Forum logs for 02 Mar 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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deedbot- [Qntra] A Miner Problem - [00:02]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i had this exact same experience when making the alphago bet. only difference is that malleation was involved. [00:12]
asciilifeform the days-old high-S tx was mined ~immediately~ after i broadcast the doublespend low-S. [00:13]
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asciilifeform miners - are vermin. [00:14]
asciilifeform and understand exactly one language. [00:14]
asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu [00:16]
gribble The operation succeeded. [00:16]
assbot A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( ) [00:16]
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mircea_popescu BingoBoingo for soime reason indentation's off. [00:22]
mod6 << i usually just modify the rotor script so that it just builds bitcoind with all of the necessary environment vars set, but comment out the building of BDB/SSL/Boost. The re-compile usually takes a few minutes. Not more than say 15. [00:22]
assbot Logged on 01-03-2016 08:54:01; ben_vulpes: i am also curious to hear about how long the bitcoind recompile is in your various workflows, asciilifeform, phf, mod6, punkman, jurov [00:22]
mod6 Again, this is for -recompile- only. Not for initial build. Not for newbs either. [00:22]
mod6 mircea_popescu: interesting day re-betbet txn & miner witholding. [00:23]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: It's how the html you submitted parses. Looks legible even if some line spacing is weird. I just assumed you did that for emphasis. [00:23]
mircea_popescu mod6 quite. [00:23]
asciilifeform mod6: i have exactly that script. [00:24]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo you have two uls in there in succession, wipe one [00:24]
mod6 the 99997 one were were talkin about yesterday asciilifeform ? [00:24]
mod6 or the rotor script? [00:24]
asciilifeform the latter. [00:24]
punkman mircea_popescu: were the disappeared transactions low-s btw? [00:24]
mod6 ah cool - yeah maybe post in here at some point. builders may fnd it helpful if they haven't made their own already. [00:25]
mircea_popescu punkman yes. [00:25]
mod6 asciilifeform: also, cool work you started with gossip in asm on a eth card. [00:26]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: ty, fxd [00:26]
asciilifeform mod6: long ago [00:26]
asciilifeform it is gathering dust sadly [00:26]
mod6 ah. ok, just looking for more time or for someone to pick up where you left off? [00:27]
mod6 << seems ok. at least a guy can rebroadcast. [00:28]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 00:11:53; kakobrekla: i guess its time to add 'raw hex tx' data for re-broadcasting to bitbet resolved bets [00:28]
mircea_popescu it's certainly a step in the right direction [00:28]
mircea_popescu (rub miner's nose in their doo-doo) [00:28]
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mod6 yeah, this stuff has gone too far. [00:28]
asciilifeform kakobrekla has it. [00:28]
asciilifeform and maybe time for high-S miner?! [00:29]
BingoBoingo !up _FeltPen [00:29]
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_FeltPen Thank you. [00:29]
punkman pen goes where [00:30]
_FeltPen where the sword wont? [00:30]
mod6 in pooper. [00:30]
BingoBoingo ;;google buttcoins nao [00:31]
gribble They really are Buttcoins nao on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: ; February 2013 on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: ; Bitcoin on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: [00:31]
mod6 weird, i thought that was in '12 [00:31]
_FeltPen too dark [00:33]
mod6 im gonna re-read that whole thread [00:36]
punkman [00:37]
mod6 oh there's even a qntra post. [00:37]
assbot [bitcoin-dev] Soft fork for BIPs 68, 112, and 113 ... ( ) [00:37]
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punkman interesting [00:50]
assbot [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Vaults. ... ( ) [00:50]
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punkman [00:59]
assbot ... ( ) [00:59]
BingoBoingo Perhaps there is a new idiocy inhereted though the "Core" client fork [01:02]
assbot Bitcoin Block Explorer - ... ( ) [01:02]
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asciilifeform <<<<<< [01:10]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 03:49:28; punkman: interesting [01:10]
assbot Logged on 13-11-2014 19:06:33; asciilifeform: bip64, aside from complicating the protocol and giving relevance to the gavin shitgang, is also a jam-tomorrow chumpatronic engineering structural element [01:10]
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BingoBoingo [01:15]
assbot Probably 51+ Percent Collusion And Cartel Action : Bitcoin ... ( ) [01:15]
ben_vulpes mod6: this is '' in the rotor tarball [01:18]
asciilifeform aha. [01:20]
asciilifeform i still use it. [01:20]
punkman bip64? [01:21]
ben_vulpes << with phf's patch (are you going to post that to the ML or shall i?), my post-clean compile takes 1m 16s [01:21]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 03:20:58; mod6: << i usually just modify the rotor script so that it just builds bitcoind with all of the necessary environment vars set, but comment out the building of BDB/SSL/Boost. The re-compile usually takes a few minutes. Not more than say 15. [01:21]
asciilifeform punkman: ? [01:21]
ben_vulpes on a 2.66 GHz IC2Duo. [01:22]
asciilifeform punkman: the timelock thing [01:22]
ben_vulpes i have no idea if this is an abnormally long or short time [01:22]
asciilifeform and in general all variations on the 'locked coins' crapola [01:22]
asciilifeform it is all for one thing. [01:22]
ben_vulpes 5s after adding a printf to shiva.cpp [01:23]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform lemme guess, "consumers expect" ? [01:23]
ben_vulpes i have no idea if this is fast or slow [01:23]
mod6 ben_vulpes: ahh. ok [01:24]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: astonishing, how the same old crud comes back again, again. [01:25]
mod6 <+ben_vulpes> << with phf's patch (are you going to post that to the ML or shall i?), my post-clean compile takes 1m 16s << im not aware of phf's patch. i did recompile with shiva when it was first introduced, didn't add or subtract any compile time as far as I could tell. [01:26]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 03:20:58; mod6: << i usually just modify the rotor script so that it just builds bitcoind with all of the necessary environment vars set, but comment out the building of BDB/SSL/Boost. The re-compile usually takes a few minutes. Not more than say 15. [01:26]
ben_vulpes mod6: phf dumped a patch in the logs for compiling under gcc [01:27]
ben_vulpes works like a chaaaarm [01:27]
asciilifeform waiwut [01:27]
asciilifeform you mean, under clang? [01:28]
ben_vulpes er yes [01:29]
ben_vulpes sorry [01:29]
ben_vulpes clang [01:29]
ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: 'parsimoniously' [01:29]
BingoBoingo what should it be? [01:29]
ben_vulpes it /should/ be 'parsimoniously' [01:30]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: nm, fxd [01:30]
mod6 ah, ok. will have to check it out. [01:33]
mod6 anyway, gn all. will check back in later. [01:33]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: why would the cartel have picked up the original 0 fee transaction instead of the feeful later? [01:34]
mircea_popescu ftr ben_vulpes the c spelling is antiquated but english! [01:34]
ben_vulpes since when is english a supported language [01:34]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes i have no idea. [01:34]
ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: plz to replace 'o' with '0' in my comment if possible [01:35]
ben_vulpes << you know, if the cost of running a pool is only 1% over subsidy + fees... [01:36]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 03:27:37; asciilifeform: and maybe time for high-S miner?! [01:36]
mircea_popescu on what miners ben_vulpes ? [01:37]
ben_vulpes rental miners [01:37]
mircea_popescu rented from... whom ? bitfury ? [01:37]
ben_vulpes this was a thread?! [01:37]
asciilifeform l0l! [01:37]
mircea_popescu samsung ? the fabled garage miner that hasn't existed since 2013 ? [01:37]
ben_vulpes are there no hashrentiers in the wot? [01:37]
mircea_popescu bitcoin got a problem, and it ain't no stinkin' "scalability". au contraire. [01:38]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes understand, this isn't a field that takes well to distribution. [01:38]
asciilifeform i did warn, re mining. [01:38]
ben_vulpes the fiat competition was supposed to solve this, but unfortunately the trumpenreich is just TOO GODDAMN INCOMPETENT TO EVEN COMPETE WITH THE CHICOMS [01:38]
mircea_popescu pretty much the only way to handle centralization in mining as it is designed is through periodically picking up the fattest pig and throwing it through a glass pane. [01:38]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes aha. the americans did what they do best - lost. [01:39]
mircea_popescu fabulously, utterly, completely, 18 months they're wiped. [01:39]
ben_vulpes gl0rious v1ctory! [01:39]
ben_vulpes as reported in the grey whore! [01:39]
mircea_popescu and now we got a problem. [01:39]
* ben_vulpes experimenting with two-line popescu/datstoievsky fusions [01:40]
ben_vulpes or however you spell your name [01:40]
mircea_popescu lmao [01:40]
asciilifeform ben_vulpes is drinkng? [01:40]
ben_vulpes no less than usual [01:40]
mircea_popescu a problem which to my eye looms a lot larger than whatever, "the last time english speaker wrote usable code was before they had electric typewriters" [01:41]
ben_vulpes ( asciilifeform: 'markoving') [01:41]
mircea_popescu BingoBoingo so is teh buttcoin crowd all giddy with excited shock ? [01:42]
asciilifeform 'in my country there is problem...' (tm) (r) ('borat') [01:42]
BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Haven't really noticed it yet [01:42]
ben_vulpes << help [01:47]
assbot Satoshi ... ( ) [01:47]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13000 @ 0.00056821 = 7.3867 BTC [-] [01:47]
ben_vulpes double right angles means 'put this value over here', right? but how does it make sense to put nBits into...24? [01:47]
* ben_vulpes hums 'throw the jew down the well' [01:48]
mircea_popescu doesn't it mean "shift bits by this many" ? [01:52]
punkman you can never know with c++ :P [01:52]
mircea_popescu it's either "shift bits by this many", "output to this entity" or else "pleasure my wife" [01:52]
ben_vulpes i have had two beers and a glass of wine since 5pm and none of that has made me nearly as ill as this line of cpp [01:53]
punkman except someone overrode "pleasure my wife" and it's now "rape my mouth with 12 inch dildo" [01:53]
ben_vulpes aaaaa [01:53]
ben_vulpes right because '>>' can be overridden at the...object(?) level in c++ [01:54]
hanbot hey mircea_popescu, is it okay if i defer this month's pc4 report and combine in april? [01:54]
ben_vulpes hanbot has sensitive bets in flight?! [01:54]
mircea_popescu hanbot alright. [01:54]
punkman bitbet idea: "will mpif find a new PC in 2016?" [01:54]
ben_vulpes punkman: lol [01:54]
mircea_popescu punkman we were always at war with mouth and dildoasia! [01:55]
hanbot thanks. [01:55]
ben_vulpes and have always been allies with buttlandia [01:55]
ben_vulpes ugh [01:56]
ben_vulpes were simple sensible human mathematics too dirty for satoshi and company? [01:56]
mircea_popescu it's not the c way [01:57]
ben_vulpes b-but nBits is an int [01:58]
punkman [01:58]
assbot Bit Twiddling Hacks ... ( ) [01:58]
ben_vulpes NO [02:00]
ben_vulpes THIS IS WRONG [02:00]
ben_vulpes bit twiddling for motherfucking arithmetic? [02:00]
ben_vulpes c++ is an american programming language all right [02:00]
ben_vulpes fucking poverty of abstractions [02:01]
BingoBoingo Starfish speaks [02:05]
assbot A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( ) [02:05]
ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: starfish? rbf? [02:06]
deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination - [02:09]
BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Yes [02:16]
ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: what does all of this mean [02:16]
ben_vulpes ah replace by fee [02:17]
BingoBoingo yeah, [02:17]
ben_vulpes and starfish means? [02:17]
BingoBoingo asshole [02:18]
BingoBoingo anus [02:18]
BingoBoingo pooper [02:18]
* ben_vulpes gives up, falls over, dies, rots, blows away [02:18]
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BingoBoingo Every derpism like RBF is a new starfish blighting heretic client forks [02:20]
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deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 3.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - [02:30]
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mircea_popescu ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: what does all of this mean << replace byt fee, sorta a poor man's version of your original "run a pool!" [02:39]
mircea_popescu somehow this "majority miner changes everything" thing is very hard to see. [02:39]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00056821 = 6.7049 BTC [-] [02:47]
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BingoBoingo More from MP's favorite stalker [03:08]
assbot sciencehatesyou comments on Potential Evidence of Miner Collusion Or An Active 51+ Percent Cartel ... ( ) [03:08]
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mircea_popescu heh. [03:56]
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BingoBoingo That's what, cockpuppet 691 or 692 she called out. Someone needs some Thorazine [03:58]
mircea_popescu and the most ... snore, i suppose, aspect of this is that other than the few dedicated philiphinos caught without talking points, the general redditard population is amply incapable of even understanding what was said. at all. [04:04]
mircea_popescu "the network will be safe because the miners won't shit in the soup because they'll be too afraid of the public reaction" [04:05]
mircea_popescu "yeah, except they'll try it a little sooner or later, and then a little more. and the public is mostly made up of the same public that thought Britney Spears is a singer." [04:05]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market --all [04:11]
gribble Error: This is not one of the supported markets. Please choose one of ['bcent', 'okc', 'btcn', 'coinbase', 'cbx', 'btce', 'bfx', 'btcavg', 'btcde', 'krk', 'bitmynt', 'btsp'] or 'all' [04:11]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --merkel angela [04:11]
gribble (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market |all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure (1 more message) [04:11]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [04:12]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 433.0, vol: 6784.34911547 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 433.88, vol: 17762.93680826 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 444.99, vol: 1.91867027 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 441.744954, vol: 78079.43140000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 429.3, vol: 1789.99641091 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 430.865683, vol: 50.712731 | Volume-weighted last average: 439.621312697 [04:12]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69682 @ 0.0005664 = 39.4679 BTC [-] {4} [05:13]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122800 @ 0.00056531 = 69.4201 BTC [-] {3} [05:47]
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deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 3.63428528 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - [06:00]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24150 @ 0.00056468 = 13.637 BTC [-] {2} [07:36]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28721 @ 0.00056439 = 16.2098 BTC [-] [08:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47036 @ 0.00056431 = 26.5429 BTC [-] {2} [08:37]
jurov huh wtf happened to lxr [08:48]
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jurov debugging left on? ofc [09:19]
jurov ;;later tell ben_vulpes till the cache hasn't cleared, use instead [09:35]
gribble The operation succeeded. [09:35]
assbot Satoshi ... ( ) [09:35]
jurov fghj: mod6: also, do you have any hints as what leaves to press and add into lxr? [09:36]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14350 @ 0.00056409 = 8.0947 BTC [-] {2} [09:49]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00056392 = 9.8686 BTC [-] [10:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1800 @ 0.00056392 = 1.0151 BTC [-] [10:17]
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punkman [11:11]
assbot Kanye West caught using Pirate Bay to download music software | Ars Technica UK ... ( ) [11:11]
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mircea_popescu lol go kanye, stickin' it to da man. [11:42]
mircea_popescu o... wait... [11:43]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20800 @ 0.00056392 = 11.7295 BTC [-] [11:50]
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PeterL mircea_popescu: so the Jeb Bush bet winners were sent their winnings twice? Does that 16 btc go as a loss on the bitbet books? [12:00]
mircea_popescu PeterL yeap. [12:00]
PeterL Or are you expecting everybody to nicely send back the mistaken funds? [12:00]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46600 @ 0.0005635 = 26.2591 BTC [-] {2} [12:00]
mircea_popescu haha. what is this, fiat ? [12:00]
mircea_popescu no, i don't expect such nonsense. [12:00]
PeterL maybe if you ask really nicely? [12:00]
mircea_popescu but what sense does it make ? [12:01]
PeterL none, none of it makes sense [12:01]
mircea_popescu lol [12:01]
mircea_popescu and it's actually 17.95 or so [12:01]
mircea_popescu anyway, ftr. last para. [12:02]
assbot A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( ) [12:02]
PeterL to me, it seems like it was just a miner holding onto a zero fee txn, and it happened to move to the top of the 0 fee txn pile right after you resent the txn [12:02]
mircea_popescu you're a college man, right ? tokenize the events, assets probabilities per token, calculate the overal chance of this happening. [12:03]
mircea_popescu that's how the pros do it, at any rate. [12:04]
mircea_popescu assess* [12:04]
PeterL have you timed how long it normally takes a 0 fee txn of that size to get into a block? [12:04]
mircea_popescu yes we have! it takes it over a week to NOT get into a block :) [12:04]
mircea_popescu and it's very scientific : same exact tx! [12:04]
PeterL okay, so getting into a block right after your other txn is a bit of a coincidence, but not inconceivable [12:06]
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mircea_popescu what is this! [12:11]
PeterL I think you are just being paranoid [12:13]
mircea_popescu this is fine, but also rather irrelevant. migth as well tell darwin he's just being anticlerical. [12:14]
mircea_popescu there's actual science work to be done, for they able and willing. [12:14]
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thestringpuller the node cabal forked from the mining cabal? [12:22]
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thestringpuller or just the mining cabal silently forked the network... [12:22]
mircea_popescu it's one of those "you think you're buying a fine piece of american engineering, but otherwise it's made in china" things. [12:23]
mircea_popescu you think you're using the bitcoin network, but in fact you're using the chicoin network. [12:23]
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asciilifeform mircea_popescu: chinese cockroach demolition derby when ? [12:45]
* assbot gives voice to punkman [12:45]
asciilifeform can haz front row seat ? [12:45]
mircea_popescu well for starters, deleting this "must hardfork to prove we can do it" nonsense and replace it with the much more sensible "must brick miners to prove we can do it", at the very least. [12:47]
PeterL I guess I can't complain too much about this bitbet blunder, the "extra winnings" I got from the bet was higher than my proportion of the loss as a bitbet shareholder (unless this tanks the share price too) [12:49]
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PeterL I mean, uh, hypothetically, if I was one of the bettors ... uh.. nevermind [12:49]
mircea_popescu lol what a narrow outlook! [12:50]
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PeterL unless this exposes some flaw in the bitcoin system, and the btc price crashes, and then we are all fucked [12:50]
mircea_popescu but it already did expose such a flaw. [12:50]
PeterL I am not thoroughly convinced [12:51]
mircea_popescu miners can attack any user, with an unsolvable "either doublepay or never pay" dilemma. [12:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lemme guess, you have the thermonuke ready and loaded ? [12:52]
PeterL you just need your own miner to doublespend the inputs to cancel the first txn [12:52]
kakobrekla or move the inputs of the first tx beforehand and invalidate the doublespend possibility [12:53]
PeterL weren't you already talking about setting up your own pool? [12:53]
kakobrekla or should i say rather 'doublepay' [12:53]
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deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.05510566 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - [12:55]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i do not believe in singlehandedness. [12:55]
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mircea_popescu kakobrekla you can not move inputs BY YOURSELF [12:56]
mircea_popescu why's this so hard to grok, somehow ? [12:56]
mircea_popescu what do you do, make ANOTHER tx to go in the An delayed-forever pile ? [12:56]
mircea_popescu and to fix this then your advice is to what, make An+1 ? because then surely ? for how long ? [12:56]
PeterL or run your own miner [12:56]
kakobrekla so you are saying you are unable to make any further txes on bitcoin network at all? [12:56]
mircea_popescu i am saying that i spent OVER A WEEK making transactions from those inputs. [12:56]
kakobrekla and for the next tx will it again take a week and not be done again ? [12:57]
mircea_popescu and, ironically, the substantial proof that there was nothing wrong with any of them PER SE, was that a tx that, as per the protocol, should not even have been relayable made it into a fucking block [12:57]
mircea_popescu within "minutes", where "minutes" just neatly fits in the cartel head-of-best-chain report delay. [12:58]
kakobrekla 0 fee txes are quite relayable, tried not a week ago. [12:58]
PeterL how do you know they are delaying? [12:58]
mircea_popescu ... [12:59]
asciilifeform did i mention that ~same thing happened to my humble 5btc ? [12:59]
asciilifeform i think i did. [12:59]
p15 PaulCapestany paxtoncamaro91 Peter_Geschel PeterL phf pizzaman2337 polarbeard PsychoticBoy punkman [12:59]
p15 PaulCapestany paxtoncamaro91 Peter_Geschel PeterL phf pizzaman2337 polarbeard PsychoticBoy punkman [12:59]
p15 PaulCapestany paxtoncamaro91 Peter_Geschel PeterL phf pizzaman2337 polarbeard PsychoticBoy punkman [12:59]
mircea_popescu << were you here for that PeterL ? [12:59]
assbot Logged on 01-03-2016 23:32:18; mircea_popescu: i personally think the only reason it's not mined yet is that there hasn't been a block. [12:59]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform was it sourced from bitbet payouts ? i recall pete_dushenski saying the same happened to him, originally blamed it on multibit. [13:04]
asciilifeform quite possibly it was. or at least in part. [13:05]
asciilifeform and the remainder was sourced, i think, from something mircea_popescutronic, as almost all of my coin in fact is. [13:05]
mircea_popescu heh. [13:06]
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asciilifeform << maybe describe then, what you'll need. (here, or in pgpgram..) [13:09]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 15:54:27; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not believe in singlehandedness. [13:09]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20100 @ 0.00056345 = 11.3253 BTC [-] [13:09]
PeterL I still dun see why you jump to the conclusion of miner holding blocks, maybe they rebroadcast the transaction as they moved it from "0fee waiting line" to "now including these txen" when they had held it long enough for the wait time to increase its priority? [13:11]
PeterL if it had been two days instead of two hours after the other transaction, would you still have concluded miner collusion? [13:12]
PeterL mircea_popescu ^ [13:14]
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mircea_popescu PeterL the operative part there is, txn was "broadcast" and then "included in a block" within 20-odd minutes. [13:15]
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PeterL maybe it was the miner who had been holding it who broadcast it? [13:16]
mircea_popescu that happens to be, involuntarily i guess, and impredictably for the attackingside, i guess, a passive timing of their capabilities. [13:16]
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mircea_popescu PeterL that's the idea. [13:16]
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PeterL which is why none of the other txn that followed it were included, they were invalidated by the first txn which was in the miners' mempool [13:17]
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mircea_popescu except they didn't report it ? [13:17]
PeterL who didn't report it? [13:18]
mircea_popescu well, ~nobody. [13:18]
PeterL you asked the miners specifically? [13:18]
mircea_popescu i didn'taskl anything of anyone. i listen to a large cross-section of the bitcoin relay network. [13:18]
mircea_popescu nodes advertise the txn they know about. [13:18]
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PeterL maybe a mine who likes to listen instead of talk held onto the first transaction? [13:19]
mircea_popescu for a week or so, in preference of higher fee replacements ? sure. why ? [13:19]
mircea_popescu it is breaking the protocol inasmuch as a protocol exists. [13:19]
mircea_popescu it's certainly not a behaviour supported or even possible by any codebase so far published, if you think code=protocol instead. [13:20]
PeterL why not hold onto a 0fee txn until later? [13:20]
mircea_popescu because it's part of a set of mutually incompatible txn, and some of the others have better fees, for instance. if you're am iner, you want the higher fee. [13:20]
PeterL but is the protocol to keep older txn or newer, does fee size matter? [13:21]
mircea_popescu the protocol is that 0 fee txn can't even be relayed. [13:22]
PeterL what if it is just somebody trying to scam by getting a party to accept a 0conf txn, and then double spending it? [13:22]
kakobrekla 0 fee txn can't even be relayed. < this is not true [13:22]
mircea_popescu write down what a party would need in order to do this. [13:22]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla hey, "spam protection", i didn't write it. [13:23]
kakobrekla they relay but not as well. [13:23]
mircea_popescu but yes, because "the protocol" is not even written down, endless arguments of this nature can be had. by and large... [13:23]
PeterL ok, I buy some egold from bob, send him 1 btc. He sees the 0conf txn, transferes the egold to me, then I doublespend the inputs with a higher fee, sucks to be him [13:24]
kakobrekla there are many different version of nodes and implementations abiding by different rules on bitcoin network. [13:24]
mircea_popescu PeterL this is miserable "writing down". what are you, a consumer ? HOW do you doublespend. [13:25]
kakobrekla and this makes it, to an extent, unpredictable. [13:25]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla or so we thought. but it turns out that no, there's exactly one, covered in a cloud of buzzing shit. [13:25]
PeterL and the miners in your scheme see the higher fee and put the second txn in a block [13:25]
kakobrekla there isnt one. trb behaves differently than prb if nothing else. [13:25]
mircea_popescu PeterL how is this related to what happened ? [13:25]
kakobrekla even different trb build do different stuff. [13:26]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla and guess what - trb gets blackholed now and again. prb never mattered. [13:26]
kakobrekla same goes for prb. [13:26]
PeterL you seem to think you can just send a new txn with a higher fee and expect it to get processed faster [13:26]
mircea_popescu the miners are running their own shit, and it's centralized. [13:26]
mircea_popescu PeterL this is not what was said! didja read the qntra piece ? [13:26]
kakobrekla it matter for propagation for instance. [13:26]
* assbot gives voice to punkman [13:26]
PeterL while I am saying the iners are just going to keep the older txn, regardless of fee [13:26]
asciilifeform << this is untrue. >> [13:26]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 16:20:40; mircea_popescu: the protocol is that 0 fee txn can't even be relayed. [13:26]
assbot Satoshi asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option/src/main.h ... ( ) [13:26]
kakobrekla i said the same. [13:27]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform looky, this isn't how this sort of discussion works, by giving counterexample. [13:27]
punkman so one thing that hasn't been mentioned, does trb even replace transactions when new one comes in with higher fee? [13:27]
mircea_popescu punkman iirc no, but the plan was to get the pool sorted by per/kb tx fee [13:28]
mircea_popescu ring buffer and all that. [13:28]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: granted, i have nfi what the heathens run. [13:28]
mircea_popescu more importantly, "the protocol is X" "no because implementation y" "implementation Y is noncompliant" "no" "because ?" "uhhh" [13:29]
PeterL Where is the protocol documented? [13:29]
kakobrekla hm qntra just fucked up my comment. apparently you cant use < and > in comments huh [13:30]
mircea_popescu by and large, very broadly speaking, and insasmuch as a "bitcoin protocol" even exists at all - it says that 0 fee txn aren't relayed or included. now, how this is implemented in practice... w/e. [13:30]
asciilifeform PeterL: nowhere. [13:30]
punkman which implementations do you think would accept the subsequent higher-fee transactions (putting aside the fact that you couldn't see the first 0fee tx in anyone's mempool)? [13:30]
mircea_popescu PeterL ask vessenes and the merry friends/captains of industry/power rangers/etc [13:30]
kakobrekla who here has control over approving the comments ? [13:30]
mircea_popescu punkman you mean which implementations would accept a tx with a fee ? seeing how they wouldn't see the other one ? or what ? [13:31]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla lol [13:31]
mircea_popescu prolly BingoBoingo [13:31]
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punkman mircea_popescu: which implementations would accept a replacement tx with a fee, assuming they still have the 0fee tx in mempool [13:34]
kakobrekla thats a good q [13:35]
mircea_popescu from experience, the stuff the chinese miners run would, at least most of the time. historically i thought this is just random variance between divergent implementations, but now i think it's a single unit behaviour modulated somehow. also, this is essentially what "Replace by fee" is all about, iirc. [13:35]
punkman relevant: "Bitcoin Core will only allow replacement of transactions which have any of their inputs’ nSequence number set to less than 0xffffffff - 1." (in 0.12 release) [13:36]
mircea_popescu you have to understand that the direct correlate of "bitcoin protocol is nowhere" is that i'm stuck sitting here wasting tons of resources and various people's time doing an endless array of stupid or plain weird shit to see what happens to try and understand what's what. [13:36]
mircea_popescu the advantage being, of course, that i have a whole lot of canaries in all sorts of apparently unexpected places. the drawbacks... heh, let's not talk about that, i'll just get angry. [13:36]
mircea_popescu punkman the notion that prb is relevant to this discussion is shocking/ridiculous, depending on your mood. [13:37]
kakobrekla prb is what relayed your txes to the miner gates. [13:37]
asciilifeform a good chunk of the 'protocol' as i pictured it, turned out to be... promise. [13:37]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla not even. prb is more or less the random noise. [13:38]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform sadly. [13:38]
kakobrekla who else is then connected to the miners? do tell? [13:38]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: dark matter. [13:38]
kakobrekla i do not accept that answer. [13:39]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla "that is not a bridge" "please build me a bridge over here so i can see this" "orly" [13:39]
mircea_popescu looky, not like you have to accept or not accept anything. [13:39]
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asciilifeform kakobrekla: dark matter is not 'mystery meat.' is is a thing that is definitely present but gives only indirect shadow of being there. [13:39]
mircea_popescu things are what they are, you make of them what you will. [13:39]
kakobrekla hence i dont agree with your interpretation of events (that bbet/you is targeted here - in which case its game over) [13:43]
PeterL I guess you cold test whether you are directly connected to miners or bridged by prb nodes: send a txn which prb does not like, see if it gets included in a block [13:43]
mircea_popescu well, you have a large pile of stuff to explain away then. i'd be curious to read the alt theory kakobrekla [13:43]
PeterL or did we do that and that is why we had to add the high/low s thing? [13:44]
mircea_popescu PeterL the general idea is there. [13:44]
BingoBoingo !up Luke-Jr May get an ack if "brick chicom miners" goes with it? Been hanging out with stroke victims recently and my brian is having sympathy deficits so I gotta defer to the peerage. [13:44]
* assbot gives voice to Luke-Jr [13:44]
mircea_popescu a lot of fingerprinting you can do by just listening. it's a large topic, this. [13:44]
kakobrekla im afraid you wont go for that because you dismiss things with "notion that $item is relevant to this discussion is shocking/ridiculous" [13:44]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla but it's not about me, per se, it's about the thing, such as it is. [13:44]
kakobrekla or " this isn't how this sort of discussion works, by giving counterexample." [13:44]
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mircea_popescu but there's logic behind that! [13:45]
* assbot gives voice to ben_vulpes [13:45]
mircea_popescu what, you think asciilifeform accepted it as stated because he's afraid of me or something ? [13:45]
punkman has anyone else observed cases of tx being in mempool but not advertised to peers? [13:45]
kakobrekla thats up to him to answer. [13:45]
mircea_popescu that's actually a good thing to document punkman [13:46]
asciilifeform i accepted because i saw it alive right here. [13:46]
asciilifeform and have been picking up radar echoes of it for ~year. [13:46]
kakobrekla arguably i have more actual experience with sending txes than alf. [13:46]
punkman asciilifeform: did you manage to bet 5btc twice when your tx got stuck? [13:46]
BingoBoingo who here has control over approving the comments ? Approved nao [13:46]
asciilifeform and, for that matter, i predicted that miners would turn, long ago. [13:46]
mircea_popescu more generally, you can't bring arguments as to what the standard is on the basis of "look what this implementation does". the illustrative case of this being the four men in a dark room with an elephant. [13:47]
kakobrekla BingoBoingo one should be removed and one approved, hopefully you noticed that [13:47]
asciilifeform punkman: nope, but the bullet whistled by [13:47]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla> arguably i have more actual experience with sending txes than alf. << well, that was a discussion of mempools i thought, so i'm not sure this reduction is relevant. [13:47]
kakobrekla i have seend weird shit happen with mempools with my own very eyes. [13:48]
Luke-Jr BingoBoingo: "brick chicom miners" ? [13:48]
mircea_popescu so have i. so has everyone! [13:48]
mircea_popescu the problem is that "weird shit" just coallesced into everyone's worst nightmare. [13:48]
mircea_popescu !down Luke-Jr [13:48]
* assbot removes voice from Luke-Jr [13:48]
mircea_popescu get lost. [13:48]
kakobrekla i dont see the events that took place as randomly impossible [13:48]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: a whole fuckload of 'random' in one direction. [13:49]
mircea_popescu nothing is randomly impossible. i have no argument there. [13:49]
asciilifeform i can fall through the floor. [13:49]
asciilifeform randomly. [13:49]
asciilifeform physics - allows it. [13:49]
mircea_popescu this actually can happen, ftr. [13:49]
asciilifeform aha. tunneling. [13:49]
mircea_popescu enough space if the particles arrange just right [13:49]
asciilifeform more than enough. [13:49]
kakobrekla the odds of that are less than the odds of what we observed. and i think the odds of ko [13:49]
kakobrekla spiracy are also less than randomness. [13:50]
kakobrekla konspiracy* [13:50]
mircea_popescu well, incredibly enough, nobody has actually calculated the fucking odds, to support this view. [13:50]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is not a thing you can actually do [13:50]
asciilifeform none of the necessary priors are known. [13:51]
mircea_popescu so then on what does he base himself ? [13:51]
asciilifeform wishes? [13:51]
mircea_popescu i dunno, i'm just asking. [13:51]
asciilifeform kakobrekla this is not even the first botched payout on bb! [13:51]
mircea_popescu i suppose you know, gut feeling. can go either way. which is why i said, doesn't have to accept anything. [13:51]
asciilifeform how many bullets do you need to catch before you stop saying 'meteorite' and shoot back. [13:51]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the first set was ~arguably~ due to the malleator magically failing on select txn [13:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha, which is why i did not ring the alarm. [13:52]
mircea_popescu which at the time i did buy as a sufficient explanation. [13:52]
BingoBoingo historically i thought this is just random variance between divergent implementations, but now i think it's a single unit behaviour modulated somehow << Could be turdacious relay network or it's replacement's evil [13:52]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16315 @ 0.00056605 = 9.2351 BTC [+] [13:52]
BingoBoingo BingoBoingo one should be removed and one approved, hopefully you noticed that << But you submitted two! [13:52]
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kakobrekla one thing that goes through my mind is that trb/mps infrastructure is on the border of 'consensus' behavior of most nodes. this makes it more susceptible to odd/unwanted shit happening. [13:53]
asciilifeform kakobrekla: we - or at least i - have nfi what 'most nodes' are or do. the sybils are not necessarily relevant. [13:53]
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kakobrekla most nodes are idiots that run prb as built by core team [13:54]
mircea_popescu these "most nodes" don't even fucking figure in the node count. [13:55]
mircea_popescu what, 40% uptime ? ok ? [13:55]
kakobrekla BingoBoingo one however does not validat :p [13:55]
mircea_popescu by this measure most datacenters are in kenya. [13:55]
kakobrekla the 40% uptime nodes bring your tx to the miners, news at 11 or when are those. [13:56]
mircea_popescu so i thought. i dun think so. [13:56]
kakobrekla BingoBoingo feel free to remove the one that is br0ken and does not validate as far as im concerned. [13:57]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla> one thing that goes through my mind is that trb/mps << this is true, but let me clarify that An set of txn were broadcast through a set of > 1k distinct peers. most of which i don't regard as peers in any sense, but nevertheless they did get to hear about them from my own nodes. [13:58]
BingoBoingo Ok, will remove bad one once I make a pot of coffee and identify it [13:58]
mircea_popescu which aren't, at the present time, trb-tethered. it's a goal, but into the future. [13:58]
asciilifeform ahahahahaha so we have mircea_popescu's mpb mysterymeat in the mix. [13:58]
asciilifeform which we (other than mircea_popescu) have nfi what it does. [13:58]
asciilifeform in whatever cases. [13:58]
mircea_popescu myeah. [13:59]
asciilifeform i' [13:59]
mircea_popescu hey, it's a protocol, right ? [13:59]
asciilifeform d bet money that there is some peculiar mpbism that is being exploited here. [13:59]
mircea_popescu i don't run homogenous stack tho. [14:00]
mircea_popescu for this fucking reason. [14:00]
asciilifeform especially then. [14:00]
mircea_popescu what can i say. [14:00]
asciilifeform heterogeneity in software is an illusion in every case. [14:00]
mircea_popescu if only. protocols would be so much easier to both design and implement, if this were true. [14:00]
asciilifeform and certainly there is nothing truly heterogeneous about 11 old versions of satoshi's crud. [14:01]
asciilifeform running on 4 generations of x86. [14:01]
mircea_popescu sure, in a general sense. [14:02]
asciilifeform ~usefully defensive~ heterogeneity is an illusion. [14:02]
mircea_popescu that wasn't contemplated. [14:02]
mircea_popescu informative heterogenity, however, is not. [14:02]
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mircea_popescu one of the many protocol items that turned to be promises was - i shouldn't NEED any defense. [14:02]
asciilifeform aha. [14:03]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7885 @ 0.0005673 = 4.4732 BTC [+] {2} [14:03]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7000 @ 0.00056743 = 3.972 BTC [+] [14:04]
mircea_popescu other than the obvious "they're getting sloppy" there is, of course, the alternative explanation that the current crop of miners roughly speaking stopped giving a shit. [14:04]
mircea_popescu the reward's halving, they regard their capital investment as ~worthless, and we have crossed bitcoin event horizon. [14:05]
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asciilifeform i distinctly recall that trb sailed through the july incident while mpb did not. [14:05]
asciilifeform why was this ? [14:05]
mircea_popescu i distinctly recal trb nearly sunk in the other incident, while mpb provided the magic constants. why was that ? [14:05]
mircea_popescu why the fuck is anything. because software sucks ? [14:05]
asciilifeform prolly. [14:07]
kakobrekla anyway paying out the bet with a different set of inputs after you have made a broadcast of the signed tx from the first inputs even to a single node, without moving those inputs elsewhere first, is a noobish mistake. why you were unable to do that is a different matter. [14:07]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: trb didn't even get off the runway until magic constants, recall. [14:07]
mircea_popescu how is it a mistake ? [14:07]
mircea_popescu you think i'd rather have 18 btc than know all this ? i wouldn't. [14:07]
kakobrekla becase i assume you know once you put out a signed statement of spending some outputs those can actually be spent at a later time if they are still there. [14:08]
mircea_popescu part and parcel of how this all works. [14:09]
kakobrekla or should i say inputs. i always get confused with the two. [14:09]
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kakobrekla its like gpg signing "i give you half of pile x" the reciever says "didnt get the message at all" and then you go ok nvm "i give you half of pile y" now. [14:10]
mircea_popescu this part isn't controversial. [14:10]
kakobrekla you dont have to accept it is. [14:11]
mircea_popescu wait, what ?! [14:12]
kakobrekla actually, to put it in another way, im surprised you are surprised over the events that happened given your set actions. [14:14]
kakobrekla set of* [14:14]
mircea_popescu whether i am surprised or not is not included in this discussion. i don't recall saying i was surprised, nor does over-the-lan telepathy historically work. moreover, my own state is deeply irrelevant : the problem is there, and it's grinning at you. [14:15]
PeterL I don't see a problem, you signed two transactions and they both were mined, where is the problem? [14:16]
BingoBoingo The timing [14:16]
mircea_popescu mkay then. [14:16]
kakobrekla if you arent/werent surprised means you sort of expected it? [14:16]
mircea_popescu kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it. [14:17]
kakobrekla why go then sign another tx with fresh inputs to seal the deal ?? [14:17]
mircea_popescu or at any rate something-like-it. of the vast array of various nonsense readily available in ample stores on this networked currency of the future. [14:17]
mircea_popescu so that the problem can be fully exposed, in detailed, solid fact, so as to be handwaved by people. [14:18]
mircea_popescu i'm a masochist like that. [14:18]
PeterL but what is the problem? seems the networked worked as advertised? [14:18]
asciilifeform PeterL: 'when it feels like it' [14:19]
mircea_popescu PeterL looky, i'm not going to carry on this conversation. i get it, you wish to be dense and stonewall. fine, but stop derping at me about it. [14:19]
asciilifeform in that sense - yes. [14:19]
asciilifeform i for one am disappointed, i expected there would be a lively thread re: the exact how-tos of applying boot to some well-deserved faces in the middle kingdom and elsewhere. [14:20]
PeterL tx1 was sent, included in a block at t1, tx2 was sent, included in a block at t2, the fact t1 and t2 are close together is just a coincidence, not a problem [14:20]
mircea_popescu dude... [14:20]
asciilifeform *well-deserving [14:20]
mircea_popescu did you get the part where tx2 is really tx1 and was sent 8 days prior to what you insanely call tx1 ? [14:21]
PeterL no, tx2 is not tx 1 because they have different inputs [14:22]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform i've been thinking about it, but i don't think this is actually resolvable. as it happens - the "magically working network - we don't know how it works" thing is much more appealing to the average joe than you know, "this is my node. i will defend it with my life". what life, are you kidding, got sitcoms to watch and shit. [14:23]
PeterL t1 is after t2 makes sense since tx1 had 0 fee, while tx2 had a fee and was therefore included faster [14:23]
mircea_popescu so... no. you can't solve the problem of fiat through technological means, be they bitcoin or anything else. the same people that abandoned the fiat to "mysterious entity" will just as readily abandon bitcoin, and their own asshole. [14:23]
PeterL so the lesson here is "don't send 0 fee txen if you are not patient enough to wait a few weeks" [14:24]
mircea_popescu in other news, << bitbet payouts suspended as seen there. [14:24]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you cannot solve the problem of hygiene with technological means, no. [14:24]
assbot BitBet ... ( ) [14:24]
asciilifeform inventing the toilet is not enough, you have to go to it [14:25]
asciilifeform in pants - always easier. [14:25]
mircea_popescu so it is. [14:25]
asciilifeform it does not follow that toilet was a waste of time. [14:25]
mircea_popescu i am not in the slightest proposing this. i am saying however that the toilet may be part of the solution, but can't be THE solution. [14:26]
asciilifeform no shit! [14:26]
mircea_popescu hey, i'm in the business of fundamentals, apparently. [14:27]
asciilifeform hey it beats being in the business i'm in (swimming in tank of shit with shit-eating pirannhas) [14:28]
asciilifeform so far the only solutions i can picture divide into 2 classes, [14:29]
asciilifeform a) tmsr takes up some form of mining [14:29]
asciilifeform or [14:29]
asciilifeform b) tmsr shows the vermin their place [14:30]
asciilifeform but if mircea_popescu coughts up a (c), i'll enjoy reading. [14:30]
PeterL what does it mean by b? what does this entail? [14:31]
kakobrekla as i mentioned before, if you really believe that miners are conspiring against bitbet (via known outputs and amounts) then its game over for bb. [14:32]
kakobrekla however my tin foil seems to be thick enough, for now. [14:32]
BingoBoingo kakobrekla: Could try roofing tin? [14:32]
asciilifeform PeterL: see thread re: keccak. [14:33]
kakobrekla BingoBoingo regular tin foil works for now where im sitting. [14:33]
BingoBoingo kakobrekla: Ok, are you sure you used the clip to connect it to ground though? [14:33]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29700 @ 0.00056345 = 16.7345 BTC [-] [14:34]
kakobrekla yes, goes right to the water pipe under bathroom sink. [14:34]
BingoBoingo very good [14:34]
kakobrekla aha [14:35]
BingoBoingo Would be exemplary good if saltwater pipe [14:36]
* assbot gives voice to jurov [14:41]
jurov << so you used not your own money for such experiments. why am i not surprised? [14:41]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it. [14:41]
jurov actually, i am surprised that nobody of bitbet shareholders was loud about this [14:42]
mircea_popescu lmao. why the fuck would you, or anyone else, expect me to spend my own money to resolve bitbet's problems ? what is this company, a charity conduit ? [14:43]
asciilifeform << interesting [14:43]
assbot A Miner Problem | Qntra ... ( ) [14:43]
jurov people are sheep everywhere, i guess. [14:43]
PeterL jurov what do you think we have been complaining about? [14:43]
mircea_popescu this is what it does for its living : tries to extract value out of the greatly economically valuable bitcoin thing. [14:43]
mircea_popescu so far - it goes about as well as you'd expect. [14:43]
jurov when had transaction problem with coinbr withdrawal, i did not risk [14:44]
jurov and instead moved thhe change with big fee [14:44]
jurov and it wen mined eventually [14:44]
mircea_popescu this is fine ? [14:44]
jurov yes, because as opposed to mircea_popescu i did read the code closely and it does maintain chains of unconfirmed transactions [14:45]
jurov so, this is fine [14:45]
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mircea_popescu asciilifeform he asked about it, i saw no problem republishing. [14:45]
mircea_popescu i dunno what code you read or what you did when, but good for you! [14:46]
jurov all the code there is, does it [14:47]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'd be curious re: what the 'technical solution' is. [14:47]
mircea_popescu makes two of us. [14:47]
kakobrekla needles to say i dont agree with mps actions or interpretation of the results, even if you take out the qntra comment. [14:47]
mircea_popescu jurov looky, this thing whereby in reaction to a "this guy is accused of having killed that guy and here's the smoking gun" you come up with a "hey, i fired a gun once, and the smoke went so and so" is a waste of time. you wish to construct an alternate theory, please, by all means, i would wish to hear it. but you must take ALL the points, and show that your path crossing them is cheaper than the one detailed on qntra [14:50]
mircea_popescu . you wish to contradict numeric results, fine, but show your own calculations in doing so. [14:50]
mircea_popescu i can appreciate gut feel, but it's no sort of argument as to anything. [14:50]
mircea_popescu other than that, obviously whenever something blows up everyone wishes to not have to be in the way. sure. [14:51]
jurov no, you constructed and pushed forward your notion of "bitcoin protocol" wich led to stupid actions with a money that was not even yours [14:51]
kakobrekla aha ^^ [14:51]
jurov that someone used the stupidity against you, no wonder [14:51]
* mircea_popescu shrugs [14:51]
asciilifeform what, theoretically, would it take, to get a guaranteed block weekly ? [14:52]
asciilifeform i could've sworn we had this thread [14:52]
mircea_popescu and you're a poopynose!! ha-HA!!! calling names is how you solve problems you don't wish to consider! YAY KINDERGARTEN [14:52]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform you can't. because half hour delayed. [14:52]
mircea_popescu they'll reorg the shit out of you. [14:52]
asciilifeform hm. [14:52]
asciilifeform so it's nukefest time, then. [14:52]
mircea_popescu consider it a sort of coke machine for miner rigs. inasmuch as you do exactly what they'd have done, you can keep it. else - reorg. [14:53]
mircea_popescu soon enough you'll learn [14:53]
mircea_popescu which is how this ended up here in the first place. [14:53]
mircea_popescu well no, it's "lalala i can't hear you" time. [14:53]
jurov no it's "lalalala all i did was very right and proper, it's YOU who have to come up with theory" [14:54]
mircea_popescu that's my priviledge. i'm the one actually doing things, there. [14:54]
asciilifeform possibly time to show'em 'кузькина мать' i mean. [14:54]
asciilifeform (is there even an engl. phrase for this?) [14:55]
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asciilifeform tbh i'm a little surprised that mircea_popescu was pinching pennies on tx fees [15:02]
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asciilifeform for whatever reason [15:02]
mircea_popescu [15:02]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 16:35:04; mircea_popescu: you have to understand that the direct correlate of "bitcoin protocol is nowhere" is that i'm stuck sitting here wasting tons of resources and various people's time doing an endless array of stupid or plain weird shit to see what happens to try and understand what's what. [15:02]
asciilifeform so it was a reactor test? [15:05]
mircea_popescu you know how it sometimes happens that a platoon gets sent on a random patrol, ends up surprising a moving contingent of enemy, a flurry of radioing and reinforcing and whatnot happens and suddenly the front is in a new place ? [15:07]
asciilifeform aha! [15:08]
mircea_popescu the platoon shareholders usually get butchered. [15:09]
jurov so, if in course if this recon you manage to completely obliterate bitbet's fund, you'll invoke your privilege and tell everyone to stfu?? [15:09]
thestringpuller asciilifeform: re: reactor test << like how they tested the reactor in Chernobyl with a "stress test" [15:09]
jurov *during course of this recon [15:10]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00056344 = 11.0998 BTC [-] {2} [15:10]
asciilifeform jurov: what, in place of recon by fire, would you do in his place ? [15:11]
jurov let me at least know im funding the war? [15:12]
* punkman1 is now known as punkman [15:13]
jurov best to put straight into the contract: "This venture's funds may be used to enforce bitcoin protocol" [15:13]
* assbot gives voice to punkman [15:14]
BingoBoingo let me at least know im funding the war? << Seems reasonable though BitBet particularly gets for the lesser versions of this shennanigans in the past. Perhaps something to do with its auditability. [15:15]
punkman so bitbet has to resolve 1800 btc of bets to cover the damage? [15:15]
thestringpuller whoa... [15:16]
jurov mircea surely has shown them!!! [15:16]
asciilifeform no wai [15:17]
BingoBoingo so bitbet has to resolve 1800 btc of bets to cover the damage? << MP would only have to bet a few hundred "No" on Trump to likely get money coming out of the woodwork to match it. [15:19]
mircea_popescu or whatever, give away a grand to the general public so that buffet can pretend like there are no berkshire shorts. or other stuff. [15:21]
BingoBoingo Who knows? [15:21]
* thestringpuller will be highly entertained by a trump presidency [15:21]
mircea_popescu jurov companies fold all the time. this is a thing. if in the course of their business they fail to make money, they'll lose exactly as much money as they lost. [15:21]
mircea_popescu jurov> let me at least know im funding the war? << i'm sorry, you thought bitcoin WORKED ? [15:22]
mircea_popescu holy shit, the warnings i haven't been putting out ;/ [15:22]
jurov i'm living off it for some years, that's "works" for me. [15:22]
mircea_popescu i'm glad to hear. you think that's germane ? [15:23]
asciilifeform jurov would be astonished to learn what i live from. [15:23]
asciilifeform and how it 'works'. [15:23]
mircea_popescu the problem with broken things is exactly that - they "work" for you until they don't. at which point... [15:23]
jurov well, you keep asking people to wake you up when it stops working [15:24]
asciilifeform aha. [15:24]
jurov so far i don't remember it happen [15:24]
jurov someday everything stops working, so what. [15:24]
asciilifeform '... and with strange eons, even death may die' (tm) (r) [15:25]
asciilifeform at any rate, i've been repeating, largely to deaf ears, since i showed up here, [15:25]
asciilifeform that it 'works' in the sense where a house of cards that nobody's pushed, stands up. [15:26]
asciilifeform house of cards is not the only possible kind of house. [15:26]
asciilifeform it is possible to build a concrete bunker, or even castle. [15:27]
asciilifeform but it has to be ~done~. [15:27]
jurov the pray tell mr. datskovskiy, why aren't s.nsa funds used to poke this house of cards? [15:27]
jurov it's business is much closer to this goal than bitbet [15:27]
asciilifeform jurov: by all rights they ought to be. [15:28]
asciilifeform jurov: and to the extent i blow my very little free time on trbism, they are. [15:28]
* BingoBoingo likes where this is going. S.NSA acquisition of BitBet to test miner turderations. [15:28]
BingoBoingo because for this purpose the valuable part of BitBet is the public addresses [15:29]
asciilifeform l0l what has BingoBoingo been smoking. [15:29]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: I've been hanging out at the hospital with Grandpa while he rehabs from his stroke. I think I might have a touch of sympathy cognitive impairment. [15:30]
asciilifeform ah [15:30]
asciilifeform jurov: considering that the only thing i am apparently good at is falling on grenades, i would happily sit on this one for you if i knew how. [15:30]
BingoBoingo There's no cure for being 91, but it is amazing the work physical and occupational therapists can do [15:31]
assbot AMAZING COMPANY! [15:31]
mircea_popescu jurov> it's business is much closer to this goal than bitbet << the argument, while in itself respectable, very much sadly not how things work. the jew on a ship, should the ship catch fire, will be a fireman whether he signed up for voyage as jew or as fireman. [15:31]
mircea_popescu but i'm first in line to say i'd much prefer a bitcoin protocol that was actually specified, and actually worked. [15:32]
mircea_popescu well, maybe not first in line, but anyway. somewhere in that line. [15:33]
mircea_popescu and now, if teh esteemed peerage may excuse me for a bit, i really gotta eat and make this smg report. so bbs. [15:34]
jurov *shrug* i know you want some insights as to the actual war, but whatever ricocheted shots came my way (ddos, tx problems), i solved myself in anti-#b-a ways without learning anything about the enemy [15:37]
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jurov for example the ddos was solved leveraging aws infrastructure. but if the ddosers had half a brain, they'd have drowned me in aws bills [15:39]
jurov nope, so far largest attack was maybe $2 [15:39]
jurov so i have my reservations about these scenarios you and alf present here [15:40]
BingoBoingo jurov: If it makes you feel any better as an embedded reporter in this conflict I sometimes wonder if, like those reporters Bush sent into Iraq and coming away with a polished view because I am not yet made to sleep in the hills with nagant and donkey. [15:41]
punkman I don't think "working" protocol means being able to assume signed and broadcasted tx has been forgotten and won't come back to bite you in the ass. What's in who's mempool is unknowable. [15:41]
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PeterL even if it was removed from all mempools, would it be wrong for somebody to rebroadcast the txn, it was signed after all [15:44]
kakobrekla < correct. bitcoin, as is, is not a toy and not for idiots. pretty much #b-a mantra. [15:46]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 18:40:06; punkman: I don't think "working" protocol means being able to assume signed and broadcasted tx has been forgotten and won't come back to bite you in the ass. What's in who's mempool is unknowable. [15:46]
PeterL are you saying mircea_popescu is an idiot? [15:48]
PeterL Is it strange that we have had 10 empty blocks today? [15:51]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24200 @ 0.0005634 = 13.6343 BTC [-] {2} [15:52]
asciilifeform PeterL: it is entirely unsusprising that we have empty blocks [15:52]
asciilifeform in light of mircea_popescu's hypothesis. [15:52]
danielpbarron << perhaps my holdings aren't significant enough to have any weight on the issue, but nontheless I as a BitBet shareholder agree with the decision to draw attention to whatever issue at the expense of a few months of dividends. At the very least it can be seen as a marketing expense, BitBet being the catalyst to war against something truly rotten in bitcoin, something th [15:54]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 17:41:15; jurov: actually, i am surprised that nobody of bitbet shareholders was loud about this [15:54]
PeterL danielpbarron yes, but that would require there to be something rotten to fight against, I think mircea_popescu is just jumping at shadows [15:55]
deedbot- [Qntra] Anti Music Piracy Advocate Pirates Music Production Software - [15:56]
danielpbarron i think he knows more than I do about this matter, and I trust him when he says something is u [15:56]
danielpbarron up*, and who are you to say that he is wrong? [15:56]
PeterL I'm just a minor shareholder, my opinion doesn't count for much [15:57]
danielpbarron not that these are voting shares anyway, if you don't like it, sell. [15:58]
punkman I don't think this experiment is worth, say ~6 months of profits, but that's strictly the BB's board discretion. [15:58]
punkman [16:05]
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ben_vulpes !t m s.bbet [16:15]
assbot [MPEX:S.BBET] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: / / ( shares, BTC), 30D: 0.00007821 / 0.00008412 / 0.000121 (3930 shares, 0.33 BTC) [16:15]
ben_vulpes so far none of the bag^H^H^Hshareholders seem to give a shit [16:15]
mircea_popescu << this is specifically NOT the assumption. bitcoin being a working protocol however DOES mean that you should be able to assume that if a transaction is rejected, or not included, or delayed, or in any way treated or not treated it is solely on the basis of data COMPLETELY contained in that transaction. [16:15]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 18:44:56; kakobrekla: < correct. bitcoin, as is, is not a toy and not for idiots. pretty much #b-a mantra. [16:15]
mircea_popescu that's tghe problem here. something wasn't good for an entire week that suddenly became good. this selective-bitcoin is in no sense bitcoin, [16:16]
mircea_popescu and trivially can be shown to map exactly on paypal-usd. [16:16]
asciilifeform and if it even worked like the ocean, [16:16]
mircea_popescu which, youj know... also many people make a living on. [16:16]
asciilifeform where a ship can sink from matters unrelated to what is on board, but with known chance. [16:16]
mircea_popescu same ocean will sink same boat every time and float same boat every time. [16:16]
mircea_popescu this is the core of shipwrighting as a science [16:16]
mircea_popescu as opposed to prayer technology, say. [16:17]
PeterL but if there is wait-time-weighting being done by miners, then sitting for a week would make the transaction viable when it was not before [16:17]
mircea_popescu i don't want a fucking big-brother-bitcoin-from-china-san to pray to. [16:17]
mircea_popescu do you ? [16:17]
asciilifeform nope. [16:17]
mircea_popescu i'm sure you could live with it. but that's a different question. [16:17]
asciilifeform i already live with one. [16:17]
asciilifeform don't want another. [16:17]
ben_vulpes china-san lol [16:18]
asciilifeform and it's 'grandpa of the iron ricebowl' in cn. [16:19]
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asciilifeform not big brother. [16:19]
mircea_popescu PeterL that's an anachronistic argument. merely because they included it once B, you infer that they would have included it wherher B or non-B. this both fails tgo explain all the points prior to B that didn't include it (standard lifetime of mempool tx is about half the interval contemplated here) and the fact that you're drawing in the conclusion in the presumptions. [16:19]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: did you pay to have a block mined including your transaction before sending the dup? [16:19]
ben_vulpes wondering if you saw it reorg'd out [16:19]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes i did not. [16:20]
ben_vulpes because "from whom to rent"? [16:20]
mircea_popescu because you can't measure all things at the same time, basically. [16:20]
ben_vulpes sure sure [16:20]
mircea_popescu can give the show away etc. [16:21]
ben_vulpes give the show away? [16:21]
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kakobrekla < sad to see it took you so long to notice/learn this. has been so since day 1. [16:35]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 19:14:47; mircea_popescu: that's tghe problem here. something wasn't good for an entire week that suddenly became good. this selective-bitcoin is in no sense bitcoin, [16:35]
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mircea_popescu there's a significant difference between "this cave is infested with spiders" and "this cave is home to a spider queen the size of a camper van". at least to my eyes. [16:36]
asciilifeform meanwhile, [16:36]
assbot The IRS is using a system that was hacked to protect victims of a hack—and it was just hacked - Quartz ... ( ) [16:36]
mircea_popescu spiders in 1st case you handle on a case by case basis. organized spider hive, you bring out a flamethrowing tank and sear it. [16:37]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform ahahaha o god. [16:37]
PeterL wasn't the bitcoin foundation going to produce a protocol spec at some point, or is that on the list after the reference implementation is more developed? [16:37]
mircea_popescu this shit is hard to do! [16:37]
mircea_popescu yes, ideally, it should, eventually. [16:38]
mircea_popescu anyone writing up that irs story for qntra ? juices flowing every which way lol [16:39]
BingoBoingo ^ [16:40]
trinque As long as they keep their PINs secret, they should be safe from fraud. For this master plan to work, though, the IRS would also have to keep the PINs secret. << oh my god the win [16:41]
mircea_popescu :)) [16:41]
mircea_popescu this is good for fiat. [16:41]
mircea_popescu in other news at 4:42 - all money systems significantly more broken than previously realised. [16:42]
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mircea_popescu deedbot- [18:24]
assbot ... ( ) [18:24]
* asciilifeform expected a declaration of war, mildly disappointed!11 [18:35]
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trinque bot didn't eat it for some reason [18:36]
* trinque looks [18:36]
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deedbot- [Trilema] MiniGame (S.MG), February 2016 Statement - [18:40]
mircea_popescu trinque doesn't like that there's multiples ? or what did i do wrong ? [18:41]
mircea_popescu awww alf, sorry to disappoint! [18:41]
mircea_popescu anyway, i've been working on that thing for two days in 30 second installments in between nutty bitcoin shit that shouldn't happen anyway. [18:42]
trinque deedbot-: [18:50]
assbot ... ( ) [18:50]
trinque deedbot-: [18:51]
assbot ... ( ) [18:51]
deedbot- accepted: 1 [18:51]
asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i gotta ask, what happens to shares owned by the dead ? [18:51]
trinque deedbot-: [18:51]
deedbot- accepted: 1 [18:51]
assbot ... ( ) [18:51]
trinque parser's borked [18:52]
mircea_popescu in general, unspecified, in particular cases, as agreed with the previously living. [18:52]
PeterL asciilifeform presumably they go to the estate of the decesed? [18:52]
ben_vulpes PeterL: no caselaw [18:53]
ben_vulpes and only if the estate controls the key! [18:53]
PeterL put the dispensation of your shares into a will, stick it in deedbot? [18:53]
ben_vulpes that'd be a contract between you and your broken, no? [18:53]
ben_vulpes broker* [18:53]
asciilifeform if somebody has the key, 'you' are still alive... [18:54]
mircea_popescu i could see the deedbot will thing. [18:54]
ben_vulpes mircea_popescu's thing doesn't care about what's in deedbot-, does it? [18:54]
mircea_popescu which one ? [18:54]
asciilifeform (just as if you lose your key, you are dead, though still breathing) [18:54]
ben_vulpes mpex [18:54]
mircea_popescu not afaik, no. [18:54]
* ben_vulpes wonders who else would k [18:54]
mircea_popescu :p [18:55]
PeterL so really, asciilifeform's question is: what happens to shares if the key is lost? [18:55]
ben_vulpes the account persists on mpex until mircea_popescu cleans it out [18:55]
mircea_popescu now for that, we do have caselaw. [18:55]
ben_vulpes where in the log might inquiring minds read this caselaw, mircea_popescu ? [18:56]
mircea_popescu wasn't there some guy with a lucrative eth contract that lost his key ? [18:56]
asciilifeform i might be mentally overextending traditions from the meat world, but wouldn't a lost key be different from a dead lord's in the sense where a man lost at sea differs from one buried with witnesses ? [18:56]
ben_vulpes a that [18:56]
asciilifeform lost - can reappear. theoretically. [18:56]
mircea_popescu yeah doesn't seem the same story to me either. [18:57]
mircea_popescu ben_vulpes seems exactly the same thing. [18:57]
asciilifeform (though, in pathological cases, the dead can rise again, say chetty wrote down her key somewhere, for whatever reason, and it is found) [18:57]
mircea_popescu recall the case of that woman that had a child with the dead ? [18:58]
asciilifeform hm? [18:58]
mircea_popescu large patrimonial dispute maybe a decade ago [18:58]
mircea_popescu trophy slut of old man who died, had kid, claimed inheritance. [18:58]
asciilifeform not familiar with the case, but plenty of this in ww2 ? [18:58]
mircea_popescu family - less than thrilled. [18:59]
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mircea_popescu incidentally, anyone know the joke with the rabbit and the bear ? the one with the beret [19:02]
asciilifeform i only recall the hedgehog. [19:04]
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mircea_popescu which one was that ? [19:08]
asciilifeform [19:09]
assbot Logged on 21-08-2014 01:31:44; mircea_popescu: mkay. so in th forest there lived this very horny, huge schlong bear. sort of like one eye pete of the beardom. [19:09]
mircea_popescu ah no. [19:09]
mircea_popescu so wolf and fox walk around the forest and they see a rabbit. fox : "let's beat the shit out of this loser" wolf : "we need a reason..." fox : "we'll ask him where's his beret... and if he has none, we beat the shit out of him!" [19:11]
mircea_popescu so the rabbit buys himself a beret. [19:11]
mircea_popescu next the two meet him, they ask for a cigarette. which he gives them. so they ask for a light. rabbit is all like "sure, what'd you like, match, ligther ?" [19:12]
mircea_popescu so they beat the shit out of him again [19:12]
mircea_popescu "why!" "where's your fucking beret!" [19:12]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00056431 = 15.575 BTC [+] [19:14]
asciilifeform this one's new to me, but i recall a similar. [19:15]
asciilifeform crocodile swimming in the river, sees monkeys beating a hippo savagely. [19:15]
asciilifeform he asks why [19:15]
asciilifeform they: 'for having such a big mouth' [19:15]
asciilifeform croc: 'ню-ню' (~= hmm, hmm.) [19:16]
mircea_popescu hehe [19:16]
asciilifeform (for n00bz, this is pronounced with maximally puckered lips) [19:19]
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deedbot- [Qntra] Government Accountability Office Declines To Offer Opinion On Worthless USG Finances - [19:36]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100321 @ 0.00056259 = 56.4396 BTC [-] {4} [19:41]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10809 @ 0.00056211 = 6.0758 BTC [-] [19:43]
BingoBoingo Win [19:50]
assbot ... ( ) [19:50]
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pete_dushenski if i may summarise the last 24 hours of logs, which i must say were eminently enjoyable save the lack of practical recourse discussed : bitcoin remains the world's worst payment network... except for all the others. and even still, not by much. [19:57]
mircea_popescu something like that. [19:57]
pete_dushenski hey, it's a living (tm) (r) [19:58]
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BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: Practical recourse was discussed in older threads [19:59]
shinohai I am cursing bitcoin today - had my first trb database crash ... evidently I did not back up *everything* required and must now start my first node from scratch. [20:00]
pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: for users, sure. i found my own workarounds last month when i misattributed tx propogation failure to bitcoinj instead of bitbet taint. but for businesses ? [20:00]
asciilifeform shinohai: i think it is interesting that i've been kill -9 'ing trb since day 1 and never had this problem. [20:00]
BingoBoingo The solution is brick chicom miners [20:01]
pete_dushenski shinohai: o.O lame man [20:01]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: atomic war is expensive. [20:01]
asciilifeform for everybody. [20:01]
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trinque never a bad thing to have a weekly cron which stops trb gently, rsync's blockchain elsewhere, restarts [20:01]
trinque shinohai: ^ [20:01]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Then we will fend off the second round of rats with sticks [20:01]
mircea_popescu asciilifeform the difference between kernel-mediated closedown and crash is that there's better handling of buffers. [20:02]
asciilifeform fair'nuff. [20:02]
mircea_popescu but yes, what trinque said is a very useful protective measure. [20:03]
mircea_popescu (make sure yo uonly rsync if you stopped it, tho!) [20:04]
shinohai This time I am backing up the entire .bitcoin folder, space be damned [20:04]
asciilifeform i have 3-4 trb nodez going, just on house lan, at all times, so backup sorta solves itself. [20:05]
mircea_popescu this also works. [20:05]
asciilifeform and quite likely the easist variant. [20:06]
asciilifeform *easiest [20:06]
asciilifeform run moar trb. [20:06]
shinohai I'm up to 2 nodes, but one is remote so isn't feasible to sync that way at this time I guess. Hopefully project budget allows for an extra dedi box this year sometimes. [20:07]
asciilifeform srsly, rsyncing the blockchain, wtfwhy [20:07]
trinque so then they all hit the same bug and chew their blockchains at once [20:07]
trinque that's wtfwhy [20:07]
trinque lol [20:07]
shinohai lol [20:07]
asciilifeform trinque: so have at least 1 on a workstation that gets backed up normally. [20:08]
asciilifeform (you have one, no?) [20:08]
trinque that's exactly what I said [20:08]
BingoBoingo node likely also needs battery [20:08]
BingoBoingo battery is good [20:08]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: mains battery and raid card cum battery, for best result. [20:09]
* asciilifeform recommends. [20:09]
* BingoBoingo is unfamiliar with cum cell battery [20:10]
shinohai I have a UPS that runs node. My problem occured today when I attempted to import a private key into wallet.dat [20:10]
BingoBoingo shinohai: That generally slows down node for entire blockchain rescan [20:10]
trinque takes quite a long time [20:11]
shinohai I didn't even get to the rescan part, just db error :/ [20:11]
trinque the whole wallet is severely fucked in a number of ways [20:11]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32268 @ 0.00056185 = 18.1298 BTC [-] {3} [20:11]
shinohai It isn't very useful as a wallet unfortunately. [20:12]
BingoBoingo shinohai: Maybe write one in Shiva? [20:12]
shinohai heh [20:13]
pete_dushenski shinohai: may we all benefit from your mistake! /me scurries to make backups of backups [20:13]
pete_dushenski shinohai: and were you using polarbeard patch for the privkey import ? [20:14]
trinque !s polarbeard importprivkey [20:15]
assbot 0 results for 'polarbeard importprivkey' : [20:15]
shinohai No I was using the pywallet method I have used before. Today it just decided it didn't like it. [20:15]
trinque !s funkenstein importprivkey [20:15]
assbot 4 results for 'funkenstein importprivkey' : [20:15]
trinque pete_dushenski: I think it was herr funkenstein [20:15]
trinque unless there are two [20:15]
trinque I used funkenstein's, worked but the wallet's still unusable [20:15]
pete_dushenski trinque: aha. my mistake. you're correct. [20:15]
shinohai Now it works ok as a wallet if you use the generated keys, but that isn't practical on a live node. [20:16]
shinohai Must have way to import cold/paper wllets [20:16]
shinohai *wallets [20:16]
pete_dushenski shinohai: there's always (whisper it) from there you can zip off the coins to whatever live wallet or other address you might so desire [20:17]
mircea_popescu trinque> so then they all hit the same bug and chew their blockchains at once << no because heterogenous :D [20:17]
trinque trololol [20:18]
trinque to live in such days as the era of software! [20:18]
trinque I will need at least a sendrawtxn command soon lest I go mad with deedbot-, will most likely take a crack at it soon [20:19]
mircea_popescu with tools like these, who needs a horde of stampeding bulls on ecstasy. [20:19]
pete_dushenski since when do ibizans go to pamplona ? ;) [20:19]
shinohai xD [20:19]
shinohai I forgot about the heathen bc,info allowing that pete_dushenski. Unfortunately too late now, my client went elsewhere and I do not have my coveted BTC today. [20:21]
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pete_dushenski << go figure that this ~exact~ tx withholding experience (combined with coincidence of trinque's and mod6's excellent scripts) lead me to set up battlefield trb node, which, yes, is defended with life. who says rape isn't educative ?! this is my asshole goddamit !!1 [20:23]
assbot Logged on 02-03-2016 17:21:53; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've been thinking about it, but i don't think this is actually resolvable. as it happens - the "magically working network - we don't know how it works" thing is much more appealing to the average joe than you know, "this is my node. i will defend it with my life". what life, are you kidding, got sitcoms to watch and shit. [20:23]
mircea_popescu i guess there's that. [20:24]
mircea_popescu ceterum censeo chicom esse delendam. [20:24]
shinohai Seinfeld plays happily in the background as i do trb work. [20:25]
shinohai Most TV is garbage anyway [20:25]
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pete_dushenski << in other news you can use, bugatti has a released a successor to the 'world's fastest car', the 2006 veyron (and sub-variants). the new car is called the 'chiron' and it gives an excellent view as to fiat inflation in the last decade : the chiron is 2.4x the list price of the veyron, which works out [20:41]
pete_dushenski to 9% average annual inflation before you even account for the 11% greater production supply of the new model. [20:41]
assbot ... ( ) [20:41]
pete_dushenski the chiron is basically as close as one can come to riding in the atomic dirigible of land travel. [20:43]
pete_dushenski [20:44]
assbot ... ( ) [20:45]
assbot ... ( ) [20:45]
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shinohai Bold design to say the least. [20:50]
pete_dushenski no word, however, on how much chicom in chiron. almost certainly non-zero. [20:50]
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* assbot gives voice to punkman [20:55]
punkman pete_dushenski: the chiron is basically as close as one can come to riding in the atomic dirigible of land travel. << I'd take a UNICAT over the bugatti [20:56]
punkman [20:56]
assbot UNICAT® › Expedition Vehicles › Special › UXL 17-HD ... ( ) [20:56]
pete_dushenski punkman: for living, all day. for a-->b, depends on road quality! [20:57]
pete_dushenski << lol if i knew i wouldn't be asking [20:58]
assbot Logged on 29-02-2016 21:52:34; ben_vulpes: << mount her on a bicycle, pilfer a bottle from the office, mash around the city on bikes, break onto the in-decomissionment sellwood bridge and fuck on it? iono man what does one do with random girls anyways [20:58]
BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all [21:05]
gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 422.3, vol: 5801.00867275 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 424.816, vol: 7155.85995 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 422.69, vol: 17155.59828841 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 445.0, vol: 1.11745534 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 429.847446, vol: 77391.90040000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 421.17, vol: 1344.72873428 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 425.44305, vol: 43.21277498 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message) [21:05]
BingoBoingo ;;more [21:06]
gribble 427.878368498 [21:06]
punkman ;;interval [21:13]
gribble 553.8461538461539 [21:13]
BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats [21:16]
gribble Current Blocks: 400899 | Current Difficulty: 1.6349165490895926E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 401183 | Next Difficulty In: 284 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 19 hours, 41 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None [21:16]
BingoBoingo ;;mtbf [21:16]
gribble Error: "mtbf" is not a valid command. [21:16]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77580 @ 0.00056716 = 44.0003 BTC [+] {5} [21:24]
assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14658 @ 0.00056927 = 8.3444 BTC [+] {2} [21:25]
shinohai <<< lol this article [21:29]
assbot The Dream of Buying a Coffee With Bitcoin Is Dying, If It’s Not Already Dead | Motherboard ... ( ) [21:29]
pete_dushenski shinohai: heh. that dream has been deader than the animal fur on trump's head for 2 years and counting. [21:40]
pete_dushenski << pretty much summed up here [21:41]
assbot On Matters of Merchant Adoption | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( ) [21:41]
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asciilifeform some gentoo lulz: [22:44]
asciilifeform * Messages for package www-client/chromium-48.0.2564.116: [22:44]
asciilifeform * There is NOT at least 3 GiB RAM [22:44]
asciilifeform * Space constraints set in the ebuild were not met! [22:44]
asciilifeform since when does an ebuild get to distinguish between physical ram and available total (incl. swap) ? [22:45]
asciilifeform and who the fuck permitted this. [22:45]
asciilifeform what MOTHERFUCKING BUSINESS is it of the port what kind of ram. [22:45]
asciilifeform l0l, reading the src, apparently I_KNOW_WHAT_I_AM_DOING="true" cures... [22:46]
phf lunix on desktop! women in javascript! ubuntu! [22:47]
asciilifeform btw am i the only one who thinks of lumumba when hearing ubuntu ? [22:48]
phf you've got the socialist cheat sheet by way of having played this game before. others -- don't [22:49]
BingoBoingo ;;google How do I keep the squirrels in my yard away from my bird feeders [22:49]
gribble Solving Squirrel Problems at the Backyard Wild Bird Feeder ...: ; Tips for Outwitting Squirrels - National Wildlife Federation: ; Keeping Squirrels Off of Bird Feeder - YouTube: [22:49]
phf it's like every american "knows" who ghandi is, but who's ever heard of nehru? [22:54]
asciilifeform an old officemate of mine (now deceased, he was in his 80s) was, for some perverse reason, very boastful of having known nehru personally. [22:55]
asciilifeform had whole notebook of photos. [22:55]
asciilifeform but - he was not an american. [22:56]
asciilifeform though he worked for 58 years for usg and was in 'plum book' (emeritus, or whatever the heathens call it) [22:56]
asciilifeform poor fella, kept showing up even though he was no longer on the org chart. [22:56]
asciilifeform (retired on account of 'tired of reviewing my own self every year, it is a ludicrous farce') [22:57]
asciilifeform nobody would turn him out, he had the keys and - theoretically - outranked everybody, incl. base commander. [22:57]
asciilifeform (or so he insisted.) [22:57]
phf do you know what hurree babu really wants? he wants to be made a member of the royal society by taking ethnological notes. [22:59]
asciilifeform aha! [23:00]
asciilifeform see also orwell's immortal [23:00]
assbot Logged on 26-02-2016 18:42:55; asciilifeform: '‘Ach, sir, it iss worse when they become refractory! One man, I recall, clung to the bars of hiss cage when we went to take him out. You will scarcely credit, sir, that it took six warders to dislodge him, three pulling at each leg. We reasoned with him. “My dear fellow,” we said, “think of all the pain and trouble you are causing to us!” But no, he would not listen! Ach, he [23:00]
asciilifeform it was actually from.. i'll call him dr. plumbook, [23:07]
asciilifeform that i even learned that plum book existed. [23:07]
asciilifeform he was, (shock!) very boastful of being listed (at some, then recent, past) in it. [23:07]
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asciilifeform i heard that when he died, the very few folks whose employment survived his retirement, were finally sacked. [23:11]
phf i know a lot of career bureaucrats through my parents, and most of them tend to be very proud of chance associations, mentions, friendships, etc. "of note" [23:12]
asciilifeform (for n00bz who think 'it is impossible to be sacked from usg' - it is actually very easy. one merely has to be employed as a contractor, of whom there is a dozen or two for every actual 'civil servant', and then you can be fired any hour.) [23:13]
asciilifeform phf: aha. also. [23:13]
phf i'm pretty sure gogol made a few jabs at this particular feature of bureaucrat caste [23:14]
asciilifeform for some reason, every orc has, flashed into his firmware, this secret dream of becoming usg bureaucrat. [23:14]
asciilifeform why - i do not know. [23:14]
asciilifeform phf: i actually have met americans who read, e.g., 'overcoat.' in transl. [23:14]
asciilifeform (but, naturally, drew no conclusions.) [23:15]
BingoBoingo For some reason Birdfeeders remind me of the Maryland city known as "James Lafond presents Baltimore" [23:15]
assbot Tell us about bird behavior at your feeder - FeederWatch ... ( ) [23:15]
BingoBoingo (for n00bz who think 'it is impossible to be sacked from usg' - it is actually very easy. one merely has to be employed as a contractor, of whom there is a dozen or two for every actual 'civil servant', and then you can be fired any hour.) << Or appointee (i.e. patronage position) [23:16]
asciilifeform BingoBoingo: appointees are not fired in the usual sense, merely sent back to do some identical thing on a corp. board. [23:16]
asciilifeform where they come from. [23:16]
asciilifeform then the next fella gets a turn at setting up graft flow. [23:16]
asciilifeform (for his 'consultancy'.) [23:16]
BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Many are, but they first have to survive audition level appointment unless their scales are sufficiently silver [23:17]
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assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37312 @ 0.00056954 = 21.2507 BTC [+] [23:31]
mircea_popescu phf> lunix on desktop! women in javascript! ubuntu! << you know eulora is pretty much 100% woman-made. [23:56]
* mrstickball has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [23:58]
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