Forum logs for 06 Aug 2012
Saturday, 23 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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| SultanFarooq | Hi | [06:26] |
| SultanFarooq | Anybody wanna trade bitcoins using bank transfer in uk? | [06:26] |
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| mircea_popescu | that was a nice name nevertheless. | [06:31] |
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| Amiga4000 | ;;bc,convert eur | [08:30] |
| gribble | 1 BTC = 10.79991 U.S. dollars = 8.72578977 Euros | [08:30] |
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| mircea_popescu | so i'd say basicalyl the mtgox market consists of timers. | [09:29] |
| mircea_popescu | why is it so hard for people to accept that it's pointless to try and time markets ? | [09:29] |
| * | Now talking on #bitcoin-otc-eu | [09:59] |
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| mircea_popescu | o hey brendio, long time. | [10:13] |
| brendio | hi | [10:13] |
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| mircea_popescu | duh power failure. | [10:24] |
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| youknowitstrue | any mods from btc-otc in here? | [13:29] |
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| mircea_popescu | anyone with ~60 bux in moneybookers ? | [22:45] |
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| xorred | mircea_popescu: paypal | [22:46] |
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| mircea_popescu | does anyone even take paypal !? | [22:56] |
| xorred | I give. noone takes. | [22:58] |
| xorred | wtf. | [22:58] |
| xorred | it's been around for years | [22:58] |
| mircea_popescu | it's a shitty service nobody likes and nobody trusts. | [23:01] |
| nanotube | xorred: it's because of chargebacks. | [23:03] |
| nanotube | they're great for a buyer, crap for seller. | [23:03] |
| xorred | that's when you're a fraud and dealing with fraudsters too | [23:03] |
| nanotube | well, fraudsters like to buy bitcoins. | [23:04] |
| nanotube | pay with stolen paypal, get coins, then seller gets chargebacked and screwed. | [23:04] |
| nanotube | (or even, buyer falsely claims it was stolen, still gets money back because paypal almost always sides with buyer) | [23:04] |
| xorred | even a retarded person can verify the other side of the conversation | [23:04] |
| nanotube | well, good luck. :) | [23:05] |
| nanotube | i don't think paypal accepts irc logs as evidence. | [23:05] |
| nanotube | not to mention that trading bitcoin is against their tos. | [23:05] |
| xorred | you don't have any ideas how to check if someone is who they say they is? | [23:05] |
| xorred | are* | [23:06] |
| nanotube | note again: even someone who is using his own paypal account can falsely claim unauthorized access and initiate a chargeback. | [23:06] |
| nanotube | note further that if someone paid with paypal balance, which he received from a scammer which then gets charged back, the chargeback will propagate to you. | [23:07] |
| xorred | and get their account deleted for buying btc yea right | [23:07] |
| nanotube | been known to happen. | [23:07] |
| xorred | indeed | [23:07] |
| nanotube | anyway, just giving you the reasons why people are reluctant to take paypal. if you manage to convince someone to take paypal, well, good on you. :) | [23:08] |
| xorred | do you really think | [23:08] |
| xorred | you're giving me reasons? that I didn't know about? | [23:09] |
| xorred | what makes you feel the need to tell someone something they already know | [23:09] |
| nanotube | well, your surprise as to why nobody takes paypal suggested to me that you didn't know. | [23:09] |
| nanotube | [23:09] | |
| nanotube | [23:09] | |
| xorred | I buy and sell using paypal for years | [23:09] |
| xorred | HERE is where people are all scared like pussies | [23:09] |
| nanotube | my apologies if i misinterpreted your wtf as surprise. | [23:09] |
| xorred | it makes no sense to me, even knowing the reasons | [23:10] |
| xorred | the risk for me is BIGGER | [23:10] |
| xorred | than your lousy ltc / btc | [23:10] |
| nanotube | how? bitcoins are irreversible. | [23:10] |
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| xorred | as I said. The risk for me is bigger | [23:10] |
| nanotube | as i said, how? | [23:10] |
| xorred | getting my account locked / deleted | [23:11] |
| nanotube | well, that risk is in your control. if you don't initiate too many chargebacks, and don't say 'bitcoin' in your payment messages, they won't have any reason to lock your account. | [23:12] |
| xorred | like the other side won't say "bitcoin" to defend themselves | [23:13] |
| xorred | cut the crap | [23:13] |
| nanotube | defend against what? | [23:13] |
| xorred | the chargeback | [23:13] |
| nanotube | so you say you plan to charge back? | [23:13] |
| xorred | if I do a chargeback, I'll cause the other person to accuse me of buying bitcoin to lock my account | [23:14] |
| nanotube | why would you do a chargeback after receiving coins? | [23:14] |
| xorred | stfu you know what I ment. shit. I hate when trolls rise | [23:14] |
| xorred | read carefully | [23:14] |
| nanotube | haha me too | [23:14] |
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| nanotube | you can always make sure that you receive the coin, by using escrow. | [23:14] |
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| nanotube | it's the other person that can't ever be sure he won't receive a chargeback. | [23:15] |
| nanotube | anyway, i don't suppose i have any information to impart upon you that you don't already know... so i'll stop waisting your time. | [23:16] |
| nanotube | gl. | [23:16] |
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| xorred | all these years, all these sales, it's that I come here and see all this crap and paranoia against paypal chargebacks. Like you guys invented the fear of chargebacks, for fucks sake | [23:17] |
| copumpkin | wat | [23:17] |
| copumpkin | xorred: you only just joined the community. It's like you come here and you suddenly know all the risks :) | [23:18] |
| copumpkin | we have to deal with people crying daily about how they used paypal and got screwed | [23:18] |
| xorred | I know that's retardedly simple to verify and see if the other person is trustworthy or not | [23:18] |
| copumpkin | oh, I guess everyone here is just retarded then, only explanation :) | [23:19] |
| copumpkin | I'm glad you have it all figured out | [23:19] |
| xorred | no, I fugure the background checks you / others did were nonexistent | [23:19] |
| copumpkin | yeah, clearly | [23:19] |
| copumpkin | only explanation | [23:19] |
| nanotube | maybe you can share how you verify the trustworthiness of your potential counterparty, xorred ? | [23:19] |
| nanotube | it is possible we have something interesting to learn from your technique. | [23:19] |
| xorred | yes, only explanation | [23:19] |
| chmod755 | ;;google nanotube trustworthy | [23:20] |
| gribble | Are DC mobility extractions for nanostructures trustworthy ...: | [23:20] |
|
| xorred | yes, if the other party is an author or a book and is established online as a trustworthy person, it shitsimple to trust them | [23:20] |
| copumpkin | xorred: not at all, since you don't know who they "are" | [23:20] |
| xorred | online as in Online, not in here | [23:20] |
| copumpkin | you know who they claim to be | [23:20] |
| nanotube | xorred: well yes, some people do have well established online identities. | [23:20] |
| copumpkin | we see stolen paypal accounts all the time | [23:20] |
| xorred | so you can't verify the person? | [23:20] |
| nanotube | xorred: and i have traded paypal based on verification of such information. | [23:20] |
| copumpkin | how would you? | [23:21] |
| copumpkin | if someone isn't famous | [23:21] |
| xorred | call them on skype ask them to show their ID on video | [23:21] |
| nanotube | but most people do not | [23:21] |
| xorred | ridiculously simple | [23:21] |
| copumpkin | xorred: how does that help? | [23:21] |
| xorred | verify the name on the id to their claim / paypal name | [23:21] |
| copumpkin | if they're in another country, are you going to prosecute them over a failed $50? | [23:21] |
| chmod755 | y | [23:21] |
| copumpkin | there is overhead to doing this | [23:21] |
| xorred | so you guys invented the lack of trust on paypal | [23:21] |
| xorred | you have any idea how long paypal has been doing business? | [23:21] |
| xorred | right? | [23:21] |
| copumpkin | okay, you're just being stupid | [23:22] |
| chmod755 | xorred: put a shoe one your head and show ID on video pls | [23:22] |
| copumpkin | not going to bother :) | [23:22] |
| xorred | no I'm not | [23:22] |
| chmod755 | *on | [23:22] |
| copumpkin | this isn't about paypal | [23:22] |
| copumpkin | it's about risk management | [23:22] |
| copumpkin | and fundamental mismatch in protections given by a payment system | [23:22] |
| xorred | I've been dealing with paypal for 5 years. I come here, and I see paypal banishment all over like it's crazy | [23:22] |
| copumpkin | we don't banish it | [23:23] |
| xorred | not a single chargeback in my entire history | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | people just choose to not use it | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | every single person | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | you're welcome to try using it | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | I dare you to sell bitcoins for paypal | [23:23] |
| xorred | well sorry, but all my clients are paying with paypal so... | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | well, I guess fuck them :) | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | because you need a counterparty to do business | [23:23] |
| xorred | why don't they not trust me? | [23:23] |
| copumpkin | and if you're offering turdcoins as payment, nobody wants them | [23:23] |
| nanotube | buyers don't need to trust. sellers need to trust. | [23:23] |
| xorred | they all trust me with not a single fear of chargeback | [23:23] |
| xorred | that's 5 years dudes | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | it's the seller's prerogative what they want to sell for | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | your paypal account isn't holy | [23:24] |
| chmod755 | ^ | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | you'll just find, after trying for weeks | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | that not a single person will want to touch it | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | you can get angry | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | or you can get smart | [23:24] |
| xorred | get smart and do what? | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | get smart and use something that people use | [23:24] |
| xorred | I can't go to the bank every time some schmuck wants to sell btc | [23:24] |
| copumpkin | you're basically parading into kenya | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | and saying "why IS NOBODY ACCEPTING MY FUCKING EUROS" | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | THEY WORK FINE IN EUROPE | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | YOU ASSHOLES | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | people don't want your euros | [23:25] |
| xorred | kenya will die to have my euros ;) | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | people don't want your papyal | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | well, pick something where that doesn't apply | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | people don't want your paypal | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | it's as simple as that | [23:25] |
| xorred | quote: "I can't go to the bank every time some schmuck wants to sell btc" | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | you can bitch | [23:25] |
| copumpkin | or you can do business | [23:25] |
| xorred | I want simplicity | [23:26] |
| copumpkin | the market doesn't care what you want | [23:26] |
| copumpkin | somehow, the rest of us adapted | [23:26] |
| chmod755 | ^ | [23:26] |
| copumpkin | a businessman is trying to make deals | [23:26] |
| xorred | well the market better invent some EASY way of trading then | [23:26] |
| copumpkin | he doesn't throw a tantrum | [23:26] |
| copumpkin | the rest of us survive just fine | [23:26] |
| chmod755 | there are many easy ways to trade | [23:26] |
| xorred | if all my money are in paypal | [23:27] |
| xorred | what's your easy way? | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | then you're screwed | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | I'm sorry | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | you can't do business here | [23:27] |
| chmod755 | unless you mean easy as in insecure | [23:27] |
| chmod755 | those businesses tend to fail | [23:27] |
| * | Stove (~Stove@178-116-204-28.access.telenet.be) has left #bitcoin-otc-eu | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | xorred: note that "you can't do business here" isn't my decree | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | it's an empirical statement | [23:27] |
| xorred | I'll be happy to paypal money into some secure service | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | I'm telling you that you will try and fail | [23:27] |
| xorred | if it existed | [23:27] |
| chmod755 | xD | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | the middleman for that service will get screwed | [23:27] |
| copumpkin | that's the fundamental truth of it | [23:28] |
| chmod755 | virwox, horrible fees | [23:28] |
| xorred | not unless the middleman is me - I'll only accept traders after a guarantee | [23:28] |
| chmod755 | like 20% in fees | [23:28] |
| xorred | they put $100 on deposit, and can trade $100 more | [23:28] |
| copumpkin | we have seen newcome after newcomer try to accept paypal or credit cards for bitcoins | [23:28] |
| copumpkin | every single one gives up after a while | [23:28] |
| xorred | if they screw someone with $100, they lose $100 | [23:28] |
| copumpkin | because of the degree of fraud | [23:28] |
| xorred | idioticly simple | [23:28] |
| copumpkin | xorred: how do you put $100 on deposit? | [23:28] |
| copumpkin | via paypal? :) | [23:28] |
| xorred | one wants to trade $100, they deposit $200 | [23:28] |
| copumpkin | "oh sorry paypal, some evil hacker broke into my account and put $200 into this guy's account" | [23:29] |
| xorred | via "gift" | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | that is no more secure | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | we see this shit get charged back all the time | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | otherwise any evil hacker would just "gift" money all the time | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | it'd be a huge gaping security hole | [23:29] |
| xorred | well somehow, the MILLIONS of e-commerce sites out there survive, don't you think it's SO STRANGE? | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | yes, because they are legal entities that have recourse | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | they have proof of delivery | [23:29] |
| copumpkin | and are not against the TOS | [23:30] |
| xorred | well thats true | [23:30] |
| copumpkin | what are you going to say? | [23:30] |
| copumpkin | "uhh, I did ship this bitcoin, check txn id ajkalsjkaljklaj5kl2521" | [23:30] |
| chmod755 | and finally they're not selling a pseudonymous currency.... | [23:30] |
| copumpkin | they'll say "uh, that's against TOS. No money for you and we're shutting down your account" | [23:30] |
| xorred | well.... all my money are in paypal. so fuck me | [23:30] |
| copumpkin | this isn't spite | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | it's people getting burned, literally daily | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | all individually deciding not to do it | [23:31] |
| * | crouge has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | because paypal does not offer the protection we need | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | like in #bitcoin-otc | [23:31] |
| * | crouge (~crouge@user215.77-105-227.netatonce.net) has joined #bitcoin-otc-eu | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | even yesterday someone got a chargeback | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | these aren't stupid people | [23:31] |
| chmod755 | xorred: imho paypal isn't even easier than bitcoin | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | they're people who think they know better than us | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | and can use "gift" | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | or shit like that | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | and it never works | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | for the past year I've watched angry people join and insist on using paypal | [23:31] |
| copumpkin | every single one of them gets screwed | [23:32] |
| chmod755 | "coinpal" | [23:32] |
| chmod755 | ... | [23:32] |
| copumpkin | so yeah, you can throw a tantrum, or you can try to solve the problem | [23:32] |
| copumpkin | I'm done ranting :) | [23:32] |
| xorred | I bought btc over paypal already | [23:33] |
| xorred | and didn't get screwed | [23:33] |
| copumpkin | you're not the one getting screwed | [23:33] |
| copumpkin | the other guy is lucky you're honest | [23:33] |
| chmod755 | ^ | [23:33] |
| xorred | not lucky - it's NORMAL | [23:33] |
| copumpkin | he'll probably get screwed later | [23:33] |
| copumpkin | xorred: not around here it isn't | [23:33] |
| copumpkin | seriously, can you poke a hole in something I said earlier? | [23:33] |
| xorred | well you're all criminals as the news agencies say then lol | [23:33] |
| copumpkin | yeah, that's it | [23:34] |
| copumpkin | you're clearly more interested in using paypal than using bitcoin. That just means the overhead for getting started is too high for you :) you should try again in a few years | [23:34] |
| xorred | no I'm just pissed cause I'm used to simplicity | [23:35] |
| xorred | technology is meant to make your life easier | [23:35] |
| xorred | not 10x harder | [23:35] |
| copumpkin | yeah, bitcoin is anything but simple right now | [23:35] |
| copumpkin | that's not its own fault | [23:35] |
| copumpkin | it's a fundamentally different model from all existing payment systems | [23:35] |
| xorred | well it's a serious hindrance to it's widespread use | [23:35] |
| copumpkin | yes | [23:35] |
| copumpkin | you can bitch | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | but there is no single "bitcoin committee" | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | so either fix it | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | or don't use it | [23:36] |
| xorred | yes, make your grandma use / generate bitcoin / etc | [23:36] |
| xorred | she'll die before buying lunch | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | yes, that isn't the goal | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | as I said | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | fix it or don't use it | [23:36] |
| xorred | well the goal is for bitcoin to get widespread yes? | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | there's no single entity making these decisiosns | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | yes, but there isn't a single entity whose goal that is | [23:36] |
| xorred | hwo the fuck is this happening if it's damn hard to work with it | [23:36] |
| copumpkin | because some of us have more patience than you do | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | and make lots of money doing so | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | it's an emerging market | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | treat it as one | [23:37] |
| xorred | well I can do a SEPA...... | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | banks opening offices in emerging markets don't expect to prance in and do everything like they were doing at home | [23:37] |
| xorred | I can send money to a swift / iban address | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | they're there to make money | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | because they took the risk of moving in and putting in the extra work to get in early | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | lots of people doing SEPA in here | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | I know sturles does it | [23:37] |
| copumpkin | the thing is, and it's frustrating for people who know they're honest (but nobody else does), once you get trusted around here, you _can_ use paypal | [23:38] |
| copumpkin | nanotube and I could easily buy things for paypal, because we are well known | [23:38] |
| copumpkin | this is a case of the bad guys making it worse for everyone | [23:39] |
| sturles | xorred: http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php?eitherthing=EUR | [23:39] |
| vodka | [ #bitcoin-otc order book ] - http://bitcoin-otc.com | [23:39] |
| copumpkin | but there's not much to do about it | [23:39] |
| xorred | wow. the bitcoin datadir is 3GB | [23:39] |
| copumpkin | there are whole online markets dedicated to exchanging stolen paypal credentials/accounts | [23:39] |
| copumpkin | and identities | [23:39] |
| copumpkin | and such | [23:39] |
| copumpkin | fake ID cards are a dime a dozne | [23:40] |
| copumpkin | especially over a shitty webcam | [23:40] |
| copumpkin | xorred: yeah, people are working on ways to make it smaller | [23:40] |
| chmod755 | http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/paypal.com << comment section | [23:40] |
| vodka | [ paypal.com | WOT Reputation Scorecard | WOT (Web of Trust) ] - http://www.mywot.com | [23:41] |
| xorred | alright I'm out. Will buy btc over bank transfer. | [23:46] |
| * | xorred has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | [23:46] |
| jcpham | +1 all that copumpkin text | [23:51] |
| mircea_popescu | this was a very instructive waste of half hour. | [23:57] |
| * | chmod755 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | [23:59] |
| mircea_popescu | but i didn't like copumpkin's kenya example | [23:59] |
| mircea_popescu | it is exaclty the opposite : some kenyan is parading in europe and demanding we accept his pula | [23:59] |
| mircea_popescu | or wtf he's using back home. | [23:59] |
| mircea_popescu | WHERE OBAMA COMES FROM!!! ITS FAMOUS! | [23:59] |
| copumpkin | lol, I was trying to pick the more established option as the parading one | [23:59] |
Category: Logs
