Forum logs for 28 Apr 2015

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

*	Now talking on #bitcoin-assets	[08:18]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets is: http://bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://log.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com \|\| http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com	[08:18]
*	Topic for #bitcoin-assets set by kakobrekla!~kako@unaffiliated/kakobrekla at Wed Mar 5 16:58:12 2014	[08:18]
-assbot-	Welcome to #bitcoin-assets. To get voice (ie, to be able to speak), send me "!up" in a private message to get an OTP. You must have a sufficient WoT rating. If you do not have a WoT account or sufficient rating, try politely asking one of the voiced people for a temporary voice.	[08:18]
*	assbot gives voice to mircea_popescu	[08:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.00029894 = 5.7247 BTC [+] {3}	[08:22]
mircea_popescu	davout http://trilema.com/2015/a-new-lordship-list/#comment-113945	[08:22]
assbot	A new Lordship List ? on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QE9gEk )	[08:22]
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mircea_popescu	mike_c take davout for instance http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/davout/ now if I click on timestamp, i see "Feb. 16, 2015 He combats malpidity on the forums." as the penultimate entry, between Jan. 27 and Feb 3, 2011	[08:29]
assbot	davout WoT Overview - Btc Alpha ... ( http://bit.ly/1QEaYp8 )	[08:29]
mircea_popescu	don't tell me my local js is broken o.O	[08:29]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37820 @ 0.00028807 = 10.8948 BTC [-] {2}	[08:59]
kakobrekla	;;later tell pete_dushenski thats mps thing	[09:06]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[09:06]
mircea_popescu	from the svg : "stroke-linecap:butt"	[09:06]
mircea_popescu	seems appropriate.	[09:06]
kakobrekla	you wanna get log1 fixed ?	[09:07]
mircea_popescu	am i right, l2 went from 544 to 345 ?	[09:08]
mircea_popescu	sure kako.	[09:08]
mircea_popescu	what do i need to do ?	[09:08]
kakobrekla	nfi	[09:09]
mircea_popescu	can you log into acct ?	[09:09]
kakobrekla	you told me to change the ip and then it went from working to not working	[09:09]
mircea_popescu	well cause server moved	[09:09]
kakobrekla	lemme try	[09:09]
mircea_popescu	so new ip	[09:09]
kakobrekla	i am logged in	[09:10]
*	kakobrekla has no idea how the fck do i diagnose whats wrong in this 'cpanel'	[09:10]
mircea_popescu	;;later tell mike_c btw, the svg cuts ever so slightly of the names on the left, like "anielkraw" and "iatouriansky_"	[09:10]
gribble	The operation succeeded.	[09:10]
mircea_popescu	kakobrekla i think you can also ssh ?	[09:11]
kakobrekla	maybe you can spot the error if you log in ?	[09:11]
mircea_popescu	ok lets see	[09:11]
kakobrekla	aha i found thing called 'error log'	[09:13]
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scoopbot_revived	News! Chtulhu emerges! URL: http://trilema.com/2015/chtulhu-emerges/	[09:20]
assbot	Chtulhu emerges! on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DSAvRM )	[09:20]
BingoBoingo	http://abc7.com/news/video-angry-baltimore-mom-beats-son-suspected-of-rioting/684791/	[09:56]
assbot	VIDEO: Angry mom beats son suspected of rioting in Baltimore \| abc7.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzsA0s )	[09:56]
BingoBoingo	15 Officer injuries vs. 2 dozen arrests	[10:01]
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mircea_popescu	http://maybemaimed.com/2015/04/28/the-fetlife-creeplist-volume-1/ << ahaha	[10:14]
assbot	The FetLife Creeplist, Volume 1 « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzviTv )	[10:14]
mircea_popescu	"Here is a list of the first 3,730 of FetLife’s financial supporters who are male- and dominant-identified. "	[10:14]
mircea_popescu	strike down that patriarchy!	[10:15]
BingoBoingo	lol	[10:17]
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mircea_popescu	pretty cool if you ask me :D	[10:19]
BingoBoingo	Seriously, let all the agendas make fetlife lists	[10:21]
mircea_popescu	what's really funny to me is that there's a "social media site", with 3-4mn claimed "users". out of these 3-4mn, if 1% are actually there you're lucky, and out of those 1% if anothyer 1% is even vaguely worth the mention you're ahead of the curve.	[10:22]
mircea_popescu	BUT! out of all those millions... you should be surprised if like... two people get it, a month or two later.	[10:22]
mircea_popescu	that's where we're at, currently. crowd source means, you gotta get 4 mn "users" together to get two guys that get it two months later.	[10:23]
mircea_popescu	it's not even that it'd be easier to do the getting yourself, by hand. or that it'd be easier to make an eliza get it. you could actually run a school and get better results.	[10:23]
mircea_popescu	which is kind-of like how the us army works, too : you need 4 mn people employed by the pentagon to get two dudes shooting a rifle at the enemy two months later.	[10:24]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28000 @ 0.00028791 = 8.0615 BTC [-]	[10:26]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113585 << zing. lol.	[10:29]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 02:22:37; ben_vulpes: you know, that kindergarten class	[10:29]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113604 << i can't fucvking believe you actually put a translation you made in a pastebin.	[10:30]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 02:53:09; asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, et al: http://dpaste.com/3Y5NGJQ.txt	[10:30]
mircea_popescu	dude. your blog. POST ON IT.	[10:30]
mircea_popescu	why is this so counter-intuitive and hard and shit.	[10:31]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113609	[10:31]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 02:55:53; asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/piloty.txt << permacopy	[10:31]
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mircea_popescu	better. now if only it had availed itself of those magical inventions of the 70s called... html and web!	[10:32]
asciilifeform	l0l	[10:32]
mircea_popescu	so you know, i can go "hmm... what else did this guy write" and stuff.	[10:32]
asciilifeform	can chop the url and get the site per se, aha	[10:32]
*	mircea_popescu falls over	[10:33]
mircea_popescu	and speaking of which... the great moment ? of yesterday ? and day before yesterday ? did i miss it ?	[10:33]
asciilifeform	it's a throwaway turd, l0l, not real article	[10:33]
mircea_popescu	there.are.no.real.articles!111	[10:33]
mircea_popescu	there isn't a real life that's gonna start just as soon as this one's tweaked into perfection, you xtian you.	[10:34]
mircea_popescu	this. this is it.	[10:34]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: didn't miss. occupied with meatspace crap atm.	[10:34]
mircea_popescu	well... once you decide to commit to sysadmining that box, you can take cpanel off :D	[10:34]
mircea_popescu	and you can even build a btc business on top of this!!1	[10:34]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: iirc it is one of those beasts that infests a machine to such a degree that it cannot really be removed in the sense of restoring the thing to virginity	[10:35]
asciilifeform	but for the humble application in mind here, can live with it	[10:35]
mircea_popescu	if you commit to sysadmining it i don't care what you do, you can reos it for all i care.	[10:35]
mircea_popescu	BUT! it's a commitment.	[10:35]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: is that thing connected to ipkvm or other device that would allow it to be re-os'd without taking an airplane ?	[10:35]
mircea_popescu	well it was os'd to my spec the first time...	[10:36]
*	mircea_popescu 's trick to "fit in head" is chopping off the details.	[10:36]
asciilifeform	again, for the current application, i have no objection to the way it is set up. it won't be issuing launch codes.	[10:37]
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mircea_popescu	aite.	[10:37]
*	mircea_popescu inspects list. fetlife check, alf check, mike check, who am i going to bother and disturb next ?	[10:38]
mircea_popescu	i guess time for meatspace for a spell.	[10:38]
asciilifeform	http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-limits-of-propaganda.html << or him	[10:38]
assbot	ClubOrlov: The Limits of Propaganda ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzzLWe )	[10:38]
mircea_popescu	i only bother intelligent life forms.	[10:38]
asciilifeform	l0l	[10:38]
mircea_popescu	the time for winning staring contests with rocks is at five.	[10:39]
asciilifeform	try the housecats in recoleta	[10:39]
mircea_popescu	i am old now, and not so easily entertained.	[10:39]
asciilifeform	very intelligent	[10:39]
asciilifeform	unrelated, http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3108	[10:41]
assbot	LTC3108 - Ultralow Voltage Step-Up Converter and Power Manager - Linear Technology ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzAhnm )	[10:41]
asciilifeform	they also sell a 'buck' (vs 'boost') version of same, for use with piezos	[10:41]
asciilifeform	(which crap out 100+v)	[10:41]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113622 << he's right there. nobody has an actual obligation to relay any tx to you in any form than in a block.	[10:46]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 03:17:06; asciilifeform: and other thing is, clients have tremendous incentive to drop mempool tx that is an obvious non-candidate for block	[10:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70826 @ 0.00029101 = 20.6111 BTC [+] {3}	[10:46]
mircea_popescu	that people currently do... people currently do all sortsa things	[10:46]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113626 << if you're a miner, that you'll include in another block. if you're not a miner, that you'll show it to other nodes, which other nodes will value you for this service, and keep talking to you, sending you txn in turn.	[10:48]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 03:19:10; ben_vulpes: seriously, because i'm retarded: what is the incentive to keep a tx in the mempool that will be included in a block but not one that won't?	[10:48]
*	assbot gives voice to lobbes	[10:48]
mircea_popescu	this latter part is not implemented yet. because power braindamage.	[10:48]
mircea_popescu	should prolly be styled as Power bRAiNdamaGER.	[10:49]
asciilifeform	right now there is only the retarded 'Dos(N, ...)' thing	[10:49]
asciilifeform	for kicking a few enumerated badnesses	[10:49]
mircea_popescu	myup	[10:50]
mircea_popescu	but once foundation gets a "node valuing" patch in...	[10:50]
asciilifeform	anyone who reads the code will probably lean to agreeing with my take on this, which is that this is one of the 1,001 things which is not happening as a simple patch	[10:50]
asciilifeform	but will have to wait for the full shebang.	[10:50]
mircea_popescu	i agree with that too.	[10:50]
mircea_popescu	but eventually...	[10:50]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113668 << pete went ironically.	[10:53]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 05:19:01; pete_dushenski: at the very least, i knew it would provide useful fodder for teh contravex cannon ;)	[10:53]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113685 << kinda shows the limits of stereotyping. black people that shoot black people are in no way related to black people who riot @ the police.	[10:55]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 07:41:15; cazalla: seeing nignogs are only too happy to fire on other nignogs, imma say their heart really isn't in this riot and it'll peter out.. it's not happening, sorry /pol/ lol	[10:55]
mircea_popescu	what's next, italian gangster and italian greengrocer = "italians" ?	[10:56]
mircea_popescu	and for the record, the "we only whack each other" behaviour is documented last fucking century. by... sinatra!	[10:56]
mircea_popescu	and even before that, by mark twain, who observed that gunslingers think nothing of killing random derps.	[10:57]
mircea_popescu	here's the actual bit :	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	I remember an instance of a desperado's contempt for such small game as a private citizen's life. I was taking a late supper in a restaurant one night, with two reporters and a little printer named—Brown, for instance—any name will do. Presently a stranger with a long-tailed coat on came in, and not noticing Brown's hat, which was lying in a chair, sat down on it. Little Brown sprang up and became abusive in a mome	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	nt. The stranger smiled, smoothed out the hat, and offered it to Brown with profuse apologies couched in caustic sarcasm, and begged Brown not to destroy him. Brown threw off his coat and challenged the man to fight—abused him, threatened him, impeached his courage, and urged and even implored him to fight; and in the meantime the smiling stranger placed himself under our protection in mock distress. But presently he	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	assumed a serious tone, and said:	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	"Very well, gentlemen, if we must fight, we must, I suppose. But don't rush into danger and then say I gave you no warning. I am more than a match for all of you when I get started. I will give you proofs, and then if my friend here still insists, I will try to accommodate him."	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	The table we were sitting at was about five feet long, and unusually cumbersome and heavy. He asked us to put our hands on the dishes and hold them in their places a moment—one of them was a large oval dish with a portly roast on it. Then he sat down, tilted up one end of the table, set two of the legs on his knees, took the end of the table between his teeth, took his hands away, and pulled down with his teeth till	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	the table came up to a level position, dishes and all! He said he could lift a keg of nails with his teeth. He picked up a common glass tumbler and bit a semi-circle out of it. Then he opened his bosom and showed us a net-work of knife and bullet scars; showed us more on his arms and face, and said he believed he had bullets enough in his body to make a pig of lead. He was armed to the teeth. He closed with the remark	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	that he was Mr.——of Cariboo—a celebrated name whe	[11:01]
mircea_popescu	so... no. it's not the race, it's the occupation.	[11:01]
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mircea_popescu	davout notbad guitar.	[11:07]
mats	http://imgur.com/gallery/PxSLN	[11:09]
assbot	10,000 Strong Peacefully Protest In Downtown Baltimore - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzFlrK )	[11:09]
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mircea_popescu	http://i.imgur.com/OAvjEta.jpg << ba speaks ?!	[11:10]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1EzFJ9I )	[11:10]
mircea_popescu	"I see a lot of people complaining about the horrible stuff looters and rioters are doing in Baltimore. This is what the media wants you to see, this is the negative side. This is being shown over and over to make you forget that a man had his SPINE SEVERED in police custody. So here are 10,000 people peacefully protesting today that no one seems to be talking about."	[11:11]
mircea_popescu	solid point.	[11:11]
BingoBoingo	Solid enough Baltimore PD is kinda getting raped with it.	[11:14]
lobbes	http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/27/us-japan-defense-deal-broadens-role-chinese-might	[11:24]
assbot	US-Japan defense deal broadens Tokyo's role in face of growing Chinese might \| US news \| The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzJ098 )	[11:24]
lobbes	'Tokyo’s readiness to embrace what Abe calls “proactive pacifism” comes amid growing anxiety in Japan and across Asia over China’s rising military and economic might.'	[11:24]
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Pierre_Rochard	re: baltimore, so far the only cogent analysis I’ve read is from the Oriole’s COO: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/john-angelos-orioles-protests_n_7153814.html	[11:41]
assbot	Baltimore Orioles Executive Passionately Defends Freddie Gray Protesters ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzMJ6o )	[11:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9387 @ 0.00030429 = 2.8564 BTC [+]	[11:46]
lobbes	!rate Blazedout419 1 small, but smooth transaction	[11:52]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/312a7bcb7edff2ae	[11:52]
danielpbarron	smooth like hand carved wood?	[11:54]
BingoBoingo	Oh, apparently there is a better alternative to Changetip nao https://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/2nzbg0/tales_from_a_bariatric_clinic_flipperham/cmisc3m	[11:54]
assbot	brainunwashing comments on Tales from a Bariatric Clinic: FlipperHam ... ( http://bit.ly/1ba7LNh )	[11:54]
Pierre_Rochard	^ micro transactions for macro gains	[11:55]
lobbes	smooth like hand carved wood? << felt more laser-cut smooth	[11:57]
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davout	http://www.legorafi.fr/2015/04/21/la-communaute-hipster-cherche-un-nouveau-mot-pour-mainstream-juge-trop-mainstream/	[11:58]
assbot	La communauté hipster cherche un nouveau mot pour « mainstream », jugé trop mainstream \| Le Gorafi.fr Gorafi News Network ... ( http://bit.ly/1ba8ihX )	[11:58]
davout	today we laugh in french, because we're so sophisticated	[11:58]
BingoBoingo	!up Altcoin	[11:59]
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Altcoin	suck my balls	[12:01]
Pierre_Rochard	davout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r7dveDEv-I	[12:02]
assbot	The Simpsons - En Francais - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzQFUG )	[12:02]
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davout	Pierre_Rochard: précisément	[12:02]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24300 @ 0.00028935 = 7.0312 BTC [-] {2}	[12:14]
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lobbes	!up ascii_field	[12:47]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24050 @ 0.00030129 = 7.246 BTC [+]	[12:50]
ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113845 << can't wait for the jp re-arm	[12:57]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 14:19:45; lobbes: 'Tokyo’s readiness to embrace what Abe calls “proactive pacifism” comes amid growing anxiety in Japan and across Asia over China’s rising military and economic might.'	[12:57]
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pete_dushenski	!up ascii_field	[13:24]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[13:24]
pete_dushenski	japan 're-arming' calls to mind images of ninjarobot armies	[13:25]
pete_dushenski	nuclear-powered ones at that.	[13:26]
ben_vulpes	pete_dushenski: didja ever read A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer?	[13:26]
pete_dushenski	can't say i did.	[13:26]
pete_dushenski	scifi ?	[13:26]
ascii_field	ben_vulpes: aka 'the diamond age'	[13:27]
ben_vulpes	yeah. has some hoplites and an (mircea_popescu'd like this one) army of girls	[13:27]
pete_dushenski	well ghaddafi'd like that too.	[13:27]
ben_vulpes	i can't speak to ghaddafi's training skills tho	[13:28]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu is basically a better read, less geographically restricted, and paler Qadaffi	[13:28]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-04-2015#1113329 << hey what'd i miss here	[13:29]
assbot	Logged on 27-04-2015 21:06:25; mike_c: chetty: cool pic! kinda sad to see boxy go :)	[13:29]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-04-2015#1113328 << aren't you writing some sort of exchange, too?	[13:29]
assbot	Logged on 27-04-2015 21:04:56; williamdunne: Suits me	[13:29]
pete_dushenski	ben_vulpes: pretty much all of the scifi books i've read were by asimov, heinlein, clarke, and... adams.	[13:30]
williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Yes	[13:30]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-04-2015#1113344 << hyuu	[13:30]
assbot	Logged on 27-04-2015 21:30:23; mircea_popescu: i also had cherisse with maraschino cherries, but thought of ben.	[13:30]
ben_vulpes	cherisse is in the same food group as la cuña?	[13:31]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: hard to say how well read muammar was.	[13:31]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: Well only way to judge that is the writings and Ghaddafi doesn't have a trilema.	[13:32]
pete_dushenski	mebbe he had diaries ?	[13:32]
pete_dushenski	personal, hand-written, old fashioned sorta things.	[13:32]
pete_dushenski	not many men of his vintage embraced the blog.	[13:33]
ben_vulpes	ascii_	[13:33]
ben_vulpes	ascii_field: the md fun anywhere near you?	[13:33]
davout	williamdunne: what are you even writing it for?	[13:33]
ascii_field	ben_vulpes: about 1hr away	[13:33]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: he was born in '69 to "The son of an impoverished Bedouin goat herder"	[13:33]
ben_vulpes	ascii_field: chinese times	[13:33]
williamdunne	davout: hoping some gurlz turn up	[13:34]
ben_vulpes	> hoping	[13:34]
ben_vulpes	> girls	[13:34]
BingoBoingo	ascii_field Ah, You're about the same distance I was from Fergusson	[13:34]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: sorry, ghadaffi was born in '42. that makes waaay more sense.	[13:34]
davout	williamdunne: what?	[13:34]
ben_vulpes	kids kinda funny	[13:34]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: yeah	[13:35]
williamdunne	davout: I'm writing it because it interesting to do, and I have some ideas it could be useful for	[13:35]
davout	the latter part being pretty much what i'm asking	[13:36]
ben_vulpes	achtung, qntrites! ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED	[13:36]
davout	;;isup trilema.com	[13:36]
gribble	trilema.com is up	[13:36]
ben_vulpes	http://qntra.net/2015/04/warrick-county-prosecutors-office-cover-up-ransomware-infection/ << ascii_field the thing is nowhere near harvested	[13:36]
assbot	Warrick County Prosecutor's Office Cover Up Ransomware Infection \| Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1QFffbW )	[13:36]
williamdunne	davout: Allowing people who are trusted significantly enough to carry out a contract, to sell their future earnings in return for money today. Sorta like an MPEX for people	[13:37]
davout	i parse that as some variant of btcjam	[13:37]
williamdunne	Not really	[13:38]
williamdunne	It wouldn't be loans	[13:38]
williamdunne	i.e I sell 40% of all my future income for xx btc today	[13:38]
williamdunne	I may make 1 btc in the rest of my life	[13:38]
williamdunne	In which case its a net negative	[13:38]
davout	ok, that would be a stock exchange	[13:39]
williamdunne	Correct >Sorta like an MPEX for people	[13:39]
williamdunne	So rather than buying S.Dice it would be P.Voorhees	[13:40]
ben_vulpes	stross had a book about this	[13:41]
davout	ic	[13:41]
ascii_field	ben_vulpes: know what the yield was ?	[13:41]
ascii_field	(of the particular turd)	[13:41]
*	ben_vulpes relents, temporarily	[13:42]
ben_vulpes	(how could i?)	[13:42]
ascii_field	i can guess - nice round number	[13:42]
ascii_field	0.	[13:42]
ben_vulpes	you can guess all you like, doesn't mean diddly.	[13:43]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113798 << hawwww	[13:43]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 13:34:26; mircea_popescu: i am old now, and not so easily entertained.	[13:43]
ascii_field	guess based on samples i collect personally	[13:43]
ascii_field	ben_vulpes: it is precisely like the spam cargo cult	[13:43]
ben_vulpes	you're not collecting water station samples, are you?	[13:44]
ascii_field	wai wut	[13:44]
ben_vulpes	the water filtration station - it's not ending up in your nets.	[13:44]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[13:54]
mircea_popescu	https://www.varnish-cache.org/docs/trunk/phk/ssl.html lawl	[13:55]
assbot	Why no SSL ? — Varnish version trunk documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/1DxwIZu )	[13:55]
kakobrekla	I think I hve found the reason for the recent spike in sales. Microsoft keeps earning me money. This time their users get infected with Cryptowall 3.0. Explains the many recent purchases of about 500 USD worth in bitcoins.	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	sigh.	[14:02]
mircea_popescu	here's me having wasted 4 hours trying to sysadmin.	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	it is obviously trivial to get varnish installed, and it will cache.	[14:03]
mircea_popescu	obviously, it will fuck up the source IP for requests. it's not obvious how to get apache to fix this.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	and so here we are, AGAIN : foss is perfectly fucking useless.	[14:04]
mircea_popescu	it "mostly" does the job, every time. it NEVER actually does the job. not ever.	[14:04]
asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[14:05]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[14:05]
ascii_field	^^^^^^	[14:05]
mircea_popescu	"it might be nginx, it might me mod_rpaf, it might be mod_futipemata ; some of these have been forked. the way to install them is make the whole fucking httpd-devel	[14:07]
mircea_popescu	as if THAT is what i wanna do.	[14:07]
mircea_popescu	http://stderr.net/apache/rpaf/ is fucking down	[14:07]
mircea_popescu	and in generall...	[14:07]
ascii_field	welcome to the sad hell	[14:08]
mircea_popescu	or you know, you could install nginx	[14:09]
mircea_popescu	because totally, that's the stack you want, 8 things long	[14:09]
mircea_popescu	or you could install apachebooster, which is... a wrapper on nginx and varnish, by "prajith"	[14:09]
mircea_popescu	who meanwhile sold it to some derp-ass host corp, that wants 9 bux a year. for what exactly ? a script ?	[14:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35100 @ 0.00029973 = 10.5205 BTC [-]	[14:10]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field the actual sad hell is not this. it is that i will solve it, and that will serve ABSOLUTELY NOBODY	[14:11]
mircea_popescu	supposedly THIS is why we're wasting all the money on "ip" enforcement : so that i am not in this position where i can say the above.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu	works about as well as fucking foss.	[14:11]
ascii_field	well yes, will solve it	[14:11]
ascii_field	how else.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu	dignork yes, it does. but apache does not look at it.	[14:11]
mircea_popescu	and i know this, incidentally, because i have meanwhile learned "vcl"	[14:12]
ascii_field	and of course it will serve no one else. that'd be, what, interchangeable parts, it isn't 1800 yet, not invented yet	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	which is a retarded domain language with consturcts like	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	remove req.http.X-Forwarded-For;	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	set req.http.X-Forwarded-For = client.ip;	[14:12]
mircea_popescu	all the boyish idiocy of "software development" needs to go die in a fire.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	!up dignork	[14:14]
*	assbot gives voice to dignork	[14:14]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: at present, no one has the fuel for this fire.	[14:15]
ascii_field	ignition - yes, buncha angry fellas with welding torches	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	dignork it's not a matter of logging it. it's a matter of, php no longer sees the source	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field hopefully i get the fetlife femmes pissy enough to combust.	[14:15]
mircea_popescu	http://old.drupion.com/resources/downloads/mod-rpaf << check it out, the file is actually lost.	[14:18]
dignork	well, it's still accessible as http header (X-Forwarded-For or similar), so it will require some minor changes to php code	[14:18]
assbot	Installing mod_rpaf on CentOS Apache server \| Managed Drupal Hosting Services on Drupal Optimized with Varnish, APC, Memcache, Apache Solr, Drush, Webmin/Virtualmin and more! ... ( http://bit.ly/1DxC8DX )	[14:18]
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mircea_popescu	random derps are willing to send you a copy. if you trust them. signatures ? wots ? wut ?	[14:18]
mircea_popescu	dignork change THE CODE because of THE SERVER ?!	[14:18]
mircea_popescu	WHAT THE FUCK I AM GOING TO BURN	[14:18]
*	badon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[14:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17040 @ 0.00030652 = 5.2231 BTC [+] {2}	[14:19]
dignork	adding reverse proxy is infrastructure change, original code might have been written with such change in mind, but even if not, usally it's a minor modification	[14:20]
mircea_popescu	the most insulting thing is that while the wisdom seems to be "eh, change the code", there does not exist a master list where you know, all the code dependencies are nicely cross-referenced, so i can just go "fuckup-php for-the-ip-poroxy-issue"	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	think about it. why the fuck should the code have to know about this. and if it does have to know about this, why aren't ALL the code references affected by any of such a change cross-indexed somewhere ?	[14:21]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: there is probably enough accumulated anger of this kind among computer users for two or three classy genocides	[14:21]
*	ascii_field has, if anyone didn't know, a whole www site about this	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	dignork the only way you would be allowed to write code, in a world where "hey, if infrastructure changes code needs to change" is with index lists of "all lines affected by X - here" "all lines affected by Y - here"	[14:22]
*	ascii_field recalls this exists as ada postprocessor	[14:22]
mircea_popescu	i am not surprised.	[14:23]
ascii_field	but this is a mega-l0l - apache crud, etc. wake me up when someone has the resources to rewrite even something that catastrophically matters, e.g. bitcoin	[14:23]
mircea_popescu	it doesn't even exist, you hear me ? the cannonical way to get ip fixed on a varnished apache is "Note that http://stderr.net/apache/rpaf/download/mod_rpaf-0.6.tar.gz where the file originally were located for some reason is off currently."	[14:24]
mircea_popescu	i thouht it's just off you know, as i happened to look at it. but no, they have blogposts about it	[14:24]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Can you not use the WordPress cacheing plugin?	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	the who now ?!	[14:25]
dignork	mircea_popescu: you wouldn't believe amount of horribly broken code which blows up in ipv6 environment, anything from integer overflows,crashes,malfunctions to firewalls leaving your machine exposed	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	dignork o, i'd believe.	[14:26]
ascii_field	dignork: we knew. which is why i banned ipv6 in my home, and press for its permanent exclusion from therealbitcoin	[14:26]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field how is it ipv6's fault!	[14:26]
ascii_field	elementarily, and all else aside, it makes naked eye analysis of lan traffic considerably more painful	[14:27]
mircea_popescu	so then use ipv2!	[14:27]
ascii_field	lol wut	[14:27]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: WP Super Cache I think its called, it Caches your HTML and serves that rather than rendering on each load	[14:28]
williamdunne	So basically like varnish but a bit more shit	[14:28]
mircea_popescu	how is it like varnish at all ? it's a php script neh ?	[14:28]
williamdunne	Maybe I'm not remembering what varnish is correctly, but it is a middleware that serves up static HTML instead of asking the server, right?	[14:29]
mircea_popescu	well, yes, but it stands in front of apache	[14:29]
williamdunne	Yeah, its a bit like that except serverside	[14:29]
williamdunne	Not ideal, but better than nothing	[14:29]
williamdunne	(Until you find a better solution, that is)	[14:30]
mircea_popescu	maybe i could reimplement apache in php first! then i could run varnish (reimplemented in php too) in front of it and not lose the ips.	[14:31]
williamdunne	Why not reimplement it in brainfuck?	[14:32]
mircea_popescu	because much like ada, brainfuck is an actually specified language	[14:34]
mircea_popescu	so it's probably not fast enough for the web.	[14:34]
*	ascii_field observes that ada uses gcc backend, but this is already known to most	[14:35]
williamdunne	++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.	[14:35]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[14:35]
asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[14:35]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[14:35]
*	ascii_field once wrote a forth to brainfuck compiler	[14:35]
williamdunne	"FXCO Ltd. 2013 - 2016 © All rights reserved"	[14:37]
BingoBoingo	https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuckfuck	[14:37]
BingoBoingo	https://github.com/jsimnz/fuckfuck	[14:37]
assbot	jsimnz/fuckfuck · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HUz4te )	[14:37]
*	assbot removes voice from dignork	[14:45]
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pete_dushenski	http://www.contravex.com/2015/04/28/we-fly-because-were-loved/#comment-16349 << ascii_field. replied.	[14:56]
assbot	We fly because we’re loved. \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1P3fw51 )	[14:56]
pete_dushenski	!up dignork	[14:58]
*	assbot gives voice to dignork	[14:58]
pete_dushenski	http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/inside-the-apple-watch-technical-teardown/ << anatomy of a closed boxen.	[15:01]
assbot	Inside the Apple Watch: Technical Teardown \| Chipworks Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1P3gz4W )	[15:02]
mircea_popescu	this shit is rich.	[15:03]
mircea_popescu	https://documentation.cpanel.net/display/EA/Custom+Modules	[15:03]
assbot	Custom Modules - EasyApache - cPanel Documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/1P3gQ7W )	[15:03]
mircea_popescu	To install a custom module, perform the following steps on the command line as the root user:	[15:03]
mircea_popescu	Download the custom module archive file to your computer.	[15:03]
mircea_popescu	With your preferred file transfer method, upload the custom module's archive file to your server's /var/cpanel/easy/apache/custom_opt_mods/ directory.	[15:03]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[15:06]
pete_dushenski	!up ascii_field	[15:06]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[15:06]
davout	mircea_popescu: i haven't been using apache for a long long while, but maybe mod_remoteip does what you want, override the source IP by some IP it finds in an HTTP header	[15:08]
mircea_popescu	yes. except it doesn't run for apache 2.2.x	[15:08]
davout	klol	[15:09]
mircea_popescu	among the changes from 2.2 to 2.4 (current) ? alf will appreciate this	[15:09]
mircea_popescu	Apache 2.4 uses a dynamic modular structure by default. This potentially can cause problems if a LoadModule directive calls a module that was not built into the Apache binary.	[15:09]
mircea_popescu	EasyApache overrides Apache 2.4's default settings and builds modules statically to provide backward compatibility.	[15:09]
mircea_popescu	static builds are "backwards compatibility" nao	[15:10]
williamdunne	Is it possible to just search through your code and edit all header["ip_address"] to header["remote_ip"]?	[15:10]
williamdunne	Or whatever the variable is called	[15:10]
mircea_popescu	i could even write a perl script to do it...	[15:10]
davout	i don't get how the structure can be "dynamic modular" and then "cause problems" when stuff isn't built right into apache	[15:10]
mircea_popescu	davout welcome to technical writing today.	[15:11]
davout	and wrt to the reference index thing, it's kind of weird that the same stuff would be defined at multiple places anyway	[15:11]
davout	unless coding is done with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V	[15:12]
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mircea_popescu	heh.	[15:14]
mircea_popescu	Compiling and Installing mod_remoteip on Apache 2.2	[15:14]
mircea_popescu	If you are running Apache 2.2, you can thank Takashi Takizawa for backporting mod_remoteip for Apache 2.2.X servers and posting it on his GitHub as mod_remoteip_httpd22.	[15:14]
mircea_popescu	so what's the wot vote, do i thank " Takashi Takizawa" for his work and download random code offa da github ?	[15:15]
mircea_popescu	what signatures or anything, it's Takashi Takizawa!!	[15:15]
davout	patch can't be that large to review	[15:15]
*	BananaLotus (~BananaLot@club.maza.club) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:15]
mircea_popescu	yeah, i am looking forward to reviewing random code for free.	[15:16]
mircea_popescu	just another $500 an hour service i do for the world.	[15:16]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, this is what the stack of shit is built on. "oh, little step X can't be too hard"	[15:17]
mircea_popescu	fuck you.	[15:17]
williamdunne	What difference would it make if he had signed it? Its not like you know the guy enough to trust him	[15:18]
mircea_popescu	but maybe i know someone who does trust him ?	[15:19]
mircea_popescu	moreover, if i do know some guys who trust him, the cost of obtaining a new Takashi Takizawa is not equal to s/Takashi Takizawa/Takashi Takizawa/	[15:19]
mircea_popescu	448 lines. i am not happy with a dollar a line. not that i'm getting paid or anything.	[15:23]
davout	yeah well, either you code due diligence or you don't, up to you, never mentioned anything about "reviewing random code for free"	[15:28]
*	assbot removes voice from dignork	[15:29]
*	bagels7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[15:32]
mircea_popescu	and if i do, it's wasted.	[15:32]
mircea_popescu	"there's free as in beer, free as in freedom, and free as in your time has no value"	[15:33]
*	Pierre_Rochard has quit (Quit: Pierre_Rochard)	[15:33]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: one way to look at it is that division of labour never really happened in computing. to the useful point where you can actually safely hand something off to a pro. instead, we're all in a situation not unlike that ru doctor in the polar expedition who had to self-appendectomy	[15:34]
mircea_popescu	the other way to look at this is that everyone involved in computer software should be sent back to third grade	[15:35]
mircea_popescu	with a month's supply of daily beatings.	[15:35]
pete_dushenski	ascii_field: or that zany dentist who did her own root canals.	[15:35]
*	badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[15:35]
Adlai	probably more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW4PH2ibdh4 since we at least have (a few old and trusted) machines on our side	[15:36]
assbot	Prometheus surgery scene - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1PT7Bt7 )	[15:36]
mircea_popescu	now back to the issue : the "backported" thing compiles. apache has no care in the world.	[15:37]
mircea_popescu	how do you drop modules into apache ?	[15:37]
davout	williamdunne: thought a bit about your project, sounds like a degenerate case of a stock exchange actually	[15:37]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[15:37]
Adlai	this is also why the only sane approach to programming depends upon homoiconicity... there's simply too much code for a single human to type by hand	[15:37]
Adlai	!up ascii_field	[15:37]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[15:37]
williamdunne	davout: Not sure why it would be degenerate, but yes. Very similar.	[15:38]
williamdunne	Hence >Sorta like an MPEX for people	[15:38]
davout	williamdunne: because if your work consists of projects X, Y, and Z you can decide to raise capital separately for each of them separately on a stock exchange, not only as "here's me, throw money at me"	[15:39]
williamdunne	Thats the point	[15:39]
williamdunne	If you believe that someone has the potential to do something great, but do not know how many attempts it may take them to do so, it allows you to bet on their success rather than the success of the current project	[15:40]
davout	in this case a stock market would have the advantage of making shitty stuff fail earlier	[15:41]
williamdunne	I'm hoping it just increases the velocity, so shitty stuff fails sooner and good stuff succeeds sooner	[15:42]
davout	"i didn't even get to try projects X and Y because the market told me it was retarded", on the other hand Z was pretty successful"	[15:42]
williamdunne	X Y and Z have a number of other metrics you can use to attain success i.e revenue growth	[15:43]
davout	what other metric than money did you have in mind?	[15:43]
ascii_field	wake me up when there is actually the money floating around to give anything serious at all its minimal take-off velocity.	[15:44]
ascii_field	(to a first approximation, afaik, there isn't)	[15:44]
williamdunne	davout: Growth of userbase etc, its not meant to be a sure-fire bet to make money	[15:44]
williamdunne	Its also more restrictive, as its not restricted to projects. i.e a student could use it if doing some sort of professional degree	[15:46]
williamdunne	Really the idea is just making it possible to invest in people rather than things	[15:46]
Adlai	ascii_field: on the contrary, the money is there, but it's steered by people who prefer to fund http://itsthisforthat.com/api.php?text	[15:47]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1PTa7j5 )	[15:47]
williamdunne	Although your issue could somewhat solved by allowing shareholders to allocate what money goes where	[15:47]
ascii_field	williamdunne: it is already possible. pick your favourite people and give $1m to each, in unmarked benjies.	[15:48]
davout	that's kind of a basic mistake here, assuming you can invest in things, if I buy a bitcoin asset I'm really investing in the people running it, not in some ethereal abstract "thing"	[15:48]
davout	williamdunne: shareholders being able to allocate "what money goes where" is pretty much a stock market	[15:48]
williamdunne	davout: If I believe paymium will possibly fail, but that you're going do something great in the future, I would be better off investing in you than paymium	[15:48]
williamdunne	davout: true	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	heh. mkay, i got it, now it's terribly broken :D	[15:55]
williamdunne	davout: Basically its no longer a bet on whether or not the project is retarded, but whether or not you're retarded	[15:57]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: What is?	[15:57]
davout	mircea_popescu: good good, let the broken http requests flow through you	[15:57]
mircea_popescu	anyway, at least now i know what needs fixing	[15:57]
davout	williamdunne: my main point is that this is already what you're doing when buying a BTC-denominated asset that's run by someone and that your idea removes more value than what it adds to the stock exchange value proposition	[16:00]
*	Xuthus has quit (Quit: Xuthus)	[16:00]
davout	but hey, at the end of the day you're the one doing the work!	[16:00]
williamdunne	davout: well it wouldn't be BTC denominated, but yeah. While it certainly removes some things, its not targeted at people who would need those things	[16:02]
lobbes	... If I believe paymium will possibly fail, but that you're going do something great in the future, I would be better off investing in you than paymium << In this case, wouldn't you just wait until he creates the project you think -will- succeed and invest in that?	[16:03]
williamdunne	lobbes: Potentially so, although of course that assumes that you have the capacity to do so, and he has the capitulation to get to that point	[16:04]
ascii_field	capitulation ?!	[16:05]
*	ascii_field head-desks	[16:05]
davout	ascii_field: looks like my french-ness shows even through IRC	[16:05]
davout	williamdunne: you're not making sense	[16:06]
williamdunne	ascii_field: Sorry for word derpage	[16:06]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[16:08]
davout	!up ascii_field	[16:08]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[16:08]
*	felipelalli (~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/felipelalli) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:10]
*	Pierre_Rochard (~Pierre@unaffiliated/pierre-rochard/x-3593157) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:17]
mircea_popescu	hallelujah!	[16:19]
mircea_popescu	i think i actually got it.	[16:19]
*	assbot gives voice to Pierre_Rochard	[16:19]
mircea_popescu	someone be so kind to leave a comment on trilema so i see if teh ip is alright ?	[16:20]
williamdunne	k	[16:20]
williamdunne	Error 503 Service Unavailable	[16:20]
williamdunne	Service Unavailable	[16:20]
williamdunne	Guru Meditation:	[16:20]
williamdunne	XID: 1771716550	[16:20]
williamdunne	Varnish cache server	[16:20]
williamdunne	On comment submit	[16:20]
mircea_popescu	gah	[16:21]
williamdunne	Okay it worked this time	[16:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22065 @ 0.00029325 = 6.4706 BTC [-]	[16:23]
*	bitstein (~bitstein@unaffiliated/bitstein) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[16:25]
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*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[16:39]
lobbes	!up ascii_field	[16:42]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[16:42]
jurov	http://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/mod/mod_remoteip.html mircea_popescu this does not work?	[16:43]
assbot	mod_remoteip - Apache HTTP Server Version 2.5 ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dycb7a )	[16:43]
mircea_popescu	jurov it's for apache 2.4	[16:43]
mircea_popescu	which, as discussed in log...	[16:43]
jurov	i see	[16:45]
mircea_popescu	well ok, this should be fixed now.	[16:46]
mircea_popescu	please everyone do report any bullshit coming from trilema!	[16:46]
mircea_popescu	jurov how do i contribute signed non-bitcoin code to the great codex ?	[16:47]
mircea_popescu	pls to excuse my noobery.	[16:47]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: GitHub is the accepted norm	[16:48]
mircea_popescu	not here.	[16:48]
davout	williamdunne: you must be new here	[16:48]
trinque	that's a paddlin'	[16:49]
williamdunne	trinque: lol	[16:49]
jurov	he means btc-dev	[16:49]
jurov	would make sense to have a new mailing list for nonbtc stuff	[16:49]
williamdunne	Ahh, I assumed MP meant the varnish code	[16:50]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Still getting; "Looks like you tried to comment off a stale page. Reload the article, count to three and try again."	[16:50]
jurov	"Server: - Varnished by MP" lol	[16:51]
Adlai	whence wothub?	[16:52]
jurov	should i make such list? and on therealbitcoin or some other domain?	[16:54]
mircea_popescu	jurov not sure if worth the hassle forjust this	[16:54]
jurov	wothub ain't bad	[16:54]
*	Adlai envisions 'wothub' as a content-addressable signed patchstore	[16:55]
trinque	we need that.	[16:55]
Adlai	so build it trinque !	[16:56]
Adlai	stop waiting for other people to take initiative	[16:56]
trinque	who says I am	[16:56]
trinque	if I find the time maybe I will	[16:56]
trinque	not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute	[16:56]
*	Adlai waits for trinque to take initiative	[16:58]
*	williamdunne not sure what is wrong with using github with pgp signatures	[16:59]
trinque	williamdunne: enemy territory	[16:59]
trinque	it should be hosted in-wot	[16:59]
williamdunne	What difference does it make if you have local backups and its all signed?	[16:59]
williamdunne	Not like they can modify the code or take it from you, just delete it from their servers	[17:00]
williamdunne	Hardly a dealbreaker IMO	[17:00]
trinque	why have factories in the US when China will produce everything for us cheaper?	[17:00]
trinque	it's a matter of growing infrastructure	[17:00]
trinque	and expertise	[17:00]
Pierre_Rochard	why not both? mirror on github, run your own git server	[17:01]
davout	while github is not an option i'm with williamdunne here, git is nice and having a foundation-operated git server would be a good thing imo	[17:01]
trinque	I am also in favor of git	[17:01]
Pierre_Rochard	^ yes	[17:01]
mircea_popescu	how gpg friendly is it ?	[17:01]
*	bagels7 (~Bagels7@MTRLPQ4362W-LP140-06-3096499874.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[17:02]
Pierre_Rochard	it’s ssh friendly, send your ssh pubkey signed with your gpg key	[17:02]
Adlai	!s darcs	[17:02]
assbot	25 results for 'darcs' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=darcs	[17:02]
williamdunne	You can store anything on git, so nothing stopping you from attaching signatures	[17:02]
davout	mircea_popescu: i think you can sign commits, also it can't really be less gpg-friendly than throwing tarballs around	[17:02]
davout	looking into it	[17:03]
Adlai	fwiw, darcs is much more friendly to the "signed patch" model of modification; git is better for 'signed code'; and neither are perfect	[17:03]
Adlai	(git only lets you sign merkle roots of the source code, rather than diffs)	[17:04]
mats	git and github is not so great	[17:04]
Adlai	although... signed roots are kinda what you want	[17:04]
Adlai	mats: what's wrong with git itself?	[17:04]
davout	http://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Tools-Signing-Your-Work	[17:04]
assbot	Git - Signing Your Work ... ( http://bit.ly/1DygLSU )	[17:04]
davout	Adlai: "In more recent versions of Git (v1.7.9 and above), you can now also sign individual commits."	[17:05]
mats	overengineered, cvs is often good enough	[17:05]
trinque	eh	[17:05]
trinque	no way	[17:05]
Adlai	LOL	[17:05]
davout	blergh	[17:05]
Adlai	!b 4	[17:05]
assbot	Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3XQWDP1.txt )	[17:05]
Adlai	fuck	[17:05]
trinque	branching is good, merging is good	[17:05]
davout	Adlai: c-c-c-combo breaker	[17:05]
Adlai	mats: shirley you're joking	[17:05]
trinque	having one goddamn tower that can get skullfucked by orcs is bad	[17:06]
williamdunne	git >>>>>>> cvs	[17:06]
williamdunne	I'll keep my commits thank you very much	[17:06]
Adlai	davout: the "sign commits" feature still essentially consists of signing a merkle root of the source tree; darks lets you sign the patch	[17:06]
trinque	prudent I think to discuss which DVCS to use	[17:06]
trinque	but DVCS by god	[17:06]
Adlai	there's stuff to be said for either side... tbh, it seems like signing merkle roots is what yall want	[17:07]
davout	Adlai: well, from what i understand of the docs, you can sign -individual commits- which is a new feature because originally it could only do what you say	[17:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53300 @ 0.00030083 = 16.0342 BTC [+] {3}	[17:08]
davout	now, how you verify them, and how you enforce mandatory signature is something else	[17:08]
Adlai	davout: an "individual commit" is still just a hash of the commit message + merkle root of the source tree	[17:08]
trinque	davout: sounds like fancy hooks	[17:08]
trinque	to reject bad pushes	[17:08]
Adlai	so, it's less convenient for signing a patch relative to an upstream repo; but is exactly what you want if you just want to have a single head to put on a stake when heardbleed 2.0 gets uncovered	[17:09]
davout	trinque: that's one thing, the other is: whenever i pull i want to verify it independently	[17:09]
trinque	indeed	[17:09]
williamdunne	*clone	[17:09]
Adlai	so you either want darcs with every single patch signed, or git	[17:10]
davout	Adlai: you're probably right, i think the difference isn't that important though, the point of the wot is to make an identity valuable	[17:10]
Adlai	git has the advantage of a single signature covering the entire current state; darcs has the advantage of letting a single signature cover changes alone. it's really a question of use case	[17:10]
Adlai	the real problem is technophobia, "I trust nothing other than butterflies and sed"	[17:11]
Adlai	... but whence the sed binary?	[17:11]
ascii_field	not the git thing again	[17:11]
davout	they're functionally equivalent, but i guess that if darcs is a better fit, why not	[17:12]
Adlai	they're not! the darcs model would've let mircea_popescu submit a single fix to apache, whereas the git model requires him to sign the entire apache source tree	[17:12]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[17:13]
Adlai	!up ascii_field	[17:13]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[17:13]
davout	Adlai: they're functionnaly equivalent, not identical, the functionality in this case being the identification of the head to chop off	[17:13]
Adlai	either approach lets you determine which fingers inserted which code	[17:14]
williamdunne	davout: How is that different to git? You can blame individual lines of coding using git	[17:14]
davout	Adlai: that's exactly my point	[17:14]
ascii_field	git is pernicious for safety-critical code because it - however slightly - reduces the expectation that every line of diff is attentively read	[17:14]
trinque	this is a social problem	[17:15]
ascii_field	by making it easy to process heavy diffs	[17:15]
trinque	not a technology problem	[17:15]
trinque	max commit size and beatings	[17:15]
davout	^this	[17:15]
ascii_field	i do -not- want nonhumanreadable state in source.	[17:15]
ascii_field	it is an abomination.	[17:15]
Adlai	what's 'nonhumanreadable'?	[17:15]
ascii_field	can't be cat'd to a vt100.	[17:16]
ascii_field	or line printer.	[17:16]
davout	ascii_field: is a tarball human readable?	[17:16]
trinque	gits data model is... lemme see if I can remember; it's been a while since I wrote a postgresql fdw into it	[17:16]
williamdunne	https://github.com/davout/bitcoin-central/blame/master/lib/liberty_reserve/client.rb	[17:16]
assbot	bitcoin-central/lib/liberty_reserve/client.rb at master · davout/bitcoin-central · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1DyjOKS )	[17:16]
trinque	commit points to other commits and a tree, tree points to tree entries, which point to blobs	[17:16]
davout	williamdunne: whiskey tango foxtrot	[17:16]
ascii_field	davout: if uncompressed - very much so	[17:16]
trinque	all things are blobs, even the aforementioned	[17:16]
trinque	keys are hashes	[17:16]
trinque	what's not to understand	[17:16]
williamdunne	davout: blame tool	[17:16]
trinque	then you have the tool atop that data model which yes, has all kinds of bullshit	[17:17]
trinque	but the data model itself is easily understood	[17:17]
trinque	and inspectable by human eyes	[17:17]
Adlai	trinque: darcs is even simpler, but has the disadvantage (which was previously mentioned as an advantage!) of allowing people to submit changes which cause malicious behavior when combined with previously-signed changes	[17:17]
davout	williamdunne: look what's your point here? that one can git-blame?	[17:17]
williamdunne	pretty much	[17:17]
davout	williamdunne: everybody fucking knows that	[17:17]
trinque	lol	[17:17]
Adlai	williamdunne: the problem here is more one of convincing ascii_field that there exists trustworthyness outside of his own skull	[17:18]
williamdunne	Ah okay, not sure if I can help with that.	[17:18]
trinque	so the process of establishing trust should be human and involve eyes	[17:18]
trinque	the process of managing a bunch of feature branches and shit, I want a tool	[17:18]
trinque	doing that manually doesn't make me smarter.	[17:18]
Adlai	signed tarballs are still corruptible, if your tar (or gpg) binary is diddled	[17:18]
trinque	everything is	[17:18]
Adlai	really this is all masturbation until we have a by-hand constructible fab	[17:19]
trinque	!rate dickhead -10 committed 1000 lines of god knows what	[17:19]
assbot	dickhead is not registered in WoT.	[17:19]
trinque	that's how you fix that	[17:19]
*	Adlai dogwalks and drinks away the shittiness of modern computing	[17:20]
davout	ascii_field: would you have no problem with a tool that you can bypass, and build the source with the actual signed commits ?	[17:21]
Adlai	sorry, not just regular old wanking - competitive masturbation	[17:21]
*	chetty has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[17:21]
davout	according to Adlai it isn't really practical to do with git, however, if darcs can output actual clearsigned diffs that would allow one to re-construct the same source tree by hand and check the sigs manually	[17:22]
ascii_field	davout: problem is not just the build	[17:22]
ascii_field	davout: but that git etc make adding crud easy	[17:22]
Adlai	davout: it's doable with git, although requires numerous calls to sha256sum and building 'ls' output by hand	[17:23]
ascii_field	and creates the expectation of using git	[17:23]
Adlai	darcs is much easier to reproduce by hand, since it's JUST applying signed patches	[17:23]
trinque	ascii_field: doesn't this apply to the use of power tools?	[17:23]
trinque	shouldn't use them because an idiot will just end up without an arm?	[17:23]
davout	ascii_field: i'm with trinque here, it's a social problem, not to be solved by tools	[17:23]
Adlai	trinque: this applies to the use of silicon that you didn't forge yourself	[17:23]
davout	but by the wot	[17:23]
Adlai	ascii_field is just choosing to trust intel/amd/etc	[17:23]
trinque	right, I can guarantee at least that I have no qualms screaming at a person that's done wrong	[17:24]
ascii_field	Adlai: it is a mistake to conclude that i trust	[17:24]
Adlai	well, we're choosig a point at which we give up on paranoia as overly hampering	[17:24]
Adlai	and arguing over where exactly that point is	[17:24]
ascii_field	notice that you -can- use git etc personally, no prob	[17:24]
ascii_field	but this is not what git aficionados want. they expect -me- to use it if i want to participate	[17:25]
ascii_field	and to have the canonical representation of the project be a git turd	[17:25]
trinque	well, the social experiment would be instructive, would it not?	[17:25]
*	Adlai is making too many typos to continue participating in the discourse	[17:25]
ascii_field	trinque: go 'experiment' with boeing's avionics code	[17:26]
Adlai	last thought: a signed-patch-dev mailing list, and some trivial darcs wrapper that consumes attachments from that mailing list to frob any random repository, whether git, darks, or - for mats's's benefit - cvs. left as an exercise to the reader.	[17:26]
ascii_field	will be an interesting social experiment, yes	[17:26]
trinque	ascii_field: if people cannot be brought to obey processes, how can any group activity ever occur?	[17:26]
Adlai	note that darcs does NOTHING beyond 'patch -p1 < thingy'	[17:27]
trinque	^	[17:27]
ascii_field	Adlai: go ahead and use it then	[17:27]
ascii_field	but don't expect me to	[17:27]
Adlai	it needs to be written first :)	[17:27]
*	Adlai dogwalk	[17:27]
ascii_field	wtf is so hard to understand re: 'the canonical representation of the project must be human-readable' ?	[17:27]
trinque	it should be noted that ascii_field's profession as I understand it is knowing how attacks occur	[17:27]
trinque	and I respect that	[17:28]
trinque	and "speed" of development should not be a value	[17:28]
ascii_field	trinque: it is a mistake to conclude that i am bringing deep wisdom from some 'respectable society' profession here. i am deliberately and profanely pissing on 'best practices'	[17:29]
trinque	ascii_field: seems you should write up what you think is an appropriate process for maintaining a "mainline" branch	[17:29]
trinque	ascii_field: I am referring to you, not an industry	[17:29]
ascii_field	why? because we have a little problem with vermin, in computing	[17:29]
ascii_field	and the only solution, at this point, is neutron bomb	[17:29]
trinque	certainly	[17:29]
ascii_field	i don't have the neutron bomb yet. so we're stuck with flamethrowers	[17:29]
davout	ascii_field: i hear your points	[17:30]
ascii_field	but even so, anyone who wants - davout, trinque, et al - can use favourite versioncontrolsystem at home	[17:30]
trinque	ascii_field: I would be pleased with a process that allowed for that, but that there is only one route to "released"	[17:30]
trinque	and think you're on the money re: how that should operate	[17:30]
ascii_field	i mean, when you write own contributions, you can generate them however you like	[17:31]
ascii_field	so long as the output is a unix patch	[17:31]
trinque	sure, I see room for collaborating on feature branches though	[17:32]
ascii_field	incidentally, for readers unfamiliar with the overall thread, the project under discussion - therealbitcoin - does not belong to me. it is run by ben_vulpes and mod6. who appear to agree with my position here.	[17:32]
trinque	ben_vulpes uses git in his day to day work, and I'm sure for a reason	[17:33]
trinque	or if not that some other dvcs	[17:33]
ascii_field	it is worth repeating precisely -why- i specified 'unix patches' to be the canonical representations	[17:33]
williamdunne	Maybe there is a good reason why this would not work, but could you not just generate an XML file that contains the names of all the files, a hash of each file, and then sign the XML? Could be automated fairly easily and would work on top of existing solutions	[17:33]
ascii_field	the ultimate product is to be a series of -human-auditable- diffs, each small and extremely narrowly focused, starting from classical bitcoind 0.5.3.	[17:33]
ascii_field	this is to establish -pedigree-	[17:33]
trinque	williamdunne: XML nein	[17:34]
williamdunne	trinque: some sort of record of the files and shasums then	[17:34]
ascii_field	williamdunne: we have this. 'manifest'	[17:34]
trinque	williamdunne: this is what the tree in git already is	[17:34]
trinque	pile of hashes and blobs they refer to	[17:34]
ascii_field	it is how i specified a de-crufted subset of 0.5.3's files on day 1	[17:34]
ascii_field	(diff does not offer a simple way to say 'deleted whole file')	[17:35]
trinque	so it lacks information	[17:35]
ascii_field	trinque: my opposition to git et al as canonical representations is because they have -any- 'behind the scenes' components.	[17:35]
trinque	I agree 100% that "canonical" as the outside world is made to see it should not be a git repo	[17:35]
ascii_field	as well as reasons listed earlier.	[17:35]
trinque	and understand your rationale	[17:36]
trinque	I think hackers here would just like to collaborate via something other than email	[17:36]
trinque	it's a shitty interface and I'm not dealing with it	[17:36]
trinque	doesn't make me feel smart to pluck a patch from an email attachment	[17:36]
ascii_field	trinque: automate.	[17:36]
trinque	and that approaches dvcs	[17:37]
ascii_field	and pluck from jurov's www forum.	[17:37]
ascii_field	trinque: no, it does not. because there is no hidden state.	[17:37]
trinque	I don't agree with "hidden" re: the state of git	[17:37]
trinque	but then I've been all through the internals of it	[17:37]
ascii_field	what's in a '.git' ?	[17:37]
ascii_field	and more importantly, wtf should i have to care	[17:37]
trinque	database of hashes and binary wads	[17:37]
trinque	it's just a key value store	[17:38]
ascii_field	and before long folks will want forking/branching	[17:38]
trinque	this is sensible, sometimes work begins on a feature that's later abandoned	[17:38]
ascii_field	and then comes the use of central server, and of ssl	[17:38]
trinque	or postponed	[17:38]
trinque	naaah	[17:38]
trinque	git solves this problem, and I can even email you a patch directly out of git	[17:38]
ascii_field	trinque: how is branching not hidden state ?	[17:38]
trinque	explain to me what is hidden	[17:38]
trinque	that it is a binary db?	[17:39]
ascii_field	i can't pipe a branched repo to a line printer	[17:39]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113879 << and younger	[17:39]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 16:23:44; BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu is basically a better read, less geographically restricted, and paler Qadaffi	[17:39]
davout	if darcs is able to output clearsigned unix patches i really don't see a reason not to use it, we can still review small individual units of work, and ascii_field's patches integrate gracefully	[17:39]
ascii_field	use it, so long as i don't have to know anything about it	[17:39]
trinque	to the extent that we do it right ascii_field should not have to care	[17:39]
trinque	yes	[17:39]
mircea_popescu	in other news, noiw im getting shit like Host: Hx92_x02 in the logs.	[17:39]
mircea_popescu	can't possibly be a problem rite ?	[17:40]
ascii_field	trinque: and if any of you produce a 100kB patch, and i barf on general principle and refuse to have anything more to do with project, don't say i didn't warn that vcs is harmful.	[17:40]
davout	trinque: "to the extent that we do it right ascii_field should not have to care" <<< that should be the criteria	[17:40]
ascii_field	for the record, i use all kinds of odd tools internally	[17:40]
ascii_field	but would never expect other folks to take that kind of radiation damage	[17:41]
davout	ascii_field: that's what's being said, it's a good tool if ascii_field doesn't know about it :D	[17:41]
ascii_field	aha.	[17:41]
trinque	I agree	[17:42]
ascii_field	when i suddenly am expected to care what's in some xml turd, or expose a box to the net just to fetch changes, or similar atrocities - i reach for barf bag	[17:42]
trinque	I promise to barf myself if XML creeps in	[17:43]
davout	ascii_field: i have some "Air France" branded ones if you're into sophisticated barfing	[17:43]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[17:43]
trinque	!up ascii_field	[17:43]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[17:43]
ascii_field	davout: i took an 'aerolinas argentinas' bag home	[17:43]
ascii_field	ty trinque	[17:43]
mircea_popescu	"expose a box to the net just to fetch changes" << what, you want it to divine the changes ?	[17:44]
ascii_field	nah removable storage	[17:44]
mod6	<+ascii_field> ... it is run by ben_vulpes and mod6. who appear to agree with my position here. << yup.	[17:48]
trinque	ascii_field: if there were even something which made the relationships between patches data, I would be satisfied.	[17:52]
trinque	that's really all I want	[17:53]
BingoBoingo	and the only solution, at this point, is neutron bomb << Better make sure your z-weighted sheilding is completely cobalt free...	[17:53]
trinque	ok, this is how I get to the point where I can work on feature X	[17:53]
trinque	this is how I build out to current release	[17:53]
trinque	the mailing list is a shitty version of this	[17:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31300 @ 0.0003015 = 9.437 BTC [+] {2}	[17:53]
trinque	seems like an ID of a patch would obviously be some hash of it	[17:54]
trinque	so then just a tree of IDs	[17:54]
trinque	to synthesize one point from that pile, I want the computer to strongly enforce relationships for me, not to mindlessly build because I'm too lazy	[17:56]
jurov	trinque, it uses SHA1 as ID	[17:58]
trinque	what does	[17:58]
trinque	git, yeah	[17:59]
trinque	this is a hypothetical	[17:59]
mod6	the mailing list	[17:59]
trinque	ah ok	[17:59]
jurov	no, btc-dev mailinglist it even renames the recognized signed attachemnts so	[17:59]
trinque	so where's the tree of hashes that tells me what builds towards the release	[18:00]
trinque	some email somewhere	[18:00]
trinque	structured data is pretty cool.	[18:00]
jurov	if you can propose some format for this accepted by stakeholder like alf, you're welcome	[18:01]
jurov	it's shell scripts atm	[18:01]
trinque	just thinking through it; I have no need to change nor authority to change a process that works for them	[18:01]
ascii_field	i'd be open to a purely gnumake-based thing instead of the sh	[18:01]
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cazalla	so Warrick County got back to me regarding the ransomware (in comic sans no less)	[18:13]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[18:14]
cazalla	qntra/trilema down here so can't update :	[18:14]
BingoBoingo	cazalla: Qntra was up for me until you said that, Wonder what MP is coding or building nao...	[18:16]
jurov	adding moar exploits to apache	[18:18]
cazalla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113823 <<< but the grocer isn't engaged in things similar to the mafioso such as robbing other businesses, so i don't see how the analogy fits.. if ya gonna throw rocks, steal beauty products and impede mr fireman's ability to put out fires by cutting hoses, why not open up on them too?	[18:19]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 13:51:08; mircea_popescu: what's next, italian gangster and italian greengrocer = "italians" ?	[18:19]
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jurov	the greengrocer prolly caused mass development of explosive gases	[18:21]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113919 << and what is then your remaining incentive to realise any future income ?	[18:25]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 16:33:22; williamdunne: i.e I sell 40% of all my future income for xx btc today	[18:25]
mircea_popescu	this was kinda popular with "artists" thinking themsleves above prostitution on myfreecams and etsy.	[18:25]
mircea_popescu	it never took off.	[18:25]
williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Getting to keep the other 60%	[18:25]
mircea_popescu	unless you pull a bugsy and sell 500%	[18:26]
williamdunne	Sure. That can be prevented though	[18:26]
mircea_popescu	o it can ?	[18:26]
williamdunne	That exact problem could exist with regular stocks. Whats the incentive for Exxon to keep generating revenue? Start up, sell out, cash out, bro down	[18:27]
williamdunne	Yeah, don't let them sell 500% of their income	[18:27]
trinque	who doesn't let them	[18:28]
williamdunne	The operator, its not like they're selling 40% of £40,000/year, they're selling 40% of whatever they make, with no guarantees of said figure	[18:28]
trinque	why invest in workers when you can invest in the businesses that own them?	[18:29]
mike_c	this HYIP sounds awesome. put me down for 500% of it.	[18:30]
williamdunne	trinque: Because people live on a different timeperiod to the company in many cases	[18:30]
williamdunne	*are alive for	[18:30]
trinque	eh that's just shitty businesses	[18:31]
williamdunne	if(percentage > 100)	[18:31]
williamdunne	return "fuck off"	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	...	[18:31]
mike_c	s/100/0/	[18:31]
mircea_popescu	im not sure you understand the difference between natural and constructive persons	[18:32]
jurov	why can't you just get normal loan?	[18:32]
mircea_popescu	but let's indulge : exxon can't smoke fucking dope.	[18:32]
mircea_popescu	EVERY human looking to sell his future is into smoking dope.	[18:32]
williamdunne	And thats part of the risk	[18:32]
williamdunne	jurov: Maybe you can, this is an alternative.	[18:33]
trinque	no that's it; the more you're willing to sell your future the higher risk "investment" you are	[18:33]
trinque	williamdunne: ^	[18:33]
williamdunne	Indeed, I'm not talking bout some sort of service where 100 people deposit money and then a "money manager" decides who to invest in	[18:34]
williamdunne	The entire point is its meant to be risky as shit	[18:35]
mike_c	mircea_popescu: you could install nginx and not install varnish. it will cache shit quite nicely	[18:36]
williamdunne	Its not really a unique idea though, been done twice as far as I can tell. Both started in US but had obvious legal issues come up	[18:36]
jurov	oh it has been done many millions of times	[18:37]
jurov	like, parents invest into you nd then expect to get a "reasonable" part of your income	[18:37]
williamdunne	I mean the platform, not the general idea of selling future income	[18:37]
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*	dignork (~dignork@unaffiliated/dignork) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:38]
williamdunne	ofc thats been done a shit ton	[18:38]
williamdunne	Governments constantly do it without consent	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	mike_c yeah, im a day wasted in here. i could waste another one. sure.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	excelt niginx also won't work.	[18:38]
mircea_popescu	for reasons.	[18:38]
jurov	williamdunne: so why do you want to undergo this, when most everyone hates it?	[18:39]
williamdunne	jurov: Did quite well on the other platforms until the SEC stepped in, not particularly large time investment needs to be made.	[18:39]
trinque	jurov: sounds like someone who doesn't deserve a loan begging with "no dude, I'll like, do anything, man!"	[18:40]
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trinque	the recourse for that person is to go find someone for whom to tape boxes shut	[18:40]
trinque	not to be handed more money to waste	[18:40]
jurov	williamdunne: that's not answer to "why"	[18:40]
trinque	aside from the foolishness of this from an investment perspective, it's not helping the guy any	[18:41]
jurov	trinque: ikr. but want to see the thought process why it supposedly beats other alternatives	[18:42]
trinque	on the other side sure, if you've got goons (read: massive govt) to beat payment out of people, loan sharking is great	[18:42]
williamdunne	jurov: "Because potentially it could make money, its an excuse to learn more tech, and there is little risk in terms of what I could lose by doing it"	[18:42]
mircea_popescu	ok, so the sad story of my wasted day : first, instlaled varnish in 10 minutes, but then spent 4 hours trying to get ip forwarding.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	finally found a way to do that. EXCEPT it injects random data at random intervals, i end up with "ips" like "8�b]"	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	and well... spend another 4 hours debugging that.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	lesson learned ... do not try to actually use software.	[18:43]
mircea_popescu	it's not usable.	[18:44]
mike_c	nginx always works. I have never been disappointed in it. Recommending shit to people is always a -EV process, but..	[18:44]
mircea_popescu	it would have been cheaper to buy a server. if i were to bill 8 hours it'd be enough to buy a fucking rack, and that's for doing stuff i actually like doing.	[18:44]
jurov	haven't i wrote somewhere that every productive day ends with patch or bugreport?	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	so you have.	[18:46]
jurov	and i don't enjoy that, too. but such is life.	[18:46]
mircea_popescu	pretty ridiculous life.	[18:47]
jurov	https://github.com/haiwen/seafile/issues/1119 << twas today	[18:47]
assbot	Self-compiled Seafile fileserver does not respond, web downloads hang · Issue #1119 · haiwen/seafile · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73jKJ )	[18:47]
williamdunne	http://web.archive.org/web/20130426124257/https://www.upstart.com/how_it_works_backers	[18:48]
williamdunne	http://web.archive.org/web/20131204165401/https://www.upstart.com/	[18:48]
williamdunne	trinque: reasons they gave	[18:48]
assbot	How it Works - Backers ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73oOx )	[18:48]
assbot	Upstart ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73oOB )	[18:48]
jurov	there's this saying about inspiration and perspiration, you know	[18:48]
mircea_popescu	jurov dude, come on, it's ridiculous. imagine if cars worked like software works.	[18:49]
jurov	oh, they did, until very recently	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	"sorry honey, can't come to dinner, i'm apparently unable to find the entry to the brooklyn bridge today"	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	"yes i know five billion people found it before. and yet..."	[18:50]
*	mogreen (~quassel@unaffiliated/mogreen) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[18:50]
mircea_popescu	"musta been a different car - and - gasoline combination i guess. going back (on foot) to gas station trying some more combos"	[18:51]
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trinque	the changes which resulted in the present state should be data	[18:51]
trinque	this in any computer system worth a shit	[18:51]
mircea_popescu	and cars NEVER worked like software works, outside of a laurel and ollie short	[18:51]
trinque	unix's "everything is a file" is a poor man's "everything is data"	[18:52]
mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJ5pHiLVZM	[18:53]
assbot	Laurel and Hardy....Imagine what could happen if IKEA started selling cars.... - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73RAj )	[18:53]
trinque	lol	[18:53]
jurov	i have 14y old daewoo, we can split "never ever" hairs but the end result and frustration is the same	[18:53]
mircea_popescu	see jurov, the thing is... i have the OPTION to not own obscure exotic cars whose maker went out of business shortly after starting because he sucked.	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	i can buy a fucking bmw.	[18:54]
mircea_popescu	there ISNT a bmw here. it's varnish or nginx. that's it. not like i'm running unheard-of-software	[18:54]
jurov	and you can not have trilema running on php	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	like sealion or w/e	[18:55]
jurov	redo in in CL	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	what'd i run it on ?	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	lmao ok.	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	and where do i find a cl server ?	[18:55]
jurov	you have your own dc last i remember	[18:55]
trinque	this is why I'd like a small board for the embedded space that does very little, and runs a lisp	[18:55]
mircea_popescu	dude. for the love of budha	[18:56]
trinque	needs a starting point	[18:56]
asciilifeform	!up ascii_field	[18:56]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[18:56]
*	ascii_field is still wondering how mircea_popescu can use that cthonian horror, cpanel	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	the fact that i own a gas station does in no way alleviate the problem that laurel&hardy cars.	[18:56]
trinque	taking on the whole goddamn space is an enormous challenge to say the least	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field works way better than this shit, ftr.	[18:56]
ascii_field	ahahahahaha	[18:56]
mircea_popescu	it.does.	[18:56]
ascii_field	ok i'll bite. how do i remove apache and get nginx	[18:56]
ascii_field	all traces of apache	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	nginx works atop apache	[18:57]
jurov	what????	[18:57]
ascii_field	wat?!!	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	srsly.	[18:57]
ascii_field	mno.	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	in cpanelworld, yeah it does.	[18:57]
mircea_popescu	it's a proxy for apache.	[18:57]
ascii_field	this feels like using winblows	[18:58]
mircea_popescu	it IS	[18:58]
ascii_field	i was even about to use the apache (all i need is to proxy to my proggy which has own http stack) but then i find that there is no /etc/apache2	[18:59]
ascii_field	and that the motherfucking cpanel thing puts it fuck knows where	[18:59]
jurov	i have everything built as nginx OR apache(never both of them) in extra process, PHP/Perl/Python in extra process(es)	[18:59]
trinque	every bakery should have their own software team because no real scotsman would pay someone else to do that	[18:59]
trinque	the lack of a turnkey solution here is absurd, just a shitty industry	[19:00]
jurov	nothing like mod_php monstrosities	[19:00]
ascii_field	why is it not in the standard location ?	[19:00]
ascii_field	what kind of dope had to be taken, to conceive of this ?	[19:00]
trinque	why is the standard location not enforced?	[19:00]
jurov	standard location on debian is /etc/httpd	[19:01]
ascii_field	should be enforced using club with nails	[19:01]
jurov	or it was redhat, dunno	[19:01]
*	trinque will yet have to be persuaded that the relational model does not solve all this	[19:01]
trinque	system state should be a database, if a simple and perhaps even plaintext one	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field it's called httpd not appache 2 in centos	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	because REASONS	[19:02]
ascii_field	aha	[19:02]
jurov	^yes	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	note it is rhel's fault.	[19:02]
trinque	"hm I didn't like that change I made to the system" << rollback	[19:02]
mircea_popescu	not cpanel's.	[19:02]
trinque	"config file is munged" << schema	[19:02]
trinque	and constriants	[19:02]
ascii_field	and where are 'sites-available' ?	[19:02]
jurov	trunque use btrfs?	[19:02]
trinque	jurov: getting closer yeah	[19:02]
trinque	but it has to know data structure and barf when it's not followed	[19:02]
trinque	it needs a reflection system; I want to interrogate the system about its structure	[19:04]
trinque	I want to be able to declare into that representation of structure new structures	[19:04]
trinque	in the same way I declare data	[19:04]
trinque	we were trying to build this at my last job, and fucked it up entirely with braindead concepts from the web space	[19:05]
trinque	the answer is probably not for example "build all into postgres" as we were doing	[19:05]
jurov	trinque you need omniprescient entity that declares forever usable schema	[19:05]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field but while we're doing the "what dope" thing, why the fuck is apache "apache2"	[19:05]
ascii_field	because there was a mega-rewrite once	[19:05]
mircea_popescu	so ?	[19:05]
trinque	jurov: explain?	[19:06]
mircea_popescu	trinque hardest problem in cs this, dude. naming.	[19:06]
trinque	yeah, so you need to be able to change structure easily	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	take the dewey decimal system.	[19:07]
jurov	every schema-based system ended up with bags of backward compatibility	[19:07]
trinque	views and actions against the reflection layer	[19:07]
williamdunne	Guessing some people wanted to kick it old school and not move to the re-write, and there was enough of them that apache updated got called apache2, but thats just a guess	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	it requires a hard guarantee you will never want more than 10 categories at any level.	[19:07]
trinque	jurov: yeah views	[19:07]
mircea_popescu	williamdunne it's exactly what it iwas, and exactly why i asked him the question.	[19:07]
trinque	relational algebra is the best model I'm aware of for deriving all needed representations of data	[19:07]
trinque	and you can easily with something that isn't braindead SQL imagine a model where the canonical representation can be changed, and new views derived from the operation taken to produce the new representation	[19:08]
jurov	wtf views?	[19:08]
trinque	so operations against the system must also be data	[19:08]
jurov	how will views solve that in version 1 you have a name=value and in version 2 you need list?	[19:08]
trinque	jurov: I cannot see how it doesn't solve that	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	he makes them all a tree.	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	including the leaves.	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	of the leaves.	[19:09]
BingoBoingo	it requires a hard guarantee you will never want more than 10 categories at any level. << No, only on the top level... After that you wade into the horror of Cutter numbers	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	only needs infinity diskspace to declare a constant.	[19:09]
trinque	no	[19:09]
*	ascii_field is blithering at the sheer amount of litter that cpanel leaves in every conceivable aspect of system	[19:09]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo cutter numbers are a kludgy bolt-on!	[19:09]
trinque	postgresql can easily produce an array from columns in rows	[19:09]
trinque	that is an aggregation	[19:09]
ascii_field	there's perhaps half a meg of generated 'do not edit!!!111!!!' crapolade in every config	[19:09]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Kludgy and bolted on to original spec	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field hey, it's data!	[19:10]
trinque	I can also easily produce a new table which materializes the output of some view	[19:10]
trinque	I can then delete the base table and call the new materialized table the canonical data	[19:10]
trinque	and this ad nauseum	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	so what's keeping you!!eleven	[19:10]
trinque	the point here is missed; I'm probably not articulating it well	[19:10]
mircea_popescu	speaking of : mind making deedbot- autovoice yet ?	[19:11]
trinque	sure, last weekend was eaten by work, but I'll try to work it in soon	[19:12]
trinque	couple days or so	[19:12]
mircea_popescu	coo	[19:12]
trinque	mircea_popescu: what I was referring to above is like the system catalog in SQL	[19:12]
trinque	lets say you alter a table with some operation; were that operation data, you could programmatically alter views against the old version to be compatible with the new, to some extent	[19:13]
trinque	obviously if information was lost in the change, you cannot	[19:13]
trinque	but if the AST of the queries is represented as data you can find that out by joining it against the schema	[19:13]
jurov	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFS (^^)	[19:14]
assbot	WinFS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1J769PP )	[19:14]
mircea_popescu	you're slowly rebuidling hoon here or w/e it was called.	[19:14]
jurov	also, KDE folks tried it in non-relational way, something kinda works but they managed to annoy everyone in the process	[19:15]
jurov	go learn from these mistakes	[19:16]
trinque	the mistake was probably "non-relational	[19:16]
trinque	"	[19:16]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4877 @ 0.00030165 = 1.4711 BTC [+]	[19:17]
trinque	relational algebra carries the stink of SQL, and this is unfortunate	[19:17]
*	JuliaTourianski_ (bc3fac86@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.63.172.134) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:17]
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jurov	and what was WinFS mistake?	[19:17]
trinque	I have to run, dunno what hoon is but I'll see if I can find info on it	[19:17]
jurov	enlighten us	[19:17]
trinque	jurov: calm down buddy; I don't have the one true way	[19:18]
trinque	dunno enough about winfs to say	[19:18]
*	Adlai readlogs	[19:24]
Adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114331 ACHTUNG SHITGNOME	[19:25]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 20:28:40; williamdunne: Maybe there is a good reason why this would not work, but could you not just generate an XML file that contains the names of all the files, a hash of each file, and then sign the XML? Could be automated fairly easily and would work on top of existing solutions	[19:25]
williamdunne	huh? Already explained why that was retarded	[19:26]
*	assbot removes voice from ascii_field	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	he parses.	[19:26]
mircea_popescu	!up ascii_field	[19:26]
-assbot-	You voiced ascii_field for 30 minutes.	[19:26]
*	assbot gives voice to ascii_field	[19:26]
Adlai	tl;r: /me needs to write a thingy that munges btc-dev into a darcs repo, jurov needs to add a general-dev mailing list so mircea_popescu can send his apache paches, and we'll all live ethanolly ever after. ssavvy?	[19:29]
mircea_popescu	it wasn't going to be a patch	[19:30]
Adlai	how so?	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	it was going to be a signed version of 448 lines of code	[19:30]
mircea_popescu	some other dude wrote.	[19:30]
Adlai	ok, you sign some other dude's patch. same diff	[19:30]
jurov	he can publish it on trilema, too. don't see how bag of disparate patches would be useful	[19:31]
Adlai	because infrastructure!	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	jurov i don't see it either, but! gotta ask.	[19:32]
mircea_popescu	this is a problem which will have to be solved, eventually. maybe not by us, maybe not in our lifetimes,	[19:33]
mircea_popescu	but once women in tech or something.	[19:33]
*	Adlai actually spend the alcohols chatting with a dark-skinned lady who was 100% coherent despite also partaking of alcohols	[19:33]
Adlai	so, there is hope for the oppressed-in-tech yet!	[19:33]
Adlai	the typos resurface thus zzz	[19:34]
jurov	you mean, she exhibits ballmer peak, thus suitable for tech?	[19:34]
Adlai	no she exhibited sentient concern for third party (my dog) while verifiably drunk	[19:35]
Adlai	she was all "this is not a good place for a dog" and i was all "bullshit my dog loves this bar because it's EV patron loves dogs and my dog is lovable"	[19:36]
jurov	and when she was sober, there was no dog concern?	[19:36]
*	Adlai has never met her sober, he's home alone now, aside from dog	[19:37]
trinque	obvious "brought home the wrong bitch" joke there	[19:37]
trinque	:D	[19:37]
Adlai	stfu my dog is a mutt	[19:37]
Adlai	!down trinque	[19:37]
Adlai	shit	[19:38]
trinque	hawhaw	[19:38]
Adlai	!down Adlai	[19:38]
*	assbot has kicked Adlai from #bitcoin-assets (Bye.)	[19:38]
jurov	trinque you were supposed to run, not concern yourself with bitches	[19:38]
trinque	already back	[19:38]
trinque	what is hoon	[19:38]
trinque	ah the urbit thing	[19:38]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: how -the fuck- does one run a python www proggy on cpanel box	[19:38]
*	Adlai (~Adlai@93.172.171.179) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	you got ssh dontcha ?	[19:39]
ascii_field	or for that matter anything other than pgp	[19:39]
ascii_field	php	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	!up Adlai	[19:39]
-assbot-	You voiced Adlai for 30 minutes.	[19:39]
*	assbot gives voice to Adlai	[19:39]
Adlai	fu mircea_popescu	[19:39]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: apache won't play along with python without a plugin 'mod_wsgi' which does not appear to exist in cpanel	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	!down Adlai	[19:39]
*	assbot removes voice from Adlai	[19:39]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field your pain makes me feel better.	[19:40]
ascii_field	and cannot be retrofitted without being clobbered by cpanel the next time it is used to make any alteration	[19:40]
*	assbot gives voice to Adlai	[19:40]
*	Adlai victorious	[19:40]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field : apxs -i -c -n mod_wsgi.so mod_wsgi.c	[19:40]
Adlai	(it took a couple tries)	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	then insert the resulting so into the apache config prepended lists	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	and you'll be fine	[19:41]
*	Adlai still doesn't understand why people are fuxing with patchy crap	[19:41]
Adlai	why not run a real webserver?	[19:41]
ascii_field	gcc: mod_wsgi.c: No such file or directory	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field obviously you have to first download the mod.	[19:41]
ascii_field	goddamnit	[19:41]
mircea_popescu	FROM A RANDOM SOURCE ON THE WEB	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	don't lose my box nao!	[19:42]
ascii_field	betcha it was 'lost' as soon as i logged into cpanel	[19:42]
Adlai	or once you installed it	[19:42]
mircea_popescu	you logged into cpanel as root ?!@	[19:43]
ascii_field	(i never had a key fingerprint for it)	[19:43]
Adlai	or did the install not involve running anything?	[19:43]
ascii_field	this box is running ten thousand tonnes of extraneous cpanelism	[19:43]
Adlai	logged into cpanel as root ?!@ << asif you need root to fandango	[19:43]
*	Adlai channels vonnegut: "To avoid root, just wait for ree boot"	[19:44]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: the apxs ... thing fails with wsgi_python.h:24:20: error: Python.h: No such file or directory and half a meg of other crapolade	[19:45]
ascii_field	mircea_popescu: please consider supplying a normal machine.	[19:46]
jurov	btw, if a bit lucky, mod_fastcgi was shipped and it's more widely supported than wsgi	[19:46]
ascii_field	because this borders on the utterly ridiculous.	[19:46]
Adlai	"wsgi" sounds awfully like "usagi" when said out loud	[19:46]
*	ascii_field has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[19:46]
Adlai	aw shucks	[19:46]
ben_vulpes	not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute << not worth it imho, leave it for someone like williamdunne	[19:47]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so it has no python ios the idea ?	[19:47]
ben_vulpes	overengineered, cvs is often good enough << haha nice try winbro	[19:48]
williamdunne	ben_vulpes: eh?	[19:48]
williamdunne	!s not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute	[19:49]
assbot	1 results for 'not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=+not+committing+to+it+while+I+can%27t+guarantee+I%27ll+execute	[19:49]
jurov	benjy just needed to vent some steam	[19:50]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00030489 = 3.4757 BTC [+]	[19:51]
williamdunne	"Adlai envisions 'wothub' as a content-addressable signed patchstore" well its doable, but I only have 'x' amount of time	[19:51]
trinque	the idea needs further development before anyone executes	[19:52]
trinque	may end up comprised entirely of local tooling	[19:52]
williamdunne	Yeah, I've not done much when it comes to native applications so anything client-side isn't really my boat	[19:53]
williamdunne	Don't even know my way around gcc properly	[19:53]
jurov	i don't get it. "by content addressable" i understand somthing like putting sha1 sum in the URL	[19:54]
jurov	and what is "patchstore" supposed to to what "store" is not	[19:54]
*	williamdunne still doesn't understand whats wrong with git and pgp sigs	[19:55]
ben_vulpes	williamdunne: git makes it easy to pretend to work on a codebase by reindenting things	[19:56]
ben_vulpes	makes large merges too easy, is at least one of asciilifeform's objections	[19:56]
ben_vulpes	makes it less likely for people to review changes.	[19:56]
jurov	and i think other was that git stores them in opaque database. you cannot go to .git and start reading	[19:57]
trinque	the earlier thread I think well represented the lay of the land	[19:57]
trinque	having the canonical representation plaintext and readable I think is a fine thing	[19:57]
mats	ben_vulpes: windows for fun and profit	[19:57]
trinque	having history machine readable and enforced is I think also a fine thing	[19:57]
trinque	from there, perhaps no existing tool satisfies both	[19:57]
jurov	i don't remember anything about enforcing history	[19:58]
trinque	git may be several conflated problems	[19:58]
trinque	jurov: I remember saying it.	[19:59]
trinque	and it's in teh logs	[19:59]
ben_vulpes	benjy just needed to vent some steam << naw i just wanted to restart an ancient thread	[19:59]
jurov	oh i GC'd you	[19:59]
ben_vulpes	wat?	[19:59]
jurov	not you, trinque	[19:59]
jurov	anyway, primary is there's verifiable autorship and readable content of patches, plus clear repeatable way to combine the patches	[20:01]
williamdunne	One of those is a social issue, the other is solved by not accepting pulls from dickheads, no?	[20:01]
trinque	jurov: indeed, that last bit is what I've been harping on	[20:02]
ben_vulpes	williamdunne: what is a pull?	[20:02]
jurov	triuque yes, but it does not necessarily equal to managing history	[20:03]
williamdunne	ben_vulpes: I don't know if this exists outside of GitHub (I rather assumed it does) but when you fork a repo so its your own version of it, you make changes to your own copy and then request that your changes are merged into the core repo	[20:03]
trinque	pull requests are github	[20:03]
mircea_popescu	the idea needs further development before anyone executes << he has a point, and while attempted executions would prlly be useful iterations, it IS a timesink.	[20:03]
ben_vulpes	no, that's the point i wish to make. you're conflating github with git.	[20:03]
ben_vulpes	and i'm not even an expert on the finer points of the vcexen in the wild.	[20:04]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes i suspect in this sense git may be TOO easy to use. at least in some aspects.	[20:04]
williamdunne	Ah, my bad.	[20:04]
ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: dude i guarantee you that git is too easy to use.	[20:04]
ben_vulpes	not only for mission-critical shit like therealbitcoin, but even my own work.	[20:05]
Adlai	jurov: actually, you can go to .git and start reading to a much larger degree than you can do so for .darcs; git provides a provably-attributable signed directory (ie, signed file hierarchy), whereas darcs is a signed diff from... whatever th efuck came before it	[20:05]
jurov	yes, linus t. pulls changes from email, not using github	[20:05]
trinque	this idea that the tool controls the user's behavior is absurd	[20:05]
trinque	maybe when dealing with children	[20:05]
trinque	this is a distinct point from advocating git	[20:05]
trinque	the tool does not drive the fucking user	[20:05]
williamdunne	Git has pull requests in this version: http://git-scm.com/	[20:06]
assbot	Git ... ( http://bit.ly/1OBhgr1 )	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	the tool does not drive the fucking user << o really.	[20:06]
mircea_popescu	what is this idealism!	[20:06]
Adlai	williamdunne: the problem is that git doesn't provide human-verifiable provenance	[20:07]
Adlai	(whereas darcs does, but it has its own clusterfuck of troubles)	[20:07]
trinque	mircea_popescu: when holding my gun should I wear an arm brace such that I am prevented from blowing my brains out?	[20:07]
mircea_popescu	no, but that's not the angle being discussed.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	the angle being discussed is : give a man a hammer, suddenly he's looking for nails.	[20:08]
mircea_popescu	tools drive behaviour. in spades.	[20:08]
trinque	that is a fair point	[20:09]
*	Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[20:09]
trinque	but should a hammer be called for, one limited such that it cannot be weaponized will also be gimped for hammering	[20:10]
*	Adlai concludes that he should a) write the btc-dev-darcs-wrapper, and b) keep it to himself, so other people have to write their own	[20:10]
trinque	^ I don't like that for the record; let every man forge his own AK	[20:10]
trinque	surely there's a balance to be struck.	[20:11]
Adlai	AKs are fucking simple	[20:11]
trinque	alright, you forge one while I'm loading	[20:11]
Adlai	no offense but have you ever fired an assault rifle?	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	Adlai how about b) and make it good enough so its effect upon the world is to make more people of the like adlai can stand	[20:11]
mircea_popescu	as opposed to more idiots.	[20:11]
*	Luke-Jr (~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:12]
Adlai	mircea_popescu: aiui, anything that does not consist of 'cat \| /dev/eip' is not good enough	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	there is such a thing as tools that make people smarter.	[20:12]
trinque	Adlai \| no offense but have you ever fired an assault rifle? << this is in no way relevant to what I said	[20:12]
mircea_popescu	and there are tools that make people dumber.	[20:12]
trinque	and an automatic no, rifles yes	[20:12]
Adlai	rifles are for hunters. war is not a hunt, it is war	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	isn't man the best game ?	[20:13]
Adlai	'long pig'	[20:13]
trinque	obviously, and so you're going to have every soldier cast the metal for his own gun?	[20:13]
trinque	if you have time for that, great; must not be much of a war	[20:13]
mircea_popescu	trinque you know he was being facetious right ?	[20:13]
jurov	since git nor darcs will solve the conflicts... ou propose using the AKs?	[20:14]
jurov	*you	[20:14]
trinque	mircea_popescu: must've missed that	[20:14]
*	badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:14]
*	mogreen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[20:14]
*	Adlai sleeψ	[20:14]
trinque	Adlai: cya	[20:14]
Adlai	nite ite	[20:15]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114102 << expenditure is not, by virtue of that alone, "an investment".	[20:16]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 18:43:52; williamdunne: davout: If I believe paymium will possibly fail, but that you're going do something great in the future, I would be better off investing in you than paymium	[20:16]
scoopbot_revived	News! The sad story of me sniffing varnish URL: http://trilema.com/2015/the-sad-story-of-me-sniffing-varnish/	[20:16]
assbot	The sad story of me sniffing varnish on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1OBjmaC )	[20:16]
*	mogreen (~quassel@unaffiliated/mogreen) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:16]
mircea_popescu	all the derpy parents that "invest" in their children are making a stylistic choice of words, nothing more. it's a waste not an investment.	[20:16]
williamdunne	At what point does expenditure become investment?	[20:18]
ben_vulpes	never.	[20:18]
ben_vulpes	investment is predicated on a return.	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	ima have to dig up that ancient article somehow...	[20:18]
williamdunne	If you expect expenditure to result in a return?	[20:18]
mircea_popescu	rationally ?	[20:19]
ben_vulpes	this return cannot be "happiness" or any such.	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	does your expenditure CAUSE the return ? is it merely coincidental with the return ? is it merely halucinatorily related ?	[20:19]
williamdunne	I mean monetary	[20:19]
mircea_popescu	oh i c.	[20:19]
ben_vulpes	much as the girlies would like to "invest in their quality of life", such is just purchasing a big of hedonism.	[20:19]
trinque	ben_vulpes: oh have I had that conversation	[20:20]
ben_vulpes	heh who with a girl hasn't?	[20:20]
*	mircea_popescu has been blessfully spared of such nonsense.	[20:20]
ben_vulpes	except for those guys whose lunch we eat and girls we fuck	[20:20]
*	ben_vulpes rolls eyes	[20:20]
ben_vulpes	and of course mircea_popescu	[20:20]
BingoBoingo	obviously, and so you're going to have every soldier cast the metal for his own gun? << Unreasonabru, but Officers outfitting their soldiers to the Officer's chosen spec has ample historical precedent	[20:20]
trinque	much more reasonable	[20:20]
mircea_popescu	williamdunne let's go through this, it will be instructive. so, case III, halucinatorily related.	[20:22]
mircea_popescu	guy pays fortune teller for good stuff in the future. good stuff happens in the future.	[20:22]
mircea_popescu	the relation between the "investment" and the "return" is purely hallucinated.	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	case II : coincidental. guy buys lottery ticket. someone wins the lottery.	[20:23]
williamdunne	someone, or guy?	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	while it's true that the somebody who wins might even be the guy, the fact remains that someone'd win whether the guy bought or didn't buy ticket.	[20:23]
mircea_popescu	same thing with "investing in children". sure, you send schmuck to college, and someone 20 years later is going to be well educated.	[20:24]
mircea_popescu	maybe your schmuck. maybe not.	[20:24]
*	badon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)	[20:24]
mircea_popescu	case I : causal. this satisfies both implication : with investment there NECESSARILY exists return ; without investment there NECESSARILY doesn't exist return.	[20:24]
mircea_popescu	like, guy going to homestead in 1800s utah. if he goes, there's going to be his homestead. if he doesn't go... there isn't going to be.	[20:25]
ben_vulpes	what'd i run it on ? << it's not actually such a bad idea to render the whole thing as flat files and do something cleverish w/comments	[20:25]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes more 90% ism!	[20:25]
ben_vulpes	in cpanelworld, yeah it does. << haha what is this madness	[20:25]
mircea_popescu	i think asciilifeform had an aneurism meanwhile	[20:26]
*	badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[20:26]
williamdunne	If I invest in college, and the outcome is a law degree, with which I become a lawyer, how is that not investment?	[20:27]
williamdunne	I understand with a gender studies degree though..	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	if you pay for your own degree, it is.	[20:27]
mircea_popescu	if your dad pays... eh.	[20:27]
williamdunne	What if someone else pays for a degree and in return they get a % of my salary?	[20:28]
mircea_popescu	you being their slave ?	[20:28]
williamdunne	Their slave? Its a mutual agreement from the beginning	[20:29]
mircea_popescu	yes, yes. but is it a mutual agreement of that kind, where you're teh slavegirl.	[20:29]
williamdunne	If you acknowledge La Serenissima are you its slavegirl because you pay 0.1%?	[20:30]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114179 << ssh being, of course, openssl. you read the earlier link re "why no ssl" ?	[20:30]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 19:57:06; Pierre_Rochard: it’s ssh friendly, send your ssh pubkey signed with your gpg key	[20:30]
mircea_popescu	williamdunne no, but i also don't ask it to sent me to college.	[20:30]
williamdunne	Seems like a pretty rough line, either way its a choice, and the outcome is losing future income in return for something	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	you're misrepresenting dynamic equilibrium as static.	[20:31]
mircea_popescu	essentially, you(before the deal) and you(after the deal) are different and irreconciliably so.	[20:32]
williamdunne	Ah okay, I see the difference now	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	while before the deal your incentive might have been to realise future income,	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	after the deal your incentive is to sell more future income for its present value.	[20:32]
mircea_popescu	as they say, "nothing ruins a start-up quite like a bad money source early on"	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	this is that.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	it's kinda how america ruined itself, too, ironically enough.	[20:33]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114217 << for the record, you don't want a single head. you want a number of heads, and measurably stake-able.	[20:35]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 20:04:04; Adlai: so, it's less convenient for signing a patch relative to an upstream repo; but is exactly what you want if you just want to have a single head to put on a stake when heardbleed 2.0 gets uncovered	[20:35]
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Pierre_Rochard	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114839 < not necessarily: http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/04/30/1822209/openssh-no-longer-has-to-depend-on-openssl	[20:39]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 23:25:12; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114179 << ssh being, of course, openssl. you read the earlier link re "why no ssl" ?	[20:39]
assbot	OpenSSH No Longer Has To Depend On OpenSSL - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz1dOQ )	[20:39]
mircea_popescu	aha	[20:40]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Confusing OpenSSH and OpenSSL again.	[20:41]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114238 << ha!	[20:41]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 20:10:09; trinque: max commit size and beatings	[20:41]
Pierre_Rochard	BingoBoingo: they really should rebrand… maybe take LibreSSH haha	[20:42]
mircea_popescu	lol	[20:42]
BingoBoingo	Pierre_Rochard: Nah, Theo should have trademarked the word "Open"	[20:43]
Pierre_Rochard	yup, just checked, openbsd came before openssl	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114262 << lawl.	[20:44]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 20:12:42; davout: williamdunne: everybody fucking knows that	[20:44]
BingoBoingo	They've got an OpenBSD, OpenSMTP, OpenNTP, OpenSSH, They might as well stick OpenSSL with finding a new front and themselves keep LibreSSL for confusion and lulz	[20:44]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114271 << nah, that's a misstatement. take the simpler case of poems. you do not need any particular microphone, varnish or anything else to know whether my poem's any good or not.	[20:45]
asciilifeform	asciilifeform so it has no python ios the idea << it has python and even, apparently, the headers, but can't see'em	[20:45]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 20:14:38; Adlai: really this is all masturbation until we have a by-hand constructible fab	[20:45]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform welcopme to linux world alfie. i hear it's where the smart boys go.	[20:45]
mircea_popescu	and never are heard from again, except for muffled cries in the solitude of the night.	[20:46]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes i suspect in this sense git may be TOO easy to use << precisely this	[20:46]
*	bagels7 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[20:47]
asciilifeform	reminds me of an old neighbour of mine, who kept a 'colt 1911' - in his toolbox. with the drills, etc.	[20:47]
asciilifeform	hey, it makes holes, right?	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	and before anyone doubts that there can be such a thing : you COULD fuck a woman with a 3 inch drill bit attached to a percution drill.	[20:47]
asciilifeform	and -so easy-	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	you do not do this.	[20:47]
mircea_popescu	ha!	[20:47]
asciilifeform	heh who with a girl hasn't? << nor me either	[20:49]
mircea_popescu	this discussion makes me not feel so bad about havin sniffed varnish all day.	[20:50]
asciilifeform	asciilifeform welcopme to linux world alfie << wtf linux world is this. i must've been living in a parallel one since quitting bsd ('04)	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	yeah. it's called solipsism and it ain't a world!	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	"oh but MY computer works..."	[20:51]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25089 @ 0.00029383 = 7.3719 BTC [-] {2}	[20:51]
mircea_popescu	"really ? how do i make one ?" "oh..."	[20:51]
asciilifeform	fleet of.	[20:52]
asciilifeform	'how do i make?' 'like this..'	[20:52]
mircea_popescu	i am still awaiting your gentoo canonical build being published / your canonical web hoster being enacted on this or any other box etc.	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	dun let me get in the way of meta-linux, by all means!	[20:53]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114312 << it'd be nice if something got compiled before i die.	[20:55]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 20:23:19; trinque: and "speed" of development should not be a value	[20:55]
BingoBoingo	https://twitter.com/MarkPuente/status/592894321583611907	[20:56]
assbot	This Rollin' 60s Crips member says he pulled /justin_fenton to safety today during a flare up. http://t.co/UWMIkLCTV5	[20:56]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field: trinque: and if any of you produce a 100kB patch, and i barf on general principle << there is a problem here. the code as it is is pretty long. just a simple "remove most of it" will be in the kbs.	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	nothing but -s in the diff	[21:00]
mircea_popescu	i doubt the magical patch that fixes the 1001 things will fit in 100kb for instance.	[21:01]
trinque	yeh, I prefer the hate one's peers rather than arbitrary rules	[21:01]
trinque	*the hate of	[21:01]
trinque	patches of whatever size make sense, and there's a process by which everyone else can call the patch shit in public	[21:01]
mircea_popescu	trinque merely calling things shit is no golden bullet.	[21:02]
trinque	doesn't seem there is one, neh?	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	unless some sort of consensus can emerge the public'll just split	[21:02]
mircea_popescu	ascii_field: i'd be open to a purely gnumake-based thing << this before make starts building static or only after ? :D	[21:04]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114418 << sorry bout that. was trying to improve things. went about as well as you'd expect.	[21:05]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 21:09:48; cazalla: qntra/trilema down here so can't update :	[21:05]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114480 << recommending shit to me is not necessarily -ev, especially if it works. i have an elephantine memory.	[21:08]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 21:38:56; mike_c: nginx always works. I have never been disappointed in it. Recommending shit to people is always a -EV process, but..	[21:08]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1114626 << the thing yarvin was building leaky submarines out of	[21:09]
assbot	Logged on 28-04-2015 22:12:44; trinque: I have to run, dunno what hoon is but I'll see if I can find info on it	[21:09]
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asciilifeform	i am still awaiting your gentoo canonical << not even objecting to the linux flavour of that box, but to the cpanel idiocy	[21:17]
asciilifeform	it poisons every single config on the box, and assumes php	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	but the python stuff you ran into is pure linux,	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	the misplaced apache is pure linux	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	etc.	[21:17]
asciilifeform	the requiring apache (and not just any, but cpanel's custom) is cpanelism	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	except it doesn't require apache to run a script	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	you can just have your python run off cron, and dump stuff into mysql	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	then fish it out for web display	[21:18]
asciilifeform	mno. need to serve some static pgs	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	so create them as files	[21:18]
asciilifeform	it has to be nginx or a (human) apache	[21:18]
mircea_popescu	apache will serve them if in the right directories	[21:18]
asciilifeform	you can just have your python run off cron << how both will restart synchronized ?	[21:20]
asciilifeform	this is ludicrous	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	wut ?	[21:20]
asciilifeform	i want the two to restart together	[21:20]
asciilifeform	and i want -one- log	[21:20]
mircea_popescu	the wto who	[21:20]
asciilifeform	static and dynamic content servers	[21:21]
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asciilifeform	normally this is achieved by having apache (or nginx) pass through to, e.g., python	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	you want a python script to be executed on page load ?	[21:22]
asciilifeform	it isn't a script	[21:22]
asciilifeform	it's a continuous process	[21:22]
asciilifeform	that serves up http	[21:22]
asciilifeform	read the src if interested (under the user i created)	[21:22]
asciilifeform	simplest possible thing	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	so you have your own web server written in python ?	[21:22]
asciilifeform	not own, l0l	[21:22]
mircea_popescu	move cpanel's apache to a diff port, and allocate 80 to yours.	[21:23]
asciilifeform	the whole thing was written in about a day, if you recall, in a mighty hurry	[21:23]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: again i don't want python serving up statics	[21:23]
asciilifeform	because it is ludicrous	[21:23]
mircea_popescu	then have python drop the statics in /home/whatever and apache will automagically serve them ?	[21:23]
asciilifeform	would like to run the fucking app without changes	[21:25]
asciilifeform	like normal people.	[21:25]
asciilifeform	on normal computer.	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	cpanel has nothing to do with this.	[21:25]
asciilifeform	normal people can get mod_wsgi if they want it.	[21:26]
asciilifeform	cpanel - no.	[21:26]
asciilifeform	normal people can get -pure- nginx	[21:26]
asciilifeform	cpanel - again, no	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	move cpanel's apache to a diff port, and allocate 80 to yours. <	[21:26]
asciilifeform	and apache still runs, eats cycles for fuck knows what	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	and if python.h fails, you prolly don't have th epaths set up right, it'll fai lthe same with or without some derpy package manager.	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well actually it wouldn't run, especially if you kill that port in firewall.	[21:27]
mircea_popescu	but you can stop the service in any case.	[21:28]
asciilifeform	still end up with cpanelism autogenned crapolade in every single fucking thing in /etc	[21:28]
asciilifeform	hence the traditional 'cpanel is not removable' dictum	[21:28]
*	mircea_popescu shrugs	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	linux doesn't work. any of it. picking some random idiocy to make an example of is futile.	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	gentoo is a piece of shit. debian is a piece of shit. centos is a piece of shit.	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	apache is a piece of shiot. so is nginx. so is everytrhiong else.	[21:29]
*	asciilifeform genuinely wonders if mircea_popescu ever runs any www gadget that isn't a php bloggatron	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	nothing works, everything';s made by idiots.	[21:29]
mircea_popescu	nope. why would i even bother with www except for a blog	[21:30]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu is almost but not entirely right. we are, for instance, presently speaking through an ancient atlantian tech that sorta works.	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	oh get the fuck out. ircd ? THIS works ?	[21:30]
asciilifeform	i said 'sorta worx'	[21:30]
mircea_popescu	SO DOES EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!	[21:31]
asciilifeform	l0l	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	foss, the wonderful world of 90%	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	"we almost did a job!!1"	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	this, btw, is my constraint. fuck "fits in head", i dun care.	[21:31]
mircea_popescu	DO.THEWHOLE.JOB.	[21:31]
asciilifeform	'fits in head' is how you actually -know- that x 'did whole job'	[21:32]
asciilifeform	anything else - is conjecture.	[21:32]
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mircea_popescu	indeed.	[21:32]
asciilifeform	it is also how you know that x did -nothing but- whole job.	[21:32]
asciilifeform	so 'fits in head' is 'part of a balanced diet' with 'does whole job' (otherwise brick 'fits in head')	[21:32]
mircea_popescu	aham.	[21:33]
mircea_popescu	kinda why i'm discovering all i really like off unix these days is like... curl. grep.	[21:33]
asciilifeform	eh the only good part of unix is \|	[21:33]
mircea_popescu	somethinglikethat.	[21:33]
mircea_popescu	and tee.	[21:33]
asciilifeform	and good old tr	[21:33]
*	Cromag1 (~Cromag@c-73-218-118-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[21:38]
mircea_popescu	!up Cromag1	[21:38]
-assbot-	You voiced Cromag1 for 30 minutes.	[21:38]
*	assbot gives voice to Cromag1	[21:38]
Cromag1	HI!	[21:38]
asciilifeform	meow mix?	[21:39]
Cromag1	YES!	[21:39]
Cromag1	down me!	[21:39]
asciilifeform	!down Cromag1	[21:39]
*	assbot removes voice from Cromag1	[21:39]
trinque	asciilifeform's shit detector is impeccable	[21:39]
asciilifeform	yw Cromag1	[21:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12950 @ 0.00029075 = 3.7652 BTC [-] {2}	[21:39]
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BingoBoingo	asciilifeform from the certain corners of the internet department http://www.rooshv.com/how-i-was-backstabbed-by-dr-oz-and-his-female-producers	[21:41]
assbot	How I Was Backstabbed By Dr. Oz And His Female Producers ... ( http://bit.ly/1J7nqbN )	[21:41]
mircea_popescu	is this pickup artist drama ?	[21:42]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: where does cpanel keep apache's vhost configs, and why is this not documented anywhere ?	[21:43]
asciilifeform	i've tried three claimed locations so far and none work	[21:43]
mircea_popescu	i have nfi	[21:43]
trinque	asciilifeform: there's a question here related to my make the thing a database rant	[21:43]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: fatshaming drama	[21:43]
Adlai	vhost-: help out the poor asciilifeform	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	o, it's okay to be fat now ?	[21:44]
trinque	asciilifeform: I think I read on your blog something about how source code should be stored as ASTs not text?	[21:44]
trinque	something along those lines	[21:44]
Adlai	fat is the new phat	[21:44]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: According to Dr. Oz and Gawker media	[21:44]
trinque	imo if the state of the system is represented as structured data a lot of these "munge the config more easily" programs go away	[21:45]
Adlai	trinque: what, you want a table with two columns, CAR and CDR?	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	delusion is always sweet	[21:45]
mircea_popescu	and sweets fatten.	[21:45]
trinque	Adlai: cddditout	[21:45]
Adlai	no u	[21:45]
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trinque	Adlai: dear god my sides when http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm	[21:48]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1OBBEse )	[21:48]
trinque	let it never be said that cl does not go to 11	[21:48]
jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-04-2015#1114937 this is SOP except in chumpatron where mircea lives.	[21:48]
assbot	Logged on 29-04-2015 00:17:42; mircea_popescu: so you have your own web server written in python ?	[21:48]
danielpbarron	BingoBoingo, that guy is a wimp. that kinda situation doesn't have to end so poorly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0xoKiH8JJM	[21:49]
assbot	MEN ARE BETTER THAN WOMEN - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1OBBJfj )	[21:49]
Adlai	trinque: arguably, it doesn't: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm	[21:49]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1OBBQrx )	[21:49]
trinque	hawhawhaw	[21:49]
BingoBoingo	danielpbarron: I'm just astounded at how he suggests he anticipated his appearance on the show could be anything other than a trap and how he failed to prepare accordingly	[21:50]
danielpbarron	yeah i'm waiting for the end of the article where he admits to satire	[21:52]
*	bitstein has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)	[21:53]
*	assbot gives voice to pete_dushenski	[21:55]
pete_dushenski	"Orioles will play Wednesday's game vs White Sox with NO audience in the stands." << heh. one for BingoBoingo.	[21:55]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: At least Ferguson is decently removed from the St Louis city center	[21:56]
pete_dushenski	eh. st louis could use a kick in the pants from what i hear.	[21:57]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: In which manner?	[22:00]
asciilifeform	how the everliving fuck is cpanel used with anything other than php/static wwwtron	[22:01]
mircea_popescu	jurov what is ?	[22:08]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo mainly in terms of st louis being known for murders and crimes, and that a proper boiling over of the tensions between police and citizens could bring about positive resolution, whoever 'wins'	[22:08]
mircea_popescu	lol @the prostitution=alimony thing.	[22:09]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: Eh, There's a balance.	[22:11]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo a balance between what ?	[22:12]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: I think some hmility was imposed when some of the black kids got too amped up on "kill whitey" and started going after Bosnians. Seems they learned better than to do that within a month or so.	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	"Instantly, I knew I was walking into a trap. I looked around, half hoping for a hug or some assurance that everything was going to be okay"	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	lol this derp	[22:12]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: crime/not crime in stl	[22:13]
asciilifeform	i can't even config a fucking apache vhost on this thing.	[22:13]
asciilifeform	and apparently neither can anyone else	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	ahhh	[22:13]
mircea_popescu	so basically... cpanel is super-security. even if malware expert gets root... what good is it ? :D	[22:13]
asciilifeform	can't go far with exploded head.	[22:14]
mircea_popescu	"I tried to take the conversation out of feelings and into logic by claiming that" << roosh is a fucktard srsly.	[22:14]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo bosnians being yugoslavia vets or... ?	[22:14]
asciilifeform	'proceeding from informal to formal by formal means' (TM)	[22:14]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo and where's ferguson at these days ? i haven't heard much out of there recently.	[22:15]
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BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: Largely refugees came over in the 1990's colonized south city. The generation of Bosnians being targeted were largely the kids... The older ones seemed very unhappy about that...	[22:15]
pete_dushenski	in terms of street violence, dead cops, local politics.	[22:15]
BingoBoingo	Ferguson's been mostly tamed by Sharptoon and other FBI folk	[22:16]
pete_dushenski	ah ok	[22:16]
BingoBoingo	Back to just the normal shootings, police retreated, longtime businesses closing up and leaving	[22:17]
pete_dushenski	hm rough.	[22:17]
mircea_popescu	they're moving online ?	[22:17]
pete_dushenski	cities like ferguson would be best served by a fleet of amazon delivery drones.	[22:18]
pete_dushenski	dropping packages ordered online and heading back to homebase in the country far, far away	[22:18]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i wasted many hours and actually moved phuctor to that thing, and it runs. just can't be reached from anywhere outside of box per se, aha.	[22:18]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well, is it at least crunching the numbers ?	[22:19]
asciilifeform	would, if there were any	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	i thought we had a million key db at some point ?	[22:19]
asciilifeform	aha	[22:19]
mircea_popescu	what, your scp's broken ?	[22:20]
asciilifeform	i'm not dealing with syncing keys from the old install back into this one	[22:20]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Mostly moving to retirement	[22:20]
asciilifeform	(which is what i'd have to do if they were to be used simultaneously)	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	so then what does this do ?	[22:20]
asciilifeform	sit there sadly (tm)	[22:20]
BingoBoingo	pete_dushenski: I think you underestimate the potential drone casualties	[22:21]
asciilifeform	because box lacks normal apache	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	aha. well ok. did you break it in the process ?	[22:21]
asciilifeform	break in what sense	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	in the sense that is it still usable as a cpanel box or will i have to have it reflushed.	[22:21]
asciilifeform	can be used	[22:21]
asciilifeform	login - same	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	aite	[22:21]
*	BingoBoingo starting to believe that Stan's gentoo build is so far from normal "linux" might as well be called Stannix nao	[22:22]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: it is perfectly normal	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	a further three day experiment in the "linux is worthless and broadly unusable" meme. i guess it needed more documentation.	[22:22]
pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo not in the slightest. just that drones are cheaper than people. certainly with the us legal system such as it is. see mp's piece on 'how to go out in a blaze of glory'	[22:22]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Normal in terms of distance from your box to median boxen	[22:23]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: again, entirely normal	[22:23]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: phuctor, for instance, presently runs on 'the world's worst hoster', aws	[22:23]
asciilifeform	and did not require any wizardry there	[22:23]
BingoBoingo	When did AWS overtake Godaddy.com for that honor?	[22:23]
asciilifeform	when opened doors ?	[22:24]
asciilifeform	(charges by cpu cycle)	[22:24]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform apparently not the worst.	[22:24]
mircea_popescu	the only worse alternative to the worlds 2nd most common hoster seems to be... the world's MOST common.	[22:24]
mircea_popescu	ya know ?	[22:24]
*	decimation (~bit_nugge@unaffiliated/decimation) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:25]
*	assbot gives voice to decimation	[22:25]
decimation	aws does seem to have some degree of ddos protection	[22:26]
williamdunne	Heh? AWS worse than GoDaddy?	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	well, alf worse. "whatever i'm using currently"	[22:27]
trinque	re: the power of unix this was fun -> http://dpaste.com/1J9M2Y0.txt	[22:28]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1HPsiUa )	[22:28]
trinque	probably done like shit; was written on the can after all	[22:28]
decimation	asciilifeform: have you ever actually tried to grok ipsec? it's a nightmare	[22:29]
asciilifeform	decimation: no and can't see why i'd ever even want to	[22:29]
decimation	ipsec is worse than you think	[22:29]
decimation	yet somehow it's the defacto standard for 'vpn'	[22:30]
asciilifeform	'somehow'	[22:30]
BingoBoingo	Godaddy shoves its own Cpanel in everything	[22:30]
pete_dushenski	alrighty, time for some exercise. later gents!	[22:31]
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mike_c	mircea_popescu: you're not crazy. sorting the timestamps works in chrome, not in FF. I'll investigate.	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	weird shit huh.	[22:48]
mike_c	yes..	[22:48]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00028737 = 6.3796 BTC [-] {2}	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	i'm bracing myself for the one day when we discover unequal fives somewhere on the internet.	[22:48]
mircea_popescu	only thing that's missing out of today.	[22:49]
trinque	sounds like javascript math	[22:50]
miaviator	Michail1 midnightmagic mike_c mircea_popescu mius mixdio	[22:50]
mircea_popescu	yeah, thinking about it hey mike_c maybe cheaper than investigating is altering the date format to numeric ?	[22:50]
BingoBoingo	Nah, what's missing is me cataloguing all of the plants growning in the front flowerbeds, looking them up, and discovering the bulk of them are cardiotoxic.	[22:51]
*	decimation has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)	[22:51]
mike_c	yes, it would be, but then don't I get into arguments with the europeans?	[22:51]
mircea_popescu	shit.	[22:51]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8188 @ 0.00030438 = 2.4923 BTC [+] {2}	[23:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49850 @ 0.0003081 = 15.3588 BTC [+] {3}	[23:03]
mircea_popescu	if anyone's (for purely academic reasons) interested in this shitshow : http://sourceforge.net/p/mod-security/mailman/message/30809326/	[23:17]
assbot	ModSecurity / Mailing Lists ... ( http://bit.ly/1zbyGUe )	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	modsecurity ITSELF is buggy when interacting with mod_remoteip. the devs understand the problem about as well as you'd expect of the php folk.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	meanwhile, http://osdir.com/ml/dev-httpd/2013-12/msg00139.html	[23:18]
assbot	dev-httpd - Re: Some redundant code and comment typos in mod_remoteip - msg#00139 - Recent Discussion OSDir.com	[23:18]
mircea_popescu	ie, mod_remoteip was written by chickens.	[23:18]
*	decimation (~bit_nugge@unaffiliated/decimation) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:18]
*	asciilifeform prescribes a dose of 'computer defender' ( http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/compdef.png )	[23:18]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1zbySCZ )	[23:18]
mike_c	mircea_popescu: try now - http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/davout/	[23:19]
assbot	davout WoT Overview - Btc Alpha ... ( http://bit.ly/1QEaYp8 )	[23:19]
mircea_popescu	much better.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	what was it ?	[23:20]
mike_c	k. i also fixed the big wot graph cutting off some names on the sides	[23:20]
mike_c	changing the date format helped. went from AP style "Dec. 12, 2012", "April 12, 2012" to more simple short format "Dec 12, 2012", "Apr 12, 2012"	[23:21]
mike_c	JS date parser was choking on former	[23:21]
*	assbot gives voice to decimation	[23:24]
asciilifeform	'What's a manager to do with a heap of stuff that isn't managed and doesn't wish to be?' 'Burn it ?' (from mircea_popescu's site) << pure gold	[23:25]
decimation	http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/hayek-and-business-management/	[23:26]
assbot	Hayek and Business Management \| askblog ... ( http://bit.ly/1bc93qW )	[23:26]
decimation	"Of course, large corporations do exist. That is because as clumsy as they are, they can still be less clumsy than the alternative, which is to break a corporation into a network of contractually related divisions. "	[23:27]
BingoBoingo	'What's a manager to do with a heap of stuff that isn't managed and doesn't wish to be?' 'Burn it ?' (from mircea_popescu's site) << pure gold << This is how I've been getting exercise these past couple weeks. Shovel and glyphosate + troclopyr... Actual fire comes later	[23:28]
mircea_popescu	mike_c sounds like secret overflow eh.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform story of my lyf.	[23:37]
mircea_popescu	decimation that is not why large corporations exist. large corporations exist because it is cheaper for the socialist state to interact with larger items than with smaller items.	[23:38]
BingoBoingo	"burndown" is the only solution to certain problems in horticulture	[23:38]
decimation	he does hypothesize that later	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	that's why 100 employers of 10 employees each need a pile of paperwork from city hall, whereas one employer of 1000 employees gets free money from city hall	[23:38]
decimation	"I do think that government often tilts the scale in favor of large organizations. The high fixed cost of regulatory compliance is one factor. Government has been a key customer in industries like aerospace, information technology, and finance, and the fixed costs of selling to government are very high, because of all of the hoops that you have to jump through."	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	hoops my foot.	[23:38]
mircea_popescu	blackwater "sold to the goverment" by jumpiong through the following hoops : "if you send anyone to investigate us, we'll just kill them"	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	haliburton didn't even bother, just "lost" a trillion.	[23:39]
decimation	yeah, good point, this	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	if you were going to be raped,	[23:40]
decimation	the corruption in selling physical goods to usg is nowhere near the size of the corruption of 'selling services'	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	would you prefer being raped by ten thousand slimy worms	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	or by a bull ?	[23:40]
decimation	1024 chickens?	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	governments everywhere always prefer the bull in that equation. tho their ideal is a herd of goats.	[23:40]
mircea_popescu	apparently easier to hallucinate "a relationship" with the bull.	[23:41]
decimation	well, the government believes they can make the bull like them	[23:41]
mircea_popescu	eeexactly.	[23:41]
BingoBoingo	What socialism truly deserves is taking it from a duck of extraordinary size	[23:41]
decimation	and of course it is very much in bull's interest to pretend	[23:41]
decimation	as long as the slop keeps rolling	[23:42]
decimation	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-02-2015#1007159 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-02-2015#1007161	[23:45]
assbot	Logged on 05-02-2015 01:42:33; decimation: then I heard this podcast: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/02/glenn_reynolds.html << "Guest: It's funny--one of my friends, who has been a long-term, upper level bureaucrat in Washington said to me his favorite phenomenon to see is these people coming through these usually politically-appointed jobs and, he says: They think everybody loves them. And then they leave the job and they	[23:45]
assbot	Logged on 05-02-2015 01:42:35; decimation: that once they are not in the job any more they realize they don't have nearly as many friends as they thought they did. The smarter ones do know this. And that's why so many[?] hang onto power. "	[23:45]
Pierre_Rochard	!rate davout 1 francais, être raisonnable	[23:47]
assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d94046976d665329	[23:47]
Pierre_Rochard	!v assbot:Pierre_Rochard.rate.davout.1:400210684ec922303e0cfa010509d4eb36cacd24b5ad98a221944aac7c1aa9c6	[23:47]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for davout with note: francais, être raisonnable	[23:47]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://www.nginxcp.com/installation-instruction/ << there, random spamsite has nginx-for-cpanel prepackaged.	[23:48]
assbot	Nginx Admin Installation Instruction ... ( http://bit.ly/1zbD5GH )	[23:48]
mircea_popescu	"Tried to install and got this error message: “access key doesn’t exist create it in WHM” What to do? Thank you."	[23:48]
mircea_popescu	"At root whm go to Main >> Cluster/Remote Access >> Setup Remote Access Key Then click Generate New Key and retry to install"	[23:48]
mircea_popescu	"Thank you very much; this is working very fine now. Great script and glad to get it installed. Success!"	[23:49]
asciilifeform	for the love of god, montrezor! (tm)	[23:53]
decimation	heh linus rejects dbus in kernel with prejudice http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1930358/focus=1939166	[23:57]
assbot	Gmane Loom ... ( http://bit.ly/1zbEBZx )	[23:57]
decimation	"IOW, all the people who say that it's about avoiding context switches are probably just full of shit. It's not about context switches, it's about bad user-level code."	[23:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00029196 = 3.3575 BTC [-]	[23:58]

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