Forum logs for 16 Jul 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: yes. some people, somehow, think this adds 'entropy'	[00:00]
asciilifeform	Rassah: i drew you a picture: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=jjqY9eTW	[00:00]
Rassah	We don't use hashing as a source of entropy, no. Only to combine ours with a salt	[00:00]
asciilifeform	Rassah: this is approximately the kind of pattern you end up with using sram on powerup	[00:00]
asciilifeform	Rassah: as you can see - if you turn this into a bitstring by pure 'raster' scan, it will contain mostly zero.	[00:01]
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asciilifeform	Rassah: by what means do you 'collect the entropy' ?	[00:01]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no matter. von neuman :D	[00:01]
Rassah	asciilifeform: We read the ram data directly	[00:01]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: von neumann of predictable bitstream is still predictable.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	but debiased!	[00:02]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: comput von neumann of '0101010101'.	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	i suspect a trick.	[00:03]
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mircea_popescu	!up ducky_	[00:04]
-assbot-	You voiced ducky_ for 30 minutes.	[00:04]
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mike_c	00000	[00:04]
mike_c	what do i win	[00:04]
Rassah	asciilifeform: It's a bit white (with 0's), but it's considerably more populated than that. This is the paper that we used to base this one, and it has some examples of the results http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.164.6432&rep=rep1&type=pdf	[00:05]
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Rassah	http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.164.6432	[00:05]
assbot	CiteSeerX — Power-up SRAM State as an Identifying Fingerprint and Source of True Random Numbers	[00:05]
asciilifeform	Rassah: we read the paper. (or at least, i did)	[00:05]
Rassah	ok	[00:05]
asciilifeform	Rassah: consider the title of the paper. do you see any apparent contradiction?	[00:05]
Rassah	Hah, Nikita just ran the output from our device as an actual example http://pastebin.com/yz2GnsKd	[00:06]
assbot	0000200: 00001011 00101101 11010100 11101010 .-.. 0000204: 11111101 01111100 1 - Pastebin.com	[00:06]
BingoBoingo	Rassah: Anyone ever wonder how the hell Brock, whom no one knew much about, got elected to the BF board, when the public either does't know him or hates his guts? To me that says connections of some sort... << 90's nostalgia	[00:07]
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Rassah	BingoBoingo: Name one movie (besides Mighty Ducks, where he had a sall cameo) that we was in? I've never even heard of him before bitcoin	[00:07]
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mike_c	it's not a cameo if you're not famous	[00:08]
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BingoBoingo	Rassah: Some thing where he went in time with knights or some shit. At first I confused him with Thomas Ian Nicholas. I think his popularity stems from this confusion.	[00:08]
asciilifeform	Rassah: not very interesting, i'm afraid. let's see the actual grid values - unprocessed.	[00:09]
Rassah	His movies are shit from what he told me	[00:09]
asciilifeform	Rassah: note that you would need to know the actual physical layout of atmel's die, to draw this picture. do you?	[00:09]
Rassah	asciilifeform: We'll publish those	[00:09]
asciilifeform	Rassah: it would have to be an electron micrograph. taken by somebody other than atmel.	[00:10]
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mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=569043.0;all << check that shit out	[00:11]
assbot	Auction of AdBit.co - Advertising network	[00:11]
Rassah	Will Atmel know what your seed and other entropy sources are? If not, why does it matter?	[00:11]
Rassah	LOL! Um...	[00:12]
asciilifeform	Rassah: atmel can replace your sram with whatever it likes.	[00:12]
Rassah	won't that cost them way more?	[00:12]
asciilifeform	Rassah: including, e.g. one that functions as an sram on all days but every 5th christmas.	[00:13]
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Rassah	and won't that make an excelent opportunity for someone to sell a device just like ours, using their own trusted sram chips? Maybe for more money, but more secure?	[00:13]
asciilifeform	Rassah: but all of this pales in comparison to another little observation. recall pg. 10 of the paper.	[00:13]
BingoBoingo	Rassah: ... Otherwise I don't know what the difference in implementation is between PGP and BTC signing << Other big difference is PGP signing has a nice container for inline signatures attached to signed human readable text of arbitrary length	[00:13]
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asciilifeform	Rassah: 'Skew shift is monotonic with respect to temperature. If an increase in temperature makes a neutral cell become 1-skewed, then decreasing the temperature will Fig. 11: This contour shows the probability distribution at 273 K and 323	[00:14]
asciilifeform	Rassah: K, of all cells that are neutral at 293 K. Note that the probability exceeds 0.04 at the highest points; these peaks are omitted to show the rest of the distribution with greater detail. See Section VI-B1 for discussion typically	[00:14]
Rassah	BingoBoingo: -----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----	[00:14]
Rassah	Comment: Signed by Bitcoin Armory v0.91.99	[00:14]
Rassah	You mean like this?	[00:14]
Rassah	-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNATURE-----	[00:14]
Rassah	HOmDGwDHYEtFRXWurHW7km9QCKWJMRVyqfPbsBOEQmvFVLTRQVOTAtB/OZHkTuxG	[00:14]
Rassah	UfcLmLUyQoCbsHWrWqApocg=	[00:14]
Rassah	=/98y	[00:14]
Rassah	-----END BITCOIN SIGNATURE-----	[00:14]
BingoBoingo	Rassah: And different clients produce diffent signoturds and expect different signaturds.	[00:15]
asciilifeform	Rassah: ergo: if i have a sufficiently precise graph of the temperature of your unit over time, i can infer something about the sram and which cells are responsible for the bulk of the input to rng.	[00:15]
mircea_popescu	o look at that, they DO listen.	[00:15]
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Rassah	asciilifeform: We've dealt with skew stuff too. I don't remember what it was, but it was addressed (I think we have more than enough enropy to work with or something)	[00:15]
BingoBoingo	!up nanotube	[00:15]
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Rassah	BingoBoingo: Blockchain.info is weird abou it, but bitcoin-qt, Armory, and Mycelium are all compatible	[00:16]
asciilifeform	Rassah: 'Skew shift is monotonic with respect to temperature. If an increase in temperature makes a neutral cell become 1-skewed, then decreasing the temperature will make that same cell 0-skewed.' << fixed bad paste	[00:16]
BingoBoingo	!up MarcSummers	[00:17]
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asciilifeform	Rassah: the skew we're talking about isn't rng output skew - the kind that can be addressed with von neuman's algo, etc. it's the actual physical effect you're using.	[00:17]
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Rassah	asciilifeform: From Nikita again: Most cells have too much skew to be useful. We suck entropy out of those whose skew is low. That's why there is ~21:1 cell-to-entropy ratio at room temperature on most devices. They had one device from Microchip IIRC, whose entropy was much lower, but the others were very close to the 20–21 ballpark. We analysed data from MRD SoC, which is in the bitcoincard, and got the same 21:1 ratio. Then I	[00:19]
Rassah	put it in the freezer in the kitchen and collected data while it was cooling down. There was still plenty at 0ºC, but it smoothly went down to zero entropy around -20º. The cells with high skew are those which effectively constitute device signature.	[00:19]
Rassah	We can say that the skews are randomly distributed among cells during manufacture, and then remain fixed; temperature shifts all skews.	[00:19]
BingoBoingo	Rassah: And the last tolerable version of Multibit does something else as well. When PGP/GPG has the ascii armored text block already it just isn't worth trying to replace it with bitcoin signing just to save a few bytes.	[00:19]
asciilifeform	Rassah: your friend has cemented my conclusion. i can figure out which cells are responsible for the device's output, merely by knowing your room temperature over time. and then all we have to do is run brute force over the narrowed set. (a few bits)	[00:20]
Rassah	BingoBoingo: You could just say "Bitcoin address doesn't support encryption, or storing identity inside the key"	[00:20]
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mircea_popescu	he could also say "i don't want my signature to be dependent on the code written last year by a bunch of dudebros"	[00:21]
BingoBoingo	Rassah: That too, but I just want to point out that even for signing cleartext, it isn't workable.	[00:21]
mircea_popescu	understandable, especially as pgp has been around for three decades.	[00:21]
Rassah	asciilifeform: So, if I use an entropy device to generate paper walets, you can bruteforce it by recording the temperature in my room???	[00:22]
asciilifeform	Rassah: evidently.	[00:23]
Rassah	I plug it into my printer, and make a paper walet. I put it away, and send money to the paper wallet. Then you......	[00:23]
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mircea_popescu	takes the stick, puts it in the freezer, melts it slowly, identifies the flip bits, counts them	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	tries all values of a few bits and finds your key.	[00:24]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i was hoping he'd figure it out, without you or i drawing the picture.	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	he's not tech, is he.	[00:24]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: betcha the tech won't read any of this.	[00:25]
Rassah	I am not tech, no. I wasn't aware that these things actually retained any bits when you yank them out	[00:25]
Rassah	asciilifeform: On the contrary, they are reading all of this	[00:25]
mircea_popescu	Rassah it's not that they retain bits. it's that they retain their behaviour.	[00:25]
asciilifeform	Rassah: if you read the paper, you will see that a small minority of sram cells is responsible for most of the 'random' behaviour.	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	all it takes is to find which, and/or count them	[00:26]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: incidentally, it may not eve be necessary to capture a particular unit. just one of her 'sisters.'	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	same batch, yea, obv. with a little luck they are exactly identical.	[00:27]
Rassah	So it's a good thing we're not relying on just SRAM fo the entropy then	[00:27]
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mircea_popescu	with a little less luck they're identical but physically translated in the plane.	[00:27]
asciilifeform	Rassah: also on voice of america picked up by loose adc inputs?	[00:27]
mircea_popescu	Rassah do you know what the cook said when the people in the restaurant didn't like his shit soup ?	[00:28]
Rassah	asciilifeform: Nikita: Well, yeah, you can narrow the range down to about 8000 bits.	[00:28]
kakobrekla	mircea_popescu leave the bits you dont like? :)	[00:29]
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mircea_popescu	kakobrekla lmao good one. but no, it was "thanks god i put some piss in there too, so it's not all shit"	[00:29]
kakobrekla	lol	[00:29]
asciilifeform	lol!!	[00:29]
Rassah	:D	[00:29]
Rassah	asciilifeform: Work on this device was started in early September. So we have had a lot of tests on the chips by people who have been working on bitcoin cryptography for years now. So it seems as if they are aware of most of these concerns...	[00:30]
asciilifeform	Rassah: 'they are aware of most of these concerns' << and still did nothing. this, you realize, is an accusation of willful scammitude. not mere ignorance.	[00:31]
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kakobrekla	do you go to church Rassah ?	[00:31]
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Rassah	kakobrekla: What kind of a question is that?	[00:32]
fluffypony	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc	[00:32]
assbot	"Weird Al" Yankovic - Word Crimes - YouTube	[00:32]
Rassah	Me: You're basically saying that, even if they stole the device and examined it, or stole one that was made right after it with similar chip characteristics, they'd still have 8000 bits of entropy to dea with, making their brutefocing impossible?	[00:32]
Rassah	Nikita: Yes.	[00:32]
asciilifeform	Rassah: what size sram ?	[00:33]
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Rassah	From another ech working on this: bruteforcing Ends at > 50 bits for most algos. some primitive ones can be done up to 70 bits	[00:34]
Rassah	Nikita: Total size 32 kBytes, we use about 21 kB as entropy source.	[00:34]
asciilifeform	Rassah: there are not 8000 uncorrelated bits in there.	[00:34]
mircea_popescu	bruteforcing Ends at > 50 bits for most algos. some primitive ones can be done up to 70 bits << wtf nonsense is this ?	[00:34]
Rassah	Different guy who does the software commenting about the software side of it? I have no idea	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	https://eprint.iacr.org/2010/006.pdf etc	[00:35]
asciilifeform	there is some typical 'confusion between the warm and the soft' here. the only bits that matter are entirely independent (in the statistical sense) ones.	[00:35]
Rassah	asciilifeform: You will be informed when our sources are released and you are invited to give his opiniion then <<-- Apparently my official statement	[00:36]
Rassah	asciilifeform: "He's wasting your time, that's obvious now." <<- not official statement	[00:36]
kakobrekla	lol	[00:36]
asciilifeform	Rassah: so! product sold first. sources published - sometime, maybe - later. interesting.	[00:36]
mircea_popescu	you know, i had told you this won't work about an hour ago.	[00:36]
Rassah	no, sources wll be published before product is out	[00:37]
mircea_popescu	at least the fact that it's been worked on since sept makes me feel a lot better.	[00:37]
Rassah	We have sources, we just don't want cheap chinese knockoffs undercutting us before we even ship	[00:37]
mircea_popescu	how much is it gonna cost ?	[00:38]
asciilifeform	Rassah: wait. you expect that your target market consists of people who would even contemplate buying a knockoff ?!!	[00:38]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[00:39]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2BPFDFM.txt )	[00:39]
Rassah	asciilifeform: Have you seen the chinese bitcoin mining market?	[00:39]
asciilifeform	Rassah: what do miners have to do with it ?	[00:40]
Rassah	And yes, if the software and hardware is completely open source and public, why wouldn't someone want to sell cheaper knockoffs? We hope we can still sell outs at a premium, due to our reputaton and such, but...	[00:40]
dub	http://www.wankcoin.com/	[00:40]
assbot	WANKCOIN \| Bank While You Wank!	[00:40]
dub	how did assets miss this?	[00:40]
Rassah	generic hardware is easy to reproduce	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	dub global cooling.	[00:41]
dub	1.21 jiggafaps	[00:41]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you got your pm s off or something?	[00:41]
Usage:	QUERY [-nofocus] , opens up a new privmsg window to someone	[00:41]
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mircea_popescu	dub check it out, #wankcoin	[00:41]
asciilifeform	actually i must admit that i am looking forward to these machines being produced, shipping, selling widely. because apparently there is only one way to educate people - let them piss on electric fence in person.	[00:42]
dub	https://www.bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-WKC	[00:43]
assbot	Bittrex.com - BTC-WKC Market	[00:43]
dub	Sex! Money! Power!. WANKCOIN!!!	[00:44]
BingoBoingo	http://www.gomerblog.com/2014/07/clinic/	[00:44]
assbot	In Bid to Cut Costs, Hospital Creates New Multi-Organ System Failure Clinic \| Medical Satire - GomerBlog	[00:44]
Rassah	asciilifeform: I take it you're one of those who thinks the only way to create a paper wallet is to buy a used $100 laptop, use diceware with at least 20 words, use the laptop to hash that into your private key and address, write it down by hand on paper using a hard glass surface, and then burn the laptop?	[00:44]
asciilifeform	Rassah: hash!?	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	dub is the page empty or just too jscripty for me ?	[00:45]
Rassah	asciilifeform: I use "hash" interchangeably with "compute with one of the inputs for the formula being your source of entropy, and the output being your private key	[00:45]
dub	mircea_popescu: works here	[00:45]
Rassah	Or do you think that Bitcoin is not secure, because the bitcoin address is hashed from the private key?	[00:46]
asciilifeform	Rassah: i have a perfectly adequate source of physical entropy. actually a small crate of them at this point.	[00:46]
dub	tl;dr bid is 0.00009875	[00:46]
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Rassah	asciilifeform: beer bottles and writin sourcecode while drunk?	[00:46]
BingoBoingo	Rassah: Address is hashed from public key...	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	details.	[00:47]
Rassah	BingoBoingo: I know. Priv > pub > address. I as shortening	[00:47]
Rassah	as = am	[00:47]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 69 @ 0.0119 = 0.8211 BTC [-]	[00:47]
BingoBoingo	If fucking is just about sticking your dick in a hole that accomodates it, I'm just going to get some pipe from the hardware store, saw it into dick length pieces, and sell them pocket pussies. What could go wrong???	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	isn't this fleshlight in nucet ?	[00:49]
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kakobrekla	and it does sell.	[00:50]
Rassah	This ting is made for people who are not techy (most of not bitcoiners) who won't be bothered to create a Tails linux distro on a USB, generate addresses on them using Bitaddress or something, printing to a USB connected priner, and wiping the printer. I think this device, where you plug t into your printer and hit print, will make bitcoin a hell of a lot easier to secure for the masses. And it costs a fracton of what the other	[00:50]
Rassah	options are. So, yeah, it's not perfect (with RNG nothing ever is). But it'll help	[00:50]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: No, I'm just cutting the pipe and selling it. A dick fits, what is this thing where a dick needs to do more than fit in something to fuck it. I'm just taking a shortcut.	[00:50]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo actually, here's an idea : silicone recipients filled with vodka.	[00:51]
Rassah	BingoBoingo: IF it's an uncut dick, that should work fine, but you'll have stiff competition from already existing holes, like couch cussons for instance	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	you drink the booze and then fuck the "bottle"	[00:51]
mircea_popescu	"A date in one!"	[00:51]
Rassah	stiff competition	[00:51]
asciilifeform	bbl	[00:52]
Rassah	I seriously hate this keyboard btw... It's a very old microsoft touch-type wireless ergonomic, and it misses the keys around the G and H constantly. But I'm too cheap of a bastard to get a better one. So, please ignore my typos, and don't let them reflect on my grammar skills (I took Latin, damnit!)	[00:53]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: That's a shortcut for the consumer. It's the opposite of a shortcut to produce. Doing the minimum is the right way to produce. Never mind we won't polish the burrs off the edges either.	[00:53]
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Rassah	bbl as well	[00:54]
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mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo what, you kidding ? just pour the caulk in a shape. cheapest shit ever.	[00:55]
BingoBoingo	Nah, we'll just let people hash their privates...	[00:55]
dub	just sale instructibles for digging dick sized hole in ground	[00:57]
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FabianB	Rassah: so it's mainly for the masses who want to store 0.01 btc on a paperwallet	[00:57]
mircea_popescu	FabianB hopefilly more than that, since it'll cost more than 6 bux i imagine	[00:58]
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FabianB	probably	[01:00]
[]bot	Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC to top $800 before August" http://bitbet.us/bet/994/ Odds: 24(Y):76(N) by coin, 24(Y):76(N) by weight. Total bet: 11.40823557 BTC. Current weight: 83,014.	[01:01]
[]bot	Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "LTC to $15USD or above before August 3rd" http://bitbet.us/bet/855/ Odds: 6(Y):94(N) by coin, 15(Y):85(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.59913185 BTC. Current weight: 18,143.	[01:01]
[]bot	Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "DJI to drop below 16000 before August" http://bitbet.us/bet/818/ Odds: 10(Y):90(N) by coin, 34(Y):66(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.620212 BTC. Current weight: 12,319.	[01:01]
[]bot	Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Crude Oil to reach $120 before August" http://bitbet.us/bet/941/ Odds: 11(Y):89(N) by coin, 22(Y):78(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.90944413 BTC. Current weight: 25,884.	[01:01]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 309 @ 0.00778049 = 2.4042 BTC [-] {34}	[01:12]
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benkay	not sure his profession // housewife	[01:26]
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benkay	so tech knowledge enough to be able to check how the software works, and maybe hardware knowledge to know what chips are being used in the schematic // well if its chips and an rng, asciilifeform's likely to tell you that unless you can inspect the chips (which you can't), you can't make claims about the RNG.	[01:30]
benkay	but i'm just a dog	[01:30]
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benkay	Rassah: I think << you are not the designer of this item ? // hee hee hee hee i'll just pop this corn	[01:34]
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BingoBoingo	;;bc,stats	[01:39]
gribble	Current Blocks: 310907 \| Current Difficulty: 1.733631697850783E10 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 312479 \| Next Difficulty In: 1572 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 9 hours, 51 minutes, and 15 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: 17899784284.5 \| Estimated Percent Change: 3.25021	[01:39]
benkay	wow what a logwall	[01:39]
BingoBoingo	Amazing logwall	[01:40]
benkay	amazon assbit	[01:40]
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BingoBoingo	Maybe there needs to be a backup instance of assbot named buttsett	[01:42]
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benkay	who won't be bothered to create a Tails linux distro on a USB, generate addresses on them using Bitaddress or something, printing to a USB connected priner, and wiping the printer // this is what one calls a "strawman" argument. as a person nominally involved in "public relations" you should never commit such derpitude in public.	[01:46]
benkay	!up Rassah	[01:46]
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pankkake	Bitaddress, trusting some random js prng?	[01:48]
pankkake	also, trusting your printer	[01:48]
BingoBoingo	Printers are the worst.	[01:48]
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benkay	!up Mats_cd03	[01:50]
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Mats_cd03	my nigga	[01:50]
benkay	sup baby	[01:50]
Mats_cd03	laptop with gpg died :<	[01:50]
benkay	baw haw haw	[01:50]
benkay	y u no backup, Mats_cd03	[01:50]
Mats_cd03	i can ddrescue the drive if i cant fix the machine	[01:50]
benkay	do that immediately!	[01:51]
Mats_cd03	i think i can though, just gonna put it through an alcohol bath (i spilled water on it)	[01:51]
benkay	oh for fucks sake	[01:51]
Mats_cd03	http://www.mpi-sws.org/~stevens/pubs/imc11.pdf real gud paper bout skype	[01:51]
mike_c	didn't you lose the one because you were stoned?	[01:51]
mike_c	*last	[01:51]
Mats_cd03	well yes	[01:51]
benkay	moi?	[01:51]
benkay	don't crypto and drugs	[01:51]
benkay	(do (or crypto drugs))	[01:52]
Mats_cd03	gay	[01:52]
benkay	don't hate the player	[01:52]
Mats_cd03	no but seriously read the paper	[01:52]
Mats_cd03	skype enables tracking by entities other than nsa	[01:53]
Mats_cd03	cause lol	[01:53]
BingoBoingo	So over a sample size of 2, drunk is less memory bad than stoned	[01:54]
dub	narcocryptoterrorists up in here	[01:55]
Mats_cd03	https://soundcloud.com/samfeldt/sander-van-doorn-firebeatz-guitar-track-sam-feldt-remix-free-download tropical house and sax	[01:59]
assbot	Sander Van Doorn & Firebeatz - Guitar Track (Sam Feldt Remix) [FREE DOWNLOAD] by Sam Feldt on SoundCloud - Hear the worlds sounds	[01:59]
Mats_cd03	oh man that conversation about the usb stick is hilarious	[02:01]
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Mats_cd03	alf bout to die	[02:02]
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asciilifeform	Mats_cd03: not quite dead. just had to drive home.	[02:07]
Mats_cd03	suffering from 'close enough' syndrome	[02:07]
Mats_cd03	(the usb stick team, anyway)	[02:08]
Mats_cd03	perfection is intellectually difficult, you know	[02:08]
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Mats_cd03	i found out today someone i used to play starcraft with patented ASLR	[02:10]
BingoBoingo	Mats_cd03: Not even perfection, merely "good enough" is a challenge in any endeavor	[02:10]
Mats_cd03	what a world huh	[02:10]
BingoBoingo	Huh	[02:10]
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Mats_cd03	(Skywing, Ken Johnson)	[02:10]
Mats_cd03	http://www.google.com/patents/US20090254726	[02:11]
assbot	Patent US20090254726 - Method of address space layout randomization for windows operating systems - Google Patents	[02:11]
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asciilifeform	starcraft with patented ASLR << wtf ?	[02:13]
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Mats_cd03	borked english. i found out today someone i used to play starcraft with, patented ASLR	[02:13]
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benkay	1. WoT	[02:14]
benkay	2. Start business	[02:14]
benkay	3. List	[02:14]
benkay	hue	[02:14]
asciilifeform	'a method of address space layout randomization for a Windows operating system.' << lol!	[02:14]
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Mats_cd03	i learned today you can sabotage EMET	[02:20]
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asciilifeform	!up Mats_cd03	[02:21]
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Mats_cd03	SetThreadContext is non-deterministically broken from XP x64 SP0 to Server 2008 R1 x64 SP2	[02:21]
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BingoBoingo	!up DoctorBTC	[02:22]
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Mats_cd03	cant protect any x64 browsers...qa didnt even test it	[02:22]
BingoBoingo	!up kyuupichan	[02:22]
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dub	the real question, is it bongwater in Mats_cd03's laptop	[02:23]
BingoBoingo	;;seen Cosmos	[02:25]
gribble	Cosmos was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 31 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: I brought entertainment & then I faded down to a speck of nothing	[02:25]
BingoBoingo	%t	[02:29]
atcbot	[X-BT] Bid: 210 Ask: 242 Last Price: 210 24h-Vol: 0k High: N/A Low: N/A VWAP: N/A	[02:29]
Mats_cd03	sorry... i meant to say it is deterministically broken. the subterfuge is non-deterministic	[02:30]
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Mats_cd03	also read this today http://www.hexeffect.com/virtual_deob.html discusses VM-based packers	[02:38]
assbot	HexEffect, LLC	[02:38]
BigBitz	interesting link, Mats_cd03.	[02:41]
asciilifeform	Mats_cd03: crapware authors went lazy ages ago. most use none - or standard - packers. standard packer -> standard unpacker.	[02:41]
Mats_cd03	as i understand it, vm-based packers are really hard to use properly	[02:41]
asciilifeform	many people write, e.g. a 'mips' (or other small instruction set) emulator and cross-compile for it. when you get hold of one of these, you can just extract the turd and disassemble using toolset for that cpu.	[02:42]
Mats_cd03	most crapware authors simply fuck it up when they try to implement the obfuscation	[02:42]
Mats_cd03	and the use-case for that sort of thing is limited anyway	[02:43]
Mats_cd03	you can do things like look for the VM license. lol.	[02:43]
Mats_cd03	'in the most amateur sense of 'fucking it up''	[02:44]
BingoBoingo	http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2559#comic	[02:44]
assbot	Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal	[02:44]
*	asciilifeform deals with this crud for a living	[02:44]
Mats_cd03	when my carpal tunnel gets better id like to do it full time	[02:45]
Mats_cd03	although im going to avoid dc at all costs	[02:45]
BingoBoingo	Mats_cd03: How is that going? Find anything that offers more relief yet?	[02:46]
Mats_cd03	its been milder recently, ive been typing a lot less (which means no coding unfortunately for benkay)	[02:48]
BingoBoingo	Rest works in mysterious ways	[02:49]
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Mats_cd03	i tried to teach dragon programming in c	[02:51]
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BingoBoingo	!up Mats_cd03	[02:51]
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Mats_cd03	ended up smashing a keyboard out of a fit of childish rage	[02:51]
Mats_cd03	computers, y u so stupid	[02:52]
BingoBoingo	Maybe you should give up and start keyboarding with your toes	[02:52]
mike_c	keyboards should be able to take a good beating. otherwise they are by (my) definition not fit for professionals.	[02:53]
asciilifeform	mike_c: 'ibm model m' is indestructible, short of power tools	[02:53]
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mike_c	one of its charms for sure	[02:53]
*	BingoBoingo offers a bastard file and patience	[02:54]
kakobrekla	btw mike there is a mod where you can make the model m office safe in terms of noise and the feedback is only slightly affected	[02:54]
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Mats_cd03	BigBitz: which one?	[02:55]
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BigBitz	the HexEffect link.	[02:56]
BigBitz	relating to VM obfuscating :)	[02:56]
kakobrekla	the way to do is - insert the very thick dental floss (oral b super floss) inside the springs, between 50 and 100% of the height	[02:56]
kakobrekla	worth giving a shot if you own one.	[02:57]
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asciilifeform	kakobrekla: cheaper to buy the neighbours their own 'model m' each	[02:57]
kakobrekla	defo not cheapers.	[02:57]
asciilifeform	well - cheaper if your time has value.	[02:57]
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kakobrekla	well if you count that, depends on the neighbor count	[02:58]
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kakobrekla	these boards arent exactly cheap anymore.	[02:58]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: they're still dirt cheap on 'ebay', etc. if you're willing to clean an ancient one.	[02:59]
kakobrekla	nevertheless people will resist using these.	[02:59]
kakobrekla	so you will spend time arguing.	[02:59]
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asciilifeform	kakobrekla: my recipe: a bucker, dishwasher detergent, soak overnight. wash in cold water. dry overnight.	[02:59]
asciilifeform	*bucket	[02:59]
kakobrekla	and cleaning is time is money again.	[02:59]
asciilifeform	keys & caps off.	[02:59]
asciilifeform	takes ~1/2 hr. total.	[03:00]
asciilifeform	(of actual doing, that is)	[03:00]
kakobrekla	prolly same as the mod :)	[03:00]
kakobrekla	lol.	[03:00]
kakobrekla	im terminating this conversation now	[03:00]
kakobrekla	ctrl c	[03:00]
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BingoBoingo	!up cowloon	[03:02]
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BingoBoingo	!up mikaeldice	[03:02]
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BingoBoingo	!up Ginux	[03:02]
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BingoBoingo	http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2582#comic	[03:04]
assbot	Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal	[03:04]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [RENT] 183 @ 0.00439984 = 0.8052 BTC [+] {2}	[03:24]
BingoBoingo	!up Mats_cd03	[03:27]
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BingoBoingo	Lulzfarm https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=696475.msg7464333;boardseen#new	[03:29]
assbot	HELP ;SOME IS STEALING MY BITCOIN;IT GOT 1 CONFIRMATION!!! 1min ago	[03:29]
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Mats_cd03	http://decompiler.fit.vutbr.cz/decompilation/	[03:36]
assbot	Retargetable Decompiler	[03:36]
BingoBoingo	http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/07/15/yahoo_quarterly_earnings_plunging_ad_prices_pull_down_revenue.html	[03:37]
assbot	Yahoo quarterly earnings: Plunging ad prices pull down revenue.	[03:37]
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asciilifeform	Mats_cd03: 'ida hexray' is the only one i've ever seen that was actually usable for anything practical.	[03:39]
Mats_cd03	mostly average overall but decompilation of asm to c is pretty good	[03:39]
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asciilifeform	incidentally, very few products have a monopoly as total as that of 'ida.'	[03:40]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 35 @ 0.02890175 = 1.0116 BTC [-]	[03:42]
Mats_cd03	i cant say i like working with ida	[03:42]
asciilifeform	Mats_cd03: the issue isn't whether one likes it, but whether any practical substitute (other than 'objdump' and 10-100x the time/sweat) exists.	[03:43]
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Mats_cd03	add it to the bucket list	[03:45]
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copumpkin	asciilifeform: have you seen hopper?	[03:46]
asciilifeform	copumpkin: yes. seemed like a joke (at least in comparison)	[03:47]
copumpkin	how so?	[03:47]
asciilifeform	the decompiler appears to be mostly worthless. and the tool runs only under mac os.	[03:47]
mike_c	kakobrekla: i have heard that the das mechanical keyboards are the modern version of the m, and they have a silent version. i tried one for a few minutes once and liked it. but not ergonomic.	[03:48]
kakobrekla	they use mx switches ?	[03:48]
asciilifeform	mike_c: the recent 'model m' clones are based on lexmark's version. somewhat shoddier mechanically than original.	[03:48]
copumpkin	asciilifeform: yeah, the decompiler output seems kinda flaky and silly. The Mac OS thing doesn't seem like a big deal that makes it a "monopoly"	[03:48]
copumpkin	alternatives exist, and buying a mac and hopper can be cheaper than getting hex rays :P	[03:48]
asciilifeform	copumpkin: don't misunderstand - if there were an actual substitute, and it only ran under, whatever, ultrix, that'd count	[03:49]
mike_c	they use mechanical switches. not sure what mx means	[03:49]
copumpkin	but yeah, hex-rays is pretty good	[03:49]
asciilifeform	but there isn't an actual substitute.	[03:49]
kakobrekla	interestingly, the ergonomic model m goes for about a grand on ebay when it pops up from time to time	[03:49]
mike_c	http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/mechanical-keyboard-guide/	[03:49]
assbot	Mechanical Keyboard Guide \| Das Keyboard Blog	[03:49]
Mats_cd03	im not good with ida and i cant comment on substitutes, although i have spent a fair amount of time trying (radare, mostly)	[03:49]
copumpkin	well, from what I've seen (i just started tinkering with hopper a couple of days ago, so I dunno), the basic hopper disassembler interface/functionality isn't all that different from IDA's	[03:49]
asciilifeform	what's 'ergonomic' here ?	[03:49]
copumpkin	asciilifeform: unless you like obscure CPUs	[03:49]
asciilifeform	copumpkin: yes, i do a fair bit of non-x86.	[03:50]
copumpkin	non-ARM, non-x86?	[03:50]
mike_c	kakobrekla: yes. "Cherry MX mechanical key switches with gold contacts"	[03:50]
asciilifeform	copumpkin: yes.	[03:50]
copumpkin	ah, then yes	[03:50]
Mats_cd03	as well as a project known as vivisect, which is also python like radare	[03:50]
kakobrekla	which ones did you get? theres like 10 kinds.	[03:50]
kakobrekla	(marked by color)	[03:51]
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Mats_cd03	decompiler? not to be seen. but, other RE tools are for the most part available...	[03:51]
mike_c	i tried the http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-ultimate/ that my coworker was using.	[03:51]
assbot	Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate \| Mechanical Keyboard	[03:51]
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mike_c	blank keys.. so l33t	[03:51]
kakobrekla	check out also wasd keyborads	[03:52]
mike_c	i can't do non-ergonomic	[03:52]
BingoBoingo	mike_c: It's 2014 already. Why are they censoring the keyboard's clit?	[03:52]
mike_c	drives me nuts	[03:52]
asciilifeform	mike_c: what makes a keyboard 'ergonomic' in your view ?	[03:53]
mike_c	i like the split and raised ones	[03:53]
mike_c	BingoBoingo: you lost me :)	[03:53]
kakobrekla	das kbd does not have such one?	[03:53]
mike_c	i haven't seen it, which is why i don't own one.	[03:54]
kakobrekla	http://webwit.nl/input/ibm_m15/m15-5.jpg	[03:54]
BingoBoingo	mike_c: A proper keyboard (portable machine or not) ought to have a Thinkpad style clit.	[03:55]
mike_c	interesting. i've never tried the split and flat ones	[03:55]
kakobrekla	you can get those.	[03:55]
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mike_c	BingoBoingo: you mean the little rubber dot in the middle? you use that thing?	[03:56]
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kakobrekla	or make one http://ergodox.org	[03:56]
mike_c	i only use those for bringing to datacenter	[03:56]
assbot	500 - Internal server error.	[03:56]
dub	<3 the clit	[03:56]
BingoBoingo	mike_c: Occasionally	[03:56]
dub	fuck trackpads	[03:56]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 200 @ 0.0028299 = 0.566 BTC [-]	[03:56]
dub	clit is useless without stinkpad scroll key tho	[03:57]
*	assbot removes voice from Mats_cd03	[03:57]
BingoBoingo	What does no one have a scroll button on their keyboards either?	[03:57]
BingoBoingo	!up Mats_cd03	[03:57]
*	assbot gives voice to Mats_cd03	[03:57]
mike_c	kakobrekla: wtf :) no wasd keys?	[03:58]
kakobrekla	for hardcore gamers	[03:58]
dub	lol	[03:58]
dub	extra 1mm throw is making me laggy	[03:58]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 604 @ 0.0028299 = 1.7093 BTC [-]	[03:58]
kakobrekla	mhm	[03:58]
copumpkin	still not mpex?	[03:59]
copumpkin	*no	[03:59]
dub	scam tbh	[03:59]
mike_c	mpex-otc. wadda you want.	[04:00]
copumpkin	I thought it was gonna be monday	[04:00]
dub	kakobrekla: waiting for diehard cs 1.6 players to take fingers back to first knuckle now	[04:00]
mike_c	wtb: s.mpoe @ 0.0005	[04:00]
kakobrekla	lol	[04:01]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 800 @ 0.0026715 = 2.1372 BTC [-] {20}	[04:04]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 249 @ 0.00263257 = 0.6555 BTC [-] {4}	[04:05]
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BingoBoingo	Old news becomes new news http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/07/only-a-few-days-old-openssl-fork-libressl-is-declared-unsafe-for-linux/	[04:18]
assbot	Only a few days old, OpenSSL fork LibreSSL is declared unsafe for Linux \| Ars Technica	[04:18]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 255 @ 0.00261288 = 0.6663 BTC [-] {6}	[04:24]
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BingoBoingo	!up Mats_cd03	[04:29]
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mircea_popescu	so whenever reddit gets inflamed about the injustice of mp, bitbet gets carpetbombed with bets.	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	maybe i should kidnap some of these kids and torture them in my basement, to fix the economy ?	[04:44]
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mircea_popescu	Mats_cd03 but nobody uses skype anyways	[04:46]
mircea_popescu	Mats_cd03: SetThreadContext is non-deterministically broken from XP x64 SP0 to Server 2008 R1 x64 SP2 <<< ahahahaha	[04:47]
mircea_popescu	o gawd.	[04:47]
*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	i keep buying the funny papers and reading this chan. then i lol here and i am all disappointed in the funny papers.	[04:48]
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mircea_popescu	not to mention they're in fucking spanish.	[04:48]
nubbins`	was just about to ask if they carry Hi and Lois	[04:48]
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mircea_popescu	nah.	[04:49]
mircea_popescu	Mats_cd03 you know you can dictate.	[04:49]
BingoBoingo	Dictation much like keyboarding is a skill.	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	"{to be honest timmy, having read your attempts to make a pump and dump coin, to also make a HYIP scam.. i feel sorry for anyone losing coin... but not so much with you."	[04:52]
BingoBoingo	Most disturbing part about that report was he had a whole BTC to lose.	[04:53]
mircea_popescu	"i downloaded this from here, and clicked on it,while my virus program was not activ.i just wanted to see"	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	impulse driven "halp i am a student i have no monyz"	[04:55]
mircea_popescu	student is becoming worse than bum.	[04:56]
BingoBoingo	The site hosting the malware in question if you make to the end of the thread atm was revealed to be a "cheat" for some coinflip gambling game.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	yup	[04:56]
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BingoBoingo	You'd think when somone creates the sort of tool he googled and instead recieved a virus for the tool's creator would instead bleed the target dry.	[04:58]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c: i like the split and raised ones << i've never used one of the splitsd	[05:01]
*	assbot gives voice to hanbot	[05:02]
mircea_popescu	copumpkin: I thought it was gonna be monday << so did i.	[05:02]
BingoBoingo	!up hanbot	[05:03]
*	assbot gives voice to hanbot	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/07/only-a-few-days-old-openssl-fork-libressl-is-declared-unsafe-for-linux/ << look at that, it was the rng.	[05:03]
assbot	Only a few days old, OpenSSL fork LibreSSL is declared unsafe for Linux \| Ars Technica	[05:03]
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BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Well, it was born knowing it would be the RNG. The problem is do the devs make shims or does Linuxen fix itself	[05:04]
BingoBoingo	hanbot: yw	[05:04]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: In the comments you can see the new psyops angle, "The cruft was good! Mysterymeat Nourishes!"	[05:06]
mircea_popescu	theo's response is pretty weak too.	[05:07]
BingoBoingo	Yeah	[05:08]
BingoBoingo	The problem of taking action to fix a problem is that at some point you will have to take more action.	[05:08]
BingoBoingo	Because you now own 1+N more problems.	[05:09]
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cazalla	yo i heard you like #bitcoin-assets so we put mircea_popescu in your dreams so you can #bitcoin-assets while you sleep, no homo	[05:13]
mircea_popescu	wait wut ?	[05:13]
BingoBoingo	http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140715120259 << "The question now was how to integrate it. OpenBSD developers don't like huge diffs for a very good reason. After fixing the inode format and adding new flags, Ted pointed out the ancient rule "whoever touched it last now becomes the maintainer" was valid even here."	[05:14]
assbot	g2k14: Martin Pelikan on ext4, filesystems in general	[05:14]
cazalla	mircea_popescu, so i had this dream about you, in a lobby, it was eyes wide shut-esque except you wouldn't let me come upstairs where the women were but then you sent 2 down to me at the bar so i was content	[05:15]
mircea_popescu	pankkake so how much does a bernakoin go for yet ?	[05:15]
mircea_popescu	cazalla o.O	[05:15]
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mircea_popescu	http://i.imgur.com/PDdkcGR.gif	[05:17]
cazalla	logs were a good read this morning	[05:17]
BingoBoingo	Eh, sometimes I have nightmares where truffles is still on BA and somehow IPO'd his hatred of reading.	[05:17]
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BingoBoingo	;;seen truffles	[05:17]
gribble	truffles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 13 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, and 29 seconds ago: tell me when the experiment is over	[05:17]
mircea_popescu	ow god truffles.	[05:17]
mircea_popescu	did you get some ?	[05:18]
cazalla	who me? no, wasn't that sort of dream	[05:20]
mircea_popescu	no lol, hanbot	[05:20]
mircea_popescu	of course you didn't get some. you're married.	[05:20]
cazalla	tell me about it	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	http://bitbet.us/bet/994/btc-to-top-800-before-august/	[05:21]
assbot	BitBet - BTC to top $800 before August :: 2.7 B (24%) on Yes, 8.73 B (76%) on No \| closing in 1 week 5 days \| weight: 81`867 (100`000 to 1)	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	3:1 huh	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	;;ticker	[05:22]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 621.87, Best ask: 624.48, Bid-ask spread: 2.61000, Last trade: 624.48, 24 hour volume: 3502.82343466, 24 hour low: 616.09, 24 hour high: 626.25, 24 hour vwap: 622.077369513	[05:22]
mike_c	;;calc 3500*[ticker --last]	[05:22]
gribble	2185680	[05:22]
mircea_popescu	;;calc [ticker --last]*[ticker --last]	[05:23]
gribble	389975.2704	[05:23]
asciilifeform	it was the rng << snore. big fat surprise.	[05:23]
asciilifeform	http://i.imgur.com/PDdkcGR.gif << what's the reaction here?	[05:24]
*	danielpbarron is guessing the colored gas is ionized	[05:25]
mircea_popescu	no idea rly.	[05:26]
*	BingoBoingo is guessing 70's special effects work	[05:26]
asciilifeform	looks more like chromatography paper + dyes.	[05:26]
asciilifeform	(time-lapse film)	[05:27]
nubbins`	i was gonna say colored oil spheres colliding underwater	[05:27]
nubbins`	i guess i still am saying it	[05:27]
Rassah	benkay: this is what one calls a "strawman" argument. // actually this is what is being suggested that people do to create secure paper wallets. I am suggesting that ours is comparable. At the least because people who use that method don't check the RNGs of the systems they use, and at the most because we don't actually use an RNG chip, and use our own source of randomness.	[05:27]
benkay	nobody in this room had suggested that.	[05:28]
benkay	latinate dudebro do you even strawman?	[05:28]
Rassah	benkay: I didn't say that is what is being suggested here. That is, in fact, what is being suggested in places all over outside of here. No one has suggested anything here, other than that the method I am involved wit is worse than...	[05:30]
cazalla	"People think that Bitcoin is too expensive, and they would rather purchase Litecoins. " https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=21124.0	[05:32]
assbot	Litecoin's silver analogy	[05:32]
nubbins`	i think that a car is too expensive, i would rather purchase a sandwich	[05:32]
nubbins`	can't drive to work in a sandwich? who cares!	[05:32]
Rassah	It's not even that. The two are just arbitrary measures. It's more like, I think driving at 105kmh is too fast. I'll just drive at 65mph instead	[05:35]
nubbins`	i think repairing my broken relationship with my son is too hard. i'll just have a daughter instead	[05:37]
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*	assbot gives voice to decimation	[05:47]
decimation	re: rolling dice to generate RSA keypair << this is not straightforward at all, and in general you are going to end up seeding some kind of RNG to produce your primes to test	[05:47]
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benkay	Rassah: saying that doesn't make it any less of a retarded strawman argument in this context.	[05:52]
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benkay	Eh, sometimes I have nightmares where truffles is still on BA and somehow IPO'd his hatred of reading. // interestingly, truffles is a female.	[05:53]
Rassah	benkay: a lot of tings said on the topic of that Entropy device have been very retarded	[05:55]
benkay	mostly on the topic of getting entropy out of sram imho	[05:56]
danielpbarron	Rassah, you interested in selling your BTC for cash in the mail on a regular basis? I am very interested	[05:58]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [RENT] 138 @ 0.00420949 = 0.5809 BTC [-] {5}	[05:58]
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mircea_popescu	i think that a car is too expensive, i would rather purchase a sandwich <	[06:03]
mthreat	Rassah et al: Would an accelerometer be a good source of entropy? "shake to randomize"	[06:03]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` omfg dude i laughed so hard at your stupid driven sandwich i actually puked a little.	[06:04]
mircea_popescu	im not even making this shit up	[06:04]
mircea_popescu	decimation he prolly means just for the entropy.	[06:05]
mircea_popescu	benkay now how would you know that.	[06:05]
Rassah	mthreat: Not as much. Since the motions will be repettitive, you will get only a small amount of variance from that. We had considered something similar, with maybe having to press a button a bunch of times and use the timing diference, but it adds an insignificant amount compared to what we get from the chip already	[06:05]
benkay	intel boss	[06:06]
mircea_popescu	mthreat no. this because the high bytes are too predictable (shake) and the low bytes too predictable (cheap accelerometer fingerprint)	[06:06]
benkay	mircea_popescu: re: truffles?	[06:06]
mircea_popescu	yes.	[06:06]
benkay	conversations.	[06:06]
asciilifeform	nitpick: anything you can 'seed' is not an rng.	[06:06]
benkay	hee hee hee i got the rng flamewards going again	[06:07]
mircea_popescu	benkay eh what, you can tell.	[06:08]
*	asciilifeform not really awake enough for a good flaemfest. but will point out that mechanical rng setups are prone to wear effects.	[06:08]
decimation	ascii sorry prng	[06:08]
mircea_popescu	anyway, that's been all for me. later all.	[06:09]
asciilifeform	decimation: why would you want to produce weaponized rsa primes from a prng ?	[06:09]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[17:50]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[17:50]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[17:50]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[17:50]
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*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[17:50]
mircea_popescu	benkay yeah	[17:50]
mircea_popescu	!up Adohgg	[17:51]
-assbot-	You voiced Adohgg for 30 minutes.	[17:51]
*	assbot gives voice to Adohgg	[17:51]
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nubbins`	!up miaoux	[17:51]
*	assbot gives voice to miaoux	[17:51]
nubbins`	but seriously though, the guy bought WAL-MART BRAND t-shirts	[17:52]
nubbins`	as an additional "fuck you", he specifically purchased shirts that are not 100% cotton	[17:52]
nubbins`	i tell ya, these people	[17:52]
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miaoux	thanks nubbins` ;)	[17:53]
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mircea_popescu	nubbins` you should prolly start ba's own cfh.	[17:55]
nubbins`	cfh	[17:56]
nubbins`	;;ud cfh	[17:56]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=CFH \| The CFH is a hardcore street gang that originated in the Wayzata/Plymouth area in Minnesota. The gang is identified by the color green. The main ri...	[17:56]
mircea_popescu	like a blog where lulzy stuff is detailed. "The Shirts Story". "How BFL Delivered and BitBet ripped off its users"	[17:56]
*	nubbins` raises eyebrow	[17:56]
mircea_popescu	;;google clients from hell	[17:56]
gribble	Clients From Hell: ; Clients From Hell: ; Top Client Stories - Clients From Hell:	[17:56]
nubbins`	ah ah.	[17:56]
nubbins`	an online outlet for my sharp witticisms	[17:56]
mircea_popescu	ahgahahah oh help me rwanda. hardcore street gang from... plymouth, mn ?!	[17:57]
nubbins`	that's sort of what facebook is for, but i can't make fun of specific people	[17:57]
nubbins`	inorite?	[17:57]
nubbins`	OH SHIT SON HE'S WEARING CFH GREEN	[17:57]
mircea_popescu	what, they have streets in minnesota ?	[17:57]
mircea_popescu	i bet the van buren boys could kick cfh's ass.	[17:57]
nubbins`	i wonder if somewhere there's a girl named R'Wanda	[17:58]
mircea_popescu	lol	[17:58]
nubbins`	imagine	[17:58]
nubbins`	or a drag queen called RuWanda	[17:58]
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mircea_popescu	http://nypost.com/2007/03/09/help-me-rwanda/	[17:59]
assbot	HELP ME, RWANDA \| New York Post	[17:59]
nubbins`	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shake_Hands_with_the_Devil_(book)	[18:00]
assbot	Shake Hands with the Devil (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[18:00]
nubbins`	not just belgians on the ground!	[18:01]
mircea_popescu	actually, my next door neighbour is a drag queen. incredibly, doesn't like to go out much, orders in pretty much every day.	[18:01]
mircea_popescu	isn't this something else ? a drag queen shut in ?	[18:01]
nubbins`	not too unusual	[18:02]
mircea_popescu	really ?	[18:02]
nubbins`	what better way for a shut-in to get out once a week/month than to put on a new face	[18:02]
nubbins`	i can't think of anyone into drag that's not at least a semi-recluse	[18:03]
mircea_popescu	so fucxking weird, because in my heteronormative cisscum patriarchical view of the world,	[18:03]
mircea_popescu	which just so happens to exactly mesh with sanity,	[18:03]
*	nubbins` chuckles	[18:03]
mircea_popescu	it'd seem if you go to all the trouble to dress up like a circus freak, except permanently, you'd better be very very much INTO circus.,	[18:04]
mircea_popescu	then again i guess sexual deviancy is born out of psychological issues, not a disregard for social norms in the quest for personal enjoyment. nttawwt	[18:04]
nubbins`	i'm into printing shirts, doesn't mean i do it outside ;D	[18:06]
mircea_popescu	no, but it does mean you like to print.	[18:06]
nubbins`	find out when your neighbour DOES leave the house, and then see what debauchery they get into	[18:07]
mircea_popescu	im not about to stalk random people, srsly.	[18:07]
asciilifeform	mpex still building ?	[18:08]
nubbins`	http://goo.gl/chyk1Z	[18:08]
assbot	Naked Lunch - William S. Burroughs - Google Books	[18:08]
nubbins`	probably best not to stalk	[18:08]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform still.	[18:08]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` i used to, when i was younger and less experienced, i'd see a pretty thing in the street, send the guard to tail her find out where she lives. this resulted in lulziness on more than one occasion.	[18:09]
mircea_popescu	but by now i just can't summon teh interest on the basis of looks for crying out loud.	[18:09]
mike_c	i think your neighbor is just a cross-dresser. introverted drag queen is oxymoron.	[18:10]
mircea_popescu	mike_c fucking clown wigs and everything ?	[18:11]
nubbins`	implication is that introverts don't perform in public :0	[18:11]
mike_c	lol. ok, first time for everything i guess.	[18:11]
mircea_popescu	i thought the campyness was the distinguishing factor.	[18:11]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` well yeah.	[18:11]
nubbins`	you guise	[18:11]
nubbins`	http://i.imgur.com/uXXFbnB.jpg	[18:12]
nubbins`	bbl, back to twerk	[18:12]
mircea_popescu	omfg nubbins is a crossdancer.	[18:12]
mircea_popescu	he TWERKS	[18:12]
benkay	;;ud crossdancer	[18:15]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The%20Smashing%20Narwhal \| Apr 10, 2009 ... ... brute bulldog bumbercar butterfly cowboy cradle cross dancer deck chair deep impact stick making a delight doggystyle postion appearing to ...	[18:15]
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benkay	oh man it's too early for me to reconcile the inflation nooz with the steel production glut nooz http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/07/16/pain-spreads-from-chinas-excess-production/	[18:16]
assbot	Pain Spreads From Chinas Excess Production - China Real Time Report - WSJ	[18:16]
benkay	demand goes down because prices will be lower tomorrow, which exacerbates the supply problem as nobody can unload goods at a profit?	[18:17]
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mircea_popescu	yes.	[18:19]
mircea_popescu	welcome to the free market.	[18:19]
mircea_popescu	people, in general, alone as well as in groups, have one thing on their mind : how to fuck other people in the ass.	[18:19]
mircea_popescu	if they can gang together on theproducers, they will.	[18:19]
*	darlidada has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[18:20]
mircea_popescu	the feminist is not interested in any positive goal as much as she's interested in "fucking up" the dudebro.	[18:20]
mircea_popescu	etc.	[18:20]
mircea_popescu	it's what makes life fun.	[18:20]
*	assbot removes voice from Adohgg	[18:21]
*	assbot removes voice from miaoux	[18:22]
asciilifeform	wtf is a 'dudebro'	[18:23]
pankkake	;;ud dudebro	[18:23]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dudebro \| Dude bro's are incredibly insecure in their manhood, which makes them: insanely jealous of their girl friends, overly macho, and laughably homophobic.	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform given the comutative body made out of popkids and 30yo unemployed postdocs,	[18:23]
mircea_popescu	a dudebro is the comutative equivalent of the feminist, in any nonsexual operation.	[18:24]
asciilifeform	aha, them.	[18:24]
asciilifeform	lol	[18:24]
mircea_popescu	shit i'm good at this, i should make my own shanonizer.	[18:24]
pankkake	;;ud shanonizer	[18:25]
gribble	Google found nothing.	[18:25]
asciilifeform	pankkake: e.g. 'dissociated press'	[18:25]
mircea_popescu	;;google shanonnizer	[18:25]
gribble	No matches found.	[18:25]
mircea_popescu	fucking grammar azi.	[18:25]
benkay	%t	[18:27]
atcbot	[X-BT] Bid: 210 Ask: 242 Last Price: 210 24h-Vol: 26k High: 210 Low: 210 VWAP: 210	[18:27]
benkay	mod6: atcbot left #pdxtech-btc	[18:28]
benkay	http://www.geektime.com/2014/06/23/ibm-is-building-a-cloud-system-in-egypt-and-will-train-100-companies-in-the-region/ // hm no mobile boom over there yet? still getting on the cludwagen?	[18:29]
assbot	IBM is building a cloud system in Egypt and will train 100 companies in the region \| GeekTime	[18:29]
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benkay	the Fed said that while it didn’t generally view asset prices as excessive, valuations for social media and biotechnology firms “appear to be stretched,”	[18:31]
mod6	ok benkay, i'll restart it.	[18:32]
mike_c	who put the fed in charge of valuing biotech firms?	[18:33]
benkay	and apropos only of the babefeeds: http://imgur.com/TrwuNH2	[18:33]
assbot	I love 90's Rock - Imgur	[18:33]
benkay	they're in charge of valuing the whole economy, mike_c	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	mike_c it's the central bank, kinda its job to broadly value all sectors.	[18:33]
mircea_popescu	how did you think central bank systems work ?	[18:34]
mike_c	i didn't realize they were handing out stock picks.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	sector tho.	[18:34]
mircea_popescu	this is pretty much the #1 job of the central banker : to evaluate which sectors are overheating and which are underheating, and to try and bring equal heat somehow.	[18:35]
mike_c	this is retarded on its face.	[18:35]
mircea_popescu	i am not supporting rhe central bank system.	[18:35]
mircea_popescu	you just happen to live in one.	[18:35]
benkay	mike_c: http://thegeekiary.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10514163_10153083113518569_5085828363159786149_o.jpg	[18:36]
mircea_popescu	it does work exceedingly well in small countries with exceptionally gifted cbs, as romania will attest (and before that, azn minor players)	[18:36]
mircea_popescu	when people were bitching that greenspan was "asleep on the job", da fuck do you think they meant ? housing overheated without him realising it.	[18:37]
mike_c	and the central bank will do what about "overheated biotech"	[18:38]
mike_c	not like fannie mae is funding them.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	taper.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	obviously what's funding them.	[18:39]
asciilifeform	Gosplan!	[18:39]
mike_c	that won't cool biotech, it cools everything. they have no sector-by-sector levers.	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	but anyway, this was the fundamental argument of the euroskeptics as to wtf is wrong with the euro : replacing twenty cbs with just one merely further exacerbates the centralisation problem	[18:39]
mircea_popescu	mike_c no ?!	[18:39]
mike_c	right, no. *afaik.	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	what, you're telling me because the us as a whole is in freefall because pretty much any field you look at consists of people given tasks they can't do with tools that can't do them ?!	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	how the fuck was the army supposed to win vietnam ? start there.	[18:40]
mircea_popescu	of fucking course. they have no tools and the job alloted is in principle not doable anyway.	[18:41]
mike_c	well then stop sticking up for the fed!	[18:41]
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mircea_popescu	omfg im just explaining how this is supposed to work.	[18:41]
mike_c	(that last was a troll ;) )	[18:41]
mircea_popescu	lolk	[18:41]
mike_c	benkay: nice pic. is that the last fed meeting?	[18:43]
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mike_c	!up ThickAsThieves	[18:44]
*	assbot gives voice to ThickAsThieves	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	anyway, for that matter, the big part in there is "didn’t generally view asset prices as excessive".	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	translated in normal speak that's "omfg we're losing it across the board here."	[18:44]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 700 @ 0.0026309 = 1.8416 BTC [-] {13}	[18:45]
mircea_popescu	you just picked the other part because you mismanaged your book and are now overexposed to the pits. just like any other young, bright, ambitious GS fundboy.	[18:46]
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mike_c	hah. nah, i don't do biotech. i prefer revenue-generating activities as opposed to funding R&D.	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	(that last was a troll ;) )	[18:46]
mike_c	nice. ok, we're even.	[18:47]
mircea_popescu	my magical clipboard, look what things i found.	[18:47]
*	assbot gives voice to ThickAsThieves	[18:47]
mike_c	!down ThickAsThieves	[18:48]
ThickAsThieves	:P	[18:48]
mike_c	assbot seems to have this figure out these days	[18:48]
ThickAsThieves	http://igaming.org/poker/news/former-ceo-of-satoshi-poker-states-new-owners-doesnt-wish-to-pay-players/	[18:48]
assbot	Former CEO of Satoshi Poker States new Owners Doesn't Wish to Pay Players	[18:48]
ThickAsThieves	in case any of you remember the SatPok lulz	[18:48]
mike_c	what did that sell for? single-digit btc right?	[18:48]
mircea_popescu	which was satoshi poker again ?	[18:49]
danielpbarron	how have i never heard of satoshi poker	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	this is starting to sound like a psychopath act, "i am now Maria and Maria doesn't want to pay you"	[18:49]
mike_c	" he sold Satoshi Poker for a plane ticket home from Thailand" yeah, that's what i thought.	[18:50]
ThickAsThieves	lol	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	this was owned by a few assholes	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	one being the bitcoinpride tshirt guy	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	of that "professional" douche	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	s/of/oh	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	they repeatedly tried unloading shares	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	they got ukyo in	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	angled for me a few times	[18:52]
ThickAsThieves	coincidentally one of the pitches was from an airport	[18:52]
ThickAsThieves	something like i'm travelling and i need money	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	you know, being a bum must suck ever so.	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	not so much for the people who've not had a shower in a week plus and are being pushed outof the tenderloin	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	as for the kids that keep going to airports pretending like they belong there.	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	i'm gonna start asking "aren't you supposed to be cutting some sugar cane or something ? what are you doing here boy ?"	[18:54]
ThickAsThieves	the life a man leads is punishment enough	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	the unexamined life is not worth living.	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	runaway slave must at some point be confronted with the reality that no matter how he's pretending, there's a plantation somewhere missing his dumb ass,	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	and a supervisor with the lash ready.	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	you don't just up and walk away.	[18:57]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.79167912 BTC to 12`353 shares, 14504 satoshi per share	[19:00]
mircea_popescu	http://www.senado.gov.ar/parlamentario/comisiones/verExp/1918.14/S/PL << meanwhile the argentines want isps to block pronsites.	[19:01]
mircea_popescu	this is a country where prostitution is legal but abortion illegal.	[19:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 22.75826252 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 1979 satoshi per share	[19:01]
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danielpbarron	in all trimesters?	[19:03]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 180 @ 0.0028013 = 0.5042 BTC [+] {2}	[19:04]
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*	Disconnected (Network is unreachable).	[19:29]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[19:29]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[19:29]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[19:29]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[19:29]
-NickServ-	You failed to identify in time for the nickname mircea_popescu	[19:30]
*	You are now known as Guest36037	[19:30]
pankkake	http://www.opennicproject.org/ the "biggest" ICANN alternative, added namecoin .bit support	[19:30]
assbot	\| OpenNIC Project	[19:30]
ThickAsThieves	someone should do an article on easy steps to set up a .bit domain to point your current .* one, drop a bunch of trendy words like decentralizedautocoinification and post it to reddit	[19:30]
pankkake	artifexd: more entities to annoy, more chances that one puts up a fight and doesn't censor as easily; also, most TLDs currently depend of governments	[19:30]
pankkake	some devs updated the namecoin GUI to help with registering domains - haven't tried it but it's admirable volunteer work :)	[19:32]
pankkake	otherwise you'd have to write the JSON config yourself	[19:32]
*	danielpbarron has some Namecoin names registered	[19:32]
ThickAsThieves	yeah you can everything in the wallet	[19:32]
danielpbarron	I used to have some pretty choice names but I let them expire	[19:32]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[19:33]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[20:28]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[20:28]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[20:28]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[20:28]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[20:28]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron:in all trimesters? << yea.	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves: it'd be cool to see namecoin get better play << yea	[20:30]
ThickAsThieves	i just realized the client also allows for easy NS entry and stuff	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	i don't recall what the major drawback was	[20:32]
ThickAsThieves	probly that it doesnt 'just work'	[20:32]
danielpbarron	nice; what's the punishment?	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	jail ? i dunno.	[20:33]
ThickAsThieves	need to get chrome or opera or tor to support .bit	[20:33]
danielpbarron	no death penalty? :/	[20:33]
asciilifeform	birth penalty.	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	decimation: and rolling dice would take days << dice is iirc just about 6/8 of a byte per dice per throw.	[20:34]
FabianB	$mpexstatus	[20:34]
empyex	FabianB: Proxies: http://mpex.coinbr.com/ http://mpex.co/ MPEx-Status: Error reaching trade engine (change: $proxies )	[20:34]
assbot	401 Authorization Required	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	;;calc 24 * 3600 / 3 * 6/8	[20:34]
gribble	21600	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	FabianB nop, not yet.	[20:34]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron asciilifeform has it i guess.	[20:35]
ThickAsThieves	"The North American Bitcoin Conference Welcomes Bitcoin Novices"	[20:35]
ThickAsThieves	to speak	[20:35]
ThickAsThieves	hehe	[20:35]
FabianB	ic, trying to break the record ;)	[20:35]
ThickAsThieves	U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew called for a crackdown on tax inversions, saying the Obama administration needs to step efforts to limit companies reincorporating overseas for tax purposes.	[20:36]
ThickAsThieves	“We should have some economic patriotism here,” Mr. Lew said	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	benkay: ;;later tell mircea_popescu benkay eh what, you can tell. // this is to imply that actually discerning females on internet is hard? << yea.	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	FabianB not trying, but looks like it'll succeed ;/	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves ahahaha seriously ? economic patriotism ?	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	us, still copying the french, centuries later.	[20:37]
mircea_popescu	dub: hardly surprising now its full of spurious 'is on irc' entries << spurious on what grounds ?	[20:38]
ThickAsThieves	maybe if US closes eyes tight enough the rest of the world economy will go away	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	what's fucking spurious are all the idiots rating on the basis of a 20 bux moneypack	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	fortunately, they're well isolated from the wot that actually matters.	[20:39]
asciilifeform	dice is iirc just about 6/8 of a byte per dice per throw << not quite. log2(6) is ~2.6 - bits, that is.	[20:40]
asciilifeform	that's for a traditional die, of course.	[20:40]
mircea_popescu	ah rught.	[20:41]
mircea_popescu	but even so, 10 bits a throw, a 4k rsa key needs what, 7-800 ?	[20:41]
*	asciilifeform does not recommend dice for key gen	[20:42]
mircea_popescu	benkay: assbot's an interesting focal point for the WoT << didja graph it ?	[20:42]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and why is that ?	[20:42]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: too much like work.	[20:42]
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mircea_popescu	this is like the silent/loud computer system	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	some people like to work.	[20:43]
asciilifeform	plus, actual physical dice aren't entirely 'fair.'	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	this is why some prefer blowjobs while others don't.	[20:43]
asciilifeform	like the 'eudaemons' and their roulette wheels.	[20:43]
asciilifeform	;;google eudaemons roulette	[20:44]
gribble	Eudaemons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; layout: ; The Eudaemons' shoe computer:	[20:44]
mike_c	need zocchi dice	[20:44]
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mircea_popescu	entropy and bias are not exactly orthogonal concerns, but they're still at an angle here	[20:47]
asciilifeform	incidentally, here's a question. is mechanical wear on dice a positive feedback loop - or not ?	[20:48]
asciilifeform	and does this vary between the extant polyhedra	[20:48]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you know the story of the largest crystall ball in the world ?	[20:49]
penguirker	New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/why-progress-is-a-self-limiting-disease/	[20:49]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-07-2014#754108 << that one ?	[20:49]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets log	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	yes that one.	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	thing was made for cixi, whom i've referenced before. the process was, tumble the thing in water + garnet dust	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	for like a decade.	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	now, is this proof that the process is broadly non-positive-feedback ?	[20:50]
asciilifeform	aha, standard lens grind	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	yea. always yields a sphere.	[20:50]
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asciilifeform	always yields a sphere << but is the progression from whatever-hedron to sphere monotonic ?	[20:53]
*	assbot gives voice to bitstein	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	assbot: ING: Future Bitcoin Protocol Should Include Central Bank Functions << yeah, it totally should. I'm fucking sick of having to bitchslap people like ing from the shadows.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	gimme a protocol-based steel club ty.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it can't possibly be monotonic	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	if nothing else then because of quantum determinism.	[20:55]
asciilifeform	right	[20:55]
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asciilifeform	http://physics.ucsc.edu/people/eudaemons/layout.html << for anyone unfamiliar with it	[20:57]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c: i don't know. I guess I didn't feel like it fit the rest of his portfolio. << iirc he ended up with it as part of some other acquisition	[20:58]
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asciilifeform	(note that Shannon and Thorp, who used an analogue circuit, achieved the same result in months that the 'eudaemons' took years.)	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	fluffypony: can't we have assbot ban people that do that for an hour? << this actually is a good idea. kakobrekla could assbot put a ban on anyone it sees part/joining 12 times within an hour, with a ban message that "please get in touch once connection is fixed, ty"	[21:01]
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fluffypony	yeah, I don't want to hide joins/parts because sometimes interesting people join who don't have assbot !up access	[21:01]
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mircea_popescu	exactly.	[21:01]
punkman	and nobody in all these years has made a client with smart join/part hiding	[21:02]
ThickAsThieves	^	[21:02]
ThickAsThieves	if i ognore someone, it should ignore joins	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	yeah problerm is irc clients sorta went into freeze mode cca 2001	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	which is a GREAT thing. nobody's making new "fully featured" irc clients, which then don't work,	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	leading to demands to "bring irc protocol up to date"	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	like it's happened to the web.	[21:04]
ThickAsThieves	yet mirc still wants an update every month	[21:04]
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mircea_popescu	"As companies try to retain top employees and hit growth targets, some are ditching the annual salary review and doling out raises and bonuses several times a year."	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	fucking add taking over the nation.	[21:04]
ThickAsThieves	cuz paying them hald their raise sooner will make the job fun again	[21:05]
ThickAsThieves	half*	[21:05]
asciilifeform	http://www.edwardothorp.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/wearable_computer4.jpg	[21:05]
ThickAsThieves	then the joy of double the performance reviews	[21:05]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves ist's just another sympthom of inflation heating up i guess.	[21:06]
asciilifeform	('cheat-trons' were outlawed in usa - because they worked. but probably wouldn't work today - casinos monitor their own machines electronically and run bias stats)	[21:07]
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ThickAsThieves	As an interim measure in advance of issuing tactile-enhanced Federal Reserve notes, the BEP is providing currency readers, free of charge, to eligible blind and visually impaired individuals.	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	blind people gotta use a credit card whether they want to or not.	[21:10]
ThickAsThieves	does anyone work on accessibility in bitcoin?	[21:10]
punkman	ThickAsThieves: yeah right	[21:11]
danielpbarron	13:40:25 <+asciilifeform> dice is iirc just about 6/8 of a byte per dice per throw << not quite. log2(6) is ~2.6 - bits, that is. << assuming it isn't biased	[21:11]
asciilifeform	ThickAsThieves: braille terminal.	[21:11]
ThickAsThieves	http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-needs-accessible-visually-impaired/	[21:11]
assbot	Bitcoin 'Needs to be More Accessible for the Visually Impaired'	[21:11]
ThickAsThieves	"Most people want to make [bitcoin] accessible, they just haven’t considered it. That’s one of the problems around accessibility."	[21:11]
ThickAsThieves	heh	[21:11]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves is't on a computer. what else ?	[21:12]
ThickAsThieves	i'm mostly ignorant to the topic	[21:13]
ThickAsThieves	i guess OS handles most needs	[21:13]
mike_c	one rule is you don't need the mouse to do anything	[21:13]
mike_c	(gov't rule)	[21:14]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c another rule is that you can't send people mail as single-image pdfs.	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	anyway, bitcoin as made by saotshi is eminently blind-friendly. you can get everything as json from bitcoind and put it through your favorite reader.	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	the thing is that there's this large group of professional rent seekers who are trying to find a niche for themselves in bitcoin, not the normal way (buy some), nor the professional way (join bitcoin-assets) but the fiat way (politicing and derping around).	[21:18]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: not the normal way (buy some)... << this is because their actual goal is quite independent of bitcoin. rather, it is: to own people.	[21:19]
ThickAsThieves	;;google how much money is printed	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	bitcoin is uniquely unsuited for their methodology.	[21:20]
gribble	U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - Annual Production Figures: ; Facts About U.S. Money \| FactMonster.com: ; The Fed Is Not Printing Money, It's Doing Something Much Worse ...:	[21:20]
asciilifeform	steal a coin from man, you have: a coin. steal the man...	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	course, the only way people learn this is through trying.	[21:20]
asciilifeform	you get coin until he's dead. and then from his children, etc.	[21:20]
ThickAsThieves	the auto answer in google is different than the truth	[21:20]
ThickAsThieves	google says "The Bureau of Engraving and Printing produces 38 million notes a day with a face value of approximately $541 million. That doesn't mean there is $541 million more money circulating today than there was yesterday, though, because 95% of the notes printed each year are used to replace notes already in circulation."	[21:20]
ThickAsThieves	http://www.moneyfactory.gov/uscurrency/annualproductionfigures.html says 26 million notes a day with a face value of $1.3 billion. Over 90 percent of notes are used to replace notes already in, or taken out of circulation.	[21:21]
assbot	U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - Annual Production Figures	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves well google, like wikipedia, is only intended as a good enough first approximation.	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	much like you know, cliffnotes.	[21:22]
asciilifeform	https://www.thc.org/papers/ffp.html << in case anyone has not read this.	[21:23]
assbot	Fuzzy Fingerprints - Attacking Vulnerabilities in the Human Brain	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mircea_popescu.jpg (solution)	[21:26]
ThickAsThieves	so my rapper friend finally decides to buy bitcoin	[21:26]
asciilifeform	lol	[21:26]
ThickAsThieves	coinbase tells him his tx was too high risk	[21:26]
ThickAsThieves	http://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/977656-why-was-my-order-%22high-risk%22-and-cancelled-	[21:26]
assbot	Coinbase \| Why was my order "High Risk" a...	[21:26]
ThickAsThieves	"Unfortunately, sometimes it flags legitimate transactions too. "	[21:26]
ThickAsThieves	such scammers	[21:26]
ThickAsThieves	The algorithm is always improving but is not perfect.	[21:27]
ThickAsThieves	fukn christ	[21:27]
ThickAsThieves	lol	[21:27]
ThickAsThieves	maybe i should make a coinbase is racist reddit	[21:28]
mike_c	but this has some truth, no? they do have to prevent fraud, and no matter what they will accidentally flag legitimate txs.	[21:28]
mike_c	easy to scammer tag them, but how do you tell the difference between honest mistake and scam?	[21:29]
ThickAsThieves	so have a clearing process	[21:29]
ThickAsThieves	dnt let someone make an order they cant have	[21:29]
danielpbarron	it's no accident; the transaction was high risk (for coinbase)	[21:29]
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mike_c	they do have a clearing process.	[21:29]
mike_c	you can appeal a cancelled tx	[21:30]
danielpbarron	"whoops we're gonna lose money on this deal.. so we're canceling it"	[21:30]
ThickAsThieves	mike_c right, that's where it gets scammy	[21:30]
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ThickAsThieves	maybe dudes dont wanna be assed to fight for it	[21:30]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: flashlight article << a decade or so ago, i had a flashlight that... crashed! when destroyed, it revealed a microcontroller, with eeprom...	[21:31]
ThickAsThieves	why cant they allow a deposit to clear, then when they are happy, allow trading with that amount	[21:31]
mike_c	you mean, be an exchange. they aren't an exchange.	[21:31]
ThickAsThieves	meh	[21:32]
ThickAsThieves	anyway he's better off	[21:32]
ThickAsThieves	cheaper now	[21:32]
mike_c	because that solves all scam problems :) (see gox, bitstamp, every other exchange)	[21:32]
mike_c	so it's an anti-scam. if the price had gone up he could have complained and gotten the better price.	[21:33]
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mike_c	i'm not a big fanboy of coinbase, but i don't see how they could do it better.	[21:33]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 414 @ 0.00265304 = 1.0984 BTC [-] {11}	[21:34]
ThickAsThieves	maybe it's a new checking account for him or something	[21:34]
ThickAsThieves	i guess i can try being reasonable	[21:34]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lol the fuck was it doing.	[21:36]
danielpbarron	mike_c, I agree; my objection is going through traditional financial institutions to aquire Bitcoin; these channels can be frozen by governments	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	danielpbarron yah well you gotta get in somehow.	[21:37]
danielpbarron	i like face-to-face and cash-in-the-mail	[21:37]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it was a chicom die-on-pcb turd. no debug outputs; what was inside (other than clearly, a micro with state) only satan knows. so, i never learned.	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	the cash in mail doesn't scale so well.	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform prolly some sort of smart battery balancing	[21:37]
mike_c	i don't know any way that scales well these days. jborkl's post was unsettling.	[21:37]
danielpbarron	idk, I know how to ship a pallet; could be a pallet of linen	[21:38]
mike_c	i guess there never has been a scalable way.	[21:38]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c the main challenge to economy, since forever, is scalbility.	[21:39]
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mircea_popescu	which jborkl post you mean ?	[21:39]
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mircea_popescu	http://girls.twistys.com/preview/dailyupdates/2014/07/08/ryanryans-31773/images/full/16.jpg << from the biology class department.	[21:42]
mike_c	sorry, thought it was on bccoinnews. it was justusranvier. http://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2014/07/08/re-enhanced-due-diligence/	[21:45]
assbot	Coinbase Considered Harmful	[21:45]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: very much related to flashlight article: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/02/industrys-parting-gifts.html	[21:47]
assbot	ClubOrlov: Industry's Parting Gifts	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	at which juncture i wonder if justusranvier ever read http://trilema.com/2012/the-politics-of-bitcoin/	[21:47]
assbot	The politics of Bitcoin pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[21:47]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform indeed.	[21:51]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'why do half of them have to be “tactical” ?' << 'tactical', in american marketingspeak, originally meant 'can bolt to a rifle.' then it turned into 'can, if really needed, be used as a brass knuckle.' now it means something like 'looks vaguely like anodized metal.'	[21:51]
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mircea_popescu	"This, then, should be the new main thrust of industrial activity: to manufacture and distribute products with the understanding that this process will run out of resources and stop. These products must be designed to outlive the process by which they are made, by as long as possible." << i can't fucking imagine why this would have to appear as new.	[21:52]
mircea_popescu	far as i can discern this is it, the permanent mode of industry since forever, and how things sould work, and how things that work do work.	[21:52]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so if anodized metal is tactical, what's strategical ?	[21:52]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'strategic' - clearly, a gadget that wouldn't look out of place in intercontinental rocket's 'physics package.'	[21:53]
pankkake	I thought tactical was it can be used to hit things	[21:53]
pankkake	you know, there are tactical PENS	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	so i guess my tit tickling cock shall henceforth be tactical too	[21:54]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 500 @ 0.00261071 = 1.3054 BTC [-] {13}	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	i definitely can hit things with it	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so what, copper wire ?	[21:54]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 988 @ 0.00260005 = 2.5688 BTC [-] {7}	[21:55]
asciilifeform	as i understand, the term originally applied to brands of optical rifle sight designed to withstand the field (water, whacking over enemy's head, etc.) vs ones that only need to survive a leisurely duck hunt	[21:55]
mircea_popescu	tactical and strategic are properties of abstracts for crying out loud. you can't have a plapable tactical anything anymore than you can have a concrete idea.	[21:55]
asciilifeform	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Autonetics_D-17.JPG << 'strategic' computer.	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	"a flashlight concerning itself with implementation details, as opposed to broad theoretical considerations"	[21:56]
mircea_popescu	wtf is that.	[21:56]
asciilifeform	lol!	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform are those paralel ports gold or gilded ?	[21:58]
asciilifeform	'engineering gold'. like our pcb. you don't want pure gold in anything mechanical.	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	but if it's not solid (merely painted on) you get some interesting phenomena	[21:59]
mircea_popescu	of much less interest to someone gilding a pcb than to someone trying to make a parallel connection.	[21:59]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this is a concern if and only if the plug must cycle many times.	[21:59]
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mircea_popescu	but my uneducated guess looking at the arrangement is that it would ?	[22:00]
mircea_popescu	it's the debug port for all that memory no ?	[22:00]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SF1] 2000 @ 0.00029025 = 0.5805 BTC [+] {4}	[22:00]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: in such cases, one uses, e.g. Ir instead if Au	[22:00]
asciilifeform	*of	[22:00]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: russian rockets are kept plugged in permanently. no idea re: america.	[22:01]
mircea_popescu	then why bother gilding it, just make it solid.	[22:02]
asciilifeform	Au is SOP for mil-spec connectors.	[22:02]
asciilifeform	if anything, keeps it from corroding on the shelf.	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	(hello people reading the logs, and welcome to mp's personal engineer training hour, where he bothers people who should be doing usefulk things with the task of educating him for free. and now a massage from our sposor.)	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform when you said cycle i thought you meant, electrically. as in, hifreq.	[22:03]
asciilifeform	aha no. mechanical cycle.	[22:03]
mircea_popescu	because what i had in mind was that two diff metals make a circuit element.	[22:03]
mircea_popescu	"Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality." << hey check out orlov.	[22:04]
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mircea_popescu	excellent. guy really should stick with what he understands well (apparently, engineering and production problems) and forget stuff he doesn't get (like, politics)	[22:06]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: herr orlov was engineer of some description before 'bugged out'	[22:06]
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mircea_popescu	They work to boost revenue by offering an extended warranty or a service plan (made necessary by frequent breakdowns), charging for premium customer service (made necessary by their normal customer service, which consists of a robotic phone maze backed by a few trainees in India who just read aloud from Company B's public web site in a listless, stuttering monotone) and offering numerous enhancements and upgrades (made	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	necessary by annoyances or missing functions within the base product). They also build a profit center out of selling spare parts. They see to it that their product does not contain any commodity parts, and that no parts are interchangeable between model years, so that every replacement part has to be purchased through a dealer. Company B does quite well, becoming profitable, doubling in size several times, and gains	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	a commanding market share.	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	But then the troubles begin. First, given the short replacement cycle of its widget, it becomes harder and harder for Company B to contain costs while continuing to increase production. Costs of key inputs, such as certain metals, plastics, energy to run the plants, and shipping and distribution costs, all start going up, making their widgets more expensive to produce. At the same time, it becomes increasingly difficul	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	t to pass these higher costs on to the consumers. Concerted efforts at cost containment, championed by senior management, burn up more money than they find in savings. Second, turnover among the engineering staff starts to creep up, and after a while employee retention becomes a major problem. An effort is made to boost recruitment, but paradoxically this only increases the turnover rate, until the average tenure of an	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	engineer is shorter than the time it takes to learn the product.	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	the rest of that article hereby incorporated, it should be a matter of record this thing.	[22:09]
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mircea_popescu	"yes america, it won't work. herp."	[22:10]
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asciilifeform	inidentally, orlov swore off writing any further books re: collapse, declaring 'i've said what there is to be said.' making him, afaik, unique in that 'field.'	[22:10]
mircea_popescu	and right next to that,	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	'But that means that the project will have taken two and a half to three years,' said the Minister indignantly. 'And it was scheduled to take a YEAR!'	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	Bobynin exploded.	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	'What d'you mean - scheduled? What d'you think science is - a magic wand that you just have to wave to get what you want? Supposing the problem's been put in the wrong terms or new factors crop up? You and your schedule!	[22:11]
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asciilifeform	'my particular narrow focus in this post is in repurposing existing industrial capacity to mass-produce items that will outlive it and that will make post-industrial life better. The way it stands, we'll have lots of very well-built weapons, not so much ammo, lots of well-built but useless industrial equipment, and lots and lots of post-consumer trash. I am trying to find ways to change that balance.'	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	pretty much the bitcoin-bitcoin-assets-wot trifecta is the way, i would wager.	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	all we need is a few ideologically aware writers, and let's hope that they have the sense to give in to the groan-y siren song of a few cam whores	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	because the fate of the free world pretty much rests on it.	[22:13]
asciilifeform	when do we get a gurl reduced not only to camwh0ring, but to selling off her father's pick'n'placer. for coin.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	orlov specifically isn't here because when i pointed out to him he fucked up, his reaction wasn't the sane and natural "ow fuck me, i fucked up", but the much more common, and much more human "oh it's not really and i didn't really" and so on.	[22:14]
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mircea_popescu	lew rockwell similarly, too big for his breeches, by degrees of magnitude.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	strange how this works, but anyway.	[22:14]
asciilifeform	orlov, if i recall, answers 'bitcoin' with 'the net dies in $nibble years and where's your shortwave, huh. count me out.'	[22:15]
mircea_popescu	that wasn't the disagreement.	[22:16]
mircea_popescu	he had some bad data re romanian inflation, i pointed it out, herbi (who apparently knows him) conveyed it.	[22:16]
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mircea_popescu	somehow as people start to smarten up and realise how shitty us management is failing them, the idea doesn't form that they need better management,	[22:18]
*	asciilifeform wasn't awake for that one	[22:18]
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mircea_popescu	the idea forms that either a) they don't need management at all, which yields all the bizarre "decentralise" things trend, among others	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	or else that b) they're going to be their own management, which... myeah.	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2014/orlov-is-wrong-and-other-stories/ (link in 1st note)	[22:19]
assbot	Orlov is wrong, and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[22:19]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the ancient 'war' between 'engineer' and 'management' comes from the 'iconography' (believed by more or less all technical folks) of 'manager' as a kind of yacht-dwelling parasitic goblin on all that is good and bright.	[22:19]
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mircea_popescu	yeah well.	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	plenty of similarly socially awkward men believe women to be gold digging sluts etc etc.	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	the solution is to get a better wife, not to make womanhood die in a fire.	[22:21]
asciilifeform	it's more like the popular image of 'whore' - based on the specimens one can readily observe with naked eye in american city.	[22:21]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 104 @ 0.008 = 0.832 BTC [-] {2}	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	that's fair, in the sense it's fair to represent "engineer" on the basis of kids found loitering around the campus.	[22:22]
asciilifeform	just like, to a fellow without a telescope, a planet is merely a wandering star	[22:22]
asciilifeform	this is precisely how american 'manager' sees american 'engineer'	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	right.	[22:22]
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mircea_popescu	speaking of which, here you go nubbins, the dangers of trying to drive a sammich : http://www.bristol-storage.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/warehouse-destruction.gif	[22:29]
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mircea_popescu	"Company C is not really a company but a consortium organized by a group of activists who correctly perceive the great need for this widget and decide to tackle the issue head-on through tireless community organizing. A group of retired community college professors..."	[22:42]
mircea_popescu	ahahha o god.	[22:42]
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mircea_popescu	"In fact, I know of at least one company just like that. It was run by an engineer who had produced a huge success for his investors, only to see the company fall into the hands of Company B type management. So he created a new company. For years now he has sucked in more and more capital from investors who imagine he might reproduce his initial success. But it's clear (to me) that he has no intention of doing so, exce	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	pt perhaps by mistake. He wants to do interesting engineering and produce new, cool products at the expense of his investors.	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	I'm down with that."	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	this is going to be a major bitcoin problem, going forward.	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	i mean, all the noobs a la neobee's "ceo", alongside andreas antonopoulos were doing exactly this : implement their idea of fun at the expense of investors.	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	of course their idea of fun was more like mba than like engineer's, but that's squarely besides the point.	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	after the failure, the actual ceo disappeared, but antonopoulos reinvented himself as... more "professional".	[22:48]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 194 @ 0.00269999 = 0.5238 BTC [+] {2}	[22:49]
mircea_popescu	this because the market (well, the overcapitalised clueless section of it, anyway) erroneously identifies "professional" with "successful" and ultimately "good".	[22:49]
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bitcoinpete	found more f.derps!	[22:54]
bitcoinpete	http://gigaom.com/2014/07/16/elliptic-takes-2m-investment-to-help-firms-store-and-handle-bitcoin/	[22:54]
assbot	Elliptic takes $2M investment to help firms store and handle bitcoin — Tech News and Analysis	[22:54]
bitcoinpete	http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/07/16/tradeblock-raises-2-8-million-from-andreessen-horowitz-others/	[22:54]
assbot	TradeBlock Raises $2.8 Million From Andreessen Horowitz, Others - MoneyBeat - WSJ	[22:54]
bitcoinpete	elliptic and tradeblock	[22:54]
bitcoinpete	relentless, those veecees	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	good for 'em :D	[22:54]
bitcoinpete	"The firm, which did not disclose its valuation, is something like a Bloomberg for bitcoin, aggregating data and selling products for analyzing pricing trends and other research tools to its institutional client base. Some market data is free on TradeBlock’s website."	[22:55]
bitcoinpete	i bet you tb runs wp	[22:55]
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mircea_popescu	herp.	[22:56]
bitcoinpete	mircea_popescu: lol you're going to end up with more listings than the nasdaq ;)	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	obviously my servers can't handle it.	[22:56]
bitcoinpete	"Elliptic offers a secure, insured bitcoin service called Elliptic Vault for retailers, hedge funds, bitcoin exchanges and other companies that are trying to dabble in this new world of so-called cryptocurrencies."	[22:56]
bitcoinpete	f.derp broke mpex	[22:56]
bitcoinpete	just like they planned	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	well not just yet.	[22:57]
bitcoinpete	yet...	[22:57]
bitcoinpete	https://twitter.com/Jason_Pollock/status/488888685782237184 << kinda got a kick out of this imagining mccartney selling buffett btc for bitbet	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	lol	[23:00]
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mircea_popescu	buffett looks so lost...	[23:00]
danielpbarron	apparently yoko ono has more twitter followers than mccartney	[23:01]
mike_c	buffett is the king of omaha, he can't be lost.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	nobody can be lost quite like the king.	[23:02]
bitcoinpete	^can see that	[23:02]
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mircea_popescu	!up gabridome	[23:03]
-assbot-	You voiced gabridome for 30 minutes.	[23:03]
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mircea_popescu	!up gabriel_laddel	[23:03]
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-assbot-	You voiced gabriel_laddel for 30 minutes.	[23:03]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: nobody can be lost quite like the king >> http://oglaf.com/legacy	[23:04]
assbot	Legacy	[23:04]
gabriel_laddel	camgirl script:	[23:04]
gabriel_laddel	Mr./Ms. VIP,	[23:04]
gabriel_laddel	You are hereby invited to join #bitcoin-assets. The interests of current members include: bitcoin, auditable cryptographic equipment, increasing economic inequality worldwide, non-Von Neumann architectures, etcetera. In short, we're repurposing Earth's resources for the pursuit of our collective aesthetic and would appreciate your input.	[23:04]
gabriel_laddel	We hope to see you in-channel.	[23:04]
gabriel_laddel	The girl in question should start unbottoning her shirt at the second incidence of "bitcoin" taking it off ~2 sec after finished speaking. She should then proceed to give her show. Presumably she has some skill at this, and requires no futher direction. The video itself should be free of advertising, logos, watermarks etc. and be shot with a high quality camera.	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	it's a start.	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	but honestly, it lacks a hook. so there's a group somewhere interested in things. why do i gas ?	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lol yup.	[23:05]
gabriel_laddel	gas?	[23:05]
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mircea_popescu	give a shit	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	;;ud gas	[23:05]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gas \| gas. shit-flavored air. some of the most noxious is fried chicken related! that fuckin chicken gave me gas from hell! where's the air freshener? by da trick biatch ...	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	ha. i invented one!	[23:06]
gabriel_laddel	imo, if you really want them here, you may have to personalize the invitations.	[23:07]
gabriel_laddel	In the case of Nick Sabazo, one could sponsor a robotics contest for a highschool in his neighboorhood. Rules for this contest: http://web.archive.org/web/20060307220916/http://www.lucifer.com/~sean/N-FX/macro.html	[23:07]
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mircea_popescu	problem here is this : i don't want these people on any random terms. they have to come on our terms to be useful. that's a big part of it, smart people are great, educable smart people are actually useful.	[23:08]
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gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: Okay, so what are these terms exactly?	[23:08]
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mircea_popescu	otherwise you end up in corners like http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-07-2014#758259	[23:09]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets log	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel well, the problem is i have nfi.	[23:09]
gabriel_laddel	;;ud nfi	[23:09]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nfi \| Apple touch icon Download the Free App! 1. nfi. No Fucking Idea. The manager has NFI of the work that goes on around here... by KGB July 10, 2002. 2114 678.	[23:09]
mike_c	if they are not interested in bitcoin it is a non-starter (orlov).	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	but whore-out-of-the-blue seems reasonable as an approach, at least because people who manage to react well to women generally react well to new things.	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel no fucking idea.	[23:10]
mike_c	so the message should be "this is the smart bitcoin place"	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	mike_c you know, i was originally not interested in bitcoin.	[23:10]
mike_c	so you weren't ready for b-a	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	yes i was.	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	the way i became part of bitcoin in the first place was an hour or so on the ba of the time	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	bitcoin-otc, before fuckwit maxwell ruined it.	[23:11]
mike_c	but why were you there	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	lucky thing too, that.	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	mike_c i went there because commenters on my blog kept pestering me.	[23:11]
mike_c	because you were knew of, and were interested in learning more about bitcoin. orlov knows and is not interested.	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	i thought i knew, and i thought i wasn't interested.	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	what seduced me, actually, was gribble iding.	[23:12]
mike_c	well then why does orlov end up in that corner?	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	the idea immediately popped that people who are doing this as a matter of course can't be as stupid as i had thought.	[23:12]
asciilifeform	orlov, as i understand, has a very specific reason (i.e. falsifiable hypothesis) that leads to his disinterest.	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	possibly because he's older, and has less experience with whores	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	or the world generally.	[23:12]
pankkake	I had the same experience, I thought bitcoin was only acnee-ridden basement-living 13 year old gamers	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform to wit ?	[23:12]
asciilifeform	he is fairly certain that we have already been thrown from the skyscraper, and it is far too late to assemble this particular parachute.	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	;;google noob mp or how it all begun	[23:13]
gribble	Call of Duty: Ghosts has been one of the worst MP experiences I ...: ; "At civilization's end", an MP Megacampaign - Page 2 - Paradox ...:	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	jesus.	[23:13]
asciilifeform	(i admit that i actually store the parachute metaphor from him)	[23:13]
asciilifeform	*stole	[23:13]
pankkake	is this the "i'm a famous romanian blogger, sell me bitcoins?"	[23:13]
mike_c	ok, so there needs to be a hook. mp's was gribble. what would hook szabo?	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	mike_c http://trilema.com/2013/noob-mp-or-how-it-all-began/ if you didn't see it.	[23:13]
assbot	Noob MP, or how it all began pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	pankkake pretty much.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	i tend to bait a lot.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	mike_c good q.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	but see, im not so worried of that part. once he's here he'll be ok. getting him here tho.	[23:14]
mike_c	naked women are only good for getting someone to listen to the message, they aren't going to attract them on their own.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	in other words : we don't have a conversion problem before our eyes.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	jus' need the clicks.	[23:14]
rithm	naked clicks?	[23:15]
mike_c	right, we need ad copy. ad copy for mp: "we auth with pgp"	[23:15]
rithm	my eyes perked up	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	mike_c nope. ad copy for mp was, "just fucking check it out already omfg you're so wrong"	[23:15]
mike_c	that is the other method: repetition.	[23:16]
mike_c	that's easy. tweet @ szabo every day til he clicks.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	that sounds more like "get szabo to stop using twitter".	[23:16]
mike_c	you didn't stop using your blog.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	not that it'd be so hard to repurpose a botnet for utterly destroying twitter.	[23:16]
asciilifeform	http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2011/04/financial-totalitarianism.html << orlov is also convinced that totalitarian monster is still strong, will succeed in crushing anything it likes with remaining tentacles.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	but... whai.	[23:16]
assbot	ClubOrlov: Financial Totalitarianism	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	mike_c these weren't random people.	[23:17]
Adohgg	aegis agamemnon23 ak_ akstunt600 AndrewJackson Anduck Anon29486307 Apocalyptic arij_ artifexd asciilifeform assbot atcbot Azelphur	[23:17]
Adohgg	aegis agamemnon23 ak_ akstunt600 AndrewJackson Anduck Anon29486307 Apocalyptic arij_ artifexd asciilifeform assbot atcbot Azelphur	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform an opinion perforce held by any and all govt agents, along an unspecified number of delulded simplefolks.	[23:17]
gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: Who do you have in mind for this list other than NS and Taleb?	[23:17]
gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: would Theil be on it?	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and kinda why i have to be so uncharacteristically dismissive of teh various pretender governments.	[23:17]
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asciilifeform	like it or not, an apparent total lack of (publicly) expressed interest in bitcoin, is, like it or not, a rational strategic move for some people.	[23:17]
pankkake	one thing to know is that the 140 char limit is 140 unicode chars, not 140 bytes	[23:18]
mike_c	you are talking in circles :) "trusted recommendation" is not a video from camgirl.	[23:18]
mike_c	if we are going in cold, we need ad copy.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel afaik that guy's involved with some leeches "advisaing" him re bitcoin. sooner or later he'll find his way here on his own.	[23:18]
asciilifeform	privately - another matter. i'd be rather surprised if mr. o didn't hold some.	[23:18]
pankkake	I thought of repurposing twitter as a file hoster, but I'm not sure how much overhead this would be :p	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	mike_c no argument.	[23:18]
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gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: everyone that matters will be here eventually, the question is when.	[23:19]
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mircea_popescu	this is not as certain as it may seem.	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	for instance, newton died convinced there's a god.	[23:19]
mike_c	so back to ad copy. "#bitcoin-assets - the richest IRC channel on freenode"	[23:19]
asciilifeform	just like - for example - orlov will delete any comments inquiring about what kind of arms, if any, are to be found aboard his ship	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	mike_c trying to get the sluts or the engineers ?	[23:19]
mike_c	szabo invented bitcoin, right? we have all the bitcoin. that's got to be interesting.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	only works if he actually did.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	topic which prolly bristles him anwyay	[23:20]
asciilifeform	not so much because the inspectors don't already know - but because he recoils at the idea of being the center of 'that kind' of conversation.	[23:20]
asciilifeform	from a gut feeling that it can only lead to the wagen.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	goin further on asciilifeform's very soviet public/private approach, i wonder how many peeps are creaming their pants reading this convo over tor.	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	"said my name! said my name!!1"	[23:21]
asciilifeform	lol!	[23:21]
mike_c	is szabo in wot?	[23:21]
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mircea_popescu	re "that kind of conversation" : what point is a boat, if one floats it on a prison lake ?	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	mike_c not as such, afaik.	[23:22]
*	Users on #bitcoin-assets: daybyter chax_ KRS-1 +bitcoinpete ak_ akstunt600 +BingoBoingo blackwhite ericmuyser twizt CheckDavid Skirmant Guest87852 jonvaage +hanbot arij_ dignork kermit +mircea_popescu Sebastan OneFixt Tiraspol darlidada +gabriel_laddel Dimsler miaoux Adohgg stompysteve +mike_c lnostdal +princessnell Poffertje AndrewJackson Quanttek +punkman Anon29486307 CoalPowerGorilla +kyuupichan GAit nam-shub MCM-Mike jespern @assbot drawingthesun Cory	[23:22]
*	Users on #bitcoin-assets: trixisowned +penguirker +FabianB Lycerion Blazedout419 teward random_cat_ mius ll MiningBuddy +copumpkin justusranvier DoctorBTC Ginux cowloon Pucilowski Luke-Jr JoshG MarcSummers nanotube toddf Zoop_ phf +empyex +gabridome jdoubleu csshih +Rassah virtuals +fluffypony chetty aegis Graet +atcbot GSpotAssassin___ B0g4r7 warptangent dxrt Kushed donpillou the20year stormlight go1111111 cipi Corey midnightmagic joesmoe +mthreat xe4l Urushiol blg	[23:22]
*	Users on #bitcoin-assets: taub Keefe reeses agamemnon23 weex Pilate Anduck extra bettyclamp +kakobrekla diametric n6 +lampelina [\] rodgort Jezzz Belsage +Azelphur mariorz +danielpbarron Mats_cd03 +benkay [KS] +cazalla Guest84681______ bounce frb dooglus ystarnaud guntha Panadol_ tris SomeoneWeird julles PsychoticBoy Ukyo +gribble wao +lobbes Perlboy shandid +asciilifeform DefectiveNu optimator kanzure SuchWow los_pantalones +jurov jj88 deafboy khersonus	[23:22]
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mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu: Who do you have in mind for this list << to answer the q, actually it's pretty open. anyone anyone cares for.	[23:23]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: orlov's boat routinely floats about in the open ocean. but, as i understand, he still relies on an intact usa for supply line, and has a day job of some form there. but - unlike me - he also has russian passport. and occasionally makes use of it. so he's something rather like a free man.	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	just as long as he doesn't allow people to talk of guns in his presence ?	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	seems your avg ceo is better of, he just needs to prevent nigger and faggot discussions. guns still ok.	[23:25]
gabriel_laddel	So what we've got so far: There needs to be a list of people that we want here, and reasons why. We don't want them here on any terms and since they're VIP, we should have reasons for each of them. Why NS? Why Taleb specifically?	[23:25]
asciilifeform	the way i understand it, it isn't the gun per se - but the 'crowd'	[23:25]
gabriel_laddel	What roles do you have in mind for them?	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel well those two cause i love the shit they wrote and often quote it.	[23:25]
asciilifeform	traditionally, usg prioritizes self-styled 'armed rebel' circles for stoolie insertion and gasenwagen quota filling.	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel principally, they could tell me (and others) just how stupid we are. or at least attempt to.	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	you know, like in any intellectual field.	[23:26]
gabriel_laddel	So, peers.	[23:26]
gabriel_laddel	That seems to me to be "just any terms"	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	superficially.	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	generally people want to barge in bringing all the mud of their previous context.	[23:27]
mircea_popescu	their bones scatter the logfile.	[23:27]
mircea_popescu	where's fluffypony's excellent write-up on this subject	[23:27]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: orlov did recently have a harsh 'brush with reality.' he attended a 'collapse conference' run by his usual circle of people, and was heckled off the stage by 'feminist' types	[23:27]
*	fluffypony scrolls up	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel http://blog.spagni.net/posts/2014-04-22/ there, something like that.	[23:28]
assbot	What I enjoy about #bitcoin-assets	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lol what'd he do ?	[23:28]
fluffypony	I should retroactively fix those old URLs	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	fluffypony readin' my mind, didja	[23:28]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: described, briefly, here - http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2013/06/communities-that-abide-preamble.html	[23:29]
assbot	ClubOrlov: Communities that Abide (Preamble)	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	described by anyone other than the victim ?	[23:29]
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mircea_popescu	kinda curious what specifically went into the heckling	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	!up JAS2	[23:30]
-assbot-	You voiced JAS2 for 30 minutes.	[23:30]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there's a link to the opponent	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	aite.	[23:30]
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mike_c	ok - compile a list of 20 blog posts from blogs.b-a that are appropriate to target. tweet one a day @ target.	[23:32]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c think it's mature enough already ?	[23:33]
asciilifeform	http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/05/death-by-political-correctness.html << continued, to some extent, here	[23:33]
assbot	ClubOrlov: Death by Political Correctness	[23:33]
mike_c	if we can't come up with at least a dozen posts they might find interesting, then we've got other problems.	[23:33]
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asciilifeform	!up gabriel_laddel	[23:34]
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asciilifeform	!up gabridome	[23:34]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c such as that b-a blogs thing is only half a year old ?	[23:34]
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*	chax (~chax@162-222-103-181.webpass.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:34]
gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: You don't have to tell houseguests to flush the toilet. I see no reason you would have to tell SB, Taleb, etc. that they should use their brains. (Which is all I got from fluffypony's post)	[23:36]
mike_c	mircea_popescu: we can certainly backfill with trilema.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel you bring a very good objection actually.	[23:37]
*	ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[23:37]
*	akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	mike_c that's a point.	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	okay, who wants to make a 20 link care package for these ppls ?	[23:38]
gabriel_laddel	On it.	[23:38]
*	akstunt600 (~ak@65-78-62-173.c3-0.upd-ubr2.trpr-upd.pa.static.cable.rcn.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:38]
*	ak_ (~ak@65-78-62-173.c3-0.upd-ubr2.trpr-upd.pa.static.cable.rcn.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	!s gabriel_laddel	[23:38]
assbot	11 results for 'gabriel_laddel' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=gabriel_laddel	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	shit that search is a great thing.	[23:39]
*	chax has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	http://www.sexgangsters.com/ lmao get a load of this.	[23:43]
assbot	Sex Gangsters	[23:43]
*	SuchWow has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[23:44]
*	ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[23:45]
*	princessnell has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[23:47]
*	SuchWow (~SuchWow@unaffiliated/suchwow) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:49]

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