Forum logs for 31 Aug 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [00:51]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: || || || [00:51]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014 [00:51]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass. [00:51]
* assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu [00:51]
Apocalyptic asciilifeform, on a related note what's your opinion about 'KGB: the Inside Story' by Christopher Andrew ? [00:52]
asciilifeform Apocalyptic: he printed a large number of variations on 'sword & shield', most repeat themselves in a genuinely dreary way [00:53]
mircea_popescu this "'KGB: the Inside Story' by Christopher Andrew" string reminds me of the "stop sending niggers then" joke. [00:53]
asciilifeform Apocalyptic: much of the material stolen by mitrokhin was either boring, or too juicy to print [00:53]
mircea_popescu Apocalyptic do you know it ? [00:54]
asciilifeform everybody knows that one. [00:54]
Apocalyptic this looks like it was printed first, allegedly in 1990 [00:54]
Apocalyptic mircea, I'm asking whether it's worth a read, I don't have nor know it [00:55]
mircea_popescu i meant the joke [00:55]
Apocalyptic I don't [00:56]
mircea_popescu cia sends mole to inflitrate kgb. this is apparently successful, but nothing of value is ever obtained. [00:56]
mircea_popescu cia sends replacement mole. this also is apparently successful... buit... again [00:57]
mircea_popescu by the 5th or so replacement there's a distinct impression with upper cia management that the soviets are like... sending complicated insider jokes over the mole wire. [00:57]
mircea_popescu finally a high level defector is taken into a manager's meeting, fed somon fume and asked politely [00:57]
mircea_popescu he confirms that yes they knew all about al of them, explains some of the insider jokes [00:57]
mircea_popescu "mr devektorovskyi, what are we to do then ?" [00:58]
mircea_popescu "i dunno... maybe stop sending niggers ?" [00:58]
mircea_popescu what the FUCK has some schmuck by the name cristopher to say about the inside of the kgb ? [00:58]
asciilifeform based on supposedly-actual story, where russians noticed that staples in certain passports failed to rust. [00:58]
mircea_popescu yea lol [00:59]
asciilifeform cristopher << brit. mitrokhin surrendered to the brits. [00:59]
mircea_popescu so ? [00:59]
asciilifeform muppet, who was given the job of cranking out a tabloid-grade book supposedly based on the 100kg or so of stolen paper. [01:00]
mircea_popescu "inside the genovese family, by derparian herparistarian." wtf already. no armenians in sicily. [01:00]
asciilifeform lol [01:00]
mircea_popescu anyway, one is well advised to evaluate his level of interest on such topics. if it's a passing casual worth 5k words then skimming one of these pulpy offerings is maybe fine. if serious enough to remember names, then probably skimming the original papers is a better bet [01:02]
mircea_popescu rather than reading the same "us girl next door in a sheet = roman matron" story re-written over and over 500 times. [01:02]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: very few of the original papers were ever made public as such [01:02]
asciilifeform and the authenticity of the ones that were - is, naturally, questionable. [01:03]
mircea_popescu srsly when i saw you discussing indexing and searching pdf documents i thought this is what it was for - all that crap is pdf-digitized. [01:03]
mircea_popescu outside of digging through secret service archives, why the fuck would anyone put up with pdf. [01:03]
asciilifeform some. of the purported crap. yes. [01:03]
asciilifeform russians, accustomed to carrying around terabytes of scanned w4r3z for a generation, prefer 'djvu' - for which there is really no substitute. [01:04]
decimation djvu is a pretty amazing 'paper' compression tool. proprietary "paperport" works very well too [01:05]
asciilifeform (fully documented format, originally, afaik, crapped out by 'bell labs') [01:05]
assbot AMAZING COMPANY! [01:05]
asciilifeform 'djvu', even on an aged box, scrolls so quickly one almost can believe he has a microfilm viewer. [01:06]
asciilifeform a fat book takes <5 MB typically. [01:06]
asciilifeform if you have an 'ocr' system, the format allows for an searchable text 'track.' [01:07]
decimation to be fair I think there are methods of using good compression with pdf too. My main point yesterday was about searching the text, for which pdfs are not necessary. after all, if you ocr it, then it ought to exist as a .txt file [01:07]
asciilifeform afaik patent trolls succeeded in more or less exterminating acceptable compression for scanned books. djvu was devised by folks who didn't care to comply. [01:09]
asciilifeform present-day ocr is notoriously inadequate for scanned historic documents, esp. of poor quality or non-latin scripts. [01:09]
asciilifeform plus one generally wants to keep the photos. [01:10]
mircea_popescu this would have been a perfect application for ai [01:10]
mircea_popescu "given this string and this set of photos, find the string likelies" [01:11]
asciilifeform ocr performed on 'djvu' document typically inserts an ascii text track, along with 'bounding boxes' internally [01:11]
asciilifeform so document becomes quasi-searchable while viewed in the customary way [01:11]
mircea_popescu sadly... no ai. [01:11]
decimation asciilifeform: yeah I agree, 'djvu' with a text-track would be a pretty good format [01:11]
mircea_popescu maybe with quantum computing. [01:11]
asciilifeform decimation: it's already in the standard [01:11]
asciilifeform modern 'neural network' ocr - at least for latin alphabet - is 99+% accurate. sadly this is not enough to dispense with the original images. [01:13]
mircea_popescu i meant "for any script" [01:13]
mircea_popescu it's MACHINE intelligence after all neh ? [01:13]
mircea_popescu this is where it should shine [01:13]
asciilifeform yes, we'd all like 'a pony.' [01:13]
mircea_popescu i'd like a fluffy one! :D [01:14]
fluffypony lol [01:14]
asciilifeform 'i even made a pony-monkey hybrid to please you! what's with all the screaming. you like monkeys, you like ponys. maybe i used too many monkeys... isn't it enough that i ruined a pony making a gift for you!' [01:14]
decimation asciilifeform: do you know of a reasonable gui tool to search and index djvu's with text? [01:15]
* mircea_popescu sayz sed! awk! then re-reads the gui part, ponders, gets depressed and leaves. [01:16]
Apocalyptic heh [01:16]
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ben_vulpes jurov: *shrug* [01:22]
ben_vulpes indexing the blockchain? sed and awk! [01:23]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what is the objection ? [01:23]
decimation mircea_popescu: sed, awk works fine if you want to search your entire corpus every time [01:23]
mircea_popescu and if you don't you can make them make an index file. [01:24]
ben_vulpes ain't none [01:24]
decimation this is true, seems like it should be a 'solved problem'. I think some implementations of 'hadoop' do exactly this [01:24]
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dignork decimation: Lucene probably [01:26]
mircea_popescu decimation i think the only reason it isn't a solved problem is this sort of argument : ie "usability". once you add that fuzzy requirement smart people get bored and leave, [01:27]
mircea_popescu leaving the mess to be handled by the sort of people that make guis. [01:27]
decimation true. making a good gui is difficult and thankless work [01:27]
mircea_popescu no, it is impossible and thankless work. difficult is one thing. [01:28]
mircea_popescu but a good gui is a provab le impossibility. "make me a very hot woman that still wants to be my girlfriend instead of say that guy's" [01:28]
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decimation jurov: agreed. I'm always having to consult find, grep, xargs, etc man pages [01:36]
mircea_popescu well depends how much thought you put into it [01:37]
mircea_popescu i don't readily remember the names of all the women i've been with either. [01:37]
mircea_popescu on the upside, once you get it done you can forget about it. [01:38]
decimation heh yeah, which results in sites like this: [01:40]
mircea_popescu "Create a random file of a certain, and display progress along the way." [01:40]
mircea_popescu SYNTAX ERROR! [01:40]
mircea_popescu MISSING PARAMETER AFTER "certain". please read your commandlinefu documentation and try again!!11 [01:41]
mircea_popescu and who the hell has cowsay installed omg. [01:42]
Apocalyptic "Random data is generated by encrypting /dev/zero" // a curious way to generate random data [01:43]
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mircea_popescu "random" [01:46]
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asciilifeform 'error - not a typewriter' << actual [01:48]
jurov lp0 on fire [01:48]
mircea_popescu not a bad idea jurov [01:48]
asciilifeform lp0 on fire << saw this alive [01:48]
asciilifeform (not the message. the condition.) [01:49]
asciilifeform mis-spent youth. [01:49]
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asciilifeform 'usability' << is not necessarily a nonsense word. consider the difference between the linux and bsd userland utils [01:53]
asciilifeform in the latter, considerably greater consistency of flags [01:53]
asciilifeform but yes, normally when people whine about 'usability,' they want - pony. [01:55]
asciilifeform i.e., instrument with user interface of a pencil, but somehow not the functionality of pencil. [01:56]
asciilifeform 'the only 'intuitive' interface is the tit - everything after that is learned.' [01:56]
mircea_popescu ^ [01:57]
mircea_popescu (the cunt also) [01:57]
mircea_popescu oddly enough. [01:57]
asciilifeform on which end. [01:57]
mircea_popescu on both ends. [01:57]
mircea_popescu dealing with the fallout is learned, but using the things is innate. [01:57]
mircea_popescu and for that matter, pencils are horribly unintuitive interfaces. think of all the great drawing in the world, and the poor user buying a pencil in the shop will draw what ? a cat ? [01:59]
mircea_popescu this old world sort of nonsense can not endure my friends! i am making a company that will revolutionize drawing! [01:59]
asciilifeform -- said herr daguerre [01:59]
mircea_popescu shit. [02:00]
mircea_popescu i just walked into that didn't . [02:00]
asciilifeform did. lol [02:00]
mircea_popescu +i [02:00]
* asciilifeform always found it interesting that people whine if they try to use his computer, but never think to borrow eyeglasses and then complain [02:02]
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asciilifeform obligatory: [02:03]
asciilifeform [02:03]
assbot Loper OS » Programmer’s Editors, Illustrated. [02:03]
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asciilifeform (moral, for the thick, is that an equivalent of the profession 'optician' does not yet exist for these machines) [02:04]
asciilifeform and may not ever exist. [02:04]
mircea_popescu dude you and your vi hate. [02:08]
mircea_popescu but actually... i find myself using nano a lot moar these days [02:08]
decimation I use nano when emacs is too heavy-handed [02:11]
mircea_popescu so mebbe there's some meat to the assertion, vi inhabits a middle that doesnt really exist [02:12]
penguirker New blog post: [02:14]
mod6 <3 vi/m [02:15]
cazalla oh boy [02:20]
cazalla sounds like decentralised swatting [02:23]
decimation mircea_popescu: yeah your post reminds me of Mr. Yarvin's point about insulting the "protected class". [02:23]
mircea_popescu cazalla quite. costs like a bitcoin to do, too. [02:23]
decimation one wonders about the total sum of $ that usg has spent just this year searching enemies of the people [02:24]
mircea_popescu i have a glass table and an optic mouse. [02:24]
mircea_popescu fucking hell. [02:24]
mircea_popescu [02:34]
assbot Los del Rio - Macarena (Original Video) [HD] - YouTube [02:34]
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cazalla i wonder what the chicks in that music video look like now [02:36]
mircea_popescu fifty year olds. [02:36]
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cazalla !s newegg [02:47]
assbot 22 results for 'newegg' : [02:47]
cazalla [02:48]
assbot Logged on 15-07-2014 16:54:16; ThickAsThieves: even newegg is bullish [02:48]
cazalla would it be a safe bet the reason newegg and other sites offer a discount when using bitcoin is that it's easy means of coin for usg? they can print as much $ to give discounts and the coin flows from customers -> newegg -> bitpay -> usg? [02:50]
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The20YearIRCloud [02:58]
assbot The Good, The Bad and The Ugly on Galt's Gulch Chile [02:58]
The20YearIRCloud so mr berwick knew problems last year and didnt do anything? [02:58]
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thestringpuller i am about to go into a panel on bitcoin lol [03:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00085109 = 5.447 BTC [-] [03:07]
thestringpuller cazalla: this is great point [03:08]
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mircea_popescu lawl [03:16]
assbot #bitcoin-assets bash [03:16]
decimation lol The20YearIRCloud that's an amusing post [03:17]
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mircea_popescu uomoletale ahajhajaja [03:19]
mircea_popescu !up blast [03:19]
-assbot- You voiced blast for 30 minutes. [03:19]
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blast huzza [03:19]
mircea_popescu The20YearIRCloud i don't get what this "let's all go huddle together" thing is supposed to do. [03:19]
mircea_popescu seems of the ilk of "island of women" and "tower of song", ie, cheap notional filler for "virtual spaces" a la video games [03:20]
blast but the island of woman is real, except its a mountain, in brazil ;D [03:20]
mircea_popescu ;;google tvtropes planet of hats [03:20]
gribble Main/Planet of Hats - Television Tropes & Idioms - TV Tropes: ; Webcomic/Planet of Hats - Television Tropes & Idioms - TV Tropes: ; Main/Planet of Copyhats - Television Tropes & Idioms - TV Tropes: [03:20]
mircea_popescu blast romania has this too. it's called gaina, which is how you say hen, and it's the place surpluss women were taken by their tribe for to sell over to another tribe for > 5k years. [03:21]
penguirker New blog post: [03:21]
mircea_popescu The20YearIRCloud: There's a town close to me that once every year auctions off 250-350 safe deposit box contents, you bid per box and don't know what is in them. All are seized from people who either didn't pay up or forgot about em << isn't there a reality show predicated on this process ? [03:23]
mircea_popescu decimation lmao at those terms. so... why get it then ? [03:24]
asciilifeform i thought those go to the basement of 'the fed' in wash., d.c. [03:24]
asciilifeform it is said to contain a great many. [03:25]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re: 'swat' post: am i the only one who instantly thought of this: [03:26]
mircea_popescu lol [03:26]
mircea_popescu someone should morph to the lemons kissing. [03:27]
mircea_popescu as a gif. enough nightmare fuel there for a week [03:27]
thestringpuller theu are talking aboit the collapse of mtgox [03:28]
thestringpuller i will be referwncing trilema [03:28]
thestringpuller wow lag beyond trade engine lag [03:28]
mircea_popescu decimation: asciilifeform: unfortunately if the "from whom" is usg in its many forms, the answer is largely: nowhere << bs lol. [03:28]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'usg' in that context also includes all 'decay daughters' thereof [03:29]
asciilifeform i.e., armed thugs turned free-agent when the whole thing finally blows [03:29]
mircea_popescu sure. [03:29]
mircea_popescu even so. [03:29]
asciilifeform in my experience, folks preoccupied with hidey-holes tend to neglect the question of where they intend to hide... their arse [03:30]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00085067 = 18.1193 BTC [-] {2} [03:31]
mircea_popescu meanwhile back at reality ranch, obtaining superior fire power in a limited geographical area is a trivial task. [03:31]
mircea_popescu the usg collapsing doesn't make it harder. [03:31]
asciilifeform while supplies last. [03:31]
mircea_popescu for everyone. this is not a valid objection any more than saying "for as long as gravity is still in force" [03:32]
asciilifeform and if it becomes generally known that, e.g., a Castle Moldenstein, contains a bunker full of goodies - there is the incentive for all-comers to soften the target. [03:32]
asciilifeform the best castle wall is - distance. works even on nukes. [03:33]
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mircea_popescu it's not as simple as that. [03:35]
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mircea_popescu take any stirkingly beautiful woman walking into a bar. is she more likely or less likely to be hit on ? [03:36]
asciilifeform point, yes [03:36]
mircea_popescu any supermodel material chick will tell you nobody dares, on the assumption. [03:36]
mircea_popescu so, some may try to soften the target, which allows the target to populate the road towards it with heads on pikes. [03:36]
mircea_popescu which is the point of a "justice system" in the first place. [03:36]
mircea_popescu overall, these would be "softeners" work as hardeners and are quite useful. [03:37]
asciilifeform there are folks (in usa) working on this variant as we speak. the ones that succeed and aren't provocateur shills - we'll know because none of them are on the net. [03:37]
mircea_popescu and which is why it's so important to get the message loud and clear to any bureaucrat anywhere, that if it comes to war, and we win, he will hang. [03:38]
mircea_popescu no questions asked, and his children will be raped for the public record. [03:38]
asciilifeform if this happens - it'll be a historic first, afaik. [03:38]
asciilifeform ussr, for instance, did no such thing when germany lost. [03:38]
mircea_popescu ussr isn't remembered for having been led by the smartest people ever. [03:39]
asciilifeform how does one say 'приспособленец' in english ? [03:39]
asciilifeform that's who most of the muppets in question are [03:39]
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mircea_popescu but yes, the "no historical precedent" is what the bureaucrat instinctively answers [03:40]
mircea_popescu it was on display earlier in this very chan. [03:40]
asciilifeform naturally. [03:40]
mircea_popescu here's a thought : everything that has historical precendent now didn't originally. [03:40]
asciilifeform led by the smartest people ever << aye. witness that there are 'ukrainians' alive. [03:40]
mircea_popescu on the strenght of the zero one infinity rule alone, and of the banal observation that bitcoin also has no historical precendent, it seems... unwise to bet that 1 is the lucky number. [03:41]
mircea_popescu infinity seems infinitely more likely. [03:41]
asciilifeform inventions - happen. [03:41]
asciilifeform seems like we've this one nailed down. now, implementation... 'exercise for alert reader.' [03:42]
[]bot Bet created: "BTC tops all time high before Christmas" [03:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform it will probably come down to "you're not in the wot, and so therefore may not claim to own property or pretend to sue anyone" [03:43]
mircea_popescu problem solved. [03:43]
mircea_popescu "your negative rating in the wot means you can be killed by anyone and nobody'll care or do anything about it" [03:44]
mircea_popescu now try and argue why it's not really fair that you're negrated because some major players didn't like your early anti-bitcoin involvement. [03:45]
mircea_popescu xmj experienced live a tiny case study of this general principle, originally. [03:45]
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[]bot Bet placed: 3.35069497 BTC for No on "BTC tops all time high before Christmas" Odds: 1(Y):99(N) by coin, 1(Y):99(N) by weight. Total bet: 3.45069497 BTC. Current weight: 99,995. [03:51]
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[]bot Bet created: "Bitcoin to drop under $350 before November" [04:04]
asciilifeform killed by anyone << aha - 'homo sacer' [04:06]
[]bot Bet created: "Any DERP to bite it" [04:06]
mircea_popescu decimation: The20YearIRCloud: When I say "allodial title" I mean something like having the right to arrest anyone - including government employees - on your property << that';s maybe going a little far. but the right to quash any action of anyone involving that land is germane. [04:07]
mircea_popescu (you wouldn't be able to arrest anyone, but you would be able to void any application for a warrant) [04:07]
[]bot Bet created: "20% difficulty increase before 2015" [04:07]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: very few physical objects are worth the cost of raising an army to keep arbitrarily large horde of orcs away << this argument is flawed in the following way : for he who is repulsed by war, this holds true. for he who however enjoys war, no payment is necessary. [04:08]
mircea_popescu the relevant quote is in : [04:08]
assbot A very unfair perspective. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [04:08]
asciilifeform if like war - straight to war. [04:08]
mircea_popescu There isn’t, nor is there going to be a way, manner, instrument or device through which to protect the passive from the active. If you’re not prepared and absolutely willing to spend any amount of time up to the entire rest of your life seeking out and butchering leeches with only the satifaction of well applied, excruciating cruelty as your reward, you’re not made for this world and you won’t long have a place [04:08]
mircea_popescu in it. This can’t be delegated, it’s a personal thing. Like citizenship. Like nationality. The only nation immune to the fate of Rhodesia is a nation of that kind of people, living in that kind of world. [04:08]
mircea_popescu and it links quite well into "what would the devil have to pay you for you to love him". [04:09]
mircea_popescu if you don't like living, you can't be paid to live. [04:09]
mircea_popescu if you like living, pay is not really a relevant consideration. [04:09]
asciilifeform but notice that active players in a war rarely occupy themselves with hiding valuables [04:09]
mircea_popescu quite. [04:09]
mircea_popescu because the fetish of value is not value [04:09]
mircea_popescu and people who like to live have enough sense to understand this difference. [04:09]
asciilifeform hold territory - sure. impale enemies - yes. bury treasure - why ? [04:09]
asciilifeform hence the sea capsule example. for some classes of object (nuke?) this might be cost-effective storage. [04:10]
asciilifeform (free up the men normally guarding for other pursuits; replace with king neptune, who can't be bribed and doesn't sleep) [04:11]
mircea_popescu kinda what the nuclear subs are anyway. [04:11]
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asciilifeform yes. but those have engines, men, cost more. [04:12]
asciilifeform sea capsule is just a gedankenexperiment (though, i'm told, u.s. navy has insisted on actually trying.) i'm not altogether convinced that, properly carried out, it is cheaper than 'graveyard orbit' [04:13]
mircea_popescu not easy evaluating what such things cost. [04:24]
[]bot Bet placed: 2.5 BTC for No on "20% difficulty increase before 2015" Odds: 2(Y):98(N) by coin, 2(Y):98(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.6 BTC. Current weight: 99,988. [04:24]
decimation re: allodial title: I suppose with reference to how it was practiced in medieval England, the king's agents could be on your property on business which has the mutual consent of the king and his lords [04:25]
asciilifeform i did tally up the cost, but the first anything naturally - expensive. [04:25]
decimation re:safe deposit box, my understanding is that these are the terms all banks in the us give for such things [04:25]
asciilifeform drowning a box of strange in the atlantic is a considerably quieter operation than launching a rocket, however. so perhaps it wins. [04:25]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6334 @ 0.0008534 = 5.4054 BTC [+] [04:25]
mircea_popescu decimation it's complicated, but in general property is the bane of human existence, so any absolute property has the potential to be absolutely murderous. [04:25]
mircea_popescu (look at what happened when people thought the church is a people, started donating a little to it and inadvertently created the largest landholder because unlike them, thge church didn;t die regularly) [04:26]
decimation I'm thinking of the mongols' advantage over the static empires of the east [04:26]
asciilifeform decimation: the point of the bank box story is that it was entirely unclear to me wtf is the very point of such a thing, given the caveats [04:26]
decimation asciilifeform: yeah I think the main point is that you might store papers and things that would be moderately annoying to replace in case of fire [04:27]
decimation certainly nothing of 'value' [04:27]
asciilifeform decimation: esp. since the one and only event that could reasonably be insured against - contents present at logged date N and absent on opening N+k - wasn't. [04:27]
decimation well I think those terms are 'aspirational' - it goes to the arbitration conversation from a few weeks ago. everyone wants a click-wrap eula that holds them immune from any liability [04:28]
asciilifeform implication, to me, was - if you're happy with the box, take your goodies and post them straight to the enemy - at least then you'll know where they are. [04:29]
decimation heh yeah agreed, especially if the 'value' of those items was simply the information on the documents [04:30]
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decimation re: gult's gulch << I find it amusing that folks who supposedly value 'self-reliance' and 'liberty' are unable to actually fly to chile and buy some land for themselves, it can't be that hard for a person with means & brains [04:31]
asciilifeform decimation: see mircea_popescu's point earlier [04:32]
asciilifeform decimation: in usa, people have contracted the disease of thinking that money can substitute for everything, including brain and balls [04:32]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: yeah I think the main point is that you might store papers and things that would be moderately annoying to replace in case of fire << divorce. [04:32]
asciilifeform divorce << probably the worst possible use of a bank box in usa. other tidbit in the contract was that the bank will immediately impound any box against whose owner there are civil proceedings [04:33]
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decimation in which case the courts will hand whatever valubles to the woman, 'to support the children' [04:33]
mircea_popescu decimation: in usa, people have contracted the disease of thinking that money can substitute for everything, including brain and balls << well their government kinda depends on this principle, so if it';s good enough for the king... [04:33]
mircea_popescu this is what fucking moral hazard means, incidentally. [04:33]
asciilifeform i can hardly picture a dumber hiding place then a container in a public place with your name on it. [04:34]
mircea_popescu ok, so no divorce, no flood [04:34]
mircea_popescu fire seems the only reason left :p [04:34]
asciilifeform fire was also excluded. [04:35]
asciilifeform 0 liability for bank. [04:35]
mircea_popescu seeing how supermarkets also offer lockable containers on the same premise as banks do [04:36]
mircea_popescu it seems to me it's time to go down on sam's club for acting like a bank w/o a license. [04:36]
asciilifeform upon reading of that contract, i came to inescapable conclusion that the box thing is an active chump-magnet rather than simply a poor deal. [04:37]
mircea_popescu basically, it's the living wage embodied. [04:38]
mircea_popescu everyone wants to be paid a rent for existing [04:38]
mircea_popescu banks not exluded. [04:38]
The20YearIRCloud safe deposit boxes? [04:38]
asciilifeform The20YearIRCloud: them. [04:39]
The20YearIRCloud Around here, most use coffee cans buried. Now you can go to a store and get a "underground safe" [04:39]
decimation let me look at my terms... yep, it excludes fire, explosion, intense heat, smoke, water (including fire suppression system) building collapse, terrorism, war, intentional destructive acts, or failures of electrical, mechanical, plumbing or structural systems, or for actions caused by any person [04:39]
asciilifeform The20YearIRCloud: field day for the folks with ground-penetrating radar. [04:39]
asciilifeform (not to be confused with 'mine detector' that every kid owns) [04:39]
asciilifeform decimation: my particular one even mentioned failure of the vault locks. [04:40]
mircea_popescu lol [04:40]
mircea_popescu hahaahah [04:40]
mircea_popescu dudes you gotta get out of the sticks, srsly. [04:40]
The20YearIRCloud I keep looking for GPR so i can take it to properties/estates I buy out [04:41]
The20YearIRCloud Once in a while I get the chance to buy a un-touched estate - Kids have no interest or are out of state, a trustee locks the property up and you bid on the real estate + all contents [04:42]
asciilifeform get out of the sticks << all of us in the sticks - are there for reasons. [04:42]
asciilifeform just like the other wretches stuck therein [04:42]
decimation The20YearIRCloud: yeah that's probably not a bad idea, radar would also find unpleasant surprises that are buried [04:42]
The20YearIRCloud Such as? [04:42]
asciilifeform decimation: the instrument in question is no military secret of any kind. contact a firm that lays pipes. [04:43]
asciilifeform or - build own. [04:43]
mircea_popescu Such as? << dead hookers, for one. [04:43]
The20YearIRCloud I don't know that they can be built, the costs were exorbant for non-military types [04:43]
asciilifeform incidentally, if burial is recent, a searcher can use 'nazi method' [04:44]
The20YearIRCloud and the thing is, for the most part the world is a big big place and GPR is very limited in what it can do [04:44]
asciilifeform that is, pour water, see how quickly it absorbs [04:44]
decimation The20YearIRCloud: barrels of toxic waste? [04:44]
The20YearIRCloud Or mason jars full of old coins :D [04:44]
mircea_popescu The20YearIRCloud here's an exercise for you. today you find in a yard 1k coins of 10 grams each, minted 1750. [04:45]
asciilifeform when digging my garden (moved out of microscopic flat in late may, into a rented house) i found intact glass bottles, with caps on. appear to contain decades-old 'coca cola.' [04:45]
mircea_popescu how much is this find worth in dollars ? [04:45]
mircea_popescu (gold coins, i mean) [04:46]
The20YearIRCloud One guy found around $200k in his back yard in my area [04:46]
decimation there was this story last year: [04:46]
asciilifeform how much he kept from the 200 ? [04:46]
assbot Rare gold coins buried in California hit market; one fetches $15,000 - LA Times [04:46]
The20YearIRCloud Depends on who minted them and the composition :D [04:46]
asciilifeform how much the crown took; how much - auctioneers [04:46]
The20YearIRCloud Even in the mid 1700s the quality of gold coins ranged from 50% to 92.5% [04:47]
The20YearIRCloud $15k isn't much for a 'rare gold coin' [04:47]
mircea_popescu The20YearIRCloud how much did he get to buy beer for ? [04:47]
asciilifeform plus such finds are generally sold for numismatic value, and not as bullion [04:47]
asciilifeform so anyone's guess [04:47]
decimation The20YearIRCloud: that was one coin out of 1400 [04:47]
mircea_popescu (in general your take is about the same as if publishing a book : about 5 to 10% after govt, agent, editor etc is done raping you) [04:47]
The20YearIRCloud But usually the sensationalist media takes the biggest/best one to start it off with [04:47]
decimation :The so-called Saddle Ridge Hoard, made up of denominations of $5, $10 and $20, could bring in $10 million when the sale is all said and done, with several pieces expected to command prices as high as $1 million, experts say." [04:47]
The20YearIRCloud heck we had a local auctioneer do one guy's coin collection, the whole collection fit on a few small tables and sold for $350k [04:48]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and this isn't even considering the variant with spurious lawsuits [04:48]
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mircea_popescu indeed. [04:48]
decimation one wonders about the potential 'laundry' being done off of such a rich stash [04:48]
asciilifeform for instance, IANAL, but i can easily picture, e.g, a landlord, arguing 'mineral rights' on the coins. [04:48]
asciilifeform or - to make life more interesting - let's say that you find a sealed crate of kalashes, in cosmoline, rather than coins. [04:49]
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decimation or barrels of toxic waste [04:49]
asciilifeform or 'mustard gas' - as happened in early 2000s near an embassy in d.c. [04:50]
decimation heh didn't hear about that til now [04:50]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform ah that's where saddam was keeping his chem weapons ? [04:50]
asciilifeform worth what? plenty. liquidate it? more likely, your organs will be sold to pay for it carted away [04:50]
mircea_popescu o wait, it wasn't him. it was bush that hung for this [04:51]
asciilifeform lol [04:51]
The20YearIRCloud If I find a box of AKs here in the US there's nothing to do but leap for joy [04:51]
decimation "Army officials say the canisters, if they exist, do not pose a threat to the affluent Spring Valley neighborhood as long as they remain undisturbed." << "it's okay for you" [04:51]
asciilifeform The20YearIRCloud: afaik+ianal - it depends where in usa. [04:51]
The20YearIRCloud Theoretically it'd be possible to sell them in any state if you take the right steps [04:52]
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The20YearIRCloud if they're real-deal AKs you just demill the reciever, then the rest can be sold [04:52]
asciilifeform if they're the real thing (full auto) - you're probably bankrupt just staying out of court [04:52]
asciilifeform sold as scrap, yes. [04:52]
The20YearIRCloud if they're semi autos, they can be sold to out of state [04:52]
The20YearIRCloud Scrap = Worth $300-$3000 depending on make [04:52]
asciilifeform to go back to the example with coins - you're probably safe if you melt them down and sell by gram [04:53]
decimation start stashing 7.62 ammo and raise army [04:53]
The20YearIRCloud The serial numbered portion is the only part essentially that's illegal [04:53]
asciilifeform but this destroys most of the value of the find [04:53]
asciilifeform so we're no longer answering the question of what the find per se is worth, in that case. [04:53]
The20YearIRCloud With regards to coins, you only need to avoid the very, very limited types that are assumed to be stolen from the mint [04:53]
asciilifeform eventually, the soviet denouement is that all precious metal is presumed 'stolen from mint.' [04:54]
The20YearIRCloud Other than that, it's pretty easy to stay quiet, and slowly sell off the horde without signfiicant attention [04:54]
asciilifeform other interesting thing about treasure is that, afaik, your tax liability officially begins when the shovel opens the box [04:55]
asciilifeform see the many stories of lotto winners who take home mazeratis and then go bankrupt [04:55]
decimation asciilifeform: brings to mind the play quoted by Mr. Yarvin where the kulak is found guilty of hording foreign currency in basement [04:55]
asciilifeform khruschev turned this into a hanging offense. retroactively. [04:56]
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asciilifeform (gold, rather than foreign currency, in that case, but applied across the board) [04:56]
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The20YearIRCloud In the us , gold hording could be jailable, but silver hording was encouraged [04:58]
The20YearIRCloud speaking of the 30s-50s [04:58]
asciilifeform silver, at the time, (and largely still today) being primarily an industrial metal - the supply was already safely corralled. [04:58]
decimation yeah back in the early 1900's the whole idea of the 'silver dollar' was the precursor to the modern bezzle [04:59]
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The20YearIRCloud Us silver coin production was astronomical [04:59]
decimation after 'backing' your currency with relatively worthless metal, the next logical step being to 'back' it with nothing it all [05:00]
asciilifeform they occasionally turn up in loose change even now. [05:00]
decimation silver makes excellent electrical conductors though. [05:00]
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asciilifeform decimation: understand why it is rarely used as such. [05:01]
The20YearIRCloud Right now it's about 1:10,000 in dimes, and about 1:25,000 in quarters [05:01]
asciilifeform (while gold is king in all fine electronics) [05:01]
The20YearIRCloud and around 1:1,000 from halves [05:01]
asciilifeform oxidation. [05:01]
decimation asciilifeform: yeah oxidation, terrible contacts [05:01]
decimation gold however... [05:01]
decimation gold actually has worse conductance than copper, but it doesn't oxidize [05:02]
asciilifeform usually the absolute conductivity isn't critical. resistance to corrosion and heat conductivity - is. [05:03]
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asciilifeform copper plated with gold is more or less 'best of worlds' [05:03]
The20YearIRCloud Well, considering how little of the connection is used for the gold, it makes plenty of sense [05:04]
decimation ie your ENIG boards [05:04]
The20YearIRCloud gold connectors are usually large, so there's more conductivity (due to lower resistence) [05:04]
asciilifeform and everybody's. [05:04]
The20YearIRCloud Although theoretically silver wire with gold connectors would be the bee's knees [05:05]
decimation gold is also used exclusively to connect pins to chip dies if I recall correctly [05:05]
The20YearIRCloud That's also true [05:05]
asciilifeform yes [05:05]
asciilifeform gold also solders beautifully, because the coating remains smooth [05:05]
The20YearIRCloud This is of course until we discover room-temperature superconductors, then it's all off [05:05]
The20YearIRCloud The little bit of silver soldering I've done has been quite smooth too [05:05]
asciilifeform room-temperature superconductors << unless we all perish in laser pistol duels. [05:05]
The20YearIRCloud I just want my emdrive hovercar and hoverbike [05:06]
decimation The20YearIRCloud: doubtful. in most circuitry heat loss in conductors isn't terribly critical, and it's hard to imagine said superconductors would be better/cheaper to fabricate than the metals we are discussing [05:06]
The20YearIRCloud Most of the data I'm seeing seems to support that once we reach that point, everyone gets their own airship [05:06]
The20YearIRCloud I'm sure that's right, but i can dream [05:06]
asciilifeform heat loss in conductors isn't terribly critical << consider why virtually all present-day applications of low temperature superconductors is in high-strength magnets. [05:07]
asciilifeform because there - yes, critical. [05:07]
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asciilifeform room temperature supercon is a box of surprises. [05:07]
asciilifeform e.g., home 'mri' scanner plus some fairly simple image processing. [05:07]
asciilifeform result - no rich man need die from most cancers. [05:08]
decimation I think there are some cold superconductors used in new york to move lots of electricity through tight spaces too: [05:08]
assbot Superconductors Enter Commercial Utility Service - IEEE Spectrum [05:08]
asciilifeform don't shoot a man with lead and gunpowder, shoot him with pocket railgun on watch battery - classier. [05:08]
The20YearIRCloud we' [05:09]
asciilifeform (bonus: shoot with the battery) [05:09]
The20YearIRCloud We have been very much on the upswing concerning superconductors. 50 years ago you had to be near absolute zero, now you can do it at like -200c [05:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00085789 = 6.4342 BTC [+] [05:09]
asciilifeform al schwarts published a possible recipe for room temperature supercon - afaik, it was ignored. [05:09]
asciilifeform (or in use by chicoms - like his certain other creations) [05:10]
asciilifeform (which others? [05:10]
asciilifeform !s eotvos [05:10]
assbot 2 results for 'eotvos' : [05:11]
asciilifeform ) [05:11]
The20YearIRCloud is he the emdrive guy? [05:11]
asciilifeform no. [05:11]
asciilifeform his products - work. [05:11]
The20YearIRCloud Emdrive seems to work too [05:11]
asciilifeform in the sense that podkletnov's drive 'worked.' [05:11]
asciilifeform (emdrive, not schwartz) [05:12]
The20YearIRCloud It's going to JPL for testing, which is a pretty darn good sign as to it working [05:12]
asciilifeform as did podkletnov's, afaik. [05:12]
The20YearIRCloud And from the papers I've seen, it doesn't seem to be signfiicantly more different than the theory behind VASMIR, and NASA was all over that 15 years ago [05:13]
asciilifeform nasa is happy to fund every perpetual-motion crank on the planet - but if you're an industrial organic chemist with a history of rocking the boat - forget it. [05:13]
asciilifeform vasmir doesn't violate newton's 3rd. [05:14]
The20YearIRCloud neither does the emdrive [05:14]
asciilifeform if you ask any physics crank, his machines never violate physical law [05:14]
The20YearIRCloud and in the case of emdrive as well, it's signfiicantly more efficient than ion drives, but not absurdly so [05:14]
asciilifeform there's always an 'imaginary particle' involved [05:14]
The20YearIRCloud And it, just like ion drives, both would benefit amazingly well by room conducting superconductors [05:14]
assbot AMAZING COMPANY! [05:15]
The20YearIRCloud Like quantum entanglement? [05:15]
asciilifeform what classical law does it violate? [05:15]
asciilifeform understand, we'd all love a working perpetuum mobile or reactionless thruster. [05:16]
The20YearIRCloud I'd have to find the papers, but 30-40 years ago it was supposed to violate several principals [05:16]
asciilifeform but the folks involved with 'emdrive' have a rich history of fraud (usg and principals both) [05:17]
The20YearIRCloud And now, peer reviewed studies seem to come out every few months continaully supporting entanglement [05:17]
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decimation asciilifeform: it seems to me that an Eötvös balance would be pretty straightforward to build [05:17]
asciilifeform decimation: dig the log [05:17]
asciilifeform decimation: we came up with a setup that didn't require eotvos balance [05:17]
The20YearIRCloud And harold white is a con too? [05:18]
asciilifeform [05:18]
assbot Logged on 27-07-2014 19:05:02; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in 2010 i concocted a variant of the test that could be carried out for approx. 50k USD, from scratch. schwartz answered that, in his estimation, the test would work to spec, but results would not be accepted by the field unless carried out on one of the two existing eotvos balances. one - adelberger's, one - chicom. [05:18]
asciilifeform The20YearIRCloud: no need to be a con man in the usual sense to acquiesce to usg SOP. [05:19]
asciilifeform if you want to know what test - bring schwartz out of his hidey hole, wherever it is, and ask him. he enjoys explaining it, me - it just depresses [05:20]
decimation But according to wikipedia, it appears that the Eötvös balance is some balls, a rod, some string, and some mirrors [05:21]
asciilifeform if you want the needed accuracy - it's rather more complicated. [05:21]
decimation okay that makes sense [05:21]
asciilifeform (atmosphere of controlled temperature, pressure - and, more importantly, provenance) [05:21]
asciilifeform concept of 'provenance' is key here [05:21]
asciilifeform i recall mircea_popescu even used this tale as an example in an essay [05:21]
decimation as in, ensuring that all of the masses can be traced to some standard, etc? [05:22]
asciilifeform not only standard, but as agreed upon by all pertinent professionals [05:22]
asciilifeform including the set that want schwartz to die in a fire [05:22]
asciilifeform (he nearly managed it once) [05:22]
asciilifeform (30+% 3rd deg. burns) [05:23]
decimation wow, that sucks. metrology is it's own weird little world [05:23]
asciilifeform if i were to sell a few extra organs, i could run the 50k variant of the experiment. and i'd go to my grave knowing that equivalence principle can be violated. but that'd be all. [05:23]
asciilifeform it won't: 'count.' [05:24]
decimation I called up NIST a few weeks ago, asked them how much it would cost to measure the phase noise of an oscillator. They said it would only cost their time, which would come to about $10k! for a morning session [05:24]
asciilifeform schwartz is one of the very few people i know of whose problem cannot be solved with money per se. [05:24]
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asciilifeform he could, potentially, upgrade to rich pariah instead of modestly wealthy pariah [05:25]
asciilifeform but that'd be it. [05:25]
decimation well, mircea's theory is that musical tastes randomly change with time & entropy, the same is true for academic fashions [05:26]
asciilifeform decimation: there's also other factors. [05:27]
decimation one wonders which forgotten scientist will be recorded by history while official science is resigned to the dustbin [05:27]
asciilifeform decimation: adelberger, for example, would have to perform seppuku - and all of his students, and their students [05:27]
asciilifeform (if schwartz were to be permitted to carry out his experiment, and obtained a positive result) [05:28]
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asciilifeform understand that the effect in question, even if it turns out to work as herr schwartz predicted, doesn't yield an 'antigravity jetpack' [05:29]
asciilifeform it exists - if exists - somewhere after the 8th decimal. [05:29]
asciilifeform but to even begin the kind of work it would take to 'technologize', is an investment that no one would remotely contemplate without the kind of proof that can only be obtained after his enemies were to give in. [05:30]
decimation yeah but it would have implications for relativity theory apparently [05:30]
asciilifeform or a few centuries after we've all died. [05:30]
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decimation 'how much would you have to pay your enemies not to crush you in your moment of need' [05:30]
asciilifeform this, as i understand, is why schwartz never made any attempt to raise funding [05:31]
asciilifeform he's a clever enough fellow to understand that this would cement his already unenviable position [05:31]
asciilifeform regardless of the outcome of the experiment, he'd end up seen just like the fellow who opened the 'esp instutute' [05:32]
asciilifeform *institute [05:32]
asciilifeform you can't pay your enemies to die. [05:33]
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asciilifeform if ussr were alive, perhaps he'd have defected. [05:33]
asciilifeform but i suspect he'd sooner fellate his 'magnum.' [05:33]
asciilifeform but this is the very problem that multiple kingdoms one can defect to is the only known solution. [05:34]
asciilifeform see galileo & florence. [05:34]
asciilifeform but they have to be actual sovereign kingdoms - not muppet shows. [05:34]
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asciilifeform and - they have to give a damn. [05:35]
decimation yeah this connects with our discussion the other day about the collapse of the ussr being terrible for usg [05:36]
asciilifeform if i were, e.g, mircea_popescu, and gave a damn, i'd offer schwartz xxxx btc. half to show up here, half after he explains himself. [05:36]
asciilifeform but poor s. apparently went 'full perelman mode' and doesn't write back any more. [05:37]
asciilifeform (how to know that schwartz (or taleb, or...) collects 'prize' rather than usg stooge with a shannonizer and irc connection - exercise for alert reader.) [05:37]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29650 @ 0.00085641 = 25.3926 BTC [-] {2} [05:38]
asciilifeform the most i can offer to interested readers is repeat of mircea_popescu's algorithm 'have sex - with people, do business - with keys.' [05:38]
decimation “I don't even have an E-mail address. I have reached an age where my main purpose is not to receive messages,” Eco said at a party in his honor at the University Club of Chicago. [05:38]
decimation [05:38]
assbot Of Eco And E-mail - The New Yorker [05:38]
asciilifeform this is called perelman mode. [05:38]
asciilifeform partial, if you like. full perelman is when you haven't a post address either. [05:39]
asciilifeform !s perelman [05:39]
assbot 3 results for 'perelman' : [05:39]
decimation perelman turned down the fields medal right? [05:39]
asciilifeform not only. [05:39]
asciilifeform he also turned down, if i recall, government pensions, interviews with journawhores, all of it. [05:40]
asciilifeform lives somewhere in russian north, among the trees. [05:40]
asciilifeform go find him. [05:40]
decimation probably with these folks: [05:40]
assbot Happy People: A Year in the Taiga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [05:40]
asciilifeform if he's feeling charitable, he might leave archaeologists a box of notebooks the ants won't eat. [05:41]
asciilifeform (as, e.g, k. f. gauss did) [05:41]
asciilifeform for all we know - perelman was eaten by local fauna, or fellated his nagant [05:42]
asciilifeform but once in a while you hear that some busybody found him and told 'fuck off, can't answer for your safety if i see you again.' [05:43]
decimation it seems very few extreme math geniuses find this world a 'habitable' place [05:43]
asciilifeform perelman had the unfortunate combination of math and iron balls. he would not 'play ball'. [05:44]
The20YearIRCloud who is eco again? [05:44]
decimation another way of looking at it: he's decided to hold 'allodial title' over his mind, the only place that is really possible in this world for mere humans [05:44]
asciilifeform umberto eco. [05:44]
asciilifeform decimation: this. [05:44]
decimation he wrote 'the name of the rose' among other things, ascii quotes it from time to time [05:45]
The20YearIRCloud i've been off reading physics articles trying to grasp things and lost the conversation [05:45]
asciilifeform decimation: the only work of that man i found readable [05:45]
asciilifeform as i understand - he caught a memetic virus - 'postmodernism' - and might as well have contracted 'mad cow'. [05:46]
asciilifeform (eco, not perelman) [05:46]
asciilifeform same thing happened to russian mega-author v. pelevin [05:46]
asciilifeform the action of the 'virus' was evident in his early work, but it got worse. [05:47]
decimation it is probably terrible to become an object of some fad among elites today [05:47]
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asciilifeform decimation: eco, pelevin, others - were clever chaps; understood that if you suck cock, you become a cock-sucker, even if 'your heart isn't in it' at first [05:47]
asciilifeform schneier, i'm certain, understood [05:48]
asciilifeform can carry on the list, but why. [05:48]
asciilifeform we can all write the list. [05:48]
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decimation probably the only real defense is to go 'full perelman' [05:49]
asciilifeform less of a defense and more like slow-motion seppuku [05:49]
asciilifeform this, incidentally, is how science dies. [05:50]
The20YearIRCloud because of the gubberment? [05:50]
asciilifeform [05:50]
asciilifeform nah. [05:50]
assbot Becoming effete (Steven B. Harris) [05:50]
asciilifeform usg 'science' is - scar tissue. [05:51]
decimation 'this' being that 'science' becomes inhabitable for non-fraudulent scientists? [05:51]
asciilifeform aye. [05:51]
decimation I mean un-inhabitable [05:51]
asciilifeform right [05:51]
The20YearIRCloud so where do they go? [05:52]
asciilifeform civilizations senesce and die - like people. [05:52]
asciilifeform this is possibly the best-known fact about them. [05:53]
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decimation that's a good-quality usenet rant [05:54]
asciilifeform lots more where it came from. [05:55]
The20YearIRCloud lol [05:56]
The20YearIRCloud i'm trying to catch up and understand :D [05:56]
The20YearIRCloud Darn my lack of understanding [05:56]
decimation !s professor salary [05:56]
assbot 1 results for 'professor salary' : [05:56]
decimation [05:57]
assbot Logged on 21-01-2014 01:57:20; decimation: ?In 1890, professors salaries [at Amherst College] were $ 2,500, more than twenty times tuition. The step up from laborer to professor was immense, for the average wage earner in 1890 earned $425 a year. ? [05:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13559 @ 0.00085789 = 11.6321 BTC [+] [05:57]
decimation that explains some of the problem: the egalitarian mind-virus [05:57]
asciilifeform decimation: can't fix with money. soviet professors rolled in cash (compared to most other occupations.) this just attracts poseurs. [05:57]
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asciilifeform (just as you can't fix, e.g., old age, with money - here's another 'yarchive' nugget - [05:58]
assbot 404 Not Found [05:58]
asciilifeform go to hell, arsebot, it's 'found' [05:59]
asciilifeform point being - we don't know how to repair broken cultures. the best we know - is how to help them die. [05:59]
asciilifeform re: professors: [06:00]
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asciilifeform consider if you were to offer $maxint for antigrav device. [06:00]
asciilifeform all the money in the world won't conjure into existence 'the rabbit out of a hat, unless said rabbit is already in the hat' [06:01]
asciilifeform at least, not on a time scale you could put up with. [06:01]
decimation yeah that's a good point. I think the money is less important than the relative status, which is less important than just getting people to defer to their betters quickly [06:01]
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asciilifeform decimation: reward with status - get usg academics. [06:03]
asciilifeform you get what you optimize for - plus exhaust. [06:03]
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asciilifeform there is probably a 'perelman' within driving distance of where you (any you) live. but he's almost certainly surrendered and sucking state cock (and perelman no longer) - or is occupied with the minutiae of physical survival [06:07]
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asciilifeform BingoBoingo, perhaps, is working on the problem of building a hard disk that survives several centuries of exposure in the wilderness [06:08]
asciilifeform and if he isn't, he should be [06:08]
decimation etch binary on rocks? [06:08]
asciilifeform latency's killer. [06:09]
decimation heh [06:09]
asciilifeform state of the art is probably (cloth-based) paper under inert gas. [06:09]
decimation asciilifeform: does your nexus 10 provide reasonably close 'paper-like' screen presentation? [06:11]
asciilifeform decimation: i trim all the border whitespace and get approx. the same 'paper' size as the original document [06:11]
asciilifeform so in that sense yes [06:11]
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asciilifeform (as if this needed repeating - but for completeness - don't keep sensitive non-public material on 'nexus' or similar machine.) [06:12]
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decimation assuming 1 inch margins that sounds about right [06:12]
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decimation encrypted blobs are probably okay [06:13]
decimation no keys though [06:13]
asciilifeform solely ones you'd consent to have transmitted by radio across the planet [06:13]
decimation right. [06:13]
asciilifeform it is - a toy. [06:14]
* asciilifeform owns a number of toys, like other people [06:14]
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The20YearIRCloud Did I tell you guys that the bank approved the series of loans for RentalStarter? [06:14]
decimation do you have any non-toy computers aside from your symbolics machines? [06:14]
asciilifeform depends how you cut it [06:14]
decimation good job The20YearIRCloud! [06:14]
The20YearIRCloud Big thing is the terms were superior to what I expected, 5% vs 7%, and the ability to do 20yr fixed payback vs 15yr payback or adjustable rates [06:15]
* asciilifeform organizes machines similarly to mircea_popescu [06:15]
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asciilifeform The20YearIRCloud: almost certain that, given this, it doing anything but sitting on btc is a loss [06:17]
The20YearIRCloud as in not utilizing available capital> [06:18]
asciilifeform as in utilizing, to buy coin. [06:18]
decimation that's true, if btc is going to succeed, it is inevitable that it goes up several orders of magnitude in dollar price [06:18]
The20YearIRCloud Yeah [06:18]
asciilifeform someone (mircea_popescu?) suggested that, for so long as fiat long-term credit is available to anyone, this'll be the bullet that keeps killing it until dead. [06:18]
The20YearIRCloud Which is worrysome to me, but then I do have an auto-buy going through on a regular basis, so i'm trying to diversify in multiple methods - Bitcoin, USD, Silver/Gold/Coins , guns, real estate [06:19]
The20YearIRCloud hopefully between all that I'll personally be OK, but as far as the business is concerned, till bitcoin is a national currency and most workers get paid in it, it's gonna be hard for us to get truly involved in the BTC economy [06:20]
decimation The20YearIRCloud: sounds reasonable. real financial lending will not take place in bitcoin until it becomes the 'new currency' [06:21]
The20YearIRCloud And it's hard to judge when that will be, otherwise I do believe our model hedges well against USD collapse, and any major problems, while building enough capital and assets, should we have another downturn that we will be able to severely profit from it [06:21]
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peterl The20YearIRCloud: so now you get to hold onto bitcoins and use loans to buy houses? [06:32]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18650 @ 0.00086132 = 16.0636 BTC [+] [06:37]
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ben_vulpes !t h rent [07:01]
assbot [HAVELOCK:RENT] 1D: 0.00399999 / 0.00402843 / 0.00423999 (204 shares, 0.82179956 BTC), 7D: 0.00320001 / 0.00370607 / 0.00465000 (3085 shares, 11.43322802 BTC), 30D: 0.00320001 / 0.00402198 / 0.00478000 (9915 shares, 39.87789938 BTC) [07:01]
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mircea_popescu wow i step out for one hour... [07:27]
mircea_popescu !up Curious_George [07:27]
-assbot- You voiced Curious_George for 30 minutes. [07:27]
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Curious_George sup [07:27]
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mircea_popescu nothing much. [07:28]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: kanzure: nah, those're plain old ruins <<< and this you know how ? :D [07:30]
mircea_popescu The20YearIRCloud: With regards to coins, you only need to avoid the very, very limited types that are assumed to be stolen from the mint << it's only limited for now, and as a reflection of the coins actually physically found so far. as more juicy morcels make the beast salivate, they'll become less limited. [07:32]
mircea_popescu decimation: yeah back in the early 1900's the whole idea of the 'silver dollar' was the precursor to the modern bezzle << not so clear cut, really. more like a power struggle between west and east. [07:34]
decimation mircea_popescu: that's true, in that case the eastern bankers were all in favor of gold (as they didn't envision some gov't bank would be able to print infinite silver) [07:34]
mircea_popescu amusingly, all the "buitres" scandal in argentina today is exactly reminiscent of midwestern and californian pro-silver aggitation in the 1880s [07:35]
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mircea_popescu specifically, the "foreign interest" was putting forth gold standard to fleece the "hard working" "real" americans. [07:35]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: there's always an 'imaginary particle' involved <<< in phairness, this is how physics works all through. [07:38]
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mircea_popescu decimation: okay that makes sense << what he means by provenance being that if you measure in argon and he measures in xenon, it's not directly obvious what the functions look like to verify if you got the same result and quantify the eventual differences. [07:41]
mircea_popescu decimation: I called up NIST a few weeks ago, asked them how much it would cost to measure the phase noise of an oscillator. They said it would only cost their time, which would come to about $10k! for a morning session <<< in other words, "can only work if you have supply of bezzle dollars", ie, "only with scrip saying it's ok signed by stalin" [07:42]
decimation yeah that sounds about right [07:43]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: if ussr were alive, perhaps he'd have defected. << a fine example of why the "one world, one fuhrer" delusion of government is unproductive. [07:45]
mircea_popescu ah look, he says so the next line himself :p [07:46]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: (how to know that schwartz (or taleb, or...) collects 'prize' rather than usg stooge with a shannonizer and irc connection - exercise for alert reader.) <<< if you recall something sort-of like that was tried, except this "major prize" approach is flawed as you explain. so, better version was tried :) [07:47]
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decimation heh "The city voters—especially German Americans—overwhelmingly rejected the free-silver cause out of conviction that it would lead to economic disaster, unemployment, and higher prices. The diversified farmers of the Midwest and East opposed it as well, but the cotton farmers in the South and the wheat farmers in the West were enthusiastic for free silver. " [07:55]
assbot Free silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [07:55]
decimation yet another reason why the germans in the us had to be de-kulaked [07:56]
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asciilifeform plain old ruins << re: the ones pictured in linked blog. though surprising quantities of goodies in some. [08:38]
asciilifeform better version was tried << gurlz pulsating on camera ? [08:40]
asciilifeform or was there another 'try' [08:40]
asciilifeform re: provenance & physics thread - anyone unfamiliar with the story of blondlot and 'n-rays' is invited to read about it. [08:44]
asciilifeform (for nontechnical types, klotz's 'diamond dealers and feather merchants' has an excellent basic account.) [08:45]
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asciilifeform 'free silver' << the fiat camel's nose in the american tent. not sure how to avoid this conclusion. [08:47]
[]bot Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $350 before November" Odds: 43(Y):57(N) by coin, 43(Y):57(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.13075596 BTC. Current weight: 99,516. [08:49]
asciilifeform I don't know that they can be built << lol, anything that was built, can be built. [08:51]
asciilifeform provenance << isn't about the differing principle of the proposed tester. it's about the fact experiment doesn't count if carried out wholly on apparatus constructed by a 'non-disinterested' party [08:58]
asciilifeform and will never be replicated on a 'disinterested' apparatus because this means essentially all practicing 'physicists' get blondlot-ed. [08:58]
asciilifeform this story concerned more than a quarrel between a weirdo chemist and the whole of usg/nato 'physics' [09:01]
asciilifeform it's really a typical death-rattle of the civilization. [09:01]
asciilifeform there isn't, as far as i understand, a 'fix'. [09:02]
asciilifeform perhaps intelligent roaches or marmosets will carry out 'schwartz's' experiment after we're through. [09:02]
decimation asciilifeform: is the death-rattle the gridlock caused by bureaucracy replacing science? [09:04]
asciilifeform don't blame the murder on the maggots. [09:04]
asciilifeform they just happen to eat corpses, it's in their job description. [09:04]
asciilifeform there's not a 'ready-canned' answer for why rome bit it [09:05]
asciilifeform why expect one - for us. [09:05]
asciilifeform but to attribute death to the graveworms - is a mistake. [09:05]
decimation decay from 'rule by men to the bureaucratic state was definitely on the list [09:06]
asciilifeform symptom. [09:06]
asciilifeform (of what? if we knew, there'd be at least a hypothetical pill.) [09:06]
asciilifeform thus far all we know is that civilizations behave like ms-winblows boxes - encrusts with turdolade until grinds to a halt, then reboot. [09:08]
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RagnarDanneskjol what do you assume to be the root cause ascii? (besides societal mental atrophy) [09:09]
decimation heh turdolade. yeah I guess the bureaucracy really exploded with Diocletian, but things had already been going badly for at least a hundred years [09:09]
asciilifeform RagnarDanneskjol: i don't regard it as a proven fact that there necessarily is a 'root cause.' [09:10]
decimation plus the chinese bureaucracy lasted for hundreds of years per reboot cycle [09:10]
RagnarDanneskjol well there must be some likely culprits [09:10]
asciilifeform institutions of every kind decay in well-documented ways. [09:11]
decimation one answer: wealth and power sow the seeds of their own destruction, in the avarice and sloth of the new generations [09:11]
asciilifeform eventually immune system collapses, the proverbial 'eastern hordes water their horses in the rhine.' [09:12]
decimation another answer: when power is passed to the new generation, it tends to be divided rather than concentrated - in the end the franchise is extended to every human and his dog, and no one is really in charge [09:13]
decimation mongol hordes appear on the border - giving not one wit about the current power structure - and pillage as they see fit [09:14]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform i really don't think its as political as all that. [09:15]
asciilifeform to stretch the metaphor a bit, sometimes the moribund get a stay of execution, when the horde grows terminally fat before it can reach the capital. [09:15]
mircea_popescu decimation basically, it was a new immigrant vs old immigrant debate. the old guys had savings and wanted to keep them. the new guys had mortgages and wanted to get rid of them. [09:16]
asciilifeform !s harpagon [09:16]
assbot 2 results for 'harpagon' : [09:16]
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mircea_popescu no but srsly, i can see perfectly valid reasons to not trust measurements made by new guys on new tools. [09:17]
asciilifeform very. [09:17]
mircea_popescu for that matter, recall the story of the milikan pious fraud i think it was ? [09:17]
asciilifeform this is why the tale should terrify people [09:17]
mircea_popescu where the original measurement was wildly wrong, [09:17]
asciilifeform because it's about death. [09:17]
asciilifeform yes, that. [09:17]
mircea_popescu and the subsequent ones didn't spread out but converged ? [09:17]
asciilifeform correct. [09:17]
mircea_popescu right. this was accidental, not the result of conspiraci, ie, political organising. [09:17]
asciilifeform no organization in the usual sense needed. [09:18]
asciilifeform forget who - used term 'prospiracy' [09:18]
asciilifeform like, [09:19]
asciilifeform [09:19]
assbot Logged on 29-08-2014 05:11:06; decimation: the thing is, Admiral McCain probably didn't have to issue any special instructions to 'finesse' the investigation, the investigators probably all thought it would be a brilliant plan [09:19]
mircea_popescu (of what? if we knew, there'd be at least a hypothetical pill.) << the public appetite for personal humiliation decays, and with it, the possibility of life. [09:19]
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asciilifeform thing is, nobody cancelled appetite for, e.g, death - 'mortido!' [09:20]
asciilifeform but not channelled usefully. [09:20]
mircea_popescu that seems to me a hollow analogy. [09:20]
mircea_popescu there really isn't a "counterbalance" to libiod. [09:20]
asciilifeform appetite for humiliation, i.e. risk ? [09:21]
mircea_popescu (something needs to push rocks up in the air, and the space station too. what's needed to push them down ?) [09:21]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform consider the life and deeds of gabrielle, a buxom blonde girl. [09:21]
mircea_popescu when she's 16, she runs out of school (for which she risks a reprimand) and hides behind the bleachers to... kiss (for which she risks quite a lot of societal shunning) [09:22]
mircea_popescu when she's 36 she follows the workplace rules. [09:22]
mircea_popescu her appetite for humiliation has dwindled. [09:22]
asciilifeform appetite - or opportunity. [09:23]
mircea_popescu she is a "wiser woman" now. happily married now. at her place in life now. well... [09:23]
asciilifeform aha empty carapace [09:23]
* asciilifeform spotted a cicada in garden today, and thought of mircea_popescu's post about parenting [09:23]
mircea_popescu society in general and civilisation in particular is predicated on making sense of the world, which readily reduces to avoiding being humiliated. this is fine and dandy until it actually works. [09:24]
mircea_popescu but if you ever wondered why towards the end of an epoch art moves from classical to trollage... well... art is a sort of societal immune system. [09:25]
asciilifeform i always use the term 'calmed down' for these people. starting from having played 'half life', where there is a scene of an einsteinesque white coated figure who gets an alien 'headcrab' jump on his head. it takes roots, he struggles for a while, then 'calms down' and ambles on as zombie. [09:25]
mircea_popescu except the crab doesn't go on the head [09:25]
mircea_popescu more like, on the cunt. [09:25]
asciilifeform lol [09:25]
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xmj moin. [09:27]
mircea_popescu << i like this one [09:27]
asciilifeform lol, still on the trolley even. [09:28]
mircea_popescu compareand contrast. [09:28]
decimation is that a V1? [09:29]
mircea_popescu there's no distinguishing sufficiently advanced tech from magic, nor sufficiently decayed tech from faith. [09:29]
asciilifeform !b 1 [09:29]
assbot Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( ) [09:29]
mircea_popescu decimation nah, soviet hardware [09:31]
mircea_popescu [09:31]
assbot , , , ... 18+ - "" [09:31]
xmj I think my brain just snowcrashed. [09:31]
asciilifeform obligatory: [09:32]
asciilifeform 'We understand automobiles. There are no homeopathic automobile repair shops, that try to repair your car by putting infinitesimal dilutions of rust in the gas tank. There are no automotive faith healers, who lay their hands on the hood and pray. People reserve such superstitions for things that they don’t understand very well, such as the human body… … Superstitions arise because we don’t understand. I [09:32]
asciilifeform f this trend continues, we may soon see homeopathic computer repair. Perhaps it will consist of adding a virus to a program, deleting the virus, and then running the program. You may soon be able to take your laptop to a faith healer, who will lay his hands on the keyboard and pray for the recovery of the operating system. Is this the future of computing? Or can we instead build on the idea that a computer progr [09:32]
asciilifeform am is a mathematical object that can be understood through logic?' [09:32]
mircea_popescu xmj how's that go ? [09:32]
asciilifeform -- lamport's 'The Future of Computing: Logic or Biology?' [09:32]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: linked post reveals that rocket is a 'size and mass model' (i.e. dummy.) [09:33]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can attest the faith healing already happens, in those sad sad caves where middle aged women huddle to stroke their collective pretending to be part of civilisation. [09:33]
asciilifeform happens also at computer shops, yes [09:34]
asciilifeform or perhaps you meant those. [09:34]
mircea_popescu govt offices, newspaper offices, phone pharms, i seen it everwhere. [09:35]
asciilifeform 'Внутри более сохранившегося командного пункта разрушения изрядные, а обстановка мрачная - кто-то разодрал аппаратуру и жег кабели прямо на месте, отчего стены и потолки покрыты копотью' [09:35]
mircea_popescu knew a camwhore who slept with her laptop because the one time she didn't it felt snubbed and wouldn't work right the whole day. [09:35]
decimation except I was reading Dijkstra in "structured programming" and he wrote that it was hopeless to try to "prove" practical code. He did suggest that this is a reason for humility and simplicity. [09:35]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00086242 = 14.3162 BTC [+] [09:36]
asciilifeform 'in the better-preserved command post the destruction is substantial, and the atmosphere morose - someone tore apart the machinery, and burned the cables right where they lay - from which the walls and ceiling were covered in soot.' [09:36]
mircea_popescu The20YearIRCloud: i've been off reading physics articles trying to grasp things and lost the conversation << should probably be the motto of b-a [09:36]
asciilifeform why burned cables? i can say right now. copper dealer doesn't pay for rubber - only copper. [09:36]
mircea_popescu obviously thieves yea [09:36]
mircea_popescu decimation for simplicity at any rate. [09:37]
mircea_popescu decimation: it is probably terrible to become an object of some fad among elites today << you know, i'm a poststructuralist jus' fine. [09:37]
mircea_popescu is it evident ? [09:37]
asciilifeform decimation: who listened to dijkstra. academics - good joke. programmers - ha. [09:37]
decimation reminds me of teufelsberg: [09:38]
assbot Teufelsberg (Abandoned spy station) | Abandoned Berlin [09:38]
mircea_popescu decimation: yeah that's a good point. I think the money is less important than the relative status, which is less important than just getting people to defer to their betters quickly << no, not quickly. painfully. [09:42]
mircea_popescu that's the point there. [09:42]
mircea_popescu the "no pain, no gain" equation holds all sorts of critical, unexpected applications. [09:42]
xmj mircea_popescu: slept ~17h tonight. slept most of yesterday... (well, powernaps in IST airport and plane) [09:42]
mircea_popescu maybe it's the tse tse [09:42]
decimation mircea_popescu: hormesis: "it's okay for you (and society)" [09:44]
assbot High Altitude Boosts Longevity And Reduces Risk Of Dying Of Ischemic Heart Disease - Medical News Today [09:44]
mircea_popescu "In one of the most comprehensive studies of its kind, researchers at the University of Colorado School of Medicine in partnership with the Harvard School of Global Health have found that people living at higher altitudes have a lower chance of dying from ischemic heart disease and tend to live longer than others." [09:44]
mircea_popescu "experiment" studies people who already did live there. helpful o.O [09:45]
mircea_popescu in other news, people living in africa get less sunstroke. [09:45]
asciilifeform !s married grow taller [09:45]
assbot 1 results for 'married grow taller' : [09:45]
mircea_popescu "We all act as though we're immortal until we get sick, and then we [09:46]
mircea_popescu want the cure now! And when we don't get it, we look for a witch to [09:46]
mircea_popescu blame, because witch-hunting is something the human brain does [09:46]
mircea_popescu naturally. Certainly it naturally sucks at doing science; much [09:46]
mircea_popescu unnatural training is required for that. But gossiping and [09:46]
mircea_popescu witch-finding and crime-solving and conspiracy-theories -- that really [09:46]
mircea_popescu gets the heart going. I see it has yours going, when the science was [09:46]
mircea_popescu really boring! Which is to you say, you're a typical human female." [09:46]
mircea_popescu ouch. [09:46]
mircea_popescu the typical woman female being ariana huffington. [09:47]
decimation interestingly the western states that are bathed in radiation from the sun & uranium from the ground have the lowest cancer rates (yes there are confounders) [09:47]
assbot CDC - Cancer - Data and Statistics - Cancer Rates by State [09:47]
xmj Women. [09:47]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12595 @ 0.00086242 = 10.8622 BTC [+] [09:48]
asciilifeform << lol at double-stencil [09:48]
assbot . [09:48]
xmj To me, science comes naturally. [09:48]
xmj But then.. [09:48]
xmj [09:48]
assbot The "Extreme Male Brain": An Explanation for Autism? | Interactive Autism Network [09:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22255 @ 0.00085578 = 19.0454 BTC [-] {2} [09:49]
asciilifeform we all like to laugh at 'witch hunt' except - we have witches. who you gonna call. [09:49]
mircea_popescu To me, science comes naturally. << know anyone who actually is of this opinion ? [09:50]
xmj A great many friends, yes [09:52]
xmj all on the autistic spectrum [09:52]
mircea_popescu well, any of them actual scientists ? [09:53]
mircea_popescu not aspiring, scientists-in-training, etc. [09:53]
xmj most entrepreneurs [09:53]
mircea_popescu yeah, well, maybe you shouldn't trust that too far then. [09:54]
xmj yeah, well, maybe you have no idea what you're talking about :) [09:54]
mircea_popescu how;s that work ? [09:54]
xmj entrepreneurship pays more than research (postgrad) positions [09:55]
asciilifeform what it even means, 'it comes naturally' [09:55]
asciilifeform for instance, shitting comes naturally [09:55]
mircea_popescu science comes easy to you according to yourself, some friends that are into business and this is somehow my problem ? [09:55]
asciilifeform most people, if well fed, will produce the requisite pile of shit with very little active work on their part. [09:55]
xmj you do not get it. [09:55]
asciilifeform this means - comes naturally. [09:55]
mircea_popescu yes, not getting "it" comes naturally to me. [09:55]
asciilifeform xmj: so what kind of pile you produce? [09:55]
asciilifeform sleep - also comes naturally. [09:57]
* asciilifeform off to comes naturally [09:57]
* decimation agrees, follows suit [09:58]
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xmj note to self, ignore mircea_popescu on most any discussions as unhelpful [10:01]
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mircea_popescu im very helpful according to most people i know! HELPING COMES NATURALLY TO ME [10:18]
* RagnarDanneskjol wonders why help is expected during the course of normal discussion [10:19]
RagnarDanneskjol [10:19]
assbot Setting Discussion Expectations - Pedagogical Repository [10:19]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11850 @ 0.00085634 = 10.1476 BTC [+] [10:33]
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RagnarDanneskjol [10:41]
RagnarDanneskjol (VerSum: Verifiable Computations over Large Public Logs) [10:41]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00086491 = 9.2545 BTC [+] {2} [10:57]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13552 @ 0.00086527 = 11.7261 BTC [+] [11:51]
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RagnarDanneskjol !up RagnarsBitch [12:06]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.00085962 = 4.599 BTC [-] [12:21]
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chetty My dear,How are you? i am a banker in the bank, i get your contact from yahoo terrorist search.Reason,i am in need of your help as a foreigner i want to transfer an abandoned $15million to your account 40% for you while 60% for me please indicate your interest for more detail. [12:33]
mircea_popescu lol moving up in the world. [12:34]
chetty cheeky, starting off with my dear :P [12:36]
mircea_popescu i think someone put "my dear" for "hello" in some sort of 1970s azn manual of english [12:36]
mircea_popescu it's suspiciously too common. [12:36]
mircea_popescu britishism [12:37]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00085489 = 15.6445 BTC [-] {2} [12:39]
chetty [12:46]
assbot Fresh eruption north of Bardarbunga -video | RV [12:46]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15498 @ 0.00085352 = 13.2279 BTC [-] [13:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2852 @ 0.00085268 = 2.4318 BTC [-] [13:53]
mircea_popescu hot stuff. [13:59]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2000 @ 0.00054999 = 1.1 BTC [+] {2} [14:25]
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mircea_popescu ;;ticker [14:37]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 491.48, Best ask: 492.99, Bid-ask spread: 1.51000, Last trade: 493.01, 24 hour volume: 5792.89372358, 24 hour low: 484.95, 24 hour high: 505.12, 24 hour vwap: 496.502818151 [14:37]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4112 @ 0.00085861 = 3.5306 BTC [+] [15:19]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29600 @ 0.00086174 = 25.5075 BTC [+] {2} [15:40]
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penguirker New blog post: [15:49]
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kakobrekla dense log. nice. [16:29]
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mircea_popescu stop being unhelpful kako :D [17:29]
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