Forum logs for 07 Apr 2016

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
ben_vulpes: heee [00:00]
BingoBoingo: [00:12]
ben_vulpes: > a decision has been made [00:26]
ben_vulpes: man, wouldn't it be neat if CBlockIndex weren't actually a "tree-shaped structure"? [00:26]
ben_vulpes: or if comments stayed in sync with code or something? [00:27]
mircea_popescu: kik yup phf [00:37]
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 20 btc [07:31]
davout: also hanbot -> [07:32]
davout: tldr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT [07:33]
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 26 btc [07:46]
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 30 btc [07:57]
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 33 btc [08:07]
PeterL: is bidding almost over? [08:16]
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 34 btc [08:20]
davout: PeterL: keeps going until one hour elapses after the last bid [08:20]
PeterL: ben_vulpes would you hire a guy who sent you this? [08:23]
shinohai: <<< top keks [08:32]
mircea_popescu: davout> tldr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT <<< time implementation is dumb. see also [08:38]
mircea_popescu: hm. hey phf : vs [08:39]
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, what's it supposed to be ? ? ? [08:39]
mircea_popescu: davout wow, taking off huh ? [08:40]
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 41 btc [08:40]
mircea_popescu: PeterL sounds like the usual cocky bullshit infantile idiots with a useless degree and too much reddit exposure spout. [08:42]
mircea_popescu: could make an ok diner cook, i spose. [08:42]
mircea_popescu: with the right antidepressant medication. [08:42]
PeterL: but isn't it the same kinda stuff ALF is always complaining about? [08:42]
mircea_popescu: and the inept robber and the underpaid policeman also engage in "the same kinda stuff" [08:43]
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 50 btc, aka one full Bitcoin block reward [08:48]
asciilifeform: woah [08:49]
asciilifeform: << news at never'o'clock - 'microshit's license revoked' [08:50]
asciilifeform: << hire to what? sweep floor ? [08:51]
asciilifeform: related lulz: [08:52]
asciilifeform: 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed, raising worries that millions of them may never repay.' [08:52]
asciilifeform: '... The picture has improved slightly from a year earlier, when the nonpayment rate was 46%, but that progress largely reflected a surge in Americans entering a program for distressed borrowers to lower their payments.' [08:52]
asciilifeform: and, best of all, [08:52]
asciilifeform: 'The Education Department has assembled a “behavioral sciences unit” to study the psychology of borrowers and why they don’t repay. “We obviously have not cracked that nut but we want to keep working on it,” said Ted Mitchell, the Education Department’s undersecretary. He said many defaulted borrowers dropped out of school and are underemployed.' [08:52]
davout: je viens de mettre une enchère à 60 btc sur bitbet [08:56]
davout: oops, wrong chan [08:56]
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 60 btc [08:57]
PeterL: asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << I always thought it was supposed to provide some shade, keep inside car from heating up in the sun? [09:03]
mircea_popescu: heh [09:03]
mircea_popescu: let's study why people who live off the dole don't build the empire that was. [09:04]
mircea_popescu: o noes, i wonder. why could it be. [09:04]
mircea_popescu: davout fancy that! [09:04]
mircea_popescu: << interesting point, actually. [09:08]
mircea_popescu: anyone cares enough to see if whoever's left at paymium wants to do a qntra interview ? [09:08]
mircea_popescu: o wow look at that, pete - znort - davout three way free for all! lol. [09:10]
mircea_popescu: PeterL that also. [09:24]
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 63.1337 btc [09:26]
mircea_popescu: im so fucking curious what are the limits of the various parties involved and if any whale lurks lol. [09:28]
mircea_popescu: but all in all this is SO MUCH like eulora auctions i can't fucking believe. [09:29]
mircea_popescu: is it past the end ? what's the cutoff, 1 hr from 10:28 art ? [09:29]
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 70 btc [09:31]
davout: mircea_popescu: one hour after the bid war has stopped basically [09:31]
mircea_popescu: right so technically speaking, time of last bid + 1 hr, and last bid is at 10:33 ie right now [09:32]
davout: 10:33 ar time [09:33]
mircea_popescu: ye [09:33]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments << incidentally... i own a coupla of these. [09:36]
mircea_popescu: they'll make any payments sometime after microsoft-loses-license-o'clock. [09:37]
mircea_popescu: o wow kakobrekla bid 33 even. [09:42]
davout: still 12 minutes left to outbid pete_dushenski [10:17]
davout: 3 minutes left ! [10:26]
davout: 60 seconds [10:28]
davout: AAAAAAAND IT'S SOLD ! [10:29]
mircea_popescu: nice! who got it, pete ? [10:31]
danielpbarron: later tell pete_dushenski congrats on winning bitbet! [10:31]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [10:31]
mircea_popescu: yeah good going. [10:31]
davout: wait [10:31]
danielpbarron: btw his clearsigned thing got mangled by your site, davout easy fix to confirm is add two hyphens to each group of hyphens [10:31]
davout: znort bid 71 [10:31]
davout: danielpbarron: i usually add <pre> tags [10:32]
davout: imma check the precise timestamps [10:32]
danielpbarron: oh whoops [10:32]
danielpbarron: i didn't refresh [10:32]
danielpbarron: later tell pete_dushenski whoops, false alarm! [10:32]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [10:32]
davout: danielpbarron: yeah, i'm adding them myself since wp is retarded [10:32]
mircea_popescu: hmm seems there's a 71 ? [10:33]
mircea_popescu: ah yea [10:33]
PeterL: cutting it close to the deadline, did the bid get in on time? [10:34]
* mircea_popescu pictures various groups frantically trying to gather more liquidity while the +1 btc bit bought them a little time etc [10:34]
danielpbarron: hm, that latest bid doesn't seem to be signed properly [10:35]
danielpbarron: not that you said signing is required [10:35]
mircea_popescu: lmao. [10:35]
PeterL: semms the comment system is magling the pgp-isms inline signaling [10:36]
danielpbarron: well i was able to fix pete's myself and see that it verified, but the same trick didn't work on znort's [10:36]
davout: so the bid is valid [10:36]
davout: [10:36]
davout: see ^ [10:36]
PeterL: such drama! [10:36]
danielpbarron: so is the auction over or did that extend it? [10:37]
davout: also i fell of chair when i discovered wp_comments table has two fields comment_date_gmt, and comment_date [10:37]
davout: danielpbarron: it's not over [10:37]
danielpbarron: oh ok so my congrats wasn't so retarded [10:37]
davout: danielpbarron: it's *not* over [10:38]
davout: the sig is valid once i add <pre>s [10:38]
danielpbarron: right, i thought maybe znort had made the bid an hour ago and it was he who won [10:38]
* danielpbarron is notoriously bad at auction times [10:39]
mircea_popescu: lively times. [10:48]
davout: half an hour left to take home bbet [11:00]
davout: if anyone cares i'm done bidding [11:00]
davout: OR MAYBE NOT :D [11:00]
davout: everyone's my sockpuppet except pete who's being milked for the shareholders [11:01]
mircea_popescu: wait, wut [11:01]
asciilifeform: is wotless rando still in first place ? [11:01]
davout: just kidding [11:01]
davout: asciilifeform: dude is in wot [11:01]
davout: [11:02]
asciilifeform: davout: so is decimation, what of it [11:02]
davout: he's not wotless that's all [11:02]
PeterL: I forget, what did decimation do wrong? [11:02]
davout: $gettrust znort987 [11:02]
mircea_popescu: PeterL you think anyone here enumerates badness ? [11:03]
mircea_popescu: there isn't any air for the whole "oh i did nothing wrong" contribution. [11:03]
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections. [11:03]
davout: deedbot dead? [11:03]
davout: $gettrust deedbot znort987 [11:03]
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections. [11:03]
PeterL: meh, just wondering, I guess I can search through logs [11:03]
asciilifeform: PeterL: he was this fella whom hitler hired to waste our time for ~2y [11:04]
asciilifeform: didn't even deny it with any serious vigour when confronted. [11:04]
PeterL: aha [11:04]
davout: looks like pete is done bidding [11:05]
davout: this znort fellow doesn't show up when grepping my logpile [11:05]
mircea_popescu: mine either. [11:05]
asciilifeform: hence rando [11:06]
davout: l'argent n'a pas d'odeur [11:06]
davout: pecunia non olet [11:06]
mircea_popescu: wasn't he asking for "the logs" or somesuch ? [11:08]
asciilifeform: he was! [11:08]
davout: where ? [11:09]
mircea_popescu: i dunno on your site somewhere. [11:09]
asciilifeform: in one of the signed bids. [11:09]
mircea_popescu: it's pretty lulzy, bitbet never actually kept logs. [11:09]
asciilifeform: [11:09]
asciilifeform: 'Although this is not a requirement, and assuming he has kept a copy, I would also appreciate [11:09]
asciilifeform: if Matic could, as a matter of courtesy, provide the complete logs for the site. [11:09]
asciilifeform: ' [11:09]
davout: aha, i misunderstood, thought he asked pointers to the forum's logs [11:10]
asciilifeform: can anyone suggest a reason why an honest man might ask for such a thing ? [11:10]
davout: aaaaand pete is back in the race with a 72 btc bid [11:10]
PeterL: mircea_popescu mpex faq still points to #bitcoin-assets [11:11]
mircea_popescu: ah yeah its getting fixed eventually. [11:14]
gernika: asciilifeform: aqcuirers of web sites typically want all sorts of metrics about the site that might be in the logs. [11:15]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, www world is enamoured with "metrics" and whatnot [11:15]
mircea_popescu: word. [11:15]
asciilifeform: hm ok [11:15]
davout: aaaaand we're at 73 [11:20]
davout: guess imma make myself some tea, this isn't going to be resolved today at this rate [11:21]
mircea_popescu: lol. [11:21]
mircea_popescu: i have a trilema article all ready for when this finally happened, went to bed expecting to publish it this morn... no dice... [11:22]
* asciilifeform feels like complete idiot for having had notions of buying [11:22]
mircea_popescu: why ? [11:23]
PeterL: asciilifeform maybe you just took the wrong strategy, should have waited until the end to go from .001 to 9 btc, scare everybody else off [11:24]
mircea_popescu: in any case he held top bid for a longer interval than the eventual winner is likely to :D [11:25]
mircea_popescu: see alfie, metrics. they make any reality more palatable. [11:25]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it still tastes like rusty nailz [11:40]
asciilifeform: and at any rate, 9 was my top bid because... that was all the coinz i had. [11:41]
mircea_popescu: makes sense. [12:16]
davout: aaand pete_dushenski takes the lead with a 74 btc bid [12:16]
mircea_popescu: i just checked lol. [12:16]
mircea_popescu: so is the guy znort or znor ? [12:20]
shinohai: And znort counters with 75 ).0 [12:22]
phf: exciting [12:24]
mircea_popescu: so i installed chromium to check it out. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: holy shit this thing is inept. [12:26]
mircea_popescu: shares a bar for url and search ? "click here to log what you type in url bar which we now call omnibar" ? there's no way to see cookies, all you can do is "obliterate" items, and limited to "from the past...." so you can't actually purge the shitbag ? [12:27]
mircea_popescu: who the fuck ever said chromium is usable ? [12:27]
mircea_popescu: popups to translate pages "not in the languages i speak" ? wtf does it know what languages i speak [12:28]
phf: mircea_popescu: you've not looked at "modern" browsers in a while [12:28]
mircea_popescu: oh, don't tell me, i could "save setings online and access them from any browser" [12:28]
mircea_popescu: wtf is wrong with people. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: phf bout five years. [12:28]
mircea_popescu: "continue rtunning background apps when chromium is closed" thing takes the cake. nigga, say wut ?! [12:29]
phf: yeah, that's about how long it's been since you could get a decent browser behavior. i think that's when firefox switched from "general purpose xul renderer" to "modern browser" [12:29]
mircea_popescu: whats that even mean. [12:29]
mircea_popescu: "the web" as a sort of google-run itunes store ? in the grand tradition of the bbs archive ? [12:34]
mircea_popescu: shinohai any bets on who wins in the end ? :D [12:44]
mircea_popescu: 81! [12:46]
davout: and why's pete_dushenski not around? [12:49]
mircea_popescu: ya srs. [12:49]
davout: fucking casual [12:49]
mircea_popescu: lol. werd. [12:49]
phf: betting 74btc from his iphone at a brunch or something [12:54]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there ARE NO sane graphical wwwtrons [12:58]
asciilifeform: 'chromium' was, last i knew, the ~least~ braindamaged [12:58]
asciilifeform: but this is not saying much. [12:58]
mircea_popescu: i don't see how it could possibly qualify. [13:01]
PeterL: what would you use instead? [13:02]
asciilifeform: ^ [13:02]
mircea_popescu: instead of what ? [13:02]
asciilifeform: i ~won't~ use firefox, for instance. [13:03]
PeterL: instead of chromium? [13:03]
asciilifeform: it is a steaming megatonnne of shit. [13:03]
mircea_popescu: i dunnoi, im not that into gfx browsers. [13:03]
PeterL: firefox used to be the best, now it just feels slow and clunky when I try to use it [13:03]
mircea_popescu: atm trying a thing called "seamonkey" [13:03]
asciilifeform: PeterL: it leaked memory from day1 [13:03]
PeterL: aha [13:03]
PeterL: has the leak gotten bigger with time? [13:04]
trinque: meanwhile chromium's got "native client" [13:05]
trinque: because who doesn't want to run binary blobs in a web page? [13:06]
trinque: google reinvents activex, is so totally not msft of 2010s [13:07]
mircea_popescu: heh [13:08]
jurov: acc. to my hands-on experience, haskell's problem is not the cpu [13:09]
jurov: but that it took the "machine with unlimited memory" abstraction and took it to extreme [13:09]
asciilifeform: jurov: unlimited memory, instantaneous movement of data, magical i/o... [13:10]
asciilifeform: motherfucking MONADS [13:10]
jurov: but making it split work between cores is much easier [13:10]
asciilifeform: at the cost of doing 25x moar wurk total. [13:11]
jurov: than to get it not to hog memory by filling it with lazy comuptation thunks [13:11]
jurov: i had to mark almost *everything* by "yes compute this now, not leave it to later" [13:12]
asciilifeform: jurov: ml (predecessor of haskell) is sorta like haskell but without some of the more egregious mental illnesses [13:13]
asciilifeform: (e.g., no laziness) [13:13]
mircea_popescu: honestly a proper modern fortran would prolly be worth the time to make. this specifically means upgrading it more towards derive than towards haskell [13:14]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how is a 'towards Derive' a fortran ?! [13:15]
asciilifeform: fortran has no redeeming value, period [13:15]
mircea_popescu: recall what our dispute (of sorts) re ada ended up resolving as ? "hey man - it may pretend it's not like c - but it's like c". [13:15]
asciilifeform: for fucks sake it isn't a c [13:16]
mircea_popescu: there's fundamentally two ways to approach computing : as an engineer and as a mathematician. [13:16]
asciilifeform: unless abused egregiously [13:16]
mircea_popescu: there's some shoddy solutions for the first. chiefly, c. people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible. [13:16]
asciilifeform: can use EXCLUSIVELY safe arrays, can AVOID ENTIRELY pointers. ergo not 'a c' [13:16]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, for the latter, there's... r ? [13:16]
asciilifeform: qe'fucking'd [13:16]
mircea_popescu: wouldja let go of that and look where i'm saying! [13:16]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for the latter, common lisp. [13:17]
asciilifeform: (or, if space-constrained, scheme.) [13:17]
mircea_popescu: so i don't have to point out to you that yes it is, "even" "mod" etc. [13:17]
asciilifeform: why do you need the infix claptrap ? [13:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu reads 3 pages of ada examples and spews nonsense re same [13:17]
asciilifeform: srsly, consider reading the rationale ? [13:18]
mircea_popescu: mk, we have to [re]do that discussion in depth, i guess. [13:18]
asciilifeform: the 'even' thing was not a built in op ! [13:18]
asciilifeform: it was an ~example~ somebody wrote. [13:18]
mircea_popescu: how about mod ? how about > ? [13:18]
phf: alf is deeply infatuated at the moment with ada, so you should wait a few months :p [13:18]
asciilifeform: phf: actually i don't much enjoy ada [13:19]
asciilifeform: i just don't see ANY practical alternative to it [13:19]
mircea_popescu: "mod is not definable here because hey, abstract types. nevermind, > is defined, fuck abstract6 types". [13:19]
mircea_popescu: it's a c. [13:19]
mircea_popescu: the criteria YOU use for c-ness is not unversal. [13:19]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly say what you think of as 'a c' [13:19]
asciilifeform: this would be helpful [13:19]
phf: asciilifeform: well, same way as no particular alternatives were seen to tinyscheme few months ago [13:19]
asciilifeform: phf: afaik there still are none! [13:19]
asciilifeform: show me one! [13:20]
mircea_popescu: " people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible." <<< we're in exact agreement, here. no alternative known, and not likely possible. [13:20]
mircea_popescu: but that doesn't change the fucking fact! [13:20]
asciilifeform: ~which~ fact [13:20]
mircea_popescu: an engineering machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins as it's defined, and you end up with a max equal to 20999999.9769 btc. [13:23]
phf: asciilifeform: recall that i spent probably most time here on tinyscheme going as far as writing swank integration and unreleased bignums, i'm saying that you go through phases of "this is how we solve bitcoin". i grok the value of ada, and i grok the value of scheme, but neither are alternative-less. in fact with the amount of skill available, simply hacking on btc consistently we would've been further along [13:23]
mircea_popescu: a math machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins and the sum works properly and the series converges to 21mn [13:23]
mircea_popescu: so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT, which is just as broken. [13:24]
mircea_popescu: it's true that haskell tries and splendidly fails at being not-this. [13:24]
mircea_popescu: what's that do for anyone. [13:24]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja grok what i'm talking about ? [13:26]
davout: aaaand pete_dushenski is at 85 [13:27]
asciilifeform: phf: ENTIRELY different applications. tinyscheme was suggested SPECIFICALLY for embedding in large cpp program with ~tiny~ loc budget [13:27]
asciilifeform: NOT for safety-critical software [13:28]
asciilifeform: which - is is my belief - must NOT garbagecollect [13:28]
asciilifeform: ever. [13:28]
asciilifeform: and i am NOT interested in further hacking on cpp turd. [13:28]
asciilifeform: except to the purpose of SHRINKING same. [13:28]
mircea_popescu: why's this guy so emotional. yo! [13:28]
asciilifeform: <+mircea_popescu> so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the [13:28]
asciilifeform: fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where [13:28]
asciilifeform: you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT, [13:28]
deedbot: hands you a broomstick. [13:28]
deedbot: hands you a broomstick. [13:28]
deedbot: hands you a broomstick. [13:28]
asciilifeform: ^ false [13:29]
mircea_popescu: eh ? [13:29]
asciilifeform: CAN define. [13:29]
asciilifeform: just gotta use BRAIN. [13:29]
mircea_popescu: how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet. [13:30]
asciilifeform: by knowing it ? [13:30]
mircea_popescu: so then are you saying ada shouldn't allow either mod or > ? [13:30]
mircea_popescu: ie, that the thing as-is is broken, and should be fixed, but other than that the idea is ok ? [13:30]
asciilifeform: what i'm saying is that operating on machine integers when you really mean something quite else, is braindamaged [13:31]
asciilifeform: use machine integers when they fit. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: this is not germane to the discussion. [13:31]
asciilifeform: point being that i can define, e.g., a 48-bit mantissa and 11-bit exponent, and USE THIS and ada will behave sanely. [13:31]
asciilifeform: and place the bits CPU-independently. [13:31]
mircea_popescu: also not germane to the discussion. [13:31]
asciilifeform: ...? [13:32]
mircea_popescu: aite brb, ima state this moar formally. [13:32]
mircea_popescu: the problem is this : in ada manual it is said, "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression." it is further said "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expres [13:34]
mircea_popescu: sion in parentheses." [13:34]
mircea_popescu: to the question "why did they not define EVEN correctly, eschewing this problem they perceive with mod" you answer that " ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !". This objection, if accepted as the correct response, ALSO invalidates using, say, XOR, and for the same reason. [13:34]
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here being, obviously enough, that the FORMALISM used to describe math for and in computers is shit. and yes, on that shitty basis you will never have math, but an engineering-useful hack. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: so yes, i can understand WHY you'd like it, think you need it, see it as best or better. [13:35]
asciilifeform: this much cannot be escaped. [13:35]
mircea_popescu: but all this ~fundamentally c discussion~ which is EXACTLY what it is, [13:35]
mircea_popescu: has no bearing on the problem that hey, math is still not represented, and some people'd like it to be. [13:35]
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting to hear what is 'fundamentally c' [13:35]
mircea_popescu: this! [13:35]
mircea_popescu: this "hey, it doesn't work, sign here" [13:35]
asciilifeform: thus far it sounds like 'why wash hands after shitting, there are microbes everywhere' [13:36]
mircea_popescu: no, it sounds like until the day you can machine-represent an irrational quality without rounding, you're lying to yourself about having washed anything. [13:36]
asciilifeform: to me, c MEANS buffer overflows and idiot type casts, and pointers. [13:36]
mircea_popescu: so then : this is c. [13:36]
mircea_popescu: yeah well, we're different people. [13:36]
asciilifeform: if you want rational numeric tower (as mircea_popescu describes above) you are condemned to lisp. [13:36]
mircea_popescu: and this is why it goes all the way down to fortran. the unresolved problems are actually very deep. [13:36]
asciilifeform: with all of the costs. [13:36]
asciilifeform: fortran is quintessentially a c [13:37]
asciilifeform: but with braindamaged syntax. [13:37]
mircea_popescu: maybe miserable example, in retrospect. [13:37]
phf: or apl [13:37]
asciilifeform: (btw anyone who pines for fortran, need not search long, it is on your box right now, in gcc) [13:37]
mircea_popescu: i picked it as a point because of the "abstract number" thing, ie, redefine 4. [13:37]
asciilifeform: redefining 4 worked as a strings parser trick [13:37]
mircea_popescu: (that is in practice an equivalent of the mantissa trick, it allows you to get out of all sorts of problems) [13:37]
asciilifeform: not because it had any general concept of number. [13:38]
mircea_popescu: yeah well. my theoretically-useful example failed the test of practice. [13:38]
asciilifeform: the precise handling of bits is, afaik, unique to ada and commonlisp [13:38]
asciilifeform: where i can specify EXACTLY how the bits lay down [13:38]
asciilifeform: as illustrated in yesterday's link [13:39]
mircea_popescu: but in the end, i say this : the difference between 20999999.9769 and 21000000.0000 is the unpayable change. point of fact remains that we can't escape this situation where we draw one thing, and the machine pops up another thing. [13:41]
mircea_popescu: and the problem is not, apparently, resolvable by fixing the machines. even if you had ideal machines, they'd still haveto halve blocks, and the results would still conceivably be... this. [13:41]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: easy, just don't use the idiot ieee float [13:41]
asciilifeform: use sufficient bits for the representation of the WHOLE range. [13:41]
asciilifeform: SOLVED [13:41]
mircea_popescu: i don't think you understand. [13:42]
mircea_popescu: satoshis are integers. they are not floats. [13:42]
asciilifeform: so then ? [13:42]
mircea_popescu: problem persists. [13:42]
asciilifeform: from where comes this imaginary problem, i dun see it [13:42]
mircea_popescu: nothing imaginary about it, it's factual. the sum total of all satoshi in existence once the bitcoin ran its course will not be 21mn, but 131k satoshi less. [13:42]
asciilifeform: so you represent it as a quotient. [13:43]
asciilifeform: this is called 'rational arithmetic' [13:43]
mircea_popescu: there is no way to represent "all the numbers between 1 and 2" in a finite space. [13:43]
asciilifeform: why ALL the numbers ? [13:43]
jurov: mircea_popescu: there is, using ranges [13:43]
asciilifeform: represent the ones you can actually produce. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: jurov ranges are a sort of abstraction unavailable to computers. [13:44]
asciilifeform: satan help you if you are actually in need of 'reals' [13:44]
asciilifeform: they don't EXIST in engineering. [13:44]
asciilifeform: never did. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: it is, in places such as ada, "must use contiguity" the EXACT equivalent of "my ai program thinks because the procedure is called <<understanding>>" [13:44]
asciilifeform: nope. [13:44]
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as contiguity or ranges that machines can grok. [13:44]
asciilifeform: the possible values of a byte ~are~ contiguous. [13:45]
phf: i don't understand why the point mircea_popescu would be so controversial among compscis here, it's sort of the whole point of numerical analysis [13:45]
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers. [13:45]
mircea_popescu: phf me either. [13:45]
phf: alf keeps saying that there are localized solutions to various classes of numerical problems [13:45]
jurov: mircea_popescu: there's "unum" numeric system that does support ranges, and is improved replacement of ieee floats [13:45]
phf: mp keeps saying that you don't have a way to solve it as an abstract [13:45]
mircea_popescu: it's well established for ~3 centuries now, i kinda feel like leibniz already. [13:45]
asciilifeform: you define the field, and work in it [13:45]
phf: which is entirely true, this is like intro to von neumann 101 [13:45]
asciilifeform: why is this a painful concept ? [13:46]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can't define jack shit for a cpu without actually lying somewhere about what you did. is the problem. [13:46]
jurov: btw, i doubt continuum can be grokked by humas, either [13:46]
jurov: *humans [13:46]
mircea_popescu: maybe not. [13:47]
jurov: all we have is some deryp prrof that "we think of something that we don't know how to map to N" [13:47]
phf: it's a philosophical discussion, and mp, not being a programmer, is realizing that ada or c or .. is not actually it from where he stands, doesn't mean can't be used, just not magick. [13:47]
asciilifeform: machine is not magical, no. [13:47]
mircea_popescu: let's work a simple example. suppose the case is that your machine is required to behave coherently with the rule that " among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers". the MOMENT your solution to this was "simple, just take $i*2", you have in fact c'd it. [13:48]
asciilifeform: but it IS possible to make abstraction that does not leak until you run out of memory. [13:48]
mircea_popescu: phf worse that that, utterly undermines the fundamental reason against many things we supposedly argue against fundamentally. [13:48]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in your terms : it IS NOT possible to make abstraction that does not leak until [condition about machine and only machine]. ALL the abstractions you make WILL leak once you run out of BRAIN. [13:49]
phf: mircea_popescu: fwiw a lot of vlsi research in the 70s and 80s was about that, how do we make bedrock a lot less engineery, but that all died with microcomputer revolution(sic) [13:49]
asciilifeform: when you run out of brain, all bets are off. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: basically, all the architecture systems architects have managed yet to produce is the equivalent of "we need 10.1k builders - 100 to build and 10k to hold up the walls once we're done". [13:50]
mircea_popescu: this, if sad, is an insecapable fact of the trade. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: phf aha. [13:50]
mircea_popescu: i agree the crisis may only be in my head, but in point of fact i'm getting a whole paradigm reallignment thing, slightly queasy atm. [13:51]
asciilifeform: the one and only sane fact is that we are stuck with CPU designed when ram was $50/kB. [13:51]
jurov: isn't this parallel with old greeks thinking "all numbers are rational".. till they found out they can't? [13:51]
asciilifeform: *sad fact [13:51]
mircea_popescu: quite paralel. [13:51]
phf: except opposite? all the math, until you find out that immediately available reality is finite [13:52]
asciilifeform: not only finite, but discrete. [13:53]
mircea_popescu: phf the greeks notably thought they can build things, because they know "the actual value of pi" [13:53]
asciilifeform: the very first thing you learn of a computer, 'this thing has N states, yes, it is a large N, but N is an INTEGER' [13:53]
mircea_popescu: except the larger the things they tried to build, the worse it got. but then they fixed it. because, as alf the greek beedog says, "it IS possioble to make wall that won't leak!!11"| [13:53]
mircea_popescu: so yea, i would say this is very much equivalent. we CAN'T actually make computer systems. and every time we try to make a larger one, we're stuck re-calculating a sort of "pi" [13:54]
mircea_popescu: about which the only thing that can be rightly said is that - it will crash the next larger system. [13:54]
asciilifeform: this is directly 'why wash hands, sanitation doesn't exist.' [13:54]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that i am proposing no action. [13:54]
asciilifeform: but it is the perfect and in fact traditional excuse for inaction. [13:54]
mircea_popescu: when i say "therefore - we should all eat an onion" you can bring that obhection [13:55]
mircea_popescu: or to put it another way : the reason software houses denegerate into makework facilities is much more fundamental than any sort of policy. in point of fact, a numeric computer of the sort we're using is NOT useful in either logic or math but as a shorhand for an actual logician or mathematician that takes the abortive nonsense the machine spits out, and enchants it into actual usable truth. [14:01]
mircea_popescu: and there's no way to specify him out of the machine or vice-versa. for reasons that perhaps go all the way to godel [14:02]
mircea_popescu: (and yes, [14:02]
mircea_popescu: this'd make the "march lords in a wot - take your fief and guard it" naive approach to date actually very well grounded both factually and now philosophically and also offer a ready explanation of "why all this shit everywhere!" [14:04]
asciilifeform: it remains possible to write proggy that behaves - demonstrably - correctly for ALL electrically-possible inputs. [14:04]
mircea_popescu: yes. but it remains impossible for this proggy to be useful in the abstract :) [14:05]
asciilifeform: what ~isn't~ possible, per godel, is to arrive at this using brute idiocy [14:05]
phf: (that's one of the reasons i thought one of the more effective ways of organizing computer human interaction is have an equivalent of dune mentat backed by a computer, i.e. an advisor to decision makers who performs computation and analysis. something like that existed at the height of apl, and i know a handful of now old apl-ers who sat on boards and were responsible almost exclusively for "running the numbers") [14:05]
asciilifeform: yes, idiots want this for phreee, without having to UNDERSTAND what they did. [14:05]
asciilifeform: phf: this remains the only practical thing. [14:05]
asciilifeform: anywhere. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: so it does. for reasons better understood now, at least by me. [14:05]
asciilifeform: it is, i think, how mircea_popescu uses bitcoin, for instance. [14:05]
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this is exactly how the trade houses used to work, [14:06]
phf: in which case the kind of machines that the mentats are backed by require very particular characteristics, e.g. power above "novice usability" etc. so lisp machines and apl machines [14:06]
asciilifeform: think of a ship's telegraph. [14:06]
mircea_popescu: before the "mentats" got into depression, heavy drinking and asscrack-cracksnorting. [14:06]
asciilifeform: captain did not turn knobs on the steam machine himself! [14:06]
asciilifeform: phf: it is my intention to bring this back, full bore. [14:06]
asciilifeform: to the mentat - the mentat's [14:07]
asciilifeform: to caesar - caesar's (tm) etc. [14:07]
mircea_popescu: cesar, the guy whose name became an office [14:07]
mircea_popescu: even in countries far distant in time and space, that couldn't rightly spell it./ [14:07]
asciilifeform: aha. [14:08]
mircea_popescu: in short, and to sum up : there may never exist such a thing as the "general purpose computer" [14:10]
phf: the person that i was a [big bank] vendor with is actually doing that right now. a trained apl-er and mathematician, having spent few years interacting with [big bank] decision makers now consults on a handshake basis for companies that need a problem solved, but don't care if it comes with a pretty windows gui [14:10]
phf: of course, general purpose computer was always a device that high cast professional would sit in front in order to do computations, augmented by external systems or additional special purpose interchangeable boards. at least that was a pretty shared vision from engelbard to symbolics before the microcomputer [14:13]
mircea_popescu: im thinking it was actually a delusion, driven by peculiar circumstance that was both exceptional and unlikely to repeat. [14:13]
phf: yes :/ [14:13]
mircea_popescu: much of the same substance as rms' "oh, all things belong to all people", ie, lazy reductionism. [14:14]
mircea_popescu: but hey, welfare works for as long it works, so does this. [14:14]
phf: well, it was post-war boomers, left leaning hippie intelligentsia who grep up on asimov and such, in a country awash with free money, all that euro gold [14:15]
phf: culture that percolated into mass media through star trek federation and such [14:15]
mircea_popescu: i am left without a solid basis to protest the use of magic numbers in code / [14:15]
mircea_popescu: but at least the whole "technology offers no solution for human problems" intuition now has much better footing in fact. [14:24]
mircea_popescu: anyway. the forever-bitcoin, ready to be buried under the sea or w/e, is not happening. because : "<mircea_popescu> how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet. <asciilifeform> by knowing it ?" is actually inescapable. [14:26]
mircea_popescu: btw phf is actuallyt trivially checked, i have the logs of when it dc'd. [14:27]
mircea_popescu: lesseee. [14:27]
phf: i feel like i have some code laying around to do comparison, but won't have wandwidth for a bit [14:28]
phf: *wandwidth [14:28]
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:56:48 * assbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [14:29]
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:57:31 <mod6> bc,stats [14:29]
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:58:53 * assbot (~assbot@unaffiliated/kakobrekla/bot/assbot) has joined #bitcoin-assets [14:29]
phf: oh fair [14:29]
phf: about 2 minutes round time, yeah that's what i'm getting just doing an aggressive reconnect. note that there's possibly a lack of log visibility few seconds before it "quit" [14:30]
mircea_popescu: << missing [14:31]
mircea_popescu: confirmed. [14:31]
asciilifeform: << poppycock. [14:31]
mircea_popescu: $up idioter [14:32]
deedbot: idioter voiced for 30 minutes. [14:32]
mircea_popescu: tis a dream alf. a dream! [14:32]
mircea_popescu: << so it seems the winner is znort guy, 86 btc bid. [14:33]
mircea_popescu: bc,stats [14:33]
gribble: Current Blocks: 406197 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 1034 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [14:33]
asciilifeform: program that behaves sanely for all time so long as the iron holds up, is a reality. i write'em. [14:33]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform browser ? [14:34]
phf: so doing awk through my logs, there's almost 10k lines "missing" [14:34]
mircea_popescu: this is WHY your "fits in head", btw. well justified cover for the "on the basis of the pi we know, the largest house that can stand is 11 feet tall" [14:34]
asciilifeform: if you could kill the shitstack, incl gpu, yes - even browser. [14:35]
mircea_popescu: phf some of that could be unresolved netsplits ? [14:35]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha! [14:35]
idioter: hello. i made a withdrawal on from mpex about 4 days ago. i have been told i need to talk to mircea popescu about it. [14:35]
mircea_popescu: idioter yeah loads of btc moving since mpex sale. hold tight, you'll get it. [14:35]
idioter: is there any approximate information about when the withdrawals will be made? [14:38]
mircea_popescu: i'd expect today/tomorrow. [14:38]
mircea_popescu: but mostly, today. [14:38]
idioter: o.k. thank you [14:41]
pete_dushenski: since 5:30am onwards, my goodness what an eventful day [15:13]
pete_dushenski: see stan, even kulaks set wake-up alarms sometimes. [15:14]
mircea_popescu: lol i guess you're gonna buy a new car with the btc thus saved ? [15:17]
asciilifeform: l0lwut [15:17]
asciilifeform: ah he lost [15:18]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: something like that [15:18]
mircea_popescu: anyway, re earlier discussion, i guess it'd be worth belabouring the point that nothing therein contained is an argument against using ada. it's still a great technical solution, for bounds checking, for other reasons, it's still a great practical solution, for native linkability with c object code, for other reasons. same stands for scheme, still best option for a scripting language for bitcoind. [15:18]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re thread, see also earlier threadz re 'impedance matching' [15:19]
mircea_popescu: impedance yea [15:19]
asciilifeform: as in 'why using 19 bit integer is 25x slower than 16' [15:20]
asciilifeform: the concept pervades physics. [15:20]
mircea_popescu: "why is no insect larger than a breadbox" [15:20]
asciilifeform: well that's more euclidean geometric (surface/volume) [15:20]
mircea_popescu: (contrary to what noob scientists may think, "a breadbox" is neither arbitrary nor undefined in that sentence) [15:21]
asciilifeform: this'd be more of a 'why is ear shaped like-so' [15:21]
shinohai: Thanks for making my day entertaining anyway pete_dushenski o/ [15:21]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform geometry doesn't really matter until physics decides d^x is a factor :D [15:21]
pete_dushenski: shinohai: yw! [15:22]
pete_dushenski: later tell davout don't scare-excite me like that next time! (wait, what next time?) also, i wanted to show up here, but couldn't quite meditate and irc atst [15:22]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [15:22]
asciilifeform: later tell mod6 [16:13]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [16:13]
asciilifeform: ^ and anyone else [16:13]
asciilifeform: spiffy resource. [16:13]
mircea_popescu: such first and only comment. [16:25]
asciilifeform: classic homework idler [16:26]
asciilifeform: quite familiar species to regular readers of 'stack overflow' and similar. [16:26]
mircea_popescu: "Ada.Text_IO is a "package" that comes with Ada. (In Ada 83, the package name is just Text_IO, and for compatibility, Ada 95 also accepts the shorter name.) We'll learn more about packages later." [16:26]
mircea_popescu: such win. [16:26]
deedbot-: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] That time I let outright ownership of BitBet slip through my fingers. - [17:29]
pete_dushenski: ^updated. realised i'd left the calculated p/e in months rather than the standard years. [17:42]
mircea_popescu: well technically it started 0.0001 0.0002 [17:43]
pete_dushenski: aha. was speaking to two other points in s.bbet's history however : peak and present [17:45]
mircea_popescu: the auction [17:45]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron and thestringpuller also bid [17:45]
pete_dushenski: o sorry that, left those out because unsigned [17:46]
mircea_popescu: ah thats a point [17:49]
pete_dushenski: heh shows pingbacks in 'recent comments'. i'll take the free advertising. [17:56]
phf: gg [17:57]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: [18:02]
BingoBoingo: later tell davout delete xmlrpc.php from your wordpress install and you will be 95% of the way to securing your blawg [18:02]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [18:02]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: [18:05]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: [18:05]
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: mine was signed.. [18:06]
pete_dushenski: thus, yours was the first bid [18:06]
pete_dushenski: at 9 btc [18:06]
pete_dushenski: there were no signed bids before that [18:06]
asciilifeform: hm looks like. [18:07]
phf: so i don't read hackernews or reddit, they are mentioned here a lot though, so i decided to check if a sale of bitcoin company for 86BTC (damn) is going to get mentioned anywhere. nope. nada. [18:07]
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise. [18:09]
asciilifeform: no paulgraham catamites or phoundation scum involved - ergo no mention. [18:10]
asciilifeform: in other 'news', << useful data structures stuff [18:15]
asciilifeform: mod6 et al ^ [18:15]
mircea_popescu: phf they mostly get mentioned derisively, tho. it's a sort of templeos/timecube/whatever, they got their alt-reality, sticking to it, nothing happens in it, etc. [18:17]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what did templos ever do to you!111 [18:17]
mircea_popescu: weirdo guy going on about god something or the other ? [18:18]
asciilifeform: with motherfucking sane orthogonal persistence!1 [18:18]
mircea_popescu: so you like templeos because it has persistence and graham because, apparently, gavin doesn't have to work for a living. [18:19]
mircea_popescu: you're a man with an open heart, what. [18:19]
asciilifeform: 1ofthesethings is not like theotherz!11 (tm) (r) [18:20]
pete_dushenski: phf: if the sale of a bitcoin company for 250k btc didn't get mentioned, a measly 86 btc sale doesn't stand much chance of crossing the lips of the peeple [18:20]
asciilifeform: 1ofthesethingz doesn't belong!1 [18:20]
mircea_popescu: "it wasn't a real company because we didn't count for shit in the sale" [18:20]
mircea_popescu: you know, sorta like how "russia is not real country because putin doesn't invite obama over" [18:21]
asciilifeform: precisely that way. [18:21]
asciilifeform: or, even more so, 'ghadafi is not a real sovereign because he doesn't come to davos' [18:21]
mircea_popescu: "and his nurses are hawt" [18:22]
phf: top /r/bitcoin post is about some guy for bought bitcoin for $20 that he forgot about, now has $800k. this is like The Sun style bullshit "found million dollars in gradma attick" [18:22]
mircea_popescu: but it's precisely what it is. [18:22]
asciilifeform: phf: it is also handy waterfall legend [18:22]
asciilifeform: 'who is selling 800k of coin? not usg!111 you hatefact-peddling nazi. it's this bloke in his attic' [18:22]
asciilifeform: << irrelevant but very interesting imho. [18:27]
asciilifeform: mod6 et al ^ [18:27]
asciilifeform: (example of large ada application) [18:28]
asciilifeform: incidentally, very pertinent to earlier thread, [18:29]
asciilifeform: because the kdf9 had ~weird~ (by modern standards) data types, e.g., 96-bit mantissa, etc. [18:30]
asciilifeform: and these are emulated, pretty elegantly. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: in other news, [18:30]
asciilifeform: 48-bit integers... [18:31]
asciilifeform: 6-bit chars. [18:31]
mircea_popescu: you know, thinking about it... what exactly is the rationale even of the concept of "int" ? [18:32]
mircea_popescu: it's a cheap hack to get things cached through "registers", sure. [18:32]
mircea_popescu: so ? [18:32]
mircea_popescu: cpu should have proper cache wtf is a "register" even in 2016. [18:32]
mircea_popescu: there is ~no reason to use the c representation or notion of number at all. [18:32]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you recall the 1-bit cpu thread ? [18:33]
asciilifeform: i turned one up ! [18:33]
mircea_popescu: aha. [18:33]
asciilifeform: a month or 2 ago [18:33]
asciilifeform: it existed. [18:33]
asciilifeform: registers as long as you like, on a whim. [18:33]
mircea_popescu: it's not directly clear the notion of bit is even relevant [18:33]
mircea_popescu: aha! [18:33]
asciilifeform: (you can trivially bit-serial add/subtract, but not mult/div unless by powers of the base) [18:33]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta pick some quantum of info for the logic to operate on. [18:35]
asciilifeform: (personally i favour the... trit) [18:35]
asciilifeform: but otherwise registers are a necessary evil, a teaspoon-sized bucket is possible but generally not wanted [18:35]
mircea_popescu: i'm unpersuaded. yes the breadbox is neither arbitrary nor undefined in the bug discussion. here however, no such benefit. there is no "size". [18:36]
asciilifeform: i dug out the 1-bit cpu because i have a weakness for exotic archs that might be amenable to optical or otherwise 'this handful of switching elements' incarnation. [18:36]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: bit-serial arithmetic is slow. and bit-serial storage is slow. [18:37]
asciilifeform: the use of registers was the original parallelization, if you will. [18:37]
asciilifeform: ('let the n bits add at once' etc) [18:38]
mircea_popescu: in entirely unrelated but omfg i can't believe this - cascadia dwelling derpy mother of slavegirl that wants to think of self as "fiber artist" but otherwise crochets like any old woman since time immemorial, landed what to her appears as a very good deal. she sells her stuff in a senior citizen center gift shop. for a 15% comission. to understand each other : she provides the merchandise. she provides the sales workforce. sh [18:38]
mircea_popescu: e takes home 15 cents out of a dollar in receipts. [18:38]
mircea_popescu: i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people. [18:38]
asciilifeform: ^ apple app store !11 [18:38]
asciilifeform: or any dead tree publisher [18:39]
asciilifeform: (where in fact author is lucky to see 3-5%) [18:39]
mircea_popescu: dude... what happened to full price for the stock + full wage for me selling it + benefits. [18:39]
mircea_popescu: fucking unions won. [18:39]
mircea_popescu: totally. [18:39]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no i know the history of how it ended up in. i'm just saying, it really is pretty stupid, useless and wtf already. [18:39]
asciilifeform: it is classic app store - 'don't like it? go sell on the street, keep 100% of the pennies you get' [18:40]
asciilifeform: the folks who carved up and own the whole fucking universe, are responsible for this. [18:41]
asciilifeform: which is why i fundamentally cannot hate rms, say [18:41]
asciilifeform: any fly in their soup is a friend of mine. [18:41]
asciilifeform: the more poisonous - the better. [18:41]
mircea_popescu: "the folks" you speak of are wholly imagined. [18:42]
asciilifeform: recall the lab robot thread ? [18:42]
mircea_popescu: like wizard of oz. [18:42]
asciilifeform: the owners are not imagined. [18:42]
asciilifeform: every sidewalk tile i step on has owner. [18:42]
mircea_popescu: yeah, they are. again : wizard of oz. [18:42]
mircea_popescu: nobody there. [18:42]
mircea_popescu: nothing you can possibly touch in a day of trying has an owner. nothing. [18:42]
mircea_popescu: it's mortgaged, hypotecated, securitized, sold, bought and transfered. nothing belongs to anyone or anything. [18:43]
mircea_popescu: you think the situation is peculiar to gold ? it is not. [18:43]
asciilifeform: i suspect even my arse has owner, somewhere in a filing cabinet some parasite has title to it. [18:43]
mircea_popescu: pfff. [18:43]
mircea_popescu: nonsense. [18:43]
asciilifeform: ah i see what mircea_popescu meant re gold etc. [18:44]
asciilifeform: this, yes. [18:44]
mircea_popescu: yeah. [18:44]
asciilifeform: but my point was that folks-who-definitely-aren't-me own the whole lot. [18:44]
mircea_popescu: so... no. no folks. no anything. just a snake of pressed shit eating its tail and wondering why the process is lossy. [18:44]
asciilifeform: like in the 'pioneers land' trilema article. [18:44]
asciilifeform: all carved up. [18:44]
mircea_popescu: this isn't a point, this is a psychogenic bit of nonsense. [18:45]
mircea_popescu: a similar cognitive process would be to say : a) i don't fuck bricks b) another exists c) therefore, another fucks bricks. [18:46]
* asciilifeform sees where mircea_popescu is going. [18:46]
mircea_popescu: and ftr, the woman would make 10x to 100x more selling on street. [18:46]
asciilifeform: it is a lulzy reversal, actually, normally it is i who 'none of these apparent X are true X' [18:46]
mircea_popescu: da fuck, most buskers make more than her by a fat margin. [18:47]
asciilifeform: busker != old woman selling sweaters [18:47]
asciilifeform: busker is a very active, in your face thing [18:47]
mircea_popescu: which is the problem here. even when it works, the "appstore" didn't work for the rational reason, but for the irrational one. [18:47]
mircea_popescu: as evidenced to me and for my needs by the plain fact that even when the actual rational explanation is no longer applicable, [18:47]
mircea_popescu: the behaviour continues. [18:47]
mircea_popescu: these people are, basically, very dedicated cultists. they WANT a CERTAIN SOMETHING to be how things work. and will disregard and ignore anything and everything else. because they're not, fundamentally, opressed. they're, fundamentally, nazis. [18:48]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people. << PUBLISHING!!! [18:48]
hanbot: mircea_popescu it's possible something like that is the cheaper option for a certain sort of person in a certain sort of context [18:48]
hanbot: particularly when old age enters into this. [18:49]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja have in ro the old folks holding up pictures of stalin ? [18:49]
mircea_popescu: it is not possible, no. [18:49]
asciilifeform: in '90s [18:49]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. quite. [18:49]
asciilifeform: so - them! [18:49]
asciilifeform: right here they are, i imagine, holding up reagan [18:49]
hanbot: the initiative and work involved in the actual sales is rarely something an old woman can accomplish [18:49]
asciilifeform: or if not yet, will soon. [18:49]
mircea_popescu: hanbot but she has to do the sales as it is! [18:49]
hanbot: oh, seriously? [18:50]
mircea_popescu: the only thing she can't do is, construct the mental infrastructure of pretense she subscribes to. [18:50]
hanbot: i thought it's some sort of leave yer shit in our kiosk and we'll sell it sorta deal [18:50]
mircea_popescu: much like byzantine peasant couldn't construct the orthodox delusion much like alf teh bee dog can't construct washington. [18:50]
mircea_popescu: yet there they are, mesmerized contributors. [18:50]
mircea_popescu: hanbot no, she physically mans the kiosk. like the job someone would be normally hired to do, and get a wage. [18:51]
mircea_popescu: except she doesn't. [18:51]
asciilifeform: ok now ~that's~ bizarre. [18:55]
BingoBoingo: So, I drove by well over a million dollars in ruined construction equipment this morning. [18:55]
BingoBoingo: Apparently some asshole dug into a 10 inch natural gas pipe [18:56]
BingoBoingo: [19:00]
asciilifeform: zimbabwes weren't meant to have piped gas. [19:02]
asciilifeform: they heat with cow shit. [19:02]
BingoBoingo: You'd be surprised where they pipe gas here [19:04]
BingoBoingo: Anyways, my zimbabwe is prolly less zimbabwe than yours. [19:05]
asciilifeform: point being, the time will come when $infrastructure explodes and is not repaired. [19:05]
asciilifeform: not in a week, not in a month. [19:05]
asciilifeform: like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now. [19:05]
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you say this, but i've never seen fireballs emerging from the asphalt. [19:05]
asciilifeform: and when i get small voltage dip and call repair truck, it shows up in 40 min. [19:06]
asciilifeform: max. [19:06]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Did not emerge from asphale, about 15-20 feet away from asphalt. Crew that exploded pipe was doing some shit to prep the site for an old folks home. [19:06]
asciilifeform: nor are washington bridges yet falling. [19:06]
asciilifeform: note also that the far east ghost towns in su, but moscow is not. [19:08]
asciilifeform: like it or not, 'good things flow to the city' [19:08]
asciilifeform: (as do the scum, yes) [19:09]
* asciilifeform bbl. [19:09]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now. << this makes one hell of a trip btw. [19:09]
mircea_popescu: and tbh, at some point in the 90s moscow was half falling over, actually. [19:10]
mircea_popescu: fortunately no earthquakes. hopefully they mostly fixed it. [19:10]
mircea_popescu: bucharest was in the same position. [19:10]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: washington bridges might not be falling, but what kind of a nation's capital closes light rail lines ? [19:18]
hanbot: didn't i see some pic or other of moscow's main freeway, >15 lanes, absolutely gridlocked? [19:22]
hanbot: not sure alive > dead [19:25]
mircea_popescu: that was the roaring 2010s tho neh ? [19:27]
mod6: good convo today re: ada/c/math machine, etc. [19:46]
mod6: i want math machine [19:46]
pete_dushenski: later tell ben_vulpes i can see why you like that shelbyllet : it's aircraft meets muscle car. and wouldja check out that inboard/pushrod suspension! mega-nifty. largely unseen on street cars outside lambo aventador ($500k) and, of course, pagani ($1mn+++) [19:53]
gribble: The operation succeeded. [19:53]
mod6: pete_dushenski: hey I did get your message about the weird balance thing. i've seen that myself too. [19:55]
mod6: wallet sucks shit [19:55]
pete_dushenski: omfg do they ever [19:55]
deedbot-: [] BitBet auction: a winrar is znort987 - [19:56]
pete_dushenski: not like i wasn't planning how i'd overcome this retardation if i was going to be handling >100 txen per mo, but hey, someone else's problem now i guess [19:56]
mod6: asciilifeform: thanks for the ada link [20:01]
davout: <<< i just did, ty! [20:03]
davout: <<< sorry! i have to admit i was slightly disappointed to see you didn't take bb home [20:04]
pete_dushenski: davout: cheers. you're probably not the only one who would've preferred known and (somewhat) trusted owner vs. unknown quantity, but hey money talks and bullshit walks. [20:06]
mod6: btw, these logs could use a hh:mm:ss ts on the front [20:06]
mod6: glad to be back reading the logs though. [20:07]
mod6: so cheers for getting them up and going. :] [20:07]
ButtNewsButt: [20:07]
deedbot-: [Qntra] BitBet Auction Closes - [20:07]
mircea_popescu: mod6 they have it on mouseover. [20:09]
davout: BingoBoingo: the "highest bid at 86 Bitcoin" link has extra spaces [20:09]
mod6: mircea_popescu: ooh. huh. no wonder i didn't see it. [20:10]
BingoBoingo: davout: fxd'd I think? [20:11]
davout: BingoBoingo: half fixed [20:11]
mircea_popescu: davout to try and get a final settlement here, i owe you 199.45006789, add to which 13.37 you owe me 86 for to be distributed to the shareholders, add to which 4.83378422 from the hotwallet, add to which 3.35043347 (335.04334737×.01), comes to 118.63585027 altogether. that sound right ? winner pay you yet ? [20:11]
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: Znor987 << there's a "t" in there [20:13]
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Not in the name as he presented it with the winning bid [20:13]
BingoBoingo: davout: I am not seeing extra spaces in there [20:14]
mircea_popescu: in a stroke of incomprehensible, ancient beings brilliance, minimal value of bitbet as established by signed contract in 2012 (100 btc) is almost within 10% of liquidation value of bitbet as established by free market / receiver, of ~89.35. [20:15]
davout: BingoBoingo: [20:15]
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: ya, that's weird, i guess i goes by both ? [20:15]
BingoBoingo: davout: Should be fixed [20:15]
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: notbadatall [20:15]
davout: mircea_popescu: lemme check all that tomorrow when i'm fully woken up :D [20:15]
mircea_popescu: davout werks. [20:16]
davout: the payment has just arrived [20:16]
mircea_popescu: cool beans. [20:16]
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: I am tentatively adding the t as per davout's announcement [20:17]
mircea_popescu: woulda sucked if we had to redo it or w/e bs. [20:17]
mod6: leibniz invented that mechanical calculator right? [20:18]
BingoBoingo: davout: Now it should be fixed, but I do not see anything wrong with hyperlink extending to trailing space. [20:18]
mod6: like early 17th century? [20:18]
asciilifeform: mod6: complicated. [20:18]
mircea_popescu: mod6 he certainly made one [20:18]
davout: BingoBoingo: aha [20:18]
mircea_popescu: who invented the thing is iffy, many people did [20:18]
mod6: oh, yeah, probably not the first or anything. [20:18]
BingoBoingo: greeks might have made them too [20:18]
mod6: for his dad's accounting practice or what not... [20:19]
asciilifeform: pascal had a very leibnizian 'pascaline' [20:19]
asciilifeform: (which i always for some reason picture as something like a guillotine!11 but it was a calculator.) [20:19]
mircea_popescu: in truth clockworkery had been a slowly evolving craft since greek antiquity. [20:19]
mod6: ah yeah, i read about all of this recently because of our discussions lately. [20:19]
BingoBoingo: [20:19]
mod6: meanwhile, the 30 years war raged [20:19]
asciilifeform: aha, earliest known clockwork calc is 'antikythera mechanism' [20:19]
mod6: got off on that tangent too [20:19]
asciilifeform: condemned to the pascaline!11 [20:20]
asciilifeform: [20:22]
asciilifeform: << moar [20:22]
mod6: yeah, thats the thing [20:22]
mod6: oh yeah, leibniz created the 'stepped reckoner' right? [20:23]
danielpbarron: >> pete_dushenski> o sorry that, left those out because unsigned << signature wasn't required! [20:24]
pete_dushenski: until it was [20:25]
mod6: maybe i was smoking crack. got him a bit confused with pascal and the war, and the accounting bit [20:25]
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: like soap, once a few people start using it... [20:25]
danielpbarron: i'm not convinced putting so much signed material out there was even the right way to have done that.. [20:26]
asciilifeform: just don't sign nonspecific grunts [20:27]
asciilifeform: problem solved. [20:27]
asciilifeform: yes, there live idiots who sign 'yes' and 'no'. don't be them. [20:27]
mircea_popescu: word. [20:28]
asciilifeform: conversely, don't ~accept~ grunts. [20:28]
mircea_popescu: even word-er. [20:28]
mod6: is it a real thing about turing and the HH thing? [20:28]
mircea_popescu: "yes" only means something among the sort of idiots that'd take that. [20:28]
mod6: i mean, did that happen? [20:28]
asciilifeform: mod6: is what ? [20:28]
mircea_popescu: ideally the way to do this is, auction master gives out a hash, everyone must include it [20:28]
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY like V. [20:28]
asciilifeform: aha. [20:29]
mircea_popescu: but i imagine davout has been taking notes on how to do this and for sure a good question in any future receiver selection will be "what have you learned from bitbet liquidation process" [20:29]
mod6: maybe im not talking about the same thing... turing, while trying to crack enigma [20:30]
asciilifeform: mod6: what about turing [20:30]
asciilifeform: is there a skipped log line..? [20:30]
mod6: i understand that he realized many cipher text messages were signed with "HH" at the end. [20:30]
asciilifeform: heil hitler aha [20:31]
mod6: such is a bad idea to sign small amounts of text, grunts, w/e [20:31]
asciilifeform: mod6: if you have a known-plaintext vulnerable cipher, yes. [20:32]
asciilifeform: mod6: for a good example of one that ~isn't~ - see the epic mircea_popescu thread with otp! [20:32]
mod6: sure. good habits are hard to form, bad habits are hard to break. etc. [20:32]
mod6: ah, werd. [20:33]
* pete_dushenski to choir to sing his sorrows, concert just days away. [20:37]
asciilifeform: $up mthreat [20:45]
deedbot: mthreat voiced for 30 minutes. [20:45]
mthreat: jeez i take a little trip and there's a revolution [20:46]
asciilifeform: welcome to the new planet mthreat [20:48]
mthreat: thanks [20:49]
asciilifeform: mthreat: incidentally, the old wot was imported, you oughta be able to voice yourself. [20:50]
mthreat: $up [20:51]
deedbot: Get your OTP: [20:51]
BingoBoingo: bc,stats [21:14]
gribble: Current Blocks: 406236 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 995 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes, and 54 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [21:14]
BingoBoingo: ticker --market all --currency rmb [21:14]
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2730.74, vol: 18421.94310000 | Volume-weighted last average: 2730.74 [21:14]
mod6: asciilifeform: this guys introduction to Ada looks like a really good tut. [21:20]
mircea_popescu: where to mthreat ? [22:14]
phf: v patches are back online at [22:37]
phf: i've been getting a lot of not founds to those urls, so hopefully some of the bots are now going to be satisfied [22:38]
phf: (ping) [23:18]
BingoBoingo: pong [23:20]
Category: Logs
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