Forum logs for 14 Nov 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

mircea_popescu	!up reredacted	[00:00]
-assbot-	You voiced reredacted for 30 minutes.	[00:00]
*	assbot gives voice to reredacted	[00:00]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03 two lines up ?!	[00:00]
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saifedean	so the arab bitcoin space is growing up so fast... we are getting our own scamcoin	[00:00]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: picture a zoologist encountering an alien equivalent of the scorpion for the first time. what will his most important, though scientifically 'fuzziest' observations be? that the animal is - venomous.	[00:00]
mircea_popescu	ayup.	[00:00]
saifedean	this guy i know who works on atm's is launching his own cryptocurrency! And it's backed by real assets! REAL	[00:00]
mircea_popescu	saifedean more of that huh.	[00:01]
saifedean	http://www.ucicoin.com/faq	[00:01]
assbot	UCICOIN Crowdsale	[00:01]
saifedean	https://finance.yahoo.com/news/universal-crowd-funding-investments-l-225646854.html	[00:01]
assbot	Universal Crowd-Funding Investments S.A.L (U.C.I S.A.L) Recently Launched Its Crowd Sale and a Crypto Currency Backed by Real Assets and Now is Looking to Establish a Branch in Switzerland - Yahoo Finance	[00:01]
mircea_popescu	how do you say neobee in lebanese	[00:01]
saifedean	UCICOIN, i guess	[00:02]
mircea_popescu	saifedean so do your countrymen a favour, write a local language lenghty piece on exactly how neobee worked, what it was etc.	[00:03]
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chetty	!up saifedean	[00:07]
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saifedean	i'm not too bothered, i don't think he'll muster more than $100 in "investment"	[00:07]
mircea_popescu	mrjr: multisig is useful to protect access to privkey, by splitting the power of moving funds to 2+ entities. we pre-sign transactions, nlocked in time, and discard the private key. <<< and i know that you do because... you say so ?	[00:08]
mircea_popescu	saifedean that's not the point tho.	[00:08]
saifedean	he keeps trying to recruit me to work with him, and i keep trying my best to bluntly explain to him that his whole thing is going to a giant fat zero, and that the best outcome possible for him is to lose only all his money	[00:08]
mircea_popescu	mrjr: there's edge cases with malleability etc, but the benefits are that bitcoin operations can have their coins kept in a tx form, not as the information of the privkey << this is so braindamaged i can'teven be bothered.	[00:08]
mircea_popescu	motherfucker someone made a clear "here's the water, here's the flour" thing so it's simple and obvious, all sorts of derps come up with all sorts of "improvements" consisting of various doughs. "it stores better as canned frozen dough with our magical chemicals than as simple flour! and you can make things!"	[00:10]
mircea_popescu	this "innovation" is the fucking thing bitcoin was made to kill.	[00:10]
mircea_popescu	mrjr: thestringpuller: i'll work on getting my creds in order :) meni rosenfeld is one of our investors, and our cto Shaul Kfir was a reviewer for the sidechain paper. <<< myewah, the surprises keep right on coming	[00:11]
mircea_popescu	don't bother with the wot, i'll neg you anyway.	[00:11]
mircea_popescu	fucking ignorant derps. "here's a shitpie i made. my investors are ken lay and i'll be making a whipetatter"	[00:13]
chetty	this "innovation" is the fucking thing bitcoin was made to kill.//so they make a lot of messes, thats how kiddies learn and once in a while something useful actually gets invented	[00:14]
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mircea_popescu	fuck him. he has a known fraud as an "investor" ? he's fucked.	[00:14]
mircea_popescu	that's what due dilligence fucking means.	[00:14]
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BingoBoingo	!b 2	[00:18]
assbot	Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/141QFK2.txt )	[00:18]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^^^^^ < at this level it is difficult to distinguish simple idiocy riding on featuritis (because nobodies wish to get a place in the sun, and absent actual skils what better avenue trhan the pretense of adding value ?) and actual malice as oyu describe.	[00:18]
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mircea_popescu	in any case, nlocktime is ulterior on the flow of entalpy to that kafkian point where shit went weird, identified retrospectively.	[00:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: jurov: except that i can't use paper usd for anything << do what the soon-to-be-"protected" folk do, use a rechargeable prepaid card lol	[00:21]
BingoBoingo	The good reloadable prepaid cards even allow you to write "checks"	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: let's put it this way. a pile of usd without at least seven or eight decimally-significant zeros trailing after it, would make absolutely no difference to how i live. <<< this is like... the definition of poverty!	[00:22]
mircea_popescu	so basically, until he marries kim kardashian, stan will be pretty much going on with whatever it is he's doing today.	[00:23]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: gotta love these idiots. when'll somebody edit, rather than simply wiping, the case files ? << the one time you'll never hear about it, because how would you.	[00:24]
mircea_popescu	joecool: poweliks is a really interesting infection that often pulls in the cyperlocker ransomware, that hit the wild a couple months ago << look at that, someone took the trouble to make a trojan that works on all windowses to date ?	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	"Windows 2000, Windows 7, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Me, Windows NT, Windows Server 2003, Windows Server 2008, Windows Vista, Windows XP", we should probably hire this man.	[00:26]
mircea_popescu	rithm: it's cryptowall now and from what i can tell it's infected sites like mom & pop's ruinning old WP/drupal/some CMS <<< yeah, stuff the shitheads in question don't maintain, then i have to answer biweekly questions of "is qntra down". off with their heads i say!	[00:28]
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jurov	str = 'line1 line2 \ '	[00:33]
jurov	fp = open('out.txt', 'w')	[00:33]
jurov	fp.write(str)	[00:33]
jurov	fp.close()	[00:33]
jurov	guess what python does with this?	[00:33]
jurov	EATS THE TRAILING NEWLINE	[00:33]
jurov	SOMEONE PLS KILL ME	[00:33]
jurov	why must this always happen to me?	[00:34]
mircea_popescu	lol poor j	[00:34]
Azelphur	jurov: http://pastebin.com/z2BSyU1V nope	[00:35]
assbot	azelphur@darth-vader:~$ cat test.py str = 'line1 line2 \ ' fp = open('out.t - Pastebin.com	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	the plot, it thickens ?	[00:36]
jurov	Azelphur: hexdump out.txt?	[00:37]
jurov	here: 0000000 696c 656e 0a31 696c 656e 2032 0a5c	[00:37]
mircea_popescu	if this results in a patch to the kernel of w/e jurov's server is using...	[00:37]
Azelphur	0000000 696c 656e 0a31 696c 656e 2032 0a5c	[00:37]
Azelphur	000000e	[00:37]
Azelphur	jurov: nope xD	[00:37]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: use a rechargeable prepaid card << the day of 'thumbprint please sir' or at least 'show id' is not far.	[00:38]
asciilifeform	case files ... the one time you'll never hear about it << once it becomes a plausible thing to claim for a side in a case -> phase transition.	[00:38]
xanthyos	i don't understand free markets	[00:39]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the definition of poverty! << say moar	[00:39]
jurov	Azelphur: it exchanged the and	[00:39]
jurov	or my brain misfired	[00:40]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the argument i was trying to make is that, when grunting on a prison asteroid, a liter of rocket fuel makes very little difference. only L liters - sufficient for liftoff - will.	[00:40]
*	Azelphur shrugs	[00:40]
Azelphur	jurov: I wonder if it's a Windows line ending thing.	[00:40]
jurov	it's leeeeeenux here !!!1	[00:40]
Azelphur	that's just weird then	[00:40]
asciilifeform	jurov: in my very informal experiments, all extant browsers - without exception - mutilate line endings. so no point in 'paste box' apparatus, unless operated via something like mpex script.	[00:41]
asciilifeform	jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-10-2014#901052	[00:41]
assbot	Logged on 29-10-2014 01:36:19; asciilifeform: because plain ascii is like naked people	[00:41]
jurov	fp = open('out.txt', 'wb') did not help	[00:41]
jurov	but i am not putting the code in browser	[00:41]
jurov	oh you mean the paste box	[00:41]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: someone took the trouble to make a trojan that works on all windowses to date ? << this is very easy given a purely-userland turd.	[00:42]
asciilifeform	(which the turd in question was. in fact, quite likely it is even mostly posix-compliant.)	[00:42]
jurov	this looks like a trojan in python..using \ to trigger	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu: the definition of poverty! << say moar <<< sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.	[00:43]
mircea_popescu	o look! there's a parade down my street	[00:45]
mircea_popescu	only the 5th this month.	[00:45]
jurov	damn hexdump switched the endianness, file is actually correct	[00:46]
mircea_popescu	here: 0000000 696c 656e 0a31 696c 656e 2032 0a5c << seems correct endian ?	[00:47]
jurov	do hexdump -C	[00:47]
jurov	then it ends in 5c 0a as it should	[00:47]
jurov	but when you open out.txt in less or vim it pretends there is no newline in the end	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	00000000 6c 69 6e 65 31 5c 6e 6c 69 6e 65 32 20 0a	[00:49]
mircea_popescu	o.o	[00:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11600 @ 0.00045279 = 5.2524 BTC [-] {3}	[00:50]
jurov	there are total 4 backslashes in 'line1 line2 \ ' , maybe irc ate them?	[00:50]
mircea_popescu	but anyway.	[00:50]
mircea_popescu	!up JuliaTourianski	[00:52]
-assbot-	You voiced JuliaTourianski without time-limit.	[00:52]
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mircea_popescu	how's biz ?	[00:52]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: neh, i actually was hoping to hear moar.	[00:55]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: but i can't dispute the poverty bit.	[00:55]
*	asciilifeform ragged dervish.	[00:55]
mircea_popescu	you gotta understand for most people $100 in disposable income would actually make a significant difference.	[00:56]
asciilifeform	gotta be shitting me	[00:56]
mircea_popescu	this is definitely most of africa, but i suspect most of the us by now, too.	[00:56]
asciilifeform	aha africa.	[00:56]
mircea_popescu	i am not shitting you.	[00:56]
mircea_popescu	i have yet to meet a female argentinian that's both a) fuckable and b) owner in her own right of $100 worth of monthly income free and clear of any burden.	[00:57]
asciilifeform	where i live, that buys slightly less than two full 'standard' tanks of petrol.	[00:57]
mircea_popescu	indeed.	[00:57]
asciilifeform	that is, a week of my commute, not counting toll gates or machine wear.	[00:57]
mircea_popescu	it buys even less than a lolipop on a comet, so what of it ?	[00:57]
mircea_popescu	don't try to live on comets.	[00:57]
asciilifeform	l0l.	[00:57]
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BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: In this part of USia, $100 could buy 2 tanks with $20 left over	[00:58]
mircea_popescu	in romania it's just about ONE tank.	[00:58]
mircea_popescu	little over i guess.	[00:59]
*	asciilifeform picked a uniquely bad example, and realized	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	blowjobs better example.	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	$15 going rate here.	[00:59]
mircea_popescu	http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/kimkgif.gif << next we're gonna learn kim came to the us on a hb1 visa.	[01:01]
*	asciilifeform not an expert on the economics of this, but wonders how the cost relates to the 'unit cost' - that is, what it costs to house and feed a typical vendor.	[01:01]
JuliaTourianski	so change direction from blowjobs, I wanted to ask your thought on this "freedom" we're all obsessed with. i like this critique: "To coerce a man is to deprive him of freedom - freedom from what? Almost every moralist in human history has praised freedom. Like happiness and goodness, like nature and reality, it is a term whose meaning is so porous that there is little interpretation that it seems able to resist"	[01:01]
JuliaTourianski	the entire thing feels like a feel-good distraction from actual attainable action.	[01:02]
asciilifeform	which 'thing' ?	[01:02]
JuliaTourianski	the goal of freedom	[01:03]
asciilifeform	!s freedom	[01:03]
assbot	296 results for 'freedom' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=freedom	[01:03]
mircea_popescu	JuliaTourianski let's take an oblique tack. forget coercing a man. what is coercing a woman ?	[01:03]
asciilifeform	not much of obsession around here.	[01:03]
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JuliaTourianski	excatly. which is why i bother ask it here	[01:03]
mircea_popescu	well so answer lol	[01:03]
JuliaTourianski	don't be fecisious	[01:04]
*	asciilifeform screams, runs away	[01:04]
mircea_popescu	whadda ya mean ?	[01:05]
JuliaTourianski	"The doctrine that maintains that what I cannot have I must teach myself not to desire, that a desire eliminated, or successfully resisted, is as good as a desire satisfied, is a sublime, but, it seems to me, unmistakable, form of the doctrine of sour grapes: what I cannot be sure of, I cannot truly want. This makes it clear why the definition of negative liberty as the ability to do what one wishes - which is, in e	[01:05]
JuliaTourianski	will not do. If I find that I am able to do little or nothing of what I wish, I need only contract or extinguish my wishes, and I am made free. If the tyrant (or 'hidden persuader') manages to condition his subjects (or customers) into losing their original wishes and embracing ('internalising')	[01:05]
asciilifeform	facetious?	[01:05]
JuliaTourianski	the form of life he has invented for them, he will, on this definition, have succeeded in liberating them. He will, no doubt, have made them feel free - as Epictetus feels freer than his master (and the proverbial good man is said to feel happy on the rack). But what he has created is the very antithesis of political freedom	[01:05]
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mircea_popescu	mebbe use a pastebin next time.	[01:05]
JuliaTourianski	meh i dunno. i'm trying to gage some thought that will surprise me maybe	[01:06]
JuliaTourianski	high hopes for mircea	[01:07]
asciilifeform	JuliaTourianski: try this on for size:	[01:07]
mircea_popescu	well so far we're at the point where we try to find out what you mean by words.	[01:07]
asciilifeform	!s sleep ad libitum	[01:07]
assbot	3 results for 'sleep ad libitum' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=sleep+ad+libitum	[01:07]
JuliaTourianski	ahaha	[01:07]
*	BingoBoingo finds it more useful to consider freedom a conditional	[01:08]
JuliaTourianski	alright I'll be super direct: is freedom possible? and if so, what is it?	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	JuliaTourianski for "it" to "be" something you're making some presumptions. is the color pink possible ? if so, what is it ?	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	if you define it as em with wavelength so and so, then yes.	[01:08]
mircea_popescu	otherwise... depends, pls to explain what you mean.	[01:09]
JuliaTourianski	actually i am not making presumptions at all. I am admitting to be color blind here	[01:09]
*	BingoBoingo also thinks the F-word is too tainted by abuse to be useful on its own.	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	JuliaTourianski lol you ever read how sussman was englightened ?	[01:09]
JuliaTourianski	no	[01:09]
mircea_popescu	In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	"What are you doing?", asked Minsky.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	"I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	"Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	"I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	Minsky then shut his eyes.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	"Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher.	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	"So that the room will be empty."	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.	[01:10]
asciilifeform	inevitably modern discussions of 'freedom' reveal themselves as having the purpose of convincing a chump that the entire concept, but specifically his wishes to not be a zoo animal, is delusional and he 'is bad and should feel bad'	[01:10]
BingoBoingo	http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html	[01:10]
assbot	Some AI Koans	[01:10]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo by exception from the general rule, i actually wanted this one in teh record.	[01:10]
asciilifeform	this must be at least the 7th time sussman and his neural net pop up here.	[01:11]
BingoBoingo	Sure, figured I'd like the source for the sake of the rest of the stories	[01:11]
mircea_popescu	im a sucker for it, what can i say.	[01:11]
BingoBoingo	!s sussman	[01:11]
assbot	5 results for 'sussman' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=sussman	[01:11]
asciilifeform	!s minsky	[01:11]
assbot	0 results for 'minsky' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=minsky	[01:11]
mircea_popescu	!s minski	[01:11]
assbot	0 results for 'minski' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=minski	[01:11]
mircea_popescu	a well.	[01:11]
asciilifeform	eh.	[01:11]
JuliaTourianski	asciilifeform now that's presumptuous...even though I agree	[01:11]
JuliaTourianski	better questions	[01:12]
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JuliaTourianski	is the discussion of freedom even important or relevant anymore	[01:12]
mircea_popescu	no discussion is either important or ever relevant if the discussers don't know what they mean by words.	[01:12]
asciilifeform	very important and relevant - to the zookeper - he is quite interested in making sure that it stays as it traditionally tends to be, useless and irrelevant.	[01:13]
JuliaTourianski	what do i need to clairfy for you mircea	[01:13]
mircea_popescu	you can start with coercion.,	[01:13]
JuliaTourianski	I quoted something, so I'd have to ask mr. berlin what he means	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	well yes, i guess you should. much like we can't use unsigned patches for any reason, you can't use undefined jumbles for any thinking.	[01:14]
mircea_popescu	generally writers do readers the courtesy of defining stuff tho.	[01:15]
JuliaTourianski	i think he means interference from governing bodies	[01:15]
asciilifeform	then goes the other question, is 'king hunger' a governing body?	[01:15]
JuliaTourianski	"One is that all coercion is, in so far as it frustrates human desires, bad as such, although it may have to be applied to prevent other, greater evils; while non-interference, which is the opposite of coercion, is good as such, although it is not the only good."	[01:15]
mircea_popescu	so how would education work in this paradigm ?	[01:15]
JuliaTourianski	+asciilifeform yeah, i've been thinking about that.	[01:16]
asciilifeform	http://work-way.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/59532394.jpg	[01:16]
asciilifeform	^ 'king hunger'	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	because that happens to be both the source and the point of coercion in practice.	[01:16]
asciilifeform	see also king gravity, king thermodynamics, etc.	[01:16]
asciilifeform	(king hunger is actually just an affiliate duke under king thermo)	[01:16]
JuliaTourianski	Dostoyevsky said: "boots are superior to Pushkin" so what is freedom? freedom to starve of freeze in the cold? or freedom to be warm and fed under rule	[01:16]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it's come full circle, by now the unruly stupid children of yesteryear are forming pseudophylosophyc systems to justify their sillyness.	[01:17]
JuliaTourianski	and*	[01:17]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'В мире есть царь: этот царь беспощаден, Голод названье ему.' ( http://www.stihi-rus.ru/1/Nekrasov/30.htm )	[01:17]
JuliaTourianski	both positive and negative liberty is used very well by every side of power	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	JuliaTourianski let's look through all this by using a model of yourself as a little girl.	[01:18]
mircea_popescu	you are a little girl growing up in the house of your parents, which is all nice and good.	[01:19]
JuliaTourianski	pleasant thoughts from you as always	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	you get to be 16. at this point you figure - miuch like that chick in wuthering heights or whichever had the 7 sisters - you have about as much need of fucking as you have of someone sticking his finger up your nose.	[01:19]
mircea_popescu	this notwithstanding, a strange man comes, takes you away, puts you in a new place and makes you pregnant.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	this is obviously coercitive, on the part of said man.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	nevertheless, you get over it, and the wound heals like any wound, and now you have children, which of course you love, being so wired to do.	[01:20]
mircea_popescu	but now they are 16, and a man comes and takes them to war, where they get shot and die.	[01:21]
mircea_popescu	this, obviously, also coercitive.	[01:21]
mircea_popescu	the alternative being, of course, that you could be an old maid, in which case the same children would be... just as equally dead.	[01:21]
mircea_popescu	or else, that you'd have unbearable brats the sort that grow up to be isaiah berlin and fill the world with the idiocy of their parareasonings as to why nobody ever needs to grow the fuck up already.	[01:22]
mircea_popescu	then the whole ecosystem collapses under their weight ; rocks fall, everyone dies ; the mongols come to rape the lot.	[01:22]
mircea_popescu	coercion, wtf do you mean coercion ? you're sitting on a chair right now, your but's coerced.	[01:22]
JuliaTourianski	hahah	[01:23]
JuliaTourianski	i think him and you agree on more than you think	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	of course we do.	[01:23]
JuliaTourianski	"If I save myself from an adversary by retreating indoors and locking every entrance and exit, I may remain freer than if I had been captured by him, but am I freer than if I had defeated or captured him? If I go too far, contract myself into too small a space, I shall suffocate and die. The logical culmination of the process of destroying everything through which I can possibly be wounded is suicide. While I exist	[01:23]
-berndj-	hey +v me quickly please, i have something semi-relevant for julia	[01:23]
mircea_popescu	!up berndj	[01:24]
-assbot-	You voiced berndj for 30 minutes.	[01:24]
*	assbot gives voice to berndj	[01:24]
JuliaTourianski	I can never be wholly secure. Total liberation in this sense (as Schopenhauer correctly perceived) is conferred only by death.28	[01:24]
berndj	JuliaTourianski, do you know the book _48 laws of power_? your "sour grapes" comment reminded me, there's rule 36: Disdain things you cannot have: ignoring them is the best revenge	[01:25]
JuliaTourianski	berndj i have lately...been a master of this.	[01:25]
JuliaTourianski	i do know the book but i have yet to tread it	[01:25]
JuliaTourianski	read*	[01:25]
undata	I'm skeptical anyone who ever read a book called "48 Laws of Power" ever had any	[01:26]
JuliaTourianski	worth it?	[01:26]
berndj	totally!	[01:26]
undata	or if they did, it must've been the only thing on the toilet	[01:26]
berndj	lol undata many of its pages were indeed read on the toilet	[01:26]
JuliaTourianski	the who question on non-agression is interesting too	[01:26]
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JuliaTourianski	i said it was flawed in a mailing list and i got some very insulted ancaps on my case	[01:27]
mircea_popescu	!up Mobuis	[01:27]
-assbot-	You voiced Mobuis for 30 minutes.	[01:27]
*	assbot gives voice to Mobuis	[01:27]
Mobuis	Thank you.	[01:28]
JuliaTourianski	Woman and man at a bar. They may or may not be flirting...each may interpret their interaction differently. Man grabs woman's ass. Woman punches man in face. Has there been a violation of the non-aggression principle? What if the woman liked it or wanted it, but felt embarrassed of her urges due to the public setting and retaliated in a way she felt redeemable. Or maybe she was abused as a child and the act de	[01:28]
JuliaTourianski	We can't know. So who aggressed against who? Should the man have asked to grab her ass first...well, that would contradict the entire concept of the mutual thrill of ass grabbing.	[01:28]
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mircea_popescu	o wait, english speakers actually know that exists ?	[01:29]
mircea_popescu	jesus it must suck.	[01:29]
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danielpbarron	try asking an "ancap" if you have the right to beat your own kids/wives/slaves on your own property	[01:35]
mircea_popescu	what's the location got to do with it !?	[01:35]
jurov	http://bugs.python.org/issue7143 at last!	[01:36]
assbot	Issue 7143: get_payload(decode=True) eats last newline in base64 encoded payload - Python tracker	[01:36]
JuliaTourianski	mircea_popescu did you run a porn site	[01:37]
berndj	mircea_popescu, presumably on a road, the owner of the road might require you to sign a contract that forbids beating your kids	[01:37]
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mircea_popescu	jurov ahahaha o god help us. that is like a canonical example of evil.	[01:37]
mircea_popescu	JuliaTourianski dja mea nthe 4chan clone ?	[01:38]
mircea_popescu	berndj can he now ?	[01:38]
berndj	can who now what?	[01:39]
mircea_popescu	can some dude owning a road require me anything.	[01:39]
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JuliaTourianski	danielpbarron most would sa no because NAP	[01:41]
mircea_popescu	;;ud nap	[01:41]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nap \| nap. 3 hours of sleep or less. Zerostar took a nap from 2pm to 5pm. by GheTTo January 08, ... My roommate just left for class, so I think I'm going to take a nap.	[01:41]
JuliaTourianski	mircea_popescu so did u	[01:42]
mircea_popescu	so what's this nap ?	[01:42]
RagnarDanneskjol	she asks about pron likely b/c forum muppets derping about your random erotic art posts on 'lema	[01:42]
JuliaTourianski	what kind of porn was it	[01:43]
BingoBoingo	Oh no, RagnarDanneskjol MP once ran a chan site. Full of people posting n00dz	[01:43]
JuliaTourianski	i may break my abstinence tonight if this website still exists	[01:43]
RagnarDanneskjol	ah	[01:44]
BingoBoingo	Site was polimedia.us/dtng	[01:44]
undata	mircea_popescu: a religious notion that anarchists suppose would bring about peace on earth and good will towards men	[01:44]
undata	the non-aggression principle	[01:44]
mircea_popescu	oh, that.	[01:44]
mircea_popescu	eh, bs.	[01:44]
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mircea_popescu	what, the "i have no balls" tag was taken ?	[01:45]
BingoBoingo	Yeah, the *archists would reintroduce aggression	[01:45]
BingoBoingo	There's always going to be a *archy	[01:46]
undata	BingoBoingo: but... read this blog post about how mean it is	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	JuliaTourianski which webiste ? dtng was basically... a chan. you know, random people posting whatever.	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	if i recall there was a lengthy thread of naked women in star wars paraphenalia	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	weird shit like that.	[01:46]
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BingoBoingo	undata: Of course *archy is mean. Just avoid the robokleptarchy	[01:47]
JuliaTourianski	dissapointing	[01:47]
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undata	http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mp6C4g23uYo/hqdefault.jpg	[01:52]
undata	LOOOL	[01:52]
RagnarDanneskjol	did we just miss a golden opportunity to have miss T. break this abstinence streak?	[01:52]
undata	https://www.google.com/search?q=julia+tourianski	[01:52]
assbot	julia tourianski - Google Search	[01:52]
*	assbot removes voice from berndj	[01:54]
*	BingoBoingo wonders what shitgnome introduced "non-aggression" into ananrchy. With the persistence of the *archy it would seem that aggression would be necessary in one's own defense.	[01:54]
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mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo i;ll tell you how that went. dudes for some reason perceive the need to "sell" it, and since it's obvious that you can't sell something to someone that the someone;d perceive as a "worse" alternative, then necessarily it must be made so that anarchy is not more painful to the average derp than you know, the 1980s in the us.	[01:58]
mircea_popescu	notwithstanding that the only possible point to even having anarchy in the first place is to render the sorts of idiots that'd fall for it.	[01:58]
undata	"Those guys over there are organizing! Someone should stop them! But how?"	[01:59]
BingoBoingo	To think that 100 years ago anarchist aggression started a conflict among the euroarchists	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	twice.	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	before being coopted by the socialists, the russian revolution was pure anarchism.	[02:00]
mircea_popescu	for that matter, the us was quite a different beast before being coopted by the socialists to.	[02:00]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: mahno's or more generally?	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	it's funny, this particular bromilliad, sometimes catches root on a tree, then proceds to derp all about how you know, the purpose of the tree is it!	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform more generally.	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	even stalin was (and roughly stayed) an anarchist.	[02:01]
mircea_popescu	the purpose of trees, to hear the bromeliaceae tell it, is to one day support one! and in fact all life on earth evolves towards that peak of creation, a parasite plant of little notice.	[02:03]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00044509 = 18.538 BTC [-] {2}	[02:06]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform merely consider the fact that the politbureau did not customarily seek to include the general opinion of the populace. not exactly socialism, this, is it ?	[02:08]
mircea_popescu	the chinese pretend themselves communists, but really... the us is more advanced on the socialist path than they are.	[02:08]
asciilifeform	usa just solved the 'problem' of popular opinion in a rather different way.	[02:09]
joecool	distraction?	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform but at least the usian populace gets to pick which butt to be pictured bare.	[02:09]
mircea_popescu	the soviets had no equivalent input in the workings of pravda.	[02:09]
asciilifeform	really? i don't recall being asked - which butt.	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	you personally ? well no, that's not teh socialist way.	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	there's metrics, yo.	[02:10]
asciilifeform	aha.	[02:10]
chetty	but those are all made up	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	this entire sign things stuff we do is exactly antisocialist.	[02:10]
asciilifeform	in usa, they not only had better steel and semiconductors, back in the day, they also had better chumpatronics.	[02:10]
asciilifeform	which was the undoing.	[02:10]
asciilifeform	see also limonov's discussion re: 'hard' vs 'soft' totalitarianisms	[02:11]
joecool	even stalin was (and roughly stayed) an anarchist. < would you expound on this a bit? I have never seen that viewpoint expressed	[02:11]
asciilifeform	'hard' is when you end up needing to physically restrain people, actually shoot dissenters, etc.	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	joecool well, consider his early life. guy robbed banks and generally lived as an outlaw.	[02:12]
asciilifeform	'soft' - when the entire concept of meaningful resistance becomes a hard problem	[02:12]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00044868 = 7.1789 BTC [+]	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	joecool on what grounds would you identify pre-1930 stalin as a socialist ?	[02:12]
joecool	mircea_popescu: ah so personally he ran his life as such is what you mean, not his government so much?	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	wait a second. what part of the "you folks are like blind kittens" is socialist, iyo ?	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	"i know better than you lot, you lot are stupid, not least of all for being a lot in the first place".	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	does this sound a lot like socialism to you ?	[02:13]
joecool	mircea_popescu: not thinking it was socialism, I just didn't consider it anarchism	[02:13]
mircea_popescu	he ran his government exactly like you'd expect a lifetime anarchist war hero to run a government.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	broz tito did exactly the same thing.	[02:14]
asciilifeform	where are the mythical 'actual socialists' - and what is even the point of looking for them.	[02:14]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i linked a youtube of a pirvulescu attack on ceausescu.	[02:14]
undata	not to derail, but I have to paste this here: http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress	[02:15]
assbot	I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing \| The Verge	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	that was exactly "career socialist vs anarchist that overtook the party" moment.	[02:15]
undata	apparently that guy's shirt is why women don't "science"	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	undata not sure why anyone cares what Chris Plante & Arielle Duhaime-Ross have to say on any topic.	[02:15]
mircea_popescu	they're the reason nobody reads the verge.	[02:16]
undata	mircea_popescu: representative of opinions you hear in Portland quite often	[02:16]
mircea_popescu	except i don't. :)	[02:16]
undata	ha, right.	[02:16]
mircea_popescu	* at that moment, undata was enlightened * lol	[02:17]
mircea_popescu	anyway, to be noted that the european space agency did it. the us relevancy, like the mass of the comet, withering away by the minute.	[02:17]
*	mircea_popescu recalls the eu space agency early on, such a risible attempt.	[02:17]
mircea_popescu	you know, back when the euro "didn't have a chance", and like the canadian dollar, traded under the usd.	[02:18]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform here's one for ya : a google for McIlroy produces a solid pages of derpage about some random kid playing golf.	[02:25]
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asciilifeform	lol!	[02:26]
mircea_popescu	i have a lot of sympathy for kids trying to piece together some shard of understanding out of isaiah berlin, rory mcilroy and ronald mcdonald.	[02:27]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[02:28]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/345DS4X.txt )	[02:28]
BingoBoingo	http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/beirut-cops-cant-tell-hipsters-from-jihadis.html	[02:28]
assbot	Beirut Cops Can’t Tell Hipsters From Jihadis -- NYMag	[02:28]
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mircea_popescu	moreso than for their parents, trying to do the same out of marx, ziggler, carnegey and whatever other fitness trainers and pop-philosophers the almanacs would print.	[02:29]
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mircea_popescu	http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/unix-nature.html << not bad, incidentally.	[02:31]
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gernika	cazalla might this be related enough to bitcoin to cover?: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-declares-new-currency-will-be-circulated-in-its-bid-to-establish-caliphate-across-syria-and-iraq-9859752.html	[02:32]
assbot	Isis declares new currency will be circulated in its bid to establish caliphate across Syria and Iraq - Middle East - World - The Independent	[02:32]
cazalla	gernika, are you trying to get me arrested for promoting ISIS?	[02:34]
gernika	No	[02:34]
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asciilifeform	nah, for promoting gold.	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	lol that bad is it ?	[02:34]
cazalla	mircea_popescu, they kicked down the door of one muslim family for having a plastic sword so yeah	[02:34]
mircea_popescu	nuts	[02:35]
BingoBoingo	Eh, I'll write an ISIS coin article then.	[02:35]
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cazalla	gernika, i can't say i'm that interested in promoting altcoins but thanks for the tip	[02:36]
gernika	cazalla are gold and silver altcoins?	[02:38]
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gernika	Just seems to run contrary to the usgovmedia claim that ISIS is using bitcoin.	[02:40]
cazalla	gernika, we have bitcoin so yeah, at least personally	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	they've not actually made that claim, have they ?	[02:40]
mircea_popescu	other than gossip	[02:40]
gernika	mircea_popescu you're right - the claim is that it could be used by them I suppose.	[02:41]
cazalla	some media claimed so but it was just an ISIS fansite requesting bitcoin donations to pay for hosting	[02:41]
mircea_popescu	clearly terrorist internet funbux then.	[02:41]
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asciilifeform	they'd need to find a way to replace ecdsa with an equivalent of caesar's cipher first.	[02:42]
asciilifeform	(who was it who had a piece on how supposed 'enemies of usa' are required, by the laws of god himself, to use idiotically childlike crypto? was it mircea_popescu ?)	[02:43]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/the-danger-of-homebrew-crypto/ that ?	[02:43]
assbot	The danger of homebrew crypto pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[02:43]
asciilifeform	aha.	[02:43]
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jurov	http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html finally something	[02:52]
asciilifeform	'signed by' ?	[02:52]
jurov	there will be sigs from other people	[02:52]
asciilifeform	i'd suggest showing original patch author's sig also	[02:52]
jurov	also, it will be hyperlinked to messages in archive	[02:53]
jurov	yes, that will be link from "submitted by"	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	o hey nice!	[02:53]
asciilifeform	(one could hypothetically have a patch 'submitted by' mr x but 'signed by' mr y	[02:53]
jurov	the original singature	[02:53]
asciilifeform	or does 'submitted by' always refer to original sig	[02:53]
jurov	mhm ok	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that anything needs a 1st signature to even be sumitted is not abad design decision	[02:53]
mircea_popescu	well yeah, obviously. right jurov ?	[02:53]
jurov	yes, without 1st sig it won't appear there	[02:54]
jurov	also, ascii as right pentester scattered multiple dots in the filename so it got shortened	[02:56]
asciilifeform	lol!	[02:56]
jurov	it's incredible how he happened to hit multiple bugs at once	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	lmao	[02:56]
thestringpuller	http://www.cnbc.com/id/102183717 << Hahaha	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	maybe he knew what he was doing ?	[02:56]
mircea_popescu	jurov incidentally, gimme the short version, how do i submit to this thing ?	[02:57]
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asciilifeform	jurov: i got yet another copy of 'patch' in email. i presume you are turning the knobs as we speak?	[02:58]
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jurov	http://ml.therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev "Submitting patches"	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	ty	[02:58]
jurov	can;'t get much shorter	[02:58]
asciilifeform	!up ml.therealbitcoin.org	[02:58]
asciilifeform	damn	[02:58]
asciilifeform	;;isup ml.therealbitcoin.org	[02:58]
gribble	ml.therealbitcoin.org is down	[02:58]
mircea_popescu	yeah did it just die ?	[02:58]
jurov	therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev	[02:59]
jurov	sry ml. is for internal use only	[02:59]
asciilifeform	someone (who read it!) try signing my patch ?	[02:59]
asciilifeform	see if displays.	[03:00]
mircea_popescu	jurov specifically, is there any way for me to submit signature comments ?	[03:00]
jurov	reply to the thread?	[03:00]
asciilifeform	jurov: how would he (or anyone else) submit a detached sig meant to go with a particular patch ?	[03:00]
asciilifeform	in such a way that it displays under 'signed by'	[03:01]
jurov	by using the file name	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	"Recommended process is to pipe the signed message text directly to mailx or similar client without ambitions." ahahaha gotta love jurov.	[03:01]
jurov	like	[03:01]
asciilifeform	jurov: wouldn't this result in duplicates ?	[03:01]
jurov	wget http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20141112/bitcoin-asciilifeform_a6ada6bb9cebb9540df1fda3465d942a4631d202.2-https_snipsnip.patch	[03:01]
mircea_popescu	jurov but suppose i wish to say "reviewed X part ; Y part outside of my comprehension". can not be done ?	[03:01]
*	asciilifeform does not ever want to read duplicates	[03:01]
jurov	gpg -b bitcoin-asciilifeform_a6ada6bb9cebb9540df1fda3465d942a4631d202.2-https_snipsnip.patch	[03:01]
jurov	it will make blablabla...hexporn.patch.sig	[03:02]
jurov	send this file under this name as attachment	[03:02]
mircea_popescu	so basically, the correct approach here would have been for ascii to make a patch for each individual diff ?	[03:02]
jurov	it pairs the sig to the patch by name	[03:02]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i have an idea here. if this actually plays out, you would say to me: 'i will not sign X. because i grok X.a but not X.b. please split into two, and i shall sign X.a, or go on to explain to me precisely how X.b works.'	[03:02]
jurov	you mean individual hunks?	[03:02]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform but what if you communicating with me is impractical ? because say, you're dead.	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	jurov yes.	[03:03]
asciilifeform	well, when i'm dead, someone else (e.g. you) can cut X into X.a and X.b	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	well no, because then all the history is lost.	[03:03]
jurov	mircea_popescu: if stan is dead you'll split it yourself and resend with your sigs	[03:03]
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asciilifeform	X.b will sit, as an orphan, inside a comment thread, until the fateful day that someone picks it up, and signs it, and convinces others to.	[03:03]
mircea_popescu	and what of the 500 orher dead people that signed his ?	[03:03]
asciilifeform	aha what jurov said	[03:04]
jurov	i dunno how it can be cryptographically linked	[03:04]
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asciilifeform	eventually all signatures belong to the dead.	[03:04]
mircea_popescu	right.	[03:04]
mircea_popescu	so for this reason, all patches must be mononuclear ?	[03:04]
asciilifeform	that was my original suggestion.	[03:05]
asciilifeform	that a patch, a particular one, is a particular identifiable 'thing.'	[03:05]
mircea_popescu	so what happened to the suggestion ?	[03:05]
asciilifeform	e.g., 'here we burn gavin's broadcaster out with hot iron.'	[03:05]
asciilifeform	'here we remove https.'	[03:05]
jurov	which suggestion?	[03:05]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform his.	[03:05]
mircea_popescu	oops. jurov asciilifeform's.	[03:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39845 @ 0.00045202 = 18.0107 BTC [+] {2}	[03:06]
asciilifeform	to be clear, my suggestion concerned how to write patches.	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	anyway, even if they are all mononuclear, there's still semantic value to be had. suppose i wish to say "have read and understood this to do what it says ; have not tested it in fact".	[03:06]
mircea_popescu	should this be verboten, and all or nothing commitment upon signer ?	[03:06]
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asciilifeform	this was actually a point i brought up when mircea_popescu said 'one day you shall earn bread by signing code' or something to that effect	[03:07]
jurov	for thi there's the mailman archive	[03:07]
asciilifeform	my question was, that day, 'sign under what'	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i know.	[03:07]
jurov	otherwise i hve no idea how to put such semantic metainfo in the db	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you do appreciate the following point : up until and in any case unless one actually had to put his own signature, these matters never have been seriously considered by asnyone.	[03:07]
mircea_popescu	so in that sense, great progress.	[03:08]
asciilifeform	these matters were considered by engineers since hammurabi.	[03:08]
jurov	maybe you want to rate the patch? lol	[03:08]
mircea_popescu	jurov im not even sure it should be there.	[03:08]
jurov	;;rate -1 sketchy	[03:08]
gribble	Error: 'sketchy' is not a valid integer.	[03:08]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i mean specifically about patches to foss.	[03:08]
asciilifeform	aha	[03:08]
mircea_popescu	or for any other system where stuff can be changed / "contributed" by "nobody". but anyway, we digress.	[03:09]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform do me the courtesy and resubmit as mono patches and then the new ones can win the longer sigchain race with the original one ?	[03:09]
asciilifeform	mono patches?	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	1 change per patch.	[03:10]
asciilifeform	1 change as in, 1 line?	[03:10]
jurov	well, the https one is pretty compact	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	shit the hard questions you ask.	[03:10]
*	asciilifeform is a little confused here	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	i dunno ;/	[03:10]
jurov	if it will be shorter, it could not compilke	[03:10]
mircea_popescu	what should "one" mean in this fortran ?	[03:10]
asciilifeform	when i originally suggested 'one change', it was a semantic thing	[03:10]
asciilifeform	as in, 'and here we remove the nuclear detonator'	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform myeah.	[03:11]
asciilifeform	rather than 'one line of code' (try reading the result!) or somesuch.	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	jurov seems the site needs the extension of a "patch notes" clickable field ?	[03:11]
asciilifeform	in that respect, all of the patches i (and the 2 other fellows) offered so far, are monolithic.	[03:11]
mircea_popescu	and similarly, signatures get a "sig notes" following them, like signed by 01ABFFC7(n) 02ABFFC7(n) etc	[03:11]
jurov	yes, it's in pipeline	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	seems to me this'd resolve all outstanding problems.	[03:12]
asciilifeform	so what will be the convention for submitting 'patch note with sig' ?	[03:12]
mircea_popescu	as to the meaning ?	[03:13]
jurov	put clearsigned note into email body	[03:13]
asciilifeform	also i don't remember if i reminded anyone of this, but unix 'patch' utility is rather braindead.	[03:13]
jurov	or first att	[03:13]
asciilifeform	in that, for example, all of the patches submitted so far will break if one is removed from the chain.	[03:13]
jurov	and detached sig as second att	[03:13]
asciilifeform	(line number idiocy)	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	jurov sample code for mailx in the help file would help a great deal.	[03:13]
mircea_popescu	i know this from the mpex faq days.	[03:14]
jurov	mircea_popescu: gpg --clearsign \| mailx btc-dev@therealbitcoin.org	[03:14]
jurov	this needs explicit mention?	[03:14]
mircea_popescu	jurov this handles the attachment scheme you wish to use ?	[03:14]
jurov	oh that, mailx does not handle attachments	[03:15]
asciilifeform	jurov: this is not a working example	[03:15]
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mircea_popescu	well if mailx doesn'tdo attachments then why do you suggest people use it to mail you attachments lol.	[03:15]
thestringpuller	;;ticker	[03:16]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 410.23, Best ask: 410.66, Bid-ask spread: 0.43000, Last trade: 410.2, 24 hour volume: 49225.83783296, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 419.932867651	[03:16]
jurov	i suggested it for text.. but yes it's dumb	[03:16]
jurov	apparently it actually does with uuencode..okay another todo	[03:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72350 @ 0.00045058 = 32.5995 BTC [-] {2}	[03:18]
mircea_popescu	anyway, i'd say this is progressing nicely.	[03:18]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22574 @ 0.0004444 = 10.0319 BTC [-]	[03:27]
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*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[03:32]
nubbins`	i must not derp. derping is the mind-killer.	[03:33]
nubbins`	derping is the little stupidity that leads to total insolvency	[03:33]
mircea_popescu	lol if this cult thing catches on we can even have derpfessions. "have you derped my son ?"	[03:33]
nubbins`	i will face my derp	[03:33]
nubbins`	i will permit it to pass over me and through me	[03:33]
mircea_popescu	there could be a new disease, the derpes...	[03:33]
asciilifeform	http://static.oper.ru/data/site/obama.png	[03:34]
nubbins`	HAHAHAHAHAHAHA	[03:34]
nubbins`	derpes simplex	[03:34]
nubbins`	my actual sides	[03:34]
mircea_popescu	as in, "kissing Arielle Duhaime-Ross will give you herpes, but reading her inanity in the verge will give you derpes"	[03:34]
asciilifeform	(from, naturally, rt: http://russian.rt.com/article/58508#ixzz3IUAu0a71 )	[03:34]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform wait, what ?!	[03:35]
BingoBoingo	Watch our for the monkeys with Derpes B	[03:35]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: misprint. they fired the monkey.	[03:35]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo you mean derpes c++ ?	[03:35]
asciilifeform	it was 'osama' originally.	[03:35]
mircea_popescu	oic lol	[03:35]
nubbins`	EATS THE TRAILING NEWLINE <<< fwiw deeds eats the trailing	[03:36]
nubbins`	srsly, won't verify with it	[03:36]
nubbins`	yes	[03:36]
ben_vulpes	wow did you assholes poop out 1600 lines today?	[03:36]
nubbins`	!s deed utils	[03:37]
assbot	6 results for 'deed utils' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=deed+utils	[03:37]
mircea_popescu	;;google wasn't me	[03:37]
gribble	Shaggy - It Wasn't Me - YouTube: ; It Wasn't Me - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; It Wasn't Me Lyrics Shaggy - Genius:	[03:37]
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ben_vulpes	heyo jurov mailthing still ongoing saga?	[03:37]
nubbins`	jurov http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-11-2014#908001	[03:37]
assbot	Logged on 03-11-2014 17:23:14; nubbins`: tool for predicting deed ID of clearsigned file: http://pastebin.com/Ls76h1kd	[03:37]
nubbins`	line 11	[03:37]
mircea_popescu	odd	[03:38]
nubbins`	i grab the base64 deed via json when verifying	[03:38]
nubbins`	but it's not necessary to b64 anything	[03:39]
ben_vulpes	hah you guys got nubbins` programming?	[03:39]
nubbins`	5 years in the trenches, baby	[03:39]
ben_vulpes	(again)?	[03:40]
nubbins`	no. never again.	[03:40]
nubbins`	but try as i may, some parts of my old brain just won't reformat	[03:40]
mircea_popescu	coding is like buttsex, can be enjoyable if well paced.	[03:41]
nubbins`	jurov fwiw some (most?) text editors append a at the end of text files	[03:41]
nubbins`	i know pico does	[03:41]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: also in the permanent deformations of the respective organs.	[03:41]
nubbins`	heh	[03:41]
mircea_popescu	that's a myth.	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	i bet you you can't pikc out butt virgins in a line-up.	[03:42]
*	asciilifeform can only speak for the programming	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	not unless the actual women open up.	[03:42]
nubbins`	jurov true. upon reopening the file it's there	[03:42]
nubbins`	but...	[03:42]
nubbins`	how does one save a text file that doesn't end in ?	[03:42]
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nubbins`	not so easy	[03:42]
ben_vulpes	so does the patchpusher work or not?	[03:42]
mircea_popescu	prototype works, more stuff to be added.	[03:43]
nubbins`	truthfully i wonder if deedbot shouldn't be stripping the trailing	[03:43]
mircea_popescu	why ?	[03:43]
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nubbins`	ehh	[03:43]
nubbins`	i don't know ;/	[03:43]
mircea_popescu	lmao	[03:44]
mircea_popescu	maybe darcs should strip the trailing then ?	[03:44]
nubbins`	why in the fuck do text editors add it in the first place?	[03:44]
nubbins`	mildly amusing that this is the most difficult part of all this stuff, in the meantime	[03:45]
mircea_popescu	yup	[03:45]
undata	nubbins`: some farty unix convention	[03:45]
undata	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/729692/why-should-files-end-with-a-newline	[03:45]
assbot	history - Why should files end with a newline? - Stack Overflow	[03:45]
nubbins`	i assumed it was so if you spat the file out, the bash prompt would be on a new line	[03:46]
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undata	everyone in that thread is just saying that they're "supposed to"	[03:47]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` im pretty sure that's what it is.	[03:47]
nubbins`	well i can see what they mean	[03:47]
nubbins`	you dirty a line, you provide a clean one to the next guy	[03:47]
asciilifeform	!s postel's law	[03:48]
assbot	3 results for 'postel's law' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=postel%27s+law	[03:48]
nubbins`	so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the at eof	[03:48]
*	asciilifeform not enamoured with postel's law	[03:48]
nubbins`	punkman ^	[03:48]
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nubbins`	http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_206	[03:50]
assbot	Definitions	[03:50]
mircea_popescu	!up hank_	[03:51]
-assbot-	You voiced hank_ for 30 minutes.	[03:51]
*	assbot gives voice to hank_	[03:51]
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asciilifeform	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2826980/Winston-Churchill-s-bid-nuke-Russia-win-Cold-War-uncovered-secret-FBI-files.html << ideal example of 'crank bait' method. perfectly factual allegation, regarded as nearly hundred percent proven by ru historians for decades. 'smoking gun' finally out. what does lizard hitler do? orders it printed in 'daily mail.'	[03:54]
assbot	Winston Churchill's 'bid to nuke Russia' to win Cold War uncovered \| Daily Mail Online	[03:54]
asciilifeform	'what kind of fool would believe document from 'daily mail' ?'	[03:55]
mircea_popescu	the romanian epxression is, "perfidul albion"	[03:56]
asciilifeform	lol!	[03:56]
mircea_popescu	anyway, nothing remarkable there. it's to be used like any other thing.	[04:00]
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asciilifeform	as a 'zoologist' of these, can't help but notice the extraordinarily-obvious specimen in the wild.	[04:01]
cazalla	http://qntra.net/2014/11/cryptocoinsnews-disable-your-adblocker/	[04:01]
assbot	CryptoCoinsNews: Disable Your Adblocker! \| Qntra.net	[04:01]
mircea_popescu	lawl	[04:02]
mircea_popescu	!s David Parker	[04:02]
assbot	1 results for 'David Parker' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=David+Parker	[04:02]
undata	speaking of unremarkable news: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/13/us-military-considers-troops-iraq-general	[04:02]
assbot	US military considers sending combat troops to battle Isis forces in Iraq \| US news \| The Guardian	[04:03]
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undata	I guess Iraq is the ditch we want to die in	[04:03]
ben_vulpes	yes	[04:03]
ben_vulpes	double down	[04:03]
ben_vulpes	more shellshock in the populace	[04:03]
ben_vulpes	actually probably less cuz drones, n'est?	[04:03]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/13/eric-frein-terrorism-charges-pennsylvania-police-ambush	[04:04]
assbot	Eric Frein to face terrorism charges over fatal Pennsylvania police ambush \| US news \| The Guardian	[04:04]
cazalla	mircea_popescu, prolly a fake name, i've searched and searched and there is nothing on this guy	[04:04]
undata	ben_vulpes: this us heading back in with marines	[04:04]
undata	*is us	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	cazalla yeah, it's a fake name.	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	prolly the gaw dude himself.	[04:04]
mircea_popescu	"Charge based on letter by Frein calling for revolution" << :D	[04:04]
undata	ben_vulpes: the classic "just the tip" maneuver	[04:05]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Seemed inevitable	[04:05]
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mircea_popescu	undata the funny part is, the us got so fucking raped in iraq it's hard to describe. now they want to go for round two ?	[04:14]
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mircea_popescu	it's impractical, 2000s us could borrow the 50trn they used. 2015s us can not.	[04:14]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: remaining u.s. physical industry is 99% iraq-based (that is, hardware whose inventory must be churned in some iraq or other.)	[04:15]
asciilifeform	so, gotta churn inventory.	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	it's not inventory unless you can replace it.	[04:15]
mircea_popescu	to make it perfectly clear : any sunk cruiser reduces the total count of cruisers the us will ever have by 1.	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	every downed plane is downed for good.	[04:16]
asciilifeform	those who order the churn, have no concept that there will not be replacement ordered.	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	perpahs.	[04:16]
mircea_popescu	anyway, if anyone has a direct interest in the welfare of the poor grunts involved, like loved ones or w/e :	[04:16]
BingoBoingo	Oh look, its the S.MPOE market cap: https://twitter.com/ScottWuerz/status/533076669419245568	[04:17]
assbot	So much for speculation about no more 10-yr deals. Heyman says MIA taking w/Stanton about a 12-yr, $300 mil deal. How will they afford it?	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	the coming iraq campaign will be the first one the us soldiers will not have enough boots and shit. maybe best enlist for something else.	[04:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00044459 = 12.6708 BTC [+] {3}	[04:17]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: not the first. i vaguely recall '1 flak jacket for 3 men' in the last one	[04:17]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03 ^^ ?	[04:17]
undata	mircea_popescu: they didn't even have enough armor, etc., last time	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform flak jackets != boots.	[04:17]
mircea_popescu	yes, trhey were short materiel.	[04:18]
mircea_popescu	this time they will be short toilet paper and toothpaste.	[04:18]
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BingoBoingo	I recall they were short on toilet paper and toothpaste last time. I recall solicitations for "care packages" consisting of basic necessities when I was at school.	[04:19]
asciilifeform	saw this, yes	[04:19]
asciilifeform	the one that always got me was the donation box for 'books'	[04:19]
asciilifeform	yes, generic 'books.'	[04:19]
asciilifeform	brought to mind the possibility that these were to be used in lieu of toilet paper.	[04:19]
mircea_popescu	wouldn't that come with a "no bibles please" ?	[04:20]
asciilifeform	they get those from usg.	[04:20]
BingoBoingo	They really do	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	as in, too smooth for use.	[04:20]
asciilifeform	aha.	[04:20]
asciilifeform	and printed on telephone book paper.	[04:20]
mircea_popescu	should be funny to see when the first supposed army uniot goes native.	[04:21]
mircea_popescu	happened to the late romans a whole heck of a lot more than they ever cared to admit	[04:21]
undata	I can't rub two coherent thoughts together that make going back to Iraq a good idea.	[04:21]
undata	mass delusion?	[04:21]
BingoBoingo	I thought that was linked here not too long ago, except they went native at their own station.	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	in fact, it was the premier driver behind the eventual move to mercenaries, something otherwise politically incomprehensible for today's curious student.	[04:22]
undata	so this islamic state consolidates parts of the middle east? that's probably a great thing.	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	but the politicos of the time were caught in the very real vice of "well, rome's poor or the vandals, about as trustworthy"	[04:22]
*	assbot removes voice from hank_	[04:22]
mircea_popescu	undata not for local women.	[04:22]
asciilifeform	this is why no going native.	[04:22]
undata	mircea_popescu: certainly not. neither is the current circumstance though	[04:23]
asciilifeform	who the hell wants to go native - there.	[04:23]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform every young man.	[04:23]
asciilifeform	american?	[04:23]
mircea_popescu	undata women are principally distinguished by a preference for the shit they know.	[04:23]
mircea_popescu	that's actually what womanhood MEANS.	[04:23]
undata	hm.	[04:23]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform sure. think about it : be the gods of their age group ? instead of going home to hear a stupid bitchfest, stay with the people where rape is something you're supposed to do ?	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	why were they in the army in the first place,. to police reddit ?	[04:24]
asciilifeform	to get their teeth done.	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	maybe.	[04:24]
undata	if we see IS as an actual threat, we really must be in sore shape.	[04:24]
mircea_popescu	notice that in a group of 100k idiots, you may end up with a subgroup of 100 or 10 idiots of any particular braindamage you wish.	[04:24]
BingoBoingo	to get their teeth done. << One cousin enlisted for this reason. Now afraid of dentists.	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	i can readily see numerous angles through which retiring from the us military to baghdad rather than kansas is preferable to the 19 yo mind.	[04:25]
mircea_popescu	really, the lucky aspect for the us army officers is that the arabs don't bother to learn english. otherwise, the sheer cultural pressure would probably make "boots on ground" untenable.	[04:26]
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asciilifeform	the phase transition may be the point where we leave 'desertion means no more toilet paper' and move to 'desertion means access to toilet paper.'	[04:27]
mircea_popescu	it's already "desertion means leaving a world that you don't understand" and move to "desertion means joining a world you easily do"	[04:28]
asciilifeform	(or more fantastic example - ice cream. i have it on good authority that many american units in iraq were supplied even with it.)	[04:28]
mircea_popescu	lol why wouldn't they be ?!	[04:28]
asciilifeform	because wtf.	[04:29]
mircea_popescu	icecream has been a part of rations since vietnam	[04:29]
asciilifeform	somebody wake up mats_cd03.	[04:30]
asciilifeform	or perhaps he is already being shaved and fitted with new uniform for the next gig.	[04:31]
*	BingoBoingo recalls friend telling stories that when the was in the Infantry every few weeks he'd have to watch the Airforce at his base have friendly BBQ's with thier Afghans	[04:31]
undata	a brother of a friend was in fallujah; I've heard a few of his stories, and they weren't about iced cream.	[04:32]
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undata	why "IS"? I'm sure he and others clearing houses of everything that moved didn't help.	[04:33]
BingoBoingo	The spectrum of US Armed forces experiences this past decade is a wide one. The cousin nao afraid of dentist in his whole time enlisted in the marines was either in the US or on a boat.	[04:33]
BingoBoingo	Well, ISI* probably because 'Murica wasn't as scary as Saddam, so Pro Idiotas had room	[04:34]
BingoBoingo	And eventually after some embarrassment they have less ideas and America leaves, then ??? ISIL	[04:35]
BingoBoingo	Pretty much the story of Los Zetas, but in reverse	[04:36]
mircea_popescu	something like that. woman previously married to some hard drinking bozo meets a phthisc young man who's a "student" whatever that may mean. the three quarrel, the kid ends up killing the man, talks the woman up a storm then... leaves ?	[04:37]
mircea_popescu	she's too horny to go to bed so she fucks a coupla passing bums, with disastrous effects.	[04:37]
BingoBoingo	Los Zetas started as a bunch of experts, but finite hit points and now the human shields are in charge and Nuevo Laredo can't have a nice hooker district anymore	[04:38]
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mircea_popescu	http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/09/201191010256505546.html	[04:41]
assbot	The West's self-licking ice cream cones - Opinion - Al Jazeera English	[04:41]
mircea_popescu	somewhat related.	[04:41]
mircea_popescu	As far as I am aware, the phrase came into usage among knowing observers of the Vietnam War. A self-licking ice cream cone is a programme or policy that costs money and resources, generating a great deal of activity; produces indicators of its own success, preferably quantitative; but does not actually achieve its announced goals. Indeed, a proper self-licking cone undermines the very purposes for which it was created,	[04:42]
mircea_popescu	while at the same time sucking in ever more resources from worthy and effective activities.	[04:42]
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cazalla	mircea_popescu: icecream has been a part of rations since vietnam <<< lt dan, icecream!	[04:42]
asciilifeform	self-licking ice cream cone << i learned the phrase from mr. mold, who used it to describe u.s. academia.	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	More targets meant more bombing, and more bombing meant a bigger role for the USAF. The result was more budget, more planes, and career advancement for all concerned.	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	The only problem was that the bombing was helping lose the war. Predictably, the peasants turned against Saigon, leading to the introduction of US ground forces in 1965. Like the “body count”, the number of “structures” destroyed had no relation to actually winning the war. It was an indicator of organisational “success” wholly divorced from reality, and from the values that the organisation was supposed to	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	be serving. The USAF was killing the very peasants it was there to save from communism.	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	pretty much the story of iraq v1 and v2, for that matter.	[04:43]
mircea_popescu	a bureaucracy is history-less, in that it is incapable of learning from its mistakes, just like amoeba is incapable of learning writing.	[04:44]
*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	it will follow the sugar gradient and that's all it does.	[04:44]
nubbins`	http://i.imgur.com/rOmIAe1.jpg	[04:44]
nubbins`	dat silkscreened photograph	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` how much did that run cost ?	[04:44]
mircea_popescu	o nm, it's not a book, it's a poster.	[04:45]
nubbins`	http://i.imgur.com/6qVTCuK.jpg close up	[04:46]
nubbins`	http://i.imgur.com/04rtgLI.jpg unsuccessful attempt w/ stochastic dots	[04:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00043619 = 29.3338 BTC [-] {3}	[04:47]
*	BingoBoingo remembers publishing a poetry book at a ninety something percent loss. -ISBN-(sample copies)+(~7 dollars in ebook revenue from Austrialia) = Loss, I was enlightened, also a week later on lithium	[04:48]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo how many sales is 7 bux ?	[04:49]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: 20 or so I believe. I think on ebooks I got 30%. "Self" publishing is a racket	[04:50]
mircea_popescu	indeed.	[04:50]
BingoBoingo	But I was young, dumb, and in grad school pt. 1	[04:51]
mircea_popescu	unless you actually self publish. asylum ended up costing about 1.40 per copy, printfiles -> distributor warehouse.	[04:51]
BingoBoingo	Yeah. In the aftermath I did the math on, "What if I actually had something worth publishing on tree cadavers"	[04:52]
mircea_popescu	basically, everywhere guis are a racket.	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	when one approaches you with the proposition of "making things easy" what he means is, your wallet. easier to carry.	[04:54]
mircea_popescu	things that can be easy already are. things that aren't easy can't be made "easier". if you can't afford a house, taking credit doesn't make the house easier. etc.	[04:55]
asciilifeform	the great crime of the 'easy self publishing' of today's automagic laser-printer-with-binding-machine is... on the reader.	[04:55]
asciilifeform	not long ago, i opened yet another envelope in expectation of finding 'a book that was actually a book once' and got an ms-word formatted turd	[04:56]
BingoBoingo	Oh, and original resolution of the NL MVP Stanton bet ended up being right. You can have the mods clear out all of that penny sports bet baseball spam nao	[04:56]
asciilifeform	with contents to match.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform o btw, does the end product of my first foray into that industry suck ?	[04:56]
asciilifeform	it's a riot, actually	[04:56]
asciilifeform	i was thinking of a different envelope.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	i mean as a product. the thing itself.	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	teh item	[04:56]
mircea_popescu	i ask you for i suspect you've read books before.	[04:57]
asciilifeform	lol	[04:57]
mircea_popescu	(true story, gave one to woman, she's like "oh this is so nice, i've never read a book before!"	[04:57]
mircea_popescu	intending it as a sort of compliment i guess ?)	[04:57]
asciilifeform	;;google is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote	[04:57]
gribble	Programming Sucks - Still Drinking: ; Will Smith Quotes (Author of Just the Two of Us) - Goodreads: ; How To Become A Hacker - Catb.org:	[04:57]
asciilifeform	damn, wish i could find that ancient piece.	[04:58]
*	BingoBoingo was disappointed in the quality of his print on demand turd. The spine was an outie...	[04:58]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo pod sucked for a long time	[04:58]
BingoBoingo	On a paperback	[04:58]
mircea_popescu	by now it's maibe okish	[04:58]
BingoBoingo	Twas 2009, POD had been a thing for a while	[04:58]
asciilifeform	by now they have it to the level of the crappier mass-produced books.	[04:59]
BingoBoingo	I mean it's solid. I didn't get gyp'd on glue	[04:59]
asciilifeform	still can't get, afaik, 'lay-flats' other than the spiral variety	[04:59]
asciilifeform	lay-flat requires, i think, saddle-stitch binding	[04:59]
asciilifeform	rather than glue	[04:59]
asciilifeform	for what it's worth, i routinely use 'lulu.com' as a personal printer.	[05:00]
asciilifeform	works great.	[05:00]
BingoBoingo	If I were to imagine a serious book piracy operation, the standard glue "Perfect" binding would be prefered	[05:00]
BingoBoingo	Lulu.com was my printer too!	[05:00]
asciilifeform	they have, afaik, the whole thing automated. from 'pdf' to mailing crate.	[05:01]
asciilifeform	quite possibly no human ever even sees the result.	[05:01]
asciilifeform	when i say 'personal printer', i mean, in lieu of an actual printer.	[05:01]
asciilifeform	of the kind one may keep on a desk.	[05:01]
asciilifeform	for instance, i like, e.g., ic data sheets, in dead tree.	[05:02]
BingoBoingo	Ah	[05:02]
asciilifeform	i don't own a computer 'fast' enough to 'flip' a pdf the way a dead tree heap can be flipped, and not sure if such a machine even exists.	[05:02]
mircea_popescu	"Would you drive across this bridge? No. If it somehow got built, everybody involved would be executed. Yet some version of this dynamic wrote every single program you have ever used, banking software, websites, and a ubiquitously used program that was supposed to protect information on the internet but didn't."	[05:02]
mircea_popescu	which is why i am so keen on executions.	[05:03]
asciilifeform	yeah i think we did that one here	[05:03]
asciilifeform	not the article in question though	[05:03]
cazalla	" Earlier in 2014, the SEC investigated Eric Voorhees for the unregistered sale of securities of SatoshiDICE and FeedZeBirds, using the Romanian online crowdsale platform MPEx to solicit investors from 2012 to 2013."	[05:03]
asciilifeform	but for some reason yes, google brings it up for 'real program or something somebody wrote'	[05:03]
BingoBoingo	cazalla: I wrote a piece on that once	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	cazalla let me guess, they sourced it and everything.	[05:03]
mircea_popescu	which is how they got the wrong year.	[05:04]
cazalla	http://www.kattenlaw.com/showadvisory.aspx?Show=47630 if you are interested	[05:04]
assbot	Recent Key Bitcoin and Virtual Currency Regulatory and Law Enforcement Developments \| Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP	[05:04]
BingoBoingo	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/06/03/the-sec-bares-its-gums-and-settles-with-erik/ cazalla	[05:04]
assbot	The SEC Bares its Gums and Settles with Erik \| Bingo Blog	[05:04]
cazalla	BingoBoingo, i've read that, this is just something i come across while looking for news	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	well, i guess this is a good point for anyone considering using Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP : don't.	[05:04]
mircea_popescu	they're too lazy to do their research and sprout nonsense in their pr. imagine the sort of horribru buried in their court filings	[05:05]
BingoBoingo	Oh, so like the think that got shat into news about litecoin mining which was settled last year	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	admitting anyone was to date naive enough to allow them to file on his behalf.	[05:05]
mircea_popescu	anyway, one of those fast food chains of legal practice. high churn, large staff of largely unqualified lawyers on dead end career tracks, whole thing kept together by paralegals, somewhat.	[05:06]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: found it!! >> https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00184.html	[05:07]
assbot	my evolution as a programmer	[05:07]
asciilifeform	original link dead many years ago, but - mirror.	[05:07]
asciilifeform	(why this was relevant - i will explain later. assuming anyone still cares. and is awake.)	[05:08]
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BingoBoingo	I'm awake for a while. Winter came. Interfered with my sleep	[05:10]
nubbins`	<+mircea_popescu> unless you actually self publish. <<< preach it	[05:10]
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nubbins`	vanity publishing is often a break-even venture at best	[05:11]
mircea_popescu	i'm awake because real cults don't sleep, they wait.	[05:11]
nubbins`	cthulhu fh'tagn	[05:11]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` what i meant was a distinction between self publishing, ie, being the editor, and self-rape, ie, being the customer of an editor specialised in raping idiots.	[05:11]
nubbins`	nod, full agreement here	[05:12]
mircea_popescu	this, incidentally, is exactly how hiring a lawyer has worked since at last the 60s	[05:12]
mircea_popescu	and how hiring a doctor is starting to be, too.	[05:12]
nubbins`	you gotta fight for your health here	[05:13]
nubbins`	digging in your heels is the only way	[05:13]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform can you summarily introduce "menu-lookup" writing of glue code for the innocent ?	[05:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37291 @ 0.00043536 = 16.235 BTC [-]	[05:14]
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mircea_popescu	"Is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote?" << ah yea, now this makes sense. i had the exact same notion, for exactly the same reason. a "real program" was something that didn't need to use the z80 basic interpreter, wasn't editable for this reason, and this immutability was cool. then on the msdos system, .exe binaries exactly mapped on this same structure of cool.	[05:17]
BingoBoingo	!up devthedev	[05:17]
*	assbot gives voice to devthedev	[05:17]
nubbins`	the day i realized i could just type spcinvad instead of spcinvad.exe!!	[05:18]
mircea_popescu	i loved deathtrack, and i spent a while finetuning the sound implementation of basic to make the same laser sound.	[05:19]
mircea_popescu	i think in the end i got it, and so i could fire as much as i wanted, no concern for bs "laser heating"	[05:20]
mircea_popescu	then i plugged a led into the serial port and had it blink when i lasered too, and this i think was the pinnacle of achievement.	[05:20]
nubbins`	openbazaar is going to change thzzzzzzz	[05:20]
nubbins`	oo a hud for your laser	[05:21]
nubbins`	nb	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	imagine this, a 12 yo could figure out the serial port interface in ms-dos, without even knowing wtf a port or an interface are.	[05:21]
mircea_popescu	and with a led, mind, which only works on certain voltage going a certain way.	[05:22]
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nubbins`	that 12yo must have grown up to be the smartest man alive	[05:26]
mircea_popescu	as it just so happens, that theory is about to get tested.	[05:28]
mircea_popescu	"Write a program that prints the numbers from 1 to 100. But for multiples of three print “Fizz” instead of the number and for the multiples of five print “Buzz”. For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print “FizzBuzz”.	[05:28]
mircea_popescu	for i x to y output + Fizz if i\|3 output + Buzz if i\|5 output + i if output is empty.	[05:29]
mircea_popescu	do i pass ?	[05:29]
nubbins`	i think if the current smartest man can't say for sure, then yes	[05:32]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41600 @ 0.00043724 = 18.1892 BTC [+]	[05:47]
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xanthyos	ok i may be wasting my time but i'm going to try to get that guy thomas_d into the wot again tonight	[05:49]
xanthyos	persistence paid off with bagels7	[05:50]
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asciilifeform	menu-lookup writing of glue code << refers to systems like the (1990s? no idea if still fits this description) 'visual basic' and the like.	[05:52]
asciilifeform	where gigantic swaths of (hesitate to even call it a) program - get 'written for you'	[05:52]
mircea_popescu	basically i got the idea from reading the piece that he means code that implements the "cut problem into parts, implement parts, glue parts together" approach	[05:53]
asciilifeform	producing buckets upon buckets of boilerplate crud	[05:53]
asciilifeform	aha no. he was speaking of 'glue code' in the sense of gluing heavy 'prefab' swaths together	[05:53]
mircea_popescu	so dreamweaver is an example ?	[05:53]
asciilifeform	something which the archetypical 'indian replacement programmer' occupies himself with.	[05:53]
*	asciilifeform innocent of 'dreamweaver', cannot say	[05:54]
mircea_popescu	adobe "autobuild your website" code	[05:54]
asciilifeform	aha then likely.	[05:54]
mircea_popescu	was famous before mullenderp raped poetry a new hole, because you could tell from all the ad>>> mess that it had been used.	[05:55]
mircea_popescu	now those people mostly use wordpress, with PLUGINS	[05:55]
asciilifeform	aha, reminiscent of msword html output.	[05:55]
mircea_popescu	then ben_vulpes is here going "hmm, where the fuck is this nonsense hardcoded in"	[05:55]
*	asciilifeform actually uses a (very threadbare) 'wordpress'	[05:56]
mircea_popescu	me too.	[05:56]
mircea_popescu	or what's left of one.	[05:56]
asciilifeform	^ yes.	[05:56]
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mircea_popescu	makes php better rhan c i guess	[05:56]
mircea_popescu	adobe's shit is written in c, nobody can be bothered to compule it	[05:56]
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asciilifeform	adobe never once, afaik, published source for anything	[05:56]
asciilifeform	other than 'alchemy'	[05:57]
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asciilifeform	(a crackpot gcc port with... flash (!, yes) back-end)	[05:57]
asciilifeform	that was a real riot, incidentally	[05:57]
asciilifeform	somebody even got 'doom' to build.	[05:57]
asciilifeform	http://peterelst.com/blog/2008/12/18/porting-doom-to-flash-interview-with-mike-welsh	[05:58]
assbot	Porting Doom to Flash - Interview with Mike Welsh — Peter Elst	[05:58]
asciilifeform	^ that one.	[05:58]
asciilifeform	(why? no one knows! but it was done.)	[05:58]
mircea_popescu	this was leaked in what, 2002 ?	[06:01]
cazalla	http://qntra.net/2014/11/david-woo-of-bank-of-america-merrill-lynch-dont-invest-in-bitcoin/	[06:02]
assbot	David Woo Of Bank of America Merrill Lynch: Don't Invest In Bitcoin \| Qntra.net	[06:02]
cazalla	ooh, scoopbot is back, wb scoopbot	[06:02]
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scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/david-woo-of-bank-of-america-merrill-lynch-dont-invest-in-bitcoin/	[06:04]
decimation	I could see some sense in a 'delay' in the case that an actual human examines the transactions before they are released	[06:06]
decimation	but in that case it wouldn't be an arbitrary delay enforced by a cron job for no reason	[06:06]
decimation	I remember playing 'doom' on my hp-48 calculator	[06:07]
decimation	someone ported to 'saturn' assembly	[06:07]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2891 @ 0.0004336 = 1.2535 BTC [-]	[06:13]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54000 @ 0.00043323 = 23.3944 BTC [-] {2}	[06:20]
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mircea_popescu	cazalla lulzy quote.	[06:21]
mircea_popescu	will be funny reference in teh future.	[06:21]
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PeterL	mrjr:thestringpuller: i'll work on getting my creds in order :) meni rosenfeld is one of our investors, and our cto Shaul Kfir was a reviewer for the sidechain paper. << wasn't Meni Rosenfeld connected with a GLBSE scam?	[06:23]
mircea_popescu	!up cb_bitcoin	[06:23]
-assbot-	You voiced cb_bitcoin for 30 minutes.	[06:23]
*	assbot gives voice to cb_bitcoin	[06:23]
mircea_popescu	PeterL from bitdaytrade to whatever you want.	[06:23]
PeterL	perhaps not the best name to drop as WoT cred?	[06:24]
mircea_popescu	guy specialises in vouching for scams, he's a sort of max keiser for his space.	[06:24]
mircea_popescu	speaking of which, what ever happened to aurora coin ? has it passed ethereum yet ?	[06:24]
mircea_popescu	"So no, I'm not required to be able to lift objects weighing up to fifty pounds. I traded that for the opportunity to trim Satan's pubic hair while he dines out of my open skull so a few bits of the internet will continue to work for a few more days."	[06:26]
mircea_popescu	heh. alternatively, just don't write dumbass ajax websites for monkeys. big fucking deal, srsly.	[06:26]
BingoBoingo	"You can't arrest me. I'm the Cake Boss" http://4.nbcny.com/SGgcUl1	[06:27]
assbot	TLC's "Cake Boss" Arrested on DWI Charges in Manhattan: NYPD \| NBC New York	[06:27]
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asciilifeform	http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NYC-New-York-Hasidic-Jewish-Arrests-Mortgage-Fraud-FBI-Orange-County-282544591.html << more interesting	[06:29]
assbot	NY Family Accused of Taking Out $20 Million in Mortgages While Collecting Food Stamps \| NBC New York	[06:29]
mircea_popescu	how is this an accusation ?	[06:29]
*	mpmcsweeney (~mpmcsween@c-98-217-146-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:30]
mircea_popescu	a ok, fraud.	[06:31]
asciilifeform	real question: in which direction.	[06:31]
mircea_popescu	In one instance, one of Rubin's relatives claimed weekly income of $200 to get Medicaid and food stamps while claiming a net worth of $10 million to banks in order to get $7 million in loans.	[06:32]
mircea_popescu	this is presented as contradictory, but it actually isn't.	[06:32]
asciilifeform	i.e., borrowing $20m while broke and on food stamps? or fraudulently collecting food stamps while bathing in $20m bezzlars.	[06:32]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i think one can genuinely be both simultaenously in the us atm.	[06:32]
asciilifeform	'is it rape if the check bounced?'	[06:32]
mircea_popescu	much like 1990 russian megacorps.	[06:33]
asciilifeform	i imagine we will see	[06:33]
asciilifeform	my guess is - yes, both.	[06:33]
decimation	http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/us/cuts-in-military-mean-job-losses-for-career-staff.html?_r=0 << usg is broke, decides to 'fire' army officers rather than cut back food stamps	[06:38]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times	[06:38]
decimation	although to be precise, the way the military 'fires' officers is more of a 'pocket veto' - if you fail to make the cut for promotion (at higher grades) you are automatically discharged	[06:39]
asciilifeform	used to be called, 'cachiering'	[06:39]
mircea_popescu	http://qntra.net/2014/11/bip-65-revisiting-nlocktime/ << the problem with this is that if a miner doesn't implement the new protocol, and mines a block in spite of the supposed nlocktime lock, that block is well spent.	[06:40]
assbot	BIP-65: Revisiting nLockTime \| Qntra.net	[06:40]
mircea_popescu	so a softfork does not in fact do anything, the dblspending party can just mine their own dblspend and that's that.	[06:41]
decimation	wait, they decide protocol details on twitter now?	[06:42]
BingoBoingo	Actual soft for yes, but "if all the miners accept" softfork is a hardfork	[06:42]
asciilifeform	for those who missed, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#920112	[06:42]
assbot	Logged on 13-11-2014 19:04:36; *: asciilifeform admits that he suspects bip64 of being a plot to create usg-like bonds in btc. folks will be asked to trace X proper btc for X+epsilon 'locked' ones that are to land back in their pocket 'in the future', should they live long enough, but are actually recovable 'because this is how the world works'	[06:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56873 @ 0.00044346 = 25.2209 BTC [+] {2}	[06:42]
decimation	oh wait, I thought the delays that the scammer was writing about were simply 'private delays' on the part of the machine	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	Proving sacrifice to miners' fees	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	Proving the sacrifice of some limited resource is a common technique in a variety of cryptographic protocols. Proving sacrifices of coins to mining fees has been proposed as a universal public good to which the sacrifice could be directed, rather than simply destroying the coins. However doing so is non-trivial, and even the best existing technqiue - announce-commit sacrifices - could encourage mining centralization. C	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	HECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can be used to create outputs that are provably spendable by anyone (thus to mining fees assuming miners behave optimally and rationally) but only at a time sufficiently far into the future that large miners profitably can't sell the sacrifices at a discount.	[06:43]
decimation	They want to bake it into the protocol? That's fuckin nuts	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	this is perhaps the most braindamaged nonsense i read today.	[06:43]
mircea_popescu	desperately needs more "expert" economists and whatnot.	[06:43]
decimation	"universal public good"	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	Actual soft for yes, but "if all the miners accept" softfork is a hardfork << "all miners accept" means what ?	[06:44]
mircea_popescu	until a new miner joins ?	[06:44]
decimation	re: experts: http://rwcg.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/id-rather-have-this-bill-than-not-dictated-the-professor/	[06:45]
assbot	“I’d rather have this bill than not”, dictated the Professor \| RWCG	[06:45]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Means old clients accept giberish, but miners actually hardfork if a "time locked" signature is mined early	[06:45]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo only workls for as long as they actually do.	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	tomorrow large miner joins, doesn't implement it, they hardfork all they want, chainwarz.	[06:46]
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mircea_popescu	peppering this sort of nonsense in the code is a prime way to ensure the rough equivalent of "atomic weapons" for future negotiations.	[06:46]
mircea_popescu	"give us your daugther or we fork it" sort of bs.	[06:46]
BingoBoingo	Well, https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2i6pz0/peter_todds_checklocktimeverify_means_bitcoin/cm0liy8 seems not to be popular with the redditards, but on blocksizefork Bitpay has an incentive to choose the shitgnome side and face punishment	[06:47]
assbot	Atruk comments on Peter Todd's CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY Means Bitcoin Escrow, Refunds and a Fork	[06:47]
mircea_popescu	"It all traces back to the fact that the academy did not police itself properly. They gave, or through their inaction/laziness allowed to get, this guy and his (retarded) output the mantle of ‘expertise’. If the bad PR spilling off of him now redounds back onto other academicians in his peer group I understand that will be unfair in some cases but they have only themselves to blame."	[06:48]
mircea_popescu	it is not unfair in any case.	[06:48]
BingoBoingo	Because of course Vessenes' foundation wants bigger blocks when its only surviving members that pay it need bigger blocks	[06:48]
mircea_popescu	they should all hang for his sins. he may get off with prison, being just a fraud	[06:48]
mircea_popescu	but the actual professionals should hang, by their own guts.	[06:48]
decimation	yeah the author doesn't go far enough	[06:49]
mircea_popescu	"Seriously, I bet the ‘model’ is some kind of gunky spreadsheet. Or something little better, anyway. A mishmash of data being shoved together to reach predetermined conclusions, with tons of ad hoc assumptions. " << sounds like exactly dub's brew :D	[06:50]
decimation	I would bet money on that too	[06:50]
mircea_popescu	but hey, who's to argue with the politico-experts, right ?	[06:50]
decimation	he should start a bitbet	[06:50]
asciilifeform	in other news...	[06:51]
asciilifeform	'...in one case, the discovery that the crews that maintain the nation’s 450 intercontinental ballistic missiles had only a single wrench that could attach the nuclear warheads. “They started FedExing the one tool” to three bases spread across the country, one official familiar with the contents of the reports said Thursday. No one had checked in years “to see if new tools were being made,” the offici	[06:51]
asciilifeform	al said. This was one of many maintenance problems that had “been around so long that no one reported them anymore.”'	[06:51]
asciilifeform	( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/us/politics/pentagon-studies-reveal-major-nuclear-problems.html )	[06:51]
assbot	Log In - The New York Times	[06:51]
BingoBoingo	I could seriously imagine the chinese miners being coerced to oppose a USGaving blocksize increase simply because it hurts the payment processors. Bezelzebub bless the triad of mutual enemies working together for our success!	[06:51]
decimation	asciilifeform: supposedly that socket wrench that destroyed the missile in the silo in arkansas was 'ilegal'	[06:52]
decimation	now you know why	[06:52]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo anyway, all the more reasons to have a proper, functional implementation of the canonical bitcoin code	[06:52]
mircea_popescu	for all these idiots to fall back on once the shit hits the fan.	[06:52]
decimation	yeah, if anything it's sewing ascii's parachute before being needed	[06:53]
*	assbot gives voice to joecool	[06:53]
BingoBoingo	Indeed, but also a factor that will provide the catalyst for the acceptance of Venetian Bitcoind	[06:53]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile they can all hold hands with the canada chick and chant how "bitcoin is not coming and not posing a risk"	[06:53]
mircea_popescu	noably, romania's president announced in 2009 that "criza financiara va ocoli romania"	[06:53]
mircea_popescu	literally, the crisis will go around romania.	[06:53]
*	assbot removes voice from cb_bitcoin	[06:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40904 @ 0.00044601 = 18.2436 BTC [+] {2}	[06:54]
decimation	mircea_popescu: you mean that julia character	[06:54]
mircea_popescu	w/e her name is.	[06:54]
mircea_popescu	was on qntra earlier, which is the only reason she's notable.	[06:54]
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mircea_popescu	http://qntra.net/2014/11/bank-of-canada-bitcoin-poses-no-risk-but-well-watch-it-closely-anyway/	[06:54]
assbot	Bank of Canada: Bitcoin Poses No Risk But We'll Watch It Closely Anyway \| Qntra.net	[06:54]
mircea_popescu	Carolyn Wilkins	[06:54]
decimation	ah her	[06:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29318 @ 0.00044997 = 13.1922 BTC [+]	[06:56]
mircea_popescu	!t m s.mpoe	[06:56]
assbot	[MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00036402 / 0.00045973 / 0.00056765 (1289039 shares, 592.62 BTC), 7D: 0.00036402 / 0.00058749 / 0.00068888 (6013699 shares, 3,533.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00036402 / 0.00070655 / 0.00081111 (22518580 shares, 15,910.69 BTC)	[06:56]
BingoBoingo	https://www.quantcast.com/qntra.net << At this point in qntra's age I'm not disliking the sawtooth pattern.	[06:56]
assbot	Qntra.net Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast	[06:56]
decimation	I had a conversation today about some guy who knew a guy who bought a house for $200k in california in 2002 and sold for $700k in 2006	[06:57]
BingoBoingo	Also... Qntra's in the top quarter million nao	[06:57]
mircea_popescu	decimation that's pretty meta...	[06:57]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo yeah seems to be revving up nicely.	[06:57]
decimation	so this guy profits... and the 'taxpayer' picks up the $$bn bill for freddie mac and implicit bank guarantees	[06:58]
decimation	my point being, does bitcoin represent a 'threat' to this arrangement?	[06:58]
BingoBoingo	decimation: I don't think so. Nothing is more fashionable than location.	[06:59]
mircea_popescu	decimation depends. can he do it on your 0.1% ?	[07:01]
decimation	real estate will always be an asset - but the bezzle freshly printing to fund it won't	[07:01]
mircea_popescu	the major point about low taxes is that it makes the pot of the public treasury too small to hold the estimation of the conman	[07:01]
mircea_popescu	and so the conman moves to try adn con private interest.	[07:01]
mircea_popescu	whereas when taxes are significant, the opposite happens.	[07:02]
decimation	that's a good point	[07:02]
decimation	at least with private cons, the damage is likely to be limited and obvious in scope, rather than 'socialized'	[07:02]
mircea_popescu	but in general : it is good that any one person steals any one sum from the usg.	[07:02]
mircea_popescu	this is dead money being returned to live hands.	[07:02]
decimation	mircea_popescu: there are genuine people with genuine skills who spend their entire lives attempting to make usg better	[07:03]
mircea_popescu	the word for this is "idiots"	[07:03]
mircea_popescu	in general, the country suffers when taxes are paid, and gains through graft.	[07:03]
PeterL	http://bablogs.btcscoop.com	[07:03]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets blog posts	[07:04]
PeterL	^ how does that look?	[07:04]
mircea_popescu	great actually	[07:05]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40350 @ 0.00045856 = 18.5029 BTC [+] {2}	[07:05]
BingoBoingo	PeterL: Looks good, think you are missing Ben Fox's blog and maybe a couple others.	[07:05]
PeterL	sure, I can add more	[07:06]
PeterL	links?	[07:06]
BingoBoingo	PeterL: The look, the styling... simply beautiful http://cascadianhacker.com/index.html	[07:06]
assbot	missives from the post-megastate frontier	[07:06]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/people-have-made-blogs/	[07:06]
assbot	People have made blogs pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[07:06]
decimation	mircea_popescu: I would agree with the 'idiot' label - but you realize that this 'catches' at least 95% of humanity - who generally refuse to consider their position w.r.t. the entire world's (and history's) context	[07:06]
mircea_popescu	PeterL also could you make it so only say first 100 words of a post appear ?	[07:06]
mircea_popescu	decimation soooooo	[07:07]
mircea_popescu	fizzbuzz test is supposed to catch 99.5% of "programmers" too neh ?	[07:07]
PeterL	mircea_popescu: I am grabbing the summary, most of them are pretty short	[07:07]
mircea_popescu	nobody ever criticised it for this.	[07:07]
mircea_popescu	PeterL fixed max helps the skim reader	[07:07]
PeterL	sure	[07:08]
*	mircea_popescu asking for a friend.	[07:08]
PeterL	BingoBoingo: cascadianhacker apparently doesn't have a working feed, but I could add it to the list on the right	[07:10]
BingoBoingo	PeterL: Well... I think Ben Fox hosts his blog on emacs	[07:10]
mircea_popescu	lol ben_vulpes the post is the feed eh ?	[07:11]
decimation	mircea_popescu: what stripped down version of wordpress do you use?	[07:13]
decimation	do you update it?	[07:13]
mircea_popescu	i dunno, and nope.	[07:13]
BingoBoingo	decimation: I think I've asked him before. He doesn't update though. He simply patches.	[07:13]
mircea_popescu	not in the past 6 months at least, no.	[07:14]
*	BingoBoingo wishes more software would go the errata+patches route	[07:15]
mircea_popescu	bout 5-6 years ago i had an actual major portal site, dtng (the 4chan clone) was on it, also fain (a romanian digg) and my blog and a bunch of other shit	[07:15]
mircea_popescu	at the time i had a full complement of php coder guru types, threw in "make me a better wp" in a worklist once and well...	[07:15]
decimation	BingoBoingo: well, redhat pretty much operates this way	[07:15]
decimation	rhel has slowly gone downhill over the past few years - becoming more 'poetterized'	[07:16]
BingoBoingo	decimation: Not really. RedHat still has updates. Red Hat's antithesis though...	[07:16]
mircea_popescu	dja mean anathema ?	[07:16]
decimation	one can inspect the patches, if one is willing to sit down and do the work	[07:16]
BingoBoingo	decimation: Well Red Hat hired Poettering	[07:16]
BingoBoingo	I imagine they saw the quick cash the microshit model brings	[07:16]
mircea_popescu	how did that quote go	[07:17]
decimation	well, when money is literally handed out to idiots via gov't programs, tricking idiots into forking over is a great business model	[07:17]
mircea_popescu	"Government sponsored enterprises enter the business, in due course bad behavior is made mandatory, and the evil financial network is bigger than the honest financial network, with the result that even though everyone knows what is happening, people continue to use the paper issued by the evil financial network, because of network effects - the big, main issuers, are the issuers you use if you want to do business."	[07:17]
decimation	yeah that	[07:17]
mircea_popescu	same shit, so foss starts, great, get rhel to be a pentagon contractor.	[07:18]
mircea_popescu	not because you want to use their code	[07:18]
mircea_popescu	but specifically because you do not want to.	[07:18]
mircea_popescu	soon enough...	[07:18]
mircea_popescu	the exact sort of thing that would render a us expeditionary force if the arabs but spoke english, is the exact thing that renders the "well meaning" idiots you mentioned earlier	[07:18]
mircea_popescu	because the bureaucracy DOES speak english.	[07:19]
decimation	I remember those heady days, when it was thought that it wouldn't be possible to 'make money' off of foss	[07:19]
decimation	now I wish the money would go away	[07:19]
mircea_popescu	it would have been, if someone added bitcoin to pgp	[07:19]
mircea_popescu	and pushed the holy trifecta through	[07:19]
mircea_popescu	but who ?	[07:19]
decimation	RMS	[07:19]
decimation	lol	[07:19]
mircea_popescu	people tend to be very laudative of the people that were smart, at any juncture	[07:19]
mircea_popescu	nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you."	[07:19]
BingoBoingo	Ah, the great thing about PGP is that GPG 1.4x fork won	[07:20]
mircea_popescu	well, except for terrorist me, of course, in a piece about romania's 80s generation. but that's besides the point.	[07:20]
BingoBoingo	nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you." << My brother the dentist does if you get him drunk.	[07:20]
decimation	yeah actually bitcoin is a great example of the link I posted yesterday, about technologies that should have been invented in the past but were not	[07:20]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo that's not happenstance. that shit will happen again and again because it happened for fundamental reasons.	[07:20]
mircea_popescu	stan's fork will win the bitcoin through the same interplay of the same cosmic forces.	[07:20]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: The problem I when he presents it is that not everyone wants to marry a large SJW, even if it means the dog you get in exchange is adorable	[07:21]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo larger problem : men don't generally get that they have the god fucking given right to say "fuck you and get lost"	[07:21]
mircea_popescu	"door's that way" and variations thereof.	[07:22]
asciilifeform	obligatory naggum: 'suppose you thought of the new millennium when you wrote your application back in 1972 -- not only wouldn't you be invited to the party, those who knew you had done it right from the start and who probably laughed at you at the time would positively hate you now, and they sure as hell wouldn't tell people about you. and the more stupid they are, the more important it would be to pretend tha	[07:22]
asciilifeform	t nobody was smart enough to see the next millennium coming.'	[07:22]
mircea_popescu	prolly because only trolls and terrorists do that or something.	[07:22]
BingoBoingo	Indeed. Yes dentist brother gets his $600 bezzel per working day, but youngest brother for some reason doesn't share dentist brother's deviance.	[07:22]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this millenium, nobody actually saw. perhaps an excusable oversight, but still ridoinculous.	[07:22]
mircea_popescu	bitcoin + pgp + foss would have been a much better alternative past than fucktarded "flower power"	[07:23]
joecool	!s dentist	[07:23]
assbot	45 results for 'dentist' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=dentist	[07:23]
decimation	indeed it makes RMS's retarded diatribes look more retarded	[07:24]
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BingoBoingo	Dentist brother is an absolute hoot around marine cousins though, with their memories of ship board dentistry	[07:24]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: But tis is the past!	[07:24]
mircea_popescu	decimation that passion could have served a smarter man better you know ?	[07:24]
mircea_popescu	anyway, no point crying over the mud-like stupidity of our parents.	[07:25]
mircea_popescu	fuck them, move on, plenty of time left in the future to do important shit.	[07:26]
BingoBoingo	The newest past was born in January 2013	[07:26]
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BingoBoingo	The TiDerps were slain, righteous had a path, and Bitcoin was cemented in the following months	[07:27]
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scoopbot	New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/	[07:38]
BingoBoingo	^ ISIL Coin	[07:39]
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mircea_popescu	http://jim.com/ << the page of the author of the prev quote, one James A. Donald	[07:41]
assbot	James's Liberty file collection index	[07:41]
mircea_popescu	(with http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/reign.html )	[07:42]
assbot	James A. Donald's Reign of Error \| Anarchist Writers	[07:42]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all	[07:43]
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gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 393.93, vol: 48451.68950503 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 387.0, vol: 27136.32982 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 392.0, vol: 133267.08674263 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 393.05, vol: 44.95610677 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.424576, vol: 602246.15620000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 76.28428452 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.52026, vol: 218.25432093 \| Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)	[07:44]
BingoBoingo	I wonder how long the Chinese will suffer Buterin's Waterfall before forcing a showdown on the matter of STFUSA	[07:45]
BingoBoingo	Nao just feels so much like 11/12	[07:47]
BingoBoingo	Or when Nixon banished the rest of the press corps so he could talk to Hunter S. Thompson about football	[07:48]
asciilifeform	http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f14/Volume%201%20NNSA.pdf << mega-turd. i don't expect that anyone will read it. but i did. and will relate, how obscenely it brags about the extraordinary bezzle of the u.s. 'national ignition facility'	[07:49]
asciilifeform	where, for no reason that has ever been publicly explained, laser-initiated fusion is diddled	[07:49]
asciilifeform	to no result, as far as is known, ever, at any point	[07:50]
asciilifeform	real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing.	[07:50]
BingoBoingo	How many cover pages do they need	[07:50]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: to cut to the chase, grep for 'ignition'	[07:51]
asciilifeform	incidentally, this document is a fine example of the kind of stereotypically-bureaucratic style of writing usg runs on.	[07:52]
asciilifeform	almost a 'newspeak'	[07:52]
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BingoBoingo	!up u00	[07:54]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71422 @ 0.00044167 = 31.545 BTC [-]	[08:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8778 @ 0.00044497 = 3.9059 BTC [+]	[08:03]
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BingoBoingo	!up dgeats	[08:05]
*	assbot gives voice to dgeats	[08:05]
dgeats	ty	[08:05]
dgeats	;;eregister dgeats 1A76 4B0F 58BF 87CB C03D 5A4E A6D2 72BC 41B0 824A	[08:05]
gribble	Error: '1A76' is not a valid GPG key id. Please use the long form 16 digit key id.	[08:05]
dgeats	;;eregister dgeats A6D272BC41B0824A	[08:06]
gribble	Error: Could not retrieve your key from keyserver. Either it isn't there, or it is invalid.	[08:06]
BingoBoingo	Ah	[08:09]
BingoBoingo	The perils of the first time	[08:09]
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BingoBoingo	!up bagels7	[08:12]
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dgeats	BingoBoingo I feel like I’m putting my private keys and passwords EVERYWHERE	[08:12]
dgeats	aren’t they supposed to be private!!?	[08:13]
BingoBoingo	dgeats: PM, I'll halp troubleshoot to a point, but yes. Private keys stay private. If one of those strings you entered is a private key... Generate a new keypair.	[08:13]
dgeats	dude I’ve been trying for over a week	[08:13]
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BingoBoingo	dgeats: PM, I'll walk you through.	[08:14]
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BingoBoingo	;;ticker	[08:19]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 392.06, Best ask: 392.95, Bid-ask spread: 0.89000, Last trade: 392.95, 24 hour volume: 48213.33310422, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.170513306	[08:19]
dgeats	In the WoT I’m in the WoT hello bitcoin-assets!!!	[08:23]
BingoBoingo	;;ident dgeats	[08:23]
gribble	Nick 'dgeats', with hostmask 'dgeats!~user@173.219.118.98', is not identified.	[08:23]
BingoBoingo	Edward James Almost?	[08:23]
dgeats	dammit!	[08:23]
dgeats	ok I’ll go back to lurking	[08:24]
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BingoBoingo	dgeats: No, finish your fucking registration. You needed help, help is offered, get this shit over with while someone has patience.	[08:26]
BingoBoingo	!up tryphe	[08:26]
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dgeats	I’m definitely still trying searching through my open tabs on where to start	[08:27]
BingoBoingo	!up vexual	[08:27]
BingoBoingo	dgeats: Well, you could always ask vexual	[08:27]
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BingoBoingo	!up Vexual	[08:27]
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RagnarDanneskjol	http://www.contravex.com/2014/09/23/please-to-pgp-guide-for-linux-os-x-windows/	[08:28]
dgeats	Vexual is this a PM?	[08:28]
assbot	Please To PGP (Guide for Linux, OS X, Windows) \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski	[08:28]
BingoBoingo	dgeats: This is main channel	[08:28]
dgeats	familiar with that page	[08:29]
dgeats	so I’m going to go to the GPG Keychain again and get another pair of keys?	[08:29]
BingoBoingo	dgeats: Are you familiar with http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/pgpgpg-guide/	[08:31]
assbot	PGP/GPG Guide \| Bingo Blog	[08:31]
BingoBoingo	And http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication	[08:31]
assbot	GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki	[08:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26011 @ 0.00043228 = 11.244 BTC [-]	[08:32]
dgeats	BingoBoingo Not as familiar with your blog, I’ll read through it	[08:35]
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BingoBoingo	!up dgeats	[08:36]
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BingoBoingo	!up RetroUpriser	[08:43]
*	assbot gives voice to RetroUpriser	[08:43]
BingoBoingo	!up bagels7	[08:43]
*	assbot gives voice to bagels7	[08:43]
RetroUpriser	Hello	[08:43]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker	[08:43]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 394.63, Best ask: 394.99, Bid-ask spread: 0.36000, Last trade: 393.77, 24 hour volume: 48234.83273786, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.033997412	[08:43]
BingoBoingo	Hallo	[08:43]
RetroUpriser	Is there a market for overnight shipping of raw milk?	[08:44]
RetroUpriser	Its only legal to buy in CT	[08:44]
Vexual	I reckon	[08:44]
RetroUpriser	and for, ahem, generous donations, id be willing to send some raw milk	[08:44]
Vexual	plenty of hipsters	[08:44]
Vexual	what whats CT? kentucky?	[08:45]
BingoBoingo	RetroUpriser: I'm not a big fan of Brucellosis	[08:45]
BingoBoingo	Vexual: CT is connecticut	[08:45]
Vexual	oh	[08:46]
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BingoBoingo	!up CheckDavid	[08:46]
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BingoBoingo	!up Ginux	[08:47]
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thestringpuller	Hartford, CT my birthplace	[08:47]
BingoBoingo	The number of Homo genus members that acquires Brucellosis in Brucellosis free states amuses me	[08:47]
RetroUpriser	Anyone getting Brucellosis in a Brucellosis free state should be funny	[08:48]
BingoBoingo	Happens more often than you might suspect	[08:49]
Vexual	is it bad?	[08:50]
BingoBoingo	Vexual: Can be very bad	[08:50]
RetroUpriser	If you have no access to modern medicine	[08:51]
BingoBoingo	RetroUpriser: Even if. The responsible bacteria produces a good number of toxis so an antibiotic killing it creates a peak exposure to those during treatment	[08:52]
RetroUpriser	And i wouldnt say raw milk is the #1 way to contract it	[08:52]
BingoBoingo	Far from it, raw milk and beastiality are the only real ways to contract it	[08:53]
RetroUpriser	Which wont cause much damage unless your a pregnant woman	[08:53]
RetroUpriser	undercooked meat i'd say.	[08:53]
BingoBoingo	Oh, Brucellosis mostly kills peds patients	[08:53]
RetroUpriser	You should just avoid low quality food products.	[08:53]
RetroUpriser	in general.	[08:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38850 @ 0.00044708 = 17.3691 BTC [+] {2}	[08:53]
BingoBoingo	Indeed	[08:54]
RetroUpriser	But in the same sense, avoid all natural probiotic foods because they could be contaminated with harmful bacteria?	[08:54]
Vexual	raw milk is used for some cheeses perhaps?	[08:54]
RetroUpriser	No doubt, but so is pasturized milk.	[08:54]
BingoBoingo	Well the thing is something cultured with the right stuff doesn't give the wrong stuff the chance to live and you can tell by smell. It's why cheese and yogurt are safe but raw milk is a highway to the dangerzone	[08:55]
RetroUpriser	But no more than eating a medium rare steak from the cow producing it	[08:56]
Vexual	I have half a recolection that some chesse recipies prefer raw	[08:56]
RetroUpriser	But yeah the good bacteria will fight the bad	[08:56]
BingoBoingo	RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight	[08:56]
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RetroUpriser	So you'd think but i'm sure that isn't the case alot of the time	[08:57]
BingoBoingo	On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit	[08:58]
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RetroUpriser	Would you smell it in the raw milk?	[08:58]
BingoBoingo	In raw milk you often can't smell it.	[08:58]
RetroUpriser	Right, im sure there are alot of cases where meat could be infected and not show the slightest sign of it	[08:58]
BingoBoingo	Which is why if the milk was raw yu want it in already fermented products where either dangerous smells would be stronger or the product wouldn't appear right. Milk itself is dangerous though.	[08:59]
RetroUpriser	Bottom line is that you shouldn't expose yourself to unclean products when you know they are of shady origin. But when you have a local farm that you can check out and see its sanitary conditions yourself.. it takes alot of the risk out of the picture.	[08:59]
BingoBoingo	Meat usually isn't so bad because there's less vulnerable surface area than milk	[09:00]
RetroUpriser	I suppose, but im a huge fan so the risk < reward	[09:00]
BingoBoingo	In milk generally all of the protein and fat globules contribute to surface area	[09:00]
RetroUpriser	I mean, i wouldn't be drinking raw milk from walmart brand cows	[09:01]
BingoBoingo	I mean the surface is better defined by... solidity	[09:01]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform: real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing. <<< what sense does that make ?	[09:25]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo they don't have endemic brucellosis in the us anymore do they ?!	[09:27]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Not in any animal herds, but somehow children still get it	[09:28]
mircea_popescu	maybe it's from the us weapons stockpile.	[09:29]
BingoBoingo	Basically for all of the expense and derping, USDA can't actually guarentee its own guarentees	[09:29]
mircea_popescu	that's a thing nixon is never remembered for, ending the biological warfare stockpiles.	[09:29]
mircea_popescu	hadn't he done so, you'd probably have heard spineless gonzalez, bharara et all argue for the legitimacy of their use.	[09:30]
mircea_popescu	anyway, romania is a few of the european states that never had it. along with, iirc, switzerland.	[09:31]
BingoBoingo	Last I heard, USia was spicing up 9-11 with bioweapons own goals	[09:32]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight << nah, most of the stuff youi can get that way you don't see.	[09:34]
mircea_popescu	trichinella is a fucking worm you still won't likely see it.	[09:34]
BingoBoingo	You see that more in pork than beef	[09:35]
mircea_popescu	sure.	[09:36]
mircea_popescu	beef is safer than most meats, but still. you dun see the stuff.	[09:36]
BingoBoingo	I mean the reason to avoid rare-ish ground beef is more sloppy meatcutters opening the colon than anything else	[09:37]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo: On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit <<< im pretty sure nobody milks unwashed anymore.	[09:38]
mircea_popescu	for decades now.	[09:38]
BingoBoingo	You would think so, but in USia it isn't possible to pay enoug for a farmhand who cares to	[09:39]
BingoBoingo	I mean over here we grow fucking Dent corn for the sugar and actual sweet corn as a table vegetable	[09:40]
mircea_popescu	look at that, nif claims it actually went energy-positive last year	[09:40]
mircea_popescu	i had nfi.	[09:40]
*	BingoBoingo is enjoying the Sauds playing their version of Buterin's waterfall atm	[09:41]
*	BingoBoingo hasn't seen gas this cheap since 2010.	[09:43]
BingoBoingo	Not regularly this cheap pre-2009 in some years	[09:44]
BingoBoingo	Though winter of 2009 was beautiful with sub $2 per gallon gasoline.	[09:44]
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mircea_popescu	how much is it now ?	[09:46]
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BingoBoingo	$2.69	[09:47]
mircea_popescu	http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/192126-lockheed-says-itll-make-a-truck-sized-fusion-reactor-within-10-years << and from the bold claims department...	[09:47]
assbot	Lockheed says it’ll make a truck-sized fusion reactor within 10 years \| ExtremeTech	[09:47]
mircea_popescu	he reduced size — just 10 feet by 7 feet — will allow Lockheed to “design, build, and test the CFR in less than a year.”	[09:48]
mircea_popescu	how the fuck is a miniaturized version easier is beyond me.	[09:48]
BingoBoingo	I guess fuckups are easier to insure on a smaller reactor?	[09:49]
BingoBoingo	!up Vexual	[09:50]
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BingoBoingo	Vexual: Y u no blog yet???	[09:50]
mircea_popescu	http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191754-cold-fusion-reactor-verified-by-third-party-researchers-seems-to-have-1-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline	[09:50]
assbot	Cold fusion reactor verified by third-party researchers, seems to have 1 million times the energy density of gasoline \| ExtremeTech	[09:50]
mircea_popescu	no shortage of bold claims it seesm	[09:50]
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BingoBoingo	Eh, might as well get the bold claims in now, before the whips come	[09:51]
mircea_popescu	something on the magnitude order of getting fusion to work is pretty much the only way out of the slump for teh west.	[09:53]
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BingoBoingo	Oh, but without fears of a Stalin, they only way to develop it requires insuring it.	[09:54]
mircea_popescu	maybe.	[09:55]
mircea_popescu	lots of free money may help there.	[09:55]
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BingoBoingo	Only for so much longer	[09:56]
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Vexual	I wonder how small they can go if smaller is easier	[09:57]
Vexual	oh, it says	[09:58]
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BingoBoingo	!up jacoblyles	[10:00]
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Vexual	BingoBoingo: Vexual: Y u no blog yet??? kalyhost stole my moeneyz	[10:06]
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BingoBoingo	!up dgeats	[10:18]
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Vexual	still parsing the history of pgp	[10:19]
BingoBoingo	Ah	[10:19]
Vexual	i guess	[10:19]
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BingoBoingo	!up Vexual	[10:20]
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BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all	[10:22]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 392.43, vol: 48264.10238920 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 385.95, vol: 24858.0845 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 393.49, vol: 115673.95376961 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 403.87, vol: 39.1832539 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.973731, vol: 599526.01520000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 70.24819212 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.322256, vol: 174.64115222 \| Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)	[10:22]
BingoBoingo	Oh, the Chinese lead the drop tonight	[10:23]
BingoBoingo	https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin << lol	[10:24]
assbot	Auroracoin	[10:24]
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BingoBoingo	!up bagels7	[10:31]
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mircea_popescu	https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin/comments/2icorq/what_killed_auroracoin/ << lolok.	[10:36]
assbot	What killed Auroracoin? : auroracoin	[10:36]
mircea_popescu	and since we're doing the internet sewer, https://bitcointa.lk/threads/definitive-proof-that-satoshi-nakamoto-is-james-a-donald.320588/	[10:36]
assbot	Definitive proof that Satoshi Nakamoto is James A. Donald. \| Bitcointa.lk	[10:36]
dgeats	;;gettrust dgeats	[10:37]
gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask dgeats!~user@173.219.118.98. Trust relationship from user dgeats to user dgeats: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=dgeats&dest=dgeats \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=dgeats \| Rated since: never	[10:37]
Vexual	woot	[10:37]
dgeats	sup b-a	[10:37]
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BingoBoingo	Whatever happened to Sir Reginald GreyhawK?	[10:38]
mircea_popescu	nothing much.	[10:39]
mircea_popescu	his cover being inadvertently blown, he retired.	[10:39]
Vexual	what happened with your hitler portait?	[10:39]
BingoBoingo	On that note it's bedtime and MP's BitBet penny sports bet nightmare is over.	[10:41]
Vexual	what's your story dgeats?	[10:42]
dgeats	I know nothing about computers and I’m 31 y/o	[10:43]
mircea_popescu	so what do you do ?	[10:44]
dgeats	I sell real estate	[10:44]
dgeats	I’m a “REALTOR”	[10:44]
BingoBoingo	Wait, so the FBI lives in your butt?	[10:44]
dgeats	wouldn’t take it from such jerks	[10:45]
BingoBoingo	Or is that just-Tor	[10:45]
dgeats	no kidding	[10:46]
mircea_popescu	where ?	[10:46]
dgeats	all very new to me	[10:46]
dgeats	tor browsers and irc everything	[10:46]
mircea_popescu	no i mean, realtor where.	[10:46]
dgeats	Humboldt County, CA ;)	[10:46]
dgeats	for real though	[10:46]
dgeats	been here for the past 10 years or so	[10:47]
dgeats	about a week into the logs, lots and lots to catch up on	[10:47]
mircea_popescu	;;rate dgeats 1 CA realtor, he says.	[10:48]
gribble	Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user dgeats has been recorded.	[10:48]
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Vexual	thats almost bens neck of the woods	[10:49]
mircea_popescu	dgeats pm assbot !up	[10:49]
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dgeats	in real estate not by accident, it’s still a major part of the economy	[10:51]
cazalla	wonder if 8chan mystery donator is in here	[10:51]
dgeats	I wonder what property rights are like in Romania	[10:51]
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mircea_popescu	dgeats they are bizarre at best.	[10:52]
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dgeats	not “a bundle of rights” like in the states?	[10:53]
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mircea_popescu	i wrote a little about the nuttery of it, back in romanian days. lemme see if i can find it.	[10:54]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00044062 = 6.1246 BTC [-]	[10:56]
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mircea_popescu	http://pastebin.com/AgUhmsB1	[10:57]
assbot	http://trilema.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/ http://trilema.com/2 - Pastebin.com	[10:57]
mircea_popescu	apparently i wrote a lot.	[10:57]
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dgeats	hmmm can’t make it out ha ha	[10:59]
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mircea_popescu	:p	[11:00]
mircea_popescu	remains an enigma	[11:00]
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dgeats	wow you actually did write about real estate in Romania	[11:02]
mircea_popescu	well yeah ?	[11:03]
Naphex	ttp://trilema.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/	[11:03]
Naphex	damn right click pastes :)	[11:03]
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Naphex	hi o/.	[11:03]
mircea_popescu	;)	[11:03]
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Naphex	https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2m6rp7/hitbtc_about_to_go_mt_gox/	[11:04]
Naphex	that exchange smelled hell fishy from day #1 wtf	[11:04]
Naphex	also exchanges are hard to run, idiots should stop trying	[11:04]
punkman	!s hitbtc	[11:08]
assbot	15 results for 'hitbtc' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=hitbtc	[11:08]
punkman	did they even have any customers?	[11:08]
mircea_popescu	Naphex im sure "customers" and "experts" will both listen to your #1 and #2 above, yeah.	[11:09]
mircea_popescu	they tend to read and understand, it's what they do. not like "why should i even bother with the wot" an' stuff.	[11:09]
Naphex	wot or any due dilligance	[11:10]
Naphex	punkman: they sure had lots of fake volume	[11:10]
mircea_popescu	or any thinking.	[11:11]
Naphex	mircea_popescu: BTCXchange offered SSL Authenticated with GlobalSign.EU, the registration certificate was posted. And all due dilligance info posted	[11:11]
Naphex	yet then people go well 'Romania!'	[11:12]
mircea_popescu	yeah, see, you should have had "real brick and mortar stores" in cyprus.	[11:12]
punkman	Naphex, could have been worse, good thing you aren't Nigerian	[11:12]
mircea_popescu	much better than europe's highest per capita gold reserve country o.O	[11:12]
Naphex	punkman: :))	[11:12]
Naphex	also lots of eshops going up with btcxpay for btc->ron https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855469.0	[11:14]
assbot	Magazine online care acceptă bitcoin prin serviciul de plată BTCXpay.ro	[11:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79650 @ 0.00043202 = 34.4104 BTC [-] {2}	[11:17]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34000 @ 0.00044201 = 15.0283 BTC [+] {2}	[11:36]
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punkman	nubbins`: so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the at eof << it's not really, just doesn't care for anything outside the first and last dash of a gpg message	[11:44]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00043076 = 30.304 BTC [-] {2}	[11:53]
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mircea_popescu	heh.	[12:06]
mircea_popescu	no scoopbot huh	[12:06]
mircea_popescu	http://esr.ibiblio.org/ << shit, ers had a blog ?	[12:08]
mircea_popescu	all these years ?!	[12:08]
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mircea_popescu	http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too.	[12:13]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1666 @ 0.0012 = 1.9992 BTC	[12:20]
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mircea_popescu	!up pirateoftheapes	[12:30]
-assbot-	You voiced pirateoftheapes for 30 minutes.	[12:30]
*	assbot gives voice to pirateoftheapes	[12:30]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45116 @ 0.00044343 = 20.0058 BTC [+] {2}	[12:30]
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*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[20:35]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[20:35]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[20:35]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[20:35]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo yeah im sure lol.	[20:36]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17600 @ 0.00043048 = 7.5764 BTC [-]	[20:40]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56300 @ 0.00043043 = 24.2332 BTC [-] {2}	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal	[20:47]
assbot	Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal	[20:47]
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xanthyos	i wish they showed the equation	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	dailykos, it doesn't do equations, they're racist.	[20:50]
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BingoBoingo	Nice work MP	[20:51]
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mircea_popescu	http://www.catb.org/~esr/aim/ < i dunno if this lulz was here.	[20:52]
assbot	Page not found – ibiblio	[20:52]
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mircea_popescu	cazalla: so.. is qntra down for others? << uh i just looked at it.	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/ << lawl.	[20:55]
assbot	Bitcoin-Trader.Biz - Insolvent - CryptoCoinsNews	[20:55]
mats_cd03	funny how there's no mention of USD being worth <0.1% of BTC if it goes to 1mn BTCUSD	[20:56]
mircea_popescu	how you reason ?	[20:56]
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asciilifeform	http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1344589/54989752#c16 << extra lulzy	[20:59]
assbot	Daily Kos :: Comments: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal	[20:59]
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mircea_popescu	jurov: what does he want from aussies? <<< russia needs military bases overseas like kim kardashian needs horsecock.	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	Bitcoin software does not appear to be vetted to such an extend. << the english-t to d migration is soooo indicative of a native romanian speaker you can't imagine.	[21:01]
asciilifeform	and u.s. illiterates.	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	is it ?	[21:02]
asciilifeform	aha.	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	i've not commonly seen it outside of ro hack-kiddies speaking english	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	or for that matter, my own output lol.	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	davout: disabling all CSS would be fine << he has a point there, just de-css-ify it for mobile, will be fine.	[21:04]
asciilifeform	i've probably crapped out every conceivable kind of mistake (when hammering in real time. text that i get to read again before broadcast - another matter)	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	most mobile platforms have spent more money on making their thing work on unstyled websites than we ever will on qntra.	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform just about, as one gets tired stuff starts to mutate.	[21:04]
asciilifeform	fingers - will of their own.	[21:04]
asciilifeform	http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/notation-as-a-tool-for-thought-wavelets-in-j << for aficionados of peculiar programming systems	[21:05]
assbot	Notation as a tool for thought: Wavelets in J \| Locklin on science	[21:05]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: I gave the viewport tag one last tweak, next step is yeah, just denying mobiles any styling at all beyond what they bring on their own	[21:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48277 @ 0.00043473 = 20.9875 BTC [+] {2}	[21:07]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform just between you and me and nobody else : i very much doubt the average j user actually has the mental acumen to correctly understand the actual effects of recursive transforms available to them, wavelets or no wavelets.	[21:07]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: lol! you know actual 'j' users?!	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	you think coders are bad, just wait till you see mathematicians apply automated processes to statistical samples.	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	a few...	[21:08]
asciilifeform	not confusing with 'r' ?	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	well no	[21:09]
*	asciilifeform must have slept through the re-appearance of 'j'	[21:09]
mircea_popescu	as far as i can see, it's the common step away from excel	[21:10]
asciilifeform	i wanted a book on 'j' 5 or so years ago, had to go to a library with spy camera.	[21:10]
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mircea_popescu	once people crash their system trying to load 1mn cells for the 1kth time	[21:10]
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asciilifeform	around here, the 'common step away from excel' is 'r'.	[21:10]
asciilifeform	(open-source statistical gizmo, vaguely reminiscent of 'octave')	[21:11]
mircea_popescu	does it work on windows ?	[21:11]
asciilifeform	afaik yes.	[21:11]
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mircea_popescu	apparently. well then i dunno.	[21:12]
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mircea_popescu	jurov: http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again <<< it does, esp the week view. o.O look at that.	[21:15]
assbot	CoinBr Live S.MPOE	[21:15]
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BingoBoingo	http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/an-open-letter-to-jason-king-of-seans-outpost	[21:16]
assbot	An Open Letter to Jason King of Seans Outpost \| Lets Talk Bitcoin	[21:16]
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mircea_popescu	who;s this guy again ?	[21:17]
asciilifeform	'This sort of illogic is rampant in debates about cold fusion, particularly when experts respond to irritating, unwelcome suggestions made by amateurs. They start out cautioning the amateur that instruments such as calorimeters have a margin of error, and calorimeters frequently malfunction with leaking cooling fluid and other problems. When the expert senses the message is not getting through, and the amateur	[21:19]
asciilifeform	still believes that cold fusion calorimetry indicates real excess heat, the frustrated expert may resort to extreme, untenable claims, such as a statement that no calorimeter has an error less than 10%, when in fact the error margin for top-quality conventional instruments is on the order of 0.1%. Or he may wave his hands and say calorimeters are so undependable that you cannot run one for more than a few days	[21:19]
asciilifeform	without recalibrating, when in fact a good one will run reliably for months.' ( http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf )	[21:19]
asciilifeform	^ very interestingly perverse comparison of the 'titanic' aftermath and that of 'cold fusion'	[21:19]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: The homeless bitcoin camp	[21:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this is true tho. you familiar witrh playing pokler at all ?	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo oh oh. mkay.	[21:20]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: on the vary basic level.	[21:20]
asciilifeform	*very	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	do you know what meta coincepts are, like "playing loose" or "tight" ?	[21:20]
asciilifeform	aha	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	now, thinking obviously has nothing to do with poker	[21:20]
asciilifeform	although 'tilt' might be the more relevant pokerism	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	persuasion, however, is exactly that, poker reskinned.	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	the most significant error of judgement made by experts as far as i've seen yet is	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	when confronted with an inept player they loosen up their game	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	this is so idiotic as to defy sufficient expression.	[21:21]
asciilifeform	almost as if they were living creatures trying to conserve energy or something	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	the #1 reason it is idiotic is that the inept player may actually and usually does notice the loosening, and takes this as a honest signal that the expert is bluffing	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	on the, bluffs here, bluffs everywhere heuristic	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	the #2 reason it is idiotic is that discussion has remanence, poker hands do not. expert 30 years in has a fucking string of noted down examples of having done this, people with an ideologic interest can use to strangle him with	[21:22]
asciilifeform	aha.	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	this is something a politician is keenly aware of, but since the expert's brain actually functions, he's no politician.	[21:23]
asciilifeform	the linked article is at least partly about this.	[21:23]
asciilifeform	see also james randi's notes on how physicists are easily fooled by methods that fool not one stage magician	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	yup.	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	"gotta play the audience" means exactly that.	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	being a physicist doesn't make one immune, only diffusion makes one immune.	[21:24]
asciilifeform	robert wood was probably the one notable exception to this blindness.	[21:24]
asciilifeform	was an unambiguous master of both magics.	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	i suppose this also wraps right back up into wavelets lol.	[21:24]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform he was an engineer.	[21:24]
asciilifeform	;;google robert wood n-rays	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	this is the definition of an engineer.	[21:25]
gribble	N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Robert W. Wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: ; Blondlot and N-rays - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com:	[21:25]
asciilifeform	wood was a proper, full-bore polymath.	[21:25]
asciilifeform	which, i suppose, includes engineering.	[21:25]
asciilifeform	'If it ever becomes generally known that cold fusion is real, how will the scientists who opposed it react? A few may take responsibility and go down with the ship, retiring from academic life. I hope that most will regret their actions, and try to prevent such a thing from occurring again. Some will react the way Lightoller did, blaming Pons and Fleischmann. They may say the traditions and customs of science a	[21:29]
asciilifeform	re more important than experimental results. Lightoller, in effect, put traditions and customs ahead of the lives of passengers. To him, “the experience of years” and “what we have always done” outweighed all practical suggestions as to what we might do instead, to avoid killing thousands of people.'	[21:29]
asciilifeform	story time. i don't personally have any truck with fusion, cold or not;	[21:30]
asciilifeform	but the phenomenon described above is entirely the root of the al schwartz equivalence principle violation experiment	[21:30]
asciilifeform	or rather, lack of experiment, because the entire sub-field formed a 'solid blue wall' against herr schwartz	[21:30]
asciilifeform	for the reason stated in the 'titanic' article.	[21:31]
asciilifeform	modern-day physicists want a demonstrable equivalence principle violation the way they want horsecock.	[21:33]
asciilifeform	or bullet in head.	[21:33]
BingoBoingo	http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/11230144/Twitter-rated-as-junk-by-SandP-shares-drop-5pc.html	[21:35]
assbot	Twitter rated as 'junk' by S&P, shares drop 5pc - Telegraph	[21:35]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i diun get it, who would be opposed to cold fusion and why ?	[21:36]
asciilifeform	the folks who built careers on (promise of) the 'hot' variety.	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	los_pantalones can i buy any ws puts off you btw ?	[21:36]
asciilifeform	(just one example)	[21:36]
mircea_popescu	i guess...	[21:36]
asciilifeform	under the bezzle, there is very little profit in solutions.	[21:36]
los_pantalones	ha, TWTR put ?	[21:36]
asciilifeform	in prolonging agony - quite a bit.	[21:37]
los_pantalones	why don't you list stuff like that on mpex ?	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	i dunno, maybe im unbecomingly naive, but to my eyes cold fusion working is an event of such magnitude, it'd trigger an Auld Lang Syne moment.	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	los_pantalones well for lack of a mm actually.	[21:37]
los_pantalones	hmm	[21:37]
mircea_popescu	ifsomeone wanted to manage a portofolio of ws shortness for btc, it'd prolly rock.	[21:37]
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mircea_popescu	!up cypherc	[21:38]
-assbot-	You voiced cypherc for 30 minutes.	[21:38]
*	assbot gives voice to cypherc	[21:38]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: try to picture how bitcoin would have been treated, even in the embryonic stage, if the implications for the next xxx years from it, were entirely obvious to all.	[21:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59788 @ 0.00043289 = 25.8816 BTC [-] {2}	[21:38]
mats_cd03	;;calc calc [ticker --last]/(10**6)	[21:39]
gribble	Error: invalid syntax (, line 1)	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	maybe.	[21:39]
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mats_cd03	;;calc [ticker --last]/(10**6)	[21:39]
gribble	0.00039599	[21:39]
asciilifeform	auld lang syne, lol.	[21:39]
mircea_popescu	except free enerngy is quite unlike bitcoin.	[21:39]
asciilifeform	horst wessel lied.	[21:39]
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mats_cd03	mircea_popescu: to rephrase, the dollar would have lost 99.99% of its value on the trip to 1mn BTCUSD	[21:40]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03 only ~50%.	[21:40]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, seriously, cold fusion would actually make the "local production" stuff that link earlier was harping about a reality.	[21:44]
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asciilifeform	would make many things.	[21:44]
asciilifeform	e.g., laser pistol.	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	it's the one card out that could save teh current usg / societal structure.	[21:45]
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mircea_popescu	i can't imagine anyone'd manage to supress it if it could work.	[21:45]
asciilifeform	quite a few of the ancient science-fictional machines of early 20th c. imagination.	[21:45]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this is why i mentioned schwartz example.	[21:45]
asciilifeform	very often, 'works' is like early lisp machine.	[21:46]
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asciilifeform	unwieldy, ruinously expensive, terrible ROI.	[21:46]
asciilifeform	faraday's 'what use is a baby.'	[21:46]
asciilifeform	baby - can kill with one hand.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	i dunno.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	maybe.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	Lightoller is a particularly bad example, by the way.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	his decisions were correct on the deck.	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	a ship is sinking is undisputably the worst time to be going out doing "research".	[21:47]
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mircea_popescu	the fundamntal understanding of this is illustrated by the case made for giving people tenure and shit. research is an activity of the safe, which is why prisons and other emperor of the flies situations aren't conducive to proving the fermat conjecture.	[21:47]
asciilifeform	well, yes	[21:48]
asciilifeform	author of linked piece takes issue with l's conduct pre-sinking.	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	when a ship is sinking, the officer is to do EXACTLY what's done.	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	ah like that.	[21:48]
mircea_popescu	mebbe.	[21:48]
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asciilifeform	see pg. 9.	[21:49]
asciilifeform	'C: What I want to suggest to you is that it was recklessness, utter recklessness, in view of the conditions	[21:49]
asciilifeform	which you have described as abnormal, and in view of the knowledge you had from various sources that	[21:49]
asciilifeform	ice was in your immediate vicinity, to proceed at 21.5 knots.	[21:49]
asciilifeform	L: Then all I can say is that recklessness applies to practically every commander and every ship crossing	[21:49]
asciilifeform	the Atlantic Ocean.'	[21:49]
asciilifeform	he's essentially sticking to the 'flondor defence.'	[21:49]
asciilifeform	'everybody did it.'	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	i don't think they understood ice will crush the ship, tbh.	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	they thought they had built the lenin	[21:50]
asciilifeform	curious why mr. l did not say this, then.	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	why do you think lol.	[21:50]
asciilifeform	the 'uncrushable' thing was more of a marketing literature, tbh	[21:50]
asciilifeform	folks who actually made their living on ships, knew better.	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	let me model why : if i'm in that situation and you ask me that, i'ma in typical style go "wel lfrankly, i didn't believe that ice can crush steel. sue me."	[21:50]
mircea_popescu	so they'd hang me.	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	that means either i don't have kids or my kids don't do so well.	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile, l goes "well...derp"	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	did they hang him ?	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	so therefore!	[21:51]
asciilifeform	'nobody ever got hanged for buying ibm stock.'	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	maybe they knew better, hard to know what individuals knew or thought. but imo, they honestl ybelieved ice is now butter, because forward britannia!	[21:51]
Adlai	!s isis currency	[21:52]
assbot	2 results for 'isis currency' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=isis+currency	[21:52]
asciilifeform	speaking of ice...	[21:53]
asciilifeform	http://news.yahoo.com/nations-last-big-icebreaker-endures-despite-age-214106918.html	[21:53]
BingoBoingo	Adlai: been qntra'd http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/	[21:53]
Adlai	^^ this is fantastically unrelated to bitcoin	[21:53]
assbot	Nation's last big icebreaker endures despite age - Yahoo News	[21:53]
assbot	ISIS Introduces Coins \| Qntra.net	[21:53]
Adlai	this is about as related to bitcoin as it would be if south sudan were to mint its own pound... oh wait, they did. where's qntra on that?	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	Adlai terrorism. one degree of separation.	[21:54]
Adlai	ok, i'll admit, isiscoin serves to attract investment capital away from bitcoin, and acts as a potentially stabler store of value for dollar-averse wealth	[21:55]
Adlai	let's short bitcoin!	[21:55]
BingoBoingo	Well, a lot of the problems Bitcoin solves aren't relevant to ISIS	[21:56]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform btw, that boer war fort thing ? lol!	[21:56]
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asciilifeform	wai wat	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	lightoller, back during his time in the navy, was on a ship visiting south africa during the boer war	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	got out in the night, put the boer flag on the local fort, filled a cannon with a blank shot and a long fuse and well...	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	gave the locals a start.	[21:58]
asciilifeform	ahaha	[21:59]
Adlai	BingoBoingo: "and the later is simply for hire" << what's "the later"?	[22:00]
BingoBoingo	Adlai: The professional Derps	[22:00]
BingoBoingo	People who enjoy Buterin's waterfall	[22:01]
BingoBoingo	ALong with the sort of marketing shill who just wants a check and will endorse any idiocy	[22:02]
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BingoBoingo	;;bc,stats	[22:06]
gribble	Current Blocks: 330024 \| Current Difficulty: 39603666252.418 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 330623 \| Next Difficulty In: 599 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 45 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: 40043955200.5 \| Estimated Percent Change: 1.11174	[22:06]
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Adlai	!s cryptolocker usg	[22:11]
assbot	1 results for 'cryptolocker usg' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=cryptolocker+usg	[22:11]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-07-2014#756099 << who's to say that isn't cryptolocker itself?	[22:12]
assbot	Logged on 15-07-2014 02:55:38; asciilifeform: 'swamp donkey' << lol! apparently a usg version of 'cryptolocker'	[22:12]
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asciilifeform	Adlai: you must remember, we have not yet escalated to 'full throttle.'	[22:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88400 @ 0.00042788 = 37.8246 BTC [-] {3}	[22:20]
asciilifeform	Adlai: there will come the day when winblows users dumb enough to run hotwallet will find their coin magicked away.	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	this has been reported sporadically since 2012	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	iirc that's when the first windows wallet stealer trojan was reported.	[22:21]
asciilifeform	Adlai: but today is not that day. and when it comes, it will be coated in enough parallel construction to kill a herd of elephants.	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	back then it was a big deal, wallets being unencrypted.	[22:21]
Adlai	ssh, you're leaking ideas to the fbi agents on the line	[22:21]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: speaking not of wallet stealing trojan, but of 'xxxx coin wandered off with no plausible explanation, forensic showed nothing untoward'	[22:21]
asciilifeform	i.e. winblows is the ultimate trojan per se.	[22:22]
Adlai	how can you vanish coins without leaving a forensic trail?	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	i dunno how win forensics work	[22:22]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: when anyone bothers - very laboriously, largely manually-cranked.	[22:22]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: a skilled turdmeister (especially of the privvy-to-microshit-remote-orifice variety) will leave nothing to find.	[22:23]
mircea_popescu	so then there's nothing remarkable here.	[22:23]
Adlai	also, a skilled thief would target other stacks after/while people start leaving the brokenest one	[22:23]
asciilifeform	well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse.	[22:23]
asciilifeform	i inevitably picture a hunter, trying to avoid 'spooking' the birds	[22:24]
asciilifeform	inching closer, wants to bag more than one.	[22:24]
asciilifeform	i predict that when the hunter 'shoots', it will be 'spun' to look like a 'protocol' (or even crypto) break, of one kind or another	[22:25]
asciilifeform	with the inevitable shitgnome 'fixes' brought out	[22:26]
asciilifeform	while lies, of the 'false flag' variety, may not be the only tool in the buggers' toolbox - it is certainly their favourite. and perhaps the sharpest.	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse. <<< reddit is not, contrary to what it tells itself, relevant to bitcoin	[22:28]
mircea_popescu	99% of bitcoin users, according to what people think, use windows.	[22:28]
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mircea_popescu	99% of bitcoin belongs to the remaining 1%	[22:28]
asciilifeform	if only winblows were confined to some magical reddit kingdom, where all stupid folks live.	[22:28]
mircea_popescu	in short, there's a very deep valley between "windows user who thinks himself into bitcoin because he recognises the term" and "bitcoin user".	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform jeffidiocy manages to keep idiots with benefits away from bitcoin altogether.	[22:29]
*	asciilifeform has no data on the present state of the btc musical chairs landscape and cannot say	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	i tell you, the anthropology of this thing has been an endless source of fascination to me	[22:29]
mircea_popescu	it's almost like watching a cell react in an infection, all sorts of bizarro mechanisms that you don't even dare declare exist seem to work in werido ways.	[22:29]
asciilifeform	likely - we will get to watch (or, feel on skin...) all of the available mechanisms.	[22:30]
mircea_popescu	maybe. doubt it.	[22:30]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: jeffidiocy << there we go. herr lightoller's, too.	[22:32]
asciilifeform	'best practices of the sea.'	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	yeah, but see that it actually "serves", depending how you put the goals on the table	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	anyway, to quote a bronx tale :	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	Come over here. Sit next to me. You must be pretty upset after the Yankees lost.	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	Bill Mazeroski, I hate him. He made Mickey Mantle cry. The papers said the Mick cried.	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	Mickey Mantle? That's what you're upset about? Mantle makes $ a year. How much does your father make?	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	I don't know.	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	You don't know. If your dad needs money, go ask Mickey Mantle. See what happens. Mickey Mantle don't care about you. Why care about him? Nobody cares.	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	the way people today construct their mental representations of groups and belonging is nothing short of mindblowing.	[22:37]
mircea_popescu	i mean, it used to be the case for children. but biological adults today are psychologically infantile, and this is by very far the most obvious effect.	[22:37]
xanthyos	it's tribal imprinting	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	what's that mean ?	[22:38]
asciilifeform	xanthyos: actual 'tribal' dynamics are 2-way.	[22:38]
xanthyos	without strong tribes or famlies to take these cues from they'll seek it elsewhere	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	at least in our classical understanding thereof.	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	xanthyos the bizarre part is that they somehow manage to seek it in imagination.	[22:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41253 @ 0.00042986 = 17.733 BTC [+] {2}	[22:38]
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mircea_popescu	pretty much the only tech left that works in the english speaking world is the tech that manipulates this at first view pathological "one way belonging" thing.	[22:39]
mircea_popescu	i guess we could call it "marketing" for lack of terminology.	[22:39]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/ << amusingly enough, it's mostly NOT government issue.	[22:40]
assbot	“You’re the guy who wasn’t good enough to sling dope.” pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[22:40]
mircea_popescu	in fact, the usg seems moreover its prey than anything.	[22:40]
xanthyos	i've seen a video of a duck nursing from a cat because its own mother was gone.	[22:41]
asciilifeform	duck!?!?!	[22:41]
asciilifeform	!b 2	[22:41]
assbot	Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/11ARGS0.txt )	[22:41]
*	asciilifeform goes out to shop for duck milk	[22:41]
xanthyos	if you can convince your customer that you can literally breastfeed them they'll trust you forever	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform how do you think they make duck tape ?	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	polymerized duck galactose.	[22:42]
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xanthyos	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqTHhdCQko	[22:42]
assbot	Cat nurses Ducklings - YouTube	[22:42]
*	asciilifeform remembers very fine soviet chocolates 'bird's milk'	[22:42]
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mircea_popescu	romania has "chicken milk", http://www.culinar.ro/retete/dulciuri/creme/lapte-de-pasare-iese-sigur/46/2/6925/	[22:42]
assbot	Lapte de pasare (iese sigur) - Culinar.ro	[22:42]
xanthyos	it's sad when they actually seek out mickey mantle to get reciprocation though	[22:43]
undata	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo << the "need to belong"	[22:43]
assbot	Juggalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[22:43]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this may actually be the very same filling as in 'bird's milk'	[22:43]
mircea_popescu	prolly.	[22:44]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D1%8C%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE_(%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F)	[22:44]
assbot	Птичье молоко (кулинария) — Википедия	[22:44]
mats_cd03	http://thestack.com/chakravarty-tor-traffic-analysis-141114 via /.	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	lol your percentile language	[22:45]
asciilifeform	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptasie_mleczko << apparently englisch exists	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	ow shit that LOOKS like excellent chocolate.	[22:45]
assbot	Ptasie mleczko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	exactly the right sheen. damn you stanislav!	[22:45]
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asciilifeform	incidentally i get these in usa. though no idea for how much longer.	[22:45]
asciilifeform	afaik poroshenko runs the factory.	[22:45]
undata	the juggalo thing is a bizarre example of marketing turning into some weird semblance of a 2-way belonging	[22:46]
asciilifeform	(or perhaps not. i do know he's corralled a good fraction of the 'russian' confections business)	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	;;ud juggalo	[22:46]
gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=juggalo \| juggalo. For the most part, an uneducated, pathetic excuse for a human being who listens to the group ICP who are bold enough to actually consider themselves ...	[22:46]
undata	mircea_popescu: american white trash who literally dress like clowns	[22:47]
TomServo	Here's a comical introduction to Juggalos for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulGaxBPk2jI&list=UUfR7gRIYmZbGjhhrRJCwpmw	[22:47]
assbot	Joe Goes JUGGALO - YouTube	[22:47]
undata	they apparently have a whole religion	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	some sort of insane clown o nm that's what icp means huh	[22:47]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03: iirc the method was published before, some months ago	[22:48]
TomServo	they follow icp, yes	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	sorta glam-punk offshot thing	[22:48]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03: made no major splash, for some reason	[22:48]
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asciilifeform	mats_cd03: traffic analysis is easy, cheap, fun. consider analogy of the children's game 'sea battle.'	[22:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32839 @ 0.00042556 = 13.975 BTC [-] {2}	[22:49]
mircea_popescu	dude, topless chicks being a big deal, you already know you must be in ameristan	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	im not even sure whats more ridiculous, the rednecks or the mainstream.	[22:50]
asciilifeform	or how one might determine the electrical circuits in an old house (by unscrewing breakers at random)	[22:50]
cazalla	mircea_popescu: cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal <<< great and informative article!	[22:50]
assbot	Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	cazalla lol they di what they can	[22:51]
mats_cd03	asciilifeform: i'm surprised it took this long. its been alive. what. 10+ years?	[22:53]
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mats_cd03	not the doing of the analysis, but dissemination of results	[22:53]
asciilifeform	mats_cd03: they print now, not wishing to risk obsolescence	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	mats_cd03 it didn't take this long, that tor was routinely compromised was an open secret.	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	course, when i said so last year the derps went on derping, but why would the derps count here.	[22:54]
*	asciilifeform found it very surprising that tor survived as a going concern after 'heartbleed'	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform something tells me i won't be getting the "mp's blog, first place to announce tor is shit, a year or so ago" all over the "tech" "press". just like i didn't get the "mp forces wikileaks to release unedited cables by publishing the romanian subset" a few years back	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	because why report, right, there's all these fucktards that need to wonder "what mainstream nobody agrees with mp", as if that's the fucking criteria nao, we vote for knowledge.	[22:56]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-06-2014#700916	[22:57]
assbot	Logged on 04-06-2014 00:08:26; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the buggers' traditional defense is to pretend that the event was a non-event - or, if this is impractical, to continue living in an imaginary world where they 'scooped' the story first, and all of the 'unsanctioned' discussion never happened.	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	myeah. and this matters, because the non-wot world is like, totally a world and anything, and what happens outside of b-a ctually happens, and non-notarized documents actually carry weight and everything	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	trust teh power of dreamz!	[22:57]
asciilifeform	'we have always been at war with [east\|eur]asia.'	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	anyway, this is the best of all worlds, tbh. i'd get really pissy in short order if reddit actually knew what's what	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	and i couldn't get out of bed without 5000 "hey mp, what do you think of this toaster" "is bitcoin going up i must know because of my 0.05 btcent investment!"	[22:59]
asciilifeform	reddit, as i understand, is a world of 'class 3' learners - 'must piss on electric fence himself'	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	if this is true, how did they come to the conclusion women dislike being raped ?	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	not that it's false, but they're not women. so... how ?	[22:59]
asciilifeform	not clear that these folks have an actual take on the subject. parroting usg religion - yes.	[23:00]
mircea_popescu	that's learning no ?	[23:00]
asciilifeform	but on the subject of, e.g., tor, they have both words and deeds.	[23:01]
asciilifeform	and will end up learning from the electric fence.	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	very much doubt it.	[23:01]
asciilifeform	are, in fact, already being taught by it	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	imo, they're 4th level learners. will not learn from thought ; nor from other	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	s experience, nor from their own.	[23:01]
asciilifeform	'the hunchback will be straightened by his grave.'	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	will ONLY learn from fiction, inasmuch as they find a way to link it to their own fiction.	[23:01]
*	assbot gives voice to nubbins`	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	basically, to teach a muppet something you must construct a literary work which jives with the preexisting dreamworld he inhabits	[23:02]
nubbins`	closed encounters of the 4th kind	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	which is how they all "learned" all about mordor.	[23:02]
asciilifeform	it does happen that 'fanons' conflict, though.	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	they don't know how to compute whether x option ios better than y option in any situation, but they do know you don't just walk into mordor	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	of course it does, but so ? energy states in a semiconductor also conflict, in the abstract	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	what's that do for any cell ?	[23:03]
asciilifeform	somebody had an essay on 'knowledge vs. suggestively-named strings'	[23:04]
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mircea_popescu	where ?	[23:04]
asciilifeform	http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~alexs/classes/2011_Spring_585X/readings/02_Principles/AI_Meets_Natural_Stupidity.pdf	[23:04]
asciilifeform	ancient scan.	[23:05]
asciilifeform	not readily deturdifiable.	[23:05]
asciilifeform	but is an iconic cult-classic (mcdermott, 1976)	[23:05]
mircea_popescu	lmao the title promises	[23:06]
asciilifeform	it's an epic paper, that not merely rained but pissed on the exuberant 'ai' parade of the '70s academe.	[23:06]
nubbins`	skim milk is rotten	[23:06]
nubbins`	it's fucking grey	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	ew	[23:07]
asciilifeform	'programs to a great degree are problems rather than solutions. If a researcher tries to write an "understanding" program, it isn't because he has thought of a better way of implementing this well-understood task, but because he thinks he can come closer to writing the implementation. If he calls the main loop of his program "UNDERSTAND ', he is (until proven innocent) merely begging the question. He may mislea	[23:08]
asciilifeform	d a lot of people, most prominently himself, and enrage a lot of others.'	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	lol	[23:10]
asciilifeform	weizenbaum, author of iconic 'eliza', also understood how little a mechanism really needs to 'understand' in order to give an idiot the illusion of 'understanding.'	[23:12]
asciilifeform	(not related to above, but a contemporary)	[23:12]
mircea_popescu	'It follows that he cannot know that certain people at certain times do not understand in Parry-or Eliza-like ways. That is to say, he has no way of knowing that we do not ourselves sometimes function by means of "clever tricks".' actually, i will go as far as to say that it is always certainly the case understanding happens through "clever tricks"	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	it is NEVER the case anyone ever understood anything whatsoever in any case at any point in human history	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	[self]delusion to the contrary notwithstanding.	[23:13]
asciilifeform	he is thinking of another variety of clever tricks.	[23:13]
asciilifeform	the mechanized stage magic of eliza	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	is he ?	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	that's exactly what i mean.	[23:13]
asciilifeform	i'd have to disagree that 'understand' is a null-word.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	go right ahead, but what else do you bring ?	[23:14]
asciilifeform	people have never been seen to, e.g., rotate themselves in 4th d. and end up rechiralled. but they do occasionally understand things.	[23:14]
asciilifeform	at least, beyond 'eliza' level.	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	let us not discuss this in terms of understanding, something we care about. let us instead discuss in terms of love, something we don't care about.	[23:15]
asciilifeform	?	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	so : your idea of understanding would be in fact "transformative love". ie, it'd give you the ability to turn, if not marble into virgin, at least whore into housewife.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	dja think this was ever displayed ?	[23:16]
*	asciilifeform must confess he is rather puzzled at this point	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	whyssat ?	[23:16]
asciilifeform	well, if i had to give an example of 'understanding', involving 'transformation', i'd offer the transformation of pebbles on a beach (original 'calculation') into well, calculation, and mathematics, and, ..., nukes.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	nah.	[23:18]
asciilifeform	wide net, but somewhere in it there flops a fish, 'understanding'	[23:18]
undata	one of you is using understand in a much stricter sense than the other.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	the sort of understanding you propose is a relationship between mind and object that's transcendental. the ready comparison is the supposed transcendental relation between man and woman.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	outside of this, all that's left is eliza-understanding.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	and, obviously, fucking. ie, a manipulation of the subject according to the rules of the reality it inhabits.	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	what eliza does, what no strings attached sex is.	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	if you recognise a naive romanticism in one field, the other should also be obvious.	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	all women are whores and all thinkers are eliza.	[23:19]
asciilifeform	all microscopes are hammers.	[23:20]
nubbins`	all scarves are farts	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	the ability of whores to distinguish themselves from "those cheap streetwalkers" is not that important globally.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	having more to do with ego and stress than anything	[23:20]
undata	"modeling is by definition incomplete" ?	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	undata if you will. asciilifeform yes, essentially, which is why the microscope hammer thing never persuaded me.	[23:21]
*	asciilifeform is firmly persuaded that every microscope is a hammer. however, not every hammer is a microscope, demonstrably. and therein lies the boojum.	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	not every hammer is a microscope TO YOU	[23:22]
mircea_popescu	not every whore is a partner you'd entertain, but that has little to do with the principles involved.	[23:22]
asciilifeform	the principle involved, i must confess, escapes me	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	let's approach on a different tack.	[23:23]
asciilifeform	and i'm not altogether certain that i'd profit from grasping it	[23:23]
mircea_popescu	what is the method through which i could write software that distinguishes between actual science and global-warming-science ?	[23:23]
asciilifeform	even the elixir of distinguishing cat from dog by mechanical means, so far escapes programmers.	[23:24]
asciilifeform	who would even dare to ask about sciences.	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	well, the reason might be that there couldn't be such a thing. there's nothing that makes "good science" better than a pile of shanonized papers.	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	you can test them, of course, but this is practically speaking aesthetics.	[23:25]
asciilifeform	aha i see where this is going.	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	so, yeah. all thinkers are eliza, the distinguishing among elizas, like among whores, purely an application of one's own aesthetic preference.	[23:25]
nubbins`	no true eliza would offer such an argument	[23:26]
asciilifeform	'don't worry, sizzling in electric chair, ohm's law is a lie'	[23:26]
asciilifeform	the difference between the flesh before and after, 'aesthetic preference'	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform are you a current dreaming it's frying a butterfgly etc	[23:26]
nubbins`	and somewhere, somewhen, the sound of keys clacking on a keyboard was heard	[23:26]
asciilifeform	l0l	[23:26]
nubbins`	ha	[23:26]
undata	"gravity" holds the moon to the earth	[23:27]
nubbins`	_/ -_- _/	[23:27]
mircea_popescu	undata the argument mind, isn't that some eliza-trees don't make much better looking reality-clothes than others.	[23:27]
mircea_popescu	the argument is whether they're actually different.	[23:27]
mircea_popescu	if one function returns rnd(0,15) and the other rnd(20,42) it is easy to establish which returns the larger number,	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	but that doesn't mean they're not the same damned function.	[23:28]
*	gernika has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)	[23:28]
asciilifeform	afaik western traditions of sophistry are not even the most die-hard adherents of this idea. in some variants of islam, they actually believe that 'if the circuit works, it was will of allah' and nothing more	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	and the brain is in no sense and to no degree a logic processing machine.	[23:28]
nubbins`	<+mircea_popescu> the argument is whether they're actually different. <<< in the sense that each game of wol is actually different	[23:28]
asciilifeform	and today perhaps the allmighty favours ohm's law, tomorrow - not	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	nor, ironically, are actual logic processing machines all that intelligent.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	to us at least.	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	nubbins` quite.	[23:29]
asciilifeform	brain is logic machine like brick is flying machine.	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	pretty much yeah.	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	"it can be made to"	[23:29]
asciilifeform	in precisely that way.	[23:30]
undata	mircea_popescu: I'm still chewing on "different" how?	[23:30]
nubbins`	relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKrskPyBuI	[23:30]
assbot	TripTank - Stoned Ape Theory - YouTube	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	not that any of these subtle considerations have any sort of practical effect or importance,	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	but since the article spoke of "substance" in thought... well...	[23:30]
*	mnmx (2ea6baf9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.166.186.249) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:31]
mircea_popescu	there's no substance to thought.	[23:31]
undata	nubbins`: flashback to 19, tripping like hell, trying to find a firm thought to stand upon	[23:32]
asciilifeform	the idea in the article can (and has) been rephrased like this. if you remove all the 'suggestively-named strings' like 'understand' - and replace with 'gensyms' - e.g., 100324 - does the resulting machine still do or even appear to do anything of interest?	[23:32]
nubbins`	undata terrorizing realization that no such thing exists, etc	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform but my point is that this argument misses the very point of what thought is.	[23:32]
undata	nubbins`: I started laughing my ass off and gave up	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	that's what thought is, entirely, all the time : suggestively named strings.	[23:32]
asciilifeform	say, if it was able to distinguish cat from dog, and now operates an automated dogcatcher, prior to the renaming of strings, and still can - there was 'substance.'	[23:32]
mircea_popescu	to the code.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	ok, let me phrase it thus :	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	mp's lemma of artificial intelligence requires any computer program that exhibits in fact ai to depend in its functioning on the naming of its functions, and that self-metaprogramming be a part of its working.	[23:34]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: remember the self-evolving fpga?	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	ok, great example.	[23:35]
asciilifeform	the one where not a single thing about the circuit made sense to the human dissector	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	that thing IS intelligent, just like me and you and the dragonfly.	[23:35]
asciilifeform	but for the fact that it worked.	[23:35]
asciilifeform	where are the namings?	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	how would i know ?	[23:35]
asciilifeform	we might be speaking of different things then, re: 'names'	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	ok, let's re-rephrase :	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI.	[23:36]
asciilifeform	what 'ai and stupidity' was about, was an actual pestilence of pseudoscience, where folks convinced themselves and others that they were accomplishing 'great things' while really pulling each other's dicks in a most stultifying way	[23:36]
mircea_popescu	o for sure, im not even getting into the point of the article. i just went on a tangent for objection reasons, like i do.	[23:36]
asciilifeform	ahahaha.	[23:37]
*	undata tries to create an arbitrary symbol in his mind	[23:37]
asciilifeform	;;google gensym	[23:37]
gribble	Gensym \| Real-Time Management of Mission Critical Systems: ; Product \| Gensym: ; Gensym G2 2011 EDITIONS – Product Detail \| Gensym:	[23:37]
undata	Core dumped.	[23:37]
asciilifeform	damn, sp4mz0rs	[23:37]
asciilifeform	;;google gensym common lisp	[23:37]
gribble	GENSYMs - Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM): ; Macros: Defining Your Own - gigamonkeys: ; hygiene-versus-gensym - Community-Scheme-Wiki:	[23:37]
asciilifeform	^ best representation of the concept i know of	[23:38]
asciilifeform	creates a symbol with no meaning other than identity (cannot add, subtract it, it only has a name and the only permitted operation is determination of identity)	[23:38]
asciilifeform	and, well, assignment	[23:38]
undata	hm	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	i don't think that violates my restatement.	[23:39]
asciilifeform	it's a humble tool, no ai to it at all	[23:39]
asciilifeform	a 'nut' or 'bolt' that i use daily.	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	well yeah but if it did violate restatement then either i'm wrong or no ai can be made to run on lisp machine.	[23:40]
asciilifeform	(gensym) just coughs up a guaranteed-unique object.	[23:40]
*	dignork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	is this provable to actually work all the time ?	[23:40]
asciilifeform	until exhausted memory.	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	hm	[23:40]
asciilifeform	typically implemented using a counter	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	that smashes eventually no ?	[23:40]
asciilifeform	common lisp numeric tower is a bignum tower	[23:41]
*	dignork (~dignork@gateway/tor-sasl/dignork) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:41]
*	mircea_popescu ponders.	[23:41]
asciilifeform	so, in principle, if the machine were to do nothing but cough up 'gensyms' for a few millenia, you will exhaust memory.	[23:41]
asciilifeform	depending on how quickly you can increment	[23:41]
asciilifeform	(and how long machine lasts)	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	i superficially suspect this discussion proves there can never be turing ai.,	[23:42]
mircea_popescu	lisp machine being turing equivalent	[23:42]
asciilifeform	(of course, a gensym, if not garbage collected, also occupies a cell of memory)	[23:42]
asciilifeform	the 'super-turing' machine remains a mystical unicorn.	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	myeah	[23:43]
asciilifeform	not that it has been shown not to exist, but has about the same status as 'god'	[23:43]
asciilifeform	that is, a favourite preoccupation of crackpots of all stripes, and from the whole spectrum of scientific literacy - but no results.	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	well, the only way to build one may be to first build a planet, then let cnc evolve.	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	cns*	[23:44]
asciilifeform	what bothers me most is that most of the 'askers' have no idea what they actually want.	[23:45]
asciilifeform	(from a hypothetical 'ai')	[23:45]
asciilifeform	mechanical best friend?	[23:45]
*	devthedev (~devthedev@unaffiliated/devthedev) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:46]
mircea_popescu	a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house,	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	while no identifiable part of the code deals with housebuilding.	[23:47]
asciilifeform	not necessarily disputing the hypothesis - but why the preoccupation with non-identifiable parts?	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent.	[23:47]
asciilifeform	see, we can take this into a place you probably did not intend to go:	[23:48]
asciilifeform	consider 'langton's ant.'	[23:48]
mircea_popescu	lets see!	[23:48]
asciilifeform	http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LangtonsAnt.html	[23:48]
assbot	Langton's Ant -- from Wolfram MathWorld	[23:48]
asciilifeform	very simple rules (described on linked article)	[23:48]
asciilifeform	you can write him yourself and try.	[23:49]
mircea_popescu	see, that "intend to go" is exactly why the preoccupation with non identifiability.	[23:49]
mircea_popescu	fuckall cares what i intend.	[23:49]
asciilifeform	well think to the end.	[23:49]
nubbins`	<+mircea_popescu> if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent. <<< mis lados!!	[23:49]
asciilifeform	what we know is that everyone who ever tried langton's ant, notices that he always 'builds a road'	[23:49]
asciilifeform	no matter what is on the playing field at the beginning	[23:49]
asciilifeform	or what 'bombs' (to use 'war of life' terminology) you drop.	[23:49]
asciilifeform	sooner or later - he builds it.	[23:49]
asciilifeform	could be after thousands of moves.	[23:50]
mircea_popescu	okay.	[23:50]
asciilifeform	no one has proven anything, afaik, of substance, about whether the ant will always build the road.	[23:50]
asciilifeform	but experimentally no one has (yet) found counter-example.	[23:50]
mircea_popescu	so your argument is that ant meets my definition of ai ?	[23:50]
asciilifeform	well, that part.	[23:50]
asciilifeform	yes.	[23:50]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13889 @ 0.0004217 = 5.857 BTC [-]	[23:50]
mircea_popescu	how do you identify a highway as a house ?	[23:50]
asciilifeform	same way you identify a house as a house.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	say if you showed this process to 1k randomly selected 5 yos, would they say "it built itself a house" ?	[23:51]
asciilifeform	who am i to say that a repeating cycle of moves is not 'house' for the automaton.	[23:51]
nubbins`	^	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	to us.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	not to it. that's the point. to us.	[23:51]
asciilifeform	the way that my 4 walls are a repeating cycle of moves to me.	[23:51]
mircea_popescu	we have to recognise what it does.	[23:51]
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asciilifeform	this goes back to my complaint about the ai wishers. they aren't asking for 'intelligence', just a mechanical but recognizable version of themselves	[23:52]
asciilifeform	or, at least, what they think of as themselves.	[23:52]
mircea_popescu	well, this definition is, "when you recognise what's being done, but neither why nor how, you're confronted with intelligence"	[23:52]
undata	seems a lot that passes for human intelligence is driven by autonomous processes evolution carved into us, just like the ant	[23:53]
mircea_popescu	this is counterintuitive, because we're very ethnicallyclose, so to speak,	[23:53]
nubbins`	recognize is an overly broad term for this discussion	[23:53]
asciilifeform	or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet.	[23:53]
mircea_popescu	so we eliza-recognise what WE do on the grounds of culture and convention	[23:53]
mircea_popescu	when intelligences meet without that basis, superamazement ensues.	[23:53]
undata	when two of those ants hit each other, do they combine their "houses"?	[23:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, see, it's not a black box.	[23:54]
*	nubbins` recalls the (clarke?) short story about an intelligent electrical field	[23:54]
Adlai	excellent turminology, this! http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Turmite.html	[23:54]
assbot	Turmite -- from Wolfram MathWorld	[23:54]
asciilifeform	this is an ancient argument - 'the sea is very intelligent but we just aren't protocol compatible and can't see that it's even alive'	[23:54]
mircea_popescu	any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI. << this obviously requires you to be allowed under the hood.	[23:54]
asciilifeform	i have limited patience for it because of the sheer lack of predictive power.	[23:54]
mircea_popescu	otherwise windows is ai for crying out loud.	[23:55]
undata	nubbins`: Greg Egan did one with intelligent turbulence	[23:55]
nubbins`	asciilifeform unfortunately the sea won't be seen as alive until after it's dead D:	[23:55]
asciilifeform	undata: yes i recall that one. 'dust.'	[23:55]
mircea_popescu	well it all started with you asking for a definition of ai.	[23:55]
nubbins`	i recall reading a young adult novel about intelligent crystals	[23:55]
nubbins`	suspended in fluid iirc	[23:55]
nubbins`	one of those "my teacher is an alien" type ones	[23:55]
asciilifeform	undata: in fact, i recall that he had a character who is being marched to a mafia execution, and offered a magic pill before being shot. the pill wakes him up to the idea that his mind is already being simulated on a 'computer' made of space dust, somewhere, if only 'interpreted correctly'	[23:56]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922181 << so do you count an entire beehive/anthill as intelligent, but not any single member individually?	[23:56]
assbot	Logged on 14-11-2014 21:44:39; mircea_popescu: a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house,	[23:56]
mircea_popescu	Adlai yes, actually.	[23:56]
mircea_popescu	perhaps except for the queen, but that's an endless discussion.	[23:56]
*	assbot gives voice to ben_vulpes	[23:58]
*	u00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[23:58]
mircea_popescu	or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet. << incidentally, the brain seems to fit this quite exactly.	[23:59]
nubbins`	i know people claim that there's an upper bound on the complexity that can form in a cellular-automaton-type system with simple rules	[23:59]

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