Forum logs for 14 Mar 2016

Sunday, 24 November, Year 11 d.Tr. | Author: Mircea Popescu

assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76950 @ 0.00051483 = 39.6162 BTC [-] {3}	[00:02]
punkman	seems like S.MPOE holders didn't like the bbet announcement	[00:03]
*	mius__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)	[00:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19639 @ 0.00051625 = 10.1386 BTC [+]	[00:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50750 @ 0.00051625 = 26.1997 BTC [+]	[00:12]
*	assbot removes voice from punkman	[00:28]
*	punkman (~punkman@unaffiliated/punkman) has left #bitcoin-assets	[00:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41200 @ 0.00051625 = 21.2695 BTC [+]	[00:33]
*	punkman (~punkman@unaffiliated/punkman) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:42]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69200 @ 0.00051625 = 35.7245 BTC [+]	[00:49]
*	eth2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[00:53]
*	ethX (eth1@office.52.223.120.74.hashrate.biz) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[00:56]
*	ethX is now known as eth2	[00:57]
*	The20YearIRCloud (uid38883@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lnhxsjsddvflccjm) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[01:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56850 @ 0.00051474 = 29.263 BTC [-]	[01:05]
*	assbot gives voice to The20YearIRCloud	[01:09]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56282 @ 0.00051471 = 28.9689 BTC [-] {2}	[01:10]
The20YearIRCloud	Still alive	[01:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63122 @ 0.00051418 = 32.4561 BTC [-]	[01:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 150500 @ 0.00051379 = 77.3254 BTC [-] {6}	[01:28]
*	assbot removes voice from The20YearIRCloud	[01:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11804 @ 0.00051625 = 6.0938 BTC [+]	[01:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100338 @ 0.00051786 = 51.961 BTC [+]	[01:54]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101972 @ 0.00051349 = 52.3616 BTC [-] {3}	[01:56]
*	mius (~mius@unaffiliated/mius) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[02:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33781 @ 0.00051272 = 17.3202 BTC [-] {4}	[02:02]
*	NewLiberty (~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:c5d2:69db:be02:a6ce) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[02:09]
*	NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[02:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24050 @ 0.00051475 = 12.3797 BTC [+] {2}	[02:25]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00051594 = 1.5478 BTC [+] {2}	[02:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4499 @ 0.00051595 = 2.3213 BTC [+]	[02:35]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68350 @ 0.00051457 = 35.1709 BTC [-] {4}	[02:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22150 @ 0.00051272 = 11.3567 BTC [-]	[02:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 183878 @ 0.00051227 = 94.1952 BTC [-] {12}	[02:49]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431681 << a) a rose by any other trust backers would smell as sweet i'm sure b) i missed the part of this saga where this is not the	[02:56]
assbot	Logged on 13-03-2016 21:13:18; ascii_field: ben_vulpes: folks have destroyed far more precious machines than bbet by elbowing 'wrong button'	[02:56]
ben_vulpes	'not ready for primetime' fault of bitcoin	[02:56]
deedbot-	[Qntra] John Kasich Is America - http://qntra.net/2016/03/john-kasich-is-america/	[03:00]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00051532 = 17.8816 BTC [+]	[03:02]
BingoBoingo	^ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2016#1431302	[03:03]
assbot	Logged on 12-03-2016 18:43:24; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo guy's pretty lulzy. piece pumping him, large lulz potential. jus' sayin'.	[03:03]
BingoBoingo	Please feel free to add further lulz in comments	[03:04]
*	adlai gives up, after a dozen painful minutes spent trying to squeeze a beatbetification pun out of rosy-smelling corpsorations	[03:09]
BingoBoingo	;;bcstats	[03:19]
gribble	Current Blocks: 402567 \| Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 \| Next Difficulty In: 632 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 10 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None	[03:19]
BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all	[03:19]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.86, vol: 4024.57960254 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 414.193, vol: 2839.34471 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 416.4, vol: 10951.16911885 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 420.27693, vol: 25208.39880000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 413.78, vol: 2995.95622037 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 419.7518, vol: 10.61601934 \| Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)	[03:19]
BingoBoingo	;;more	[03:20]
gribble	418.082285048	[03:20]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87154 @ 0.00051076 = 44.5148 BTC [-] {2}	[03:22]
*	adlai must admit that before reading this latest article, he wasn't sure which party kasich celebrates; and that is still the case	[03:24]
adlai	probably best to leave it thus; 'math is hard'!	[03:24]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46950 @ 0.0005094 = 23.9163 BTC [-] {2}	[03:26]
BingoBoingo	adlai: 'Murican politics is like pop kabala, it's nihilism and fraud all the way down	[03:27]
*	AaronvanW (~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[03:37]
BingoBoingo	For the EE nerds	[03:44]
BingoBoingo	https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdb4JZ5XIAA-PBD.jpg	[03:47]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1YPN3Ww )	[03:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5708 @ 0.00050928 = 2.907 BTC [-]	[03:47]
*	paxtoncamaro91 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[03:58]
*	adlai might actually like it in that case,, being a nihilistic fraud himself!	[04:03]
*	phf` (~phf@unaffiliated/phf) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:04]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28176 @ 0.00051026 = 14.3771 BTC [+] {2}	[04:05]
*	rotarydialer_ (~rotarydia@unaffiliated/rotarydialer) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:05]
*	mcm (~MCM-Mike@unaffiliated/mcm-mike) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33162 @ 0.00050921 = 16.8864 BTC [-] {2}	[04:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77738 @ 0.00050871 = 39.5461 BTC [-]	[04:09]
*	Keefe_ (~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:10]
*	Keefe has quit (.net .split)	[04:14]
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*	BingoBoingo has quit (.net .split)	[04:14]
*	mod6 has quit (.net .split)	[04:14]
*	rotarydialer has quit (.net .split)	[04:14]
*	mcm is now known as MCM-Mike	[04:14]
*	diana_coman (~diana_com@unaffiliated/diana-coman/x-8319396) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:15]
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*	rajaniemi.freenode.net gives voice to nubbins` davout mod6	[04:15]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63400 @ 0.00051034 = 32.3556 BTC [+] {3}	[04:21]
*	NewLiberty (~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:c5d2:69db:be02:a6ce) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:22]
*	BingoBoingo (~BingoBoin@unaffiliated/bingoboingo) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:29]
*	assbot gives voice to BingoBoingo	[04:30]
BingoBoingo	;;nethash	[04:47]
gribble	1115867657.85	[04:47]
*	The20YearIRCloud has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)	[04:50]
*	gernika (~awt@unaffiliated/gernika) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:51]
*	DianaComan (~diana_com@unaffiliated/diana-coman/x-8319396) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[04:51]
*	AaronvanW has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)	[04:55]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00050843 = 35.7681 BTC [-] {4}	[05:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45700 @ 0.00051038 = 23.3244 BTC [+] {2}	[05:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120507 @ 0.00050825 = 61.2477 BTC [-] {7}	[05:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109300 @ 0.00050755 = 55.4752 BTC [-] {4}	[05:13]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64593 @ 0.00050548 = 32.6505 BTC [-] {3}	[05:19]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83650 @ 0.00050505 = 42.2474 BTC [-] {2}	[05:29]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00050948 = 14.9278 BTC [+]	[05:45]
*	Mob has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[05:55]
*	liead (~adlie@unaffiliated/adlai) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[05:56]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72600 @ 0.00050948 = 36.9882 BTC [+]	[06:01]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00050948 = 11.769 BTC [+]	[06:02]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33920 @ 0.0005113 = 17.3433 BTC [+] {3}	[06:06]
*	twixisowned has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[06:06]
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*	liead has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[06:21]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47322 @ 0.00050899 = 24.0864 BTC [-] {4}	[06:24]
*	p15x (~p15x@131.91.145.64.unassigned.bringover.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:28]
*	trixisowned (~trixis@2601:280:4102:c7de:f444:6f00:b7ff:8034) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:30]
*	Guest78749 is now known as BigBitz	[06:36]
*	BigBitz has quit (Changing host)	[06:36]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52100 @ 0.00050796 = 26.4647 BTC [+]	[06:39]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74900 @ 0.00050624 = 37.9174 BTC [-] {3}	[06:43]
*	copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)	[06:45]
*	AaronvanW (~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:51]
*	liead (~adlie@unaffiliated/adlai) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:56]
*	liead has quit (Client Quit)	[06:56]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 145500 @ 0.00050433 = 73.38 BTC [-] {2}	[06:56]
*	rdymac (uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cejwludgqskzwcys) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[06:58]
*	Hasimir has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[07:13]
*	TheAdversary has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[07:14]
assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 2305 @ 0.00277777 = 6.4028 BTC [-]	[07:16]
*	TheAdversary (~adversary@unaffiliated/hasimir/bot/theadversary) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[07:18]
*	trixisowned has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)	[07:19]
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mircea_popescu	ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.	[07:19]
mircea_popescu	was that the one where operator turned out to be << yes, with the reserve these ex post facto "turned out to be" things deserve.	[07:21]
mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski> mircea_popescu: does the bbet receiver have the authority to determine the cut-off date for acceptable wager resolutions and to refund any bets submitted but deemed "too far away" for the receiver to reasonably hold the funds in escrow ? or is this line in the sand to be drawn by you and kakobrekla ? << in general this'd be the receiver's authority. a reasonable path is you know, get the domain, put up	[07:24]
mircea_popescu	a "bitbet is in receivership, send no more bets" thing, give it a week or w/e. i doubt the receiver would have to wait out any ongoing bets, can prolly just refund if the reasonable resolution is too far away in the future.	[07:24]
mircea_popescu	but yes, by and large there's a lot of discretionary room for receiver.	[07:24]
mircea_popescu	xm2hi> yeah, and about the ecosystem that Mircea has created. impressive records. << - >> ascii_field> << there will be maxint of these now won't there.	[07:25]
mircea_popescu	of both kinds, i guess. with any luck, balance shifts slowly to the left as time goes on.	[07:25]
mircea_popescu	punkman> would that 100btc have to come out of bet money? << what 100 btc ?	[07:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100002 @ 0.00050553 = 50.554 BTC [+] {3}	[07:27]
*	p15x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)	[07:28]
mircea_popescu	look at that, archive.is went away ?	[07:29]
*	p15x (~p15x@c-73-35-160-119.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[07:31]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.0005056 = 47.4758 BTC [+]	[07:33]
mircea_popescu	old links still work, main page tho is borkt. mebbe it comes back.	[07:33]
mircea_popescu	punkman ah, no, i can't read it that way.	[07:38]
*	jidan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[07:47]
shinohai	;;blocks	[07:47]
gribble	{"blockcount":402601}	[07:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85300 @ 0.00050888 = 43.4075 BTC [+] {2}	[07:51]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51150 @ 0.0005101 = 26.0916 BTC [+] {2}	[07:52]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83513 @ 0.00050468 = 42.1473 BTC [-] {4}	[07:53]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00050289 = 23.9376 BTC [-] {5}	[07:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50004 @ 0.00050179 = 25.0915 BTC [-] {2}	[08:06]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120477 @ 0.00049876 = 60.0891 BTC [-] {4}	[08:11]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51328 @ 0.00049322 = 25.316 BTC [-] {2}	[08:12]
*	assbot gives voice to polarbeard	[08:51]
polarbeard	sup trb, any development going on since my patches got fired? B)	[08:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68650 @ 0.0004427 = 30.3914 BTC [-] {2}	[08:55]
shinohai	"Unrelated but why is this site's logo a bunny on a fucking Confederate flag?"	[08:59]
mircea_popescu	polarbeard not afaik. how you been ?	[08:59]
polarbeard	very busy in meatspace	[09:00]
polarbeard	but I'm still working in my little scheme-abomination, just slowly	[09:01]
mircea_popescu	cool.	[09:01]
deedbot-	[Daniel P. Barron] Rest Easy - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/rest-easy/	[09:02]
deedbot-	[Trilema] Gangs of New York - http://trilema.com/2016/gangs-of-new-york/	[09:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50448 @ 0.00044269 = 22.3328 BTC [-] {2}	[09:16]
*	tla (~tla@unaffiliated/tla) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[09:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8502 @ 0.00044016 = 3.7422 BTC [-]	[09:17]
mircea_popescu	" This firm grasp of sex and gender allowed Kasich to authoritatively heap praise on the legions of women who left their kitchens to help his campaign (archived)."	[09:19]
mircea_popescu	ahaha ok pretty good.	[09:19]
*	copumpkin (~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[09:19]
thestringpuller	meatspace is always over busy. if only traffic didn't exist.	[09:23]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41184 @ 0.00044016 = 18.1275 BTC [-] {2}	[09:26]
polarbeard	it actually doesn't for despicable cyclists like me	[09:33]
*	tla has quit (Remote host closed the connection)	[09:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57067 @ 0.00044414 = 25.3457 BTC [+] {2}	[09:35]
*	tla (~tla@unaffiliated/tla) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[09:37]
thestringpuller	polarbeard: what is mileage of your commute?	[09:37]
assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 1122 @ 0.00277777 = 3.1167 BTC [-]	[09:38]
thestringpuller	;ticker --market all	[09:38]
thestringpuller	;;ticker --market all	[09:39]
gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.19, vol: 3554.76960751 \| BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.0, vol: 5376.37856 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 414.15, vol: 9901.60494268 \| CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.679022, vol: 24536.31580000 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 412.074, vol: 3161.77970659 \| Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 418.822623, vol: 23.11506716 \| Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)	[09:39]
thestringpuller	;;more	[09:39]
gribble	416.448858518	[09:39]
polarbeard	I don't commute, code can be transfered over the wire :)	[09:39]
mircea_popescu	you should hold a class in that wonder.	[09:39]
thestringpuller	only if my coworkers actually worked as they do here when working from home	[09:40]
polarbeard	sheep must be managed in large groups	[09:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100300 @ 0.00044016 = 44.148 BTC [-]	[09:56]
*	mius is now known as mius__	[10:08]
assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 607 @ 0.00277777 = 1.6861 BTC [-]	[10:11]
*	assbot gives voice to asciilifeform	[10:13]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431921 << it came out that the bot only is able to think about a dozen moves forward, and if none too much branching.	[10:15]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 10:20:24; mircea_popescu: ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.	[10:15]
asciilifeform	ersatz.	[10:15]
mircea_popescu	i guess either we see a bunch of more games where this theory is tested, or else the great achievement goes into storage to keep the d-wave company.	[10:17]
asciilifeform	other champs already lining up to play	[10:17]
asciilifeform	lessee if they let'em.	[10:17]
asciilifeform	5th game - tonight.	[10:18]
asciilifeform	iirc	[10:18]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86600 @ 0.00044016 = 38.1179 BTC [-]	[10:18]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431896 << definitely in the logz	[10:19]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 06:47:55; BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdb4JZ5XIAA-PBD.jpg	[10:19]
*	Saweighfteen (~Saweighft@54.48.01a8.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[10:22]
asciilifeform	!up Saweighfteen	[10:27]
*	assbot gives voice to Saweighfteen	[10:27]
Saweighfteen	thankyou	[10:28]
asciilifeform	Saweighfteen: and who might you be ?	[10:28]
Saweighfteen	slightly less than sixteen; popbabyly unwelcome	[10:29]
mircea_popescu	this may be the first case of a person who is an age.	[10:29]
asciilifeform	^	[10:29]
asciilifeform	Saweighfteen: you stand for all slightly younger than 16 ? e.g., mozart at 15 ?	[10:30]
asciilifeform	how does this work	[10:30]
Saweighfteen	erp..	[10:30]
Saweighfteen	lost for words	[10:31]
asciilifeform	Saweighfteen: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com >> enjoy the logz.	[10:31]
assbot	#bitcoin-assets log ... ( http://bit.ly/1k33Uab )	[10:31]
*	felipelalli has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)	[10:32]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109223 @ 0.00044088 = 48.1542 BTC [+] {2}	[10:34]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.0004437 = 2.3072 BTC [+]	[10:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107100 @ 0.00044146 = 47.2804 BTC [-]	[10:46]
Saweighfteen	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f59nxsrtm8U	[10:50]
assbot	Hotel Garuda - Smoke Signals - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1UsMZLP )	[10:50]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85071 @ 0.00044016 = 37.4449 BTC [-] {2}	[10:50]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69484 @ 0.00043844 = 30.4646 BTC [-] {2}	[10:52]
*	assbot removes voice from Saweighfteen	[10:57]
asciilifeform	http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/03/14/one-of-the-worlds-most-notorious-hackers-just-revealed-his-identity-to-me << lulzy imbecilic 'l3337 h4xx000rz' piece. even features the obligatory romania.	[11:00]
assbot	One of the world’s most notorious hackers just revealed his identity to me ... ( http://bit.ly/1pj5Jld )	[11:00]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu will love http://woodcoin.xyz/woodcoin/2016-03-14#i_35977	[11:02]
assbot	IRC log for #woodcoin, 2016-03-14 ... ( http://bit.ly/1pj5RRG )	[11:02]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: http://www.wired.com/2002/03/aigames/ << although a snorefest to you, this is the article that got me into AI	[11:02]
thestringpuller	I have a soft spot for neural networks cause I spent many of my 8th grade lunches in the library building them.	[11:02]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...	[11:03]
asciilifeform	(even worked lisp into it. but this was a dead end thing and i guarantee that it is not interesting to anybody today)	[11:04]
asciilifeform	while we're on the subject, who recalls that arsebook also has a go thing?	[11:04]
thestringpuller	It would seem Go or any game is playable via neural net if you train the net well enough?	[11:05]
asciilifeform	and, unlike google, theirs has none of the secretive derpitude, it plays on kgs, they post progress reports, etc.	[11:05]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: nn forgets as readily as it learns	[11:05]
asciilifeform	which is why google's thing uses montecarlo method as heavily as nn	[11:05]
asciilifeform	it is 'dragon with two heads'	[11:05]
thestringpuller	that was what I focused on the most in 8th grade - LTM in neural netowkrs	[11:05]
asciilifeform	i will also point out that google INVENTED NOTHING for this item	[11:05]
asciilifeform	it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'	[11:06]
thestringpuller	The algo's imo were ahead of their time. Hopfield nets et. al.	[11:06]
thestringpuller	that's why that article was so interesting to me as a 13 year old since the AI in games was exhibiting emergent behavior not seen previously. (or at least throughout my childhood)	[11:07]
asciilifeform	i would read it, but it barfs, 'ad blocker detected', etc	[11:07]
asciilifeform	fuck wired.	[11:07]
asciilifeform	with hot poker.	[11:07]
thestringpuller	I'll text-ify it later. But I guess point it, don't you think computational power plays a role in what AI does in practice?	[11:09]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: see the mega-thread re: same,	[11:09]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-03-2016#1427845	[11:10]
assbot	Logged on 09-03-2016 16:19:22; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there were once two schools of thought re: how to do 'ai'	[11:10]
*	exner (~user@static-84-42-178-248.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[11:17]
asciilifeform	thestringpuller: see, in particular, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=26-01-2016#1386298	[11:17]
assbot	Logged on 26-01-2016 17:20:06; ascii_butugychag: (there was a spiffy talk at shmoo, which mentioned how nn used in image recognition usually imprints on what - to a human - would be an entirely accidental cluster of pixels, and if you flip'em, it will recognize an obvious, e.g,. cat, as a refrigerator, etc)	[11:17]
*	Saweighfteen is now known as eighfteenzing	[11:19]
thestringpuller	that seems to be a practical problem of neural nets. had an ex who's best friend's dad at the time worked on AI. He told me this story about how they were training a neural net to identify enemy tanks from allied tanks. well all the allied tanks had good pictures. the enemy tanks were recon photos taken at night. So the nn ended up learning to tell difference between photos taken at night vs day	[11:25]
*	dbclk (~dbclk@190-58-250-130.business.static.tstt.net.tt) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[11:28]
assbot	Logged on 13-03-2016 20:57:48; mircea_popescu: hence my comment about fragility. there are two main threads here that would-be bitcoin entrepreneurs must heed quite closely. one is that - your expense structure is not either a) in your own control or b) specificable. for as long as your business model involves bitcoin as it currently exists, you're doing the economic equivalent of linking remote dlls.	[11:32]
thestringpuller	not everyone can have a fully vertically integrated business from the get go	[11:34]
thestringpuller	last time americans tried that all we got were these lousy anti-trust laws	[11:34]
thestringpuller	log?	[11:35]
assbot	Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:11; ben_vulpes: "I will simply consider the matter moot." << and keep bettor funds if no receiver steps forward?	[11:35]
assbot	Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:54; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes eventually.	[11:35]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: what would you do in his place? spend the rest of your life waiting for a receiver ?	[11:36]
asciilifeform	give to the first hobo who asks ?	[11:36]
asciilifeform	ask kakobrekla ?	[11:36]
asciilifeform	i have nfi	[11:36]
kakobrekla	1 year	[11:36]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: yes well the question was not about bets. it was about how long you would have mircea_popescu wait for a receiver.	[11:37]
asciilifeform	even if all bets run to term, bbet still has to be operated by somebody	[11:37]
asciilifeform	to pay'em out	[11:37]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: so you would operate it yourself, for no reward, for a year ?	[11:38]
asciilifeform	how is that different from ' mircea_popescu ought to have eaten the loss '	[11:38]
kakobrekla	it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed	[11:38]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: i forget, did you ever write at length re: your side of the unpleasantries ?	[11:39]
asciilifeform	because right now the only thing i read was mircea_popescu's 'and kakobrekla refused...' thing	[11:40]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: was is essentially what nubbins` said earlier ?	[11:40]
kakobrekla	i can publish if someone wants to read. in very short, its: no skin in the game - no game	[11:41]
asciilifeform	i will read it, for my own education	[11:41]
asciilifeform	but i think i can infer what it was, from above	[11:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00043925 = 14.671 BTC [+] {2}	[11:41]
asciilifeform	if kakobrekla gets no dividends for a year+, he must do something else to pay bills..?	[11:41]
kakobrekla	i dont think dividends ever paid the bills.	[11:42]
asciilifeform	then presumably kakobrekla would still have 'skin in the game' ?	[11:43]
*	phf` is now known as phf	[11:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85309 @ 0.00043847 = 37.4054 BTC [-] {2}	[11:43]
*	assbot gives voice to phf	[11:43]
kakobrekla	speaking of: i had a 0 fee transaction confirmed today. it was made by mistake on or before 26 feb. and was not visible on any block explorer for the period of 18 days.	[11:45]
kakobrekla	miners konspiraci ? no. inconsistent relay policies? yes.	[11:46]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: was it high-S ?	[11:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 276055 @ 0.00043834 = 121.0059 BTC [-] {5}	[11:49]
kakobrekla	it seems low s.	[11:50]
phf	"it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."	[11:50]
kakobrekla	nubbins` i dont have any data on mempool backlog during the period	[11:51]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."	[11:52]
*	eighfteenzing is now known as snorera	[11:55]
asciilifeform	!up snorera	[12:01]
*	assbot gives voice to snorera	[12:01]
assbot	Successfully added a rating of 5 for kakobrekla with note: a principled and honourable businessman.	[12:02]
snorera	pool??	[12:04]
snorera	pool	[12:04]
snorera	dont leave any beard bits in the water pls	[12:05]
snorera	so they're pubes?	[12:06]
snorera	or someone dropped a fucking polar bear orf the deep end	[12:07]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122002 @ 0.00043623 = 53.2209 BTC [-] {4}	[12:08]
assbot	S.MPOE last 86@0.00043554 ... ( http://bit.ly/1USv0yT )	[12:09]
snorera	you??	[12:11]
gribble	829100	[12:11]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: i thought you did not believe that mpoe was a market ?	[12:13]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: and who then was 'actual business' ? mtgox ?	[12:14]
asciilifeform	usgbase ?	[12:14]
asciilifeform	havel0l ?	[12:15]
asciilifeform	no, srsly, mp's elbow button aside, who is the example nubbins` would have us learn from ?	[12:15]
thestringpuller	i would say brian armstrong	[12:16]
thestringpuller	he is the best thing bitcoin has to offer	[12:16]
asciilifeform	waiwut	[12:16]
thestringpuller	maybe Olivier Janssens?	[12:16]
thestringpuller	how to start a bitcoin business	[12:17]
snorera	hanbot's hot	[12:17]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: hanbot's advice was derived from working with mptronics	[12:17]
snorera	doubtful she can sage too hard	[12:17]
assbot	BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1p6Dw0X )	[12:17]
thestringpuller	was there ever a reason for using no tx fee?	[12:18]
snorera	yeah, to save b	[12:18]
thestringpuller	this is what was stated why the payouts were using 0-fee tx?	[12:18]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: what would have been your conclusion if he had transmitted with a fee but same thing happened ?	[12:19]
thestringpuller	I'm still confused I guess as to why no fee was used for the payouts..........	[12:19]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: that happened, and we found it was tx malleability, not a cartel...	[12:19]
snorera	^what alf said, fee or no, it's protocol	[12:19]
asciilifeform	yes.	[12:20]
snorera	yhes	[12:20]
*	exner has quit (Quit: leaving)	[12:21]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: i have nfi why he transmitted without fee. just as i have nfi why the operators at chernobyl reactor 4 wanted to 'test'	[12:22]
asciilifeform	http://chernobylgallery.com/chernobyl-disaster/cause << see also	[12:22]
assbot	What Caused The Disaster \| The Chernobyl Gallery ... ( http://bit.ly/1V6J1sZ )	[12:22]
thestringpuller	asciilifeform: pretty difficult to test a defective reactor	[12:22]
thestringpuller	iirc that wouldn't have happened with a legit reactor	[12:22]
assbot	BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1V6JdIE )	[12:23]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: we had this thread ?	[12:25]
asciilifeform	the incident hanbot described concerned freshly-moved coinz.	[12:26]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.	[12:26]
asciilifeform	as far as i can see.	[12:26]
thestringpuller	well should have waited 18 days for confirmation instead of 1 day?	[12:26]
kakobrekla	yes, they were movable and they moved. how do you say - mega unsurprise.	[12:27]
asciilifeform	so this'd be rather like faulting a fella shot as a bystander in a bank robbery, for not wearing a flak jacket that day ?	[12:27]
snorera	flak jacket illegal here	[12:27]
thestringpuller	bystander shouldn't be standing up during a bank robbery!!!1	[12:27]
asciilifeform	snorera: ty for inhabiting the shitland that exists to make usaschwitz look good!	[12:28]
asciilifeform	somebody gotta do it.	[12:28]
snorera	cops might wanna shoot us	[12:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30400 @ 0.00043554 = 13.2404 BTC [-]	[12:30]
*	assbot removes voice from snorera	[12:31]
asciilifeform	!up snorera	[12:32]
*	assbot gives voice to snorera	[12:32]
snorera	;seen cazalla	[12:33]
snorera	;;seen cazalla	[12:33]
gribble	cazalla was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: (which in a round about way, probably is ha)	[12:33]
snorera	single handedly increasing th popul;ation	[12:35]
snorera	he's got 4 chinese girls in the shed	[12:38]
snorera	thats what 10 bc does	[12:40]
snorera	nah cazallas a good bloke	[12:44]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125453 @ 0.00043437 = 54.493 BTC [-] {7}	[12:44]
*	mrstickball (uid14687@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rpvidbxujvxbnkpi) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[12:46]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70788 @ 0.00043236 = 30.6059 BTC [-]	[12:48]
ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431714 << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432045 << upon consideration the (absurd! ridiculous! i don't understand how the world works!) schelling point is for kakobrekla and mircea_popescu to split the haul	[12:49]
assbot	Logged on 13-03-2016 21:22:28; ben_vulpes: ascii_field: game theoretically permawedges obviously.	[12:49]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 14:35:55; nubbins`: hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?	[12:49]
snorera	voopzz	[12:49]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: what haul	[12:50]
ben_vulpes	hey vex back for the drama?	[12:50]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: looks like !	[12:50]
ben_vulpes	don't be thick, asciilifeform	[12:50]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: no srsly what haul	[12:50]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: lemme guess, you expect to see that he will turn down dooglus because he isn't active in modern wot, jurov because he agreed with nubs, you because usaschwitz inmate, and this leaves nobody so the bets get eaten ?	[12:53]
asciilifeform	or that no one even bids ? or what.	[12:54]
ben_vulpes	how could i be so thick and naive! asciilifeform points out that the coffers might not even contain anything.	[12:54]
asciilifeform	what coffers	[12:54]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes already thinks that mircea_popescu spent the betted coin on drink? or what.	[12:54]
asciilifeform	i expect it is still there.	[12:54]
davout	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432167 <<< protocol says no such thing	[12:54]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 15:27:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.	[12:55]
asciilifeform	davout: correct, the 'promise' says it.	[12:55]
davout	protocol says miners can include it or not, at their own option	[12:55]
asciilifeform	the protocol says pretty much nothing save what constitutes a valid tx and block.	[12:55]
asciilifeform	aha.	[12:55]
asciilifeform	which is why i said 'rot'	[12:55]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.	[12:55]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: presumably receiver gets to operate bbet if he can make it solvent ?	[12:56]
asciilifeform	or do i catastrophically misunderstand.	[12:56]
snorera	likely alf	[12:56]
ben_vulpes	bitbet is dead.	[12:56]
davout	sfyl	[12:56]
asciilifeform	snorera: i'm pretty sure i don't meet at least 4 or 5 of the qualifications.	[12:56]
asciilifeform	snorera: calls, at the very minimum, for an expert sapper, who is not a reich subject	[12:56]
snorera	i meant its likely the reciever woould try to maintain, but i can see yuo as it	[12:57]
asciilifeform	l0l	[12:57]
snorera	i can see me moreso	[12:57]
asciilifeform	aha.	[12:57]
snorera	im quite qualified	[12:57]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55950 @ 0.00043162 = 24.1491 BTC [-] {4}	[12:57]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: why do you say dead ?	[12:57]
davout	s.mpoe taking a serious beating today :/	[12:58]
asciilifeform	folks were bettin' long into the in-my-cuntry-theres-a-problem saga	[12:58]
ben_vulpes	davout: tis the Great Divestment.	[12:58]
davout	;;gettrust snorera	[12:58]
gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user davout to user snorera: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=davout&dest=snorera \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=snorera \| Rated since: never	[12:58]
asciilifeform	davout: vex	[12:58]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: let's just think about 'mods' for a moment.	[12:58]
snorera	fuck off sassoon	[12:58]
davout	oh lol	[12:58]
davout	asciilifeform: ty	[12:59]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: waiwut	[12:59]
snorera	i guess you've an interest davout?	[12:59]
snorera	i just voted for alf	[13:00]
asciilifeform	snorera: i dun think there is vote.	[13:00]
davout	i have an interests in more things that can fit in 24 hours	[13:00]
snorera	if there isnt i certauinly dont get one	[13:00]
snorera	i am qualified tho	[13:01]
*	solrodar (02788345@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.120.131.69) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:01]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: it was a mighty fine mazerati, if beaten up, but now wrecked ?	[13:01]
asciilifeform	!up solrodar	[13:02]
*	assbot gives voice to solrodar	[13:02]
*	dbclk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[13:02]
ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: hand fabricated lakebed racer	[13:02]
ben_vulpes	with a deadman's switch	[13:02]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, et al: is bbet for sale for the cost of the shortfall? or do i entirely fail to grasp the algo here	[13:02]
*	assbot removes voice from snorera	[13:02]
shinohai	!up snorera	[13:03]
*	assbot gives voice to snorera	[13:03]
ben_vulpes	ofc not for sale, asciilifeform.	[13:03]
ben_vulpes	i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership.	[13:03]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: why ?	[13:04]
asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: you think mircea_popescu was murdered by cia and hitler wants the 750 betted coins to buy a new airfart-one ?	[13:04]
snorera	recive dont mean sale	[13:04]
snorera	est no necessito	[13:05]
*	assbot gives voice to solrodar	[13:05]
phf	ben_vulpes: hehe, the 5 stages of grief :)	[13:05]
snorera	reciever just has to work out whjat the fuck is happening	[13:07]
snorera	alf qualified	[13:08]
mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes> i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership. >> and i will be astonished if one day you get off ass, actually do something. but then again, that's our respective problem.	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	and in other news, dear god what log.	[13:09]
solrodar	receiver takes over the business and then either sells it or liquidates it with the intention of maximizing the return to the previous shareholders	[13:09]
solrodar	once receiver is appointed, previous shareholders and management have no say in how the business is run	[13:09]
solrodar	but receiver is obligated to act in shareholders interests	[13:09]
mircea_popescu	solrodar stakeholder's interest.	[13:09]
snorera	feel freee to recieve as you like	[13:09]
snorera	id be reporting to mp and kako	[13:10]
solrodar	mircea_popescu: if you mean creditors, they have to respect their claims but they're ultimately working for the shareholders, right	[13:10]
mircea_popescu	well yeah, creditors generally. it can't just go, "hey, shareholder's interest is they get all moneyz so there. problem solved."	[13:11]
*	tla has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 45.0/20160304160021])	[13:13]
solrodar	snorera: there is no reporting, it's a fiduciary arrangement, they can't actually control what the receiver does	[13:15]
solrodar	that's what would distinguish a receiver from an arbitrator	[13:15]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432016 << check that out, 3 of us!	[13:16]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 14:04:26; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...	[13:16]
mircea_popescu	mine didn't do anything really.	[13:16]
snorera	i aint no arbitrator	[13:16]
snorera	twat	[13:17]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432026 << phuctor, sort-of.	[13:17]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 14:07:07; asciilifeform: it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'	[13:17]
snorera	do you have an interet?	[13:17]
snorera	interest	[13:17]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.	[13:19]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 14:39:06; kakobrekla: it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed	[13:19]
mircea_popescu	you don't, however, have a manner to walk out of this WITH bitbet, no matter what discussions may pass. it does not belong to you, irrespective what you may think.	[13:20]
solrodar	snorera: me?	[13:20]
snorera	yeah you	[13:20]
solrodar	I am considering it, but doubt I have the necessary reputation here	[13:21]
mircea_popescu	who are you anyway ? either of you two ?	[13:21]
solrodar	I did the trb call graphing work last year	[13:22]
snorera	im not a wank hole	[13:22]
jurov	!b 2	[13:22]
assbot	Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/13JCPR0.txt )	[13:22]
mircea_popescu	solrodar ah i recall.	[13:23]
solrodar	so I have proven a certain amount of technical skill, but this role would also need proven good judgement	[13:24]
mircea_popescu	and a disinclination to split with a few hundred btc.	[13:24]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432087 << i lollered.	[13:24]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."	[13:24]
mircea_popescu	if you ever throw a party somewhere that isn't in a swamp i wanna come.	[13:27]
*	PeterL (~peter@unaffiliated/peterl) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[13:29]
*	assbot gives voice to PeterL	[13:29]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432210 << so basically we have a community full of people who confuse "voice of sanity" and "people on tilt" liberally, and by and large is willing to "discuss" everything from this arm's length position of "whatever, as long as we're spending other people's money here's what we think", but by and large can't do anything AT ALL ?	[13:31]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 15:56:32; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	and this is mp's fault, because unlike everyone else he at least you know, try to run the daycare for half a decade ?	[13:31]
mircea_popescu	this new learning amuses me, go protect the earth from earthquakes with banana peels or whatever it is you do for great glory.	[13:31]
phf	nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and	[13:32]
phf	invalidates not just mp, but others who participated in construction of tmsr.	[13:32]
phf	nubbins`: i think it's a pointless to discuss (and takes away from the core of the issue) whether or not miners are conspiring against bitbet. ascii's been known to say that lizard hitler personally disconnected his node, nobody cared to pipe in then, because it's an established local way of talking and thinking (не веришь прими за сказку). miners are a cartel, they can collectively decide what the protocol behavior should be, mp ran	[13:32]
phf	into a controversial protocol behavior, mp called it "miners are conspiring against bitbet". you can personally call mp stupid for that, but there's no "crime" there.	[13:32]
phf	nubbins`: the core of the issue (the way i understand it) is whether or not mp can use personal funds to pay out bets, and whether he can later ask for those funds back from shareholders. that seems to contradict the contract, so the accusation goes, he's in breach of contract. seems simple enough.	[13:32]
phf	i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision of what has transpired,	[13:32]
phf	rather then ~everybody~ seemingly losing their shit.	[13:32]
phf		[13:32]
phf	(apologies for wall of text)	[13:32]
snorera	didnt read, no worries	[13:33]
*	assbot removes voice from snorera	[13:33]
solrodar	lol	[13:33]
mircea_popescu	i was here before you, phf , doing exactly the same thing. so count the whole list thx.	[13:33]
phf	count the whole list?	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	(mp, myself, maybe ascii)	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	definitely mod6	[13:34]
mircea_popescu	there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.	[13:35]
mircea_popescu	this usually attracts talkers, if they be any good, at least. exactly the same way it worked for satoshi, and exactly the same way it always seems to work out, a little later you look around and there's all this democracy and "consumers have come to expect" and general bullshit imported, which you don't even rightly feel able to explain whence it came.	[13:36]
mircea_popescu	but whatever! no swamp was drained in one day.	[13:37]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48226 @ 0.00043232 = 20.8491 BTC [+] {2}	[13:39]
PeterL	mircea_popescu what about the part of the listing that says shares will be paid out a minimum of 0.00001 ? If selling the domain+code does not cover the 17btc shortfall and this minimum, are you and kakobrekla expected to pay this out of pocket?	[13:39]
mircea_popescu	i would think so, yes.	[13:40]
jurov	phf there is no judge mircea_popescu wuld accept such "verdicts" from. remember when rota decided in similar way?	[13:40]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 << yes !	[13:40]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain	[13:40]
PeterL	didn't MP follow decision of Rota?	[13:40]
*	shinohai beware the ides of March	[13:40]
PeterL	before closing down rota?	[13:40]
solrodar	yes, and then declared he would never subject himself to something like that again	[13:40]
mircea_popescu	mp did follow it, but jurov is none to bothered with things like logic, or not outright lying, when there's something the monkey on his back WANTS!!1	[13:40]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432312 << wai wut, i am by no stretch of the imagination qualified to clear the bbet minefield	[13:41]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 16:35:22; mircea_popescu: (mp, myself, maybe ascii)	[13:41]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it is, like anything else, a voluntary position.	[13:42]
jurov	so am i lying when i say, that you resolved not to subject to any judgement?	[13:42]
mircea_popescu	jurov i said, at the time, that i can't in good conscience allow people to vote largesse out of mpex. plox, read the thing you're talking about.	[13:42]
phf	jurov: and when judge passes a verdict and mp does not comply or whatever the outcome is we can say "tmsr as an instituation has failed and we can walk away" i mean, what's the problem there?	[13:43]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i mean, from purely technical point of view, i think i have sufficient brain, but if it became known that i have the ignition keys to xxx btc in my house, i will last maybe a day before gestapo.	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i do not think you have sufficient brain. business is business, there's nothing "technical point of view" about it.	[13:43]
asciilifeform	fair.	[13:43]
asciilifeform	let the pro sappers do it.	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	yes, in a different life had you grown to be a jew and went into commercial law rather than kaballah, you would have done fine.	[13:43]
mircea_popescu	in this life tho, you went another way.	[13:43]
asciilifeform	i don't know which direction detonator in claymore unscrews, either.	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	phf exactly how is this "not comply" going to work ? cuz i dun follow really.	[13:44]
asciilifeform	or how to remove antitamper on a 'butterfly'	[13:44]
asciilifeform	etc.	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	judge is going to rule "hey, mp must continue to spend liberally to try and build a thing out of nothing - BUT THIS TIME WE DECIDE HOW MUCH AND ON WHAT!!1" thus turning tmsr into the 51 state ?	[13:44]
mircea_popescu	i'll piss on his grave, judge or no judge.	[13:45]
*	asciilifeform is actually happy that he isn't being conscripted for this particular chore	[13:45]
solrodar	I think the real problem here is not the solvency or otherwise of bitbet, but the fact that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have had a breakdown in trust and no longer want to work with each other	[13:45]
solrodar	that could be resolved by other means than liquidation	[13:45]
solrodar	such as by one or both of them selling their controlling interest	[13:45]
PeterL	has anybody expressed interest in buying bitbet yet?	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	PeterL seems that time came and went.	[13:45]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424845	[13:46]
assbot	Logged on 07-03-2016 16:13:22; mircea_popescu: by all means. hence, " and if there's a single icann in the lot with enough actual gumption to put together a hostile takeover package, i'll certainly consider it."	[13:46]
asciilifeform	PeterL: it'd have to be sold to someone who can be relied on not to run off with the contents ?	[13:46]
mircea_popescu	hey check it out, nobody spells icahn's name right.	[13:46]
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mircea_popescu	there's two peter lamberts ?!	[13:47]
phf	mircea_popescu: hey some people clearly want to see blood. i think judgement should exclusively affect only people's wot ratings and is necessary for when the issue is complicated and needs an investigation. sort of like a write up that supreme court judges do. nobody even needs to agree with it	[13:47]
solrodar	mircea_popescu: as I understand the listing agreement, both you and kakobrekla need to agree before either of you can sell your joint 50%	[13:48]
solrodar	how can it be hostile?	[13:48]
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mircea_popescu	in that it outsts some/all management.	[13:48]
solrodar	with their consent	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	that's the usual sense of hostile in that context.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	well yes with their consent, it's not rapine.	[13:48]
mircea_popescu	!up peter_lambert	[13:49]
-assbot-	You voiced peter_lambert for 30 minutes.	[13:49]
*	assbot gives voice to peter_lambert	[13:49]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432314 << what does it mean in this context, to be 'driven by poverty' ?	[13:49]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 16:36:05; mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.	[13:49]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you familiar with the saying "can take girl out of the trailer park, but not the trailer park out of the girl" ? that, except for boys.	[13:49]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i must confess, i was never on tardtalk, etc. and have very limited experience with this item. but i think i know what it is, from logz	[13:50]
mircea_popescu	it's the historical and to my eyes first sense of mean / meanness.	[13:51]
asciilifeform	it is the pestilence that drove my deep disinterest in bitcoin ~users~ 2009-2012.	[13:51]
*	assbot gives voice to PeterL	[13:52]
asciilifeform	illiterate peasants hitting one another with broken-down spades over a stolen fuck-goat	[13:52]
PeterL	asciilifeform the receivership of bitbet could include refunding all bet deposits, then the site could be sold without transfering the bet funds, let them restart from scratch?	[13:53]
asciilifeform	PeterL: but receiver would have to actually hold the keys, however briefly	[13:54]
asciilifeform	as i understand	[13:54]
PeterL	yes, but receiver and buyer would not have to be the same person	[13:54]
PeterL	so these are separate issues	[13:55]
asciilifeform	anyway, i am not involved with any of this, and for very good reasons (see mircea_popescu's explanation.)	[13:55]
asciilifeform	as far as i can see, the only chance of it resolving cleanly involves mircea_popescu doing a multitude of 'things for phree' which is one of the reasons he is in none too happy a mood.	[13:56]
asciilifeform	but holding a gigantic bag of other folks' coin is not really an outsourceable job.	[13:56]
mircea_popescu	well, we're many layers above that, however. in this rarefied atmosphere which, however frustrating, is still many miles above the peasants with their fuckgoat, we meet the twin dragon of, on one hand,	[13:57]
mircea_popescu	"They consider themselves leaderless. They can have representatives, they can have "evangelists" but they have to believe that their conclusions are all their own, through individual reflection and objective consideration. Interestingly, and on purpose, they believe their brains can handle such an analysis, any analysis. This isn't arrogance. They are told, by universities and the media, that their mind is prepared	[13:57]
mircea_popescu	to do this heavy lifting as long as they are given just the right facts, filtered from the noise."	[13:57]
mircea_popescu	and on the other hand, the lulzy "a man that doesn't believe in allah can't possibly not go on a murdering rampage" deeply held if ridiculous, and certainly unexamined belief of egyptian peasants, except translated in time and space to you know, "one in a position of authority is necessarily both bad and responsible!"	[13:57]
mircea_popescu	these are deeper issues that what can be addressed in plain conversation, i'm sure.	[13:57]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i'm not doing more shit for free in this context ; not only because it is outrageous for the recipients of charity to direct the disbursement of charity, but most of all because the end result of a world kept clean, warm and humming along on charity is a disproportionate feeling of power in the idle denizens, who then end up running into "steel walls".	[13:58]
mircea_popescu	not terribly fair to raise the children thus.	[13:58]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this was an observation, rather than prescription, i am noting that you are doing a megatonne of unplesant wurk for phree.	[13:59]
mircea_popescu	point.	[13:59]
asciilifeform	sorta like stalin did.	[14:00]
asciilifeform	what was his reward for leading the 'blind kittens' ?	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	and to disabuse THAT notion, i don't personally think stalin was either very apt, very smart, or any sort of example to be followed. is, indeed, a notable example for all sorts of things,	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	but most to do with how idiotic everyone else was, not not even measure up to the georgian.	[14:01]
asciilifeform	but this is not why he was working for free.	[14:01]
asciilifeform	he, afaik, simply did not have the tastes with which he could enjoy a reward for his work.	[14:01]
asciilifeform	his aptness - or ineptness - are not the moving part here	[14:01]
mircea_popescu	true, on both ends.	[14:02]
asciilifeform	possibly it was his only strength...	[14:03]
asciilifeform	he was not, in the sense discussed earlier, 'moved by poverty'	[14:03]
asciilifeform	left behind no swiss accounts.	[14:04]
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mircea_popescu	a strength both understood and tried to be replicated by a bunchy of lesser copies throughout the "unalligned" movement and well beyond.	[14:05]
asciilifeform	(notably, refused, for his entire reign, to sell mineral resources from his country to foreign devils. successors IMMEDIATELY began this burning of furniture, culminating in modern ru 'pipe economy.')	[14:05]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: aha, it was, in the copies, a mega-l0l quite comparable to the false asceticism of medieval monks	[14:06]
asciilifeform	'vow of poverty' surrounded by gold and jewels, 'chastity' with cocksuckers in every corner, etc.	[14:06]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36300 @ 0.00043232 = 15.6932 BTC [+]	[14:08]
jurov	stalin surely too tought "bah stupid poor tarstalk redditors!" when someone was criticizing his zerofee experiments with hitler	[14:10]
mircea_popescu	afaik this is on the record, even.	[14:11]
asciilifeform	very much	[14:11]
shinohai	by the pool >>> https://i.imgur.com/JVEw9uS.jpg	[14:11]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/250h2iU )	[14:11]
asciilifeform	i recently finished an interesting history, 'Расстрелянные герои Советского Союза' (Heroes of SU who were condemned to the firing squad)	[14:12]
asciilifeform	it was largely about this	[14:12]
asciilifeform	(distinguished su military men, who were executed for failure to mop up stalin's mistake)	[14:13]
asciilifeform	though it was never clear to me that the delay-game played with germany was a mistake.	[14:14]
mircea_popescu	much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?	[14:15]
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mircea_popescu	ow fuck, that's ANOTHER thing i won't have to do, resolve that god damned bet, huh.	[14:16]
mircea_popescu	hallelujah.	[14:16]
thestringpuller	;;isup qntra.net	[14:17]
gribble	qntra.net is up	[14:17]
thestringpuller	huh...	[14:18]
mircea_popescu	i even promise to not pelt with invective the poor receiver whichever way he chooses to go.	[14:19]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432414 << what does study of history 'do' ?	[14:19]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 17:16:26; mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	he'll get enough from "the community", i'm sure.	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform very different concerns here ; history may be informative but it's never dispositive.	[14:19]
mircea_popescu	not in a manner "technical knowledge" or say a blueprint is.	[14:20]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: did you read the 4th game ?	[14:20]
mircea_popescu	nah i looked (briefly) through the first three	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	about all i had time/patience for.	[14:21]
asciilifeform	the 4th is the interesting one.	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	maybe one day.	[14:21]
mircea_popescu	going through a game of go is rare among endeavours in that i can't be doing other things.	[14:21]
asciilifeform	yeah.	[14:22]
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mircea_popescu	thestringpuller i see it.	[14:22]
thestringpuller	"The server at qntra.net can't be found, because the DNS lookup failed."	[14:23]
asciilifeform	loads ok here	[14:23]
thestringpuller	I'll try it from another location later. Guess no qntra at work.	[14:23]
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asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: but thus far i don't see how the bet is difficult to resolve. the presumption is that the game was legit, no? barring actual proof of shenanigans ?	[14:24]
asciilifeform	is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	myeah.	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	it's just this unpleasant "bitbet bets once resolve enact history". i dislike the notion of cementing google's transpared ploy into my blockchain. i'm sure it's all me.	[14:25]
mircea_popescu	and in other fema camp news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1cg3b5ECz1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg	[14:25]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/250iwd0 )	[14:26]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: not only you.	[14:26]
asciilifeform	but mircea_popescu is the one stuck driving the grim bulldozer.	[14:26]
mircea_popescu	*resolved / transparent etc.	[14:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43139 @ 0.00043182 = 18.6283 BTC [-] {2}	[14:28]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99250 @ 0.00043155 = 42.8313 BTC [-] {4}	[14:35]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.	[14:36]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: was it really meant to live only until the first disaster, however small? e.g., stolen server ?	[14:37]
asciilifeform	nubbins`: or was the idea that it ~ought to be~ successful enough to be able to cover any loss with simply the profit from any particular month ?	[14:37]
phf	nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"	[14:37]
asciilifeform	^	[14:38]
asciilifeform	i must agree with phf. and i think this is how nubbins` ended up killfiled by mircea_popescu, for the 'i speak for trees, for the trees have no tongues' thing.	[14:38]
asciilifeform	the 'trees' very much DO have motherfuckingt tongues here.	[14:38]
asciilifeform	and don't need a 'speaker for.'	[14:38]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49637 @ 0.00043172 = 21.4293 BTC [+] {3}	[14:45]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00043122 = 24.6658 BTC [-] {2}	[14:48]
*	assbot gives voice to mats	[14:50]
shinohai	http://archive.is/Dl6ob <<< look at what the vc capital buys, fake nodez!	[14:53]
assbot	Network Snapshot - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/250lbmW )	[14:53]
mats	hello lords and peers	[14:54]
asciilifeform	/Classic:0.12.0/2310 (29.15%)	[14:54]
asciilifeform	l0l!	[14:54]
asciilifeform	and mircea_popescu wondered where the sybils.	[14:55]
asciilifeform	turns out, right there.	[14:55]
shinohai	keklicious	[14:55]
asciilifeform	shinohai: betcha there's a botnet install in there.	[14:56]
asciilifeform	there were thousands of sybils, note, for quite some time.	[14:58]
asciilifeform	but what there also was, was mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz	[14:59]
asciilifeform	and possibly he is now cured of it.	[14:59]
asciilifeform	sybil attacks work not because there are many sybils, but because they ~act in concert~	[15:00]
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asciilifeform	the number is simply to ensure that folks connecting at random, in public toilets, end up with a thick layer of sybil between them and the statistically probable genuine non-gangrenous flesh somewhere far away.	[15:00]
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shinohai	xD	[15:01]
solrodar	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432450 << what happened to the "reserve" of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-04-2014#608433 ?	[15:06]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 17:37:40; asciilifeform: nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.	[15:06]
assbot	Logged on 07-04-2014 19:36:22; kakobrekla: cool, so its a double reverse fractional reserve	[15:06]
phf	solrodar: nothing need have happened to warrant that question. reserve is there to pay out what was payed in. can't pay for server from reserve. ascii's question is not pointed, he's never seen bitbet's paperwork and is surprised that a business can run without own assets.	[15:11]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93550 @ 0.00043262 = 40.4716 BTC [+] {2}	[15:12]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> nubbins`: or was the idea << or possibly the system that worked well for s.dice was simply carried forward, with not enough thought given to the matter. "hey, it's also gambling".	[15:16]
solrodar	well obviously the whole 0-asset thing was always an accounting fiction	[15:16]
mircea_popescu	dunno, and the people involved had not the foresight to leave us detailed records of how that logic went.	[15:17]
solrodar	it's very easy to enumerate bitbet's assets and liabilities, as mp has done	[15:17]
solrodar	but were there ever any reserves, or was that audit a misunderstanding?	[15:18]
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phf	seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.	[15:19]
mircea_popescu	the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.	[15:19]
solrodar	makes sense	[15:19]
mircea_popescu	phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.	[15:20]
mircea_popescu	the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.	[15:20]
mircea_popescu	so he rather cavallierly offered to continue eating the server while i continue eating the admin.	[15:21]
phf	ah, i see	[15:21]
mircea_popescu	but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance	[15:21]
mircea_popescu	50 bux or something, i don't recall exactly.	[15:21]
solrodar	your expenses meaning your time?	[15:21]
mircea_popescu	solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.	[15:22]
phf	so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket	[15:22]
mircea_popescu	there's of course also the cost of handling bitcoin payments, which is very VERY far from "free", irrespective what the "big blocks" derps think.	[15:22]
mircea_popescu	but currently, the actual bitcoin network fee doesn't even ammount to 1% of the actual cost of interacting with this sprawling pile of shit.	[15:22]
mircea_popescu	now, one could say "the same is true of fiat banking", and BY AND LARGE THEY WOULD BE RIGHT. see for instance	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/time-for-europe-to-repeal-the-us-backed-aml-crap/	[15:24]
assbot	Time for Europe to repeal the US-backed AML crap. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J3esew )	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	that unnamed business, for instance, sustained a 600k euro cost of doing business with fiat banking.	[15:24]
mircea_popescu	that was also unpredictable bla bla. and i'm sure the shareholders would very much like management to insulate them from it. if only.	[15:25]
solrodar	so you're saying that bitbet hasn't really been profitable in a long time, but you kept it running for entertainment value?	[15:25]
phf	solrodar: and to finish the thought, you "want" audit to ensure that bitbet holds all the bitcoin for open debts, rather then, say, having it all transfered into kako's or mp's coffers. that's the "reserve" although of course a joking misnomer.	[15:25]
mircea_popescu	phf there's no guarantee offered or even contemplated that bitcoin is not fungible.	[15:26]
mircea_popescu	so in this sense, bitbet's coffers ARE mp's coffers, and no separation is to be had.	[15:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26302 @ 0.0004313 = 11.3441 BTC [-] {2}	[15:28]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<< the problem with the democrat's mind is that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking this fantasy of a "silent electorate" to propel him through a life without labour.	[15:28]
mircea_popescu	it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.	[15:29]
phf	i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate	[15:29]
mircea_popescu	hola mats	[15:30]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44950 @ 0.00043125 = 19.3847 BTC [-] {2}	[15:30]
mircea_popescu	phf in general it'd be helpful if other avenues were found from this sort of situation. in any case it'd be good for bitcoin.	[15:30]
mircea_popescu	but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.	[15:31]
solrodar	speaking of proceeds, how much of the bitbet IPO was ever completed?	[15:33]
mircea_popescu	iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.	[15:35]
mats	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431729 << sure.	[15:35]
assbot	Logged on 13-03-2016 21:30:36; pete_dushenski: last one was nigh on two years ago now : http://www.contravex.com/2014/04/07/results-of-first-bitbet-audit-april-7-2014/	[15:35]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00042716 = 5.1259 BTC [-] {2}	[15:37]
BingoBoingo	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431962 << ty	[15:37]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 12:19:57; mircea_popescu: ahaha ok pretty good.	[15:37]
jurov	mats: "sure" means you apply?	[15:38]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.	[15:38]
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mircea_popescu	so i guess... you are now cured of it ?	[15:38]
mats	jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver	[15:39]
mircea_popescu	why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?	[15:39]
phf	so bitbet has 750.4 in open bets, 742.9 to pay out, 7.5 goes to shareholders/mp?	[15:45]
mircea_popescu	well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve the bets.	[15:45]
mircea_popescu	but roughly speaking sounds about right.	[15:45]
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mircea_popescu	if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	but as it is, doesn't seem a workable plan.	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	who knows, maybe in some years or whatever.	[15:48]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis.	[15:48]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 18:39:24; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform funny how this goes.	[15:48]
mircea_popescu	it just happens to be exactly what you said.	[15:48]
phf	so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call there, pay outs go to original addresses, assets are auctioned and the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call there	[15:49]
asciilifeform	well if mircea_popescu demonstrated the logic whereby miner collusion is a necessary hypothesis, vs sybils alone, i must have slept through it ?	[15:49]
asciilifeform	the 'is not stable' thing is pure handwaving.	[15:49]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform did you not say the words "mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz" ?	[15:50]
*	assbot gives voice to PeterL	[15:50]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this is synthesis from earlier threads where you stated that yes, there are sybils, but your octopus of mpb connecting to various trusted folks, incl. over crypted links, is not sybilable	[15:50]
mircea_popescu	do they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare there's no relay network other than the miner's own" ?	[15:51]
mircea_popescu	if not, then in what way ?	[15:51]
PeterL	phf proceeds from assets should be split between shareholders, mp, kako	[15:51]
phf	PeterL: that is what i said	[15:51]
mircea_popescu	stat rosa pristina, my dear alf.	[15:51]
asciilifeform	there is a network, consisting, apparently, mostly of sybil.	[15:51]
PeterL	oh, looked like you left out shareholders on that part	[15:51]
asciilifeform	to which the miners connect. and likewise everyone else.	[15:52]
mircea_popescu	this model of (perceptible relay) + (imperceptible miners) is nonsense of the ilk of meta-nsa-in-the-sky.	[15:52]
thestringpuller	interesting how much chaos relay policies cause, whereas some want to completely change consensus rules	[15:52]
asciilifeform	at no point did i state a belief in 'imperceptible miners', just observing that the miner collusion is not a necessary hypothesis re the bbet event.	[15:53]
mircea_popescu	well so which is it.	[15:53]
asciilifeform	sybils putting transactions in their pocket and lying about the contents of their mempool, works.	[15:53]
mircea_popescu	can i (one) or can't i (one) ?	[15:53]
asciilifeform	waiwut	[15:53]
asciilifeform	can what?	[15:53]
phf	PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders	[15:53]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform can i relay directly to miners, or can't i ?	[15:54]
mircea_popescu	phf it wasn't ?!	[15:54]
PeterL	phf, to me the listing seems to say during liquidation shareholders get an even share?	[15:54]
solrodar	you just said so yourself	[15:54]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the bbet event suggested that there was at least one layer of prb between mircea_popescu and the miners.	[15:54]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform as a possible explanation.	[15:55]
phf	mircea_popescu: not from what you just said about you and kako paying out of the pocket	[15:55]
mircea_popescu	phf whatever people do with their private funds is their problem, the contract still says the shareholders get it.	[15:55]
asciilifeform	but if mircea_popescu signed a statement that he transmits directly to the miners, and has no doubt that this is so, because he ran the cable himself, i will believe...	[15:55]
phf	well then	[15:55]
phf	PeterL: you're correct	[15:56]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform if i didn't think so, the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".	[15:56]
BingoBoingo	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432438 << Generally how the bet goes. blood taken over contest being a farce generally doesn't make it to bettors.	[15:56]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 17:25:50; asciilifeform: is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?	[15:56]
mats	http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results	[15:56]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 18:40:42; mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?	[15:56]
mircea_popescu	mats the question under audit's not that ; not that it would prevent you from doing whatever.	[15:57]
mats	also not a big fan of handling other people's money	[15:57]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it is not actually my business how mircea_popescu transmits his tx, but since he chose to present the bbet matter in the tmsr public forum, rather than limiting it to folks 'whose business it is', i will say, that the mpb (client and network both) is a serious ?????? in the story. i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations.	[15:58]
asciilifeform	the 'lighter weight', parsimonious hypothesis is that mpb-net was bamboozled by sybils. rather than miners.	[16:00]
asciilifeform	and that whichever meatspace folk with whom he had peering arrangements, a) bamboozled him and/or b) were in turn bamboozled by their peers.	[16:01]
asciilifeform	i, for instance, will not deal with han chinese unless the deal is strictly cash&carry basis and involves no ongoing trust arrangement.	[16:02]
asciilifeform	learned this from al schwartz, and eminently confirmed in years since.	[16:02]
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asciilifeform	perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.	[16:05]
PeterL	I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?	[16:07]
asciilifeform	PeterL: poor example, the extant miners somehow agreed not to mine high-S	[16:07]
asciilifeform	(note, the protocol PERMITS a block with high-S tx. hence my suggestion to build a high-S-only pool.)	[16:08]
asciilifeform	the high-S thing was the most serious, imho, warning bell that there ~is~ such a thing as miner collusion	[16:08]
asciilifeform	it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.	[16:08]
PeterL	aha, so the high-S thing only proves the miners don't like it, you would need to find something the miners allow but prb does not	[16:08]
asciilifeform	game-theoretically.	[16:08]
asciilifeform	PeterL: correct.	[16:08]
asciilifeform	there is not, reliably, such a thing.	[16:09]
asciilifeform	no-fee tx is only ~approximately~ this.	[16:09]
PeterL	any miner who wants some extra fee-fees just has to sweep up all high-S txn?	[16:09]
asciilifeform	PeterL: aha.	[16:09]
asciilifeform	the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.	[16:09]
asciilifeform	as i understand it.	[16:09]
PeterL	the fact that 0-fee txn eventually got mined shows that mp is not completely isolated from miners by prb?	[16:10]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial, but for some reason it did not alarm him that miners could agree on something which theoretically leads to dropping PERFECTLY VALID TX on the floor ?!	[16:10]
asciilifeform	PeterL: well the contention is that it was fired maliciously	[16:11]
asciilifeform	i.e. that someone chose to make a particular exception from ordinary prb rules in order to ding bbet.	[16:11]
asciilifeform	as i understand it.	[16:12]
PeterL	I still don't see the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"	[16:12]
PeterL	as was described previously	[16:12]
asciilifeform	fwiw, i actually thought that mircea_popescu & kakobrekla's original proposed solution was spiffy	[16:12]
PeterL	which solution?	[16:13]
asciilifeform	which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you'	[16:13]
asciilifeform	rather than 'wait for the miners'	[16:13]
PeterL	but that does not stop doublespends?	[16:13]
asciilifeform	it is the job of the payer to sign a valid tx, from valid inputs.	[16:13]
asciilifeform	if he doublespends, you negrate him and move on.	[16:13]
asciilifeform	a la how we deal with folks who kite cheques.	[16:13]
asciilifeform	this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins.	[16:14]
asciilifeform	blockchain is ~nice~ but its correct operation is not guaranteed.	[16:14]
PeterL	although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid the day the transaction was created, rather than the day it goes into block	[16:14]
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PeterL	and then payment was not late just because it was a long time getting into block	[16:14]
PeterL	but would bitbet also extend such to their customers? they seem to be pretty firm about if it is not in the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation to shareholders	[16:15]
asciilifeform	PeterL: this must be so because if this were not so, we have buluceala.	[16:16]
asciilifeform	ergo it must be so.	[16:16]
asciilifeform	!s buluceala	[16:16]
assbot	8 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala	[16:16]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..?	[16:17]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.	[16:17]
solrodar	they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count	[16:18]
asciilifeform	!s from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit	[16:18]
assbot	1 results for 'from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+tmsr+deficit	[16:18]
asciilifeform	!s from:mircea_popescu deficit	[16:19]
assbot	12 results for 'from:mircea_popescu deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+deficit	[16:19]
phf	PeterL: i think counterparty problem is asymmetrical. that's your collateral is higher then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership	[16:19]
phf	*that's why	[16:19]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-07-2015#1185942 and further: core devs made the change in 'prb', miners ate it without thinking twice for the benefits visible on the surface. secondly, block reward is too high for / tx fees too low to expect any heavy optimizations for maximizing fees beyond most simplistic or default	[16:20]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.	[16:20]
assbot	Logged on 03-07-2015 21:25:49; kakobrekla: but 'miners' are zombies, will eat whatever comes their way and cant count on them thinking about anything	[16:20]
kakobrekla	even further, when chinese miners were asked about blocksize it was "we dunno, it should be up to core devs, they know what is best"	[16:21]
PeterL	Or it can be viewed in terms of WoT, random guy off the street has no trust from bitbet that he won't doublespend, bitbet has been holding the coins and thus has implicit trust from guy that he will get paid eventually	[16:21]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: iirc it is specifically mircea_popescu's position that not-this.	[16:22]
asciilifeform	that is, that miners do not prb and are not affected by prbism.	[16:22]
asciilifeform	he can correct me if this is not a valid summary, when he wakes up.	[16:22]
kakobrekla	how do we say, "not enough lsd" is it ?	[16:22]
asciilifeform	certainly i lack the lsd to process the sheer number of my-intel-told-me-so-and-you-will-take-it-on-faith-because-dirigible-and-fuckyou	[16:23]
kakobrekla	aha.	[16:23]
phf	PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure	[16:24]
kakobrekla	PeterL re the solution i proposed shortly after the disaster, see footnote for explanation http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#footnote_3_65290	[16:26]
assbot	The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )	[16:26]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: my current understanding, based not only on this incident but others, is that he has pretty good (world class?) humint, but atrocious sigint	[16:27]
asciilifeform	and, like most folks direly missing a tool, come to believe that 'i don't need screwdriver, hammer's claw in expert hands is always just as good or better'	[16:28]
asciilifeform	and yes, i fully grasp why he loathes to deal with the sort of folks who do sigint.	[16:28]
mircea_popescu	i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations. << the problem here is that complete transparency can not be achieved for practical reasons. if it could have been, have no doubt i would have preferred to this "under my seal" report avenue.	[16:28]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i believe it.	[16:28]
asciilifeform	but i will note that the story ends up having some of the unpleasant flavour of the usg secret court trials with secret evidence, resultingly.	[16:29]
asciilifeform	perhaps unavoidably. but it does.	[16:29]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial << wasn't that the other one ?	[16:30]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it melded into one in your head with the DER encoding thing.	[16:30]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you' << o no fucking way jesus christ.	[16:30]
mircea_popescu	this is horrible.	[16:30]
asciilifeform	(and not only mircea_popescu , but i think many folks swallowed them in one pill)	[16:30]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it is horrible ! but was the pill suggested in the trilema bbet article.	[16:31]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins. << yeah, and guess why.	[16:31]
asciilifeform	it is not a replacement for working bitcoin. but a pill to wake folks up to the fact of the broken one.	[16:31]
asciilifeform	so that wrath can fall on the correct heads.	[16:32]
kakobrekla	aha	[16:32]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ?	[16:33]
mircea_popescu	or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?	[16:33]
kakobrekla	anyway, you cant really make the horse drink water	[16:33]
mircea_popescu	obviously enumerable, impossible to evaluate. and incidentally - how many fucking weekedns omfg!	[16:33]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: my offer to actually pay what that thing costs, stands.	[16:34]
mircea_popescu	solrodar> they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count << this is correct. but he's welcome to consider counterfactuals also. just - shouldn't expect me to present factuals for counterfactuals, should write his own story himself!	[16:34]
mircea_popescu	"it was in the red whatever asciilifeform would take to babysit 4 years of bitbet and resolve 1.2k bets."	[16:34]
asciilifeform	now, i cannot pay what these fine massages from mircea_popescu costs. but if he were not fond of giving them for free, i would have to forgo the massages.	[16:35]
mircea_popescu	and do consider that rarely do you see one that doesn't run into this sort of thing : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424398 ; http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=12-03-2016#1431058 ETC	[16:36]
assbot	Logged on 07-03-2016 03:18:27; mircea_popescu: in more practical news - jurov here's one for you. https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/ is to be resolved. problem is the res source gives vote % and not a word re seats, and the bet is re seats.	[16:36]
assbot	Logged on 12-03-2016 03:45:55; mircea_popescu: there's a graph, it doesn't touch 1bn.	[16:36]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44250 @ 0.00042716 = 18.9018 BTC [-]	[16:36]
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mircea_popescu	asciilifeform your offer to pay what the thing costs is going to cost us A FUCKING FORTUNE down the road. you understand this ?	[16:36]
mircea_popescu	stop adding indiscipline to the fucking pile.	[16:36]
mircea_popescu	it's neither becoming of your other talents nor any kind of service to the republic.	[16:37]
asciilifeform	mmok	[16:37]
phf	ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.	[16:37]
mircea_popescu	no problem.	[16:38]
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phf	i think it's entirely normal for tmsr operation to not have a bedrock, since we've just spent a year exploring just how rotten bedrock is. hosting, "personal affairs", linguistic and architectural choices, what have you.	[16:40]
phf	*"year"	[16:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104870 @ 0.00042765 = 44.8477 BTC [+] {2}	[16:41]
mircea_popescu	anyway, ima go indulge in sins of the flesh. bbl.	[16:43]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94145 @ 0.00042716 = 40.215 BTC [-] {2}	[16:52]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97433 @ 0.00042665 = 41.5698 BTC [-] {5}	[16:58]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28962 @ 0.00042657 = 12.3543 BTC [-] {2}	[17:07]
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jurov	mircea_popescu: it does show seats, but in some HTML5 presentation	[17:13]
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jurov	https://volbysr.sk/en/data03.html damn the thing stopped working	[17:15]
assbot	The Election to the National Council of the Slovak Republic 2016 - Final Results ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSD2F5 )	[17:15]
jurov	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_parliamentary_election,_2016#Results you can use this, for example	[17:16]
assbot	Slovak parliamentary election, 2016 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSDaEI )	[17:17]
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jurov	from today's log i have learned that it's important to report all expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin	[17:28]
jurov	deficits go only so far	[17:29]
asciilifeform	jurov: the discussion reminds me of those divorces where the husband/wife end up throwing post-facto 'expenses' at each other for who took out the trash etc	[17:30]
phf	what? the discussion was started by me, to clarify my own understanding, at no point did either side threw expenses at each other. are we even reading same log?	[17:32]
asciilifeform	phf: they never quite got to this point	[17:32]
jurov	yes it was not explicit	[17:32]
asciilifeform	the bbet divorce, as i understand, stopped quite deliberately short of this	[17:32]
asciilifeform	amicable separation, if you will.	[17:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24238 @ 0.00042584 = 10.3215 BTC [-]	[17:33]
jurov	and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner	[17:34]
asciilifeform	jurov: but what if the wife had charged market rate for the sexx!111	[17:34]
asciilifeform	would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?	[17:34]
jurov	asciilifeform: i don't see anything like that in this case	[17:35]
jurov	it's not about "who took out the trash" but about "who paid the garbage man"	[17:36]
asciilifeform	jurov: well, we have http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 and http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432662	[17:36]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.	[17:36]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the acc	[17:36]
asciilifeform	that is, as i understand, mircea_popescu's 'bbet consumed megatonnes of grade-A mptronium which i supplied at no cost, and now people expect be to also put in coin for phree?!'	[17:37]
asciilifeform	*me	[17:38]
phf	that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works	[17:38]
trinque	because http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432489	[17:39]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.	[17:39]
jurov	yes, i understand it too. i only don't understand the "can't be valued" part.	[17:39]
jurov	if it was one-time development paid from the IPO, then fine	[17:39]
jurov	but the maintenance on ongoing basis, needs a prolly a better agreement	[17:40]
asciilifeform	jurov: do you recall that thread where i asked mircea_popescu to tally up what, e.g., 'v' was worth to him, in money ?	[17:42]
asciilifeform	he - correctly - said that i may as well be smoking crack	[17:43]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46209 @ 0.00042728 = 19.7442 BTC [-]	[17:43]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=12-09-2015#1271492 << mega-obligatory-naggum	[17:43]
assbot	Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that peopl	[17:43]
jurov	you see 'v' is exactly the one-time thing. time spent by resolving bets, managing the wallet and such is much easier to quantify	[17:44]
asciilifeform	jurov: but neither was a work-for-hire cash'n'carry thing	[17:44]
asciilifeform	which is the point	[17:44]
asciilifeform	you can't price a thing that cannot be in any practical way traded	[17:44]
trinque	^	[17:44]
asciilifeform	just like it is meaningless to discuss the weight of a planet	[17:44]
trinque	not just "cannot" but more specifically "has never been"	[17:45]
asciilifeform	has not because cannot.	[17:45]
asciilifeform	categorically.	[17:45]
trinque	there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically	[17:46]
asciilifeform	trinque: that was pointedly NOT the subject	[17:46]
asciilifeform	the subject was the ORIGINAL.	[17:46]
asciilifeform	specifically.	[17:47]
asciilifeform	see thread.	[17:47]
trinque	I was there for the original thread.	[17:47]
asciilifeform	then see again.	[17:47]
jurov	well, that "someone" whose work "cannot be traded" still has to eat	[17:47]
jurov	where does that come from?	[17:47]
asciilifeform	jurov: not in mircea_popescu's planet !	[17:47]
trinque	asciilifeform: your time lacks a price because nobody bought it	[17:47]
asciilifeform	there it comes from the 10,001 koku of rice a true man collects from his serfs	[17:47]
asciilifeform	or somethinglikethat	[17:47]
trinque	it is not categorically impossible to buy your time	[17:47]
phf	there's an utter lack of compartmentalization going on here. the way bitbet is structured is explicit in the contract. only aspect of the operation that's under consideration is "recieve bets, take percentage, pay out", because that's all that shareholders are party to. everything else is between kako and mp and that aspect worked for them. at no point was this arrangement publicly ~questioned~ by any party involved. i spelled it out in	[17:47]
phf	the logs, some people had a conversation about it, that is all.	[17:47]
trinque	but shout some more about the infinite value of yourself	[17:48]
asciilifeform	trinque: it was more of 0 than an inf	[17:48]
asciilifeform	see thread.	[17:48]
asciilifeform	i think mircea_popescu was the one with the +inf.	[17:48]
asciilifeform	trinque: and it is not impossible to buy my time, just that it is not ~practical~ for anyone i consider worthwhile. because it is sold only in very large parcels, and is not cheap. but this is beside the point.	[17:49]
jurov	phf indeed, assigning the 17btc to shareholders is failure of the compartmentalization	[17:50]
trinque	it is entirely my point that it is a question of practicality and not categorical unpossibleness	[17:50]
asciilifeform	trinque: the thread concerned an invention, rather than a certain amount of my time.	[17:50]
asciilifeform	'v' did not actually take very long to write.	[17:50]
asciilifeform	but then you also do not get another thing of similar interest by buying x hours of asciilifeform .	[17:51]
phf	jurov: that's a pointless rim shot, that is representative of the level of discourse so far.	[17:51]
trinque	sounds rather like prospecting; you may find nothing, may find something immensely valuable	[17:51]
jurov	phf, so my conclusion that such compartmentalization is prone to problems, wouls be pointless rimshot too?	[17:52]
asciilifeform	trinque: the actual market value of my prospecting is, empirically, ~0.	[17:52]
phf	jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question	[17:52]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain	[17:52]
asciilifeform	so either trinque has to accept that v is demonstrably worthless, or to buy into mircea_popescu's 'non-quantifiable' category, or the like.	[17:52]
phf	jurov: 17 btc issue is possibly covered by agreement, possibly not, requires investigation. question of who was paying for server is irrelevant to the ~issue~, not even mentioned anywhere in corporate paperwork, and also produced zero issues so far that were publicly discussed	[17:54]
jurov	phf but how can the judge decide without precedent? was the problem of appropriate expenses for zerofee corporations put into law or any such test?	[17:54]
asciilifeform	do 0asset corps even exist in meatspace ?	[17:55]
asciilifeform	where ?	[17:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 283400 @ 0.00042682 = 120.9608 BTC [-] {4}	[17:57]
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phf	jurov: that second question is a lot more relevant to the issue then a lot of things that's been said so far	[17:58]
phf	jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on	[17:59]
jurov	for me that question boils down to judge deciding if mircea_popescu acted in good faith or not acc. to agreement.. which is likely not a good thing	[18:00]
jurov	for one person to decide centrally	[18:00]
phf	jurov: there's no "centrally"	[18:01]
asciilifeform	jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf	[18:01]
phf	instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?	[18:02]
jurov	but i already did that short of negrating him, why would i need a judge?	[18:02]
asciilifeform	phf: sadly this is prolly how it will go. at least no mexican ice pick is yet involved.	[18:02]
jurov	phf also judge will prevent the discussion how?	[18:03]
jurov	cmon, i genuinely want to learn what are you onto	[18:03]
phf	i'm a slow thinker, so i'm taking my time	[18:05]
*	mats dips chicken tender into bbq sauce	[18:07]
BingoBoingo	!b 3	[18:07]
assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/36RHJM0.txt )	[18:07]
jurov	while bitbet is frozen, there's not going to be any end to the discussion, i am afraid.	[18:08]
jurov	phf, maybe if you apply for the receiver and do it ;)	[18:09]
asciilifeform	also it is not clear to me what the folks in the dispute actuall want.	[18:13]
asciilifeform	a restarted bbet ?	[18:13]
asciilifeform	for mircea_popescu to admit that he elbowed a button and crashed the tank ?	[18:13]
asciilifeform	(let's say he does - what good does this do ?)	[18:13]
*	BingoBoingo may be up for continuing to bet on a restarted BBET depending on who acquires it	[18:14]
*	BingoBoingo though is unlikely to on his own carry a BitBet on his Betting volume	[18:15]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.	[18:15]
BingoBoingo	yes	[18:15]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58500 @ 0.00042572 = 24.9046 BTC [-] {2}	[18:16]
asciilifeform	given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit.	[18:16]
jurov	i did want bbet restarted, but since today i realized the "can't be valued" part, this is not feasible	[18:16]
jurov	so, best to wind it down	[18:16]
asciilifeform	jurov: this is one of the caveats of the business-cum-guerilla-warfare-battalion animal	[18:17]
BingoBoingo	Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.	[18:17]
asciilifeform	a very heavy dose of can't-be-valued	[18:17]
asciilifeform	but if you stick solely to can-be-valueds, you end up selling pies in the street.	[18:17]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: anything can be sold to scammers/spammers.	[18:18]
asciilifeform	but why would you touch it after that !	[18:18]
jurov	asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies	[18:18]
jurov	bitbet was not basic research peroject, but a business	[18:18]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: And that is the problem. Selling to nobies may be the right move to recover stakeholder value, but makes post-sale venture unattractive.	[18:19]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: unattractive is a bit of an understatement.	[18:19]
asciilifeform	utterly radioactive.	[18:19]
asciilifeform	i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.	[18:19]
asciilifeform	ever.	[18:19]
asciilifeform	just like i won't fuck a hole in a rusty truck on some godforsaken junkyard lot.	[18:20]
asciilifeform	it is a ludicrous very idea.	[18:20]
asciilifeform	bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none.	[18:21]
jurov	but that boils down exactly to it -- when the new owner goes to assing more value to reddit crowds than b-a wot	[18:22]
jurov	*assign	[18:22]
asciilifeform	i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.	[18:23]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17165 @ 0.00042894 = 7.3628 BTC [+] {2}	[18:23]
asciilifeform	though i have nfi, you'd have to ask him, to be sure.	[18:23]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57950 @ 0.00042558 = 24.6624 BTC [-] {5}	[18:24]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << this is one of those 3rd rails. there is ~no money actually circulating in the tmsr castle walls.	[18:24]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies	[18:24]
jurov	and you know that how?	[18:24]
asciilifeform	because we're all, you see, lordz, and these don't stoop to ever actually paying for anything, they promise one another kokus of rice per year from their serfs if it must come down to it.	[18:24]
phf	jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.	[18:25]
asciilifeform	jurov: very clearly i do not know it for certain, but inferring from the bbet event.	[18:25]
asciilifeform	and from the overall ill health of bbet	[18:25]
jurov	alternatively, there is something but bitbet failed to extract	[18:28]
asciilifeform	so who then extracted ?	[18:29]
asciilifeform	mpoe, trading solely with itself ?!	[18:29]
jurov	i managed to get some crumbs	[18:29]
jurov	but otherwise, that's open question for me, too.	[18:30]
asciilifeform	i guess this is none of our stinking serf business eh	[18:31]
asciilifeform	who the ~real~ lordz trade with	[18:31]
asciilifeform	but i will point out, i see this entire story (the bbet meltdown) though 'shoemaker' eyes, and i never had any idea, whether jurov and kako were part of mircea_popescu's actual inner circle, i.e. folks who actually move serious coin around, privy to how mpb works, physically met his intelligence agents, etc. or not.	[18:35]
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asciilifeform	i don't generally ask such questions because i am not dumb enough to expect answer.	[18:35]
jurov	lol i should expect this.	[18:36]
jurov	kakobrekla: should we reveal meta-bitcoin-assets?	[18:37]
asciilifeform	though i admit that i always thought meta-assets consisted wholly (other than mp) of pretty gurlz	[18:37]
jurov	Rest assured he keeps his doings tight, no idea about the girls.	[18:39]
davout	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 <<< why is that ?	[18:40]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.	[18:40]
asciilifeform	but more to earth, what i meant was the set of 'high-powered types' he hangs out with when he is not, in his own words, 'tending the daycare'	[18:41]
phf	fwiw since january 2013 bitbet had ~~301.214btc profit	[18:41]
asciilifeform	mircea_popescu has on some occasions mentioned actually having phriends in meatspace.	[18:41]
asciilifeform	anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.	[18:43]
asciilifeform	fwiw.	[18:43]
davout	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"	[18:44]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.	[18:44]
asciilifeform	but rather consists of titanic numbers moving on mpex.	[18:44]
asciilifeform	this bothered me in 2013 ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1108 ) but does not bother me today, largely because my giving-a-shit muscle wore out.	[18:44]
assbot	Loper OS » A Review of MPEx, the Bitcoin Stock Exchange. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj4Xdf )	[18:44]
asciilifeform	and because i consider it possible for tmsr to develop into something like a planetoid economy.	[18:45]
asciilifeform	but this is a future thing.	[18:45]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432847 << you just described a cartel, davout .	[18:46]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"	[18:46]
asciilifeform	the 'everyone else' who 'will ignore'	[18:46]
asciilifeform	is what, exactly ?	[18:46]
phf	so zero assets is obviously an oversight, stakeholders were riding that one comfortably until the first snafu	[18:46]
asciilifeform	phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.	[18:47]
phf	right	[18:47]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56689 @ 0.00042637 = 24.1705 BTC [+] {2}	[18:49]
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phf	http://glyf.org/tmp/bbet.png, there's an insignificant downward trend, but payouts are consistent despite bitcoin fluctuations	[18:52]
assbot	404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj5Br5 )	[18:52]
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jurov	phf well.. such magnitude of payouts is fine for coinbr where i'm alone.. not for 2 owners, shareholders, referees,...	[18:55]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 140155 @ 0.00042675 = 59.8111 BTC [+]	[19:01]
BingoBoingo	https://archive.is/euihl	[19:01]
assbot	Reject the Ham = All Hell breaks loose : fatpeoplestories ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj6dNA )	[19:01]
BingoBoingo	!up humanoidity	[19:01]
*	assbot gives voice to humanoidity	[19:02]
humanoidity	bingo : Thx	[19:03]
humanoidity	would anyone be kind enough to point to a summary of the concerns with bitbet.us ?	[19:05]
jurov	humanoidity: have you seen http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/?	[19:06]
assbot	The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )	[19:06]
phf	jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.	[19:06]
BingoBoingo	humanoidity: At this point everyone really just has to go through the whole thing and excercise summarizing it for themselves	[19:07]
humanoidity	jurov : reading now. thx for pointer.	[19:07]
humanoidity	Bingo: ack	[19:07]
phf	so about $25 a bet pardon my fiat, ignoring hosting	[19:08]
jurov	phf so you think it can go on this way, like, another 3 years?	[19:10]
phf	is that a serious question?	[19:11]
jurov	why not? is $25 a bet before expenses worth it?	[19:12]
jurov	and this $25 goes to whom? all owners together?	[19:13]
phf	no that's $25 to one owner	[19:14]
phf	and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?	[19:17]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.00042592 = 34.9254 BTC [-] {4}	[19:19]
phf	but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.	[19:21]
jurov	in any case, thanks for the analysis. you're welcome to put it together as qntra post-mortem, and hopefully get more than $25	[19:21]
humanoidity	Is the 17 BTC the operational for this month, or is it the cash balance for the whole thing ?	[19:22]
jurov	humanoidity: neither	[19:23]
phf	humanoidity: way things stood before bankruptcy, 17btc is what the shareholders would have had to eat for the next n months before getting profits again	[19:23]
humanoidity	Also, I'd be interested to know how much bet money is currently parked at bitbet, and how safe these are	[19:23]
shinohai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432885	[19:23]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.	[19:23]
jurov	humanoidity: this is tbd	[19:24]
humanoidity	phf : thx for explanation, this answers my question.	[19:24]
jurov	they are safe but subject to liquidation, about which i have no idea	[19:25]
humanoidity	jurov: Understood. But it also means payout for resolved bets are frozen, I guess. :(	[19:25]
phf	humanoidity: safety interpretation is between you and your counterparties. 750.4btc, as of right now all in their corresponding addresses	[19:25]
humanoidity	phf : gotcha. So there's quite a bit of cash parked in there atm, and 17btc doesn't look like at huge amount to build back. Why on earth was mp's loan offer rejected ?	[19:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28150 @ 0.00042462 = 11.9531 BTC [-] {4}	[19:27]
jurov	humanoidity: where do you see a loan?	[19:27]
jurov	it was presented as business expense to be carried by shareholders' future profits	[19:28]
humanoidity	jurov: I read "Nevertheless, I am floating its negative cash balance free of charge, with a view of being defrayed from future profits.". I may not be using the accurate terminology here, but it sounds like a loan.	[19:29]
jurov	ok, i misunderstaood you	[19:31]
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jurov	!up humanoidity	[19:32]
*	assbot gives voice to humanoidity	[19:32]
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assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79052 @ 0.00042317 = 33.4524 BTC [-] {4}	[19:37]
phf	so taking out outliers, shareholders would've had to eat it for about 5 months; question is, would've bitbet lasted that long, in which case pitchforking just cost shareholders profits	[19:37]
thestringpuller	phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight << since corporation doesn't hold any cash outside of "day to day operations" and all profit is distributed, dealing with credit is tricky. what if company needs to buy a foo-machine but is too expensive to book as a one time expense?	[19:38]
thestringpuller	does company get lent credit and just book the bill as an expense? it's probably justifiable if done in a way where shareholders still get to see ~some~ profit monthly, but company doesn't go bankrupt paying of credit.	[19:40]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45300 @ 0.0004228 = 19.1528 BTC [-] {2}	[19:43]
BingoBoingo	In happier news https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cc5WMCzXIAQxsfM.jpg	[19:44]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1UccOkl )	[19:44]
shinohai	lul wut	[19:46]
BingoBoingo	The Bahamas daughter has an ass	[19:47]
phf	thestringpuller: there's a precedent. an mpif credit was extended june 2014 and no dividends paid until credit was payed off july and august.	[19:48]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432883 << hour's pay in fiat is also stuck feeding obamitler, shameekas, lockheeds, and jamie dimon.	[19:51]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 22:18:12; phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?	[19:51]
phf	at how stable bitbet is with an occasional massive positive spike), unless, it's, like, a credit to buy an office in san francisco and pitch second round, who cares?	[19:51]
asciilifeform	and the dime left from the dollar, feeds you.	[19:51]
asciilifeform	this is what usaschwitz means.	[19:51]
BingoBoingo	Well this is why alfs are stuck in alf ghettos instead of regions where they'd have the possibility of surplus income.	[19:52]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: where would this possibility come from ?	[19:52]
asciilifeform	in cheapo regions, labourer is paid proportionately less.	[19:53]
asciilifeform	being a labourer sucks slightly less, or slightly more, between regions, but it sucks fundamentally for entirely fundamental reasons.	[19:54]
BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: It depends, but some less rebelious servile professions get pay that is more geographically flat. See Medical folk et al...	[19:54]
BingoBoingo	But so long as alf doesn't get to telecommute from Ohio, everything to rent bezzle	[19:54]
asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: most of'em squeeze out a fairly pathetic existence if you count pay PER HOUR OF ACTUAL SWEAT	[19:54]
asciilifeform	the pay of labourers is parasitized disproportionately by usg et al for the same reason wolf in the forest is covered in ticks	[19:57]
asciilifeform	he elementarily does not have the power to remove them.	[19:57]
asciilifeform	a mircea_popescu - can remove the ticks.	[19:57]
asciilifeform	from own back.	[19:57]
asciilifeform	in fact, does not even consider ticks as a thing, except when specially sitting down to think about it	[19:57]
BingoBoingo	I thought a mircea_popescu had gurlz to do that.	[19:58]
asciilifeform	a wolf, by and large, cannot even conceptualize the ticks	[19:58]
asciilifeform	just knows, i suspect, that he itches, but not why	[19:58]
mats	TIL msft's proprietary disasm lib incudes a superh disasm, assembler	[19:58]
asciilifeform	mats: superb how	[19:58]
asciilifeform	crashed only 1 time in 10, vs other microshits ? or what	[19:58]
mats	asciilifeform: 'SuperH'	[19:59]
asciilifeform	mats: ah	[19:59]
asciilifeform	l0l!	[19:59]
asciilifeform	best misread ever	[19:59]
asciilifeform	but this is not surprise, mats, a buncha 'pocket pc' items circa early 2000s ran on superH	[19:59]
kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432809 < you will feel warm and fuzzy inside if no receiver is found in time?	[19:59]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:20:43; asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.	[19:59]
mats	asciilifeform: but windows has never run on it	[19:59]
asciilifeform	mats: sure did	[19:59]
asciilifeform	winblowz ce.	[19:59]
asciilifeform	ran.	[19:59]
asciilifeform	i even have, in my collection, such a thing.	[20:00]
mats	news to me.	[20:00]
asciilifeform	mats: hp 'jornada' series.	[20:00]
asciilifeform	http://www.obsolete-tears.com/photos/HP-Jordana-540-series-ecran.jpg << here's one.	[20:00]
humanoidity	kakobrekla: for the sake of the newcomers here ... can you expand on why mp's 17BTC offer wasn't acceptable ?	[20:01]
assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1YT3OjR )	[20:01]
kakobrekla	whats next, he loses 170 btc next month and make bbet pay for it too?	[20:01]
humanoidity	kakobrekal: Ah, I guess the implied message is that you believe mp's to be at fault for the double payout ?	[20:02]
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asciilifeform	!up humanoidity	[20:02]
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kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420300, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420304 ....	[20:03]
assbot	Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.	[20:03]
assbot	Logged on 02-03-2016 17:17:04; mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.	[20:03]
humanoidity	kakobrekla: thx for context, this explains quite a bit, and I'm starting to understand what is making this situation sticky	[20:04]
asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432943 << i will feel nothing, it isn't my toy that was broken, nor was i involved in any way in its breakage afaik	[20:06]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 23:00:27; kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432809 < you will feel warm and fuzzy inside if no receiver is found in time?	[20:06]
asciilifeform	i have 2 bits of emotion kakobrekla	[20:07]
asciilifeform	3 on a good day.	[20:07]
kakobrekla	asciilifeform you took a side in alphago bet, neh?	[20:07]
asciilifeform	5 on human	[20:07]
asciilifeform	as announced the day of	[20:07]
kakobrekla	ah, so its a loss-loss for you.	[20:08]
asciilifeform	aha	[20:08]
kakobrekla	lucky you!	[20:08]
asciilifeform	i lost this one pretty solidly	[20:08]
asciilifeform	l0l	[20:08]
asciilifeform	my biggest spend of coin to date !111	[20:08]
asciilifeform	i think c3 was actually cheaper	[20:08]
phf	wait, i thought that most likely now ascii just gets his coin back?	[20:09]
asciilifeform	nope	[20:09]
asciilifeform	why would i get it back.	[20:09]
kakobrekla	it still can theoretically	[20:09]
asciilifeform	i lost it fair & square (afaik)	[20:09]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: not really, game was 3 of 5	[20:09]
asciilifeform	unless someone can actually ~prove~ google malfeasance, the bet resolves to a machine win	[20:09]
kakobrekla	its up to receiver to resolve the bets that can be resolved or plain refund all that is possible	[20:10]
phf	^	[20:10]
asciilifeform	it would seem like that one can be resolved in the entirely ordinary way	[20:10]
asciilifeform	but whatdoiknow.	[20:10]
humanoidity	kakobrekla: is there a path forward to unjam things for bitbet at this point ? I'm not I am fully groking this "receiver" business	[20:10]
kakobrekla	anyway ftr if it would be solely up to me, this mess would have been resolved in a few days tops.	[20:11]
kakobrekla	humanoidity no.	[20:11]
asciilifeform	kakobrekla: in a way i 'skipped school', did not lose coin in any of the major catastrophes of the dark ages	[20:11]
asciilifeform	(largely because i had none)	[20:11]
humanoidity	darn	[20:12]
humanoidity	I like this site a lot. Sorta sad to see it go pear-shaped for what seems like a fairly simple governance problem.	[20:13]
asciilifeform	i liked it too.	[20:13]
asciilifeform	it ~WORKED~	[20:13]
humanoidity	Also, I'm thinking ... 17/240 is 0.0229 which ain't much.	[20:15]
kakobrekla	240?	[20:15]
humanoidity	Sorry, 17/740 = 0.0229	[20:15]
phf	humanoidity: you're probably thinking 750, and that's outstanding bets, that's not directly related to bitbet assets	[20:17]
humanoidity	Yeah, 750. But what I mean is that spreading that 17BTC loss over the 740BTC outstanding bets might be a way out. The only liability will be the site's rep, and the damage won't be irreparable looks like	[20:19]
jurov	humanoidity: if you have good wot standing with kakobrekla and mircea, you can apply for receiver and do it	[20:20]
humanoidity	Whereas 750BTC of outstanding bets evaporating might upset folks a lot.	[20:21]
jurov	or convince someone to do it	[20:21]
humanoidity	jurov: first time on irc, don't even know what 'wot' is :)	[20:21]
jurov	http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets	[20:22]
assbot	first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73Z7o )	[20:22]
jurov	wot = web of trust	[20:22]
humanoidity	got it, thx. will read the noob page now :)	[20:22]
jurov	if you know someone in here http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/ you can ask them for help	[20:23]
assbot	WoT Overview - Btc Alpha ... ( http://bit.ly/231wU3S )	[20:23]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00042417 = 9.4166 BTC [+]	[20:24]
kakobrekla	anyway imho it would be best for everyone for this mess to be cleared by me and mp - however while im making myself available in full capacity it seems to me mp is unwilling	[20:25]
jurov	kakobrekla: several people asked of your coherent statement, did you at least say you're willing to work with the receiver?	[20:27]
kakobrekla	yes its somewhere in the log	[20:28]
humanoidity	kakobrekla: from a newcomer's pov, you guys seem to be fairly upset with one another, which - given what you built together is imo makes this impasse a bit of a waste	[20:28]
kakobrekla	jurov more specifically http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432278	[20:29]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 16:20:43; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.	[20:29]
humanoidity	kakobrekla : have you guys explored selling more bitbet shares ? Might be another way to recover those 17BTC, diluting shareholder value a little. And then let bygone etc... and focus on making sure the payout problem can't happen again.	[20:31]
jurov	humanoidity: the contract explicitly forbids dilution	[20:33]
*	assbot removes voice from humanoidity	[20:33]
jurov	!up humanoidity	[20:33]
*	assbot gives voice to humanoidity	[20:33]
kakobrekla	technical solution to the problem is coded but i dont think it will ever be used. for other solutions - it seems the ship has sailed	[20:33]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20900 @ 0.00042584 = 8.9001 BTC [+] {2}	[20:34]
phf	i take it the issue is not "where" the money comes from (because there's a valid existing venue that worked in the past for this particular usecase), the issue is that of trust, i.e. kako doesn't trust mp for future bitbet operations	[20:34]
humanoidity	jurov: ah, yes, the pgp signed contracts which can't ever be renegociated when external circumstances change. I hadn't realized that.	[20:35]
jurov	they can be renegotiated, if there was mutual will	[20:35]
humanoidity	phf: I see. Hence the "receiver" bizness. Sounds like a marriage counselor is what is needed here :)	[20:36]
kakobrekla	phf you cant have responsibility without liability; no skin in the game - no game. if nothing else, it creates a set of bad incentives. this is how fiat world works and we collectively despise that.	[20:37]
kakobrekla	if bankers are not punished by reality you can end up with the world blowing up	[20:40]
phf	right, so you're saying mp should've eaten the cost to prevent that sort of issues in the future	[20:40]
humanoidity	kakobrekla: what would you consider to be a fair outcome in this quagmire ?	[20:41]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60050 @ 0.00042674 = 25.6257 BTC [+] {2}	[20:41]
kakobrekla	eating the cost may not guarantee it happening in the future (the technical solution i made was suppose to do that) but it sure would help	[20:41]
kakobrekla	not happening*	[20:41]
humanoidity	kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?	[20:44]
kakobrekla	you dont need devs for that.	[20:45]
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humanoidity	kakobrekla: didn't imply you needed them, but getting other knowledgeable folks' opinion on a particular situation doesn't strike me as unreasonable.	[20:47]
humanoidity	Moreover, what bit you here might bite others.	[20:48]
jurov	humanoidity: it was discussed on qntra, even some devs joined	[20:48]
jurov	humanoidity: best if you read last week logs to not repeat everything	[20:49]
humanoidity	ack	[20:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41321 @ 0.00042584 = 17.5961 BTC [-]	[20:49]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43329 @ 0.00042584 = 18.4512 BTC [-]	[20:58]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45813 @ 0.00042487 = 19.4646 BTC [-] {2}	[20:59]
*	assbot removes voice from humanoidity	[21:03]
BingoBoingo	!up humanoidity	[21:03]
*	assbot gives voice to humanoidity	[21:03]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432692 << this is actually very true.	[21:16]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:29:33; jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report all expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin	[21:16]
mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> phf: they never quite got to this point << i dun think this was the case either intended or implied.	[21:17]
mircea_popescu	obviously anyone reading is free to color what they read any way that suits them, but still.	[21:17]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432701 << the big problem here is that in a nascent economy (and please remember that bitbet was born in 2012, not in 2015, and its primary function at the time was stuff like http://trilema.com/2013/the-positive-market-effects-of-the-delivery-bet/ ie help clear up an entirely INSANE space, which it did admirably well and which nobody credits today because hey, fuck us, n	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	obody's thanking anyone for giving up his spleen to MAKE UP the ground on which he walks - it's just ground, a given, forget about it) you want to credit rather than charge, so as to give things a chance.	[21:21]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:13; jurov: and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner	[21:21]
assbot	The positive market effects of the delivery bet. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzV3mo )	[21:21]
mircea_popescu	but yes, if you're curious, the reason i might blast at you when you go into a patented jurov tailspin while i'm simply bitchslapping him into oblivion is that you WERE here then, and your spleen is actually part of that same ground. and yes these things matter, at least to me.	[21:22]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93000 @ 0.00042675 = 39.6878 BTC [+]	[21:23]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432703 << i'm pretty sure there would have been, yes.	[21:25]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:40; asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?	[21:25]
mircea_popescu	this is the same kakobrekla, you recall, who went on a trip to check out a hungarian asicminer on a day's notice, also in these very logs. the sort of rationality of old people is not particularly relevant to the young - and same is true of bitcoin.	[21:26]
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jurov	apparently you intended bitbet as a tool to establish The Order in bitcoin, while kakobrekla unawares thought it's usual business	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	possibly.	[21:26]
mircea_popescu	it is eminently difficult to reconstruct what people thought years ago ; famously - one can't actually do this for oneself, which is how proust got to be famous.	[21:27]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432711 << i dunno why people figure i do all sorts of things myself, not that the idea isn't flattering. but no, i'm no shiva.	[21:38]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:39:47; phf: that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works	[21:38]
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mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432731 << this idea seems good in theory. in practice, this is exactly never happening. easier to understand why not, is to understand why there IS something categorically preventing a market in women ; like a supermarket where you go buy one. the ones that are above average have no incentive to participate - see the discussion about lemon laws and the death spiral except	[21:43]
mircea_popescu	in reverse.	[21:43]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:47:25; trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically	[21:43]
mircea_popescu	which is why the only time a market in women exists is when it's maintained by significant outside force.	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	the interests of that force will never align with your naive market theory, and so no, categorically, market in v's isn't happening.	[21:44]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432738 << this is not generally true. even if it were true - it'd also be the essence of oppression. think well about how a world would look where hunger drives coding, for instance. i dunno if you've ever experienced the classical street urchin of central asia thing, but anyway.	[21:46]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:48:11; jurov: well, that "someone" whose work "cannot be traded" still has to eat	[21:46]
mircea_popescu	or whatever, read the various bleeding heart reenaction about the fate of the proletarian in the pre-1900s.	[21:47]
mircea_popescu	"the jungle" and all that crud.	[21:47]
solrodar	hi again	[21:47]
solrodar	now that I see that kakobrekla has also agreed to liquidation, I am applying for the job of receiver	[21:47]
solrodar	obviously I'm not well known enough to be trusted with the site funds, so I have a proposal	[21:48]
solrodar	mircea_popescu would continue to hold them in trust, and agree to pay them out in accordance with my ajudication, unless that ajudication was rejected by (say) 10 people currently in assbot's L1	[21:49]
solrodar	whatever else he's been accused of, nobody's called him a thief	[21:49]
mircea_popescu	i'm sure somebody somewhere has, why not. anyway : what do you plan to do to maximize shareholder revenue from bitbet assets ?	[21:50]
solrodar	essentially what you suggested at http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#comment-116766 , with a few alterations	[21:51]
assbot	The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1phuhuR )	[21:51]
mircea_popescu	do you have any sort of particular assets that'd likely help ? prior experience in doing this sort of thing (selling online properties) ? connections or otherwise some power putting you above others in some way ?	[21:51]
solrodar	firstly, that I might deviate from the seniority indicated there	[21:53]
solrodar	and secondly, that in the interests of settling this before the end of the year, I might choose to refund some bets rather than waiting for them all to resolve	[21:53]
mircea_popescu	i don't think you take my meaning. have you for instance ever auctioned a domain name successfully ? are you well known in those circles ? anything ?	[21:54]
solrodar	I got your meaning, just catching up	[21:54]
solrodar	the answer is no	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	a ok, go on.	[21:54]
mircea_popescu	well, what do you contemplate setting as a fee and what sort of time interval do you see this taking roguhly speaking ?	[21:55]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17800 @ 0.00042487 = 7.5627 BTC [-] {2}	[21:56]
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solrodar	I would also provide a third-party verification that in my judgment the codebase for sale is complete and working	[21:57]
solrodar	for complete closure, 10 BTC, 2 months	[21:57]
mircea_popescu	ok, but in order for such a seal of approval to be worth something, you'd have to be known by someone neh ?	[21:57]
solrodar	asciilifeform inspected my previous work	[21:58]
*	DreadKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)	[21:58]
mircea_popescu	well good, but i don't think he's buying. at any rate, so what do you plan to do to actually get cash out of the goods ? list them for sale somewhere ? simply run an auction here ? details help.	[21:59]
mircea_popescu	a marketing plan's always a good idea.	[21:59]
*	jidan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[22:00]
solrodar	I haven't sold anything of this nature before, but I have managed a number of domain names including one I bought at auction	[22:01]
solrodar	so I am familar with that field	[22:01]
solrodar	I think an external auction would provide the best price for the domain name	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432744 << this is a complicated proposition. the traditional avenue of the dedicated tramp is to join a group, liberally fuck anyone but the alpha of that group, insist that the alpha marry her. this presses a very strict choice on the alpha that's not trivially resolved - if he kills her everyone else loses a fuckdoll ; if he marries her he's fucked, not only stuck with	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	a wife but stuck with one that actually owns him. third options aren't really very easily accessible. so - no, don't make that assumption, it'll run you to ruin.	[22:02]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:48:47; trinque: it is not categorically impossible to buy your time	[22:02]
mircea_popescu	solrodar ok but run say where ?	[22:02]
solrodar	for the codebase, potential buyers are likely to be fewer, so my initial thought would be to conduct the auction in #b-a with bidders solicited from forums likely to be interested	[22:03]
mircea_popescu	so you're going to try as a package first, then just the domain on a 2nd pass, and advertise this on forums - how many, which, do you have good standing accounts in any (which) or is this going to be just some drive-by spam thing ?	[22:04]
solrodar	yes, as a package first	[22:05]
mircea_popescu	anyway - i appreciate your offer to help, and i don't think it can be summarily dismissed. it has its obvious weaknesses which you may consider improving.	[22:06]
solrodar	my personal standing is irrelevant, as interested buyers are likely to already be familiar with the site	[22:07]
mircea_popescu	perhaps.	[22:07]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432755 << how did that go, "yes half hour of my time and a lifetime of learning the trade" or somesuch.	[22:08]
solrodar	the proceeds would be paid to you and added to the pool	[22:08]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:51:39; asciilifeform: 'v' did not actually take very long to write.	[22:08]
solrodar	I would suggest that the domain remains in kakobrekla's hands and temporarily pointed to an address under my control	[22:09]
mircea_popescu	i suppose the "what's the value of code" item is a very vague thing on the internet still huh.	[22:10]
*	DreadKnight (~DreadKnig@unaffiliated/dreadknight) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:10]
solrodar	much less than the value of a going concern with a reputation	[22:10]
solrodar	which is why I think it's still in both of your best interests to sort this out between you	[22:11]
solrodar	I liked bitbet, I'd be sorry to see it go	[22:11]
mircea_popescu	hey, i liked it too.	[22:12]
mircea_popescu	who was that guy anyway, famously told judge that "he can be born wherever he wants to!" ? painter, accused of passing off a "too shitty to be sold" painting, late us reverberation of the school wars.	[22:14]
shinohai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433115 /me is also sad, removing ads :/	[22:14]
assbot	Logged on 15-03-2016 01:12:32; solrodar: I liked bitbet, I'd be sorry to see it go	[22:14]
*	dbclk (~dbclk@190.213.220.121) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432761 << it's entirely unclear to me what you think this'd do. let's work an example. you sign up for one of those newfangled internet thingees. provider sells you it, you meet the girl of your dreams in australia, keep in daily email touch. provider hikes the rate. you... what, go to a judge, to order the provider to charge you less ? not something the judge can do - an	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	d if he tries, they'll disconnect your thing an hour a day. at which point what, you go to your congressman to sponsor a law making it illegal for provider to disconnect shitty users ? are we trying to rebuild the great nation of america or something ? would be cheaper to just go with the one extant.	[22:20]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 20:53:38; phf: jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question	[22:20]
mircea_popescu	a judge may decide what a contract means if there's dispute between the parties, which here is what the [judge] sindic aka receiver is going to do anyway. other than that - he can't order for "the world" to satisfy any party's perceived comfort, no matter how dressed up.	[22:21]
mircea_popescu	syndic*	[22:22]
mircea_popescu	i'm aware that they do these weird "can't throw X people off premises" in the us, but the excision of that sort of nonsense is no small part of what tmsr is all about.	[22:24]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432770 << obviously anyone's free to use the wot as they please (and yes, lack of homogenity is still its only defense against immediate explosive doom) but i can't see myself negrating someone for not agreeing with someone else. seems rather rich.	[22:26]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:00:41; phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on	[22:26]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30700 @ 0.00042549 = 13.0625 BTC [+]	[22:27]
mircea_popescu	what's next, you know, ima negrate trump for not voting kanish or w/e that ohio derp's name is.	[22:28]
mircea_popescu	(and since we're on it, this important point seems perhaps lost and is still paramount : "It is important to remember that the score associated to a relationship does not mark the direct trust of the scorer for the scoree, but merely the scorer's confidence that the information he has about scoree is correct, accurate, relevant and complete. All four." from the ever-fascinatingly counterintuitive http://trilema.com/201	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	4/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/#footnote_4_53927 )	[22:32]
assbot	Page not found on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UcrIay )	[22:32]
*	dbclk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)	[22:32]
mircea_popescu	which is how and why chetty's passing bumped her trust in my eyes to 10 : not because she's "very good" now, but because she lacks any further capacity to surprise anyone. at least so goes the logic.	[22:33]
solrodar	bbl, will keep an eye on the logs	[22:35]
*	solrodar has quit (Quit: Page closed)	[22:35]
*	adlai catches up on 6mo logs, should take Two Weeks(tm)(s)(r), give or take a halving~~	[22:36]
mircea_popescu	at least is better than waiting in traffic listening to dayradio.	[22:37]
BingoBoingo	The problem to selling in a way that maximally recoups value is my chief barrier to bidding. Hard problem I have little experience or connections to do.	[22:40]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432774 << forget me. suppose tomorrow someone decides that you now like government cheese. what, this makes you ~like it~ ? government can have no such say, no matter how much you love lenin's own republic.	[22:40]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:02:38; asciilifeform: jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf	[22:40]
mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo every day we discover another planet the republic must build eh ?	[22:41]
mircea_popescu	moreover, and more importantly, if you give over to the government the franchise to interpret private agreements, you provably construct a government even more far reaching than the welfare state, sitting in ~an equivalent position of the miner cartel but for contracts, and soon to issue "licenses to contract" or somesuch insanity.	[22:43]
BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Seriously. I have suspicions on how this could be done, but... given the necessary ugliness in this sort of brokering solrodar's bid seems awfully cheap.	[22:44]
mircea_popescu	(perhaps this is obivous to me only for some god-forsaken reason, but the next step after the view on the bitcoin protocol that it permits miners to arbitrarily reject txn and the collusion of miners is - you gotta get a license to bitcoinate. why hardfork to increase their revenue, even.)	[22:44]
mircea_popescu	(and this being future china, you'll be getting six addresses or somesuch, typed out on paper. with misprints.)	[22:45]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432775 << sadly there is no safe, cheap and effectual substitute for actual life. all previous attempts to build this philosopher's stone (of which there's been no shortage) have come to grief.	[22:47]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:02:48; phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?	[22:47]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432777 << and to think, in the worlds very capital of "murder for hire" even!	[22:51]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:03:36; asciilifeform: phf: sadly this is prolly how it will go. at least no mexican ice pick is yet involved.	[22:51]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432792 << perhaps the darkest voodoo involved in all of this, and one which i openly confess i struggled with for the entire interval and never managed to even comprehend let alone do a iota towards breaking was - that there seemed to be ~infinite ammount of bitcoin ready to COVER bets, but very little interest to fund them. somehow, for some reason, even with the strict	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	knowledge that you can drop 1, 10 or 1000 bitcoin on an arbitrary proposition and be covered fairly, people did not wish to do so!	[22:54]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:16:41; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	it STILL boggles my mind that this was the case ; but the case it was. and weren't it the case - bitbet'd be to this day and forever swimming in a pool of dough.	[22:54]
mircea_popescu	because yes, the thing as it worked is STILL a major improvement over traditional gambling anything, and there's no sane reason i could possibly see that bitbet wouldn't carry a majority of the world's 10bn to 1 trn dollars worth of yearly prop betting.	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	i have nfi, but it was a very bitter thing.	[22:55]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432786 << the very discussion, perhaps.	[22:57]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:13:56; asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me what the folks in the dispute actuall want.	[22:57]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432795 << in this perspective, that it did last 2012-2016 is quite the fucking divine intervention / pinnacle of human achievement, huh.	[22:59]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:17:09; asciilifeform: given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit.	[22:59]
mircea_popescu	!s "we were younger then"	[23:00]
assbot	0 results for '"we were younger then"' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=%22we+were+younger+then%22	[23:00]
mircea_popescu	awell.	[23:00]
*	BingoBoingo wonders what if any L1 or L2 interest in bidding for BitBet software/domain is out there	[23:01]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << not everything can always be valued. you understand this, yes ? the market, as well as the central planning committee and all sorts of other arrangements (such as - organised religion) exist in an attempt to resolve the "zero-infinity" problem.	[23:07]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies	[23:07]
mircea_popescu	they get good results in different fields but a) they're alwyas approximations and b) none of them even cover the whole field - not in the sense of being close but in the sense of EVER OFFERING a value function that may take any inputs.	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	so, like it or not, it is still very much a research project for the human race.	[23:08]
mircea_popescu	trinque's very basic notion above about "categorically your time" thing is just an axiomatic (if erroneous) pillar supporting one of these methods.	[23:09]
mircea_popescu	and yes - for as long as pick one and you carefully sit under its umbrella, never leaving that domain "it works for me!". except we're in bitcoin specifically to see what's out there.	[23:10]
mircea_popescu	one should prolly look through eulora logs for some lulzy examples re the failure of the auction - the free market's revered, holy relic of a chief tool. guess what ? it... doesn't work!	[23:11]
mircea_popescu	(none of this is to say that one ~oughtn't~ try. sure, one ought to try. but also understand that this is exactly like "one ought to try and fuck every woman that can walk within his visual radius". in a veeeheheheheeery theoretical principle, sure. in practice - there is such a thing as penis friction blisters.)	[23:14]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432813 << this view i share.	[23:16]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:21:59; asciilifeform: bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none.	[23:16]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432816 << it is not mircea_popescu 's call to make.	[23:17]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:23:52; asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.	[23:17]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432824 << suppose instead of runnign off to some sort of centralism, you just use the tools available ? they're here for this purpose ; you've seen them at work. gossipd didn't come out of the void, but out of practice based on philosophy honed with practice built on philosophy and so on and again numerous iterations over the years.	[23:19]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:26:03; phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.	[23:19]
phf	mircea_popescu: jurov pointed out the error of my ways, but i believe that i might've accomplished what i was fumbling for already	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	ytou'll have to excuse me, i run parsed not compiled logs.	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	incidentally, what's the consensus of code wizards, compiled >>> parsed ?	[23:20]
mircea_popescu	(in the general, not re logs)	[23:21]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432845 << i dunno that this is factual, but w/e.	[23:26]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:17; asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.	[23:26]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432848 << for the record, this is a lot weaker than it seems, for reasons discussed but perhaps worth repeating : it is so trivial to transform all txn into a high/low-S of one's choosing, that there exists no actual barrier due to it.	[23:27]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.	[23:27]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432859 << i dunno that every bit of historical item that is no longer as useful as it was is automatically an oversight. but sure, we can entertain that view, perhaps it is informative.	[23:28]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 21:47:54; asciilifeform: phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.	[23:28]
*	paxtoncamaro91_ (~paxtoncam@unaffiliated/paxtoncamaro91) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:30]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432873 << how's the 75 arrived at ?	[23:31]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 22:07:26; phf: jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.	[23:31]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432885 << possibly. in truth, nobody but they involved can call the actions either overreacting or not. that's why people got noggins, to judge their own actions.	[23:33]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.	[23:33]
phf	mircea_popescu: 50% non-transferable shares split between owners, about 301btc in profit?	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	ah yes, there is that. true, true.	[23:33]
mircea_popescu	ironcally, bitbet is not merely "a sure thing" - it's the only actually profitable, legit bitcoin business to date. THE ONLY.	[23:34]
mircea_popescu	tho eulora is slowling clawing itself from underwater. but the usual vc crapolade is nowhere near bitbet, or where bitbet was in its first month.	[23:35]
*	paxtoncamaro91_ is now known as madpax	[23:39]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432938 << i lulzed.	[23:43]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 22:59:52; mats: asciilifeform: 'SuperH'	[23:43]
adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-03-2016#1418943 << "i don't know i was very drunk at the time" (not trademarked, iirc i didn't even get liner note credits)	[23:43]
assbot	Logged on 01-03-2016 13:49:06; mircea_popescu: "noisehole, bullshitter, blowhard, drunkard, sadist, rapist, all-around disgrace to the sad sad State of Bitcoin (and a passive-aggressive plagiarist, too, to top a cherry on the shit-pan-kake!)" da fuck did you do adlai !	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	"superb how". freudian slip of all time, alf would like a workable dasmer.	[23:43]
mircea_popescu	lmao what!	[23:44]
mircea_popescu	specifically - who did you hurt for pleasure and what text did you steal.	[23:44]
adlai	i hurt my 'reputation', for my own pleasure (and that of lurkers), and got the private keys stolen from under me fingers. oh well.	[23:45]
*	adlai finds that he has nothing further constructive to add to the bitbet receivership saga; wishes mircea_popescu and kakobrekla best of luck resolving it in shareholders' best interests.	[23:45]
adlai	and 'solrodar' too, who has bigger balls than... who knows, maybe she wears them on her chest	[23:46]
mircea_popescu	wait, solrodar is a chick ?	[23:46]
adlai	i dunno, we're all a bunch of text here, except for the chicks that get their nickles one dime at a time	[23:47]
*	adlai for once, shuts himself up, to go sleep. putting preorders for morning popcorn, please keep the logs a-churnin (but do read them, too many idiots showing up here asking for summaries as though people are paid to write them)	[23:48]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1433012 << quite so. there's a time for everything, and the time for that came and went. it will have to be resolved in the way things are resolved that don't get resolved otherwise.	[23:48]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 23:25:56; kakobrekla: anyway imho it would be best for everyone for this mess to be cleared by me and mp - however while im making myself available in full capacity it seems to me mp is unwilling	[23:48]
kakobrekla	i dont see where time went but if you say so ... i cant do it alone.	[23:51]
assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19219 @ 0.00042487 = 8.1656 BTC [-]	[23:52]
*	The20YearIRCloud (uid38883@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhbwgnswppixakqf) has joined #bitcoin-assets	[23:53]
mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1433034 << the devs are people residing in this channel in the first place.	[23:54]
assbot	Logged on 14-03-2016 23:45:07; humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?	[23:54]
phf	i thought you guys used a valley startup to build it???	[23:55]
mircea_popescu	wait what ?!	[23:56]
phf	like one of those ben_vulpes shops, $300k bezzle a website	[23:57]
mircea_popescu	im thoroughly confused.	[23:58]
mircea_popescu	no, bitbet was, at least the first incarnation, shivad together by kakobrekla in... whatr was it, two weeks or something, i don't recall exactly.	[23:58]

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