Forum logs for 17 Feb 2019
| mircea_popescu: | imo franco very much like maduro. i dunno if you've looked at dood much, he's 100% ranchero guy, would be way the fuck happier raising cattle, maybe at the most driving a truck. but he's stuck with these idiots. | [00:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | ~same deal with franco. | [00:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform how are you with osha btw :D | [00:27] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s osha and vandal | [00:43] |
| a111: | 0 results for "osha and vandal", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=osha%20and%20vandal | [00:43] |
| asciilifeform: | hrm. | [00:43] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s hard hat mack | [00:43] |
| a111: | 3 results for "hard hat mack", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=hard%20hat%20mack | [00:43] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ see also. | [00:44] |
| asciilifeform: | http://trilema.com/forum-logs-for-19-feb-2014#1099255 << | [00:45] |
| a111: | Logged on 2014-02-19 15:51 asciilifeform: brother and i played this on our 'Iskra' (xt clone) and combed three different dictionaries to learn what the fuck an osha is | [00:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | lol | [00:47] |
| feedbot: | http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/ << bvt's backtrace -- GNAT Zero Cost Exceptions and Asynchronous Task Aborting. Part 2. | [07:27] |
| diana_coman: | bvt, interesting is that gcc5-specific though? | [07:51] |
| bvt: | i don't think it gcc5-specific, the patch against this problem that i've seen was written for gcc 4.8 | [07:59] |
| diana_coman: | hmm, now one wonders if the patch made it into gcc 4.9 or not | [08:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | meanwhile in spamlulz, the great ukrainian clinic of surogate medicine drama : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/BrTQl/?raw=true | [08:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | (as reported by diddled buyers of biotexcom organization of reproductive medicine) | [08:17] |
| bvt: | diana_coman: it did not, as it was a clear hack to just make things work http://bvt-trace.net/src/gthr-disable-weak.diff | [08:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt "Before going into the detail" << that "detail" never takes an article, either definite or indefinite, for some reason to do with english being weird. | [08:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt --eh-frame-hdr << how much less probable does it make it ? (ie, there's a bunch of old reported stash smashing bugs in gcc, such http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897096 as from yest), and --eh-frame-hdr protects the stack from being thus corrupted. | [08:24] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-16 00:31 mircea_popescu: http://archive.is/x8D5k << apparently they STILL have the issue in gcc 8. | [08:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, if it makes it 100% less probable, "disappear entirely", then it's maybe the same thing ? and if not... could actually be two separate issues ? | [08:24] |
| bvt: | it goes from crashing once in 3-5 runs to crashing once in approx 1000 however i've also seen deadlocks, which may be worse stuff to deal with than an honest crash. | [08:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | hmm. | [08:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | there are in fact two different issues there, aren't there. | [08:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | incidentally, the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897098 seems an exact from-field description of the higher level http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/#selection-139.335-139.443 problem, doesn't it. | [08:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-16 00:32 mircea_popescu: "The issue is that the code generated for __builtin_longjmp reads a value for x29 (the frame pointer) from the jmp_buf, but the code generated for __builtin_setjmp doesn't actually write x29 to the jmp_buf, leading to corruption of x29 when a longjmp occurs. | [08:30] |
| bvt: | maybe there are two similar issues that are both 'cured' by switching to dynamic linking, but currently i don't think so. i'm using zcx runtime for these tests. | [08:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | around gcc5 times (early 2016) binutils were verschlimmbessert with support of new relocations <<< aaahahahahaha. | [08:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | "they were seriously improved" | [08:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | that's a seriously great coinage. | [08:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt would you say "they were seriously improved" or "gravely improved" ? | [08:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | or actually, "they were most greviously improved" | [08:35] |
| bvt: | improved beyond repair? | [08:36] |
| asciilifeform: | poetteringed | [08:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's fucking beautiful. ^ is why german kicks so much ass, there's just no fucking shortage of poetry in it. | [08:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform diana_coman can either of you package a bin for his bootstrap privately ? | [08:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | no need to sign it, just encrypt it to him, so he's not stuck going to spamforge.barf/virusplox.htm.php | [08:38] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc i uploaded a signed build... cant seem to find where grr | [08:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | kk | [08:39] |
| asciilifeform: | will bake new one | [08:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | !!rated bvt | [08:40] |
| deedbot: | mircea_popescu has not rated bvt. | [08:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | !!rate bvt 2 http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/#selection-171.346-171.363 | [08:40] |
| deedbot: | Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qWVuC/?raw=true | [08:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's such a fucking pleasure to get up in the morning and get to the logs... | [08:43] |
| bvt: | thanks! | [08:44] |
| diana_coman: | I also tend to remember asciilifeform had at some point a signed build anyway, if it's still needed I can pack ave1's gnat, yes possibly he'd need both the "static-only" (i.e. latest version) and some previous version | [08:47] |
| bvt: | static version should be fine. then would also try it on cuntoo (have it running, the genesis signature still does not match). | [08:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | bvt dump the dir for trinque anyway, maybe it helps him. nobody suffered from too much data yet. | [09:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | open source versioning system : verschlimmbessert, verfluchtbessert... | [09:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | "/* ??? Glibc has for a while now exported __register_frame_info and __deregister_frame_info. If we call __register_frame_info_bases from crtbegin (wherein it is declared weak), and this object does not get pulled from libgcc.a for other reasons, then the invocation of __deregister_frame_info will be resolved from glibc. Since the registration did not happen there, we'll die. Therefore, declare a new deregistration entry poi | [09:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | nt that does the exact same thing, but will resolve to the same library as implements __register_frame_info_bases. */ | [09:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | " | [09:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | reading gnu code, always good for a facepalm. | [09:08] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813753 << bvt et al | [09:08] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-05-15 21:38 asciilifeform: ok, apol. for log clutter : | [09:08] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ ave1 gnat mirrored , circa may 15 '18 | [09:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | ty alfie. | [09:10] |
| asciilifeform: | see linked thrd for what's what. | [09:10] |
| asciilifeform: | np mircea_popescu | [09:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | now in other lulz, check this out : http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.9948-9.10055 "This is a special mix of insertion sort and heap sort, optimized for the data sets that actually occur." | [09:10] |
| asciilifeform: | holyfuq the opensores kunstkammer | [09:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | with a (unproven) claim for complexity cap no less. | [09:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | which doesn't seem right to me, either, but it might be built by induction from actual datasets, nfi. | [09:12] |
| asciilifeform: | 'proof dun fit in the margin' lol | [09:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | right ? | [09:12] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: it's prolly built by thumbsuction | [09:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | i also find caps always truthier if you have log in there somewhere! | [09:12] |
| bvt: | thanks asciilifeform, downloading | [09:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years. | [09:14] |
| bvt: | trinque: genesis (does not verify) from successful cuntoo deployment: http://bvt-trace.net/src/genesis-14.02.2019.vpatch | [09:14] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: aaah see on my planet kunstkammer is specifically peter's, with the 2headed foeti etc | [09:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes yes, it is. | [09:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | "curio cabinet" approx. but kunst is art, reminded me of teh whole thing, because guess what ? we all grew up with this idea foss/gcc/glibc/whatever "magic inside!!!" | [09:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | turns out chewing gum | [09:16] |
| asciilifeform: | aaha | [09:16] |
| * asciilifeform | had this 'third eye' moment some time circ '04 , when digging inside opensores lisps | [09:16] |
| asciilifeform: | *circa '04 | [09:17] |
| asciilifeform: | bvt: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7 | [09:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | coincidentally : is anyone from the adacore/gnat/gnarl/whatever days still breathing even ? or 100% bolix situation, "documents at warehouse, i am machinist in charge" ? | [09:25] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: adacorpse appears to be inbiz, but hard to say when last did anyffin useful ( see e.g. https://www.adacore.com/press ) | [09:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | and in likbez-mp : can anyone explain "weak symbols" as a concept to me without making it sound like a hack ? | [09:26] |
| feedbot: | http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection | [09:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | because i can't shake this very strong http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 flavour from "we don't know if this symbol is defined or not so we half-define it just in case" | [09:27] |
| a111: | Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111' | [09:27] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: it's a hack, of exactly that species ( see e.g. https://archive.is/vTHJi ) | [09:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | "but the mechanism for symbol clashing exists for a reason" | [09:27] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform why not do it properly then, get rid of symbol clashing as a concept altogether, let everything be the last thing it was and be done with it. | [09:28] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: cuz it'd break ~100% of extant c soup | [09:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | "socialism doesn't do things properly, it's against the religion. errything must be sorta-halvsies and then forgiven. " | [09:29] |
| * asciilifeform | holds that the gnu sepsis is a direct and inevitable result of ~how c worx~ | [09:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform what about c makes you not know wtf you're linking ? | [09:29] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the part where you can #include <foo.h> | [09:30] |
| BingoBoingo: | <mircea_popescu> maybe just link it but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means. << ties into the second archive link where... gossip rags are trying to monetize his sexts | [09:30] |
| asciilifeform: | without saying where is foo | [09:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform so basically it all comes down to a gns absence issue ? | [09:31] |
| asciilifeform: | or even 'v absence' | [09:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | if they had fully qualified descriptors instead of "filename" it'd be all rosy ? | [09:31] |
| asciilifeform: | not simply 'fully qualified' , but with knowledge of wtf the item ~is~ | [09:32] |
| asciilifeform: | as it is, there could be 9000 variants of foo, and on same machine you'll find 900 of'em | [09:32] |
| asciilifeform: | and all , to naked eye, 'same' | [09:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah, needs a v. | [09:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | treeless identity also meaningless. | [09:33] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: unixtardism suffers from the full spectrum of the idjicies outlined in that 'what gets mircea_popescu raging' article | [09:33] |
| asciilifeform: | from rampant 'substitute unlikes as likes' and onward | [09:33] |
| asciilifeform: | the proggies are shite not the least because author ~has nfi what he's throwing into the pot~ | [09:34] |
| asciilifeform: | and whole 'culture' of the lang is formed around this | [09:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | (note that the tempting "obvious" approach -- describe foo then!!! -- is not only fucking broken, but broken in the exact way minsky wasted life trying to produce. there can not be ~description~, the only way to induce meaning in the machine is through filiation. v-produced foo has a very strict "wtf is it ??" answer associated, but also very fine and not structure-driven.) | [09:34] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s ifdefism | [09:35] |
| a111: | 7 results for "ifdefism", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ifdefism | [09:35] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ for instance | [09:35] |
| mircea_popescu: | in fact, there's a long line of illustrious ancestors who, having spotted this problem (wtf is foo ?!) attempted to solve it ~the very wrong way~, ie, by definition. hence not just ai winter, but microscopically naggum's sgi misadventures and so on. | [09:36] |
| asciilifeform: | even e.g. #include <foo.h:e432850de89226c6745301a5932e30c5b09f260b9c850a5e76e8119f66b2f06f1798156138a1741aeff9c46ab90ff1d8ad97d9c089c7d76991a8b7ea8b104bdf> would've been improvement | [09:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | you can not in fact define symbols after the fact (and i don't mean just the elf technical term -- all symbols). the only way to define a symbol is by its parents. | [09:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform yes, but you see it as an improvement because you perceive it forces their hands down the right path, whether they want to or not. it's a rapeprovement. | [09:37] |
| asciilifeform: | the infestation is deep enuff that you quite obv could not make above example actually build reliably on any extant unix. the entire notion of 'portability' as pictured by unixtards (i.e. powered by #ifdefism) precludes it. | [09:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo ah right, there was all that huh. american industries. | [09:39] |
| asciilifeform: | 'what if you have a vax-flavoured foo.h' etc | [09:39] |
| asciilifeform: | in turn, foo.h churns, churns, 9000 new versions in 6 months, cuz c intrinsically is a '10 lines contain 14 bugs' lang by virtue of sheer obfuscatory ugh ( who can say e.g. how many off-by-ones in http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.11980-9.13314 ? in all possible calling contexts.. ) | [09:41] |
| asciilifeform: | spittoon -- is in 1 strand. | [09:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | well my dear alfie... you build it and see if it crashes. when it stopped crashing, you either got rid of all off-by-ones | [09:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | or else you have a workable even set of them | [09:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | workably even* | [09:42] |
| asciilifeform: | lol | [09:42] |
| asciilifeform: | there's yer 'workable' set , right there, linked. | [09:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [09:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | there's programmers, and then there's fuzzgamers. which are more like gamers than grammers. | [09:43] |
| asciilifeform: | pogrommers. (in the words of an ex- asciilifeform chix ) | [09:44] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them. | [09:45] |
| asciilifeform: | it does | [09:45] |
| asciilifeform: | cuz it pulls in ~whole box | [09:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | which it does not, when's the last time you had 1mn. wtf is all this tim's wondermachines steampunk idiocy for ? can just sort a fucking list | [09:45] |
| asciilifeform: | 'dynamic link' makes it 'easy' to pull in literally trillion symbols. | [09:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | nuts. | [09:46] |
| asciilifeform: | ( with added 'bonus' that you dun even know ~which~ , necessarily, recall dload() ) | [09:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | but as a factual matter -- object files end up a few mb, and they're not 100% symbol by mass. you jsut can not have this many. | [09:46] |
| asciilifeform: | dynamic! it dun even gotta appear in the obj. | [09:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | oh ffs. | [09:46] |
| asciilifeform: | can be computed at runtime. | [09:46] |
| asciilifeform: | ( witnessed in e.g. koch ) | [09:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | so why all this bs, again ? just so nobody has to know what they're doing ? | [09:46] |
| asciilifeform: | originally cuz iron & os babel. | [09:47] |
| asciilifeform: | that's the prime mover. | [09:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | gcc_assert (sizeof (const fde *) == sizeof (const fde **)) | [09:47] |
| asciilifeform: | ^ all gnutardisms are fulla this. cuz otherwise fat change anyone could come up with even a helloworld that builds at all. | [09:48] |
| asciilifeform: | vtronicism-ducttape. | [09:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu | [09:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | oooga-booga-bubu ? | [09:49] |
| asciilifeform: | whore in some ways has better working condition -- at least she knows will not have to fuck tyrannosaur. | [09:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | knows no such thing. | [09:50] |
| asciilifeform: | whereas engineer entirely might be given such , as a routine matter | [09:50] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: cocks have at least something resembling a bound parameter. | [09:50] |
| asciilifeform: | whore can look in guiness book and know approx what will have to take in. engineer on other hand will be given 'proggy may have to run on vax , and microshit, and ... ' | [09:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | btw, you ever encountered "Bărbaţii-s făcuţi din carne, femeile - din oţel. Ar fi trebuit să fie invers, dar Dumnezeu mai greşeşte şi el... | [09:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | Femeile zic că-s din carne, bărbaţii că-s din oţel, şi de-aia e noaptea-ntuneric şi viaţa e un hotel..." ro poem ? | [09:51] |
| asciilifeform: | loox familiar, i suspect it was in a trilema piece | [09:51] |
| asciilifeform: | but cannot presently recall which | [09:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | possibru! | [09:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | (for completeness, approx - "men are of flesh, women, of steel. it shoul've been the other way around, but god's hunchback and not above mistakes women say they're flesh, men claim to be steel -- which is why it's dark at night and life a hotel" | [09:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform in other news, if they ever send you to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891380 ima suggest your punishment be you hafta literate code extant gnu offerings. you may not change any code, just add comments. | [09:55] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-02 01:57 asciilifeform: i suppose will also work a++ for asciilifeform's peine forte et dure!11 | [09:55] |
| asciilifeform: | iirc diana_coman already did some time in that joint , when walked koch's thing | [09:56] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and asciilifeform -- trb ) etc | [09:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [09:56] |
| asciilifeform: | asciilifeform does ~this for bread, currently, so arguably already condemned to this | [09:56] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman is there some way to count the linker objects next time you compile say eulora ? | [09:57] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: afaik in diana_coman's case it is trivial, cuz static link. | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | i really have trouble believing the trillion thing. | [09:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform so what should i count, kernel ? | [09:57] |
| asciilifeform: | objdump --syms eulora | wc -l | [09:57] |
| asciilifeform: | granted this aint recursive | [09:58] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i.e. satan himself only knows what syms ~each sym~ drags in ~internally~ ) | [09:58] |
| asciilifeform: | in particular elf you only see what it 'externs' | [09:59] |
| mircea_popescu: | right ? | [09:59] |
| asciilifeform: | you dun see what the called routines 'externed', cuz you had built the libs statically, they pulled in what they pulled in | [09:59] |
| asciilifeform: | ( that part will no longer appear as exported symbols, obv ) | [09:59] |
| asciilifeform: | if you walk ~entire box~ and count symbols, you can get an approximation of the 'universe' count | [10:00] |
| mircea_popescu: | objdump --syms eulora-0.1.2b/euclient | wc -l >>7 | [10:01] |
| asciilifeform: | ( this is where asciilifeform cannot resist to 'on bolix, you simply ask the box what all symbols are, and can get source for whichever you point at' etc ) | [10:01] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, not very useful. | [10:02] |
| asciilifeform: | i'm surprised answer wasn't '1' | [10:02] |
| diana_coman: | mircea_popescu, I'm not aware of anything that actually does that reliably | [10:02] |
| asciilifeform: | as i understand, it cannot be done reliably on a unix, period. | [10:02] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman myeah. i guess it'd take a patch on gcc, which is too much hassle atm. | [10:02] |
| asciilifeform: | the process of linking is lossy from pov of symbol count. | [10:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | ahahaha jesus fuck this is incredible. | [10:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | "/* The count field we have in the main struct object is somewhat limited, but should suffice for virtually all cases. If the counted value doesn't fit, re-write a zero. The worst that happens is that we re-count next time -- admittedly non-trivial in that this implies some 2M fdes, but at least we function. */" | [10:03] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: c linking is simply automated cut&paste. | [10:03] |
| asciilifeform: | ahahaha typical | [10:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform see, i got horse's mouth number instead : ~2mn. ie, i was right! HA-HA! | [10:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | besides -- at least they function. | [10:04] |
| asciilifeform: | lol right function, until you bake build where 2mil + 1 | [10:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | it adds a zero! | [10:04] |
| mircea_popescu: | look for yourself, i've never seen such wonders in whole lyf before! http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.20821-9.21149 | [10:04] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: you gotta read the gnu malloc sores sometime. very similar 'thinking'. | [10:05] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway. seems gcc has a baked-in "max 2097152 symbols" | [10:06] |
| asciilifeform: | ( spoiler : heapism per se is a solution to a problem that is ill-posed , and therefore impossible for malloc to be anyffin but an elaborate http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 ) | [10:06] |
| a111: | Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111' | [10:06] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: rright, but that's ~per build~, and ea. build destroys symbols ( in the sense that they got statically pumped into the bin, and no longer 'exported' ) | [10:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | so ? | [10:07] |
| asciilifeform: | so it tells you 0 about the total # of syms on the machine | [10:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | it's per-instance-of-the-weirdo-optimized-two-head-horse-with-six-earhooves sorting mechanism above runs. | [10:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, the thing they "optimized" into insanity never actually has to sort more than mn-level items, ie, no ufcking need to be made out of boats floating on billiard table | [10:07] |
| asciilifeform: | rright, and this process eats a buncha libs, with n1, n2, ... nN syms in ea., and shits out e.g. another lib, that exports only 7. | [10:08] |
| asciilifeform: | so anyffin linking ~that~ will eat 7 + its own. | [10:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | sure. but we're not discussing the same thing here. | [10:08] |
| asciilifeform: | and produce e.g. lib with 2. | [10:08] |
| asciilifeform: | i thought mircea_popescu posed q of 'how many symbols on machine'. | [10:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | the problem was : as per http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897450 seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897382 -- is there call or isn't there call for such elaborate nonsense. the answer to this problem lies in the size of the dataset, if truly huge then ~perhaps~, but if small certainly not. then we had a discussion to establish whether large or small, which died on the facts, but i resurrected on culprit confession : | [10:10] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them. | [10:10] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 14:10 mircea_popescu: now in other lulz, check this out : http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.9948-9.10055 "This is a special mix of insertion sort and heap sort, optimized for the data sets that actually occur." | [10:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | they themselves admit 2mn is an upper bound, BY WHICH TOKEN they themselves admit the complification was spurious. | [10:10] |
| * asciilifeform | suspects that the '2mil' figure they got from 'how many in kernel 2.6 and let's times three' or similar | [10:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | quite likely. | [10:11] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, either that or they o(N) + n log n for some values of N, n. | [10:12] |
| asciilifeform: | the type of people who cannot stomach this type of 'thinking', 'engineering', end up self-retiring from unixism entirely, they eat pistol, or learn to run a crane, etc | [10:13] |
| asciilifeform: | this leaves who it leaves. | [10:13] |
| asciilifeform: | y'know, sorta like how botulinum secretes its magic juice, so nuffin else eats the carcass. | [10:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | ie, there's occasions where insanity has its place (go no further than http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-29#1115740 ). but this fashion among the scriptkiddies/gnu-amateur crowd for insanity is improductive | [10:14] |
| a111: | Logged on 2015-04-29 13:25 mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected, but it's my ex girl | [10:14] |
| asciilifeform: | aka 'worse is better'(tm) | [10:15] |
| asciilifeform: | ( with the bonus lul, that sometimes somebody walks in with a http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , and then simply has to 'unhappen' ) | [10:15] |
| asciilifeform: | ( cuz, spoiler, 'worse' aint ~factually~ 'better' , aside from 'stupidity has infinite hit points' ) | [10:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | are you discussing the specific case of grep there ? because i do believe it's a sound tradeoff. | [10:17] |
| asciilifeform: | it's 'sound tradeoff' until it aint (e.g. you have system where 'allcomers' can trigger a grep on a data set they crafted, and yer box grinds to a halt ) | [10:17] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: applicable to all cases where gnarly 'optimized for typical, and we think we know what is typical' | [10:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | but i do know what's typical in at least some cases. which is why my kitchen doesn't have a fast food counter. | [10:19] |
| asciilifeform: | ( 'but asciilifeform ! grep aint meant to run on hostile inputs !' 'guess wat, unix aint meant to run outside of locked mit hall with 4 pdp-8 in it either' ) | [10:19] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: yer kitchen is a closed system , in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897470 sense | [10:20] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 asciilifeform: whore in some ways has better working condition -- at least she knows will not have to fuck tyrannosaur. | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | you can't go around simply solving the most general case of everything. precisely because such a thing as closed system exists. | [10:20] |
| asciilifeform: | i.e. mircea_popescu actually knows that it dun need a deep fryer cuz wtf , it cannot be spontaneously filled with mcd eaters | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | precisely. | [10:20] |
| asciilifeform: | whereas unix.. | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes ? | [10:20] |
| mircea_popescu: | what, i get the luxury of a door lock but programming environment must take all comers ? | [10:21] |
| asciilifeform: | unix tries to 'be all possible kitchen' and appears to 'succeed', via fraudulently slipping in 9000 unprincipled-exceptions (hardcoded limits, not only in gcc, but even 'ls' , see old thrd, and moar or less errywhere ) , and 'optimizations' | [10:21] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah. | [10:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | holy shit, EVERY SINGLE THING. look here : | [10:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | " /* Take care to ignore link-once functions that were removed. In these cases, the function address will be NULL, but if the encoding is smaller than a pointer a true NULL may not be representable. Assume 0 in the representable bits is NULL. */" | [10:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | why the fuck would you use encodings SMALLER than the bus width ?! | [10:23] |
| asciilifeform: | antediluvian os (e.g. tops-10 et al) at least had hard limits printed in manual | [10:23] |
| asciilifeform: | rather than pretense of 'infinite' | [10:23] |
| mircea_popescu: | and why would you assume what broken notation means. | [10:23] |
| asciilifeform: | bonus: 'null' aint 0 on any extant box. | [10:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | right ?! | [10:24] |
| asciilifeform: | aaha. | [10:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | why not pick FB. | [10:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | i mean, FB and 00 are equally likely to be fragment of null pointer. | [10:24] |
| asciilifeform: | cuz, see, he feels free to 'assume', because anyone who doesn't, who demands to ~know~ before shooting, will have dropped out of school when faced with unixtardation | [10:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | i can't believe this works. | [10:25] |
| mircea_popescu: | what "ask the fellows to patch gcc, fix this one error we have". wtf, how do i ask this ?! | [10:25] |
| asciilifeform: | y'know , all those listservs where the muppets shit out multiple MB erry day , that's where they 'ask' one another | [10:26] |
| asciilifeform: | ( naturally if you aint one of'em, can ask until the cows come home. recall mircea_popescu's letter to rms ? ) | [10:26] |
| mircea_popescu: | shoulda sent him some pennies, http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267346 item cost the tard in question 500 bux or somethjing like that iirc. | [10:28] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 01:14 mircea_popescu: no. | [10:28] |
| asciilifeform: | and all of this sepsis, comes from machine where there aint (and cannot be) any such thing as global symbol space, where pointer does not store any info re wtf it points to, nor does a block of code know that it is a block of code , nor lolcat gif knows that it is an array, etc | [10:28] |
| asciilifeform: | and in turn heapism hacks , from machine that has nfi how to partition memory meaningfully, etc. | [10:29] |
| asciilifeform: | ( could go on, but i sorta have an entire www re subj... ) | [10:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267418 http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267417 http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267352 http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267349 for context. | [10:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 01:03 mircea_popescu: dude stop faking it, seriously. you, taaki and his sister showed up. nobody cares, fo reals. | [10:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 01:03 nefario: stallman seemed like he was going to cry | [10:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 Diablo-D3: why the fuck did rms even show up | [10:30] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 because by now not that many people can be bothered to invite him anywhere. | [10:30] |
| asciilifeform: | could link to the x60 affair also. | [10:30] |
| asciilifeform: | imho typical 'living mushroom' fare. | [10:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | (the sister in question being the 15yo http://trilema.com/2012/amir-taaki-has-done-and-continues-to-do-huge-disservice-to-anyone-serious-involved-in-bitcoin/ schmuck was trying to sell for bitcoins as a "totally legit enterpreneurial enterprise" coupla years priors) | [10:31] |
| asciilifeform: | ( asciilifeform's unifying theory, is that living in c ecosystem turns ~all~ inhabitants, after enuff yrs, into a kind of rms sorta like black lung of coal miner ) | [10:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | and the entirely fucktarded morons go about talking of this same schmuck in terms of some heroism or other, truly there's nothing more disgusting extant or imaginable than "people themselves" with their "democratically elected options" and whatnot. | [10:31] |
| mircea_popescu: | amir taaki is a dude who was trying to pimp his underage sister ten years ago. that's all, what the fuck already. | [10:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | clearly immigration to the uk worked out. | [10:33] |
| asciilifeform: | https://archive.is/xIdrE#selection-63.5240-63.6234 << oblig naggum. | [10:34] |
| asciilifeform: | ( was re cpp, but entirely valid point re unix architecture in general ) | [10:34] |
| mircea_popescu: | aanyways, thanks to bvt 's reading material i am well spooked. wtf do we even do, now ? | [10:35] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: if it were asciilifeform's proggy, asciilifeform would http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895596 | [10:36] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-12 23:36 asciilifeform: the avionics people seem to use it, but they (near as i was able to learn) dun kill tasks at all, and regard any detected wedge as a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895456 condition | [10:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | zcx doesn't work, sjlj is broken and glibc is beyond salvation. | [10:36] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform the issue is to come up with a linking scheme we can actually use. | [10:36] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: unless i misread bvt's piece, the bugola is only triggered when tasks are permitted to terminate. | [10:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | yeah ? | [10:37] |
| mircea_popescu: | "house only explodes when you turn on water faucet" is not an answer here. | [10:38] |
| asciilifeform: | so consider what the airplane people do. they dun terminate. instead populate with N threads, where N is the # of physical cpu, and they can idle or work as demanded. | [10:38] |
| asciilifeform: | this btw is how asciilifeform implemented phuctor backend. | [10:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | cute, but not useful. we gotta have a programming environment, not a programming cardboard. | [10:39] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: 'house explodes when i turn on the hydrogen faucet' 'why do you have a hydrogen faucet ?' | [10:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | we do not agree. | [10:39] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the real q is , what subset of the claimed extant functionality adds up to a programming environment. | [10:39] |
| asciilifeform: | ( i.e. working subset ) | [10:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | we're kinda discovering by doing here. but user-controls-machine is certainly in there. | [10:40] |
| asciilifeform: | this is factually not the case on unix tho. good % of the control is illusory ( see e.g. the zombie thread ) | [10:40] |
| asciilifeform: | or the 'seppuku of son' | [10:41] |
| asciilifeform: | what we did, is to poke with awl until punctured some of the illusions. | [10:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | i intend to approach hardware breakage at hardware level. | [10:41] |
| asciilifeform: | that's asciilifeform's tack. | [10:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | something like "keep two of everything and throw out anything that behaves in any way contrary to your illusion no matter what happens". | [10:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | is a good start. | [10:42] |
| mircea_popescu: | i find it works fine with people and it'll work doubleplusfine with hardware. let it adapt to my needs or die. | [10:42] |
| asciilifeform: | it worx great with hardware. except when it's connected like on pc, where 1 hosed device can fandango over entire ram. or handled as on unix, where i/o will happily zombie out on unplugged $gadget etc | [10:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | so it'll come to more boxes, whatever. | [10:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | the principle ain't changing to fit the world. | [10:43] |
| mircea_popescu: | s.mg is perfectly willing to eventually erect torture chamber where shamed boxes ritualistically destroyed for their sins. | [10:44] |
| asciilifeform: | this is how the 'cloud' people ended up with their circus. 'pc is broken' 'what if you connect 9000 pc' | [10:44] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: i'm sitting in something quite resembling such chamber as we speak. | [10:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | proof positive method works!!! | [10:45] |
| asciilifeform: | to revisit orig upstack thrd : pc dun offer iron locks. so threading relies on software locks, that 'work' in the sense where gcc is relied on to shit'em out correctly. what bvt appears to have found , is that (under particular inputs) it doesn't. | [10:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | so leaving hardware alone, "zombie thread because northbridge went south" etc -- we still need a linking scheme that works. | [10:47] |
| asciilifeform: | this is theoretically fixable. the sad part tho is that gcc is a potentially ~bottomless well of these. | [10:47] |
| mircea_popescu: | well, could also link against musl, ban glibc | [10:47] |
| asciilifeform: | that was settled in 2015 iirc. | [10:47] |
| asciilifeform: | glibc has 0 biz in tmsr proggy. | [10:48] |
| asciilifeform: | quite obv, any fix will have to fix musl. | [10:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | in any case, this is a major decision / inflexion point, and we truly need all hands on deck for this, i'm not equipped with the right chicken darts to throw at guts / read feathers thereof. | [10:48] |
| mircea_popescu: | so is basically the idea what we want is to get sjlj to work on musl for ada proggies ? or what ? | [10:48] |
| asciilifeform: | ( half the reason why asciilifeform dug out musl, is that it's compact enuff to be fixable, at least in principle ) | [10:48] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: it already worx , afaik, on musl, ave1's gnat shits out strictly musl-static linkage. | [10:49] |
| asciilifeform: | but remains to be established if bvt's bug afflicts it. | [10:49] |
| mircea_popescu: | some time to look at things and consider matters will be needed but i specifically want to hear something from asciilifeform ave1 bvt diana_coman phf spyked trinque | [10:50] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the diana_coman-bin we disasmed yesterday , is musltronic. | [10:50] |
| asciilifeform: | as is all current test build of ffa, etc | [10:50] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform yes. but to my knowledge to date musl was a preference rather than a standard. we never said "no more glibc linking" as we said eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879 | [10:51] |
| a111: | Logged on 2018-09-19 17:47 mircea_popescu: but anyway : NO NEW WORK ON SHA PLOX. USE KECCAK. | [10:51] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: imho the near-term thing to do is for bvt to get the gcc5sim, glibcism, out of his test setup. then can proceed to fix bugs that we actually have in the house, rather than liquishit that only afflicts glibctards. | [10:51] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: we did. recall the 'nss' incident. | [10:51] |
| mircea_popescu: | link ? | [10:51] |
| asciilifeform: | was found that glibc actually prohibits static linkage. | [10:51] |
| asciilifeform: | !#s libnss | [10:52] |
| a111: | 62 results for "libnss", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=libnss | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-29#1115985 | [10:52] |
| a111: | Logged on 2015-04-29 16:28 mod6: so libnss is dynamically compiled and built/linked to glibc, and can not be avoided? | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | it was subj of mircea_popescu's letter to rms, and the associated lulz | [10:52] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-29#1116015 << ? | [10:52] |
| a111: | Logged on 2015-04-29 16:41 mircea_popescu: you can't go "oh i don't use libnss anyway". you probably are. | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | when uncovered that drepper (maintainer of glibc) deliberately broke static linkage globally | [10:52] |
| asciilifeform: | this was a 2015 find. after which asciilifeform immediately proceeded to get glibc the hell out of trb. | [10:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-06#1089996 ? | [10:53] |
| a111: | Logged on 2015-04-06 18:19 mircea_popescu: what's now needed is an expert computer engineer willing and able to take over maintenance of libnss, starting with fixing it so it allows proper static linking. | [10:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | which line am i looking at here ? | [10:53] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: this was a ~3 month thread | [10:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | ok but you're breaking form here. | [10:53] |
| asciilifeform: | i dun think anyone's compressed it into a compact chronology of yet | [10:53] |
| asciilifeform: | ( possibly nicoleci job ? ) | [10:53] |
| mircea_popescu: | yes, no glibc was in fact a preference, and we got it out, of trb, of eulora, etc. no argument there. | [10:53] |
| asciilifeform: | and out of gnat. | [10:54] |
| asciilifeform: | ave1's entire project. | [10:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | nevertheless, we never actually said "do not use this". | [10:54] |
| asciilifeform: | glibc is simply poison. | [10:54] |
| asciilifeform: | ( e.g. 'bash bug', also drepper , also via glibc ) | [10:54] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, this can rest nao, | [10:55] |
| asciilifeform: | item is ~10x the mass of musl, and fulla 'surprises' that erry time turned out to be architecturally baked in. | [10:55] |
| * mircea_popescu | shall give it some time to hear from people. | [10:55] |
| asciilifeform: | aite | [10:55] |
| mircea_popescu: | afaik everybody up until a week ago when http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895231 nobody even compiled ada other than zcx. | [10:57] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-12 13:12 bvt: during the gnat build, the sjlj runtime is built, so it should be possible to switch to it and test. | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: until diana_coman's test battery, i never even attempted to use the tasking system. | [10:57] |
| asciilifeform: | ( none of asciilifeform's items to date, called for it ) | [10:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | and i thought, naivity of naivities and unexamined infantilism of unexamined infantilisms, that sjlj is a quaint artefact of slow yore, meanwhile supplanted by more modern, better alternatives. | [10:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | i actually thought this. i was still thinking this, feb 11th. | [10:58] |
| mircea_popescu: | cuz no, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897391 never really goes away. | [10:58] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 14:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years. | [10:58] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: near as i can tell , zcx is a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897558 , it attempts to implement multiprocess on ~all~ machines, incl. ones that dun have any support for interrupts (e.g http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895612 ) | [10:59] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 15:21 asciilifeform: unix tries to 'be all possible kitchen' and appears to 'succeed', via fraudulently slipping in 9000 unprincipled-exceptions (hardcoded limits, not only in gcc, but even 'ls' , see old thrd, and moar or less errywhere ) , and 'optimizations' | [10:59] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho | [10:59] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: ... nor is this the only instance of this kinda thing. consider e.g. https://archive.is/MxPlA#selection-14.407-2653.3 | [11:00] |
| asciilifeform: | they didn't include a word x word mul that gives you both halves. why not ? 'oh not all irons have a mul instr.' | [11:01] |
| asciilifeform: | or 'can haz carry from add?' 'no, cuz not all irons HAVE carry flag' | [11:01] |
| asciilifeform: | it's an elementary babel. | [11:01] |
| asciilifeform: | asciilifeform's 1st step in writing ffa, recall, was to conceive of (and prove) an arithmetic workaround for above. that, right off the bat, cost ~10fold cpu. | [11:04] |
| asciilifeform: | ( and when found that ~despite this~, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , was pant-shittingly hilarious, how koch still managed to be the tortoise in the race ) | [11:05] |
| asciilifeform: | this is rather like if 2 d00dz run, and the 1 carrying 100kg of lispmachine ends up winning. | [11:06] |
| mircea_popescu: | anyway, let's draw some quick possible approaches here. | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | a. we make no standard, every man for his own, but : a.1. ada is the preferred language a.2. musl is the preferred standards provider a.3. zcx is the preferred exception mechanism a.4. static is the preferred build mode. this should come with a design process for candidates evaluation for standardization. | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | b. ada-sjlj-musl-static is the standard, and we simply don't sign or use anything that doesn't live up to this. | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | c. ada-?-musl-static is the standard, either zcx or sjlj is acceptable (mostly based on what threading philosophy one embraces), with an obvious preference for zcx if one doesn't thread. | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | d. ada-zcx-musl-static is the standard for non-threaded programs, we don't standardize threading. | [11:07] |
| mircea_popescu: | e. something else (among which possible e.1. someone reads and implements dwarf properly e.2. someone picks a glibc to grandfather and dedicates himself to cleaning and fixing.) | [11:07] |
| asciilifeform: | re 'e', i can't picture what'd move anyone with two neurons to rub together to maintain a glibc, that'd be rather like starting a trb from prb 12 (or what is current one) | [11:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | can import glibc 3.x or w/e. | [11:08] |
| asciilifeform: | i dun see where drepperism wins in ~any~ version, vs. the ab initio and 10x moar compact musl. | [11:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform current one prolly v49, note how gcc went from 5 to 8 in 2 years. | [11:08] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform but it's not you who has to see, maybe someone sees, what. im certainly not sending you to e.2 | [11:09] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: cuntoo is arguably a realtime test lab for 'what does removing glibc from ~errything~ cost' | [11:09] |
| asciilifeform: | for instance, emacs has yet to be cured, as i understand | [11:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | so it is. | [11:09] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D | [11:10] |
| asciilifeform: | 'd' is arguably mis-statement of problem, a threadless proggy incorporates ~neither~ system | [11:10] |
| asciilifeform: | ( as asciilifeform recently discovered re ffa. it dun thread, and gcc correctly snips out all pertinent coad ) | [11:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~. | [11:10] |
| asciilifeform: | environment yes. | [11:10] |
| mircea_popescu: | it was short form for that. | [11:11] |
| asciilifeform: | aa | [11:11] |
| asciilifeform: | given this, asciilifeform would go with 'b' + 'we fix the breakages , both as-we-find-'em and proactively ' | [11:11] |
| asciilifeform: | rather than continuing in a babelized gnat with 'pick yer threader, pick yer stdlib' etc | [11:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | this pretty much bans glibc, from my unexpert cursory look it dun seem fixable for sjlj. | [11:12] |
| asciilifeform: | i banned it for all asciilifeform-powered efforts in 2015, and dun miss it. | [11:12] |
| diana_coman: | re glibc: until now I saw it as tolerated until full tmsr version (whatever that might be, i.e. owned glibc version or musl or whatever) | [11:12] |
| mircea_popescu: | diana_coman looks like it's going the way of cuntoo-ada-musl, no glibc. | [11:13] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the caveat is that i still dunhave a working cuntoo for all asciilifeform-operated irons e.g. rk is still running barbaric old glibc gentoo | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | it does seem precisely so, yes | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | and asciilifeform beat me to it | [11:13] |
| mircea_popescu: | asciilifeform getting an aarch64 musl sjlj going will be a fun task. | [11:13] |
| diana_coman: | that's precisely why it was tolerated until now afaik: because all sorts not yet fully ported to anything tmsr | [11:13] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: entirely. see 2d ago thrd. | [11:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | aha. | [11:14] |
| mircea_popescu: | (on both counts, lol) | [11:14] |
| asciilifeform: | i expect that i'm even doomed to open a book and see how the fuck arm64 worx. | [11:14] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: fix of sjlj on arm64 is actually moar urgent than arm-cuntoo, cuz sanely build ( static-musl ) ~will~ run on glibcistic linux | [11:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | possibly, yeah. | [11:15] |
| asciilifeform: | ( asciilifeform is for instance at this very moment sitting on a glibcistic gentoo box, but where all tmsr soft is musltronic ) | [11:15] |
| * diana_coman | remembers that eulora client is 99% NON-tmsr | [11:17] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman gets the trooly hard nuts to crack ( which is why retained by s.mg for coin , neh ) | [11:18] |
| asciilifeform: | ( asciilifeform also maintains multi-MB 'non-tmsr' proggies. for orc dubloons. it's how he eats ) | [11:18] |
| diana_coman: | to my mind option b has the benefit that it concentrates the effort in the right direction at least | [11:19] |
| asciilifeform: | ( the less said on the subj, the better, tho, my appetite already ruined by thinkin' about it ) | [11:19] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: if it aint a seekrit: didja ever try building client on musl ? | [11:20] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, honestly, all I wanted was this game! lol | [11:20] |
| asciilifeform: | heh | [11:21] |
| diana_coman: | asciilifeform, no, but obv I will have to not try but do it | [11:21] |
| asciilifeform: | rrright, was curious re the volume of barfola | [11:21] |
| asciilifeform: | ( e.g. asciilifeform was quite surprised when found that trb and ALL deps built cleanly & functioned on static musl ) | [11:21] |
| asciilifeform: | with ~0 modification | [11:22] |
| * diana_coman | has no curiosity on the topic: all pain at its time, not earlier | [11:22] |
| asciilifeform: | fair'nuff | [11:22] |
| diana_coman: | I don't know about option c i.e. whether there is something lost by going with it | [11:24] |
| diana_coman: | I guess the main thing against it would be that part where can't kill | [11:24] |
| asciilifeform: | diana_coman: the 1 use case i can picture for zcx, is on ultracompact irons. but even there, really, are we gonna use a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895612 somewhere ?! | [11:24] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho | [11:24] |
| asciilifeform: | that being said, sjlj is apparently totally broken on arm gcc currently, and if want a threaded proggy on e.g. rk, currently stuck with zcx | [11:25] |
| asciilifeform: | ( for killing processes, it is possible to e.g. use ada.interrupts system . but asciilifeform not yet tested ! ) | [11:26] |
| asciilifeform: | ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class. | [11:26] |
| asciilifeform: | ( when build on unix -- it gets implemented as unix signals ) | [11:27] |
| * asciilifeform | will brb : teatime. | [11:28] |
| * diana_coman | considers eating treebark: ate it before, certainly better than eating glibc-barf | [11:33] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897739 << mostly benefit of correctly chosen version. no such wonder for eulora. | [12:15] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 16:21 asciilifeform: rrright, was curious re the volume of barfola | [12:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897740 rather. | [12:15] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 16:21 asciilifeform: ( e.g. asciilifeform was quite surprised when found that trb and ALL deps built cleanly & functioned on static musl ) | [12:15] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897750 << tested nothing. fixed, gotta be ada not c. | [12:16] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 16:26 asciilifeform: ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class. | [12:16] |
| mircea_popescu: | also, subtle point in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897708 bears belabouring : the point is to standardize ~the tools~, not necessarily (in order) their usage, or end products. the idea is for user to know what to expect if builting a tmsr box, and why he expects that, not necessarily what he can do with it. | [12:19] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~. | [12:19] |
| mircea_popescu: | he can use it to crush hymenoptera for all i care, just as long as it contains the correct set of software. | [12:19] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: plox to expand re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897758 | [12:37] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 17:16 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897750 << tested nothing. fixed, gotta be ada not c. | [12:37] |
| asciilifeform: | possibly i oughta add the detail, that $item is like any other machine i/o-ism -- on bare irons, it writes to the irq table ( whatever shape that has on $irons ) , on unixen it yes uses signals, because wtf else can you do there, on (hypothetical) msdos gnat, will again write to irq table, on boxen without interrupts -- will give eggog on build, what else etc | [12:39] |
| asciilifeform: | ( incidentally, when asciilifeform speaks of 'iron babel', interrupts are a screamingly concrete example : there is ~no uniformity b/w archs re how they're implemented (does it save regs ? which ? what happens if two interrupts temporally near ? ) or how many , or for what devices, etc ) | [12:43] |
| asciilifeform: | old msdos hands will recall setting jumpers for e.g. 'soundblaster' irq etc | [12:44] |
| asciilifeform: | and conflicts. | [12:44] |
| asciilifeform: | this was 'fixed' by intel (with obscene amt of direct standard authorship by microshit) by making the controller 9000x moar complex | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | aka 'plug and pray' | [12:45] |
| asciilifeform: | 'younger' archs that were baked with decent # of interrupts to begin with, have ~slightly~ less retarded subsystem | [12:46] |
| asciilifeform: | afaik none of'em, however (with possible exception of sgi's) have semantics such that multiple processors dun share a bottleneck at the interrupt controller | [12:47] |
| asciilifeform: | ( ever wonder why cannot make 'unhangable' os for multi-cpu pc ? this is why ) | [12:48] |
| asciilifeform: | all of this might seem uninteresting until you realize that this is what sits under all threading, no matter how implemented on os side. | [12:58] |
| asciilifeform: | ( the very need for locking, on software level, for instance, comes from the absence of any sane mechanism for corralling data to particular cpu ) | [13:00] |
| asciilifeform: | concretely -- on sane iron, cpu do not share memory, but instead implement exactly diana_coman's work-queue mechanism. | [13:04] |
| * asciilifeform | brb,meat | [13:04] |
| feedbot: | http://qntra.net/2019/02/chicago-actor-hired-nigerian-brothers-to-stage-hate-crime-hoax-indignant-at-getting-caught/ << Qntra -- Chicago Actor Hired Nigerian Brothers To Stage Hate Crime Hoax, Indignant At Getting Caught | [14:03] |
| mircea_popescu: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897763 << currently ada depends on a layer of c to do basic things such as abort. this can not stand, esp if we want an ada machine. that writing to irq table will have to happen through ada code, not calling c. | [17:14] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 17:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to expand re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897758 | [17:14] |
| feedbot: | http://pizarroisp.net/2019/02/17/pizarro-isp-february-17th-update/ << PizarroISP -- Pizarro ISP February 17th Update | [17:28] |
| BingoBoingo: | In old log gems http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267555 http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267554 | [17:28] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 00:43 Bane_Capital: mircea_popescu: Well, I wish people would educate me instead of just beating on me. | [17:28] |
| a111: | Logged on 2012-09-16 00:43 mircea_popescu: this is how we educate kids in europe | [17:28] |
| mircea_popescu: | keks | [17:28] |
| * mircea_popescu | hasn't even the faintest who dood even was | [17:29] |
| BingoBoingo: | Apparently a UStard seriously underestimating what he paid in total taxes | [17:31] |
| BingoBoingo: | Anyways, All these names that had burned out completely before I showed up a few months later. History! | [17:36] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: by far biggest 'layer of c' is : the kernel. | [17:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | true. | [17:38] |
| mircea_popescu: | i suspect ada machine can be made with much tinier kernel tho. | [17:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | so do you. | [17:39] |
| asciilifeform: | i'm still curious what mircea_popescu thinks of as 'ada machine' | [17:39] |
| mircea_popescu: | me too. | [17:40] |
| asciilifeform: | heh | [17:40] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: http://pizarroisp.net/2019/02/17/pizarro-isp-february-17th-update/#selection-53.0-53.109 sounds interesting | [17:41] |
| asciilifeform: | is this actually in the worx ? or still chalkboard | [17:41] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: thinking about it, kernel is really the starting point for 'get c the hell off the box' -- the e.g. 20% of gnat's standard lib that's in c, is in c strictly cuz of reason illustrate in http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp , i.e. that kernel api doesn't eat sane (e.g. bounded array) parameters, demands liquishit c-istic buffers | [17:45] |
| mircea_popescu: | entirely possible we'll have to do kernel-and-rest in one gulp | [17:46] |
| asciilifeform: | seems like it. | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | though if possible, i'd just move the wrappers to ada first. | [17:46] |
| mircea_popescu: | one advantage to c's retardation is that well... as long as you feed it the shit it expects, it'll work in the same manner as before. | [17:46] |
| asciilifeform: | i linked the udp thing for a reason -- wrappers inescapably look like 'chunk of c', cuz headerola. | [17:46] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: I'm "knocking" on a few doors. The "polite way" hasn't been very productive, so the rapeful way is appearing very necessary. Haven't hear anything from the "Proud Boys", excess of ego appears to be a defect of the dwindling population of forum operators. | [17:47] |
| asciilifeform: | BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu did say. | [17:47] |
| BingoBoingo: | asciilifeform: Indeed | [17:47] |
| BingoBoingo: | A large number of the folks who did or in the past would have started a forum are in the Google/Youtube hugbox or similar "watermelon farms" | [17:48] |
| BingoBoingo: | Bizarre Characters gotta wank it | [17:49] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: the other major chunk of c, is of course the gcc backend. | [17:50] |
| asciilifeform: | ( gnat dun have own back end, and afaik never did ) | [17:50] |
| asciilifeform: | y'know, the part that actually pisses out e.g. x86 instrs. | [17:51] |
| asciilifeform: | ( locking bugs & all ) | [17:51] |
| * asciilifeform | brb,meatsystems | [17:52] |
| BingoBoingo: | <asciilifeform> i'm still curious what mircea_popescu thinks of as 'ada machine' << 128 bit MIPS 1, 2, 8, or 72 cores at 800, 1600, or 3200 mhz when purpose backed. Otherwise 128 bit for the UCI address space. | [17:53] |
| BingoBoingo: | That's all I've got to guess atm | [17:57] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah. | [18:24] |
| mircea_popescu: | actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises. | [18:24] |
| asciilifeform: | funnily enuff, i suspect there are a grand total of ~two~ ada back ends in existence : 1) the Official adacorpse one , sewed out of gcc ( the 'fsf gnat' is simply old copy of same ) | [18:40] |
| asciilifeform: | 2) bolix's | [18:40] |
| mircea_popescu: | except latter only works for their own iron. | [18:41] |
| asciilifeform: | could propose that there is a (3) , if one of the closed $maxint winshit adas actually implemented own, rather than stealing gcc's | [18:41] |
| asciilifeform: | but i suspect ~those~ are all stolen gcc inside. | [18:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | seems probable. | [18:41] |
| asciilifeform: | mircea_popescu: potentially retargetable. but currently nfi if this is a useful shortcut to 'bake a backend' | [18:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah. | [18:41] |
| asciilifeform: | at the very least, theirs is 50x moar compact than gcc. | [18:41] |
| asciilifeform: | (i.e. ~readable) | [18:41] |
| mircea_popescu: | problem with all this is -- the option's always between trust and knowledge. since we've discovered we can't trust gcc, it follows not only that we now have to write our own but that we must maintain the people who know how to write one. | [18:42] |
| asciilifeform: | ( for n00bz: ) writing a compiler back-end aint actually hard. asciilifeform & many many other folx, did it ~as homework~ , at school. the hard thing is writing a ~decent~ optimizing backend. | [18:42] |
| asciilifeform: | it's why ~errybody is using gcc's (incl. the folx pretending not to) | [18:43] |
| asciilifeform: | the other thing that makes backend a bitch is that ~100% of the work has to be done again and again, for each iron. | [18:45] |
| asciilifeform: | ftr much easier for a sane iron ( with small instruction set ) like mips, than for x86. | [18:46] |
| asciilifeform: | re bolix back end, i suspect it aint very useful as starting point, because was far ~too easy~ item , in that the iron per se was sane (i.e. performed bounds and type checks, so much of what gcc is stuck doing in soft, was unnecessary ) | [18:49] |
| asciilifeform: | if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' ) | [18:49] |
| asciilifeform: | but presently we haven't such. | [18:49] |
| asciilifeform: | ( this is where i point out, that the fabled 'sane iron' isn't simply a purely aesthetic win to ticke asciilifeform's aestheticles, but in fact substantially cuts down on the complexity of ~all other sane items~ that are to stand on top of it ) | [18:54] |
| asciilifeform: | *tickle | [18:54] |
| * asciilifeform | brb,food | [18:55] |
| BingoBoingo: | http://trilema.com/2019/get-lost-dumbo/#selection-1953.0-1961.24 << His baby wouldn't happen to be left handed would he? | [19:22] |
| mircea_popescu: | myeah. | [19:29] |
| mircea_popescu: | BingoBoingo entirely possibru | [19:29] |
| BingoBoingo: | Guy sounds a lot like Jack, stuck trying to raise his wife's son. | [19:30] |
| BingoBoingo: | Or lacking the backbone to stand up to his wife's boyfriend. | [19:32] |
| * asciilifeform | was in a public place where tv on the wall, and guess what was shown : mccain. apparently not dead enuff ( 'freshly uncrated' taped blather, near as i could tell. ) | [21:33] |
| asciilifeform: | http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897404 << before this gets lost in the chaos of gcc vivisections -- spyked , would be interesting to pry apart the zips & deduplicate , see what the actual text mass adds up to | [21:58] |
| a111: | Logged on 2019-02-17 14:27 feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection | [21:58] |
| * asciilifeform | expects that it'll fit, compressed, on 1 cd | [21:59] |
| asciilifeform: | ... then can mirror ~that~, and fughet about the orig shitenberg | [21:59] |
| asciilifeform: | aaand it aint as anybody's making ~moar~ english lit. can be 100% static archive. | [22:01] |
| asciilifeform: | 'hey do you have king lear?' 'lemme open the disk binder and look for 'the english', iirc it's next to 'the greeks' | [22:02] |
| * asciilifeform | set up a rebuild of ave1 gnat (june) on dulap, with http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/comment-page-1/#selection-163.2-167.52 . tomorrow will see what came out of this. | [22:18] |
| asciilifeform: | ( sjlj mode ) | [22:18] |
| mircea_popescu: | mccain, seriously. why not have him embalmed, "everliving emblem of roosocialism!!!" etc. | [23:25] |
| asciilifeform: | mummification is for dirty orcs, apparently here , 'advanced', will instead have his 3d animated corpse 'speak' deep troofinesses 4evah | [23:30] |
| mircea_popescu: | maybe he could do a duet with michael. | [23:32] |
| mircea_popescu: | sorta sonny & cher in 3d. | [23:32] |
Category: Logs
