Forum logs for 29 Sep 2018

Monday, 16 March, Year 12 d.Tr. | Author:
mircea_popescu: not bad! [00:08]
mod6: good to hear, Sir. [00:09]
mod6: I think you must have an iron stomach -- the ability to publish such specimens of humans and not barf outright. [00:11]
mod6: (maybe you did, who am i to judge. lol) [00:12]
* mod6 nearly jumped into a bathtub with a toaster [00:14]
mod6: And it was her legs that got me, I think. [00:15]
* mod6 pukes in a corner [00:15]
mod6: sweet, trb is done [00:22]
mod6: this thing -just works-. [00:22]
mod6: gotta love it [00:22]
mod6: I literally can load the entire block chain in like 8-9 days. [00:28]
mod6: -caneat is where it's at. [00:28]
mircea_popescu: ducks love eating vomit [01:30]
mod6: heheh [01:33]
mod6: does anyone here hunt ducks? [02:58]
mircea_popescu: mod6 http://thewhet.net/2018/09/the-appropriately-proportioned-ballad-of-chimichurri/ !!11 [03:15]
* mod6 looks [03:33]
mod6: I like this duck with his dubloons. may his wings carry him swift, and his feet paddle him apt. [03:37]
mircea_popescu: idoubt it'll ever fly, domestic duck as it is. [04:19]
mircea_popescu: but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! [04:19]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! << Excellent use of WoT. Ensuring particular duck lives. [11:22]
BingoBoingo: And in the Encouraging News department: Trump can win in Uruguayo Courts Too! https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/quedo-sin-efecto-demanda-laboral-en-uruguay-contra-los-trump-201892912227 [12:44]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-29-sep-2018#2479288 << bwhahaha. [16:05]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 15:22 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! << Excellent use of WoT. Ensuring particular duck lives. [16:05]
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=33 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/24/2018 [16:06]
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu [16:12]
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers ! trb node zoolag will be down for approx 20min for experimental patch bringup, starting 5min from nao. [17:20]
mircea_popescu: how goes. [17:59]
asciilifeform: grr jurov , 'Signature verification on clearsigned text failed, discarding. Review the message in your sent mail folder for wordwrap or similar mutilations of clearsigned text.' [18:10]
asciilifeform: and i used the www box !! [18:10]
asciilifeform: hrm, pasting the txt worked... [18:11]
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers!!! http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html << . [18:11]
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf plox to snarf http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html and the predecessor ( mod6's http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000311.html ) into 'experimental' [18:13]
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded. [18:13]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: item's been on conveyor for a while, will be interesting to shed some light on who's hero and who's zero. [18:16]
asciilifeform: currently live on zoolag. [18:16]
mircea_popescu: nb [18:17]
asciilifeform: prolly oughta also print the peer version hdrs, but that can go in the regrind. [18:19]
asciilifeform: currently not so hard to see who is 1 of us and who not [18:19]
asciilifeform: this experiment will work 9000x better once there's several trb folx other than asciilifeform doing it, cuz learning 'block x came from... this-here trb noad' dun tell me much, it'd be useful to know where ~he~ got it, etc [18:20]
asciilifeform: prelude to actually rebaking the coad that does the address-collectin' (so to prefer folx who actually supply blox, to the dead weight people ) [18:21]
asciilifeform: i'ma post some grep ProcessBlock debug.log > whogave.txt once it runs for a spell. [18:23]
asciilifeform: imho set of addrs advertised actively with peers oughta consist solely of 1) people noad operator manually -addnode'd + 2) peers who actually sent in valid blox in recent past [18:26]
asciilifeform: ( see linked thread. ) [18:26]
asciilifeform: right nao this set consists 99.999....+% of rando liquishit. [18:27]
asciilifeform: for nao -- simply log'em. [18:28]
mircea_popescu: the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already. [18:30]
mircea_popescu: the current situation is unseemly. [18:30]
asciilifeform: i'ma guess it's on mod6's conveyor already. [18:31]
mircea_popescu: mod6 you on it ? [18:33]
* asciilifeform bbl:meat [18:34]
mircea_popescu: meanwhiel in other soviet art, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Lincoln_Douglas_Debates_1958_issue-4c.jpg [18:44]
mod6: hi! [18:48]
* mod6 reads the log [18:48]
mod6: asciilifeform: ah cool, thank for the post. I'll read/try it when I get a chance. [18:50]
mod6: Probably sometime here past month-end. [18:50]
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in famous speeches, [18:50]
mircea_popescu: "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbi [18:50]
mircea_popescu: d the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied [18:50]
mircea_popescu: everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone." [18:50]
mircea_popescu: (a. lincoln) [18:50]
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already. << I'm probably not going to do this until there is a vtron that supports keccak. [18:50]
mod6: I want users to be able to get a vtron, as they do now, with v.pl, then build trb in very much the same way they are able to today. [18:51]
trinque: eh this is no reason to completely halt trb progress meanwhile [18:51]
mod6: Why would it be halted? [18:52]
mod6: I've been working on it quite a bit. [18:52]
trinque: I have patches myself which are sitting on the sideline waiting for the manifest, which I was under the impression you're working on [18:52]
mod6: No, the manifest was published last week, trinque. [18:52]
trinque: ah! great! sorry, I missed that [18:52]
mod6: Well, there was some issue with the ML message going through, but it's up now. [18:52]
trinque: got it. [18:52]
mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000311.html [18:53]
mod6: I've even got another vpatch I'm about to submit too. Was testing it lastnight, in fact. [18:53]
trinque: lovely, I'll have to dust off my wallet excision patch and submit too [18:54]
trinque: ^ not intended for mainline, specific-use branch. [18:54]
mod6: Anyway, TRB will live on as SHA512 hashes in vpatches until there is a very clean way to switch. For The Foundation, the switch needs to be very seemless for newbs. [18:54]
asciilifeform: trinque: manifest is done, i built on it in the experimental item linked earlier [19:11]
* trinque sees, was searching for whether not being able to download attachments from ML also slipped by him [19:12]
asciilifeform: speaking of which, thus far nearly all of zoolag's valid new blox came from one 149.56.19.79 [19:12]
trinque: lolnope, cannot download attachments. [19:12]
asciilifeform: trinque: they load fine here... do you get eggog ? [19:13]
trinque: I'm getting a cloudfront error! [19:13]
asciilifeform: ?!! [19:13]
asciilifeform: jurov : ?? [19:13]
asciilifeform: jurov: srsly, cloudfront ?! [19:13]
mod6: trinque: are you having trouble with the ML? [19:13]
mod6: that's weird. it was working better, or so I thought :/ [19:14]
asciilifeform: mod6: i thought it was moved to pizarro ?! [19:14]
asciilifeform: where the fuck is that thing hosted ? [19:14]
mod6: I'm not sure where the mailman front end is hosted. [19:16]
mod6: The archive part was moved to the foundation [19:16]
mod6: 's box at Pizarro. [19:16]
asciilifeform: mod6: so why is it physically possible for trinque to see cloudfront ?! [19:16]
mod6: (at least, I thought so) [19:16]
mod6: asciilifeform: I dunno. [19:16]
trinque: 161.0.121.248 << this appears to be the pizarro box, eh? [19:16]
asciilifeform: yes [19:16]
mod6: jurov: Can you give us an update on all of the above ^? [19:16]
asciilifeform: trinque: are you behind some peculiar heathen firewall or wat [19:17]
trinque: per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-01#1846502 [19:17]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-01 13:13 jurov: Till I set up everything, static mirror of btc-dev mailing list will be here: http://161.0.121.248/ml/btc-dev/ [19:17]
* asciilifeform brb,meat [19:17]
trinque: asciilifeform: what do you have for curl 'http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20180923/mod6_excise_hash_truncation.vpatch?sha1=9abdb060135507152b9a5c7c3b8b98966266c5bd' [19:17]
trinque: curling instead with the IP works fine over here [19:18]
trinque: so appears on my end that yes, thing referenced by that domain is on aws [19:18]
mod6: i seem to be able to curl that url above, np. [19:18]
trinque: now I can as well. [19:19]
mod6: weird [19:19]
trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/bjyXE/?raw=true << not so weird, these all point to cloudfront, amazon's cdn thing [19:22]
trinque: that will serve the item if it has it cached, or will otherwise request from the backend, which is apparently faulty [19:23]
mircea_popescu: * About to connect() to therealbitcoin.org port 80 (#0) [19:23]
mircea_popescu: * Trying 52.85.74.232... connected [19:23]
mircea_popescu: ie, amazon isp. [19:24]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855609 << what newbs are these ? the sort of newbs that press from v but not have keccak ? [19:24]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 22:54 mod6: Anyway, TRB will live on as SHA512 hashes in vpatches until there is a very clean way to switch. For The Foundation, the switch needs to be very seemless for newbs. [19:24]
mircea_popescu: seems to me the only kind of newb this is is a very old hand determined to sabotage the process. newbs will just take the state of the art. [19:25]
mircea_popescu: now that we're done with alf's wrecking of the naming convention, gotta deal with mod6 's wrecking of the historical flow ? keccak isn't some fucking optional package on top of mainline usg-provided sha. [19:26]
mircea_popescu: sha was never fucking mainline. it was an accidental ad-hoc-ism. [19:26]
mircea_popescu: only existed there AT ALL because nobody cared what is there at some indistinct point in the past. [19:27]
mod6: I'm not saying that we shouldn't move to keccak, just would ideally have a tool that supports it. [19:29]
trinque: which incidentally is a great segue to hey esthlos, when am I getting such a thing with which to cuntoo? [19:29]
trinque: would also take a phf item, if v.py is ready to roll with vtools [19:30]
mod6: If you want this done asap, can work towards creating vpatches that have keccak. [19:30]
mod6: And I don't think I'm try to wreck anything by being methodical. [19:31]
mircea_popescu: i'd much prefer not to see a flood of sha patches seeing how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879 had to exist because "apparently not aware". [19:31]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 17:47 mircea_popescu: but anyway : NO NEW WORK ON SHA PLOX. USE KECCAK. [19:31]
mod6: Alright. [19:32]
phf: (i'm not up to date with log) trinque: i can post a patched v.py that works with vtools, i have some free time sunday evening to prep it up [19:32]
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 1 hour and 19 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> plox to snarf http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html and the predecessor ( mod6's http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000311.html ) into 'experimental' [19:32]
mircea_popescu: considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak". [19:32]
mircea_popescu: for one thing -- make the fucking thing, and for the other thing -- last month "oh, we have no way to contribute because -- summer days". [19:32]
mod6: I certainly wasn't held back by no keccak. Who said that? [19:33]
mod6: Only thing I've been held back by is lack of time as I've been way overwhelemed by all of the Pizarro work. [19:33]
mod6: It should get better now that BingoBoingo has taken over management duites. [19:34]
mod6: *duties [19:34]
mod6: Anyway, if someone wants to take over my role at the foundation, please let me know. [19:34]
mircea_popescu: i won't even say anything about any of that, seeing how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-27#1830030 and so on. [19:34]
a111: Logged on 2018-06-27 00:27 mircea_popescu: does the thing have salespeople / funnel up yet ? [19:34]
mircea_popescu: but as far as the foundation is concerned -- if all it does (ALL IT DOES!!!) is stand up to tell me "oh, we can't follow the keccak because reasons" ima put an end to it in short order. [19:35]
mod6: I actually would have figured you'd want me to ensure a smooth transition with the correct tooling. Not jump into something before we're ready. [19:36]
mircea_popescu: not even entirely sure what precisely we'd be missing if there was no foundation at all, right off. [19:36]
mod6: Alright. If we disband it, what do we do with the coins? [19:36]
mircea_popescu: exact same as so far, i reckon. winge and whinge and wring our wrists and worry about it. [19:38]
mod6: I didn't mean to piss ya off with my comments above, Sir. [19:39]
mod6: Maybe it is time to give someone else a turn at the helm of the Foundation, or move to not have a foundaiton at all. [19:40]
mircea_popescu: nevermind the pissing off, that's not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn't manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity. [19:40]
mod6: This is true, I kicked in 10 BTC of my own, even. [19:40]
mircea_popescu: it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick. [19:40]
mircea_popescu: we can kick it as high as we want, no wings, no life. [19:41]
mircea_popescu: if i have to run a balance sheet putting the active on one side and passive=delayed-keccak-adoption on the other side, it's coming out in the red as it stands. [19:41]
mod6: *nod8 [19:43]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855636 << displays the expected payload, trinque [19:45]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:17 trinque: asciilifeform: what do you have for curl 'http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20180923/mod6_excise_hash_truncation.vpatch?sha1=9abdb060135507152b9a5c7c3b8b98966266c5bd' [19:45]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855642 << ffs! why!!!! [19:45]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:22 trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/bjyXE/?raw=true << not so weird, these all point to cloudfront, amazon's cdn thing [19:45]
asciilifeform: jurov wtf [19:45]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only displays that if cloudflare decides to proxy it. [19:46]
asciilifeform: yea but wtf! why does he have a liquishitflare in there ! [19:46]
asciilifeform: who asked for this! [19:46]
asciilifeform: cuz it wasn't asciilifeform [19:46]
mircea_popescu: what do you get if you dig therealbitcoin.org ? [19:47]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/r0Xxq/?raw=true [19:47]
asciilifeform: and that dun look like pizarro ! [19:47]
mircea_popescu: 100% amazon. [19:47]
asciilifeform: darkest africa. [19:47]
mircea_popescu: which w/e, i recall this was the case a while back, cheap instance or w/e. [19:48]
mircea_popescu: ie, not news to me. [19:48]
asciilifeform: yea but thing was down for week+ , was nominally getting moved into civilized white man hosting [19:48]
mircea_popescu: i dunno. [19:48]
asciilifeform: and i was under impression that this was declared done [19:48]
trinque: you actually have to set up the dork CDN in front of it yourself though [19:48]
mod6: Yeah, I thought the thing was fixed and the archives were moved, too. But may have been mistaken. [19:49]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855663 << i'ma hold off on further patches, even experimentals, until regrind, if mircea_popescu says 'hold' [19:50]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:32 mircea_popescu: considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak". [19:50]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855658 << this is fair [19:50]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:31 mircea_popescu: i'd much prefer not to see a flood of sha patches seeing how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879 had to exist because "apparently not aware". [19:50]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855661 << pleez post [19:50]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:32 phf: (i'm not up to date with log) trinque: i can post a patched v.py that works with vtools, i have some free time sunday evening to prep it up [19:50]
asciilifeform: nuffin is won by waiting, phf [19:50]
mircea_popescu: we won't die till sunday. [19:52]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i disagree, btw, that 'epsilon', march-current is when the aggression thing was deployed & tested to exhaustion, and gave proper ~realtime block propagation for 1st time since trb birth [19:52]
asciilifeform: it is only in heathendom that 'work' equals 'massive flood of coad' [19:52]
mircea_popescu: you're right, i'm just pissy. [19:52]
asciilifeform: i dun blame mircea_popescu for pissy, current state of affairs is bad for blood pressure unequivocably [19:53]
mircea_popescu: besides, shit's gotta get a critical look now and again, can't be all happy roses permanently. [19:53]
asciilifeform: without mircea_popescu's occasional bout of 'wtf, people, from where do you hands grow' we'dve sunk long ago imho [19:54]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855679 << heathendom is fulla parasites who are happy to use bitcoin without contributing so much as a farthing to keeping the 1 and only working client going, noose at 11 [19:55]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:40 mircea_popescu: nevermind the pissing off, that's not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn't manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity. [19:55]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855681 << the piggy afaik does thus far exactly what it was needed for, which is to pay for civilized hosting so the patches even have where to sit. imho anyffing on top of this is bonus. [19:56]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:40 mircea_popescu: it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick. [19:56]
asciilifeform: and yes i'd luvv as much as errybody else if a battallion of civilized folx were to materialize out of somewhere and donate, or even run nodes. but they are evidently scarce, mircea_popescu beat the subject of 'sane people ~extinct' just about todeath [19:57]
asciilifeform: this being said, hey hey ho ho crapflare has gotta go !! jurov !! [19:58]
mircea_popescu: i dunno that we've exaustively tried that angle, nor do i think we must drop everything and try etc. we're currently well invested, i'm not protesting it. [19:58]
mircea_popescu: the issue however, is that if mod6 does all the work he does ~as mod6 ~ or as ~the chair of bitcoin foundation~ in the end makes little difference, it's still the exact same work. [19:59]
mircea_popescu: maybe with some extra overhead he conceivably doesn'\t even need, in the latter case. [19:59]
asciilifeform: iirc we did the 'civilized' thing where chair is 1 d00d, treasurer -- another, there's at least a nominal procedure for handover, etc , mircea_popescu suggested it and asciilifeform et al saw it as Right Thing [20:00]
asciilifeform: sorta a raid5, theoretically supposed to help the participants' life expectancy [20:01]
mircea_popescu: hey, whole republic is built out of trying out the civilised things various empires came up with. some fruit better than others. [20:01]
asciilifeform: ( enemy wins less from taking out 1 ) [20:01]
mircea_popescu: it's not directly evident to me that foundation as it currently stands is factually more than a permanent drain on mod6 's worktime. [20:01]
asciilifeform: mod6 : how much time approximately ~does~ it burn ? [20:02]
asciilifeform: mod6: and wouldja rather be doing sumthing else ? [20:02]
mircea_popescu: this question is confounded, because he does a lot of copyediting and general maintenance for all sorts of work that'd have to be done anyway, [20:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu : pretty much erry worthwhile thing can be rewritten as 'permanent burn' of ~somebody~ [20:02]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: currently not clear to me how there'd be less work if trb were 'mod6 proj' instaed of 'foundation' [20:03]
mircea_popescu: in principle. but our values are very much in the vein of debirocratization, after all. somehow i fear it's more of a haskellism than anything. [20:03]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, hard to evaluate for me. [20:04]
asciilifeform: is why i left the q for mod6 . [20:04]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6 : how much time approximately ~does~ it burn ? << I'm not even sure I can put a number on it exactly. I put a lot of time in. It's a huge responsibility. [20:05]
mircea_popescu: i kinda have in the back of my mind this impression that poor shane's ended up stuck with a large number of loose ends to juggle. [20:05]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: and wouldja rather be doing sumthing else ? << Yeah, I think four years is enough, I think someone else should take over. [20:05]
mircea_popescu: mod6 is it a major source of unhappiness and anxiety in your life ? [20:05]
mod6: Fresh ideas, new enthusiasm, etc. [20:05]
mod6: mircea_popescu: not at all. I'm proud to do the work. [20:05]
asciilifeform: mod6: ftr i'm 100% satisfied with your work as trb chair [20:05]
asciilifeform: and imho last thing trb needs is '9000 new idea' [20:06]
mircea_popescu: are you practically solo chair these days or do you hold meetings with ben_vulpes and so on ? [20:06]
asciilifeform: ( imho -- it's a preservation proj , to keep the thing going until trbi etc ) [20:06]
mod6: I used to collaborate much more with the man, but he's been afk for quite some time. [20:06]
mod6: asciilifeform: Correct. [20:07]
mircea_popescu: mod6 do you want to name someone to join into the chairdom ? [20:07]
mod6: Overall, yes. I think we need to determine if the entire thing is worthwhile. [20:08]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc it was kinda chartered with carte blanche, "do whatever, just do". the way history flew it worked out as a sort of "holder of trb project" pretty much yes. [20:08]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho thing's quite key to the practicality of errything else we do. [20:09]
mod6: People contribute, and do things. It would be very nice to have more consistant help with testing and other things. It hasn't been too bad just doing it myself, but with Pizarro in the picture (esepcially when was acting manager), having to do it all was hard. [20:09]
mircea_popescu: i mean, let's not get too anachronistic, most of the things that are "forever held true and known" today have been invented last wednesday at the time tbf was invented, none of the notions of collaboration meanwhile spawned out of v usage were even apprehended. not even a glimmer in the lords' eyes... [20:09]
asciilifeform: without rock-solid trb, there is no bitcoin , at least not in any shape i'd particularly care to be connected with. [20:10]
mircea_popescu: let http://qntra.net/2018/09/power-rangers-inserted-inflation-bug-into-core-bitcoin-network-client-in-2016/ be remembered here. [20:10]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: birth of trb was 100% powered by 'muscle-powered v' of gpg-signed patches, recall. [20:10]
asciilifeform: so directly ~produced~ v. [20:11]
mircea_popescu: yup. [20:11]
* asciilifeform successfully, if painfully, dissuaded the participants from regressing into heathendom versiontronics [20:12]
asciilifeform: with substantial help of mircea_popescu , mod6 [20:13]
mod6: I think trinque would be a great candidate for Foundation Co-Chair. (As I've said before). [20:13]
asciilifeform: imho tbf is the single most productive collaboration we've had here to date, without exaggeration [20:14]
asciilifeform: ( and, to date, at very little cost, at least if measured coinwise ) [20:14]
asciilifeform: mod6: i concur with the nomination [20:14]
mircea_popescu: certainly it has that advantage, which no pantsuit item ever could point to, of being VERY conservativewly run and as a result decent roi through keeping denominator down. [20:14]
mircea_popescu: trinque that sound like something you'd wanna do ? [20:15]
trinque: as it stands the deedbot wallet project is a hand-cranked charity I run, really want to see that thing move towards paid subscription services before I take on something else. [20:23]
trinque: folks are also going to expect cuntoo leadership out of me shortly. [20:24]
asciilifeform: trinque: do you have a subscription model in the works ? [20:24]
trinque: yes, hot-wallet will be a subscription service [20:24]
asciilifeform: trinque: i.e. the item currently in use, where !!pay x y ? [20:25]
trinque: no, recall I move my arse to a printer and hand crank all !!withdraw currently [20:26]
asciilifeform: aa! [20:26]
trinque: beyond hot-wallet-subscription, notions of trb-as-a-service sit, for in-WoT developers that want highly available programming interfaces to a trb fleet [20:27]
asciilifeform: to date i haven't conceived of how to make trb into a subscription service ( my 1 attempt at the problem was the 'wires' item ) but this should not discourage others [20:29]
trinque: first thing is to define what the foundation is. steward of patches/seals, ML, yes, what else? [20:33]
trinque: would like ben_vulpes to chime in here too. [20:33]
asciilifeform: there's a http://thebitcoin.foundation/charter.html [20:34]
asciilifeform: so possibly ought to be starting point, and if need clarification, to then ask mod6 / ben_vulpes . [20:34]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855775 << was the whole idea, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850988 [20:46]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:24 asciilifeform: trinque: do you have a subscription model in the works ? [20:46]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:24 mircea_popescu: trinque is this something you'd be interested in doing ? expand deedbot thusly, maybe charge chans a fee ? [20:46]
mircea_popescu: but the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855774 point is sound, guy's gonna have a lot on his plate. [20:46]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:24 trinque: folks are also going to expect cuntoo leadership out of me shortly. [20:46]
mircea_popescu: is there any objection to this, incidentally ? letting trinque be a sort of one man cuntoo foundation ? [20:47]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855782 << no, it's deliberately open ended. let board pick what to do an' do it. [20:49]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 00:33 trinque: first thing is to define what the foundation is. steward of patches/seals, ML, yes, what else? [20:49]
mircea_popescu: and that charter is pretty cool! [20:50]
ben_vulpes: yeah who even wrote that thing :P [21:00]
ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking. [21:01]
ben_vulpes: for that reason, largely only spending cash on hosting services. recently also a few hardware nodes. it creates work for mod6 in the vein of the monthly reports. perhaps a nutty suggestion, but it could cleanly be wound down (the charter modified), and mod6 to continue the monthly reports on his blog. [21:03]
ben_vulpes: this has the advantage of aligning tbf with how things actually work in the republic, as driven forward by the hands of those doing the work. [21:04]
ben_vulpes: it also carves off an unsightly imho pantsuit wart upon the side of the republic, a "non-profit organization" with names and caftans etc. [21:04]
ben_vulpes: (elsewhere, saws buzz, coats of poly are applied, a decade of life-dross triaged and arrangements made to ship the most-valued and useful posessions across the continent continue...) [21:07]
trinque: yeh, this is why I prefer strapping myself to a business requirement for trb working well, rather than joining up on TBF [21:12]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: imho there is nuffin pantsuit at all about it, and it worked a+++ for entire 4y it's been around. [21:31]
asciilifeform: otoh whether to work it is entirely board's, i.e. mod6 & ben_vulpes decision, not mine, i am not on tbf board [21:32]
asciilifeform: but ftr i would see death of tbf as a substantial republican defeat [21:33]
asciilifeform: it dun need, imho, any 'fixing'. [21:33]
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855654 << hey trinque, I plan to have this for you by the end of the weekend. hope that works [21:33]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 23:29 trinque: which incidentally is a great segue to hey esthlos, when am I getting such a thing with which to cuntoo? [21:33]
trinque: roger that [21:33]
ben_vulpes: did what, as far as mod6 and i could tell, it needed to. [21:34]
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855058 << as to this, the initial release (this weekend) will use gnupatch. I tried to design the thing so that I can swap out the patcher for my own afterwords. eventually my own mcilroy should make its way in. [21:37]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:49 asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh [21:37]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << to the extent ( and it is a ~substantial~ extent ) that a healthy btc net relies on ~widely~ available sane client, incl yes even for miners, to limit in any way the distribution of trb src is imho catastrophically stupid idea. [21:40]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:01 ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking. [21:40]
asciilifeform: and incidentally the orig funding model, in case folx forgot, is http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt [21:43]
ben_vulpes: inner popscu suggests "what, as if its used by anyone outside the republic anyways? if joe blow wants a sane client (which republicans should be mentioning in their blogs etc), he can join the republic and ask for the vpatches." but perhaps i'm undercalibrated. [21:43]
asciilifeform: the tithe. ( yes problem that currently nobody's raking in megacoinz and has what to tithe. but the principle is sound. ) [21:44]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if heathendom drifts far enuff into prbism, as things are currently we're blockless [21:45]
asciilifeform: this is not one of the items where we can say to all of heathendom to fuckoff. [21:45]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'ecological' problem. [21:46]
asciilifeform: the continued convertibility of btc into saecular goods, e.g. rack space, is not separable from healthy 'ecology' sadly. [21:47]
asciilifeform: and yes if there were some magical way to get errybody who benefits from tbf and ergo working btc net, to put into the piggy, it'd be splendid, thing could fund even such things as flotillae of noads, or even trbi dev, etc, whoknows. but there is no magic. and it is a lucky thing that tbf in fact has the coin with which to do the bare minimum and host patches ( not on shitazon! jurov ! ) and handful of reliable nodes. [21:51]
ben_vulpes: i do not advocate that tbf hide the sauce away, dun fear [21:55]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm genuinely curious if i'm missing something subtle . [21:55]
asciilifeform: the heart of the matter is that nobody cancelled http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/ theorem. [21:57]
asciilifeform: can't replace the thing with 'republic only' trbi , not without some yet-unfathomed breakthrough, or, idk, if mircea_popescu takes over brazil, or, whoknows, catastrophic chernobyl that fully demolishes the classical btc net [21:59]
ben_vulpes: mm, i didn't mean to suggest 'republic only' trb net. it is however a pretty sane client for the extant network, and perhaps there is value in gating access to such a gem from teh hoi polloi. what with trinque's impending hotwallet patches and his demonstration of their value with trb services, the gem will become only of more value. [22:02]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it's already pretty much as 'gated' as anyhing gets, already to build it heathen must just about change religions [22:05]
asciilifeform: and yes at least 1 cretin 'stole' trb. what did it get him. [22:05]
ben_vulpes: so then what loss? if heathen has changed religion what are they doing out of church [22:05]
ben_vulpes: is there some fetlife for nerds funnel under optimization? [22:06]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i see no gain from putting any obstacle in front of anyone, heathen, chinese, martian, good, evil, who wants to run trb . [22:07]
asciilifeform: if idjit breaks it, he can do no harm thereby that prb does not already do if he runs a valid node, it contributes to strength of the net. [22:08]
asciilifeform: whereas when somebody throws coin into a prb wallet, for any reason whatsoever, whether because he is idjit or because we made it harder to avoid, that's coin into usg coffers. [22:10]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << i think this narrowed down over time in everyone's mind, as the shocking incapacity of "the everyone" to step up to the plate became ever more enshrined in experience. [22:11]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:01 ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking. [22:11]
* mircea_popescu certainly was informed by a lot more "for everyone" pov five or ten years ago. [22:11]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as for 'premium' noad access, recall how the mircea_popescu 'trbi' thread was born. ( classical btc offers no sweet pill for how to reward node operators. any attempt to charge for 'gets mined faster' inevitably reduces to a game the miners can themselves win, cutting out middlemen ) [22:13]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855799 << twasn't obvious it is substantially a wart. i mean, if we end up cutting off everything the pantsuit attempt or attempterd historically to steal the trappings of, we'd be left without words. [22:13]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:04 ben_vulpes: it also carves off an unsightly imho pantsuit wart upon the side of the republic, a "non-profit organization" with names and caftans etc. [22:13]
ben_vulpes: on the thread of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855797, upon meditation, tbf was willing to host kids' projects at various points. didn't, in the case of lobbes, because he didn't take funding. kids ever-declining cost next to tbfs kitty inclines me to continue considering these projects. [22:14]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:03 ben_vulpes: for that reason, largely only spending cash on hosting services. recently also a few hardware nodes. it creates work for mod6 in the vein of the monthly reports. perhaps a nutty suggestion, but it could cleanly be wound down (the charter modified), and mod6 to continue the monthly reports on his blog. [22:14]
mircea_popescu: i suppose in a sense it's very much a question come to fore, "wtf is foundation actually expected to do". i know for myself it very much is expected to not do anything like hinder keccak adoption, but this seems both a small and a remote point. [22:14]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the seed funding it provided for pizarro for instance seems a very legitimate approach, "if your project has merit you get a little bit from foundation, helps other people commit." this works well in pantsuitlands too, but i suspect because its sound objectively. [22:16]
ben_vulpes: "ensure access to the mainline set of patches" was the best i ever came up with for an operating thesis. [22:16]
mircea_popescu: why does access need to be ensured ? [22:16]
ben_vulpes: heh see thread with asciilifeform [22:16]
mircea_popescu: i mean, take trilema. it's the job of http://trilema.com/2018/fetlife-the-next-derperation/ morons to a) find it b) read it and c) change their lives to fit on their own time and on their own dime. it's not fucking trilema's job to "ensure" a b or c for the morons in question. [22:17]
mircea_popescu: what's this "ensuring" in the end ? [22:17]
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855843 << absolutely. however i see risk of a tendency to 'lender of last resort' misbehaviors if unchecked (by whom?! forum clearly. which you address in your point re not throwing out everything the pantsuits touch.) [22:18]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 02:16 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the seed funding it provided for pizarro for instance seems a very legitimate approach, "if your project has merit you get a little bit from foundation, helps other people commit." this works well in pantsuitlands too, but i suspect because its sound objectively. [22:18]
mircea_popescu: yeah it certainly can't become the bank of china. [22:19]
ben_vulpes: pizarro seemed a) worthwhile endeavour b) could be let fail and the experiment run again c) had good odds of rescue mission succeeding for a time. [22:20]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855812 << you can't help people against their will. there is no such thing as "powered text". all text is powerless, the power gotta be with people. [22:20]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 01:40 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << to the extent ( and it is a ~substantial~ extent ) that a healthy btc net relies on ~widely~ available sane client, incl yes even for miners, to limit in any way the distribution of trb src is imho catastrophically stupid idea. [22:20]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun propose to 'help' heathens somehow against will. but imho anyffig that in any way makes trb noad harder to stand up than strictly must -- yields terrain to enemy. [22:23]
ben_vulpes: not surfacing every single person capable of operating a v for subsequent filtering of whether or not they are ready to convert also yields. [22:24]
asciilifeform: right nao we only have blox because chinese d00dz i've never heard of, and dun expect to, run ~trb-compat proggies. i've nfi if trb per se helps this state of affairs to continue, but for so long as it continues, oughta at least not interfere, imho. [22:25]
ben_vulpes: well obviously someone sees the value in it as at least a testbed, what cost to him of registering a key. [22:26]
* ben_vulpes must bbl [22:26]
asciilifeform: this being said, 'mining is a bug'(tm), if i knew how to gruesomely slaughter all miners while keeping something like working bitcoin net, i promise to say how. [22:27]
trinque: big difference ftr between "lender of last resort" and "startup incubator" [22:27]
trinque: the latter again, tainted by pantsuit stink, yet businesses do get started. [22:27]
asciilifeform: trinque: as mircea_popescu observed earlier, if we succumb to logic of 'word taint' we'll quickly turn into the speed of light people [22:28]
trinque: I agree. [22:28]
asciilifeform: and there's no return from that shithole [22:28]
trinque: one thing that looks interesting externally is tbh throwing first doing something to actively seek out non-knuckleheads (yo esthlos, what do you do for a living again?) and see if a quarter or two of float can get folks building things that put hard pressure on trb thriving. [22:30]
trinque: rather than trying to think of ways to throw money directly at trb. it by itself dun want any, or anything. [22:30]
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855842 << actually imho tbf performed 100% to spec even there. i fully expect tbf to be at the ~hindmost~ of all 'exciting new ideaz' adoptions, not forefront. it's a habsburg art gallery, not avant-garde. [22:31]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 02:14 mircea_popescu: i suppose in a sense it's very much a question come to fore, "wtf is foundation actually expected to do". i know for myself it very much is expected to not do anything like hinder keccak adoption, but this seems both a small and a remote point. [22:31]
trinque: as the chairs appear to have money, but not time, the investor role seems to fit best. [22:32]
asciilifeform: trinque: imho not bad idea [22:32]
asciilifeform: ( tho i cannot presently think of any concretes ) [22:32]
trinque: good investments oughta be able to drive new customers to pizarro for infrastructure. [22:33]
trinque: *also oughta [22:35]
asciilifeform: verily [22:35]
asciilifeform: the 1 gotcha is that most trb-related items afaik constrained by scarcity of skilled l1 hands, not coin as such [22:36]
asciilifeform: on the 1 occasion when shortage of coin was the burning fire, tbf stepped up and did just this. [22:37]
trinque: only thing gonna free up l1 hands is wealthier l1 [22:37]
asciilifeform: trinque: tru. but nobody's about to become mircea_popescu off what's in the tbf piggy as we know it.. [22:37]
asciilifeform: it's pretty modest atm. [22:38]
trinque: see what I said about seeding businesses [22:39]
trinque: didn't say eat the seeds [22:39]
asciilifeform: rright, but point was orig 'the skilled hands are few and short time' [22:39]
asciilifeform: a bitcent or 2 doesnt change this. [22:40]
trinque: their time is short because they're all pulling salaries in shitland [22:40]
trinque: no offense to anyone involved [22:41]
asciilifeform: i can speak only for self, but at least in my case it is tru [22:41]
trinque: pulling bread from shitland, salary or not. so am I [22:42]
asciilifeform: and i suppose if other l1 similarly imprisoned but cheaper to ransom than asciilifeform , could potentially make effect [22:42]
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform in particular could not ransom even with entire piggy , sadly. but fortunately there are other folx with hands growing from right organ ) [22:43]
asciilifeform: Mocky, for instance, is a very compact but quite competent fella. ( but mircea_popescu already snapped him up for a diff proj ) [22:46]
trinque: speculative proposal is to have tbf do same snapping up of their l2, see what happens. [22:47]
trinque: this isn't me gunning for a seed round for myself. [22:47]
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855856 << this is by far the larger concern. [23:55]
a111: Logged on 2018-09-30 02:24 ben_vulpes: not surfacing every single person capable of operating a v for subsequent filtering of whether or not they are ready to convert also yields. [23:55]
mircea_popescu: people using your software that are the usual sort of idiots... you ain't got anything going there. [23:55]
mircea_popescu: i see the point of hind-front, though ideally not entirely as a time function. [23:58]
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