Forum logs for 13 Oct 2013

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00085071 = 5.1043 BTC [+] [00:15]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.470099 BTC [+] [00:16]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.4190099 = 1.257 BTC [-] [00:24]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4828 @ 0.0008511 = 4.1091 BTC [+] {2} [00:39]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7364 @ 0.00085121 = 6.2683 BTC [+] {2} [00:51]
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ohhithere #bitcoin-OTC [00:52]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [SMG] 1099 @ 0.0001871 = 0.2056 BTC [-] [00:52]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 278 @ 0.00804121 = 2.2355 BTC [-] {13} [00:59]
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ohhithere gonna ban me from here too? do it. [01:01]
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kakobrekla have you been a naughty boy? [01:03]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 436 @ 0.00085122 = 0.3711 BTC [+] [01:23]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7527 @ 0.0008512 = 6.407 BTC [-] {3} [01:37]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 286 @ 0.0004 = 0.1144 BTC [+] [01:39]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.8552402 = 8.5524 BTC [-] {4} [01:40]
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* Now talking on #bitcoin-assets [12:38]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com || http://log.bitcoin-assets.com - most days worth reading || http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com - all days worth reading [12:38]
* Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Sun Sep 29 03:06:59 2013 [12:38]
mircea_popescu ;;diff [12:55]
gribble 1.8928124928103292E8 [12:55]
mircea_popescu ;;copumpkinprice [12:56]
gribble 300 USD/BTC [12:56]
pankkake ;;help copumpkinprice [12:59]
gribble (copumpkinprice ) -- Alias for "echo 300 USD/BTC". [12:59]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4288 @ 0.00084786 = 3.6356 BTC [+] {2} [13:02]
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mircea_popescu :p [13:05]
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dub ;;ticker --markets all [13:05]
gribble (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market |all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Mtgox. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a (1 more message) [13:05]
dub ;;ticker --market all [13:06]
gribble MtGox BTCUSD last: 143.10001, vol: 9767.85508379 | Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 127.97, vol: 7122.28147717 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 125.2, vol: 2854.25371 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 127.89, vol: 459.06856747 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 127.25, vol: 261.41486243 | Volume-weighted last average: 134.794206207 [13:06]
mircea_popescu ;;wrongulate 300 [13:06]
gribble 276.2198 [13:06]
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mircea_popescu http://bitbet.us/bet/555/difficulty-to-continue-increasing-by-over-20/ [13:09]
ozbot BitBet - Difficulty to continue increasing by over 20% [13:09]
mircea_popescu that's siome brave shit. [13:09]
mircea_popescu .d [13:09]
ozbot 189281249.28103 | Next Diff in 760 blocks | Estimated Change: 27.8181% in 3d 19h 22m 18s [13:09]
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jurov Well, assbot can kick gribble and not the other way around. [13:28]
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FabianB_ lol, but not in all channels :) [13:46]
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FabianB_ .d [13:50]
ozbot 189281249.28103 | Next Diff in 753 blocks | Estimated Change: 27.9538% in 3d 18h 24m 58s [13:50]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7350 @ 0.00085056 = 6.2516 BTC [+] {3} [14:02]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 107 @ 0.00722601 = 0.7732 BTC [-] {3} [14:03]
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turbo_ac100 ;;prevdiffchange [14:31]
gribble 27.18873 [14:31]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.BBET] 3800 @ 0.00050025 = 1.901 BTC [-] [14:45]
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dexX7 mircea_popescu: i saw the comparison of different exchanges you put on trilema in 2012. you stated explictily that mpex is unregistred. is there a specific reason, why "this is okay"? [14:56]
mircea_popescu they're all unregistered. [14:57]
mircea_popescu until such a time I move into the building vacated by the fiat ex-stock exchange, and until such a time I'm sitting on the policy panel deciding how stock exchanging works, this will remain the case. [14:57]
mircea_popescu we'll be registered once we take over, and we make the rules for registration. [14:58]
dexX7 ah i see [14:58]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6455 @ 0.00084756 = 5.471 BTC [-] {3} [15:36]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [XBOND] [PAID] 0.69348300 BTC to 1`386`966 shares, 50 satoshi per share [15:54]
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mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ [16:01]
ozbot How to airgap. A practical guide. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. [16:01]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 96 @ 0.00244 = 0.2342 BTC [+] [16:05]
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dexX7 http://threatpost.com/how-defeat-full-disk-encryption-one-minute-101909/72345 << this attack is super lame.. same as: "but what if the attacker installs a hardware keylogger?" [16:21]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6670 @ 0.00085318 = 5.6907 BTC [+] {3} [16:23]
dexX7 thus "full disk encryption ... that as of yet does not work" is somewhat incorrect imho. lame analogy: "passwords don't work, because you can install trojaner/keylogger" [16:24]
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dexX7 "gpp is broken and fail, because you can steal a private key" :p [16:33]
dexX7 *gpg [16:33]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.46879999 = 0.9376 BTC [+] {2} [16:51]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.00730166 = 0.219 BTC [-] {2} [17:04]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 87 @ 0.00247929 = 0.2157 BTC [+] {4} [17:06]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.0073 = 0.219 BTC [-] [17:08]
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nanotube aye, gpg is just as vulnerable to hardware keyloggers as full disk encryption. if that's your threat model, there's no reason to recommend one over the other. [17:18]
nanotube in the meantime, when using gpg on a per-file basis, that usually means decrypting and writing a file to disk in unencrypted form for editing. editing. then encrypting and wiping unencrypted. [17:18]
nanotube and you run into the "impossible to really delete stuff off modern disks" problem. [17:19]
nanotube whereas with full-disk encryption, you don't have to worry about that bit. [17:19]
nanotube but you know, nothing wrong with using both full disk encryption, /and/ an additional gpg-per-file layer for selected files. [17:19]
gecko_x2 there is speculation about intel's prng implementation and wether it's spiked [17:21]
gecko_x2 on the crypto mailing list [17:21]
gecko_x2 i urge anyone interested to follow that convo [17:21]
gecko_x2 also about ecc and if the NSA has been able to break some curves [17:21]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00085571 = 5.1343 BTC [+] {2} [17:22]
gecko_x2 there is good news however [17:23]
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gecko_x2 the NSA is not breaking strong crypto [17:23]
gecko_x2 just the endpoint security is so weak that they can do anything they like [17:24]
gecko_x2 they have specialized teams for every OS out there [17:24]
gecko_x2 called the 'Tailored Access Group' [17:24]
gecko_x2 another piece of good news is that they are not able to break TOR [17:25]
gecko_x2 all they can do is timing [17:25]
gecko_x2 timing the packets that leave your client to the packets that exit an tor exit node [17:25]
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carly_ which mailing list you mean gecko_x2 ? [17:29]
gecko_x2 well [17:30]
gecko_x2 you can start with the september thread: [17:30]
gecko_x2 http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/thread.html#17825 [17:30]
ozbot The cryptography September 2013 Archive by thread [17:30]
gecko_x2 be warned: your brain might explode. [17:30]
gecko_x2 "[Cryptography] Opening Discussion: Speculation on "BULLRUN" " [17:31]
gecko_x2 is the really interesting discussion [17:31]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1231 @ 0.00025999 = 0.32 BTC [-] [17:33]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8 BTC [+] [17:39]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 47 @ 0.86749786 = 40.7724 BTC [+] {6} [17:48]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.86879999 = 4.344 BTC [+] {2} [17:57]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.43088098 BTC [-] [19:14]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 102 @ 0.006 = 0.612 BTC [+] [19:19]
skinnkavaj http://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/1o3fdz/we_are_the_litecoin_dev_team_ama/ [19:20]
ozbot We are the Litecoin dev team: AMA : litecoin [19:20]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 48 @ 0.00699999 = 0.336 BTC [+] [19:30]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.45999987 = 0.92 BTC [+] [19:30]
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nubbins` hi [19:38]
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carly_ are there already some priviledged users who are able to get a beta acc for coinx? [19:45]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 156 @ 0.00725191 = 1.1313 BTC [-] {6} [19:47]
nanotube gecko_x2: yea, but one could avoid using the on-cpu rng. as to tor: would be even better if we had more nodes. there are only a total of 4k-ish. [19:48]
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carly_ does someone know here who is behind leetcoin? [19:51]
gecko_x2 nanotube yes very true, but the main point here really is that now ppl like us are thinking about these things actively, which was the main reason for snowden to ever do this [19:52]
gecko_x2 he recently stated in his moscow interview [19:52]
gecko_x2 a few days ago [19:52]
gecko_x2 that he was very satisfied with the reaction from the community [19:52]
gecko_x2 and i agree [19:52]
gecko_x2 the mere fact that we are now thinking about this stuff is gonna make life hell for the NSA going forward [19:53]
gecko_x2 snowden always said his biggest fear was that nothing would changew [19:53]
gecko_x2 and he doesn't have to fear anymore [19:53]
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gecko_x2 so his run was successful [19:54]
gecko_x2 give the community half a decade to implement stuff based on this intel, and the NSA will have built their ohio fascist data centre in vain [19:54]
gecko_x2 no matter how much water they use to cool down their boxes [19:54]
gecko_x2 they will still not break strong crypto [19:55]
gecko_x2 and endpoint security will evolve [19:55]
gecko_x2 err [19:55]
gecko_x2 sry.. utah.. not ohio :p [19:55]
nanotube gecko_x2: indeed. the information has served as a catalyst for thought and improvement. [19:57]
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gecko_x2 just wait until darknet arrives [20:03]
gecko_x2 the NSA will cry rivers of blood [20:03]
gecko_x2 noiste is the future here [20:03]
gecko_x2 noiseless steganography [20:04]
gecko_x2 you combine a noiste aware tcp/ip interfac with strong symmetric OTP crypto [20:05]
gecko_x2 and the NSA will be reduced to mere cockroaches which they are [20:05]
gecko_x2 OTP is a nightmare for the fascists [20:08]
gecko_x2 currently used mainly for online banking [20:08]
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gecko_x2 but it will spread to packet level eventually [20:08]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3100 @ 0.00084748 = 2.6272 BTC [-] {2} [20:08]
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chsados who runs bitbet.us here? [20:19]
kakobrekla chsados: mircea_popescu , unless you got cookies. [20:20]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 210 @ 0.00069714 = 0.1464 BTC [+] {2} [20:20]
chsados I have oatmeal rasin cookies right here next to me actually lol [20:21]
kakobrekla that works, whats up [20:21]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 280 @ 0.00076856 = 0.2152 BTC [+] {2} [20:22]
chsados kakobrekla: i keep getting rejected for a bet saying bad specs can I pm you and get help with pointers on wording it better with more specs? [20:24]
kakobrekla ah yeah i just saw your email [20:25]
chsados cool [20:25]
kakobrekla best to talk to mircea_popescu when he comes back [20:25]
chsados ok [20:25]
kakobrekla he will tell you whats works and what doesnt [20:25]
chsados ;;later tell mircea_popescu would you mind PMing me with wording a bet i have attempted to create twice with rejection status "need more specs" [20:26]
gribble The operation succeeded. [20:26]
kakobrekla :) [20:26]
chsados thx [20:26]
kakobrekla ill have that cookie now [20:26]
chsados will a scan work? [20:27]
kakobrekla i thought you shove it in the lcd real hard and it pops up here [20:27]
kakobrekla ah well ill get it next time. [20:27]
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kakobrekla hm [20:28]
nanotube gecko_x2: we have good tools now. problem is, [almost] nobody's using them. somehow i doubt this will change, regardless of how good our tools are. [20:28]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.86879998 = 4.344 BTC [-] {3} [20:29]
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kakobrekla the "i dont have a 3d printer" joke completley changed in last 10 years but its still funny [20:29]
chsados lol 1 sec kakobrekla [20:29]
chsados here you go http://i.imgur.com/6cYtpdP.jpg [20:30]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 80 @ 0.0025 = 0.2 BTC [+] [20:30]
kakobrekla lmao [20:30]
kakobrekla nobody else should even look at that url [20:30]
kakobrekla dont tuch mah cookies ya hear [20:30]
nubbins` so what's the bet? [20:31]
nubbins` i see someone plunked 1 BTC on "no" for havelock's US restrictions [20:31]
kakobrekla will the cookie crumble? [20:31]
kakobrekla ah that [20:31]
chsados the cookie is nice and moist :D [20:31]
nanotube haha why does that remind me of http://bash.org/?104052 [20:31]
kakobrekla bet on no it wont. [20:31]
kakobrekla lol [20:31]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 29 @ 0.0078 = 0.2262 BTC [+] [20:32]
nubbins` glad bash is still going strong [20:32]
kakobrekla is it? [20:33]
nubbins` well [20:33]
nubbins` still a website, at least [20:33]
kakobrekla if that is how you define going strong ... mkay [20:33]
nubbins` heh [20:33]
nubbins` labcoin, still going strong [20:33]
kakobrekla :DDD [20:33]
kakobrekla !b 5 [20:34]
assbot Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1415465/plain/) [20:34]
nubbins` silk road, still goi… wait [20:34]
kakobrekla now you are bashed while you are bashing bash [20:35]
kakobrekla http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com/?quote=7 [20:35]
ozbot #bitcoin-assets bash [20:35]
nubbins` there's a strong relationship between how tasty your coffee is, and how many beers you drank last night [20:35]
chsados my dog is like shaking and can barely walk.... i think he got into some ganja [20:38]
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nubbins` hm [20:43]
nubbins` i think "eskimobob" from btctalk has some major issues [20:43]
kakobrekla with what [20:44]
kakobrekla gypsy boiler room? [20:44]
kakobrekla or smth like dat [20:44]
nubbins` mental health [20:44]
kakobrekla ah that [20:44]
nubbins` specifically in that he fancies himself to be very clever and very wise [20:44]
nubbins` but is, in fact, neither [20:44]
kakobrekla i never say im good [20:45]
kakobrekla just that others suck [20:45]
kakobrekla [along side] [20:47]
nubbins` http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/active-kid-postage-stamps-yanked-over-safety-concerns-1.2021485 [20:48]
ozbot Active kid postage stamps yanked over safety concerns - World - CBC News [20:48]
nubbins` "One shows a young swimmer doing a cannonball into water. In another, a child is skateboarding wearing a helmet but no kneepads. In the third, a youngster is doing a headstand without a helmet." [20:48]
nubbins` a HEADSTAND without a fucking HELMET. [20:49]
nubbins` imagine! [20:49]
kakobrekla i think they forgot sarastaball? [20:49]
kakobrekla sarcastaball * [20:49]
nubbins` those stamps are pieces of shit anyway [20:49]
nubbins` what's with the random words [20:49]
nubbins` "pump high / swing" [20:49]
nubbins` "turn around / twist" [20:50]
nubbins` "hike up / climb"… y'know, hike up a fucking rope [20:50]
nubbins` and they all have "FOREVER" with a line crossing it out [20:50]
kakobrekla lol [20:51]
nubbins` the real news story is that the USPS decided to let some asshole design a set of stamps on his ipad [20:51]
kakobrekla he obv should use samsung tablet [20:51]
nubbins` lel yes [20:52]
nubbins` or blackberry playbook [20:52]
kakobrekla bb is so dead in yurop [20:53]
nubbins` and in canadia [20:54]
nubbins` wht a trainwreck of a company [20:54]
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jimbo_ bitfunder down [21:00]
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kakobrekla http://i.imgur.com/jgwRMJo.jpg [21:03]
nubbins` !! [21:04]
zoinky wont that graph look funny when the top 3 exchanges is BTCChina [21:07]
zoinky oh its USD exchanges. nevermind.. [21:07]
kakobrekla >there are NO trading fees on btcchina [21:10]
nubbins` how do they make money? [21:11]
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zoinky pretty sure 0 fees is promotional, right? [21:12]
kakobrekla prolly [21:12]
nubbins` would be neat to own some ¥ [21:13]
nubbins` ugh, i better get this day started. thanksgiving supper in an hour [21:20]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.00735 = 0.2205 BTC [-] [21:21]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 200 @ 0.00730005 = 1.46 BTC [-] {2} [22:13]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8688 BTC [+] [22:13]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 191 @ 0.00119 = 0.2273 BTC [-] [22:17]
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assbot [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1002 @ 0.00119507 = 1.1975 BTC [+] {3} [22:38]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 812 @ 0.0012 = 0.9744 BTC [+] {2} [22:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00084598 = 3.8492 BTC [-] [22:46]
mircea_popescu ;;later tell chsados sup [22:46]
gribble The operation succeeded. [22:46]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 359 @ 0.00119 = 0.4272 BTC [-] [22:54]
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mircea_popescu dexX7 not quite. passwords suck on http because http is stateless. that's true. [22:55]
mircea_popescu nanotube if i get your "full disk encrupted" pc i can full disk decrypt it. if i get your gpg'd stuff, good luck to me. [22:55]
dexX7 haha, i was just pulling out stupid examples to find something simliar to "full disk encryption sucks, because of attacks based on direct access to the hardware" [22:55]
mircea_popescu but that's the usecase man. full disk encryption is supposed to protect the data from physical access attacks. [22:56]
mircea_popescu if it fails to do that, it fails. [22:56]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.81000005 = 1.62 BTC [-] {2} [22:57]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2450 @ 0.00084544 = 2.0713 BTC [-] {2} [22:59]
dexX7 hm.. in that case you're right, but i'd assume the standard scenario is more like "bad guy sneaks into your house and steals your hdd" [22:59]
mircea_popescu right. [23:00]
mircea_popescu so what is this, "it's safe because bad guy is presumed stupid" ? [23:00]
mircea_popescu why not just use rot13 then [23:00]
dexX7 even a stupid guy can figure something out, if he's given enough time [23:01]
mircea_popescu nanotube and as to "use both" : the point of science, any science, is to isolate what works from what doesn't and exclude the latter. this is why dentist treats your teeth his way rather than recommending you "also use shaman method". [23:01]
dexX7 i'd like to know: why do you say single file encryption is preferred? [23:04]
mircea_popescu because should you obtain the encrypted file there's nothing you can do. [23:06]
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dexX7 same applies to "encrypted hard drive", so you already include "direct access attacks". i'll rephrase then: how is single file encryption more secure in a similar scenario? [23:08]
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chsados mircea_popescu you here? [23:09]
chsados ;;seen mircea_popescu [23:09]
gribble mircea_popescu was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 minutes and 53 seconds ago: because should you obtain the encrypted file there's nothing you can do. [23:09]
mircea_popescu yes. [23:09]
chsados may I pm you [23:09]
mircea_popescu please do. [23:09]
mircea_popescu dexX7 there are numerous different avenues to remove encryption from a full disk encryption schemes. [23:09]
mircea_popescu there aren't such for plain old pgp. [23:09]
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jurov nanotube if i get your "full disk encrupted" pc i can full disk decrypt it. << how so? [23:13]
jurov the chick yu linked to did not do that [23:13]
jurov she just modified the bootloader for next time you'll input passphrase [23:13]
jurov so the same attack can be applied to gpg [23:14]
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mircea_popescu jurov here's an 5 year old forum post going through the basics : http://forum.teamxbox.com/archive/index.php/t-617093.html [23:14]
nanotube mircea_popescu> nanotube if i get your "full disk encrupted" pc i can full disk decrypt it. if i get your gpg'd stuff, good luck to me. <- you are missing a crucial step. you don't just 'get my fde comp and got everything' [23:14]
nanotube you have to get it, modify it, then give it back to me, then get it again [23:14]
nanotube and if you do the same, you got my gpgd stuff just as well. [23:14]
mircea_popescu not at all. [23:15]
mircea_popescu i can just steal your key from the boot in a variety of different ways, also from recently powered down systems, [23:15]
mircea_popescu it's just nonsense. to be able to boot you will have to at some point trust the machine. that's all. [23:15]
mircea_popescu machine doesn't knwo you from me. [23:15]
nanotube the 'maid attack' that you link to [23:16]
mircea_popescu that's just one example. [23:16]
nanotube required the attacker to boot from usb, which modifies the bios/mbr to log pw. then you wait until i log on and snarf my pw [23:16]
nanotube you can't just 'steal my comp and have all my data' [23:16]
dub the latest link has thesame dependancy [23:16]
mircea_popescu yeah, actually, i can. [23:16]
nanotube mircea_popescu: got link to such attack? [23:17]
mircea_popescu ok, let's make it simple : do you agree that in order for your system to be safe it has to be powered down, whereas for gpg to be safe it doesn't have to be powered down ? [23:17]
jurov not [23:17]
nanotube not sure how aggressive gpg is in not storing your pw anywhere in memory. my /guess/ is that if you can take a memdump, you can get the gpg pw also. not sure though. [23:18]
mircea_popescu suppose i didn't touch gpg in the current session. [23:18]
Bunnyh suppose i didn't decrypt my disk in the current session? [23:18]
mircea_popescu how the hell are you going to boot an encrypted disk ? [23:19]
dub who says its booted? you're talking about completely different things tbh [23:19]
mircea_popescu basically, in the simplest of terms : fde requires key be available for the os at all times the disk is in use. [23:19]
mircea_popescu file level encryption makes a less burdensome requirement. [23:19]
mircea_popescu this alone is the end of the theoretical discussion. [23:20]
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dub sure, deploying fde and feeling safe in the manner of your average global megacorp security weeny is silly but that doesnt make it broken [23:20]
mircea_popescu without going into all the ways truecrypt is broken and etc, which i don't feel i have the energy for [23:20]
dexX7 yada yada.. i think you simply can't say "this one sucks, the other one is the way to go". [23:20]
mircea_popescu dexX7 except you can. [23:20]
mircea_popescu this is why you need experts : so they make definite statements in places where the common sense seems lost. [23:20]
dub that same weeny is probablt fine with accessing his pgp keys on an internet cafe kiosk [23:21]
mircea_popescu otherwise we're back to yadda yadfda, you can't say faith healing doesn't work. [23:21]
mircea_popescu dub well sure, but it still is a smaller burden. smaller burden wins. [23:21]
Bunnyh what's wrong with using fde when, say, developing software? would you rather have each of the thousands of files encrypted individually? [23:21]
dub well no [23:21]
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mircea_popescu Bunnyh i am not disputing it [23:21]
mircea_popescu 's convenient in some cases. you have to appreciate we were discussing a specific rthing, ie, making an airgapped machine. [23:22]
dub dexX7: he can say that, kinda like, climate science is bunk because someone said al gore made it up [23:22]
nanotube mircea_popescu: sure, if you didn't happen to use gpg in the session, you're fine. and actually, gpg could be 'really good' at not caching pw in memory, thanks to gpg-agent being purpose-built to handle thing securely. cf this paper: philosecurity.org/pubs/davidoff-clearmem-linux.pdf‎ [23:22]
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mircea_popescu nanotube yeah. [23:22]
nanotube but then also, how about an encrypted partition with your files? [23:23]
mircea_popescu ftr, im not saying fde will never work. it may eventually work. we're not there yet. [23:23]
mircea_popescu nanotube as long as it's not bootable, perhaps it can be well implemented. [23:23]
nanotube would be easier to use than individual file encryption. and you'd also only access it when you need. [23:23]
mircea_popescu rightj. the death of fde is the boot part rly. [23:23]
mircea_popescu otherwise, in good old unix fashion, a partition is a file anyway. [23:23]
nanotube the boot part protects against an important class of attacks. namely, stolen/lost hardware. [23:24]
mircea_popescu except it doesn't rly. it tries to. [23:24]
nanotube which, let's face it, is a much more common class of issue than "someone actively trying to snoop at your files" [23:24]
mircea_popescu so you steal a diskload of gpg files. what now ? [23:24]
dub its exactly the same thing [23:24]
nanotube your diskload also contains a bunch of stuff you didn't encrypt [23:24]
nanotube because you must take effort to encrypt every file. [23:24]
mircea_popescu i mean i get it, it's lazy cvasisecurity. grand. may work well in many cases. i don't want it in my airgapped machine. [23:25]
nanotube so maybe, your email inbox contains your email address, and your name, and various 'non-essential files' also reveal a lot of info about you. [23:25]
nanotube with fde, they get bupkus. [23:25]
mircea_popescu i got news for you [23:25]
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mircea_popescu if your email wasn't gpg'd its read long ago. [23:25]
jurov i mean, once someone is either able to reboot the machine without you knowing or freeze memory modules, it's pretty game over [23:25]
nanotube if your email was gpgd, your headers are still plain text. news for you? :) [23:25]
mircea_popescu jurov no, it's not. [23:26]
mircea_popescu nanotube nope. recall, im the guy using his real name in the bitcoin space. [23:26]
nanotube anyway, so my point is, it's good to have fde, to have easy 'blanket' protection against the common issue of accidental loss. and then you can use another layer such as gpg to protect the 'really important stuff' [23:27]
nanotube fde is not "zero benefit" [23:27]
nanotube though it's certainly "not as much benefit as we'd hope" [23:27]
jurov how not? if it's law enformcement, usually it's just sufficient to prove that you are owner of certain gpg key. [23:27]
nanotube which you are correct to bring up. [23:27]
mircea_popescu nanotube it's basically an antivirus product. it's good to have for your girlfriend, so it keeps the system sorta-above water. [23:28]
jurov then if you are unable to decrypt it, won't help you much [23:28]
mircea_popescu jurov i don't quite follow the logic there. [23:28]
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jurov the logic is, such an powerful adversary doesn't really need the data, they have them from other sources, just metadata are OK to use against you [23:29]
mircea_popescu i fail to see how this works. [23:30]
mircea_popescu "your honor, we know X talked to Y. therefore X did it" ? [23:30]
jurov even if X signed stuff with private key found on such piece of evidence [23:30]
jurov > [23:30]
jurov ? [23:30]
jurov now deny that [23:30]
mircea_popescu i deny. what ? [23:32]
mircea_popescu circumstantial evidence, of the weakest sort. i'll just point and laugh at you. [23:32]
jurov that you possess certain privkey on an purposely airgapped machine? [23:32]
jurov as evidenced by gpg --list-keys [23:32]
jurov without ever needing any passphrase [23:33]
mircea_popescu herp. the proof is that i keep secrets ? [23:33]
mircea_popescu what is this, england ? [23:33]
Bunnyh is it any easier to explain why have you encryped partitions but don't actually know what's in there? [23:33]
mircea_popescu Bunnyh in most free countries it's enough to say it's nobody;'s business what you kee pthere and the da can either make a case or get lost. [23:34]
mircea_popescu you're not making his case for him in any circumstance. [23:34]
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nanotube can we all just agree that there are multiple attack vectors, and different approaches provide varying protections against them? [23:34]
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dexX7 no, please continue [23:35]
Bunnyh i'd summarize this by saying that there are needs for different granularities in encrypting data [23:35]
mircea_popescu nanotube yes, we can. but we'll have to agree that while some things provide absolute protection against the attack vector, some other things provide partial protection. [23:35]
mircea_popescu they may be more convenient or profitable or w/e, but they're still qualitatively different. [23:35]
nanotube what's this "the attack vector" you speak of? haven't we agreed that there are multiple? :D [23:35]
jurov such as denying that attack vector exists "in any circumstance" mkay. [23:35]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.81 = 3.24 BTC [-] [23:36]
jurov it did exist here in eastern europe, just some 25 years ago [23:36]
nanotube mircea_popescu> Bunnyh in most free countries it's enough to say it's nobody;'s business what you kee pthere <- unfortunately there are countries that are not that free. [23:36]
jurov they would sencence you on such "evidence", no problem [23:36]
mircea_popescu we can agree that wearing a maillot is kinda like being dressed, except if it gets wet, or if it gets flashed or if there's a black light etc. [23:36]
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mircea_popescu jurov ostensibly they can just shoot you, too. hardly part of the discussion i guess. [23:39]
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Namworld So, no one is running a MPOE or BBET passthrough currently? Jurov, would you be willing to take my holders on coinbr? [23:39]
jurov Namworld: yes [23:40]
Namworld Havelock not accepting new assets and Bitfunder might not survive for much longer it seems. [23:40]
dexX7 Namworld: did hl state a proper reason? [23:41]
Namworld No proper reason [23:41]
Namworld Only thing I might keep alive is BTC-BOND, manually. Buyback every small holders, only keep large ones. [23:42]
assbot [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 92 @ 0.0012 = 0.1104 BTC [+] [23:43]
jurov Namworld: but if you keep that up for very last moment like you did things after mpex delisting, then i may be hard to speak to [23:43]
mircea_popescu re-reading the thing i gotta give it to dub... he kinda has good points. [23:43]
jurov Namworld: i like some planning [23:43]
Namworld Ok jurov, I guess I'll offer either buyback at 110% MPEx ask price or transfer to coinbr. I'll PM you. [23:45]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 900 @ 0.00084598 = 0.7614 BTC [+] [23:48]
mircea_popescu http://www.youtube.com/embed/edAxujKev1I [23:53]
ozbot The Chemical Worker's Song by Great Big Sea - YouTube [23:53]
jurov oh and the real reason why i don't get the issue with fde, is that you imply attackers have access to memory and that implies the machine was on or was shut down just minutes ago [23:55]
jurov now, who is going to keep airgapped machine always on? [23:55]
jurov and if the adversary can time their attack precisely, they can as well tranquilize you right after you typed gpg passphrase [23:56]
mircea_popescu again different windows. "computer being on" vs "that second right after he's typed a pw" [23:57]
jurov i admit that. but doesn't look very different to me [23:58]
mircea_popescu that's a problem of perspective, tho. [23:58]
mircea_popescu also, whole disk vs file that was being processed. also very different payoffs. [23:58]
mircea_popescu security is, in the end, the job of minimizing exposure. [23:58]
mircea_popescu there's a reason people engaged in fencing stand sideways. and they all do it, because even if awkawrd and lulzy a stance, it is more secure. [23:59]
dub wait wat countries can you refuse to decryopt something? [23:59]
mircea_popescu all of them. [23:59]
mircea_popescu it's in the end the test of whether it's a country. [23:59]
dub right so, none [23:59]
Category: Logs
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