Forum logs for 18 Mar 2014
Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu
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| mircea_popescu | bc.info down huh | [00:02] |
| steven-__ | I think she said this recently in an effort to stay relevant | [00:04] |
| mircea_popescu | was last week afaik | [00:04] |
| ThickAsThieves | yep BC says it's a database server thing | [00:04] |
| ThickAsThieves | and "all coins are safe" | [00:04] |
| mircea_popescu | i imagine they would be. | [00:06] |
| asciilifeform | so, got me first digital scope. a bit pissed that it has... moving parts. (fan, and, more outrageously, relays!) | [00:06] |
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| mircea_popescu | electromechanical relays are teh best no ? | [00:07] |
| asciilifeform | surely somebody makes solid-state relays that don't attenuate 100Mhz. | [00:08] |
| asciilifeform | (yes, i know, they're almost certainly in the $10K american gizmo that my unit is a chinese copy of.) | [00:09] |
| mircea_popescu | :p | [00:10] |
| asciilifeform | funnily, the instrument (a 'rigol ds1102d') has a 'declassification guide' chapter in manual | [00:11] |
| asciilifeform | which shows which locations on the mainboard are RAMs and therefore should be used for target practice | [00:11] |
| asciilifeform | when unit is written off | [00:11] |
| asciilifeform | this tells us that nato folks probably buy these. | [00:12] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9659 @ 0.00088736 = 8.571 BTC [-] | [00:12] |
| asciilifeform | and, that they believe in a serious way, in the 'sram remanence' hypothesis. | [00:14] |
| asciilifeform | (gizmo has 'flash' on board also, being a cheap linux pc really, but it is not the only chip marked.) | [00:15] |
| mircea_popescu | may be just "what is done" according to the chinese corp in question | [00:15] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 48 @ 0.00354687 = 0.1702 BTC [+] | [00:15] |
| asciilifeform | my apologies if i'm the only one who finds this interesting. | [00:15] |
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| asciilifeform | actually i admit i've always been curious about ion migration in sram cells, but the literature is mostly silent on the subject. | [00:16] |
| asciilifeform | to no one's great surprise. | [00:16] |
| mircea_popescu | so what'd ion migration do ? show whether the user likes vi or emacs ? | [00:17] |
| mircea_popescu | or uses a lot of pine ? | [00:18] |
| asciilifeform | same idea as crt 'burnin' | [00:18] |
| asciilifeform | except, in sram | [00:18] |
| asciilifeform | one would need, likely, an instrument built for the purpose to read out the 'bias' on the bits | [00:19] |
| mircea_popescu | i get that. hence the pine comment. | [00:19] |
| asciilifeform | rather than merely using the chip as prescribed | [00:19] |
| asciilifeform | correct. | [00:19] |
| bitcoinpete | mircea_popescu: sharpened and ready | [00:20] |
| mircea_popescu | hehe isn't irc fun. | [00:21] |
| bitcoinpete | mircea_popescu: totally. | [00:22] |
| bitcoinpete | also, was this sarcastic or serious? 01:47:56mircea_popescu:"Being quiet and studious is broadly unknown in a western culture that prizes views, likes and the inane extraversion required to generate them." no see, that's attacking people's self esteem. | [00:23] |
| bitcoinpete | did I go too far? | [00:23] |
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| dexX7 | he's never sarcastic and i'm serious | [00:24] |
| dexX7 | tricky now, eh? ;) | [00:24] |
| mircea_popescu | http://fuck-the-cops.biz/old-hax.html << check it out lol. | [00:25] |
| ozbot | Reposessing web hosting accounts with Photoshop | [00:25] |
| mircea_popescu | would-be bitbet hackjer confesses | [00:26] |
| dignork | mircea_popescu, so the only problem he found is that you;re not supposed to smile on photo-id, lol | [00:28] |
| mircea_popescu | i wonder how many of the internet haxxors ever had a passport made in the first place. | [00:29] |
| mircea_popescu | i mean for one thing you can't even get one till you're 18 in many places | [00:29] |
| asciilifeform | turns out that many people in usa haven't a passport. | [00:29] |
| dignork | mircea_popescu, but googling for "us passport sample" gives plenty of much more beleivable exmaples | [00:29] |
| mircea_popescu | well googling. | [00:30] |
| asciilifeform | (and may or may not have ever seen one) | [00:30] |
| artifexd | My daughter had a passport before she as a month old. | [00:30] |
| mircea_popescu | what are you trying to do over here, give people sprains ? | [00:30] |
| mircea_popescu | artifexd im sure she'll rtemember that :D | [00:30] |
| artifexd | She won't, but mom and I will. | [00:31] |
| artifexd | Anyway, the point was that in the US, pre-18yo passports are common. | [00:31] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15650 @ 0.00088558 = 13.8593 BTC [-] {3} | [00:32] |
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| mircea_popescu | i thought that was a major issue in the us because of kidnapping concerns | [00:33] |
| mircea_popescu | (ie, married couple has falling out, either one of them takes kids to mexico) | [00:33] |
| asciilifeform | afaik you don't need passport for mexico. | [00:33] |
| asciilifeform | (from usa) | [00:34] |
| ThickAsThieves | true | [00:34] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform when i crossed there it was like... lolk. | [00:34] |
| artifexd | I can state with certainty that Ecuador has rules requiring notrized documentation from the not-present parent for taking a child out of the country. The US doesn't. | [00:34] |
| asciilifeform | nm, cancelled in '04 it seems | [00:34] |
| asciilifeform | now u.s. folks need passport to return from anywhere. | [00:35] |
| artifexd | My wife has taken our daughter to Ecuador a couple times and no one asked me a damned thing. | [00:35] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 97 @ 0.00354687 = 0.344 BTC [+] | [00:37] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 28 @ 0.00357998 = 0.1002 BTC [+] | [00:38] |
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| ughlol | mircea_popescu: found out you're a billionaire.. sorry to have spoken rudely the other day | [00:47] |
| ughlol | :P | [00:47] |
| mircea_popescu | you had ? i hadn't noticed. | [00:47] |
| ughlol | i did | [00:48] |
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| ughlol | i mean, i dont want you hiring a hitman with btc to take me out right? :P | [00:48] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: now, getting straight to the point, do you invest? =P | [00:49] |
| ThickAsThieves | ... | [00:50] |
| BingoBoingo | K pencils at the ready for this data dump | [00:50] |
| mircea_popescu | sometimes. | [00:50] |
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| ughlol | mircea_popescu: mind a pm? | [00:51] |
| mircea_popescu | yeah, you're prolly better off talking in public anyway. | [00:53] |
| mircea_popescu | more people here thjan just me. | [00:53] |
| Dimsler | it doesn't count if they are you minions | [00:53] |
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| Dimsler | your | [00:53] |
| ninjashogun | guys, I'm watching htis channel as actually in talking with ughlol I'm the one who mentioned mirceau as being high-net-worth. he's from India and has access to a much poorer network of investors than some western countries | [00:54] |
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| ninjashogun | I was talking about how many billionaires/millionaires I know as an American (just 1-2 of the former even if we include mirceau) :) | [00:54] |
| jurov | ughlol have you read recent trilema stuff? | [00:54] |
| ninjashogun | I'd like to introduce ughlol based on my conversations with him. | [00:54] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 145 @ 0.00613706 = 0.8899 BTC [+] {8} | [00:54] |
| jurov | iirc there were some pieces about you both | [00:55] |
| ughlol | jurov: not really, no.. | [00:55] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol is working on an extremely interesting social network for real spaces, based on shared interests - for exmaple, at a bar if someone is into the exact same bands as you, then you could both be notified. | [00:55] |
| ninjashogun | so it would work (my words) as an "introduction service" that - if two people both opt in - introduce each other. | [00:55] |
| jurov | wasn't that the rape stuff? | [00:55] |
| ninjashogun | No. | [00:55] |
| ninjashogun | That is a feature he is interested in adding, has nothing to do with the social network. | [00:56] |
| ughlol | jurov: The rape intervention is a part of a much bigger app. | [00:56] |
| ninjashogun | Another example I can think of is let's say two people are both open source developres. If they put that, then they'd be notified if they're at the same bar - very cool. | [00:56] |
| jurov | oh okay. just go read trilema then. | [00:56] |
| ninjashogun | Due to its double-opt-in nature, it is especially good as a dating solution. | [00:56] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00358 = 0.358 BTC [+] | [00:56] |
| ninjashogun | He is also an engineering student in India, and as such he has access to a very good source of labor. | [00:57] |
| ninjashogun | On the downside, he has no access to a venture capital ecosystem. | [00:57] |
| ninjashogun | In addition I've seen some of his skills in pentesting and security, and think he is the real deal in terms of what he can program. Here is his site, where you can see his photo and full name as well: | [00:57] |
| jurov | i don'thave a vulture capital access, too and i'm fine | [00:57] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00358 = 1.79 BTC [+] | [00:58] |
| mircea_popescu | vulture capital lol | [00:58] |
| ughlol | jurov: I think you can understand that it is difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to create something from nothing. | [00:58] |
| mircea_popescu | interesting way to put it | [00:58] |
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| jurov | ughlol, such as... bitcoins? | [00:58] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: Interesting indeed, but ofc, I am looking for investment.. You can call yourself a venture capitalist, investor, angel investor or whatever you like :) | [00:59] |
| ughlol | jurov: not bitcoins, but a mobile app | [00:59] |
| ninjashogun | sociostop.com is his current address | [00:59] |
| ughlol | a social networking app that is meant only for mobile devices | [00:59] |
| BingoBoingo | Wait, isn't this just what Tinder and Grindr do? | [01:00] |
| ughlol | since the social networking scene is shifting off computers and onto mobile devices. | [01:00] |
| BingoBoingo | Except with rape as a feature | [01:00] |
| ninjashogun | and you can see his face, name, and profile there | [01:00] |
| jurov | grindr doesn't do rape afaik | [01:00] |
| ughlol | BingoBoingo: Tinder was active since 2012, and they dont have much.. | [01:00] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, I would forget about that portion. It's very germane in India where it is a big problem. If he were from Detroit he would put in bullet tracking information based on echolocation - how far away is that shooting? :) | [01:00] |
| ughlol | I want to create a social network that completely revolves around location services | [01:00] |
| ThickAsThieves | ...these guys are scamming, sorry | [01:00] |
| ThickAsThieves | gtfo | [01:01] |
| ughlol | ThickAsThieves: can I at least discuss the idea? | [01:01] |
| ThickAsThieves | i cant stop you | [01:01] |
| ThickAsThieves | but i cant respect you either | [01:01] |
| jurov | you don't discuss, you just pew out nonsense | [01:01] |
| ughlol | There might be people interested in investing in such an idea. | [01:01] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: What ever happened to your Dogecoin investor? | [01:02] |
| BingoBoingo | ;;lasers | [01:02] |
| gribble | ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!* | [01:02] |
| jurov | ughlol the people considered it, wrote blog about it and rejected it | [01:02] |
| jurov | and you dn't even want to read it | [01:02] |
| jurov | so gtfo | [01:02] |
| ughlol | jurov: I would love to read, can you give me a link? | [01:02] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00358 = 0.358 BTC [+] | [01:03] |
| ughlol | jurov: are you talking about http://trilema.com/ ? | [01:03] |
| jurov | yes, on rilema.com some of the top right | [01:03] |
| jurov | *trilema | [01:03] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 44 @ 0.00358 = 0.1575 BTC [+] | [01:04] |
| BingoBoingo | http://trilema.com/2014/you-cannot-fix-a-machine-by-just-power-cycling-it-with-no-understanding-of-what-is-going-wrong/ | [01:04] |
| ozbot | “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.†| [01:04] |
| ninjashogun | so, ThickAsThieves, here is a COMPLETE scrollback: http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq | [01:05] |
| ThickAsThieves | no thanks | [01:05] |
| ThickAsThieves | ive been readin all day | [01:06] |
| ninjashogun | I'd like you to read through it and apologize. no way would I fabricate this, with timestamps, just for some 'scam'. I also don't know him personally. | [01:06] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 555 @ 0.0036 = 1.998 BTC [+] | [01:06] |
| ThickAsThieves | i'm already feeling woozy | [01:06] |
| ThickAsThieves | gotta save myself for this trilemaleaks event | [01:06] |
| ninjashogun | Well given that you have just taken it upon yourself to accuse me of being a scammer with ughlol it's up to you to take about 35 seconds to scroll through that and determine that, in fact, I have just met him, and you're a fucking troll who should either stop trolling and apologize or (obviously) eat shit or die | [01:06] |
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| ThickAsThieves | i dont have to do shit for you | [01:07] |
| ninjashogun | So it's really all the same to me, but I would prefer if you'd do the noble, proper thing and take a few seconds to do that. | [01:07] |
| Dimsler | fuck | [01:07] |
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| Dimsler | the trolls that this channel attracts | [01:07] |
| ninjashogun | No, of course you can sit around trying to slander and destroy people's reputations. Thanks for doing the right thing and taking 15 seconds to admit you're wrong though. | [01:07] |
| Dimsler | man nobody is giving you a penny in here | [01:08] |
| Dimsler | gtfo | [01:08] |
| ThickAsThieves | you are demonstrably capable of ruining your own rep | [01:09] |
| Dimsler | lol what rep? | [01:09] |
| nubbins` | HAHAHAHAH | [01:09] |
| Dimsler | two clowns | [01:09] |
| nubbins` | ninjashogun are you in here with your ideas again? | [01:10] |
| ughlol | Im sorry you feel that way. | [01:10] |
| ninjashogun | nubbins`, no I just introduced ughlol | [01:10] |
| * | jurov tries to think of suitable slanderous soul memepic | [01:10] |
| ThickAsThieves | now i'm putting you both on ignore for when you come back in a few weeks with your hands out for some other bullshit | [01:10] |
| benkay | ninjashogun: you ain't introducing shit we already ran him out of here. | [01:10] |
| ThickAsThieves | at least youll need to change your IP | [01:10] |
| * | nubbins` chuckles | [01:10] |
| Dimsler | lol | [01:10] |
| Dimsler | clowns | [01:10] |
| nubbins` | YOU GUISE | [01:10] |
| ninjashogun | I think his idea is perfectly fine. | [01:10] |
| Dimsler | what the idea | [01:10] |
| Dimsler | entertain all of us | [01:11] |
| ninjashogun | There's just one part of the scrollback that is funny - and that shows he's still a student :) | [01:11] |
| nubbins` | so go make things with him | [01:11] |
| Dimsler | with how sutpid itis | [01:11] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05108999 = 0.1022 BTC [+] | [01:11] |
| ninjashogun | ctrl-f "i wanna be a billionaire" - http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq | [01:11] |
| jurov | Dimsler use teh log.. and there was moar yest | [01:11] |
| ninjashogun | that part is funny :) | [01:11] |
| ughlol | nothing wrong in wanting to be a billionaire! :P | [01:11] |
| ninjashogun | i wanna be a billionaire - and a programming job can't even make me a millionaire - id have to struggle hard just to make ends meet | [01:11] |
| Dimsler | oh yeah | [01:12] |
| ninjashogun | that is very funny :) | [01:12] |
| Dimsler | two idiots | [01:12] |
| ninjashogun | and really shows his age | [01:12] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 15 @ 0.0655 = 0.9825 BTC [-] {6} | [01:12] |
| ninjashogun | But he could have the same attitude if he were in San Francisco. | [01:12] |
| ughlol | Why is everybody trolling? | [01:12] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: Now you understand why I wanted to pm? | [01:12] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol - it's the nature of htis channel, I told you | [01:12] |
| Dimsler | because you're a retard | [01:12] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol, mirceau is not going to invest in you, unless oyu had a ton of traction | [01:12] |
| benkay | Dimsler gets it | [01:12] |
| ninjashogun | you would need to have a lot of different users already. | [01:13] |
| benkay | dude ninjashogun if you say traction around mp he'll probably just kill you and feed you to the harpies | [01:13] |
| ughlol | true | [01:13] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 16 @ 0.065 = 1.04 BTC [-] | [01:13] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.0516 = 0.1032 BTC [+] | [01:13] |
| benkay | social media does not fly here. | [01:13] |
| dub | guys guys guys | [01:13] |
| jurov | rape whistle billionaires either | [01:13] |
| ninjashogun | benkay - he doesn't like that word? | [01:13] |
| Dimsler | lol | [01:13] |
| Dimsler | its like | [01:13] |
| dub | we're forgetting how important young people are | [01:13] |
| Dimsler | scammers trying to scam the scammer | [01:13] |
| nubbins` | dub ;( | [01:13] |
| ughlol | Dimsler: :) You're so full of yourself. Give me your name, and I'll destroy your rep. Only if you have the courage. | [01:13] |
| nubbins` | it's why i weep for tomorrow | [01:13] |
| ughlol | And now Im done sugar-coating shit | [01:14] |
| * | Dimsler takes out his cheque book | [01:14] |
| ughlol | just to appease you, the filthy rich | [01:14] |
| Dimsler | how many million | [01:14] |
| Dimsler | should i write out for you? | [01:14] |
| ughlol | Dimsler: just your real name bro. | [01:14] |
| nubbins` | lel. | [01:14] |
| ughlol | I bet you dont have the guts either way. | [01:14] |
| nubbins` | bro | [01:14] |
| dub | oh wow | [01:14] |
| nubbins` | why you puffin' up your chest bro? | [01:14] |
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| dub | cause internet | [01:14] |
| Dimsler | i know | [01:14] |
| Dimsler | frontin | [01:14] |
| ughlol | nubbins`: because I think I have an idea that works. | [01:14] |
| dub | ;;google greater internet fuckwad | [01:14] |
| gribble | Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory | Know Your Meme: |
[01:14] |
| Dimsler | no you don't | [01:14] |
| jurov | it whistles | [01:14] |
| ughlol | And just because you're trolls doesn't mean you can talk shit about it! :) | [01:15] |
| Dimsler | if you did why would you be in here | [01:15] |
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| ughlol | Dimsler: that is your opinion. | [01:15] |
| nubbins` | ughlol: that's lovely, an idea! congrats :D | [01:15] |
| ughlol | Dimsler: to try to gather investment ofc. | [01:15] |
| Dimsler | no i think thats fact | [01:15] |
| nubbins` | most people don't get that far | [01:15] |
| ughlol | precisely | [01:15] |
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| BingoBoingo | ughlol: Have you tried #dogecoin ninjashogun Seemed to find interest there before | [01:15] |
| ughlol | no BingoBoingo.. I haven't.. | [01:16] |
| Dimsler | lol why are you people entertaining him? | [01:16] |
| jurov | it's her, no? | [01:16] |
| Dimsler | its a woman? | [01:16] |
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| ughlol | wow | [01:16] |
| BingoBoingo | ughlol: In #dogecoin you may even find people who want to try your social thing | [01:16] |
| Dimsler | ughlol, where from nigeria are you from? | [01:16] |
| dub | why didnt you say so? where to I sign | [01:16] |
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| ughlol | Dimsler: Its funny you ask. Because there were repeated statements saying Im Indian. You must be illitereate. | [01:17] |
| ughlol | But thats okay. | [01:17] |
| Dimsler | nigerian? | [01:17] |
| ughlol | Illiterate* | [01:17] |
| ughlol | Indian. | [01:17] |
| Dimsler | why are you here? | [01:18] |
| Dimsler | everyon said no | [01:18] |
| dub | india and nigera are basically the same place | [01:18] |
| ughlol | to try and find investment for a business. | [01:18] |
| Dimsler | we are not interested | [01:18] |
| Dimsler | now leave | [01:18] |
| ughlol | dub: and you failed in geography. | [01:18] |
| mircea_popescu | http://trilema.com/2014/interacting-with-fiat-institution-a-guide/ | [01:18] |
| ozbot | Interacting with fiat institution, a guide pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. | [01:18] |
| mircea_popescu | there we go. | [01:18] |
| steven-__ | are you saying in this log you have never used source control only heard about it? | [01:18] |
| ughlol | Dimsler: You are not interested. | [01:18] |
| Dimsler | no | [01:18] |
| Dimsler | nobody is interested | [01:18] |
| ughlol | So you gtfo? | [01:18] |
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| steven-__ | Mar 17 22:52:09 |
[01:18] |
| steven-__ | Mar 17 22:52:15 |
[01:18] |
| steven-__ | Mar 17 22:52:22 |
[01:18] |
| ughlol | I wanted to speak to mircea_popescu . | [01:19] |
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| Dimsler | lol why | [01:19] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo bitcoinpete | [01:19] |
| ughlol | If he says he's not interested, I'll leave immediately. | [01:19] |
| benkay | holy shit mircea_popescu! | [01:19] |
| Dimsler | mircea_popescu, tell the troll to leave | [01:19] |
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| BingoBoingo | ACK | [01:19] |
| jurov | ughlol, you want to talk to him even after what he write on his blog? | [01:19] |
| ughlol | Yes. | [01:19] |
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| ughlol | Just to discuss. | [01:19] |
| ughlol | I feel theres nothing wrong in that. | [01:19] |
| ughlol | But only if he likes. | [01:19] |
| Dimsler | lol | [01:20] |
| ughlol | If he asks me to leave, I'll gtfo. | [01:20] |
| Dimsler | online panhandling | [01:20] |
| Dimsler | masked as a scam | [01:20] |
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| ughlol | Im not even asking for money. | [01:20] |
| ughlol | Im asking you to listen. | [01:20] |
| ughlol | and think without bias. | [01:20] |
| bitcoinpete | mircea_popescu: bam! | [01:20] |
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| mircea_popescu | so now that everyone else can be busy, ughlol what was it you wanted to discuss ? | [01:21] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: let me know if you have 10minutes to spare.. after that, I'll not bother you. | [01:21] |
| ughlol | But on pm, if you dont mind. | [01:21] |
| jurov | what if he rapes you? | [01:21] |
| steven-__ | what about the log? | [01:21] |
| ughlol | I know im practically nothing, and probably don't even deserve talking to someone like you. | [01:21] |
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| ughlol | But I admire billionaires. | [01:21] |
| Dimsler | ughlol, why? hes just a scammer like you are | [01:22] |
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| ughlol | Thats my dream, which I might never reach. | [01:22] |
| Dimsler | you might even learn somethin from him | [01:22] |
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| mircea_popescu | it's not practical to discuss things with me privately. we have no basis for that, and whatever you say is perhaps useful for others, later. | [01:22] |
| ughlol | Dimsler: Yes, I am sure I can learn something from him. Hence I want to talk. | [01:22] |
| BingoBoingo | "Asking them to pick up your daughter and throw her over a cliff however is an illegal request." | [01:22] |
| jurov | Dimsler she learned nothing so far | [01:23] |
| jurov | 10 mins wont change that | [01:23] |
| Dimsler | oh well | [01:23] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: I wont ask you about investment. Just want to learn and understand your opinion. I read your blog article, and what you say makes a lot of sense. Thats why. | [01:23] |
| ughlol | Its a request. | [01:23] |
| mircea_popescu | so go ahead and ask, what. | [01:23] |
| ughlol | Over pm please? | [01:23] |
| mircea_popescu | lemme explain how this works. | [01:23] |
| ughlol | Otherwise all your friends - Dimsler, jurov, etc will keep interrupting with their comments. | [01:23] |
| ughlol | ok? | [01:24] |
| mircea_popescu | i'm currently donating my time discussing things with people who otherwise would never get to talk to me, because i believe in some things. | [01:24] |
| Dimsler | lol | [01:24] |
| mircea_popescu | you can't try to leverage that into something that otherwise costs a whole lot of money. | [01:24] |
| ThickAsThieves | thanks for the post MP | [01:24] |
| ughlol | Im only asking 10mins on a private chat. | [01:24] |
| ThickAsThieves | very interested to see how they proceed, assuming you'll share | [01:24] |
| pizzaman1337 | yeah, awesome post. Keep us updated! :D | [01:25] |
| ThickAsThieves | also interested to see how they proceed, knowing you are sharing | [01:25] |
| Dimsler | nie gavarit pa rusku? | [01:25] |
| mircea_popescu | ThickAsThieves i dun imagine there's any proceeding to be had. | [01:25] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: re: sec: lol! | [01:26] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: Can you spare 10mins on pm, or you want me to gtfo like everybody else wants? | [01:26] |
| mircea_popescu | very cheeky attitude, "here's the extrusion process we expect everything to go through, we'll just keep repeating it" | [01:26] |
| mircea_popescu | sorta feels like talking to customer support. | [01:26] |
| Dimsler | mircea_popescu, which post are they talking about | [01:26] |
| mircea_popescu | ughlol you know what a fake dichotomy is ? | [01:26] |
| mircea_popescu | Dimsler latest prolly. | [01:26] |
| Dimsler | nvm | [01:26] |
| Dimsler | got it | [01:26] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: yes, a little bit. | [01:27] |
| ughlol | a false dilemma | [01:27] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol - you should not try so hard for a PM now | [01:27] |
| mircea_popescu | aha. so, take your time, ask whatever it is you need to ask. | [01:27] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol - access to mirceau (I just read the most recent few lines, haven't been reading scrollback) is, as he correctly states, a VERY good opportunity | [01:27] |
| ninjashogun | you should use it for when you have shipped, have a good idea, paying users, and good traction. | [01:27] |
| benkay | tiberius? | [01:27] |
| benkay | is that you tiberius? | [01:28] |
| ughlol | oh | [01:28] |
| ughlol | okay | [01:28] |
| ninjashogun | nobody invests in the idea stage. | [01:28] |
| ughlol | my bad then | [01:28] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: simple question, if i create a prototype for the app that i want to build, would you even consider investing in it? | [01:28] |
| mircea_popescu | ughlol no. | [01:28] |
| mircea_popescu | you don't have the position to promote that particular thing. you need a different idea. | [01:28] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: Is the timestamp on that last email correct? | [01:29] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: a different idea how? | [01:29] |
| ughlol | You want me to completely change the idea? | [01:29] |
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| ughlol | Or modify it a little bit? | [01:29] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40450 @ 0.00088766 = 35.9058 BTC [+] {3} | [01:29] |
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| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo no it is not. fixed now and ima check the whole stack., | [01:29] |
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| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: Thanks. WOnder how long it will take for the SEC position to align with the reality of MPEx as SRO | [01:30] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, I saw your article on ughlol and think it completely misrepresents ughlol's idea and is extremely unfair. As long as it includes no identifying information, it's a simple troll and abuse of your power - which is fine. It will disappear off the Internet and nobody will read it again. However it is in no way accurate based on my conversation with him. | [01:30] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun can you be specific ? | [01:30] |
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| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, what do you mean? http://trilema.com/2014/you-cannot-fix-a-machine-by-just-power-cycling-it-with-no-understanding-of-what-is-going-wrong/ | [01:31] |
| ninjashogun | is the one I'm talking about. | [01:31] |
| mircea_popescu | that much i understand. | [01:31] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo may take another secx. | [01:31] |
| mircea_popescu | oops. | [01:31] |
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| ninjashogun | Based on my impression, the same thing could have been said about Twitter or Facebook. | [01:32] |
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| mircea_popescu | i don't have a very good impression of either. | [01:32] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 20 @ 0.0056864 = 0.1137 BTC [-] {2} | [01:32] |
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| ninjashogun | Facebook could be called: "A myspace based on a radical idea. You can ONLY register if you have a .edu account! They have literally just blown myspace out of the water by getting AT MOST 0.5% as many users, because at most 0.5% - one in one two hundred - people in the world uses an active .edu account." | [01:33] |
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| ninjashogun | "Why limit yourself to 6 billion people when you can limit yourself to FIFTY MILLION?" | [01:33] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: Based on reading the public conversation in this channel it seems the Rape WHistle app came first and today's social network idea is new. | [01:33] |
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| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun i think you perhaps misjudge the quantity of luck involved in facebook becoming facebook. | [01:33] |
| ninjashogun | It was what was on his mind at the time. What you're missing is that it was on his mind due to a pain point (read news about India). | [01:33] |
| Dimsler | ninjashogun, yeah right | [01:34] |
| Dimsler | your scammer pal | [01:34] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, yes, this is the big defense of trolls. That if it does succeed it's luck, if it fails then obviously it's because it was a dumb idea just as shown by the trolls. | [01:34] |
| mircea_popescu | Dimsler why so aggro anyway | [01:34] |
| Dimsler | i dunno | [01:34] |
| Dimsler | lol | [01:34] |
| mircea_popescu | lol | [01:34] |
| Dimsler | i'm not aggro | [01:34] |
| ninjashogun | Dimsler, did you catch the fact that I posted my whole convo (where I first met him) with ughlol? | [01:34] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: The fact of the matter is that you can not recharacterize old text as a misrepresentation of a bunch of new text, yet to be released | [01:34] |
| ninjashogun | ( http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq ) | [01:35] |
| Dimsler | ninjashogun, can you and ughlol panhandle elsewhere? | [01:35] |
| ninjashogun | Dimsler, I haven't asked for anything. | [01:35] |
| ninjashogun | I also consider it a terrible suggestion to ask for funding here, so on that I'm agreed. | [01:36] |
| ninjashogun | I told ughlol as much. | [01:36] |
| mircea_popescu | depends who. | [01:36] |
| ughlol | Yes, you did.. | [01:36] |
| mircea_popescu | ThickAsThieves didn't even ask and ended up with "his" altcoin financed lol | [01:36] |
| mircea_popescu | much to his chagrin | [01:36] |
| ughlol | I was very impressed with mircea_popescu's suggestions last time.. thought I would give it a shot. | [01:36] |
| mircea_popescu | (dja even own any atc tat ?) | [01:36] |
| ninjashogun | However, we do need to keep a few things in mind. Did you know that VC's (private VC's, managing Limited Partners' cash) get a little bit short of the NASDAQ in returns over the 10-year period of their funds? | [01:36] |
| mircea_popescu | so i guess now you can appreciate the luck point. | [01:37] |
| ninjashogun | The net result (the 2 and 20 basis) of VC's working 60-100 hours a week on investment opportunities, proprietary dealflow, networking, term sheets, introductions, everything.... is a return just shy of passive over the counter index investment. | [01:37] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00088768 = 11.6286 BTC [+] {2} | [01:37] |
| benkay | ninjashogun: so why would anyone play a retarded game like that? | [01:37] |
| ninjashogun | benkay because (I heard this from a guy named rmah, active on #startups) because VC's are WAY better salesmen than you or I will ever be. | [01:38] |
| ninjashogun | they sell their funds to their LP's (limited partners) | [01:38] |
| ninjashogun | that's why those people play those "retarded games". | [01:38] |
| benkay | so you want to run the same scam here? | [01:39] |
| ninjashogun | But when Mark Zuckerberg was at Harvard and scamming some guy with a map site out of $2000 that he used to partly build Facebook.... | [01:39] |
| ninjashogun | benkay - no, I don't seek investment here | [01:39] |
| benkay | lottery argument. | [01:39] |
| benkay | fails. | [01:39] |
| ninjashogun | and I also think that ughlol is wrong to do so. | [01:39] |
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| ninjashogun | benkay - the lottery argument is that it's a net loss. But the whole of the PE (private equity) market is a net gain (for all participants). It's an inflating pie. | [01:39] |
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| ughlol | I wanted to interact with mircea_popescu .. | [01:40] |
| ninjashogun | When you buy a lottery ticket you get less than a dollar on each dollar you spend. (on average). But investments aren't the same. | [01:40] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol, you can interact with him here. But I woudn't solicit funding at this stage. | [01:40] |
| benkay | kakobrekla: i think tiberius is back | [01:40] |
| ughlol | I agree. | [01:40] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: you didn't tell me, you said I need to change the idea. Completely? In what way? | [01:40] |
| mircea_popescu | ughlol do you understand the concept of "rent seeking" ? | [01:41] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: quite honestly, no.. | [01:41] |
| Dimsler | well then learn it | [01:41] |
| ughlol | googling it | [01:41] |
| mircea_popescu | yes, well, basically economic activity can be divided in entrepreneurial (which expands the pie) and rent seeking (which redistributes the pie) | [01:41] |
| ninjashogun | benkay- here's a way to think about the 'lottery argument'. Do you think it would be a net gain or a net loss for the economy if we took IBM's market cap -- $192.19B -- converted it to cash, and then funded about $200k into a graduate student's new "company" (about the money Google was funded with). | [01:42] |
| mircea_popescu | your idea is principally of the second type, and as such it requires the usual trappings of rent seeking (ie, power). | [01:42] |
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| ninjashogun | And we did that with not just one graduate student (or pair), but we did it with 10,000 of them - all over the world. Per year. For 100 years. | [01:42] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: I agree.. yes. | [01:42] |
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| ninjashogun | After you do that for 100 years, do you think you produce MORE or LESS net value for the economy than IBM's current value? | [01:42] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun you have your answer ready : vcs do exactly that, and they lag the indexes. | [01:42] |
| benkay | probably less. most grad students are brainwashed rule-followers. | [01:42] |
| mircea_popescu | so no, it'd not be a good idea. | [01:42] |
| ninjashogun | every year 10,000 founders per year seed funded with $200K... for 100 years. | [01:43] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: So I would need to create an economic activity that expands the pie | [01:43] |
| ninjashogun | mirceau_popescu- not really. VC's make VERY few seed-stage investments. mostly series A. | [01:43] |
| ughlol | Is that what you're trying to tell me? | [01:43] |
| mircea_popescu | basically. | [01:43] |
| ughlol | okay | [01:43] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun giving money to people for the reason that they're people never ends well. | [01:44] |
| ninjashogun | but my point is that out of those 10,000 companies per year, most years would have SEVERAL that become billion-dollar companies. | [01:44] |
| BingoBoingo | benkay: Don't forget the part where generally grad students are physically, emotionally, and morally broken... Or Aspies | [01:44] |
| mircea_popescu | africa is chiefly a shithole today because the west has been dilligently observing a progreamme of giving them "free" shit. | [01:44] |
| mircea_popescu | there's nothing more expensive than free. | [01:44] |
| ninjashogun | Hell, YCombinator funds just 43 startups per year, also has seed funding of only $150K, and has already produced two billion-dollar companies (dropbox and airbnb) | [01:44] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: do you have any suggestions on how I may modify the idea to expand the pie instead of redistribute it? | [01:44] |
| ninjashogun | and that's with just 43 startups per year. | [01:44] |
| Dimsler | must support liberia | [01:44] |
| Dimsler | the real africa americans | [01:44] |
| mircea_popescu | ughlol notrly. you're not known well enough for me to do anything like that. | [01:44] |
| Dimsler | you can blame terrorist mandela | [01:44] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, that's an important point | [01:45] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, but they're often aspies who develop importnat proprietary technology. | [01:45] |
| Dimsler | for the ongoings in africa | [01:45] |
| benkay | ninjashogun: the notion that ughlol is founder material falls on its face when he dances like a monkey in here asking "how ams i even make money guys?" | [01:45] |
| mircea_popescu | stick around, learn, make sense, over time you may become useful. | [01:45] |
| benkay | but yeah, learning, working, delivering. | [01:45] |
| benkay | those things matter. | [01:45] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: done. Will do :) | [01:45] |
| ughlol | and benkay :P that was funny. lol. | [01:45] |
| benkay | glad you have a sense of humor | [01:45] |
| benkay | if only ninjashogun were educable | [01:45] |
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| ninjashogun | benkay - as I probably mentioned, ughlol is not "founder material", today, in several senses. He is in India, with a very poor VC network, he is currently a university student who has never run a business, and he does not have a personal network that makes him investable. I don't necessarily suggest investing in him today. | [01:46] |
| benkay | he might learn a thing or two from you | [01:46] |
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| ughlol | he was just standing up for me benkay.. :) | [01:46] |
| benkay | hey guys i'm going to copy whatsapp | [01:46] |
| benkay | can i list on mpex? | [01:46] |
| ughlol | lol | [01:46] |
| * | ughlol slaps benkay with a stinky trout | [01:47] |
| ughlol | :P | [01:47] |
| benkay | it's going to be worth 20B 'cause facebook bought the other one for a lot of money | [01:47] |
| ughlol | LMFAO | [01:47] |
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| ughlol | do i really sound like that? | [01:47] |
| BingoBoingo | benkay: WhatSnatch, the all vag chat network | [01:47] |
| benkay | ur all gonna miss out on this one | [01:47] |
| mircea_popescu | wetsnatch ? | [01:47] |
| benkay | k boarding plaane | [01:47] |
| benkay | later all | [01:47] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol, however notice how many of those questoins are addressed if you juts create a business (with no funding) and start getitng users? Then you are already in some sense an experienced (if first-time)founder, as well as having a real track record of shipping code (sometihng benkay was asking about.) | [01:47] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: 'snatchat.' 'twatter.' | [01:47] |
| ughlol | ninjashogun: I agree. I will get to that immediately. :) | [01:48] |
| ughlol | at least then, Dimsler might think im not just some random scammer | [01:48] |
| mircea_popescu | lol | [01:48] |
| mircea_popescu | snotchat | [01:48] |
| Dimsler | oh shutup | [01:48] |
| Dimsler | you're a random scammer | [01:48] |
| ughlol | they insult, bit at least I can learn something | [01:48] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol it doesn't matter what Dimsler thinks or (more likely) says | [01:49] |
| ughlol | I love you too Dimsler | [01:49] |
| ughlol | true | [01:49] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol, you can't learn much here | [01:49] |
| ninjashogun | you can mostly learn to keep things confidential | [01:49] |
| ughlol | haha | [01:49] |
| ughlol | true, that | [01:49] |
| ninjashogun | For example, notice if instead of your actual idea you had said, you have an idea for a local app based on a new way of connecting people. Then they can't object. They would sound like idiots, because there is no way that EVERY possible local app is a bad idea. | [01:49] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 52 @ 0.0036 = 0.1872 BTC [+] | [01:49] |
| ninjashogun | they don't really have enough information - never give them enough information to act like an idiot. | [01:50] |
| mircea_popescu | every possible local app is a bad idea. | [01:50] |
| mircea_popescu | now what ? | [01:50] |
| ughlol | Hmm, thats true. | [01:50] |
| ughlol | lol mircea_popescu :P | [01:50] |
| ughlol | you just have to argue huh? | [01:50] |
| ninjashogun | now you sound like you're kididng, mirceau :) | [01:50] |
| ughlol | thats what I like about rich people | [01:50] |
| ughlol | they just dont give a fuck! :D | [01:50] |
| ughlol | and thats awesome! | [01:50] |
| mircea_popescu | druggies are the same way. | [01:50] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 183 @ 0.0036 = 0.6588 BTC [+] {2} | [01:50] |
| ughlol | lol | [01:50] |
| mircea_popescu | anyway : there isn't a magical word manipulation thing that makes businesses. | [01:51] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: maybe youre a mix of both? | [01:51] |
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| mircea_popescu | i suspect i'm the only clean one here actually. | [01:51] |
| ughlol | haha | [01:51] |
| ughlol | yeah right | [01:51] |
| only_ | mircea not even alcohol? | [01:51] |
| * | only_ is now known as only | [01:51] |
| mircea_popescu | i drink, sure. but that's a drug now ? | [01:52] |
| mircea_popescu | seems sugar'd have a better shot. | [01:52] |
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| ughlol | rofl | [01:52] |
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| ninjashogun | ughlol, above where you agreed that you should just build it (by yourself, no funding). with a web app it should be possible. thousands of people have done that. | [01:53] |
| ninjashogun | however it is still hard | [01:53] |
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| ninjashogun | for example (this is laugh-worthy) I have just used vagrant to get a PHP server up. I've never used PHP (used Python a bit, as well as C++ and Perl). | [01:54] |
| ughlol | Yes, I'll work hard towards developing a prototype and getting users. | [01:54] |
| ninjashogun | to get from where I am today to an MVP will probably take me a month. | [01:54] |
| ughlol | maybe then mircea_popescu would be interested! :) | [01:54] |
| ninjashogun | it's really hard. | [01:54] |
| ninjashogun | ughlol, doubtful | [01:54] |
| ughlol | lol | [01:54] |
| ninjashogun | however as I mentioned to you there are a TON of sources of interest to you once you have users. | [01:54] |
| ughlol | maybe other investors? | [01:54] |
| ughlol | Yes, true. | [01:54] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun a dubious proposition. look at the recent business insider refinance, | [01:55] |
| mircea_popescu | or look at the sad history of digg | [01:55] |
| ninjashogun | just a few include: angellist, kickstarter and indiegogo, sell gold or points, b2b deals or referral fees, there is even crypto stock if you want to raise online funds. | [01:55] |
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| ughlol | and mircea_popescu, thanks for pointing out that rent-seeking thing.. I think I understand what you mean. :) I'll work on changing the idea and creating a prototype! <3 | [01:55] |
| ughlol | ah well, need to go now guys | [01:55] |
| ninjashogun | what do you mean on - business insider refinance? | [01:55] |
| mircea_popescu | ughlol how old are you anyway ? | [01:55] |
| ughlol | will visit here more often! :D You guys are stuck up, but real fun! :D | [01:55] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: 19 | [01:55] |
| ninjashogun | oh | [01:55] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20657 @ 0.00088369 = 18.2544 BTC [-] {3} | [01:55] |
| ninjashogun | I thought you were about 21 | [01:56] |
| ughlol | I look real old dont I :/ | [01:56] |
| ughlol | damn. | [01:56] |
| ninjashogun | you should definitely ship anything. | [01:56] |
| mircea_popescu | eh, whatever you do it's gonna be good for you. | [01:56] |
| only | much love ughlol, don't give up the good fight | [01:56] |
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| ughlol | thanks only!! :) | [01:56] |
| ughlol | mircea_popescu: <3 ^_^ | [01:56] |
| only | lol | [01:56] |
| ughlol | cya later guys | [01:56] |
| ninjashogun | just remember not to say enough to make your startup more specific than a category, then you can never receive a "no" and will interest people who can work on it or help you with it. | [01:56] |
| Dimsler | oh yeah | [01:57] |
| ninjashogun | if they're not interested you can get a firm no right away without also hearing that you're an idiot. | [01:57] |
| Dimsler | teach him how to be abetter scammer | [01:57] |
| ughlol | Will definitely keep that in mind ninjashogun! Thanks for the introduction here, and sorry that your rep went down. | [01:57] |
| ughlol | Dimsler: yeah yeah, blah. I love you too. Happy? | [01:57] |
| ughlol | Dont get butthurt because I forgot to say I love you. | [01:57] |
| ninjashogun | Dimsler, I think some aspects of recruiting cofounders, investors, and even customers, have something in common with 'scamming'. So is putting an MVP up. | [01:57] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 41 @ 0.00368 = 0.1509 BTC [+] | [01:58] |
| ughlol | cya later everybody! :) | [01:58] |
| ninjashogun | There was a story about an MVP with fake buttons that didn't do anything - they just said "Download as Excel File" for example and see who clikced on it to guage interest. | [01:58] |
| ughlol | bye ninjashogun, mircea_popescu, Dimsler <3, only!! :) | [01:58] |
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| ninjashogun | that's a "scam" because it exposed functionality that was a lie. | [01:58] |
| only | cheers mate | [01:58] |
| ninjashogun | but it helped the startup hone in on what the market wanted. | [01:58] |
| ninjashogun | Likewise, I've talked with MANY people associated with YCombinator-backed startups (the most famous incubator) and worked for one. | [01:59] |
| ninjashogun | Many early employees report that founders are full of "half-lies". | [01:59] |
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| ninjashogun | I agree. The job of a founder is to create a half-lie, and the job of the cofounders and early employees is to add the other half. | [01:59] |
| ninjashogun | + of the investers, and in some cases the customers who are early adopters and willing to put up with buggy-ass #$#@$ | [01:59] |
| ninjashogun | because they believe in the vision. | [02:00] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: re: SEC piece: the use of rsa signing is not unknown among u.s. bureaucrats; | [02:00] |
| asciilifeform | but it is generally limited to DOD desk-flyers, and uses an ms-outlook plugin | [02:00] |
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| asciilifeform | key is kept on a card | [02:00] |
| asciilifeform | read by winblows driver | [02:00] |
| mircea_popescu | oh great. | [02:00] |
| asciilifeform | used to have one myself. | [02:01] |
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| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun what's the problem with being called an idiot iyo ? | [02:01] |
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| asciilifeform | card had mug shot and a serial number (for being taken prisoner, among other things! because contractors can also star in beheading vids.) | [02:02] |
| mircea_popescu | anyway, this vapid "half lie" model, and all the cruddy webapps/mobile apps stuff has very little life left in it, even in the fiat world. | [02:02] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, well the main problem is that you need to reserve your hardest edge for when you need it the most. I've spend very long hours discussing very deep technical points without calling something "idiotic". It can be broken, wrong, unexpected, totally incompatible, etc. Those words are more specific. | [02:02] |
| mircea_popescu | this isn't the fiat world. | [02:02] |
| asciilifeform | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Img-card-topology-front.png | [02:02] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, and more importantly those words allow the problem to be fixed. | [02:03] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, my 'half-lie' model applies to everything that is new and being built. | [02:03] |
| ThickAsThieves | i did end up with some with some ATC, but haven't had the chance to keep up with it. it seems without tender loving care it cannot thrive. | [02:03] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform what they use that as a sort of cardano ? | [02:03] |
| ninjashogun | There are a TON of errors that are always hidden and swept under the rug. | [02:03] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun no , it does not. it has nothing to do with anything other than the particular way the usg implements welfare for a certain subset of the youth population. | [02:04] |
| ninjashogun | The image of a startup is like a duck -calm above the water but paddling like hell underneath. | [02:04] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, sorry what are you talking about not working? | [02:04] |
| mircea_popescu | ThickAsThieves so you're basically like thickoshi... abandoned it ? | [02:04] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun none of the examples you cut out of the real world and pasted onto your model as "eventual upper bound results" have anything to do with the model itself. | [02:05] |
| BingoBoingo | ThickAsThieves: Mabe try loving it again? | [02:05] |
| ThickAsThieves | i'm more likely to " | [02:05] |
| ThickAsThieves | come bacl" | [02:05] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, could you be more specific please! | [02:05] |
| ThickAsThieves | i will | [02:05] |
| ThickAsThieves | probably | [02:05] |
| mircea_popescu | the vc circus as you represent it has not produced facebook, has not produced google, will never produce anything. | [02:05] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: i think it takes hash of something and signs it (with embedded key) then shits it out | [02:05] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, I'm sorry you are factually mistaken. | [02:05] |
| asciilifeform | api is half-documented somewhere | [02:05] |
| mircea_popescu | well then we can end this conversation right here | [02:05] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.59825 = 2.393 BTC [-] {2} | [02:06] |
| asciilifeform | a little like the 'opengpgsmartcard' but more winblowsy | [02:06] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, let's walk through it. If Facebook had been the same in every way, except Mark Zuckerberg was transplanted to be an Oxford student instead (same skills, same drive, same ideas) - what would have happened? | [02:06] |
| ThickAsThieves | if i had access to reliable and worthy crypto developers i'd have probably spat out several companies and things by now | [02:06] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun counterfactuals are good for reddit masturbation. this isn't a good venue for it. | [02:06] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, the ansewr is very simple. he would not have gotten an investment or interest from peter thiel. Or any VC. And nobody outside of 10,000 people would know the word "facebook". | [02:06] |
| ThickAsThieves | problem is i'm not ready to commit to being a "CEO" of anything | [02:07] |
| mircea_popescu | and oyu know this because why | [02:07] |
| ninjashogun | It shows you very clearly the role that VC money plays. | [02:07] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.5901 = 1.7703 BTC [-] {2} | [02:07] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: in case this isn't obvious, it is trivial to patch a chump's ms-outlook to color a mal-signed message the requisite colour. | [02:07] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform wait but isn't that illegal ?! | [02:07] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: it was 'pki' crapola all the way down | [02:07] |
| asciilifeform | haha | [02:07] |
| mircea_popescu | lol. | [02:07] |
| ThickAsThieves | well that's *one* of my problems... | [02:07] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, I've lived in Boston, New York, San Francisco, Paris, Berlin (a bit) as well as some Eastern European cities. I've been interested in startups in all of them, have worked for one in the first dot-com bubble in the 90's. I can tell the difference between different climates and how people behave in them. | [02:07] |
| asciilifeform | thing worked exactly the way alert reader would expect it to. | [02:07] |
| mircea_popescu | you don't understand dood, i read in the guardian that the us caught a bunch of russian spies by displaying a dazzling array of technical superiority. | [02:07] |
| asciilifeform | rusty staples? | [02:08] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun or so you think. | [02:08] |
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| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform remember the hot ukrainian chick ? anna whatever ? | [02:08] |
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| asciilifeform | aha | [02:08] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, let me put it to you like this. If ughlol were farther along, and actually already convinced 10 engineers at his university to be 'cofounders' for equity totalling 5%, 95% to him (which would show GREAT founder skill) and got some traction. HIs company would still probably die, and those 10 people would leave. Because he is in India. | [02:09] |
| mircea_popescu | you know what a non sequitur is ? | [02:09] |
| ninjashogun | Now you repeat hte same thing in Cal Tech and he has a term sheet for $1M at $3M valuation within 3 weeks of launch. | [02:09] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/07/us-swaps-russian-spies-for-russian.html | [02:09] |
| ninjashogun | and his company may OR MAY NOT die. But if it takes off, it's (in part) due to investor sentiment. | [02:09] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform yeah them | [02:10] |
| ninjashogun | To use another example. Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak built what turned out to be $500B company in very large part on the investment climate in the area. | [02:10] |
| ninjashogun | if they were two kids doing hte same thing in just about any part of the world, they would have nothing 30 years later. | [02:10] |
| mircea_popescu | jesus god. | [02:11] |
| mircea_popescu | dude, you know like a thin sliver of the pudding top. | [02:11] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, yes, I know this. | [02:11] |
| ninjashogun | I know it from trying to build a hardware business, and suddenly seeing that none of that sliver is interested. | [02:11] |
| mircea_popescu | well so then stop hopping up and down on it | [02:11] |
| mircea_popescu | it's damned thin | [02:11] |
| asciilifeform | hasty pudding, no less. | [02:12] |
| mircea_popescu | here's a little known anecodte, kinda instructive as to the sort of guy jobs was : | [02:12] |
| asciilifeform | (for many years i thought 'making hasty pudding' meant 'shitting one's pants.') | [02:12] |
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| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, in a lot of ways it's enshrined into the way MANY people think. Some of it is legal (only accredited investors can be targeted; accredited investors display groupthink). Other parts of it are cultural - a lot of people just feel the same way. | [02:12] |
| mircea_popescu | actually look at that, it's on wikipedia. | [02:12] |
| mircea_popescu | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakout_(video_game) | [02:12] |
| ozbot | Breakout (video game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | [02:12] |
| mircea_popescu | grep for bushnell offered | [02:13] |
| ninjashogun | ok | [02:13] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 137 @ 0.00368 = 0.5042 BTC [+] | [02:13] |
| ninjashogun | is this about the money jobs didn't share? | [02:13] |
| mircea_popescu | no, it's about wozniak working his ass straight for 700 bucks, over 4 days. | [02:14] |
| mircea_popescu | that comes down to... 7 dollars an hour. | [02:14] |
| mircea_popescu | now tell me again about "the environment" | [02:14] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, the way I interpret that is that Steve Jobs used the $5000 to start Apple and make his friend a billionaire. | [02:15] |
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| mircea_popescu | woz was never a billionaire. | [02:15] |
| ninjashogun | No? | [02:15] |
| ninjashogun | fine, a $100Millionaire | [02:15] |
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| ninjashogun | More to the point - for our purposes - you would not have lent the young Steve Jobs $5000 yourself, even if he had to repay 10x the amount, 50x the amount, 100x the amount, ore ven 500x the amount (at any point in the future) All of which would have been in his power. | [02:16] |
| ninjashogun | instead, he had to scam his friend for it. Just like Zuckerberg had to scam some map guy out of $2000. | [02:17] |
| asciilifeform | 'had to' ? jean valjean ? | [02:17] |
| ninjashogun | steve jobs could have borrowed $5000 from you and relent 500x as much. But you wouldn't have been interested. That is $2.5M. | [02:17] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, yes, "had to" | [02:18] |
| mircea_popescu | you're on to creating counterfactuals about me now ?! | [02:18] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 69 @ 0.00368799 = 0.2545 BTC [+] {2} | [02:18] |
| mircea_popescu | what's this, risk taking for fun and profit | [02:18] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, fine. Lend me $17,000 now and at some point in my career I will repay you 500x (8.5M). I am 30 now and it has to be in the next 30 years. | [02:19] |
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| mircea_popescu | so you're zuck now ?! | [02:19] |
| ninjashogun | I don't have to be zuck to repay $8.5M. Tens of thousands of people can do it, not just a few hundred billionaires. | [02:20] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: is roughly a pound of flesh, with reasonable blood loss acceptable security? | [02:20] |
| mircea_popescu | i wish us schools went back to teaching logic and shit instead of all this self esteem and marketing bs they do | [02:20] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: get a credit card? | [02:21] |
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| only | lol | [02:21] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: sell motorcycle? | [02:21] |
| asciilifeform | 17k isn't a fortune | [02:21] |
| ninjashogun | I don't htink $8.5M is a fortune. if I had that in cash today I wouldn't sit on it, I would do further startups. | [02:21] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: One problem is mainstreaming, all the US students get exposed to the special ed curriculum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_%28education%29 | [02:21] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: you said you wanted 17k | [02:22] |
| ninjashogun | That doesn't mean I consider it a lot of money. | [02:22] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: if you know how to turn it into 8.5M, then borrow it from whoever | [02:22] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 77 @ 0.003688 = 0.284 BTC [+] | [02:22] |
| asciilifeform | the local mob, if you must | [02:22] |
| mircea_popescu | "We survive on donations averaging about 50 lei. Now is the time we ask. If everyone reading this right now gave 25 lei, our fundraiser would be done within an hour." | [02:22] |
| mircea_popescu | fuckwits | [02:22] |
| mircea_popescu | they can harp about obscure currency nobody heard about, they still won't bow to bitcoin | [02:22] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I don't know how to turn it into $8.5M. If I did I wouldn't be talking about the next 40 years, would I? | [02:22] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, likewise steve jobs did not know how to make a $500B company when he was 25. | [02:23] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27200 @ 0.00088165 = 23.9809 BTC [-] {3} | [02:23] |
| ninjashogun | sorry, next 30 years ;-) | [02:23] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo "Access to a special education classroom, often called a "self-contained classroom or resource room", is valuable to the student with a disability." | [02:23] |
| mircea_popescu | so if it's valuable to X, why should Y pay for it ? | [02:24] |
| mircea_popescu | how great is this, they've invented the free lunch (again) | [02:24] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I am not interested in being involved with the local mob. You seem to consider this a short-term thing, but that's not at all what I stated, is it? | [02:24] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, "then borrow it from whoever". Funny how that goes, isn't it? That loan is how I came into this channel. It doesn't work like that. | [02:25] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: Cause self esteem. Seriously this shit started in the 1980's | [02:25] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: if you live in usa, just about any bank will give you a credit card good for $20K+ | [02:25] |
| asciilifeform | but, you gotta pay it back | [02:25] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform i think you have to have a residence and income | [02:25] |
| asciilifeform | am i mistaken in my understanding that you don't like the 'paying back' part ? | [02:26] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I'm from the USA but at the moment I'm not living there, I've been working on my proprietary hardware startup in a much lower-income country. | [02:26] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, yes, you are quite mistaken in your understanding that I don't like the paying back part. | [02:26] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: then why not go to a bank? | [02:26] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, because I don't have assets? | [02:26] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, because I've been working on my startup for no salary? | [02:26] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, because banks don't consider incorporated companies with assigned intellectual property to be meaningful collateral? | [02:27] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: if you take some employment (even temporarily) bank will lend you $. | [02:27] |
| ninjashogun | I don't have the time to take employment, even temporarily. Two months ago I was invited to give a demo with the working prototype as part of closing a $150K investment. I need to finish it. | [02:28] |
| asciilifeform | i'm not the least bit of 'rockefeller' but i shred & throw out 3-4 unsolicited 'platinum' cards in the snailmail every week or so | [02:28] |
| asciilifeform | they try to shove these things down your throat here | [02:28] |
| ninjashogun | More to the point, at this point taking the employment you talk of would entail abandoning my team here, all of my work and living arrangements (about $150/month burn rate), as well as somehow moving to an expensive city and working full time there. My startup would cease to exist. | [02:28] |
| asciilifeform | these people salivate, they dream, of lending money | [02:28] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: take one of your loyal men and order him to do it, then | [02:29] |
| mircea_popescu | 150/month living arrangements ?! | [02:29] |
| mircea_popescu | that's a very small amount of harem right htere. | [02:29] |
| dub | its funny I dont get unsolicetd cards from my primary bank anymore | [02:30] |
| dub | after my house was burgled and an unopened one was used to defraud them :) | [02:30] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, given my high-risk profile what APR would you (personally) extend me on between $7K-$22.5K (amount I take depends on APR) with no collateral except a registered Delaware C-Corp I'm currently full owner of (100%) going to 90% after an investment clears that I've committed to - the company has intellectual property including a patent that is pending and trademark that has been assigned, as well the equipment I | [02:30] |
| ninjashogun | would spend most of the money on can also become collateral. | [02:30] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.00368808 = 0.5532 BTC [+] {2} | [02:31] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: around here, you only need collateral in the usual sense for a cash loan, but not for 'revolving credit' | [02:31] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, yes, rent in a very small room in a very large shared apartment, is $111 (after some clever negotiation from me based on how infrequently the room could be rented out due to its size). This includes all eelectricity bills, the Internet (that I'm using now) hot water, gas, utilities. | [02:31] |
| asciilifeform | for the latter, you just need a human with some proof of income | [02:31] |
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| mircea_popescu | incredible. | [02:32] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I have no proof of income due to the fact that I have been working without pay for my startups (startup at the moment) | [02:32] |
| ninjashogun | sorry, I meant to write: without pay for my startup (and now startups) - as I started working on the jobs site one after spending more than a month trying to collect the loan I closed | [02:32] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: so you built the mexican factory prior to, rather than after, securing funding. this is not a fatal mistake | [02:32] |
| mircea_popescu | well once your hardwar estart-up succeeds this will be pretty epic material. | [02:32] |
| asciilifeform | just take one of the loyal men and order him to get temporary job and borrow. | [02:32] |
| ninjashogun | I was extended this loan (basically) we did up paperwork for it and then I've been trying to collect it for over 5 weeks without luck. I can't get back in contact wiht the person (after exchanging many forms of contact). so so much after how easy it is to get a loan. | [02:33] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, sorry - I don't get your analogy? | [02:33] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.067 = 0.201 BTC [-] | [02:33] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, oh, you liken my arrangement here to a mexican factory? Well the problem with that is that this is where the development was being done, not production. We ahve a manufacturing partner lined up actually, production will be in China. | [02:34] |
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| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I had to make an unbelievable amount of progress to get offered a seed round on a hardware project that has not yet been completed and has no traction. | [02:34] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: traditionally, one first secures capital and only then gets on the hook for business obligations (employees, factory floor, etc.) | [02:34] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, at this point I need the loan in order to get to the stage of prototype that the investors need to test (as part of their due dilligence also) and see in close to the final form factor. | [02:35] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 37 @ 0.0036944 = 0.1367 BTC [+] {4} | [02:35] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I know how one "traditionally" secures capital, but it is usually against assets such as a house, etc. | [02:35] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, in startups, on the other hand, it's usual to build an MVP using processes that don't scale, and without spending much money, until financing is secured. | [02:36] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: if i were anyone else, i'd swallow this. but i'm doing much the same thing you said you did (hardware startup) but without passing begging hat | [02:36] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 84 @ 0.00373263 = 0.3135 BTC [+] {2} | [02:36] |
| asciilifeform | http://trilema.com/category/snsa/ | [02:36] |
| ozbot | S.NSA pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. | [02:36] |
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| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, did you already discuss a $7M investment, implying a valuaiton of $15M, with a VC who has recently made a $400M exit in another consumer hardware company? | [02:38] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: i know what you'll answer: 'having a day job sucks.' and sure. but then you can pay for hardware, prototype runs, etc. without begging | [02:38] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: nope. and i'm not a baron, duke, anything, no titles of nobility | [02:38] |
| asciilifeform | and implied values thereof | [02:38] |
| ninjashogun | I don't mean to say anything about hte level of ambition you have in your hardware startup but usually a certified lab for developing ours costs $60K, which I am going to do on about $8K in used eBay equipment. | [02:39] |
| ninjashogun | (this is certified 2.4 ghz wireless equipment, this portion) | [02:39] |
| ninjashogun | Note that the wireless portion doesn't exist at all. I don't even have a specan (spectrum analyzer). The only eqiupment I developed is with large arduinos, as well as mockups of what it could look like. | [02:40] |
| asciilifeform | sometimes you just can't play. i, for instance, might like to start a pharma company, but i checked my sofa cushions and there is not $1B to be found therein | [02:40] |
| asciilifeform | (which local government requires for clinical trials) | [02:40] |
| ninjashogun | But you can't show an investor a mockup, and a bundle of wires, and say, imagine if the latter looked like the former! | [02:40] |
| asciilifeform | so i didn't start a pharma co. | [02:40] |
| asciilifeform | imagine that | [02:40] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: try 'gold phoenix ltd.' (china) for prototypes. | [02:41] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform i thought you used to be a duke | [02:41] |
| asciilifeform | very reasonably priced and respected | [02:41] |
| asciilifeform | ahahaha | [02:41] |
| mircea_popescu | how's the esteemed mr yarvin these days ? | [02:41] |
| mircea_popescu | still leaking ? | [02:41] |
| asciilifeform | (for those not in the know: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1352) | [02:41] |
| asciilifeform | seems like it. | [02:41] |
| asciilifeform | like a sieve. | [02:41] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, again, this is why I mention that Steve Jobs (a kid who stole $5000 from his best and only friend to start Apple), Mark Zuckerberg (a guy who scammed a map website guy out of $2000 to start facebook), and Larry Page (a poor grad student who had to give $50B away in equity to get an immigrant to code up his Larry Page Rank), also did not have the means to play.They couldn't play. They did anyway. | [02:41] |
| mircea_popescu | maybe we should have a bet : katecraig wood delivers before yarvin's submarine plane stops leaking. | [02:42] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun you know what the selection fallacy is ? | [02:43] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, fine. AirBNB had to sell Cereal. Yes Cereal. To fund their idea of a C2C ebay of Rentals. | [02:43] |
| mircea_popescu | no listen. | [02:43] |
| mircea_popescu | you only know the names of these dudes because you know the names of these dudes. | [02:43] |
| ninjashogun | https://www.airbnb.com/obamaos | [02:43] |
| ozbot | Obama O's: Hope in every bowl | [02:43] |
| ninjashogun | that's what they sold | [02:43] |
| mircea_popescu | you don't know the names of all the dudes that you don't know the names of. | [02:43] |
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| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, so how would I learn from them? What use are they to me? | [02:44] |
| mircea_popescu | well, they'd be the use to you that they'd give you a useful picture of the world. | [02:44] |
| asciilifeform | day 1: a certain mr. smith wins lottery, $100M, lights $100 with $100 full of cocaine, on tv. day 2: stinking bum knocks on yer door - 'lend me $5.' you: 'why should i lend to a stinking bum?' bum: 'if i'd had $5, i could've won just like smith' | [02:44] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, also, if my investors don't know of them, i can't leverage their background to get an investment, either. | [02:44] |
| mircea_popescu | as it is you're proceeding on a very poor sample | [02:44] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 94 @ 0.00374 = 0.3516 BTC [+] | [02:44] |
| mircea_popescu | generally, the prisons are full of people who perceived they can't afford to play their chosen game and decided to try and play anyway. | [02:45] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, I think your model is a very, very fair one under normal circumstances. (Such as the Efficient Market Hypothesis.) However, I have very deep theoretical proof that your model is mistaken, and that these founders were in fact leveraging the same opportunity inefficiency that I am. | [02:45] |
| mircea_popescu | well, not a bad way to spend a life. | [02:46] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, I don't know about the criminals, generally they're not very smart. But I do know about founders and creating something. | [02:46] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: so what are you wasting time with us for? go rob someone | [02:46] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I was actually responding to the earlier statement (day 1: ...lottery) with my statement about his model being wrong. | [02:46] |
| ninjashogun | The lottery model of startups is simply mistaken and wrong. | [02:46] |
| ninjashogun | You can know this for a fact ,because | [02:47] |
| mircea_popescu | and evil. | [02:47] |
| ninjashogun | I don't know if it's evil or not but it's factually mistaken. | [02:47] |
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| asciilifeform | the lottery model applies when you are (from our point of view) a total wildcard. | [02:47] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: That doesn't mean you can't grab a tire iron and supply a pawn shop with tvs until your enterprize is "funded" | [02:47] |
| mircea_popescu | technically speaking the cards in the deck are a deterministic machine | [02:47] |
| mircea_popescu | so not really any sort of lottery. | [02:47] |
| asciilifeform | it's a lottery to the fellow who doesn't know the rng seed. | [02:48] |
| ninjashogun | You can convince yourself of this fact by being nearly 100% sure that more than $190B in wealth would be created if 10,000 qualified engineering and bioscience etc grad student founders were funded at $200K each for 100 years. It's not a lottery - it's just some unusual percentages. | [02:48] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo i wonder why not more people starting businesses from inside a us prison | [02:48] |
| mircea_popescu | they get free food and net access afaik | [02:48] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, the answer is that they do not have the right socioeconomic perspective. | [02:48] |
| mircea_popescu | what's a socioeconomic perspective | [02:49] |
| asciilifeform | afaik the u.s. socialist party was run from inside of a jail for a while. | [02:49] |
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| asciilifeform | so for certain values of 'business' - it wurks. | [02:49] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: Net access not so much, but... mail and telephones were good enough for IBM | [02:49] |
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| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, it's the same reason (to be honest) that very few Romanians found startups and that you would have had far more trouble finidng cofounders if you didnt' want to do it alone, than you would have in (for example), Berlin, Rome, Brussels, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc..... | [02:49] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo i thought they had interwebs too, no ? | [02:49] |
| ninjashogun | it's a cultural issue. | [02:49] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: Maybe in limited cases, but The US isn't quite Norway or Denmark | [02:50] |
| asciilifeform | i'd venture to guess that there are many romanian startups. just not registered officially. | [02:50] |
| asciilifeform | (with bureaucrats) | [02:50] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, that is part of what I mean | [02:50] |
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| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, can you imagine doing due dilligence on a company that isn't even registered? That means only best friends can invest. Your pool of potential investors is literally limited to 7-20 people, no matter who you are in Romania. (Because that's how many people you trust through highschool.) | [02:51] |
| ninjashogun | I'm generalizing, but only a little bit. | [02:51] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 106 @ 0.00374 = 0.3964 BTC [+] | [02:51] |
| ninjashogun | It's what was different about Palo Alto, for example. | [02:51] |
| mircea_popescu | i dunno, rav for instance is a romanian startup | [02:52] |
| mircea_popescu | so is gecad | [02:52] |
| mircea_popescu | and a bunch of other stuff. | [02:52] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, I don't mean to pick on Romania. For many of my examples I'm really thinking of Hungary, and using it as an analogy. | [02:52] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: did i just fall through time warp? 'mpex' not built yet? | [02:52] |
| mircea_popescu | ungary is a tiny country. | [02:52] |
| ninjashogun | The question isn't whether it was built - but how many Romanian cofounders or investors were on board? | [02:52] |
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| ninjashogun | romania has 21M people in it, Ungary has 10M | [02:53] |
| mircea_popescu | doesn't seem likely you'll ever know that. | [02:53] |
| ninjashogun | so about half the size by population | [02:53] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, well I could just ask you. Not really that interested. | [02:53] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29820 @ 0.00088581 = 26.4149 BTC [+] {2} | [02:53] |
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| mircea_popescu | every country ends up doing something. while hungary owned porn romania owned computers. | [02:54] |
| mircea_popescu | each his own | [02:54] |
| ninjashogun | :) | [02:54] |
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| mircea_popescu | but i know plenty of hungarian folk that really killed it in the 90s | [02:54] |
| ninjashogun | mostly on state privatization though no? | [02:54] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5282 @ 0.00088895 = 4.6954 BTC [+] {2} | [02:54] |
| mircea_popescu | no, on porn. | [02:55] |
| ninjashogun | The ones I know that made a killing did so by immigrating to the United States :) | [02:55] |
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| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, what does your hardware startup do? | [02:55] |
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| ninjashogun | or what are you building? | [02:55] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: a small gizmo, described here: http://trilema.com/snsa-first-product-the-cardano | [02:55] |
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| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: it's on mp's site, he's co-author | [02:56] |
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| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: http://trilema.com/category/snsa/ | [02:56] |
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| ninjashogun | ok | [02:56] |
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| ninjashogun | I'm reading that page | [02:56] |
| mircea_popescu | where did pankkake disappear to anyway | [02:57] |
| ninjashogun | that first paragraph isa joke right? ("what's the idea")? like it's pseudo-lofty, right? | [02:57] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: That's a very good question | [02:57] |
| ninjashogun | anyway it's a good intro :) | [02:58] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun people who don't have to supervise their own humours to please a third party behave differently than the us norm. | [02:58] |
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| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: not joke | [02:58] |
| ninjashogun | It's an intersting introduction. In the end I like it :) | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo i recall he was prepping for some surgery i hope they didn't end up cutting the wrong part. | [02:59] |
| ninjashogun | I just wasn't sure if the tone is somewhat pseudo- or ironic, or it's meant to be read "straight" | [02:59] |
| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: That would be a terrible shame | [02:59] |
| asciilifeform | well, that's how Korolev died | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu | hahaha | [02:59] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform did i actually write that ?! | [02:59] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: the intro thing? one of us did | [03:00] |
| asciilifeform | forget which | [03:00] |
| mircea_popescu | me too | [03:00] |
| asciilifeform | lol | [03:00] |
| mircea_popescu | half why i even keep that blog, if i didn't write the shit up i'd end up forgetting it all. | [03:01] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7136 @ 0.00015003 = 1.0706 BTC [-] {7} | [03:01] |
| asciilifeform | same | [03:01] |
| asciilifeform | used to just piss thing out into emacs orgmode but it helps when people harangue you to remember shit. | [03:01] |
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| ninjashogun | So, I like the idea very much. | [03:02] |
| ninjashogun | That you've put here. | [03:02] |
| mircea_popescu | http://pando.com/2014/02/24/everything-you-know-about-ukraine-is-wrong/ | [03:03] |
| ozbot | Everything you know about Ukraine is wrong | PandoDaily | [03:03] |
| mircea_popescu | this is like remarkably good. | [03:03] |
| mircea_popescu | im starting to like pando | [03:03] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I have a suggestion for your next version. My suggestion is that the air gap with the computer be maintained, by running (a different brick) that is a wireless access point. You can connect to its wifi and use Firefox on localhost to upload and sign or upload and encrypt/decrypt files, which it would then serve back. This requires a computer with access to WIFI. However, I think in general a network stack | [03:05] |
| ninjashogun | is more resilient than a USB stack against, for example, man in the middle attacks (if someone knows that you will use that usb drive they could put a fake USB controller in that MITM attacks it. | [03:05] |
| ninjashogun | this suggestion isn't for the current version, which as a piece of hardware is great. | [03:05] |
| asciilifeform | 'he crowds in Kiev, which can swell up to a million on a good day and are always in the hundreds of thousands, are there out of their own homegrown sense of outrage, not because some State Department bureaucrats willed them there' << author knows, or not, what it costs to feed & shovel shit for 1M-strong crowd ? | [03:05] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: wifi. with ssl, right. troll much ? | [03:06] |
| ninjashogun | it would also save a connect and disconnect. And can be done unobtrusively at a computer, without having to insert a USB stick. | [03:06] |
| ninjashogun | it could also come iwth storage, so that it could be used as a "wireless storage device" (thru the browser). rather than have to plug and unplug a usb stick. | [03:07] |
| asciilifeform | trolling or total ignorance of the engineering realities. which? | [03:07] |
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| mircea_popescu | to further save costs, the entire thing could be done over the web, as an app | [03:07] |
| mircea_popescu | with the dongle as a central server | [03:07] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, let me think about this. | [03:07] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform have an aspirin. | [03:07] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, Why not? assume that the other end is in the person's home. Then the wireless key is truly unusable. | [03:08] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: 'watch this video of Yanukovych’s snipers murdering unarmed protesters and tell me who the real fascists' << lol | [03:08] |
| ninjashogun | mircea_popescu, in fact it could be set to ONLY sign/encrypt/decrypt the next 1 message or 2 messages. So that it can't be stolen off someone's body, as it's in theri home and will only sign the next 2 things. | [03:08] |
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| ninjashogun | I think this would be an interesting application for using one's private key without having it in one's possession. | [03:09] |
| mircea_popescu | definitely. | [03:09] |
| mircea_popescu | could even be an app | [03:09] |
| ninjashogun | :) I undrestand what you're doing with the USB thing. However, I, personally, do not consider USB stacks to be very secure. | [03:09] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform btw, did you vote ? :p | [03:09] |
| mircea_popescu | but srsly, what are your politics on the matter ? | [03:09] |
| asciilifeform | vote? | [03:10] |
| ninjashogun | I think there are a lot of unknowns over USB and it is a frequently underestimated attack vector, with very little security research being done. | [03:10] |
| asciilifeform | 22 yrs. in mordor | [03:10] |
| mircea_popescu | yes, there was a referendum neh ? | [03:10] |
| diametric | ninjashogun: but you do configure wifi secure? lol.. | [03:10] |
| diametric | consider even. | [03:10] |
| ninjashogun | I think wifi security has more attention paid to it, yes. Even when it's broken. Many eyes make security deeper. | [03:10] |
| asciilifeform | me mom & pop voted 'nay' in ua indep. referendum in '91. | [03:10] |
| asciilifeform | then we got on the plane. | [03:11] |
| mircea_popescu | how did that split ? 15/85 ? | [03:11] |
| ninjashogun | But this is not to detract from what you've done, asciilifeform (and mircea_popescu ?) Overall the device is a VERY good step. | [03:11] |
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| ninjashogun | and I like the basic idea of not having your key on another PC. | [03:11] |
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| asciilifeform | 92+ 'yay' | [03:11] |
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| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: Doesn't Wifi violate the intent of an airgap even if there is "air" involved | [03:12] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo - yes, absolutely. | [03:12] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform so what was so bad about independence ? (trying to educate myself) | [03:12] |
| asciilifeform | BingoBoingo: our friend is either trolling - or slept in a cave for years | [03:12] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo - you are right and for this reason I probably shouldn't ahve called it an "air" gap. | [03:12] |
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| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, however, it is absolutely doubtless that wifi protocols get roughly 100x as much security research as the usb protocol does. | [03:13] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: decolonialization is fun for some people, less for others. | [03:13] |
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| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: I mean why not some sort of cable that might only incidentally happen to function as an antenna, for which shielding is possibly. WHy demand an active antenna throwing your bits around? | [03:13] |
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| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, also, in my personal opinion as a security observer, a man in the middle attack with a PC (or laptop) being opened, and a second usb host being inserted between the real USB and the device, whose purpose is to subtlely alter what is being signed, is a very real risk. | [03:14] |
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| asciilifeform | BingoBoingo: there is a version of the apparatus (exists on my desk only, for foreseeable future) with no cables. slide cards in/out. | [03:15] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, since this device as described does NOT retain the signed document in memory, it is therefore signing something without knowing what it is, if it has been transferred between the PC and storage medium. | [03:15] |
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| ninjashogun | I mean it retains no knowledge of what it signed. The person can't go home and check everything they've signed. | [03:15] |
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| asciilifeform | BingoBoingo: but in that version, you lose the card crypto | [03:15] |
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| ninjashogun | What changes with Wifi? Well, you can still have a man in the middle, but it would be much more prohibitive. It would need a complete access point that connects to the device masquarading as the computer, while exposing itself to the computer and hiding the true signal from the computer. It's possible, but more difficult. And in the end the computer can do a complete secure session (in javascript with the browser) compl | [03:17] |
| ninjashogun | etely defeating the MITM. | [03:17] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06894998 = 0.2068 BTC [+] | [03:17] |
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| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: wifi mitm takes all of five minutes to set up. | [03:17] |
| asciilifeform | try it personally | [03:17] |
| asciilifeform | don't take my word for it | [03:17] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: My concern with WiFi is packet capture. | [03:17] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, packet capture is not a concern because you can establish a higher secure channel from Firefox on the computer all the way to the final device. This is possible because hte device can have a known fingerprint. | [03:18] |
| ninjashogun | and it doesn't matter if there are devices in the way. | [03:18] |
| diametric | mircea_popescu: your email exchange with the "SEC" is fantastic. | [03:19] |
| ninjashogun | However, the current version transfers files in the plain over the USB protocol. it is 100% vulnerable to a USB mitm - which could probably be made so small that it almost fits in a usb drive. | [03:19] |
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| dignork | ninjashogun, your Firefox will trust almost any certificate, unless you'd verify it manually | [03:19] |
| mircea_popescu | diametric why so ? | [03:19] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: suggested experiment. take a radio transmitter (a household walkie-talkie will do) and transmit, with a computer sitting nearby. | [03:19] |
| asciilifeform | watch the output with a receiver, see the little fuzz on the wave? | [03:19] |
| asciilifeform | our friends at ft. meade call this 'NONSTOP' | [03:19] |
| asciilifeform | (not to be confused with 'TEMPEST') | [03:20] |
| diametric | mircea_popescu: I enjoy your style of writing, and I wonder if she was prepared for that kind of response. I'm highly interested to see if anything else comes of it | [03:20] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, ....? | [03:20] |
| mircea_popescu | she was utterly unprepared, from what i hear. | [03:20] |
| mircea_popescu | the entire social stack was unprepared. | [03:20] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, okay. | [03:20] |
| asciilifeform | i wish i had the energy to explain here, for stone age man, how a radio works | [03:20] |
| mircea_popescu | apparently somehow they still don't see me coming, it's fascinating. | [03:20] |
| asciilifeform | but essence is: there is an amplifier. it takes a small signal, uses it to modulate a carrier wave | [03:21] |
| ninjashogun | dignork, it doesn't matter who firefox trusts. You can run a complete tunnel using javascript all the way to the final end-point. The whole point of PKI is that it doesn't matter who sniffs packets. | [03:21] |
| BingoBoingo | I wonder how Many interns have been charged with reading trilema nao. | [03:21] |
| mircea_popescu | a javascript pki tunnel | [03:21] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I get your point. | [03:21] |
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| ninjashogun | sure | [03:21] |
| mircea_popescu | BingoBoingo bout a dozen in the bucharest residentura. | [03:22] |
| ninjashogun | it makes sense to me. You can always assume any computer will have javascript, and a wifi. | [03:22] |
| ninjashogun | the wifi connects either a) to your device or b) to a MITM that connects to your device | [03:22] |
| asciilifeform | ;;google NONSTOP TEMPEST | [03:22] |
| gribble | An Introduction to TEMPEST - SANS Institute: |
[03:22] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, your javascript is downloaded by firefox, from forgeable location ... p0wned | [03:22] |
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| ninjashogun | dignork - hmmm.. Well, on Mac and Linux you could do an md5sum or sha1sum on the javascript before you run it. On Windows you can only use a custom certificate, signed by yourself, and know the issuer. | [03:24] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: cardano is optionally usable inside a faraday cage. put that in your pipe & smoke. | [03:24] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894998 = 0.1379 BTC [+] | [03:24] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, this is not to take anything away from cardano - I like it. | [03:24] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I was just suggesting some directions for version 2 or 3. | [03:24] |
| ninjashogun | (my hardware has future versions as well, that we haven't done any work toward) | [03:25] |
| asciilifeform | 'browser'? 'javascript'? 'ssl'? no thanks | [03:25] |
| asciilifeform | i don't have anything against a man who eats turd. but i will eat, and serve my friends, sausage. not turd. | [03:25] |
| asciilifeform | and to me they are not the least bit similar. | [03:25] |
| ninjashogun | Overall I would suggest you consider it due to the amount of security attention that 1) the WIFI stack 2) browser communications, have received. You can leverage that. | [03:25] |
| BingoBoingo | asciilifeform: ninjashogun: remember to ground the faraday cage | [03:25] |
| mircea_popescu | yeah, leverage. | [03:26] |
| mircea_popescu | leveraged security is like pretty cool | [03:26] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 100 @ 0.0160071 = 1.6007 BTC [-] {6} | [03:26] |
| ninjashogun | what, do you not like the word? | [03:26] |
| BingoBoingo | Like leveraged gambling... Until they come for your kneecaps | [03:26] |
| mircea_popescu | i despise the entire thinking process that got you there. | [03:26] |
| ninjashogun | Fine, you can take advantage of that; you can make us of it; you can profit from it; you can be an indirect beneficiary of it; you can depend on it; you can rely on it; you can take it for granted | [03:27] |
| asciilifeform | BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu - be so kind as to take care of our dear guest. i'ma lie down now. | [03:27] |
| ninjashogun | make use of* | [03:27] |
| mircea_popescu | i tihnk it's been enough for a day tbh. | [03:27] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, before you go - | [03:27] |
| ninjashogun | what is that APR? | [03:27] |
| ninjashogun | on the $7-$22.5K? | [03:27] |
| asciilifeform | in gringolandia, 20% mebbe. | [03:28] |
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| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, if I can have up to a 3 year grace period I would accept that with the full $22.5K. | [03:28] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: Have you considered that rather than leveraging a complex behemoth of other people's work which was produced with the potential of malice towards your intended cause, you could just make something simpler. | [03:29] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo - I always consider the simplest hting that could possibly work. | [03:29] |
| BingoBoingo | Wifi and browsers are never the simplest things | [03:29] |
| ninjashogun | I disagree, I think firefox running javascript is one of the simplest things to develop and target 100% of PC's with. Also it would work on some tablets, which have no USB subcomponent at all, but do have copy and paste and wifi connections. | [03:30] |
| BingoBoingo | For all of the "work" on Wifi and browser security neither is particularly secure | [03:30] |
| BingoBoingo | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334572/mozilla-firefox-is-exploited-four-times-at-hps-pwn2own-hacking-contest | [03:31] |
| ozbot | Mozilla Firefox is exploited four times at HP's Pwn2own hacking contest- The Inquirer | [03:31] |
| ninjashogun | on an iPad and iPhone, you can copy the text, connect to the brick's wifi, paste it, copy the result, and then reconnect to your normal wifi. These things don't have a USB stack at all. | [03:31] |
| BingoBoingo | Sure, but your wifi broadcast traves how far from its point of origin? | [03:31] |
| ninjashogun | Again, it doesn't matter if you reimplement PKI over javascript. | [03:32] |
| BingoBoingo | Then your browser can scarcely sandbox javascript? | [03:32] |
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| ninjashogun | Better than it can a usb subsystem, yes. | [03:32] |
| ninjashogun | I don't think packet sniffing is a problem if you tunnel over it. | [03:32] |
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| ninjashogun | Again, none of this is to take away from the design as I've already read about it here. I like it a lot. | [03:33] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, alternatively, you could tunnel over usb | [03:33] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - yes, it would also be a good idea. | [03:33] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - but then they could no longer treat it as a mass-storage device. | [03:33] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: I'm not defending his design. I'm am suggesting your "improvements" are abominable | [03:33] |
| BingoBoingo | Honestly the improvement from USB would probably be RS-232 | [03:34] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo - I learned of this literally 20 minutes ago. My improvements already have something that can at least theoretically work with an iPad and iPhone, which loads of people do their surfing on in the evening, and certainly don't want to keep keys on. | [03:34] |
| ninjashogun | you're on the couch on your iPad, want to sign something an email it. Are you going to keep your key on your iPad? | [03:34] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: Are you familiar with the actual concept of an airgap. | [03:35] |
| ninjashogun | no. | [03:35] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, Yes, I am. I realize this is not an airgap. | [03:35] |
| BingoBoingo | http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ | [03:35] |
| ozbot | How to airgap. A practical guide. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. | [03:35] |
| BingoBoingo | It isn't just about the definition of an airgap, but of the motivations behind it as well that make radio the wrong medium for connecting to such boxes | [03:36] |
| asciilifeform | ok i'm back, because this is just too precious. | [03:36] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 263 @ 0.00379999 = 0.9994 BTC [+] {2} | [03:36] |
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| asciilifeform | BingoBoingo: you'll be happy to learn that the box has rs232 now. (ttl level voltage) | [03:36] |
| BingoBoingo | Sweet! | [03:37] |
| BingoBoingo | I have a reason to get another SE/30 | [03:37] |
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| ninjashogun | on http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ - I would also suggest running several copies of hte same hardware next to each other. If they're all doing something, how is someone going to know which is the one that is of interest. This can even subvert someone physically ocming in and using it in your absence. | [03:38] |
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| asciilifeform | BingoBoingo: still gotta yank cables before rsa rom receives power though. | [03:38] |
| ninjashogun | also the EM radiation might be similar when coming off of several similar computers. | [03:38] |
| BingoBoingo | asciilifeform: That's fine. | [03:38] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: Or just blast the area with cheap crt tv's playing reality shows, sound off. | [03:39] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, by the way don't let the haters take anyting away. All of my suggestoin are at a single layer - and do not in ANY way impact the basic idea you've come up with with mircea_popescu --- which is a VERY good one. I don't really add anything in my suggestoins - it is the same design. You should patent it. | [03:39] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: if you did not know the fact that a radio transmitter radiates not only what you want, but the state of nearby circuit, you know now. | [03:39] |
| asciilifeform | this was a carefully kept secret for decades (if only from american public) so there is no shame in not knowing | [03:40] |
| ninjashogun | the basic thing that you came up with is an escrowed key service embodied in a physical device that does not disclose the key, but uses it and discloses the result. This is a very good invention. | [03:40] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform - how could it be kept from the public? Wouldn't every electrical engineer with a scope see it? | [03:41] |
| asciilifeform | perhaps Semmelweis should have patented doctor washing hands. | [03:41] |
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| BingoBoingo | It's probably not too late for that | [03:42] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+] | [03:42] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, the fact is, if you want to get this into millions of people's hands you will have to invest half a million in research and manufacturing. it could be the only secure device in their whole household (if they run windows.) | [03:43] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform actually dr semmelweis is a major moment in the cultural history of medicine | [03:43] |
| asciilifeform | 'U.S. Patent XXXXXXX: Method of preventing cadaverous poisoning using liquid dihydrogen monoxide.' | [03:43] |
| mircea_popescu | when otherwise nice, smart guys realised that they had literally killed hundreds of women | [03:43] |
| asciilifeform | i mentioned S for a reason. | [03:43] |
| mircea_popescu | a major cultural shock, that. | [03:44] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, if you have to compete with Kingston copying your idea then you are dead in the water. You can't even make it to market. | [03:44] |
| ninjashogun | maybe 20 years is too long for a patent to be valid - then consider donating it after 3 years or 7 years. You can assign it to a protective Open Source patent fund. | [03:44] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: I think the point of the Cardano is it serves people who can not even entirely trust the security of *nix systems | [03:44] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo, I like it. It's also something you can unobtrusively carry around. | [03:45] |
| BingoBoingo | Generally that distrust is the sort that comes from an abundance rather than a dearth of knowledge | [03:45] |
| mircea_popescu | "it made me so miserable that life seemed worthless" and so on | [03:45] |
| asciilifeform | if kingston, ibm, fuck, elektronika, were physically capable of building cardano, you would already have one. | [03:45] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo - in the eventual wifi version, no one would have to know that you even use it. if being surveilled by site, it wouldn't be obvious that it's on your person. (or whether it is). | [03:45] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, that's not true. They don't like to innovate. | [03:46] |
| asciilifeform | there is an engineering term, 'ullage' | [03:46] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, but they do love to use other people's innovations. | [03:46] |
| asciilifeform | do you know it? | [03:46] |
| ninjashogun | me? no. | [03:46] |
| asciilifeform | it's the key ingredient in hydrogen bomb, for instance. | [03:46] |
| asciilifeform | it means, roughly, 'emptiness' | [03:46] |
| asciilifeform | a correctly-shaped absence of something. | [03:46] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, take RasPI, hook up wifi dongle and build one, maybe someone will buy, why arguing? | [03:47] |
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| bitcoinpete | All done mircea_popescu | [03:47] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - you misinterpret my tone if you think I'm arguing. I like the idea of the Cardano very much, I think it's a genuine, useful, good, and non-obvious innovation, and I encourage asciilifeform in building it and getting it to market. | [03:47] |
| bitcoinpete | http://bitcoinpete.com/2014/mircea-popescu-the-sec-wont-let-me-be/ | [03:47] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06894998 = 0.6895 BTC [+] {2} | [03:47] |
| ozbot | Mircea Popescu: “The SEC Won’t Let Me Be.” Or, “I’ve Been Expecting You.” | When Bitcoin | [03:47] |
| asciilifeform | required reading: | [03:48] |
| asciilifeform | http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1299 | [03:48] |
| ozbot | Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice. | [03:48] |
| asciilifeform | if you could take raspi or whatever, remove the mystery meat, add analogue rng - you would not need cardano. | [03:48] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - further I don't have any problem with it in the current form. I think asciilifeform should patent it. I also suggest he work on just one layer of the solution, which is the physical transport layer, and consider bluetooth or wifi. | [03:48] |
| asciilifeform | but if you take raspi, or pc on your desk, or whatnot, and remove the diseased meat, you will have... an empty crate. | [03:48] |
| mircea_popescu | bitcoinpete now the work of submitting to hn and the smokinggun and so on begins :D | [03:48] |
| ninjashogun | dignork, but for the next version. | [03:49] |
| ninjashogun | dignork, after selling thousands of this one :) | [03:49] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: you were told about 'nonstop' and continue to suggest radio transmitters. inattention, or willful ignorance ? | [03:49] |
| asciilifeform | which is it | [03:49] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I told you? You can consider the link totally insecure and still use it....? | [03:50] |
| asciilifeform | radio carries bits from nearby wires. do i have to draw a picture, or what ? | [03:50] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, you missed the point, transmission creates side-channel leak | [03:51] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, the way a tunnelled layer works, is it's OK to give a copy of every bit to an Evesdropper, they still can't make out the plain text. | [03:51] |
| asciilifeform | not merely the wires connected to the radio, carrying payload. nearby. | [03:51] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - are you saying that hte presence of WIFI will leak the CPU state? | [03:51] |
| asciilifeform | am i speaking chinese? what part of this isn't clear | [03:51] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, are you saying that the presence of WIFI will leak the CPU? | [03:51] |
| asciilifeform | yes. | [03:51] |
| mircea_popescu | http://31.media.tumblr.com/e6dc76047ffec4f107c5d9e99de80c14/tumblr_ml1px0eVbl1sn68hmo1_1280.jpg | [03:52] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, the paper that proved that also suggested mitigation strategies... | [03:52] |
| asciilifeform | there is a very simple mitigation strategy. you don't need to burgle ft. meade to learn it. | [03:52] |
| asciilifeform | it's the one we use. | [03:53] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, OK. If you think it is impossible to prevent WIFI from broadcasting the full contents of the CPU and RAM then you would have to design around it to make my suggestion possible, which may be too difficult. | [03:53] |
| bitcoinpete | mircea_popescu cool. just submitted it to smokinggun. what's hn? | [03:55] |
| ninjashogun | hn is hackernews normally | [03:55] |
| mircea_popescu | hos network | [03:55] |
| ninjashogun | oops | [03:55] |
| mircea_popescu | or hacker news | [03:55] |
| BingoBoingo | bitcoinpete: sumbit it to /. | [03:55] |
| mircea_popescu | one or the other | [03:55] |
| bitcoinpete | noted :) | [03:56] |
| ninjashogun | BingoBoingo: I hate to be the one to break it to you. I thought you heard. /. had a stroke and is in a nurinsg home :( | [03:56] |
| ninjashogun | nursing | [03:56] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: your homework is to prove, given K bit rsa key with factors P,Q, there exists N, where N is number of bits you need to learn to factor into P,Q in polynomial time. | [03:56] |
| mircea_popescu | for some reason he has a hardon for slashdot | [03:56] |
| BingoBoingo | I'm old | [03:57] |
| diametric | mircea_popescu: that picture is fantastic, i was literally just having a conversation about redheads with someone moments ago. | [03:57] |
| BingoBoingo | https://www.mtgox.com/ | [03:58] |
| ozbot | MtGox.com | [03:58] |
| BingoBoingo | lol | [03:58] |
| asciilifeform | ninjashogun: your second homework is to play ussr national anthem using a pc, c or cpp program, and a shortwave radio. | [03:58] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I've done that :) | [03:58] |
| * | asciilifeform wanders off to play with pet redhead | [03:58] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.60989987 BTC [+] | [03:59] |
| diametric | Login to see how many imaginary coins you had | [03:59] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I get your point but obviously if you can learn a single bit of a key, you can learn them all. Not one bit should be leaked, ever. | [04:00] |
| mircea_popescu | diametric i love it too hehe | [04:00] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, anything that leaked one bit, could be repeated until you have them all. It only works if you can't learn any of them, except by brute-forcing all of them together. | [04:00] |
| mircea_popescu | http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/ | [04:02] |
| ozbot | The Techtopus: How Silicon Valley’s most celebrated CEOs conspired to drive down 100,000 tech engi | [04:02] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, further, as a practical matter you are not being asked to transmit a real key. You are just transmitting a stupid session key that is used to sign a single document. And if that session key is used in javascript, which is VERY far from the metal (it's a VM, running in interpreter, JS running in a C++ program, firefox, running on Windows) you would have to have insnae precision on learning exact CPU state. | [04:02] |
| mircea_popescu | lmao this reminds me of the original tucker max wage fixing story. | [04:02] |
| ninjashogun | asciilifeform, I don't even mena to "sign" a single document. Just to transmit it. And receive back hte signed version. | [04:02] |
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| ninjashogun | personally anyone who could bruteforce all that, while breaking wireless encyrption and your whole network stack, can see the damn document as far as I'm concerned. and they still wouldn't have my private key. | [04:03] |
| BingoBoingo | ninjashogun: Maybe you are the wrong audience as you aren't concerned very far | [04:04] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+] | [04:06] |
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| dignork | ninjashogun, as simple as possible, wifi transmitter on key-storage device will leak cpu state of key-handling process, game over. | [04:06] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - but above and beyond what the computer leaks anyway by itself? | [04:07] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - because all computers obviously already leak some information through faint EM | [04:07] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, so you keep your key off your computer, to avoid exactly that | [04:08] |
| ninjashogun | dignork - if what you are saying is true than there should be a huge market for a USB wifi stick that is just 8 feet of shielded USB cable with a power conditioner on either end, so that your wifi transmission happens the fuck away from your CPU. | [04:08] |
| ninjashogun | nobody is this paranoid :) | [04:09] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, that's because a) people store useless trash on their systems and don't care/ b) they calculate the risks and live with it | [04:10] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, c) they're idiots | [04:10] |
| ninjashogun | or c) this is tinfoil hat nonsense :) :) | [04:10] |
| ninjashogun | ooops | [04:10] |
| ninjashogun | lol | [04:10] |
| mircea_popescu | you're in a very poor position to evaluate any of these contingencies. | [04:11] |
| ninjashogun | maybe | [04:11] |
| ninjashogun | I tend to go from first principles. | [04:11] |
| mircea_popescu | lol k | [04:11] |
| ninjashogun | I guess I could radically underestimate how much CPU state a wifi transmission can carry away. | [04:11] |
| ninjashogun | and what distance | [04:11] |
| ninjashogun | it's just that a CPU does so much, you know? it's 2 or 4 cores at 4 ghz with megabytes of just CPU cache and then hundreds of megabytes of active ram and programs | [04:12] |
| mircea_popescu | no, you could radically overestimate how much you understand of what's being discussed. | [04:12] |
| ninjashogun | maybe | [04:12] |
| ninjashogun | I'm trying to invest in some 2.4 ghz wireless equipment (spectrum analyzer among other things) and would be the first time I use one. | [04:13] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5200 @ 0.00015 = 0.78 BTC [-] {3} | [04:13] |
| ninjashogun | I'm currently developing a wireless version of my prototype, and it is true that I am still learning it. | [04:13] |
| bitcoinpete | Haven't used HN before, but here's my shot at it. | [04:13] |
| bitcoinpete | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419574 | [04:13] |
| dignork | ninjashogun, let's say it's a complicated attack, and it costs 1M$, which you don't have, then you can safely assume you shouldn't care :) | [04:13] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1675 @ 0.00015 = 0.2513 BTC [-] {3} | [04:14] |
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| ninjashogun | ok | [04:14] |
| ninjashogun | anyway I'd think there's a market for in-between, people (like me) who don't care that much, but would rather not keep a key on a PC | [04:15] |
| mircea_popescu | silent circle ? | [04:15] |
| ninjashogun | or tablet | [04:15] |
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| dignork | ninjashogun, but 1M$ is overestimation, if it costs 10K$, should you care? | [04:16] |
| Duffer1 | ninja but why would i buy yours over the cardano? | [04:18] |
| ThickAsThieves | [04:18] | |
| ninjashogun | Duffer1 - it' snot 'mine'. It's a feature suggestion for the cardano v2 or v3. it's still the cardano. 95% would be the same, including the basic invention that they described. | [04:18] |
| Duffer1 | oh i see | [04:19] |
| ThickAsThieves | i cant believe you guys are still so weak to trolling | [04:19] |
| ThickAsThieves | ninjashogun ir probly furuknap or some other past annoyance | [04:20] |
| ThickAsThieves | is* | [04:20] |
| mircea_popescu | we're old people. | [04:20] |
| BingoBoingo | ThickAsThieves: Prolly Thermos | [04:20] |
| mircea_popescu | old people buy spamvertised dietary supplements and so on | [04:20] |
| ninjashogun | I've introduced myself...? | [04:20] |
| ninjashogun | I'm Robert, as I mentioned. I hadn't talked to you guys before. | [04:20] |
| ninjashogun | I stopped coming here and returned due to ughlol mentioning it. I think you guys are mostly trolling in here (which is fine). | [04:21] |
| mircea_popescu | you're confused. | [04:21] |
| bitcoinpete | ThickAsThieves good call. deleted that one and did a text one instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618 | [04:22] |
| ninjashogun | When I had been coming in here it was following an experience over a similar channel (related to doge) on a loan. As someone here (asciilifeform?) explained, I should have 'no problem' getting a loan of $20K. In fact I did have "no problem" on it, but in the end I couldn't collect it, and had come in here over a few days to see if anyone were interested in the same. | [04:22] |
| Duffer1 | ah, i have indeed heard of people drowning fighting their rescuers | [04:22] |
| ThickAsThieves | thats broke too pete | [04:22] |
| ninjashogun | on it->with it | [04:22] |
| mircea_popescu | ninjashogun anyway, you talk too much. | [04:23] |
| ninjashogun | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618 is showing as dead for me, bitcoinpete | [04:23] |
| mircea_popescu | ideally you want a 1k to 1 read:written lines | [04:23] |
| ThickAsThieves | ughlol and shogun made it easy to be dismissed, they started every conversation with their hands out | [04:23] |
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| blackwhite | evening gents | [04:23] |
| mircea_popescu | so now stfu for a few months and spend hours reading the logs. | [04:23] |
| ThickAsThieves | even after being given links to educate themselves | [04:23] |
| ninjashogun | ThickAsThieves, I read your links. I didn't start any more conversations though. | [04:24] |
| ninjashogun!*@* | added to ignore list. | [04:24] |
| ThickAsThieves | even after being made an example | [04:24] |
| mircea_popescu | mebbe by autumn i feel like clearing my ignore list again or something. | [04:24] |
| thestringpuller | ;;seen nubbins` | [04:25] |
| gribble | nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: |
[04:25] |
| ThickAsThieves | ;;seen pankkake | [04:26] |
| gribble | pankkake was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 2 seconds ago:
|
[04:26] |
| ThickAsThieves | musta got rich on ATC and quit the game... | [04:27] |
| mod6 | ^^^ | [04:27] |
| mircea_popescu | he's now atc rich | [04:28] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.052 = 0.26 BTC [+] | [04:28] |
| BingoBoingo | ThickAsThieves: Maybe he's eyebrow deep in pussy http://headfucking.net/headfucking.mpg | [04:28] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.0521 = 0.1563 BTC [+] | [04:29] |
| cazalla | BingoBongo: looks like heisenberg | [04:30] |
| Duffer1 | oh lawd | [04:30] |
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| BingoBoingo | cazalla: It is from his site | [04:31] |
| mircea_popescu | "Two U.S. Air Force commanders in the 422nd Air Base Group at RAF Croughton have been relieved over a loss of confidence in their abilities." | [04:31] |
| mircea_popescu | one wonders what that'd be. | [04:31] |
| ThickAsThieves | they were better at receiving head than giving it | [04:32] |
| mircea_popescu | may have something to do with all the drones the us lost in the ukraine. | [04:33] |
| ThickAsThieves | do you think a scientist stating evolution is a fact is arrogant? | [04:33] |
| mircea_popescu | turns out they are kinda useless in actual military operations. | [04:33] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0038 = 0.38 BTC [+] | [04:38] |
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| BingoBoingo | mircea_popescu: The problem with drones is it is way to tempting to stick them in places where they don't belong. | [04:38] |
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| mircea_popescu | i guess people in the us are so starstruck with "technology" they forget they're just little radio planes. | [04:39] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.6098974 = 1.2198 BTC [-] {2} | [04:39] |
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| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: they can sack them, they can shoot them, a kid with $100 of kit can still take the next toy plane home. | [04:42] |
| mircea_popescu | kinda the problem, yes. | [04:42] |
| asciilifeform | i haven't the link, unfortunately, but the story goes: | [04:42] |
| mircea_popescu | the sackings will continue until the dollar improves | [04:42] |
| asciilifeform | that these buggers were originally supposed to use the rsa-signed gps | [04:42] |
| mircea_popescu | btw, what happened ot your sleep | [04:42] |
| asciilifeform | what sleep. | [04:42] |
| mircea_popescu | it's like sex but without moving. | [04:43] |
| asciilifeform | the $ that was supposed to buy the golden toilets (signed gps rx-ers) walked away. | [04:43] |
| asciilifeform | then they fitted consumer gps rx. | [04:43] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 28 @ 0.05265349 = 1.4743 BTC [+] {4} | [04:43] |
| mircea_popescu | yeah. | [04:44] |
| asciilifeform | and, until recently, 'predator' video backhaul was... plaintext. | [04:44] |
| dignork | asciilifeform, do you mean the story with fake gps transmitters, which diverted drone? | [04:44] |
| asciilifeform | for a similar reason. | [04:44] |
| asciilifeform | dignork: it. | [04:44] |
| asciilifeform | there are now several such stories. | [04:44] |
| asciilifeform | probably more than i personally know of. | [04:45] |
| mircea_popescu | the word around the backchannels is that the usaf gets back about 2/3 of the drones it sends out | [04:45] |
| asciilifeform | (i'm not a model plane driver for a living, i only know the ones that every idiot knows now.) | [04:45] |
| mircea_popescu | and if this keeps up for another 3-4 years the rest of the world will own more drones than the usg. | [04:45] |
| dignork | asciilifeform, i loled about this story with my friend who builds them for non-US army, and she said that it won't work with their drones, cz they'll fallback into gps-less mode, once there will be delta between compass/altimeter and gps readings | [04:46] |
| asciilifeform | in the '80s, there was quite a bit of $ spent on navigation using optical terrain tracking. | [04:47] |
| asciilifeform | no idea if this survived herr reagan or not. | [04:47] |
| asciilifeform | judging by the use of 'gps' in 'predator', my guess is 'not.' | [04:47] |
| mircea_popescu | yeah contour nav is still used. | [04:48] |
| mircea_popescu | but on large icmb type of things. tehy've not really fittedf it to the 10lb shits yet | [04:48] |
| dignork | asciilifeform, US considers shutting off gps in some cases, so pbbly their drones can work gps-less too. | [04:48] |
| asciilifeform | dignork: this requires fitting receivers for the u.s. proprietary (crypted) gps to all hardware | [04:49] |
| asciilifeform | as it is, they famously lack enough even to supply infantry | [04:49] |
| asciilifeform | because they're $10k each. | [04:49] |
| asciilifeform | (why? ask the folks who make them, not me) | [04:49] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 277 @ 0.00380202 = 1.0532 BTC [+] {3} | [04:49] |
| mircea_popescu | and they still suck. | [04:49] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: one could probably get within 1% of 'gps' by using camera and images mooched from a crawl of 'google earth' | [04:50] |
| asciilifeform | at least over land. | [04:50] |
| mircea_popescu | a lot of their spec is edge cases tho. | [04:50] |
| mircea_popescu | "you need to hit whether there's been a fire or not" | [04:50] |
| asciilifeform | you only need terrain tracking, etc. to correct for accumulated error in inertial (gyro) nav | [04:50] |
| mircea_popescu | many countless ways to throw camnav for a loop, including lulzy things like silly strings | [04:51] |
| asciilifeform | the latter can be had for $5 (it's in every ipnohe etc) | [04:51] |
| asciilifeform | 3-axis 'mems' gyro | [04:51] |
| mircea_popescu | nav-ready gyro is expensive. | [04:51] |
| asciilifeform | one that can be used alone ('Brandy Snifter gyro' or mechanical) is costly | [04:51] |
| mircea_popescu | mech is still the golden standard. | [04:52] |
| asciilifeform | solid-state (dollar store 3-axis chip) is adequate if you can occasionally correct. | [04:52] |
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| mircea_popescu | i'/d suggest you try this theory out, but instead just lie down D: | [04:52] |
| asciilifeform | other thing | [04:52] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 220 @ 0.00381 = 0.8382 BTC [+] | [04:52] |
| asciilifeform | you don't need elaborate navigation if your target helpfully shouts radio | [04:53] |
| asciilifeform | that you can then triangulate. | [04:53] |
| asciilifeform | (phased array using squadron flying in a triangle 1km on each side, say) | [04:53] |
| * | asciilifeform goes back to play with pet | [04:54] |
| dignork | asciilifeform, i tried 3-axis chip, it had a huge margin of error on a toy q-copter :( | [04:54] |
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| mircea_popescu | http://pando.com/2014/03/17/warren-buffett-says-he-wants-to-pay-more-tax-then-structures-a-deal-to-ensure-he-does-the-exact-opposite/ | [05:03] |
| ozbot | Warren Buffett says he wants to pay more tax (then structures a deal to ensure he does the exact opp | [05:03] |
| BingoBoingo | WHat's that thing you say "If you can, you must" | [05:04] |
| mircea_popescu | something like that. | [05:05] |
| mircea_popescu | decent write-up on the topic tho | [05:05] |
| mircea_popescu | this pando stuff is like a breath of fresh air, it almost reads like press from before digital ruined it all. | [05:05] |
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| mircea_popescu | "OP, I know cryptostocks makes it seem as though starting your very own security is a sort of past time accessible to anyone who'd like to try, sort of like adopting a pet fish. This has nothing to do with bitcoin securities in fact and everything to do with play-pretend exchanges exploiting those who'd like to try but aren't ready for one reason or another." | [05:13] |
| mircea_popescu | i gotta hire this woman. | [05:13] |
| Duffer1 | is she not already on payroll? | [05:14] |
| mircea_popescu | o hey. | [05:14] |
| mircea_popescu | time machine ftw. | [05:15] |
| Duffer1 | oh ^.^ | [05:15] |
| mircea_popescu | lol | [05:15] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894978 = 0.1379 BTC [-] | [05:16] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00382 = 0.382 BTC [+] | [05:17] |
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| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46814 @ 0.00089084 = 41.7038 BTC [+] {2} | [05:23] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894986 = 0.1379 BTC [+] | [05:30] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.0059705 = 0.2985 BTC [-] {3} | [05:33] |
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| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30497 @ 0.00089043 = 27.1554 BTC [-] | [05:42] |
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| benderp | so i dunno what happened but i pooped out a 3kword monster | [05:43] |
| benderp | it's kinda rough as these airplane pieces can be | [05:44] |
| benderp | uhh wide ranging too | [05:44] |
| benderp | http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/03/17_the-sec-doth-breach-itself-upon-the-rocks-of-mpex-and-popescu-himself.html | [05:44] |
| ozbot | The SEC doth breach itself upon the rocks of MPEx, and Popescu himself | [05:44] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 87 @ 0.003849 = 0.3349 BTC [+] | [05:45] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 173 @ 0.00385 = 0.6661 BTC [+] | [05:48] |
| mircea_popescu | how was your flight | [05:52] |
| mircea_popescu | meanwhile back at the ranch, bitbet invented a whole new kind of hell. | [05:53] |
| mircea_popescu | http://bitbet.us/bet/786/bitcoin-to-surpass-berkshire-as-an-investment/#b94 | [05:53] |
| ozbot | BitBet - Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment | [05:53] |
| mircea_popescu | and bc.info is still down. | [05:53] |
| bitcoinpete | benderp: fantastic article. quite enjoyed "engaging in nefarious activity to palp the testicular fortitude of the people who matter and actually set policy in Bitcoin" | [05:59] |
| mircea_popescu | ;;later tell benkay "the secret discovery of these techniques was for the Tyrant merely a happy accident" << it was in fact. rsa was invented by some brit guy, kept under lock and key unused for 4 decades. | [06:01] |
| gribble | The operation succeeded. | [06:01] |
| bitcoinpete | mircea_popescu: guesses on what's up at bc? | [06:02] |
| * | mius has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | [06:02] |
| mircea_popescu | they probably lost a hard drive, didn't have a proper array and can't restart till they fsck | [06:02] |
| Duffer1 | http://www.extremetech.com/computing/178529-this-is-what-the-death-of-moores-law-looks-like-euv-paused-indefinitely-450mm-wafers-halted-and-no-path-beyond-14nm | [06:03] |
| ozbot | This is what the death of Moore’s law looks like: EUV rollout slowed, 450mm wafers halted, and an | [06:03] |
| mircea_popescu | random guess. their pr is mtgox-level atrocious, which is kinda sad after all these trilema articles on the topic | [06:03] |
| LordPutin | thisisagood read atm even goatgetsmentioned - http://www.scribd.com/doc/210845161/SEC-vs-pirateat40-1 | [06:04] |
| bitcoinpete | indeed | [06:04] |
| mircea_popescu | Duffer1 this is kinda endemic, each nm size had it | [06:04] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/ | [06:04] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: considerably more interesting | [06:05] |
| bitcoinpete | i'm off for the eve, cheers | [06:05] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00088815 = 7.9934 BTC [-] | [06:05] |
| mircea_popescu | i linked that earlier! not so bad read | [06:05] |
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| asciilifeform | if i recall you had the 'wrong' piece | [06:05] |
| asciilifeform | vs. 'wrong-er' | [06:05] |
| mircea_popescu | o i did ? | [06:05] |
| mircea_popescu | oh i c | [06:05] |
| mircea_popescu | skimming ftw. | [06:05] |
| LordPutin | ahh ok | [06:06] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 462 @ 0.00385 = 1.7787 BTC [+] | [06:07] |
| asciilifeform | this is my very first encounter with an english-speaking anybody who read Limonov. | [06:07] |
| asciilifeform | 'Limonov and his friends consider themselves Russians, because to them, Ukrainian is a “village tongue,” a peasant language, and its most vivid expressions are of the endless hatred that filled every one of the many tribes on the grasslands, like this one: “Into Muscovite, Polack, and Jew/Take your knife and stick it through.”' | [06:08] |
| LordPutin | despoisiton is pretty fun to read | [06:08] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform so what's your take on the holodomor ? | [06:10] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 57 @ 0.003872 = 0.2207 BTC [+] | [06:12] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: j. c. scott's 'art of not being governed' (which is entirely about asia, incidentally, and mentions this not at all) is the best guide; | [06:12] |
| asciilifeform | what should fuhrer do when his kingdom breaks into cities (starving) and countryside, which needs nothing from the cities | [06:13] |
| asciilifeform | in light of an urgent need to industrialize and resist conquest | [06:13] |
| mircea_popescu | i can readily see how something like that would create plenty of national identity. | [06:14] |
| mircea_popescu | "we are the people you tried to kill, and we will bury you" | [06:14] |
| asciilifeform | that's russia in 1 sentence. | [06:14] |
| asciilifeform | since 14th c. or so. | [06:14] |
| mircea_popescu | anyway, good point in pando article, re the "party line". it suffers from spina bifida, and will crumble into dust | [06:15] |
| asciilifeform | granted, being on receiving end isn't terribly fun. | [06:15] |
| mircea_popescu | (one of the best predictors of who will be defeated in any conflict is see whose messages don't manage to coallesce, displaying instead dualities) | [06:15] |
| asciilifeform | related: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-madness-of-president-putin.html | [06:16] |
| chetty | Is there a bitbet yet on when it formally becomes war? | [06:16] |
| asciilifeform | 'Western meds aren't working any more—on itself or anyone else.' | [06:16] |
| mircea_popescu | chetty i doubt anyone has the nazi esprit de corps to actually declare wars anymore. | [06:17] |
| asciilifeform | the 'international komoonity' doesn't war. it drive-by shoots. | [06:17] |
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| chetty | Putin is set to respond to Obama's sanctions of Russian officials with his own list. Several U.S. Senators and officials will be banned from visiting Russia, including Sen. Dick Durbin. | [06:18] |
| mircea_popescu | im curious how much us t's is russia holding in offshore accounts | [06:19] |
| * | CheckDavid has quit () | [06:19] |
| mircea_popescu | because if they do hold enough they're going to trigger a contest with the chinese as to who dumps them first | [06:20] |
| mircea_popescu | and that, for the first time since 2008, is actually a clear path tho the end. | [06:20] |
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| chetty | its like school yard fights ... oh yeah, your mother wears combat boots | [06:20] |
| mircea_popescu | "The two versions of Russia—McCain’s “gas station masquerading as a country” and Lake’s fearsome conqueror—both start from the same bitter knowledge, even if Senator McCain and Mr. Lake will never admit that fact in public. It’s a simple one: Russia will take Crimea, won’t pay a big price for it, and there’s not a thing anyone can do about it." | [06:21] |
| mircea_popescu | myeah. | [06:21] |
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| asciilifeform | 'Russia promised to respond “symmetrically.” In its arsenal is: popping the huge financial bubble and causing a resumption of the financial collapse of 2008 by any number of means, from requiring gold instead of fiat currency as payment for oil and gas, to dumping US dollar reserves (in concert with China), to putting the EU on a fast track to economic collapse by giving the natural gas valve a slight clock | [06:23] |
| asciilifeform | wise twist...' | [06:23] |
| mircea_popescu | nah, they're never stoppin gthe gas. putin is much too smart for that. | [06:24] |
| mircea_popescu | they may add a say 30% surcharge for any us exports just for fun tho. | [06:24] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: argentina! clever fellow, you are. | [06:24] |
| asciilifeform | mircea_popescu: 'wisdom is hopping on the train a day before everybody else' (leo szilard) | [06:24] |
| mircea_popescu | asciilifeform i just get my news earlier than everyone else that's all. | [06:24] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00387264 = 0.3873 BTC [+] {2} | [06:25] |
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| mircea_popescu | "Russia finished the final stage of the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) Pipeline in 2013." | [06:26] |
| mircea_popescu | this is actually a very good point. putin also gets his news early. | [06:26] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1181 @ 0.00088407 = 1.0441 BTC [-] | [06:28] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 300 @ 0.0038741 = 1.1622 BTC [+] {2} | [06:28] |
| mircea_popescu | Eto myf aahaha | [06:28] |
| mircea_popescu | Это миф he means. | [06:28] |
| benkay | ah so then i guess not really a product of the usg then, mircea_popescu | [06:31] |
| benkay | anyways, flight was great - *my* pet redhead is making steaks, and then we're off to the wine bar to seduce the flight attendant | [06:31] |
| mircea_popescu | ;;google clifford cocks | [06:32] |
| benkay | (i give it a 1/10 - fukken blasted from a weekend with family; barely capable of satisfying the one i have) | [06:32] |
| gribble | Clifford Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: |
[06:32] |
| assbot | [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31400 @ 0.00088766 = 27.8725 BTC [+] {3} | [06:32] |
| mircea_popescu | the disadvantage of being a loyal servant of a small yet arrogant country. | [06:32] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.003874 = 0.7748 BTC [-] | [06:35] |
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| benkay | oh also saint paddy's day so doucheparade is out | [06:36] |
| benkay | no flight attendants for meee :( | [06:36] |
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| mircea_popescu | benkay ironically, i would say the average paid per webpage today far exceeds the height of the dot com bubble. | [06:43] |
| benkay | ;;later tell bitcoinpete nice to see someone reading closely. | [06:43] |
| gribble | The operation succeeded. | [06:43] |
| mircea_popescu | what did the obamacare webjournal cost again ? | [06:43] |
| benkay | whaaaat really? | [06:43] |
| mircea_popescu | just think. now the govt is buying. | [06:43] |
| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 0.60988391 = 4.2692 BTC [-] {3} | [06:43] |
| benkay | we do shit for 50-100k that woulda run in the millions a decade ago. | [06:43] |
| mircea_popescu | but most of the shit we do today costs 5mn, and would have cost 500 to make 15 years ago. | [06:44] |
| benkay | ;;later tell bitcoinpete let me know when you find the joke about mircea_popescu's cock | [06:44] |
| gribble | The operation succeeded. | [06:44] |
| mircea_popescu | take the pando chick (who apparently is actually the tard that did that horror interview with zuckerberg) : | [06:44] |
| benkay | what sorts of things are you talking about now? | [06:44] |
| mircea_popescu | http://pando.com/about/ | [06:44] |
| ozbot | Why I Started PandoDaily | PandoDaily | [06:44] |
| mircea_popescu | I’ve paid a WordPress designer named Sara Cannon $8,000 to build this site. | [06:45] |
| benkay | i'm thinking more along the lines of 2fa implementations | [06:46] |
| benkay | which coulda been did for nothing with gpg | [06:46] |
| mircea_popescu | 8k for a wp "design". you hear me ? | [06:46] |
| mircea_popescu | and this is a start-up, by some journo chick which supposedly knows what time it is. | [06:47] |
| chetty | well given the million for the Ocare site, sounds cheap :P | [06:47] |
| chetty | millions* | [06:47] |
| mircea_popescu | if you average it all out... it costs more today than it did in 2002. | [06:47] |
| benkay | the design stuff? | [06:48] |
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| mircea_popescu | per site | [06:48] |
| benkay | implying it could be had for less and that honey was ripped off? | [06:48] |
| mircea_popescu | as a business concept. | [06:48] |
| chetty | and somehow they all look the same .. | [06:48] |
| mircea_popescu | also, you ever heard the word panopticon before ? | [06:49] |
| chetty | its where we live, the perfect prison | [06:49] |
| benkay | i have! | [06:50] |
| benkay | (i was briefly educated by people) | [06:50] |
| mircea_popescu | aok | [06:50] |
| benkay | can't say as much stuck, and i missed out on the apparently crucial canings... | [06:52] |
| benkay | but yeah panopticon is the thing lurking in that post | [06:52] |
| benkay | http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-myth-of-the-non-technical-startup-employee | [06:52] |
| ozbot | The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee, by Zoelle Egner | Model View Culture | [06:52] |
| benkay | i always figured the ops people were interchangeable by virtue of their labor being by and large totally fungible | [06:53] |
| benkay | the ones whose labor wasn't, weren't. granted those are "controllers" and what have you, not "office managers" or "directors of employee happiness". | [06:54] |
| mircea_popescu | a good office manager can be worth a lot | [06:54] |
| mircea_popescu | it really all depends | [06:54] |
| benkay | hm yeah | [06:55] |
| benkay | trying to figure out the knobs on the "how to get coffee made for me and a whole bunch of other shit done too for not a terrific amount of money" | [06:56] |
| mircea_popescu | they're not borrowing at 0 | [06:56] |
| mircea_popescu | they're borrowing at 0.25 | [06:56] |
| benkay | a ty | [06:57] |
| benkay | pretty close, tho | [06:57] |
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| mircea_popescu | mhm. | [06:58] |
| benkay | baaaasically zero compared to the btc rate | [06:58] |
| benkay | which, hey | [06:58] |
| benkay | what is the borrowing rate these days? | [06:58] |
| mircea_popescu | For one, nobody knows how many dollars exist in the world, and furthermore one can never trust the government to not simply double the number of dollars in circulation, thereby halving the value of your savings (provided you were stupid enough to actually keep them in cash). | [06:59] |
| mircea_popescu | that's only half the story. | [06:59] |
| mircea_popescu | "thereby halving the value of cash savings, and piling a ton of taxeable "capital gains" on your non cash savings" | [06:59] |
| benkay | oh ho | [06:59] |
| mircea_popescu | if i own a sheep worth 10 dollars today, and the fed prints another 20 trillion dollars | [06:59] |
| benkay | oh god | [06:59] |
| mircea_popescu | i will have then owned a sheep worth 10 dollars + 10 mnore dolars in unrealised gains. | [06:59] |
| benkay | oh i get it | [07:00] |
| mircea_popescu | and that second part is really the big part. | [07:01] |
| cazalla | i thought pando was backed by that techcrunch guy | [07:05] |
| benkay | arrington? | [07:05] |
| cazalla | yeah | [07:05] |
| mircea_popescu | nah, just some chick he maybe shagged | [07:05] |
| benkay | his name's on the investors list is it not? | [07:05] |
| mircea_popescu | (under his aol contract he can't possibly start a pando) | [07:05] |
| mircea_popescu | sure, | [07:05] |
| mircea_popescu | read through the lines here. | [07:06] |
| cazalla | stumping up 8k for the design might be a cover for that | [07:06] |
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| mircea_popescu | benkay http://trilema.com/2014/georg-ritter-von-flondor-and-what-his-unhappy-life-can-teach-us/ | [07:11] |
| mircea_popescu | this being written as a sort of pulp fiction-esque prequel of today's lineup. | [07:11] |
| mircea_popescu | that and of course, http://trilema.com/2014/the-letter-third/ too. | [07:11] |
| benkay | i'm sorry, i do not understand. | [07:13] |
| mircea_popescu | i ain't spoiling it for you. | [07:14] |
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| assbot | [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 903 @ 0.00049 = 0.4425 BTC [-] {2} | [07:22] |
| benkay | there's more in the queue for today? | [07:26] |
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| mircea_popescu | a, no. | [07:30] |
| mircea_popescu | im off to bed. | [07:30] |
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Category: Logs
