Forum logs for 20 Dec 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all --currency gbp [00:05]
gribble Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 308.0842, vol: 6598.51908905 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 305.5325, vol: 6088.35063 | CampBX BTCGBP last: 302.175, vol: 2.6742231 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 317.4304, vol: 78934.70550000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 298.00001, vol: 0.25189048 | Bitcoin-Central BTCGBP last: 306.47407297, vol: 39.12527421 | Volume-weighted last average: 315.962161932 [00:05]
BingoBoingo https://archive.is/rmZSy "During tonight's Democratic debate in New Hampshire, Clinton was running late again returning from a commercial—it's not clear whether a bathroom was involved" << Springtime for Clitler [00:10]
assbot Hillary's podium empty as ABC starts debate segment. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J0JsSa ) [00:10]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87650 @ 0.00049892 = 43.7303 BTC [+] {3} [00:46]
mod6 ok I have made some additions, and this is what I've come up with: [00:52]
mod6 http://dpaste.com/0SQKDZP.txt [00:52]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1J0JOIl ) [00:52]
mod6 it's not fully tested yet -- tomorrow I'll pass the testable version around and some people can give it a try. [00:53]
mod6 then if everything passes, etc, will publish a new version [v99996] [00:53]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60637 @ 0.00050157 = 30.4137 BTC [+] {2} [00:54]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348246 << and waitsec how on earth would you even try to verify hashes ~after all the patches are pressed~ << yah, i dunno. didn't go that direction. it validates now after each vpatch is pressed. [00:55]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 01:13:56; mod6: asciilifeform et. al. V question: Should I verify the hashes after all patches are vpressed, or after each pressed vpatch in the topological order? [00:55]
BingoBoingo What the fuck is this prove you are a good fiat business before we'll even show you laser and hazmat prices business https://archive.is/pBOQL [01:02]
assbot Account Sign Up - Sign Up Options | Stuller ... ( http://bit.ly/1J0JWHW ) [01:02]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 118509 @ 0.0004967 = 58.8634 BTC [-] {5} [01:04]
* assbot gives voice to thestringpuller [01:05]
thestringpuller ;;isup qntra.net [01:07]
thestringpuller ;;isup trilema.com [01:07]
gribble qntra.net is up [01:07]
gribble trilema.com is up [01:07]
thestringpuller !gettrust jgarzik [01:15]
assbot Trust relationship from user thestringpuller to user jgarzik: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=thestringpuller&to=jgarzik | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/jgarzik/ [01:15]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100250 @ 0.00049616 = 49.74 BTC [-] {4} [01:40]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 290300 @ 0.00049231 = 142.9176 BTC [-] {6} [01:54]
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gabriel_laddel http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347924 << here it comes... [02:17]
assbot Logged on 19-12-2015 22:34:54; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform an ast is generated SOMEHOW. [02:17]
ben_vulpes evening, gabriel_laddel [02:20]
gabriel_laddel "here what comes?" [02:20]
gabriel_laddel "understanding." [02:20]
gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: hihi [02:21]
gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: how is the family, work, life? [02:21]
ben_vulpes alive, in gear, and enjoyable thank you [02:22]
ben_vulpes how grows masamune? [02:22]
ben_vulpes (and your other work) [02:22]
gabriel_laddel Heh. Having the first mirror machine and the prospect of automating the install process within arm's reach is a strong motivation to... job hunt. [02:24]
BingoBoingo https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWpF0t4XIAAqaD2.jpg [02:42]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSfzo9 ) [02:42]
BingoBoingo https://archive.is/cQIZ5 [02:49]
assbot Board Seat Appointments - General - Bitcoin Foundation ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSfK2G ) [02:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00049568 = 9.0214 BTC [+] {2} [02:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63400 @ 0.00049999 = 31.6994 BTC [+] {4} [03:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74821 @ 0.00049064 = 36.7102 BTC [-] {2} [03:19]
ben_vulpes whatever did happen to bitcointa.lk [03:21]
BingoBoingo no idea [03:23]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36231 @ 0.00049744 = 18.0227 BTC [+] {2} [04:15]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51701 @ 0.0004976 = 25.7264 BTC [+] {3} [04:23]
* assbot gives voice to trinque [04:26]
trinque to 62.210.90.95 ... why the fuck are you downloading the logs bundle over and over ? [04:26]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67100 @ 0.00048993 = 32.8743 BTC [-] {3} [04:42]
* assbot gives voice to trinque [04:46]
trinque http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-11-2014#937160 << fix your script; i.e. download only bundles you've never seen, or don't you know how crypto sigs work [04:46]
assbot Logged on 27-11-2014 17:59:12; Anduck: ip 62.210.90.95 [04:46]
trinque how bout that, #b-a l0gz DNS [04:47]
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BingoBoingo !up Anduck [04:48]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46938 @ 0.00049814 = 23.3817 BTC [+] {2} [04:54]
trinque Anduck: a gentleman might consider funding the bot's address after using a terabyte of bandwidth [05:00]
trinque !gettrust Anduck [05:00]
assbot Trust relationship from user trinque to user Anduck: Level 1: -3, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=trinque&to=Anduck | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/Anduck/ [05:00]
trinque how bout that. [05:00]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45585 @ 0.00049596 = 22.6083 BTC [-] {3} [05:27]
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BingoBoingo Song may be right? https://archive.is/XvHkY [05:54]
assbot Hitler really did have only one testicle, German researcher claims | World news | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/22hEyXu ) [05:54]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33900 @ 0.00049447 = 16.7625 BTC [-] {2} [06:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70650 @ 0.00050312 = 35.5454 BTC [+] {2} [06:06]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73262 @ 0.00050315 = 36.8618 BTC [+] {3} [07:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37650 @ 0.00048812 = 18.3777 BTC [-] {5} [07:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60734 @ 0.00049568 = 30.1046 BTC [+] [07:45]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29128 @ 0.0004904 = 14.2844 BTC [-] {2} [07:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100337 @ 0.00048639 = 48.8029 BTC [-] {4} [08:29]
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mircea_popescu it is the prehistoric clay pipes which are the problem << clay pipes are best pipes. really. [08:54]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes> whatever did happen to bitcointa.lk << the guy had a good idea back when a few people still thought tardstalk might possibily matter. that was... well over a year ago. [09:02]
mircea_popescu trinque> to 62.210.90.95 ... why the fuck are you downloading the logs bundle over and over ? << try an' guess. [09:03]
mircea_popescu heh. [09:03]
mircea_popescu 100%[======================================>] 11,536,384 3.06M/s in 3.6s [09:11]
mircea_popescu man i like the smell of new hardware. [09:11]
thestringpuller wget? [09:11]
mircea_popescu ,yeah [09:12]
mircea_popescu in other news, sprint.pl "one the most advanced centers in Poland for data storage and processing, created in response to the growing demands of the market" ran off with muh boxen. [09:32]
mircea_popescu apparently that's ok now, because reasons. [09:32]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46500 @ 0.00049165 = 22.8617 BTC [+] {4} [09:34]
punkman mircea_popescu: was that the new phuctor box? [09:45]
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punkman http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/18/politics/juniper-networks-us-government-security-hack/ mkay [10:19]
assbot Newly discovered hack has U.S. fearing foreign infiltration - CNNPolitics.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1PiWBqX ) [10:19]
punkman http://screenrant.com/coleco-chameleon-video-game-cartridge/ coleco is still alive? [10:23]
assbot Coleco Developing New Cartridge-Based Video Game Console ... ( http://bit.ly/1PiX3W0 ) [10:23]
punkman ah they have an indiegogo [10:23]
punkman https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/retro-vgs so coleco plans to somehow rebrand this thing that flopped [10:27]
assbot RETRO VGS | Indiegogo ... ( http://bit.ly/1NEYJVj ) [10:27]
liquidassets http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347566 [10:47]
assbot Logged on 19-12-2015 19:34:16; pete_dushenski: ima contravexbash this [10:47]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88984 @ 0.00048897 = 43.5105 BTC [-] {3} [11:26]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82537 @ 0.00049601 = 40.9392 BTC [+] {3} [11:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72900 @ 0.00049604 = 36.1613 BTC [+] {2} [12:02]
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jurov https://petsymposium.org/2015/papers/vandenhooff-vuvuzela-hotpets2015.pdf [12:37]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1NFanj9 ) [12:37]
jurov " [12:37]
jurov Vuvuzela’s design assumes an adversary that [12:37]
jurov controls all but one of the Vuvuzela servers (users need not [12:37]
jurov know which one), controls an arbitrary number of clients, and [12:37]
jurov can monitor, block, delay, or inject tra [12:37]
jurov ffi [12:37]
jurov c on any network [12:37]
jurov link. Two users communicating through Vuvuzela should [12:37]
jurov have their communication protected if their two clients, and [12:37]
jurov any one server, are uncompromised. [12:37]
jurov " << MIT got inspired [12:38]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 113800 @ 0.00049703 = 56.562 BTC [+] {5} [12:49]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70800 @ 0.00048923 = 34.6375 BTC [-] {4} [13:18]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105803 @ 0.00049636 = 52.5164 BTC [+] {3} [13:52]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7251 @ 0.00050154 = 3.6367 BTC [+] [13:54]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348386 << ahahaha right. let me know when you've seen geysers of shit spewing from your bathtub on account of tree roots penetrating your clay pipes [13:59]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 11:51:26; mircea_popescu: it is the prehistoric clay pipes which are the problem << clay pipes are best pipes. really. [13:59]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348390 << sl00000w [13:59]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 12:08:09; mircea_popescu: 100%[======================================>] 11,536,384 3.06M/s in 3.6s [13:59]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348394 << why does mircea_popescu keep buying boxes in nato ? [14:00]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 12:29:21; mircea_popescu: in other news, sprint.pl "one the most advanced centers in Poland for data storage and processing, created in response to the growing demands of the market" ran off with muh boxen. [14:00]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348398 << 'The breach is believed to be the work of a foreign government, U.S. officials said, because of the sophistication involved. The U.S. officials said they are certain U.S. spy agencies themselves aren't behind the back door. China and Russia are among the top suspected governments...' << mega-l0l [14:03]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 13:16:15; punkman: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/18/politics/juniper-networks-us-government-security-hack/ mkay [14:03]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348397 << nah that thing is still up (though at the moment the only thing properly built there is a trb node) [14:04]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 12:42:13; punkman: mircea_popescu: was that the new phuctor box? [14:04]
asciilifeform as in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348094 [14:04]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 00:17:11; asciilifeform: incidentally, gentlemen, please welcome (back) dulap! 46.166.165.30:8333 (nosuchlabs.com), a trb node running bleedingedge-asciilifeform+rotor(musl) [14:04]
thestringpuller ;;market sell --fiat 6000000000 [14:04]
gribble Bitfinex | This order would exceed the size of the order book. You would sell 328927.03 bitcoins for a total of 7885661.1167 USD and take the price to 0. | Data vintage: 0.0046 seconds [14:04]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348422 << by now everybody knows the usg academitard modus operandi [14:05]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 15:35:20; jurov: " << MIT got inspired [14:05]
asciilifeform would be interesting (for a laugh) to see the actual code, but this is improbable [14:06]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348378 << now it remains to be learned whether '...musso, he has none at all' [14:07]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 08:51:17; assbot: Hitler really did have only one testicle, German researcher claims | World news | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/22hEyXu ) [14:07]
punkman https://github.com/davidlazar/vuvuzela [14:08]
assbot davidlazar/vuvuzela · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1US98BO ) [14:08]
asciilifeform l0l, 'go' [14:08]
punkman naturally [14:08]
asciilifeform 'Vuvuzela assumes the existence of a PKI in which users can privately learn each others public keys. This implementation uses pki.conf as a placeholder until we integrate a real PKI.' << ahaha [14:09]
asciilifeform 'Vuvuzela uses efficient cryptography (NaCl) to hide as much metadata as possible and adds noise to metadata that can't be encrypted efficiently. This approach provides less privacy than encrypting all of the metadata, but it enables Vuvuzela to support millions of users. ' [14:10]
asciilifeform do i need to actually read this thing [14:10]
punkman yale's equivalent http://dedis.cs.yale.edu/dissent/ [14:11]
assbot dedis@yale | Dissent: Accountable Anonymous Group Communication ... ( http://bit.ly/1muKDix ) [14:11]
mod6 So with the post-press hash validator in place, here's some debugging/info output while pressing in verbose mode: http://dpaste.com/2EM6P8S.txt [14:12]
punkman stanford's http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/abstracts/riposte.html [14:12]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1muKJXu ) [14:12]
assbot Boneh Publications: [14:12]
asciilifeform !s boneh [14:12]
mod6 I think this is pretty much what we want. I'll start writing some automated tests for this. [14:12]
assbot 1 results for 'boneh' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=boneh [14:12]
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asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-04-2015#1085575 << thread re: herr boneh [14:13]
assbot Logged on 03-04-2015 02:40:46; asciilifeform: http://www.voltage.com/technology/identity-based-encryption << him [14:13]
asciilifeform also gotta love the 'million of anonymous' and 'ddos resistant' claim. [14:14]
asciilifeform and the fiddy pounds of maths [14:15]
asciilifeform classic usgization [14:15]
asciilifeform expect more 'embrace & extend' of gossipd. [14:15]
asciilifeform does harvard have one yet ? [14:16]
asciilifeform how about rand corp ? [14:16]
thestringpuller wassup asciilifeform [14:16]
thestringpuller merry xmas bro [14:16]
asciilifeform naval academy ? [14:16]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: wasn't that a week from now [14:17]
asciilifeform https://github.com/dedis/Dissent/blob/master/src/Crypto/DsaPrivateKey.cpp << holy fuck the yale thing supports dsa ?! [14:18]
assbot Dissent/DsaPrivateKey.cpp at master · dedis/Dissent · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1muL6S7 ) [14:18]
asciilifeform https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/trigger-warning-a-platform-for-dissident-thought << similar lulz elsewhere [14:19]
assbot Trigger Warning - A Platform for Dissident Thought | Indiegogo ... ( http://bit.ly/1muLcJs ) [14:19]
asciilifeform mod6: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348455 << neato [14:21]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 17:09:24; mod6: So with the post-press hash validator in place, here's some debugging/info output while pressing in verbose mode: http://dpaste.com/2EM6P8S.txt [14:21]
thestringpuller whatever happened to friedcat: http://btcreporter.com/2015/03/04/mystery-in-bitcoinland-the-disappearance-of-friedcat/ [14:22]
asciilifeform mod6: have you tested it with 'false' entries? (files which were newly created) [14:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52204 @ 0.00049287 = 25.7298 BTC [-] {3} [14:22]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65172 @ 0.00048508 = 31.6136 BTC [-] {2} [14:23]
thestringpuller https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3xksss/coinbase_bans_me_after_i_help_them_fix_major/ << oh look coinbase is officially a scam. [14:27]
punkman "Instead of abusing the exploit i have decided to help Coinbase fix the exploit by telling them step to step instructions on how to reproduce the bug on hackerone. After they were able to fix the exploit i was rewarded a measly $5,000 bounty, which i thought was unfair and was expecting to get upwards of $25,000. I helped them fix something that could have damaged them in hundreds of [14:29]
punkman thousands of dollars, maybe even Millions if the exploit was executed correctly with the right amount of people. Anyway so after i got my bounty and moved on they put some kind of "secret" ban on my account" [14:29]
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punkman !up pxallin [14:32]
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punkman good god man, why did you tell them about the second exploit [14:33]
thestringpuller hey pxallin. just posted your story here. [14:33]
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asciilifeform didn't we do a 'responsible disclosure'-is-for-idiots thread ? [14:57]
asciilifeform possibly http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=06-07-2015#1188887 and http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-07-2015#1188248 [14:58]
assbot Logged on 06-07-2015 01:24:01; mircea_popescu: "you wanted to benefit from responsible disclosure protections, you should have been in the wot" "but at the time i made that decision it seemed a no brainer, why expend the effort" "right. this is why you die." [14:58]
assbot Logged on 05-07-2015 15:10:28; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-07-2015#1188163 << this is why, when dealing with a usg-powered entity, the correct procedure is not 'disclosure', which will be censored and hushed up; but - total annihilation [14:58]
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asciilifeform this is the kind of bind folks end up in because it is impossible (to a first approximation) to sell 0days. [15:04]
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asciilifeform now if camel fucker army had brains and used pgp and gave half a shit, one could send 0day to them and have at least the pleasure of knowing that it will be used to deal max damage. [15:06]
asciilifeform or north kr, etc. [15:06]
asciilifeform but even then impossible: [15:06]
asciilifeform they'd get swamped with disinfo [15:06]
asciilifeform so it would appear to me that traffic in 0day is impossible without a wot [15:08]
asciilifeform but it is also impossible ~with~ a wot, unless you are mircea_popescu and are in commerce with another mircea_popescu . [15:08]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: well traditionally a blackhat would have a group and they would deal max damage themselves. [15:08]
thestringpuller I've only heard of OS exploits being "sat on" for long periods of time. [15:08]
asciilifeform thestringpuller: there is not a single such 'group' in planet 3 that isn't either a) usg tendril b) full of stoolies and candidate for gasenwagen [15:09]
thestringpuller The risk for crime is the gasenwagen. Raiders have always been ride or die. [15:09]
asciilifeform almost meaningless statement. [15:10]
asciilifeform and 'risk' is a weasel word when applied to a suicidally-stupid mistake such as associating with bands of idiot wotless children. [15:11]
thestringpuller I was talking pre-wot days. But sure, I understand what you are saying. [15:14]
thestringpuller Meat-WoT was a thing no? [15:14]
asciilifeform aha [15:18]
asciilifeform but it made локализация провала ( mircea_popescu ! does english even have a word for this basic concept ?) difficult [15:19]
asciilifeform roughly 'localization of failure' but is a specific tradecraft term [15:19]
asciilifeform but back to subj, meatwots consisting of idiot children tend to get rolled up within a single day [15:20]
asciilifeform whenever enemy feels like it. [15:20]
thestringpuller "resistance is futile" [15:21]
asciilifeform mno. [15:21]
asciilifeform futile for idiot children. [15:21]
* tripleslash_o is now known as tripleslash [15:22]
thestringpuller weakest link is always idiot child. [15:22]
asciilifeform associating with idiot child is a choice. [15:23]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: have you tested it with 'false' entries? (files which were newly created) << this is a good test. it should just do what its supposed to do 'as is' I think? this line will grab the 'b' of the vdiff; my $file_hash = $vp_map{$vp}{$src_file_name}{b}; [15:26]
mod6 and if a new file is introduced the 'a' should be 'false' and the 'b' will be some sha512 hash, and will still be verifyable. correct? [15:26]
mod6 anyway, yeah, will still test that. [15:27]
asciilifeform mod6: test it with my latest patch [15:27]
asciilifeform it creates a 'knobs.h' [15:27]
mod6 ah, good lookin' [15:27]
mod6 thanks. [15:27]
mod6 ok: http://dpaste.com/3PZ9CP8.txt [15:31]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1NwM3Cf ) [15:31]
mod6 looks like it did what it was supposed to do. [15:32]
asciilifeform mod6: very neat [15:32]
mod6 so the ones that it /does/ skip is when 'b' == 'false' -- where the file was ~removed~ from a given vpatch. [15:32]
asciilifeform oughta post this on therealbitcoin.org [15:32]
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asciilifeform wai wat [15:32]
asciilifeform skip? [15:32]
asciilifeform gotta also make sure that subsequent patches do not try to use a deleted file [15:33]
mod6 yeah, otherwise `sha512sum` returns "No such file found". [15:33]
asciilifeform (a patch that uses a deleted file can be legit so long as it is not on the tree branch that contained the deletion) [15:33]
asciilifeform thinkaboutit [15:34]
mod6 hmm. [15:34]
asciilifeform the other thing a vtron needs to handle is orphans [15:34]
asciilifeform if the toposort is correctly written, mod6's vtron ought to do it [15:34]
asciilifeform perhaps orphan is not the word [15:35]
asciilifeform but dead branches of the tree, basically [15:35]
mod6 disconnected graphs? [15:35]
asciilifeform nah those are yet another matter [15:36]
asciilifeform say we were to have a documentation dir [15:36]
asciilifeform that never existed before [15:36]
asciilifeform it would end up as an altogether other tree in the graph [15:36]
mod6 oh, i see, so like if a patch further down the line (in time) remove a file that a specific sub tree relies upon, that those become removed? [15:36]
asciilifeform mod6: nope [15:37]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> it would end up as an altogether other tree in the graph << so said patch to add documentation dir would be its own root? [15:38]
asciilifeform it would [15:38]
asciilifeform the only necessary change to make working with multiple trees convenient would be 'multi-press' where you specify more than one 'head' [15:39]
mod6 I guess that makes sense since it wouldn't share any antecedents with the original graph. [15:39]
asciilifeform aha [15:39]
mod6 Scenario: Guy creates vpatch that utilizes irc.h (removed in vpatch asciilifeform_ver_no_5_4_and_irc_is_gone_and_now_must_give_ip.vpatch) must ensure that Guy's patch is on it's own tree? [15:47]
asciilifeform no [15:47]
asciilifeform it splits off from the node immediately prior to the removal [15:47]
mod6 i haven't quite figured out what to do about this scenario yet. [15:47]
asciilifeform just as if i had cut out a single line of a single file, and a subsequent patch relies on that line. [15:47]
asciilifeform thinkaboutit [15:47]
asciilifeform also if you set your vtron to 'wild' mode you can trivially test various combos [15:48]
asciilifeform i did a good bit of this [15:48]
asciilifeform the only kind of thing that is 'in own tree' is a patch that has no common ancestor with ~anything~ in the genesis tree [15:48]
asciilifeform (ergo, has its own 'genesis' somewhere) [15:49]
mod6 ok. [15:49]
mod6 right. [15:49]
mod6 i thought 'wild' mode is simply when no one in wot has provided a seal corresponding to a given vpatch [15:49]
asciilifeform aha [15:49]
asciilifeform it is handy for testing a vtron [15:49]
asciilifeform because you can throw in any patches you like, made for the occasion of the test [15:50]
asciilifeform without having to sign them [15:50]
mod6 oh yeah, i see. [15:50]
mod6 for testing. etc. [15:50]
asciilifeform it was the only reason i had it. [15:50]
deedbot- [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Is it better to be a paternalistic colonialist or a patronising anti-colonialist? - http://www.contravex.com/2015/12/20/is-it-better-to-be-a-paternalistic-colonialist-or-a-patronising-anti-colonialist/ [15:51]
* mircea_popescu waves [15:52]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu ! [15:52]
mircea_popescu mircea_popescu: was that the new phuctor box? << nah, the old qntra cluster. makes it the 2nd time in about a month wtf. [15:53]
* asciilifeform pictures scene, mircea_popescu's servers in burlap sack on motorcycle, an old pier, a splash [15:53]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> it splits off from the node immediately prior to the removal << so in this scenario, the antecedents of asciilifeform_ver_no_5_4_and_irc_is_gone_and_now_must_give_ip.vpatch are [dns_thermonyukyoolar, rev-bump, static_makefile_v002, genesis ] [15:53]
mircea_popescu the high stakes game of world diplomacy and international intrigue! [15:54]
asciilifeform mod6: correct. and afaik this behaviour does not need any special cases [15:54]
mod6 so then those antecedents would point to the new vpatch (at the same node level as asciilifeform_ver_no_5_4_and_irc_is_gone_and_now_must_give_ip.vpatch) but a separate node. [15:54]
asciilifeform mod6: an odd way to phrase it (descendants point to ancestors, really) but yes. [15:55]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348422 << lol. what a dumbass name, too./ [15:55]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 15:35:20; jurov: " << MIT got inspired [15:55]
mod6 ah, yeah, sorry -- following the arrows in the graph. [15:55]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually i can hardly think of better name than 'vuvuzela' for a usg idiocy built solely to drown out intelligent thought [15:56]
asciilifeform bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzhhhhttt! [15:56]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: ahahaha right. let me know when you've seen geysers of shit spewing from your bathtub<<< i don't live in the fucking swamp. [15:56]
mod6 haha blow your vuvuzela [15:56]
mircea_popescu just because you can pump the shit uphill doesn't mean you should. [15:56]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform african innovation yes ? [15:56]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this was strictly downhill. known bug of 100-y.o. clay pipe: porous. roots follow gradient. [15:57]
mircea_popescu 100 yo ?! [15:57]
asciilifeform aha [15:57]
* mircea_popescu waves disinterestedly. waaaaaa [15:57]
asciilifeform (possibly not quite 100) [15:57]
mircea_popescu "The breach is believed to be the work of a foreign government, U.S. officials said, because of the sophistication involved. " << fucktards. [15:58]
asciilifeform city hall said '1920s' [15:58]
mircea_popescu governments trail in every measure of efficiency, efficacity, sophistication or otherwise success, yet the assumption is that hey, if it work it musta been a government. [15:58]
mircea_popescu memory hole ftw. [15:58]
asciilifeform ( old thread... http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-05-2014#689735 ) [15:59]
assbot Logged on 26-05-2014 18:58:27; asciilifeform: meanwhile! end of sewer saga: city excavated street, disassembled pipe, found tree roots behind the property line - which had become clogged with backed up crud (for the 30 hours or so the city's pipe was broken.) now they will fight with landlord's insurance co. [15:59]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform if you think what's wrong with infrastructure neglected for a century is the clay, or the trees, or the roots or the gradients you're a very special fellow. [15:59]
mircea_popescu otherwise, they get replaced. [15:59]
asciilifeform who ever replaces sewer pipe ? [15:59]
asciilifeform in what country ? [15:59]
mircea_popescu romania ? [15:59]
mircea_popescu everyone ? [15:59]
asciilifeform ah the place where some schmuck got sweeheart contract with city hall to dig up ~whole town~ ? [15:59]
mircea_popescu no, that's boston. [15:59]
mircea_popescu anyway, my story with buying a coupla cartons of cigs for convicts digging street up ? [16:00]
asciilifeform possibly [16:00]
mircea_popescu that was the job, replacing the main sewage line. last done in the 60s. [16:00]
asciilifeform neato [16:00]
asciilifeform incidentally the city line was fine [16:00]
mircea_popescu done more or less on a 30-40 year cycle. [16:00]
asciilifeform this was the house line [16:00]
asciilifeform which is behind property line and so never replaced by anybody [16:00]
mircea_popescu heh. [16:01]
mircea_popescu hire more realtors. [16:01]
mircea_popescu the work'll get done by itself. [16:01]
asciilifeform my brother sometimes asks 'have you dug latrine yet' [16:01]
asciilifeform and i answer, 'not ~yet~' [16:01]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348452 << nope. [16:02]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 17:07:47; asciilifeform: do i need to actually read this thing [16:02]
mircea_popescu but hey, they got a romanian too right ? must cunt for something. [16:02]
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* asciilifeform to his grief went and read [16:03]
asciilifeform quite barfalicious. [16:03]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348485 << hey, why ever fucking learn ? keep doing it. [16:04]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 17:26:51; punkman: "Instead of abusing the exploit i have decided to help Coinbase fix the exploit by telling them step to step instructions on how to reproduce the bug on hackerone. After they were able to fix the exploit i was rewarded a measly $5,000 bounty, which i thought was unfair and was expecting to get upwards of $25,000. I helped them fix something that could have damaged them in hundreds of [16:04]
mircea_popescu and pay your taxes, too. [16:04]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348500 << so be a mircea_popescu. the fucking point of the entire thing is for you to be a mircea_popescu. [16:05]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 18:05:28; asciilifeform: but it is also impossible ~with~ a wot, unless you are mircea_popescu and are in commerce with another mircea_popescu . [16:05]
asciilifeform ~~~ once upon a time, a disciple asked mircea_popescu: 'how do i become a mircea_popescu ?' [16:07]
asciilifeform and the master replied, [16:07]
asciilifeform 'every morning, when you wake up, look in the mirror; if you notice that you are not a mircea_popescu, [16:07]
asciilifeform take this Luger, and put it in your mouth, like so... [16:07]
asciilifeform by the next new moon, the remaining you will be a mircea_popescu . ~~~ [16:08]
jurov i'd say the answer was "beat the universe down till it allows you to be mircea_popescu" [16:08]
punkman I thought the point is to put in others' mouths [16:08]
asciilifeform also works [16:08]
asciilifeform either formula, depending on whether you wanna be an intro- or extro-verted mircea_popescu [16:09]
jurov http://img.appd.lengxiaohua.cn/2014/10/17/5440ffa3b45e1_o.gif or a family [16:12]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeKx89 ) [16:12]
asciilifeform aha. [16:12]
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asciilifeform ;;later tell jurov http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20151219/mempool_dev2_a654caa4f28ed6f78906fef28060c2f46470f067.patch << why not vpatch ? [16:25]
gribble The operation succeeded. [16:25]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeLBsD ) [16:25]
jurov if i come with something usable, then vpatch [16:26]
asciilifeform i was sorta having this thread with mod6 earlier: [16:26]
asciilifeform v does not imply 'carved in stone for the ages' [16:26]
asciilifeform it quite readily supports obsoleted mistakes and dead ends [16:26]
asciilifeform and in fact makes a convenient record of what's been tried and rejected [16:27]
asciilifeform (you simply end up with a dead branch on the tree) [16:27]
asciilifeform y'know, sorta like ye olde blockchain [16:27]
mircea_popescu well, be all that as it may, i do hope that before i die i reach that enchanted nirvana where i don't have to deal with anyone other than mps. [16:28]
asciilifeform now who doesn't dream of that ! [16:29]
mircea_popescu (you simply end up with a dead branch on the tree) << very much this [16:30]
mircea_popescu and thius is a good thing. [16:30]
asciilifeform was sorta the point of 'v' [16:30]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform: the other thing a vtron needs to handle is orphans << heh. [16:32]
asciilifeform afaik the only implementation that barfed from these is... mine [16:33]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348552 << im not sure this is such a good idea. conceptually it dillutes the whole notion, practically it makes cyclicity a nightmare. [16:33]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 18:36:38; asciilifeform: the only necessary change to make working with multiple trees convenient would be 'multi-press' where you specify more than one 'head' [16:33]
asciilifeform mod6's works iirc [16:33]
mircea_popescu how about you just add the documentation as a pathc. [16:33]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-08-2015#1248465 [16:33]
assbot Logged on 22-08-2015 18:25:35; asciilifeform: re: earlier thread: a few hours of thinking led me to another potential boojum in 'v' : cyclic graphs [16:33]
mircea_popescu only took me half a minute! [16:33]
mircea_popescu ha-HA! [16:34]
asciilifeform 1377 sk1lz [16:34]
mircea_popescu either that or the advantage of thinking in december vs august. [16:35]
asciilifeform anyway you don't get cycles unless somebody was a badboy [16:35]
mircea_popescu anyway. imo the english for lokalizatsiya provala would be "bug" [16:35]
asciilifeform mno [16:35]
mircea_popescu why mno! [16:36]
asciilifeform because that ain't it ? [16:36]
mircea_popescu yawell. [16:36]
asciilifeform prolly best translation is 'damage control' [16:36]
mircea_popescu normally this works by going A implies A', B implies non-A', [16:36]
mircea_popescu "operable cancer" so to speak. ie, it's margin-able. [16:38]
mircea_popescu that's what bug fundamentally means. [16:38]
mircea_popescu and hence the difference between software that's right, but buggy, and software that's simply wrong - and so can't even BE buggy. [16:38]
asciilifeform yeah but original term meant something specific, quite analogous to chopping off your own arm that's been bitten by a cobra etc [16:39]
mircea_popescu yaok [16:40]
punkman "containement" sounds close to me [16:42]
asciilifeform ^ [16:43]
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mircea_popescu provala still means failure right ? [16:45]
asciilifeform aha [16:45]
asciilifeform specifically tradecraft [16:45]
mircea_popescu so then. [16:46]
mircea_popescu hey, maybe the english word for it should be "bridget fonda" [16:46]
mircea_popescu in memory of that indigestible imbecileho from city hall who then got her just deserts in jackie brown [16:46]
mircea_popescu !up TheNewDeal [16:46]
-assbot- You voiced TheNewDeal for 30 minutes. [16:47]
* assbot gives voice to TheNewDeal [16:47]
TheNewDeal they're slowly cutting me off from resources [16:47]
* King_Rex has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [16:47]
mircea_popescu who an' what resources ? [16:47]
TheNewDeal I think it's the USA control bureau [16:48]
TheNewDeal like trilema [16:48]
mircea_popescu i c. [16:48]
TheNewDeal and I"m assuming it's the financials next [16:48]
TheNewDeal I believe that they used my family to set me up, and now they're going to punish me capitally for sending a bitcoin tx [16:50]
mircea_popescu seems a little far fetched doesn't it ? [16:51]
TheNewDeal not exactly [16:51]
TheNewDeal I was researching mpex moneys on the blockchain website [16:52]
mircea_popescu ok... [16:52]
TheNewDeal and I saw funds go from the usa bitcoin siezure into the mpex funds [16:52]
mircea_popescu you and at least ten thousand other peopl,e ? [16:52]
mircea_popescu of course ? [16:52]
mircea_popescu what else would you expect them to do with bitcoin ? send it to coinbase ? [16:52]
asciilifeform l0l!! [16:53]
asciilifeform !b 7 [16:54]
* assbot gives voice to TheNewDeal [16:54]
assbot Last 7 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0BZM2XF.txt ) [16:54]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00048493 = 32.6115 BTC [-] {2} [16:54]
* asciilifeform missed this l0lm0m3nt [16:55]
TheNewDeal have they always been using these mind manipulation tools in the US ascii? [16:55]
TheNewDeal like the ones that require a spectrum analyzer [16:55]
asciilifeform TheNewDeal: for some reason they never fire at folks who own a spectrum analyzer, even a very old and ratty one [16:55]
asciilifeform so i can't comment [16:55]
* asciilifeform will have to be driven mad with good old fashioned poison and shot with old-fashioned guns [16:56]
mircea_popescu no fun. [16:56]
asciilifeform aha, downer [16:56]
TheNewDeal I didn't think that sending a couple transactions would bring on this type of firepower from the US [16:57]
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mircea_popescu what, concretely ? [16:57]
mircea_popescu !up trader001 [16:57]
-assbot- You voiced trader001 for 30 minutes. [16:57]
* assbot gives voice to trader001 [16:57]
TheNewDeal what firepower? [16:57]
asciilifeform TheNewDeal: perhaps you're just for target practice, like most folk [16:57]
mircea_popescu yes TheNewDeal, you're being all vague and shit. [16:58]
TheNewDeal they had used mind control tools. they were literally prepping me with questions to talk to a psychiatrist the night before [16:58]
TheNewDeal and they could actually move my vocal cords and limbs as well [16:58]
trader001 did anyone buy for 436$ to go short? [16:58]
* assbot gives voice to Birdman [16:58]
TheNewDeal heart pumping as well [16:58]
Birdman TheNewDeal: It was explained to me as such, the unsustainable inefficient entity that is the USG probably isnt even capable of pulling off schemes like you suggest [16:59]
mircea_popescu trader001 you sell to go short, not buy. [16:59]
mircea_popescu TheNewDeal honestly, this sounds a lot more like a psychotic episode than anything in phenomenology. [16:59]
TheNewDeal Watch them, I'm guessing they're going to put up an impending court case against me in the United States [17:00]
trader001 sorry... I meant buy for 436 to do a little day trading [17:00]
asciilifeform how come nobody smears lsd on ~my~ doorknob, l0l [17:00]
mircea_popescu cuz you'd prolly sell it. [17:00]
asciilifeform with doorknob aha [17:01]
asciilifeform 'valuable usg doorknob!' [17:01]
TheNewDeal what about all this jazz going on worldwide [17:01]
TheNewDeal don't you think there's some sort of world war impending? [17:01]
mircea_popescu maybe. [17:01]
TheNewDeal or perhaps already on the rise [17:01]
mircea_popescu in fairness, ww1 was named by gallup poll, so [17:01]
Birdman There are no soldiers if there are no paychecks [17:02]
mircea_popescu ha-ha. [17:02]
mircea_popescu the best soldiers aren't mercs. [17:02]
* asciilifeform falls down [17:02]
TheNewDeal I'm telling you they used carbon monoxide training, or a similar gas on me in the hospital [17:02]
mircea_popescu what were you in teh hospital for ? [17:02]
TheNewDeal I checked myself in voluntarily [17:02]
TheNewDeal I tweaked after smoking some dope [17:02]
asciilifeform wai wut srsly [17:02]
mircea_popescu ok. and what's carbon monoxide training ? [17:02]
TheNewDeal they let out gas in the hospital [17:03]
TheNewDeal and I could see everyone coughing [17:03]
TheNewDeal like the staff [17:03]
mircea_popescu well, if they do it's not co. you don't cough from that. [17:03]
asciilifeform ^ [17:03]
mircea_popescu it's not in the slightest bit an irritant. [17:03]
TheNewDeal hmmm it seems i've been duped hardcore [17:03]
mircea_popescu in fact people routinely get poisoned with co and have not the slightest inkling. [17:04]
mircea_popescu hence "silent killer" [17:04]
TheNewDeal I would not trust my own transmissions in the future, I believe they've gained access to my keys [17:04]
mircea_popescu aite. [17:04]
asciilifeform is TheNewDeal 'calling in strike on own position' ? [17:04]
* asciilifeform takes off hat [17:05]
TheNewDeal what do ya mean? [17:05]
asciilifeform self-negrate [17:05]
mircea_popescu !rate mircea_popescu 10 best mircea_popescu i know! [17:05]
assbot You can not rate yourself. [17:05]
TheNewDeal can you send me the command, I am still used to the bitcoin otc web trust [17:05]
mircea_popescu pfff [17:05]
mircea_popescu in other news, http://45.media.tumblr.com/33e13281ec7e158dda7b52d242bcecf3/tumblr_mra2lo0HoZ1s8ztwao1_500.gif [17:06]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeOLg3 ) [17:06]
TheNewDeal !rate TheNewDeal potential USG spy, suspected terror alert [17:06]
assbot Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10. [17:06]
TheNewDeal !rate TheNewDeal -10 potential USG spy, suspected terror alert [17:06]
assbot You can not rate yourself. [17:06]
TheNewDeal I think they're using me to scare people away from bitcoin [17:06]
Birdman I think you need to calm down and get ahold of yourself mentally. Good god where's your fortitude man? [17:08]
TheNewDeal Who're you Birdman [17:08]
TheNewDeal I'll tell all of you where I live and my name and then they can watch for the news [17:08]
TheNewDeal I know you're trying to play me for a fool [17:10]
Birdman !gettrust thenewdeal [17:11]
assbot Trust relationship from user Birdman to user thenewdeal: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=Birdman&to=thenewdeal | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/thenewdeal/ [17:11]
TheNewDeal !rate Birdman 1 suspicious; keep friends and enemies close in the WOT [17:12]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a284b5fb194c89ae [17:12]
TheNewDeal Have you ever had a bunch of people in a room act to lead you on to do something? [17:13]
punkman TheNewDeal: what kind of dope did you smoke before checking in to the hospital? [17:15]
TheNewDeal I'm not entirely sure. Was probably just normal old weed [17:15]
TheNewDeal They're pushing it like hotcakes in the US right now [17:16]
TheNewDeal I think they're using it to fund their war on sound computer science [17:17]
TheNewDeal any other USians notice any chinese style firewalls occuring for websites like trilema? [17:18]
punkman just the good old ddos [17:18]
TheNewDeal it's been down for days for me [17:19]
TheNewDeal same for you? [17:19]
ben_vulpes !s my servers [17:19]
assbot 39 results for 'my servers' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=my+servers [17:19]
TheNewDeal DNS lookup failures for me [17:19]
ben_vulpes !s muh boxen [17:19]
assbot 2 results for 'muh boxen' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=muh+boxen [17:19]
ben_vulpes http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-12-2015#1348394 [17:20]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 12:29:21; mircea_popescu: in other news, sprint.pl "one the most advanced centers in Poland for data storage and processing, created in response to the growing demands of the market" ran off with muh boxen. [17:20]
ben_vulpes ^^ extraneous '/' in those urls, mthreat kakobrekla [17:20]
TheNewDeal anyways, I'll drop my story - back to business [17:20]
ben_vulpes TheNewDeal: mircea_popescu's boxes are getting stolen and you're complaining about a bad trip? [17:21]
ben_vulpes where's the "MPEx down for over a month in 2016" bet? [17:21]
TheNewDeal My sister almost got shot in that massacre in california as well [17:21]
TheNewDeal there's a lot of loose ends that are popping up for me [17:22]
ben_vulpes unrelatedly, how does one calculate the odds of mutually-exclusive outcomes from binary odds on each individual outcome? [17:22]
ben_vulpes ;;later tell mike_c ^^ [17:23]
gribble The operation succeeded. [17:23]
asciilifeform TheNewDeal: what means 'almost shot' ? bullet whistled by, took off hat ? [17:23]
ben_vulpes beyond that mircea_popescu and hanbot are probably the experts and asciilifeform might know the maths [17:23]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: wai wut [17:23]
asciilifeform sounds like you're describing an ordinary coin flip ? [17:24]
ben_vulpes take the odds on the republican election [17:24]
asciilifeform what next, odds of boxing match ? [17:25]
ben_vulpes unless i'm even wronger than normal that's not a clean mapping [17:25]
mircea_popescu I'll tell all of you where I live and my name and then they can watch for the news << alright ? [17:26]
ben_vulpes there are n candidates, each with individual odds of winning a competition. how do i derive odds on the whole field from those binary outcomes? [17:26]
mircea_popescu ahaha rthat sound cs bit is golden. i'm bashing [17:26]
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punkman !up dbclk [17:27]
* assbot gives voice to dbclk [17:27]
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punkman ben_vulpes: what is whole field? [17:28]
ben_vulpes rubio, trump, etc [17:28]
jurov ben_vulpes trump running solo is kinda.. ternary outcome, no? [17:28]
ben_vulpes jurov: please for to not be getting the pathological cases involved [17:29]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes there's going to be disagreement so you hafta reconcile numbers somehow. [17:29]
jurov they're not pathological, just black swans. with a toupee. [17:29]
ben_vulpes i guess i'm asking if there's a known closed-form solution to this question. [17:30]
ben_vulpes gold swans lol [17:30]
mircea_popescu for instance : if bet on tails is 50/40 btc and bet on heads is 42/49 btc, and they're both the same coin toss, then you could say it's (50+49)/(90+91) for tails.) [17:30]
mircea_popescu if your dice is more-than-two sided exactly nothing changes. [17:32]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33500 @ 0.00048945 = 16.3966 BTC [+] {2} [17:33]
* ben_vulpes needs a refresher in elementary statistics apparently [17:33]
mircea_popescu obviously, HOW you reconcile the numbers is an open question. [17:33]
mircea_popescu above, simple weighted averaging. if you have any knowledge of the field there's prolly a better curve to use [17:33]
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BingoBoingo ;;later tell TheNewDeal Have you considered lithium cooling for your brain to increase USG resistance? [18:08]
gribble The operation succeeded. [18:08]
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jurov BingoBoingo: why lithium? [18:09]
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jurov NaK is imo better, fluid at usual temps, brain can be immersed directly [18:11]
BingoBoingo jurov: AHA. I was just thinking something to reduce the voltages a bit, though too much lithium takes the action potentials up to 111eleventy!!! and seizures. [18:12]
BingoBoingo But as long as not too much safe. [18:12]
BingoBoingo Lithium's also the very rare psych drug that actually reduces suicide risk [18:14]
BingoBoingo when used that way [18:14]
* jurov took cooling a bit literally [18:14]
BingoBoingo It literally does that too [18:15]
jurov i'm drinking li mineral water too, when feel like it [18:15]
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BingoBoingo It's good stuff. Just doctor sort of lithium doses aren't very good for actual hot weather. That much of different salt really messes with the sweating and made for a miserable summer. [18:20]
BingoBoingo But that's when integer mmol/liter in the body is achived. [18:23]
BingoBoingo But you may be right NaK look very promising for immersion cooling [18:27]
mod6 asciilifeform: ok. i'll think about how to implement these changes to V. right now, im not sure. [18:28]
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BingoBoingo "Somehow this soft suburban environment and two witlessly loving parents who trusted friends, relatives, teachers and neighbors with their oldest son, resulted in a violent psychopath. " >> http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=3490 [18:38]
assbot JL: Action Sites, Childhood ... ( http://bit.ly/22iVpcc ) [18:38]
BingoBoingo #CarLivesMatter http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/officer-in-vonderrit-myers-jr-fatal-shooting-resigns-after-crashing/article_65067ac6-969a-5977-8a3c-839242bdd075.html [18:41]
assbot Officer in VonDerrit Myers Jr. fatal shooting resigns after crashing car; drunk driving probe opened : News ... ( http://bit.ly/1meqCfW ) [18:41]
BingoBoingo "When police responded to the accident, a witness said a police car had caused the damage and fled." [18:41]
mod6 ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, asciilifeform: what are we to do about the deps for buildroot? [18:47]
mod6 I've been in halt mode for a week now, not sure if this has been sorted yet. [18:47]
mircea_popescu probably will end up having to freeze a specified set. [18:47]
mircea_popescu "clingwrap" as it's apparently called. [18:47]
BingoBoingo 2.4.x kernel? *crosses fingers* [18:47]
mod6 2.4 was ubercrasher for me [18:48]
mircea_popescu the question's thorny enough [18:50]
mod6 so I think programatically I have it worked out on how to make this happen, was about to test last weekend? lemme dig up the logs on this. [18:51]
ben_vulpes freeze 'em. [18:51]
mircea_popescu in other news, one inch of costa rica coffee, three inches of milk, a pinch of black sugar, three drops of vanilla oil (actual!), four ice-cubes and havana club anejo especial (genuine) qs makes the god-damnedest... bootleg kalhua let's call it/ [18:51]
ben_vulpes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRH-Ywpz1_I [18:51]
assbot Mr. Freeze's Puns - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1mer6CN ) [18:51]
mod6 <+ben_vulpes> freeze 'em. << what is specifically meant by this? [18:52]
mod6 dl'em, sign 'em, hash 'em, put 'em in a manifest and distribute? [18:52]
mod6 (& host 'em) [18:53]
mod6 or re-package the entire source under our own "fork" of these pacakages? [18:53]
mircea_popescu prolly the latter. [18:54]
ben_vulpes well yes, source of all the deps right? are we biting off buildroot as well? [18:54]
mod6 my original idea was the former. [18:54]
ben_vulpes i'm leaning towards a 'monorepo' [18:54]
mod6 but then alf said it's not ``'V'ifiable'' or something of the kind. [18:54]
mircea_popescu it would be so good if this "import" model of software died. [18:54]
mircea_popescu of course... not trivial [18:54]
ben_vulpes simply because every additional http call to get another bundle of source is another weak link, another hole for the night etc [18:55]
ben_vulpes plus yeah, we have V, why not really tax it. [18:55]
mircea_popescu well no. every additional http call to get anothe rbundle is nothing [18:55]
mircea_popescu the FIRST cal however, is an infinity of leaks. [18:55]
mircea_popescu this is how the cancer spread in the first place [18:56]
mircea_popescu "you're a whore now anyway, baby, so why not suck this cock" [18:56]
ben_vulpes one could stick source dependencies into some "lib" dir, wire that into the builder, update the scripts and then produce some new patches with the entire world, right? [18:57]
ben_vulpes only question in my mind is if we stick linus' kernel in there too. [18:57]
asciilifeform i go pet a pet for an hour and come back to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348866 [18:59]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:45:00; BingoBoingo: 2.4.x kernel? *crosses fingers* [18:59]
mod6 I think this was the conversation from a few weeks ago: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-12-2015#1340754 [18:59]
assbot Logged on 11-12-2015 02:21:30; mod6: so what I'm hoping to accomplish here is to alter the .mk files that accompany buildroot, so they pull the 3rd party reqs directly from the foundation site instead of wherever they currently point to. [18:59]
asciilifeform ferfuxsake 2.4 doesn't run on anything one might care to run today [18:59]
asciilifeform where did this crack smoke even come from [18:59]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348856 << i'm not actually sure whether it needs any change [19:00]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:25:44; mod6: asciilifeform: ok. i'll think about how to implement these changes to V. right now, im not sure. [19:00]
BingoBoingo I might have been a while since I paid attention to Linux kernel versions [19:01]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348879 << buildroot, iirc, will load tarballs from a local dir if they are present [19:01]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:51:10; ben_vulpes: well yes, source of all the deps right? are we biting off buildroot as well? [19:01]
mod6 think its worthwhile just to put out the changes for V to have the checking of the hashes in place, while skipping over any "b" that is false? (files that since been deleted?) [19:01]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348882 << i said this because a GB of c source IS NOT ANYTHING-IFYABLE [19:01]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:51:41; mod6: but then alf said it's not ``'V'ifiable'' or something of the kind. [19:01]
asciilifeform you can build it (if lucky) AND THAT'S ABOUT IT [19:01]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348879 << buildroot, iirc, will load tarballs from a local dir if they are present << yeah I think it does this from the 'dl' directory [19:02]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:51:10; ben_vulpes: well yes, source of all the deps right? are we biting off buildroot as well? [19:02]
asciilifeform i picked buildroot because it was the ONLY practical solution to letting folks who had not dedicated their lives to self-torture build a reasonable self-contained linux for $weirdcpu [19:02]
asciilifeform rather than it being any kind of long-term answer to ANYTHING. [19:02]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348882 << i said this because a GB of c source IS NOT ANYTHING-IFYABLE << i may have mis-remembered this or conflated it with something else. [19:02]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:51:41; mod6: but then alf said it's not ``'V'ifiable'' or something of the kind. [19:02]
asciilifeform no mod6 remembers correctly [19:03]
asciilifeform i said that buildroot is not really v-ifiable. [19:03]
asciilifeform because it is not human-edible. [19:03]
asciilifeform (and, note, there is NO known alternative to it) [19:03]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: so buildroot is out of scope then. [19:03]
asciilifeform i did try netbsd, which has all of the same necessary attributes, BUT lacked essential drivers [19:03]
asciilifeform netbsd is - potentially - v-ifyable. [19:04]
ben_vulpes (the kernel line was a joke, but whatever) [19:04]
asciilifeform i even ported it to motherfucking pogo [19:04]
asciilifeform BUT i never finished the nand support. [19:04]
asciilifeform because... takes actual work [19:04]
asciilifeform incidentally the de-glibc-ized trb WILL run on netbsd now! [19:04]
ben_vulpes aaaa [19:05]
asciilifeform this experiment, if anyone recalls, is how i discovered the libc crud to begin with [19:05]
ben_vulpes too much problem surface area! [19:05]
asciilifeform see logz. [19:05]
ben_vulpes dependencies to freeze: bdb, boost, openssl [19:06]
ben_vulpes none of those are really human-verifiable either. [19:06]
ben_vulpes (shiva-verifiable, perhaps) [19:06]
asciilifeform if i ever sign a bdb, boost, or openssl as 'honestly reviewed this' please shoot me [19:07]
mod6 they're all a can-o-worms [19:07]
ben_vulpes how to bridge the gap between 'v means i read and agree' vs. 'we need the source for these deps in the v-tree'? [19:07]
asciilifeform v the tarball hashes. [19:08]
mod6 or simply just a manifest of tarballs/deps required for the one-button-push deployment of trb [19:09]
mod6 v'd [19:09]
asciilifeform i may have said this before, but it bears repeating - some folks might be labouring under unrealistic expectations re: what is possible with the reference trb. [19:09]
asciilifeform imho it has strictly two uses, 1) REFERENCE for writing an actual bitcoinatron, which is ~why i asked for it~ 2) keep the continuity flame burning until we can have 1 [19:10]
asciilifeform possibly also 3) tx value/byte ordering --- but i'd put that under 2 [19:11]
shinohai http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348925 /me has been unsuccessful building trb on any bsd as of yet [19:12]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 22:01:59; asciilifeform: incidentally the de-glibc-ized trb WILL run on netbsd now! [19:12]
asciilifeform shinohai: build static for linux and use compat layer [19:12]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: it's 2 that makes me want to vendor dependency sources. [19:13]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it is both necessary and easy [19:13]
asciilifeform and iirc mod6 already did it [19:13]
asciilifeform just hash the contents of buildroot's cache dir [19:13]
asciilifeform but notably, the result is NOT something that anybody will dive into and clean up trb-style [19:13]
ben_vulpes our current vendoring goes and pulls that from thebitcoin.foundation, right? [19:14]
asciilifeform (go and try) [19:14]
asciilifeform but yes, fetching tarballs from the net during a build is retarded [19:14]
ben_vulpes implies deps on dns, net, a million failure points. [19:14]
asciilifeform whole thing gotta ride in one ball [19:14]
asciilifeform and be cd-ifying [19:14]
asciilifeform *cd-ifyable [19:14]
asciilifeform a la openbsd. [19:14]
asciilifeform then we can have cd pressed, at some point, and distribute ANY AND ALL changes as vpatches. [19:15]
ben_vulpes we'll need to v everything [19:15]
asciilifeform pressing of cd was perhaps the ONE good idea in openbsd [19:15]
ben_vulpes unless we want seperate v 'repos' for each dep for distributing patches to those libs [19:15]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: all the deps, really, are on the chopping block [19:16]
asciilifeform boost is - per my current estimate - removable if we're willing to replace boostisms with c++11isms [19:16]
asciilifeform openssl is removable as per yesterday's thread (and the three or four similar old threadz) [19:16]
asciilifeform bdb is removable if anybody dares [19:17]
asciilifeform alternatively the whole orchestra is removable if somebody finds a bag of gold [19:17]
asciilifeform etc. [19:17]
ben_vulpes it's vastly more likely that someone's going to need to crap out a patch for eg openssl than replace it wholesale. [19:18]
asciilifeform i ain't patching openssl. [19:18]
ben_vulpes et al [19:18]
asciilifeform medicine for a corpse. [19:18]
mod6 yeah, i think we need to write our own crypto lib [19:18]
mod6 in the end. [19:18]
ben_vulpes and just the likelihood of that happening makes me want those under v. [19:19]
mod6 as crazy as that might be [19:19]
ben_vulpes yeah we might get there and again stan might get hit by a bus tomorrow [19:19]
asciilifeform mod6: we need to write own everything. long before the end. [19:21]
mod6 agreed. [19:21]
asciilifeform and my bus is virtually guaranteed to appear before all of this is over. [19:21]
asciilifeform so nobody should be slacking. [19:21]
* asciilifeform bbl. [19:22]
mod6 i don't think anyone is slacking. [19:22]
* ben_vulpes will sign off on tarballs and v'd hashes thereof. [19:22]
mod6 there's just a ton of stuff to do, 'tis all. [19:22]
* thestringpuller starts humming "Sweet Life" in front of mod6 [19:22]
thestringpuller ;;later tell pete_dushenski Did charlie just steal your article? https://medium.com/@SatoshiLite/eating-the-bitcoin-cake-fc2b4ebfb85e#.7l1nrx2a9 [19:24]
gribble The operation succeeded. [19:24]
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mod6 so just to be clear, so I'm not holding anything up here; hashes of the following tarballs in V: BDB, openssl, and boost. [19:25]
mod6 buildroot + its deps included in this list? [19:25]
ben_vulpes negative. [19:26]
mod6 so just those three then? and the rest are outside the scope then. [19:28]
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mod6 Alright, good talk. [19:30]
ben_vulpes yeah i didn't hear anything from asciilifeform to the contrary [19:31]
jurov btw, i'm testing unchanged same code as i posted with jemalloc and zapmempool does shrink RSS by 50MB [19:32]
jurov so maybe we end up with malloc library, too... at least till mempool is completely redone [19:33]
jurov http://www.colorforth.com/1percent.html haha dude asks we give him a problem [19:39]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1m2hXO2 ) [19:39]
jurov i can think of one :D [19:39]
jurov "But don't expect me to read the C, I couldn't." [19:42]
jurov "but hey, this isn't C, but C++". *meltdown* [19:43]
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jurov !up samO [19:47]
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adlai "As an infix language, it encourages nested parentheses. Sometimes to a ludicrous extent. They must be counted and balanced." << some maintain that even prefix notation has this effect... [19:48]
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adlai the culprit is variadicity, syntax is a lot easier when all operators have known 'stack effect' [19:49]
adlai http://www.colorforth.com/map.htm << somebody shares alf's dataflow dreams [19:58]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1m2k4S0 ) [19:58]
ben_vulpes god bless chuck [20:01]
ben_vulpes legend has it that he reprogrammed hung satellites on the fly with forth [20:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33350 @ 0.00048772 = 16.2655 BTC [-] {2} [20:02]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8750 @ 0.00048773 = 4.2676 BTC [+] [20:48]
mircea_popescu in other news, the oh in ohio is a pretty decent movie. [21:03]
mircea_popescu only question in my mind is if we stick linus' kernel in there too. <<< eventually ;/ [21:04]
mircea_popescu what, we only 0.01% of the engineers we need, why not make it 0.00001% ? [21:04]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-12-2015#1348882 << i said this because a GB of c source IS NOT ANYTHING-IFYABLE << it's a starting point. you know, just like bitcoin-shitcore. [21:05]
assbot Logged on 20-12-2015 21:51:41; mod6: but then alf said it's not ``'V'ifiable'' or something of the kind. [21:05]
mircea_popescu incidentally the de-glibc-ized trb WILL run on netbsd now! << o hey! [21:06]
mircea_popescu you know we really need a lot better communication for these things. [21:07]
mircea_popescu ;;later tell pete_dushenski yo start communicatin' before you get excommunicated! [21:07]
gribble The operation succeeded. [21:07]
mircea_popescu how to bridge the gap between 'v means i read and agree' vs. 'we need the source for these deps in the v-tree'? <<< " I signed this because we need the source for this shit. I didn't read it, I don't need to read it to tell you it's shit." [21:08]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform> pressing of cd was perhaps the ONE good idea in openbsd <<< certainly not a bad one. [21:09]
thestringpuller what's going on with qntra? is it dns this time? [21:11]
mircea_popescu you gotta read the logs [21:12]
mircea_popescu so maybe we end up with malloc library, too... at least till mempool is completely redone <<< ahahahaha [21:12]
mircea_popescu this shit is so ridiculous by now... [21:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15900 @ 0.00048493 = 7.7104 BTC [-] {2} [21:15]
deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Bitcoin to top $800 before Jul 2016 - http://bitbet.us/bet/1233/bitcoin-to-top-800-before-jul-2016/#b18 [21:18]
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mircea_popescu that's brave [21:26]
mircea_popescu ;;bc,stats [21:27]
gribble Current Blocks: 389433 | Current Difficulty: 9.34486707963238E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 391103 | Next Difficulty In: 1670 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [21:27]
mircea_popescu "Sadly, that is not an undesirable result. Bloated code does not just keep programmers employed, but managers and whole companies, internationally. Compact code would be an economic disaster. Because of its savings in team size, development time, storage requirements and maintainance cost." [21:29]
mircea_popescu heh. he's right there. it would be an pseudo-economic disaster, in the sense "economic" has come to carry in the world of "we just wanted to" and "we have come to expect". [21:29]
mircea_popescu meanwhile a whole lot of "global warming" snake oilmanship and heaps upon heaps of idle handwringing about various restatements of the "ecology" problem. [21:29]
mircea_popescu nobody cares to look at the root causes. "hey derps ? you're being as inefficient as humanly possible" "well of course, any other course would be an economic disaster" "your idea of economy is like a rat's idea of hygiene : the more sewers the better" "so ?" [21:30]
mircea_popescu "It is in a programmer's best interest to exaggerate the complexity of his program." [21:32]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19798 @ 0.00048925 = 9.6862 BTC [+] {2} [21:32]
mircea_popescu and in anatomy class news, http://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdselsxkRs1rqpz2lo1_r1_500.gif [21:38]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1IiDdsK ) [21:38]
ben_vulpes the mess of complexity in development (not just 'web', chil'ren) is very very similar to the argentine problem of everyone believing their flats are worth all that us paper. [21:41]
ben_vulpes i don't see a macri coming by to devalue the webstack though. have been struggling to cook up the scenario wherein the world's managers declare technological bankruptcy and completely failing. [21:42]
mircea_popescu quite. [21:42]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes that scenario is very similar to mp going "i'm paying 1 btc for wuille's death cert". [21:42]
mircea_popescu exactly in the same way "development" is similar to "argentina" [21:43]
mircea_popescu at some point and on some level the nude reality of "this guy wants you dead. no, he doesn't think you did a great thing. he doesn't even think you're 'not worth hiring' or even worth zero. he thinks you're so far under 0 it can't be put in other words". and "aaaah, he's crazy" only goes so far. [21:45]
deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Bitcoin to top $1,000 before Jul 2016 - http://bitbet.us/bet/1234/bitcoin-to-top-1-000-before-jul-2016/#b16 [21:45]
* ben_vulpes looks forward to mp's contract for the death of modern web tech [21:47]
mircea_popescu the way this shitshow worked is that every single fucking derp running the "changing the world" pseudo-entrepreneurial circuit is trying to encapsulate a short perl program into "a website" and then "sell it" to "a market". because fuck me, seriously, there's now "a market" for five awk calls. every single fucking "service" and "idea" and "product" and bullshit out there looking for "investment" is really a glorified p [21:48]
mircea_popescu ile of three curls and a grep. [21:48]
mircea_popescu amusingly enough, this isn't the first pass of this nonsense. bill gates built microsoft out of the exactly same idiocy. [21:48]
mircea_popescu so, on its own terms, in its own time, it just sinks further into this shitpit. [21:48]
* ben_vulpes afk, will follow along via ipnohe [21:49]
mircea_popescu about as sterile as it gets, except for the part where it drives the emotions of the mob into max gear. [21:49]
mircea_popescu just look at this fucking derp, he's a fine example as can be imagined : 1) http://fridriksson.tumblr.com/post/86584610871/a-startup-postmortem-with-a-happy-ending-in ; 2) https://medium.com/@tfridriksson/when-your-startup-runs-out-of-money-you-only-got-1-problem-f84cad5b0f79 [21:52]
assbot A startup postmortem with a happy ending? ..in... | By the Beard of Zeus! ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nvz17S ) [21:52]
assbot When your startup runs out of money you only got 1 problem — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1IiExvU ) [21:52]
mircea_popescu so 1st, he's going to "sell" the genius "service" of literally a half hour's worth of perling around. and goes through all the motion as if this nonsense were genuinely a business, and had anything to do with money, employment, the works. [21:52]
mircea_popescu THEN when that boring shit goes nowhere, he convinces some misfortunate borderlines to... go live in thailand! because totally, shit'll make sense there. [21:53]
mircea_popescu shit doesn't make sense there, chiefly because wtf, it's still a pointless perl script nobody cares about. so he... [21:53]
mircea_popescu well he moves on to medium, and keeps at it. one of these days, if he wishes it hard enough, someone somewhere is going to trade actual bowls of soup and actual bong hits and so forth for some shit he found on a hard drive in the garbage dump. [21:54]
mircea_popescu how's he not better, how's he different from every afrigan goat ex-herder (the flood/drought/global warming/xenu killed the goats) that's now a garbage trawler ? [21:55]
mircea_popescu same pipe dream, really. [21:55]
* assbot gives voice to gabrielradio [21:59]
gabrielradio http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-12-2015#1338679 << besides buenos aires, which other cities would qualify? [22:00]
assbot Logged on 07-12-2015 23:39:51; mircea_popescu: for this reason. the fundamental incentive to living anywhere is whether you can stick it to the middle class through this mechanism or not. if you can't, they can stew in their own juices and play mahjong or whatever the fuck they play, bingo. [22:00]
mircea_popescu gabrielradio any place that currently has currency controls in place is a good bet ; any place where rents are below cover value (romania - perhaps with the exception of bucharest - is a fine example here). any country with a weak central government (the ones with a strong central government don't have a middle class by definition). on it goes. [22:01]
mircea_popescu any place where your fiance (that's only had sex with like... 2 guys before you, and you're the best, and her father paid for her college) doesn't want to go but the stripper you met yesterday does. [22:03]
mircea_popescu many heuristics. [22:03]
gabrielradio the last one is particularly instructive [22:04]
gabrielradio http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-12-2015#1338673 << heh you sure practice what you preach http://trilema.com/doua-fete-argumentul-economic [22:05]
assbot Logged on 07-12-2015 23:34:54; mircea_popescu: and if you want actual numbers, i just got a coupla girlies an apt. the sale value would have been i guess 160-170k or so. the monthly rent is 750. the first month, the washing machine went, and the owner replaced it. the next month, ac went (brother was that an incredible pos job wow), owner replaced it. so far owner's been making 0 from his property. [22:05]
mircea_popescu yeah. [22:06]
mircea_popescu incredibly enough. [22:06]
gabrielradio ima translate that once trilema is back up [22:07]
mircea_popescu shouldn't be long. [22:07]
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mircea_popescu !up zoidy [22:15]
-assbot- You voiced zoidy for 30 minutes. [22:15]
* assbot gives voice to zoidy [22:15]
thestringpuller mircea_popescu: wouldn't half of africa fit this bill? [22:19]
mircea_popescu possibly. [22:20]
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liquidassets date=18-12-2015#1346518 << Maybe why I walk around with this shit eating grin all the time.. [22:24]
liquidassets http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=18-12-2015#1346518 [22:25]
assbot Logged on 18-12-2015 15:44:18; mircea_popescu: by this reasoning food is "motly shit already" anyway. [22:25]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13250 @ 0.00048936 = 6.484 BTC [+] {2} [22:26]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21865 @ 0.00048493 = 10.603 BTC [-] {2} [22:31]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38300 @ 0.00048492 = 18.5724 BTC [-] {3} [22:56]
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mircea_popescu freedom's just another word.... http://40.media.tumblr.com/4c8a0c0bd8d6e55da3a02ccf28b84f9f/tumblr_msgliomSm21qzaw65o1_1280.jpg [23:05]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1J1kHoN ) [23:05]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36900 @ 0.00049093 = 18.1153 BTC [+] {2} [23:41]
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