:	financial exchanges are a different kettle of fish, usually happen on actual exchanges.	[23:40]
trinque:	right, accounting rather	[23:40]
mircea_popescu:	and considering the amount of frontrunning etc...	[23:40]
thestringpuller:	trinque: sure. but from my experience with payment processors they only exist because people don't know how to use money.	[23:41]
thestringpuller:	hence deframentation problem	[23:41]
trinque:	the inability to hold to a particular topic is astonishing	[23:41]
trinque:	more importantly, the willingness to ignore instances in one's own day where he bought a screwdriver or roll of toilet paper...	[23:42]
mircea_popescu:	you know i used no credit cards this year ?	[23:43]
trinque:	doesn't the paper count in this context?	[23:43]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: or, iirc, any other year	[23:43]
thestringpuller:	trinque: lemme simplify - from my experience the throughput of a payment processor is due specifically to the devolution of the use of money.	[23:43]
thestringpuller:	CUZ CONSOOMER HAS COME TO EXPECT	[23:43]
mircea_popescu:	asciilifeform nah. it took a lot of finessing to geting here!	[23:43]
trinque:	thestringpuller: would you fucking speak in specifics	[23:43]
trinque:	instead of quoting slogans out of things people said (where they actually had context with gave them meaning!!!)	[23:44]
trinque:	*which	[23:44]
thestringpuller:	okay for instance the prepaid card exists specifically to gouge poor people. each time you use the thing, you have undisclosed fees (which was closed when russell simmons got sued over rush card in 2011/2012). loyalty programs exist to increase tx volume so people "spend more". every initiative at the payment processor level is to create bloat.	[23:45]
mircea_popescu:	trinque if paper counts then we got a problem because i suspect it makes txn uncountable.	[23:45]
thestringpuller:	trinque: from my point of view it's better to buy 1 year of netflix in cash from a store than to have them charge your debit card 12 times throughout the year.	[23:47]
trinque:	oh, and netflix received cash from you, did it	[23:48]
trinque:	"I have decided how the world works and will now run around picking phenomena from it as fits my narrative."	[23:48]
asciilifeform:	eh if visa dings him 5bux every time he pulls it from the holster	[23:49]
mircea_popescu:	at least it's one payment vs 12...	[23:49]
thestringpuller:	^	[23:49]
thestringpuller:	the point i'm making is the payment industry WANTS to bloat payments. they prefer 12 payments to 1 payment	[23:49]
mircea_popescu:	this much is true.	[23:49]
trinque:	you are not going to find orders of magnitude change in removing that from the bulk of payments	[23:50]
asciilifeform:	even with 'normal people' visa, every payment chances to incur, e.g., overdraft fee	[23:50]
trinque:	loyalty does precisely dick for sales	[23:50]
trinque:	for example	[23:50]
mircea_popescu:	and i suppose if the ulterior point here is that of those supposed 100mn txn or w/e, 90% are just there to be there it has some legs to stqand on.	[23:50]
trinque:	ther eis a whole round of dead shartups on that idiot idea	[23:50]
asciilifeform:	so all else equal, they want chump to pay N times, vs 1.	[23:50]
trinque:	the 10% is still bigger than a block	[23:50]
mircea_popescu:	surely.	[23:50]
asciilifeform:	because potentially each time incurs 50bux of overdraft, etc.	[23:50]
thestringpuller:	trinque: This doesn't change the fact the initiative trend towards bloat rather than efficiency.	[23:51]
thestringpuller:	Regardless of how delusional the payment industry is.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu:	there's a bigger effect at stake : if you take the 100mn, and trim them to the top 0.001% say, to fit in blocks, you will get the bottommost tranche of this dutch autction say 1mn dollars (random number)	[23:51]
mircea_popescu:	if you trim the txn to remove bloat, and then take only 0.01% that still fits in blocks	[23:51]
mircea_popescu:	you STILL Get about the same monetary value as the bottommost tranche of your dutch auction	[23:51]
mircea_popescu:	ie, whether you fit 0.001% of bloated cc txn or 0.01% of trimmed cc txn, the smallest txn you include will still be ~same.	[23:52]
trinque:	there was another thread where it was discussed that the common person would merely operate out of an account held by his lord, and everyone bobbled heads at that because the framing felt good.	[23:53]
trinque:	now because the real world example of existing payments is used, it triggers the immune system.	[23:53]
asciilifeform:	iirc the gypsies work this way already.	[23:53]
mircea_popescu:	well if it's discussed with slavegirls and a great pink fuzzy harem with soft velvety marbles and foggy complex pools... then yes@	[23:53]
mircea_popescu:	incidentally, take that modern science of materials : i want velvety marble. always wanted it.	[23:54]
trinque:	I'm just gonna end every statement I make with "and there will be sluts"	[23:54]
mircea_popescu:	where the fuck is it already.	[23:54]
asciilifeform:	mircea_popescu: in 'doom II'.	[23:54]
mircea_popescu:	yawell.	[23:54]
mircea_popescu:	i wanted it from before doom!	[23:55]
asciilifeform:	i want the blue velvety nazi panels from 'wolfenstein'.	[23:55]
trinque:	sluts from duke nukem pls	[23:56]
mircea_popescu:	oh ? did i miss out ?	[23:56]
* mircea_popescu	not much for shooters.	[23:56]
mircea_popescu:	!~google sluts from duke nukem pls	[23:56]
jhvh1:	mircea_popescu: Amazon.com: Duke Nukem Forever - Playstation 3: Video Games: <https://www.amazon.com/Duke-Nukem-Forever-Playstation-3/dp/B002I0JBL4> Duke Nukem Forever Babes Kitty Pousoix - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyMGKN7jw37k> Duke Nukem Forever - Actually Done - Page 4 - ozfortress: <http://ozfortress.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D673315>	[23:56]
* asciilifeform	last proper 'shooter' was 'quake 1' on a 486, at ~7 frame/sec.	[23:57]
thestringpuller:	http://twinstiq.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/duke-stripper.jpg	[23:57]
thestringpuller:	^- i remember if you gae them cash they'd strip	[23:58]
mircea_popescu:	Framedragger log rendition of jhv includes > and > in the url ?	[23:58]
mircea_popescu:	ummm	[23:58]
mircea_popescu:	then again - beats larry.	[23:58]

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