Forum logs for 31 Jan 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95586 @ 0.00055797 = 53.3341 BTC [-] {2}	[00:00]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 106900 @ 0.00055754 = 59.601 BTC [-] {4}	[00:19]
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pete_dushenski	who wants to see a funny bitbet oopsie ?	[00:30]
pete_dushenski	https://bitbet.us/bet/1228/bitcoin-network-hits-1-exahash/#b1 https://bitbet.us/bet/1228/bitcoin-network-hits-1-exahash/#b3 << same out address for 0conf and house bet !	[00:30]
assbot	BitBet - Bitcoin Network Hits 1 Exahash :: 105.65 B (96%) on Yes, 3.93 B (4%) on No \| closed 4 days 9 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzTYzD )	[00:30]
assbot	BitBet - Bitcoin Network Hits 1 Exahash :: 105.65 B (96%) on Yes, 3.93 B (4%) on No \| closed 4 days 9 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzU1f4 )	[00:30]
pete_dushenski	so unless bitbet is now drafting and seeding their own proposals...	[00:31]
pete_dushenski	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1389535 << that's... just horrendous.	[00:31]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 00:52:27; assbot: سيارة Elibreia القطرية تجذب جميع الأنظار نحوها \| ArabGT ... ( http://bit.ly/23z6Ltt )	[00:31]
pete_dushenski	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dhjwWhlk5Q << left by a contravex commenter. i lollered. (for those who watch videos only)	[00:34]
assbot	Russell Peters White people are not racist - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzU8XV )	[00:34]
pete_dushenski	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Yww_nYuFA << and in other videos, why NOT put a wwi airship engine WITH 3`000 LB-FT OF TORQUE in a 1905 fiat isotta fraschini ? seems reasonable.	[00:36]
assbot	Insane 127MPH WWI engined Fiat Isotta - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzUhuv )	[00:36]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: Smaller house bet has alway gone to the person proposing the bet on BitBet	[00:38]
pete_dushenski	in computing terms, ^ would be like putting 256gb ecc ram, 16-core amd fx and gaming vid card in an ipad.	[00:38]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: o.O	[00:38]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: It's not new. It's something that has always been brough up as part of BitBet's marketing for people to submit interesting proposals	[00:39]
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pete_dushenski	so if 0.01 - 0.04 btc house bet wins, it goes to proposer ?	[00:40]
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BingoBoingo	yeah	[00:41]
BingoBoingo	Always has	[00:41]
pete_dushenski	damn. and here i was thinking i was fucking zheng he.	[00:42]
pete_dushenski	"Because of this EPA wall, the market is currently dominated by low-level ethanol blends, such as “E10” (10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline). That has prevented mid-level ethanol fuels, such as E25 or E30, from widely reaching American consumers. If allowed full market access, mid-level ethanol products like E25 or E30 could prove quite popular with American consumers, who are increasingly concerned	[00:44]
pete_dushenski	with fuel economy."	[00:44]
pete_dushenski	^from teddy cruz, who just lost alf's vote by the looks of it	[00:44]
pete_dushenski	how and by what fluke of fisics cruz thinks that eXX burns ~more~ efficiently than 100% gas is anyone's guess	[00:46]
pete_dushenski	additionally, with a gallon of gas a ~$1 stateside, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT FUEL ECONOMY	[00:47]
pete_dushenski	do corn producers what to put their products everywhere and anywhere, from building materials to groceries ? ofc. but that has nothing to do with consumers.	[00:48]
pete_dushenski	obligatory : http://www.contravex.com/2015/10/09/is-this-corn-free/	[00:48]
assbot	“Is this corn-free?” \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzURbJ )	[00:48]
pete_dushenski	why teddy can't just frame his position as "e30 is even LESS efficient which is good for both corn and oil producers" is anyone's guess. trump owns honesty, apparently.	[00:50]
mircea_popescu	assbot> California Environmentalists Fight To Save Endangered Nuclear Plant <<< had to dbl take. then lulz floweth	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	"The DC neglected to turn the thing back on after SSD installation" <<< o.O	[00:51]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Note the categories it was filed under	[00:52]
pete_dushenski	"The three vehicles averaged 1.5% lower mileage with E10, 2.2% lower mileage with E20, 5.1% lower mileage with E30" << from some study by the american coalition for ethanol.	[00:52]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski> so unless bitbet is now drafting and seeding their own proposals... << this isn't even new.	[00:52]
pete_dushenski	but i... apparently am	[00:53]
pete_dushenski	bbias	[00:54]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: It's just residual pregnancy fog affecting your brain. It'll clear in 17 years	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	anyway. in no sense is ethanol LESS fuel intensive than gasoline. the alternatives are oil->refinery->gasoline for gasoline, or oil->refinery->chem feed->chem plant->fertilizer->farm->corn->ethanol plant->ethanol.	[00:54]
mircea_popescu	you get about 1 to 5% less mileage per barrel in the 2nd approach, as should be obvious. you neverthelss get 5x the "jobs" and 20 to 50x the imaginary industrial assets.	[00:55]
mircea_popescu	so, as they quite aptly say, it's a no brainer.	[00:55]
mod6	hehehe	[00:56]
mod6	unreal isn't it	[00:56]
mod6	gas here $1.55 today	[00:57]
mod6	in other news, i can't seem to get -setvernum to work either? or how can I tell that it worked?	[01:00]
mod6	http://dpaste.com/124WDD3.txt	[01:00]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1nVwTOE )	[01:00]
phf	huh, so everything matches except for headers.h	[01:08]
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phf	mod6: hey you mind dpasting your headers.h?	[01:13]
mod6	it's not just headers.h, theres a number of others.	[01:17]
phf	there is? :o i did shasum -a 512 -c foo.txt\|grep -v OK where foo.txt is your dpaste and only headers is not giving me ok.	[01:18]
mod6	oooh. hmm. maybe im looking at this wrong.	[01:19]
mod6	one sec.	[01:19]
mod6	ok yah, its just headers.h	[01:20]
phf	ha	[01:21]
mod6	here's my headers.h : http://dpaste.com/3W0FZVC.txt	[01:21]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1VyutjC )	[01:21]
mod6	# grep "b86114b5b74d2b9e737798f78804439c5cdd0ae42440615c57fc85cb0ac7d8b8a454d2ef44048db6af0ca00a938178173eece431b273462dbc299c1501b86600" ../../../../patches/*	[01:23]
mod6	../../../../patches/bitcoin-asciilifeform.4-goodbye-win32.vpatch:+++ b/bitcoin/src/headers.h b86114b5b74d2b9e737798f78804439c5cdd0ae42440615c57fc85cb0ac7d8b8a454d2ef44048db6af0ca00a938178173eece431b273462dbc299c1501b86600	[01:23]
mod6	i think that is correct	[01:23]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: lol prolly that	[01:24]
BingoBoingo	http://qntra.net/2016/01/networking-equipment-designated-weapon/	[01:24]
assbot	Networking Equipment Designated Weapon System \| Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1VyuG6g )	[01:24]
phf	i somehow have an extra newline there :o	[01:25]
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mod6	so if ascii's V 'origin' command would take a hash as a parameter then show you the vpatch where it was touched, that would be helpful.	[01:25]
mod6	i should look into this	[01:25]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: it's sorta incredible that the fiatists who need infinite growth all want to cut their own throats with reduced consumption while tmsr~, who doesn't want anything to do with infinite growth, is buying and consuming like it's going out of style	[01:25]
mod6	or even give a source file name, then output all the vpatches that touch it & their before & after hashes, or something.	[01:26]
mod6	!up asciilifeform	[01:26]
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*	asciilifeform finally puts away vacuum.	[01:27]
phf	mod6: sorry, this is entirely a non issue, i'm debugging a pure lisp presser, i.e. parsing vpatch files and then doing in memory press. everything presses, but that one file has an extra newline	[01:27]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: saw that nyooz elsewhere yesterday, also found it odd to classify 'firewall' as 'weapon' but hey, not like words mean things in usistan	[01:27]
asciilifeform	phf: reimplemented pgp verify ?	[01:27]
mod6	phf: ahh, very cool though. as im sitting here reading sicp im thinking that maybe how i can learn scheme is by writing V in it -- at some point.	[01:27]
mod6	need to read more first heheh.	[01:28]
phf	asciilifeform: you know just the right kind of questions to ask :)	[01:29]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100750 @ 0.00056042 = 56.4623 BTC [+] {4}	[01:30]
phf	i'm curious if there's enough machinery in ironclad to give me support to do a pgp verify rewrite	[01:31]
asciilifeform	there is not.	[01:31]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: Yeah, lots of interesting oddities came out to end the month.	[01:31]
asciilifeform	phf: no rsa in there. will have to write it.	[01:31]
pete_dushenski	http://qntra.net/2016/01/networking-equipment-designated-weapon/#comment-44205	[01:31]
assbot	Networking Equipment Designated Weapon System \| Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1JQRU79 )	[01:32]
phf	i have that patched gpgme version though, can always punt into the ugly land. i'm going to tackle diff first though, seems like a significant hole in my algo knowledge	[01:32]
pete_dushenski	mod6: in other news, i can't seem to get -setvernum to work either? or how can I tell that it worked? << hm. has anyone actually used 'version-strings' in praxis ? seems like several failed attempts now.	[01:33]
mod6	yeah, i'm curious here.	[01:34]
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pete_dushenski	!up p15x	[01:35]
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mircea_popescu	assbot> Networking Equipment Designated Weapon System \| << speaking of which, i fully expect the first usg-designed bitcoin miners to be designated exactly that.	[01:36]
BingoBoingo	You mean the Buttfurry double stack shipping container thing?	[01:37]
phf	"patch" is surprisingly trivial once you get past unified diff format parsing, http://paste.lisp.org/display/306234	[01:37]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1VyvuIv )	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu: it's sorta incredible that the fiatists who need infinite growth all want to cut their own throats with reduced consumption while tmsr~, who doesn't want anything to do with infinite growth, is buying and consuming like it's going out of style << actually, best estimate i can get puts TMSR GDP growth for 2015 somewhere around 450-500%. that's not 4.5-5%. it's not 45-50% either.	[01:37]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Or the 21.co PiTaTo	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	and by the looks of january, Q1 2016 might actually beat that.	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	so... glhf, but never in the history of sovereigns has there been such a wonder etc.	[01:38]
asciilifeform	waiwut	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	to which part ?	[01:39]
asciilifeform	tmsr gdp...	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	apply common accounting standards to the work done, see what it adds up to.	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	if you produce a mythical man-month's code for trb, that adds the accounting value of a man-month to the tmsr gdp whether you mean for it to or not.	[01:40]
asciilifeform	denominated in what, martian bzortls ?	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	any currency of your choice.	[01:41]
danielpbarron	Eulora alone..	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	commonly usd, seeing how gdp is a usd thing.	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron yeah but he wouldn't be familiar with that.	[01:42]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski mod6 i never used server thing myself.	[01:42]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: humour me, show how to denote that man-month in usd.	[01:42]
mircea_popescu	admitting you're worth what sv pays for top talent, comes to about 60k or so.	[01:43]
mircea_popescu	iirc the per-capital costs are in the 700-750k bracket pa.	[01:44]
mircea_popescu	per-capita* i mean	[01:44]
mircea_popescu	AND, to add to the list of wonders, all that growth is financed purely through unbacked deficit spending!	[01:45]
mircea_popescu	tmsr really is what usg aspires to be, funnily enough.	[01:45]
asciilifeform	what's an isis mujahed worth, per capita, in usd ?	[01:46]
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asciilifeform	(how much must one pay on open market to get somebody to allah-snackbar)	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	i think that's undefined, in the general. in the narrow particular, iirc blackwater charges something like 1.2-1.5. depends on various factors, but thereabouts.	[01:47]
mircea_popescu	if they gotta drone it tho, it gets a lot worse.	[01:47]
asciilifeform	mod6: i officially pronounce the verstring patch to be buggy and unfit for inclusion in its present state	[01:48]
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asciilifeform	will be happy to produce an antimatter patch for it if this is needed.	[01:48]
mircea_popescu	meh, how about fixing things rather than putting in and taking out.	[01:49]
asciilifeform	would love to, but so far i do not understand why the setting mechanism does not work.	[01:49]
mircea_popescu	i dunno exactly why it was decided to have it in, but now it's in, so...	[01:49]
pete_dushenski	ver 99999 is fine by me	[01:50]
pete_dushenski	does what it needs to do	[01:50]
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BingoBoingo	Spreading works! (TM)/(R)	[01:50]
asciilifeform	likewise it appears that the shiva patch has an issue, you end up having to LC_ALL="C" ./bitcoind -shivainit=./shiva/init.scm -shiva getinfo	[01:50]
asciilifeform	to get rpc	[01:50]
asciilifeform	this is a 1 line fix tho	[01:51]
asciilifeform	here are 2 opportunities for eagle eyes!	[01:51]
mod6	<+pete_dushenski> ver 99999 is fine by me << yeah, this is fine. but the fact that it doesn't do what it should do isn't. i'll pull the patch tomorrow.	[01:51]
pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: isn't tmsr also what most every organisation everywhere since ever aspired to be ?	[01:51]
mod6	and i'll also have to "re-grind" my high/low S patch	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	well yeah.	[01:52]
mod6	(since its antecedent is PVS)	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	mod6 incidentally found the correct way to undo things.	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	everyone has to rebase and so will hate you if you make them do it.	[01:52]
mircea_popescu	this is a good thing.	[01:52]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109800 @ 0.00055693 = 61.1509 BTC [-] {3}	[01:53]
asciilifeform	i'd much prefer antimatter	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	also crucially evident why patches must be thematic.	[01:53]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and polarbeard would much prefer large patches. you don't get what you prefer.	[01:53]
asciilifeform	we did it for the db locks fix	[01:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00056044 = 8.2385 BTC [+]	[01:54]
asciilifeform	but whatever	[01:54]
mircea_popescu	we weren't smart back then.	[01:54]
mod6	<+asciilifeform> i'd much prefer antimatter << this imho sets kindof an nasty precedent: just adding anitmatter patches, bloat for the tree. a hundred years from now there might be more anti-matter than matter patches!	[01:54]
mircea_popescu	im pretty sure he gets it.	[01:54]
mod6	<+asciilifeform> we did it for the db locks fix << this is fair. would have to had to regrind everything after last march :/	[01:55]
mod6	and... its maybe slightly different since the first patch was inclued in the first release.	[01:56]
mod6	we cant exactly rewrite history there.	[01:56]
mircea_popescu	"let one stick suffice per cartload of china"	[01:57]
mod6	since this one is new, and its not in a release, its not horrible. i'd prefer just to fix whatever might be wrong in there and resubmit & regrind high/low	[01:57]
mircea_popescu	or however you say that in english.	[01:57]
mod6	asciilifeform: totally up to you in that respect.	[01:57]
asciilifeform	mod6: do what you must.	[01:58]
mod6	maybe i'll try to debug it a bit, see if i can get it to work.	[01:58]
asciilifeform	i'ma try & figure out why the version set thing doesn't go	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	:)	[01:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42670 @ 0.0005654 = 24.1256 BTC [+] {2}	[02:00]
*	assbot removes voice from p15x	[02:06]
mircea_popescu	copypaste http://trilema.com/2016/alright-i-give-up/	[02:10]
assbot	Alright, I give up. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7t68 )	[02:10]
asciilifeform	Achtung, Panzers!	[02:10]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al:	[02:10]
asciilifeform	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000202.html	[02:10]
assbot	[BTC-dev] Shiva bug fix. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7ven )	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	wait shouldn't shiva 2 be restated instead ?	[02:11]
BingoBoingo	https://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/kcma-d8.html << Newly liberated board	[02:12]
assbot	ASUS KCMA-D8 server/workstation board ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7yqk )	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	that's a pretty sweet board.	[02:13]
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BingoBoingo	Dual opteron, apparently only text mode works but who needs graphics when you have two opterons?	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	i'd definitely add him to the top of the list of providers for colocation.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo server graphics ?	[02:15]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Dual opteron could be useful in workstation.	[02:15]
BingoBoingo	For build box, etc	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	i have no idea why anyone'd keep locally a box they don't actually use to play games on, but hey.	[02:16]
mircea_popescu	if it computes it belongs in a dc.	[02:16]
BingoBoingo	To yell at of course!	[02:16]
BingoBoingo	Also in the things to yell at department http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/163163264/puppy-bowl-animal-planet-super-bowl	[02:18]
assbot	It's Puppy Bowl season once again. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pq7Sp4 )	[02:18]
BingoBoingo	"The fun doesn't stop at just watching the Puppy Bowl, though. Like in all sports now, fantasy Puppy Bowl is huge, and you can go to Animal Planet's website to draft your fantasy Puppy Bowl squad. You pick three dogs to go up against your friends. There's a scorecard and everything. I went on and drafted my team, and I think I have a strong chance to come out on top in Puppy Bowl fantasy. I mean, just look at this lineup. Bijoux,	[02:18]
BingoBoingo	Wrinkles and Kevin? Talk about a murderer's row."	[02:18]
mircea_popescu	is this what fat people think sports are ?	[02:19]
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BingoBoingo	Yes	[02:19]
BingoBoingo	Except with puppies	[02:19]
pete_dushenski	as played exclusively by the hippies that alf trips over at 'health food store'	[02:20]
pete_dushenski	or is this some ploy to get fillies into competitive fantasy sports ?	[02:21]
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mod6	<+mircea_popescu> wait shouldn't shiva 2 be restated instead ? << this is probably a better. and its not even in the mirror at this point anyway.	[02:22]
mod6	good catch though!	[02:22]
mod6	i apprecaite your efforts here.	[02:22]
mod6	no rush anyway, im gonna pick this stuff back up tomorrow.	[02:23]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: Prolly the later	[02:23]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 225574 @ 0.00055605 = 125.4304 BTC [-] {6}	[02:27]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: didn't some usgmegacorp try something similar recently only to have it backfire spectacularly ?	[02:30]
BingoBoingo	Which time?	[02:30]
pete_dushenski	aha. #hackahairdryer by ibm.	[02:30]
BingoBoingo	But no, the puppybowl has a surprisingly long history.	[02:31]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390735 << i have a very similar board here, a 'tyan'	[02:31]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 05:12:41; mircea_popescu: that's a pretty sweet board.	[02:31]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: werd	[02:31]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390736 << dafuq, who uses mb vga for anything	[02:32]
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assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:11; BingoBoingo: Dual opteron, apparently only text mode works but who needs graphics when you have two opterons?	[02:32]
BingoBoingo	People who want to put it into a mobile enclosure do	[02:32]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390743 << i ain't keeping locally anything that won't push ~5000x5000 pixels	[02:33]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 05:15:11; mircea_popescu: if it computes it belongs in a dc.	[02:33]
asciilifeform	do ~that~ from dc.	[02:33]
pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: how do you have something ~that~ powerful running... silently ? and without iridium toilet ?	[02:33]
asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: it is not silent at all, this is in the logs. and it drives me mad.	[02:34]
asciilifeform	about same noise level as sov refrigerator.	[02:34]
pete_dushenski	aha. you ~wished~ it were silent. i misunderstood. i thought you had it nailed already.	[02:34]
asciilifeform	every so often, i go on a binge of installing gaskets, costly german fans, etc. but the result is always the same:	[02:35]
asciilifeform	machine that sound EXACTLY as annoying	[02:35]
asciilifeform	ear - recalibrates.	[02:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76250 @ 0.00055566 = 42.3691 BTC [-] {3}	[02:35]
asciilifeform	presently installing something quite like iridium toilet - slowly replacing the whole raid with ssd	[02:35]
asciilifeform	(in raid5)	[02:35]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390737 << pcengines co. does this !	[02:37]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:17; mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.	[02:37]
asciilifeform	their board isn't even SOLD with ANYTHING but coreboot (linuxbios)	[02:37]
pete_dushenski	but not in wot	[02:37]
asciilifeform	and it's a g-series. while it lasts.	[02:37]
asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: amd is not in wot, while we're at it	[02:37]
asciilifeform	and is in fact certifiably satanic today	[02:37]
pete_dushenski	we're not at it ?	[02:37]
pete_dushenski	not everything has to drill to the earth's core.	[02:38]
asciilifeform	point being, there are not so many mb makers which ship full schematics.	[02:39]
asciilifeform	and intel-free.	[02:39]
asciilifeform	i know of only 2, actually.	[02:39]
pete_dushenski	tyan and...	[02:40]
asciilifeform	tyan is not on the list	[02:41]
asciilifeform	'pcengines' and 'gizmosphere'	[02:41]
*	pete_dushenski googles, reads	[02:41]
asciilifeform	they sell very similar items	[02:42]
asciilifeform	amd g-series ultraminiature things	[02:42]
*	raedah has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[02:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92619 @ 0.00055501 = 51.4045 BTC [-] {6}	[02:46]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: http://dpaste.com/3RWHY92.txt	[02:50]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1P4WZWj )	[02:50]
BingoBoingo	ty	[02:50]
mircea_popescu	yeah, pcengines could alternatively get in the wot.	[02:51]
asciilifeform	only to get negrated once they run out of g-series ? l0l	[02:51]
asciilifeform	a mb maker is a lowly creature, sorta like a btc miner, follows where the wind blows.	[02:52]
mircea_popescu	yeah well.	[02:52]
asciilifeform	x86 is a moribund thing.	[02:53]
asciilifeform	iirc boards that will boot ~only~ winblowz 10 have already hit the shops.	[02:55]
pete_dushenski	;;later tell danielpbarron please to point mr. lee (https://twitter.com/binarybits) to http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/letter-to-timothy-b-lee-january-28-2016.txt jic it ended up in his email spam filter (and so it's public). gracias amigo!	[02:59]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[02:59]
mircea_popescu	i dun see anyone getting negrated through communicating sanely.	[02:59]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RThPNU )	[02:59]
pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: ipads that only boot iosx were playing the same game before that. mac desktops before that too.	[03:00]
*	pete_dushenski has not tried, say, gentoo on xeon mac, can't confirm	[03:01]
pete_dushenski	"Then in Davos I joined people like Kevin Spacey, and Jimmy Wales (the founder of Wikipedia) on a panel talking about cyber-security. The general sense in the room is that a distributed, encrypted database like the blockchain could be key to creating a more secure computing environment and a more secure world." << now i get why reporters call ~me~ a "security expert", because motherfucking 60yo actors are sittin	[03:04]
pete_dushenski	g on cyber-security panels in davos. now i get it.	[03:04]
pete_dushenski	quote via http://www.thestar.com/business/tech_news/2016/01/23/the-blockchain-big-opportunity-or-big-danger.html	[03:04]
assbot	The blockchain: big opportunity or big danger? \| Toronto Star ... ( http://bit.ly/1P4XAam )	[03:04]
pete_dushenski	author is "Don Tapscott a best-selling author most recently The Digital Economy, Adjunct Professor at the Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto and the chancellor of Trent University."	[03:05]
pete_dushenski	fwvliiw	[03:05]
danielpbarron	pete_dushenski, https://twitter.com/danielpbarron/status/693679552187502592	[03:19]
pete_dushenski	haha perfect	[03:19]
mats	this torontostar shit is replete with english mistakes	[03:21]
mats	nobody takes journalism seriously	[03:22]
pete_dushenski	too busy buying and selling each other's homes	[03:22]
mats	>The enthusiasm was in stark contrast to my next meeting meeting—with 60 CEO’s of big banks banks.	[03:22]
mats	what the actual fuck fuck	[03:23]
pete_dushenski	lel	[03:24]
pete_dushenski	no one could've predicted that reading trash rags gets one riled up	[03:24]
mats	;;seen nubbins`	[03:27]
gribble	nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 48 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <+mircea_popescu> in other news, chick on okcupid : "porque no me escribis en castellano << they say castellano in peru too, but if i'm not mistaken this is not universal in south america?	[03:27]
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*	BingoBoingo is now known as PeteBlawgBot	[03:28]
PeteBlawgBot	http://qntra.net/2016/01/chiraqi-police-sabotaging-surveillance-equipment/	[03:28]
assbot	Chiraqi Police Sabotaging Surveillance Equipment \| Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTjYcz )	[03:28]
*	PeteBlawgBot is now known as BingoBoingo	[03:28]
BingoBoingo	In other Chiraqi news http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/obama-to-address-deeply-divided-illinois-legislature/article_10ce4082-8178-5fc9-92dd-d093852c661f.html	[03:34]
assbot	Obama to address deeply divided Illinois Legislature : News ... ( http://bit.ly/1P4ZiZe )	[03:34]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: l0l!	[03:34]
BingoBoingo	Obama is finally going attend an Illinois senate session	[03:35]
mircea_popescu	dude who the fuck are kevin spacey and jimbo wales already.	[03:37]
mircea_popescu	the consensus among kim kardashian, zsa zsa gabor, hussein bahamas and that guy from cheers is that a kilogram of feathers really should be lighter than a kilogram of derp entrails.	[03:38]
mircea_popescu	in other news of similar weight and importance, leyla black was kinda hot a decade ago.	[03:39]
BingoBoingo	^ totally	[03:40]
*	SuchWow has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[03:40]
mircea_popescu	not really her retarded totemcash/loadedcash/twistys idiotic stuff. but she did some ok outdoor work back in the day.	[03:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91900 @ 0.00056673 = 52.0825 BTC [+] {3}	[03:42]
*	mircea_popescu does the leyla black with new girls to this very day.	[03:43]
BingoBoingo	lol, yeah these thinks are kinda transient	[03:43]
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ben_vulpes	what is "the leyla black"?	[03:50]
*	punkman1 is now known as punkman	[03:54]
*	assbot gives voice to punkman	[03:55]
ben_vulpes	http://www.northofreality.com/secrets/ << bit of a shame that aramcheck's not in the wot and on patreon, i like his weirdfic.	[03:55]
punkman	btw the ASUS KCMA-D8 port was offered for $15k, wonder who paid it https://www.mail-archive.com/coreboot@coreboot.org/msg45741.html	[03:55]
assbot	Secrets — NORTH OF REALITY ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTmb7L )	[03:55]
assbot	[coreboot] ASUS KCMA-D8 workstation board port offer ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTmb7V )	[03:55]
punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390737 < I've been considering that for a while, but I'm not really into junkyard-wars	[03:57]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:17; mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.	[03:57]
punkman	although I guess these Asus boards are still being made at the factory	[03:58]
ben_vulpes	yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings?	[04:05]
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punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390063 sure, if I can get low-power machine with ECC, I probably wouldn't mind the slower cores for most uses. These looked kinda neat http://www.tilera.com/products/?ezchip=585&spage=618	[04:06]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 18:26:28; jurov: asciilifeform: there are more "server ARM" things coming out... << you really want like, 64 shitty cores on the workstation instead of 4x x86?	[04:06]
assbot	EZchip \| TILE-Gx72 ... ( http://bit.ly/1QA3kvl )	[04:06]
punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390202 gonna need an audio track to go with that	[04:12]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 19:45:55; danielpbarron: get nubbins` or someone to make some nice artwork on it and i'll buy	[04:12]
punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390334 what does rebase mean here? it's a term of art in version control	[04:13]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 01:25:55; mircea_popescu: ideally, you go read the whole fucking thing, rebase and sign as your own.	[04:13]
ben_vulpes	has anyone else noticed the following when using build-bitcoind-9999*K.sh?	[04:13]
ben_vulpes	"gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"?	[04:13]
pete_dushenski	ben_vulpes: need korsgaard's key	[04:14]
ben_vulpes	punkman: by my read 'rebase' as mircea_popescu uses it means 'dump into the v tree'	[04:14]
pete_dushenski	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-01-2016#1358799	[04:14]
assbot	Logged on 02-01-2016 05:43:08; phf: gpg: key 59C36319: public key "Peter Korsgaard " imported	[04:14]
ben_vulpes	pete_dushenski: nah, because i get "good signature from korsgaard"	[04:14]
pete_dushenski	oh hm. i dunno then. sorry	[04:15]
ben_vulpes	but this fucking term just lost my motherfucking scrollback, because people reinventing wheels for os x have no historical context	[04:15]
punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390083 < might be good as a separate utility. cuts down on v.pl dependencies too.	[04:15]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 18:38:04; mod6: is it worthwhile to rip out my graphing stuff out of V?	[04:15]
*	ben_vulpes goes digging through the gui for "never ever fucking toss my scrollback option"	[04:15]
*	pete_dushenski to dream of quieter nights	[04:16]
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punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390090 several weeks of testing just for V? good god my dear fellow	[04:17]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 18:40:13; mod6: so -- i might need several weeks at min to test out v99995 of V	[04:17]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all	[04:17]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 378.72, vol: 2286.81911093 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 382.491, vol: 2894.33858 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 378.35, vol: 7789.42880116 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 380.0, vol: 0.41873277 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 384.104, vol: 39441.74380000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 380.99979, vol: 189.24228801 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 382.3343, vol: 18.40843268 \| Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)	[04:17]
BingoBoingo	;;more	[04:17]
gribble	382.917712561	[04:17]
ben_vulpes	punkman: "he's a good man, and thorough"	[04:17]
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punkman	on second read I hope it just means mod6 would be busy doing other things	[04:20]
ben_vulpes	unrelatedly, while we're ripping the rug out from under mod6, is there a good reason to continue with the inconsistent directory structure of `./.seals' and `./patches'?	[04:20]
punkman	ben_vulpes: how is it inconsistent?	[04:21]
ben_vulpes	well one is prefixed with the stupid unix hidden-file/dir period convention	[04:21]
punkman	oooh right	[04:21]
punkman	I just have ./sigs ./patches in vit	[04:22]
ben_vulpes	mhm	[04:23]
ben_vulpes	punkman: vit's a v.py descendant, correct?	[04:23]
punkman	no, complete rewrite	[04:25]
ben_vulpes	ever share it?	[04:25]
punkman	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000166.html	[04:25]
assbot	[BTC-dev] Some test patches and my V implementation ... ( http://bit.ly/1NZjGPg )	[04:25]
ben_vulpes	aha	[04:26]
ben_vulpes	nifty	[04:26]
punkman	I did start with v.py, but mangled most things	[04:27]
punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-01-2016#1389213 << gotta figure out a way to minimize the re-grinding imho	[04:28]
assbot	Logged on 29-01-2016 20:20:44; ascii_butugychag: the reason why i once suggested breaking up all patches into atomic patchons is that right now we have a stricter than necessary dependency flow	[04:28]
punkman	why I kept saying that I don't like release patches that touch everything	[04:29]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell mod6 i got v.pl into a weird place where it didn't clean up its gnupg tempdir. perhaps consider using an "exit_gracefully" function where you're currently simply "die"-ing.	[04:32]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[04:32]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell mod6 alternatively, consider using mktemp -d	[04:33]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[04:33]
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ben_vulpes	i am struck by a question i find interesting	[04:35]
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ben_vulpes	is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?	[04:36]
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ben_vulpes	this is probably a purposes and causes thing, huh. avoid working towards the purpose of usable software for other people, and proceed from the cause of "hell is other people's code"...	[04:37]
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ben_vulpes	;;later tell mod6 stick a random file with .html suffix in the patches dir to reproduce the stale gnupg dir big	[04:39]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[04:39]
ben_vulpes	bug*	[04:40]
ben_vulpes	probably any non-vpatch file'd do the trick.	[04:40]
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punkman	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390093 would provide hands-off testing to see whether your new patch compiles to different archs, with different libc, etc. think jenkins	[04:55]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 18:41:43; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1389596 << what would this be good for? you are welcome to sign + post the binaries to ml yourself	[04:55]
punkman	ben_vulpes: what happened to your buildatron?	[04:55]
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ben_vulpes	punkman: jenkins? or v.lisp?	[05:00]
ben_vulpes	or ak47.sh?	[05:00]
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ben_vulpes	i shut the jenkins down because full syncs of each patch was prohibitively resource and time intensive and parallelized poorly	[05:01]
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ben_vulpes	v.lisp has just been languishing on the island of poorly written and embarassing software	[05:02]
punkman	what's ak47.sh	[05:02]
ben_vulpes	and buildroot handily obsoleted ak47.sh	[05:02]
*	samO_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[05:02]
ben_vulpes	a well polished bash turd	[05:03]
ben_vulpes	http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2015/02/01_hacking-on-the-satoshi-codebase-some-pointers.html	[05:03]
assbot	Hacking on the Satoshi Codebase: Some Pointers ... ( http://bit.ly/200Hrru )	[05:03]
ben_vulpes	never for battle	[05:04]
punkman	what's a full sync in jenkins?	[05:04]
ben_vulpes	another entry in the long list of things i've written that never made it into the truck	[05:04]
ben_vulpes	trunk*	[05:04]
ben_vulpes	a full sync of each bitcoind produced by each patch sent to the ml	[05:06]
punkman	just the compiling part and maybe the existing unit tests would be good enough	[05:06]
punkman	I'd help rig it up if the foundation so wishes	[05:06]
ben_vulpes	heh	[05:07]
ben_vulpes	funnily enough i just nuked its builddir	[05:07]
ben_vulpes	this was god i don't know how many months ago	[05:07]
ben_vulpes	dunno man i don't actually think it's of much value. having actual humans in the actual wot build things is much more important.	[05:08]
ben_vulpes	scripting the whole process in the context of "continuous integration servers" is nifty, but finding the noob caltrops is also important.	[05:08]
ben_vulpes	punkman: you could always contribute to b,tmsr's deficit by standing the jenkins instance up yourself.	[05:09]
ben_vulpes	ah wait no that wasn't ak47.sh	[05:10]
ben_vulpes	punkman: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2015/06/21_a-tour-of-bitcoind-booting-to-its-first-thread.html << in there	[05:11]
assbot	a tour of bitcoind booting to its first thread ... ( http://bit.ly/1ONsjId )	[05:11]
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ben_vulpes	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html << i swear i saw some mentione of this earlier but cannot find it now. for those playing along at home, the sig name for these patches that will please v.pl is .vpatch..asc	[05:58]
assbot	[BTC-dev] Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge. ... ( http://bit.ly/1SfJl8P )	[05:58]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell mod6 i believe i have a bug for you: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/8d9ad794-4b47-407e-9db4-a9a8cb2c70b4/	[06:10]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[06:10]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/20fwNTi )	[06:10]
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ben_vulpes	;;later tell jurov and eulorans et al you might want to look into this tinyscheme thing	[06:14]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[06:14]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell diana_coman ^^	[06:15]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[06:15]
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*	assbot gives voice to diana_coman	[06:26]
diana_coman	thanks ben_vulpes , I'll have a look; it's been ages since I last wrote anything in Scheme as such, but if there's a chance of moving the client away from cpp it's certainly worth having a look at	[06:27]
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ben_vulpes	diana_coman: i doubt you'll move the client away from cpp, but tinyscheme is a potential route to embedding scheme /in/ the existing client.	[06:34]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform plans to use it to inspect memory of running bitcoinds in real time	[06:35]
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ben_vulpes	diana_coman: relevant barebones howto: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000198.html	[06:36]
assbot	[BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Introducing: Shiva. ... ( http://bit.ly/1SN6qPP )	[06:36]
ben_vulpes	( http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390952 << among other things, ofc)	[06:37]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 09:33:50; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform plans to use it to inspect memory of running bitcoinds in real time	[06:37]
diana_coman	well, there is no hard requirement as such to have the client written in cpp; but it's true that it's quite a huge effort to make an alternative, sane client (for one thing, I'd love a text-only client for instance)	[06:38]
ben_vulpes	diana_coman: no hard requirement, sure, i just imagine that replacing the crystalspace client's going to be no small pile of reverse engineering. i say this knowing nothing about the cs server/client software relationship.	[06:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115900 @ 0.00055539 = 64.3697 BTC [-] {2}	[07:08]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117200 @ 0.00055835 = 65.4386 BTC [+] {2}	[07:22]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107750 @ 0.00056069 = 60.4143 BTC [+] {2}	[07:42]
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jurov	ben_vulpes: eulora code is several levels more crooked than satoshi's, i tried to ffi python and left that for later in disgust.	[08:08]
jurov	that aside, there are completely different set of requirements, like, easy debugging. if lisp, then rather something with slime and good library bundled.	[08:11]
BingoBoingo	https://www.rt.com/op-edge/330710-politics-america-hate-intolerance/ >> "In these times, the ‘little guy’ cannot afford to pay rent on the trailer home, not to mention a bottle of brew. The ‘little guy’ now possesses a large amount of anger about the political system that doesn't work for him, which shouldn’t be surprising since he repeatedly voted against his own interests during the republican tenure. Or, on the other	[08:13]
BingoBoingo	hand, he voted for change advanced by the Obama team’s marketing "hopium" which resulted in him running in circles backwards in socio-economic terms."	[08:13]
assbot	Politics of hate and intolerance alive & well in America’s ‘flyover country' — RT Op-Edge ... ( http://bit.ly/1VyPnit )	[08:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130300 @ 0.00055309 = 72.0676 BTC [-] {6}	[08:14]
*	shinohai would adore this >>> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390957	[08:24]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 09:36:51; diana_coman: well, there is no hard requirement as such to have the client written in cpp; but it's true that it's quite a huge effort to make an alternative, sane client (for one thing, I'd love a text-only client for instance)	[08:24]
jurov	eulora altclient is not exactly about "reverse engineering", but that the network protocol layer uses C++ primitives with liberally mixed preprocessor and templates	[08:25]
jurov	so far no idea how to convert that into anything saner, or ffi-interface that stuff	[08:26]
BingoBoingo	;;bc,stats	[08:40]
gribble	Current Blocks: 395946 \| Current Difficulty: 1.2003334065123697E11 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 397151 \| Next Difficulty In: 1205 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes, and 22 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None	[08:40]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70134 @ 0.00055512 = 38.9328 BTC [+] {2}	[11:08]
mircea_popescu	hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ?	[11:27]
mircea_popescu	ideally the result of a click should be a page including at least a) an enumerations of all the keys required to get there ; b) a script that will press to that particular height.	[11:28]
mircea_popescu	and thinking about it on the way from bed to machine, because this idea woke me up : it seems deedbot and the ml management really should be merged. any conceivable reason patches can't be submitted via deedbot's mechanism ? not necessarily to remove the email feeding, but as an add-on ?	[11:29]
punkman	making deeds with all the emails?	[11:42]
mircea_popescu	nah.	[11:43]
mircea_popescu	just, if you want to add a patch, should be able to dump it as dpaste also.	[11:43]
punkman	clearsigned patches get mangles line endings and things	[11:44]
punkman	*mangled	[11:44]
mircea_popescu	can has container.	[11:46]
mircea_popescu	http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-99/ << this guy is fucking epic lol. "go is gone. Yudkowsky sounds the alarm." and links a fb posting.	[11:49]
assbot	Outside in - Involvements with reality » Blog Archive » Chaos Patch (#99) ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPtcPz )	[11:49]
mircea_popescu	so, so perfect.	[11:49]
mircea_popescu	or to quote a purple prose producer of recent fame in my household, "Her silky smooth butt-crack was flawless, the only interruption along the length of it, was her pink, rosy butt-hole. Underneath her crack, were her fluffy, velvety beef curtains, just looking so, so scrumptious."	[11:50]
punkman	needs moar links	[11:50]
punkman	http://www.drroyspencer.com/2016/01/on-that-2015-record-warmest-claim/	[11:57]
assbot	On that 2015 Record Warmest Claim « Roy Spencer, PhD ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPu1YD )	[11:58]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390848 << http://trilema.com/2016/what-is-the-leyla-black/	[12:14]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 06:49:42; ben_vulpes: what is "the leyla black"?	[12:14]
assbot	What is the Leyla Black ? on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPwdza )	[12:14]
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asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390987 << mega-unsurprise	[12:19]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 14:48:21; mircea_popescu: http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-99/ << this guy is fucking epic lol. "go is gone. Yudkowsky sounds the alarm." and links a fb posting.	[12:19]
asciilifeform	!s lesswrong	[12:19]
assbot	34 results for 'lesswrong' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lesswrong	[12:19]
mircea_popescu	nono but the circumstances. he posted on fb ?	[12:19]
mircea_popescu	about the dangers of evil ai ?	[12:20]
asciilifeform	their cult has been 'evaporatively cooling' (y's own term!111) for ages.	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	so that what, the idiot fbheads can click the correct emotional response icon to help the evil ai segment them ?	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	ah-HA!	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	i knew gmaxwell wasn't intelligent enough to come up with that stupid shit on his own.	[12:20]
asciilifeform	and 'post on fb' to these benighted folk is same as voting in the obummer election, etc. - just 'something all civilized do' or whatnot.	[12:20]
mircea_popescu	so he scarfed it up from derpowksi ?	[12:20]
asciilifeform	http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beliefs << original piece on same	[12:21]
assbot	Evaporative Cooling of Group Beliefs - Less Wrong ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPwUZv )	[12:21]
mircea_popescu	pfff	[12:21]
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mircea_popescu	"I was looking at a Java applet which demonstrates the use of evaporative cooling to form a Bose-Einstein condensate, when it occurred to me that another force entirely might operate to increase fanaticism. "	[12:22]
mircea_popescu	ahaha what. it OCCURRED TO HIM ?	[12:22]
mircea_popescu	heavens to herpinstocks, the idea is older than the fucking persian empire.	[12:22]
*	assbot gives voice to asciilifeform	[12:23]
mircea_popescu	but the very grand intellectualistic value of someone who was watching einsten play out of his bose speakers in his spare time is well noted, of course.	[12:23]
mircea_popescu	how fortunate are we to have such bright minds around us. i gotta get myself one of them bose.	[12:23]
asciilifeform	wrong bose	[12:23]
mircea_popescu	you don't say.	[12:23]
asciilifeform	of all things in the piece, picking at the one that actually made sense ?	[12:24]
mircea_popescu	anyway, it occured to me while i was eating a niels bohr raisin cake (with little electron raisins floating in the batter) that this is how fucking spammers work, too. as discussed here a nujmber of times already.	[12:24]
asciilifeform	though i don't know why he had to go for the condensate, ordinary water behaves in quite the same way	[12:24]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it didn't make sense.	[12:24]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[12:25]
mircea_popescu	see ?	[12:25]
asciilifeform	now - yes.	[12:25]
mircea_popescu	pretentious fuckwad / out of his weight ignoramus for the fucking win over here.	[12:25]
mircea_popescu	THIS is the product of wikipedia. THIS AND ONLY THIS.	[12:25]
asciilifeform	y suffered from delusions of physics - he was 'raised for physics' by his father, but didn't make the cut, and never lived it down	[12:25]
mircea_popescu	it doesn't "bring science". it empowers ambitious knownothing.	[12:25]
asciilifeform	ended up even writing 'guide to qm' for his cultists	[12:25]
mircea_popescu	and it occurred to me while conducting fart ciclotron reactions in my spare time that there's nothing more dangerous than an idiot with a little knowledge	[12:26]
mircea_popescu	than an ambitious idiot with a little knowledge.	[12:26]
mircea_popescu	and this is what wikipedia does. nothing else.	[12:26]
mircea_popescu	worst fucking idea in the history of ideas, if they just let jimbo fuck children until he fell over the world'd have been better off.	[12:26]
asciilifeform	the hilarious part is that y had a piece on ~this~ also	[12:27]
asciilifeform	y'know, sorta like sc4mz0rz, card sharps, understand fraud better than honest folk	[12:27]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[12:28]
asciilifeform	http://lesswrong.com/lw/p0/to_spread_science_keep_it_secret << one of these pieces by y	[12:28]
assbot	To Spread Science, Keep It Secret - Less Wrong ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tv2X8d )	[12:28]
mircea_popescu	he's 2nd generation scum, aims to systemd the original scum.	[12:28]
mircea_popescu	this is in fact how it works : we, aim to V the original lispworld. scum - aims to systemd wikipedia.	[12:29]
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asciilifeform	the mega-question is why thiel is paying him to do this 24/7	[12:29]
mircea_popescu	java fucking appled NEVER DEMONSTRATED ANYTHING OMFG FUCK YOUR DUMB MOTHER WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S BROOMSTICK	[12:29]
asciilifeform	(and enough to support a harem, if rumour is to be believed)	[12:29]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform because thiel got money and no self respect.	[12:29]
asciilifeform	this is an explanation ?	[12:30]
mircea_popescu	i mean that quite profoundly - thiel has seen the narrow horizon of the pen and contented himself that "this is everywhere".	[12:30]
mircea_popescu	this is what having no self respect fundamentally means.	[12:30]
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asciilifeform	why not put the money in a pyre and light it?	[12:30]
asciilifeform	would do loads more good than feeding yudkowsky	[12:30]
mircea_popescu	"good".	[12:30]
mircea_popescu	there can not be any good.	[12:30]
asciilifeform	good in the sense of refraining from creating monster	[12:31]
mircea_popescu	o check it out, bose-einstein bombmaking!	[12:31]
mircea_popescu	this is really good cracked.com article	[12:31]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390849 << prolly should tell the man.	[12:32]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 06:54:12; ben_vulpes: http://www.northofreality.com/secrets/ << bit of a shame that aramcheck's not in the wot and on patreon, i like his weirdfic.	[12:32]
*	asciilifeform remembers writing to yudkowsky in the late '90s, when both were harmless and penniless crackpots	[12:32]
asciilifeform	didja know he was thrown out of school ?	[12:33]
mircea_popescu	for ?	[12:33]
asciilifeform	psych breakdown	[12:33]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390862 << pretty much exactly that. as per https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Branching-Rebasing	[12:33]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:11:56; punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390334 what does rebase mean here? it's a term of art in version control	[12:33]
assbot	Git - Rebasing ... ( http://bit.ly/1KPyj24 )	[12:33]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i didn't know they expel ru kids for that	[12:34]
asciilifeform	he	[12:34]
asciilifeform	yudkowsky is an american	[12:34]
mircea_popescu	oh.	[12:34]
asciilifeform	fella has interesting bio, he's an escapee from, iirc, hassidic jews	[12:35]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390867 << no, i mean moving all stuff downsteream to depend on a' rather than a. this is rebasing the stuff downstream : from a base in a to a base in a'.	[12:35]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:13:19; ben_vulpes: punkman: by my read 'rebase' as mircea_popescu uses it means 'dump into the v tree'	[12:35]
mircea_popescu	american or actual hasids ?	[12:35]
asciilifeform	afaik - actual, but living in usa	[12:36]
mircea_popescu	there is no such thing.	[12:36]
asciilifeform	then i have nfi, i simply do not know enough about subj	[12:36]
mircea_popescu	and for the record : ACTUAL hasidic jews, as found strictly beyond the pale, were some of the more pleasant folk you coulde ever meet, and greatly informs my tolerance of jews, as well as the tolerance of everyone who's not born past the stupid women line in western europe.	[12:37]
asciilifeform	presumably his father being a physicist of some kind, in the secular world, would suggest 'damaged' hassid	[12:37]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile the american hasids are a sort of jehova's witnesses in a slightly altered color scheme	[12:37]
mircea_popescu	((the stupid women line in western europe is sometimes called the Hajnal line)	[12:38]
*	asciilifeform never saw this before, but it makes mega-sense	[12:39]
asciilifeform	the orc-human border !	[12:39]
mircea_popescu	mno.	[12:40]
mircea_popescu	there's absolutely nothing human about the sandvaginated saltmarshes.	[12:40]
asciilifeform	term of art	[12:40]
mircea_popescu	not in my art.	[12:40]
asciilifeform	from pelevin's yarn, where the precisely 'sandvaginated' folk living in antigravity sphere called themselves 'human' and, derisively, the still healthy folk below on the ground, 'orcs'	[12:41]
mircea_popescu	i follow the palaiologos tradition. whereby the orcs are a slightly more complex thing.	[12:42]
mircea_popescu	by and large, "people who do not feel comfortable living inside the wall".	[12:42]
mircea_popescu	or, "people with no indoor voice".	[12:42]
asciilifeform	^ this also.	[12:42]
mircea_popescu	or, "people whose main impulse when confronted with an excuisite jeweled item is to rip out the jewels"	[12:43]
mircea_popescu	etc.	[12:43]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98235 @ 0.00055449 = 54.4703 BTC [-] {2}	[12:44]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390980 << i remember asking for this some time last year	[12:45]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 14:27:50; mircea_popescu: and thinking about it on the way from bed to machine, because this idea woke me up : it seems deedbot and the ml management really should be merged. any conceivable reason patches can't be submitted via deedbot's mechanism ? not necessarily to remove the email feeding, but as an add-on ?	[12:45]
asciilifeform	but the things-to-be-done are many, and the hands - few	[12:45]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform aha quite possibly. you keep trying to bite corcoduse.	[12:45]
mircea_popescu	do you know what corcoduse are ?	[12:45]
asciilifeform	something like a quince ?	[12:46]
mircea_popescu	nah, they're the fruits of a plum-like wild plum tree, grows everywhere the hasids go	[12:47]
mircea_popescu	pretty sure it was in odessa too. kids tend to eat them - sour stuff, makes them sick.	[12:48]
mircea_popescu	and re saltmarshes, the cannonical line being of course "Die Schweden die haben verflucht schlechtes Geld, wer weiß ob der Oestreicher besseres hält."	[12:49]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform do you know 'em ?	[12:50]
asciilifeform	the fruit? only from grandfather's botanical book	[12:51]
asciilifeform	but i get the idea	[12:51]
mircea_popescu	aha. well the idea is - eaten too soon! :D	[12:51]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390865 << i actually never saw this. wtf is this ?	[12:51]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:12:20; ben_vulpes: "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"?	[12:51]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45500 @ 0.00055671 = 25.3303 BTC [+] {2}	[12:51]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390875 << i'd be surprised if you actually can ever find this.	[12:53]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:14:35; *: ben_vulpes goes digging through the gui for "never ever fucking toss my scrollback option"	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	the item figures prominently in my own mental list of nonsense ; that list is an essential part of why alf's raging against computing makes sense to me.	[12:53]
mircea_popescu	"seriously, you can't repeat what you said to me ? slaves get caned for this!" "but but but mp, it is a computer, it can't save an infinity of stuff" "WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU MAKING A MACHINE SAY INFINITY OF STUFF TO ME" "well it's not really infinite, just..." "bring the cane"	[12:54]
asciilifeform	^	[12:55]
asciilifeform	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 << see points 2, 3, 5.	[12:55]
assbot	Loper OS » Seven Laws of Sane Personal Computing ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tv5aAr )	[12:55]
mircea_popescu	fundamental problem in the design of systems, too.	[12:55]
mircea_popescu	which understanding is why i'm so lisp friendly, actually.	[12:56]
mircea_popescu	the derps making osen treat the scrollback as a wholly separate, contextual-less buffer. it's not "what we just said to this guy"	[12:56]
mircea_popescu	and similarly no program replay and for the same reason etc.	[12:56]
mircea_popescu	a large stack of various items all designed to talk into the void. how is this a computer ?	[12:56]
mircea_popescu	it's just a bile of bullhorns.	[12:56]
mircea_popescu	computing gets to grow a fucking indoor voice and progress out of orcdom.	[12:57]
asciilifeform	pile of jewls jewl-rippers tore from their mounts, as was their impulse.	[12:57]
mircea_popescu	s/bile/pile/ s/gets/gots/	[12:57]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390901 << i think this is by now well agreed upon :)	[13:02]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:27:47; punkman: why I kept saying that I don't like release patches that touch everything	[13:02]
asciilifeform	it is actually quite feasible to have a patch that 'touches everything' but is visually inspectable in three minutes - e.g., mod6's proposed 'release patch' that merely tacks a comment to the top of every file.	[13:03]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390907 << a) variety of implementation is considered good for security ; b) community of usage should be user driven not developer driven (or GOD FORBID) design mandated.	[13:04]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:35:23; ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?	[13:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the difference lies in the meaning of "touch"	[13:04]
asciilifeform	aha	[13:05]
asciilifeform	as for the multitude of vtrons, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but i am seeing folks suffer from easily-curable issues that were not present in my original prototype (which, recall, had NO state other than patch/seal/keys working set, and did not use the net, and had the 'origin' command, etc.)	[13:06]
asciilifeform	on the other hand i didn't have the graph, or sane parallel leaf handling.	[13:06]
mircea_popescu	check it out, we recreated history!	[13:06]
asciilifeform	'let thousand flowers bloom'	[13:07]
mircea_popescu	ontogenesis follows filogenesis!	[13:07]
*	asciilifeform once wrote 'oncogenesis follows philogenesis', but prof did not notice, did not collapse laughing	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	lol	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	the thing with being a teacher is that it trains you to neglect so much lols.	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	you can't sit there all day laughing your ass off at the endless parade of idjits	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	you'd form a bose-lolstein condensated milk curd or something.	[13:08]
asciilifeform	see also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=23-01-2016#1382703	[13:09]
assbot	Logged on 23-01-2016 14:46:32; asciilifeform: 'who has been in the army, does not laugh in the circus' (tm) (r) (su)	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	he who has been a teacher will not be amused at the zoo.	[13:09]
asciilifeform	quite.	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	im telling you - cunts run on perl	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	the stuff women spawn into this world is simply out of this world in its broken, surprisingly counterfunctional variety	[13:10]
mircea_popescu	"crooked timber" puts it too lightly by about two biological regnums.	[13:11]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390908 << mno. the idea is that "code usable by other people" is nonsense. instead - write code well, that SHOULD be usable, and if it isn't usable the people can be fixed.	[13:17]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 07:36:07; ben_vulpes: this is probably a purposes and causes thing, huh. avoid working towards the purpose of usable software for other people, and proceed from the cause of "hell is other people's code"...	[13:17]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390931 <<< how would this work, i don't follow ? you plan to host a farm of various arches etc, and run automated build and test scripts on it with each release ? patch ?	[13:19]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 08:05:44; punkman: I'd help rig it up if the foundation so wishes	[13:19]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390950 << more complicated than that. all in good time, except the boys keep getting excited and outrunning the horses!	[13:22]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 09:26:17; diana_coman: thanks ben_vulpes , I'll have a look; it's been ages since I last wrote anything in Scheme as such, but if there's a chance of moving the client away from cpp it's certainly worth having a look at	[13:22]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390962 << it is ; it also pulls a ton of miserable dependencies (graphics!)	[13:23]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 11:07:31; jurov: ben_vulpes: eulora code is several levels more crooked than satoshi's, i tried to ffi python and left that for later in disgust.	[13:23]
mircea_popescu	"The ?little guy? now possesses a large amount of anger about the political system that doesn't work for him, which shouldn?t be surprising since he repeatedly voted against his own interests during the republican tenure. " <<< aaaahahahaha.	[13:24]
mircea_popescu	check it out - socialists agree it's the victim's fault!	[13:24]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21782 @ 0.00055672 = 12.1265 BTC [+]	[13:25]
mircea_popescu	https://topynate.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/note-on-the-block-size-limit/ << not terrible.	[13:27]
assbot	Note on the block size limit \| Particulars ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTYex2 )	[13:27]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: for some reason none of the 'not terrible' folk express the thing in correct terms, which is that tx is a ~cost~ to other people who run nodes	[13:42]
asciilifeform	the node capacity is just presumed, somehow, to drop from the sky, like 'obamaphone'	[13:42]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[13:42]
mircea_popescu	i don't think many people actually understand how bitcoin works.	[13:43]
asciilifeform	bbbut this is basic	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	the obvious parts especially	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	because the thing is so complicated it encourages people to approach it through narratives rather than observation	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	and the problem with narratives is the same problem train tracks have : 20 miles away from the track is much further than 200 miles DOWN the track	[13:44]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1389935 << see thread	[13:44]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 16:29:32; mircea_popescu: it's fucking ridiculous. the current cost of 14.7kb is something like	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	i know, that's why i put that sort of stuff in. help the thinking hats.	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	anyway, it's miserable design while at it. seriously, X pays Y for his imposition upon Z ?	[13:45]
asciilifeform	and if we calculate the ~long-term~ cost for me of storing 14kB, not only the disk, but the mains current, migrating from disk to disk, parity checks nightly, etc. - this is a pretty penny	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	but this was also discussed variously and from multiple angles.	[13:45]
asciilifeform	esp. since i gotta keep storing it for so long as i care to have any dealing with bitcoin	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform technically, you don't get to factor back-ups, because the chain itself is its best backup.	[13:46]
asciilifeform	a backup that is not under my control is not a backup at all.	[13:46]
asciilifeform	can call it something else, it is useful, aha, but NOT backup.	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	right but you see what i mean.	[13:46]
asciilifeform	miserable design, like carnot engine is miserable, but it is quite unclear that a less-miserable alternative physically is possible	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	no argument.	[13:47]
asciilifeform	but yes, it fundamentally it violates the principle i stated here as 'nobody gets anything just for showing up, or the flies eat the meat' (see the bastard blocks thread, and the single-packet authentication as elixir against ddos threads)	[13:47]
asciilifeform	which is why i predict that bitcoin is condemned to migrate behind the very tall fortress walls of something like gossipd	[13:48]
asciilifeform	where indeed nobody gets value for showing up and being a fly	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	research went into this in the deep, dank cellars of my dirigible. there's a lot of the original rock involved. it may even not be wrong design, horror of horrors.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	anyway. this is a poorly understood point as of yet at all levels - the clergy and the populace.	[13:49]
asciilifeform	which?	[13:49]
asciilifeform	(which it)	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	the whole node conundrum	[13:49]
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asciilifeform	it is a working design IF placed behind walls.	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	understand something re that principle of yours : money is fundamentally a community function.	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	there is no objective money.	[13:49]
asciilifeform	if exposed to flies - quite wrong.	[13:49]
*	assbot gives voice to deedbot-	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	aha.	[13:50]
asciilifeform	right now there are simply insufficient flies, and their proboscis - insufficiently sharp and long, to make this point properly felt.	[13:50]
mircea_popescu	this is also true.	[13:50]
mircea_popescu	but the point does stand, that gold on mars is not gold but just a metal.	[13:51]
asciilifeform	money is a community thing, aha. but recall that in ancient times peasants lived and died for generations without, in many cases, ever touching money	[13:51]
mircea_popescu	surely.	[13:51]
asciilifeform	just like today most folks die without touching electron microscope.	[13:51]
asciilifeform	and what's the 'original rock' ?	[13:53]
mircea_popescu	in reference to which : http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-assets-m/#selection-107.0-107.200	[13:54]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets +m on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NJywUs )	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform original rock in construction is when you encounter stuff that's baseline and can't be dug into. in v-programming, when you've dug your way all the way to the genesis.	[13:55]
asciilifeform	^ the highlighty thing never worked on any browser i could find, ftr	[13:55]
asciilifeform	ah	[13:55]
mircea_popescu	o.O ?	[13:55]
asciilifeform	aha, i don't firefox	[13:55]
asciilifeform	possibly works there ?	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	takes me straight to "The #bitcoin-assets aristocracy is not incompetent. Whether in anyone's estimation others not named are just as or even more competent is immaterial : arbitrariety is not the problem, incompetence is."	[13:56]
asciilifeform	ah	[13:57]
asciilifeform	also reminds me of the 'buluceala' article	[13:57]
asciilifeform	!s buluceala	[13:57]
assbot	2 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala	[13:57]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-01-2016#1359085 << thread	[13:58]
assbot	Logged on 02-01-2016 16:39:19; ascii_rear: http://trilema.com/2014/pushing-the-soft-tender-flesh-of-a-friend-against-the-sharp-rotating-blades-of-the-immutable-machine	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	weird, works in pretty much all of 'em ;/	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform anyway, re the community thing.	[13:58]
asciilifeform	'So, are you whiter than him or darker than him ? If whiter, you go before him, if darker after him. Problem of "who goes first" solved, and inasmuch as it's an irrelevant problem anyway, it doesn't matter how it's solved just as long as it's solved. The Arabs implement this exact solution, which is why I never saw buluceala in their very popular mosques. The Romanians do not implement it, or anything else, and as such bulucea	[13:58]
asciilifeform	la is their way of life and they wonder why nothing can ever get done because all available time and any available resources get wasted in an effort to sort a group. (The Italians are the exact same way, by the way, and from what I hear the Greeks idem.)' << from mircea_popescutron	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	community doesn't mean "everyone". nor does it mean "people you'd expect". a guy's harem is not composed of all the women that exist, or all the women he ran into. nvertheless, it works just fine.	[13:58]
asciilifeform	there is this notion, probably rooted in very fundamental christian 'inner light' poison, that the excluding group has the burden of explaining to rando derp who asks 'but why not me!?'	[14:00]
mircea_popescu	no such thing.	[14:00]
mircea_popescu	woman that wants to know why she's not in the harem needs only ask herself.	[14:01]
asciilifeform	not in ~a~ harem	[14:06]
asciilifeform	but there is not necessarily a reason why she is not in ~the particular~ harem, and it is not the duty of that harem keeper to provide a logical 'reason'	[14:06]
mircea_popescu	well i said the not a. woman who wants to know why she isn't in any particular one ~need only ask herself~.	[14:07]
asciilifeform	then yes	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	"what did i do to be in ?" "how did it fail ?" "how did i fix it ?" "how did it fail still ?" "how did i fix that ?"	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	either she keeps going, in which case she's not in the harem yet, or else gives up, in which case there's the answer.	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	"oh but what of equality!" "the only thing equal to all its downstream is 0".	[14:09]
mircea_popescu	which is kinda why both nullities are so fascinated with theoretical socialism and why practical implementations of socialism amount to such resplendent nothing.	[14:10]
asciilifeform	;;later tell mod6 https://7chan.org/pr/src/The_Little_Schemer_4th_2.pdf << a real joy of a b00k, i taught a gurl scheme once from it	[14:20]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[14:20]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1NJBY1p )	[14:21]
asciilifeform	^ l333337 w4r3z!11111	[14:21]
asciilifeform	socratic method.	[14:21]
asciilifeform	there is a sequel, just as riotously fun, 'the seasoned schemer.'	[14:22]
asciilifeform	you start out like a child, end up getting through lambda calculus, combinators	[14:24]
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mod6	time to answer some questions	[14:47]
asciilifeform	?	[14:47]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95250 @ 0.00055295 = 52.6685 BTC [-] {6}	[14:53]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings << where do you see this? this is not a thing. that would fail to compile/pass-interpreter-smell-test.	[14:54]
phf	mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ? << like http://104.131.72.249/patches/? (is in no way bulletproof, so i expect it to be down by the time i come back from breakfast)	[14:54]
assbot	trb ... ( http://bit.ly/1WV9qcg )	[14:54]
trinque	mod6: http://deedbot.org/build-bitcoind-V99996.sh	[15:01]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1WVa21v )	[15:01]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"? << i've just run this again myselfand logged output here: http://dpaste.com/0P2QXYG.txt I'm not sure how what you saw happened there. :/	[15:04]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1WValcG )	[15:04]
trinque	mod6: ah yep, I saw that doing the makefiles	[15:05]
trinque	the signed file is actually a signed textfile of the hash of the thing	[15:05]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> unrelatedly, while we're ripping the rug out from under mod6, is there a good reason to continue with the inconsistent directory structure of `./.seals' and `./patches'? << this was in alf's original POC. i think it can stay. especially because you can name the dirs whatever you wish.	[15:06]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 i got v.pl into a weird place where it didn't clean up its gnupg tempdir. perhaps consider using an "exit_gracefully" function where you're currently simply "die"-ing. << this basically /shouldn't/ happen. i'll follow your steps here and try to see what went wrong.	[15:07]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 stick a random file with .html suffix in the patches dir to reproduce the stale gnupg dir big << this is what I'll test with.	[15:07]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 i believe i have a bug for you: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/8d9ad794-4b47-407e-9db4-a9a8cb2c70b4/ << lol, what did you do to this poor thing!	[15:08]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/20fwNTi )	[15:08]
mod6	<+asciilifeform> ;;later tell mod6 https://7chan.org/pr/src/The_Little_Schemer_4th_2.pdf << a real joy of a b00k, i taught a gurl scheme once from it << hey thanks!	[15:09]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1NJBY1p )	[15:09]
trinque	nice, I taught a girl with that one too, then graduated her to SICP	[15:10]
asciilifeform	soo i have a result	[15:10]
asciilifeform	but also a dilemma	[15:10]
asciilifeform	mod6 et al:	[15:11]
mod6	<+trinque> mod6: ah yep, I saw that doing the makefiles << umm.. thats bad. because that means it doens't happen to me, but apparently it happens "in the field" from time to time?	[15:11]
asciilifeform	i fixed the very subtle version number setting bug	[15:11]
asciilifeform	but i do not know how to issue the patch	[15:11]
asciilifeform	it can be one of two kinds:	[15:11]
asciilifeform	1) works with shiva-less main trunk	[15:11]
asciilifeform	2) applied to shiva branch.	[15:11]
asciilifeform	3) can issue both.	[15:11]
asciilifeform	4) can let somebody else do it	[15:12]
asciilifeform	what'll it be	[15:12]
asciilifeform	?	[15:12]
mod6	1	[15:12]
mod6	or 3	[15:12]
asciilifeform	ok gimme 10min or so then.	[15:12]
mod6	something in shiva breaks it up eh?	[15:12]
asciilifeform	not exactly	[15:12]
asciilifeform	just that it touches same files.	[15:12]
mod6	ok no rush here.	[15:13]
mod6	take your time.	[15:13]
mod6	trinque: thanks for deedbotting	[15:13]
mod6	looks good. matches mine exactly.	[15:14]
mod6	danielpbarron: hey there Sir, wanna update the wiki & test the steps from a newb standpoint when you get a moment? Y^	[15:15]
mod6	s/Y//	[15:15]
mod6	ben_vulpes: thanks for testing V. i appreciate that.	[15:15]
mod6	testing really helps at any time, but especially ~before~ we bundle up and release	[15:16]
mod6	so if you see activity in that direction, ask for a test bundle or test code, whatever. good to catch any things like this before I send itout.	[15:17]
mod6	furthermore ...	[15:18]
mod6	<+mod6> <+ben_vulpes> "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"? << i've just run this again myselfand logged output here: http://dpaste.com/0P2QXYG.txt I'm not sure how what you saw happened there. :/ << im wondering if this could be related to a GPG version thing or something? because the line of code that is executed here is this:	[15:19]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1WValcG )	[15:19]
mod6	gpg --verify buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign	[15:19]
asciilifeform	mod6: is malleus in the trunk ?	[15:22]
asciilifeform	i need to know what set to make	[15:22]
asciilifeform	in order to issue the verstring fix	[15:22]
mod6	yeah, : http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/patches	[15:23]
assbot	Index of /v/patches ... ( http://bit.ly/1RU4eWQ )	[15:23]
asciilifeform	ok	[15:23]
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*	copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[15:32]
asciilifeform	FOR FUCK'S SAKE	[15:32]
asciilifeform	turdatron ate my patch AGAIN	[15:32]
asciilifeform	BURNNN	[15:32]
asciilifeform	jurov ???	[15:33]
mod6	did you see my comments from yesterday about your re-bake?	[15:34]
asciilifeform	which ?	[15:34]
mod6	ben_vulpes: ok, yeah, you through something into patches that it didn't die gracefully on: http://dpaste.com/1GJP2X4.txt	[15:34]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RU50mC )	[15:34]
mod6	this will have to be fixed for next time.	[15:35]
asciilifeform	http://www.loper-os.org/pub/turdatron_is_retarded_and_must_die.tar.gz << version string fix	[15:35]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RU52Lj )	[15:35]
mod6	and next time, let's do this sort of testing before i ship	[15:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38000 @ 0.0005514 = 20.9532 BTC [-] {2}	[15:35]
asciilifeform	my patience with turdatron is at an end.	[15:36]
asciilifeform	at this point i don't give a FUCK why it failed.	[15:36]
phf	asciilifeform: so that new version replaces old patch?	[15:36]
asciilifeform	no.	[15:36]
phf	addition?	[15:36]
asciilifeform	it is a patch to mod6's press head.	[15:36]
asciilifeform	as requested.	[15:36]
mircea_popescu	phf pretty much yeah.	[15:37]
asciilifeform	i will no longer use the ml to submit patches.	[15:37]
asciilifeform	it is infuriatingly broken.	[15:37]
phf	asciilifeform: dropped your patch into the graph thingy, http://104.131.72.249/patches/ is doing right thing	[15:37]
assbot	trb ... ( http://bit.ly/1WV9qcg )	[15:37]
asciilifeform	BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT	[15:38]
asciilifeform	and turdatron is a turd	[15:38]
mod6	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390252	[15:38]
assbot	Logged on 30-01-2016 22:21:25; mod6: and speaking of which, i'd also like to note that all of the sigs (seals) in http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html are misnamed. http://dpaste.com/1KRXSBM.txt	[15:38]
asciilifeform	mod6: what prevents you from renaming them ?	[15:38]
asciilifeform	it won't alter the hash	[15:38]
mod6	nothing, i did this.	[15:38]
phf	mircea_popescu: nodes are clickable	[15:38]
asciilifeform	ty mod6	[15:38]
mircea_popescu	or 3 << asciilifeform 3	[15:38]
mod6	thats how i tested and built the stuff yesterday at phf's behest.	[15:38]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: which 3	[15:38]
mircea_popescu	"which'll it be"	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	"three"	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	think of it as a poem.	[15:39]
asciilifeform	l0l	[15:39]
phf	i.e. http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix	[15:39]
assbot	asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVdJ7n )	[15:39]
asciilifeform	phf: very, very spiffy	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	phf very nice and good.	[15:40]
mod6	asciilifeform: what was interesting on these ones is that not only idn't they contain .vpatch.asciilifeform.sig -- they were: .vpatch.asc	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	by now alf no longer really wants the book	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	because what he really wanted was ths svg (not the PDF!!!) of a book	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	well really the ast, but whatevs.	[15:40]
asciilifeform	l0lz wake up up when i can see the actual src in this thing	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	trivial bolt-on.	[15:40]
asciilifeform	but really wake me up when it knows how to eat patchballs from www or ftp etc	[15:40]
asciilifeform	because turdatron delenda est.	[15:40]
mircea_popescu	which leads me to the following : it's not JUST patches that should be "thematically grouped".	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	the whole fucking program is supposed to be written as a tree not as a fucking scroll	[15:41]
asciilifeform	i am SICK AND MOTHERFUCKING TIRED of 'your line is 1 char too long fuckyou'	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	which is what "functions" as originally hacked into fortran/basic were supposed to do	[15:41]
asciilifeform	aha^	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	excepot from a braindamaged locus of "who could need more than one node level"	[15:41]
asciilifeform	dijkstra, 'structured programming'	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	aha	[15:41]
mircea_popescu	i had the silent intuition that there'd be a second gate in between the code and the "war of comments" outer gate discussed in thr logs last week. there is! this!	[15:42]
mircea_popescu	proper fucking structure.	[15:43]
mircea_popescu	truth is defended in this order by a) structure and b) text&context.	[15:43]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391302 <<< dawg simmer down, it's not like jurov wrote it with the express purpose of aggravating you.	[15:46]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 18:31:17; asciilifeform: BURNNN	[15:46]
asciilifeform	incidenally,	[15:47]
asciilifeform	mod6 et al: seems like my verstring patch works with ALL branches	[15:47]
asciilifeform	(shiva and ordinary)	[15:47]
asciilifeform	so the readme is a lie.	[15:47]
mircea_popescu	hm	[15:47]
asciilifeform	(verstring ~fix~ that is)	[15:47]
mircea_popescu	wouldn't it be best to test before documenting a feature ? :D	[15:47]
asciilifeform	no conflict.	[15:47]
asciilifeform	http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix << as illustrated by phf	[15:48]
assbot	asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVdJ7n )	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	phf can you also add the text on a futher link ? [code] ?	[15:48]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: jurov is not to blame, the original design tip was actually mine	[15:48]
asciilifeform	but turdatron is not usable.	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	well as the great robbie williams one said, "at least now we know"	[15:49]
asciilifeform	it refused my latest patch with no logical reason i can discern	[15:49]
mod6	hey uh...	[15:49]
mod6	ok unpacked ur tarball. verified the sigs.	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	anyway, irc bot based submission is much better because bot can provide error response	[15:49]
asciilifeform	^	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	trinque and ftr that error message should be "fuck you alf" by default.	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	every time it runs into something it doesn't know what to say about	[15:50]
asciilifeform	l0ltr0n	[15:50]
mod6	this patch just comes after the original	[15:50]
mod6	--- a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f	[15:50]
mod6	+++ b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h ef93153b01fdf024a0ab2ce0f992ea9af50d3423baa147c395bba4cc90575bda0d832c0313428bbbc837c99d549c4ba787b94fad5b871870397a410ba59ea0e9	[15:50]
mod6	--- a/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 02ccc72e42939509fc180861db7ffec50563a84869f35671fcf720090f9782674edcc89c4174175691566fac7277f1ebe0f50253d1e4a995eb960f5b43cce2a3	[15:50]
mod6	+++ b/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 0ccb0c29c0a3217d57f9bc72d87b497e64116a9f79e69277408750ee3dc95738ce52a70afece7a1054314100d84f93f6525ab514b8abd8ce78ab8ebd50e599a2	[15:50]
asciilifeform	mod6: does this break something ?	[15:51]
mod6	--- a/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 02ccc72e42939509fc180861db7ffec50563a84869f35671fcf720090f9782674edcc89c4174175691566fac7277f1ebe0f50253d1e4a995eb960f5b43cce2a3	[15:51]
mod6	+++ b/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 0ccb0c29c0a3217d57f9bc72d87b497e64116a9f79e69277408750ee3dc95738ce52a70afece7a1054314100d84f93f6525ab514b8abd8ce78ab8ebd50e599a2	[15:51]
mod6	http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/patches/asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch	[15:51]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ZPCLdg )	[15:51]
mod6	damnit	[15:51]
mircea_popescu	http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix << really should include a "touched signatures : " list	[15:51]
asciilifeform	it sits down happily in my tree	[15:51]
assbot	asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring-fix ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVdJ7n )	[15:51]
mod6	ignore those last two, this from serialize.h	[15:52]
mod6	diff -uNr a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h	[15:52]
mod6	--- a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h bc602bfbc512259fbb6c01f2c1633ff142966bf0752612e9a488cee8a95da7921b98abe646e2f7002243f1981939372e0b53948646398e40525ed442c377f449	[15:52]
mod6	+++ b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f	[15:52]
mod6	your patch should have antecedent: bc602bfbc512259fbb6c01f2c1633ff142966bf0752612e9a488cee8a95da7921b98abe646e2f7002243f1981939372e0b53948646398e40525ed442c377f449	[15:52]
phf	mircea_popescu: touched signatures?	[15:52]
mod6	not 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f	[15:52]
deedbot-	[Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] What the rebooted DeLorean can learn from Singer, Pagani, and Bitcoin. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/01/31/what-the-rebooted-delorean-can-learn-from-singer-pagani-and-bitcoin/	[15:52]
mircea_popescu	phf yes, the list of all signatures seen to reach that leaf.	[15:52]
asciilifeform	mod6: from where comes this antecedent ?	[15:52]
mod6	ok, anyway.. lemme take a look at this.	[15:52]
mod6	so what i want to do	[15:53]
mircea_popescu	!rated phf	[15:53]
assbot	You rated user phf on 24-Jun-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: Fixed our boxen!.	[15:53]
punkman	mircea_popescu: phf yes, the list of all signatures seen to reach that leaf. << that would just return "asciilifeform" :P	[15:53]
mircea_popescu	punkman no because it has genesis in there.	[15:53]
mod6	start without this patch : asciilifeform_malleus_mikehearnificarum.vpatchasciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch, or th mod6_der_high_low_s.vpatch	[15:54]
mircea_popescu	~all~ signatures seen to reach that leaf.	[15:54]
asciilifeform	aha, buncha people signed genesis	[15:54]
asciilifeform	ideally, everybody	[15:54]
asciilifeform	(in the orchestra, that is)	[15:54]
mod6	then recode all this stuff.	[15:54]
mod6	just imagine that they don't exist, now we need to reimplement those changes.	[15:54]
asciilifeform	waiwut	[15:54]
mod6	should I do mine first? then you can make your changes.	[15:54]
asciilifeform	mod6: i am utterly confused now ?	[15:55]
phf	oh oh people signatures, yes	[15:55]
mod6	i wanted a whole replacement for asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch, not just the fix.	[15:55]
mircea_popescu	phf actually asciilifeform has a point : two signature lists are needed. complete and dependent. C = all signatures seen on any of the packages pressed ; D = the set of all signatures on which the current press depends - ie, without them you can't reach that leaf.	[15:55]
mircea_popescu	lemme formalize this.	[15:55]
asciilifeform	replacement?! whyt?!!!	[15:55]
mod6	i'll fix all of this stuff.	[15:55]
mod6	i'll be afk for a bit.	[15:55]
mircea_popescu	A signed by a b c d ; B off A, signed by a, c, d. D off A, signed by a, d. C off D signed by d.	[15:56]
asciilifeform	mod6: if you want to backport the patch and the afterpatch, etc. i will read and sign the result.	[15:56]
asciilifeform	but imho this is unnecessary sweat.	[15:56]
mircea_popescu	the first list for C is a b c d whereas the 2nd list for C is D.	[15:56]
asciilifeform	whole point of v is to avoid having to pretend that symphony was farted out in one perfect go.	[15:56]
asciilifeform	we can live with the history !	[15:56]
asciilifeform	manually re-grinding everything every fucking time somebody finds a bug, is scutwork, and the time could be used to do something useful.	[15:57]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile the first list for B is a b c d whereas the 2nd list for B is (a) ; (c) ; (d) ie 3 lists.	[15:57]
asciilifeform	this is my official take on the question, which obviously nobody has to listen to.	[15:57]
asciilifeform	but there it is.	[15:57]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i'd say it's a degree question. if a hole found close to the surface, supuration is advised. if not, let blood carry the germs out. just like the body treats infection.	[15:58]
mircea_popescu	sure, people may maintain sparkly-clean trees for whatever reason anyway. but in general as to the "main" tree, best avoid both horns of the dilemma and tryt and sit in the middle.	[15:59]
asciilifeform	anyway if somebody insists on tamping versionstring and versionstring-fix into one path, i will read and sign it.	[15:59]
asciilifeform	later.	[15:59]
asciilifeform	but right now i'ma go to meatspace and won't be back until nightfall.	[15:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58050 @ 0.00055672 = 32.3176 BTC [+]	[15:59]
mircea_popescu	enjoe.	[16:00]
mircea_popescu	phf does this make any sense whatsoever ?	[16:00]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391311 << word eh.	[16:02]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 18:34:13; mod6: and next time, let's do this sort of testing before i ship	[16:02]
phf	mircea_popescu: is that a list of names that correspond to .wot? i.e. each patch has (asciilifeform, mod6, etc.) and then there's a set of all wots for current press?	[16:02]
mircea_popescu	basically i seek to answer two questions, from a management point of view.	[16:03]
mircea_popescu	question 1 is : who are all the people who contributed to this ?	[16:03]
mircea_popescu	question 2 is : who are all the people on whose word i am implicitly depending by building this ?	[16:03]
mircea_popescu	so by building B in the example i am in the situation where i know a and c and d must ALL lie.	[16:04]
mircea_popescu	whereas by building D i am in the situation where i know it's enough for d to lie.	[16:04]
*	justanotheruser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[16:04]
*	justanotheruser (~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:05]
mircea_popescu	(this approach probably makes the ancient "group is the enemy of intelligent life" / "only threat to wot model is agreement" etc painfully obvious - if a, c and d are a compact i'll just note them epsilon and pretend it's one thing)	[16:05]
phf	ah that gives you ability to press purely from wot knowledge, without reading the patch	[16:06]
mircea_popescu	quite.	[16:06]
mircea_popescu	must know who to thank and who to hunt down. that's what management is.	[16:07]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390963 << look into clasp then, i'd just started digging into it when asciilifeform released shiva	[16:09]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 11:10:04; jurov: that aside, there are completely different set of requirements, like, easy debugging. if lisp, then rather something with slime and good library bundled.	[16:09]
ben_vulpes	it nominally offers a lot over standard cl cffi, but i have not verified that myself.	[16:09]
mircea_popescu	it is also the fundamental instrument by which intelligent people are to assure their subsistence. because yea, naggum had a very good point with the http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165	[16:09]
assbot	Loper OS » The Wisdom of Erik Naggum ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQJGgA )	[16:09]
ben_vulpes	has the unexpected advantage of making alf barf	[16:09]
mircea_popescu	but the problem per se wasn't the end he approached, but the other end.	[16:09]
mircea_popescu	and if we fix the other end, we actually fix this problem.	[16:10]
mircea_popescu	and even without the economic consideration, from a purely intellectual perspective. what is this inhuman, anti-intellectual "the bitcoin developers" bs ? we're not living in the village of pythagora over here, and we don't expect "anonymity" to stand in for sovereignity like five years old. gimme the motherfucking list.	[16:11]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell pete_dushenski another translation challenger appears: http://trilema.com/2010/inca-o-pozitie-sexuala/	[16:12]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[16:12]
assbot	Inca o pozitie sexuala on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQKamU )	[16:12]
*	wangchun has quit (Quit: leaving)	[16:12]
*	wangchun (~wangchun@li414-193.members.linode.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:13]
asciilifeform	i came back to console because i realized that mircea_popescu was making a VITAL point that is in danger of being glossed over	[16:13]
asciilifeform	does anyone recall how my original vtron only showed linear flow ?	[16:13]
*	ben_vulpes nods	[16:13]
asciilifeform	and why i thought this to be sufficient ?	[16:13]
*	ben_vulpes does not nod	[16:14]
asciilifeform	it is because, in my original concept, the main knob that is to be twiddled by the operator is not the press head,	[16:14]
mircea_popescu	o wb alfie	[16:14]
asciilifeform	BUT THE WOT	[16:14]
asciilifeform	the wot!	[16:14]
asciilifeform	you vary the vot.	[16:14]
asciilifeform	wot	[16:14]
mircea_popescu	oh god, the wot!	[16:14]
ben_vulpes	wot wot	[16:14]
ben_vulpes	my wot, mon trezor!	[16:14]
mircea_popescu	who said "the iron! my god, the iron!"	[16:14]
asciilifeform	vtron, in primary mode of operation, is to climb the tree, as high as it can on each branch, operating using the current wotset	[16:14]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform still, this is the "orig" for that.	[16:15]
ben_vulpes	reheheally?	[16:15]
asciilifeform	this automagically gives you 'mod6 & ben_vulpes release', or 'what mircea_popescu is willing to use', or ' asciilifeform's bleeding razor'	[16:15]
ben_vulpes	because i want to press "shiva" into a tree that doesn't have, say, malleus_mikehearnificarum	[16:15]
asciilifeform	you just use different wotsets.	[16:15]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: that's when you bring out the press depth knob. OR alternatively sign the ones you want! and then press using a wot that contains only ben_vulpes	[16:15]
mircea_popescu	anyway, notice the fractal beauty of the world : list 1 is really "the wot" ; list 2 is necessarily the lordship list. and by its very nature ... you can or can not chose various different lordships depending on what it is you're trying to do.	[16:16]
asciilifeform	see, there are multiple ways to go about it	[16:16]
mircea_popescu	EXACTLY like how it worked back whne it worked.	[16:16]
asciilifeform	aha. mircea_popescu has it.	[16:16]
mircea_popescu	it's this sort of "doesn't repeat but rhymes" beauty that makes me thing we're really singing spheres music here.	[16:16]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: clasp is one of those 'lisps without eval' isnnit.	[16:18]
asciilifeform	there are good examples of this kind of thing, from the past, see 'chicken' and 'stalin'	[16:19]
asciilifeform	but it is pretty much the opposite of what we want here.	[16:19]
asciilifeform	http://community.schemewiki.org/?Stalin	[16:19]
assbot	Stalin	[16:19]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: i believe clasp is a standards-compliant commonlisp	[16:20]
ben_vulpes	if you have information to the contrary...	[16:20]
asciilifeform	claims to 'compile to cpp' doesn't it ?	[16:20]
ben_vulpes	nooo, llvm bytecode.	[16:21]
ben_vulpes	has 'really great cpp interop'	[16:21]
mircea_popescu	lol this is a promising thread.	[16:21]
*	ben_vulpes can hear the retching from here	[16:21]
phf	asciilifeform: original conception requires "sufficiently smart patch" then, unless i'm missing something	[16:22]
asciilifeform	phf: it does not. worked as shown.	[16:22]
asciilifeform	phf: see my original vtron.	[16:22]
phf	oh, if you remove joe from wot, v finds an alternative path	[16:23]
asciilifeform	aha	[16:24]
asciilifeform	the highest climb that has no joe.	[16:24]
asciilifeform	to specified level.	[16:24]
adlai	ben_vulpes: "standards-compliant" lol.	[16:25]
adlai	if "standards" is plural, it's already noncompliant	[16:25]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391028 << i wonder what 'not making the cut' looks like these days. not willing to burn ones youth on the pyre of tenure-track whoring?	[16:25]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 15:24:32; asciilifeform: y suffered from delusions of physics - he was 'raised for physics' by his father, but didn't make the cut, and never lived it down	[16:25]
asciilifeform	find clasp-master/src -name '*' \| xargs wc -l	[16:25]
asciilifeform	1169705	[16:25]
asciilifeform	go, read.	[16:25]
asciilifeform	happy shithuntin'.	[16:25]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: this is for a motherfucking crystalspace project	[16:26]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: mno. in yudkowsky's case, it meant being kicked out of high school.	[16:26]
ben_vulpes	adlai: i don't know shit, frere, i just drag in dead birds for the adults to dispose of.	[16:26]
mircea_popescu	if "standards" is plural, it's already noncompliant <<< for the record, the reason the enemy uses the plural there isn't that the enemy is this stupid, but that it believes in patchwork. ie, standards : one for this, one for that, together they make up a complete thing.	[16:26]
mircea_popescu	sort of freehand wot if you will	[16:26]
phf	clasp is very much anti-ba, there's no question about it, pulls a lot of projects together, of questionable pedigree	[16:26]
adlai	"anti-ba"!?	[16:27]
asciilifeform	including llvm	[16:27]
adlai	clasp is an answer to a specific problem which nobody here has... it's equally anti-pythagoras	[16:27]
asciilifeform	(the 'llvm is satanic and must die' thing is not as clear-cut as i would like, it is actually MORE readable and hackable than gcc. but i'm allergic, i confess.)	[16:27]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes you know what "not making the cut" is wqith a woman ? even if you're a saudi prince and your daddy buys her for you ; even if you're an afghan monkey and she deeply believes she has to. there's a point where you make the cut or don't, and that's what it is.	[16:27]
mircea_popescu	physics is a well known whore. behaves the exact same way.	[16:27]
mircea_popescu	do her insides answer to you or don't they.	[16:28]
asciilifeform	^^	[16:29]
adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391465 << afaik, clasp will be superior to other lisps only if the bulk of your friction is at the interface itself. specifically, it does NOT have the same level of slime support you'd find in the mature lisp (sbcl and ccl)	[16:29]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 19:07:51; ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390963 << look into clasp then, i'd just started digging into it when asciilifeform released shiva	[16:29]
asciilifeform	adlai: and here i picked a lisp with 0 slime support	[16:29]
adlai	"lisp"	[16:29]
phf	adlai: clasp is a good fit for tendriling trb, if i had more time, i'd use it in a similar way to shiva. but then i'm already building trb on llvm/clang, etc. it is anti-ba though because of pedigree and ownership problem. can use it, if you have resources to read through 5 or so 100k loc projects	[16:30]
ben_vulpes	FIGHT	[16:30]
asciilifeform	'scheme is the good half of cl'	[16:30]
mircea_popescu	phf 12 100k loc projects, turns out.	[16:30]
mircea_popescu	and i fear nobody does nor could anyone have such resources.	[16:30]
adlai	modern CL (as opposed to the ANSI doorstop) is a tool that evolved from a standard. r5rs is a standard. tinyscheme is a tool. etc etc... vita brevis, but there are at least a couple usable artes	[16:31]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391553 << hilariously, this is part of what i do for a living now.	[16:32]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 19:29:40; mircea_popescu: and i fear nobody does nor could anyone have such resources.	[16:32]
asciilifeform	mega-bezzlatron ~does~ have resources.	[16:32]
mircea_popescu	to no significant eventual effect.	[16:32]
asciilifeform	can't disagree!	[16:32]
mircea_popescu	so then ... it doesn't.	[16:32]
asciilifeform	(pretty sure it all stokes the furnace at the end of the day)	[16:32]
asciilifeform	hey, having resources and having the brains to not stoke the furnace with'em are different things	[16:33]
mircea_popescu	as the linecount you're digesting increases you don't need more people. you need smarter ones. it's not like if you need one brick carried you hire one lout and ifg you need 10000 you hire 10000. it's like if you want 1kg carried you can use a dog, and if you need 10 tons you gotta learn to speak whale now.	[16:33]
asciilifeform	well yes	[16:33]
asciilifeform	there are no louts there, reading code.	[16:33]
asciilifeform	just me.	[16:33]
mircea_popescu	well so then. i don't want 10x as many people that can jump 1m. i want people who can jump 10m now.	[16:33]
mircea_popescu	wut ?	[16:33]
asciilifeform	10 tons.	[16:33]
adlai	phf: also, afaict, clasp is designed for manipulating existing C++ libraries with your own tendrils, rather than tendriling an existing turdatron. tinyscheme is designed for the latter.	[16:33]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i'm the 'whale' that moves the 10 tonnes, there.	[16:35]
asciilifeform	(i don't work at '10,000 dogs' shops, as a matter of principle)	[16:35]
mircea_popescu	you know, if human ability were actually infinite, management wouldn't exist.	[16:35]
asciilifeform	it isn't infinite, but varies more than dog/whale.	[16:35]
mircea_popescu	definitely.	[16:36]
asciilifeform	more like whale/euglena.	[16:36]
mircea_popescu	point remains, resource needs don't scale well in this type of problem.	[16:36]
asciilifeform	it scales pretty well, if tmsr were an actual empire it could have a 100% mod6 and a 100% asciilifeform et al	[16:37]
asciilifeform	instead of ~5-10%	[16:37]
asciilifeform	granted this is not 10,000 dogs.	[16:37]
asciilifeform	but nobody ~needs~ 10,000 dogs.	[16:37]
phf	adlai: i don't see the difference. both require you to annotate your classes/method/data somehow. clasp requires less annotation with larger impact then tinyscheme, e.g. it knows about c++ and can do some advanced ffi-ing	[16:38]
asciilifeform	phf: cpp does enough munging at compile time that this whole concept is disastrously meaningless	[16:38]
mircea_popescu	ffi, fast fourier interfacing ?	[16:38]
asciilifeform	foreign function interface	[16:39]
mircea_popescu	o hey.	[16:39]
asciilifeform	phf: you can't repl straight into cpp, and trying is guaranteed to bring you to grief	[16:39]
phf	asciilifeform: that's what clasp does	[16:39]
asciilifeform	embeds a cpp ~interpreter~ ?	[16:39]
asciilifeform	even if this were so, this breaks the language semantics.	[16:39]
asciilifeform	think about it.	[16:39]
adlai	while you may want missile guidance on board the missile, you might not want the chip fab on board as well	[16:39]
asciilifeform	a cpp is that is interpreted, and where magic that normally happens during compilation can happen MORE THAN ONCE, and AT RUNTIME, is guaranteed semantic-distinct from ordinary cpp.	[16:40]
asciilifeform	cpp is not merely braindamaged, it is a roadkill that has sat in the sun for all of july	[16:40]
asciilifeform	stop trying to attach life support to it.	[16:40]
asciilifeform	(and this is pointedly not the intent of shiva.)	[16:41]
adlai	my understanding is that nobody here wants to make bitcoind, the minimal concrete-sealed weaponized Bitcoin-that-Exists, able to compile a new version of itself	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	god help us.	[16:41]
asciilifeform	adlai: me.	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	what ?	[16:41]
asciilifeform	obviously not with the cpp garbage.	[16:42]
asciilifeform	but the mythical os.	[16:42]
mircea_popescu	you mean bitcoin-os	[16:42]
mircea_popescu	oh	[16:42]
asciilifeform	aha.	[16:42]
mircea_popescu	well it'd pretty damned well be able to, else how is it an os	[16:42]
adlai	asciilifeform: isn't shiva supposed to be an optimal point BETWEEN sentient-AGI-bitcoinOS and jsonrpc on port 8332?	[16:42]
asciilifeform	i can't speak for others, but 'i come to bury ' the garbage, not to praise it.'	[16:42]
phf	asciilifeform: while the goals are different, the mechanism is the same. you annotate classes, methods and get stable refs in your lisp instance, which shares heap with the running c++ process.	[16:42]
adlai	rather than some continually-shifting goalpost that asymptotically approaches whatever sentience seems least broken	[16:43]
mircea_popescu	phf but these adnotations are necessarily not translateable.	[16:43]
asciilifeform	phf: annotate laboriously, by hand, and painfully aware of the impedance mismatches	[16:43]
asciilifeform	rather than automatic claptrap.	[16:43]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391045 << that said, he has the best twitter ever: https://twitter.com/peterthiel	[16:43]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 15:28:44; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because thiel got money and no self respect.	[16:43]
assbot	Peter Thiel (@peterthiel) \| Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVls5k )	[16:43]
mircea_popescu	adlai no, shiva isn't supposed to be "an optimal point". it is supposed to be a CORRECT replacement of a currently broken implementation.	[16:43]
mircea_popescu	and yes, both json and rpc are broken by design	[16:44]
asciilifeform	phf: know the stories where, in the Dark Future of Hello Kitty, man's neurons are replaced one by one with robotic ones, and he doesn't notice ?	[16:44]
asciilifeform	it is my intention to do this to trb.	[16:44]
adlai	lemme put it another way... somewhere in the ANSI spec are probably one, two, or even three ~hundred~ symbols which the weaponized bitcoind-os does not need in its guts. define-setf-expander? define-method-combination? where do you draw the line?	[16:44]
mircea_popescu	too soon.	[16:44]
asciilifeform	adlai: ergo why i did not pick cl	[16:44]
adlai	exactly.	[16:44]
adlai	ergo why the clasp horse is also unnecessary to continue flogging.	[16:45]
asciilifeform	also i laugh when folks take the spew of academitard 'compiler research' claptrap and try to actually use	[16:45]
mircea_popescu	well the other one bated him.	[16:45]
asciilifeform	sorta like going to a toy store to buy power tools	[16:45]
asciilifeform	'hey this drill whirrs, more loudly even'	[16:46]
asciilifeform	let's use.	[16:46]
mircea_popescu	this log is moving so fast i'm actually getting contiguity issues trying to follow.	[16:46]
adlai	again, not trying to perscribe what's right; obviously asciilifeform understands what he's trying to do infinitely better than i can; but... i think the line is somewhere between embedding an interpreter for a subset of r5rs, and embedding a ~compiler~	[16:46]
asciilifeform	fortunately for mircea_popescu , now i go and pet pet and wander around.	[16:46]
*	asciilifeform bbl	[16:46]
phf	clasp is not "compiler research", is designed to scratch itch of a single person, for doing computational chemistry	[16:46]
adlai	happy wanderings asciilifeform	[16:46]
mircea_popescu	adlai there's no option to embedding a compiler in an os.	[16:47]
adlai	mircea_popescu: in these early days, when Bitcoin does not yet fully Exist, it seems as though everything is an option. the full shiva vision, as i understand it from recent logs, opens the door to doing exactly that, if some energetic idiot decides it's a good idea	[16:48]
mircea_popescu	looky : currently we have a script that pulls dependencies, checks them, and builds.	[16:49]
mircea_popescu	the reason alf wants a cd is because what he really wants is A BOOT CD.	[16:49]
adlai	i don't think it's a good idea and i'm trying to dispel the notion for others who may. i'm a little surprised at http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391599 and probably misunderstood alf.	[16:49]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 19:40:36; asciilifeform: adlai: me.	[16:49]
mircea_popescu	nor is this eventual situation avoidable at all.	[16:49]
*	adlai was "it's"ing about "doing exactly that", not about "BOOT CD"	[16:49]
*	adlai doesn't want a CD because 4/5ths of his hardware doesn't know what CDs are... but this is back to bedrock issues	[16:50]
mircea_popescu	i think maybe you've formed a partial idea of what's being discussed through the age old process of having read a partial set of what's been said.	[16:50]
mircea_popescu	but in any case, compiling bitcoin in bitcoin is not either a goal or liable to be implemented before actually having a bitcoin-fs say.	[16:51]
*	adlai keeps reading, both logs and seals, and maybe someday will have another partial idea	[16:51]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless, the fact that bitcoin-os is the unavoidable end of this entire process requires things be thought out with a view to that fact.	[16:51]
adlai	well patches, not seals. the latter aren't particularly stimulating reading material per se	[16:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105484 @ 0.0005514 = 58.1639 BTC [-]	[16:53]
*	TheAdversary has quit (Disconnected by services)	[16:54]
mod6	ok	[16:54]
mod6	so... i've integrated asciilifeform's fix into a new patch that will replace the old one: http://dpaste.com/2KCXN8A.txt	[16:55]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQ2N5 )	[16:55]
mod6	I'm going to build with this and live test it before I submit to the mailing list.	[16:55]
mod6	bbs.	[16:55]
*	TheAdversary (~adversary@unaffiliated/hasimir/bot/theadversary) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:56]
adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391635 << this thread is also further evidence that 'satoshi' was/included a plumber rather than academic or architect	[16:59]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 19:45:44; phf: clasp is not "compiler research", is designed to scratch itch of a single person, for doing computational chemistry	[16:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92692 @ 0.00055672 = 51.6035 BTC [+]	[16:59]
phf	the thread mostly reminded me of http://slaviccenter.com/languageschool/images/10104.jpg	[16:59]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQDOE )	[17:00]
phf	so i added inline patch display to my patch display displayer instead http://104.131.72.249/patches/mod6_fix_dumpblock_params	[17:00]
assbot	mod6_fix_dumpblock_params ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQHOC )	[17:00]
adlai	phf: this web-facing thing is part of your CL vtron?	[17:00]
phf	adlai: yes	[17:02]
*	shesek (~shesek@bzq-84-110-108-61.cablep.bezeqint.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:03]
*	adlai wonders at the boundedness of CL vtrons... probably nonexistent	[17:03]
adlai	in the same sense as "eleven rabbis, twelve opinions"	[17:04]
ben_vulpes	boundedness?	[17:04]
adlai	boundedness [of implementation diversity]	[17:05]
adlai	how many roads must a man walk down before he stops taking the less-trod fork	[17:05]
ben_vulpes	how many rickety fucking buckets of others' design must a man endure before he gets the fuck out and walks on his own feet is the question i'm endeavoring to resolve for myself	[17:07]
ben_vulpes	entirely unrelatedly, can anyone corroborate the story of the russians who burned a shitton of usd on camera and got the then-fed to credit some domestic account or other?	[17:11]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391110 << i did, not saying that it's not lying through its teeth though: http://imgur.com/Y1tGvZC	[17:15]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 15:52:04; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390875 << i'd be surprised if you actually can ever find this.	[17:15]
assbot	Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQSFhP )	[17:15]
mod6	ben_vulpes: how we lookin' bud?	[17:17]
mod6	im gonna test this revised patch, if works, send it, then get that SoBA in ship-shape.	[17:18]
ben_vulpes	did you get a chance to repro the issue i ran into with asciilifeform's shiva patches?	[17:18]
mod6	hmm.	[17:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31800 @ 0.00055672 = 17.7037 BTC [+]	[17:19]
ben_vulpes	the 'rebaked' ones.	[17:19]
mod6	i might need a reminder. i did go through a bunch of your comments though.	[17:19]
ben_vulpes	!s bug for you	[17:19]
assbot	17 results for 'bug for you' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bug+for+you	[17:19]
mod6	oh yeah.	[17:19]
mod6	yeah, no clue what you did there.	[17:19]
mod6	i was able to press all of that out just fine.	[17:19]
ben_vulpes	the rebaked ones?	[17:20]
mod6	just had to stick his stuff into patches and .seals. but in all honesty, im not even sure if the patches & seals I'm using are what is indended at this point.	[17:20]
mod6	lets not worry about that for now. that thing is in its infancy.	[17:20]
ben_vulpes	so if i press those individually, in order, they work. but if i press the last patch, i believe that it fails to find its antecedents.	[17:21]
mod6	i kinda have to turn a deaf ear to a lot of this stuff until the new month starts, and even then, i gotta keep my eye on the prize - dispite any other problems on the periphery.	[17:21]
mod6	so ben_vulpes, understand that there is like a jumble of different things he submitted, and if the wrong ones are incorporated, it might puke.	[17:22]
mod6	like i said, lets just hold off on that.	[17:22]
mod6	it's not hurting anyone, and its not going in the release.	[17:22]
ben_vulpes	okeee	[17:22]
mod6	i can't even take the time to jump down that rabbit hole right now.	[17:22]
mod6	make sense?	[17:22]
ben_vulpes	yeah boss	[17:22]
mod6	ahh, and then there is this now -- when compiling with alf's fix incorporated:	[17:23]
mod6	http://dpaste.com/1AVK5ZP.txt	[17:24]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQTW8K )	[17:24]
mod6	so that's not the only thing that needed to change.	[17:24]
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phf	huh so with original v design, mod6 could sign all the patches that are deemed releasable, and then all you need is mod6.asc in your wot and trb will press	[17:29]
phf	perhaps then trb instructions should be "download mod6.asc into ~/.wot" which is a trust starting point	[17:31]
phf	where's mirrors can contain any number of patches	[17:33]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391245 << lines 64 and 65 of v.pl. perhaps i can't read perl?	[17:33]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 17:53:21; mod6: <+ben_vulpes> yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings << where do you see this? this is not a thing. that would fail to compile/pass-interpreter-smell-test.	[17:33]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391246 << oh this is superb	[17:35]
mod6	lemme take a look.	[17:35]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 17:53:34; phf: mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ? << like http://104.131.72.249/patches/? (is in no way bulletproof, so i expect it to be down by the time i come back from breakfast)	[17:35]
mod6	what version are you looking at? perhaps my 64 & 65 are different?	[17:35]
mod6	oh oh	[17:36]
mod6	im retard	[17:36]
mod6	one sec.	[17:36]
mod6	my $import = "gpg --homedir $tdir --logger-fd 1 --keyid-format=long " .	[17:37]
mod6	"--import $wdir/$pubkey 2> /dev/null";	[17:37]
mod6	these right ^	[17:37]
ben_vulpes	yessir	[17:37]
mod6	ok so whats going on there is that to preserve 80 cols, i create a command spanning two lines	[17:37]
mod6	"command part A" . "command part B" and set that equal to $import	[17:38]
ben_vulpes	so the '.' is both a line-break escape and string concatenation?	[17:38]
mod6	then in the next line i do this:	[17:38]
mod6	my $res = `$import`;	[17:38]
mod6	and execute $import and set the result (output) of the command to $res	[17:38]
mod6	<+ben_vulpes> so the '.' is both a line-break escape and string concatenation? << its not a line break. its just a string concatenation.	[17:38]
ben_vulpes	well there is a line break between those two strings	[17:39]
mod6	notice how there is a space after '=long '	[17:39]
ben_vulpes	sure	[17:39]
mod6	yup yup, i put a 0x0a in there just to preseve 80 cols. but perl deoesn't care nor does it add a ' ' to the command string	[17:39]
ben_vulpes	that's what i thought	[17:40]
mod6	ok.	[17:40]
ben_vulpes	thanks for confirming mod6	[17:40]
mod6	np	[17:40]
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*	raedah (~raedah@172.56.39.22) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:41]
mod6	some of you out there who are following along will be like, "yeah, what about line 426, or 484 then!! eh!?"	[17:42]
mod6	well, i missed a few, need to clean those up :P	[17:42]
jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391302 lemme see. your beloved gmail marked README as application/octet-stream	[17:42]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 18:31:17; asciilifeform: BURNNN	[17:42]
jurov	which caused turdatron to skip it while searching for clearsigned part	[17:42]
punkman	everything I've sent has been octet-stream, I think	[17:42]
jurov	punkman what outgoing address/alias do you use?	[17:43]
jurov	did you ever sent anything to ml?	[17:44]
punkman	pub@extemporized.com , I manually set octet-stream for all my attachments, but it's possible the crappy email-sender I use overrode it for the email body	[17:44]
jurov	ah i see. but you send the clearsigned part as Content-Type: text/plain	[17:45]
punkman	ah, ok then	[17:45]
jurov	(example: [BTC-dev] Some test patches and my V implementation)	[17:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116050 @ 0.00055698 = 64.6375 BTC [+] {3}	[17:47]
mod6	asciilifeform: <+mod6> so... i've integrated asciilifeform's fix into a new patch that will replace the old one: http://dpaste.com/2KCXN8A.txt << <+mod6> ahh, and then there is this now -- when compiling with alf's fix incorporated: <+mod6> http://dpaste.com/1AVK5ZP.txt << any thoughts on how to fix0r this?	[17:48]
punkman	web-based turdatron woulda saved you a lot of debug time :/	[17:48]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQ2N5 )	[17:48]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQTW8K )	[17:48]
mod6	meanwhile, im gonna work on getting this SoBA completed. :]	[17:49]
jurov	asciilifeform: can't you just get rid of gmail? or it's the same situation as you and usg?	[17:49]
*	assbot gives voice to felipelalli	[17:49]
felipelalli	deedbot- http://pastebin.com/raw/Bd3Qg7aW	[17:49]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQXFTR )	[17:49]
deedbot-	rejected: 1	[17:49]
felipelalli	!gettrust assbot felipelalli	[17:51]
assbot	Trust relationship from user assbot to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 3 via 3 connections. \| http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=felipelalli \| http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/felipelalli/	[17:51]
jurov	punkman you're welcome to contribute a script that checks web submission (upload form for clearsigned text + any number of "attachments") and turns it into email	[17:51]
felipelalli	any ideas why my doc was rejected?	[17:52]
jurov	to mirror turdatron, only clearsigned text is checked if it's someone known to gpg, anything other is passed unchanged	[17:52]
adlai	deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/3HV3FZC.txt	[17:53]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQY4Wa )	[17:53]
deedbot-	rejected: 1	[17:53]
adlai	felipelalli: nope, but the symptom is reproducible!	[17:53]
jurov	felipelalli: it's expired	[17:53]
felipelalli	jurov, and how can I workaround this? Or this is out of my control? :)	[17:54]
felipelalli	my GPG key is expired you mean?	[17:54]
jurov	if you want you can send it to btc-dev, it ignores key expirations	[17:54]
jurov	yes your gpg key	[17:54]
adlai	what is expired? i was able to load it without any error about this	[17:54]
*	adlai sees: pub rsa4096/ED5CDE14 2013-05-02 [expires: 2018-12-06]	[17:55]
jurov	felipelalli: did you prolong it recently?	[17:55]
felipelalli	yes.	[17:55]
felipelalli	It has expired in my birthday (2015-12-06)	[17:56]
jurov	well, then both mine and deedbot-'s keyring wasn't updated with your update	[17:56]
felipelalli	I have uploaded to MIT.	[17:56]
jurov	you must wait for the botmaster (trinque afaik) to fix it	[17:56]
jurov	yes you uploaded, that part is fine, but bot hasn't downloaded it	[17:56]
adlai	assuming or suggesting that people use automated key upgrade mechanisms is... somewhere between negligent and criminal. at least, criminally negligent.	[17:57]
felipelalli	jurov, nice! Thank you.	[17:57]
adlai	felipelalli: maybe try another http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=add-key	[17:57]
assbot	30 results for 'add-key' - #bitcoin-assets search	[17:57]
jurov	oh yes! try resubmitting your pubkey to deedbot.	[17:58]
felipelalli	deedbot-: add-key http://dpaste.com/0019PDB.txt	[17:59]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQYRXa )	[17:59]
adlai	... ( http://bit.ly/1wBYQL8 )	[17:59]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQYWdz )	[17:59]
*	ben_vulpes chuckles	[18:00]
felipelalli	deedbot- gives some feedback after the add-key?	[18:01]
adlai	ben_vulpes: archive.is the best -ception	[18:01]
felipelalli	It should say something like "imported: FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9" - but it didn't.	[18:02]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21832 @ 0.0005514 = 12.0382 BTC [-] {2}	[18:16]
jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390983 this is already done, turdatron links raw version of all email parts (check for yourself)	[18:20]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 14:42:22; mircea_popescu: just, if you want to add a patch, should be able to dump it as dpaste also.	[18:20]
jurov	so you can pass clearsigned text directly to deedbot like: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-01-2016#1359305	[18:21]
assbot	Logged on 02-01-2016 21:57:55; jurov: deedbot-: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20160102/attachment_0451ec0ba3062d4608318f96270dd7c9f65e42e1.txt	[18:21]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: if i understand the shiva rebake correctly, applying tinyscheme_genesis_vpatch, then tinyscheme_crud_snip, then tinyscheme_repl_fix_fixed bangs the tree into the correct shape?	[18:21]
*	Alopex (~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:23]
jurov	trinque: does deedbot allow submissions with detached signatures? like "deedbot- "	[18:24]
punkman	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Cd9wGHtr0	[18:26]
assbot	Egyptian Lover - I Need A Freak - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1QR2LiJ )	[18:26]
jurov	thay would be much cleaner solution that trying to invent some "container" for patches to prevent whitespace/newline munging	[18:29]
deedbot-	[BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Rand Paul will be Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1208/rand-paul-will-be-republicans-2016-presidential-nominee/#b14	[18:30]
*	ascii_rear (~asciilife@pool-108-31-64-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:30]
BingoBoingo	!up ascii_rear	[18:31]
*	assbot gives voice to BingoBoingo	[18:32]
BingoBoingo	!up ascii_rear	[18:32]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_rear	[18:32]
ascii_rear	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391753 << spam forced me into the wagen	[18:32]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 20:48:02; jurov: asciilifeform: can't you just get rid of gmail? or it's the same situation as you and usg?	[18:33]
ascii_rear	i can't use mp's filter algo	[18:33]
ascii_rear	gotta be able to receive from not-seen-before addrs	[18:33]
ascii_rear	but also don't have 2hrs/day to hand-sift	[18:34]
ascii_rear	i have a nongmail box but it is rapidly drowning under deluge	[18:35]
phf	ascii_rear: you tried fastmail?	[18:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34371 @ 0.0005517 = 18.9625 BTC [+]	[18:35]
*	ascii_rear has quit (Read error: No route to host)	[18:37]
phf	well, then	[18:37]
mircea_popescu	omfg no fucking wai.	[18:37]
*	mircea_popescu goes back to log reading the gap	[18:38]
*	ascii_rear (~asciilife@pool-108-31-64-194.washdc.fios.verizon.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	!up ascii_rear	[18:39]
-assbot-	Insufficient rights, mircea_popescu, !up yourself on PM first.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	http://104.131.72.249/patches/mod6_fix_dumpblock_params << this is rapidly becoming very sweet. mind adding the select javascript too ? :D	[18:40]
assbot	mod6_fix_dumpblock_params ... ( http://bit.ly/1QQQHOC )	[18:40]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	!up ascii_rear	[18:41]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_rear	[18:41]
trinque	jurov │ trinque: does deedbot allow submissions with detached signatures? like "deedbot- " << it does not, but is not rocket surgery to add. seems useful for posting scripts	[18:41]
ascii_rear	and its gangrene stinks!!	[18:41]
*	Xuthus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[18:41]
trinque	!up felipelalli	[18:41]
*	assbot gives voice to felipelalli	[18:41]
phf	kek, Selfimportant html ButtSecks header	[18:42]
ascii_rear	waiwut	[18:42]
felipelalli	kakobrekla, do you have an idea why deedbot- didn't accept my renewed key? thank you.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	phf http://trilema.com/2015/that-spiffy-selection-thing/	[18:44]
assbot	That spiffy selection thing. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1jZbjX6 )	[18:44]
kakobrekla	felipelalli ask trinque, i dont run deedbot-	[18:44]
trinque	felipelalli: I thought you were talking about assbot	[18:44]
ascii_rear	maybe we will learn now why it does nothing on my wwwtrons	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	srsly.	[18:45]
ascii_rear	bbl	[18:45]
*	ascii_rear has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[18:45]
ben_vulpes	aha i begin to see the wisdom of pressing all reachable leaves now	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391704 << yeah that's the idea, but we specifically dun want to say "trust x thing" in the imperative.	[18:47]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 20:28:00; phf: huh so with original v design, mod6 could sign all the patches that are deemed releasable, and then all you need is mod6.asc in your wot and trb will press	[18:47]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless, a large chunk of what mod6 is doing is running through the ever-expanding ball of patches and making a curated set.	[18:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40211 @ 0.00055583 = 22.3505 BTC [+] {2}	[18:48]
jurov	i'm willing to bet than when there will be turdatron www upload form, asciilifeform will use the most broken browser in existence to try to upload the files	[18:48]
punkman	lol	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391737 <<< aaaahahahaha	[18:49]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 20:41:16; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391302 lemme see. your beloved gmail marked README as application/octet-stream	[18:49]
jurov	like he does with the email client	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	hey alf, how about you move out of the us ? hm ? HM ?	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	jurov there is some merit to that lol.	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	da fuck, you must be the only one here using gmail.	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391760 << if your sig expired it may be that deedbot will still see the expired one until it updates. if it ever does.	[18:51]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 20:51:15; felipelalli: any ideas why my doc was rejected?	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	really, expiring signatures is a stupid idea.	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	you want to expire a sig, do it by hand.	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391794 << yeah but i meant, before it goes in, not after. after yes it does, and it's very nice.	[18:53]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 21:19:02; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390983 this is already done, turdatron links raw version of all email parts (check for yourself)	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1391802 << thinking about it i think you';re right actually.	[18:54]
assbot	Logged on 31-01-2016 21:27:52; jurov: thay would be much cleaner solution that trying to invent some "container" for patches to prevent whitespace/newline munging	[18:54]
punkman	gpg already has dpastable ascii containers	[18:57]
jurov	but they are completely unreadable	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	we're going the other way : taking gpg out, not putting more of it in.	[18:57]
ben_vulpes	anyways, mod6 you gotta upgrade v.pl to press all reachable leaves. that's the problem i'm running into with asciilifeform's recent shiva rebake	[18:57]
jurov	*human-unreadable	[18:58]
mod6	all reachable leaves	[18:58]
mod6	it does	[18:58]
ben_vulpes	o.O	[18:59]
*	ben_vulpes digs	[18:59]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79696 @ 0.00055644 = 44.346 BTC [+] {5}	[19:00]
*	raedah has quit (Quit: Leaving)	[19:01]
phf	put everything in tar containers?	[19:02]
phf	fwiw stock selection magic doesn't work out of the box on safari	[19:03]
phf	nor firefox	[19:03]
phf	mircea_popescu: http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_zap_showmyip_crud does selection work here for you?	[19:06]
assbot	asciilifeform_zap_showmyip_crud ... ( http://bit.ly/1QR7NvC )	[19:06]
ben_vulpes	can someone confirm that it's just as possible to malleate a transaction low->high s as it is to malleate it high->low ?	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	nope	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	phf does the archive.is implementation work for yo u ?	[19:10]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: meaning that transactions can only be malleated from high->low order?	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes in what sense "just as possible"	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes nope was @phf's question	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	oh.	[19:11]
ben_vulpes	in that it's possible to malleate in either direction. ease i suppose doesn't figure into the question.	[19:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55084 @ 0.00055834 = 30.7556 BTC [+] {2}	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	what's your idea of possible ?	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	"is it as possible to turn a grade from 50% to 75% as it is to turn it from 75% to 50%" ?	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	in what sense ? paper will carry anything. the social practice of throwing curves won't. etc.	[19:13]
ben_vulpes	if you have access to the gradebook...	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	if you mine yourself, on your own coin, it is possible to do anything.	[19:14]
ben_vulpes	so a decomposition then	[19:14]
ben_vulpes	i create a transaction with a low s value. someone listening to broadcast transactions can rewrite my tx to have a high s value.	[19:14]
ben_vulpes	correct?	[19:14]
ben_vulpes	(create and broadcast)	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	numerically, there is no way to distinguish between a transaction that was signed high and a transaction that was signed low and malleated to high	[19:15]
mircea_popescu	juist like numerically there is no way to distinguish between a transaction that was signed low and one that was signed high and malleated to low.	[19:15]
ben_vulpes	great, i follow.	[19:15]
mircea_popescu	mostly because the conversion consists of substracting from a constant	[19:15]
ben_vulpes	now, are miners not mining transactions signed low?	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	the miners are mining low-s as is and malleating all high-s and mining them as low-s	[19:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15575 @ 0.00056082 = 8.7348 BTC [+] {2}	[19:17]
ben_vulpes	okay.	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	the benefit of all this pile of legwork is deeply unclear,	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	but the derps ran off with progress and here we are.	[19:17]
ben_vulpes	now were b,tmsr~ to run its own pool mining only high-s transactions, would clients in the wild reject those blocks?	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	i originally thought so but research in here shows that no, it's never checked.	[19:17]
mircea_popescu	feel free to read it yourself, pointer to code was in log	[19:18]
ben_vulpes	sure, i'm mostly confirming my own recollection.	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	right.	[19:18]
ben_vulpes	but digging as far down into the roots of my conclusions as makes sense to dispel ambiguity	[19:18]
ben_vulpes	uh next	[19:19]
ben_vulpes	how did you come to the conclusion that it was miners doing the malleation, and not nobodies malleating and rebroadcasting?	[19:19]
mircea_popescu	cui prodest.	[19:19]
ben_vulpes	> deeply unclear	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	cui prodest scelus is fecit, he who benefits from misdeed did it.	[19:20]
ben_vulpes	could just as easily be a USG FUD campaign.	[19:20]
ben_vulpes	how do the miners benefit though.	[19:20]
mircea_popescu	tx fee	[19:21]
ben_vulpes	it is greater on malleated transactions?! but but	[19:21]
ben_vulpes	this'd invalidate the signature.	[19:21]
ben_vulpes	i'm sure that i misunderstand.	[19:21]
mircea_popescu	if you include the tx, you get the fee. if you don't include it, for any reason, you don't get the fee.	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	since they agreed to only include low-s for whatever random reason / concern trolling / misinformed desire to be nice and good, they're stuck now.	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	note the very usg-tard approach to things : it IS true that ambiguous signatures are bad ; it is DEEPLY UNTRUE that we can counter this by AGREEING among ourselves "not to do it".	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	statutory solutions to bad design, a "western world" specialty.	[19:23]
ben_vulpes	but there's no actual reason why they couldn't mine high-s transactions, adherence to party line aside.	[19:23]
mircea_popescu	there is no real reason to do anything they do anyway	[19:24]
mircea_popescu	adherence to shared delusion aside.	[19:24]
mod6	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000203.html	[19:27]
assbot	[BTC-dev] The Bitcoin Foundation: STATE OF BITCOIN ADDRESS ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRacXn )	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	o hey.	[19:27]
mircea_popescu	``heathen command'' << am i the only one seeing a weird set of unmatching quotes here ?	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	` vs '	[19:29]
ben_vulpes	that's how mod6 has always quoted things...	[19:29]
BingoBoingo	in that it's possible to malleate in either direction. ease i suppose doesn't figure into the question. << Someone malleating to high-s is why power derps started malleating to low-s	[19:29]
mod6	sometimes when i'm quoteing someone, as opposed to a thing, i'll use `` '' instead.	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	ah k	[19:29]
phf	so selecting works, but visiting url with selection gives me weirdest bugs :o	[19:29]
ben_vulpes	"selecting works!"	[19:29]
ben_vulpes	"viewing, not yet."	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	phf is this a case of "js is useless" or fixable ?	[19:30]
phf	i got tricked into hacking web	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	see what the republic can do to you ?	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	hide your daugthers, nothing is safe.	[19:30]
phf	gotta outsource it to ben_vulpes	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	#b-a corrupts deeper than anything aforeseen.	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo is actually right, there's some history of derpage in all this.	[19:31]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 302 @ 0.0034999 = 1.057 BTC [-]	[19:31]
phf	he can get me a pm at $150/hr and two junior devs $50/hr each in no time. selection will work by next iteration, but will depend on jquery and react	[19:31]
BingoBoingo	since they agreed to only include low-s for whatever random reason / concern trolling / misinformed desire to be nice and good, they're stuck now. << It's power derps malleating tx on the way to miners, including on that realy network.	[19:31]
ben_vulpes	la serenissima might be able to rent my oar pullers if it could convert my deficit spending to turkey-buying dollars	[19:31]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes serenissima would rather buy coke whores from drexl than west coast web coders.	[19:32]
BingoBoingo	BingoBoingo is actually right, there's some history of derpage in all this. << username high-s malleator used on social media was 'amaclin'	[19:32]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: you think i don't know this?	[19:32]
ben_vulpes	how do you think i'd rather spend my dollars, on 'macbook pros' or bitcoins and linux workstations?	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	my bet is diapers and station wagons, but we digress :D	[19:33]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[19:33]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3HV75KR.txt )	[19:33]
ben_vulpes	diapers are pretty cheap, actually.	[19:34]
ben_vulpes	don't even add up to a whole computer over the year.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	actually from what i hear, that's the voice of privilege.	[19:34]
BingoBoingo	brb after dinner and 12&12 study to issue qntra statement	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	anyone thinking diapers are cheap is not-poor in the us	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	just like everyone who had jeans was not-poor in su.	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	mod6 weather it is `high' or `low'. <	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	in the email to the mailing list. [R ?]	[19:35]
mod6	oh hey, did i screw that up?	[19:36]
ben_vulpes	oop	[19:37]
mod6	i don't follow.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	the first is a mere spelling error. the second, shoul;dn't there be a [R]eference to the email ?	[19:37]
mod6	mod6's vpatch, `mod6_der_high_low_s.vpatch' [R.09]	[19:38]
mod6	ok yeah, there is a ref in there. ^	[19:38]
mod6	spelling error. christ on a pony.	[19:38]
mod6	"Hier lies mod6, couldn't spell."	[19:38]
ben_vulpes	i even pointed that one out to you, but we're mad busy	[19:38]
mircea_popescu	[ V ]:	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	mod6 released V [v99996] [R.05] that resolved a defect and implemented two	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	change requests. The intimate details of the changes are outlined in the	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	email to the mailing list.	[19:39]
mod6	oh f. yah you did. dangit.	[19:39]
*	mod6 headdrop	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	so then... add a [R.09] at end of that ?	[19:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67095 @ 0.00055133 = 36.9915 BTC [-] {4}	[19:39]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: would you confirm that tinyscheme_genesis_fixed.vpatch does not depend on shiva parts one and two?	[19:39]
mod6	mircea_popescu: that part is just in reference to V's release in R.05, not the high/low S patch which is R.09	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	so then "the email to the mailing list" symbol shouldn't have a reference ?	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	i dunno, doesn't have to, just asking.	[19:40]
mod6	oh, it does, sometimes if it's been referenced before in the document, i don't re-reference it.	[19:41]
mod6	NOTE: With the publication of the latest version of V [v99996] [R.05] these	[19:41]
mod6	makefiles, as they were submitted to the Mailing List [R.06]	[19:41]
mod6	where that part is above the section for [V]	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	ah ok	[19:41]
mod6	i just tried to avoid extra clutter in there.	[19:41]
ben_vulpes	phf: selection works on chrome for me	[19:42]
*	jurov pats mod6 on the shoulder... no problem, i had to redo monthly treasury report once or twice, too	[19:42]
phf	ben_vulpes: yeah, i fixed more things since i last chimed in, but now end range is not being covered on safari	[19:43]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes does the selection work on trilema for you ?	[19:44]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: link me?	[19:44]
ben_vulpes	phf: also, if you'd care to share your llvm/clang compilator i'd love to take a look	[19:45]
phf	so i dropped patches from "[BTC-dev] Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge." but i'm still missing something so they are just hanging there separately, http://104.131.72.249/patches/	[19:45]
assbot	trb ... ( http://bit.ly/1WV9qcg )	[19:45]
punkman	there's a part about a dir rename in that mail	[19:46]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/splendor-in-the-grass/#selection-39.2-39.71 ?	[19:46]
assbot	Splendor in the Grass on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVE9pC )	[19:47]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: highlights "uppose if we were all mentally retarded a la United States / Some O"	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	holy shit	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	"riously, so the girl won't fuck because she figures you don't value her if she" << on my system	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/splendor-in-the-grass/#selection-43.3-43.70 does what you said	[19:48]
assbot	Splendor in the Grass on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRcmGc )	[19:48]
mircea_popescu	omfg they don't count elements the same way.	[19:48]
phf	yeah, that's what i'm debugging right now	[19:48]
ben_vulpes	have fun boys	[19:48]
ben_vulpes	with that spittoon	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes https://archive.is/TtMr6#selection-83.9-83.27 < what's this select ?	[19:49]
assbot	Splendor in the Grass on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRcs0E )	[19:49]
ben_vulpes	"naked Natalie Wood"	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	RIGHT!	[19:49]
ben_vulpes	have fun	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	so wtf.	[19:49]
ben_vulpes	don't know or care	[19:49]
phf	mircea_popescu: it's broken across multiple dom elements	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	i guess i fucked it up when putting it on trilema ? asciilifeform ^ mind saying what the above link does ?	[19:49]
ben_vulpes	aha	[19:51]
phf	on safari first selection (if we were all...) simply breaks, second one works	[19:51]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: has blessed us with a new root node with which to fuzz all v implementations	[19:51]
mircea_popescu	phf the truth is that it'd be great if there was a way for reader to select what text he's referencing. but if it can't be made to work then we can't really use it.	[19:52]
ben_vulpes	but it's so close! with only an unknowable amount of further hacking it could totally work!	[19:54]
punkman	why not highlight server-side	[19:54]
phf	ben_vulpes: so shiva 2 of 2 links to rest of tree, shiva 1 of 1 is a genesis with no descendants, and that whole tinyscheme_genesis_fixed tree presses into tinyscheme/ root that's not even inside bitcoin. i'm not sure what ascii is up to	[19:54]
mircea_popescu	punkman server doens't know what reader cares about.	[19:54]
punkman	just need a ? instead of #	[19:55]
ben_vulpes	phf: i see	[19:55]
mircea_popescu	punkman how do you figure this'd work ?	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	the dom is a wholly client side thing, server just spits out a string as far as it's concerned	[19:56]
punkman	it'd work better for viewing, because I've seen broken selections a lot too	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	viewport allignment also client side thing	[19:56]
ben_vulpes	a thing to do might be to leave the genesis press as-is, move the resulting tinyscheme dir into the correct shiva location and then press the rest of the patches reground to reference the shivadir	[19:57]
ben_vulpes	this means that v-pressings have to be idempotent.	[19:57]
ben_vulpes	eg that `v press shiva stans_sweet_patch.vpatch && v press shiva stans_sweet_patch.vpatch' must result in the same tree as running the command once.	[19:59]
ben_vulpes	so that operators can press, migrate dir, and press more.	[19:59]
ben_vulpes	;;later tell asciilifeform ^^ plz to opine	[20:00]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[20:00]
jurov	!mpif	[20:02]
assbot	BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021486 B (Total: 426.88 B). Delta: -1.51 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000209 BTC [-]	[20:02]
jurov	!t m f.mpif	[20:02]
assbot	I don't give a shit who saw what and who did what or who did who.	[20:02]
phf	so if i have a->b->c d->e and i'm pressing to b, i need to make sure that topo sort is d e a b c, so that the press includes d and e	[20:11]
phf	doing by the book kahn topo sort on my graph results in topo a b c d e so pressing to c drops the whole d e subgraph	[20:11]
punkman	http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/founder-liberty-reserve-pleads-guilty-laundering-more-250-million-through-his-digital qntra tip	[20:14]
assbot	Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250 Million through His Digital Currency Business \| OPA \| Department of Justice ... ( http://bit.ly/1WVGFwa )	[20:14]
ben_vulpes	phf: yuuuup.	[20:16]
felipelalli	mircea_popescu, I know that you think expire a key is a bad idea. I saw you saying that in MPEx FAQ. But why? Could you elaborate more about that? Isn't that useful in case someone dies or lost the control over the key?	[20:17]
felipelalli	trinque, no I was talking about deedbot-. The bot didn't accept my renewed key.	[20:19]
phf	in fact kahn iterates over a set of nodes, so there's no explicit order guarantee	[20:19]
felipelalli	deedbot-: add-key http://dpaste.com/0019PDB.txt	[20:20]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QQYRXa )	[20:20]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97146 @ 0.00056026 = 54.427 BTC [+] {3}	[20:21]
*	TheRealJohnGalt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[20:21]
ben_vulpes	phf: the chains must kiss somewhere in order for the ordering to make sense	[20:21]
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phf	aye	[20:21]
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felipelalli	It makes a lot of sense to me: https://help.riseup.net/en/gpg-best-practices#use-an-expiration-date-less-than-two-years	[20:23]
assbot	OpenPGP Best Practices - help.riseup.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1Prv5r4 )	[20:23]
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ben_vulpes	felipelalli: mpex doesn't respect key expiration extension.	[20:23]
phf	i can change my toposort to consider first seen nodes first, which results in the full press like http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_shiva_part_2_of_2	[20:24]
assbot	asciilifeform_shiva_part_2_of_2 ... ( http://bit.ly/1Prvdqq )	[20:24]
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phf	but that merges nodes from unrelated graphs without any sort of sense or reason	[20:24]
phf	so pressing anything from shiva graph is entirely senseless http://104.131.72.249/patches/asciilifeform_tinyscheme_shiva_bridge	[20:25]
assbot	asciilifeform_tinyscheme_shiva_bridge ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrvlpP )	[20:25]
phf	asciilifeform: ^ plx	[20:26]
ben_vulpes	http://104.131.72.249/patches/tinyscheme_genesis_fixed << you still have 1/2 and 2/2 in there	[20:26]
assbot	tinyscheme_genesis_fixed ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrvqKh )	[20:26]
ben_vulpes	this is a nifty patchbrowser, phf	[20:26]
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ben_vulpes	phf: what do you mean "first seen nodes"?	[20:28]
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phf	ben_vulpes: kahn loops over a list of nodes that starts with genesis. on each iteration node in the list is inspected, its children added to the list for further inspection. you can give priority to what was in the list first or give priority to what's in the list last, which will produce either depth first or breadth first walk	[20:33]
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ben_vulpes	aha.	[20:34]
ben_vulpes	i suspect v's toposort will need to account for multiple geneses	[20:35]
phf	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388877	[20:35]
assbot	Logged on 29-01-2016 18:19:27; phf: right now it seems like an artifact of topo sort	[20:35]
ben_vulpes	either that or find roots first, toposort from each root, and then apply each set of toposorted patches in some arbitrary order	[20:35]
phf	well, original v uses python dictionary for "list to inspect", i.e. order is non-deterministic	[20:36]
ben_vulpes	mhm, i recall	[20:37]
ben_vulpes	i think it's asciibeterministic	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	phf> doing by the book kahn topo sort on my graph results in topo a b c d e so pressing to c drops the whole d e subgraph << this is correct.	[20:42]
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mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu, I know that you think expire a key is a bad idea. I saw you saying that in MPEx FAQ. But why? Could you elaborate more about that? Isn't that useful in case someone dies or lost the control over the key? << how is a bitfield in the gpg key help you in case you die ? or lose control of the key ? neither of these are time-able events.	[20:42]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: this introduces a conflict between "pressing a head presses all signed patches at same leaf-level that have been signed by wot"	[20:46]
ben_vulpes	conflict *with	[20:46]
mircea_popescu	between what and what ?	[20:46]
mircea_popescu	uh. how are unconnected nodes at "the same level" ? they're at an undefined level	[20:46]
mircea_popescu	and undefined is by definition not equal to anything	[20:46]
ben_vulpes	this was a thing i bounced off weeks ago!	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	if d e do not have a common antecessor with c, pressig to c dropps them.	[20:47]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=14-11-2015#1323384	[20:47]
assbot	Logged on 14-11-2015 02:10:00; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the press algo must then press all same-tree-level leaves for the given leaf, correct?	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	SAME LEVEL!	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	nodes at undefined level are not same with anything.	[20:47]
ben_vulpes	howzabout another scenario	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	c is level 2. d is level ?.	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	? != 2.	[20:48]
ben_vulpes	d is level 0, actually	[20:48]
ben_vulpes	as is a	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	no, it is not.	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	a is level 0, for c. d is level ? for c.	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	you're thinking global scope like some sort of perlhead.	[20:48]
ben_vulpes	flow already makes this mistake iirc	[20:49]
ben_vulpes	but there's no guarantee that it renders a b c d e instead of d e a b c	[20:49]
ben_vulpes	BECAUSE FLATTENING TREES	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	huh ?	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	anyway. there is no concept of level defined outside of a press.	[20:50]
*	ben_vulpes refuses to give up	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	if you're pressing c, then all the leaves c depends on have levels, and only they have a level.	[20:50]
ben_vulpes	yes!	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	so a has 0 and c has 2 and d has nothing.	[20:51]
ben_vulpes	what is to be done with c' and c'', then (patches that also depend on b but have nothing to do with c)	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	if you're pressing e, d is 0, and e is 1, and a, b and c are all ?	[20:51]
ben_vulpes	yes i follow, slow as i am	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	aite.	[20:52]
ben_vulpes	but the primes, do i press them? or simply recurse up the antecedent chain cleanly?	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	what primes ?	[20:52]
ben_vulpes	a b {c, c', c''}	[20:52]
ben_vulpes	where c, c' and c'' all depend on b. if i press c, do c' and c'' make it as well?	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	that's entirely up to you neh ? i'd prefer it if i told you to press c for you to limit yourself to pressing c.	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	someone who is doing debugging might wish to see the whole tree all the way down	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	this is up to the user.	[20:53]
ben_vulpes	sure, and i don't take much umbrage at this.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	generally from what i've understood, the default behaviour was production (1st above), whereas people these days decided they'd like to see development (2nd above). i also don't take umbrage with this.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	but unconnected graphs are a horse of another feather.	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	you wanna see shiva, press e.	[20:55]
ben_vulpes	sorry for all the dumb questions, just working to tease out into explicitude what everyone else takes for granted.	[20:58]
phf	mircea_popescu: what to do about a b->c->d e->f press to c. a b c? or b c?	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	a b c	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	o sorry	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	b c	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes no it's not bad, make sure we're ACTUALLY on the same page as opposed to just jointly excited.	[21:00]
punkman	choosing a position in toposorted list for pressing was just a hack to keep things simple	[21:03]
jurov	deedbot-: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20160201/201601.txt.asc?sha1=295f2ea0b44fc825f052392229d3dc61cf9a2744	[21:04]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1Tvyy9A )	[21:04]
deedbot-	accepted: 1	[21:04]
ben_vulpes	thank you jurov!	[21:05]
ben_vulpes	and thank you for reporting per my ask.	[21:06]
jurov	yw	[21:06]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55608 @ 0.00055514 = 30.8702 BTC [-] {2}	[21:11]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114250 @ 0.00055285 = 63.1631 BTC [-] {6}	[21:18]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17870 @ 0.00055586 = 9.9332 BTC [+] {2}	[21:22]
adlai	deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/27A07FS.txt	[21:25]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QB19Yz )	[21:25]
deedbot-	accepted: 1	[21:25]
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deedbot-	[Qntra] Qntra (S.QNTR) January 2016 Report - http://qntra.net/2016/02/qntra-s-qntr-january-2016-report/	[21:35]
BingoBoingo	punkman: Feel free to qntra it up I got a meeting to get to.	[21:38]
BingoBoingo	deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/2KNDK9M.txt	[21:39]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1QB2gr5 )	[21:39]
deedbot-	accepted: 1	[21:39]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 415813 @ 0.00056296 = 234.0861 BTC [+] {8}	[22:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3432 @ 0.00056417 = 1.9362 BTC [+] {2}	[22:24]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83175 @ 0.00055921 = 46.5123 BTC [-] {3}	[22:45]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79800 @ 0.00056567 = 45.1405 BTC [+] {3}	[23:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00056676 = 16.1527 BTC [+]	[23:26]
BingoBoingo	!up TheRealJohnGalt	[23:27]
*	assbot gives voice to TheRealJohnGalt	[23:27]
BingoBoingo	!up alphonse23_	[23:27]
*	assbot gives voice to alphonse23_	[23:27]
BingoBoingo	!up Norbiss	[23:27]
*	assbot gives voice to Norbiss	[23:27]
BingoBoingo	!up raedah	[23:28]
*	assbot gives voice to raedah	[23:28]
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ben_vulpes	https://www.instagram.com/p/BBObFK5L0Gf/?taken-by=mediablackoutusa	[23:32]
assbot	Instagram ... ( http://bit.ly/1JT7E9J )	[23:32]
ben_vulpes	good evening, BingoBoingo	[23:32]
BingoBoingo	evening Mr. Fox	[23:32]
ben_vulpes	how was the 12/12	[23:35]
ben_vulpes	unrelated: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rent-damn-high-founder-endorses-trump-president-article-1.2514218?cid=bitly	[23:37]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/20AYgeW )	[23:37]
BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: Not bad. Quite a few visitors for a sunday meeting	[23:37]
ben_vulpes	you've been in it for what, 2 months at this point?	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	how many months is it for the special hat ?	[23:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78628 @ 0.00056701 = 44.5829 BTC [+] {3}	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes wut ?	[23:41]
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BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: 3	[23:42]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Better than hats, they do coins for 1, 3, 6, and then every year.	[23:42]
ben_vulpes	works if you work it	[23:42]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu wut?	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	no idea why i'm reading random blather about the human fund - money for people. or w/e	[23:44]
*	Norbiss has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[23:44]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all	[23:44]
ben_vulpes	trumpenreich 2016, duh	[23:44]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 368.95, vol: 4409.94441176 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 375.493, vol: 3441.25724 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 366.85, vol: 20204.78414813 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 369.0, vol: 0.03261465 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 375.360084, vol: 33446.40800000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 369.62307, vol: 241.10449841 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 381.111934904, vol: 33.66723239 \| Volume-weighted last (1 more message)	[23:44]
BingoBoingo	;;more	[23:44]
gribble	average: 372.107348189	[23:44]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all --currency eur	[23:44]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 340.09811, vol: 4409.94441176 \| BTC-E BTCEUR last: 345.15, vol: 45.68 \| CampBX BTCEUR last: 340.1442, vol: 0.03261465 \| BTCChina BTCEUR last: 346.283202, vol: 33447.39620000 \| Kraken BTCEUR last: 343.99974, vol: 2854.81219994 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCEUR last: 351.31999899, vol: 33.66723239 \| Volume-weighted last average: 345.457610149	[23:45]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all --currency jpy	[23:45]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCJPY last: 44751.79025, vol: 4417.71642254 \| BTC-E BTCJPY last: 45545.180845, vol: 3441.55924 \| CampBX BTCJPY last: 44757.855, vol: 0.03261465 \| BTCChina BTCJPY last: 45564.6627, vol: 33447.72720000 \| Kraken BTCJPY last: 44000.0, vol: 29.32626815 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCJPY last: 46224.9288671, vol: 33.66723239 \| Volume-weighted last average: 45475.6666147	[23:45]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all --currency rmb	[23:45]
gribble	BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2477.0, vol: 33448.04360000 \| Volume-weighted last average: 2477.0	[23:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76000 @ 0.00056629 = 43.038 BTC [-]	[23:45]
*	NewLiberty_ (~NewLibert@2602:30a:c060:8f09:d99e:4f54:21c6:3647) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:48]
*	BingoBoingo is now known as oglafbot	[23:48]
oglafbot	http://oglaf.com/perjury/	[23:49]
assbot	Hot Perjury ... ( http://bit.ly/20AYRgN )	[23:49]
*	oglafbot is now known as BingoBoingo	[23:49]
*	NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[23:51]
*	assbot removes voice from TheRealJohnGalt	[23:57]
*	assbot removes voice from alphonse23_	[23:58]
*	assbot removes voice from raedah	[23:58]
phf	a curio for the lisp aficionados http://mumble.net/~jar/pseudoscheme/ an implementation of scheme in common lisp forward ported from lisp machines. a precursor to scheme48, so gets a lot of things right	[23:58]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/20AZpTN )	[23:58]

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