Forum logs for 07 Sep 2014

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

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mod6	hahah	[00:21]
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mircea_popescu	;;bc,stats	[00:34]
gribble	Current Blocks: 319449 \| Current Difficulty: 2.7428630902257874E10 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 320543 \| Next Difficulty In: 1094 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 23 hours, 28 minutes, and 31 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: 29685874927.8 \| Estimated Percent Change: 8.22952	[00:34]
mircea_popescu	lol it just shaved a day in two hours.	[00:35]
decimation	;;tslb	[00:35]
gribble	Time since last block: 16 minutes and 8 seconds	[00:35]
mircea_popescu	kinda curious if the winter explosion takes us into e11 by new year's	[00:36]
decimation	!s winter explosion	[00:37]
assbot	0 results for 'winter explosion' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=winter+explosion	[00:37]
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mircea_popescu	decimation there's this tendency for hasing to go up significantly oct-nov-dec	[00:37]
decimation	the winklevii fund will open sometime around then as well, which might attract more usd into btc	[00:38]
mircea_popescu	that thing had been opening for > 1 year, and was going to matter imminently for about as long.	[00:39]
decimation	http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-15/spiderwoman-brings-hope-to-winklevoss-twins-bitcoin-etf.html	[00:39]
assbot	Spiderwoman Brings Hope to Winklevoss Twins Bitcoin ETF - Bloomberg	[00:40]
mircea_popescu	it's what the french call a marote	[00:40]
decimation	yeah that's a good point. there's not a bitbet on this point interestingly	[00:42]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.16999999 = 0.51 BTC [-] {2}	[00:56]
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decimation	http://www.governmentattic.org/12docs/FBI-USAF-AlaskastayBehindAgentProgram_1947-1954.pdf	[01:13]
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BingoBoingo	The punter tried to tackle: http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--E7xeAeZ1--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/zwp2p9imqfeieamtdgne.gif	[01:29]
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mircea_popescu	decimation there was. nobody cared.	[01:46]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo did that guy die ?	[01:47]
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BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Almost seems like it doesn't it.	[01:47]
mircea_popescu	yeah bad spinal curve	[01:48]
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BingoBoingo	Pretty sure he isn't the sort to have passed the lab component of any physics course	[01:48]
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mircea_popescu	!up dbit	[01:54]
-assbot-	You voiced dbit for 30 minutes.	[01:54]
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asciilifeform	lol! '5. Agents should not have been members of the armed forces of the United States nor employees of the United States Government. 6. Agents should be chosen from those persons who will not be logical internees of the enemy.'	[02:06]
asciilifeform	compare with:	[02:06]
asciilifeform	'A portrait of an ideal agent for spetsnaz emerges something like this: a man of between fifty-five and sixty-five years of age who has never served in the army, never had access to secret documents, does not carry or own a weapon, knows nothing about hand-to-hand fighting, does not possess any secret equipment and doesn't support the Comunists, does not read the newspapers, was never in the Soviet Union and has	[02:06]
asciilifeform	never met any Soviet citizens, leads a lonely, introspective life, far from other people, and is by profession a forester, fisherman, lighthouse-keeper, security guard or railwayman. In many cases such an agent will be a physical invalid.'	[02:06]
asciilifeform	(suvorov's classical 'spetsnaz' - http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/08.html)	[02:07]
assbot	--	[02:07]
mircea_popescu	as much wank.	[02:10]
mircea_popescu	the notion that anything like the present usg survives not defeat in the field, but merely an unfavourable if momentary turn of events is pushing it into sf.	[02:11]
asciilifeform	document concerns usg circa 1947-1954.	[02:11]
asciilifeform	(linked by decimation)	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	diff story.	[02:11]
mircea_popescu	something tells me relatively l;ittle has changed tho	[02:12]
mircea_popescu	prolly a lot more usability, but little fundamental revision	[02:12]
asciilifeform	lol, lusability	[02:13]
asciilifeform	'All Soviet interrogations are based on the assumptions that: (1) all prisoners are liars; (2) most Westerners can be bought; (3) those who cannot be bought can be broken; and (4) the process of breaking the prisoner can be continued as long as necessary to acquire the desired information.'	[02:16]
*	asciilifeform can picture the sheer machinist-grade squareness of the bricks these folks were shitting	[02:17]
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asciilifeform	'The rules of grammar are many and precise and the person who speaks Eskimo cannot make any ambiguous statements.' << really now.	[02:20]
*	asciilifeform has seen this said about more than one obscure natural language, it always seems to be a reflection of the linguist's ineptitude, in practice.	[02:21]
BingoBoingo	Or their ego being unable to accept that their research subjects might be making jokes about them in front of their face	[02:23]
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asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: by now i'd imagine that assumption is SOP. but we're dealing with a vintage piece here.	[02:24]
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asciilifeform	although, margaret mead already got pwned in samoa long before...	[02:25]
asciilifeform	though again - joke not 'offically' exposed until '80s	[02:26]
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nubbins`	wtf is "Eskimo"	[02:35]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: linked document (military manual) suggests a type of pidgin, which it claims can be understood in much of alaska and northeastern ussr	[02:36]
asciilifeform	and refers to it as 'eskimo.'	[02:36]
nubbins`	interesting	[02:36]
nubbins`	the word eskimo is seen as derogatory in canada these days, you don't really see it in print anymore	[02:36]
cazalla	https://www.youtube.com/v/7ljvEKOMElY state dept propaganda doesn't have shit on the ones IS make	[02:37]
asciilifeform	in ussr, most children knew the word - as a brand label of delicious ice cream.	[02:37]
nubbins`	heh	[02:37]
nubbins`	in canada, we knew it as what is now called "inuit" :D	[02:37]
Apocalyptic	same in france	[02:37]
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TheNewDeal	;;nethash	[03:17]
gribble	225405912.852	[03:17]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00063455 = 2.8872 BTC [-]	[03:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3400 @ 0.00063186 = 2.1483 BTC [-]	[03:32]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9650 @ 0.00063484 = 6.1262 BTC [+]	[04:16]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7550 @ 0.00063664 = 4.8066 BTC [+]	[04:23]
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asciilifeform	http://www.mekanizmalar.com/fergusons_paradox.html	[04:31]
assbot	Ferguson's Paradox	[04:31]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4081 @ 0.00063495 = 2.5912 BTC [-]	[04:50]
asciilifeform	http://www.mekanizmalar.com/desmodromics.html	[04:50]
assbot	Desmodromics Camshaft Mechanism	[04:50]
asciilifeform	and many other neat pictures.	[04:50]
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asciilifeform	^ spot the perpetuum mobile.	[05:02]
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asciilifeform	!up strup`fndr	[05:03]
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asciilifeform	ninjashogun?	[05:03]
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asciilifeform	stirrup finder ?	[05:04]
kakobrekla	strup as in poison?	[05:04]
asciilifeform	strup`fndr> hi, yes I am the same person (startup founder, offered services as well.)	[05:04]
asciilifeform	!down strup`fndr	[05:04]
asciilifeform	lol	[05:04]
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asciilifeform	^ anyone who yearns to hear this fellow talk - can turn the required knob.	[05:07]
kakobrekla	lol	[05:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3350 @ 0.00063186 = 2.1167 BTC [-]	[05:08]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11250 @ 0.00063154 = 7.1048 BTC [-]	[05:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00063264 = 3.5428 BTC [+]	[05:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24000 @ 0.0006309 = 15.1416 BTC [-] {2}	[05:19]
asciilifeform	!up strup`fndr	[05:20]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11850 @ 0.00063264 = 7.4968 BTC [+]	[05:48]
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TheNewDeal	ThickAsThieves any foia response?	[06:38]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10950 @ 0.00062792 = 6.8757 BTC [-]	[06:56]
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[]bot	Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before November" http://bitbet.us/bet/1040/ Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.11998 BTC. Current weight: 85,892.	[06:58]
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asciilifeform	this is just too good.	[07:07]
asciilifeform	http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LQKkpS3b	[07:07]
asciilifeform	assuming mr. spam is, in BingoBoingo's words, an 'unsavoury garnish', i'd like to nominate him for red banner of lenin.	[07:08]
asciilifeform	(obvious. the man is clearly a mole, and doing a terrific hash of his duties on purpose.)	[07:08]
asciilifeform	he can collect his 'order of lenin' right after that chap who burned down a u.s. nuke sub a few years ago.	[07:10]
asciilifeform	(who? him: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/navy-nuclear-submarine-burned-arsonist-scrapped-article-1.1421356)	[07:10]
assbot	Page Not Found	[07:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6171 @ 0.00062792 = 3.8749 BTC [-]	[07:12]
asciilifeform	http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/real-estate-tycoon-larry-glazer-wife-aboard-plane-crashed-jamaica-article-1.1929548 << 'problems' !	[07:13]
assbot	Real estate tycoon Larry Glazer, wife were aboard plane that crashed near Jamaica - NY Daily News	[07:13]
kakobrekla	hrm, if he is really a mole he is doing a terribly poor job :(	[07:13]
Apocalyptic	"i.e. just turn on either the microphone/speakers or monitor/webcam to read and communicate with the cardano)?" you gotta be kidding me...	[07:13]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: soviet mole.	[07:13]
asciilifeform	in usg.	[07:13]
asciilifeform	hence the one-star performance.	[07:13]
Apocalyptic	who in their right mind would favour such a thing	[07:13]
kakobrekla	lol	[07:13]
asciilifeform	at this point it seems clear - the man is working hard to make us laugh	[07:14]
Apocalyptic	clearly	[07:14]
asciilifeform	clearly he deserves - reward for his efforts.	[07:15]
asciilifeform	and so,	[07:15]
asciilifeform	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Order_of_Lenin_type4.jpg	[07:15]
kakobrekla	o a type 4.	[07:16]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00062472 = 1.8742 BTC [-]	[07:20]
asciilifeform	anyone here not familiar with vonnegut's 'mother night' -or- semyonov's 'seventeen moments of spring' ? book or film, either.	[07:21]
asciilifeform	approximately same idea.	[07:23]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22900 @ 0.00062428 = 14.296 BTC [-]	[07:33]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9597 @ 0.00062286 = 5.9776 BTC [-] {2}	[07:38]
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ThickAsThieves	<+TheNewDeal> ThickAsThieves any foia response? // None reported.	[08:17]
TheNewDeal	:(	[08:17]
ThickAsThieves	At this point I don't care, as it wouldn't really affect the market price to find out	[08:17]
ThickAsThieves	but i do have a bet on it...	[08:17]
ThickAsThieves	fukn annoying	[08:17]
TheNewDeal	same	[08:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00062668 = 7.9588 BTC [+]	[08:45]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27700 @ 0.00062512 = 17.3158 BTC [-]	[08:55]
mircea_popescu	* asciilifeform has seen this said about more than one obscure natural language, it always seems to be a reflection of the linguist's ineptitude, in practice. << quite. it's not true of inuit languages any more it's true of russian.	[08:55]
mircea_popescu	so you have to specify the gender of the teacup in some contexts. does not equate to "speaker can not make ambiguous statements"	[08:55]
mircea_popescu	this is not the case in any natural language, poetry exists anywhere.	[08:55]
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mircea_popescu	http://www.mekanizmalar.com/desmodromics.html << i read desdemona in there for some reason, which reminds me of a story. picture youthful mp at maly, for a staging of othello, in russian. now, bearin in mind that in romanian "zdreanta" means rag or figuratively whore, picture youthful mp hearing a very decided othello burst out "davai zdreanta, desdiemona!!1" and go into incontrollable peels of laughter	[09:00]
mircea_popescu	mode	[09:00]
assbot	Desmodromics Camshaft Mechanism	[09:00]
mircea_popescu	to the degree he had to be escorted out by the ushers	[09:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17169 @ 0.00062121 = 10.6656 BTC [-] {2}	[09:17]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19300 @ 0.00062553 = 12.0727 BTC [+] {2}	[09:24]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4831 @ 0.00062099 = 3 BTC [-]	[10:09]
[]bot	Bet placed: 3 BTC for No on "Bitcoin over $600 before October" http://bitbet.us/bet/1025/ Odds: 19(Y):81(N) by coin, 33(Y):67(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.55600627 BTC. Current weight: 39,112.	[10:16]
*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[18:42]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[18:42]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 21:58:12 2014	[18:42]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), first identify with gribble and then send "!up" to assbot in a private message. If you do not have a WoT account, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary pass.	[18:42]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	gooood morning bitcoin ppls!	[18:43]
ThickAsThieves	http://www.coindesk.com/peter-thiel-fellowship-ethereum-vitalik-buterin/	[18:46]
assbot	$100k Peter Thiel Fellowship Awarded to Ethereum's Vitalik Buterin	[18:46]
ThickAsThieves	:(	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	aaaahahahhha	[18:47]
ThickAsThieves	good morning mircea	[18:47]
ThickAsThieves	sounds like a tv show	[18:47]
ThickAsThieves	Mornings with Mircea!	[18:47]
mircea_popescu	"Thiel stressed the need for his programme while expressing optimism about what this year’s class could achieve"	[18:47]
mircea_popescu	derp.	[18:47]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves i nearly had my radio show in romanian a few years ago.	[18:48]
ThickAsThieves	well considering your Howard Stern similarities, it's a shame it didnt happen	[18:48]
mircea_popescu	in very winchell fashion i insisted the contract include an indemnity clause tho, and well... fell through.	[18:48]
mircea_popescu	romanians are neither very litigious nor is the local fcc very tough, but to make up for it ro publishers are very very poor.	[18:49]
mircea_popescu	but yeah, i'd have listened to it. the shit we talk about with the slavegirls alone would make an hour of excellent show pretty much daily.	[18:50]
ThickAsThieves	how are you liking argentina, in contrast?	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	o, i love argentina.	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	not that they're not poor or anything.	[18:50]
ThickAsThieves	seattle and potland were nice, seattle seems to be very healthy	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	anyway, once ethereum cracks open thiel being interviewed for his complicity in propping the scam will become a prerequsite for any further discussions re collaboration of bitcoin authorities with us authorities.	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	just so we know in advance.	[18:51]
ThickAsThieves	i heard rumors thiel sent a rep to scout Neo, i guess he dodged that one	[18:52]
BingoBoingo	!up Aquent	[18:52]
*	assbot gives voice to Aquent	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[18:53]
BingoBoingo	Aquent: You wouldn't happen to be Thiel by any chance?	[18:53]
Aquent	no lol	[18:53]
BingoBoingo	!down Aquent	[18:53]
*	assbot removes voice from Aquent	[18:53]
ThickAsThieves	heh	[18:53]
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mircea_popescu	lmao	[18:54]
ThickAsThieves	"Whenever I see that Thiel is giving away money, I get the goosebumps. How comes that he is always mentioned in connection with PayPal, but almost never in connection with Palantir, Prism, NSA and CIA?"	[18:54]
BingoBoingo	!b 9	[18:55]
assbot	Last 9 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3T4KFH5.txt )	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves "because guess".	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	fucking us oligarchs will end up with bitcoin community interdictions at this rate	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	until their regime starts fucking conforming to international law.	[18:56]
ThickAsThieves	http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/09/05/alibaba-biggest-ipo-by-market-value-of-all-time/	[18:56]
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assbot	Alibaba: Biggest IPO By Market Value of All Time - MoneyBeat - WSJ	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	o hey, i think i had some bets on that	[18:56]
ThickAsThieves	thatll be fun, my guess is all the other tech stocks will suffer	[18:56]
ThickAsThieves	this TSLA is so boring, time for Alibaba!	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	http://bitbet.us/bet/1019/alibaba-ipo-mkt-cap-over-150b-end-of/	[18:56]
assbot	BitBet - Alibaba IPO mkt cap over $150B end of opening day :: 1.63 B (64%) on Yes, 0.92 B (36%) on No \| closing in 2 weeks 6 days \| weight: 42`661 (100`000 to 1)	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	check out the preciseness of bitbet. 150bn ?	[18:57]
ThickAsThieves	bb has a way	[18:57]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35850 @ 0.00060288 = 21.6132 BTC [+] {4}	[18:58]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.40915124 BTC to 15`372 shares, 9167 satoshi per share	[19:01]
assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 4.69195104 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 408 satoshi per share	[19:02]
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mircea_popescu	punkman: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/05/nobel-chemistry-idUSL5E7L51U620111005 <<< i don't think useful original work has EVER not been ridiculed.	[19:05]
assbot	CORRECTED-UPDATE 3-Ridiculed crystal work wins Nobel for Israeli \| Reuters	[19:05]
mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves 5 before back to 8 or w/e it does ?	[19:06]
BingoBoingo	Moar NBA drama http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11481937/atlanta-hawks-owner-bruce-levenson-selling-team	[19:06]
assbot	Atlanta Hawks owner Bruce Levenson selling team - ESPN	[19:06]
ThickAsThieves	<+mircea_popescu> ThickAsThieves 5 before back to 8 or w/e it does ? /// i think i figured out exactly what it does actually	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	whassat ?	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	or secret.	[19:06]
ThickAsThieves	not secret, mike_c is gonna check i think	[19:07]
ThickAsThieves	basically the bot is pegged to a certain conversion value for a specific amount of btc	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	like in reverse ?	[19:07]
ThickAsThieves	the idea being the bot assumes MPOE is worth 80,000btc	[19:07]
ThickAsThieves	and that is some dollar value	[19:08]
ThickAsThieves	they are pegging	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	so it asumes it is worth X dollars practically ?	[19:08]
ThickAsThieves	right	[19:08]
mircea_popescu	so why isn't it going up.	[19:08]
ThickAsThieves	sry	[19:08]
asciilifeform	thiel is also a sponsor of 'urbit'.	[19:08]
ThickAsThieves	it assumes the btc worth	[19:08]
ThickAsThieves	converted	[19:08]
ThickAsThieves	so if btcusd goes down	[19:09]
ThickAsThieves	so does mpoe	[19:09]
asciilifeform	or, more precisely, of mr. yarvin's first full-time toady	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	but if it assumes x btc worth and shares trade in btc it should be stuck at 8	[19:09]
ThickAsThieves	cuz its assets are the btc	[19:09]
*	asciilifeform surprised that no one remembered this	[19:09]
ThickAsThieves	now i'm confusing myself	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no one said != no one remembered. ppls remember :)	[19:09]
asciilifeform	ahaha	[19:09]
asciilifeform	anyone find it peculiar how small is thiel's prize ?	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	nope.	[19:10]
ThickAsThieves	well he leaks money all over the place	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	cheap whores aren't given expensive prizes for a very good reason	[19:10]
asciilifeform	100k buys what - a year or two of food and roof in usa somewhere on the cheaper side.	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	that is, if you give them too much money it makes them stupid.	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	give them a little now and a little later they'll be sucking the c0k and doing a good job of it for years.	[19:11]
asciilifeform	or one new electron microscope (and get your food somewhere else)	[19:11]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, it is shocking, outrageous but also very amusing to see just how copy-pasted the final days us is from the peak of romania. it's almost as if instead of the romanian idiots copying teh superior us businessmen, the reverse happened.	[19:11]
asciilifeform	smells more like ussr circa 1988 or so, imho	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	i could prolly write a book of psychoantropology on the topic, but sadly it'd be rather incomprehensible in english without a ton of notes which kinda ruin the whole thing, and for 5 romanians able to read and write it's scarcely worth the year o' work.	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well obv. they'd be the same thing.	[19:12]
thestringpuller	you know how I know you're not american mircea_popescu : you hate cars	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	actually maybe you should write the book, except in russian. larger market.	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	good thing to do in prison, you know ? as it's requiring memory-only, no tools.	[19:13]
mircea_popescu	thestringpuller i dun hate cars ?	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	i dun think much of the concept of everyone being able to have their "own" car	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	but i guess that's what you actually meant.	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	anyway, re the original copy-paste point : i feel like i could practically translate my romanian articles mocking the romanian "press" and its associated "blogosphere" word for word, just substitute names.	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	ridoinculous.	[19:16]
mircea_popescu	http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24553/24553-h/24553-h.htm just for teh hell of it.	[19:18]
assbot	Error 403	[19:18]
mircea_popescu	you think i write complicatedly, try morley for a spin	[19:20]
ThickAsThieves	<+thestringpuller> you know how I know you're not american mircea_popescu : you hate cars /// i cant stand driving and all the stuff about cars other than that they get me places	[19:22]
mircea_popescu	i can't stand sucking cock either doesn't mean i hate blowjobs. what's driving to do with it.	[19:23]
ThickAsThieves	my wife is the one that gets new cars, i get the hand-me-downs. yesterday i was positing that i should just sell mine and take cabs or uber or whatever everywhere	[19:25]
mircea_popescu	it works splendidly here. i guess depends on the cab quality	[19:26]
ThickAsThieves	when vacationing driving is also a major drag	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	well, get a girl for that.	[19:27]
ThickAsThieves	so why would S.MPOE go down when BTCUSD goes down?	[19:28]
mircea_popescu	i thought you had a theory	[19:29]
ThickAsThieves	i thought i did too, seems to merely be an observation for now	[19:31]
thestringpuller	http://thefreethoughtproject.com/10-year-old-boy-autism-treated-police-state/	[19:34]
assbot	This is How a 10-Year-Old Boy With Autism is Treated in a Police State \| The Free Thought Project	[19:34]
mircea_popescu	"Currently the leadership of the House of Savoy is contested by two cousins: Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples, who used to claim the title of King of Italy, and Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta, who still claims the title of the Duke of Savoy. Their rivalry has not always been peaceful — on May 21, 2004, following a dinner held by King Juan Carlos I of Spain on the eve of the wedding of his son Felipe, Prince of Astur	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	ias, Vittorio Emanuele punched Amedeo twice in the face."	[19:35]
thestringpuller	This problem has to do with society.s dependence upon state sanctioned force to solve problems.	[19:35]
mircea_popescu	i don't see much in that. so some asshole kid thinks himself special, got roughed up in the slightest.	[19:37]
mircea_popescu	how is this supposed to be a problem again ?	[19:37]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: cars << another thing in usa. more or less everybody is condemned to be his own cabbie, and to some extent, mechanic	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	that works great for 16yo boys.	[19:39]
asciilifeform	which is why we're more or less doomed to drive cabs (the lucky ones, that is) around the world, far more certainly than soviet emigres were	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	it's not such a bad fate.	[19:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00059994 = 8.9991 BTC [-] {2}	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	o wow that's a first innit	[19:41]
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mircea_popescu	well done tat for callin' it.	[19:41]
asciilifeform	then again i'm not certain any country will recognize american driver's licenses when the hour comes.	[19:41]
asciilifeform	for entirely practical reasons.	[19:41]
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mircea_popescu	they're not neatly that bad drivers.	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	i've seen much worse.	[19:42]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: why you hatin' on fixin' cars	[19:42]
thestringpuller	dis is murica	[19:42]
thestringpuller	i just saw an turbo charged e30 that puts ~450hp to the wheels	[19:43]
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asciilifeform	thestringpuller: 'tis one thing if you like oil, dirt, metal (matter of fact - i do) but another if you're stuck with them whether or not you do	[19:43]
thestringpuller	ah. the dilemma of "We're murica, you must own car"	[19:44]
thestringpuller	even if you don't want to	[19:44]
mircea_popescu	you know i lived there just fine w/o driving or owning a car.	[19:45]
thestringpuller	not so much in the big cities tho (NYC, Boston, etc.)	[19:45]
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thestringpuller	public transit doesn't reach where I live	[19:45]
asciilifeform	not impossible - but difficult if work for a living	[19:45]
thestringpuller	I have to bike 7 miles to the nearest bus stop	[19:45]
thestringpuller	which isn't effective for commuting...	[19:45]
mircea_popescu	i never biked.	[19:46]
mircea_popescu	but they had a towncar service that would basically go anywhere.	[19:46]
thestringpuller	i guess this is why Uber is becoming so overvalued...	[19:47]
thestringpuller	because of suburbia with poor rapid transit	[19:47]
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asciilifeform	'Recently I heard a story on NPR about a poor family that went around looking for discounted food items at various groceries and stopping at the food pantry—in their own private minivan! And so here is a poor family that owns what in many parts of the world would amount to a bus company!' (orlov)	[19:49]
asciilifeform	(npr is an american government-funded radio station)	[19:49]
mircea_popescu	well not that many. maybe guatemala and assimilated shitholes.	[19:49]
asciilifeform	fact is - much of the cost of owning vehicle in usa - is a fixed cost, whether or not it moves	[19:50]
mircea_popescu	it's really not THAT expensive.	[19:51]
asciilifeform	and so, everybody owns - a taxi. and some, even a bus or garbage truck.	[19:51]
asciilifeform	but for some odd reason aren't cabbies, bus drivers, or garbagemen	[19:51]
asciilifeform	$posint is expensive to the man who is flat broke	[19:52]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: is a fixed cost, whether or not it moves << this isn't true	[19:52]
thestringpuller	the cost is always depreciating especially if it doesn't move	[19:52]
thestringpuller	slowly to 0	[19:52]
thestringpuller	unless you own like a cold war volvo	[19:53]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: it's approximately true - most folks pay insurance (mandatory) and usually bought the machine on credit (so, they pay and pay)	[19:53]
asciilifeform	neither is strongly connected to how often it moves.	[19:53]
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artifexd	If anybody is curious, I know why MPOE is falling.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	shoot ?	[19:53]
artifexd	The reason is simple: I bought some.	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	haha	[19:53]
mircea_popescu	well don't buy anymore then lol	[19:54]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: oh yes in that sense! i was thinking of how there is an increasing cost to keep the car moving	[19:54]
artifexd	I need to DCA	[19:54]
jurov	oh there's mandatory car insurance in the us, too? so sooooocialist!	[19:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the credit part is stupid.	[19:54]
mircea_popescu	jurov look, if you let poor people drive, there's no way to not have mandatory insurance.	[19:54]
mircea_popescu	otherwise they are incentivised to drive poorly.	[19:54]
thestringpuller	rich people buy vehicles on credit too	[19:55]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: which part is stupid? most of these people couldn't hope to buy so much as a plastic&cardboard 'trabant' without massive credit	[19:55]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so then let them walk.	[19:56]
thestringpuller	in a land without infrastructure?	[19:56]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: as discussed in the past - the various u.s. castes have, for reasons of their own (ask them!) decided never to live in walking distance of one another, if it can be helped	[19:56]
thestringpuller	better off to tell them to just die	[19:56]
mircea_popescu	ok, so let them just die.	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	just because it's practically inconvenient doesn't make it less the correct solution.	[19:57]
asciilifeform	death is free, at least, for king and slave alike.	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this convention, like all things man made, is attendant on it being possible.	[19:57]
mircea_popescu	if they can't have had so agreed, they in fact didn't so agree.	[19:58]
asciilifeform	at the risk of sounding like orlov - modern 'machine civilization' tends to create wildly thermodynamically-unfavourable situations like this one.	[19:59]
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asciilifeform	what usa does with transport is not unlike housing, e.g., penguins in sahara	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	it creates the POSSIBILITY of it asciilifeform. not the actuiality and not really the obligaiton.	[20:00]
asciilifeform	goes on for so long as you have infinite joules to throw at the problem.	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	much like cellars create the possibility of very uncomfortable sleep in the dank darkness.	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	nobody forces you to sleep in the fucking basement	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	or to rent basements to live in	[20:00]
asciilifeform	more like the olympic drugs.	[20:00]
asciilifeform	can -> must	[20:00]
mircea_popescu	you can always die.	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	this is so easily discarded.	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you ever captured a mouse ?	[20:01]
asciilifeform	sure!	[20:01]
mircea_popescu	want me to tell you the story of my recent adventure with a cute little fuzzball ?	[20:01]
*	asciilifeform killed the last two in old flat with own hands	[20:02]
*	asciilifeform lacked cat	[20:02]
asciilifeform	yes - story	[20:02]
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mircea_popescu	so last autumn i was living in a recently developped residential area - i guess what would be a gated community in the us, except romanians don't gate.	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	for centuries prior, that land had been - how do you call fields cultrivated with hay ?	[20:03]
asciilifeform	pasture ?	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	something like that. so one night while in here, i see movement in the corner of my eye	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	so i know it's a mouse, right ? and so i get a large bowl, and tape some floss to a pack of ciggs. put some cheese under the propper bowl and get back to chatting.	[20:04]
mircea_popescu	a little later, the guy is caught, of course. so i put him in a large glass jar with a metal lid, after punching some holes with a screwdriverr in that lid.	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	and i get a good look at the guy, you know ? after all, this had been his land for a long long time, generations of his forefathers had hunted for hayseeds and whatnot on complicated , traditional walk patters all over the field of my garden	[20:05]
mircea_popescu	what did he do ? he kept jumping. trying to push the lid off with his tiny nose. ding-ding-ding-ding	[20:06]
asciilifeform	lemme guess, little bugger died of exhaustion	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	notwithstanding that the lid was you know, on a thread for crying out loud. and since i punched the holes from outside, notwithstanding that there were jagged shards of metal pointing his way, which he could i guess sorta- avoid. tho he mostly looked to be jumping blindly.	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	eventually i was oh enough of this shit, and so put the vessel on its side.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	so it stopped jumping.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	instead, it kept trying to chew sheet metal with it's truely tiny, half mm in width teeth.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	and it never stopped.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	the animal's desire of freedom properly surpassed any consideration of self preservation.	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	which is why i eventually stood up from my fucking work, took it to a vacant field further down and let it be.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	now - the point here being that a correct set of priorities will in fact move mountains, and my work at my computer as compared in any perspective to a mouse's activities is mountaineous.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	so : let them fucking die trying. you can't live where you are ? walk to where you can live.	[20:09]
mircea_popescu	die on the road, it's a noble death.	[20:09]
asciilifeform	u.s. motto could be: st augustine's prayer, 'god grant me chastity - but not yet'	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	it's also why i tend to be suspicious of people that despise animals. generally it's the sign they're not as intellectually respectable as the average field mouse.	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	when they start with the "we're not animals" bits, i tend to glaze over and think "no, you're not, are you".	[20:10]
asciilifeform	most people, esp. in infested dwellings, are quite particular about which animals they like	[20:10]
mircea_popescu	well sure, but this was as to the general	[20:11]
asciilifeform	i actually 'liked' the rats in that flat quite a bit more than the mice. the latter - shat every quarter metre they walked, or so it seemed. the rats - more disciplined, organized, had battalions, detachments - respectable.	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	lol	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	mebbe your rats were overfed	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	mice i mean.	[20:14]
asciilifeform	possible.	[20:14]
asciilifeform	rats, it is said, even have penal battalions, used as scouts.	[20:15]
asciilifeform	after finally killed one in an electrical trap, the entire force retreated to a neighbour's.	[20:15]
BingoBoingo	Maybe asciilifeform has the actual NIMH rats	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	i thought it's just the young/shitty ones	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	lol this here is the premise of a decent speculative spy fiction story	[20:16]
*	asciilifeform does not know precisely how rats assign rank	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	usg makes mechanical spy rat, person catches it because well, it doesn't properly batallion	[20:16]
asciilifeform	this almost happened:	[20:17]
asciilifeform	usg caught an alley cat, tamed, and implanted a listening device, then released (in moscow, i think)	[20:17]
asciilifeform	the poor beast promptly got run over by a bus.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	"problems" ?	[20:18]
asciilifeform	or just not quite right.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	lol	[20:18]
asciilifeform	as for mice, if they have organizational abilities, this was not apparent in my kitchen.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	you know, this was the first mice i've seen in a decade.	[20:21]
asciilifeform	and yes, animals will fight to the death, to exhaustion - what else might one expect them to do? negotiate a conditional surrender with the mousetrap? a ceasefire with the glass jar ?	[20:21]
mircea_popescu	the last set being in egypt for crying out loud.	[20:21]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you will notice that he could have just resisted the glass jar through culture.	[20:22]
mircea_popescu	;;google "rezistenta prin cultura"	[20:22]
gribble	Rezistenţa prin cultură - TVR+: ; Andrei Plesu despre rezistenta prin cultura - YouTube: ; Rezistenţa prin cultură - Alice Voinescu - YouTube:	[20:22]
mircea_popescu	and of course, the definitive words on that topic, http://trilema.com/2010/vina-batranilor/	[20:22]
assbot	Vina batranilor pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.	[20:22]
asciilifeform	mice have not yet invented smoking dope, and so do not know how to 'resist through culture'	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	except the romanian "intellectuals" and for that matter the zeks got no dope.	[20:24]
asciilifeform	i suppose a handful of natural schizoids, and slavish imitation thereof, can substitute for dope.	[20:26]
mircea_popescu	no, dope doesn't enter into it. all that's required is the proposition that surviving today is more important than living well.	[20:26]
mircea_popescu	something of which mice are malignantly made the figurehead of. they are not.	[20:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00059946 = 7.1935 BTC [-] {2}	[20:29]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: sex anal cu tractoare, motocositoare si combine agricole >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mVOd8zY3D8 << 'in Flyshitte, in the Red Corpse Kolhoz... there lived Tractoresse!'	[20:33]
assbot	. [HD] - YouTube	[20:33]
asciilifeform	^ song about the harm of studying mathematics.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	lol	[20:34]
*	BingoBoingo is now known as oglafbot	[20:34]
oglafbot	http://oglaf.com/pretaliation/	[20:34]
assbot	pretaliation	[20:34]
*	oglafbot is now known as BingoBoingo	[20:34]
asciilifeform	'she plowed all the fields... for wheat, but not also for scalars, vectors, and even galois fields...'	[20:35]
asciilifeform	*now also	[20:35]
mircea_popescu	tractoritza lol. that's exactly how you'd say it in romanian.	[20:36]
mircea_popescu	how diminutives work. victoria - victorица	[20:36]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: slightly different in ru. e.g., минетчица ~= 'blowjobesse', тракторица ~= 'tracroresse' - in same sense as Fr. 'comedienne.'	[20:38]
mircea_popescu	in romanian comedienne is formed as the diminutive. comediette.	[20:38]
cazalla	nothing like someone using a chainsaw at 3am to wake you up	[20:39]
asciilifeform	aha.	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	cazalla good mornin'.	[20:39]
asciilifeform	cazalla: 'find some meat!'	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform thus doctor - doctorita. literally, little-she doctor.	[20:39]
asciilifeform	Мухосранск ~= 'flyshit', analogous to american 'bumfuck, illinois.' proverbial agropesthole.	[20:41]
cazalla	asciilifeform, would be nice but they're cutting down trees	[20:43]
cazalla	chainsaw wakes me but baby never does, just the wife, she is still sleeping, didn't hear chainsaw	[20:43]
mircea_popescu	clearly you're tuned for machinery and she's tuned to babies.	[20:44]
cazalla	i've read that before, i assume because the fathers need sleep to hunt the next day	[20:45]
jurov	http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2014-09-06-zeroing-buffers-is-insufficient.html	[20:45]
assbot	Zeroing buffers is insufficient	[20:45]
asciilifeform	jurov: as usual, author stops half-way.	[20:46]
mircea_popescu	i came back to say "wait, that's only part of the story"	[20:46]
mircea_popescu	i don't read fast enough.	[20:46]
jurov	i got an idea about virtualization - i foubt any hypervisor erases SSE registers betweeen guests	[20:47]
jurov	*doubt	[20:47]
jurov	(not mentioned in tfa at all, fo course)	[20:47]
asciilifeform	let's suppose that you cannot escape the sin of running crypto on a multiuser os with von neumann cpu (for sake of argument.) let's also suppose that you are stuck with a traditional 'C' compiler, and your work must remain portable (no inline asm)	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	"decided to sanitize his stack by zeroing until he triggered a page fault" this in particular does nothing.	[20:50]
asciilifeform	even then - can simply declare 'volatile'	[20:50]
asciilifeform	if your compiler does not respect 'volatile' - throw it out	[20:50]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the os may not respect volatile.	[20:50]
asciilifeform	a sufficiently dumb os won't provide a way of allocating non-paged heap, yes.	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	the problem is unresolvable : without cryptographically verified multi-user ability, there is no way to run crypto on shared system.	[20:51]
jurov	he's writing about registers, not memory.. but then, on one side they get wiped on context switch	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	how to make an os that behaves "provalby fair", for that matter, ios still very much an open question	[20:51]
jurov	on other side, they get saved into..memory	[20:52]
asciilifeform	'provably fair' ?	[20:52]
asciilifeform	in what sense	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes. ie, that you can cryptographically verify that no other user can read your space, ever, at all.	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	this includes any and all superusrs.	[20:52]
asciilifeform	superusers << 'god creates stone, so heavy, he can't lift'	[20:53]
asciilifeform	what even means 'superuser' in such a machine	[20:53]
asciilifeform	?	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	one that can start/stop it.	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	as an obvious definition.	[20:53]
asciilifeform	starts, stops - but can't saw it open ?	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	even should he saw it open.	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	it's an unresolved problem for good reason eh.	[20:54]
jurov	you are prolly talking about cpu that guarantees no unencrypoted data leaves its internal cache?	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	in principle you should be able to define an object whose malleability allows enough functions to work so as to be turing-complete.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	jurov no. i am talking about an os that only processes encrypted data.	[20:54]
mircea_popescu	the no-raw-machine/	[20:55]
asciilifeform	!s paillier	[20:55]
assbot	7 results for 'paillier' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=paillier	[20:55]
asciilifeform	solvable for particular meanings of 'process'	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	yeah, that may be a good starting point	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	bjt kd	[20:55]
mircea_popescu	but ideally - while i can live without running a webserver off this - i still want to have bash	[20:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27706 @ 0.00060102 = 16.6519 BTC [+]	[20:56]
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mircea_popescu	Consider the "XMM" registers on the x86 architecture: They will only be used by the SSE family of instructions, which is not widely used in most applications — so once a value is stored in one of those registers, it may remain there for a long time. One of the rare instances those registers are used by cryptographic code, however, is for AES computations, using the "AESNI" instruction set.	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	one of the best reasons to not use aes seriously.	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	i wasn't aware this is public knowledge.	[20:57]
asciilifeform	you're just as fucked if you use another cipher via, e.g, microshit's vendor lib	[20:57]
mircea_popescu	but this is universal, nothing to do with ms.	[20:58]
jurov	mircea you know of any crypto that doesn't need registers?	[20:58]
asciilifeform	no one forces you to use intel's aes instructions!	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	jurov im pretty sure it all does, but they don';t all have to be xmm via aesni	[20:58]
asciilifeform	next year, suppose, they include a gigantic multiplier and special instructions for rsa. want to use these ?	[20:58]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "no one" ? yes, one. the machine may force you to whether you want to or not.	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	you don;'t know what it does.	[20:59]
jurov	xmm registers aren't anything exceptional. os saves them into memory on context switch like everything else	[20:59]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: fundamental misunderstanding. machine does not know (unless it is fiendishly complicated, and elaborately trapped, perhaps) that you are doing, e.g., rsa.	[20:59]
mircea_popescu	jurov the discussion was as to how often they get overwritten	[20:59]
asciilifeform	but the cpu manual offers compiler writers the option of using 'our new exciting accelerator for 4096-bit chinese remainder theorem'	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i think you're thinking of the case where you compile your thing and install it as bytecode. i was thinking of the case where you compile locally.	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	more properly, "was at some ptoint compiled locally"	[21:00]
asciilifeform	compiler can use 'fancy' instruction that does various things 'in one shot' - or can use ordinary i386-style fixint multiply, etc.	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	It gets worse. Nearly every AES implementation using AESNI will leave two values in registers: The final block of output, and the final round key. The final block of output isn't a problem for encryption operations — it is ciphertext, which we can assume has leaked anyway — but for encryption an AES-128 key can be computed from the final round key, and for decryption the final round key is the AES-128 key. (For AES	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	-192 and AES-256 revealing the final round key provides 128 bits of key entropy.)	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	good article.	[21:01]
asciilifeform	likewise compiler has the option of pissing out 'xor reg, reg' etc - clean up after yourself	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	i guess the author doesn't realise it or something, but this lays bare a much used, fundamental, very valuable exploit of aes.	[21:02]
asciilifeform	to see this as issue with aes in particular is a grave mistake. it's an issue with using a 'food chain' that you aren't intimately aware of to the bottom.	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	in practice it's used as an aes hole. but yes.	[21:03]
asciilifeform	consider the problems dr. evil faces when he designs a diddled cpu.	[21:03]
asciilifeform	he wants to know when you - victim - will be deciphering/signing battle plan.	[21:04]
asciilifeform	chip will transmit plan to waiting gasenwagen with antennae, over power line hiss.	[21:04]
asciilifeform	but first it needs to know when to begin and end transmission	[21:05]
asciilifeform	because it would not do to transmit constantly (might interfere with neighbour's teledildotron and she'll tip you off)	[21:05]
asciilifeform	it is, in principle, possible for dr. evil's cpu to recognize when, e.g, given version of gpg is in the process of taking the modular exponentiation.	[21:06]
asciilifeform	but this would take up a good deal of real estate on the chip die, and someone might notice.	[21:06]
mircea_popescu	that's nonsense. here's a simpler approach : every time a new value is loaded into sse register append it to a special buffer. buffer gets dumped in return for any packet headed so sent to port so.	[21:07]
asciilifeform	instead - why not fool you - victim - to let the cpu know precisely when it is handling private key.	[21:07]
asciilifeform	so it can begin sending.	[21:07]
mircea_popescu	it's "for debugging purspoes"	[21:07]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: baked. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1441	[21:08]
assbot	Loper OS » Mechanics of FLUXBABBITT.	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	exactly.	[21:08]
asciilifeform	but have some sympathy for poor dr. evil. he only has, what, half a dozen vans in a city. doesn't care to sift through every idiot playing 'quake' pissing in his sse regs.	[21:09]
asciilifeform	only want to hear rsa key. (or aes, whatever.)	[21:09]
mircea_popescu	orly ?	[21:09]
mircea_popescu	afaik that's exactly what he wants : to inflate the categories.	[21:09]
asciilifeform	so he begins with cheapest variant - politely asks microshit to include convenient crypto routines in os.	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	if he can get paid to listen to rsa keys buyt then for "technical reasons" can make that baloon 10x,	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	he'	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	s thrilled to do it.	[21:10]
asciilifeform	which conveniently record key and mail it off.	[21:10]
mircea_popescu	more money.	[21:10]
asciilifeform	then somebody finds it. or miscreants start using illegal111 os without said feature.	[21:10]
asciilifeform	so now dr. evil needs to sell nice, convenient cpu with baked in crypto	[21:10]
asciilifeform	amazing aes! fast.	[21:10]
assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!	[21:10]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34100 @ 0.0005989 = 20.4225 BTC [-] {3}	[21:11]
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asciilifeform	notice when diddled cpus are commonly thought to have appeared. not only when vlsi went far enough to create a comfortable padded hiding place, but when spread of linux, etc. exposed the limits of the diddled-os approach.	[21:12]
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mircea_popescu	heh.	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	im sure thiel will give 100k prizes to whoever came up with the brilliant idea of a wait, no. they don't need it.	[21:18]
asciilifeform	lol	[21:22]
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bitstein	More usability nonsense. Trusted servers are soooo much better than PGP, right? http://www.wired.com/2014/09/oxguard/	[21:26]
assbot	The Open Source Tool That Lets You Send Encrypted Emails to Anyone \| Enterprise \| WIRED	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	"encrypt" your emails to everyone. it's good for the emails and ok for you!	[21:26]
bitstein	Loved your post on usability, btw.	[21:27]
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thestringpuller	asciilifeform: how difficult does this procedure look: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/pictures-how-to-replace-an-snes-cartridge-save-game-battery	[21:33]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: soldering lithium 'clock' batteries will dramatically shorten their life - and possibly explode	[21:34]
asciilifeform	unless done with a spot welder or laser	[21:35]
thestringpuller	damn so this guy is an idiot?	[21:35]
thestringpuller	:( I guess I'm not saving games anytime soon	[21:35]
asciilifeform	not idiot - merely poor	[21:35]
thestringpuller	how much do you charge for electronic surgery?	[21:36]
asciilifeform	i regret to say that i do not run a repair shop.	[21:37]
asciilifeform	i recommend attaching a replacement battery using conductive epoxy.	[21:38]
asciilifeform	this is less than ideal, but will work.	[21:38]
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mircea_popescu	thestringpuller heating them is no good for them	[21:43]
aabtc	aegis agamemnon23 AndrewJackson Anduck antonosika Apocalyptic arij artifexd asciilifeform assbot atcbot Azelphur	[21:45]
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assbot	[HAVELOCK] [ALC] 4 @ 0.12773454 = 0.5109 BTC [+] {3}	[21:49]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: alternatively, solder in a battery holder of appropriate shape, and insert battery after it cools.	[21:51]
asciilifeform	(soldered-in batteries are a classic 'forced obsolescence' scam.)	[21:52]
asciilifeform	it doesn't have to be a coin cell, either. can attach one of, say, these - http://www.ictradenet.com/models_pic/BH2AA-W.jpg - to outside of cartridge. drill a hole, attach terminals to correct spots. won't win any beauty contests, but will work.	[21:54]
asciilifeform	use lithium 'aa' cells rather than alkalines, or you won't have >3v when cells are not quite new any more.	[21:54]
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kakobrekla	http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm	[22:04]
assbot	Manna, Chapter 1, by Marshall Brain	[22:04]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla is this "fast food employee tries to parlay his work experience into a novel, because write what you know" ?	[22:08]
kakobrekla	dunno, just another end game.	[22:08]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: lol!!! i read that years ago	[22:08]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: lost the link also long ago. thank you for digging it out	[22:09]
kakobrekla	:)	[22:09]
asciilifeform	this kind of tale will read as utopian hogwash when the -proper- (e.g., with electroshock and mine) collars are issued.	[22:11]
asciilifeform	as pictured in films 'cloud atlas', 'deadlock', etc.	[22:12]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: thanks for the advice!	[22:12]
decimation	re: lithium batteries << yes the conventional solution is a spring-clip style battery holder if one can't spot-weld lead to device	[22:15]
asciilifeform	soldered batteries are an atrocity.	[22:15]
decimation	asciilifeform: but the chinese factory saved several cents!	[22:15]
decimation	not that it really matters anyway, because their production is subsidized by the prc, and the purchaser is subsidized by usg	[22:16]
mircea_popescu	several in the sense of .8	[22:16]
asciilifeform	'"Do you have guest status with any resident?" The robot asked. "No." "Do you have means of support unknown to me?" I suppose I could have stashed a cache of gold under my mattress, and this question allowed me to declare it. Such a cache would, of course, be grounds for arrest, so I was screwed either way. "No." I was without any means of support. "In accordance with ordinance 605.12b, you have been assigned ro	[22:19]
asciilifeform	om 140352 in building 16, resident quant C. This assignment provides you with suitable housing and nourishment to sustain your life. Please board the bus."'	[22:19]
asciilifeform	great story. how nostalgic! like robert sheckley's 'the academy.' usa was once a rich country, people imagined that they would get to retire into comfortable prisons when an 'age of the robot' comes	[22:21]
decimation	Re: Thiel working with usg << I can't imagine anyone running a 'bank' or 'bank-like' service and not being a spy for usg, it's the law yo	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	it is the law.	[22:22]
asciilifeform	thiel, like his fellows, is less of a baron (with the attendant inviolable privileges) than a... reichsführer. whose lands, posts - are contingent on playing ball and being good boy.	[22:24]
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mircea_popescu	well paypal definitely can have problem.	[22:25]
mircea_popescu	but as far as i recall, it was a serious source of friction between the third reich gauleiters and eastern european nobility, that the latter despised the former on the grounds of... well... this, exactly.	[22:26]
asciilifeform	well yes!	[22:26]
mircea_popescu	obviously since we're speaking of germany, an east european power par excellence, these were often the same people.	[22:26]
*	asciilifeform recommends the 'manna' story except for final chapters. just like mircea_popescu's snip of the 'dulap' tale.	[22:27]
asciilifeform	a necessary snip.	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	especially in the army.	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	hence hitler's constant suspicions of being betrayed by teh heer	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform maybe that's cause for a rewrite.	[22:29]
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asciilifeform	paypal is a classic 'crown privilege' monopoly.	[22:29]
asciilifeform	from day one.	[22:29]
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mircea_popescu	one can only wonder how the us would have fared had it not turned socialist in 1930.	[22:35]
mircea_popescu	fdr had scarcely the secessionist excuses of lincoln to fuck the country up. without his lame contribution, it'd have stayed in one piece, but perhaps may have survived the 21st century.	[22:36]
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decimation	re: hitler < the "old right" nobility and "old republican-style" conservatives in germany gave Hitler control after his party won a minority share because they thought they could 'control him'	[22:38]
mircea_popescu	not rly quite as broad. it was one schmuck	[22:39]
mircea_popescu	von pappen	[22:40]
decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_November_1932 They were all worried about the communists too	[22:40]
assbot	German federal election, November 1932 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia	[22:40]
[]bot	Bet created: "Euro sinks against USD" http://bitbet.us/bet/1041/	[22:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.BBET] 2190 @ 0.00040521 = 0.8874 BTC [-] {2}	[22:42]
[]bot	Bet created: "Arrest related to the Fappening" http://bitbet.us/bet/1042/	[22:43]
chetty	http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/09/02/warning-world-washington-nato-eu-vassals-insane-paul-craig-roberts-2/	[22:45]
assbot	Warning to the World: Washington and its NATO & EU Vassals are Insane -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	oh, no, it's just that putin i mean roberts "does not understand how the world works"	[22:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.0006025 = 1.5063 BTC [+]	[22:46]
mircea_popescu	said every insane person ever.	[22:47]
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decimation	Imagine if the us were at war with mexico, and russia was openly contemplating sending troops/planes/whatever to the mexican border. people in the us would go apeshit	[22:50]
asciilifeform	'zimmerman telegram'	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	"The American and Israeli trained and equipped Georgian army collapsed under Russian counterattack in 5 hours."	[22:50]
decimation	asciilifeform: one can see a copy hanging in the nsa museum as I recall	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	lol check it out, the russian foreign service is quite active in the fringe of the us discourse. orlov, roberts, there's a list with these talking points.	[22:50]
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*	asciilifeform feels like a chump, apparently works for russian foreign service for free, should demand pay	[22:51]
decimation	https://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic_heritage/museum/virtual_tour/museum_tour_text.shtml#zimmermann_telegram	[22:51]
assbot	National Cryptologic Museum - NSA/CSS	[22:51]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform whyssat ?	[22:51]
asciilifeform	because i have no quarrel with anything in that piece - imho, entirely factual.	[22:52]
mircea_popescu	it's not, but before we get there,	[22:52]
mircea_popescu	He was a prime minister of Denmark who saw he could rise beyond Denmark by serving as Washington’s puppet. As prime minister he strongly supported Washington’s illegal invasion of Iraq, declaring that “we know that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.” Of course, the fool didn’t know any such thing, and why would it matter if Iraq did have such weapons. Many countries have weapons of mass destructi	[22:52]
mircea_popescu	on.	[22:52]
mircea_popescu	isn't it funny how global-warming this sounds ? "we know there is anthropogenic bla bla"	[22:53]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i don't have any issue with anything in that piece either, but this isn't the criteria. the form specifically is what one uses to identify these things.	[22:53]
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decimation	To me, mature adults could sit down and hash this stuff out "yes, you can have east Ukraine in exchange for helping us keep a lid on the crazy islams down in the middle east"	[22:54]
asciilifeform	decimation: except that 'crazy islam' is an animal of which usg is a studious gamekeeper.	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	decimation the russians are unable to do anything in the middle east, as proven by their fabulous failures in afghanistan and cecenia. what's worse, they know this, and won't bargain for it.	[22:55]
asciilifeform	(occasional rabid bite nonwithstanding)	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not so. they like to pretend like they are, much like the 11 yo child of a man who keeps fighting dogs pretends to be the master of said dogs for the benefit of any visiting classmates.	[22:55]
decimation	I guess as an american far away from everything I would vastly prefer russian hegemony over asia than crazy islam rule, but somehow my 'leaders' see things differently	[22:56]
asciilifeform	decimation: it is necessary to understand why usg must do what it does. as in a 'wild west' film, 'ain't room enough in this town for the both of us'	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	it really makes no difference. no matter his hair color, a married man is a married man. and so no matter the "ideology", whoever is stuck administering two billion people over ten million acres is similarly caught.	[22:56]
mircea_popescu	they'll do exactly what they can get away with, and no more.	[22:57]
asciilifeform	the worst thing for a totalitarian reich (like usg and its 'international kommunity' muppet theatre) is - the existence of a 'pepsi' alternative.	[22:57]
asciilifeform	i.e. - a place to which thinking men could defect.	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform for the reason that then the coke and the pepsi must bid for my allegiance	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	much in the way mpex has no home unless some territory with pretentions of statality makes an excellent offrt	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	kinda how the holy roman emperor got ground into dust.	[22:58]
asciilifeform	this is key.	[22:58]
decimation	mircea_popescu: and that's my point, for purely practical reasons alone, one would think that the 'married men' who have to deal with reality would prefer a power that has a track record of at least keeping a lid on the crazies at home and showing up to the diplomacy table with things in order	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	decimation nope. in general, sane people would prefer the alternative. perpetually.	[22:58]
mircea_popescu	let nothing ever be "well settled".	[22:59]
asciilifeform	everybody focuses on, e.g., petro-war, when looking for reason for usg bleeding to the bone in effort to undermine russia	[22:59]
asciilifeform	but it's a secondary thing.	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not so. admire this wonder of wonders :	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	these people who use that terminology SAY petro war, but ONLY because in their cluelessness the petro- stands for the symbol you correctly use.	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	ie, you both mean the same thing. if you allow oil to stand for the "root" account of the world, then yes it's petro-war.	[23:00]
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jurov	because i have no quarrel with anything in that piece - imho, entirely factual. << did anyone confirmed kiev started by murdering civilians?	[23:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14504 @ 0.00060326 = 8.7497 BTC [+] {2}	[23:01]
decimation	under this petro-war theory, is the us trying to keep russian oil out of the world market? to the detriment of the us?	[23:01]
asciilifeform	jurov: if you ask kiev, the east 'started it' by refusing to fellate nazi cock and speak the west's made-up language	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	jurov dja think this makes a practical difference ?	[23:01]
jurov	ascii says it's "factual"... so i'm asking about the facts	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	decimation the idea is for russian oil to be sold in the manner of oil owned by the us. it doesn't matter who gets paid, as long as the "pay" is in accounts run by thiel, and it all follows kyc etc.	[23:02]
mircea_popescu	same exact play as they're currently trying and failing re bitcoin.	[23:02]
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mircea_popescu	jurov ah yea. well, i agreed with his "it's factual", but i never took an absolute view of this factuality. just, as far as it's worth determining, yeah, that's what it was.	[23:03]
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decimation	jurov: are you referring to those who were shot while rioting in Kiev?	[23:04]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform what is "nazi cock" anywya ?	[23:04]
asciilifeform	the entire 'great ukrs' national concept. created by brits, then picked up by germany, then - usa, into present time.	[23:05]
asciilifeform	the tired old 'cut 'em up into bantustans, make them a language, etc' recipe.	[23:05]
jurov	as opposed to "great russia"	[23:05]
jurov	ascii, you're so incredibly one sided	[23:06]
jurov	russians are orcs, as well	[23:06]
asciilifeform	like them or not - the russians are historically actual, rather than fictional.	[23:06]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so what's the beef with the polish-ukrainian confederacy ? just as actual.	[23:07]
asciilifeform	quite.	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	what am i not following here ?	[23:07]
asciilifeform	except that the modern ukrs aren't a resurrected 'Res Publica Polonia' - they're a cheap muppet of usg.	[23:08]
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mircea_popescu	but this is not the argument you bring.	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	whether they're well organised or not presently has no bearing on whether they at all exist.	[23:09]
asciilifeform	aha	[23:09]
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jurov	donetsk republic are muppets, too	[23:09]
jurov	putins wants strelkov out? okay, off he goes	[23:09]
asciilifeform	this brings up the old discussion of whether the arsonist 'builds' a city	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	which... whatever, just how well they actually exist is reasonably unclear to me. how does slovakia exist or so forth	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	jurov supposedly russia refused them union or somesuch.	[23:09]
jurov	"refused" for now	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	well obviously.	[23:10]
asciilifeform	usg does not have the strength or will to conquer - it merely destroys	[23:10]
jurov	just waiting till it "becomes" inevitable	[23:10]
Azelphur	mircea_popescu: I've accepted that job offer from RagnarDanneskjol btw :)	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	a good for you.	[23:10]
Azelphur	indeed, seems much more my speed, thanks for the recommendation :)	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this is somewhat like saying billy jean does not have the strength or will to form famblies - he merely fucks.	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	well... maybe the girl sucks.	[23:10]
Azelphur	Bitcoin salary, gonna be fun.	[23:10]
asciilifeform	jurov: picture yourself as russian king. do you want to annex ua? if so, for what.	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	bread ?	[23:11]
jurov	asciilifeform "satellite state" says you something?	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	the fact that they were historically more accomplished russians than the muscovy, and earlier so ?	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	the seaside resorts ?	[23:11]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there's correcting khruschev's wandering pencil, and then real conquest	[23:12]
decimation	I guess putin isn't happy with having a 'near abroad' anymore	[23:12]
jurov	so putin should give kurils to japan too	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	lol right.	[23:13]
jurov	the people there want to	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	isn't that like 1/2 of all sub bases in russia ?	[23:13]
asciilifeform	wait there are still people there! lol	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	lol.	[23:13]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the problem with "real" conquest is that it sounds a lot like "let me just put the tip in". what do you mean "real".	[23:13]
asciilifeform	well put it this way - which things you get from conquest, that you can't buy.	[23:14]
asciilifeform	for two decades, the ru and ua mafias had an understanding.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	lotta buttsex with a lot of very scared womenz ?	[23:14]
jurov	utter mess	[23:14]
asciilifeform	when does conquest seem like an appealing answer, to what problems.	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	yes well, no mafia understanding stands forever.	[23:14]
decimation	certainly no one is selling allodial rights to anything these days	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	this happens to be a great thing, it's why mafias are better administrators than constitutions.	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	"At what point will the Russian government decide that Washington’s mendacity, and that of its European puppets and corrupt Western media, render hopeless Russia’s efforts to resolve the situation with diplomacy and unprovocative behavior? "	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	ahahaha herpy-derp.	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	dude, seriously. the propaganda war is a propaganda war.	[23:15]
mircea_popescu	this is like asking "how long will a chess player tolerate the other's crafty artfulness"	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	duh. forever ?	[23:16]
asciilifeform	lol	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	it is the curse of the contemporary postmodern world that most jobs are done by amateurs.	[23:16]
asciilifeform	i'm not even convinced that the ceremony where ua voted for 'independence' happened as advertised.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	these fuckwits couldn't qualify for a driver job for the classic propaganda spinners of a century ago	[23:16]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform join the crowd that has similar doubts about you know... bush's election.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	so what of it ?	[23:17]
decimation	it is interesting how russian propaganda took a noticeable right-wing turn sometime around 5 years ago	[23:17]
asciilifeform	ah nothing in particular	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	who's about to invade the us on account of you know, it botching the bush election ?	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	and conversely, once i'm about to invade the us, you can bet your sweet ass it will be to rectify ancient evils	[23:17]
asciilifeform	just that derpers going about 'vox populi, vox dei' are tiresome.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	such as that, or whatever you may feel like.	[23:17]
decimation	someone in the russian intel service decided that the 'useful idiots' on the left weren't so useful anymore	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	decimation no, it's the direct effect of capitalism.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	people once allowed free markets turn their ideas against the us idiocy.	[23:18]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00060233 = 2.5298 BTC [-]	[23:18]
decimation	because they always choose the alternative right?	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	which is why free markets are so important, and why "regulated" us-style so pernicious.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	not just that, tho prolly a large part.	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	but also you know, many things that constitute th "reasonable" for they locked up into a tower / locked up into a 12yo body / locked away in that early phase of sleep melt away as ridiculous once the full mind is awake	[23:19]
decimation	this is true	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	i mean i clearly recall ths experience where i was falling asleep, and my through process in the remainder part of the brain was "oh my god what if i don't know how to open the door anymore"	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	literally, that.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	had a good lol when i woke up.	[23:20]
*	asciilifeform experiences this regularly.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	now- this is exactly the thought process of your run of the mill us citizen, or otherwise socialist derp.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	"must has the state for i can't open the fucking door"	[23:20]
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*	asciilifeform chalks it up to REM paralysis	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	but once some experience with doors is gained... well... lol. ok nm, moving on to saner approaches.	[23:21]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yeah it's prolly quite related.	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	this is the life of the "theoretician", ie, the guy living in an artificial environment surviving on "grants", and of the child (the prototype of all contemporary scientists - he writes grant applications for to study the new xbox)	[23:22]
decimation	mircea_popescu: there's a good story about that in the podcast link I put up yesterday: "But even without Russ's lectures, people began to recognize the potential for the Tragedy of the Commons. And quite quickly formed Cattlemans' Associations--the kind of thing that Elinor Ostrom would, you know, love to talk about; and I've talked about it with her. Russ: These are voluntary restrictions on the use of resources, not government,	[23:23]
decimation	right? Guest: Government wasn't even a--close to Montana at the time these were formed, these were people saying, 'Gee, our cattle are mixing with one another and are breeding and maybe we don't want that. And if you put all your cattle where I put mine, there will be a tragedy of the commons.' "	[23:23]
decimation	ranchers in ungoverned lands just got together and figured out how to solve the problem of overgrazing/herd mixing, without any state involved	[23:23]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12300 @ 0.0006059 = 7.4526 BTC [+]	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	the key ingredient ?	[23:24]
mircea_popescu	armed ranchers. armed ranchers who weren'tfrom the ozarks, but had heard of the ozarks.	[23:25]
jurov	actually, does anyone knows how hunters and gatherers stumbled upon this horrid idea of having a state?	[23:25]
asciilifeform	jurov: j.c.scott. 'the art of not being governed.'	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	jurov yes. it goes like this : if me and my friends meet you and your friends, we'll want to fight.	[23:25]
decimation	yeah they had a pretty close approximation to 'allodial rule'	[23:25]
asciilifeform	^ sweeping masterwork on the subject	[23:25]
jurov	if the former arrangement is superior, why does the history repeat?	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	if i have more friends than you, you're fucked, even if you may be better than me.	[23:25]
mircea_popescu	and so there it goes.	[23:25]
asciilifeform	see also:	[23:26]
asciilifeform	!s you and the atomic bomb	[23:26]
assbot	4 results for 'you and the atomic bomb' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=you+and+the+atomic+bomb	[23:26]
jurov	so... you're all dreaming of stuff that works only in sparsely populated land?	[23:28]
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mircea_popescu	jurov no, it works fine just as long as one has the upper hand.	[23:29]
mircea_popescu	and until such a time, one breaks the hands of the opposition and beats it over the head with them until rendered.	[23:30]
jurov	again, that works best on sparsely populated land	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	if "best" is defined specifically so as to favour that, sure.	[23:31]
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mircea_popescu	if not, inamushc as it's the only thing that works, it works best anytime anywhere.	[23:31]
decimation	jurov: certainly a few hundred years ago the major population centers of europe were ruled in a 'non-populist' way	[23:32]
decimation	I blame the french.	[23:32]
jurov	decimation dunno, in latin hungary there was always a struggle between a king and nobility	[23:33]
jurov	king had to be quite a populist	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	but nobility did not.	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	there's never going to be a solution for "all people", mind. what's at stake is for the solution to exist for the right people.	[23:34]
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decimation	jurov: and I suspect that the solution was not to give every breathing biped a nanoslice of power	[23:35]
mircea_popescu	and gauleiters, or for that matter bureaucrats of any persuasion, can never be the right people.	[23:35]
jurov	decimation but they do have nanoslice of power regardless	[23:36]
jurov	if they decide	[23:36]
jurov	to use it	[23:36]
decimation	jurov: that's true, they can always riot/subvert, etc, which ultimately puts a lid on the king's/noble's power	[23:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38451 @ 0.00060679 = 23.3317 BTC [+] {3}	[23:36]
decimation	but this usually doesn't end well for anyone ie Napoleon	[23:37]
xmj	hmmm	[23:37]
decimation	or Caesar (Julius) for that matter	[23:37]
xmj	if you guys want exposure to some fun,	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	these are both bad examples.	[23:37]
xmj	look into "Aristocratic Egalitarianism"	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	you're thinking sylla	[23:37]
xmj	and Propertarianism.	[23:37]
xmj	you might like it.	[23:37]
decimation	yeah sylla pretty much put an end to the 'old republic	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	decimation but importantly, on the sort of populist grounds contemplated here,	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	or else the grachi	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	caesar is not much for an example. similarly napoleon, minus his pr, was not jacobin at all.	[23:39]
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decimation	no, but my point is that destroying the structure of power typically empowers some megalomaniac to step in and fix things	[23:40]
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decimation	of course one could also argue that the reason the french/roman aristocracy fell is because they sucked and had it coming	[23:41]
asciilifeform	the chinese, with their 'mandate of heaven' - get it.	[23:42]
decimation	asciilifeform: but that's effectively a capitulation to the idea that the permanent state is a necessity when humans live 'at scale'	[23:45]
asciilifeform	'mandate of heaven' ?	[23:45]
decimation	someone needs to be mandated right?	[23:46]
asciilifeform	usually discussed in terms of losing it.	[23:46]
asciilifeform	that is, if king is overthrown, clearly he was unfit.	[23:46]
Apocalyptic	how so ?	[23:46]
decimation	right but then the next king takes over (usually with a different style), not an outbreak of anarchy-capitalism or whatever	[23:46]
asciilifeform	can be extended to 'if you end up sucking kingly cock, clearly you were unfit to maintain your anarchowhatever pastoral reservation.'	[23:47]
decimation	heh, as the jews say, if you take the king's shekels you take the king's shackles	[23:48]
asciilifeform	not a political statement, really a physical 'captain obvious.' -- 'if you went splat, clearly your parachute was inadequate.'	[23:48]
jurov	xmj from propertarianism.com "Flourishing requires that we suppress free riding in all its forms." << who decides about free riding and who's gonna supress it?	[23:50]
xmj	they have that elaborated there too	[23:51]
asciilifeform	jurov: gotta love the american 'anarcho-something-alists' who prattle on about 'rights' and a grandiose 'we' who 'shall do' things.	[23:51]
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asciilifeform	jurov: i like to tell them, 'come back when you've invented a pocket neutron bomb that can be made from sticks and grass. until then, enjoy the state (tm) .'	[23:53]
decimation	asciilifeform: agreed. to me, rule under a wise king/baron/whatever is much more likely to approach their 'libertarian' ideals than statelessness	[23:54]
jurov	it seems to me as some kkind of ultracalvinism... without religious adherence to these principles whole thing falls apart	[23:54]
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asciilifeform	jurov: back when the 'rights' folks believed in god, they at least had a sound psychiatric reason for pretending to have the pocket neutron bomb without actually having it	[23:55]
asciilifeform	'respect my rights (tm) or god will zap'	[23:55]
asciilifeform	but today, 'respect my rights because i have rights'	[23:56]
chetty	religion does have purpose	[23:58]
asciilifeform	sometimes it's a 'respect my rights!11! or usg will set your house on fire.'	[23:58]
xmj	jurov: well it shouldn't	[23:58]
decimation	asciilifeform: as a Christian I find these 'godless anarcho-whatevers' to be amusing because they want to make usg into their god	[23:58]
xmj	jurov: ideally we'll come up with a set of self-perpetuating institutions.	[23:58]
asciilifeform	this generally works if opponent lives in a house usg has a habit, or otherwise might like, to set on fire - and could use pretext.	[23:58]
asciilifeform	(why usg needs pretext? has own internal rituals.)	[23:59]
chetty	people seem to need religion, they drop one, they invent another, by a different name ..greenies for instance	[23:59]
asciilifeform	!s morloch	[23:59]
assbot	3 results for 'morloch' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=morloch	[23:59]

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