Forum logs for 19 Jul 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70850 @ 0.00056107 = 39.7518 BTC [+] {2} [00:00]
mod6 punkman: I get this error when I try to compile with your patch http://dpaste.com/11G00N1.txt [00:01]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1VfZqe2 ) [00:01]
mod6 And for something that's really making my head scratch.. [00:02]
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mod6 when I compile with my rm_gitignore patch (http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000125.html) it fails! [00:02]
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mod6 http://dpaste.com/3QRQHKN.txt [00:03]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1VfZCKv ) [00:03]
mod6 does any one have any clue why removing .gitignore files would cause this?! [00:03]
mod6 bascially, what I do is; extract v0.5.3.1, patch up through -verifyall then apply the rm_gitignore patch. then this ^^ [00:04]
mod6 wtf [00:04]
mod6 oh hmm, for some reason, i don't understand this (maybe someone can look at my patch and tell me why??) but apparently not only were the .gitignore files removed, but the directories were too. [00:07]
mod6 lol. own patch rejected. [00:10]
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decimation !up hazirafel [00:14]
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mod6 so yah, looks like the patch blows away the obj/nogui dir along with the .gitignore file (it's the only file in the dir at the time - a clue maybe?) but if replaced, the compiles fine. [00:15]
mod6 does anyone see a reason to keep src/obj-test and src/obj/test ? [00:15]
mod6 i think those can actually go away, but src/obj/nogui/ needs to stay. [00:16]
mod6 will resubmit. [00:16]
mod6 after an actual test. [00:16]
mod6 i guess src/obj-test needs to stay because of the test stubs & it's ref'd in the makefile. that's fine. [00:18]
decimation http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-07-2015#1182288 < my 'stator' finally completed blk0008.dat, got f7ab989febce649e49f8373f1c5a5fbd44008dd21eaf16ce0d1b73e1070421f0 [00:18]
assbot Logged on 01-07-2015 02:54:25; mod6: huh, now i have one chain that has 2 that match and one that differs: f7ab989febce649e49f8373f1c5a5fbd44008dd21eaf16ce0d1b73e1070421f0 blk0008.dat && b1d0da3ff6b2b2d6da096f06cf7359ca98e08490ab61202f94468587f51aaee5 blk0008.dat [00:18]
mod6 thx decimation [00:19]
mod6 I don't see any ref's in the makefile to src/obj/test [00:20]
mod6 i think that one can go away ^^ [00:20]
mod6 maybe i should just leave it for now. [00:20]
decimation I haven't looked into that [00:21]
decimation re: porsche inflation < http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/03/nyregion/manhattan-real-estate-market-surging-at-years-end.html "Those deals helped push the median sales price for Manhattan condos, including resales, up 14.3 percent to a record $1,320,000, according to the Elliman report." (year 2013) [00:24]
assbot Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnXPYu ) [00:24]
decimation also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-03-2015#1042566 [00:37]
assbot Logged on 05-03-2015 04:41:23; decimation: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102477304 < "When it comes to price growth, however, New York topped the list for prime property worldwide, according to Knight Frank. Prices jumped 18 percent in New York in 2014. Aspen, Colorado, ranked second, with prices up 16 percent." [00:37]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9550 @ 0.00054873 = 5.2404 BTC [-] [00:39]
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mod6 this problem is really goofy. [00:50]
mod6 i can't get it to remove the file and leave the dir, or to just truncate the file and leave the dir. [00:50]
mod6 lol [00:50]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43000 @ 0.0005484 = 23.5812 BTC [-] {2} [00:52]
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mod6 so that isn't gonna work. [01:01]
mod6 if anyone has any ideas on this, let me know. im stumped [01:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16501 @ 0.00053764 = 8.8716 BTC [-] [01:05]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20599 @ 0.00053728 = 11.0674 BTC [-] {2} [01:19]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19801 @ 0.00053289 = 10.5518 BTC [-] {2} [01:20]
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mod6 `man 1 patch`: -E When patch removes a file, it also attempts to remove any empty ancestor directories. << i can't get it to leave the empty dirs. [01:29]
mod6 perhaps we just don't use my submitted patch and then I just prune the baracles by hand in the release source base. [01:30]
mod6 leaving the necessary directories. [01:30]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24600 @ 0.00055628 = 13.6845 BTC [+] {2} [01:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22775 @ 0.00053863 = 12.2673 BTC [-] {2} [01:53]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29564 @ 0.00054985 = 16.2558 BTC [+] {2} [02:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33967 @ 0.00055763 = 18.941 BTC [+] {3} [02:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20850 @ 0.00055783 = 11.6308 BTC [+] [02:45]
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ben_vulpes mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps? [03:18]
ben_vulpes btw is it me or was linus retarded for making git work in such a way that one has to stick a file in a dir to get git to keep it around? [03:18]
ben_vulpes AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails? [03:18]
ben_vulpes the mind boggles [03:18]
* ben_vulpes back to drinking with crazyfam [03:19]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30450 @ 0.00054694 = 16.6543 BTC [-] {2} [03:50]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4950 @ 0.00055783 = 2.7613 BTC [+] [04:02]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16100 @ 0.00054538 = 8.7806 BTC [-] [04:27]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3290 @ 0.00054346 = 1.788 BTC [-] [04:43]
punkman mod6: punkman: I get this error when I try to compile with your patch http://dpaste.com/11G00N1.txt << strange [04:59]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGLs5B ) [04:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00055783 = 10.4872 BTC [+] [05:07]
punkman oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry! [05:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7090 @ 0.00055471 = 3.9329 BTC [-] [05:18]
gribble qntra.net is down [05:20]
mircea_popescu jurov myeah atm being ddos'd on like 4 ips [05:24]
mircea_popescu i guess ima just buy a c block [05:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13340 @ 0.00055783 = 7.4415 BTC [+] [05:26]
jurov how would that help? [05:27]
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jurov looks like you'll end up with content distribution network and that does not need one c block [05:28]
mircea_popescu nah [05:29]
mircea_popescu im all for it, let the guy waste his botnet time on qntra, 255 ips at a time, 65536 ips at a time, whatever. [05:29]
mircea_popescu not like he's doing any damage to anything but himself. [05:29]
jurov you think it's ionly some kids that will exhaust their resources soon? [05:30]
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* mircea_popescu shrugs. [05:31]
jurov otherwise your whole C or even D block may get null routed instead... [05:31]
mircea_popescu notrly how this works. [05:31]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27513 @ 0.00055471 = 15.2617 BTC [-] [05:41]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26200 @ 0.00055783 = 14.6151 BTC [+] {2} [05:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00055922 = 16.9164 BTC [+] {4} [06:22]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16726 @ 0.00056182 = 9.397 BTC [+] [06:47]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10250 @ 0.00056131 = 5.7534 BTC [-] [07:48]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43850 @ 0.00055825 = 24.4793 BTC [-] [07:55]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26811 @ 0.00055914 = 14.9911 BTC [+] {2} [08:00]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19489 @ 0.00056284 = 10.9692 BTC [+] [08:01]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206064 << sounds yummy. i'll be attempting deployment and report. [08:06]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:10:58; mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so what's the plan, turning stator into a release ? << Yeah. I believe 'stator' + { eat/dump block, rm testnet & verifyall } should be the 5.4 release unless anything additional is submitted before we can finish testing & bundling release. [08:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28847 @ 0.00055459 = 15.9983 BTC [-] {2} [08:07]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14253 @ 0.00055314 = 7.8839 BTC [-] [08:08]
mircea_popescu http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2015/07/18/what-other-currencies-besides-bitcoin-have-experienced-inverse-debasement-basement/comment-page-1/#comment-267798 for teh lulz [08:14]
assbot Philip Greenspun's Weblog » What other currencies besides Bitcoin have experienced inverse debasement? (“basement”?) ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGSg3h ) [08:14]
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mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205907 << yeah obviously you gotta freeze and release now and again. [08:30]
assbot Logged on 18-07-2015 18:33:59; mod6: Anyway, most of the submissions so far have been pretty top notch. We want to encourage people in the WoT to submit patches. If something is submitted but doesn't make it into a release right away, that certainly doesn't mean it won't be pulled in to a later milestone. [08:30]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205926 << word. [08:30]
assbot Logged on 18-07-2015 19:07:35; ben_vulpes: I'd really like the debug.log to be parseable, that's the main motivation here << this is an excellent goal. a+ if you crap out an EBNF to go along with it, instead of some "protocol is in the code" parser script. [08:30]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1206026 not even a bad idea, at that. [08:34]
assbot Logged on 18-07-2015 21:38:39; felipelalli: keep both online, but when the free version is being attacked at least you have an alternative [08:34]
mircea_popescu i guess we're all just holding our breaths for the gossipd [08:35]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206063 << not like there's an obligation on the part of anyone to sign. if people are happy with what signatures they see, they can use. if not, not. [08:37]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; ascii_modem: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205870 << wai wut - ?? - no one signed that he has read, tested - and straight to release? [08:37]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206080 << lawds have mercies. [08:38]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 00:41:04; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell solrodar hey man i need a hand compiling boost in order to test your callgraph visualizer [08:38]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206120 <<< someone gets it [08:39]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 01:18:02; ben_vulpes: anyways, the drivetrain is incorrect. yes, electrical drive is fantastic for the low-end torque, but regen brakes of engineering necessity must clamp down insanely hard in order to maximize current out of the machines. [08:39]
mircea_popescu there are TONS of such problems with the thing. not that they're necessarily unresolvable - maybe they'll get fixed. they won't get fixed however for a pet project that goes about as far as the "be an astronaut" curios. [08:40]
punkman fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches [08:40]
mircea_popescu if you can make a strong statement about some/all, signing's not a bad idea. [08:41]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206146 << i've been mulling over this the whole fucking day, incidentally. if i were ceo of any automaker and the new model made the old models go up in price, i would on the spot fire the entire design team. [08:42]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 01:31:55; pete_dushenski: easily 2-2.5x 2010 prices. easily. [08:42]
punkman I'm [08:42]
mircea_popescu with actual kicks to the backside, no joking around. "you are done in this industry and your mothers should be ashamed of fucking drunks" [08:42]
mircea_popescu and this because if i were the board of an automaker where this happened and the ceo failed to so fire the design team, i'd so fire the ceo. [08:42]
mircea_popescu this is failure of an unprecedented scale, i'm not even sure it can be put into words what exactly it means. [08:43]
mircea_popescu it is in fact the superlative failure. [08:43]
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mircea_popescu an' in other news, http://31.media.tumblr.com/6c78f64a9cf079591e14000cf747ece1/tumblr_n2hiv0hJsV1ra163eo7_r1_500.gif [08:51]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1J97Fnw ) [08:51]
* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [16:51]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com || http://log.bitcoin-assets.com || http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com || http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com [16:51]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014 [16:51]
-assbot- Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice. [16:51]
decimation maybe even $$ tril [16:51]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform well the whole thing's a parody. [16:51]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform well the whole thing's a parody. [16:52]
mircea_popescu anyway, wanted to see i can first take down random sites with it [16:52]
mircea_popescu not like you're going to see it on wh.gov [16:52]
decimation you did force the attacker to lay down one card [16:53]
mircea_popescu 23.45.18.92 pings just fine. honestly it'd be sad if it didn't. [16:54]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206352 << obviously, inasmuch as they're the result of lengthy consideration / involved discussion here, their unexpected downsides shouldn't be expected to be provided by us. [16:56]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 18:26:59; asciilifeform: i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those [16:56]
mircea_popescu apparently either there's none or everyone else in bitcoin is just watching tv. [16:57]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense. [16:58]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke. [16:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00057753 = 19.7515 BTC [+] {3} [17:00]
asciilifeform there is a basic principle which applies equally to the 'orphanage' discussions and to today's ddos thread: NEVER give derps something valuable just for showing up [17:01]
asciilifeform in NO possible universe does this lead to anything but grief [17:01]
asciilifeform there is NO circumventing this, because ultimately it is a thermodynamic law [17:02]
decimation asciilifeform: in this way you can see how the internet 'as is' is doomed to some degree [17:02]
asciilifeform decimation: it is as doomed as the cartoon wolf who walks off the cliff and does not necessarily notice - at first [17:02]
decimation no, I would argue that the benefits accrue to specific corporations [17:03]
mircea_popescu obviously. [17:03]
decimation for instance, spam drives everyone to big isp mail hosts, gmail, etc - not only for spam protection but also for 'web of trust' [17:03]
asciilifeform decimation: re: the orphanages, if you have them at all, what you're doing is 'i'll store this piece of shit on your say-so, and MAYBE it will be shown to be a valid block (rx) later' [17:04]
asciilifeform hence 'jam tomorrow' [17:04]
decimation 'web of trust' in this case being the poorly done implmentations of smtp routing [17:04]
mircea_popescu decimation riddle me this : you don't like reading dumb "newspapers", but how many good ones were sunk by exactly this before you heard of them ? [17:04]
mircea_popescu the process ensures everyone has to swim in the same pisspool. [17:04]
decimation yeah it's a fair point [17:05]
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decimation the pre-digital version was expecting some kind of handout/human attenion being paid to a stranger [17:05]
decimation similarly, the 'ddos attackers' end up driving everyone to akamai, etc [17:06]
decimation virii/malware benefit mcaffee and usg's 'cyber' budget [17:07]
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decimation asciilifeform: I predict the bitcoin version will be resolved with some kind of central transaction clearhouse monopoly, sadly [17:09]
asciilifeform decimation: in what sense would that look like 'bitcoin' at all ? [17:10]
decimation what other option is there? [17:10]
decimation spv mining? [17:10]
decimation satoshi was being dumb when he failed to program payments for caching [17:11]
asciilifeform i still utterly fail to see what is so wrong with classic bitcoin [17:11]
decimation umm, didn't you just complain about the orphan problem? [17:12]
asciilifeform i shot that problem in the head [17:12]
asciilifeform while remaining compatible [17:12]
asciilifeform hence it was not part of 'bitcoin' at all. [17:12]
decimation hehe good point [17:12]
asciilifeform it was just a piece of shit stuck to the skin, not a tumour [17:13]
decimation but someone still needs to hold transactions until they 'clear' [17:13]
asciilifeform think of it this way - the mempool isn't, by the same token, really 'part of bitcoin' either [17:13]
asciilifeform there are 1,001 possible ways to queue up transactions for miners to choose from [17:13]
decimation mempool in this case being the gigantic c++ 'map' that holds transactions in memory? [17:14]
phf re: orphanage, i'm still investigating, but there's no reason why we can't have a better initial sync block handoff strategy, that doesn't get stock, because some parent in an orphanage subchain failed to get sent out [17:14]
asciilifeform the current one mostly works. if sufficiently abused, and folks with actual stake in the matter get sufficiently annoyed, another one will be used [17:14]
phf *get stuck [17:14]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu suggested at least one alternate scheme, iirc [17:14]
asciilifeform phf: in case you missed it, my nodes are not stuck [17:14]
decimation I suppose my point (central clearinghouse) is that I foresee some entity like akamai that will 'magic away' this problem for miners, who will all pay for the service [17:15]
asciilifeform if the miners want to march into a usg mousetrap, no problem [17:15]
asciilifeform it will snap shut, and a new set will be born [17:15]
decimation yes, but you would agree that building such a network with an eye toward minimizingn latency everywhere would be expensive [17:16]
decimation because miners are gonna want max fees with min latency [17:16]
decimation jurov, what is 'N'? the length of the cache? [17:18]
decimation ah I see [17:19]
phf asciilifeform: it's not a permanent stuck, but a slowdown. i haven't sent out that orphanage graph that i posted some time ago, because i'm still kicking shit around, but the beahior that you can see from it, is that blocks are sent out as multiple subchains. when a subchain arrives that's missing a parent subchain, it gets rejected many times over and over, until parent subchain is filled in. i think the behavior can be improved by [17:19]
phf mucking around with the code that desides what blocks to send to a requesting client [17:19]
decimation yeah that's kinda what I'm hinting at I guess [17:19]
decimation jurov: I was envision the miners paying for your caches, on the assumption that most folks won't want to pay a third party to clearn bitcoin [17:20]
asciilifeform phf: it would be absolutely trivial to send blocks in a sane way to compatible clients. 'embrace & extend' protocol [17:20]
asciilifeform ^^^ [17:20]
decimation yeah, it's a fair point. that point has been made [17:21]
asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/gentoo.jpg << for serious gentoo aficionados only ! [17:21]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp23iJ ) [17:21]
decimation even in the fiat world, actual people transmitting actual money would expect to pay [17:21]
phf asciilifeform: well, i wouldn't say "trivial", but yes [17:21]
decimation asciilifeform: was that taken at a zoo? [17:23]
asciilifeform decimation: aha, where else. central park. [17:23]
decimation heh. I admit part of me wants to journey to the falkland islands to see the gentoos [17:23]
phf asciilifeform: of course the easiest option is to add a new network command, that does a sane request for initial block chain parts, but i think it can still be done within the framework of current sync model [17:24]
asciilifeform i see nothing wrong with a 'get block N' command. [17:25]
decimation phf you are thinking 'give me block #N'? [17:25]
decimation heh [17:25]
decimation asciilifeform: what if you have an ongoing fork? [17:26]
asciilifeform then same situation as now [17:26]
decimation I suppose the serving node still has some idea of what block N is [17:26]
phf where N is the hash or the height? [17:26]
asciilifeform height! [17:26]
decimation yes [17:26]
phf right [17:26]
decimation actually such a command would be very useful for a 'fork detector' [17:27]
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phf well, that's certainly a way to cut gordian knot [17:27]
ag3nt_zer0 good day all... [17:28]
ag3nt_zer0 I am trying to enter my public key at nosuchlabs.com but am getting an internal server error [17:29]
asciilifeform ag3nt_zer0: it is mighty busy [17:30]
asciilifeform please do try again [17:30]
phf at which point do you stop doing get block # and switch back to current sync process? or never? [17:30]
asciilifeform why ever [17:31]
ag3nt_zer0 am i supposed to enter the entire text file, including ---Begin Public Key Block----, or just the string of shit? sorry don't know the technical term... [17:32]
asciilifeform whole thing [17:32]
ag3nt_zer0 thx [17:32]
asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/gentoo2.jpg << moar gentoo! [17:33]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp32zk ) [17:33]
asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ln2.jpg << liquid n2 on the steets of manhattan. every coupla blocks [17:34]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp37mE ) [17:34]
asciilifeform the hose disappears into a telco pit [17:34]
asciilifeform (why? almost certainly for the same reason as http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-05-2014#656219 where i live) [17:35]
assbot Logged on 02-05-2014 21:23:21; asciilifeform: instead, there are tanks of co2 chained to poles here and there [17:35]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21630 @ 0.00057881 = 12.5197 BTC [+] [17:36]
punkman mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release [17:36]
asciilifeform long ago, i used to work with dewars quite like these. and never expected to find them on city streets [17:36]
asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juZqGU9iuq0 [17:37]
assbot The Liquid Nitrogen Tanks of New York - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp3mOu ) [17:37]
asciilifeform ^ apparently other folks noticed [17:37]
asciilifeform when i saw them, i started following the hose, in hopes of finding an ln2 icecream monger ! [17:40]
asciilifeform (an old university delicacy.) [17:40]
punkman asciilifeform: I don't really have a theory. are we sure that nuked orphanage can't cause more wedges? [17:41]
asciilifeform punkman: i have yet to conceive of any wedge or other undesirable effect from it, other than a bit of wasted bandwidth [17:41]
phf i think maybe getblocks already works like "get block N" where n is block height. client sends out his top block on a chain, and server responds with a sequences (?) of blocks from then on [17:42]
asciilifeform (since you can't stop other folks from sending you bastard garbage) [17:42]
punkman do they have liquid nitrogen in other US cities? [17:47]
punkman seems expensive to maintain [17:47]
asciilifeform punkman: here in dc region they use tanks of compressed co2 [17:47]
asciilifeform the one i spoke of in the linked thread hasn't been changed in... 2yrs [17:48]
asciilifeform if not longer [17:48]
asciilifeform quite empty [17:48]
punkman I have never seen any such thing in europe, perhaps they hide them [17:48]
asciilifeform the ones in nyc were fresh, covered in frost [17:48]
asciilifeform i do not know how long they have been there, but would dare to guess that it is since the flood a few yrs ago [17:48]
asciilifeform punkman: bottled dry gas is not a standard feature of copper phone grid! [17:49]
punkman guess it's cheaper than digging out shitty cables and replacing them [17:49]
asciilifeform normally, there are dry air machines at the exchange [17:49]
asciilifeform they blow straight into cable ducts [17:50]
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asciilifeform (for fiber, all of this is entirely unnecessary) [17:50]
punkman don't fiber bundles have copper sometimes? [17:50]
asciilifeform for what ? [17:51]
asciilifeform optically-pumped repeaters are sop for... last decade ? [17:51]
punkman optically pumped repeaters? that sounds interesting [17:52]
punkman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_communications_repeater [17:52]
assbot Optical communications repeater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf6tQN ) [17:52]
Naphex nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3dumhy/we_are_alice_jessica_victoria_and_brandy_from/ [17:55]
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Naphex that cam on stick thing [18:00]
Naphex pretty cool [18:00]
mod6 <+punkman> mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release << yeah, i mentioned that after the fact lastnight. but was discussed here: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense. [18:00]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke. [18:00]
mod6 <+mod6> so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories. << so if i do remove them by hand, have to ensure that these empty dirs wont get nuked later on accident [18:03]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 980 @ 0.00111 = 1.0878 BTC [18:06]
ag3nt_zer0 !rate phf 1 helpful [18:10]
assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6cbe5193f62deee9 [18:10]
punkman mod6, nuke the empty dirs, have the build script or makefile create them when it needs them? [18:13]
mod6 sure there are other options. nothing quite as simple as "just blow away the .gitignore files" [18:13]
mod6 s/simple/clean/ [18:14]
asciilifeform in other nyooz, 64 connections on s.nsa node - a new record [18:14]
mod6 cool! [18:14]
asciilifeform we will need more, more of these. [18:15]
asciilifeform and a peer discrimination mechanism. [18:15]
asciilifeform (something notably absent atm) [18:15]
decimation asciilifeform: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11907-superconducting-power-line-to-shore-up-new-york-grid < you might have found superconducting electric lines [18:15]
assbot Superconducting power line to shore up New York grid - New Scientist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf8igD ) [18:15]
asciilifeform decimation: nah. these were telco holes [18:15]
decimation low noise amps is a possibility [18:15]
decimation every rf guy knows noise = k*temp*bandwidth [18:16]
asciilifeform http://gothamist.com/2008/01/31/nitrogen_tanks.php [18:16]
assbot New York's Nitrogen Tanks: Gothamist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf8nkx ) [18:16]
decimation it's odd that they would use nitrogen instead of dry air machine [18:17]
decimation maybe they need high pressure or something [18:18]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41350 @ 0.00057956 = 23.9648 BTC [+] {4} [18:19]
asciilifeform decimation: cheap, in the short term [18:19]
asciilifeform not to mention that dry air machine is a large, central thing, and needs intact ducts [18:20]
asciilifeform (the latter are, possibly, no longer there, since the flood) [18:20]
decimation yeah, also this google 'answer' http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=309530 [18:20]
assbot Google Answers: Liquid nitrogen into sewers - why? ... ( http://bit.ly/1Opzt7k ) [18:20]
decimation " [18:21]
decimation "Re: liquid nitrogen... [18:21]
decimation Con Ed in New York City puts 160 L dewars on the street and uses the [18:21]
decimation cold gas to cool transformer vaults in the summer. The Dewars sit on [18:21]
decimation the street all over Manhattan." [18:21]
decimation http://www.popsci.com/those-nitrogen-canisters-nyc-streets-are-keeping-your-internet-cables-cool "“We’ve done a lot of work to get these off the street,” Johnson said. “It’s a big expense. This is not our business.” Just refilling the tank costs about $100, Diachok said, which they have to do every day to every three days. Right now in the city, Verizon has 54 tanks at 28 sites, and that number goes up in the winter when t [18:22]
assbot Page Unavailable ... ( http://bit.ly/1OpzFTO ) [18:22]
decimation yeah apparently they also use the expansion of the gas to cool the lines next to hot steam, etc [18:23]
asciilifeform collapse bandages. [18:24]
decimation heh yeah pretty much. 'oh we installed shit on top of shit, what kind of bandaids can we use to keep the mess running rather than investing in fixing the problem?' [18:24]
decimation it's not unlike the ddos/spam problem mentioned earlier - each entity sees the street and sewer vaults as a zone to stuff shit for 'free' [18:26]
decimation 'tragedy of the commons' [18:26]
ben_vulpes mod6: re gitkeeps do we even know why those empty dirs are necessary for a succesful compile? [18:35]
ben_vulpes i've been able to get on the computer for maybe 10 minutes max at a stretch over the past few days, or i'd take a crack at it myself and figure it out [18:35]
phf ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.) [18:36]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform, punkman, panzers et al [18:36]
ben_vulpes so instead of duct taping the thing together perhaps fix the makefile? [18:36]
phf it's totally a makefile.unix artifact, since building with cmake/clang works without them [18:36]
phf yes please [18:36]
ben_vulpes p plz [18:36]
ben_vulpes phf later i'll want to pick your brain about compiling boost under clang/os x [18:37]
ben_vulpes but you know [18:37]
ben_vulpes snorkels and family call [18:37]
phf priorities! [18:37]
ben_vulpes i am clearly not elite enough to set my own priorities, otherwise i'd be down on the beach with a margarita and my laptop [18:38]
ben_vulpes OH WELL [18:38]
* ben_vulpes off again [18:38]
decimation boost compiles fine with macports [18:39]
decimation but macports appears to want to use clang [18:39]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21298 @ 0.00058075 = 12.3688 BTC [+] [18:42]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47400 @ 0.00055534 = 26.3231 BTC [-] {2} [18:46]
decimation http://www.thelocal.es/20150716/night-drone-mystery-at-spains-royal-palace " The privacy of Spain’s royal family is being invaded by unmanned aircraft which are using the cover of darkness to venture into airspace above King Felipe’s residence." [18:49]
assbot Night drone mystery at Spanish royal palace - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1IcNww3 ) [18:49]
decimation ^ typical solution to 'tragedy of the commons' problem [18:50]
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decimation or rather this: " Spain’s Ministry of Defence is said to be interested in introducing measures that will prevent drones flying in high-security zones following initiatives in London and Paris." [18:50]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10127 @ 0.00055476 = 5.6181 BTC [-] [18:54]
punkman decimation: lol "measures" [18:55]
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mod6 <+phf> ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.) << ben_vulpes yeah this stuff [19:07]
mod6 <+asciilifeform> we will need more, more of these. << indeed [19:08]
decimation lol related to the earlier discussions about anti-confederates & anti-nazis: http://www.thelocal.es/20150706/madrid-mayor-to-rid-city-of-franco " Manuela Carmena, the new left-wing mayor of Madrid, is set to get rid of all street signs bearing references to the late dictator Francisco Franco, replacing them with the names of illustrious women and local heroes." [19:14]
assbot Madrid mayor to rid city of dictator Franco - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1SvXg5U ) [19:14]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00058075 = 8.7113 BTC [+] [19:28]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93350 @ 0.00055475 = 51.7859 BTC [-] {2} [19:31]
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decimation !up _flow_ [19:44]
* assbot gives voice to _flow_ [19:44]
decimation 8~ [19:47]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20704 @ 0.00058075 = 12.0238 BTC [+] [20:01]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26309 @ 0.00058098 = 15.285 BTC [+] {3} [20:03]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27565 @ 0.00058239 = 16.0536 BTC [+] {2} [20:06]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1871 @ 0.00058339 = 1.0915 BTC [+] [20:07]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14547 @ 0.00056253 = 8.1831 BTC [-] {3} [20:29]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69203 @ 0.00055148 = 38.1641 BTC [-] {2} [20:30]
mod6 i've tried this thing 48 ways from sunday. context diff, unified, truncated files, removed files with/without -E smh [21:01]
decimation http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-09-2014#822058 < and often a 'populist' megalomaniac [21:03]
assbot Logged on 07-09-2014 20:39:31; decimation: no, but my point is that destroying the structure of power typically empowers some megalomaniac to step in and fix things [21:03]
decimation I was thinking about this for awhile today, and about what would have happened if hitler had stopped with poland and consolidated power [21:03]
decimation it's pretty likely we would have germany+us+ussr today, or at least they would have been a 'triumvirate' during the cold war [21:05]
decimation mod6: did you try removing that line from the makefile.unix that reference the empty dir? [21:06]
mod6 there's a bunch of lines that reference it actually, and no, i was hoping to get rid of these barnacles without having to change other files. [21:06]
decimation I suspect you are gonna need a shell script, like ascii suggested. [21:08]
mircea_popescu decimation dubiuous one could have "consolidated". that's what the soviet union tried. it collapsed. that's what the eu tried. it's collapsing. [21:09]
mod6 yeah. well, i think i'll just prune by hand if I do at all. like i was saying earlier, im a bit paranoid now that some script might later accidentially remove the dirs if they're rendered empty. [21:09]
mircea_popescu once the war machine stops, all the fringe cocksuckers congeal. [21:09]
mircea_popescu the only way poland was worth holding for germany is if they were going into the ukraine. and ukraine in turn, going to moscow. etc. [21:09]
mod6 gonna have to test prune by hand, and then test and ensure that these empty dirs will persist indifiniately. [21:09]
mircea_popescu otherwise, on their own merits, nobody wants to hold the lands of orcs. [21:09]
mod6 *indefiniately [21:09]
mircea_popescu indefinitely ? [21:10]
mod6 yah that :] [21:10]
mircea_popescu :) [21:10]
decimation mircea_popescu: alright, perhaps the sudetenland (sorry jurov) [21:10]
mod6 don't challenge me to a spelling contest, i'll lose. [21:10]
mircea_popescu so a slightly larger germany. still no different from the previous situation. [21:10]
mircea_popescu as hitler correctly figured out (and plainly said so) , the only future of germany as a nation lay in the destruiction of britain as an empire. [21:11]
decimation yeah, but the main point is that hitler was a populist dictator who actually delievered on his promises to a great degree [21:11]
mircea_popescu this turned out to be more expensive than originally thought, but it was done neverthjeless. [21:11]
mircea_popescu mno. the notion that hitler was populist is akin to the notion that obama is democratic. [21:11]
mircea_popescu sure, the turdmeisters in charge of the herd sell it thus. [21:11]
mircea_popescu they'd sell it any other way, makes no difference. [21:12]
mircea_popescu they put butter in blue or red or yellow packaging according to what the focus group says. you think butter is "red" ? butter is butter. [21:12]
mircea_popescu nobody yet stopped to consider "the real color of butter" for packaging purposes afaik, [21:12]
decimation all that might be true, but the nazi platform appeared to mostly be "give to the people all the things" (minus jews, foreigners, etc) [21:13]
mircea_popescu you can quote chapter and verse for this notion or are merely relying on what us agitprop and clueless derps like that mcdowell woman in that eddie murphy movie told you ? [21:13]
decimation umm, our discussion about this a few nights ago? http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/17/turns-out-you-wanted-hitler-after-all/ [21:14]
assbot Turns out you wanted Hitler after all. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1fgZ1XL ) [21:14]
mircea_popescu (great film btw, murphy is the heir to the throne of zamunda, pursues some ugly nigglet in queens. who doesn't like him because he's rich, and to their assheads at the time in the 80s this is a flaw)_ [21:14]
decimation "7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich." [21:14]
decimation "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties." [21:14]
mircea_popescu still a stretch neh ? [21:15]
decimation " [21:15]
decimation 13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts). [21:15]
decimation 14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises. [21:15]
decimation what about hitler is 'against populism'? [21:16]
mircea_popescu fuhrerprinzip, for one. [21:16]
mircea_popescu i don't recall any sort of voting being held on when to attack, soviet style. [21:16]
mircea_popescu not that the guy is pointedly "against populism", admitting for the sake of argument that tyhe concept even holds meaning outside of its proper reference (it is after all a notion of democracy). but then again the bar for "not being x" is not "being patently against x" [21:18]
mircea_popescu ("you don't love me anymore" "sure i do" "prove it" "fuck you.") [21:18]
mircea_popescu s/fuck you/you made the statement, you prove it/ for any unschooled gals in the audience. [21:19]
decimation it's a fair point, he probably didn't believe it in his heart of hearts [21:19]
mircea_popescu he didn't act in a supportive manner throughout. [21:19]
decimation at any rate, my original point is that it would have been interesting to see german v. the world in an economic war rather than military [21:20]
decimation after all, britian capitulated rather quickly to us demands for it to 'decolonize' [21:21]
mircea_popescu specifically re 13 : if isis submits a bid to buy out raytheon, this proposal will not go to the shareholders. it will go to a so called "anti trust regulator" or w/e, which will reject it. [21:21]
mircea_popescu this is not populism, this is plain old nationalism. [21:21]
mircea_popescu only because germany was feigning death at the time. [21:22]
mircea_popescu and because exhausted by a decade of war etc [21:22]
mircea_popescu otherwise, see orwell : london in 1930 was entering its second decade of pretending ww1 never happenbed anmd "britannia forever" [21:22]
decimation yes that's true, also see this http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/what-im-re-reading-2/ [21:23]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1fgZR6T ) [21:23]
mircea_popescu anyway, zee germans have gained a very petty habit of being miserable to the people they owe gratitude to. no hitler statues, put that kohl fellow in jail... [21:26]
mircea_popescu then they sprout cheeky teenagers with "nordic system" delusions. won't fill the void. [21:26]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206406 << dun be hatin' on ma control panels! [21:27]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:09:25; decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel? [21:27]
decimation hehe jurov explained it [21:28]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206415 << gotta get teh ips somehow neh. [21:28]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:16:30; decimation: the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns [21:28]
decimation yeah, and your 'gambit' confirmed that they do strictly this [21:28]
decimation which is valuable to know [21:28]
mircea_popescu many things valuable. [21:28]
mircea_popescu nuked the parody site rightr off the net, but wh stands. [21:29]
mircea_popescu i think they spent a coupla million real dollars on that gateway [21:29]
mircea_popescu god only knows what the bill actually was. [21:29]
decimation which one? the akamai host you linked? [21:29]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206424 << he has a point there. [21:29]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:25:34; jurov: and routers verifying sigs for 1e6 packets/sec , rly? [21:29]
mircea_popescu decimation is 23.45.18.92 akamai ? [21:30]
mircea_popescu heh so it is. [21:30]
decimation 92.18.45.23.in-addr.arpa. 300INPTRa23-45-18-92.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com. [21:30]
mircea_popescu well that makes sense then. i was impressed originally. [21:30]
decimation which is why it didn't go down, they did spend $x mil, possibly $bil [21:31]
mircea_popescu anyway, all this is (as you prolly expect it from shit i do) very much experimental. trying to actually make a site where users can safely use their ips. [21:31]
mircea_popescu kinda informative attempt. [21:31]
decimation https://blog.cloudflare.com/a-brief-anycast-primer/ < cloudflare describes how they do it [21:31]
assbot A Brief Primer on Anycast ... ( http://bit.ly/1fh0oG0 ) [21:31]
decimation they carefully craft routing tables with all their peers so that they can have multiple hosts with the same ip [21:31]
mircea_popescu "But fresh data show that top schools are turning out black and Hispanic graduates with tech degrees at rates significantly higher than they are being hired by leading tech firms. [21:32]
mircea_popescu Last year, black students took home 4.1 percent of the bachelor’s degrees in computer science" [21:32]
mircea_popescu you gotta be shitting me. [21:32]
mircea_popescu they took 4% last year and are in the workforce at 2% ? [21:32]
mircea_popescu this is OVERREPRESENTED. [21:32]
decimation heh [21:32]
decimation not to the shakedown artists [21:32]
mircea_popescu whole fucking country is by now the United Republic of Blackmail. [21:32]
decimation except, nobody seems to blackmail microsoft for pumping out shit [21:33]
mircea_popescu anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year. [21:33]
decimation maybe in their young and dumb days, but now they are legendary for their pickiness [21:33]
decimation all of the testing amounts to 'unofficial iq tests', as far as I can tell [21:34]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206433 << you're not gonna have "hdtv" on your thing. not that i mind. i wish they stopped making movies over 700mb. you REALLY do not need more than that for an hour of whatever [21:34]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:26:46; asciilifeform: SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET [21:34]
mircea_popescu decimation this was the pickiness. [21:34]
mircea_popescu "can't afford to not hire this guy now and have him hired by someone later". [21:35]
mircea_popescu sort-of like nobody hires 21 yo athletes as entry level. [21:35]
decimation heh now the 'movie industry' is going to 4k (3840 x 2160) 3D - in hopes they can hold off piracy, would be my guess [21:35]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206443 << crypto is moving bits. [21:35]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:28:54; jurov: of course, but cisco just moves bits and does not do crypto [21:35]
mircea_popescu more like in hopes that social relevancy is tied to "technological advancement". [21:36]
mircea_popescu except there is such a thing as spurious detail. [21:36]
trinque see: 4k porn [21:36]
decimation indeed. my experience is not enhanced by watching the individual whiskars on gandolf's beard [21:36]
mircea_popescu moving from asciiart tits to 500kb gifs was a great reason to ditch the diskette and put in a cdrom [21:36]
mircea_popescu moving from 2mb gifs to 600mb .avis was a great reason to ditch the cdrom get a dvd [21:37]
decimation in fact, there's a point where it hits an 'uncanny valley' and you realize it's all a set with fake shit everywhere [21:37]
mircea_popescu but past that... who the fuck cares. [21:37]
mircea_popescu yup. [21:37]
trinque asciilifeform: got elephant working with postgresql, wasn't too bad [21:37]
trinque barfed on berkdb so I skipped it [21:37]
decimation which is why 24 fps in a dark room worked for 100 years [21:37]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206472 << not that much bw, just shitty packets. [21:39]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:35:33; jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets [21:39]
decimation very few providers in the world could even measure 100 gbs ddos [21:39]
mircea_popescu 1Mpps has been seen, so... yeah routing over wot will not be a trivial problem. but it does have a trivial solution : [21:39]
mircea_popescu only route for peers in your own network. [21:39]
mircea_popescu this will make "most of the web" inaccessible to "most people", but only if we measure "most" linearily. [21:40]
decimation note that this kinda implies you are building your own network, not using some else's ip routing [21:40]
mircea_popescu otherwise, all the web that matters will be visible to all the people who matter. [21:40]
mircea_popescu decimation just auto-drop any packets coming from unknown host. [21:40]
mircea_popescu you know those hops in the traceroute ? well... the assumption is that they'll just take a packet. [21:41]
mircea_popescu this needn't be true. [21:41]
mircea_popescu exactly how it works here : we have a public slut (ie, gribble) who will convey a message to anyone, and who can trivially be silenced. otherwise, suppose unknown asks you to convey message to me. well ? why would you. [21:41]
decimation yeah I get it [21:41]
decimation but how do I plug into this network? [21:42]
decimation I doubt comcast will peer directly [21:42]
mircea_popescu if you need to ask we do not want to see you. [21:42]
mircea_popescu it could trivially work on existing infrastructure really. the ability to ddos only exists on some ports and in some circumstances as it is, because that's what the derps use. [21:43]
decimation that was kinda my point about the 'charging per route' [21:43]
mircea_popescu server that rejects requests on 80 etc is way harder all of a sudden [21:43]
decimation you pay 10 satoshi, get 1e6 packets [21:43]
mircea_popescu you don't even need to charge per se. just, PEER. as in, actually. [21:43]
mircea_popescu none of this bs "every one walking is my peer". [21:44]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3439 @ 0.00055141 = 1.8963 BTC [-] {2} [21:44]
decimation yeah but that still implies physical connection [21:44]
mircea_popescu why ? [21:44]
decimation someone is gonna have to be in the middle, who may or may not route packets at their pleasure [21:44]
mircea_popescu you discard what they route anyway. [21:44]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39323 @ 0.00058395 = 22.9627 BTC [+] {2} [21:45]
decimation yes but what if two wot members are peered through several untrusted hosts? [21:45]
mircea_popescu what if ? [21:45]
decimation the 'untrusted' routers implictly veto packet routing [21:45]
decimation or have the power to do so anyway [21:45]
mircea_popescu you drop all traffic except port 1337 and check sigs for that so as to only forward stuff to your own peers that they accept. [21:46]
mircea_popescu i dun see how they do anything. either they maintain compliance with tcp/ip spec as is, in which case they do nothing [21:46]
mircea_popescu or they break it, in which case they kill themselves but we still don't care (for the same reason original internet was robuts - rerouting) [21:46]
decimation or, they choose to null route only your stuff [21:46]
mircea_popescu that is like suicide for them [21:46]
mircea_popescu go ahead, i deeply care. [21:47]
decimation how you gonna send anything then? [21:47]
mircea_popescu what's next, power rangers will hurt the bitrcoin foundation by not releasing further crap ? [21:47]
trinque point would be to define your own network layer, then have multiple transports over which it may be routed [21:47]
mircea_popescu this notion that infrastructure has power is ludicrous. [21:47]
mircea_popescu you seriously proposing the internet just goes away ? [21:47]
trinque as said the existing internet does very much the same thing [21:47]
ben_vulpes boost compiles fine with macports << i'm a homebrew dood. perhaps this is wrong? [21:47]
decimation isn't that exactly what 'ddos protection' and 'spam protect' do? [21:47]
mircea_popescu not as far as i see it. [21:48]
decimation ben_vulpes: homebrew seemed lame, but I haven't used it much [21:48]
ben_vulpes decimation: do you use macports regularly? [21:48]
mircea_popescu but the very basic "all plaintext email is spam, throw it out" rule would do that. [21:48]
decimation mircea_popescu: okay, suppose your favorite isp null routes your packets (kills your contract) [21:48]
decimation who are you gonna use now? [21:48]
mircea_popescu im going to sue them, because we have a contract. [21:48]
decimation ben_vulpes: yeah I've used it for years now [21:48]
mircea_popescu which they have to execute. [21:48]
decimation yeah it's a fair point [21:48]
decimation if you are in a datacenter you might get this level of service [21:49]
mircea_popescu and if they refuse to sign a contract, im going to sue them for refusing to sign a contract, which thewy actually have to do being a de facto monopoluy [21:49]
mircea_popescu and if they aren't, im going to use the competition. [21:49]
mircea_popescu and so on. [21:49]
decimation sure, in most non-orc places alternatives exist [21:49]
mircea_popescu there is no requirement the us must remain connected. [21:49]
trinque I really don't think not having a b-a satellite network should preclude getting started on gossipd [21:49]
trinque heh [21:49]
trinque just build it such that it'll work on that too [21:49]
mircea_popescu considering what sats cost these days... [21:50]
decimation ben_vulpes: I tried to compile the 1.55.0 boost on macports and it didn't work [21:50]
trinque well hell, if you're buying :D [21:50]
decimation it does compile 1.58 with clang though [21:50]
decimation for some reason the final link didn't work with bitcoind, gonna do some more research [21:51]
ben_vulpes i suppose that i'm pretty dumb for just downloading the source and expecting that i'll be able to compile it, huh? [21:51]
decimation mircea_popescu: sats are getting cheaper, but doing a 'multipoint sat constellation' is still going to be $$$$$ [21:51]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206499 << pretty much. [21:51]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:43:32; phf: it's more fidonet with crypto handshakes [21:51]
ben_vulpes ;;seen artifexd [21:51]
gribble artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 12 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 32 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is. [21:51]
decimation ^ and a small leo 'store-and-forward' would be cheap [21:51]
decimation ben_vulpes: like the stator source? [21:52]
decimation I tried that, didn't work on 10.6.8 [21:52]
mircea_popescu decimation mp's law! when i was born, the first satellite had just cost a fortune. by the time i had my first threesome, they were doing consumer phone via satellite. as i made my self billion, fucing romania launched a satellite on a shoestring budget. [21:52]
mircea_popescu before i die i'm going to be farting satellites. [21:52]
decimation well, there's a whole movement of 'get space to the people' [21:52]
ben_vulpes i thought up an http-auth thing recently: http request headers containing a signed hash of one of the last 2 blocks [21:52]
ben_vulpes (signed by a customer or allowed user or someone the service provider likes) [21:53]
mircea_popescu why signed ? [21:53]
mircea_popescu so like the most ellaborate nonce ever ? [21:53]
ben_vulpes vulnerable to a bit of replay [21:53]
ben_vulpes mwell point is to gate access to an api without relying on tls [21:53]
ben_vulpes or broadcasting credentials in the clear ala http-basic auth [21:54]
mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206513 << i didn't pour that spec in concrete. [21:54]
assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:46:27; asciilifeform: again, it wasn't in mircea_popescu's spec [21:54]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206831 << mno. that's 'dotcom boom' sop. today - no one without 'straight a' marks is considered, etc. [21:54]
assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:30:21; mircea_popescu: anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year. [21:54]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform but they've also stopped doing anything [21:54]
mircea_popescu when's the last time google had a product ? [21:54]
trinque I thought they only killed ones they purchased [21:55]
ben_vulpes oh get real asciilifeform google facebook and amazon were all chasing my dumb ass at one point and i never had good grades and definitely never finished kawledge [21:55]
mircea_popescu they're still living off fucking google ads. which work about as good as an ant blowjob. since then, endless string of failures, briefcase, glass, g+ you name it [21:55]
mircea_popescu the mark cubanization of google. [21:55]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: let us not forget "Inbox" or w/e [21:55]
trinque ben_vulpes: isn't that something they purchased? [21:55]
mircea_popescu actually briefcase was yahoo i guess, the "media company" [21:56]
decimation asciilifeform: tonight for dinner I had 'riga' sprat and rye bread (berliner broet) [21:56]
mircea_popescu o hey, delicious. [21:56]
ben_vulpes no, apple purchased the only decent mail application for ios to preserve their mailnopoly [21:56]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes ios mail still sucks. [21:56]
trinque ben_vulpes: http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/20/3172222/google-buys-sparrow-mail [21:56]
assbot Google buys Sparrow, current apps will not get any new features | The Verge ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdaDs6 ) [21:56]
trinque could've been descended from that. [21:56]
ben_vulpes because while they can mandate webkit as browser they cannot [21:56]
decimation ios mail won't 'push' from gmail servers [21:56]
ben_vulpes oh hey it was google [21:56]
ben_vulpes my b [21:57]
trinque there were a few, apple might've too [21:57]
ben_vulpes heh yeah that's right [21:57]
trinque dropbox bought "mailbox" [21:57]
ben_vulpes my read at the time was "google is raping apple's mail experience" [21:57]
ben_vulpes ^^ mircea_popescu [21:57]
ben_vulpes i know ios mail is bad. [21:57]
decimation yeah, still are apparently [21:57]
ben_vulpes i use the gmail application. [21:57]
decimation and everyone uses gmail because spam [21:57]
decimation it's a 'baptists and bootleggers' situation [21:58]
mircea_popescu i don't use gmail and don't have a spam problem. but hey. [21:58]
ben_vulpes it, unlike Mail™, sort of works. [21:58]
ben_vulpes the touchscreen however is an unredeemable text input device. [21:58]
mircea_popescu ^ [21:58]
ben_vulpes because text is not simply an 'input' problem. [21:58]
mircea_popescu "srsly, where's the macro on this thing" "the what ?" [21:58]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206934 << one of those things that cannot continue. useful orbits are already very crowded (mainly with garbage.) [21:58]
assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:49:30; mircea_popescu: before i die i'm going to be farting satellites. [21:59]
ben_vulpes but more precisely a 'transformation' thing. [21:59]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i will build the garbage scows. [21:59]
* Pierre_Rochard has quit (Quit: Pierre_Rochard) [21:59]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform kinda why space war is inevitable. i see no problem shooting everything else out of orbit to fart my own [21:59]
ben_vulpes there are a million ways to pull debris out of orbit. [21:59]
ben_vulpes cloud of water [21:59]
mircea_popescu oh srsly, oprah can not be broacast anymore now ? bwahahaha mkayt. [21:59]
ben_vulpes (for one) [21:59]
* PeterL (~peterl@unaffiliated/peterl) has joined #bitcoin-assets [21:59]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206950 << you clearly did not actually go to the arse chaser and ask for a job [22:00]
assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:52:11; ben_vulpes: oh get real asciilifeform google facebook and amazon were all chasing my dumb ass at one point and i never had good grades and definitely never finished kawledge [22:00]
ben_vulpes Fe shrapnel [22:00]
asciilifeform they chase everyone with a pulse [22:00]
asciilifeform hire - the brahmins [22:00]
decimation to me the solution to spam is "pay me to read your email in bitcoin" [22:00]
trinque just don't accept every soiled napkin as mail [22:00]
trinque and done [22:00]
ben_vulpes b-a mailservers when [22:00]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206988 << go, pull [22:00]
assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:56:25; ben_vulpes: there are a million ways to pull debris out of orbit. [22:00]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what did you think dpaste was. [22:00]
decimation the stuff below a few hundred km is okay, because it is 'swept' by atmosphere [22:01]
ben_vulpes ad hoc bug ridden implementation of half of smtp [22:01]
asciilifeform uncle al's orbit-sweeper shotgun is only a matter of time. [22:01]
decimation but you need some method of keeping orbit to maintain [22:01]
mircea_popescu seems great to me. what's the problem with it ? [22:01]
trinque so. seriously. what's the story with artifexd ? [22:01]
ben_vulpes trinque: don't bite off gossipd man [22:01]
mircea_popescu ;;seen artifexd [22:01]
gribble artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 12 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 42 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is. [22:01]
mircea_popescu trinque guy seemed to be seriously working on it, was gonna say something in a coupla weeks a quarter ago. [22:02]
ben_vulpes ;;later tell artifexd yo! [22:02]
gribble The operation succeeded. [22:02]
asciilifeform this is probably where i confess that ~my~ gossipd is nearly done... [22:02]
trinque maybe he is, would just like to hear [22:02]
trinque asciilifeform: !! [22:02]
ben_vulpes he of many hands [22:02]
mircea_popescu but yes, gossipd is the huge sort of project that looks like it'd benefit from a few failure reports from failed attempts before we seriously have a shot. [22:02]
asciilifeform hey i started before you folks got hot & bothered [22:02]
trinque ben_vulpes: no kidding right? [22:02]
mircea_popescu not just because of stuff like the above asciilifeform comment, but also because well... huge. [22:02]
ben_vulpes trinque: i think he actually has employees [22:03]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes maybe HE is the one with slavegirls. [22:03]
asciilifeform l0lz [22:03]
ben_vulpes aha yes actually this makes sense [22:03]
ben_vulpes 'pet' has read knr [22:03]
mircea_popescu prolly has 588 of them, all the same height, wearing the same mask [22:04]
decimation asciilifeform: when buying from the german baker, I commented how my coworkers mock my sprat eating habits. her reply "always with the chicken this, chicken that" [22:04]
mircea_popescu bwahaha [22:04]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: that vacuum-packed babe was p lulzy [22:04]
asciilifeform decimation reminds me, i gotta resprat [22:04]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: attended another costco today [22:05]
decimation 'riga' is definitely smokey, I like it, but 'king oskar' is good too (unsmoked) [22:05]
mircea_popescu http://38.media.tumblr.com/c021a1191d8153f73ba1b27bcd9fb28c/tumblr_n5xmsiNmjE1tulo74o5_400.gif << competence and ridiculously infantile tits. [22:05]
ben_vulpes did not get ID'd [22:05]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdbCbZ ) [22:05]
* asciilifeform checks larder, notices a full clip of sprats. pet must have bought a bunch [22:05]
ben_vulpes i think everyone can smell your perma-lsd-trip. [22:05]
decimation it is weird how most usians are biased against fish in a tin [22:05]
asciilifeform decimation: i've yet to locate a supplier for unsmoked [22:05]
decimation or fish in general [22:05]
* DanielBTC (~DanielBTC@200-161-158-97.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #bitcoin-assets [22:05]
trinque decimation: I'll eat it [22:05]
trinque happen to like sardines [22:05]
asciilifeform decimation: in usa, 'fish in tin' typically means cheap tuna, and one notch above what is fed to cat [22:05]
asciilifeform (if that) [22:05]
asciilifeform to the point where ru immigrants sometimes are found to have lived on 'cat feed' for months [22:06]
mircea_popescu !up DanielBTC [22:06]
-assbot- You voiced DanielBTC for 30 minutes. [22:06]
* assbot gives voice to DanielBTC [22:06]
ben_vulpes (anyways, if anyone cares to poke holes in my proposed ghetto wot httpauthentication mechanism, plz do) [22:06]
asciilifeform without being even slightly aware of what it was for [22:06]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i'm still snarfing up the log [22:06]
asciilifeform was out, swimming [22:06]
decimation asciilifeform: these are usually available in the us (safeway?) http://www.kingoscar.com/products-by-market/usa/usa-sardines/brisling-sardines-in-olive-oil-5.html [22:06]
ben_vulpes and i snorkeling! [22:06]
assbot brisling sardines in olive oil » KING OSCAR – THE BEST SEAFOOD IN THE WORLD ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdbMQl ) [22:06]
decimation they sell them as 'brisling sardines' but they are sprat - I am certain of this [22:07]
mircea_popescu uh [22:07]
mircea_popescu the sprat IS a sardine. that's what they're called in english. [22:07]
asciilifeform apparently not quite [22:07]
decimation it turns out there's many kinds of 'sardine' [22:07]
asciilifeform 'sardine' is a dish [22:07]
asciilifeform can be made from more than one animal [22:08]
mircea_popescu sprattus sprattus. that's what it is, the brisling [22:08]
decimation yes exactly [22:08]
decimation but they are sold as sardines in the us because they haven't heard of 'sprat' [22:08]
mircea_popescu no dood, sardine is a fish lol [22:08]
mircea_popescu you mean sardine' with an accent ? [22:08]
asciilifeform a dozen species [22:08]
asciilifeform are sold as 'sardine' [22:08]
mircea_popescu well sure. [22:08]
asciilifeform sprattus is one. [22:08]
decimation it's actually almost impossible to tell exactly what kind of fish you are eating in the us [22:09]
decimation and from whence it comes [22:09]
asciilifeform at some point it will be possible to tell - with a geiger. [22:09]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform btw, did we ever discuss what zacusca ended up in romanian ? [22:09]
ben_vulpes one of the nicer things about hawaii is the plentify ahi [22:10]
ben_vulpes plentiful* [22:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: закуска ? [22:10]
mircea_popescu ya. [22:10]
decimation yeah hawaii has the best sushi I've eaten [22:10]
decimation especially in honolulu where they cater to rich japanese [22:10]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: original ru is, roughly, 'snack you eat when boozing it up' [22:10]
* assbot gives voice to PeterL [22:10]
asciilifeform and in ro, i presume, means something other ? [22:10]
mircea_popescu yes. in romanian is this very specific, traditionally canned vegetable paste [22:10]
PeterL So I've been thinking about the mempool: There should be a size limit set in the config for mempool, along with the minFee. Each txn gets scored based on age of coins, amount in txn, size of txn, and fee, etc, once the size limit is reached if a txn does not meet the lowest ranking it is ignored, if it does then the lowest ranked txn is ejected to make space, and every once in a while the oldest and highest ranking txns in the mempool are rebroa [22:10]
PeterL to make sure they get included eventually in a block [22:10]
mircea_popescu mostly red pepper and baked eggplant [22:10]
mircea_popescu o hallo peterl [22:11]
decimation for spreading on bread/crackersA? [22:11]
PeterL hi [22:11]
mircea_popescu decimation quite. [22:11]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: oh ha, we call that dish икра (as in 'caviar', yes, same word) [22:11]
mircea_popescu icre, of course, are hanbot's least favourite romanian food. [22:11]
mircea_popescu particularly "icre de crap" [22:11]
asciilifeform l0l [22:11]
mircea_popescu which yes is a thing. [22:12]
ben_vulpes PeterL: you missed the thread where alf pointed out that 'mempool' is not a part of bitcoin. [22:12]
mircea_popescu PeterL you know your thinking is a nearly exact restatement of what i said last week ? [22:12]
asciilifeform PeterL: mircea_popescu had a scheme quite like the one you described [22:12]
asciilifeform ^ [22:12]
ben_vulpes heh [22:12]
PeterL oh, must have missed it [22:12]
PeterL but what is bitcoin without transactions? [22:13]
asciilifeform it is more or less the obvious solution to 'how to keep a public tx pool' [22:13]
asciilifeform PeterL: more than one way to get tx from originator to miner [22:13]
mircea_popescu granted, i claim no ownersheep. [22:13]
ben_vulpes sync and serve mechanisms are vastly more important. [22:13]
trinque or more generally stated... "markets work" [22:13]
mircea_popescu just thought the guy may enjoy the notion ?D [22:13]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.00056171 = 29.9953 BTC [-] {2} [22:13]
asciilifeform PeterL: can be carried - directly. via pigeon. sailboat. [22:13]
mircea_popescu dude stop confusing can and will be. alf can pick up prostitutes in buenos aires, too. [22:13]
asciilifeform mempool is by far the weakest link in the chain we have today [22:14]
PeterL yeah, but it makes sense to have -some- relay built into reference version [22:14]
mircea_popescu via a sailboat. [22:14]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: "can" lol [22:14]
PeterL with my scheme, just set the max-size to 0 and it turns the mempool off [22:14]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu has it. sorta like i asked my father, as a small boy, if furniture could speak. answer 'yes, in principle' [22:14]
mircea_popescu lol [22:14]
mircea_popescu did i ever recount the joke about practice and theory ? [22:15]
asciilifeform hm ? [22:15]
asciilifeform (what i meant earlier was that tx only needs to get to the destination - miner. if it cannot get there cheaply and easily, it will get there expensively and painfully. but it will get there.) [22:15]
mircea_popescu after reading b-a log for the first time, little gavin schmuckssen went to his father [22:15]
ben_vulpes http://cnsnews.com/blog/melanie-hunter/pregnant-wnba-star-asks-20k-month-spousal-support-her-wife << ahahaha child support hits the gays [22:15]
assbot Pregnant WNBA Star Asks for $20K a Month Spousal Support from Her Wife | CNS News ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdcWLL ) [22:15]
mircea_popescu "daddy, daddy, i heard these mean kids use two unknown words. theory and practice. do you know what is the difference ?" [22:16]
mircea_popescu old man schmuckssen calls over his wife. "honey, there's an arab prince at the door, wants to fuck you silly for a million bucks. what should i say to him ?" [22:16]
mircea_popescu "well... uhh... i'd never... you know we're behind on the mortgage and that nsa check is late..." [22:16]
mircea_popescu old man schmuckssen calls over his daughter [22:16]
mircea_popescu "listen dear, the arab prince has a friend. would you..." [22:17]
mircea_popescu YES ! YES!!! she cuts him off [22:17]
mircea_popescu "see gavin, in theory we're millionaires. [22:17]
mircea_popescu in practice, we're stuck with a coupla whores." [22:17]
asciilifeform !b 17 [22:17]
assbot Last 17 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21TCSAR.txt ) [22:17]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: got elephant working with postgresql, wasn't too bad << share! [22:17]
trinque ben_vulpes: took some very minimal notes, may share when I feel like I know what I'm doing [22:18]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes et al: must warn that abstractions don't actually work. that is, the underlying limitations of your db will 'leak out'. [22:18]
asciilifeform that is, updates - dog-slow, for example [22:18]
trinque yeah, I expect this [22:18]
asciilifeform you may get more of 'this' than you expected. [22:19]
asciilifeform but otherwise the thing worx. [22:19]
trinque this is an experiment to see whether I can transplant my standard patterns of db use to lisp [22:19]
mircea_popescu and to round off that joke, i guess : http://41.media.tumblr.com/b9ef786cc8939eb428859b4018f9eade/tumblr_n1q1hy0e411syt00ao1_1280.jpg [22:19]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Iddql2 ) [22:19]
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asciilifeform trinque: so long as you were not expecting to transplant patterns of lisp to db use - you will be reasonably happy with 'elephant' [22:20]
mircea_popescu if not that, what is he expecting [22:20]
mircea_popescu using packages starting with the letter "e" ? [22:20]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: background for thread: 'elephant' is this thing that tries to magick away the fact that db exists, by allowing you to mark an arbitrary lisp data structure as 'persistent' and churning it to db behind the scenes [22:21]
mircea_popescu right. [22:22]
asciilifeform that is, an attempt to simulate 'proper computer' in this specific way. [22:22]
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trinque I'll admit I got a bit uncomfortable seeing a keyvalue table [22:22]
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trinque author must've been shy on altering schema [22:23]
asciilifeform author was trying to keep dbisms to a minimum. [22:23]
* asciilifeform fucking loathes db and everything connected with the notion [22:24]
trinque runs directly contarary to your idea of knowing the cost of an operation [22:24]
trinque that "table" could be 100 views deep [22:24]
asciilifeform not only [22:24]
asciilifeform it is a malignancy - in every way, from forcing me to touch and think about turdlangs, to being chock-full of opaque mechanisms and slow as fuck at its fastest [22:25]
asciilifeform and folks come to think that it excuses them from knowing jack shit about data structures and choosing right one for a job [22:25]
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BingoBoingo it's actually almost impossible to tell exactly what kind of fish you are eating in the us << Catching own fish is possible [22:26]
PeterL The river running through my town has a "don't eat the fish" rule because of some toxic spill upstream from 20 years ago [22:27]
trinque asciilifeform: reasoning with sets and their relationships is why I use the db heavily in work [22:27]
trinque I have an inkling of being able to do the same thing in lisp, but you know, grew up in the congo, working on it [22:27]
ben_vulpes trinque: have you started reading the statice manual? [22:28]
asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1207034 << ben_vulpes is a recent convert to 'costco' ? [22:28]
assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 01:01:54; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: attended another costco today [22:28]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: statice may or may not make sense without access to the live animal [22:29]
BingoBoingo PeterL: Recently had some "sour crude" leak from a pipe upstream of our reservoir [22:29]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: attended with family who are cult members [22:29]
ben_vulpes they were not id'd either [22:29]
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asciilifeform ah [22:29]
ben_vulpes i am however considering a conversion [22:30]
trinque ben_vulpes: I have not [22:30]
asciilifeform it's roughly a hundy, iirc [22:30]
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asciilifeform gives you a pass, and one for the woman [22:30]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: re statice, what parts wouldn't make sense? the thing is explained in painstaking detail. [22:30]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: only need one - for the woman [22:30]
asciilifeform l0l [22:30]
ben_vulpes trinque: go, read. a marvel of technical writing. [22:31]
trinque neat [22:31]
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asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the symbolics books are a marvel of writing. [22:31]
ben_vulpes such as i have not seen in my career to date. [22:31]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i may yet end up with a set because of this reason. [22:31]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: they were, iirc, the first hyperlinked manual (one was expected to read them on the machine - but it came with a paper set!) [22:31]
asciilifeform i have the paper [22:31]
ben_vulpes the covers are also gorgeous. [22:32]
asciilifeform it takes up most of a shelf [22:32]
asciilifeform was given to me, for phree, even [22:32]
asciilifeform by a phriend. [22:32]
asciilifeform gave me his 'alpha', too [22:32]
trinque asciilifeform: hm I already see your point, maybe, re: data structures [22:36]
trinque I get a tree, in a database! [22:36]
* assbot removes voice from DanielBTC [22:36]
trinque you know, without parent_id and "with recursive" [22:36]
trinque I've done horrible things working with trees in SQL [22:37]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/smbxman.jpg << all but the blue (interlisp, xerox) and orange ('chinanual', for the original mit lisp mach) [22:37]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdfABo ) [22:38]
trinque so now I'm going to grow to like this, and then I'm going to be stuck later wondering why something I've done is slow [22:38]
asciilifeform on the real machine, you could actually execute the examples in the docs browser. [22:39]
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trinque !up gabriel_laddel [22:40]
asciilifeform somebody buy gabriel_laddel a new modem ? [22:40]
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trinque !up gabriel_laddel [22:40]
* assbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel [22:40]
trinque bueller? [22:40]
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trinque lol [22:41]
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ben_vulpes he just got a job writing common lisp [22:42]
ben_vulpes fuck him [22:42]
ben_vulpes can buy his own damn modem [22:43]
* assbot gives voice to gabriel_laddel [22:44]
gabriel_laddel trinque: lol [22:44]
gabriel_laddel trinque: does elephant allow you to redefine classes without restarting? [22:44]
gabriel_laddel manardb does everything but that... [22:45]
ben_vulpes whoa [22:45]
ben_vulpes manardb [22:45]
gabriel_laddel supposedly it's fast [22:46]
trinque gabriel_laddel: no idea yet; began just now [22:46]
trinque lemme see [22:46]
decimation ben_vulpes: http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2015/07/19/why-you-should-never-ever-ever-use-mongodb/ < some mongodb hate, made me think of you [22:46]
trinque nosql is a fucking sham [22:46]
trinque not that sql's great, but every "db" in that whole wave of shit can be forgotten [22:47]
asciilifeform ^ [22:47]
* ben_vulpes twitches [22:47]
ben_vulpes that's triggering decimation [22:47]
ben_vulpes plz no bully [22:47]
asciilifeform and it is also an interesting case study: what kinds of brokenness produce these waves of 'kids who tried their best' (tm) [22:47]
asciilifeform like 'mongo' [22:47]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: lemme guess, you're stuck maintaining one of those things ? [22:48]
ben_vulpes was at one time [22:49]
ben_vulpes client blew their budget on ie8 css compatibility in a half-assed single page js app [22:49]
decimation from my own meatwot, the 'benefit' to mongo is that it can scale, because it 'runs twitter' or some shit [22:49]
ben_vulpes dude runs whatever [22:49]
ben_vulpes this is always a lie [22:49]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2466 @ 0.00058422 = 1.4407 BTC [+] [22:50]
ben_vulpes some engineer somewhere in some corp decides to play with it for a week, people who wrote dumbthing get email of concern from said engineer, decide to advertise as "running bigcorp" [22:50]
trinque "JS and JSON, therefore ..." << is the process of "design" that shat all this [22:51]
decimation lul apparently mongo is 'most popular' http://db-engines.com/en/ranking/document+store [22:52]
assbot DB-Engines Ranking - popularity ranking of document stores ... ( http://bit.ly/1Idh7am ) [22:52]
decimation ^ run moar winblows [22:52]
ben_vulpes dafuq [22:52]
ben_vulpes is [22:52]
ben_vulpes a document store [22:52]
ben_vulpes you assholes are winding me up deliberately. [22:52]
asciilifeform i can usually tell from talking to a fella who programs - for three minutes - whether he's 'seen the elephant' [22:52]
* ben_vulpes has maybe touched the penile bit [22:53]
asciilifeform which is to say, in this case, whether he has already had the flash of realization that the shit he is working with sucks because of 'anthropic principle' - that is, if it weren't a crock of shit, he would not have his job... [22:53]
decimation asciilifeform: my experience is that much of this kind of thing is only learned by 'tried, fucked me' [22:53]
trinque asciilifeform: obligatory reference to fake stroustrup interview [22:53]
trinque decimation: yes, I did once choose couchdb when I was 22 [22:54]
trinque ass still smarts [22:54]
decimation actually I did go through the slides on that stroustrup talk [22:54]
gabriel_laddel trinque: I met the guy who wrote that. Ugh. [22:54]
asciilifeform naggum had a thing re: 'job-creating systems' [22:54]
trinque gabriel_laddel: did you punch him in the dick? [22:54]
decimation the most amusing bit to me was his little diatribe against garbage collectors [22:54]
gabriel_laddel trinque: haha no [22:54]
gabriel_laddel me: "lisp makes meta-programming trivial" him: "if it did they'd rule the world already, and therefore I don't have to consider your argument" [22:55]
ben_vulpes this is why i don't talk to programmers i don't know about programming. [22:56]
asciilifeform 'if yer so smart why aitcha rich' [22:56]
asciilifeform (tm) (r) [22:57]
decimation stroustrop appears to 'hate' garbage collection because (correctly) hardware fucks him [22:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27683 @ 0.00058511 = 16.1976 BTC [+] {2} [22:57]
decimation this apparently means 'no garbage collection' not 'no shit hardware' [22:57]
asciilifeform he takes the hardware as a given [22:57]
trinque he doesn't hate the world enough to say it should change [22:57]
gabriel_laddel ;; seen Xemist [22:57]
gribble I have not seen Xemist. [22:57]
ben_vulpes http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2010-10/lisp-2010.10.29.txt << grep for MREMAP [22:57]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqdQDE ) [22:57]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67670 @ 0.00058535 = 39.6106 BTC [+] {2} [22:58]
gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: wtf why are you grepping for that. [22:58]
gabriel_laddel does manardb not work out of the box? [22:59]
ben_vulpes no sir it does not appear to [23:00]
ben_vulpes Symbol "MREMAP" not found in the OSICAT-POSIX package. [23:00]
decimation http://www.slideshare.net/curryon/bjarne-stroustrupwhatifanythinghavewelearnedfromc < his talk does show the marks of one bruised by reality [23:01]
assbot What – if anything – have we learned from C++? by Bjarne Stroustrup @… ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqeaT9 ) [23:01]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66500 @ 0.00057912 = 38.5115 BTC [-] {2} [23:01]
gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: You can "man mremap"? [23:01]
ben_vulpes watch this be an os x problem [23:02]
ben_vulpes "No manual entry for mremap" [23:03]
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ben_vulpes hyuuuuuuu [23:03]
asciilifeform didn't ben_vulpes get hold of an actual computer at some point recently ? [23:03]
gabriel_laddel OSICAT is a unix bindings library, download/build that program, it'll CFFI some stuff and kosher. [23:03]
gabriel_laddel ftr, when using manardb you'll have to force it to init on reboot by creating a junk mmap'ed class. [23:04]
asciilifeform ~retch~ [23:05]
ben_vulpes even on macos? [23:05]
gabriel_laddel https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune/blob/master/init.lisp#L31 [23:05]
assbot masamune/init.lisp at master · gabriel-laddel/masamune · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqeEsp ) [23:05]
gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: lolidk prolly [23:05]
gabriel_laddel I'm just leaving this in the logs on the off chance someone decides to play around with it. [23:05]
ben_vulpes DUDE [23:06]
ben_vulpes why can't i have software that works. [23:06]
* gabriel_laddel is working on it, but money, time, lazy etc. [23:06]
ben_vulpes i feel like herr popescu with apache and his caching layer [23:06]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: because you haven't hardware that works. [23:06]
asciilifeform otherwise - could write it. [23:06]
asciilifeform gabriel_laddel, for instance, probably believes that he has 'hardware that works.' just as i did, in 2008 [23:07]
asciilifeform he does not. [23:07]
ben_vulpes okay well trinque gabriel_laddel i give up on this lisp persistence thing [23:07]
ben_vulpes i'm writing raw sql in my cl going forward [23:07]
asciilifeform after he learns that he doesn't, he will probably come to believe that it can be emulated on hardware which almost works. [23:08]
trinque there are a hundred large pieces of software already out in the wild begging to be ripped open by something new [23:08]
asciilifeform as i did in 2009. [23:08]
asciilifeform it cannot. [23:08]
trinque old crufty industries that are not interesting to those trying to advance the art of computer science. [23:08]
trinque go kill a few of those and fund your computer [23:08]
gabriel_laddel haha, I believe no such thing, but I have to deliver "working" (for some value of that word) software to clients irrespective of how hardware behaves. [23:08]
gabriel_laddel trinque: bingo! [23:08]
asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: 'for some value of the word' - you can go do, on microshit, in visual basic, sure. [23:08]
asciilifeform i was speaking of ~actually fucking works~ [23:08]
asciilifeform like the brooklyn bridge works [23:09]
gabriel_laddel Or I could use CL, PCLOS, retain my sanity. [23:09]
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asciilifeform like a colt '45 works [23:09]
decimation for example, you can make a syscall and all possible outcomes are foreseen [23:10]
gabriel_laddel wat [23:13]
decimation if you cannot predict the outcome of a request of the hardware, how can you possibly 'fix it' in software? [23:16]
asciilifeform http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3103356827666810@naggum.no.html << obligatory re: cpp [23:17]
assbot Re: is CLOS reall OO? - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdjH0i ) [23:17]
phf my favorite way to do lisp persistence is to just keep everything in memory and do ext:save-lisp from a that does minor amount of saved image management. i learned the trick from avi bryant back when he was writing interesting code [23:18]
asciilifeform decimation: hardware can also make certain operations impractically unreliable (e.g., persistence across power toggles) or impractically slow (e.g., all-pointers-are-typed-pointers as on lispm will never happen on x86) [23:18]
phf *from a thread [23:18]
asciilifeform 'save-lisp-and-die' [23:18]
phf yes, but without the instance dying part [23:19]
ben_vulpes slad doesn't really address the power toggle thing [23:19]
asciilifeform if your working ram is 1) at least as big as your data set 2) connected to own nuke reactor, never loses power - then, great. [23:19]
ben_vulpes or lisp instance crashign either, though right? [23:19]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if your lisp crashes, something is very very wrong in your house [23:19]
phf ^ [23:19]
ben_vulpes hey man i'm a really bad programmer [23:19]
ben_vulpes this is such a bold claim! [23:20]
asciilifeform i'm a terrible cook. but have never 'crashed' my kitchen yet [23:20]
ben_vulpes really? i'm supposed to eat this? that lisp isntances don't crash? [23:20]
asciilifeform (it is still standing) [23:20]
decimation " I actually think C++ is ideal only for programmers without any ethics. [23:20]
decimation you must lie, you are encouraged to declare your private stuff and keep [23:20]
decimation the cards very closely to your breast, but if you need access, you just [23:20]
phf i've crashed cmucl a few times, but only when i would reach into heap to access vectors directly. acl and lispworks never crash on me [23:20]
decimation go ahead and change other people's class definitions. " [23:20]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i have never succeeded in crashing sbcl, for instance [23:20]
decimation lul [23:20]
gabriel_laddel it is pretty easy to crash your lisp using CL-OPENGL [23:21]
asciilifeform at least, not without doing ffi [23:21]
asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: aha, ffi [23:21]
decimation gabriel_laddel: sure, because hardware/drivers fuck you [23:21]
ben_vulpes hm [23:21]
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ben_vulpes what about sharing data structures across many instances? [23:21]
phf i think the idea here is that some data loss is way cheaper then programmer time. also memory is way cheaper then programmer time. if you have a really critical data stream, just do a write only log, that you can either replay or even just recover manually [23:22]
asciilifeform phf: 'write-only log' is what, paper tape ? [23:22]
ben_vulpes you're telling me that i should what...just write code? [23:22]
trinque maybe means write ahead log? [23:22]
phf asciilifeform: essentially [23:22]
phf in my experience it's cheaper to literally go a log file and reconstruct data manually the one time your system crash, then introduce uknowable redundancies that tend to increase complexity and ultimately result in the crash, because doesn't fit in head [23:24]
asciilifeform phf: go reconstruct blockchain manually. [23:25]
asciilifeform this is ludicrous. [23:25]
asciilifeform if it can be done manually, economically, i would not be using a fucking computer ! [23:25]
asciilifeform the answer is ALWAYS, without exception, fits-in-head+does-not-crash+operates-correctly. [23:26]
decimation https://youtu.be/pVgM5RzWMOc?t=15s < paper tape reader [23:26]
assbot Colossus - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oqhm12 ) [23:26]
asciilifeform if you have something else - you do not have the answer. [23:26]
trinque wait a sec [23:26]
trinque in elephant I can only "where" on one slot? [23:27]
trinque I have to say so far the querying capacity of this thing looks to be on par with couchdb [23:28]
phf asciilifeform: that's my answer to. the log is a contingency plan for when the lisp instance fails, which it rarely does. in which case your goal is to reconstruct the state from the time of last save-lisp (say an hour), till the point of crash [23:28]
phf the loc on that is in 10s, rather then 1000s + external servers for when your first reaction is to "reach for database" [23:29]
trinque I have noticed many times that when someone tries to pry the relational model from my hands, I lose behavior and am then told "you didn't actually need that behavior" [23:30]
asciilifeform sop [23:30]
asciilifeform https://web.cs.dal.ca/~johnston/poetry/pobble.html << obligatory! [23:30]
assbot 'The Pobble Who Has No Toes' - Edward Lear ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqhXzB ) [23:30]
ben_vulpes i am going to spend 2 years just reading CL tooling documentation before putting anything into production at this rate. [23:31]
ben_vulpes Adlai: once told me that the 'log reading' period for CL was well in excess of that for #b-a [23:31]
* ben_vulpes empties his cup [23:31]
ben_vulpes again [23:31]
asciilifeform it is measured in years, yes [23:32]
ben_vulpes what about deploying code to servers? just slime-connect to the remote host over an ssh tunnel and then compile the new codebase in? [23:32]
trinque asciilifeform: so am I meant to read every damn object into memory just to filter on >1 slot? [23:32]
asciilifeform can watch continents drift. [23:32]
asciilifeform trinque: if you don't like this, can make own indices [23:32]
trinque k [23:33]
asciilifeform i don't get this thing were folks expect others to chew for them [23:33]
asciilifeform wipe arse too ? [23:33]
ben_vulpes zing [23:33]
asciilifeform srsly, it is a bad habit imho [23:33]
asciilifeform but curable! [23:33]
trinque there are loads of repeating patterns in end-user data access [23:33]
trinque I am not sorry I used relational as a "gun to fire today" [23:33]
ben_vulpes there's a difference between chewing and a tool that abstracts a thing that needs doing [23:33]
trinque I'll take a gun to fire tomorrow too [23:33]
* ben_vulpes looks at postmodern again [23:34]
gabriel_laddel " What I want to be able to do is this. [23:34]
gabriel_laddel 1. Turn on the machine. [23:34]
gabriel_laddel 2. Work. [23:34]
gabriel_laddel 3. Have a bit of fun provided I've done enough of 2, which is rarely, but that's another issue. [23:34]
gabriel_laddel When I say 'work', I mean I want to be able to start typing on the screen, and if I feel like putting in a drawing, I draw on the screen. Or I bring something from my scanner on to the screen, or I send something from my screen to someone else. Or I get my Mac to play the tune I've just written on the screen on a synthesiser. Or well, the list obviously is endless. And if I need any particular tool to enable me to d [23:34]
gabriel_laddel o anything complicated I simply ask for it. And I mean simply. I should never have to put away the thing I'm working on unless I've actually finished it (fat chance say my publishers) or want to do something else entirely." [23:34]
trinque ben_vulpes: it's fine; eats a sql string or sexp version thereof, farts list [23:34]
gabriel_laddel -- http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/980707-00-a.html [23:34]
assbot DNA/Frank The Vandal ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqikKE ) [23:34]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51564 @ 0.00056128 = 28.9418 BTC [-] [23:34]
trinque gabriel_laddel: I want to sit down and catalog everything around me according to kind and relationship [23:35]
trinque then do arbitrary data analysis over it, and fast, damn it! [23:35]
trinque most businesses out there (that make a profit even!) are entirely blind [23:36]
trinque or they happened upon a few tools that answered enough of the essential questions that they never bothered asking more [23:36]
phf ben_vulpes: re server deploy http://www.nicklevine.org/play/patching-made-easy.html, not the only solution, but pretty cool [23:36]
assbot 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqiBND ) [23:36]
trinque asciilifeform: that doesn't solve it for me either, really [23:38]
trinque many user interfaces are essentially an editor for the where clause, order by, and so on for some query [23:38]
trinque the conditionals involved are not necessarily known in advance [23:38]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87068 @ 0.00056836 = 49.486 BTC [+] {3} [23:39]
trinque I don't buy that you should know in advance every interesting question you might ask your data [23:39]
ben_vulpes asciilifeform, phf, Adlai, gabriel_laddel: still curious about deploying CL code to running instances [23:39]
trinque but perhaps that doesn't follow; I dunno yet [23:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124100 @ 0.00058934 = 73.1371 BTC [+] {4} [23:40]
ben_vulpes thanks phf [23:40]
trinque couchdb had this too [23:40]
ben_vulpes wow i just remembered that gribble integration you wrote [23:40]
gabriel_laddel trinque: size of the data sets you're dealing with? [23:40]
trinque where an index had to be written for every "query" in advance [23:40]
ben_vulpes or was it assbot... [23:40]
phf ben_vulpes: it was assbot. i started on gribble, but it doesn't work as well [23:41]
trinque gabriel_laddel: could be millions of rows or more; how many widgets does factory X fart out per year? [23:41]
trinque what are all the classifications and distinctions involved in doing so? [23:41]
trinque how many interesting relationships exist? [23:41]
phf gribble returns identical strings for everyone, so there's no way to know if verify request is directed to you or someone else [23:42]
gabriel_laddel Allegrocache is the only lisp solution that will work for this size dataset afaik, and I've spent a lot of time looking. [23:42]
gabriel_laddel trinque: [23:42]
trinque yeah, looked at that [23:43]
ben_vulpes or perhaps we want to track quality ratings for *every widget produced* [23:43]
ben_vulpes coviariance analysis with shop humidity at the time [23:43]
ben_vulpes trains going by [23:43]
trinque mhm, should be able to add classifications at will all day long [23:43]
trinque and I wanna goddamn *see* the relationships [23:44]
trinque or why did I build this cockpit for my business at all? [23:44]
trinque so I could memorize it all and go on my gut? [23:44]
gabriel_laddel lol [23:44]
trinque gabriel_laddel: notably data modeling and analysis is one of the Franz offerings [23:46]
trinque didn't surprise me at all [23:46]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu, et al: http://imgur.com/a/ED5Nl [23:50]
assbot Miracast Internals - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqkIAW ) [23:50]
asciilifeform (if you have one of these, and it is not obvious how to open it - use a very sharp knife.) [23:50]
asciilifeform i found it interesting how the 802.11 module is anchored with just 6 solder balls - wonder what the protocol is [23:51]
asciilifeform better pics than mine: http://forum.xda-developers.com/attachment.php?s=64d51233e96e8197f7ed78e398986916&attachmentid=2904114&d=1408479756 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/attachment.php?s=64d51233e96e8197f7ed78e398986916&attachmentid=2904115&d=1408479756 [23:52]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oql4HY ) [23:52]
assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oql3ne ) [23:52]
asciilifeform (though his unit is not entirely the same) [23:53]
cazalla http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206849 <<< but what about getting a 2nd monitor so you can watch 2 fullscreen pornos at once [23:53]
assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:34:13; mircea_popescu: but past that... who the fuck cares. [23:53]
* trinque imagines cazalla trying to cross his eyes to look at both [23:53]
trinque lol [23:54]
* CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) [23:56]
ben_vulpes v expensive 3d solution [23:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51118 @ 0.00056031 = 28.6419 BTC [-] {2} [23:58]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36527 @ 0.00055158 = 20.1476 BTC [-] {2} [23:59]
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